The Ghost Grizzlies of Colorado: Part 2

Wes tells the tale of a man who had one final grizzly bear attack before they disappeared from Colorado altogether. Watch here: https://youtu.be/vgQO1ueH9to ~~ Aura Frames: Exclusive $35 off Carver Mat at https://on.auraframes.com/TOOTH Promo Code TOOTH Miracle Brand: Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://trymiracle.com/TOOTH and use the code TOOTH to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. ButcherBox: As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free steak in every box for a year PLUS $20 off your first box when you go to http://ButcherBox.com/TOOTH Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to http://rocketmoney.com/claw today. Ollie Pet Food: Take the guesswork out of your dog's well-being. Go to http://ollie.com/tooth and use code tooth to get 60% off your first box! ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/c/toothandclawpodcast ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social: Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Wes Larson?

  Hey everyone, don't skip ahead because I have a podcast recommendation I've been wanting to tell you about for years. We finally get to talk about it. The Wild. The Wild is a series that is hosted by my personal friend, Chris Morgan. He gives you an up-close look at some really amazing, different wildlife species and how they're adapting to ever-changing environments and different threats that we are creating for them. Each episode is very well-produced. It's sound-rich, totally immersive. I really recommend this season's first episode about America's biggest cat, the jaguar, navigating the border between the US and Mexico. It's a really timely tale of two worlds where Chris and his producer, Matt, follow two different biologists, one from Mexico and one from the US,

• 1:13Wes Larson?

  to learn how this huge 30-foot steel wall might be affecting jaguars that are trying to expand their range across the border. There's other great stories this season. They talk about the comeback of humpback whales to the shores of British Columbia, the story of how hummingbirds are surviving in a brutal Arizona desert. It's just a really amazing show with some impressive sound design that's super immersive and lets you feel like you're in nature, right in the comfort of your own home or car, or wherever you might listen to your podcasts. So yeah, you guys know from our show that nature can be dangerous, but Chris and I both believe that nature in its truest form is incredibly healing and powerful. And if you're looking for an opportunity to take a breath and reconnect with our natural world, listen to The Wild. You'll hear powerful stories of resilience in nature,

• 1:58Wes Larson?

  find hope in the most unexpected places, and learn what The Wild can teach us about ourselves and each other. You can listen to The Wild from KUOW in Seattle and Chris Morgan Wildlife. New episodes available every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:25Jeff Larson?

  Hello everybody, welcome back to Tooth and Claw Podcast. This is a part two episode, so you don't need too much of an introduction. We have our bear biologist Wes Larson, I'm his younger brother Jeff Larson, and we have Mike Smith, who, thanks for driving out to Montana just to watch Lord of the Rings and then driving back to Utah.

• 2:47Wes Larson?

  My pleasure. Thanks, Mike.

• 2:49Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, it was a fun old time. I slept through the entire third movie again. Kind of my new tradition.

• 2:57Wes Larson?

  I dozed off a little bit.

• 2:58Jeff Larson?

  I can't hang for all three in a row.

• 3:01Wes Larson?

  Uh, as Jeff mentioned, this is part two of a two-parter, Ghost Grizzlies of Colorado. But we do have a couple of things we gotta talk about before we start the story. First of all, there has been a lot of bear stuff in the news lately. There's been a lot of news coming out of Japan that we're definitely gonna talk about soon. And then one that I wanted to talk about on today's episode is there's a particularly scary attack in British Columbia on a group of 11 people, most of them children. Two of those people were critically injured by this bear, a grizzly with cubs, and two were seriously injured. So, um, you know, we talk about grizzly attacks a lot on this podcast, we're gonna talk about one today.

• 3:44Wes Larson?

  And there are things you can do to prevent them or to really make yourself a lot safer. But those things aren't foolproof, so things like being in groups. Some, there are a couple data points out there of people being attacked in groups, uh, or using bear spray. And, you know, these people did just about everything right and they still had a terrible experience. And that's just part of living in grizzly country, but we definitely are thinking of them, our hearts go out to them. Because it's in British Columbia, the board that I sit on, the Grizzly Bear Foundation, they've been doing a lot of work to get messaging out, to contribute, to do whatever they can to help. So I've been helping with those decisions and... Yeah, a really sad attack, one that we'll talk about more in our news episode, but just wanted to bring it up because a lot of people have mentioned it.

• 4:28Mike Smith?

  Yeah, it's tough. Tough to hear.

• 4:31Wes Larson?

  We'll link the GoFundMe in our notes. And then later, I'm gonna do a game that might make me have to chip in some money to that one, which I would love to do anyway.

• 4:42Wes Larson?

  And then a quick correction corner, in our last episode, I kind of, I fell prey to a thing that a lot of people do, which is talking about some of these indigenous tribes in kind of the past tense, even though they're still around. And I talked a lot about the Ute people and their beliefs about grizzly bears and how much of a huge respect they have for grizzly bears. And I used a lot of past tense. Someone rightfully called us out on it, and I did want to bring it up because they are a people that are still very much involved in conservation where they live. And tribal conservation groups do a lot of really impressive work. So, just so everyone knows, we do understand that, and sorry that I did something that a lot of people do that doesn't make it right. So, yeah. Anything else we need to correct?

• 5:28Jeff Larson?

  Mom says she didn't give out her Patreon account to people.

• 5:32Wes Larson?

  Okay. She was very clear about that.

• 5:37Jeff Larson?

  I was trying to make her sound generous, you know?

• 5:40Wes Larson?

  Yeah. There's just no, no making her happy, I guess.

• 5:46Wes Larson?

  She's like Mike with TSA workers.

• 5:49Mike Smith?

  Incredibly selfish.

• 5:50Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 5:51Mike Smith?

  Me and, me and lasagna, more like. I'm not giving that out to anybody. You kidding me?

• 5:56Jeff Larson?

  That's the best looking lasagna ever.

• 5:58Mike Smith?

  It was Jeff. You have no idea how good that lasagna was.

• 6:03Jeff Larson?

  I loved your mom.

• 6:04Wes Larson?

  All right, are you guys ready for part two of Ghost Grizzlies of Colorado?

• 6:11Jeff Larson?

  Yes.

• 6:13Wes Larson?

  Doesn't sound like you guys are ready at all.

• 6:16Mike Smith?

  I was, I was ready like two weeks ago. This has been like a tantric two parter for me. I've just been standing on that edge.

• 6:23Wes Larson?

  Edging. Yeah, we did kinda have a week break. So again, one of the main sources that I use for this series is this book, Ghost Grizzlies by David Peterson. Does the Great Bear Still Haunt Colorado? It's a great book that goes through the history of grizzlies in Colorado and their potential future. And it talks a lot about the attack we're gonna talk about today. I also used a lot of online resources.

• 6:47Jeff Larson?

  A little bit of a misleading title, though.

• 6:50Wes Larson?

  Yeah, yeah, they're not actual ghosts. Yeah.

• 6:53Jeff Larson?

  He was trying to get like some people who care more about ghosts than wildlife to read his book, too.

• 7:00Wes Larson?

  And we're using it too, to get people to listen to these episodes. So.

• 7:04Mike Smith?

  It's also a weird title because it's just a yes or no question. So he could just say yes and be done with it, or no.

• 7:11Wes Larson?

  Just one word.

• 7:13Mike Smith?

  That's true. That looked like there are a lot of pages left to go.

• 7:15Wes Larson?

  There are a lot of words.

• 7:16Jeff Larson?

  We called it, we called it Ghost Grizzlies, huh? We're guilty of the same thing.

• 7:22Wes Larson?

  Yep.

• 7:22Mike Smith?

  Yeah, we're sensationalizers.

• 7:24Jeff Larson?

  Well, it starts out, this ghost was following a beautiful young woman, and the ghost is a bear.

• 7:34Wes Larson?

  That's, sure.

• 7:36Mike Smith?

  That's scary.

• 7:37Jeff Larson?

  I just wanna cover our bases.

• 7:39Wes Larson?

  Yeah, we're covered now. Uh, the other article that I used pretty extensively was from Outdoor Life. It was written by our victim today. And that article is called, I Killed the Last Grizzly in Colorado by Ed Wiseman. Spoiler.

• 7:54Jeff Larson?

  Mike, paranormal activity, but the ghost is a bear?

• 7:58Mike Smith?

  I don't think you'd make a difference.

• 7:59Wes Larson?

  Paranormal activity is not a ghost, guys. It's a demon, and that's what makes it scary.

• 8:06Wes Larson?

  Demons can't be ghosts? Uh, I don't think so. I think they're different. Their Venn diagram doesn't? Nah, I don't think they interlap. Overlap? Nah, or overlap, interlap? Boy, we're off to a rough start.

• 8:20Mike Smith?

  I wish I were in her lap.

• 8:22Wes Larson?

  So, a quick recap from- The girl I was talking about?

• 8:25Mike Smith?

  Yeah, just walking through the forest lap.

• 8:31Wes Larson?

  Made her sound really pretty.

• 8:34Mike Smith?

  Her lap at least.

• 8:37Wes Larson?

  Oh, sitting in a lap is such a nice thing. Uh, quick recap, so, like we talked about, there's a great respect among indigenous people, and there still is, for grizzly bears, for a lot of other wildlife in this area. But then, once settlers arrived, there's a full-on war on grizzlies. That war was essentially a federal undertaking in the early and mid 1900s. And the last, in quotation mark, grizzlies in Colorado, were reported to have been killed in the early 1950s. But even after those bears were killed, multiple reports would trickle in from really reputable sources that they had seen grizzlies in the Colorado Rockies, especially in the San Juan Mountains.

• 9:18Wes Larson?

  Kind of crazy our grandparents were alive when there was grizzlies in Colorado. I know, and like Arizona and some other places, too. In 1979, Ed Wiseman was the kind of mountain man you'd probably see in a Hollywood movie. Years and years outside, spent around the elements, had made him look older than his 46 years, but they also made him stronger and more fit than men 20 years younger than him. He was born in the little town of Pueblo, Colorado, in 1933, and he had explored and guided in the San Juan Mountains for pretty much his entire life. After college and a year of graduate school, Ed decided to join the military for two years in the late 50s, and then he started work with the Colorado Division of Wildlife

• 10:01Wes Larson?

  and served as a ranch manager for an experimental wildlife station for three years. So, in 1960, and you might be wondering what an experimental wildlife station is, that would be like, a place where they're kind of testing what effects that ranching might have on wildlife and vice versa. I'm guessing that's what he was working at. In 1962, he quit work for the Colorado government and started working as a pig and poultry farmer, which is essentially what I'm doing these days, in the San Luis Valley, between the San Juan Mountains and Sangre de Cristos, which is actually the valley that Jesse lived in and worked in when me and her first started hanging out. Jeff, you've been there.

• 10:41Jeff Larson?

  Okay.

• 10:41Wes Larson?

  To that valley. Yeah.

• 10:43Jeff Larson?

  Sure. If you say so.

• 10:45Wes Larson?

  Yep, you've been there, I promise. We did some bison stuff there together. During that time, Ed had also started guiding people.

• 10:55Mike Smith?

  A little vague there.

• 10:57Jeff Larson?

  I remember that.

• 10:58Wes Larson?

  Putting our hands up there, privates?

• 11:01Mike Smith?

  No.

• 11:01Wes Larson?

  No, we actually didn't do that part. We kind of just chased them into chutes.

• 11:05Jeff Larson?

  Fence. Yeah. We did chase them into chutes.

• 11:08Wes Larson?

  Yeah. That was pretty much it.

• 11:10Mike Smith?

  Oh, interesting.

• 11:11Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 11:11Mike Smith?

  What'd you do? Were you on horseback?

• 11:13Wes Larson?

  No, I had to like run at a bunch of bison on the ground.

• 11:16Mike Smith?

  Oh, weird.

• 11:17Wes Larson?

  It was a little, it was intimidating, but they're, yeah, they're ranch bison, they're a little different.

• 11:21Mike Smith?

  Usually dogs do that, right?

• 11:23Wes Larson?

  I don't know. I don't think so. Maybe. Sure.

• 11:25Jeff Larson?

  Well, you don't think I got that dog in me?

• 11:28Mike Smith?

  I think you do. I was curious about Wes. Wes is more of a cat guy. He's got that cat in him.

• 11:34Wes Larson?

  I do love both.

• 11:36Jeff Larson?

  Dude, cats are scarier than dogs.

• 11:38Mike Smith?

  Both of them.

• 11:39Wes Larson?

  Both.

• 11:40Jeff Larson?

  A tiger?

• 11:41Wes Larson?

  During that time, Ed had also started guiding people on hunts in the San Juans. Those hunts often focused on elk, but he would also take people hunting for black bear and other critters. And by all accounts, he was a pretty professional and successful guide. One of those people that pretty much everything you read about him, from his friends, his family, his acquaintances, was overwhelmingly positive. So really, just when people talk about Ed Weisman, they do it in the fondest terms, from what I've learned, at least in my research. In early September of 1979, Ed is out archery hunting on horseback in the San Juans with a client when a big brown colored bear runs out of the tree line and stops on a dead snag

• 12:25Wes Larson?

  and glares at these two men on horseback. Ed remembers looking at this bear and thinking it looked strange for a black bear, but that he had heard tales of 500 pound black bears in the San Juans, and he had never seen one, and that was probably just what he was looking at. The bear ran away. These two men continue on their hunt, and at the time Ed had dismissed this bear as simply an odd looking huge black bear. But two weeks later, he would meet up with the same bear in that same general area, and he would realize just how wrong he had been.

• 12:57Jeff Larson?

  Wow.

• 12:58Wes Larson?

  So on September 23rd, 1979, Ed was out guiding with four different clients, all of them from Kansas. They'd been hunting elk for the better part- That's a coincidence. I think at least two of them were related, but...

• 13:15Wes Larson?

  They'd been elk, they'd been out hunting elk for the better part of a week, and the 23rd of September was the last day of the archery season. And one of the men, 25-year-old Mike Needery, hadn't seen any elk all week. So Ed had decided that he would personally guide Mike that day, and that they would ride about 11 miles to an area where he pretty much always saw some elk. Jeff, we rode horses for like 20 something miles this summer. 11 miles on a horse, that's not nothing, right?

• 13:48Jeff Larson?

  Not nothing. Not nothing at all.

• 13:50Wes Larson?

  No, you feel it. Yeah.

• 13:51Jeff Larson?

  In your knees.

• 13:52Wes Larson?

  In your knees. Rump. Other places, too. A little saddle sore. Yeah. So they leave after breakfast, and they start riding towards Ed's honey hole on a particularly beautiful, warm, bluebird day in the San Juans. And when they get to Ed's spot around 2:00 PM, they tie up the horses and they decide to hunt on foot, with the men splitting up to cover more ground. Oh, if you've ever seen a horror movie before, is that a good idea, Mike? No. No, don't. No. Don't do it. Stop. Get help. Split up to cover more ground.

• 14:24Jeff Larson?

  Oh, I thought you meant tying up horses.

• 14:27Wes Larson?

  Don't do that either, ever.

• 14:30Jeff Larson?

  In horror movies, they normally get out of their ties.

• 14:34Wes Larson?

  Horses.

• 14:35Jeff Larson?

  Like when you tie someone on.

• 14:36Wes Larson?

  Run off, yeah. Sure. Oh, the people do, yeah.

• 14:39Jeff Larson?

  So I'm guessing the horse is about to escape. They're all tied up, but they're about to get out.

• 14:45Wes Larson?

  Mike, did you and your siblings ever tie each other up?

• 14:48Mike Smith?

  No, I don't think that's a thing we did.

• 14:50Wes Larson?

  We did that a lot in our family. Like, a lot of tying up, like, seeing how long we could get the person before they, like, got untied.

• 14:59Mike Smith?

  Weird.

• 14:59Wes Larson?

  Once, I guess once, my dad had tied Cyrus up, like, really bad, and then hung him from the doorknob. And someone came over to visit, and they saw him.

• 15:11Wes Larson?

  What is going on? He's like, "I promised it doesn't, this isn't what it looks like."

• 15:16Jeff Larson?

  It was like, we would ask our dad, "Please tie us up." And we wanted to try to get out of the ties.

• 15:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 15:24Mike Smith?

  Odd proclivities in the Larson household.

• 15:28Jeff Larson?

  If you ever try to tie us up, watch out.

• 15:30Wes Larson?

  We'll get out.

• 15:31Mike Smith?

  Okay.

• 15:32Wes Larson?

  All right.

• 15:34Speaker 04

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• 16:35Wes Larson?

  So Ed's working through the meadows in the timber and he's looking for Mike. He's expecting him to see him also working along the edges of some nearby meadows, but he never sees him. So Ed walks back to where they tied up the horses to wait for Mike, but he never appears. They're hunting in a small, flat area that was surrounded by steep bridges, and there really weren't too many places that they could go. So Ed was really confident he would bump into Mike at some point, and he just decides to continue hunting and looking for elk. And he's not hunting to shoot an elk. He's just hunting to find them so he can put Mike onto them, because he really wants his client to get an elk. What he didn't know was that Mike had already bumped into another inhabitant of that area where they were hunting.

• 17:18Wes Larson?

  Mike had been quietly moving through the timber when he saw a large, tannish brown shape on the ground that made his heart beat really fast. After hunting elk for a week and seeing nothing, just about every large shape in the woods was starting to look like an elk. But as Mike raised his bow and looked closer at the large shape on the ground, he realized he wasn't looking at an elk, but a large sleeping bear. He watched the bear take in a few deep breaths on its daybed, and then he quietly backtracked down the canyon he'd come up and scrambled up the steep ridge, careful not to disturb this huge bear. He made a mental note that when he found Ed, he would warn his hunting companion to avoid that area.

• 17:59Mike Smith?

  How many different things is he confusing for elk at this?

• 18:02Wes Larson?

  Like, I will say, like, a big deer can look like an elk.

• 18:05Mike Smith?

  I guess, yeah.

• 18:06Wes Larson?

  A horse, a big bear.

• 18:08Mike Smith?

  A stump.

• 18:09Wes Larson?

  A stump. You ever see a stump, Mike? They can sure look like elk, let me tell you.

• 18:15Mike Smith?

  Not in my experience, but I'm not a stumper.

• 18:18Wes Larson?

  Well, you need to spend some more time in the mountains, I guess. As he walked away, the gentle wind ruffled through his clothes, covered in the sweat of a whole week of hunting in steep mountains. And the breeze carried that scent down the canyon toward the nose of the dozing bear. This was no 500-pound black bear, though. This was the last grizzly bear in all of Colorado. And as the scent from this intruder caught in the nostrils of this old female grizzly with worn down and broken teeth, she woke up from her nap and she snapped to attention. Just seconds ago, she'd been slumbering peacefully, but now she was ready to fight if necessary. Ed meanwhile had been searching for Mike and he had actually passed below the other hunter

• 19:00Wes Larson?

  as he walked up the canyon that Mike had been quietly trying to escape. It was about 5pm, he was rounding a bend with his compound bow at his side, when he heard a growl on the other side of the small flat that was dotted with pine trees. His blood ran cold and Ed looked up to see a 400 pound grizzly bear about 25 meters away in a full charge.

• 19:24Wes Larson?

  So Ed immediately realizes, Ed immediately realizes two things. First, this bear is cornered by a steep incline on one side, a cliff drop off on the other side, and a rock wall behind it. So he'd given it no other good option to escape aside from the direction he had come in. Second, this is no black bear. He was staring at the animal that he had heard all of the old timers talk about his entire life, but that had been wiped out of existence in Colorado while he was in college. He was being charged by a grizzly bear. And he didn't see it as an elk? He didn't, he did not think it was an elk.

• 20:01Mike Smith?

  It wasn't just like a stump rolling down the hill?

• 20:05Mike Smith?

  The stump, that does not look like a elk. Now that I think about it.

• 20:09Wes Larson?

  They can look like elk.

• 20:11Mike Smith?

  A stump look like a huge elk? I don't know.

• 20:16Wes Larson?

  Ed yelled but the bear was locked in and focused and kept charging toward him. She never broke her charge to stand or to bluff, but came straight in. Ed didn't even have time to knock an arrow in his bow or grab his hunting knife in his backpack, and all he managed to do was get his bow in between him and the bear, kind of like a shield, by the time she was a few feet from him. He shoved it toward the bear's face, but she charged right through and slammed into Ed at full speed, flinging him to the ground and his bow and arrows scattered all over the forest litter.

• 20:49Wes Larson?

  Like Miles Garrett. Just like Miles Garrett. Oh, I was about to say that. I'll delete it for my notes. Yeah.

• 20:58Wes Larson?

  Who's Miles Garrett? A football player. Football guy. Just runs people over. Yeah. And he plays for the Browns? Yeah. What are the chances? Love that guy. Brown Bears? Brown Bears. This guy's bow is all over the forest floor at this point. His bow and arrows. Uh, have scattered, yes.

• 21:20Wes Larson?

  And an interesting thing about this mauling is at this point, Ed reports his mind from going more like a video, like a movie playing, to like a series of snapshots. So when he looks back on this, he remembers these certain snapshots very clearly. But he doesn't, he can't like replay the whole video, if that makes sense. But he was able to piece it together. When the bear first made contact with them, he immediately rolled into the fetal position, curling into a ball and doing his best to protect his neck and his vitals. And this is, this at the time was the general information of what was given to people when it came to bear attacks. Curl up into a ball and play dead is what they said.

• 22:01Wes Larson?

  And that can work, but if the bear is enraged enough, which I think is the case with this bear, or if it's hungry, you're in a really bad situation then. So he also had his backpack still on his back and he had this fleeting hope that his pack would protect him enough that he would be able to survive this mauling. Bite the knife. Bite the knife, yeah, you never know. Or maybe if you had like a stick of dynamite in there, you know? Yeah. The bear would bite that. Would that blow up if a bear? Probably not, right? Definitely not. Okay, I don't know how that works. Doesn't nitroglycerin explode like in Sorcerer? Really bad. Ah, yeah, it would taste terrible. That's true.

• 22:44Wes Larson?

  So this bear almost immediately starts tearing into his lower right leg and it's ripping and tearing at it with its mouth. It shakes Ed's entire body like a dog with a toy. And I've really been thinking hard to come up with a better analogy than a dog with a ragdoll or a dog with a toy, but there just really isn't a better one. So I challenge our listeners to come up with something better than that. Just being shaken through the air quickly. A rhythmic gymnast with a ribbon? Sure. That's too graceful though. That's like too, I don't know. It has to be like violent. True. Okay. A bad one. Ed wasn't feeling any pain, but as the bear shook him by his leg on the ground,

• 23:24Wes Larson?

  he does remember the sensation of the skin on his leg getting very, very, very tight. And then the feeling and the sound of that skin ripping and tearing from this immense pressure, which is a detail I've never heard before from victims of like really tight skin. And then it gets so tight that it rips open because this bear was putting so much pressure on it. Periodically, the bear would drag Ed a short distance and then it would bite at his leg again. It's tearing his flesh and it essentially turns his whole leg from knee down to his ankle into hamburger. A raver with a glow stick. Yeah.

• 24:02Jeff Larson?

  An iceberg with a Titanic.

• 24:05Wes Larson?

  Oh, Wes. Just one collision and then sinking.

• 24:10Jeff Larson?

  I guess that's more the initial impact.

• 24:13Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I think, let's keep workshopping that. Miles Garrett with Mason Rudolph. Sure. Why don't, uh, why don't you guys just put a pin in that though? So you can hear the rest of the story.

• 24:27Jeff Larson?

  That was a good joke, mate. You don't know it?

• 24:30Wes Larson?

  I don't. So the bear then drops Ed's leg, quickly bites into his right shoulder twice. And when it does this, it's not ripping or tearing, but it's just delivering these deep, quick, penetrating bites. And in fact, these bites were so deep that later doctors would find puncture wounds that went completely through his shoulder. Wow. Yeah. And this is a big guy. I mean, he's not like-

• 24:53Jeff Larson?

  What does that mean?

• 24:54Wes Larson?

  It means that they, they could have like poked their finger all the way through these holes from one side to the other, if they had a super long finger. Bear teeth can be that long? The two canines met. Yeah. And they'd probably compress the shoulder enough that- Jeez. It then released its shoulder and started working on his leg again. And that's something I want people to remember about bear attacks. I think in popular media, we hear a lot about their claws and them like swatting someone and killing them or raking them with their claws. But really, the most dangerous thing when it comes to a grizzly bear is its mouth. They can do some pretty big injuries with their claws. But the true damage that a bear is gonna do is gonna be with its mouth and its weight. Those are the two like biggest tools that they really have. Okay.

• 25:40Wes Larson?

  What are, what are your guys' biggest tools?

• 25:46Jeff Larson?

  I was thinking of Louis Suarez when he said the biggest tool is his mouth.

• 25:52Wes Larson?

  Who, who's Louis Suarez? Is that another sports thing? Soccer.

• 25:56Jeff Larson?

  That would like bite people in the World Cup. You remember him?

• 25:59Wes Larson?

  No.

• 25:59Jeff Larson?

  From like Uruguay?

• 26:01Wes Larson?

  I remember Zedane headbutting that guy, but I don't remember. Yeah. Huh.

• 26:06Jeff Larson?

  My biggest tool is my brain.

• 26:10Wes Larson?

  I agree with that. Your brain just works differently, Jeff, and in a great, beautiful way, in my opinion. I think it's a great tool.

• 26:18Jeff Larson?

  Thanks.

• 26:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 26:22Wes Larson?

  Alright. The whole time, this whole time Ed had been hoping that playing dead would be enough to stop this attack. But as the bear started biting his shoulder again, he realized that there's a good chance he was going to die and that he needed to fight back. As this thought came to his mind, his eyes caught his spilled quiver of arrows and he noticed one of the arrows was lying within reach with the broadhead pointing toward the bear. So, when we talk about a broadhead, these arrows that, that hunters often use with compound bows, it'll be an aluminum shaft and then a broadhead arrow has multiple cutting blades. So it'll either have like just a flat one with two cutting blades or there'll be like another arrowhead set into it, so there's four sides.

• 27:07Wes Larson?

  And that's what this arrow looks like. It has four different cutting edges, razor sharp. And if you shoot an elk or something with this, that bow is gonna be powerful enough that the arrow is gonna go straight through. You're like aiming for the lungs or the heart and it's gonna go straight through. Unless it hits a big bony plate. Yeah. Just like a bear tooth in the shoulder. Exactly. Instinctively, he grabs this arrow in one motion. He rolls over onto his back and he brings the arrow up as hard as he could, slamming it into the bear's neck. This arrow is an aluminum broadhead again with four razor sharp cutting edges. And Ed slams it into the bear's throat so hard that he snaps the arrow in half. But this bear doesn't even flinch.

• 27:50Wes Larson?

  Uh, it just releases his shoulder and starts biting his mangled leg again.

• 27:54Mike Smith?

  That'd be like when Matt Barnes did the ball fake in Kobe's face and Kobe didn't flinch. But Matt Barnes actually threw the ball. And Kobe still didn't flinch.

• 28:06Jeff Larson?

  So this part of the arrow is just in the bear's neck now?

• 28:10Wes Larson?

  No, so, uh, yeah, so it is. The arrow broke in half and the front half of the arrow, the pointy end is stuck in the bear's neck. And this is an aluminum arrow that he broke in half. So he like used some real force and he didn't even realize that he had broken it when he did this. And then he also doesn't really remember pulling the arrow out of the bear. But he does remember a gush of blood coming out of its throat. And him suddenly holding this broken half arrow in his left hand again. While the bear's biting his right hand and then moves down to his left leg. And then again-

• 28:43Jeff Larson?

  So he pulls the arrow out?

• 28:45Wes Larson?

  He pulls it out of the bear and now it's just, he's lost one of the broadheads in there. So it's just a two, two cutting edges now, uh, like a typical arrow. And he's holding in his hand and again, he doesn't really remember doing this, but suddenly he's slamming the broken arrow into the bear again. This time further down on its body, closer to its heart.

• 29:07Mike Smith?

  And Wes is saying, he's saying aluminium for all you UK people.

• 29:11Wes Larson?

  Yeah, if you, if you live in the UK, aluminium. Jeff, will you say aluminium? Can you, you can do aluminium. Okay.

• 29:19Jeff Larson?

  That's my hardest word, alumumum.

• 29:21Mike Smith?

  No, come on.

• 29:22Wes Larson?

  You can do it.

• 29:24Jeff Larson?

  Alumumum.

• 29:25Wes Larson?

  There you go.

• 29:26Jeff Larson?

  Alumumum.

• 29:27Wes Larson?

  Nailed it. Now say, your hardest word is that island archipelago in Norway?

• 29:32Mike Smith?

  It's Valbard.

• 29:32Jeff Larson?

  I just forget that one, but it's not hard to say.

• 29:35Mike Smith?

  It's Aragon.

• 29:36Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Haragorn. We got in like six fights about that.

• 29:41Jeff Larson?

  In the movie.

• 29:42Wes Larson?

  They don't. Alright.

• 29:44Jeff Larson?

  They did.

• 29:46Mike Smith?

  Why would they? You can think about that, we'll talk later.

• 29:49Jeff Larson?

  Because that's how it sounds when you say it fast.

• 29:52Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Alright.

• 29:54Wes Larson?

  Alright, so the aluminum's broke. Yes, and he has pulled the arrow out, he slammed it back into the bear. He doesn't even really remember the second stab with the arrow. But he does remember seeing the arrow sticking out of the bear. And then a gush of blood from this old bear as she steps over him and walks a few yards to a large log. And then this old bear, the last guardian of the mountains in Colorado, laid down on a large log, put her left paw under her head, turned her head slightly to the left. And with her last breath, the San Juans lost their wilderness and their magic. And the last great bear was gone from Colorado. Nah, sad. Alright, don't worry, we're gonna get a little sadder in a second when I read you a passage from a book that usually makes me cry. Oh, good.

• 30:39Wes Larson?

  Alright, so, Ed knew he was in a lot of trouble, and his first thought was that he needed to get to the main trail as quickly as possible. What he didn't know was that Mike was only a few hundred yards away, and that he had heard some of the commotion of this attack. He was worried that his mangled leg wouldn't even be able to support his weight, but as he got to his feet, he was happy to see that he was able to walk. But the amount of blood that was spilling out of his leg quickly made him realize that he needed to get to help really quick. And he could feel the beginnings of shock setting in. He'd made it about ninety yards when he heard Mike yelling for him, and relief washed over Ed. So Mike appears not far away, and he had heard the growling of the bear and Ed's screams. And he figured the bear had killed Egg.

• 31:24Wes Larson?

  Egg? That'd be easy to kill. What is this, Anne from Arrested Development?

• 31:33Wes Larson?

  He figured the bear had killed Ed and dragged him away, so he was slowly approaching the area. Jeez. Slowly approaching. Oh, gosh. Slow, I'm hungry, I guess. Slowly approaching this area with an arrow knocked and ready to go. And when he saw Ed, he was already scared, already pale, but the sight of Ed made the rest of his blood drain out of Mike's face. Ed was covered in blood, and his leg was ripped to shreds. What did the egg look like? Probably broken. Yolk all over the place. Dead, super dead.

• 32:08Wes Larson?

  Alright. The two men used a small first aid kit to do their best to band. I'm gonna have a hard time not singing now, I need to reset here.

• 32:19Wes Larson?

  Trying to banana his leg? Yeah.

• 32:24Wes Larson?

  I thought this was gonna be an emotional story.

• 32:28Mike Smith?

  Just imagine this forest floor. There's a bow all over. There's egg and bananas.

• 32:37Speaker 04

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• 33:06Speaker 05

  Ugh, I hate Mondays.

• 33:08Speaker 06

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite?

• 33:09Speaker 05

  Uh, Taylor Hansen? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.

• 33:15Speaker 07

  Hey, let's get back to work, please.

• 33:17Speaker 05

  But Taylor Hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites.

• 33:21Speaker 07

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• 33:23Speaker 06

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• 33:24Speaker 07

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• 33:28Speaker 08

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.

• 33:37Wes Larson?

  Alright, so they're doing their best to bandage some of Ed's more serious wounds and stem the bleeding. But both of them knew that Mike was gonna have to go get the horses while Ed waited. So they do their best to make Ed as comfortable as possible and Mike leaves to round up the horses and bring them back to Ed. This is late September in the high mountains of Colorado. So while it's a warm day, the night was guaranteed to be very, very cold. So as Mike runs back to get the horses, it starts getting pretty dark and Ed knew his fight for survival was far from over. You guys know that. When you're in the mountains at night, even in the middle of the summer, here in Montana, the high mountains get pretty cold at night.

• 34:17Jeff Larson?

  Oh yeah, windy. Well, I was just thinking about how you said Ed's never really had like a bad thing said about him or a bad review as like a guy. I think Mike could kinda light him up. Be like, "He made me get the horses. I didn't get an elk." "We stayed way too late." It's a good point. Yeah.

• 34:38Mike Smith?

  He'll drop down to like a 4.9 on Yelp or whatever.

• 34:43Wes Larson?

  I wonder what a hunting yelp would be called. Alright. So Mike returns with the two horses and they immediately catch the scent of grizzly bear everywhere and both horses rear back in panic and one escapes from Mike and bolts.

• 34:59Wes Larson?

  Mike brings the other horse over Freckles as close as possible, but Ed's condition had gotten much worse and he had lost a lot of blood. So when he stands up to try and get on Freckles, he loses consciousness and Mike catches Ed and lowers him to the ground. Ed comes back to, he stands up again and he tries again. This time, he's able to get his foot into the stirrup and he swings his mangled right leg over the horse and pulls himself onto the saddle. But Freckles again starts to panic when he catches the bear's scent as Ed kind of flops down on him. But Ed whispers in his ear and he immediately calms down. And as they move down the trail, Ed is kind of slumped over the saddle horn and Mike keeps looking back to check on Ed and he'd make him talk to him every once

• 35:44Wes Larson?

  in a while to try and keep him conscious. But Mike really didn't know where they were going. This isn't a guy that knows these mountains. So every once in a while, Ed would have to look up and give him directions. But he's having a really hard time not just passing out and riding the horses also making his leg bleed a lot more than it had before. And Ed says that he can't make it any further and that a helicopter would be able to land in that meadow. So he tells Mike, this is going to be a good place to stop. They'd only gone about one mile of the 11 miles that they needed to travel and Ed just knew he wasn't going to survive this journey. So he does his best to explain the route that would be easiest for Mike to get back to camp, which would involve leaving the

• 36:24Wes Larson?

  trail and crossing a ridge. And they knew it wasn't going to be super simple, but both men felt that Mike getting back to camp as quickly as possible would be the only thing that would give Ed a really good chance of survival. So Mike builds him a fire, but in his haste to get moving, he doesn't leave very much wood and he piles all of the extra clothes that they had on top of Ed and the two men go over Mike's route one more time. But Ed inside isn't that worried because he knows that Freckles knows the area better than anyone and that if Mike got lost, Freckles would still be able to find his way back to camp.

• 37:01Wes Larson?

  Almost immediately after Mike left, Ed realized they're short on wood and he does his best to conserve the firewood, but he soon decided that he would have to crawl to some nearby deadfall in order to keep this fire going. And this deadfall is only about 20 feet away, but it seemed like a mile. And when Ed got there, he managed to get another small fire going. But at this point, the wind had really picked up and the spot was really exposed and he's starting to get really cold. So he decides to climb under a thick pine tree and just pile all the clothes on top of him and get out of the wind because he knows that hypothermia is probably the most dangerous thing for him right now with all the blood that he's lost. About 3:00 in the morning, Mike shows back up alone and the other men, the other two men were still up on a ridge.

• 37:45Wes Larson?

  They'd all been looking for Ed. Mike had yelled at them that he found Ed, but it was a really hard ridge for these other two men to get down from and it took them about two hours to get down and get to Ed. And in the process, one of their horses fell off a 200-foot cliff. Which is pretty crazy.

• 38:02Mike Smith?

  What?

• 38:03Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 38:04Mike Smith?

  Oh, man.

• 38:05Wes Larson?

  Mike's dad is one of these other men. He's a medical doctor and he quickly surveys Ed's wounds. He says he doesn't think any of them are life-threatening on their own, but the hypothermia and blood loss were a real concern. The men had gotten a call out to rescue services. They lit a big smoky fire in the meadow to show the helicopter where to land and it finally shows up around 7:00 a.m. So at this point, Ed has been like over, over 12 hours mauled by this grizzly bear, waiting for help. This pilot, when he shows up, he's a Vietnam vet. He'd seen a lot of death, but when he sees Ed and his injuries, he quietly pulls the other men aside and says that he's not going to survive it, that they should just prepare themselves for Ed dying, that he had lost way too much blood.

• 38:48Mike Smith?

  12 hours, that's a little less time than we just spent watching Lord of the Rings. That's just way too long to be sitting there with-

• 38:56Wes Larson?

  That's a long time.

• 38:58Mike Smith?

  -life-threatening injuries and freezing cold.

• 39:00Wes Larson?

  Hamburger leg.

• 39:01Mike Smith?

  Jeff, you had to like sleep through a third of that. That's how long that was.

• 39:05Jeff Larson?

  I bet you Ed slept.

• 39:07Mike Smith?

  You think he slept a little bit?

• 39:08Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 39:09Wes Larson?

  Actually, he says that he did not want to go to sleep because he was worried he would not be able to wake back up. So he didn't sleep at all. Yeah.

• 39:17Jeff Larson?

  Oh, wow.

• 39:18Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 39:19Jeff Larson?

  You're right. That was hard.

• 39:20Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 39:23Wes Larson?

  Harder than the thing that we look forward to all year. Ed's loaded into the helicopter. He's flown to the nearest hospital in Alamosa. And the doctors immediately start working on getting his body temperature back up and working on his injuries. He'd lost almost three pints of blood in the mauling. His right leg had been broken in nine different places. And the muscle and tissue on that leg looked like it had gone through a blender. He also had puncture wounds on his shoulders and bites on both arms. He would end up spending thirty-one days in the hospital. But doctors would be able to save his right leg and he was able to walk again.

• 39:58Mike Smith?

  Dracula would have been like, "They come in pints?" when he saw that blood.

• 40:05Wes Larson?

  We really got Lord of the Rings on the break.

• 40:07Mike Smith?

  Yeah, sorry. We're getting it out of our system.

• 40:09Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 40:12Wes Larson?

  But this ordeal is far from over for Ed.

• 40:15Mike Smith?

  I don't know.

• 40:16Wes Larson?

  And what do you guys think? Why would, why would there still be a lot of hardship to come for him?

• 40:21Jeff Larson?

  Oh, you're a good storyteller, dude.

• 40:26Mike Smith?

  Why?

• 40:27Jeff Larson?

  The bear's ghost. The ghost bear.

• 40:30Mike Smith?

  Oh, my gosh. It was there all along.

• 40:35Wes Larson?

  He's about to be haunted by the ghost.

• 40:37Mike Smith?

  You set that up perfectly.

• 40:39Jeff Larson?

  Oh, wow.

• 40:40Wes Larson?

  In a way, that's true. So there was a fair amount of legal pressure that almost immediately was put on Ed.

• 40:47Mike Smith?

  Oh.

• 40:47Wes Larson?

  He's a professional hunting guide. He'd killed a protected species that was the last of its kind in that region. So almost immediately, the federal government launches an investigation, just like three days after the attack. They collect this dead bear a few days later. And although a significant amount of spoilage had already happened, they were able to find two wounds in the bear that were pretty consistent where Ed said he had stabbed it. The first wound was in the throat. That wound was thought to be superficial and caused by a four-bladed cutting instrument, so the broadhead arrow. And the second wound had hit the aortic arch in the lungs. It was thought to be the fatal wound and it had been caused by a double-bladed, flat-cutting instrument.

• 41:33Wes Larson?

  So because they saw that there was two different types of arrows used, this caused a lot of suspicion for these investigators. Like he was hunting it. They thought, yeah, they thought the story of a guy killing a 400 pound grizzly bear with a broken arrow was crazy. And they thought what Jeff just said, a second hypothesis was made that maybe he had fatally shot this bear while it was sleeping. And then it charged and attacked him and he had made the throat wound while he was being mauled by the bear before it died. So the, the stabbing was while he was being mauled, it didn't really do anything. The thing that had actually killed the bear was what had also enraged it was their hypothesis.

• 42:14Wes Larson?

  It's a pretty good hypothesis. It's one that really holds a lot of water when you look at this carcass and everything.

• 42:21Wes Larson?

  So what they do is while Ed's still recovering, they make Mike take a lie detector test, which he clears. And then they simply had to wait until Ed was healthy enough to take his own lie detector. And they waited six months and then when Ed was finally feeling like totally healthy, he takes a couple of different polygraphs and he clears them all. And I think in today's world, we know that polygraphs are very flawed. They're not usually admissible in court. But at that time, they were like, they thought they were pretty ironclad. I kind of went back and forth on this. I read a lot about it. And when I first was reading it, I was like, you know what? He probably did shoot this bear. And then made up this story and that's why he was kind of like, oh yeah, suddenly my brain turned into photographs, you know?

• 43:06Wes Larson?

  Like, I don't fully remember everything. And it just seemed a little too convenient and too crazy of a story. For the last grizzly in Colorado to have been killed by being stabbed with an arrow. But I do.

• 43:23Wes Larson?

  The more I looked into it, and also the author of Ghost Grizzlies, the more he looked into it, the more there seemed to be evidence that kind of backed up Ed more than anything. And I'm gonna go over a few of those things really quickly. First of all, the reason there was probably two different types of arrows is what I said earlier. Those blades on broadhead arrows come off pretty easily. Um, if they're pulled the way they're not supposed to be pulled. And it's very likely that somewhere up there in the gut pile that they left behind or whatever, there's an, an arrow head. You know, they just missed it when they collected the grizzly's carcass. And they didn't really look through it that well either, app- apparently like according to these, these reports.

• 44:07Wes Larson?

  And then the other thing that I think is some really good evidence for Ed is that where the fatal wound was, it looked like it was consistent with someone like stabbing upward into a bear. It wasn't like a shot that would have gone down into a bear. Like what would you have if you shot a sleeping bear with a bow and arrow? So the angle of that wound was very consistent with the position that Ed said he was in. And then the final thing, the final two things that I think are pretty convincing is that. Unless like the bear sleeps on its back. Um, yeah. Or up in a tree. But most bears don't do that. They almost always sleep. Healthier for your neck. That is true. That's very true. They should know.

• 44:53Wes Larson?

  The final thing that, the final two things I think are really convincing is with the compound bow and one of these broadhead arrows, unless you hit a major bone, the arrow's gonna go all the way through the animal. And a professional guide like Ed almost always would get his arrow to go all the way through. So the fact it didn't go all the way through is pretty convincing. And then also, I think this is the most, the best evidence in Ed's favor, is that just about everyone that knows this guy, including wildlife officials that knew him very well, said that he was an extremely ethical hunter. He did everything by the book. And that one of these game wardens said he had run into Ed dozens of times in the mountains and never had to write him a single ticket.

• 45:36Wes Larson?

  And for me, it's kind of like, if you have that history, that reputation, it seems kind of crazy that you would just take a pot shot at a bear that's sleeping in a meadow. That just doesn't seem like his character to me. So I tend to believe him.

• 45:52Jeff Larson?

  The other argument for him shooting at it, though, would be like, he kind of felt like there might still be grizzlies, right?

• 45:59Wes Larson?

  No, he didn't.

• 46:01Jeff Larson?

  Oh, okay.

• 46:01Wes Larson?

  Yeah, he had heard stories about him. Yeah, but he didn't think there was still grizzlies.

• 46:06Jeff Larson?

  Cause I was thinking like, maybe he'd want to just prove there's a grizzly.

• 46:10Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I think he would know that he'd be in a lot of trouble, though, if he shot a grizzly. I think most of these guys would understand that. So I kind of just like to think that this old bear-

• 46:20Jeff Larson?

  Well, maybe he killed it right away and then mauled himself with it.

• 46:24Wes Larson?

  Just grabbed its teeth and claws.

• 46:26Mike Smith?

  Yeah. That seems like the most likely.

• 46:30Wes Larson?

  That's probably what it was. Chucked his horse off a cliff.

• 46:35Mike Smith?

  Oh, that poor horse. That's like, kind of horrifying to think about. Listen, I don't wish harm upon anyone or anything. I just don't want them. I don't want them in my house.

• 46:45Wes Larson?

  Nolan, dude.

• 46:46Mike Smith?

  Except for Nolan. Oh, man. Oh, we're gonna rumble one day, me and that, that man.

• 46:53Jeff Larson?

  This is subscriber joke, I think. Forever. I'm confused right now.

• 46:59Mike Smith?

  All you need to know is I hate Nolan.

• 47:04Wes Larson?

  I kind of just like to think that this old bear knew that she was the last of her kind. And that she was gonna seal the fate of Colorado grizzly bears with the blood of her tormentors, you know? Just like, I'm gonna tear apart one of these dudes and that's gonna be it for us in these mountains.

• 47:22Mike Smith?

  One last stand.

• 47:24Wes Larson?

  So I was gonna spend a lot more time on kind of what the crux of the book Ghost Grizzlies about and this other book by Rick Bass. But I actually don't think it's all that interesting, even though it's the main focuses of these books. But basically, multiple expeditions. I just like, for me, like, searching for animals that probably don't exist in places anymore, isn't that interesting to me? It just doesn't really matter to me. Sometimes it is, but in this case it's not because I think all of these expeditions they launched afterward by different bear experts and enthusiasts and wildlife professionals. They've set out a bunch of traps after the smalling.

• 48:06Wes Larson?

  All of them were to try and learn if there was other grizzlies in the San Juans or the Sangres, and they didn't turn up any hard evidence. And they've done this, they did this for decades. And they, like, people would find tracks that they thought might be grizzlies or hair that they thought might be a grizzly's hair, but they never turned up any real tangible evidence of ghost grizzlies in Colorado.

• 48:28Jeff Larson?

  Oh, yeah. I remember too, I showed you that video of, like, those people were looking for that bird they thought was maybe extinct.

• 48:37Wes Larson?

  I love that.

• 48:38Jeff Larson?

  And then they ended up finding it and, like, the local guide started crying and you said, "I just don't think that's very interesting."

• 48:45Wes Larson?

  That's not true. If they do find it, I think it's very interesting, but I feel like. Pwned. I feel like almost always these stories are like, "Well, we didn't find anything, but we sure learned a lot in the process."

• 48:58Jeff Larson?

  Sure.

• 48:59Wes Larson?

  And there's multiple books about this. If you're into that sort of thing, which I don't think there's anything wrong with that, I really recommend these books. Ghost Grizzlies was really a fun read, but to me, it kind of just makes me feel sad when it's like, "Oh." Sure. "We had this animal for so long and we didn't really do much about it, and now that it's gone, we're investing all this effort into proving that it's still there." And it's kind of like, maybe that effort should have been used differently before.

• 49:24Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 49:25Wes Larson?

  I see.

• 49:28Jeff Larson?

  Listen.

• 49:30Speaker 04

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• 49:59Speaker 05

  Ugh, I hate Mondays.

• 50:01Speaker 06

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite?

• 50:02Speaker 05

  Uh, Taylor Hansen? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.

• 50:08Speaker 07

  Hey, let's get back to work, please.

• 50:10Speaker 05

  But Taylor Hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites.

• 50:14Speaker 07

  Taylor Hansen? Nice.

• 50:16Speaker 06

  Try one.

• 50:18Speaker 08

  Kings Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.

• 50:30Wes Larson?

  I'm gonna read you guys something sad and beautiful. I usually don't like to read a lot on the podcast because I don't like it when people read to me usually. But this is one of my favorite books. This is called A Sand County Almanac. It's by Aldo Leopold. Aldo Leopold was kind of considered the father of modern conservation in North America. And he was like a wildlife expert slash forestry official slash a bunch of other things. And he wrote this book about the early 1900s and everything that was happening to wildlife. And there's a chapter called Arizona and New Mexico. And there's a part of that chapter called Escudilla. And it's about the last grizzly bear in Arizona. And I just want to read it because I think it's really beautiful.

• 51:16Wes Larson?

  And I'm just gonna read a few parts of it, not the whole chapter, don't worry. "There was in fact only one place from which you did not see Escudilla on the skyline. Escudilla is a mountain, just so you know. That was the top of Escudilla itself. Up there, you could not see the mountain, but you could feel it. The reason was the big bear. Old Bigfoot was a robber baron, and Escudilla was his castle. Each spring, when the warm winds had softened the shadows on the snow, the old grizzly crawled out of his hibernation den in the rock slides and descending the mountain bashed in the head of a cow. Eating his fill, he climbed back to his crags and there summered peaceably on marmots, cones, berries, and roots. None of us ever saw the old bear,

• 51:58Wes Larson?

  but in the muddy springs about the base of the cliffs, you saw his incredible tracks. Seeing them made the most hard-bitten cowboys aware of the bear. Whenever they rode, they saw the mountain, and when they saw the mountain, they thought of bear. Campfire conversation ran to beef, bales, and bear. Bigfoot claimed for his own only a cow a year and a few square miles of useless rocks, but his personality pervaded the country. Those were the days when progress first came to the cow country. Progress had various emissaries." So he talks about kind of what progress was considered, about people coming and kind of ruining nature in the, you know, in the pursuit of progress. I'm gonna skip ahead.

• 52:39Wes Larson?

  One spring, progress sent another emissary, a government trapper, a sort of Saint George in overalls, seeking dragons to slay at government expense. Were there, he asked, any destructive animals in need of slaying? Yes, there was the big bear. The trapper packed his mule and headed for Escudilla. In a month, he was back, his mule staggering under a heavy hide. There was only one barn in town big enough to dry it on. He had tried traps, poison, and all his usual wiles to no avail. Then he had erected a set gun in a defile through which only the bear could pass and waited. The last grizzly walked into the string and shot himself. It was only after we pondered on these things that we began to wonder who wrote the rules

• 53:24Wes Larson?

  for progress. Since the beginning, time had nodded the basaltic hulk of Escudilla, wasting, waiting, and building. Time built three things on the old mountain: a venerable aspect, a community of minor animals, and plants, and a grizzly. The government trapper who took the grizzly knew he had made Escudilla safe for cows. He did not know he had toppled the spire, off an edifice, a building since the morning stars sang together. We forest officers who acquiesced in the extinguishment of the bear, huh, knew a local rancher who'd plowed up a dagger engraved with the name of one of Coronado's captains. We spoke harshly of the Spaniards, who, in their zeal for golden converts, had needlessly extinguished the native Indians.

• 54:09Wes Larson?

  It did not occur to us that we too were the captains of an invasion too sure of its own righteousness. Escudilla still hangs on the horizon, but when you see it now, you no longer think of a bear. It's only a mountain now. Which I think is really good. Yeah. Kinda long. No, that's great. Sorry, but it always makes me a little emotional, cuz it's like, that's the true story of the last grizzly killed in Arizona, and I do feel that way. I feel like, when you lose a grizzly from a place, it's just a place after that point. It's no longer a wilderness, it's no longer what it was before, it's just a mountain. And I love that chapter. Anyway, sorry, it was kinda long. Okay, so really quickly, I wanna go over the rise and fall, and then hopefully the

• 54:54Wes Larson?

  rise again of grizzly bears in the United States. So their historic range once took them all across the Great Plains. There are records of grizzly bears as far east as the western edge of Missouri. And they could also be found through Texas and down into northern Mexico. And this is like in the 1800s, early 1900s that this was their range. But at the same time that happened in Colorado, oh, sorry. The same thing that happened in Colorado happened in just about every other place the grizzly bears were found. Once settlers started showing up and colonizing the West. Grizzly bears were seen at the very least as bothersome pests. And in the worst case is ravaging monsters. So basically Colorado wasn't alone in their campaign to bring an end to livestock losses

• 55:39Wes Larson?

  and take over the best possible grizzly bear habitat. And one by one, states killed their last grizzly bear. And I don't have a date for all of those local extinctions, but here's, here's a few of them. So in 1890, the last grizzly bear was killed in Texas. In 1922, the last grizzly bear in

• 55:56Jeff Larson?

  When?

• 55:57Wes Larson?

  Uh, 1890, they shot the last one in Texas. 1922, the last grizzly bear in California was shot in the Sierra Nevadas. Jeff, still on their flag.

• 56:09Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 56:10Wes Larson?

  You got it.

• 56:10Jeff Larson?

  Got to get rid of that California.

• 56:13Wes Larson?

  1923, the year of the last verified grizzly bear sighting in Utah, the state where both of you live.

• 56:20Jeff Larson?

  I guess the whales has a dragon on their flag.

• 56:23Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's true. They killed all their tracks. Uh, 1931, the year of the last verified grizzly bear sighting in Oregon. 1933, the year of the last verified grizzly bear sighting in New Mexico. 1935, the last grizzly bears killed in Escudilla, Arizona. 1951, Colorado thinks they killed their last grizzly bear. In 1975, after a massive reduction in population, there's thought to be less than 1,000 grizzlies in the lower 48, which the majority are split between the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem in Wyoming, Montana and Idaho, and then the Northern Continental Divide Ecosystem in Western Montana. And because of this, their list is threatened on the Endangered Species Act.

• 57:10Wes Larson?

  So it's kind of the first thing in favor of grizzlies in most of our history. In 1979, the last grizzly bear in Colorado is actually killed by Ed Wiseman. 1983, the year I'm born, 10 years pre JP, in grizzly bear conservation in the lower 48 really begins in earnest with the formation of the interagency grizzly bear commission or committee. So that's kind of like the USGS, US Fish and Wildlife Service, all these different agencies working together to conserve grizzly bears. And after 42 years of very dedicated grizzly bear conservation efforts in the lower 48, we now likely have close to 2,500 grizzly bears in the lower 48, which is more than double the number we had in 1975.

• 57:55Wes Larson?

  And some of these ecosystems, like the Greater Yellowstone, are probably at their carrying capacity for grizzly bears. Jeff, you just mentioned yesterday to our cousin that recently a grizzly bear was seen just like a few dozen miles from Utah. And that's one of these Greater Yellowstone bears that's starting to spread back out into their historic range because that ecosystem has so many bears in it, which is really cool.

• 58:19Jeff Larson?

  Bring them back to Utah, you know? You never said Utah's date.

• 58:22Wes Larson?

  I did. Yeah. We did. It was 1923. It was the last one.

• 58:29Jeff Larson?

  So the grizzly's route was like Wyoming to Colorado then for a while.

• 58:34Wes Larson?

  Yeah, the Colorado population then was an island population. So they didn't really spread out.

• 58:40Jeff Larson?

  Cut off.

• 58:41Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Okay, I think it's a really good start. I think a lot of this conservation that's happened is amazing. I think we owe the great bear a lot, and I personally would love to see a future where these populations are connected. And grizzly bears are really given the opportunity to start anew in ecosystems like the San Juan Mountains where they have this really rich history and they belong on the landscape. So I'm really hoping for that someday. I hope that we have books that make me happy instead of make me sad about Grizzlies. And we do. We already do have that. Alright.

• 59:14Jeff Larson?

  Brother Bear. That's kinda sad too, though.

• 59:17Wes Larson?

  That is sad. That movie sometimes makes me cry as well.

• 59:21Jeff Larson?

  What's a happy bear story?

• 59:23Wes Larson?

  A happy bear story?

• 59:25Mike Smith?

  Winnie Winnie the Pooh is usually pretty happy by the end.

• 59:28Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Brother Bear's a happy story.

• 59:30Mike Smith?

  It just has its sad parts.

• 59:32Jeff Larson?

  Oh, no, that's sad.

• 59:34Wes Larson?

  No, it's happy.

• 59:35Jeff Larson?

  What happens at the end?

• 59:36Wes Larson?

  The the guy decides to stay a bear, but his brothers, they're all like, love each other and stuff and they see each other.

• 59:42Jeff Larson?

  His brother's dead.

• 59:44Wes Larson?

  His older brother is, but not his other brother.

• 59:48Wes Larson?

  It's I watched it for my birthday this year. No, I don't want Si to die. Alright. Any questions about part two of Ghost Grizzlies? Ed Wiseman's attack? Anything?

• 1:00:01Mike Smith?

  Some general questions.

• 1:00:03Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:04Mike Smith?

  If you were to hold a bear cub hostage at knife point, would that deter the mom bear from charging at you?

• 1:00:12Wes Larson?

  Do you think? No. No, it would not.

• 1:00:14Mike Smith?

  It wouldn't care at all?

• 1:00:15Wes Larson?

  No, I think you would very much be encouraging her to charge at you. Yeah.

• 1:00:20Jeff Larson?

  Do bears ever pretend to be asleep so that you get closer to them?

• 1:00:26Wes Larson?

  I don't think so, but I'm not sure. It's a good question.

• 1:00:29Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Jeff Larson?

  Where do grizzly bears, where'd you, that bear just slept in the middle of the meadow?

• 1:00:36Wes Larson?

  They usually have like day beds on the, kind of in areas that are a little bit more obscured, like on the edge of the timber. So it wasn't just like in the middle of a meadow, but it was on the edge in a little depression. Which we're all three in, you know?

• 1:00:51Mike Smith?

  Our little one, yeah. You said earlier that he dropped his bow and arrows all, it was just all over the floor of the forest.

• 1:00:59Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Mike Smith?

  I don't, I just, how many arrows did he have? Like a million? Otherwise, it wouldn't have really covered much of the forest floor in my opinion.

• 1:01:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I regret asking if you guys had any questions. You don't need to ask any.

• 1:01:14Mike Smith?

  Alright.

• 1:01:16Jeff Larson?

  Pippin have the right to look at the palantir because he is the one that found it?

• 1:01:22Wes Larson?

  I kinda think so.

• 1:01:24Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, I mean, at least tell him what it is.

• 1:01:27Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:27Jeff Larson?

  It's like, I found this.

• 1:01:29Wes Larson?

  Did some good.

• 1:01:30Jeff Larson?

  This is maybe the coolest rock I've ever found.

• 1:01:33Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Jeff Larson?

  And you're just gonna take it from me and not tell me why?

• 1:01:38Wes Larson?

  Also, like, Palantir corrupts people, kinda like the Ring does.

• 1:01:42Jeff Larson?

  Kinda like Palantir nowadays.

• 1:01:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah, like Palantir nowadays, but, but the hobbits are so pure of heart, that shouldn't they be the ones that use them? Like, I feel like the Palantir should be used by hobbits, if anyone.

• 1:01:56Mike Smith?

  Not all hobbits, though.

• 1:01:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's true. Pippin's pretty easily corruptible.

• 1:02:01Mike Smith?

  I think you just load Frodo up with every magical object in the realm. She's just carrying around everything.

• 1:02:06Wes Larson?

  Pippin just immediately is like, hey, Denethor, I will do whatever you want. I'm your guy. Just because your son died. Mary's so much better.

• 1:02:16Mike Smith?

  No, Pippin, he just, he's thinking four steps ahead. That's all he was doing.

• 1:02:21Wes Larson?

  All right, categories. Uh, first category is your favorite bow and arrow moment from any media.

• 1:02:28Jeff Larson?

  I'm gonna go with the cartoon Robin Hood, where he shoots the arrow through the center at the bullseye.

• 1:02:35Mike Smith?

  So cool.

• 1:02:36Jeff Larson?

  Where everyone's like, he can't beat that, and then he shoots.

• 1:02:39Wes Larson?

  That's a really good pick.

• 1:02:39Mike Smith?

  He's all dressed up like a stork.

• 1:02:41Jeff Larson?

  My first time ever really getting excited about a bow and arrow. I like that.

• 1:02:47Mike Smith?

  He's like no look shooting, too. He's so awesome in that scene.

• 1:02:50Jeff Larson?

  He's sweet. I feel like you should win, though, from that. Like, I think it's more of a tie.

• 1:02:58Mike Smith?

  Oh, you think?

• 1:02:59Jeff Larson?

  He hit the exact same center.

• 1:03:02Mike Smith?

  I think it's him shooting his own arrow, though.

• 1:03:04Wes Larson?

  Shoots his own, yeah.

• 1:03:05Jeff Larson?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:03:06Mike Smith?

  Do you know who's also a pretty good performer in, so Lady Cluck, when she's running across the field and she's like, goes into the football mode? And she's like stiff-arming and sidestepping all the rhinos?

• 1:03:16Wes Larson?

  Oh, yeah. And it's kind of like, has such a cool perspective from a cartoon from that age, yeah.

• 1:03:22Mike Smith?

  Man, that movie's, that movie rules.

• 1:03:25Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:25Mike Smith?

  Um, I'm also going with Robin Hood, but it's the Kevin Costner one, the Prince of Thieves.

• 1:03:30Wes Larson?

  Arrow POV.

• 1:03:30Mike Smith?

  At the very end, when he shoots the, the flaming arrow through the, or he kills the guy that's about, I think he's about to chop off Christian Slater's head.

• 1:03:38Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:39Mike Smith?

  Man, it's all slow-mo. They knew that's, they, they knew that that shot was sick, too, because they put it on like, the poster in the movie, front of the movie box and everything.

• 1:03:48Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:49Mike Smith?

  Okay.

• 1:03:50Wes Larson?

  I'm gonna pick a Lord of the Rings one. I'm gonna pick Legolas when they're in Khazad-dûm. And those orcs first, you know, are shooting arrows at him from the up above and you, I feel like it's the, one of the first times you actually get to see Legolas. Legolas is like proficiency with a bow. And you see the shot where it does the arrow POV like all the way into the orc's head. And I just really like that shot. And I feel like when those movies first came out, Legolas was one of the cooler characters and now he's probably my least favorite member of the fellowship, but still.

• 1:04:22Mike Smith?

  Really?

• 1:04:23Wes Larson?

  I love the arrow parts.

• 1:04:24Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Who's yours? Who would you say?

• 1:04:26Jeff Larson?

  I wrote fanfiction about Legolas.

• 1:04:29Wes Larson?

  Really? Yeah, I drew a photo of, or a drawing of him killing an orc.

• 1:04:34Mike Smith?

  Do you still have the fanfic, Jeff?

• 1:04:36Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:37Jeff Larson?

  I don't know. I could, I could look.

• 1:04:39Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:39Jeff Larson?

  Um, he kills a hundred orc himself.

• 1:04:43Mike Smith?

  A hundred. That's more than he does in Two Towers at Helm's Deep. That shot's weird though, because you follow it through and it pierces straight through the orc's head and then it

• 1:04:52Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:52Mike Smith?

  wedges into like a stone edifice.

• 1:04:55Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:55Mike Smith?

  You notice that?

• 1:04:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:57Mike Smith?

  Is the arrow just like going in through the stone and sticking there?

• 1:05:00Wes Larson?

  Maybe it like hits a crack. Yeah. Or he just shoots it so hard that it goes into the stone. I don't know.

• 1:05:06Mike Smith?

  Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

• 1:05:07Wes Larson?

  I always was frustrated that they didn't just sit there and shoot those like five orcs. Since he killed it so quickly, they like run and just take fire from him. It's like, maybe just kill all of them. But what do I know?

• 1:05:20Jeff Larson?

  I thought of one.

• 1:05:21Wes Larson?

  Nothing.

• 1:05:22Jeff Larson?

  Uh, in all that that I love a lot.

• 1:05:24Wes Larson?

  Jon Snow?

• 1:05:25Jeff Larson?

  Where it's, what's her name? The Stark wife. Caitlyn Stark?

• 1:05:31Wes Larson?

  Yeah, Caitlyn.

• 1:05:32Mike Smith?

  Caitlyn Clark.

• 1:05:33Jeff Larson?

  Like Caitlyn Stark. But when her dad dies and they like soak the boat in gasoline and, or like in fire stuff. Put it in the river.

• 1:05:43Wes Larson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:44Jeff Larson?

  And there's that old guy trying to shoot it with the fire arrow and he keeps missing.

• 1:05:48Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:49Jeff Larson?

  And then I forget who like just takes it over and like drills it for a shot.

• 1:05:54Wes Larson?

  It's her uncle.

• 1:05:55Jeff Larson?

  Super far away.

• 1:05:56Wes Larson?

  The Blackfish.

• 1:05:57Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, and it's like almost out of reach and he just Steph Curry's it.

• 1:06:03Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's a great, great scene. All right, uh, next category, if you could put grizzlies back in any state where they used to exist and and like the hypothetical here is they're going to do well when you put them back. Which state would you pick?

• 1:06:18Mike Smith?

  I can't believe you just have Legolas just squarely at the bottom, man. I don't like, I couldn't, I like them all way too much to even say that, but Legolas would be for sure ahead of like Mary Piven.

• 1:06:28Jeff Larson?

  I didn't say squarely, dude.

• 1:06:31Wes Larson?

  I didn't say squarely, I said, I think he's my least favorite right now. And I like Boromir a lot.

• 1:06:36Mike Smith?

  Boromir's awesome, but like you get three movies of Legolas and just that one with Boromir. And for the most part, he's throwing sticks all over the place.

• 1:06:44Wes Larson?

  So many scenes where like.

• 1:06:45Jeff Larson?

  Boromir has a temper.

• 1:06:47Wes Larson?

  I really noticed it this time where Legolas has so many terrible line deliveries just to like the ether.

• 1:06:53Mike Smith?

  No way, dude.

• 1:06:54Wes Larson?

  That, yeah.

• 1:06:55Mike Smith?

  It's Elvish.

• 1:06:55Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I don't know, maybe the Hobbit movies kind of tainted my Legolas feelings too. But that's how I feel.

• 1:07:03Mike Smith?

  Taint your feelings.

• 1:07:05Wes Larson?

  If you can put grizzlies back in any state where they used to exist and the hypothetical here is they're going to do well. Cause obviously if you like put them in Texas right now, they wouldn't do great. Which state would you pick? So they're going to do well. Which state are you picking?

• 1:07:19Jeff Larson?

  Maine.

• 1:07:20Wes Larson?

  They didn't used to exist in Maine. That's off the table.

• 1:07:23Mike Smith?

  Oh, really?

• 1:07:24Wes Larson?

  They have, they had to, used to exist in this state.

• 1:07:26Jeff Larson?

  Forty thousand black bears.

• 1:07:28Wes Larson?

  Yeah, but that doesn't, you're not putting them in Maine because that's not one of the options.

• 1:07:32Mike Smith?

  Grizzlies never existed in Maine?

• 1:07:34Wes Larson?

  Not that I know of.

• 1:07:36Mike Smith?

  Wow.

• 1:07:36Wes Larson?

  I can look at there. So that there's the historical range, which is like everything we know in history, they existed in, like in written history. And then there's post-glacial range, which would be like where we know Ursus Ursus as a species existed. And Maine is not one of those places. They did exist around the Great Lakes kind of, but not Maine. So Maine doesn't count.

• 1:07:59Mike Smith?

  Did they ever live in Nevada?

• 1:08:01Wes Larson?

  Yes.

• 1:08:02Mike Smith?

  Then that's what I, I'm thinking bears, oh man, a bear on the Vegas Strip every once in a while would be so sweet.

• 1:08:09Wes Larson?

  And that would be cool.

• 1:08:10Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:11Wes Larson?

  I think I'm gonna pick Arizona. I just think it'd be cool to have grizzlies in Arizona again.

• 1:08:18Mike Smith?

  Why?

• 1:08:19Wes Larson?

  Just, I feel like Arizona already has some really interesting wildlife, like every once in a while they get a jaguar. Uh, they have like peccarys and ringtail cats and just kind of weird stuff that you don't really find in a lot of places. And so it'd be cool if they also like throw a grizzly bear in the mix too, in the desert.

• 1:08:38Jeff Larson?

  I'm gonna pick North Dakota.

• 1:08:40Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:08:41Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. Needs something.

• 1:08:43Wes Larson?

  Sure. Yeah, just do them a favor.

• 1:08:45Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, they need something to get excited about.

• 1:08:49Wes Larson?

  Sunflowers right now and that's about it.

• 1:08:51Jeff Larson?

  Dude, a grizzly bear and sunflowers, that'd be beautiful.

• 1:08:54Wes Larson?

  That would be beautiful.

• 1:08:55Mike Smith?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:08:56Wes Larson?

  That's a good pick.

• 1:08:57Mike Smith?

  Okay. Do you think if a zombie may, or zombie?

• 1:09:06Jeff Larson?

  A ghost grizzly.

• 1:09:07Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:11Mike Smith?

  What could I possibly have been thinking about to say zombie? What was I thinking about? What? Never mind.

• 1:09:19Jeff Larson?

  You think if a zombie went to North Dakota, it would find anyone to eat? Is that what you're gonna say?

• 1:09:25Mike Smith?

  I think that must have been what I was thinking.

• 1:09:29Mike Smith?

  Alright.

• 1:09:31Wes Larson?

  Next category is a really quick, where Mike and Jeff paying attention, but it's one for a good cause. So I talked about seven states just now in the history of when grizzly bears were eliminated from those states. And if you guys can tell me six of those seven states, uh, and if you can get at least two of them in the right order that I said, I'm gonna donate $250 to the Bella Kula attack victims.

• 1:10:03Mike Smith?

  Bruh.

• 1:10:03Jeff Larson?

  Can't you just donate the money no matter what?

• 1:10:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Tell me, tell me what?

• 1:10:10Mike Smith?

  This is smart. Cause now it's our fault if he doesn't.

• 1:10:13Wes Larson?

  I think you guys can do this. If you can get six of the seven states and I'll allow you get one mulligan. So if you say a wrong state, that's okay. I want six of the seven and if you get two of them in order, you should be able to get the last one right. I'm gonna donate that much money. So what was the first state that I said grizzly bears were eliminated from in 1890? Oh, when you go in order? If you get them in order, you get extra. Texas. Two of them in order. Great. Perfect. What was the last state I said in 1979? Colorado. Okay, so we got that out of the way and we got two of the states. So now all I need is five more states that I mentioned and you get one miss each and I'll donate that much money.

• 1:10:57Wes Larson?

  Do we need to go in order or? Nope, we already got them in order. But if you get them in order, great. Utah. Utah. Arizona. Arizona.

• 1:11:07Wes Larson?

  Nevada. No. California. That's Jeff's mulligan. California. What? You did say Nevada just to Mike recently, though. I know, but that's not one of the ones I mentioned. So you guys have done what? Mention it to Mike. Arizona, California, and Utah are the three you've said. He's got you on a technicality. And then we also had Texas and Colorado. So we have five. You need two. You need one more. Wyoming? And Mike, you still have your mulligan. Well, they live in Wyoming still. Mike got his mulligan, but Jeff got it right. Yeah. New Mexico was one of the states. The other ones I said were Oregon, or the other one was Oregon. Oregon. All right, you guys did it. Donating 250 bucks to the victims of the Bella Kula bear attack.

• 1:11:50Wes Larson?

  I already donated it. I just wanted to grill you guys a little bit.

• 1:11:56Wes Larson?

  All right. We're gonna do a quick let's argue. Okay. Cause I saw a review on Apple Podcasts for our show and we're gonna argue with this reviewer. Because the reviewer said, "All three of the hosts think that the second Jurassic Park movie is the best." What? Yeah. How could they have ever? They must have listened to like one episode and taken it fully out of context. We don't think that at all. I think all three of us squarely think Jurassic Park is by far the best of all the Jurassic movies, right? Did they mean best sequel? That's must be what they're thinking.

• 1:12:38Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:38Wes Larson?

  But I thought we could argue about that maybe a little bit. Do you guys think The Lost World is the best sequel? Cause I definitely do.

• 1:12:44Jeff Larson?

  I don't see it as much better than the third.

• 1:12:47Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I don't really like any of the other movies enough to like even label one of them as being the best. I just don't really have a good time with any of them.

• 1:12:55Wes Larson?

  I genuinely like The Lost World a lot. It's nowhere near Jurassic Park, but I really like it. And it's the only one I feel that way about.

• 1:13:03Mike Smith?

  Yeah, no, there's like, there's some really fun moments in it, of course, but I. Overall, I think it was a pretty bad miss for Spielberg.

• 1:13:12Jeff Larson?

  I didn't think Vince Vaughn was that funny.

• 1:13:14Wes Larson?

  Was he supposed to be funny?

• 1:13:16Mike Smith?

  I don't, was he supposed to be?

• 1:13:18Wes Larson?

  Nick, I think his character's name's Nick, right?

• 1:13:21Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I thought.

• 1:13:22Jeff Larson?

  I think it had some really cool scenes, but yeah, a little bit hard to watch.

• 1:13:27Wes Larson?

  Which I liked, um, some cool kills, the raptors in the grass is really cool. I just think like, it gave me what I wanted, especially at that age, which was a bunch of people getting killed by dinosaurs.

• 1:13:39Mike Smith?

  Sure.

• 1:13:40Wes Larson?

  And it's Steven Spielberg still.

• 1:13:42Mike Smith?

  The way I think about it is, you know, after the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, they basically made Johnny Depp the star of

• 1:13:49Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:50Mike Smith?

  that series because he was such like a fun, kooky character. That's kind of what they tried to do with Malcolm in The Lost World. But they were like, but don't do any of the things that made you fun or interesting. Just be like a weird nervous dad.

• 1:14:03Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 1:14:04Mike Smith?

  It was a really strange character decision.

• 1:14:07Wes Larson?

  They do like, they waste him. They like completely changed his whole vibe in the second movie.

• 1:14:13Mike Smith?

  And he's still on, just Jeff Goldblum is so awesome that like, it's still kind of works, but I, yeah, I don't know. There was such a weird miscalculation on their part.

• 1:14:23Wes Larson?

  I think that it has some of the most beautiful scenes of any of the Jurassic movies. Like the part where the two T-Rexes first like step into that clearing and then rip that guy in half. It's really like strangely beautiful. The raptors like jumping around all those abandoned buildings. The girl doing the gymnastics routine and kicking that raptor.

• 1:14:43Mike Smith?

  The best part.

• 1:14:43Wes Larson?

  About that.

• 1:14:44Mike Smith?

  The gymnastics.

• 1:14:47Jeff Larson?

  Alright, so there you have it. It's Wes's favorite Jurassic Park.

• 1:14:50Wes Larson?

  It's not my favorite, we're arguing. Uh, yeah, it was still a five star review, so we won't be too mad at that person. If you, if you ever feel like leaving us one of those, go for it. It helps us out a lot. Okay. In Borneo, when we went to Borneo, one of our travelers, Christine, gave us some Lord of the Rings trivia cards. If you'll remember.

• 1:15:13Mike Smith?

  Ooh, nice. I do remember now.

• 1:15:14Wes Larson?

  I'm going to randomly draw three cards and ask three questions for you guys.

• 1:15:21Mike Smith?

  Thanks, Christine.

• 1:15:22Wes Larson?

  Yes, thank you.

• 1:15:23Mike Smith?

  Hope you're still out there.

• 1:15:24Jeff Larson?

  Thanks, Christine.

• 1:15:25Wes Larson?

  First card is titled The Second Age. Question one: Which legendary elven king is slain in an epic battle in the Second Age?

• 1:15:37Jeff Larson?

  Theodora.

• 1:15:38Wes Larson?

  This is the battle, yeah, Gilgamesh is my guess.

• 1:15:41Mike Smith?

  What was your guess, Jeff? Is that a real person?

• 1:15:44Jeff Larson?

  I don't know.

• 1:15:47Jeff Larson?

  Wes said yeah, like, that's right.

• 1:15:48Wes Larson?

  I thought you said Gilgamesh. I thought you said Gilgamesh.

• 1:15:52Mike Smith?

  Gilgamesh?

• 1:15:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:54Mike Smith?

  I'll go with Gilgamesh then, too.

• 1:15:56Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:15:57Jeff Larson?

  Gilgamesh.

• 1:15:58Mike Smith?

  Gilgamesh.

• 1:16:00Wes Larson?

  Uh, here's another card. This one's titled Trolls. How many points are on the spear that the Moria cave troll stabs Frodo with?

• 1:16:09Mike Smith?

  Three.

• 1:16:10Jeff Larson?

  Twelve.

• 1:16:11Wes Larson?

  Three is the correct answer.

• 1:16:14Mike Smith?

  A twelve-point spear would be dangerous.

• 1:16:16Wes Larson?

  That would be cool.

• 1:16:17Mike Smith?

  Be like a candelabra.

• 1:16:19Jeff Larson?

  Well, I mean, it's like the bear story. Nine of the spear things got stuck in the mist rail.

• 1:16:26Mike Smith?

  It's a broad-headed spear.

• 1:16:29Wes Larson?

  All right, this one's called Rohan. What symbolic gesture does the leader of the wild men do to show allegiance to Saruman?

• 1:16:38Mike Smith?

  Ooh, cuts his hands.

• 1:16:40Wes Larson?

  Cuts his hand, correct. Okay, one more. This one's titled Isengard. Who says that the dwarves awaken shadow and flame in the darkness of Khazad-dûm?

• 1:16:51Jeff Larson?

  Uh, Saruman.

• 1:16:53Wes Larson?

  Correct. It is Saruman. All right, thank you, Christine, for those cards. Nice gift.

• 1:16:59Mike Smith?

  Wes has donated another 250. Thank you very much to Lord of the Rings, uh, support groups. All right, listener questions.

• 1:17:10Wes Larson?

  This one's from Colleen. Colleen says, "My listener questions comes from a conversation my mom had tonight at dinner."

• 1:17:17Jeff Larson?

  Hi, Colleen.

• 1:17:19Wes Larson?

  Hey, Colleen. She was so excited to tell me that she was listening to one of the newest episodes, but hated the California slander, specifically the "Add gray wolves to the flag." I think that was you, Jeff.

• 1:17:30Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:31Wes Larson?

  "To be fair, I thought it was hilarious. We then talked about how terrible it is that Mike is a Padres fan. Go Dodgers." And it led me to want to ask, "What is your favorite thing about California? Mike, you can say the Padres, but with the Dodgers in the same state, you might as well just say them." Mike, I'll let you go first.

• 1:17:49Mike Smith?

  It's like, how can you, it's, there's just not even, the worst part is that there's not even an argument to be made. The Dodgers are just historically and currently so much better, and it's really painful. I'm gonna go, I think Southern California specifically has the best Americanized Mexican food in the country. I know all y'all Texas people, you got good, great Mexican food even. Tex-Mex is great, but...

• 1:18:14Jeff Larson?

  Kind of traditional Mexican food, too. They got a lot of just like, pretty authentic. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah.

• 1:18:21Mike Smith?

  Jeff, what's your favorite thing about California?

• 1:18:24Jeff Larson?

  Probably just like, the scenery. I think it's a beautiful state. You get ocean, mountains, redwoods. I mean, it's not, I'm sorry, I'm not the one that killed all your grizzly bears. You know, so, Colleen's mom, I'm sorry. Like, I think you'd be one of the best, I think you might be the best state if you had grizzly bears, but you don't, so you're not.

• 1:18:46Wes Larson?

  I'm gonna say the redwoods. I think the redwoods are my favorite part of California. Every time I go there.

• 1:18:52Jeff Larson?

  That's my like, national park I most want to see, I think.

• 1:18:55Wes Larson?

  It's so magical. Alright, this one's from Hannah. Hannah says, "Hi, boys. Two questions for you guys. First, for Wes, the latest episode on the ghost grizzlies of Colorado make me think about the plan to reintroduce grizzlies to the North Cascades in Washington. Are there any similar plans in place in Colorado? And do you think that could be done effectively?" There are not, and the reason it can't be done effectively is when they're reintroducing grizzlies to places, they want to do it in places where they can connect to existing populations. So like the ones in the North Cascades, hopefully we'll be able to connect into populations in British Columbia, and that helps improve, you know, genetic fitness,

• 1:19:36Wes Larson?

  all sorts of different things, the overall range of the species. And right now, reintroducing them in the San Juans, you'd be reintroducing in an island population that would be really not a very strong population.

• 1:19:49Jeff Larson?

  Because Colorado does border Wyoming, but the bears in Wyoming just don't go that far south.

• 1:19:55Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they don't make it even close. So there just wouldn't be any connection.

• 1:19:59Jeff Larson?

  Couldn't you like lead a line of treats for them to get them to go further south?

• 1:20:05Wes Larson?

  I guess we haven't thought of that. We could do that. So I take back my whole answer. Your brain is your biggest tool, Jeff. You're right. No, like in Montana, they've talked a lot about putting them in the mountains where I live, the bitter roots, where we occasionally have them because they live really close to here. And that would be a great spot for a reintroduction because they would connect very easily to other populations. So that's kind of the crux of that. Second question from Hannah, if you were facing a Bogart or Bogart, how do you say that? Bogart, the one from Harry Potter? The thing in the chest that's like the scary, it's the scariest thing they can imagine. Bogart, right?

• 1:20:46Jeff Larson?

  Like Neville thinks of Snape, which is like Snape's a bad guy.

• 1:20:50Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:51Jeff Larson?

  He's just torturing kids that aren't Harry Potter, too.

• 1:20:55Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Hannah says, what form do you think it would take? And what would you turn it into to no longer be scary?

• 1:21:02Jeff Larson?

  But Harry still names his son Severus.

• 1:21:05Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Snape is the real hero.

• 1:21:10Jeff Larson?

  Just tortured kids.

• 1:21:12Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Including him. What's your Bogart gonna be? And what are you turning it into? What's your scariest thing?

• 1:21:18Jeff Larson?

  Mine would be Snape.

• 1:21:22Wes Larson?

  They nailed it for you. And you'd put a dress on him?

• 1:21:26Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:27Wes Larson?

  Okay, Mike, what's your answer?

• 1:21:30Mike Smith?

  I don't know. Myself? Aren't we all our own worst enemy after all? Like that one just failure?

• 1:21:37Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Yeah, it would have to be something existential for me, too. It'd be like my consciousness trapped in a computer, which would be hard for a Bogart to display. But then I would turn it into like, I don't know, a koala.

• 1:21:54Jeff Larson?

  Mike's, yeah, koalas are cute, that's why.

• 1:21:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they are. They're cute as shit.

• 1:21:59Jeff Larson?

  Mike's would be like Snape as a horse.

• 1:22:03Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:04Jeff Larson?

  And you'd turn it into

• 1:22:05Mike Smith?

  Snorse.

• 1:22:07Jeff Larson?

  A zebra.

• 1:22:08Wes Larson?

  Hape.

• 1:22:09Mike Smith?

  Oh dude, that would be cool.

• 1:22:12Wes Larson?

  Alright, this one's from Sarah. Sarah says I'm typically

• 1:22:15Mike Smith?

  Ready to take on a Bogart now.

• 1:22:17Wes Larson?

  I'm typically anti audiobook, but trying to learn to like them. Have you listened to any that you'd recommend in that format?

• 1:22:24Mike Smith?

  Hell yeah, bruh. Are you kidding me?

• 1:22:26Wes Larson?

  We just, we just talked about Harry Potter and not to like, I have my issues right now with, you know, everything going on around those books, but I think they're the best audiobooks I've ever listened to.

• 1:22:37Jeff Larson?

  Because of like all the witches in the world?

• 1:22:40Wes Larson?

  No, because of all the trans, uh, fear in the world, but yeah, transphobia, but uh,

• 1:22:48Jeff Larson?

  I thought Iskra witches.

• 1:22:49Wes Larson?

  So no, I have a hard time recommending her books right now, but those audiobooks are perfect and I think they're so fun to listen to. And I actually really liked the Three Body Problem books in an audiobook format, too. Mike, what do you, what do you recommend?

• 1:23:03Mike Smith?

  Those are, those are the kinds of books I actually, I know it's, it's almost a different experience entirely, but I felt like I had to read those in text or otherwise I was kind of missing out on a lot was going, people are just they ingest, people ingest information differently, but for me, Tim Curry, actually, he did the narration for, uh, the Abhorson trilogy. Sabriel's the first book. Amazing, amazing books about a young woman who grew up, well, I won't get too much into spoilers, but it's about necromancy, all kinds of cool magical stuff, uh, highly underrated. And I highly recommend them to anyone who's interested in some cool magical books. The first three, uh, specifically are the ones I'd tell you to get into. Sabriel, Lirial, Abhorson.

• 1:23:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:46Mike Smith?

  Tim Curry, are you kidding me? You're hot off the, probably just got done acting in Home Alone 2 back then.

• 1:23:52Wes Larson?

  Pennywise.

• 1:23:53Mike Smith?

  One of the great works in American film history.

• 1:23:56Jeff Larson?

  First of all, I'll recommend going on like a long drive and doing it. You know?

• 1:24:01Mike Smith?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:24:02Jeff Larson?

  Like, that's the perfect format for an audiobook. And then, kind of a sneaky one that was really good was Ender's Game.

• 1:24:09Wes Larson?

  Oh, yeah, that was a good audiobook.

• 1:24:11Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:12Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I read that one and listened to the audiobook and they're both really good.

• 1:24:16Mike Smith?

  Yeah, that one's great because it's quick. You can really, it doesn't even have to be like a super long road trip.

• 1:24:21Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it's great. One more question. This one's from Blake. Blake says, hi, I've been thinking about this question since I saw a movie poster with Jason Momoa. Uh, and that question is, what actor or actors need to stop being in movies for a little while? Or at least slow down because they're in too many? Mine is obviously Jason Momoa. Momoa, because I swear he's in every single movie. Thank you. I didn't really give you guys time to think about this, but I've been thinking about it. And my answer is Sydney Sweeney. I just feel like she's in everything these days.

• 1:24:53Jeff Larson?

  No way, dude, put her in more.

• 1:24:55Mike Smith?

  Everything.

• 1:24:56Wes Larson?

  And I don't, I don't think she's a really good actor. I, she's had certain performances I thought she was good in, but her like, I don't know, she just doesn't really, doesn't really work for me. And Glenn Powell, actually, too.

• 1:25:08Mike Smith?

  She's making interesting choices. I was thinking Glenn Powell was one for me. I, I really like Glenn Powell, but it's getting to the point where it's like, alright, man. We're hurt.

• 1:25:16Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:17Mike Smith?

  Oh, you're getting, but I also don't blame anyone for working as much as they can. I remember, and it's not going to be the case for everyone, but I remember when Bruce Willis was really pumping out just like three movies a year and everyone was like, oh my gosh, what is it? And then it ended up just like, he wanted to be acting or earning, whatever his reason was, whether it was financial or just he wanted to act while he still could, but like, I don't know, being an actor, it's a really volatile business. So like, get it while the getting's good.

• 1:25:44Jeff Larson?

  For me, it's more gonna be like, good actors that are doing commercials right now.

• 1:25:50Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:50Jeff Larson?

  Like, if you're Matt Damon and you're gonna be in Christopher Nolan's next movie as like, the, one of the lead guys, maybe you like turn down a couple commercials about beer. You know?

• 1:26:03Mike Smith?

  Crypto. You don't need that.

• 1:26:05Jeff Larson?

  And like, Matthew McConaughey is just everywhere. It's just like, ah, yeah.

• 1:26:11Wes Larson?

  And they have to start like alcohol companies and stuff too, where it's just like, come on, guys. Yeah.

• 1:26:17Jeff Larson?

  That one doesn't bug me because like with Clooney or whatever because he's not really in the commercial that much, but when I see someone just like, and like at least they care about that. A lot of times they're just reading something they don't care about for like a little paycheck or something.

• 1:26:34Wes Larson?

  I don't think they really care about their companies either, though. I think someone's just running it all for them and they're slapping their face on it.

• 1:26:40Jeff Larson?

  Maybe. I don't mind those as much as when it's just like some random company that they're like not like that. It's just like a soulless endorsement for.

• 1:26:51Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:51Jeff Larson?

  And it's like, sponsored by.

• 1:26:55Wes Larson?

  I was about to say, tooth and claws brought to you by.

• 1:27:00Wes Larson?

  Okay. That's it for listener questions. Quick conservation. You know, we talked about it. Grizzly bears have made huge steps toward their recovery in the lower forty-eight. There's been a lot of really hard work done to get them to that level. But as far as if we look at this animal from a global perspective, their least concerned animal. There are a lot of them in Canada, a lot in Russia, in Finland and Sweden. There's a lot. They're doing pretty, pretty well globally. Yeah. In Hokkaido, they're doing well. That's a great thing. And I think it's wonderful. And I love that we can kind of learn from our mistakes in the lower forty-eight and hopefully put them back in some of the places

• 1:27:42Wes Larson?

  that we used to have them because they're my favorite animal and I really deeply care about them. China has them. Yep. They have them.

• 1:27:49Jeff Larson?

  Do they?

• 1:27:49Wes Larson?

  Yeah. They do.

• 1:27:51Jeff Larson?

  Wow. That panda's too.

• 1:27:53Wes Larson?

  They, they're one of the two countries that has four bear species. You know the other one?

• 1:27:58Jeff Larson?

  It's not the United States. It's not Canada. I'm gonna say Russia.

• 1:28:03Wes Larson?

  No. Mike, you gotta guess. We've been there.

• 1:28:06Mike Smith?

  In India?

• 1:28:07Wes Larson?

  Yes, it is India.

• 1:28:09Jeff Larson?

  Oh, really?

• 1:28:10Mike Smith?

  Indiana.

• 1:28:10Wes Larson?

  All right. Um, that's it. Thanks, guys, for listening. We got some new merch coming out, so hopefully you guys check that out. It's fun new merch that will only be available for a few weeks. And it's the holiday season, so if you feel like gifting a Patreon subscription or annual membership, it's a great time of the year to do it and it really helps us out a lot. Yeah.

• 1:28:35Jeff Larson?

  You recommend that, Mike?

• 1:28:38Wes Larson?

  Well, let me think.

• 1:28:42Jeff Larson?

  The problem is the people who want that as a gift are the ones listening. And like their significant others or whatever aren't listening, so they don't know to get that.

• 1:28:53Wes Larson?

  But maybe they are, you know, you never know. It's funny, because when we first started the Patreon, I kind of was like, man, I don't know if this is worth it. And now it's like, man, this is the best deal out there, you know? Just 100 episodes.

• 1:29:06Jeff Larson?

  If anyone like tags me in a story or something of our Patreon subscription, I'll buy one person's for you.

• 1:29:16Wes Larson?

  Ooh, wow.

• 1:29:17Jeff Larson?

  I'm just gonna randomly buy one.

• 1:29:20Wes Larson?

  Alright, alright, so tag Jeff and thanks guys for listening and we'll see you soon.

• 1:29:27Jeff Larson?

  Alright, love ya.

• 1:29:29Wes Larson?

  See ya.

• 1:29:49Speaker 05

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• 1:29:52Speaker 05

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