491: SLEDGEHAMMER. Eugene Sledge's son Henry Shares Lost Stories of The Old Breed 1st Marine Division.

>Join Jocko UndergroundHERE< https://amzn.to/45h266P The Old Breed… The Complete Story Revealed brings to life an abundance of new material from the original manuscript of Eugene Sledge’s classic memoir With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa. By interspersing his own personal anecdotes throughout, Henry Sledge takes his father’s work and gives it newfound context, sharing memories of conversations between father and son. The result is a flowing narrative that portrays an intimate look at a WWII veteran and his struggles to adapt to civilian life following the war. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 491 with Dave Berke and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Dave. Good evening.

• 0:07Jocko Willink?

  In the early morning light, word was passed that they had to move out and attack across the airfield.

• 0:15Jocko Willink?

  Quote, "Many of us had no water and ammunition supplies were low. We hoped supplies would come up before the attack. We were thirsty and we could not go much longer without water."

• 0:28Jocko Willink?

  A concentration of heavy machine gun fire swept over their gun pit. First, I distinctly heard three separate shots, crack, crack, crack, as the bullets passed over, quickly followed by the report of the gun. "That's a Hotchkiss," said Snafu as we ducked our heads. No sooner had he uttered the remark than the gunfire to long burst and tracers streaked over us and the slugs cracked as they went over, not more than a foot above ground level.

• 0:56Jocko Willink?

  Whether those Japanese heavy machine gunners were laying down harassing fire supporting another counterattack, or whether they actually observed our position by the muzzle flashes from our mortar, or saws by the light of the star shells, we couldn't know. End quote. My father knew that as soon as this machine gun fire ended, they were going to have to prepare to attack across the airfield.

• 1:24Jocko Willink?

  The thought of this filled him and all the Marines who would have to do it with dread.

• 1:35Jocko Willink?

  And that right there is an excerpt from a new book. The new book is called The Old Breed: The Complete Story Revealed and is written by a man named W. Henry Sledge.

• 1:52Jocko Willink?

  And if the name Sledge rings a bell, it should. Henry Sledge is the son of the legendary Marine Eugene Sledge, Sledgehammer. A mortar man from three, five Marines who fought the battles of Pelluloo and Okinawa, which were some of the most brutal, savage and bloody warfare in history. Thousands of men were killed, tens of thousands were wounded. The Japanese Imperial Army did not believe in surrender. So they fought to the death. And the Japanese rarely took prisoners.

• 2:32Jocko Willink?

  They executed our troops and mutilated their bodies. And in the face of that horror, some of our troops escalated their ferocity as well. And some committed acts that were outside the bounds of what is considered acceptable behavior by civilized society. And yet through all that, Eugene Sledge, son of a doctor from a good family, fought with tenacity, yet he maintained his humanity.

• 3:11Jocko Willink?

  And he wrote about his experiences in combat in a book called With the Old Breed at Pelluloo and Okinawa, a book lauded by some as the best memoir of World War II, and some as the best memoir of war ever written. It was one of the first books that we covered on this podcast. And that book is one of the books used as the basis for the incredible HBO series called The Pacific, which I always explain to me is the best movie about war.

• 3:53Jocko Willink?

  Eugene Sledge also wrote a book called China Marine. And this was a book that was about the time after the fighting had ceased. Where he served in post-war China and then his return home to Alabama. And the challenges of reintegrating with his family, with his friends, with civilian life. And we covered that book on Podcast 82. So Eugene Sledge passed on many lessons. Before he died in 2001. But there are more lessons to learn. There are more experiences to share. And in this new book, The Old Breed, the complete story revealed, his son, Henry,

• 4:37Jocko Willink?

  has assembled notes from his experiences with his father and sections from drafts that did not make it into the final version of the book with The Old Breed. And these experiences, these conversations, these memories of Henry's father give us a better understanding of war, of leadership, and truly of life. And it is an absolute honor to have Henry Sledge here with us tonight to discuss his new book and discuss his father Eugene Sledgehammer Sledge. Henry, thank you so much for joining us. It's an honor to have you here.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Thank you, Jocko. Really, really pleased to be here.

• 5:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, we had to take a moment just to say, we better press record because as soon as you walked in here, you saw the books we've got out here and we got a copy of the original book, The Old Breed, written by McMillan, which was, which came out in 1949. Just a really direct translation of what happened in the Pacific. And then, of course, I got my first edition copy of With the Old Breed by your dad. Now I've got your first edition copy. I've got China Marine over here. Your dad, you know, battle-tested, battle-proven Marine.

• 6:00Jocko Willink?

  Tested to the absolute limits of human endurance and yet gentle, kind, understanding, intellectually curious, just a tender-hearted man. His book is a masterpiece. And your book, you went and dug out the old manuscripts of it and then went through line by line and figured out what got cut, what got cut from your dad's book. That's kind of how you put it together.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Exactly. So I got my hands on the original unedited manuscript, which all my father's papers were in the archive or are in the archives at Auburn University. I have some great friends at Auburn. I contacted the people in special collections and his original unedited manuscript is actually in closed papers. So if someone, historians go there all the time to look at his letters and papers because they want to write about him or quote him in something, but they can't get to the original manuscript. Being in closed papers means only the family can see it. That's the typed version, which I, they electronically scanned and sent to me and then I printed out. But to see, they've got in this expandable

• 7:14Speaker 01

  folder, this stack of yellow legal pads, which is his handwritten. So I had to ask their permission, since it's in closed papers, if I could see it. And I told them what I wanted to do. You know, I'd had a conversation with my mom and she, I'd been on a podcast with somebody and she knew the passion that I had for my dad's legacy. And she said, you need to get your hands on that original manuscript because I think there's stuff in there that could add to the story. And so I did and sat down with, with the old breed in one hand and that manuscript in the other. And I'll, and I got, Jocko, I got as microscopic as I could. Like I highlighted everything and it was 820 pages. I had it printed out in

• 7:58Speaker 01

  200 page books, four of them, because I wanted a user-friendly format to go through and analyze this thing, to extract what I could to do what I felt like I needed to do. And the analogy I've used, and I hope this isn't getting too down in the weeds, but imagine like if you're really good at woodwork and you see it, you've got your shop, you got scraps of wood on the floor, you see a scrap of wood that somebody else might throw away. If you're good at woodwork, you can take that and finesse it into something else and use it, make it a thing of beauty. So to draw that analogy across, when I went through and I found sentences, not just entire anecdotes, but sentences that had been edited out, I thought, you know, that that could be pretty cool if I've worked that into my

• 8:43Speaker 01

  narrative. And so I got as microscopic as I could, but I ended up going through like five highlighters. And it took me a few months to go through all of it and highlight, you know, what got edited out. But that was the start of the process.

• 8:57Jocko Willink?

  And how long did the whole process take you?

• 8:59Speaker 01

  I started November 2021 of sitting down with it and doing the highlighting and it took me about three months to get through that. And then I went back through it and reread everything in its entirety and made brackets around what I thought I would want to use because there's a lot of stuff I didn't use. And, and, you know, like any, we talked about here a little while ago, when you're writing a book, I mean, there's a lot that I had to edit out when my agent said, look, man, we got to keep this thing around 110,000 words because when I finished my manuscript, like my narrative plus what I extracted of his, it was 164,000 words.

• 9:43Jocko Willink?

  It's a big book.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  My agent said, Henry, I will fight this fight for you any way you want, but that is going to be a big ass book. I don't think we want it that big. You want it to move, right? And I said, well, yeah, of course, man. I mean, I'm proud of this because it, people can see more of my dad. And so he said, let's try to get it to about 110,000 words. And so.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  My wife and son and I went to the beach and I'm like, this was, I'd already written it all and I'm like, "Okay, I gotta go through this thing and now start trimming it down." And so I did, but I mean, to give you an example, like, he wrote pages that I couldn't put in here about how ammunition was packaged and created. And I did bring some of that in, but you wouldn't believe how much, and it was really esoteric detail, but as I've told people, you know, if you're an infantryman and it's raining and been raining for two weeks and you're in knee-deep mud on Okinawa and you've got to hump infantry, or you've got to hump ammunition up to a fighting position

• 10:44Speaker 01

  from an ammunition dump and you're under constant Nambu fire, you're gonna be really interested in how that ammunition is packaged. And because he went into, you know, being a scientist and as observant as he was, he went into a lot of extremely arcane detail. And so when I made my final pass through, like, "Okay, I've gotta get this thing trimmed down to start looking for a publisher," some of that had to go, but I tried to keep the essence of it.

• 11:12Jocko Willink?

  It reminds me of, so in the military, you know, you have, you're gathering intel, you've got people gathering intel, right? And you're trying to paint as complete of a picture as you possibly can of whatever situation you're going into. And that's why every little, when we would debrief after a mission, you're trying to capture every little detail because, you know, it might not be a big deal if I walk into a building and, "Oh yeah, there was a red carpet on the floor." And then it doesn't mean anything to me and we happen to find some demolition, some enemy demolitions underneath it, right? IED-making material. Well, I didn't figure to report the red carpet. Well, Dave does a mission and he also doesn't report that

• 11:54Jocko Willink?

  there's a red carpet. Well, we don't know it, but that's what the enemy is using to signify where they're hiding their explosives and you have to assemble that information. So these little scraps of wood that you're talking about, they start to paint a picture. And then that makes me think of Gettysburg. So I've been to Gettysburg many, many times and that, you get, you, these little tiny details. And one detail that I know that I brought up at Gettysburg when we take groups there is,

• 12:24Jocko Willink?

  Something called a single last shoe. So I have a, a company, we make boots, right? And so the last is what you, the last is like a, a form that you make the boot around. Well, in modern times, we have a left last for your left foot and a right last for your right foot. Well, the soldiers in the civil war, they use boots that were made on a single last, which means there was no difference between the left boot and the right boot. And then they were had wooden soles. And so, you know, you sit there and you tell people, "Hey, these guys were marching 30 miles a day on, uh, what was it?

• 13:05Jocko Willink?

  920 calories of hard tack and crackers." And then that sounds really bad. And then you say, "And by the way, they had wooden soles on their shoes. And by the way, it's a single last." And everyone goes, "What's a single last?" It's the same shoe on the left and right foot. And people start to realize the suffering. So when you're talking about your dad and when you're having to carry ammunition under heavy Japanese fire, and I remember this part of the book where you're talking about like, if there's barely enough room on this one ammo case to get your fingernails. Yeah, that was the 30 ball. Yeah, the 30 ball, you can barely get your fingernails in there to carry it. And so it's just a poor design and who's going to suffer? Well, the people in the factory don't care. It's a little smaller, it's a little easier for them to load in the truck.

• 13:48Jocko Willink?

  But you get that thing out in the field, uh, you, you start to realize what an impact it has. And that's what I, you know, there's obviously, there's a lot of information about the Pacific campaign. There's a lot of information about Palau and Okinawa. And yet you still get an even clearer picture from your book. And you still get a better understanding. And if anyone's watched the Pacific, you start going, "Oh, okay. So there, there's little indications in the Pacific." And again, this is something we talked about before we hit record. When you make a movie, stuff just gets cut, whole storylines get cut, characters get cut. And you look up and it just has to happen for the movie. You can't make a, a movie that's, you know, a hundred hours long. Right.

• 14:33Jocko Willink?

  And so things get cut, but you can see little indicators in the movie. And then little indicators in With the Old Breed and you go, "Oh." And then your expansion on it and the details, it just takes it to a whole nother level of comprehension of what, of what's, what the guys went through. Right. It's.

• 14:52Jocko Willink?

  It's another level of, of context and depth and meaning to the original book and to the Pacific and to anyone that thinks about history and World War II. This is just an epic account.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Well, that's when you speak of Pellul, you know, so much has been written about it and it is a fascinating campaign in its own right. When I was growing up and my dad was writing with the old breed, you know, it was referred to as the forgotten battle. And that was, that was something that I think embittered him because, not because he personally suffered there, but because like any good military man, he's thinking about his buddies who didn't make it home. But after the Pacific, which I thought did a phenomenal job of showing the amphibious, the viciously opposed amphibious landing, after the way my dad wrote about it, the visceral, detail oriented way that he wrote about it and with the old breed,

• 15:52Speaker 01

  you know, when I sat down and started going through that, I couldn't replicate with the old breed. I mean, that was the thing. I mean, it was, I was really trying to be careful to bring something to the fore that, that would give, like you said, additional color and context and depth to Sledgehammer's story without just somebody going, well, I mean, it's just, he's just re-quoting his father. You know, I tried to reproduce what my father said in my own words to maintain the flow of the narrative, but there, and I was really happy when I went back and I just, God, I had to go through it so many times and read it again and again and again to make sure, okay, I've got to bring people something

• 16:34Speaker 01

  from my dad that they haven't heard before. And so, you know, everything in bold is what didn't get published with the old breed. And so, and I felt like, you know, okay, what was different about the landing at Pellul? It was pretty cool to, to really get down in the weeds with it and analytical and see that, you know, when they were going in on the Amtrax, like they went.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Up on a reef and down in deeper water, up on a reef, you know, and because he talked about how they were bumping into each other and that really could feel the OVT just structurally being strained, you know, but it was a robust vehicle and it could take it. But the way it was edited originally and published with the old breed, you know, they lurch up over the reef and then settle down into deeper water and then start taking in an amine mortar fire. And what, from reading the unpublished material, I was able to illustrate that that happened, but it actually happened two or three times. It wasn't just this quick, oh, here's the reef, now we're over it into deeper water on into the beach.

• 17:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, those, those little details that come out are, they, they just, like I said, add so much, um, so much more context, so much more meaning. It's, it's, it's epic to read. And for me, uh, you know, we, I like, I like when I know the characters, right? Like, we know the characters in this, starting with your dad and right on down the line. So you, you're jumping into a story that you're already familiar with, and yet you're going to get so much more out of it. Um, yeah, let's get into a little bit. Let's get into the book. Um, starting here, it says, "One pleasant spring afternoon, my parents were driving down Spring Hill Avenue in Mobile, Alabama, when my mother saw something in the middle of the road. It was a squirrel that had been run over by another car when it had tried to dart across the street.

• 18:16Jocko Willink?

  It was eviscerated, bloody, and barely recognizable. As they drove past it, she remarked, 'Oh, that poor squirrel.' My father, preoccupied with typical things that would be on the mind of a young, recently married husband, barely acknowledged it. This surprised her, and she glanced at him. He shrugged. I had friends that looked worse than that." So, is this your mom telling you that story later on? Is that, is that where that comes from?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  It, it is. I heard her tell that story, but she also told it in some HBO interviews when we were interviewed for the, the ramp up to the Pacific mini-series. And to, of course, I, you know, my mom had this delightful, soft, southern accent, you know, and to hear her say, well, shug, I had friends that looked worse than that. And to hear her tell it, she said, "In that moment, I, you know, like that was a lightbulb for her." Because think about it, I mean, that's still that point in time when so many World War II veterans, I mean, World War II veterans were everywhere and a lot of them were very taciturn about what they had seen and done and some didn't talk about it at all. And then, you

• 19:24Speaker 01

  know, some did. My father, as it turned out, fortunately turned out to be one who did. But in that moment, and this was long before my brother came along, or I came along, I think that was a bit of a wake up call. I actually realized, damn, he's seen some pretty rough stuff.

• 19:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And you add into that the fact that like what, what we see today in the media. I mean, you can go on YouTube right now and you can go watch combat that's taking place in Ukraine, all just completely unfiltered combat, mutilated bodies, the whole nine yards. You know, 1947, that didn't exist. And so, and even the news, you know, there was very limited release of images, you know, they actually used Tarawa when the, when the bodies washed up on Tarawa, they used that to try and drive sales of war bonds and, and to let people know that this was no easy task. But imagine that you, you get to Tarawa before you finally say, hey, it's pretty rough over here.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:22Jocko Willink?

  So for your mom to kind of be a little bit disconnected and be surprised, that's

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Well, and you, you refer to that footage at Tarawa, I mean, which Tarawa was just this horrific storm landing with the Second Marine Division, you know, and that was a bit of a wake up call to, to the home front to see, and there's an early picture of dead army soldier or dead soldiers on the, on the beaches at New Guinea, I think Bona, I'm not sure about that. But pictures like that of dead American Marines and soldiers, that was a shock to the home front because we didn't have that level of desensitization that maybe we have now due to exactly what you're talking about, Jocko. I mean, there's a proliferation of everything in the media, the blood, gore, violence, whatever you want,

• 21:07Speaker 01

  you can find it in 1946 or seven or nine or whatever, you know, that would have been, you know, my parents got married in 1952, but that wasn't there then.

• 21:21Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on here, fast forward a little bit. In the years after the war, my father often had nightmares. He would wake in a cold sweat, pulse racing. My mother may have found this somewhat unsettling at first, but she knew he had been a Marine in the Pacific, had seen heavy combat, and had somehow survived against an enemy renowned for creeping around at night trying to slip into a man's foxhole and cut his throat. She talked to his, she talked to his friends of his who were veterans themselves. One of these was Sid Phillips, also from Mobile. He told her that he had nightmares too, because they had dealt with the enemy infiltrators every night on the canal. Sid advised her not to touch him when he was asleep.

• 22:01Jocko Willink?

  My mother asked, "What do I do if I need him in the middle of the night?" Sid answered, "I'll tell you what to do. Lean over and whisper in his ear, sledgehammer."

• 22:11Jocko Willink?

  The ways combat veterans dealt with their trauma varied from individual to individual. Some tried to suppress it, turned to alcohol, some probably took it out on their families, and my father started to write. He would get up in the middle of the night and go sit by the fireplace in the living room. He had a small New Testament Bible through the entire war in the pocket of his dungaree jacket. And in it, he kept and made notes about locations, dates, and weather conditions. He also kept notes on pieces of paper that he tucked in the Bible. Not long after he got home, he had written a detailed outline with all this information, armed with this, a pencil as sharp as his memory, and a yellow legal pad, he started writing what was to become his classic memoir, With the Old Breed.

• 22:52Jocko Willink?

  Now, you allude to it, but writing for therapy. This is something that I have recommended to a lot of people. I, I know that I, I kind of stumbled upon this, this type of therapy in the fact that when I, when I've lost friends and lost guys.

• 23:16Jocko Willink?

  I was often the guy that was gonna stand up and give the eulogy at a memorial service. And I didn't think of it the first time, the second time, the third time, but I started to realize a pattern of when you sit down, you write, you get emotional when you write and you start to put your emotions and your thoughts and your feelings down on a piece of paper. It's a form of detachment and I think it's very helpful and, and one of my friends died, who was in, in 2017, a friend of mine named Seth Stone, he was one of my platoon commanders in Iraq and he was kinda like a part of the family, you know, he was like a part of my

• 23:58Jocko Willink?

  family, maybe like a little brother to me, maybe like a little bit of a son to me and which made him very close with my son. When my son was, you know, seven, eight, nine, 10 years old, we would surf together and when Seth, Seth was killed in a parachute accident and when he died, a few months went by and, uh, my son, who is now probably at that time 13 or 14 years old, after a couple of months, he came home and he said, "Dad, you know, I'm, I'm thinking about, I'm, I'm sitting in class and I'm trying to think about the work that we're doing, but I keep thinking about Seth and it's, it's hard to concentrate." And I said, "Well," and I thought about that experience I had

• 24:42Jocko Willink?

  of writing, so I said, "I want, I want you to write him a letter and write his mom a letter and say, "Well, this is what you missed, this is what you cared about, this is what you loved about Seth, this is what you want to tell him and do that." And my son did it and after he did that, he never, you know, he, he carried on. And so I think your dad writing this, I'm imagining probably had a similar effect.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I think the writing was definitely a catharsis, a cathartic process. Um, I have talked about that because I firmly believe it and that's, you know, getting up in the middle of the night, seeing him sitting in front of the fireplace with one of our dogs there on the floor snoozing away. I mean, that, that's a really, a really pleasant memory and I mean, it's, it's evocative, you know, I mean, when I, when I think about like the grandfather clock we had on the mantle and I still remember that.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  The sound that thing would make and my dad's sitting there, you know, Holly, the doxen, which I talk about her a lot because God, she was there for all of it. She's over there snoozing away and my dad is sitting there scribbling away. And here's a guy who has made it home to a good life. He's got this, his beautiful wife, my mom asleep in the next room. He's got his two boys, my brother and me asleep in the bedrooms and he's sitting there in the embrace of Kith and Ken, writing, and he has to take him back, he has to take himself back to a place where you guys know what I'm talking about because you've been through

• 26:27Speaker 01

  it, but he's imagining, he's got to mentally put himself back into the place where it was the worst time in his life. And, you know, we, and if I'm getting into this too soon, we can go back and revisit, but when, when you write something like what he says about Pellul, Pellul eroded the veneer of civilization and made savages of us all. I mean, I think about to be, you know, the dichotomy of you're in that safe place, a father and a husband, but you've got to mentally get back to deal with that and factually get it correct and tell that story in a way that your buddies who think about it, he knew all his friends

• 27:12Speaker 01

  were probably going to read with the old breed because they were all in there, you know, younger than I am now at that point in time. I mean, that was a real mental burden for him, which helps explain why when it got published, you know, I talk about a letter I read that he had written to Stumpy Stanley, who took over K Company after Captain Haldane was killed on Pellul. And he said, you know, the, with the old breed's about to be published, I can lay my pen down and focus on my family, my career. And this has been an unpleasant task.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  And yet he had to take that burden on and, and deal with it, you know, masterfully.

• 28:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I'm just gonna, I just can't let this slide. Cause you might try and do this again. You cannot say that we know what it was like. Like I'm sitting here with Dave Berke. Like just, just so you know, we, we, we will not accept what, what these guys did was far and away. Beyond anything that we, uh, ever experienced.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Well, you have a better idea than I do. Vicariously through my dad, but you know.

• 28:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a, just, I just wanted to make sure that I make that clear. There's no, there's no, there's no one sitting at this table. That, um, believes we did anything even remotely close to, to what, to what these guys did. Um, just fast forward a little bit. Your brother John's born in 1957. Uh, your dad gets his PhD in biology, the University of Florida, uh, moved to Montevallo. Am I saying that right?

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Montevallo.

• 28:57Jocko Willink?

  Montevallo in 1962. You're born in 1965. He's an assistant professor of biology. This is when you're watching him write. You're watching him write. Uh, they built their dream home on Cardinal Crest Road.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:10Jocko Willink?

  Got some property and your mom has to start typing this. Your mom.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:16Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if she got volunteered for this duty.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  She got, she got voluntold as we say. Yeah, she, well, and you know, she, and she passed away November 2022, Jocko, but she. I did not know that until, you know, we were talking about it and I said, uh, take me back, mom to. You know, when you started typing the manuscript. She said, well, you know, only type the Pella Loop part. Your dad's secretary at the University of Montevallo typed the Okinawa part because then he got a grant. So that, that took over into secretary type the rest of it. But she said, yeah, I, she said at first I didn't want to do it. And now you gotta think about it that we didn't have cell phones and laptops. I mean, my dad did not know how to type.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  And so he's writing this manuscript and, and she said, he, he came to me and said, will you type this? So that the boys will have something more, cause his writing was really kind of hard to read, to be honest. And she told me, she said, Henry, I really didn't want to do it. And she said, but he told me, well, Shug, if you don't do it, I'm gonna have to pay somebody to do it. So I started doing you know, and

• 30:24Jocko Willink?

  And she was the one that originally said after she started typing it like, hey, this isn't just a memoir for the kids.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:30Jocko Willink?

  You should publish this thing.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  My mother was a very wise and prescient lady. And again, as I have said, my mother inspired me to write that, my book. She inspired my dad was always gonna write With the Old Breed. That book was in him and was going to be told, but she inspired him to get it published.

• 30:55Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. I thought this was just awesome. I recently saw a copy of a letter that he had written to two of his marine buddies in 1980. At that point, the book was on the verge of being released. In that letter, he said he'd spent the last several years obsessing about the most unpleasant years of his life, recalling events, names and details, the most horrific things that had ever happened to him and his fellow Marines because he felt driven to tell the world what they experienced. The book was written, he said in this letter, and he was ready to lay down his pen and get on with his life. And this is what you were just talking about, to focus on his family, his career. Since he had it all down on paper, he felt he had done what he'd set out to do, divested himself of those things that were bottled up and trying to get out. Now he could forget about it and move on. In the fall of 2021, while preparing for a podcast episode, I found an old letter tucked inside the pages of The

• 31:40Jocko Willink?

  Old Breed, A History of the First Marine Division in World War II by George McMillan. McMillan. Dated June 21, 1982, this letter was apparently a response to the copy of my father's new book, With the Old Breed, that he had sent to McMillan for his review. Short and concise, it read. So just to set that up again, this book, The Old Breed, is the, I think it's like an authorized history of the First Marine Division in World War II.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 32:12Jocko Willink?

  That's what this is. And it's an epic book. It's got pictures, it's got photographs, it's got drawings and paintings. It is an epic book.

• 32:21Jocko Willink?

  And it's almost the kind of book that, you know, you would think would sit at the top of the, of the hierarchy of books about this situation. And he gets, so your dad gets this letter. It says, Dear Gene, you've written a good book. It reeks with humility. It reeks with the humility of a good infantryman, one who has seen the worst of the battle. It is honest and it is true. The photo of you on the dust jacket is great. Made me nearly weep with nostalgia. Made me think of all the days I sat like that on my cot at Pavuvu. Something makes me think that the book is going to carve out a place for itself in World War II literature.

• 33:05Jocko Willink?

  You haven't heard the last of it. Let me know well in advance of the bantam publication date. Maybe I can hit some kind of lick then. I'm honored you used Old Breed in your title and grateful for the dedication. Now write us another good book. Semper Fi, George.

• 33:27Jocko Willink?

  So he appreciated that, that he had used the Old Breed in the title. I mean, that's just a, an epic statement from McMillan.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  So here's a bit of trivia and Dave, you being a marine aviator. Have you ever heard of a book called History of USMC Aviation in World War II by Robert Sherrod? I definitely know that book. I can't tell you the details. A hundred percent. It is, Robert Sherrod is who suggested to him. Wow. Okay. I remember my dad tell, cause you know.

• 33:56Jocko Willink?

  Wait, Robert Sherrod has suggested use the, the name with the Old Breed?

• 34:00Speaker 01

  To, to my dad, well, use something the Old Breed in, in the title. I believe my dad told me that Robert Sherrod is the one who suggested to him that he do that. And that, that book, I mean, could because World War II airplanes, World War II aviation, marine, aviator, Corsairs, I mean, you will, God, we're just, I'm jumping ahead. All in there too. Yeah.

• 34:22Jocko Willink?

  And your dad, your dad got rejected. Uh, you know, you, you talking here about, you know, he got the rejection letter and your dad said, that's that. And then he heard from the third publisher, Presidio Press, the book was to be published. Need to cut it down to 300 pages, which we already talked about. And that's what got published from, um. From the original manuscript, you say this, "My father's nightmare now rarely, my father's nightmares now rarely occurred. Visions of dead Marines rising out of their rain-filled foxholes in the shell-torn mud fields of Okinawa, forlornly silent, moving about in their lurid, eerie, greenish light of shell stars, of star shells, swaying from their parachutes, the descriptions of which still move me to tears, seemed laid to rest."

• 35:06Jocko Willink?

  So, so your dad, you, you saw healing from your dad after the book came out. Is that accurate statement?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  I think that's accurate. Um, and you know, I talk about that, that is, God, that is so powerful that, well, to stick to your question, I did see healing. I, you know, I, I think when With the Old Breed got published, um, he hadn't been in touch prior to writing it with his former Marine buddies. And you know, I think I hear that from other veterans in their interviews that a lot of those guys came home and just got on with their lives. You know, and my dad had not corresponded with Jay Delo or, or Bill Layden, or Snafu, you know, or Stumpy Stanley until he started writing with the Old Breed. And he reached out to them because he wanted them to be, he wanted them, he wanted them to see what he was doing to make sure he did it right.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  And, and he would be the first guy to say, "Look, you know, I was a 60 millimeter mortarman. You know, the riflemen were the tip of the spear. We were right behind them. And as I found out from going through the unpublished material, you know, there were a lot of times that the mortarmen were pulled into duty as riflemen. It happened on Okinawa quite a bit.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  But my dad being the kind of guy that he was, as he pointed out in his book, you know, the riflemen were the brunt of it. We were maybe 20 yards behind him or sometimes more. But to, to your question, Jocko, I mean, yeah, I did see healing. I mean, when, when With the Old Breed was published and began to garner attention,

• 36:39Speaker 01

  he began to, to get those phone calls, you know, from, from fellow K Company Marines and,

• 36:46Speaker 01

  and that was, it was funny to watch that because my dad did not like to talk on the phone. Um, but we'd be at the dinner table and the phone would ring and he hated the phone anyway, but he'd, you know, one of us would get it, "Hey dad, it's for you." And he's like, "Oh, god damn." You know, and you know, or it'd be one of his buddies, Bill Laden or somebody and he'd go in the other room and close the door and just be in there for three hours and you'd hear him guff on and, and you know, reliving the good stuff. And I mean, that was cool to see that.

• 37:22Jocko Willink?

  So we kind of talked about how you, uh, how you move forward with this and, and, and let's get into the book now itself. Pearl Harbor happens. Your dad was a freshman at Marion Military Institute and on December 3rd, 1942 enlisted in the United States Marine Corps. And there's the whole, there's the whole backstory of his dad having been in the medical corps in World War I and really not wanting your dad to go, but at least become an officer.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:56Jocko Willink?

  And, and just classic, you say, "Life as a college boy Marine, though easy, though easy rapidly became intolerable. Half of the 180 man detachment, my father among them, deliberately flunked out so they could go into the Marine Corps as enlisted men." Soon enough, he was headed to Marine Corps boot camp in San Diego, California. It was there, he would meet his drill instructor, Corporal Darity.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Darity?

• 38:21Jocko Willink?

  Darity. Darity, and become part of platoon 984. Just incredible. You had all these guys, was it 180, 180 people and half of them fail out so they can go into war immediately.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, well, and the whole, so my grandfather having been, and my grandfather was not overseas. He stayed stateside during World War I, but he, you know, back then they called him shell shock victims. And my grandfather dealt with a lot of shell shock victims. And of course, the, the guy played, who I think brilliantly plays my grandfather in the Pacific. And he says, "Eugene, the worst thing about treating those victims from the Great Wall was not that they'd had their flesh torn, but their flesh, their souls torn out." You know, that is exactly the kind of thing, as we understood the kind of man my grandfather was, that he would have said. And I thought that scene was beautifully filmed and beautifully played by that actor.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  But my dad's older brother, my uncle Edward, had gone to the Citadel and graduated and was a Army Tank Platoon Commander on Sherman Tanks. So, as my father put it, and I think he, I think he wrote this one with the old breed and I quoted him saying it in my book, they, they said, "Life would be more beautiful as an officer." So, just don't enlist, you know, but he was an impetuous youngster, as they all were, and you know.

• 39:50Jocko Willink?

  Yes, indeed. Yeah, and then you had Sid Phillips who was writing him back saying, "Hey, don't even join the Girl Scouts. Don't join anything."

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Don't volunteer for anything.

• 39:59Jocko Willink?

  Don't volunteer for anything. You know, it's funny, I had, when we had Dean Ladd on, who was going into Tarawa, and I was asking him, he's got, he's got a book, Faithful Warrior, and I'm, you know, we're reading the book and, and we're getting, he's getting ready to go into Tarawa, and you know, they're expecting crazy 80% casualties or something. And I said, you know, were you worried about getting wounded? And he just, without missing a beat, goes, "No, that always happens to the other guy." Which is, and that stuck with me because that's what we all think, you know, that's what we all think for, for at least some amount of time. You think, "It ain't happening to me." Especially when you're 18, 17, 18. Sid Phillips, what, 17?

• 40:39Speaker 01

  17, 18, turned 18 on Guadalcanal.

• 40:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Alright, so your dad takes off, eight grueling weeks of intensive training, graduated from Requiem Boot Camp, and here's, here's a quote from your dad, "At this period, there's a great deal of talk and speculation. Where do we go from here? Scuttlebutt was rampant. One man heard that we would be in the Pacific jungles within two weeks." The rumor mill going.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:06Jocko Willink?

  Uh, fast forward a little bit, and look, I'm obviously not going to read this whole, but there's an audiobook coming.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Actually, I believe there is.

• 41:14Jocko Willink?

  Are you gonna do the, you've already thrown out some good, uh, some good accents today. You better be reading this audio book.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Actually, no, I think they, well, my publisher, he and I talked and he, I mean, he said, you know, Henry, I don't know that I want to do an audio book, you know, I love my publisher's grades from New York, you know, so talking to him, it's, it's really cool.

• 41:33Jocko Willink?

  See, even that was pretty good. You got the New York thing going.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Because, you know, and I said, well, honestly, Anthony, I think we want a voice actor to, to do it because just I've done some voice work and I enjoy it, but, and I mean, really.

• 41:46Jocko Willink?

  So you haven't recorded? Has anyone recorded this yet?

• 41:49Speaker 01

  I think it's being done, Jocko. Actually, I think it is happening.

• 41:52Jocko Willink?

  If it's not happening, you should a hundred percent do this.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Well, if somebody would say, okay, Henry, we'll pay you to do it and you can retire from your day job, then I'd be happy to take it on, but I haven't seen anybody step up to do that yet.

• 42:03Jocko Willink?

  No one's gonna pay you to do it.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Some of the accents in there, man, I mean, I, I just, I mean, I can even hear my dad say things the way he said it. You know, because he had a really distinctive way of talking, but.

• 42:15Jocko Willink?

  How'd you like the actor that played, uh, your dad?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  I thought Joe did a good job.

• 42:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  You know, I thought he captured the essence of the character. And I mean, look, I've been on some podcasts with some of the actors from the Pacific and I'm friends with some of those guys and, you know, that, I thought Joe did a fine job.

• 42:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I thought he was fantastic, you know.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, he, yeah, he captured the essence of the man.

• 42:38Jocko Willink?

  Yep. There's a, I guess the closest comparison I have to that, there's a movie called American Sniper, where there's a, a guy named Bradley, Bradley Cooper, Bradley Cooper, I believe is the actor that portrays Chris Kyle. And, you know, it's this situation where, you know, you actually knew your dad. So you can compare the real guy to the actor. And I actually knew Chris Kyle, so I compared the real guy.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 43:06Jocko Willink?

  To the actor. And dude, Bradley Cooper did.

• 43:11Jocko Willink?

  A pretty impressive job and you'd sometimes I'd hear it. I go, wow, that it. He did a really good job. Uh, it's a little strange because the, the movie itself portrays Chris as a character who is very serious and very foreboding. And Chris was actually like a wise ass and really funny. And if they would have brought that in, it would have been even more like Chris Kyle. Uh, but you know, just watching interviews with your dad and seeing the actor play your dad. I thought he captured it. And I will say the, the nuances of fear. And, you know, like Dave and I

• 43:55Jocko Willink?

  are saying, oh yeah, we didn't, we didn't experience what your dad went through or anything close to that. But I know what it's like to roll out down the, down the road when there's a, there's a chance that you're going to get blown up. Like I, I definitely know that feeling. And so if I take that feeling and multiply it by a lot, and I look at the actor playing your dad and I go, yeah, that, that's probably pretty close. And I've seen that look on some guys before. They're, they're scared and it sucks. So yeah, I thought, uh, buddy did a great job.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I, I thought his portrayal was, was really good. And I mean, look,

• 44:32Speaker 01

  yeah, I, I felt really good about it. And I know he took it very seriously and it was an important role for him to play. Um, yeah.

• 44:41Jocko Willink?

  Role, a role of a lifetime. Um, fast forward a little. My, my father reflected on the most recent Marine Corps campaign and saw that the second division suffered terrible losses. 3,381 dead and wounded. Its Marines killed all but 17 of the 4,386 Japanese defenders of the tiny Atoll.

• 45:05Jocko Willink?

  There was loud and severe criticism of the Marine Corps by the American public and some members of the military because of the number of casualties. This was just heating up in the press when I got to Camp Elliott. We were all interested in what had happened and questioned our instructors about it. Everyone agreed that there can be no element of surprise in attacking a tiny island in mid-ocean. Losses would be high, but adequate numbers of amphibious tractors could get troops successfully across the reefs that surrounded most of the islands in the Central Pacific. We hope numerous Amtraks would be available when we got overseas. That is crazy. And, um, you know, recently there's a movie that just came out. It's called Warfare. Have you heard of this movie?

• 45:47Speaker 01

  I have heard of it, but not intimately familiar.

• 45:49Jocko Willink?

  So the movie is about some SEALs that deployed to Ramadi and they're actually the SEALs that took my, got me and my guys' place. So we left October 21st. That whole movie's about one mission that happened November 19th. Two guys got really severely wounded and it was a really bad day and a couple Iraqi soldiers got killed. But we talked about it. They were, I had a couple of guys that got wounded, Joe Hildebrand and Elliott Miller on the podcast. And we were talking about, you know, my, my troop, my task unit being in Ramadi. We, we had the first SEAL killed in Iraq. We had the second SEAL killed in Iraq. We had guys get severely wounded and their mentality, what, what it was like for them.

• 46:32Jocko Willink?

  You know, they're going to, they're going to my guys' funerals here and then they're getting ready to go on deployment and take our place. And now we're talking about you're reading that there's 3,381 dead and wounded. Like it is just a totally different story that these, that, that your dad and those Marines are getting into at this point.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Well, yeah. I mean, when you look at Tarawa, so small and yet such an intensely concentrated loss of life. And I mean, there's a great book about Tarawa called Utmost Savagery, written by Joseph Alexander. And my son is named after Joe Alexander. Joe was a personal friend of mine. We went to Peleliu together in 1999. Just a great guy. And, and my wife adored him. He adored my, I was dating my wife at the time. And we're sitting down on one of the beaches at Peleliu after a day of exploring in the jungle. And this is really, I hope, not going too far off course, but.

• 47:28Jocko Willink?

  You can't go too far off course here.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Well, if you've heard of Joe Alexander, I mean,

• 47:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  just a wonderful family friend. And he, my wife is the one who inspired me to go to Peleliu on that trip. And like I said, she was my girlfriend at the time. But, you know, he, he and I were talking about that. He goes, oh, what the hell are you waiting on, Henry? Why don't you marry this girl? She sounds like a good catch, you know, but, but yeah, Joe wrote Utmost Savagery, which is a stunning work on Tar, on Tarawa, or Tarawa, if you prefer to pronounce it that way. And then another great book, which I quote from Storm Landings. And, you know, the, the thing about Tarawa was it, it was a storm landing. It was an amphibious assault into the teeth of prepared defenses that were very concentrated, interlocking fields of fire by a fanatical enemy who knew how to exploit the topography

• 48:17Speaker 01

  to the nth degree and knew you were coming. You know, Guadalcanal was a vicious battle and went on and on and on for months and encompassed air, sea, land, everything, all the elements. But Guadalcanal is a very large island. And it really was an entire ecosphere into itself, you know, something like Tarawa, something like Peleliu or Iwo Jima later, they know you're coming. And so I think Tarawa was just that enormous loss of life that, you know, and it didn't help that they didn't have enough LVTs and then experienced the Neap Tide and, and, you know, things that have been disseminated and analyzed

• 49:02Speaker 01

  in ensuing years that we know about now, but at the time they didn't.

• 49:09Jocko Willink?

  Um, fast forward a little bit on February 28th, 1944, they lined up to bo- uh, to board a troop ship in the San Diego Harbor. Quote, "I had seen many ocean-going vessels in Mobile Harbor, but the president poke appeared to be, appeared to me to be about the largest passenger ship I'd ever seen," end quote.

• 49:31Jocko Willink?

  This was interesting to me. And again, these are like these little details. "The threat of patrolling enemy submarines was ever present, and a fully loaded troop ship presented a very desirable target. It was for this reason that the men were strictly forbidden to throw over any type of trash, and anyone who disobeyed would suffer severe punishment." Quote, "We were warned that even a cigarette butt, match, or candy wrapper might be seen on the ocean by patrolling submarine." Naturally, everyone was very cooperative concerning trash disposal. I guess this hit me because, uh, in the Navy, they just throw the garbage. Oh, like I've done a bunch of shipboard deployments and they just take the trash and throw it overboard. And here they were not even thrown over a cigarette butt. Totally different timeframe.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. When I, when I came across that little like that, you know, that was obviously edited out of with the old breed and not being critical of the way that was handled and edited because obviously it's a classic for good reason. But when I saw that, I thought, man, that's, that's a pretty minute piece of information. It's really kind of inform- it's kind of informative and interesting, you know?

• 50:38Jocko Willink?

  Uh, again, get the book on fast forward and stuff. There's that little detail. There's just detail after detail. Just, it's fascinating to read. Uh, fast forward a little bit. They arrive on, on Pavuvu. Around 0900 the next morning, June 3rd, 1944, my father made his way down the gangplank with his sea bag containing all his personal gear. He headed toward a line of waiting trucks and saw some men, very tanned and good spirits, waiting to leave the island. Quote, "Some had Japanese weapons as souvenirs. I asked if there was anyone from H Company, Second Battalion, First Marines, and two men near me said, 'Yes.' I asked if Sid Phillips and Bill Brown were still on pavu. The first man said he didn't know, but his buddy spoke up and said, 'You know them. They're the, they're an 81mm mortar platoon.' Oh yeah,

• 51:22Jocko Willink?

  replied the first. Bill shoved off for the States about a week ago, and Phillips will probably go in a couple of weeks. I couldn't wait to see my oldest, to see one of my oldest and closest friends. Sid had enlisted in Marine Corps right out of high school, gone overseas with the First Marine Division as a gunner on the 81mm mortars, had his 18th birthday on Guadalcanal, and made it through Cape Gloucester." Again, it's just hearing these characters that we know and learning more about them. And I, I didn't realize this, I picked it up from the book, but the reason your dad and Sid were the same age, but your dad had to, he was sick and missed some school or something like that, so he's a little behind him in school?

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, my dad was a sickly child. He had malaria and rheumatic fever as, as a kid. And so, and actually, my mother reminded me of this as I was writing, as I was putting all this together, she reminded me of this when she was still in pretty good shape before she got sick and passed away. Uh, my dad did his entire fifth grade year from a wheelchair. You know, and so, number one, the fact that he overcame the heart murmur, you know, and was able to go into the Marine Corps was extraordinary. And then that he was able to make it through Marine Corps training because he, he was, he was a sickly child, you know, and entire fifth grade year from a wheelchair. Um, but he obviously did recover from that, but, uh...

• 52:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy seeing those old pictures of Sid Phillips. Man, he, he looks young. He looks young over there. It's crazy to think about. Uh, fast forward a little bit. While most of the men were assigned to rifle platoons of K company, they were asked if they had any special weapons training, meaning mortars or machine guns. My father was in a group of about 15 who had this specialized training. They were taken aside. Quote, "The lieutenant asked each of us what weapon we had trained with, and if we wanted to be assigned to that type of weapon in the company. Most of the guys said they were interested in doing so. Then he said, "I need a volunteer to serve as flamethrower gunner. This is a responsible position. You will command the respect of everyone in your outfit. There are only two flamethrower gunners in each line company.

• 53:31Jocko Willink?

  It takes a tough man to carry this weapon," end quote. At this point, the officer looked at my father and asked him his weapon choice. Wincing at the thought of carrying 70 pounds of flammable, jellied gasoline on his back for the rest of the war, my father answered that he had trained on the 60 millimeter mortar. Quote, "The officer looked at the boy next to me and asked him if he would be interested in being a flamethrower gunner. He said he would do it. And lieutenant said, "Fine. This boy was named Steel. He was 17 years old, lean, about six feet tall. Steel and I were to become close friends. Poor Steel was destined to become one of the men in K company killed on Pellalu. He was trying to knock out a Japanese bunker with his flamethrower just after we got off the Amtrax. I doubt if he ever saw a Japanese before he was killed."

• 54:21Jocko Willink?

  You know, you, um, that's one of the things that your dad talks about is the arithmetic of war. And just like, this is something Dave and I definitely can, can understand, which is, there's just odds. And at some point, if you are out there with the enemy, at some point, there's just a chance that the arithmetic of war is going to catch up with you. And, and here's a guy, you know, volunteers for this position, probably never even saw a Japanese before he was killed.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you know, when I researched that and, and came across that part, I was really happy to be able to bring that man's name into my book because that got edited out, you know? That's in bold, in bold type. So that got edited out with the old read, but.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  I thought, and you know, the way, I think in with the old breed, my dad says, you know, the lieutenant asked for volunteers to carry, and I try, quote, I tried to appear too small to carry a flamethrower. So, and my dad was not a big guy, five nine, 140 pounds, 135 pounds, you know. But it sounds like when I read the unedited material, I mean, it sounds like he was about to get picked. The way I took it, you know, like, hey, what's your training? You know, 60 millimeter waters. I mean, that's the way I took that. So, which, I mean, there were bigger guys, kind of military like figures he'd pick the smaller guy to carry the damn thing. But, you know, they pick a young man named Steele, who, and you

• 55:52Speaker 01

  know, my dad talks, and I'm sure we'll get to it, or you probably remember this, he talked about the night, but when their LST glided to a stop in the waters off Pella Lou, and the sun setting, and the guys are smoking, and talking quietly, looking at the island, and they're thinking, they're contemplating, but we got to go out there tomorrow. And, you know, I can just, in my own, in my head, I can picture, you probably hear, you know, a few shells going over, you know, and guys on the radio, you know, stuff in the background, guys on squat boxes or whatever. And my dad is, he, in with the old breed, he says, I was talking to a friend, and I wondered if it would be my last sunset. Well, that friend

• 56:34Speaker 01

  was Private Steele. That was the guy he was talking to. And it, and I think I do put in there, or from my dad's edited out work, or unedited work, that he says, poor Steele, it was his last sunset. And, and you edit this out, but am I, am I messing up your flow here, man? Not at all. Okay. Nope. Nope. Okay.

• 57:05Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit toward the end of July, the training schedule and working parties loading ships began to pick up intensity showers screened mess halls and heads had been built by then and camp construction was almost completed. Nearly every morning after revelry, the company was put through calisthenics and then double timed around the regiment layer area. Pavuvu was too small for training out in wide open spaces. So we ran around the same area to avoid colliding with other units. So again, there's a bunch of detail that that your dad goes through about what it was actually like as they're preparing.

• 57:43Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. My father and his buddies were soon assigned to another type of working party. The significance this would be not not realized until later, but it was one that they would never forget. This is the oil drum thing.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:54Jocko Willink?

  And you and I were talking about this before, um, before we hit record. This is one of those things that when you watch the Pacific, they have this great scene of carrying, uh, cleaning out these oil drums. And you know, it's where we start to get to know Snafu a little bit, which is just incredible character. So well played by that actor.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Ronnie Mallett.

• 58:18Jocko Willink?

  Just incredible. And you see, you start to see what that's like. And, and when you read with the old breed, you understand what the payoff is going to be.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:28Jocko Willink?

  But the payoff doesn't come, or it's not the payoff. It's like a negative payoff because it's a bad thing that happens. This, this cleaning of these, uh, of these drums were what they were going to use to ship water in for the troops to drink on the ground. And so they're doing a decent job, but, uh, from a decentralized command and leadership perspective, this is why it's very important for the people that the troops know why they're doing what they're doing. Cause I guarantee if they would have known why they were cleaning those drums out, they absolutely would have done a better job than they did. Cause fast forward a few weeks, when they do get water, it comes in those 55 gallon drums and it tastes like oil.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. When you're hopping up some fucking hill crying boo hoo for your mama.

• 59:15Jocko Willink?

  Uh, fast forward a little bit. One of the characters my father came to know at this stage was gunny Sergeant Elmo Haney. I have some early memories about hearing about this eccentric but iconic Marine. When I was in the second or third grade, I wrote a short story complete with childish illustrations. I wasn't much of an artist and one of my fictitious characters was named Haney. He was, in every sense of the word, the old breed. And this is what your dad has to say. He was absolutely obsessed with the desire to bayonet the enemy. In the afternoons after returning to the company area, dog tired and soaked with sweat, I would take off my gear and relax for a bit before taking a shower. Not Haney. He

• 59:57Jocko Willink?

  went straight to the tent, donned his favorite unofficial pavu-vu uniform consisting of cut-off khaki trousers, leggings, boondockers, and have personal bayonet drill against a tow sack filled with palm frond ribs at the end of the company street near my tent. Many afternoons, I sprawled on my sack and watched Haney go through the evolutions of bayonet fighting while men walked past him going to and from the showers. He was oblivious of them and they were careful to stay out of his way. Upon completion of his bayonet drill, Haney returned to his tent, sat on his sack, and entered in the ritual of cleaning his weapons. Then he stripped, took up his towel and a huge chunk of caustic GI scrubbing

• 1:00:37Jocko Willink?

  soap and his trusty brush and headed for the showers. Once I asked Haney about his bayonet technique. He was absolutely delighted and explained every detail with enthusiasm. I could see that he would have me out there with him every day if I appeared too interested, so I had to slip past him to the showers until he forgot about me. End quote. While he wasn't blind to the eccentric nature of Sergeant Haney, my father also appreciated that Haney was a living manifestation of the legendary Old Corps and a source of historical knowledge.

• 1:01:10Jocko Willink?

  So again, this is one of those things where when you watch the Pacific, it's a 30 second, maybe even a 20 second clip where you see Haney working with his bayonet.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Take that fucking jet and recover.

• 1:01:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, beautifully played by Gary Sweet.

• 1:01:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And then you see where it comes from. Like this is where it comes from. There's, there's real detail behind it and it's.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Well, and the part that I write about, you know, that I remember that goofy little childhood story. I don't even remember what the hell it was about, but I, you know, just remember my dad talking about Haney, you know, and again, so much of this Jaco is, is, and Dave, I'm talking to you too, you know, so much of this guys is just this, this lore of K35, man, it just suffused my childhood.

• 1:02:00Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit in World War II, all marine officers had code names. This was to prevent some over your private from yelling, hey, captain, or hey, lieutenant at night or in the middle of a firefight and thus giving away the identity, the identity of officers who would of course then become immediate targets of the Japanese. K Company's commanding officer was Captain Andrew Allison Haldane from Methuen, Massachusetts, Methune, Massachusetts, code name Akak. My father's first encounter with Akak Haldane took place when the company was struggling along the muddy roads during one of Puvuvu's late afternoon thunderstorms after a day of training in the gloomy twilight with the rain pouring down. The men were tired, cold and forlorn. As my father struggled to keep his balance

• 1:02:44Jocko Willink?

  in the muddy ruts made by tank treads and trucks, he saw a big man walking briskly along from the rear of the column. It was Captain Haldane and he began talking to my father. He exuded charisma and seemed genuinely interested in this young replacement from Mobile, Alabama. My father remembered that as they talked, the gloom seemed to disappear and he made, and he felt a glow inside. Akak said that it wouldn't rain forever and soon they could get dry. As Captain Haldane moved along the column, he struck up similar conversations with wet, tired, wet men. My father remembered Akak as the finest and most popular officer he ever knew. He always spoke of him with reverential respect.

• 1:03:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is um, one of those things where it's it one of the uh, so at our consulting company, Ashland Front, one of the things that we have to overcome is this stereotypical view of military officers that a military leader is going to be standing up and yelling at everyone, barking orders. And that's just so clear. And your dad represents Captain Haldane so uh, so well. Never raised his voice, like always come. And it's very interesting too, because Band of Brothers, right? We have, we have Captain Sorbell, who's, you know, yelling and screaming, and they hate him. And then you have Major Winters take over, or I guess it's Lieutenant Winters when he takes over. But doesn't yell, listen to

• 1:04:16Jocko Willink?

  what people have to say. And it that that quality of leadership, even with the old breed. That's another thing. You know, I'll get a young, I'll get a young veteran military guy. Well, you know, these like, they're getting soft now, not like they used to be. It's like, oh, talk to Captain Haldane. Talk to Eugene Sledge about what a good leader was. Good leader wasn't yelling and screaming. Good leader was leading.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:04:43Jocko Willink?

  And and your dad dedicated the entire book.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  He did.

• 1:04:48Jocko Willink?

  To Captain Haldane.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, growing up, and as I have said, I mean, these names like Akak and Snafu, you know, that was part of my childhood. And to speak to Captain Haldane, I mean, I think he says, I think I wrote this in there, Jocko, I'm not sure. The my dad said in that moment, you know, and I could just picture this gloomy thunderstorm. These kids are still kids at that point. And they're just humping through the mud, you know, and tanks and trucks are rolling by, and they're just trying to get back to their tents and take a what passes for a shower. And he said, you know, AKAK made us feel like we were something other than animals being trained to fight. He made us feel human. And that's the kind of man that he was. I

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  mean, my father thought he was the finest officer that he ever served under. And, and I'm told by modern day Marines that, and I mean, this would please my father to no end, that, that in, in Marine officer training, they take these guys and they, they say, read about Captain Haldane. This is the kind of officer you need to aspire to. And, you know, and I think my dad's book is required reading in Marine OCS, but they, they tell them, this is what you need to aspire to. It's not beating them down and yelling at them and berating them. And there are times when you're gonna get somebody that probably needs that. But, you know, Captain Haldane, I mean, like I said, I mean, when, when I'm

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  a kid growing up in the seventies and the, and the word AKAK is a household word to me. And I'm not talking about anti-aircraft fire. You know, that, that says something. And that's part of why I do what I do, because my dad, his, his, the esprit de corps, that what, that those values inculcated in him as a Marine. That suffused every part of his character. And I think it came across in the kind of father that he was. And like I said, guys, I mean, it's part of why I do what I do. I just feel so strongly about it.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  Dave, required reading? It is on the common knowledge reading list. It's done by rank. In my mind, I think as a second lieutenant, it's one of the first ones that you read. I could technically be wrong. Maybe it's a first lieutenant or a captain or something, but it is absolutely on the list. And I was introduced to it at, at the basic school. So the first time I saw this book was I was probably a second lieutenant for a month. And I, I had read it then. Just for a little context.

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  The base school might not be the best place to like really absorb those things because a lot of it is just you think it's like almost an assignment.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:07:30Speaker 02

  But when I volunteered to be a forward air controller, I originally thought I was going to Okinawa, which I did go for a little while thinking, oh, this, I'm going to go to Okinawa. I was given the gift by the commanding officer, Top Gun with the old breed. He didn't know that I had read it and I, to be quite frank, I forgot a lot about it. But he's like, hey, you're going to Okinawa, you should read this book. And I thanked him and I, I read it and then I read it again. That's when the book to me really sunk in. I was older, I was a more mature officer, I'd been around and had read it second and third time. And the impact of that going to Okinawa, getting to spend time there is when that book really got into my bloodstream and, and it was six, it was significantly more impactful to me than it was as a lieutenant. But I'll tell you, every lieutenant in the Marine Corps reads this book.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Well, that's just such an honor to hear and it's amazing. And from your perspective, Dave, as an aviator, you know, which is why I love the fact that my dad talks about the aviators of VMF 114, you know, and that when they hit Ingecebas, which is part of your D plus 13 on Pellul, that's part of the Pellul operation. But it's that shore to shore amphibious assault by, by three, five over on Ingecebas. VMF 114 is the Marine Fighter Squadron that flies close air support. And that is one of the, I think the first time that the close air support for an amphibious landing was solely by Marine aviators.

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  And for me, you know, growing up, loving World War II airplanes, being obsessed with the Corsair, you know, which I talk, my brother, seven years older than me, had built a model of a Corsair and it had a little sliding canopy on it. And, you know, he built it and I took it and he's like, give me the damn, like, you know, and I'm, I'm wanting to play with it and go around with it, you know, because I was obsessed with the Corsair because my dad loved Corsairs. And being, you know, any father wants to connect with his kids and he saw that and he goes, you know, Corsairs flew close air support for us and they were just, God, we love those things, you know? And so that's just like one more box being checked that I'm going to love Corsairs till the day I die. But for your perspective as an aviator, I mean, the, the marriage between that symbiotic

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  relationship between Marine infantrymen and Marine aviators is just unbreakable, I would think.

• 1:09:42Speaker 02

  It is.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  I'm not a military guy. That's the first thing I need to say.

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  Real.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  I have the experience you guys have, but I've read enough about it that.

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  You have captured it extremely well and you can imagine this too. I mean, first of all, the Corsair is the iconic. It is the iconic airplane. I mean, as a little kid that, you know, the Black Sheep Squad and TV show was the show that we all watched and learned about. I mean, that's the, that's the iconic airplane. We all know that, especially if you have any sense of like the carrier nature of the Marine Corps, which was always the most intriguing to me. It wasn't just they were Marines, but they did it from the sea, which was, there was, that's the uniqueness of the Corps. But I will tell you, as a Marine fighter, as a pilot in general, as a Marine fighter pilot, whatever, the, the, the people you are trying to earn the respect of as a fighter pilot is the, is the Marine infantryman. That's

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  who, that is who you are there for and that has bred to you from day one. And if you want the highest praise that you can get as a pilot, it's not how good you are against your peers. It's not how good you dogfight. It's, did you do something to support the Marines on the ground where the Marines recognized the contribution made to them, made their lives? That's the praise that you want. That's the respect that you're trying to earn as a Marine is a Marine infantryman.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  That is really beautifully said because, and I know jumping ahead, it's on Okinawa, but my dad talks about that may have been stalled right in front of Shuri or just past Shuri, but they are just stalled out in the mud, knee deep mud, living what he described as hell zone cesspool. And he talks about, and I could not believe this got edited out with the old breed, but the part where a TBM goes flying over pretty low, you know, from right to left, I think it was. And the back canopy opens and, or it may have been the front canopy because on the, on the TBF, the front canopy slid, the back canopy was like a roll up thing. But the pilot threw an object out and it was a note tied to a wrench. And...

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  One of the aviators had scribbled, you know, God bless you guys. You're doing a great job. Watch out. There's some Japs right over that ridge that you can't see. And so, but the, what I'm trying to get to Dave is, you know, like for muddy infantrymen, seeing rear echelon guys was something they resented, you know, clean shaven, nice dungarees. And I, there's a lot I talk about in there that he wrote. But he, he says in that passage, it's freaking beautiful, man. He talks about seeing, we could see those guys so clearly and they were wearing clean flight suits. They were obviously clean shaven. He said, that didn't bother us a bit. Cause he said, man, those aviators were risking their lives and because it was really bad weather that day.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  And he said, it just, we loved those guys and we appreciated them so much. So that, I mean, just, yeah, God, it's just beautiful stuff.

• 1:12:36Jocko Willink?

  Indeed, it is.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  I never get tired of talking about this stuff, man.

• 1:12:45Jocko Willink?

  There's no reason to. There's so much here. As the invasion date of the next operation for the division near, discipline and training both picked up in intensity. Unfortunately, much of the discipline bordered on harassment. The modern term for this would be chicken shit discipline. My father, however, had an aversion to a course of vulgar language. So in his manuscript, he referred to it as chicken discipline. And here's what your dad had to say, quote, "It was the type of discipline that men referred to as chicken, seemingly unnecessary orders or changing of orders while we were in the process of carrying them out. For example, clothing inspections became more frequent. Every item of clothing had to be cleaned and unpacked from my C-bag folded and displayed

• 1:13:26Jocko Willink?

  on my bunk while nervous NCOs rushed in and out of our tents, checking and rechecking each man's bunk. Any errors resulted in our NCOs being balled out and then he balled out the offender. After they left us with an at ease carry on, we repacked all our clothing issue and waited for the next event. During one such inspection, a lieutenant fresh from the States paused at the rear of our tent, obviously puzzled at the faint gurgling sound that was coming from the ground just behind the tent. The veteran company officer raised his eyebrow, gave a slight smile and then moved the new officer along, knowing there must be a can of jungle juice working in its hiding place there." Inspections of the troops in full combat gear became also more common during one of

• 1:14:11Jocko Willink?

  these just before Pelulue, Akak demonstrated his usual compassion by ordering company fallout, platoon leaders continue inspection within tents as a pavuvu downpour came up suddenly. After our platoon leader finished inspecting us in our tent and gave us the at ease and left, we sat on our bunks and watched with disgust as the marionette, who was the skipper of the company next to us, inspected every man's weapon and gear, his men at rigid attention in their company's street in a torrential rain. Thank God for Akak, remarked one of my tent mates. Amen, we all said. And again, what a beautiful story to show.

• 1:14:54Jocko Willink?

  Like you want to gain respect of your people, how about you treat them like human beings? And when it's pouring rain, say, hey, guys, get in the tent, finish the inspection of the tent. All good. And meanwhile, next door, you can see knucklehead out there with his guys. And he probably thinks he's doing a great job. And like you said already, Henry, like, is there a time for that? Yeah, there's time. Got to do some hard stuff. And we had a call about this yesterday. What was it? Suck it up, right? And I was, somebody was asking, you know, they have an employee that's doing something and they just need to tell them to suck it up. And I was like, you know, in my 20 years in the military, I don't think I ever looked at one of my people and said, hey, just suck it up. Like, it just, I know it sounds cool. Sounds like the thing to do. But generally speaking, it's probably not.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  When, here's what comes to my mind on that, Chaco. I mean, I don't have military experience, as I've said, but we've all, we've all had bosses, some cases we didn't much care for. And in some cases, really great bosses. And you think of one who does that, and I'm, I'm thinking some I've seen do it, in their minds, they probably thought they were imparting some degree of great leadership and, you know, this is what it takes to inspire people.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Like you said, it's really, it just doesn't come across that way. There's just, I think there are just better ways to do it sometimes. But I'm not a corporate manager, so I don't.

• 1:16:23Jocko Willink?

  Here's another, you know, speaking of rear echelon and, and some of the comparisons and I, you, I know you mentioned before we were talking about, I have a company called Echelon Front, and I don't know if you made this connection, but there's a very specific reason why the company's called Echelon Front.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  I figured you had a good reason for it.

• 1:16:38Jocko Willink?

  Because we wanted to make everyone know, at least amongst us in the military, this is not rear echelon leadership. This is not the people in the back with the gear in the rear. This is Echelon Front. Your dad says this quote, "The living conditions of men in the rear areas looked pretty good to us infantrymen. It all tended to widen the gulf, the gulf of understanding between combatants and non-combatants. What they took for the necessities of life, we looked on as luxuries. If we weren't tired, wet, muddy, hot, cold, thirsty, hungry, or under fire, we felt well off. I griped loudly as, I griped as loudly as any about our living conditions and discipline," end quote.

• 1:17:22Jocko Willink?

  But then you add this, "It was only later, after surviving the brutal conditions of Pellalu and Okinawa, that he realized that these depravations equipped and prepared them to deal with, quote, 'psychological and physical, physical shock and stress,' end quote, of deadly combat." So, all the hard training that they were doing, he's, he's basically says, "Look, we wouldn't have been able to, we would have been ready at all for what we were about to experience if we didn't get some taste of that in our training."

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:53Jocko Willink?

  And your dad makes that pretty clear.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  You know, that, and maybe some of that is why the Marine Corps through the years has embraced with the old breed so much because.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  He talked a lot about and a lot of great stuff that got edited out that I was able to use. I guess it was fortunate, you know, he talked about the, the, the conditions of deprivation, the, the harsh training conditions, but whereas some people who did not understand the dynamic of what was going on, I might've thought it was just being, you know, just, just being sadistic for no reason, you know, he talked about Corporal Dougherty, who Corporal Dougherty, after With the Old Re, came out, actually got recognition and I, I think he and my dad actually were able to meet because he kind of got a degree of, because I, I thought my dad did a great job of portraying him, you know, he said, I didn't like him,

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  but I respected him. He wasn't a big guy, you know, five nine, five 10, 160 pounds, but he was pretty damn tough and none of us were going to mess with him. But he said, I understood after Pelluloo, coming back to Pavu, I understood why we had to do the things we did. And, you know, I, I went to Paris Island here just a few weeks ago with Joey Jones to do the, the Fox Nation piece. And we drove around with, with Captain Duble, who was the public relations officer. We, we toured the base and we saw some of these guys in training. I've never been through Marine Corps training. I have a world of respect for people who go through any military training. But I guess I just see it through

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  my dad's eyes and I understand it's got to be extremely unpleasant. It's not summer camp. It's preparing you for what is probably going to be a very tough time in your life. Um, you know, and there's a great piece that got when they, after Pelluloo, where they dealt with such heat and humidity and, and lack of clean drinking water until later in the campaign. And my dad's reading the newspaper from home and a lady had written a letter to her congressman. She, her son was an army infantryman going through army basic. And he had complained about being forced to face into the sun. And the mother thought this was inhumane and complained to her congressman. And my dad,

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  He talks about maybe something you were gonna read and I'm just blowing it for you.

• 1:20:15Jocko Willink?

  It's all good.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  He, he talks about, I'm reading this, he said, I just started guffawing. And people are like, Sledgehammer, what are you laughing at? And, and my dad reads this story to them and they start laughing and guys in the next ten are, what the hell are y'all laughing at? And everybody's repeating the story and my dad says, guys on down the company street are slapping their legs and guffawing over, oh, the poor army infantryman whose mother complained about being forced to face into the sun. And I'm not insulting the army here, that's not the purpose of why I'm saying this. The point of why I'm saying this is, my dad said, after being on Pelluloo where we were in our foxholes, having to lie down, being pinned down by Nambo fire, you know, facing into the sun, I understood why Corporal Doherty did what he did.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  And it may have seemed sadistic at first, but coming off of Pelluloo back to Pavuvu to train for Okinawa, things were contextualized a little bit differently and I understood, this is why you're having to go through this.

• 1:21:14Jocko Willink?

  No doubt about it, there's, you know, in recent history, trying to make training easier, right? And, and the SEAL teams and SEAL training, you go through something called Hell Week and it's five and a half days and you don't sleep and it's, it's, it's, you get injured, like you are one, you know, you take casualties, you're gonna take the beach, you're gonna take some casualties, like you go through Hell Week, you're going to be injured, you're gonna have problems, you're gonna be sick, you're gonna be, you're gonna have infections, like these things are going to happen. And there's some people that started saying, well, you know, why do you, do you really need to do that? Do you really need to do that? And you don't have to take too many steps towards the rear echelon before you say, well, maybe you don't really need to do that.

• 1:21:59Jocko Willink?

  That's when you need to pick up with the old breed and read it and recognize why military training is the way military training is. It has to be hard in order to prepare you for these situations and that's all there is to it. You mentioned that you visited, we're gonna fast forward to Pelluloo, but you, you visited Pelluloo in 1999.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Yes, correct.

• 1:22:19Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, you, you got to walk the battlefield, you find artifacts, you get a sense of the terrain.

• 1:22:31Jocko Willink?

  You, you understand, you start to see what the Marines were going into. And what that was like, what was it like going to Peleliu for the first time? When you went there?

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  You know, I, I had wanted to go to Peleliu since I was a teenager. I remember telling my mom that, you know, one day I want to go to Peleliu because something about the idea of this sparsely populated island, you know, on the fringes of the Pacific, where the, the detritus of war still lives, you know, bombed out Japanese fighting positions, rusted weapons, you know, uh, the remain, rusted remains of amphibious tractors and Japanese zero fighter planes, all this stuff. That I was just captivated by that. So yes, to go

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  in 1999 for the 55th anniversary of the battle. And, you know, like Orange Beach two, which is the sector where K35 went ashore. I mean, to, to stand there on that stretch of beach, which really the northern beaches, White Beach, which is where the first Marines landed. That's where it was the worst, but uh, fifth Marines went ashore on the Orange Beach one and two and three, or seventh Marines went ashore on Orange Beach three. The southern beaches, it was a little easier, but not much. You know, first Marine Division had four amphibious landings, World War II, Gualcanal, Gloucester, Peleliu and Okinawa. You know, of those, Peleliu was the most viciously opposed.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  To walk on that beach and, and you know, just obviously being as connected to my dad's story as a, as a was then and always have been, was just so evocative, man. I mean, and it's not just, wasn't just the landing beach. I mean, uh, if you want to jump ahead to D plus one, when they attacked across the airfield, which of course is horrifically portrayed in the, in the Pacific mini-series and very well portrayed. Um, you know, I told my buddy Eric Maylander, who, who was my guide on that trip and had been, that was his seventh trip, just an expert on the battle. I talk about Eric in, in my book there. And I said, man, I, I, when we see that airfield, I want to go across right where K35 went across.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  And, you know, Colonel Alexander was in our group and, and we, we get out of the, the van, you know, the little van that we were riding around in and, and you know, he said, guys, let's just give Henry a few minutes by himself, you know? And I said, yeah, man, I just want to walk around right here. And

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  We haven't even gotten into the issue of the fact that the Marine Corps has revitalized the airfield on Pelluloo. They're flying supertankers in there now, KC-130s. That's a conversation in itself that now Pelluloo has been deemed to be strategically relevant in the modern day, in a modern geopolitical context. That's, my father would just be blown away by that. But on that day, it was kind of a hot, still day, gentle breeze blowing. You know, the airstrip was, it was disused at that time, but it was still a very clear, large coral strip out in the jungle. And, you know, but the jungle growth was creeping

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  in on the side. So, you know, very much a disused strip, but you could tell it was an airstrip at one time. And it was just haunting. I mean, to be, because I'm walking around in that sector because I've heard so many times, I've heard my dad describe to me what it was like, you know, and I even talk in there about, in my book, about how, you know, he, like his pistol belt, his web pistol belt, which is now in the Museum of the Pacific War in Fredericksburg, Texas. I remember looking at that when I was a kid and he was talking about, you know, the thick webbing material. And he said, you see how thick that material is? He said, you know, when we were coming across the airfield, I

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  tripped and fell and a piece of, you know, a piece of metal just came right over my head, right when I did it and it hit Snafu in the side. And he went down with a grunt, all, you know, all of which he wrote about and I talk about in my book. But he said it, you know, that pistol belt saved his life because he said, you know, like, of course, the shell fire, mortar fire and machine gun fire, everything was so loud, they couldn't hear each other yell. So he just could see, you know, he crawls over to Snafu in that moment and he could see Snafu, you know, like my dad picked up that metal and he's bouncing it in his hand. And he could see Snafu motioning, you know, saying, put it

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  in my pack. And so my dad opens his pack, throws it in there and they get on across, which I hope somebody in the Shulton family has that piece of metal because that.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  I mean, I would have that framed, but yeah, I mean, the airfield in Pelula was just because it was such, it was such a, an evocative place. I mean, so much happened, you know, and, and because it was, you know, the Japanese had everything zeroed in on that spot because it's not like it was going to be some covert operation. They knew the Marines were going to come across.

• 1:27:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And one of the things that, one of the reasons why I was wanting to get your assessment of visiting there is because when you go somewhere, it's not like the pictures. It's like, no matter, no matter what intel you get, it's not going to be exactly what you thought. And I was thinking about these World War II Marines. I don't even know if they had like photography. I don't know if planes had flown over and taken pictures.

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  They had, but well, go ahead.

• 1:28:10Speaker 02

  No, believe me, the last thing I want to do is interrupt you telling the story, but I wrote something down and I think it's similar to what you were thinking, Jocko, is

• 1:28:19Speaker 02

  I, I am going with the assumption that you're trying to visualize what your dad's experience was like, like standing in those, those places. Um, I, I, my one experience was something I, similar to that in the iconic world of the Marines in the Pacific is I flew onto Iwo Jima. So I flew a section of F-18s, flew out onto the airfield, walked up Mount Suribachi, which you can hike up there, re-enlisted a young Marine and had the, had my squadron up there, then got a ride down to jump back in my jet and do a flyby for the squadron. Like probably the coolest thing I ever did. But what was remarkable, and I really just wanted to hear you talk more about it was everything I'd ever seen about Iwo Jima was in black and white. All the pictures I ever read and saw and that's ever been published

• 1:29:03Speaker 02

  on that time, there's nothing in color. It's this is very faded, greenish, hueish. Uh, and so you get there, what you don't get a sense of, of how blue the water is and how green that the, uh, the, um, the trees and, and, and the color of that is, is really startling because in the pictures, it, it has very, even the ones that are colorized are so washed out and it was really. Remarkable to its picture, like as it stands there and I stood there on, I have sand from you during that picked up, like it is a gorgeous, it is a stunningly beautiful place. And then you have to in your own mind transpose the violence and everything that went on there. But the colorized view of that is so different and it's hard to capture like how violent a

• 1:29:45Speaker 02

  place like that could be and you're there probably trying to imagine what your dad was going through. I'm just wondering like what that experience was like when you saw it and it probably looked very different than what's in your mind's eye from the pictures because as it sits quietly, they're all very beautiful places. They're stunning and they're in the middle, they're islands in the Pacific and then you have this incredible contrast.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, so pre-invasion photography and there were a lot of photographs, but the thing was the jungle canopy was so thick that it obscured the true nature of the terrain and the true nature of the terrain was enormously topographically complex because you had like five parallel ridges with interconnected ravines and box canyons and all that. I mean, that, that, the failures of pre-invasion intelligence of Peleliu, we could go on and on about, but Dave, to speak more in a visceral way to what you're talking about. I had watched, it was a Lou Rita production on the Bloody Hills of Peleliu. And I had watched that, it came out, my dad was interviewed for it extensively.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  And before I went to Peleliu, I wore the videotape of that thing out, just watched it again. My wife really gets, because the guy who narrated it just has this, he's like a classic stage actor, Paul Sparr, I think was his name, I just noticed it because the dude's got a freaking awesome voice. But just, I'll be sitting there, we'll be talking about Peleliu and I'll start going to Bloody Hills of Peleliu, you know, and my wife's just like, God, stop it, Henry, you know. But, I mean, yes, it was, to see it and be there, I mean, Peleliu is a beautiful place

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  now, you know, but to my father, it represented tragic waste and death that on so many levels really was unnecessary. And again, we're not even getting into the geostrategic reasons for taking Peleliu while they could have bought it, that's, that's, I mean, ink has been spilled on that, you know, we're staying visceral in the moment here.

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  My father was asked, would you ever want to go back there? And he absolutely did not want to. Now, Okinawa, you know, he actually, and I didn't know this until reading through some letters, researching for the book, he said that he would be interested in going to Okinawa. But I think he saw Okinawa as, I mean, it was a beautiful island, not so much after they'd been there a while. But, you know, he keenly felt the suffer and the sorrowing that the indigenous population was having to go through, you know. But Pelaloo, whatever civilians had been there, of course, had been taken off and sent north, you know,

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  into the northern Palau Islands. And so Pelaloo to him just represented tragic loss of life because so many of his buddies didn't make it through. But for me to be there and to hear the jungle birds, you know, softly calling to each other and see the sun dappled jungle canopy floor, you know, as we're walking around exploring these fighting positions, you know, like one of my last days there, we go up into some coral ridges and we found a 30 caliber water cooled machine gun still in its emplacement with an ammo belt, the remains of an ammo belt. At that point, it was down to like five rounds that hadn't

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  rotted off. And it was still in its fighting position. And I've got a picture of me kneeling by it. And my buddy Eric Mailander had been, he had seen the same position because he knew the island intimately well. He'd seen the same position in one of his previous trips a few years before. And he said, last time I saw this, there was like 10 or 15 rounds still left of that belt. Well, when I saw it, it had, you know, mother nature was reclaiming it very slowly. And it had just decayed and rotted to where there was just a few rounds sticking out of the breach. But

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  To look at this machine gun with the remains of a belt still in the, in the breach. And you hear the jungle birds calling to each other. I mean, it was really a haunting moment, you know? And, and my dad was still alive and in pretty good health at that point. And I, I remember telling him about that, showing him the picture of it. True to his nature, you know, what interested him most was the jungle birds. He wanted me to try to describe that because he was an ornithologist. He was a biologist. That was, you know, that was his passion.

• 1:34:25Jocko Willink?

  Well, speaking of pre-invasion intelligence, I kind of have to, I'm obligated to read this part. This is a quote from your dad. "The submarine USS Seawolf in late June 1944 had obtained photographs that gave some information about the island. In July, the submarine USS Burrfish attempted to send in small underwater demolition teams by rubber boats at night." And then you add underwater demolition teams or UDTs were the precursor to modern Navy SEALs. There you go. And then your dad says, "Because of bright moonlit nights, Japanese radar and constant air and sea patrols, the sub had to remain submerged in the area for two weeks.

• 1:35:05Jocko Willink?

  One dark night, a five-man team paddled ashore on one of the beaches to be used in our assault." These incredibly brave men obtained valuable information. However, data on the depth of the water, type of shoal and bottom was not gained until UDTs examined the area under protection of naval gunfire just prior to the landing." So I had to throw that in there, you know, kind of obligated. And by the way, it's like Tarawa. Tarawa had taken place. There was no UDTs. That's one of the tragedies was they didn't understand what, what the coral was like, what the reef was like, what the sand was like. And that's one of the reasons that the UDTs started, started doing this stuff. And here they were making it happen. And, and that stuff that they said there is like

• 1:35:48Jocko Willink?

  one of those evolutions that happened where the UDTs originally were going in at night because we're stealthy. But they weren't really getting the information that they needed. And eventually they had to go in the daytime and they'd go under the, under the naval gunfire and take their chances.

• 1:36:08Jocko Willink?

  You give a little bit of information on the order of battle here. Total First Marine Division strength when they departed Pavuvu was 16,459 officers and men, not counting the reinforcements. Of these, only about 9,000 were combat infantrymen. The division's three infantry regiments were the First Marines, Fifth Marines, and Seventh Marines. The artillery regiment was the 11th Marines. And then fast forward a little bit, the Japanese, the commander of the Japanese forces on Palau was Colonel Nuneo. Kuniyo Nakagawa. Yeah, you're gonna have to just re-pronounce every foreign language that I have, because I'm really bad at foreign languages. His forces consisted of approximately 10,000 troops of the 14th Division, hardened and experienced veterans from the fighting in Manchuria. And

• 1:36:51Jocko Willink?

  this is your dad's assessment. Quote, "In addition, there were elements of the 53rd Independent Mixed Brigade, who also saw, who also, and also Japanese Navy Guard Forces, Navy Guard Force units, and some service and labor troops. Many of Nakagawa's men were seasoned combat veterans of fighting in North China and Manchuria. They were indoctrinated with strict Bushido code of the warrior and took pride in their fighting ability without regard to personal safety. Some of the non-combatant naval forces and Korean labor troops were less fanatical, but the combat troops effectively forced them to resist us aggressively, and few succeeding, and few succeeded in surrendering." So that's what we've got. That's what the,

• 1:37:35Jocko Willink?

  that's what, that's the situation on the ground. Fanatical troops indoctrinated with the Bushido code, which had been manipulated and bent to the point where, you know, this is where you're getting suicide kamikazes and whatnot.

• 1:37:55Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. D-Day, September 15th, 1944. Before dawn, an NCO came into their compartment and barked, "Okay, guys, hit the deck." The men got up and pulled on their dungaree trousers and jackets and their boondockers. They shaved and headed to chow. This consisted of steak and eggs, a tradition learned from the Australians." Your dad, quote, "Just as I started to leave the galley and go topside, it was announced that Tokyo Rose had sent a radio message saying something like, 'Hello to American boys all over the Pacific. I want to announce that the First Marine Division, the brave conquerors of Guadalcanal and Cape Gloucester, is preparing to invade Palau Island.'" The heroic troops of the Imperial Japanese Army, however, have a big surprise for the Marines.

• 1:38:37Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Tokyo Rose putting out some intel, some propaganda. Yeah.

• 1:38:45Jocko Willink?

  All right, let's get to the landing here, going to the book. As the preceding two waves got close to the reef, close shells, close shell hits began dropping in and raising massive geysers of water. And here's your dad. I saw a large shell explode off the port quarter of a patrol craft to our front. As the geyser of water leaped up, the Navy gun crew of the 81 millimeter mortar on the port side hit the deck as one man, but immediately got back on their feet firing away. When, and this is you, when the first shell hit, my father told me, I realized my place was back at home with my mother.

• 1:39:24Jocko Willink?

  The island, as he described it, seemed quote, marked by a continuous sheet of flame from left to right for the entire length of the beach, backed by a thick wall of smoke, end quote. And then you say it wasn't white smoke like what rises over a campfire, but angry black smoke, the kind that comes from exploding shells and burning vehicles and structures, and maybe from things hit and burning that weren't meant to burn. I remember thinking, my God, he said, none of us will ever get out of that place alive.

• 1:39:58Jocko Willink?

  Back to your dad, quote, the lieutenant motioned for us to get our heads down as the Japanese shell began, shells began to hit closer. There was a violent jolt as the Amtrak lurched upward and out of the water. We were thrown violently against each other and the sides of the Amtrak. The treads crunched and scraped against the rough coral as we moved out of deep water onto the reef. The gunner on our tractor started firing his 50 cal machine gun, but I could hardly hear it. I felt detached and forlorn as I watched the empty shell cases fall on the steel floor. Something rattled above the dent of the bombardment and I hoped it was the falling brass cases. I looked up at the gunner, but he was ducking down and away from the Japanese machine bullets, which were rattling and pinging against our Amtrak's armor.

• 1:40:41Jocko Willink?

  We moved off the coral into an area of deep water and the tractor floated again. My father looked toward, end quote, my father looked toward the front of the Amtrak from his position near the rear and saw their lieutenant reaching for something. It was a half pint whiskey bottle. It all seemed unreal, but it was real and it was happening to this compassionate young man from Mobile, Alabama, who loved riding his horse back home, his family and his dogs, and going on hunting trips with his father. The lieutenant held the bottle out to my father, but he refused it.

• 1:41:22Jocko Willink?

  I know, um, I heard you talking about, or we were talking earlier about this quote that you pulled, "A continuous sheet of flame from left to right, the entire length of the beach, backed by a thick wall of smoke." What a horrific image.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, when, you know, when you, when you read that, I, I actually remember my dad saying that in an interview and it's, it was the, you know, it was, I, I, it was one that I had watched and listened to obsessively before I went to Petaloo in 1999. And when I hear those words, you know, and I remember the day I sat down and wrote that, that part, I'm hearing my dad say it, the way he talked. And I, I'm, I'm hearing him go, you know, I just saw the beach and it was just from one end to the other, it was just this continuous sheet of flame, backed by a thick wall of smoke. And, and I remember thinking, my God, none of us will ever get out of that place alive. And that's, that's kind of.

• 1:42:23Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I'm going to go ahead. Whatever I said about you maybe not doing the, the audiobook, you should 100% do the audiobook.

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  Like I said, I mean, if somebody wants to make it where I can retire and do nothing but that, I would happily do it, but probably not going to happen. But no, I just remember, you know, my dad, the way he talked. And he had a really distinctive Mobile accent, which is not your typical Southern accent. And I remember we told Joe Mazzella when we met him before they started filming, we said, you know, don't, don't try to do the southern accent because Hollywood always gets it wrong. You know, they always screw it up. Just, just talk normally, you know.

• 1:43:03Jocko Willink?

  Where was his accent from?

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  Well, Joe.

• 1:43:05Jocko Willink?

  In real life?

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  My dad was from Mobile.

• 1:43:07Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no.

• 1:43:07Speaker 01

  But Joe, I mean, I think he's from somewhere in California. I'm not completely sure, but I, we, the way he did it was fine.

• 1:43:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  You know, uh, would like when he tells our, his dog Deacon, which I remember, we got pictures of Dee. I think I've got a picture of Deacon in there. You know, Deacon, you stay, you know, that, I, that, that was fine. He, I thought Joe did fine with that, but there, there are southern accents and then there are accents from Mobile, Alabama. It's just a distinctive, it's a distinctive accent, you know, and I just, I can just hear my dad describe that, you know, like they were, if I can hit you with another one.

• 1:43:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  They were, he was talking about advancing inland and he saw that Japanese, like the nose of a bomb that had been buried. And he says, the Japanese would take 500 pound bombs and bury them as de facto landmines. And he said, as we started inland, I, I looked down and my right foot missed by no more than six inches of, of Japanese 500 pound bomb that had been buried as a mine. And a little way down the beach, I saw a boy step on one and it, it just, it just atomized him. He just disappeared.

• 1:44:15Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:44:16Speaker 01

  That is me quoting him directly. Cause I remember I just, because I watched that and listened to it over and over and over again. You know, because when we, when I walked on that beach, I wanted that in my head. You know, cause he was still alive in 1999 when I went to Pebble Lou. So, you know, just, it was an iconic thing for me to be able to do.

• 1:44:41Jocko Willink?

  Um, fast forward a little bit, an NCO yelled, the inevitable hit the beach. We piled out over the sides as fast as we could. Now, I don't want to read any of this. I want you to read it all.

• 1:44:55Jocko Willink?

  We piled out over the sides as fast as we could. My father said, snafu went over first and I was right behind him. I planted both feet on the left side of the Amtrak to leap out. And just as I did, I remember this light, this line of white tracer fire. The Japs use white tracers came right past my face at eye level. It almost grazed my face. He continued, well, I jerked down my head like a turtle and then I fell down onto the beach. When I fell off the side of the tractor, I just fell onto the sand in a heap. Mortar ammo bag, canteens, carbine, K-bar. It was certainly not the way John Wayne hit the beaches.

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, yes, I can hear him say that because, you know.

• 1:45:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  He laughed about.

• 1:45:39Jocko Willink?

  You know, one thing I noticed about, I was watching the Pacific getting ready for this podcast and when's the last time you watched the Pacific, Dave?

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  I've, it's probably a couple of years. I've rewatched it several times.

• 1:45:51Jocko Willink?

  When you rewatch it, and I, I didn't notice until I was watching the end. I was like, there was something that was, seemed a little bit off. And I'll have to rewatch it because now I don't know whether I, I made it up in my mind, but when you fire, when you, when you shoot tracers, right? At night, they, you see the, you see the tracers, but then you see ricochets and it lets you know how crazy bullets are because ricochets fly all over the place. And I have to rewatch it again and see if they, because the couple scenes where I, when I finally noticed it, I was like, oh, the ricochets aren't going anywhere. Because it makes tracer fire look even crazier at night when you see ricochets hitting. And it would be, it's different in different areas, but when you have concrete bunkers and stuff like that, tracers would be crazy going off those things. And I

• 1:46:36Jocko Willink?

  don't think they, I don't think they, I don't think they have them in the Pacific.

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  I think you're right.

• 1:46:40Jocko Willink?

  And I think like the tracers hit and they just die. But tracers in real life are crazy. And that's the reason I thought of that was when I'm thinking about these white tracers. And how in the movie you're going, you're like, oh, wow. And in the mini series you're going, oh, wow, those tracers are crazy. But then when you think about what it really looks like, when those tracers then hit and ricochet all over the place, they're flying, it just looks nuts. It looks totally out of control.

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  The one, you know, when you say that, and this is jumping ahead, forgive me, but he talks about on Okinawa at night when the battleships offshore were firing fire missions with their 16 and 14 inch guns. And, you know, he talked about how we like glowing just about the size of your thumb, you'd see those 16 or 14 inch shells, depending on which vessel fired them, like glowing red coals would go over and you'd hear him just, you know, it sounded like locomotives going over. And he said, we would see them inland. They would hit and then we would see a 16 inch shell go rumbling up into the sky. And then you'd see this red arc as it would hit and go rumbling up into the rainy sky, you know, after it ricocheted off whatever.

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  I mean, I can, man, to have been able to be there and see that just indescribable, you know?

• 1:47:56Jocko Willink?

  Here's another one from your dad that you grabbed a quote here in his words, "All up and down the beach, shells were going off, Amtraks were getting hit on the beach before they could get the guys out. You could see guys falling all along the beach because the extremely heavy small arms fire artillery and mortar fire. He saw bodies being blown into the air. Out on the reef, he saw some Marines trying to get out of a smoking Amtrak. The Japanese had the range on them and bracketed them mercilessly with machine guns and mortars. Some of them men were getting hit and falling into the water. My father told me how helpless he felt seeing his buddies trying to, trying in vain to help them in knee deep water."

• 1:48:41Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. This is your dad. Finally, the company moved forward. The riflemen moved ahead as skirmishers and my mortar squad moved along in dispersed formation behind them, ready to set up and give mortar fire when called upon. And again, I'm just, you gotta get the book. There's, I'm not, I'm not gonna read the whole book. Hopefully you'll read the whole book at some point, audio. But, um, fast forward a little bit. Visibility was limited to a few feet. We lost contact with I Company 35 on our left and with 37 on our right. It was equally hard to keeping contact with the platoons of our own company. There were no landmarks in the scrub we could, that we could use to get oriented.

• 1:49:20Jocko Willink?

  Japanese snipers kept up constant harassing fire. The crack of their rifles and whine of their rockets, of the ricochets off the hard coral and trees were unnerving. An occasional shell fell by nearby and fell nearby in the scrub. Fortunately, most of the communications men were able to wait ashore and join the battalion in the afternoon. My squad moved slowly through the dust-covered thick growth. The men keeping about a five-paced interval at such times, you feel terribly lonely. And there was a strong temptation to sidle, sidle up beside your buddy so you could watch out for snipers together and exchange a few comforting remarks. "Don't bunch up. Keep your five-paced interval," the, the NCOs kept saying.

• 1:49:59Jocko Willink?

  As a buddy sardonically summed it up to me, Sledgehammer, "Where there are two or three gathered together, there are always Jap mortar shells." And this is one of those weird instincts that guys get to get to bunch up. It's like absolutely a real human thing. When things are, when things are unsafe, people, they gather up and then you become a, a better target for the enemy.

• 1:50:26Jocko Willink?

  So despite all that, these guys continue to push. Eventually, they, they get to the airfield that we talked about. Um, and...

• 1:50:36Jocko Willink?

  When they get to the airfield, and this is where I opened the podcast with, right? There are no water, uh, no food, low on ammo. What do they have at this point? They have fear and anticipation. That's what they have and duty. Essentially, that's all it is. Um, as they, as they get into this situation where they're going to finally stage. And again, fast forward, um, these guys are staged. Looking at a flat airfield that you're going to have to cross. Looking at, looking at a, a, a, at, at any open space. When you're going across the street in Ramadi, when you're going like, what is it?

• 1:51:20Jocko Willink?

  Forty feet across the street? You, that, that doesn't feel good. And by the way, no rounds going. I'm talking to just a normal day. You're going to go from this side, this corner to that corner. You, the hair of the back of your neck stands up and you, you take a little, you crouch your shoulders down. You bring, you crouch your neck down. You bring your shoulders up. You try and make yourself look as small as you possibly can and you go. So here, these guys get to anticipate that all night long, that they're going to go across not 40 feet,

• 1:51:48Jocko Willink?

  not a hundred feet, but a massive amount of wide open terrain, where the enemy you know has completely dialed in. Like you're a morgue man. You know exactly what you'd be doing if you were on the other side. You have your machine gun teams. You know exactly what they'd be doing on the other side. And that's what these guys are getting ready to do. No water, no food. A night of anticipation, waiting for this to happen.

• 1:52:19Jocko Willink?

  After lying prone on the hot coral for what must have seemed like an eternity, an officer, an officer shouted, "Let's go." Four battalions from left to right, two, one, one, five, two, five and three, five, moved out in dispersed formation.

• 1:52:35Jocko Willink?

  And this is where you went up there and you actually did the walk that your dad did. Run, sprint, shuffle, zigzag. Your dad did everything probably but walk. But uh, you walked across it and, and what you say here is my dad said both to me in, and in as many interviews that crossing that airfield was the worst experience of the war. And that's saying a lot coming from your dad.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, he said that many times that, you know, he described as his, he did in his book, you know, tracer fire coming back, coming by snapping by a chair rail height.

• 1:53:20Speaker 01

  You know, none of it was easy for those guys, but the airfield was just compressed. I guess it was so bad because the, the Japanese knew they were coming across. The Marines were out in the open, you know, they had to get across. There was no choice.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  And of course there was even less jungle growth for them because so much of it had been denuded by pre-invasion artillery and then ongoing shell fire. Once the fighting started.

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  I mean, it really, they were just exposed the entire time.

• 1:53:55Jocko Willink?

  It's a nightmare. Um, speaking of, speaking of the Japanese here, this is an interesting point that you make. You say, quote, "My, my, my fascination with World War II was not limited to the Pacific theater. My father and I also had many conversations through the years about the European theater, theater during which he compared various tactics used by the Japanese and with which he obviously had experienced firsthand to the tactics used by the Germans, which he read about extensively.

• 1:54:19Jocko Willink?

  "The Germans were fine soldiers," he said, "and I wouldn't wanted to have, and I wouldn't have wanted to fight them, but at the end of the day, they would bed down and get their rest. The damn Japanese were moving around all night and all the time. They never let us get any rest."

• 1:54:43Jocko Willink?

  They get across the airfield. I'm gonna fast forward a little bit. And again, get the book so you can read about all the details of that. They get across the airfield, uh, back to the book. They were dug in next to First Lieutenant Edward Hillbilly Jones, K Company's machine gun platoon leader and Sergeant John A. Tescovich. Tescovich. Tescovich. These two K Company men were very familiar to me growing up as my father spoke of them often. I will remember my parents discussing their Twilight Foxhole conversations in the, in the later years. As darkness fell, things were quiet in the area except for outgoing artillery fire.

• 1:55:22Jocko Willink?

  Hillbilly and Sergeant Tescovich, known as the Mad Russian, crept over and sat on the edge of their gun pit. Hillbilly, Hillbilly was second only to Ak Ak in popularity and was highly respected. Perhaps, and this is your dad quote, "Perhaps it was because he'd come from the ranks and not from Officer Candidate School as a 90-day wonder that we thought so highly of him," end quote. In the quiet, reassuring words of Hillbilly, asking my father about his family in Mobile and expressing optimism that they would prevail in the coming weeks of hardship on Pelluloo, my father found a sense of peace and solace. I told him I felt ashamed of how scared I was. He described to me, "And I remember Hillbilly said to me, 'Don't worry about it, Sledgehammer.

• 1:56:06Jocko Willink?

  Everybody else is just as scared as you. It's just that you don't mind admitting it.'" Sergeant Tescovich was a different kind of character than Hillbilly, but he was equally respected. Quote, "He was from the industrial Northeast and had an accent so hard, as hard as nails. He was not a large man, but was muscular and had obviously spent his youth in hard work. He was a capable NCO, loved the Marine Corps and did his job well. He told us some of his previous life and talked about how he, he thought the war would progress," end quote. As I remember my father telling it, it had gotten quiet and suddenly I heard in a voice as clear as me talking to you right now, a voice say, "You will survive the war."

• 1:56:51Jocko Willink?

  And I looked at Hillbilly and Tuskovich and they looked at me and I said, did you guys hear that? And they looked at me and said, hear what? I hear a machine gun off to the left. And I said, you guys didn't hear somebody say something? And they said, no, we didn't hear anything like that. In that moment, as the twilight turned to darkness on Pellaloo, my father felt that the voice he heard was a sign from God that he would make it through. He was very skeptical of people seeing visions and hearing voices. And he said so many times throughout his life, but he did also didn't doubt what he experienced right then. Hillbilly and Tuskovich were both later killed on Pellaloo. Powerful moment for your dad.

• 1:57:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that iconic twilight conversation. You know, my mom and I were able to talk about that when I got to this point in my manuscript. And if you knew, if you'd known my dad, you know, religion was something that was very private to him. I know what he believed, but he didn't talk about that very much. It was, it was just something he held very close. But my mother and I had this conversation about the voice, you know, you will survive the war. And I don't remember my father talking about that. And she said, you know, I think your dad just felt like that that gave him comfort in what was such

• 1:58:11Speaker 01

  a tough time in his life. But, I mean, really, yeah, I mean, to hear you read it and for me to go back and read it in his book and to think about when I depicted that, because I'm adding in context about Hillbilly and Sergeant Tuskovich, I mean, that was an extraordinary thing for my dad to talk about because you, like I said, you just, him talking about visions and hearing voices, that he just wasn't that kind of guy. So he obviously heard something. And I don't, I mean, look, guys, when I talk about my dad, I don't speak, I'm going

• 1:58:49Speaker 01

  to use the term hyperbole, you know, I've never sat here, oh, my dad was a great hero. I've never said that. He was a hero to me personally, because as my, just like your father was to you and your father was to you, you know, I mean, but would I elevate him over another veteran? No. He was a 60 millimeter mortar man who did his job. You know, I've heard men he served with that I was able to meet and talk to, he was a damn good Marine. But, and maybe I'm straying a little bit here, but I, I just, that for him to,

• 1:59:26Speaker 01

  to write that and talk about that, that was, that was an iconic moment for him.

• 1:59:36Jocko Willink?

  And of course you have those iconic moments. And the war goes on. Fast forward a little bit that this is quote from your dad, then the nightly routine commenced. The passwords, star shells, artillery whistling over Japanese raids and infiltrators, bursts of small arms fire, corpsmen at the bang of grenades, calls for mortar flares and HE on the company front, heavy artillery fire on and on and on until dawn.

• 2:00:01Jocko Willink?

  Again, you, you read these books or you, you watch, you know, the, uh, when you watch the Pacific, you know, there's 12 straight minutes, and I'm making this number up, but there's 12 straight minutes or nine straight minutes of machine guns and chaos. And sitting on my couch in my air conditioned house, I'm getting unnerved after 12 minutes. Now imagine it's not 12 minutes, it's not 12 hours, it's not 12 days. It is weeks and weeks and weeks of this.

• 2:00:42Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on with the book, this was the third night on the island. And certain realities of the infantryman's life were becoming painfully obvious. My father expressed it to me about as eloquently as he could. One of the things that a frontline infantryman faced was filth. Filth and fear were, went right together. By the third day, either you were, either you or your foxhole buddy told each other that, that he stunk. And of course you both stank from the terrible heat, the sweat, absolutely no way to get yourself cleaned up.

• 2:01:16Jocko Willink?

  So that's what they're doing and it's just day after day after day. Isn't it strange? Like I, I'll, I'll train jujitsu or something. I, you know, I, I need to take a shower within 15 minutes, you know, I'm spoiled pathetic human and I trained jujitsu and I gotta take a shower. I work out in the morning. I take a shower and here are these guys in the mud, filth, piss, shit, just and blood and guts and they're just a day after day after day after day.

• 2:01:52Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to fast forward a little bit. There's, there's more fighting. There's more details.

• 2:02:00Jocko Willink?

  At the end, this is your dad. At the end of the first week, our entire division had suffered nearly 4,000 casualties. About 1,000 more than the second marine division lost in Tarawa. During this time, first marine regiment had lost 1,672 men or 56% of that regiment's strength. The division's heavy losses troubled the third amphibious group, uh, third amphibious corps commander. On September 21st, General Roy Geiger visited the CP of the first Marines to get a clearer picture of the situation. He concluded the first Marines were finished and said that the regiment should be relieved and replaced

• 2:02:41Jocko Willink?

  by an army regiment. General Geiger was not inclined to impose his will on General Rupertus, but he finally felt it necessary. He realized, he realized the first Marines were shot to pieces and the fifth and seventh Marines who had suffered heavily would need help.

• 2:03:03Jocko Willink?

  Brutal.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  Let me just inject really quick. So General Geiger, the first marine aviator, I believe. Am I right, Dave?

• 2:03:10Speaker 02

  Correct. There's airfields named after him and Geiger Field. He's a historically prominent guy.

• 2:03:18Jocko Willink?

  And he didn't wanna like say, hey, you gotta take some help, but eventually he's like, you can need some help.

• 2:03:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that that's a that whole dynamic is um

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  you know, the the army and I actually wrote an article for World War Two magazine that that it was fall 2022 issue where I spoke about marine and army interservice cooperation.

• 2:03:47Speaker 01

  Because my father, obviously fiercely proud to be a marine, you know, very marine centric in his philosophy and views of everything and sense of his free decor. But I thought he did a really good job in with the old breed of stepping away from that, stepping back from that and saying, okay, a situation like Pellaloo, we needed all the help we could have. You know, at that point, you need all of your assets. When you're facing an existential threat that is grinding your people down. It's not about, well, Marines are tougher than soldiers, let the Marines get it done.

• 2:04:29Speaker 01

  I don't want to go too far into the whole general repertory question. I I think the Marines who were there, my father being one of them, had some pretty definite ideas on his lack of willingness to bring in the 81st.

• 2:04:47Jocko Willink?

  Well, uh, Dave and I were we we got to see firsthand all the interservice rivalry just disappear because the Battle of Vermont, the enemy didn't care if you were wearing a Marine Corps uniform, an army uniform, a Navy uniform, they were trying to kill you and we needed to work together to kill them first and just a really powerful unifying factor that comes into play when things get bad enough.

• 2:05:21Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:05:22Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 2:05:26Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. The date was September 25th, D plus 10. Although the first Marines were now out of the fight, 20 more grueling days would pass before the 5th Marines were relieved. They would be just as depleted from their time in the ridges. When they board, and again, I'm saying some things right now that if you, it's like, what am I talking about ridges? Get the book so you understand what that is. When they boarded the trucks, they headed south along the east road, then northward toward the west road. As they drove past the airfield, they were amazed at the terrain's transition from a combat zone to an American airbase. Clean-shaven rear echelon personnel eyed filthy, bearded, and bedraggled infantrymen curiously as they drove by on the trucks. My father

• 2:06:08Jocko Willink?

  described it as being animals observed in a circus parade.

• 2:06:19Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. As my father and his fellow Marines passed through the army lines, they could hear the chatter of Japanese machine guns and see bluish-white tracers passing high above them. The men up on the ridge were pinned down. The witty, likable, and this is your dad, quote, "The witty, likable sergeant," and this is Tescovich, "with whom I had a memorable, had the memorable conversation the night he and Hillbilly came over to my foxhole, was killed on September 25th while riding on a tank directing his fire. He was shot in the abdomen. What a waste. We all greatly regretted his death."

• 2:07:04Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. While Snafu and I were get, this is your dad, quote, "While Snafu and I were getting the mortar set up, I could hear something behind me in the pillbox. It was Japs in there, and I could hear them talking to each other in excited voices, but not very loud. I heard metal rattle against the grating in one of the vision ports on the side of the bunker. They were getting, they were trying to get a rifle barrel through there. I grabbed my carbine and yelled to Bergen, 'There's nips in that pillbox,' end quote.

• 2:07:37Jocko Willink?

  And this is obviously a famous scene in the Pacific.

• 2:07:41Jocko Willink?

  Bergen at first didn't believe what my father had said. Sledgehammer, you're cracking up. Fortunately for all concerned, however, he took him seriously and moved over to the ventilator port directly behind my father was a small square opening about six by eight inches. Covered with iron bars about a half an inch apart.

• 2:07:57Jocko Willink?

  There was a Japanese soldier right there and Bergen shot him point blank with his carbine. This caused a stir among the other Japanese inside the structure. My father told me, quote, "We are all on alert. We were all on alert when the shooting started. A JAP threw a grenade out the entrance to my left and I yelled grenade and do for cover behind the sand breastwork that protected the entrance. It was L shaped to protect entrance from our fire. The Japs tossed out a few more grenades, but they exploded and none of us got hit. They were all hugging the deck. I remember most of the guys crawled around to the front and were staying low. So the Japs inside couldn't see them or shoot at them. John Redifer and Vincent Santos jumped on top Bergen yelled to me, "Look over that wall and see what's in there, sledgehammer."

• 2:08:39Jocko Willink?

  My father was closest to the entrance at the end of the bunker as he said to me, quote, "I was trained to follow orders without question. So I looked over that wall down into the bunker. It almost cost him his life. No more than five or six feet away was a Japanese machine gunner crouched over his weapon. Quote, "I was staring right into the muzzle of his machine gun. As soon as I saw that I jerked my head down so fast my helmet almost flew off. Because my chin strap wasn't buckled. As I did, he fired a quick burst from his machine gun. The rounds went right over my head through the sand that was piled up. To that protective wall by the door, end quote. In July 2006, I flew to Texas and visited Bergen. He showed me around Lancaster in his red pickup truck. He reminisced about the war, including the action at the bunker.

• 2:09:24Jocko Willink?

  Quote, "I told sledgehammer to look over that wall. The man only had 13 days of combat experience. I should have looked myself. The JAP machine gunner fired a burst and almost took his head off. He ducked. Thank God."

• 2:09:38Jocko Willink?

  Do you remember him saying anything I asked? Yeah, I heard him saying a kind of horse voice, "I'm okay. I'm all right."

• 2:09:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, the bunker on Ingevus, I mean, that was, so kneeling in that spot, you know, I was able to do that and that, we had machetes with us that day because obviously we're hacking our way through overgrown jungle growth to get to that structure. And I remember my friend, Eric Maylander, saying, you know, he stood in that spot first. He said, Henry, do you realize if your dad had been a split second slower, you would have never been born. So, you know, I was able to kneel right there and look down into that bunker, which, you know, it was full of pandanus tree roots and water when we were there. But that was quite a moment. I took my

• 2:10:32Speaker 01

  machete and actually hacked out a chunk of that concrete from the, from that little parapet right there, which I still have. But, you know, right in front of that thing, guys, you could see, because after they took that bunker, and he describes this, of course, in great detail with the old breed, they dug their mortar gun pits, you know, like, just right in front of it, and then ended up spending the night there. And he talked about how, you know, after the Amtrak came up with flamethrower and all that, and they knocked it out, it was burning the rest of the, the rest of the night. But to be there and see those gun positions. And we, I actually

• 2:11:16Speaker 01

  saw, and this speaks to your question, what was it like to go to Pelluloo? I mean, there were canisters of 60 millimeter rounds still on the edges of these foxholes when I was there. A lot of the ordinance has been picked up in the ensuing years, so that's probably not there anymore. But on that day, to see a gun position, and there were probably two or three of them, and to see canisters of 60 mil rounds. And I'm, I hope some nephew or son or daughter or granddaughter, grandson, whatever, hears this, and this inspires you to go visit the ground where your loved one fought. To see those rounds and look at that and know...

• 2:12:02Speaker 01

  We're looking at him and Eric and I were saying, I mean shit, my dad probably had his hands on those rounds, you know, placing them there and obviously they didn't get used because they were still in the canister, you know, they were packed four to a canister, I think on the sixties, but to know that he probably had his hands on some of them. I mean, maybe I'm just weird, but that, that stirs something within me, you know, it was, it just really, I just felt that visceral connection, man. I mean, and I talk about how we, which I don't want to skip through the rest of the afternoon at that structure, at that site, but you know, to be able to call my dad on a sat phone, when we got back

• 2:12:46Speaker 01

  across to Pellaloo, at the storyboard resort where we were staying, and it wasn't a resort really, it was a bunch of little cabins, um, in the jungle there, but to be able to talk to him and say, hey, we found that bunker, you know, and like I said, I write about it in there, and you may have highlighted some of it.

• 2:13:06Jocko Willink?

  Go ahead, talk, talk.

• 2:13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, just to, I don't even know the time difference, you know, it was late in the afternoon that day, for us, it was four o'clock the previous morning, I don't even know, but he was asleep, but it woke him up, but I, you know, I think my mom answered, I said, hey, good mom, is dad, I gotta talk to dad, you know, and he came on the line, you know, and, and, you know, I said, hey, man, we found the bunker. Like, I knelt in that spot, you know, the spot where the Jap Nambu gunner almost took your head off, which it actually was not a Nambu, with a Jap machine gunner, almost took your head off. He said, yeah, I know the spot. I said, I knelt in that spot, dad. I said, that, I

• 2:13:48Speaker 01

  said, man, that, I'm just proud to be your son. And he just said, well, I'm proud of you too, big shot.

• 2:13:57Speaker 01

  You know, but that was, that was a seminal moment for me, man. That's, that was cool.

• 2:14:06Jocko Willink?

  You know, there's an important point that you make after this, after you go through that story, both from your perspective and your dad's perspective. You say, I was 16 when With the Old Breed was published and I read it when we received the first copies from Presidio Press. Though I knew the story well, I always remember the feeling I had when first reading about how my father's bullets tore into the man's chest and the look of agony he saw in his face. And this is something that you described earlier, when he kills one of the guys coming out of the bar.

• 2:14:35Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:14:37Jocko Willink?

  Over the years, I've asked many people, what is it about his memoir that they find so compelling? Almost all of them have answered his humanity. I saw that when I read this passage as a teenager, but it was more than that to me. He just killed a man at close range and he was not shy in describing the revulsion he felt at the inhumanity of war. I felt a tremendous sense of pride in him, not only for doing bravely his duty, but still retaining a semblance of decency amid the horror of it all.

• 2:15:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think that's one of the things that makes the book so unique and so powerful and so important, so important for young Marines to read, you know, for young Marines. Cause it's very easy to dehumanize the enemy, to dehumanize each other. And the fact that your dad maintained that most of the time, you know, like you can definitely, there's, there's frustration for sure, but for him to get through it with his humanity intact, is what I think is one of the most moving things about it. And one of the most important things for young military people to explore and learn about.

• 2:15:56Jocko Willink?

  Um.

• 2:15:59Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit, the battle on Pellaloo had been raging for two weeks at this point, and the men were exhausted physically and emotionally. When my father became emotional, a lieutenant, Duke Ellington, from Birmingham, Alabama, offered a few words of much-needed encouragement. This is your dad. What Duke said was neither dramatic, was neither a dramatic battlefield oration nor a pep talk, but it gave me what I needed and remained exactly in my memory.

• 2:16:30Jocko Willink?

  And then he says, among our K Company killed was Sergeant Rigney. He was a fine man who had insisted that some man with relatives take his place on the list of veterans to be sent home before Pellaloo. Rigney had been raised in an orphanage, so he had no family to go home to. A Japanese shot him from a cave as Rigney stood in front of it, firing his Tommy gun into it. He made no effort to be cautious, and it was as though he didn't want to live, as one man said.

• 2:17:11Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward back in the ridges of northern Pellaloo.

• 2:17:16Jocko Willink?

  This is from your dad. The following quote from Time Magazine's Robert Martin on October 16th, 1944, describes some of the terrible conditions we encountered on Pellaloo. Quote, "For sheer brutality and fatigue, I think it surpasses anything yet seen in the Pacific, certainly from the standpoint of number of troops involved and time taken to make the island secure."

• 2:17:46Jocko Willink?

  Your dad goes on to say, "Some of the veterans who had been with the division since Guadalcanal told me they never saw such constant intense night activity. I saw many of my comrades killed and wounded in these nightmarish episodes. Japanese special close-quarter combat units holed up in caves all day long, so when night came, they were well-rested and out for Our blood, the whole company often stayed awake nearly all night warding them off. We fired mortar HE and flares through grenades and used other weapons to kill and keep them out of our foxholes. Sometimes they slip past us and will get into a previously captured position and snipe on us from the rear.

• 2:18:29Jocko Willink?

  Twenty-four hours a day. That's what's going on.

• 2:18:36Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward around, this is from your dad. Around three October, a K company NCO told me that a total of twenty-one Japanese infiltrators were killed in the company area more that morning. It was such a rough night that most of us wouldn't forget it. Imagine that twenty-one, twenty-one enemy killed in one night in your rear area. That's insane.

• 2:19:03Jocko Willink?

  You say this by October fifth, the seventh Marines were almost as decimated as the first Marines and the fifth Marines began to relieve them, but the worst was not over.

• 2:19:13Jocko Willink?

  Your dad quote, "Some of the men of the battered and exhausted seventh Marines were still going to be killed or wounded in actions in some of the draws and valleys in Pellalu. Also, the Japanese continued to infiltrate back into captured positions and snipe at the airfield and other areas. Finding and destroying these fanatics was euphemistically called mopping up where a Marine could be killed just as dead as hitting the beach or being hit in a big attack."

• 2:19:39Jocko Willink?

  So some of the things that they're getting told to do now, like, oh, you just go mop it up.

• 2:19:43Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:19:44Jocko Willink?

  Japanese bullets don't, they don't have mop it up bullets.

• 2:19:48Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:19:48Jocko Willink?

  They just have bullets.

• 2:19:51Speaker 02

  That is a, that is a,

• 2:19:54Speaker 02

  that's a line. You just said, "Kill you just as dead is the day you land on the beach." I think as you said that, that's a powerful way to describe your dad's words of like, it doesn't, they don't, they don't care when it was or where it happened. They will kill you just as dead. That's a really powerful line because so much that gets portrayed as you get past the apex of these battles.

• 2:20:14Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:20:15Speaker 02

  It's like, oh, the battle was largely over or we had secured the victory and the outcome was, was insured. Well, that means nothing to the Marines that had to continue on those cleanup operations or mopping up operations. That's just a really strong line. The way you said that really struck me.

• 2:20:32Speaker 01

  The, you know, the thing that really contributed to all of that was the terrain on Peleliu. You know, it was so convoluted. There were so many caves and canyons and ravines and ridges and interlocking fields of fire and which Peleliu was not the first time they'd seen that in the Pacific. You know, every island had coral and ridges and things like that, but Peleliu just, you know, Colonel Nakagawa, who was the Japanese commander on site there, was a tactical genius. I mean, he was able to exploit that terrain to such a frightening degree.

• 2:21:17Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. "We noticed three Army rear echelon souvenir hunters coming along from the direction of the airfield. They carried no weapons, canteens or other equipments, wore fatigued caps and clean neatly pressed dungarees. The men were clean, shaven and appeared relaxed. We gaped open mouthed them walking jauntily along the road, talking and laughing loudly. They had a spring in their step like it was all a picnic and frequently picked up and pocketed shell fragments and other war debris which littered the area all around. They didn't see us under the tarp, nor did they notice the half tracks either. I was thinking some pretty spiteful thoughts about them. Just as they were across

• 2:21:59Jocko Willink?

  the road opposite to us, the Army mortar men called out fire orders. Then they fired and the souvenir hunters panicked at the sound. Combat troops got jittery at the sound of small arms fire and shells but would have immediately recognized the muffled bump of our 81s firing and probably not flinched. It was only after the war when you got home and began to unwind that you jumped when someone slammed a door or dropped the book." In action, our ears were so acutely tuned to every subtle sound that we reacted only to those that meant danger, but the clean men didn't know the difference. They started rushing around in a circle, in a circle, each following the other with the arms outstretched and looking wildly about them. Then they started bumping into each other. In their panic, they didn't

• 2:22:43Jocko Willink?

  even know enough to hit the deck. We knew that the airfield had been shelled by Japanese periodically, and some rear echelon troops had been killed and wounded. So they apparently thought this was the end. Finally, they hit the deck as the 81s continued firing. It all happened very quickly, and George Snaffo and I roared with laughter and slapped our knees. It was the best laugh we'd had in a long time. It was the only time during the war that I laughed at someone who was afraid, and I still enjoy the mental picture of that panicky threesome.

• 2:23:12Speaker 01

  So there you, you know, you get into the disdain that they had for, and I mean, look, I know it takes, it takes guys in the rear, and we all get that. And I'm not, as a non-military guy, I'm not going to sit here and insult anybody who may listen to this podcast, whose job is to be, you know, nothing but respect for your service. We're speaking through the eyes of these guys. They resented rear echelon guys coming up and just looking for, because my dad would always tell me, he goes, oh, man, they just look for Jap Samurai sabers, or Jap flags, and try to sell it to somebody, or even worse, take it home and show it to somebody and act like they picked it up under, you know, that, that just the whole concept was

• 2:23:53Speaker 01

  very troublesome to him. But, you know, in that moment, there's that going on. The other cool thing is the fact that, you know, we spoke earlier of interservice rivalry. You know, he talked, I think he said, when the three guys realized that what was happening, then they started, they were, you know, looking pretty sheepish, and each one pointing at the other, and they go walking back down West Road. And he says, I'm sorry, those army mortarmen didn't get to, because they were too busy with their fire mission, you know, and they had 81s in the back of a half-track is what that was.

• 2:24:30Speaker 01

  And he said, I'm sorry that they didn't get to enjoy because they're over there doing their job as mortar men, you know, here are these guys, but they were so busy. They didn't get to see the hilarity of that moment. But, you know, that little, that little anecdote right there, guys, I mean, I remember my mom, because she was still in pretty good shape at this point when I was writing this project. And she, she remembered, oh, the clean men. I remember going through and reading that part when it got edited out, you know, and she, that amused her, you know, and so, um, I'm glad I was able to get that in there.

• 2:25:05Jocko Willink?

  That's classic. And it's like, they're laughing out loud. You know what I mean? I mean, that's so important to remember. And they show some of it in the movie. They show some, they show some laughter and humor in the movie. But I reckon there's probably even more than they showed in the movie. Um, you know, you, you, you, things are still funny. Even when things suck, they're still funny. Uh, fast forward a little bit in the, this is your dad, in the process of our battalion moving into the positions of the second battalion, fifth Marines, Japanese sniper fire was intense and deadly accurate. There'd been progress while my squad was on our way back to the company from the position near the beach. There were 22 casualties. And one of these was Captain Haldine.

• 2:25:53Jocko Willink?

  And then you say this, in 1999, I got to see many of the areas where my father fought in 1944 on a trip like that. However, it's never, it's never possible to see everything on your list. I wanted to visit Hill 140, but time and logistics conspired against us, and I was not able to. It was just as well. I knew in my heart that my father felt an enormous sense of pride that I wanted to travel to the other side of the world and retrace his footsteps. I think it was somehow edifying to him. And even though he didn't want to relive the horror and tragedy of Pelulu, I do believe he enjoyed seeing the pictures I took and hearing about my adventures. Had I visited Hill 140, however, I would not have shown him pictures or even talk, told him about it. Anything that would have evoked the memory of Akak's loss would have been too much.

• 2:26:44Speaker 01

  I felt that sounded almost hyperbolic. I used that word earlier to say that would have been too much, but I'm, I'm just telling you guys, I, yeah, I would not have even, I mean, Hill 140, there was a lot of action around there that I just really wanted to visit that spot. We just couldn't get there, you know, it just, you know how it is when you go on trips like this, man, they're just logistics and everybody wants to see something different and it just couldn't happen. But I really wouldn't have even told him if I had, you know, and that's, that just gets to the nature of the kind of guy that my dad was. I mean, I mean, look, I'm his son and there's a part of me that just would have

• 2:27:25Speaker 01

  wanted to say, Dad, it was at that point in time, 55 years ago, you know, you've had a good life, move on from it. But I would not have even broached that subject with him because I just, he was just the kind of guy that you couldn't, he couldn't just.

• 2:27:42Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, that was the day we lost our beloved company commander. Oh, well, you know, that kind of thing. He just couldn't shrug that off. It was just too deep for him.

• 2:27:52Jocko Willink?

  It's interesting too, because when you watch the interviews with Sid and your dad, and, and even Sid, he just like, you know, I was just a guy that I just kind of moved on, you know, he just, just, that's what he said. And it seemed like your dad had a harder time.

• 2:28:10Speaker 01

  He did, and I will say this, and look, I grew up calling Sid Phillips Uncle Sid. That's what Sid Phillips meant to me. All right. My mom just passed away a few years ago. All right. The gentleman who presided over her funeral was Sid's, Sid's son, who was a Baptist preacher. I could not think of a better way to close the loop between our two families. Well, not, not closing anything out between her, I don't mean that.

• 2:28:38Speaker 01

  That was something that just meant a lot to me that Sid Phillips' son presided over my mom's funeral. The Phillipses are dear friends of mine. I love them. Our dads loved each other. Sid's World War II experience, Gualling Canal, Cape Gloucester.

• 2:28:58Speaker 01

  You know, everything in World War II was, every battle was different. You know, your children, each one's different from the other. My dad was not at Guadalcanal, he was not at Cape Closter. Pella Luna and Okinawa were different. Um, you know, Sid moved on quicker and easier than my father did. But I'm glad, actually, we're touching on this, guys, because this gets into a lot of why I do all this, why I wrote this book. After the War by Ken Burns, you know, and you see it in the Pacific. They delve into my dad's nightmares, certainly not to a huge degree in the Pacific, but they

• 2:29:43Speaker 01

  only had so much time to do it in, in Part 10. But a lot has been said about, well, you know, Sledge really struggled when he came home. Well, you know, I would posit that a lot of those guys did. So, we get so much of why I do this, so much of why I wrote this book, is to show the world that, look, if, for anybody who just has a passing, like, they, okay, they watched the Ken Burns, the war. Okay, they watched the Pacific. Oh, that Sledge guy, man, he really struggled when he came home. I'm here to tell you, he may have struggled, but he won his struggles. You know, he, he met a wonderful woman, Jeannie, my mom. You know, they got married, had a wonderful marriage. He raised a family, he had a great career.

• 2:30:24Speaker 01

  You know, by all counts, Eugene Sledge won his struggles. And I just feel really strongly, you know, the torch has been passed to me, as has been said to me, I didn't just come up with that, people have said that to me. And when I do what I do to hopefully carry on his legacy, to the degree that I humbly can, you know, I, I, nobody can say it like I can, because I have that unique perspective. He won his struggles. If there is anybody who could effectively and successfully compartmentalize the angst, the PTSD, whatever you want to call it.

• 2:31:10Speaker 01

  If there was anybody who could compartmentalize that and keep it from his family, it was Eugene Sledge. You know, I saw instances of, and we can talk about it if you want, you know, of where those struggles really started to creep through the surface, through the veneer, but they were few and far between. And I even say in my writing there that despite what the man had been through, he was this classic all-American father. You know, and sorry if that sounds Norman Rockwellian, but not to me that there would be anything wrong with that, but, um, but he was.

• 2:31:55Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, if there's anything that I remember about my dad, I mean, you know, I can remember being downstairs as a kid and he'd be, and my mom would be upstairs and the way our house was built, it was a split floor plan, so the living room was upstairs. But I'd be in the den downstairs and, you know, I could hear him and my mom talking about something, I could hear him just guffawing, just laughing because he told a joke or something. I mean, he just had this great sense of humor. I mean, he, and you probably picked this up, Jocko, because I mean, it's freaking beautiful the way you've like marked so many places in my book there because you spent time with it. And I tried to illustrate that he wanted to bring happiness and joy into our home.

• 2:32:37Speaker 01

  You know, we, we, my, my family has always had dogs. We, we love our dogs, you know? And, and my dad, when I was a kid, he would say, "Look, if you come home and you've had a bad day at work, you better not kick the dog." And, you know, as a kid, I'm like, "Okay, okay, what do you mean by that?" And he goes, "I'm telling you what I mean is, you, your dog comes up to you, your family comes up to you happy to see you in that moment. If you've had a bad day and somebody, and he didn't use this word, pissed you off at work, that's my word. He said, "You, you don't kick the dog. You don't take that out on your family. You compartmentalize that and deal with it yourself." You know, and my father did that more successfully than I do.

• 2:33:23Jocko Willink?

  You know, a real important

• 2:33:29Jocko Willink?

  moment for me. So we, I think it was before we pressed record today, we're, I was talking about a guy named Tom Fife, who we, we had on a podcast, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, and Purple Heart, World War II, Purple Heart Korea, Purple Heart Vietnam. He ended up as a battalion commander in Vietnam. And so he's on the podcast and we're going through stuff and we're talking. And, um, you know, as we're talking about operations and op tempo and what were the missions like in this? And then I, I said, uh, and so we're talking about now he's in a battalion commander in Vietnam. And I asked him, just almost from a statistical perspective of a, of a,

• 2:34:11Jocko Willink?

  of a, of a soldier, of a, of a combat leader, myself, from a statistical perspective, I asked him something along the lines of like, well, you know, how many casualties did you take in your battalion?

• 2:34:25Jocko Willink?

  And at that moment,

• 2:34:29Jocko Willink?

  he got choked up.

• 2:34:32Jocko Willink?

  And why I say it was an important moment for me is because I realized that when I talk about my guys and I talk about my friends that I lost and I get choked up, I realized he's talking about his battalion that he led 50, 60 years ago. And this man still gets choked up and still gets emotional. And that's when I realized, and I have explained this to a thousand veterans since then. You know what I've told them?

• 2:35:00Jocko Willink?

  It's okay.

• 2:35:02Jocko Willink?

  Totally normal. It's absolutely normal that when you talk about your friends or you talk about situations that you were in, or you talk about people that you lost, it doesn't matter if it's been five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, it doesn't matter.

• 2:35:20Jocko Willink?

  It will still hit you. And to me, as you're describing this, I don't think of that as a struggle. I think of that as being a human being. And, and look, do things dissipate somewhat over time? Yeah, they sure they do. You know, I, I can talk more about things now.

• 2:35:38Jocko Willink?

  But there's still no guarantee that I'm going to get through a situation and not get emotional. There's absolutely no guarantee whatsoever. And so, yeah, I think when I think about these things and different people are different, right? And of course, your experiences, you know, we could lose a guy, but he's, you know, I don't know him that well, but you know him really well. That's a totally different thing. It's a totally different thing. And so, yeah, I look at, I look at, um, you know, these, these struggles that we talk about. And I've told this again, I've told this to many guys like this, that's normal. It's totally normal. What are you gonna go home? And I had this conversation with a, with a Marine recently who had been through a terrible situation, lost a guy in combat.

• 2:36:24Jocko Willink?

  He didn't feel like he did the best job. You know, because he's rattled and he's in the leadership position. And, you know, and then, and then, you know, he, he struggled with that. Same thing. And I said, bro, look at what you went through. It is not, it's not nor, it's not normal for a 23 year old person to see another 23 year old person die. That's not normal. Then to have it happen again and again, and then to voluntarily go into that situation where people are dying and do that over and over again, day after day, night after night, for months on end, that is not normal human behavior.

• 2:37:07Jocko Willink?

  So the fact that you have to make some adjustments mentally and it takes some time to figure some things out, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it and it's perfectly okay. And, and this is what we as human beings go through and everyone's a little bit different. And so, yeah, I think that, um, and I, this is again, not to fast forward too much, but at some point your dad's talking about, uh, the concussion that he's experiencing. And now we know that never mind having a bomb blow up next to you. Every time you shoot a machine gun, you get little micro concussions. Never mind a, a, a rocket launcher, never mind a landmine, like all these other things, breaching charges.

• 2:37:51Jocko Willink?

  All those things are impacting you. And so, yeah, as I, I look at this, and again, to me, that's one of the most powerful things about this book is your dad came home.

• 2:38:04Jocko Willink?

  And went to school, had a family, had a job, educated people, was happy, smiling, laughing, and carried on with an incredible, for lack of a better word, a normal life. Despite all this abnormality of being a 20, 22-year-old kid, surrounded by death. That's what this is, that's what makes it so powerful to me.

• 2:38:38Speaker 01

  Well, this is where I have to, you know, like, when you're talking about what you just talked about, I'm not going to sit here and go, "Yeah, right." You know, like, I know what you're talking about, because I don't. It's moments like this that I almost don't even feel worthy of sitting here, to be honest, because I know you have a lot of combat veterans in here. And when I, and I've met a lot of Marines. Man, I love Marines. I love the Marines. I feel a bond with Marine Corps. And when I meet them, you know, I, I mean, the first thing I do is I say, "Look, I've never humped a pack and a rifle, okay? I'm not going to sit here and jump up in the middle of you and you guys when you're rimming it. I'm not going to, I'm not going to breach that." Because I don't know what you've been through. I can live it vicariously through my dad, who just happens to be a well-known, iconic WWII veteran.

• 2:39:24Speaker 01

  But I'm not going to try to insert myself into, like, even pretending to know what you're talking about there, Jocko. And I mean, that's, I just try to always recognize that.

• 2:39:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think one of the biggest mistakes that we've made as a society with our veterans is when someone is, when someone is sad, when someone is emotional, we, we, we call that a problem.

• 2:40:00Jocko Willink?

  And it's not a problem. Like, it's normal.

• 2:40:08Speaker 01

  Dave's got something.

• 2:40:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, listen, I'm, I'm, I've been on this podcast a lot and I spend ninety my percent of my time just listening because it's captivating. I think there's a component to this as I think about it. And I think what Jocko is saying is what I feel too. And I remember at the beginning of the podcast, you said, you guys have been through this and I just like started shaking my head. That's why Jocko made the comment, like, try not to compare us to, to your dad. But I think one of the things that is remarkable about this podcast, and I've shared this with Jocko from the very beginning, is that, and I wrote down the name Steel, I don't know who that is, I know that from you, is that it has this unique attribute of, of bringing back to life, names and people that

• 2:40:47Speaker 02

  otherwise would vanish. I think the, the, the ultimate, the ultimate story of a man's success in enduring that challenge is what he creates into the world. And you, you are manifesting that. That is, your lack of combat experience, I think in some ways actually makes this story more powerful because your capacity to share with the world what your dad was able to do in a way that ultimately delivered what your contributions of the world, which is not just this book, but all these things, is the ultimate, it's the ultimate

• 2:41:26Speaker 02

  compliment to Sledge, to Eugene Sledge. There is, it might even be diminished had you been a Marine, because I think you'd have this sense of like deference to your dad's experience. You are the outcome of his success in enduring what happened. And I'm sitting here listening to you and I, I, listen, the, I don't know if humility is, is, is, is genetic, but clearly you have that humility, which I'm certainly grateful for the way you're saying that. But as I'm sitting here listening to you talk about what you can't necessarily share firsthand, you're the byproduct of the ultimate story is did these men come home and what did they make of themselves after this, other than just their experience there? You are the

• 2:42:11Speaker 02

  living personification of that, who has this, I think this burden to try to share this. That comes through so powerfully for me to listen to you talk about this. I don't think, I can't imagine your dad being more proud of anything than, than your ability to reflect to the world what he became in who, in who you are as a human being. So I can't tell you like, What that means to me, listening to you have this conversation, watching this back and forth, that's as important as anything that might have ever happened. So I think, and not that you should take pride in that, I think you know that as an adult, but, but I'm watching that, like, this is Eugene Sled's legacy that goes far beyond the battlefield of Okinawa is what you are. And that's, that is a remarkable thing for me to look at right now.

• 2:42:52Speaker 01

  Well, that's, man, that's pretty powerful and beautifully said. And, and I thank you for that. Um, I'll, I will tell you a cool story with the HBO guys that ties directly to what you said, if I could. When they had finished shooting part 10, um, our friend, friend of my family, Kirk Seduski, who's pretty high up, was, is high up still with Playtime, but certainly was back then too. Very key point of contact along with Bruce McKenna with, with our family. And they came to visit us and my mother was still in great shape at that point in time. And my son, who's 16 now, was just, you know, year and a half

• 2:43:35Speaker 01

  old, two years old, just this gurgling, happy little, you know. And we sat there in my mother's living room and they brought us part 10. And it was really weird to see it because it was kind of a rough cut. Like, just to give you an example, not to go off in the weeds, but to give you a behind the scenes example, when it showed the scene of the train coming home, when it shows my dad and Snafu, um, coming home and Bergen coming home, uh, like you saw the train, but they hadn't CGI'd in the background. So it was like this half drawn, it was really weird. So we're watching that in my, in my mother's living room. Go

• 2:44:14Speaker 01

  to the scene and they filmed this scene after we had conversations about it. My dad would talk about how he would just sit and stare at the wall. And my grandmother was a very domineering, opinionated, strong willed woman, which honestly, a lot of that strength probably passed to my dad that helped him get through what he went through. But she drove him crazy. And he said, oh, you know, Mary Frank was her name. She would come in the, we called her Gran, but she would come in the room. He said she would just come in the room and start berating him. Well, you're just sitting around doing nothing. What are you gonna do? You know? And him sitting under the tree, you know, Eugene, you need a plan for the future, you know?

• 2:44:55Jocko Willink?

  Get a job at the bank.

• 2:44:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And. My grandfather comes out there and I remember us describing this to them before they filmed that scene and my grand, my dad told me this, that my grandfather would come out there, Mary Frank, leave that boy alone. You have no idea what men like him have been through. Leave him alone. Cause my grandfather got it, you know, and she would go off just muttering and mumbling. And when we watched that scene in my mother's living room and I'm sitting there with my wife and my son who like I said, was just a toddler at that, not even a toddler really, and Kurt Siduski and a couple of other of the, of the HBO folks. And Kurt Siduski has told this story at some symposiums and my wa, my wife just always

• 2:45:39Speaker 01

  reminds me of it. And it really was a pretty cool moment. Cause he said this back to us right then, when that scene where, oh, what is her name? Uh, the, the actress who plays my grandmother, I thought she did a phenomenal job. But she says, Eugene, what's to become of you? You need a plan for the future. And he's just sitting there drinking his iced tea, just trying to blot it all out. And Kurt, you know, in that moment, right there, we're sitting there, my mom's there, Kurt Siduski's over here and my son just started gargling and making a fuss. And I'm just like, Jack, be quiet, you know, and I'm, I'm trying to hush him up. And Kurt said, when the, when we finished watching that, he said, guys,

• 2:46:23Speaker 01

  right there, when, Henry, when your son started doing that, and the actress says, what's to become of you, Eugene? Kurt said, that, that right there, that grandchild, that is what is to become of you. And Kurt told that story, I think it may have been at the 20 year Band of Brothers Actor Symposium. My wife remembers it. He told that story. And it's, you know, like my wife just thinks it's one of the coolest things she's ever heard and experienced and it really was. But to your point, Dave, I mean, yeah, that, that like my grandson, that is, you know, I mean, you know, my son, his grandson, that's

• 2:47:08Speaker 01

  the future, you know, and that, that's really probably getting there. I hope some of the hard asses that listen to this show aren't just like, Jesus Christ, what are we doing here?

• 2:47:17Jocko Willink?

  No, I think the hardest of the hard will, uh, recognize what that's all about. No doubt.

• 2:47:26Jocko Willink?

  Um, well, speaking of Dave Berke, I'm gonna go to the book here real quick.

• 2:47:32Jocko Willink?

  Quote from your dad, our Marine Corsair fighter planes flew many airstrikes against the ridges, firing machine guns, rockets, dropping bombs, napalm, both napalm and high explosives. The napalm bombs made huge columns of thick black smoke and burned off the vegetation. We delighted to see those beautiful blue gullwind Corsairs come to our support. In some locations, we could see them take off from the airfield, circle over, drop their bombs, and return to the airfield.

• 2:48:04Jocko Willink?

  And then you've got a quote in here, Lieutenant Glenn Bud Daniel, one of the Corsair pilots in VMF 114, remembered these missions. VMF 1, quote, VFM 114 was settling into the days of relatively short but important combat flights, pinpoint bombing of the caves of Pellaloo. These were very short, as time from takeoff to target was as low as 15 seconds. Marine infantry covered the entrances of the caves with a circle of smoke. The center of the circle was the cave's entrance. The outer circle of the smoke signaled the location of friendly Marines. One 500, 500 to 1,000 pound bombs are powerful. Out of necessity, we became very precise.

• 2:48:47Jocko Willink?

  And then it, quote from your dad, "Boy, that'll knock them nips out," exclaimed a buddy of mine as we watched the awesome explosions. But he was wrong. There were other airstrikes in addition to those when 1,000 pound bombs were dropped on enemy positions. Prisoners captured later said that the only effect of the bombs was to make a big noise. That's scary to think about. There you go, Dave. 15 seconds to target. Amen.

• 2:49:14Jocko Willink?

  And eventually, and you talk about, your dad talks about this, or you quote your dad talking about this in the book, they eventually had to go up and put like a man with demolitions sure, onto the cave because the bombs that they were dropping, like, they just, they had big, the Japanese had big steel doors that they draw across. Right.

• 2:49:32Speaker 01

  Like there was one place and I maybe I put it in there, but I it may have been something I had to cut out when I had to trim things down to get to the word length I was shooting for.

• 2:49:42Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's why we'll have, uh, that's why we'll have, uh, the old breed, the complete, the rest of the complete story revealed, book two.

• 2:49:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. But no, they actually, they got a 155 millimeter long, Tom, like straight line fire on one of these positions and still couldn't knock it out.

• 2:50:01Jocko Willink?

  That's crazy.

• 2:50:07Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward, at long last, it appeared that the Marines would be relieved by army troops. On October 15th, men of the 303, 321st Infantry, 81st Infantry Division moved into their area, which meant that the Marines would move to a defense zone on the northern part of Pellaloo.

• 2:50:25Jocko Willink?

  With filth, waste, rotted rations, dead and bloated bodies of the enemy lying everywhere on the island, the fly population had exploded. My father described to me, quote, "I would literally have to keep one hand free to swipe away those huge flies. They were so huge because they had so much to feed on between the dead and all the other filth on Pellaloo." And I will, and I remember trying to drink a canteen cup with coffee in it and those flies would just be all over the rim of it. And sometimes they would fall off into our coffee. This is something they needed more CGI. I think they in the mo- in the movie, in this mini series, like they show flies.

• 2:50:59Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:51:00Jocko Willink?

  But the way your dad describes them is crazy amount of flies.

• 2:51:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:08Jocko Willink?

  Another quote from your dad, fast forward, toward the last day of October, the word was passed to police up the area. All right, you guys pick up all the brush, trash, wood, and busted coral rocks smaller than your fist and pitched across the road into the swamp. We started complaining, of course, and the NCO yelled, "Some army outfit is going to take over this area and we're leaving it cleaner than it was when we got here. Marines don't ever leave a fouled up, bed of whack area. Knock off your bitchin'." Well, there's one thing for sure, said an old salt, said an old salt, we're leaving this island, there's no doubt about it. How do you know, I asked. It's easy. When they start them crap details like cleaning the brush and certain sizes of rocks off the battlefield, you can be sure the fighting's over. No officer or NCO is gonna give an order like that to guys

• 2:51:53Jocko Willink?

  he's gonna have to move up on the lines with. We are headed to the, we are headed back to Pavuvu, I bet you. He was right. We moved to another area of the island. I do not remember whether it was via trucks or on foot. As it turned out, this was the last time they moved before they left Pelu for good. So.

• 2:52:13Jocko Willink?

  And here we get to an important part. You say, "My father was finally able to use the writing paper and ink he had been carrying around in his combat pack. He wrote the first letter home to my grandparents in over a month. I still have this letter. And on the envelope, worn, faded, and duly stamped by all the proper postal authorities in the sensor, my grandmother wrote first letter off island after invasion, 32 days in the same clothes. The letter itself, written on US Marine Corps stationery, is dated October 18th, 1944, and it reads,

• 2:52:47Jocko Willink?

  "Dear Mother and Pop, Well, I came through without a scratch. God certainly watched over me and cared for me. It was your and my prayers, and I am really thankful and say so in my daily prayers. I have gotten a lot of mail from you, both and Sid, too. He really boosted my morale. Your letters, I read over and over. Also got the pictures, and thanks. We have our hammocks and are camped along the beach in a palm grove. It is one of the few places on the island not ripped apart by shells. The flies here run you insane. In the middle of every word, I stopped to brush them off. Today, I bathed, shaved, and put on clean clothes for the first time in 32

• 2:53:29Jocko Willink?

  days. It will take much scrubbing to remove the dirt. My beard was about one inch and red. I shaved it off with only minor lacerations. Give thanks to God for protecting me. I'll write whenever I can. Your devoted, Gene." Excuse dirty envelope, but I've carried it 32 days just to write this letter. I'm okay.

• 2:53:59Speaker 01

  Do you still have that letter? I do. I actually do. And in fact, in that Fox Nation piece that I told you guys about that just dropped, they they show that letter. And I mean, just, yeah, to see that, to read it, to, to, and to, you know, have an understanding like I have of of his experience and to, I mean, there's just a lot of things that come to my mind when you, when you read that, you know, and it's, you talk about, like, he describes the flies and all that, and it, just the depravity, the filth, the garbage dump-like conditions. I mean, he harped on those things because,

• 2:54:39Speaker 01

  and there's tons of it on Okinawa that we, we could talk about, you know, he felt like

• 2:54:48Speaker 01

  books that had been written, or movies, certainly the movies, you know, my father didn't have a lot of respect for movies of the day, that they glossed over that stuff. And he said, you know, the experience of an infantryman is filth, deprivation, and fear. And of course, tension, shock, fatigue, you know, but really, and it gets into it heavy on on Okinawa, down near Half Moon Hill, just one, just these like World War I trench-like conditions. He talked, he talks about how the stuff didn't get published, which, I mean, God love with the old breed, I'm not judging that, but I'm grateful I had the opportunity to bring some of this stuff

• 2:55:32Speaker 01

  to life. He talks about, you know, and I've already quoted, you know, they had dug in around Half Moon Hill, which is the stalemate before Shuri. And of course, to contextualize it geographically, everybody's heard of Sugarloaf Hill. Well, the Shuri line on Okinawa, and Dave, you probably know this better than I do, you've got the Western Terminus is Sugarloaf Hill. That was a 6th Marine Division battle that everybody's heard of.

• 2:56:02Speaker 01

  Half Moon is just, I believe, just to the east of that. And the first division was at Half Moon, or the 5th Marines were. And if I'm getting a unit name or number wrong, then I'm sure somebody will sort that out. But I'm pretty sure, but I know that Sugarloaf and Half Moon were the western anchors of the Shuri line on Okinawa. But the conditions for them around Half Moon were just, he said, it was like being flung into hell's on cesspool. And the way he writes and describes, you know, that like he and Snafu, or it may have been George Sorette, establish a gun position. And he said, like I would always do, after digging in, getting the guns sighted, I'd

• 2:56:47Speaker 01

  kind of look, just look around and assess the terrain to just be familiar with what was around. For various reasons, I mean, as a mortarman, as any kind of infantryman, you need to know that, you need to know your surroundings, obviously, but also, he said it was really important to know where everything was before it got dark, because when it got dark and the star shells came up, the Japanese infiltrators would freeze and try to hunker down in the midst of that eerie greenish light. And if you saw something out of place, you needed to be aware of that. Because when that star shell flickered out, then they would move again. So, a lot of things like that.

• 2:57:27Speaker 01

  But, he talked about how when they would bring up new replacements, which on Okinawa was just a daily thing. And the guys would come, the K Company guys would come into this, and they would bring them in and hear, you know, imagine the foulest garbage dump you could imagine, except it's not garbage, it's dead bodies, and human waste, and all of these disgusting things. And he said, the look of utter despair on these guys' faces, because these are fresh from the States replacements. And he said, it was, we had the same look, but we had been through Pellicle. We at least were acclimated. He said, these poor guys would just, he said, I will never, and I don't think this, I believe it's in bold, because I don't think it made it in with

• 2:58:12Speaker 01

  the old breed. He said, to see these fresh faced replacements, look around with this utterly utter look of despair, like they had, could not imagine anything being that disgusting. Stacks of bodies that hadn't been buried, you know, certainly the Japanese bodies hadn't been buried, because they never were. To see dead Marines that hadn't been withdrawn from the, from the lines was shocking to another Marine, because Marines always took their dead. When they were stale mated in front of Shuri, it got so bad, there was so much counter battery fire, they didn't have a chance to get the dead Marines out.

• 2:58:50Speaker 01

  So you had lines of rotting Marine corpses, and it's horrible to even contemplate. But my dad talks about, talked about how, you know, these new guys would see this and just have this, just look of amazed, disgusted despair, like they couldn't even imagine anything would be that bad, you know. You know, the inhumanity of it all is, is just, but to him, I mean, to somebody maybe who wants to read a cool war book, and they think what the old breed is going to be that, or coming into mind, they may think it's going to be that, and then they, they may be disgusted by that, well, you know, how, these, these

• 2:59:31Speaker 01

  were just awful things. Well, you gotta get in my dad's head, because he felt like that's the kind of thing people need to know. You know, he, the home front wanted to hear about dashing bravado and tales of daring due, and there was certainly that, but he said, the daily existence was fear and filth and constant tension and shock. And, you know,

• 2:59:59Speaker 01

  He described, and I think some of this was in his book, but some of it got edited out and I was able to use it contextually. You know, in the rain and mist, he'd look out over this field and he sees all these foxholes with those camo-covered ponchos and the cloth-covered helmets. And all his buddies are just all hunkered down. And every time a shell, outgoing or incoming, would go over, he said it was just like on cue and the rain and the mist and the horrible stench, you'd just see a head go down. Everybody would hunker down. And then they'd come back up when the shell got passed. And another would come over and you'd see all those heads just... And he said it was just, you just seeing these, his buddies, like, it was this feeling of forewarned despair, you know, hopelessness.

• 3:00:44Speaker 01

  Of just, are we ever going to get through this? Because, you know, he was on the front lines of Okinawa 82 days, I think.

• 3:00:53Speaker 01

  And it's interesting if you compare and contrast Pelluloo and Okinawa, because Pelluloo was more compressed. You know, he was on the front lines 30 or 32 days. It was shorter, but it was constant, all the bad stuff, and just this constant, unrelenting pace. Okinawa, they did at least get off the front lines a time or two, but it was more prolonged.

• 3:01:19Speaker 01

  And of course, the rain and the mud on Okinawa was certainly not present on Pelluloo.

• 3:01:26Speaker 01

  But I don't think any of it was an easy experience for a young man to go through.

• 3:01:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, the section here that you pull, quote from your dad, and it says, "I look back with nostalgia and cherish their comradeship, but time has not deceived me about the fighting on Pelluloo. The field of glory and other fine phrases used in past wars do not apply to Pelluloo, because it was waste, shock, agony, and terror from beginning to end."

• 3:02:03Jocko Willink?

  Pelluloo was the hardest of them all.

• 3:02:20Jocko Willink?

  Of course, it ain't over. You get done with Palau and you go right back into training. They go back to Pavuvu, they start training and you know, you document some of that. I mean, you document a lot of that and what they're doing, what they're feeling.

• 3:02:39Jocko Willink?

  And then it's, we're getting ready for Okinawa.

• 3:02:44Jocko Willink?

  You say here, "Their officers briefed on what to expect in Okinawa, and they were not encouraged by the news that casualties on the beach during the landing were expected to be 80 to 85%."

• 3:03:01Jocko Willink?

  That's just crazy. I mean, you start taking 80 to 85% casualties.

• 3:03:11Jocko Willink?

  That's, it's, it's, it's hard to even consider from a leadership position. Like that's an intelligent thing to tell the troops. Like, I'm, I'm like, all about transparency.

• 3:03:27Jocko Willink?

  That's a rough one, though. 80 to 85% casualties is what we're predicting.

• 3:03:32Speaker 01

  Well, you know, they're, they're extrapolating that based on accrued experience through the, the Pacific war to that point. Happily, it turned out as he described his greatest, his happiest surprise of the war, and he was ninth wave ashore to Okinawa. But when, of course, so ninth wave ashore not being in an assault wave that did not come out of an LVT or not an LST in the amphibious tractors like the first three assault waves, they came down the cargo net from a troop ship. And so they get in the Higgins boat off the cargo net, then go out to a rendezvous point to meet the incoming or yeah, the, the amphibious tractors that were coming back

• 3:04:13Speaker 01

  from the beach. They, they ended up being ninth wave ashore at Okinawa. And he talks about how the Amtrak driver is like the landing zone opposed. It was just this moment of joy.

• 3:04:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:04:25Speaker 01

  You know, um, and nobody believed it, but happily, you know, that was the case at Okinawa because yes, I mean, they were predicting horrendous casualties on the beach.

• 3:04:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You've got in the book, a quote from your dad. As the boat and the Amtrak came together, the coxswain slowed his engine and the marine yelled, the landing is unopposed. We looked at him in amazement as we picked up our gear and climbed on the Higgins boat back to the Amtrak. We couldn't believe it. Yeah. That's about as good as you could possibly hope for. And then that kind of continued. Like there's a time where there's, you know, a little bit of a lull in the combat. And you say here, April's lack of action had begun to lull even the hardened veterans into a false sense of security, but things were about to change. Fast forward a little bit.

• 3:05:18Jocko Willink?

  This is for Dave Berke. We looked up just as eight Japanese zero fighters and about as many marine Corsairs broke their respective formations and tangled in a swirling dogfight. I've been told many times about dogfights by the Guadalcanal veterans, but as we had aerial superiority at Peleliu, I'd never seen any. We watched in awe as the planes climbed, turned and dove at each other with thudding gunfire and winding, straining engines. This lasted probably about 15 minutes. The marine pilots shot down all eight zeros, one right after the other. Each time a zero went down, we Marines cheered. There you go, Dave. That's for you.

• 3:05:58Speaker 01

  That right there. Okay. Now I told you guys, my dad was really good at connecting. He knew my love of airplane. He told me that story more than once. And it's one of my favorite stories.

• 3:06:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:13Speaker 01

  Cause it just remember like I, when I had that, had picked up my brother's model of the Corsair and you know, yeah, I remember one day we were on Okinawa, we saw a dogfight between eight JAP zeros and. And some marine corsairs and you know.

• 3:06:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I tell you what, Leif Babin and I, towards the end of deployment, we're, I think you might have left. You might have gone home. We're sitting on the roof of Camp Ramadi, Camp Markley, but now been renamed Camp Markley. We're sitting up overlooking the city and there's a crazy gunfight going on and there's tracers. And we're sitting up there watching it and I don't know what got called in, but a fast mover came in. And I don't know if he just dropped flares, show of force. I couldn't really tell. I think, I think that's all it was. Would that make sense? An F-18 coming down, dropping flare show of force?

• 3:07:05Speaker 01

  Certainly.

• 3:07:06Jocko Willink?

  But, uh, we were, Slav Babin and I are sitting up there watching this whole thing go down. And that's probably the closest I've ever had to that. But you know, we're both like, hell yeah, let's go. Awesome. But yeah, I imagine seeing eight Japanese zeros shot down, especially when you know what those zeros are there to do to your ass.

• 3:07:25Speaker 01

  Well, and the funny thing, which I had never heard this part from him, extracting it from the unpublished material. Right before that happened, there was an Okinawan family with a couple of little kids and, and it was in that moment, it was a bit of a quiet. They were on a patrol. So it was kind of a quiet area.

• 3:07:45Speaker 01

  And my dad writes about how the little, like the Marines loved to interact with the little kids. They give them rations and. So these cute little children, like he was talking to them. They were teaching him to count to 10 in Japanese. And then he was teaching them to count to 10 in English.

• 3:08:01Speaker 01

  And then that had, they hear the thudding gunfire and the roaring engines. They look up, oh, there's this dogfight. And my dad talks, he writes about how, I'm so happy I was able to bring this to light. He started, every time a zero went down, he started counting in Japanese for the Okinawans. And here you see that things weren't always as black and white because he said, apparently based on their reaction, they weren't real happy about the Japanese zeros being shot down.

• 3:08:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. He pointed out, it wasn't quite as obvious that they were on board with the Americans being there. Um, fast forward a little bit, the entire first marine division was to relieve the 27th infantry division. And this from your dad. At least this meant our division would fight as a unit and not as a battalion put into the army line here or there. End quote. And then you, the first marine division marched in to relieve the beleaguered 27th on the right or west of the American lines, just north of the Machido airfield around May 1. The stay of execution was over. It drew us into the abyss.

• 3:09:10Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward, upon entering the frightful abyss, our feelings of dread were shared throughout the division. That's from your dad. It was a jolting shock for my father to dive back into that maelstrom. But the feeling of being totally overwhelmed as he had been at first at Pellul six months earlier was now gone. Terrified though he was, my father knew because of his experience that he could control his fear.

• 3:09:36Jocko Willink?

  And then from your dad, quote, I reacted differently to it than any shelling I had endured on Pellul. I found that I could immediately identify almost every type of Japanese shell by their whining and roaring as they came in and by the sound of their explosions when they struck the deck. One of the new men digging in near me began asking me the same kinds of questions about the shelling that I had asked Snafu on the first day at Pellul. My answers seemed to help him. It was bad enough for the veterans, but the new men seemed to be even more stunned by it all.

• 3:10:13Jocko Willink?

  Incredible accounts here that you put out. Um, fast forward a little bit.

• 3:10:20Jocko Willink?

  I saw, this is after some serious fighting that you you detail in the book, both from your perspective, from hearing your dad talk about it, and then from quotes from your dad, but then he gets into this. I saw two somber men emerge from the aid station, bring out a stretcher with a poncho covered form, and quietly lay it on the deck to our left. Some mother's son would never go home. Jim Dandridge went over and lifted the poncho covering the face of the dead marine. And I saw him wince. He came back and told us who the dead marine was. We had all known him and liked him.

• 3:10:55Jocko Willink?

  There was a concealed light in the aid station tent, so the care of the wounded went on day and night. Before darkness, other stretchers were placed alongside the first, and before we left several days later, there were two or three rows that had grown tragically in length. Many had been good friends and had already survived a lot of combat. I knew we had to defeat the Japanese and the Nazis. We had to fight, although none of us liked it. I was fiercely proud of my outfit, but I could never accept the death of comrades as anything but tragic, abominable waste.

• 3:11:37Speaker 01

  If I could interject something right there that, that actually I had to go back and trim down and edit out.

• 3:11:45Speaker 01

  Every time they would bring another casualty out and lay them there in that line, you know, my, my father wrote about how Jim Dandridge, every time would go over and identify who it was and come back and tell them who it was. And he said, I understood why Jim was doing that. You know, because we all knew these guys, I mean, or had heard the name or something, you know, and it was always this feeling of just, you know, desensitize regret, if I can coin that phrase. But he said it, it almost got to where we just wanted Jim to shut up. Like, we get it, just stop, you know, he didn't say it that way, but reading what he wrote that was edited out of his book that, you know, and I had to trim, because like I said, I had a lot I had to

• 3:12:31Speaker 01

  cut back out, but, but still retain the essence of it. But yeah, that went on like most of that day and, and by the end of it, they were just wishing that he would just shut up, you know, because it was just one more buddy, you know.

• 3:12:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a, when you think about the psychological progression that you're making, and you get to a point where you don't even want to know the names of the guys that died, like that's a, that's just a whole nother level of

• 3:13:07Jocko Willink?

  psychological torture, really.

• 3:13:10Speaker 01

  And that, that, that breaches into that area that I can't even try to speak to, you know.

• 3:13:21Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward on May 9th against Awacha. This was the case and K Company suffered heavy losses. The battle in Okinawa became a bloodbath as the Americans fought their way south.

• 3:13:36Jocko Willink?

  After, and this is from your dad, after the costly attack of May 9th on Awacha, 35 moved off the line. Our battalion was assigned to protect the rear of the 7th Marines during its attack on Dakashi Ridge.

• 3:13:47Speaker 01

  Dakashi.

• 3:13:48Jocko Willink?

  Dakashi Ridge.

• 3:13:52Jocko Willink?

  You mentioned the mud. Mud contributed greatly to our fatigue and nothing caused us more irritation than exasperation. That's from your dad. And then you say, my, my father once told me the story of Snafu slipping in the mud one especially wet day. He was carrying the 45 pound base plate of the 60 millimeter mortar. Although it didn't fall into the mud where he had slipped, he was so exhausted and enraged, he shouted, goddamn, and he, as he threw the base plate down into the muck as hard as he could. It landed with a splat and of course, became completely covered in mud. Snafu then had to pull it up and clean it thoroughly. The moral of the story as my father related to me was to practice self-control and even under trying circumstances, never lose your temper.

• 3:14:35Speaker 01

  And you know, I mean, look, that, that was one of those father-son moments because I was a kid, I got mad about something and lost my temper and shown, shown, I don't remember how old I was, you know, eight or nine, something like that. And he told me that story.

• 3:14:53Speaker 01

  And I wish I could say that in that moment, right then and there, I learned it and practiced it perfectly from then on, but no, I can't say that. But I very clearly remember him saying, and he told me that and said, you've got to control your temper.

• 3:15:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. And there's so many of those good points that your dad brought up to you as a son in the book. It's, it's amazing. And you know, the, I talked about the flies and how they, they, they needed to do a better job with the flies and the CGI during the movie of the Pacific, because it certainly sounds like the way your dad describes them, they were way, way, way, way worse than they make them in the movie. But the mud seems like they do a pretty damn good job with the mud. It looks freaking miserable. Every step that they take is a gut check.

• 3:15:43Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward, this is your dad. Darkness soon settled on us and we were shelled off and on during the night. Our own artillery kept up heavy barrages on the Japanese positions in the Wana draw and on Wana Ridge to our left where the 7th Marines was having a terrible fight, end quote. And then you say, at this point, around May 19th or 20th, Wana Ridge was to their left and Wana draw was in front. Both areas were receiving massive amount of American mortar artillery, naval gunfire, and aerial bombardment. At least 30 tanks, four equipped with flamethrowers blasted and burned the draw. These barrages went on for hours and there was plenty of Japanese return fire. My father said to me more than once that they had seen plenty of heavy stuff at Pelluloo, but it was nothing compared

• 3:16:27Jocko Willink?

  to what they saw at Okinawa. He said he would get headaches that lasted for days. And this is when I was talking about the TBI, right? And this is from your dad, quote, "A headache was certainly of no consequence with all the suffering and dying going on all around us, but it showed the sheer magnitude of the noise and countless heavy explosions." All of these, all of this massive, heavy weapon support was to augment our infantry on Okinawa and the sheer volume of it, for hours on end, day after day, tended to fray our overtax nerves.

• 3:17:03Jocko Willink?

  Imagine you're in Okinawa and there's people dying and having their legs blown off and being dismembered, but your headache is so freaking bad that you still note it. I mean, that, he says, look, it's no consequence compared to all this other stuff, but that's got to be a pretty significant headache and that has got to be some traumatic brain injury, for sure. Concussive. No doubt about it. Like, we fire something called a Carl Gustaf rocket in the SEAL teams. And prior to that, we used something called an AT4. When I was a young SEAL, you know, I'd be a range, range safety officer. And we'd go out with

• 3:17:43Jocko Willink?

  guys training them and you'd shoot, I don't know, maybe have a platoon of 16 guys, everyone would shoot two AT4s each. So what's that, 30? And I'd probably do half of them. So maybe I'd do 16 AT4 rounds.

• 3:18:00Jocko Willink?

  And by that, by the end of the day, I got a little bit of a headache, you know? Never thought much of it, but that's just 1684s. This is nothing compared to this. And so the amount of, what do you say, fray and taxi going to your nerves? I has to be way worse than what your dad's describing even.

• 3:18:21Speaker 01

  I can't believe that, and his hearing, he had good hearing. His hearing was not damaged.

• 3:18:27Jocko Willink?

  Incredible.

• 3:18:28Speaker 01

  You know, and I don't know how that was the case after enduring that for such a prolonged period.

• 3:18:35Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I had to just highlight this is a quote from your dad. I never knew marine who didn't feel the same admiration I did for the bravery and efficiency of the Navy corpsman who served aloud alongside us. So shout out to all of our Navy corpsmen that go out there with the Marines.

• 3:18:49Speaker 01

  Oh, he loved the corps.

• 3:18:50Jocko Willink?

  That's a special, a special connection between the Marines and their, and their medics. And he talks about a bunch of that and then you give it, you go over it as well. And this is something we're starting to get into half moon hill. This is something that you are, you were talking about half moon hill here. Here's a quote from your dad, off to a right and bright front. There were at least 10 or 12 knocked out Sherman tanks and Amtraks. Most had apparently been hit by devastating Japanese artillery fire, particularly high velocity 47 millimeter tank guns, end quote. And then you add in Japanese dead were everywhere and so was every imaginable item of infantry equipment, all discarded in the fury of combat. And then from your dad, the longer we stayed in that terrible place and we stayed there

• 3:19:31Jocko Willink?

  over a week in almost incessant cold rain, our environment congealed more and more into a ghastly nightmare of mud, murderous shelling, casualties, rotting bodies and maggots. The place was enough to drive a strong man insane and some did become emotionally shattered because of it. I never saw more pathetic wounded and killed than we lost each day here.

• 3:19:59Jocko Willink?

  And then you add in, "My father found the only way he could mentally deal with this horrific environment was to look up at the gray overcast sky and watch the low clouds slide over." And then he said, "My escapes from reality into cloud watching were never for long. Shelling, orders to fire, orders to go up to the ridge through the shelling and OP and observe casualties, ammo carrying, parties, it went on and on day and night and I was, until I was dazed with fear and fatigue." And then he says, "When people want to hear war stories, they are revolted by accounts of the true reality of infantry life. They want to hear stirring tales of dash and excitement,

• 3:20:44Jocko Willink?

  not the filth, shock, blood, and maggots. Possibly if they knew more of such things,

• 3:20:52Jocko Willink?

  war would end."

• 3:20:55Speaker 01

  And that really captures the essence of how he felt about all of it.

• 3:21:03Speaker 01

  And that, I, you know, I think I say it in there at some point, he just had so little time for war movies, you know, because they, especially the ones of the 1950s, you know, they had that, I don't know, that jingoistic feel to them, I guess, which you would expect at that time, but he felt that they glossed over what really was at the heart of the matter, which was that.

• 3:21:34Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, it's funny when people, and there were people who said to him that in later years, you know, that, and this speaks to his sense of humor, that told, young Marines who told him, "You inspired me to go into the Marines." And he said, "I would have thought my book would have inspired you to not go in the Marines." And saying that with love and devotion is of course, he had nothing but true devotion for the Marine Corps.

• 3:22:02Jocko Willink?

  Well, I've, I've joked many times that there's these movies, Platoon.

• 3:22:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:22:07Jocko Willink?

  Full Metal Jacket, Apocalypse Now.

• 3:22:11Jocko Willink?

  Am I missing any? Those, those are big three for me. All anti-war movies. That 100% made me join the military. No doubt about it. And you know, for me, reading, reading, uh, With the Old Breed Now is a much, much different book than when I read it 30 years ago for the first time. I selectively, uh, decided what parts I related to and what parts, you know, wouldn't really apply to me. So I think that's just, uh, it's kind of like what Dave was saying. You know, Dave reading that book when he was at a first lieutenant

• 3:22:55Jocko Willink?

  was a lot. And I guarantee reading it after we got home from Ramadi, guarantee it's a definitely it's totally different book. Totally different book. Um, yeah.

• 3:23:09Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit as the firing, this is from you, as the firing subsided, the muddy Marines were feeling pleased that they had eliminated the threat of a later counterattack or infiltration that Jap, the, of these Japanese soldiers. But as the smoke from their weapons dissipated, Shadow came along the line yelling and cursing each man because they had not ceased firing when he ordered. Quote from your dad. As he passed, I could see each man mumbling to his foxhole mate. And we could well imagine what they were saying about Shadow's tantrum. This is their, their officer at the time. This unpopular officer, this is you talking, this is this unpopular officer got to the machine gun position and quickly silenced Kathy's exuberance. Kathy's is one of the guys. Again, read the book and you'll know these characters. He then cursed my father for firing an M1 when

• 3:23:53Jocko Willink?

  he was supposed to be observing. My father fought the urge to club Shadow with the rifle.

• 3:23:59Jocko Willink?

  And your dad says insulting or striking an officer carried a severe penalty and effective deterrent to my acting on impulse. Uh, you say he may have weighed the consequences of hitting his superior officer and thought better of it, but Shadow's pathetic lack of self-control caused my father to rashly tell him that they were sent there to kill Japs. And what difference did it make? What weapon he used in the process? He lacked any semblance of respect for a leader who would lose his temper and yell or berate his men, men who had to trust his leadership and follow his orders.

• 3:24:34Jocko Willink?

  Growing up, I encountered teachers, coaches, or bosses who would act in a similar manner. My father always brought up this example to show how a good leader would not act. So, once again, the stereotypical military officer yelling and screaming, "Hey, you might occasionally, you might be able to get your guys to do what you want to do in that moment, but they're not gonna actually, truly follow you ever." Yeah.

• 3:25:07Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit, a section here from your dad. "I lost a close friend around this time. While dug in on half-moon, a Japanese 75mm shell exploded near his foxhole. As the stretcher team brought him by on the way to the rear, several of us went over to wish him good luck. He was tall, but lying on that stretcher, he was a muddy limp form covered with several bloody battle dressings. One leg was completely severed at the ankle. The stump of the lower leg was also covered in bloody bandages. A mud-caked boondocker with the mangled remains of his ankle was resting on the stretcher at a crazy angle beside his uninjured foot.

• 3:25:45Jocko Willink?

  "You think I'll lose my leg, sledgehammer?" he asked in a low, dazed voice. I swallowed hard and managed to tell him he would surely recover before long and be back in those sweet-smelling spruce forests that he was so fond of back home in the Pacific Northwest. The morphine injected by the corpsman was having its merciful effects in easing his pain. But as we watched the stretcher team struggle through the deep mud toward the rear, he died before they even got out of sight through the rain and the mist. His death was a great loss to us all. The memory of our last meeting on that awful battlefield has been one of the most difficult death scenes I have not been able to forget." End quote. I heard my father tell this story in a recorded interview.

• 3:26:25Jocko Willink?

  To this day, it is hard for me to listen to it because right about the part where the man asked him if he would lose his leg, my father's voice broke, and it was only with great difficulty he was able to finish describing how his friend died, right there, in the rain and the mist.

• 3:26:49Jocko Willink?

  Again, in my mind, you know, you're watching your dad recall this story decades later. And still emotional about it.

• 3:27:03Speaker 01

  That right there, I have actually told that story.

• 3:27:08Speaker 01

  In conversations at symposia or, you know, World War II discussions, you know, which I love doing that kind of thing. But this goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Sometimes something just hits you, you know? And in fact, as I was speaking to a Society for Military History group in Mobile, just back in March. And I think it was that story or a similar one. It just hit me in the moment and I became very emotional and it really pissed me off at myself, you know, that I did. But, and like right now, we can talk about it and I'm good to go, you know? But to hear, it's a 1994 interview. I think it's on YouTube. No, it's not. It's just audio. It's not visual.

• 3:27:53Speaker 01

  But it is hard to hear my dad talk about that, you know, because again, he was a guy who just felt that he had that sensitivity for his buddies, man. I mean, and I it was just hard for him to relive that moment. And, and like I said, in some of these, some of these instances where I've been out talking about this stuff, something will just hit me a certain way and you know, it'll be hard to get through and it always frustrates me with myself when I do get emotional about it. But I guess again, it goes back to just knowing and just being so

• 3:28:33Speaker 01

  organically integrated with all of this, you know, just hearing it from my dad as I was a kid growing up. And I guess that had to be there for me to do that book, you know?

• 3:28:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, as far as I'm concerned, that's totally normal. Like, of course, you know, of course, your dad's gonna get emotional 50 years later. You know, it's one of his buddies that he lost. And you, knowing your dad and your dad being your hero, of course, and knowing how much it hurt him, it's like, of course, that's gonna hit you sometimes. That's totally normal.

• 3:29:14Jocko Willink?

  Another thing he talks about, again, it's not, you don't know everyone on the battlefield. And here he discusses that a little, but he says, quote, "Some new men got hit and were evacuated so quickly that they never really belonged to the company. One man came up with a group and reported to an NCO who took his name. Just as the replacement stepped toward a foxhole, a Japanese rifle shot rang out. We ducked instinctively. He spun around and fell to the deck, a flesh wound in the upper arm. The corpsman tended to the wound and tagged the man. He left his rifle and cartridge belt and went straight back to the aid station. He wasn't even in K Company for more than five minutes."

• 3:29:51Speaker 01

  And that gets back to the arithmetic of chance, as you mentioned earlier.

• 3:29:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:30:01Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit, although the Americans were finally making progress in the shiri area, the Japanese were still holding out in the center of their line. And your dad says, "The mud and natural defensive lay of the land were more than advantage, more of the advantage of the Japanese in the center of the line," end quote. "The 6th Marine Division was on the western flank, the Nahai area, and the Army Divisions on the eastern flank were making rapid progress in the south. This forced the Japanese to withdraw to the south so that their main defenses would not be encircled. This was the situation by May 30th, 1945.

• 3:30:35Jocko Willink?

  The battle so far had lasted 61 days. Japanese casualties were 62,458 killed, 465 captured. The Americans had lost 5,309 dead and 23,909 wounded."

• 3:30:58Jocko Willink?

  The magnitude of that, sixty-one days and on an island, you know? It's a fairly sized island, but sixty-two thousand dead people on an island?

• 3:31:11Jocko Willink?

  Enemy alone? Right.

• 3:31:21Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. You're talking about a situation as Twilight began to cloak the rock strewn ridge. They saw a small group of Marines gathered around a casualty. My father ran up to them. He saw it was Joe Lambert, the big, good-natured cigar chewing demolitions expert with whom he had been friends since Pellul. My father knelt down beside him, immediately recognizing that Lambert was hit badly and was going to die.

• 3:31:47Jocko Willink?

  From your dad, no one had been able to locate a stretcher within the company, having a number of casualties moving up on the ridge so rapidly, all the stretchers were in use. End quote. Lambert had an unlit cigar clenched between his teeth as he lay there wincing in pain. My father lamented that he couldn't light it for him because the smoking lamp was out. He did his best to comfort Lambert, joking with him about flirting with the nurses on the hospital ship, being able to drink a beer. But it was obvious the man was mortally wounded.

• 3:32:16Jocko Willink?

  Your dad says the jokes made to a buddy with a million dollar wound were much more lighthearted. End quote. As Lambert was carried off down the slope of the ridge on a poncho, my father reflected on the big, beautiful pine trees silhouetted against the darkening sky. The wind blew their scent into his face and the contrast between it and the stinking quagmire struck him. He was thankful that Lambert at least had that for his last moments on earth. One day in two thousand and three, or around that time, I don't remember exactly, I got a phone call from a man who said he was Lambert's son. He asked if I was related to the Eugene Sledge who wrote with the old breed. I told him I was his son.

• 3:32:58Jocko Willink?

  The gentleman who described himself as a fifty-eight-year-old retired coal miner from West Virginia, went on to relate how he had never met his dad because his dad had been killed on Okinawa toward the end of the war. His dad had had one last liberty, it seems, and had met his mother to spend time with her before he had gone back out to the Pacific and rejoined K Company before they invaded Okinawa. Lambert was then tragically killed and he never not got to know that he has a son who was born nine months after that liberty in 1945. Lambert's son was very emotional on the phone and he told me how those words my father wrote about being with Lambert when he died were the closest he had ever come to knowing his dad.

• 3:33:40Jocko Willink?

  He had always gotten some comfort from knowledge, from the knowledge that when his dad died, he was in a nice place with the setting sun, in a gentle breeze, and the fresh scent of pine trees, and surrounded by his buddies.

• 3:34:06Jocko Willink?

  Receiving that phone call and talking to him, how was that connecting you to this whole?

• 3:34:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was...

• 3:34:18Speaker 01

  I'll never forget that.

• 3:34:23Speaker 01

  And that's one of those, I've told that story and sometimes I can't get through it.

• 3:34:30Speaker 01

  You know, and, but that was, I mean, oh man, that was powerful. And then actually, and I did not put this in my book, but about a week later, his son, Lambert's grandson, called me.

• 3:34:49Speaker 01

  And this was a young man, early twenties, and we talked, and I mentioned talking to his dad. And he said, I will never forget this, and he said, "Well, my dad, my father and I don't speak." And I said, "Listen, kid, let me tell you something."

• 3:35:08Speaker 01

  I said, "I don't know what's going on between you and your dad, that's none of my business, you know, not trying to step over a line." But I said, "I can tell you from personal experience, you only have one father.

• 3:35:23Speaker 01

  And when he's gone,

• 3:35:27Speaker 01

  that's it."

• 3:35:40Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit, um. The word came down that the 5th Marines would be relieved on June 4th by the 1st Marines. The 5th Marines went into reserve. Their main task began, became aggressive patrolling and mopping up. Although this meant that the 5th Marines would be in a better situation than previously, even mopping up

• 3:36:02Jocko Willink?

  could be hazardous, as we discussed earlier. The Japanese bullets don't care what your mission was. Like you said, there is no mopping up bullet.

• 3:36:14Jocko Willink?

  Um, fast forward, you say, "I once asked my father if he'd ever been decorated for bravery. He said that he had not. I asked him if he had never, if he had ever done anything that perhaps would have justified such a medal."

• 3:36:30Jocko Willink?

  By the way, he wrote an entire book that each page justifies a medal.

• 3:36:36Jocko Willink?

  I asked him if he'd ever done anything that would perhaps have justified such a medal. He then told me the story of how, on Okinawa, toward the end of the battle, he and some other Marines had gone up into a rocky area and bring down a casualty.

• 3:36:50Jocko Willink?

  "The Marine had been wounded by a Japanese sniper in both feet and was lying helplessly, helpless on a rocky ledge. My father explained how the casualty was in the direct line of sight of the sniper who was waiting on the man to be rescued. The four stretcher bearers, my father being one of them, huddled just underneath the ledge where the wounded man lay. As the rescuers looked at each other with searching glances, my father realized that their comrade was depending on them to help. Even though he knew he would be exposed to the fire of the sniper, my father made the only decision he could make. "I just figured to hell with it," he told me. I jumped up on the ledge beside him, grabbed him under my, under the shoulder, and helped lower him down to the other guys. Somebody had to do it."

• 3:37:34Jocko Willink?

  The man's name was Leonardo Vargo, and they carried him down Konishi Ridge without further incident.

• 3:37:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:37:47Jocko Willink?

  That's like one story. Again, your dad wrote an entire book and every page has a

• 3:37:54Jocko Willink?

  clear acts of valor.

• 3:37:56Speaker 01

  Well, I, you know, here's the thing. I mean, that that's cool for you to say that. I would never say that.

• 3:38:04Speaker 01

  You know, um, I just, I try to always be careful to not elevate, you know, him over some other veteran. I mean,

• 3:38:17Speaker 01

  you know, I mean, to me, it's like I said, personally, yeah, he was a hero because he was my dad, you know, but

• 3:38:26Speaker 01

  I never went around saying that he was a hero. He certainly didn't think that. And he would have corrected me if he'd heard me say it. You know, but

• 3:38:39Speaker 01

  that's just the way I've always seen it.

• 3:38:46Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward all the way to a section that starts off with the word endgame. Uh, the first division's fight at Koenishi Ridge lasted from 11 June to 18 June and cost them 1,150 casualties. But it was the end of the organized Japanese resistance on Okinawa. The enemy made it hellishly difficult right up to the end. It was a difficult objective. And the night attacks had played a crucial role in getting the job done, meaning marine, um, night attacks.

• 3:39:17Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward as the, as the action on Okinawa was winding down, a marine 37 millimeter gun crew was attacked just before daylight. The gun position was not far from where my father was dug in a corpsman, a new kid who hadn't really seen any action, heard the call for help after the enemy grenades went off. My father grabbed his Tommy gun and went after the young corpsman in case he ran into trouble. Apparently two Japanese officers had charged into 37 millimeter position, throwing grenades and swinging their Samurai sabers. As my father described to me, as one of the Japanese officers swung a saber down at a marine, the marine parried it with his carbine. That saber was so sharp that it sliced the stock of the carbine all the way to the metal barrel. It also sliced off one of the Marines fingers. Well, another Marine shot that Jap

• 3:40:01Jocko Willink?

  and he fell over backwards down the slope they had just charged up. The other Japanese officer with him had already been killed and was lying on his back near the wheel of the 37. I'll never forget. There was this marine, there was a marine standing over him with his M1 rifle in both hands and he was just driving it up and down into the head of that corpse. It was just horrible. And this poor marine, he was just at the end of his rope. He just kept plunging that M1 up and down. I mean, it just made me sick. We gently grabbed him by the arms and tried to restrain him. We got the rifle away from him and got his buddy and got him out of there. I didn't say much. He concluded by saying, anybody who thinks there's glory in warfare, they should have seen that.

• 3:40:54Jocko Willink?

  Later in the day on June 21st, 1945, the High Command issued the word that the island was secure. My father took out, took out his pipe, lit it, and looked out over the blue sea with the sunlight dancing on the water. He had survived 82 days and nights on Okinawa. Although the Marines experienced immense relief at having survived the meat grinder of combat, yet again, there were still days of uncertainty. The long process of mental convalescence would begin at the tent in northern Okinawa. The photo of my father sitting on his shirt, sitting on his bunk shirtless, showing all, showing the strain of battle as he stares blankly into space with a thousand yard stares

• 3:41:34Jocko Willink?

  under weight from the stress of combat, that photo was taken one day at the tent camp. The photograph, the photo, the photographer is unknown. It was always my mother's favorite picture of him. The haunting look in his eyes, I think. They heard on August 8th, 1945, that the first atomic bomb had been dropped a couple of days earlier. They knew that if Japan itself would have to be invaded and they would be the ones to have to do it. And specifically your dad at this point, because you had to do three campaigns and he, for lack of a better way of saying that, he'd only done two. Right. And so he was going to be one of the guys going next into Japan. We had many conversations about his feelings on atomic bombs.

• 3:42:17Jocko Willink?

  I won't weigh the morality of that issue here, only his experience. He told me, as he told me, quote, "After what I had been through at that point, I knew there was no way I could survive another battle in Japanese home islands." We knew we would have to kill them all to win.

• 3:42:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:42:40Jocko Willink?

  And then he talks about, you know, going to China and of course, he wrote this book over here.

• 3:42:44Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:42:44Jocko Willink?

  China Marine.

• 3:42:47Jocko Willink?

  My father went to Nor- went to Northern China for occupation duty after Okinawa. He remembered his time fondly. And it was there that he began his own healing process after the war was over. He finally returned to Mobile in early 1946. He had made it out of the abyss of the war.

• 3:43:10Jocko Willink?

  It was very interesting to me to, to read these, this, uh, chapter 20, which is starts off with the words coming home.

• 3:43:20Jocko Willink?

  And you know,

• 3:43:26Jocko Willink?

  you say my fa- he says, or you say, "My father and I spoke often about what it was like for him to finally come home. When he walked through the front door of Georgia.

• 3:43:34Speaker 01

  Georgia Cottage.

• 3:43:36Jocko Willink?

  He told me that Captain, one of my family, one of the family dogs literally jumped straight into his arms, began joyfully licking his face. He was struck by how much his parents had aged. It was little wonder that the emotional strain of having both their sons in heavy combat, one in Europe and one in the Pacific had taken its toll. Gran and Pop both looked so old. You know, in the movie, they, they show some of the interaction between your dad and his brother.

• 3:44:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:44:03Jocko Willink?

  What, what was, can you give us a little more perspective on that? What did your dad say about that? I mean, they both had gone through very different experiences.

• 3:44:11Speaker 01

  Right. So my, my Uncle Edward was a graduate of the Citadel, commanded a tank platoon, 741st Tank Battalion. Landed at Vierville, um, in, to encapsulate it, three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star. Uh, I think he got his Silver Star on D-Day. Got his Bronze Star the first night of the bulge up on the, he was on the northern shoulder. Um, near Volersheid and.

• 3:44:45Speaker 01

  Which I actually begin the book by telling the story of seeing his medals in my grandmother's house. And that's kind of where my love of WWII history began to get sparked, you know, because it's cool to read the citations because his Bronze Star, so the first night of Battle of the Bulge, without delving too deep into that, obviously, things were on a knife edge because the Germans hit hard and fast and were just driving that wedge through that became the bulge. And up on the northern shoulder, the 741st Tank Battalion was supposed to link up with the 2nd Infantry Division. Communications were out, a lot

• 3:45:26Speaker 01

  of officers weren't sure what was going on. Everybody was on the back foot, so to speak. And my uncle led his tanks, the way the citation reads, led them through snowy fire swept roads, under enemy fire, was able to link up with the 2nd Infantry Division, where the element that they were supposed to hook up with, was able to acquaint that officer with the situation and establish control over the immediate area. And, I mean, to read that citation, it's as badass as it gets. And that was my Uncle Edward, you know,

• 3:46:02Speaker 01

  and he had three Purple Hearts. I, he passed away in the, back in the 1980s. I wish I had known him better. You know, I've got some cousins I'm close to. My father and my uncle, I think they would have had a very close relationship, but this is where you have to understand my grandmother. And, I mean, I have fond memories of my grandmother, but the reality of it was, and if my dad was sitting right here, he would be the first one to tell you, she could be Machiavellian in the way she manipulated people and the

• 3:46:46Speaker 01

  way she played people off against each other. I mean, it was a very palpable thing. And...

• 3:46:54Speaker 01

  You know, there were times when, I mean, I finally, it's in China Marine when my dad writes about the train coming into Mobile after his occupation duty in China. And this is where the HBO thing took a little artistic license because they showed him. And that's fine. I mean, beautifully shot and all that. I love the way they did it. But he came home from China by himself. Train rolls into Mobile, dark night, you know. My uncle and my Aunt Martha were there to pick him up. And my dad writes about they, you know, my uncle was so happy to see him. He was wearing his army greens, were splendid with all his battle

• 3:47:33Speaker 01

  stars and his ribbons of his, all his awards for valor. And, you know, they embraced warmly. He embraced my Aunt Martha. They were happy to see him. And, you know, my Uncle Edward said to him, you, you came through a Marine Rifle Company in the Pacific without a scratch. I mean, that's probably not a lot of guys could say that. But the sad part is my grandmother could, she could just really play people off against each other. And I, I don't, I think at times the relationship was not as good as it could have been. I wish I had known

• 3:48:17Speaker 01

  my uncle better. He, he was an incredibly brave man and incredibly smart man. I had, and my cousin Mary Louise, she and I have a very close relationship. And I had a Nazi building banner that he had torn off, you know, those building banners that the Nazis had. 741st Tank Battalion went through a town in Czechoslovakia and he tore it off the town hall. It may have been Pilsen, I'm not sure. But, and he threw it in his tank. And somehow it ended up at our house, you know, because my cousins at the time did not want it. And when my grandmother passed away, things got moved around and we ended up with it.

• 3:49:00Speaker 01

  And his tanker jacket as I relate in there. And so I had those things because I remember like that jacket, that cotton tanker jacket, you know, nothing special to look at, but I remember my brother and me looking at it and my brother saying, man, Uncle Edward wore that in the Battle of the Bulge, you know. Well, I mean, when you're a kid in the 1970s, man, the Battle of the Bulge, you know, everybody knew what that was. That was a cool thing. But my cousin wanted, she asked if she could have those things and I said, of course, that's your dad, you know, of course, I will give them to you. I mean, so she has them now. But I, I think of my, my uncle, I, you know, I'm so interested in the Sherman tank in

• 3:49:43Speaker 01

  all aspects of World War II history, but I wish I could have had some conversations with him. Because if there's anybody who saw, like I said, I mean, what he went through in Europe was about as heavy as anything you could go through and then here's your younger brother, here's my dad going through it in the Pacific and to be a mom and a dad, now I'm got my, my dad hat on here, both your sons are, you know, at the bitter end of it on opposite ends of the world. And to have them both come home, you know, um, what a, what a trial for, for, for parents,

• 3:50:24Speaker 01

  for a family, but, um, if I ever, people have asked me, do you think you'll do another book? And I say, well, as long as I'm working my day job, I won't. I've got to get retired from that first, but something that, I, I wish it was more written about my uncle because I would love to do something focused on him and also my dad and, you know, the Sledge brothers at war or something like that. I'm actually supposed to speak at the Citadel in November. And, um, I mentioned that when I spoke at the Society for Military History, one of their people was there and he came up, he goes, man, would you come do this at the Citadel? I teach your dad's book.

• 3:51:04Speaker 01

  And there was a Marine who I was having the conversation with that in front of our audience, you know, and he's, oh yeah, El Cid, man, a lot of Marines go through El Cid, you know. So I'm going in November and I'm really looking forward to that. But that gentleman I was talking to and he, he said, oh man, 741st Tank Battalion, I can, I can point you right to somebody who can help you research that. But I would love to, not to compare and contrast, but to, to do something, the Sledge brothers in World War II. I mean, because they both had such an extraordinary experience. I mean, it's such a powerful legacy. I mean, I'd almost, if I could pull up my uncle's citation, I've got a picture of it. I'd like to read it if I could.

• 3:51:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, this is my Uncle Edward. This is his Silver Star citation. First Lieutenant Edward S. Sledge, 0428583, Infantry 741st Tank Battalion, United States Army. For gallantry in action during the Allied assault on the coast near Vireville-sur-Mare, France, 6 June 1944, First Lieutenant Sledge, a platoon leader, landed with the initial assault wave under intense enemy machine gun mortar and artillery fire. In the absence of his company commander, he assumed command of the company. When his radio failed, there was no way to give commands from one tank to another. First Lieutenant Sledge, dismounting from his tank, went along the open beach to four other tanks, giving instructions to the operators. Reentering

• 3:52:34Speaker 01

  in his own tank, he proceeded down the beach until it was immobilized. While lying in a relatively safe position, First Lieutenant Sledge, seeing a wounded soldier about 25 yards away, crawled to him and dragged him back to cover where he was given first aid. The courage and determination of First Lieutenant Sledge, enacting with a complete disregard for his personal safety, in order to assist to the utmost of the assault, depicts a gallantry that is a credit to himself in the military service, inter-military service from Mobile, Alabama. That is my Uncle Edward's Silver Star. Outstanding. Here is his Bronze Star.

• 3:53:11Speaker 01

  This point, he's a captain. Captain Edward S. Sledge, the second, 741st Tank Battalion, United States Army, for heroic action on the 15th of December, 1944, in Belgium. On the evening of 15 December, 1944, in the vicinity of Wollerscheid, Germany, the tank company which Captain Sledge was commanding was called upon by the infantry for assistance as anti-tank defense after the pillbox area had been taken. Captain Sledge's company of tanks were to move to the area of the infantrymen from an assembly area one mile from their lines. Unfortunately, one of Captain Sledge's platoon leaders was not familiar with the situation that had developed.

• 3:53:54Speaker 01

  Fully cognizant of the fact that the situation was extremely critical, Captain Sledge fearlessly and without regard for his own personal safety, dismounted from his tank and on foot led his tanks through the dark fire-swept roads and fields in order to keep them clear of mines. He steadfastly refused to take cover when the tanks drew a constant rain of heavy enemy artillery fire. He did not rest or take cover until he had led his tanks to their objective and contacted the commanding officer of the infantry unit. The valor, devotion to duty and superior leadership displayed by Captain Sledge reflects great credit upon himself and is in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service. That is Eugene Sledge's older brother.

• 3:54:38Speaker 01

  So, yeah, that's a proud legacy.

• 3:54:42Jocko Willink?

  And when you said that he came home and, you know, your uncle Edward met him at the train and he said, "Well, you made it through the Pacific without a scratch and also without an award of any kind." And this is the United States Marine Corps. The United States Marine Corps... They, they, they do not uh give away awards.

• 3:55:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:55:12Jocko Willink?

  At all.

• 3:55:15Jocko Willink?

  Dave, uh, commentary on that?

• 3:55:17Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 3:55:18Jocko Willink?

  Like, um, to get through, to go to Palau and Okinawa and not get a Navy Achievement Medal? With a V on it is crazy, but you know, it's a different time.

• 3:55:34Jocko Willink?

  And that's a pretty interesting uh difference between all the services, you know, just the way that they give out awards. And also in time, you know, different times, different theaters, you know, different theaters of war. In certain theaters, well, some action is, is, is a good morning and a yellow sticky on the, on the, on the back of your, your folder. And some other theater at a different time, that same action, you're getting a, a high award for valor. So, uh, but what's nice about it is to have that documentation, you know?

• 3:56:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:56:09Jocko Willink?

  And I can tell you, I can guarantee you 100%. Those are two acts of valor that your uncle committed that they drew out of a hat with a, he did 20 of those things.

• 3:56:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:56:23Jocko Willink?

  If not 30 of those things, if not 40 of those things. And that's the way it is. The, the, the awards thing is very strange, very, very strange indeed, but pretty awesome to have that documentation. And pretty crazy to see pictures of your dad. Did your dad even get a Purple Heart? I know he didn't get, but like, you know, when you get blown, like nowadays, guy gets blown up and gets a concussion and knocked out. Like they're getting a Purple Heart in many cases.

• 3:56:49Speaker 01

  Well, you know, and, and he, I was able to bring to light what got edited, something that, you know, twice. A Japanese 150 millimeter dud landed in the mud and skidded along and landed right by him. All right, there was one case where.

• 3:57:06Speaker 01

  It was, um, it was, oh, the Japanese mortars just caused hell for him. I think it was a ninety, ninety millimeter. Well, more than one case, because it's in there in my book where one hit and literally knocked him into a hole or out of a hole or, you know, stunned him and, you know, I mean, it's really a miracle that he survived.

• 3:57:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:57:29Speaker 01

  And without a scratch. I mean, it's hard to imagine.

• 3:57:33Jocko Willink?

  It is indeed. Um, yeah, well, I was just curious because they don't really, they go, they show a little bit of interaction between your, your uncle and your dad in the, in the, in the movie. Um, you don't talk about it too much. He doesn't talk about it too much. And, and so I was just wondering if you had any amplifying. They were pretty big disparity in age too, right? Like seven or eight years or something like that?

• 3:57:55Speaker 01

  They weren't that, it wasn't that much.

• 3:57:56Jocko Willink?

  How much was it?

• 3:57:59Speaker 01

  Three or four years.

• 3:58:01Jocko Willink?

  Okay. I thought they were further apart than that. Yeah. Um, yeah, interesting. And I, you know, I would think that if there's anyone you could talk to, it'd be your combat, fellow combat veteran, but then your fellow combat veteran, that's also your brother. I figured they must have exchanged some pretty good stories over the years.

• 3:58:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, it's like I said, my, my memories, by the time I began to get older, we weren't going down to Mobile to visit my grandmother as much. So, and she's the, like Georgia cottage, the big house where I write about going in and looking at his medals and the interactions with my, my grandmother, you know, at an early age that she sold that house in nineteen seventy-five, seventy-six. And so I really, and it was when we would go there that I would see my uncle, because he didn't live far from there. Um, once she sold that house and downsized and moved to an apartment in her final years, I don't really have much memory of, of ever seeing him.

• 3:59:10Jocko Willink?

  Um, going back to the book a little bit here, fast forward. This is you talking about your dad. He said he spent a lot of time sitting around and staring at the wall. And you, you told the story about your, your, uh, your grandfather saying, Mary Frank, leave that boy alone.

• 3:59:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:59:28Jocko Willink?

  You know, you, you convey that story again that they show in the movie. Um, and he talks about it in China Marine, which is, you know, when he's going in and, you know, the, to, to sign up for courses. And, you know, she says, oh, did they teach you this? Did they teach you that? Did they, did the Marine Corps teach you anything? And of course he says, uh, and I just stared down at her and said in a voice as loud as thunder. This was different. This is what's interesting. In the movie, he whispers it. He says, I just stared down her and said in a voice as loud as thunder, lady, they taught me how to kill Japs. There was a killing war going on and I had to do some of the killing. And if that don't fit into an academic course, I'm sorry, some of that, some of us had to do it. And most of my buddies got killed or wounded.

• 4:00:12Jocko Willink?

  Well, the room went dead silent. You could have heard a pin drop. And she just looked shocked and mumbled something about being sorry. And I said, it's okay. You couldn't have known.

• 4:00:23Speaker 01

  That was always one of my favorite stories to of, of his, you know? Um, yeah, but it is, and I'm not being critical of the way they shot that scene in the Pacific, but it is. Joe Mazzola leans forward and says it really quiet, but no, I mean, it was, you know, did they teach you how to fix electrical things? No, they didn't teach you that. Did they teach you journalism? They know that it teaches, they didn't teach you accounting. No, they, did the Marine Corps teach you anything? Lady, they taught me how to kill Japs. You know, I mean, I, that's a, that's a pretty, pretty cool moment. Yeah. To have everybody just stop.

• 4:01:04Jocko Willink?

  He, you say he earned a bachelor's degree of science in business in 1949 when I went back to Mobile and worked in insurance office, as he told many times, he detested it. And he said, I never, I should have never listened to Mary Frank. That's his mom. He said, and he would usually end such a conversations with me by saying, big shot. And he, you talk about throughout the book, his nickname for you is big shot. That's right. Big shot, you have to do what you want to do. Follow your own path. Don't let someone else make that decision for you. End quote. And what a great piece of advice. And then you say he took his own advice. Married his mother, married your mother in 1952, got a degree in botany, in zoology, a PhD in zoology

• 4:01:48Jocko Willink?

  and biochemistry. And then, you know, as we mentioned, started teaching biology, became a full professor, which was his dream. Which was what he wanted to do.

• 4:02:03Jocko Willink?

  Despite his horrific experience as a combat veteran, I never felt as though I was living in a house with a disturbed individual. As I may have stated, as I have stated publicly many times, he was the all-American dad. He was, in my view, a paragon of self-control. He drank moderately, but never to excess. He swore frequently, but never needlessly. And he absolutely skewed the so-called four-letter words. Like any man, he appreciated beautiful women, but there was only one who mattered, my mother. He treated her with absolute respect and devotion and demanded the same of my brother and me. Not that that was a hard thing to do. He always called her Suge Chief and sometimes simply Mrs. Sledge.

• 4:02:47Jocko Willink?

  Um, and you go in here, you kind of explain growing up and you know, he's, you guys have the family time and back in those days, you know, we'd all sit around and watch the same TV program because there was only two channels. That's right. And so, you know, you guys would watch I Love Lucy, which everyone watched back in those days. And you talk about him laughing out loud and then. The year would have been 1970 or 1971 and the Vietnam War was in full swing. I won't attempt to recreate dialogue of such evenings, because I honestly don't remember, but I do have a vivid mental image of the grainy news footage flickering across our little black and white RCA television set. Marines and soldiers running and fighting through Southeast

• 4:03:28Jocko Willink?

  Asian jungles and ubiquitous Huey helicopters, their rotors thumping and the airstream flailing at the palm trees as they landed to take on torn and bloody young men for evacuation. My father Sledgehammer would sit there with Holly still in his lap, watching tensely, his jaw clenched in a grim expression on his face. Now, there was no laughing and guffawing like during I Love Lucy. He would just mutter "God damn" under his breath as the voices of Walter Cronkite and John Chancellor droned on solemnly over those flickering images of choppers, palm trees, and wounded young men. My mother and I talked about this not long

• 4:04:10Jocko Willink?

  before she passed away. She said, "He was so discouraged and profoundly disturbed at things like the Vietnam War. It made him feel as if what they did in World War II was for nothing. He thought that they had made the world better, that all the suffering and dying in places like Peleliu and Okinawa was so that we would never have to see these things again."

• 4:04:38Jocko Willink?

  And again, there's so much in this book. It's such a fantastic read, but I'm gonna close it out with this, this section towards the end.

• 4:04:50Jocko Willink?

  "Sledgehammer fought his battles against the Empire of Japan with courage and honor. When the war ended, he made his peace, came home, and got on with his life as best he could. Perhaps it could be said that his war never completely ended, not that it did for any of them, because I know he never forgot his buddies who didn't have, who didn't get to have a life after the war. Even though he always grieved for them, that grief gave him an enhanced appreciation of his own life. I heard him say once, quote, "The experience was so incredibly intense that after it was all over with, life was never the same." Because the sunrise is always...

• 4:05:37Jocko Willink?

  More beautiful to me now than it ever was before I started into Pellaloo on that Amtrak.

• 4:05:49Jocko Willink?

  End quote.

• 4:05:56Jocko Willink?

  But his last battle would be one that he would not win.

• 4:06:00Jocko Willink?

  He was diagnosed with stomach cancer in October of 2000. The prognosis was not good. Watching my father endure his illness helped me understand the true meaning of inner courage and fortitude, as if reading of his war experiences were not enough. I sat with him many days and nights, and I honestly never heard him complain about the pain he was in. I came to understand the difference between being a tough guy and being a strong man. I never saw my father as a tough guy in the proverbial sense. He exuded gentlemanly forbearance and composure.

• 4:06:38Jocko Willink?

  But he was one hell of a strong man. That was Sledgehammer.

• 4:07:01Jocko Willink?

  That was Sledgehammer.

• 4:07:06Jocko Willink?

  Example for all of us.

• 4:07:11Jocko Willink?

  In combat and in life as well, obviously, as a Marine, as a warrior, as a man, as a father.

• 4:07:21Jocko Willink?

  A true example for us all. That's Sledgehammer.

• 4:07:27Speaker 01

  Very, very well said. Thank you, Jocko.

• 4:07:31Jocko Willink?

  Well, thank you for joining us. The book is, the book is amazing. What do we need to share about it? When's it, it's?

• 4:07:40Speaker 01

  It releases June 3rd.

• 4:07:41Jocko Willink?

  June 3rd. You can preorder it right now, wherever you get books, preorder it immediately, because the publisher is not going to print enough, because they don't understand the demand for this kind of thing. So if you don't order the preorder, they're not going to have a copy for you and you're going to have to wait. And you're probably not going to get a first edition, which makes you a loser in life. If you don't get a first edition of a book, you can't go back and claim that you were in the game. So, order the first edition.

• 4:08:14Jocko Willink?

  Comes out June 3rd. I'm hoping to twist somebody's arm, your publisher's first, to do an audiobook and then yours second to get you to read the audiobook.

• 4:08:27Jocko Willink?

  So that way people can listen to it. And there's, you know, there's, there's things in an audiobook that are, and by the way, Joe, Joe Mazzella does the audiobook of With the Old Breed.

• 4:08:38Speaker 01

  Yes, I am aware of that.

• 4:08:39Jocko Willink?

  And I listened to a sample of it the other day, just to kind of get a feel for it.

• 4:08:47Jocko Willink?

  It's good to go. Sounds great.

• 4:08:49Speaker 01

  Well, the, the thing is, I mean, like with mine, I don't, like I said, my publisher asked me about that and he, you know, I said, well, I'm still working. I'd love to be able to do nothing but this, because this is my passion, but I can't keep doing my day job and do, you know, I've done a little voice work, but not on a professional level like that.

• 4:09:12Jocko Willink?

  Well, here's, here's the thing you may or may not know. You will go in there and you'll, it'll take, it takes about twice as long as the book is. So this is, this is about an eight hour book to read. So it'll probably take you 16 hours to record. You'll mess up and they'll just edit it out and they, they just fix it. The sound engineer will do a good job. It'll be great. It's not, you know, I, it's not hard labor. It's reading a book. It's reading the book that you wrote. And it would be pretty awesome.

• 4:09:45Speaker 01

  The, well, I appreciate you saying that, Jocko.

• 4:09:47Jocko Willink?

  And to the actor, voice actor that may have already recorded this and the publisher, if that's, if you've already done it, cool. All good. I appreciate it. But it was not quite done yet. Let's give, uh, let's give Henry a shot, Henry a shot at the title. They could probably do it in a recording studio close to you. So you won't have to travel anywhere. Might be worth it.

• 4:10:05Speaker 01

  I, when we, one of the HBO interviews, we, we sat down and this was actually at my mom's house. And, uh, we had to sit there and, you know, like it was my turn. So I get in the chair, they mic me up and the sound goes over there. And he goes, okay, just tell me your name. Let me get dialed in on your voice. And so I did, he goes, whoa, radio voice, man. I like this, you know? And the guy interviewing me said, man, have you ever done any voice work? And I was just like, well, you mean, you can actually get paid to do that? I would love to do that. But I've done a little bit, Jocko. I would, God, I'd love to make my living doing that. But no, it's for this. I mean, it, it would be cool. I just, I think it's already been done, you know, and I sure don't want to get between anybody's gears.

• 4:10:48Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 4:10:48Speaker 01

  You know, but I mean, I know what you're saying, you know? It's so cool to hear you read what I wrote. But I'm thinking of, you know, a, a professional narrator. I just, I don't know. I, I think, yeah, it would be a cool thing, but.

• 4:11:03Jocko Willink?

  Well, at least I hope there is an audiobook. The hard, but the hard copy for sure. You're going to want to take notes in it. You're going to want the, the, uh, first edition here. Um, you're actually on social media at H Sledgehammer on Instagram?

• 4:11:18Speaker 01

  That, that's my Instagram. I really hardly ever post anything on Instagram. I'm on Facebook, William Henry.

• 4:11:23Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So Facebook.

• 4:11:24Speaker 01

  William Henry Sledge. Yeah.

• 4:11:26Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. Awesome. That's where people can find you. And the book will be out June 3rd. We'll be, uh, we'll be watching it. Dave Berke, you got any questions?

• 4:11:36Speaker 02

  No, no questions. I, I obviously it's a huge honor for me to be here. Um, and just share this last several hours with you. And I, I want to say thanks. And, and just getting to contemplate, listening to the conversation and hearing your stories and hearing Jocko read your stories. I mean, look who you are and, and, and what you've done, what you wrote has, has guaranteed that.

• 4:12:02Speaker 02

  The success story that's Eugene Sledge extends far beyond what he did as a Marine. And as a dad, that's my goal. And you are the, you are the model of that. So I'm proud to be here and I have shared this with you. So thanks.

• 4:12:18Speaker 01

  That's, that's pretty cool, man. Thank you. It's, it's really an honor for me to,

• 4:12:24Speaker 01

  to, to be here and have you show this interest.

• 4:12:27Jocko Willink?

  Well, we're definitely interested. Uh, Henry, any closing thoughts from you?

• 4:12:32Speaker 01

  I just like I said, thank you so much for taking the time to read it and

• 4:12:39Speaker 01

  say the things you said about it. I mean, it's, it's a, an honor.

• 4:12:43Jocko Willink?

  Well, the honor is all ours. Thanks for sharing your father's story with us and thereby sharing the story of those who fought, sharing the story of those who sacrificed, sharing the story of those who never came home. And thank you for continuing to share the story of the old breed. We will never forget them. Thank you.

• 4:13:10Jocko Willink?

  And with that,

• 4:13:13Jocko Willink?

  Henry Sledge has left the building.

• 4:13:18Jocko Willink?

  So what it's all about, that's what we're here to do is remember the warriors that came before us.

• 4:13:26Jocko Willink?

  Dave, thanks for joining us. Echo, you're back in the seat over there. Dave, Marine Corps, history, culture.

• 4:13:33Speaker 02

  That, that's as, that's as good as it gets right there for me. That is just the coolest thing.

• 4:13:40Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Just outstanding, outstanding to, to see the threads of history and have, and be able to sit down with the threads of history and interact with them is amazing. What a, what a great book. What a great man. What a great family. Just

• 4:14:03Jocko Willink?

  great story. So thanks, everybody. Thanks for listening. Um, thanks for supporting. If you want to support, you want to support this podcast, you also want to support yourself.

• 4:14:15Jocko Willink?

  You're lifting, you're working out, you're training, you're being disciplined like a Marine, hopefully.

• 4:14:22Jocko Willink?

  Good to need fuel.

• 4:14:25Jocko Willink?

  We recommend Jocko Fuel. Hey, go to JacoFuel.com. Check that out. Right now, look, there's

• 4:14:33Jocko Willink?

  sometimes supply logistics can be a little bit tricky. And if you're at an online store or an all, oh, you go to a retailer, they might not have what you're looking for, but you know where they do have it? JacoFuel.com. So go to JacoFuel.com, get the real stuff, not, there's counterfeiters out there.

• 4:14:53Speaker 03

  That's weird.

• 4:14:54Jocko Willink?

  Isn't that weird?

• 4:14:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:14:55Jocko Willink?

  Did you know that, Dave?

• 4:14:56Speaker 03

  No.

• 4:14:56Jocko Willink?

  There's counterfeit Jocko Fuel stuff being made. So just go to JacoFuel.com and don't go to like the corner market. You know what I'm saying?

• 4:15:09Speaker 03

  Dot com?

• 4:15:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cornermarket.com, but also like the corner market around us.

• 4:15:13Speaker 03

  Have you ever experienced firsthand like a counterfeit? They like, you know, if I go to get a counterfeit, what, hydrate or something?

• 4:15:20Jocko Willink?

  I think you gotta work a little bit to get a counterfeit.

• 4:15:24Speaker 03

  It's just the beginnings of it.

• 4:15:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Plus, you gotta, you gotta, I don't shop at like some sketchy places.

• 4:15:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, that's all, yeah.

• 4:15:32Jocko Willink?

  I get, I don't do that. So I've seen counterfeit, I've seen fake books, ripped off books, you know? What are they called? Fake published?

• 4:15:42Speaker 03

  Counterfeit.

• 4:15:42Jocko Willink?

  Counterfeit books, yeah, pirated books. I've definitely seen pirated Jocko t-shirts.

• 4:15:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, all day.

• 4:15:48Jocko Willink?

  That's been kind of, somebody's, you know, probably done pretty well for themselves doing that. But don't do that. Go to JacoFuel.com and you can get the stuff that you need. And we know what you need. That's why we're making what you need. Plus you get subscriptions there. You get all kinds of, there's just good stuff. So JacoFuel.com. Also, we've got a, we've got the stuff available at Walmart, at Wawa, Vitamin Shop, GNC. I just got a mailer. You know what a mailer is?

• 4:16:14Speaker 03

  No.

• 4:16:15Jocko Willink?

  It's like old school coupon thing?

• 4:16:16Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Mailers, gotcha.

• 4:16:18Jocko Willink?

  But my wife just left me the mailer out from the Marine Corps Exchange. The, what is it, MCX? Is that what it is?

• 4:16:25Speaker 03

  It is.

• 4:16:25Jocko Willink?

  MCX. And guess who, who, guess who's on the cover of the MCX thing? Jocko Fuel, including Jocko.

• 4:16:32Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 4:16:33Jocko Willink?

  So I'm on there and my wife was like, hey, yells. Yep. So you get a, if you get a mailer, I guess they know that I'm military somehow. They must have my address in their system.

• 4:16:42Speaker 03

  Who?

• 4:16:42Jocko Willink?

  The Marine Corps Exchange people.

• 4:16:45Speaker 03

  That makes sense to me.

• 4:16:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can get stuff at the Marine Corps Exchange, Navy Exchange, Afees,

• 4:16:56Jocko Willink?

  Hanaford, Dash Stores, ShopRite, Wakefront, HEB down in Texas, Meyer out in the Midwest, Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Publix down in Florida, been crying, hey, everyone in Florida, they've been thirsty because they're drinking that hydrate, they're getting their protein on, much appreciated, Lifetime Fitness Shields, small gyms everywhere, you guys can make it happen. Just email [email protected]. Also, OriginUSA, OriginUSA.com. We have American-made goods built by freedom. The freedom was fought for, was sacrificed for. Don't go and buy something made by communists.

• 4:17:37Jocko Willink?

  Do I need to say that again? Do not buy something made by communists. Buy something that's made by freedom. OriginUSA.com. Jeans, boots, t-shirts, hoodies, rash guards, jiu-jitsu gis.

• 4:17:55Jocko Willink?

  By the way, we do Brazilian jiu-jitsu, FYI. You know what I'm saying?

• 4:17:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know what you're saying.

• 4:18:00Jocko Willink?

  So do Brazilian jiu-jitsu, wear a gi, but wear an American gi.

• 4:18:06Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 4:18:06Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing.

• 4:18:07Speaker 03

  They got belts too, by the way.

• 4:18:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they got custom belts, kind of.

• 4:18:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, wait, what do you mean, kind of?

• 4:18:12Jocko Willink?

  Well, I mean, they come in a color? I don't know. I guess they're not really that custom.

• 4:18:15Speaker 03

  They're custom to your own rank. Yeah, sure.

• 4:18:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Did you get one yet? Did you get that black belt, chief?

• 4:18:21Speaker 03

  Afraid not.

• 4:18:22Jocko Willink?

  I got that black belt, chief. It's very black. My belt, as you know.

• 4:18:26Speaker 03

  Right, not very black.

• 4:18:27Jocko Willink?

  Well-worn.

• 4:18:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:18:29Jocko Willink?

  So check out OriginUSA.com. Get stuff made by freedom.

• 4:18:32Speaker 03

  I have a question.

• 4:18:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 4:18:34Speaker 03

  So Origin, Pete has been, you know, posting various items on the internet in regards to footwear. I guess I saw some slippers on there, or flip flops on there, some casual shoes. What's that? Are those in the rotation? Are those coming soon? What up?

• 4:18:51Jocko Willink?

  They're live. The flip flops, we call them slippers in Hawaii, but the flip flops are not available yet. They're in testing mode.

• 4:19:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:19:01Jocko Willink?

  But you're talking about the cat, the Chelsea boots.

• 4:19:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, I was talking about those. I'm talking about the whole deal. Yeah, so the chocolate with that, those are more like the stylish.

• 4:19:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I gave mine to Carrie.

• 4:19:14Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:19:14Jocko Willink?

  Did you know that?

• 4:19:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:19:15Jocko Willink?

  You were mad about that, weren't you?

• 4:19:17Speaker 03

  Well, you know, I, I, I saw the gesture and I was, let's just say I was very happy for.

• 4:19:22Jocko Willink?

  You know why he got him?

• 4:19:23Speaker 03

  Cause he's stylish like.

• 4:19:24Jocko Willink?

  Cause he was at my house working.

• 4:19:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. Wait, I was at your house working too. I was literally right there, watched it happen.

• 4:19:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right.

• 4:19:32Speaker 03

  It's okay. We're, we're very happy for Carrie. No, I'm talking about the casual sneakers scenario.

• 4:19:38Jocko Willink?

  We're working those. Those are, those are conceptual.

• 4:19:40Speaker 03

  Those look good.

• 4:19:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 4:19:41Speaker 03

  Actually, the flip flops are good too, man.

• 4:19:43Jocko Willink?

  American made. We're getting there. OriginUSA.com.

• 4:19:46Speaker 03

  It's true. Also, chocolate historical Jocko store. That's the authentic place where you get the Jocko shirts. Not the knockoffs on Amazon.

• 4:19:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, don't you want those?

• 4:19:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. Sorry to say, and hey, look, if you got the knockoffs from Amazon, hey, I get it. You know, you're trying to represent good and you want that convenience. Good, but those are knockoffs. So that's like double communism ish. See what I'm saying? So either way, you get it at Jocko store.com. That's where the real stuff. Discipline equals freedom. Good. Get after it.

• 4:20:20Speaker 03

  Oh, that was last month's or this month's shirt locker shirt. Get a new designer. Okay. So every month. So this one is based on the shotgun that I witnessed in your possession at one point. Where it said, no fucking slack. So I didn't want to put the F word on there, you know? Keep it appropriate, but you know, see how it's kind of engraved, looks engraved like it is on your, on your shotgun there.

• 4:20:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. When I retired from the Navy in 2010, how many years ago was that? 15 years ago, almost? The boys gave me a shotgun and engraved on the shotgun.

• 4:20:54Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 4:20:55Jocko Willink?

  Where the words, no fucking slack.

• 4:20:57Speaker 03

  Yep. Which was also featured in a video that I did called time is running out. If you look close, you can see them. But anyway, yeah, that's what, so all these designs, like I said, it's called the shirt locker. It's on Jocko store.com. Subscribe to that. It's you get a new design every month. The base, all the designs are based on something. Like so if you're kind of in the game, you're gonna, the more in the game you are, the more you're gonna recognize all what it's based on. See what I'm saying? So anyway, people seem to like it. Check it out all at choco store.com.

• 4:21:23Jocko Willink?

  I like it. Also check out primalbeef.com. Get some steak. Check out Colorado craftbeef.com. Get some more steak. We got steak for you. We got steak. Good steak. I've been doing the Sean Glass methodology.

• 4:21:37Speaker 03

  Which one?

• 4:21:37Jocko Willink?

  Three, three, two, two. That's, that's how long you cook them. In a pan, you just on your stove. Freaking amazing. And I've been just using salt and pepper. That's it. But I've been cooking it like a little higher, uh, intensity of fire, of flame down there.

• 4:21:52Speaker 03

  We call it heat.

• 4:21:55Jocko Willink?

  And dude, it's really good.

• 4:21:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, I dig it.

• 4:21:59Jocko Willink?

  So check those out. Also subscribe to the podcast. Also jocko no ground.com. Also there's books. Okay. So first of all, books, we've got the old breed, the complete story by Henry Sledge. Okay. It is available right now for preorder. It comes out June 3rd. Order it now. His publisher is not going to print enough and you're going to get a second or a third edition if you don't get after this thing. So be careful of that. Obviously get with the old breed. If you haven't read that 10 times or 12 times already. Get that book. And then there's of course, just the old breed, which is out of print, I believe. I bought a first edition. Dave Berke bought a first edition.

• 4:22:42Jocko Willink?

  So if you want to get a first edition, you better jump in there because they're not cheap right now.

• 4:22:45Speaker 03

  No.

• 4:22:46Jocko Willink?

  And the price will go up. So watch out for that. Also, there's another book you need to get. Or at least you need to pre the preorder. What's the book called, Dave?

• 4:22:58Speaker 03

  The Need to Leave.

• 4:22:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So Dave Berke has a book coming out is called The Need to Lead. And it is a book about leadership.

• 4:23:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:23:09Jocko Willink?

  And when does it come out?

• 4:23:10Speaker 03

  October 21st. You can preorder now, but it comes out.

• 4:23:13Jocko Willink?

  Preorder that bad boy ASAP. So that way you don't have to think about it and you. Can get a first edition before we before they change it and they do something different to it when they put New York Times bestseller up on the top. Is that what's gonna happen? See real confident over there. We'll see. I know. I know. The the people who listen to this podcast are book buyers. So that is true. That is true. It's good to go. I wrote the forward. You did. To the book. Yep. And the book is awesome, man. It's a great book. There's awesome lessons in there. There's some it. It's the writing is great, which is impressive because your first drafts that you sent me at four years from now, I'm going to show you the first drafts that you sent me and

• 4:23:57Jocko Willink?

  you're going to be so humiliated because it's just not good. No. And and as four years from now, when I show you what you sent me, I'm going to show you what Leif and I were sending each other back and forth. Also not good. But, you know, you wrote, rewrote, wrote, rewrote, and dude, it's freaking great book. So order that book as well. And then, of course, I've written a bunch of books. So check those books out. I've written a bunch of kids books. Kids books are going to help your kids become better humans. Wave the Warrior Kid one, two, three, four, and five. Get those now. You don't have to wait till the movie comes out. Movie's coming out. We don't know when, but in the meantime, you don't want your kid getting weak, soft, and dumb. No. Because you were waiting for the movie. No.

• 4:24:41Jocko Willink?

  Like, you know, you're not signing up for that, right? Hey, is there anyone in the line at the make my kid weak, soft, and dumb market? You know what I'm saying? Club. No, there's no one in line for that. No. So don't get in line for that. Get in the line to make your kid into a warrior kid. That's what we're doing. Also, Echelon Front. We have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com for details. The next muster is down in Florida. It is going to sell out. They all sell out. If you want to go to it, it's in December. So you got some time. No?

• 4:25:19Speaker 02

  Man, I thought it was November.

• 4:25:21Jocko Willink?

  It is in the end of the year.

• 4:25:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:25:25Jocko Willink?

  So I believe it's December. Dave will be checking my correctness, which is almost guaranteed. Hey, look, am I right all the time? No, but look, are we going to wager on it Echo Charles? Do you want to bet against me? No, I'm with you. I'm betting against Dave Berke. You're betting against Dave Berke. Good move. Solid move. Hey, esalenfront.com. We have a bunch of events. We also have a leadership consultancy. We will come into your business and help you with your leadership. So if you need any support with that, go to esalenfront.com. We have the, uh, the council, which is a, it is an event that takes place up in the mountains in a remote location. And is a very small group of people. If you want to attend that also. Esalenfront.com. Check it out. When is the muster? December 7th, 8th night.

• 4:26:10Jocko Willink?

  So it sounds like I was right.

• 4:26:13Speaker 02

  You were. I'm so glad too, because I was like, is it? Oh, how is it November?

• 4:26:18Jocko Willink?

  Check. All right. So that's esalenfront. Also, we have an online training academy for leadership, extremeownership.com. What's the latest course that's come out, Dave?

• 4:26:27Speaker 02

  I think you and I just did a couple of courses. We have the ladder of alignment.

• 4:26:32Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 4:26:33Speaker 02

  And then we had the

• 4:26:34Jocko Willink?

  Hard conversations.

• 4:26:35Speaker 02

  I was just gonna say, hard conversations.

• 4:26:37Jocko Willink?

  Check. Awesome. This is how to interact with other human beings, which is what leadership is. So you need skills to do that. You aren't just born to, just like you learn how to operate a 60 millimeter mortar. You learn how to become a leader. So go to extremeownership.com. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, Gold Star families. Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Also check out heroesandhorses.org. Micah Fink up there in Montana, helping veterans find their soul. And then we got Jimmy May's organization, beyondthebrotherhood.org. Check that one out.

• 4:27:20Jocko Willink?

  And if you want to connect with us, you can check out, well, jocko.com. And then on social media, I'm at jocko willink, Echo's at Echo Charles, and Dave is at David R. Burke. Just be careful, the algorithm, because it'll get you. Once again, thanks to Henry Sledge for joining us today and for sharing more of his father's history and more history of the Marine Corps and more history of the old breed. And thanks to all of our military personnel out there with a reverent salute tonight to the United States Marine Corps and those who carry on that tradition of the old breed.

• 4:28:01Jocko Willink?

  And thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all other first responders, thank you for protecting us on the home front. And everyone else out there, here is a passage from Eugene Sledge's book, With the Old Breed. Quote, "As the sun disappeared below the horizon and its glare no longer reflected off a glassy sea, I thought of how beautiful the sunset always was in the Pacific. They were even more beautiful than over Mobile Bay. Suddenly a thought hit me like a thunderbolt.

• 4:28:45Jocko Willink?

  Would I live to see the sunset tomorrow?" End quote. Tomorrow is not promised, people. Go out and live. And that's all I've got for tonight. Until next time, this is Dave and Echo and Jocko, out.