How to Shut Down Gaslighting Without Escalating

One of the most powerful weapons in difficult conversations isn’t yelling, insults, or aggression — it’s confusion. In this episode, I break down how confusion gets weaponized to avoid accountability, derail clarity, and exhaust you into giving up. You’ll learn how to spot when confusion is genuine versus strategic, and exactly what to say to regain control, slow the conversation down, and protect your clarity without escalating the conflict. Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 40% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Monarch Money. 50% off your first year at https://monarchmoney.com/jefferson BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my new book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon Fall Drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's Fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 0:30Jefferson Fisher?

  One of the biggest weapons that I see used in conversation isn't what you think it'd be. It's not name-calling, it's not raising your voice, it's not interrupting. It's confusion. If you've ever been in an argument or a hard conversation, and you got to a point where you're thinking, "How in the world did we get here? I have no clue what we're talking about. I have no clue what's happening. What in the world is happening?" More often than not, that's not by accident. It's by design. The goal was to confuse you. Confusion as a weapon. How to spot it and what to do. Ready? Let's go.

• 1:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tools to improve your communication, I'm going to ask that wherever you're listening, please click the button that says subscribe. It really makes a difference to me and my family. And in exchange, I'm going to make you a better communicator when you listen to these episodes. This podcast is sponsored by Cozy Earth. Matter of fact, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm actually wearing Cozy Earth. And I sure am. I didn't even plan this. I'm wearing their pants. They're not sweatpants, but they are cozy. You might be asking, Jefferson, is it cozy? Yes, they are cozy. I am a big fan of Cozy Earth, because everything they have is top-quality stuff, and it feels good.

• 1:57Jefferson Fisher?

  And I'm at a place where I go, "If it looks great, cool. But does it feel good?" That's what I get with Cozy Earth. You can go to cozyearth.com/Jefferson, use the code Jefferson, and you get 40% off. I cannot believe I'm wearing a Cozy Earth shirt. cozyearth.com/Jefferson, use the code Jefferson to get 40% off. And now, back to the episode. Weaponized confusion is one of the most frustrating things that I run into in conversation, or what I run into in my day-to-day. When I'm deposing a witness... And they know that I have documents. They know that they're under the gun, under the microscope, so to speak. They are looking for any exit that they can, not to be held accountable, more often than not.

• 2:41Jefferson Fisher?

  And what I find, what I get back often is confusion. Meaning, what do you mean? Why would I do that? What are you talking about? What? Like, I ask you a very simple question. Did you do this? Did you do that? And the question is answered by another question of, what do you mean? Well, how do you? What makes you say that? Things that you know good and well, it's smokescreen. It's fog. It's not meant to bring clarity to the conversation. It is a tactic. It's a strategy.

• 3:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Now, let me put this out from the very beginning. I'm not saying that when you become confused in conversation, something is wrong. I'm not saying that you and your, your wife, your husband, your spouse, your partner, whatever, that when there are moments of actual confusion and you're, you're upset and you're just, your head is in your hands, you go, I just, I feel really confused in this conversation. Does not mean that they're actually trying to confuse you. There are people who pick it up and use it as a weapon to avoid accountability. And there are people that it is part of it. So how do you know the difference from the outset of those who use confusion to weaponize it as a, as a tactic and those that are genuinely confused? Here's how you tell.

• 4:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Their intention to learn. Their intention, their willingness to learn, willingness to be teachable. People who use it as a strategy have no interest in learning from it. They want to stay confused and keep you confused. They, they want to use it as, as you had a smoke bomb just to fill the room with confusion so that they can leave. You ever been in conversations where their whole objective is to get you frustrated enough that you just want to give up? That's the tactic, right there.

• 4:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Whereas people who are naturally confused, use it as a good thing. Hey, I'm confused. How does eight plus eight equals 16? I don't understand that. Can you explain that to me? Can you show me, connect the dots? I'm not, I'm not, I'm not getting that. It doesn't make sense. So let me ask some follow-up questions. So that in the future, this isn't going to be a hurdle for us, a hurdle for me. I'm going to understand where you're coming from. When you say this, this is what you mean. Big difference. Is there an interest? Is there a willingness to learn? That's how you know if confusion is used as a weapon or not. Second of all, how do you spot the wrong side of confusion?

• 5:23Jefferson Fisher?

  How do you, how can you spot it when somebody's trying to weaponize confusion to you? Number one, they talk in circles. They talk in circles. We find the conversation always comes right back to the main point. Like you're playing Monopoly. You just collect go and there you are. It always comes back. Number two, they like to use vague phrases, vague words, vague timelines. For example, they might say something vague like, it's just common sense. It's just, it's just common sense. I can't explain this to you. You're just not going to get it. Or they use vague timelines. I already told this to you already. We already, we've already been over this. When? Who knows? They're not going to tell you a specific time. They're just going to say, we already talked about this. So that means they're not willing to talk about it with you now.

• 6:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Why? Because they'd rather keep you confused in the past. Number three, they go immediately to the exit. They, they're looking for the door. How does that sound? They say, I can't. You know what? I can't right now. I just, I'm not. I just can't. Whatever that is. I cannot with you right now. But see, they could, when it came to scrolling on their phone, they, they could, when it came to buying that thing on Amazon, and go be with their buddies, go be with their friends, go do this and go do that. But they're not willing to engage in conversation with somebody they say that they want to have a relationship with. That right there is a sign to me that the confusion is not real. It is meant as a give up.

• 6:52Jefferson Fisher?

  It's a let me wave the white flag so that we can be done with this. That's giving up on conversation. That's not growth. Before we keep going, I want to take a second to tell you about Peak. The holidays are getting hectic. They're late nights, big meals, and too much coffee. Is that a thing? I feel like it can be a thing. I've been swapping some of my coffee for something that I know is better for me, especially when it comes to evening, when I want something, not necessarily water. I like to drink Peak. They have these tea crystals that are awesome. This holiday, while others are chasing the rush, find your sense of calm with Peak. Peak is a luxury wellness brand powered by rare plants and cutting-edge ingredients, offering the perfect remedy for the season's hustle and bustle.

• 7:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Their teas, the crystals themselves, are loaded with these probiotics, prebiotics, and postbiotics that support gut health, metabolism, and sustained energy. They're smooth, they taste good, they're rich, gives you a lot of steady focus without all the crash. Me personally, I like to sometimes drink one in the morning, but more often than not, I like to drink one late in the evening because I know coffee is what's going to give me that huge crash and mess up my sleep, definitely mess up my stomach. And so Peak is something that is easy to drink and keeps me clear-headed. Feel the holiday magic and unlock your healthiest glow with the most exciting offer of the season. 20% off sitewide for life plus a complimentary exclusive holiday bundle.

• 8:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Go to peaklife.com/jefferson. That's P I Q U E life.com/jefferson. Try it and glow from the inside out. And now back to the episode. So maybe you're asking yourself, all right, I get the three points. I get how people use it as circular talk. I see how they want to use vague concepts. I see how they just use it to. Have a King's X and say, I'm out of this conversation without actually engaging in dialogue. What do I do about it? Well, I'm going to tell you. When it comes to the circular dialogue, this merry-go-round that you feel like you're continuing to go on. What I have found most helpful in hard conversations is I will say, give me the headline. Can you give me the headline?

• 9:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Meaning, I'm going to ask the other person to, like a newspaper, give me the headline of what is coming up for you right now. Because we can have these big, major subjects. And then what happens is we get lost in all the details and then we're just fighting over details. And then one of us says always or never. And then, then it's all out the door and it's not, I don't ever do that. I don't always do this. Yes, you do. And before you know it, you are 10 miles off of the starting point of where you need to be. So how, how do I use headlines? When I ask, can you give me the headline? What I'm saying is, give me the head takeaway. So for me, let's put in, in a personal example.

• 9:45Jefferson Fisher?

  My headline might be, man gets mad when told what to do. Like that's more often than not, that's mine. I, I don't like to be told what to do, be pushed on somebody else's timeframe, when I'm not ready to do it right now. I just, I, I like to go at my own pace on things. That's me. So it's sometimes easier for me to give the headline of this is what's happening to me. Rather than getting into all of the, the details about it. Like we'll go through the details and ask questions and go back and forth, but give me the headline. So if you were to ask somebody, give me the headline of what you're feeling. People who are confused in the good sense will give you a headline.

• 10:30Jefferson Fisher?

  They'll say, I'm struggling with feeling like you care.

• 10:37Jefferson Fisher?

  And a lot of the times are just feelings. I am hurt by how you didn't ask how I was doing. I get upset when you don't want to have deep conversation with me. These headline statements that help clarify things and bring it really right up to the top. Because sometimes you need an umbrella to take over everything. People that are using confused as a weapon, they're not going to want to headline. They're gonna, they're gonna think it's stupid. They're gonna want to keep you in the details. They're gonna want to start poking about who's right and who's wrong. They're not gonna want to go above the surface with you.

• 11:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Sometimes you have to go up through the surface to take a breath and go, where are we going? Oh, wait, yeah, that's where we're headed. Like you have to climb to the top of a tree. Look, look through the forest and see where, where's, where are we going? Oh, now I have our heading. Now let's go to kind of reset yourself. Number two, what are ways that I deal with people who are trying to use confusion as a tactic? Another thing I like to do is I go through is this, are you saying these are facts? Are you saying this is a feeling?

• 11:49Jefferson Fisher?

  You're saying this is a fact or you're saying this is a feeling?

• 11:52Jefferson Fisher?

  What I find is that usually the more emotional the conversation is, the more it's about feelings. They're rooted in fear. Like I'm not, I'm not saying this is true. I'm saying this is a fear for me. That's what I typically hear. This is what I also say is I, I'm not saying that this is true or this is not true. My fear is giving me this feeling that we're never going to come out of this. That you're not going to want to be with me, that you're not really interested in this. And that you're going to not want to be in this relationship, whatever it is in your life. Whenever you voice things as a feeling rather than as a fact, there's far less chance

• 12:34Jefferson Fisher?

  of somebody being able to use confusion onto you and vice versa. To where they're trying to poke it as a fact. People who are trying to confuse, they, they usually like to stick more to facts that are just not true. And call it a fact, it's a, it's a fact that you, you don't really care. It's a fact, I told you about this already. And it's just not, that's not the reality. So they would much rather weaponize confusion.

• 13:05Jefferson Fisher?

  So that you stay in this perpetual state of what can I do to please you? What can I do to make you happy? How can I help you with all the materials? I find that that's something that can get people in a rut. If you have somebody in your life who likes to weaponize confusion, my guess is you know what it's like to try and pull out every trick that you have in the book to help them. Let me pull up the information, these documents. Let me try and help give you this specific example. Let me help try and pull this in. Don't you remember when we did this and you said this and you said this? And no matter what you do, what they say, they would much rather just stay. They don't want to actually be with you in the conversation. They're just wanting to act confused.

• 13:50Jefferson Fisher?

  What are you, what are you even saying right now? What are we even doing this for? And it's, it's hurting the conversation. I'm not saying I'm not guilty of it, that you're not guilty of it. I'm saying we're all, we've all been that in our life and we know how detrimental it can be when you try to perpetually stay in a state of confusion that will tank the conversation rather than have you walk through the conversation together. Number three, what I find, especially with the people that are saying, you know, I can't, I can't do this, is to get as detailed as I can. Slow it down. When I say, okay, no problem, let's, let's slow it all the way down, all the way down at your pace. Can we go at your pace? See, they're not gonna like that.

• 14:36Jefferson Fisher?

  When they're using confusion for bad, they're not gonna like when you say, well, then let's go at your pace. Most likely you're gonna see, you know what? I just, I can't, I'm over this, you know, what are we even doing? Using confusion as a smokescreen. If you slow it down at their pace, they really have no excuse. I'll go at your pace. What, what, what can I help with? And then I'll tell you what I need help with. When you just go like left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot, to go on through the conversation. Versus when you feel like you have to just give all the information, you get into over explaining. That can be a problem. To me, over explaining can be a source of true confusion.

• 15:19Jefferson Fisher?

  When you're giving me so much information, I don't know what to do with it. I don't know how to sift that much information. Right now, because you might be bringing up big things, important things, sensitive things that are nuanced in a lot of ways. And they're complex. Whenever you over explain, that can be a problem. So just watch out for that. What are we talking about here? Am I confusing you as a weapon? No. What I want you to understand is that in conversation, there are times when confusion is something that is used as a sign of here is where we can improve.

• 16:00Jefferson Fisher?

  There is also a place for confusion that makes sure that you will never improve. Because it is being used to strike you down. In law, there are legal concepts in case law that the phrase is to use as a sword and a shield. Meaning sometimes in legal principles, they'll try to use something in law as both a way to strike down something and also a way to shield themselves, that to say they're immune from it. Confusion is kind of that same thing. Might try to put you down. You're so confusing. And yet, when you try to clarify, they all of a sudden put it up and say, well, but I'm, I don't know, I'm confused. I don't understand.

• 16:42Jefferson Fisher?

  They're not really wanting to. They want their cake and eat it too, kind of thing. They want it both ways. They want everybody to be confused. So that's, that's the point here, is that just because somebody's confused does not mean that they truly are. They might just want to be out of the conversation. So watch out for that. Watch out for the people who do that. And it's usually a habit. You see it over and over again. Depends on the level of relationship. People that are quickly confused in the bad sense are people that are usually lower on the emotional intelligence scale. They don't have nearly the longevity to be in conversation longer with you.

• 17:25Jefferson Fisher?

  And that takes time and that takes growth. Just watch for that. Be careful of that in your conversations. Confusion as a weapon, from narcissist to gaslighters to toxic, to anything, to you and me and everybody who means it for good. It is not what you do with the confusion. It is your true intent behind it. Are you willing to use it to learn? That's how to handle it. As always, you can try that and follow me.

• 17:56Speaker 00

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon Fall Drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's Fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.