171. Advice from Nontraditional Storytellers Part 2

Make your audience a part of the story. Great storytellers don't just relay information — they create experiences. As magicians, TikTok influencers, and stand-up comedians, these masters of engagement know that true connection happens when you make your audience a part of the story. In part two of this special series on storytelling, host Matt Abrahams explores the art of audience connection with an extraordinary lineup. For magician Alex Moffat https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/alex-moffat/, it’s about immersive performance. “How can I get the audience to not [just] sit there watching? They've got to be able to feel it too,” he says. As TikTok's head of creator marketing, Kudzi Chikumbu https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/kudzi-chikumbu/ says authenticity is everything. "Be your authentic self. Show yourself in a way that other people don't." And for standup comedian Orlando Leyba https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/orlando-leyba/, it’s about leveraging presence and responsiveness to transform a performance into a genuine conversation. In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart https://www.fastersmarter.io/, discover how these engagement experts create stories that don't just inform or entertain — they forge genuine connections with every audience member. Episode Reference Links: Alex Moffat https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/alex-moffat/Kudzi Chikumbu https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/kudzi-chikumbu/Orlando Leyba https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/orlando-leyba/Ep.168 How Story Can Change Everything in Your Career https://www.fastersmarter.io/videos/168-how-story-can-change-everything-in-your-career/Ep.50 Telling Good Stories: How to Use the Elements of Narrative to Keep Listeners Engaged https://www.fastersmarter.io/50-telling-good-stories-how-to-use-the-elements-of-narrative-to-keep-listeners-engaged/ Connect: Premium Signup >>> Think Fast Talk Smart Premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/Email Questions & Feedback >>> [email protected] Transcripts >>>Think Fast Talk Smart Website https://www.fastersmarter.io/171-advice-from-nontraditional-storytellers-part-2/Newsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>>FasterSmarter.io http://fastersmarter.io/Think Fast Talk Smart >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/think-fast-talk-smart/,Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkfasttalksmart/, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6caGRBUYZCmgDGM2RK6mxKB9jG_ccmm3Matt Abrahams >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams/ Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction (00:56) - Linear vs. Nonlinear Storytelling (04:22) - Tools for Engaging an Audience (07:47) - Key Ingredients of a Good Story (09:36) - Authenticity in Storytelling (10:45) - Description in Storytelling (11:12) - Positivity in Storytelling (14:45) - Engaging Through Presence (16:22) - Conclusion ******** Thank you to our sponsors. These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost. Learn more about how Notion https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast can support your business at notion.com/thinkfast. https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpage

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Abrahams?

  Hi, Matt here. In the moment, conflict is difficult for everyone. In our October newsletter, out now, you will learn ways to help yourself handle these challenges better. Not only do you get specific advice, we're also providing an infographic to help you remember. Find our newsletter on the Think Fast, Talk Smart LinkedIn page or at fastersmarter.io under Resources. Now, a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production, allowing us to bring you this episode free of charge. Having expertise is valuable, but if you want to build something from what you know, people need an easy way to find you and understand what you can offer them. Squarespace can help you do that. You can build a professional website that showcases your work and turn your expertise

• 0:44Matt Abrahams?

  into services like consulting, coaching, classes, and events. And with tools like Acuity Scheduling, people can book time with you directly, while Squarespace can handle payments right through your site. So whether you're building a business or simply taking an idea to the next level, you can create one place that helps people go from interested to engaged. Go to Squarespace.com/thinkfast for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code THINKFAST to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Writing a story without thinking about your audience first is like writing a love letter and addressing it to whom it may concern. Ken Hamer, who originated that quote, is right on.

• 1:29Matt Abrahams?

  If we don't know our audiences, we can't connect our story to them. We can't make it engaging. A story will fall flat if it doesn't have a targeted audience. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

• 1:51Matt Abrahams?

  I am so excited to be back for our second episode in our unconventional, non-traditional storyteller series. In our first episode, we talked about how we need to structure and frame our content to really make it clear and concise for our audience. We talked to a trial lawyer and a cartoonist. Today, we're going to look at how to make our stories engaging and compelling. Our first conversation in today's episode is with Alex Moffat. He's a magician from the UK who's currently living in Sydney, and he's been performing magic since he was seven years old. Let's listen in to hear what tricks he pulls out of his hat to help us all be better storytellers.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  So in magic, there's a couple of ways magicians go. You can have a linear route or a nonlinear route. And a linear route would just be like, pick a card, put it back in the pack, shuffle it. Ta-da, I've found it. And that might be baffling. It might be interesting. It might be, how did you do that? But it's not necessarily entertaining. There isn't really a story to it. Alternatively, the nonlinear route, which involves the misdirection, attention focus, et cetera, and emotion, is where I might go, hey, Matt, what's your favorite card? And you name it. Hey, would you take that out and draw a picture on it? Sign your name on it. It's yours now. There's one in the world that exists like this.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  And then five or six different effects happen. But then, rather than just go, ta-da, it then multiplies into three of them, which is impossible because you only created one. Then they all instantly disappear. And then I throw and spring the cards at the window in the restaurant or hotel, wherever you are, person's house. The cards cascade to the floor. And one card was left stuck to the window with the back facing everyone. I ask the person to go up and get it. They go up and get it, but they can't take it off the window because they realize it's on the other side of the glass outside the building. They have to run out, go and get it. As they peel it off the window, they wave at all their friends, and then they come running back in to a round of applause. And of course, that's their signed card.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  And that has meaning. It's a journey. The card went on a journey. But there's connection to it with the person, their favorite, they created a piece of art on it, theirs. And then magical things happen. And of course, an impossible ending that's memorable. Just go straight to the point where there's no story, or you can go off on these tangents and journeys and make it meaningful and connected to them. One that I've recently performed for the very first time in recent keynotes, it's the rubber hand illusion. So it's an example on neuroplasticity and how easy it is to rewire the brain very quickly. So I get a volunteer on stage. I've got this rubber hand. And I have this little box that they put their real hand under the rubber hand on top.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  And I simultaneously with a paintbrush, just stroke their real hand underneath the box that they can't see. And the same finger of the rubber hand that they can see. And almost instantly, the brain starts to cause that rubber hand to be associated as their own. My problem was that there's only one person on stage experiencing it and feeling it. So how can I get the audience to not sit there bored going, oh, they're enjoying this and we're just sat watching. They've got to be able to feel it too. So I've moved into things where I ask them if they feel that they could raise their finger. Would it raise on the rubber hand? And they go, it does feel like I could move this hand.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  And then I asked them to just move their their left index finger and then the rubber hand index finger moves up by itself as they are doing it. And so that freaks them out, but freaks the audience out, of course, because it's this loose rubber hand that I've shown.

• 5:38Matt Abrahams?

  Alex is a true master of engagement. To me, engagement is all about sustaining people's attention. Attention is the most precious commodity we have in the world today. And if you can keep that attention, you have somebody engaged. And as a magician, it's all about managing attention. And you can hear the level of detail and thought that Alex puts into it. And he leverages story to help his audience focus their attention and be engaged.

• 6:10Matt Abrahams?

  There are many ways to engage an audience. You can engage an audience through description, vivid description. You can engage an audience by playing with their curiosity and surprise. And certainly Alex does both. You can also leverage physicality. If you see a magician on stage, there's movement. He's moving around. He's asking you to watch things so that physicality gets you engaged. There's the language you use. Is it inclusive, using the word you, us, or we? Getting people to envision things in their mind, as Alex often does, through asking questions. These are powerful tools to help your audience get engaged. Now, we don't have to be a performer on a stage.

• 6:53Matt Abrahams?

  We can leverage these tools in a meeting. We can leverage the storytelling best practices in our everyday conversation. Bringing your audience into that moment, helping them see it, feel it. That's what gets engagement. It's also critical when engaging our audience to make sure that we are efficient with people's time, and we have to be clear and concise. And that's where our conversation with Kudzi Chikumbu, who's the head of creator marketing at TikTok and an influencer who goes by the name Sir Candleman, where he focuses on fragrance and beauty.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  In a world of short form video, which, you know, where TikTok started, you can actually upload longer videos on TikTok as well, over a minute and more. But I still find what keeps people engaged in the story, whether it's 15 seconds, 30 seconds, one minute, five minute, 10 minute plus, is the same thing. You need to make every second count, which used to be the old TikTok lingo and motto. Now it's inspire creativity and bring joy. But in 15 seconds, that same hero's journey applies to 10 minutes. Meaning in 15 seconds, what people want to know is, what is this video about? What is the problem? Why are you the person to tell me? And how can you help me? Find the perfect fragrance for when you.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Are out on the town and trying to find a boyfriend. And I'm Sir Candleman, your fragrance curator. They know I'm the expert. I'm going to tell them this thing. These are three fragrances. Buy this one because X, Y, Z. I can do that in 30 seconds, but I can also give you a deep dive of fragrance for an hour. Same applies to marketers. You can do the 15 second, 30 second cut, 60 second ad spot, which should effectively help people understand like what your product or service is and why they should engage with it. Or you can do the big brand story documentary, the creative exercise, but should still do the same thing. So in all of those things, back to make every second count, no part of that video, whether 15 seconds or 15 minutes, should be wasted time.

• 9:03Matt Abrahams?

  I'm wondering if you can just summarize for us. What are the key ingredients from your perspective of a good story?

• 9:11Speaker 02

  I would say a good story has a strong hook or reason to be listened to or heard. I think it has a strong entry point for the listener, the viewer, the reader, to find themselves in the story. It has enough conflict or a challenge that they're trying to solve. So a problem for this person. And then it has a clear arc and resolution where you help them achieve the thing you promised in the beginning or refer them on to someone else. So especially in short form video land, to make this example concrete

• 9:53Speaker 02

  or social media, wherever people are posting, when people come across your poster video, why must I stop? Like, what is there that's making me stop? Two, who are you and how do I relate to you? Meaning then I want to watch and learn more. And three, how are you helping me solve whatever it is that I came to you for? Or entertain me, inspire me, inform me? And then three, do I actually get to that resolution? So those are the key parts. You can do them fast, you can do them slow. And I would say for people looking for a bonus tip, especially in a world where there's so much content on. Online and you want to shine through, you need to have personality and people would be like, what does that mean? It means you just need to be your authentic self. By that, I mean like truly be passionate and

• 10:39Speaker 02

  truly speak in the way you speak in the way that other people don't speak. It's okay to show yourself in the way that other people don't see, because that's how you cut through so much of the same content. Otherwise, you're just another video in a deluge of videos.

• 10:52Matt Abrahams?

  The other thing that Kudzu does, and I have a little insight as a former student of mine. He is amazingly authentic. He is who he is regardless of if he's in his role as the head of creator marketing at TikTok, or if he's in the role of Sir Candleman. He is who he is and authenticity is really important. We connect with people we see as real, not people who are putting on pretense or hiding behind something. So it's not just the story you tell, it's the authenticity you bring to the story. And that's true in any kind of messaging. If you are trying to be persuasive, if you're trying to be inspirational, being authentic really, truly can help.

• 11:35Matt Abrahams?

  And that's that in and of itself is the definition of engagement. He's got the attention and we see in his stories and his information ourselves. And that's really a powerful way of engaging.

• 11:49Matt Abrahams?

  Hi, Matt here. One thing I've learned is that having a strong idea is only part of the work. You also have to help people understand why it matters to them. Before an important conversation, I ask myself, who am I talking to? What do they care about? And how can I make my message relevant to them? That kind of practical learning is what I appreciate about MasterClass. You can explore more than 200 classes or go deeper with a MasterClass certificate course focused on a specific professional skill. I recommend strategic communication, build trust, drive decisions, lead with influence. My own class is included in the certificate course, which offers practical approaches for getting your ideas heard, building support and communicating with greater influence.

• 12:34Matt Abrahams?

  You'll also complete a real world project, receive personalized AI feedback and earn a shareable certificate. Right now, you can get up to 50% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/talksmart. That's masterclass.com/talksmart to see the latest offer.

• 12:54Matt Abrahams?

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• 13:37Matt Abrahams?

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• 13:53Matt Abrahams?

  Another powerful way of engaging is to really focus in on how you deliver the message you deliver. And no one is better at focusing on delivery and timing than stand-up comedians. Our final conversation is with Orlando Leyba, who is a stand-up comedian. He has performed multiple times on The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. And he's not only funny, but he actually tells stories that matter and finds the humor in them. And he does so in a very descriptive way that really pulls us in. Let's hear a story that Orlando tells that's not only funny, but educational.

• 14:35Speaker 03

  The story goes, I'm on the road. I fly home to visit my mother. I grew up in South Florida, tropical place. Some people feel like they need to have a passport when they're in South Florida. And I decide to drive around the old neighborhoods. I borrow my mother's car, and I get pulled over by the cops. Nothing new that happens, you know? What was strange about this cop was that it was a bicycle cop. And I didn't know they could do that. I didn't know they could pull cars. So I thought they were strictly sidewalk action. Maybe someone's getting away by the mall and they're... I didn't know they could do that. He knocked on my window, scared the bejesus out of me.

• 15:19Speaker 03

  And he yelled at me, pull it over. He had a little like, he had a little like, so I pulled it over. Uh, when I pulled over, he finally pulls up next to me. I rolled down my window. He had the typical cop talk. He was talking the cop talk. And he was like, do you, do you,

• 15:40Speaker 03

  do you know how fast you were going?

• 15:44Speaker 03

  And I was like, uh, clearly not fast enough. And that's the beginning of that story. He did not like that. He put down his little kickstand and he got off that bike. What did you say to me? And that's part of a, a lot, that's the beginning of a very long

• 16:01Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 16:01Speaker 03

  journey with that bicycle cop.

• 16:04Matt Abrahams?

  And it goes on and it's very funny, but one of the things that I respect so much about your work is you keep a very positive energy. How much of that is a conscious choice for you to be positive? And how does that impact the stories you tell?

• 16:20Speaker 03

  You know, I just, I was in, I don't want to say the place, but I was in a place where they grow a lot of corn. And, uh, all the audiences were good, except one show, two young men and their farmers. And their, their energy was our girlfriends, our fiancés dragged us here to see you. They find you fun. I don't think you're fun. And, um, it took me a solid 20 minutes to get them on my side. To get them to uncross their arms, release,

• 17:01Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 17:01Speaker 03

  lower the testosterone level.

• 17:03Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 17:03Speaker 03

  Cause they were younger guys also.

• 17:05Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah.

• 17:05Speaker 03

  It's like, I don't, yeah, I don't mean, they were doing pistol hand gestures.

• 17:11Matt Abrahams?

  Oh, wow.

• 17:12Speaker 03

  I'm talking about how I defend myself with pepper spray.

• 17:14Matt Abrahams?

  Yes, yes.

• 17:15Speaker 03

  Cause it's non-lethal. Everybody gets to go home. You're gonna have to rinse your eyes out for two to three hours. But everybody goes home. And they're like,

• 17:23Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah.

• 17:24Speaker 03

  He's like, not me. You know, he's doing hand gestures and one of them was like, not me. And he does a hand gesture like, I just use my, my weapon.

• 17:32Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah.

• 17:32Speaker 03

  And then I'm like, yeah, that's a, you gotta live with that. I told him.

• 17:38Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah.

• 17:39Speaker 03

  You're saying that, but it's like, have you ever, and I asked, have you ever been put in a situation where you've had to use?

• 17:45Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 17:45Speaker 03

  He's like, nah. He said, I know cops.

• 17:49Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 17:50Speaker 03

  I know cops that have had to, they have quit the force because of the

• 17:54Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah.

• 17:54Speaker 03

  mental trauma of it.

• 17:56Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 17:56Speaker 03

  You know, and they're just supposedly defending their lives at the time, you know?

• 18:02Speaker 03

  And I was like, nah.

• 18:05Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah, it, it, it strikes me, I mean, I find this fascinating. You know, you're, you're a performer and yet it sounds to me like you, you, you're doing more than performing there. You're actually trying to connect and maybe even teach a lesson in it.

• 18:20Speaker 03

  I don't say teaching a lesson, that's for everybody's journey.

• 18:24Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah.

• 18:24Speaker 03

  I just, I just, one of the things that, that I feel is gonna get me to where I wanna go with this career is the fact that be present.

• 18:34Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah.

• 18:35Speaker 03

  Be present.

• 18:35Matt Abrahams?

  And respond to what's happening.

• 18:36Speaker 03

  Yes, I'm not just.

• 18:38Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  I'm not just staying quiet while you talk, waiting for me, just so I could just say what I wanna say. I wanna listen.

• 18:45Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  You know, that's why I'm able, I think you might've seen it there, I'm able to get off the whole joke.

• 18:51Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 18:52Speaker 03

  Address the situation that's happening in real time.

• 18:55Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah.

• 18:55Speaker 03

  And then come back and put the train right back on the tracks.

• 18:58Matt Abrahams?

  We talk about storytelling and we've talked a lot in this episode and the one prior about story. But it's also about the telling and I think he is a great example of how you have a strong presence. And he even talks about it, how he has to be present and listen and in the moment. Because his audience is not just responding to him, he's responding to them. That's what true engagement is. It's where both parties are equally involved. He varies his voice, he slows his pace, he speeds it up. When you see him perform live, which I have, he uses his body in terms of his gesturing. The actual telling, the way he shows is critical. So that non-verbal presence really matters. And I think this brings us

• 19:43Matt Abrahams?

  Full circle. We've talked about story. In our first episode, we talked about how we frame the story, how we think about our audience, how we think about emotion. And in the second episode, we've talked about how we actually engage in the tools of engagement. We've talked about it through the eyes of a cartoonist, a magician, a social media influencer, as well as a comedian. And they're all teaching us that by engaging the audience, being present, we form a connection. That connection has a physiological root to it. There are neurochemicals released, but there's also an emotional connection. And I really appreciate these learnings, and I think we can apply them all to our

• 20:27Matt Abrahams?

  everyday communication. As we wrap up this two-part Think Fast, Talk Smart series on unconventional, non-traditional storytellers, one of the things I hope everyone is taking away is that stories are hidden in plain sight. You've heard from several non-traditional storytellers. There are many that we encounter every day. I challenge all of us to look for the stories. Look for the means by which people are telling those stories. How are they structuring them? How are they engaging us? Learn from those and begin to use those techniques in your own authentic way, in your communication, in your storytelling.

• 21:08Matt Abrahams?

  And in so doing, we will all become more efficient, more effective, and more engaging in our communication.

• 21:20Matt Abrahams?

  Thank you for listening to this Think Fast, Talk Smart miniseries. This episode was produced by Jim Colgan, Jenny Luna, and me, Matt Abrahams. Mix engineering by Mumble Media. Special thanks to Dawn Fraser of the Stanford Storytelling Project. If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more about storytelling, please check out episode 168 with Matthew Dix and episode 50 with Paula Moya. You can hear complete episodes with some of our guests in this miniseries through our premium offering at fastersmarter.io/premium. Find more of our episodes on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, And our newsletter.

• 22:17Matt Abrahams?

  Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.