Coaches' Corner: Ritual Over Routine, Recalibration Over Resolution & Craft Over Competition

Goals are great. But far more important is who you become in the pursuit of said goals. Focus on the inside work. Process over results. Craft over competition. Ritual over routine. Recalibration over resolution. And watch your world change. After an extended break, the ever-so-popular Coaches’ Corner edition of the podcast is back with not one Olympian, not two Olympians, but three Olympians on deck. Packed with past podcast faves, today’s panel features endurance legend and Coach’s Corner OG Chris Hauth, swimmer Caroline Burckle, and track and field turned marathon superstar (and my Malibu Triathlon relay teammate!) Alexi Pappas. For those new to the pod, Chris is a sub-9 hour Ironman champion, a former Olympic Swimmer and professional triathlete, a veteran of many an ultra-endurance challenge, my ÖTILLÖ Swimrun World Championship teammate, and one of the world’s most respected endurance coaches. Caroline (aka Burks) is a former elite competitive swimmer & Olympic medalist with 23 All American titles, 2 NCAA individual victories & NCAA Female Swimmer of the Year accolades to her name. She is the co-founder of RISE, a mentor program that pairs Olympic athletes with young elite athletes for support and guidance. And finally, Alexi is a runner, award-winning writer, poet, actor, and filmmaker. In addition to setting the Greek national record in the 10,000 meters at the 2016 Olympics, Alexi has co-written, co-directed, and co-starred in three feature films and authored the bestselling memoir Bravey, a primer on self-actualization, surviving trauma, and pursuing disparate dreams. Today Chris, Caroline, & Alexi share sage advice on everything from endurance, training, goal setting, and more. But this is not your average kick in the pants “new year-new you” narrative. Instead, it’s a collective effort to voyage beyond the tired tropes and well-trodden bullet points. Courtesy of Olympic, experience-based wisdom, it’s about leveraging fitness to evolve, grow, and live according to your values. Not only will this conversation set you on a better path to actualizing your goals, but—more importantly—it will put you on a healthy and sustainable, long-term trajectory to becoming the better, more self-actualized you within. To read more, click here. You can also watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Chris, Caroline, and Alexi are some of my favorite people. This trifecta is over the top. My hope is that their words inspire you to bust through analysis paralysis and any preconceived notions you have about who you are and what you’re capable of. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Chris Hauth?

  Potential has this amazing energy in it that you can see optimism at all times, right? It's potential to change. It's potential to grow. It's a potential to achieve. And whatever it is, it could be a miniscule little goal or objective, but you have the potential and therefore the energy to achieve it. And that's the beauty of this sort of energy of potential. We are the only creatures that can set a future thing, a potential, and then change to become it.

• 1:41Alexi Pappas?

  But what if someone doesn't believe in themselves? Because you're saying, basically, that you should just assume you have the potential. And what if someone is like, "I don't think I have it, but I want this thing."

• 1:53Chris Hauth?

  Then you look backwards and see where you've come from. Because you've come from something. You've grown from something. You've fallen forward from somewhere.

• 2:04Alexi Pappas?

  Or you find someone who's done it in challenging circumstances and you just decide, right? Like if we can't look up to ourselves, maybe that's why we're on this planet together, to look to each other for those permissions.

• 2:16Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, and having those conversations with each other. Back to the, you know, if you don't believe in yourself, what do you believe about yourself? And usually the opposite of that is the answer.

• 2:37Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. After an extended break, the ever so popular Coach's Corner edition of the podcast is not only back, but growing, growing in scope, growing in scale. Because today we have not one Olympian, not two Olympians, but three Olympians on deck. A panel of past podcast faves that include, of course, endurance legend and Coach's Corner OG Chris Hauth, swimmer Caroline Burckle, who made her Coach's Corner debut in April of 2021, and track and field turned marathon superstar and my Malibu triathlon relay teammate,

• 3:21Rich Roll?

  Alexi Pappas, who fans will fondly recall from her wildly popular appearance in episode 579 back in February of 2021. For those new to the pod, Chris is a sub nine-hour Ironman champion, a former Olympic swimmer and professional triathlete. He's a veteran of many in ultra endurance challenge. He's my O-T-L-O swim run world championship teammate and one of the world's most respected endurance coaches. Caroline, AKA Burks, is a former elite competitive swimmer and Olympic medalist with 23 All-American titles, two NCAA individual victories, and NCAA Female Swimmer of the Year accolades

• 4:06Rich Roll?

  to her name. She runs Rise, which is a mentor program that pairs Olympic athletes with young elite athletes for support and guidance. And finally, Alexi is a runner, an award-winning writer, poet, actor, and filmmaker. In addition to setting the Greek national record in the 10,000 meters at the 2016 Olympics, Alexi has co-written, co-directed, and co-starred in three feature films and authored the bestselling memoir, Bravey, which is this beautiful primer on self-actualization, surviving trauma, and pursuing disparate dreams. A few things

• 4:43Rich Roll?

  to mention about the context and the conversation to come, but first. Okay, Coach's Corner. So Coach's Corner is back, and the idea behind today's episode is to get your heart, mind, and soul correct as we enter 2022, and really just help set you on a path to not only achieve your goals, but more importantly, put you on a healthy trajectory to becoming the better, more self-actualized you within. So that's a long way of saying that this is not your average kick in the pants, new year, new you narrative. Today we go beyond the tired tropes and the well-trodden path to get to the heart of how we evolve

• 5:28Rich Roll?

  and grow. So strap in, take notes, and enjoy.

• 5:40Alexi Pappas?

  You shouldn't have introduced us.

• 5:41Rich Roll?

  I like how we did this.

• 5:43Alexi Pappas?

  You shouldn't have introduced us, but you did.

• 5:44Rich Roll?

  I know. I knew you guys would be besties. Here you are. The Coach's Corner is metastasizing. It used to just be Chris and I. We introduced Caroline. Now we have Alexi. Who knows what's gonna happen next time? It's gonna be like 10 people here. But we're all here. I feel... I'm laughing because we did a Zoom call to kind of wrap our heads around what we wanted to share and talk about and create kind of an outline out of that. And then I'm the only one who's got the outline in front of him right now.

• 6:15Alexi Pappas?

  We're winging it.

• 6:18Rich Roll?

  So much for that. But anyway, great to see you guys. It's been since April, I think, that we've done a Coach's Corner. So it's high time we convene. And it's that time of year again, that time of year where everybody's wrapping their heads around their goals, the whole like new you, new year thing. And I think part of the intention for today is to help people get their minds, bodies, spirits prepared for the new year and help people get on the right track to achieve those goals. At the same time, to sidestep or kind of upend that well-trodden but misguided path that

• 7:02Rich Roll?

  we've all heard around how you achieve goals and the way in which you set goals and to instead have a little bit more of a nuanced discussion that's much more about intention, planning, execution, in the context of not just setting and achieving goals, but really self-actualizing based on things like values. How about that, right? So where do you think we should begin?

• 7:30Chris Hauth?

  But also with all the start and stop of the last two years, right? Like even last year, New Year's, we came out of it here in California where it's like, all right, shut down again. So all your intentions maybe for going to the gym, which you couldn't, or, you know, a certain workout routine, you were sort of limited in the next shutdown. So we've had a lot of stop and go and this whole back and forth. And how do we deal with that as well? Like who coming out of this or are we not coming out of this?

• 8:01Alexi Pappas?

  Well, if studying poetry taught me one thing, it was like creativity within bounds. And I feel like all of us had to like realize that there were so many constraints, but there was still a lot that we could do within that if we chose to. What's interesting about this, this coach's corner, besides the fact that I'm here, is that I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

• 8:26Chris Hauth?

  You're very interesting.

• 8:27Alexi Pappas?

  No, this is like the first, it feels like a new year where maybe the constraints will loosen, but also maybe we're still in it, like we don't, you know?

• 8:37Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, we don't know what's coming our way.

• 8:39Rich Roll?

  Which means we all have to be a little bit more resilient, and I think getting clarity on those values and what's important to us is much more important so that we're robust in the face of, in the face of like external things that don't go our way. Like if you're, if you're not convicted, or you're not entirely clear on what it is you're trying to do, and the gym shuts down, and you're like, well, so much for that, like, can you just abandon it, then that's a pretty flimsy relationship with the thing that you're trying to manifest.

• 9:07Caroline Burckle?

  I like that, because I think there's a lot, like we've been talking about the stop and start, and that is all a part of what our bodies also experience through this too. I think a lot of people are just dysregulated and not sure which direction to go, and have a direction, but then, like you said, they go that direction, and something else happens, and pivoting can be difficult. So I think that, you know, the recalibration we talked about on our Zoom call.

• 9:31Chris Hauth?

  Yeah. Well, it just sets the theme, right, that I keep bringing up, and that is really coming to a point where you understand, or think about, or go through a process of who you want to be, and what is being, and what is that next version of you that you're looking to become for yourself? I mean, Alexa, you said choice, you said we choose, and that we chose. Choice is a big word in there, because it's who we choose we want to be, versus who we are currently, and what that might be, was that healthier, is that fitter, is that growth from a different perspective, but who we want to be sets that all up.

• 10:12Rich Roll?

  Of course, that's the, you know, never-ending deep hole of personal inquiry, but certainly the most important question in all of this, because I feel like This is the time of year where you hear a lot about, okay, you're going to set a goal and here's how you achieve it. You put it on the calendar, you work backwards, you create accountability, you establish a plan, you break it down into chunks that are digestible every single day. And you have a community of people who keep you honest and you celebrate the small wins. Like, this is not an information problem. Like, this information is readily available.

• 10:49Chris Hauth?

  We're done.

• 10:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like, okay. So today, I want to go beyond that because it really is about that question of who are you becoming? Or who do you want to be? And to answer that, I think, is both simple but difficult. And it requires a level of self-honesty and reflection that may be new to a lot of people, right? Like, how do you even begin that process? And why is that important to create the foundation for figuring out what you want to do this year?

• 11:26Caroline Burckle?

  How do you answer that question?

• 11:33Chris Hauth?

  Everybody's looking at me.

• 11:34Alexi Pappas?

  Well, what's interesting, before we dive into that, what you said about, like, we know that, we know how to go from point A to point B to point C, leading to a tangible destination. That seems to be like how goal-setting and New Year's resolutions have worked in the past. And that's the kind that everybody knows. But what I'm hearing from both of you this morning, this afternoon, and this night, nobody knows what time it is right now. It's the middle of the night. Is that you're talking more about like values and the way you want to feel and the kind of person you want to be as a... It's almost like intangible. So you're not driving towards a specific goal that you could see on paper. And I think that's almost important to talk about first

• 12:19Alexi Pappas?

  because as athletes, we're really, really trained to have a tangible goal. And that, those aren't bad. Like, we had standards we needed to hit. We have races or, you know, specific things. But I feel like where a lot of us have evolved is knowing that that sometimes, that's not the only kind of goal to have. And when, before we dive into how do we do this? I think, what is it? The type, who are we is what you said. What does that mean? And I think it can mean more than just a tangible result.

• 12:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just to piggyback on that, I mean, you need tangible goals, but those goals need to be a reflection of that self-inquiry so that they're aligned. Right? And I think a lot of people sort of spontaneously or reactively set goals without a lot of reflection around like why that might be important or not important to them. And then invest a ton of time only to find out they're chasing the wrong goal because they didn't engage in that initial process. And Chris, I'm sure you've trained a lot of people who aren't clear on why they've decided that this is the thing that they're chasing after. And a lot of people are chasing towards goals,

• 13:35Rich Roll?

  but ultimately running away from maybe the most important thing that they need to be looking at because it's easier to distract yourself with a goal and convince yourself that that's important because to really unpack whatever it is that truly needs to get addressed inside of yourself is too scary or too intimidating.

• 13:56Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, and a big hairy audacious scary goal looks great on paper. It looks great to tell other people about. It fills and checks all the boxes that make you feel really invigorated, let's say, at this time of year in January where you're looking ahead and this is who I want to become, sort of playing with the words that I just said. But the challenge around that is, if, like you said, if it's not aligned with your values and your principles, you're creating a shadow self of yours, right? That can't be actualized and integrated in who you actually are. If you're a different person as a parent, as a working professional, and all your other self-care or interest things, and then all of a sudden you create this alter ego of an athlete,

• 14:39Chris Hauth?

  sure, there's some aspects of that that can help you become better in your other versions, but that can't be completely differently aligned with your own personal values and what you stand for. And I find oftentimes that does come up because it looks great on paper or you see the website for a crazy ultra run in the mountains where you're just on the edge of a cliff and you're like, that looks like an amazing adventure. I want to do that. And then you realize, well, A, I don't have the hours to train for this. I have to give up all the values of being a family man and being there for my kids' soccer games on the weekends. But also, you know, I work for a living and life keeps getting in the way and now I'm completely sidetracked.

• 15:21Chris Hauth?

  And so it becomes a self exploration, also an understanding what you can give, who you want to be, what I've talked about with regards to an athlete mission statement. So you realize who do I want to be as I'm this athlete as I'm on this journey? Am I going, what am I going to sacrifice? What am I not going to sacrifice? What kind of boundaries am I going to create for myself? So that I can actually fulfill this promise to myself, this goal to myself? And I don't really like goals because it sets up this black and white thing. Right? We talked about this last time. And so in order to achieve that desired outcome. And once you start narrowing that down and understanding yourself better, like you just said,

• 16:02Chris Hauth?

  do you have a higher likelihood of success of not only achieving the desired outcome, but also learning a ton about yourself along the way?

• 16:10Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, you can, you can almost layer a little bit of 12 step program over this. So you begin, the way I'm understanding your thinking, Chris, is you begin with getting clear on what your values are. So maybe you write them out. My values are I want to be, or it's important to me to be a present parent and a good partner and a provider and fit and healthy and somebody who.

• 16:38Chris Hauth?

  But why?

• 16:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right.

• 16:40Chris Hauth?

  Right? So understanding why that's important to me.

• 16:42Rich Roll?

  And going, yeah, so going behind that to understand why that's important, of course. And then, but once you're kind of clear on that, then you can do an inventory on your actions and your behavior to date to see how much it aligns with those values. And we'll all identify places where we're not, we're not measuring up, right? So in that conversation around becoming, it's like, okay, my goals should be oriented around moving me towards greater alignment between the values that I aspire to inhabit and where I'm currently falling short. And to the extent that a race or something, fitness or endurance oriented, you know,

• 17:24Rich Roll?

  kind of meets up with that, then that would be evidence that maybe that is a good goal to pursue.

• 17:29Chris Hauth?

  Or a stretch or something from a growth perspective.

• 17:32Rich Roll?

  A little bit beyond your capabilities in the moment.

• 17:35Caroline Burckle?

  I think the, and just going off of all of this, one of the questions I was asked literally right after our Zoom call the other day from a good friend was, "How do you set a goal for the future while remaining in the present moment?" Like, kind of what both of you are saying, like, how can you take what you're doing right now and understand the steps to get there? So that's like the general question, I think, that we can all ask ourselves is, "Okay, you want to go do this epic race, or you want to, I don't know, go to grad school, or whatever it is that you want to do, but then, how can I do that right now?" I think that's a, that's a point of, I don't know, contention is the right word, but it can be confusing for people.

• 18:15Chris Hauth?

  And that's where the resistance comes down.

• 18:16Caroline Burckle?

  Do I have the skills right now? Exactly. Like, do I have the skills? Like, can I do that? Do I think about this future point now? Or am I supposed to set a goal for where I'm at right now, today?

• 18:25Alexi Pappas?

  I think to answer that part of it is, there seems to be a fear with your friend that this goal is either, like, unachievable because of who they see themselves as right now, or that they might change enough so that that wasn't the appropriate goal when they get to that point of a culmination. And I think, um, look, Rich said at the beginning, this Coach's Corner was, didn't happen, uh, since last April. And I think that's really appropriate, because I think that there are periods of time when we set goals, and then a period of time where we're just, like,

• 18:59Caroline Burckle?

  Executing.

• 18:59Alexi Pappas?

  Executing, suspending our disbelief and being in the, in the incubator of it, and, um, putting in the work. And I think for your friend, like, the important thing is, there's probably a million other responses to this, but what I'm seeing is like, give yourself a reasonable period of time to chase a goal, but don't plan too far in advance. I think for those listeners, we, I don't want to decide who I am in five years from now, because I will probably limit myself from who I really could be. And so, I think, I've always tried to plan, like, a year in advance at the most, because I know that I'm going to outgrow my shoes, and I can't even see the possibilities. And so, when we're talking here about goals,

• 19:40Alexi Pappas?

  I think it's important that people have a balance of setting goals and also being open to what the universe is going to bring them. And that means that this value conversation is even more important, because when opportunities come our way, we know how that factors in with our values that we have set for ourselves, as opposed to the goal we set for ourselves.

• 20:00Chris Hauth?

  I think important there, though, is also to understand, and we talked about this, is that goals are not the outcome. They're not their north star. They're not the end point. They're objectives along the way to continue to go follow your inspiration, your curiosity, to continue to grow. And you set a goal along the way to validate that you're heading in the right direction down your path, whatever your path is. And part of that has to be a curiosity that comes with that. So if you're getting a curiosity for grad school, let's pull it away from athletics for a moment, and you just always have this whisper within you, like, I should go to

• 20:42Chris Hauth?

  grad school, I'm really curious to learn more, I really want to specialize in this field and so forth. If that keeps coming up, that curiosity tied with your interest, you could even call it passion, that's going to create a lot of energy into that direction. And yeah, in your day to day life, there's many things you can do to further yourself, maybe not this tangible action that we see, let's say, in training. Because I worked out today, I'm a step closer to that goal. Maybe it's I got a good night's sleep. Maybe I read about that race. Maybe I'm cleaning up my nutrition. Maybe it's spending time with my family so that when the weekend comes around, I have an extra hour to train. Little things like that, you continue to grow towards, again, that north star, that

• 21:25Chris Hauth?

  purpose you're heading towards with goals along the way.

• 21:28Alexi Pappas?

  Do you think people don't relish enough in those little steps?

• 21:31Chris Hauth?

  I agree.

• 21:31Alexi Pappas?

  Like, what's going on?

• 21:32Caroline Burckle?

  I think the awareness isn't, like, it's the awareness piece where you're aware of the things that make you curious. You're aware of what you are doing. Like, sometimes, I mean, I'll go a week without counting one thing I've done to get to where I want, quote unquote, to be. You know, you just go and you do it, and you forget to actually relish in the moment, become aware of what's going on in your present moment, that you are doing well or that you can do better. I think that awareness piece is huge when it comes to goal setting and striving for what you want. So, yes, I think, at least for me, I know personally, I forget all the time to take a second, pause.

• 22:12Caroline Burckle?

  Sit back and be like, okay, this is today. Maybe it didn't go the way I wanted it to with work or life or whatever. But here are the things that I did do so that I can get closer to living in my values of the place that I want to be. And that can change every week. I feel like, you know, it's going to pivot. It's going to change. It's a muscle. But it's practicing the awareness of, I'm just gonna take a pause for a second and and reflect on that.

• 22:40Rich Roll?

  Everything worth paying attention to emanates from your curiosity and your imagination. But we're in a culture that doesn't really prioritize or value the exploration of your curiosity as anything meaningful. So I think a lot of people, you know, we all have these curious moments, but I think very few people take those seriously. We just dismiss them or we say, well, that's crazy, or I don't have time, or this is not who I am, or, or they scare us. So we kind of push them down and move on. And to your point, Alexi, the idea of like valuing those and saying, how can I breathe just a tiny bit of energy into that? If it's grad school, I can go on the internet and, you know, look at a couple of schools

• 23:23Rich Roll?

  and just find out what the admissions requirements are, like a tiny little action that nobody would say, wow, that's a big step in the right direction. But that's just, you're, you're like fertilizing your little plot of land with energy. And then it's easier the next day to say, maybe I should find out how much this costs or when is the application due and what am I going to have to do in order to submit it? All of those things, you know, each day that passes where you do a little task like that, it becomes a little bit more and more real and also more believable, like, oh, I'm already doing this. So maybe I am somebody who could do this thing.

• 23:59Alexi Pappas?

  It's almost like the little tasks that we complete along the way should be more like the three-point shots and the other things should get like two points, you know, like it should be like a bigger deal to us, but we are going to have to assign a different value to those little tasks that you talked about. And I don't know why, but what you kept saying about like curiosity makes me think about like curiosity, following your curiosity feels like following your instincts, right? Like those are siblings, wouldn't you say?

• 24:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think of them as a little bit different, but go ahead.

• 24:30Alexi Pappas?

  You think they're different?

• 24:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 24:31Alexi Pappas?

  Okay, well, I think that they're more related than curiosity is related to like Discipline and like making decisions ahead of time. And I think when we, this might seem abstract, but when we talk about chasing a goal, often the association is like discipline, discipline, discipline. And I think we're a little overwrought with like the furrowed brownness that that comes with. But when you talk about setting your values and then being able to follow your curiosities like this, it feels more closely related to following your instincts. And so often, the things standing in our way, I think, from like really achieving a goal for the right reasons, is doing it for the wrong reasons,

• 25:15Alexi Pappas?

  which might be closer related to discipline. I know this sounds, I'm just gonna root it in something specific. I chased my Olympic dream, I think, strongly because I wanted to run away from a really challenging experience with my mom and her mental health and taking her own life. And I wanted to be successful and happy because it's what I thought she was not. And what I found when I got there was that achieving an Olympic dream was amazing and wonderful, but it never solved that internal problem. However, in my recent race in New York City, that felt like as big of a deal to me as the Olympics because I had come off a huge surgery in my hamstring. And I was really nervous and I knew I couldn't race. I knew I could run.

• 25:57Alexi Pappas?

  And I ran the thing like a Broadway star dancing through the streets. And I entirely followed my instincts. And if I had followed like my discipline of what I should do as an athlete, I wouldn't have run well because I wasn't ready to. And I also wouldn't have had that experience. That was so euphoric for me as a person. And I actually outgrew my fear of becoming my mother because I did my most instinctual thing. And sorry to just share this.

• 26:25Chris Hauth?

  No, no, this is great. I think it's a great example. Because it's a great example.

• 26:29Alexi Pappas?

  So like, I always associated, anytime I was eccentric or a little bit strange, as her territory, which felt very dangerous to me. And my whole life, I feel I've been constructing a path for myself, goals, that take me away from her world because I don't want to want to die. And in that moment, I just decided to lean into my most curious instincts. And that was the best iteration of my race that day. And it also allowed me to show myself that I could be as close to her as probably I've ever been in my life. And I didn't, it didn't fail me. And so I don't know where that leaves us here, but I just wanted to share that.

• 27:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's beautiful. I think there's a finer point about instincts, though, because it would be equally instinctual for you to have not done that because of your fear around becoming like your mother, right? So having-

• 27:22Chris Hauth?

  I think that's gut. She is coming from her gut.

• 27:24Rich Roll?

  But what's the difference between gut and instinct, right?

• 27:26Chris Hauth?

  I think gut is the whisper, is your path, that you don't even, that subconsciously knows which way to go.

• 27:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:33Chris Hauth?

  And developing who you are, independent of your mother.

• 27:36Rich Roll?

  Distinguishing those two is a fine art, though, because a lot of people will say, "My instinct or my gut is to do this thing, thinking that's a trustworthy impulse," when in fact, they're unaware that they're reacting to some past trauma, or they're using it to hide for- it's like, it's a pattern, right? And they're like, "I'm just gonna repeat the pattern. That's what my gut is telling me to do." That's not really the higher self trying to emerge and whisper to you that, like, you could be more. So I think part of this question or exercise in asking yourself, "Who do you want to be?" is about that journey towards wholeness or self-actualization, such that you can get to the place where you

• 28:20Rich Roll?

  have cultivated sufficient awareness, where you can trust those instincts or that gut, as opposed to being concerned that that instinct is actually some old pattern, you know, trying to get you to do the thing that you always do. So in sobriety, like, that's the whole thing. Like, when you're newly sober, it's like, you need to run all your decisions by somebody else, because your instinct is the thing that got you into this problem, and you can't really trust your instincts right now. You need a bunch of people to help you make better decisions, until you've grown enough-

• 28:54Rich Roll?

  To where that becomes a trustworthy relationship again.

• 28:57Alexi Pappas?

  What did you trust your instincts again then? Like, what was the?

• 29:00Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's like, it's a sliding scale. It's a slow thing. And there's still things that, you know, there's still decisions that I run by lots of people because I'm like, I don't, my, like, my gut's telling me I should do this. And then if 10 people who I really trust are like, no, that's a bad idea, then I need to look at myself and try to figure out like, why my instinct is telling me to do this thing that everybody says I shouldn't. And sometimes my instinct's right and I shouldn't listen to those people. And other times, they're 100% right and they save me from, you know, doing something I shouldn't be doing.

• 29:32Alexi Pappas?

  This, okay, there's a thing in nature that is exactly what you're doing, which is that I was taught that, I used to feel really bad when I asked for reassurance from people, like, because I thought it meant I was self-conscious or I couldn't do it myself. And yours seems to be coming from like, a background of awareness and what you overcame. But I was told that the wolves in the wild, that are very deadly to each other. They travel in these packs. They are constantly like nudging, rubbing each other's noses and nudging each other to say like, hey, it's okay, you're safe. And therefore, like, we humans are meant to do that with each other, even if we didn't have, like, the experience you had with addiction. Like, we're supposed to, like, reassure each other and have our wolf packs.

• 30:15Alexi Pappas?

  And I feel like it's important to say here, because so often on these New Year's resolutions, you feel like, I go alone and I will do my task and everybody will do theirs in their lane, you know?

• 30:25Chris Hauth?

  Or I will come out of the spring and new me and nobody will recognize me.

• 30:29Alexi Pappas?

  Right, right, yeah. And really, we need each other, so it's important to say that.

• 30:33Chris Hauth?

  No, that's a, that's a beautiful point, for sure.

• 30:35Caroline Burckle?

  And I think failing along that path of understanding your instinct and your gut is part of the process, you know? And I think to your point about your Olympic journey and going through that, I'm sure you failed more times trying to trust your gut than you can remember. I know I did when I completed my career. It's like, one thing after the next, trying to prove, prove, prove, and failing to an extent to where I could understand that this is. A reaction to the past, and this is not what I'm going for in the future. So I think, again, it's just stepping back and pausing and taking a second to take inventory of what is my gut telling me? Is that the past? Is it the present? Is it the future?

• 31:20Caroline Burckle?

  I do this little, this is very cheesy, but with our athletes that we work with, we have these little stick figures, past, present, future. And part of the check-in at the actual session, or what our mentors do with the athletes, is saying, where's the head? And the athlete will draw the head on the stick figure of where they are that day, whether it's living in the past, living in the present. And I like get so emotional talking about it because it's so cute, because it's so simple. Yet, we don't pause enough to sometimes recognize, where are we actually?

• 31:53Alexi Pappas?

  It's where is our attention?

• 31:54Caroline Burckle?

  Where is our attention?

• 31:55Alexi Pappas?

  And that's, that's very important here to think about, not just what we're doing on paper, because you could be a chef in the kitchen, delivering all the things you're delivering, but your mind is on fashion. I don't know why I'm always like, the chef really wants to be a fashion designer.

• 32:09Rich Roll?

  I need to go to CVS and get those beads.

• 32:13Alexi Pappas?

  He's acknowledging for everyone, my beautiful beads that I'm wearing today. But, so that's really what you're saying with the heads is, part of setting all these goals or stepping into the future is really being honest with ourselves about where our attention truly is, versus where do we want it to be? And then, how do we create an environment where we can shift our attention, if it needs shifting?

• 32:36Caroline Burckle?

  Yes, and like, that was a total tangent I just went on, but that's exactly my point, is like-

• 32:41Alexi Pappas?

  That's why we're a good team.

• 32:42Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, so great, good teamwork. But that's, that's exactly, I mean, to your point too, of trying to follow this path of, how do I get to a goal? It's like, again, are we pausing? Where are we? What space is our head in? Are we actually present? Is our head and our body actually in the same location?

• 32:58Chris Hauth?

  But that can be overwhelming. Very overwhelming. What Rich said before is like, all right, once we've aligned everything and we've done this and we've checked our gut and now we're doing this, like, people might go, forget it, I'm out. Like, that's a lot to check. I just want to run a marathon, like, leave me alone. So, you know, it's, again, it's defining who you want to be. I know I keep coming back to that. But if it's just like, you know what? This isn't, doesn't have to go that deep. I just want to run my first marathon. Like, all right, what do I need to do to, you know, do that successfully? And, you know, I work 60 hours a week. So, how am I going to run a marathon? And it's like, all right, well, I can go through these steps that you were describing, or I could just start running and training and figuring it out.

• 33:40Chris Hauth?

  And the important thing is not take myself so seriously, not put these sub-three-hour, sub-four-hour Boston qualifying goals on it, and just see who I become along the process, who I become along the journey. Because then, you're going to get back to values and identifying and awareness. You're going to notice these shifts where it's like, huh, I really liked that part of the training. I really liked the strength work. I really liked the long runs. And you start defining, all right, there's the curiosity to maybe follow.

• 34:14Rich Roll?

  We'll be back with more Coach's Corner in a second. But first.

• 34:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that goes back to this idea of becoming and the tension between that and what I think is more typical, which is the sense that you have to have it all figured out when you set the goal, and this is how it's going to go, and this is how it's going to feel when I get there. And that need to overly define everything creates paralysis in people because they're like, well, you know, until I figure out the ultimate running shoe, like, I'm not going to start my training. And so, they'll be online, you know, for days, you know, reading customer reviews of running shoes, you know? And it just becomes an excuse because there's a fear block there. And that, like, whatever that thing is inside of you that needs to, like, understand everything

• 35:07Rich Roll?

  before you can begin, actually is, is not only paralyzing you, but really handicapping you from being open to the beautiful mystery of what gets unveiled.

• 35:20Rich Roll?

  How you are becoming just by dint of engaging with the process. Like, you're not supposed to know it all. Like, it's not, it's not meant to be that way. You're supposed to learn as you go.

• 35:31Chris Hauth?

  That's half the fun.

• 35:31Rich Roll?

  And maintaining openness is key to that. And that's why curiosity is so important. Because if you are truly curious about this, the more you do it, that will create more curiosity, which will lead you to different types of opportunities. And, you know, all of these things kind of percolate to the surface because you're in the doing, not in, in the, in the knowing business.

• 35:55Caroline Burckle?

  Yes. I was gonna go down that path, sorry. I was gonna go down the doing, the doing and just being in that experience. And I don't know if that's like taking us off topic here, but, you know, we're in this conversation of everyone's thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, how do I do this? How do I do this? Do I sit down with a notebook? Do I write these things down? And then like, am I supposed to know tomorrow? Am I supposed to have this figured out? How do we actually not do that? And that's the conversation of like, where do we start within ourselves? And within our bodies and being present? Like, how is that from all of your all's thoughts? Like, where does that happen? Does that make sense?

• 36:32Alexi Pappas?

  It does. So I think it's like rooted in the very fact that, and this is my belief, I think it's true, that actions change first, then thoughts, then feelings, in that order only. Actions, then thoughts, then feelings. And so what we're all talking about is being in our heads, being super intellectualizing everything and being cerebral and needing to chase perfection before we even take a step. And I think what we all have to accept going into this new year is that the actions will be the leader to all of those things. And maybe you start by thinking about, what is the feeling I would like to have? And maybe that is related to your values. But ultimately, the only thing that's gonna get you to those feelings

• 37:16Alexi Pappas?

  are your actions and then your thoughts and then your feelings. That's what I believe.

• 37:19Caroline Burckle?

  I agree.

• 37:20Alexi Pappas?

  And therefore, there's no reason. I'm pretty like insensitive here about like, there's no writer's block. Like, there's no, like, just take the steps. And so can we just all commit to like, there's no more just like spinning around? Like, like, take the steps, you know?

• 37:36Chris Hauth?

  The only way to change a story? Is by taking action. You can't change your narrative. You can't change the story, your story, if you don't start moving forward with action. Words are just part of a story. You're back into story. But action breaks the chain. So you're actually creating a new story, a new version of yourself tomorrow. The story is broken because the narrative has changed. You've shifted. And there's only one way to go about that, and that is action.

• 38:08Alexi Pappas?

  I like that.

• 38:08Rich Roll?

  One of the things, Chris, that you've talked about and written about is this idea of defining potential. So if you're in a situation where you feel like you're clear on your values and you've sufficiently answered the question of like, who do you want to be? The process of doing that defines potential. And potential puts you in a situation to build momentum, energy, more curiosity and excitement around whatever it is you're pursuing. So maybe elaborate on that a little bit.

• 38:41Chris Hauth?

  Well, you guys just brought it up with regards to potential. There's an energy behind that that we want to capture. That creates a little bit of a momentum slash dopamine hit slash effort to start the process, to start action. And I think the fun part about potential, once you sort of get a good idea of what you want to do, because I believe values are always shifting and changing. And we're never, we don't want to wait. Okay, these are my values. Finally found them. Now I move forward. Everything will be different in a few weeks.

• 39:11Alexi Pappas?

  That's so real, though. I mean, it is a very real experience. What's an example of a value? But then keep talking. In case we're confused.

• 39:17Chris Hauth?

  For something like for me, like when I reflect on if I lived in alignment with my values today or yesterday, because I journal in the morning, it's more like, did I follow through on what I said I would do today? Did I check in with my loved ones in a present way? Those things are important to me. Back to what I said to Risha. Why? Because I've overlooked those things in the past and I want to make them a priority now. And I know those left me empty if I didn't. And so now I've been able to identify over years that that's a critical value for me, doing, following through on what I say, not being disciplined, but following through on what I say.

• 39:56Chris Hauth?

  And as well as, you know, Not being so rough on the edges with regards to, "Well, this is what I said I'd do. Everything else is blocked out." I mean, that's our, that's our DNA for us sitting here, right? And so being flexible, and that's, that's a big part of it. So identifying that and every day knowing, did you do that? Did you check in with that? Did you live in alignment? Whenever something comes up where I have to make a decision or I have to look at something challenging, whether it's with my kids or for myself, it's more of, is this in alignment with my values? What do my values tell me? And if I don't have the answer, that's fine. There's not always going to be black and white, but at least I ask myself that question.

• 40:39Alexi Pappas?

  Do you have trouble sleeping at night? If you, before bed are like, "I didn't try my best today with my values," or?

• 40:47Chris Hauth?

  Those days have sort of gone away.

• 40:52Chris Hauth?

  But they were definitely somewhere there in the past.

• 40:57Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 41:00Chris Hauth?

  But that's also tied to a sense of what you were bringing up before, that a lack of fulfillment, that I didn't apply this thinking back when I was an athlete. And I wasted a lot of potential, right? And so because I didn't do it with this mindset, that I didn't follow through with the best of my abilities on that day, I feel like I left a lot of potential on it. And so I went chasing that for many years and on a path of ultra endurance and triathlon. So, yeah, it used to leave me up at night.

• 41:36Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah.

• 41:37Rich Roll?

  Chris's arc is very interesting because he is a lifelong athlete, who was an Olympic swimmer and then a professional triathlete and won some Ironmans. Started coaching in a very Germanic way, like a very regimented, "Here's your training plan. I'm going to get you to Kona," or what have you. And over many years of just life and experience. You're now in this very, you know, expanded capacity in how you mentor and coach people. It's really much more of a life coaching bent than it is about like regimens for getting you across a certain finish line. And it's been really cool to watch that evolution

• 42:19Rich Roll?

  and see all of the personal growth in you and how that trickles down or translates into how you interact with all of your athletes that you work with.

• 42:28Chris Hauth?

  But it ties into what we were saying just earlier. I use endurance athletics, endurance experiences, endurance adventures as a vehicle to bring out that growth in people. It's not just physical. Physical is the excuse for having the conversation about their spiritual and mental growth too. That's just my avenue. There's other ways in meditation, or psychedelics, or therapy, or, but I believe over the years that endurance athletics has given many people the time and the space, they've created space for themselves out there, immersed in nature,

• 43:09Chris Hauth?

  to spend that time with themselves and ask themselves these questions. And so that's where the work is. The fact that you have this outlet, this time, this, all right, well, if I'm going to be out here on a five hour run, or a six hour bike ride, or a four hour swim, just in your head, I might as well use that time and prompts and thoughts with athletes around that.

• 43:30Alexi Pappas?

  That's really beautiful because it also suggests that this sport, if it's sport, or if it's these other, you called it an outlet, right? Vehicle, the vehicles, that they're only there to service our personal growth and that you see humans as changing things, that that's what life is, really. And I think for everybody trying to set these goals, like, let's just say it's a sport that you've been doing, I think we have to let go of any hope that it will be the same as it once was. And we're never trying to put back together what we were, because we are growth mindset people, and it will evolve

• 44:13Alexi Pappas?

  with us. And I think sport is a tough one, because we are always trying to stay forever Like preserved or something in a snow globe of ourselves. And sports are meant to grow with us. And I think that's important to accept as we go into our goals, whatever those are, athletic or otherwise, and know that we will evolve and the sport or whatever our pursuit is should evolve with us.

• 44:37Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, we're always evolving, exactly what you're saying. And that old version of us, and again, athletics and sport allows us to do that. What we were just saying about shedding the past story and narrative. Athletics is one way to see, tangibly see, I am no longer that person from six months ago who could barely run a 10K. Now I can run a 20K comfortably. I'm a new normal. I'm a new person. I'm a different person from who I was back then, as well as the things I shed with that, right? In order to be something, do something you've never done before, whether that's an endurance adventure or go to grad school or something, you have to do things different than you've ever done them.

• 45:18Alexi Pappas?

  So maybe a New Year's resolution isn't just like putting on a new goal cape, but it's also like taking off the skin that we were before. Like, we have to visualize that it's both. It's not just like another coat and then another jacket on top and then, because you don't carry anything at all. You're just full of jackets.

• 45:35Chris Hauth?

  That's a great way, but that's also the pandemic in 2021. Like, let's, that thing should die. Goodbye.

• 45:42Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah.

• 45:42Chris Hauth?

  Goodbye, right? Like, and we're emerging out of that, we're evolving out of that. And who do we want to emerge as? Like, we had this discussion going into the pandemic. Like, who do you want to be on the other side of this?

• 45:54Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah.

• 45:55Chris Hauth?

  We just dropped on the other side of this to who you want to be.

• 45:57Alexi Pappas?

  What did you guys say? You have to tell us.

• 46:00Chris Hauth?

  Well, we were talking more from a coach's corner and athlete itself, right? And being prepared for when events open back up. This was like two years ago.

• 46:07Alexi Pappas?

  But what did you say?

• 46:08Chris Hauth?

  And then Boston will happen in November and like be ready to go at any time. And it didn't. Yeah. But yeah, we talked a lot about that. Being prepared and what's important to you in your training so that even when no one's looking, even when there are no events, you are looking. You're looking at yourself and you're following through on your own growth because that serves you. And you following through on your training and what you said you do serves your community because you're a leader and you sort of are that beacon of health and consistency and fitness for your community. And you're also growing from a standpoint of

• 46:48Chris Hauth?

  The craft itself, I'm doing this when nobody's looking, right? And so all those things combined, again, that can be value no matter what time it is, whether it's new year or coming in and out of a pandemic. These things you do them because you care. You add meaning and a personal aspect and a purpose to it so that you're just working on improving just you, your craft, what you decide to be your craft. And nobody has to be looking.

• 47:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And again, it always goes back to the becoming because the pursuit of that craft, the anonymous things that you do every day to improve yourself when nobody's looking is the crucible that allows you to grow and expand and evolve. So it's not about the time standard. It's about the person that you become because of the daily practice of doing the thing, right?

• 47:46Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 47:46Rich Roll?

  And what makes, I'm sure there's many different avenues and vehicles for this kind of exploration, but I do think there's something unique and special about endurance sports because it requires that you spend a lot of time alone, preferably in nature, in an elevated heart rate state, but not too elevated. So it almost creates this calming of the mind and an active meditation state that allows you to perform a little self-inquiry, get present with yourself and ruminate on all of these bigger questions that we don't permit ourselves to indulge in in our busy lives or we just don't ever have a quiet bandwidth to do so. So it kind of forces you into that.

• 48:29Rich Roll?

  And I just know for myself, like, that's the greatest gift of trying to achieve a goal in this sport because it takes you on this journey. And there's countless stories of people, they cross the finish line, they achieve their goal or they don't achieve their goal, but they are changed in the process of doing it and they are never the same. And when I look, Alexi, you talked about running the New York City Marathon, like, You're capable of running a marathon in X amount of time. You threw that out the window. You started with the elite women. They ran off and you just had a good time. And that might be the most meaningful race that you've ever done. Like, people loved it and you got to connect with so many people. And I'm sure when you cross that finish line,

• 49:12Rich Roll?

  that you were changed in a certain type of way because of the choices you made and the attitude that you brought to having a different kind of experience.

• 49:21Chris Hauth?

  But you have to be ready to have her story. Because if you're not ready for it, you get crushed when the elite women run away from you. And you're holding on to the old narrative of who I was.

• 49:32Rich Roll?

  The snow globe.

• 49:33Chris Hauth?

  Why am I not up there? And you start self, you know, you beat yourself up about it. And you're like, I've been injured and I know I'm capable of that. And this whole thing starts perpetuating. But you are in a place where you're ready to say, I'm OK.

• 49:49Alexi Pappas?

  Well, but I had to set it up. Like, look, I hired a makeup designer to come in my room. No, no, no, this is true. I had a glitter, I had this adorable Greek makeup designer come to my room the night before and paint a star on my face and glitter because I knew that if I was going to fall back from a pack, people know me and I didn't want them to think this person's injured or, and I wanted to remind myself that it was meant to be fun. And so I do think what you're saying is we need to try to be mindful before we enter the battle of chasing our goal for what our values really are. Because had I not put any thought into it, I would have honestly tried to race

• 50:32Alexi Pappas?

  and I would have done things that would have not been aligned with what my values were that day. So we do have to create the environment where we're most likely to be able to pursue those values. I think that's so.

• 50:47Chris Hauth?

  And not beat ourselves up about it. Because like I had a conversation with an athlete yesterday and. You know, he's struggling with some things and he knows he I asked him, well, what was hardest for you last week? And he's like, well, this, you know, one morning, I just didn't want to get out of bed. I'm like, great, let's dive into that. So we spoke about that a little bit, but it's it's similar in that I bring it up in that you prepared yourself that if the narrative comes up, you have a response to it. You had already thought ahead that when those elite women move away from you, I have an answer to those doubts, to that negative voice on my shoulder. And I've created this fun action that I'm going to have today and this intention for today that I'm not going to let it get me down.

• 51:32Chris Hauth?

  I'm going to actually embrace it and enjoy it.

• 51:35Alexi Pappas?

  I think it's like setting up a picnic for your future self.

• 51:38Chris Hauth?

  Exactly.

• 51:39Alexi Pappas?

  Like you set the picnic up and you're like, and maybe this answers your question about your friend of like, what's my future self? It's like, imagine you're setting up a nice, beautiful picnic for you and your future self. And you're going to set the table and you're going to bring all the goodies and you hope that they'll love it. And probably they will.

• 51:55Chris Hauth?

  But what if it rains?

• 51:58Alexi Pappas?

  Then you're there with them.

• 51:59Chris Hauth?

  Something, but at least you have you have an answer. And that's what I was saying with the athlete. I was like, all right, you know, this resistance is coming in the morning, right, to get up for swimming. But now, why don't you write out an index card the night before of what happens if it rains at my picnic? All right, so that when it comes up, when that alarm goes off, you already know that index card is lying right there. And I already wrote out what my response is going to be to my future self, picnic self, because it's raining, right? But I'm still going to have the picnic because there's other things to be enjoyed in that moment. Friends, like you said, for him, get out the door, get the workout done because you know after, you always feel great, right? But you had that first impetus.

• 52:43Chris Hauth?

  So that's huge that you prepare yourself. Again, you're aware, what we said within the first 90 seconds of talking, awareness of seeing what's happening to you and working with that. You don't have to have an answer to it. You don't have to be better than it, but that you're just aware of what's happening and you can sort of work with it, dance with that devil, with that resistance, whatever we want to call it. I like Resistance. I love that book. So, yeah.

• 53:14Rich Roll?

  I think behind that also is it's important to try to figure out a way to connect with joy. So in the context of like Alexi's race, like, okay, well, how can I make this fun? Like, how can I make this an uplifting experience for me and maybe other people as well? And I just know as I get older and I find myself indulging in that snow globe comparison thing, like, I used to be able to do this, why can't I do it now? Or what would I have to do in my life to get back to that place? Whereas the healthier response is like, how can I make this a joyful experience? And that doesn't mean that there isn't a grind involved and a pay now, love it later,

• 53:56Rich Roll?

  you know, kind of relationship to having to do things you don't necessarily want to do in that moment. But in the grander scheme, it's a joyful pursuit. And I think for me, that means detaching from, you know, metrics and results and things like that. And just looking at it as this, you know, journey of personal growth and evolution and community and nature and all of these things that got me into it in the first place. So joy, I think, is a cousin to curiosity. When you feel those moments of curiosity percolating up, usually there is, if you indulge them, there's a little bit of joy that happens with that. Like, how can you figure out how to channel that joy? And make sure that whatever goals that you're setting or ambitions that you're harboring for yourself

• 54:41Rich Roll?

  have that joy piece in there? Because if it's joyful, or there is at least a bedrock of joy to it, you're more likely to stay with it and it will get you through the tougher moments.

• 54:53Caroline Burckle?

  So what happens, though, when people struggle accessing joy? Or have the guilt around doing something for a joyful reason? Like, it has to be hard. It has to be intense and painful. And, you know, and I'm speaking from my past self in many ways.

• 55:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I get that completely. That's why joy is hard for me. Because it's like, if I'm not suffering, I'm not working hard enough. It could be better, I could be better unless it's super hard.

• 55:23Alexi Pappas?

  Well, joy is really Chris is laughing. Joy is so contagious. But joy is contagious. Like, you, joy, people love seeing joy. People, it rubs off on people. So I think we have to accept that our joy is not exclusive to us. Our joy is like a bubble around us that people can get a little bit of.

• 55:42Caroline Burckle?

  But how do you, I guess

• 55:44Alexi Pappas?

  But I understand. You're saying it from like, if you're a competitive athlete and your brow isn't furrowed, are you doing it hard enough?

• 55:49Caroline Burckle?

  I think it's the number one conversation I've had in the past year, actually, with my closest friends. And I don't know if the pandemic brought this up or what, but it's like, things should be hard. Like, I should struggle through this for it to be rewarding. And I know, you know, you and I have had this conversation and it can be a difficult thing to access that joy. Like, what does it feel like? Like, what does it feel like to be joyful? What does it feel like to want this amazing quote unquote "goal" that has joy along with it? Am I supposed to struggle along the way? Like, how do I find that joy along the way? I think it's a broad conversation, but it's something that I think we can all

• 56:26Alexi Pappas?

  Relate to.

• 56:27Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, relate to and talk about because it's, it's an important one, especially when there is a lot of suffering in the world and people think, oh, I shouldn't be having a joyful goal to go, you know, summit X peaks and what a nice life I have. Like, I shouldn't, I mean, these are conversations I hear all the time.

• 56:43Alexi Pappas?

  But you're

• 56:44Caroline Burckle?

  And it's a real conversation.

• 56:46Alexi Pappas?

  You're, in our family tree of words that are cousins and siblings, I feel like we are putting challenge and pain and grit and all those things that you're talking about hard, really, really close to the word integrity. Because you're basically saying that if you don't have all those things, then you're not like trying your best and you don't have integrity.

• 57:06Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 57:06Alexi Pappas?

  And maybe we should talk about can integrity, if maybe that's not even the right word, should be closer to joy? And can joy be closer related to integrity? Does that feel like the judgment, the note beneath the note? Like, what's the judgment on a person who's not gritting like that? Is it that

• 57:26Caroline Burckle?

  I think

• 57:26Alexi Pappas?

  That they're a bad person?

• 57:27Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, I think it just, it goes back to what you were saying at the beginning too. What do they believe to be true about themselves to begin with? Because I think that's why people don't access joy.

• 57:38Alexi Pappas?

  Because you're saying, what does being joyful and chasing joy say about me?

• 57:43Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, like, I don't work hard enough. Shouldn't come easily to me.

• 57:46Rich Roll?

  Right, you're a trivial person.

• 57:48Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 57:48Alexi Pappas?

  Right.

• 57:48Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 57:49Rich Roll?

  Because you're not exerting enough grit. And if you're perhaps not that joyful, but not working that hard, then you're just, you're, you're a weak person.

• 57:58Caroline Burckle?

  And I'm not saying, don't, I'm, I'm all for joy over here. I think it's an important thing and, and it's, it's just a conversation I've heard more often than I would have expected over the past year, which, you know, begs so many different questions.

• 58:12Rich Roll?

  Meaning, what you're saying is, what you're hearing is that it would be indulgent of me to pursue something that brings me joy in this moment of, you know, difficulty for everybody. And I don't feel, I don't feel deserving of that.

• 58:26Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah. Or what does it even feel like?

• 58:27Chris Hauth?

  That's different, though. That's a different avenue of that than the, I'm not working hard enough if I'm not suffering.

• 58:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, those are different things.

• 58:35Chris Hauth?

  I think those are two different things. Um, I think the first one does tie into the values again, and what's important to me. And it's okay that I go further myself despite these times, because guess what? When I come back from that call to adventure, as Joseph Campbell says, with the elixir, and I can contribute more energy and love and joy to my community and bring that wisdom and that growth with me and try in my best way to disseminate that, I think that's a bigger contribution overall than worrying in the moment what others might think of me. I need to, that's, that's a bigger question that we're running into right now with regards to mental health.

• 59:18Chris Hauth?

  Like, I need to take care of myself. And if that is something that I want to follow through on and brings me joy, or even just that I feel drawn to, or there's a curiosity pulling me towards that, that is a nugget that we should pursue.

• 59:34Alexi Pappas?

  I, I almost feel like crying because like in the last couple of weeks, I feel like I've aligned myself with more brands, like I'm still a sponsored athlete and I have aligned myself with brands that have actually embraced me as a whole person. And, and it's made me realize how much before that I felt like I had to be what you said, this like furrowed brow person. And I would segment off all the parts of my life from each other so that... I appeared to be doing what everybody wanted me to do in those worlds. And it was a really hard, I felt like an octopus where I had like eight legs and they were all in different directions and they couldn't touch each other.

• 1:00:17Alexi Pappas?

  And last week, I finally, you know, I saw you, Rich, in Texas, but I finally got to spend time with a team I just joined that actually really does embrace me for the whole thing and that joy was okay. And I feel so embarrassed to like say that it took me a really long time to feel like that was okay. And now I feel like after New York, I got so many messages of people who were like, "I'm gonna run a race and smile." And I was like, almost cried because why couldn't they do that before? And like, why did they have to see me do that in order for them to feel like they could enjoy a race or like dance or something? And so I just feel like my whole life is changing now and I want to be more joyful

• 1:01:01Alexi Pappas?

  and that I'm not hurting anybody by being joyful. And I think all we want is to not hurt people or disappoint them. Like, I even told you, Rich, that I felt I didn't want to disappoint you because I drank. And that was a really hard thing to tell you. I don't know why I'm doing this here like this, but...

• 1:01:16Caroline Burckle?

  It's real, though. I think what you're saying is extremely real. And I think, you know, not to like, I think our, maybe our experience as a woman can be different, trying to please and have that feeling as an athlete. Like, I have to make, make sure everybody approves of me. I don't know, I'm not, I'm not in your all shoes, so I don't know.

• 1:01:33Rich Roll?

  I mean, certainly that burden is heavier if you're a female athlete.

• 1:01:36Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, I think it can be heavy in a different, in maybe a different way. I'm only speaking for myself, I can't speak for everybody else. But I think that does tie into everything we're talking about. Because when we sit here and have this feeling of, "I need to do these things," it's like, for who? Again, who are you becoming, for who? What are we doing this for?

• 1:01:55Chris Hauth?

  I think it's beautiful what you said, Alexi, but that also ties into what we're saying earlier. Like, if your other parts of you, your eight legs, aren't integrated towards the values and principles of you, truly you...

• 1:02:10Chris Hauth?

  Then it feels like that.

• 1:02:11Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:12Chris Hauth?

  And when it all comes together, it doesn't have to be in a perfect alignment, but they're all sort of working towards the same north star. Your energy and love and joy and passion and what you exude is 10 times more powerful. And people feel that. They feel that you have let go, you're lighter and you exude an energy and a joy because you're getting more and more in alignment towards that higher self of you. And the energy that you were scattering amongst those eight legs before. It was still amazing energy, but now it's all coming together into one energy packet.

• 1:02:55Chris Hauth?

  And that's gonna, it took me 25 years to figure this out. The fact that you're figuring it out now, I'm jealous.

• 1:03:02Caroline Burckle?

  And I think it goes in ebbs and flows too. I know there's been times in my life where I wouldn't have ever questioned joy. And then other times where I'm like, wait, no, I can't possibly have fun. Or like, I can't possibly do this and enjoy. I need to like stay here and focus and do the, and it robs the joy. Like ironically, everything is just, is taken from that experience and I don't even have the same experience. And then I end up not even doing the thing that I wanted to do.

• 1:03:29Chris Hauth?

  Right.

• 1:03:29Caroline Burckle?

  Because there was no joy attached to any of it.

• 1:03:32Rich Roll?

  Being overly regimented.

• 1:03:33Chris Hauth?

  That's showing up though. And that's right there.

• 1:03:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:37Chris Hauth?

  That's immersing versus attending. Because when we showed up with that, because we had to.

• 1:03:44Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 1:03:44Chris Hauth?

  We told ourselves with a past story, well, this is just who we are and what we need to do now.

• 1:03:49Caroline Burckle?

  Someone told us that or society or whomever, whatever, that's what we are told.

• 1:03:54Chris Hauth?

  Whereas, you know, you don't tell a writer or an artist or a musician to just show up. They show up with this energy and this passion and this depth that if I'm going to do it, I'm going to show up with all myself.

• 1:04:08Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:08Chris Hauth?

  Right? And they bring this totally different energy to it. And it's immersing versus attending, what I say. Right? You're immersing yourself in the moment versus just attending.

• 1:04:19Caroline Burckle?

  I love that. I'm gonna write on the whiteboard.

• 1:04:21Rich Roll?

  It's also, it's also allowing versus forcing, right? Like, if you contrast that athlete mentality of like willfulness and I'm gonna make it happen and I'm holding on so tightly versus a more creative pursuit. Like, if you watch the Beatles documentary, like, they're hanging out. Like, and a lot of it is fucking around. And that's because you need that in order to create the space for the little spark to arise. Like, you have to hold it loosely in order for the magic to occur. And you can't be, like, strict on your timetable or your agenda. And I think there's something to be said for approaching your athletic pursuits or other pursuits in your life with that sensibility.

• 1:05:06Rich Roll?

  And I think endurance provides you with those quiet moments, like, because you're out. You can't be multitasking when you're out by yourself on a trail or whatever. Like, you're just left with yourself. So it's built in to that practice. But if you're trying to get into grad school or whatever it is that you're pursuing, like, understanding that the best ideas come in the unlike, most unlikely moments. They don't come when you're sitting down and, like, forcing them to happen.

• 1:05:32Chris Hauth?

  Holding on too tight, yeah.

• 1:05:39Caroline Burckle?

  I'm reading this book right now and I circled a couple paragraphs. But it was all about how you have to look out the window for at least 20 minutes a day with zero agenda. Just look out the window. It's like window gazing. But, you know, the whole point of that is to do something mindless and joyful that isn't productive for you to be able to then be productive. And I know it's, we hear it all the time, like, just do something not productive to then be productive. But it's the same thing with sports, right? I, my best races, my best performances were when I was laughing behind the blocks and enjoying myself and with my peers and on a relay or, or doing, you know, almost missing my race as a 15-year-old

• 1:06:23Caroline Burckle?

  because I'm having so much fun in the moment in that joyous state. And I think that, yes, I don't need to be missing races and doing whatever. But the point is, is that you can lose yourself in that experience to really then be able to catapult yourself for... The goal that you want.

• 1:06:40Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Well, it goes back to the alter ego thing. Like, are you like, you're having fun and cracking up and you have your best race? Because you're being who you really are in that moment. And I think we have this idea, like, when I'm training, I'm the Iron Man guy. And then I go to work and I'm the work guy. And I go home and I'm the dad and the partner. And you're toggling between all of these different identities, where you're kind of calibrating how you behave and act and conduct yourself based upon the environment or the circumstance. And this idea of who do you want to be? Or who are you or who are you becoming? If you're driving that inquiry in the right direction, it's about integrating all of these things so that you're authentically who you are, no matter the context, right?

• 1:07:25Rich Roll?

  That you don't have to develop alter egos or, you know, kind of toggle who you are based upon who you're interacting with.

• 1:07:33Chris Hauth?

  And you can definitely use those other versions that can spill over. Like, don't get me wrong, there's a big benefit in being able to craft your athlete self early on and sort of see who you want to become. And then see those things and see how you can apply some of those things in the other versions of yourself. But they can't be completely separate, right? Like Superman is in Clark Kent and Clark Kent is in Superman. Although he goes into the phone booth, right? And that's the whole, like, the deeper part of it. Or like Batman, right? That's the whole point of that entire series, is that you can't escape the shadow that lives within you. And like, you have to integrate those two. Those are two human beings that live within you.

• 1:08:16Chris Hauth?

  And same thing for us as athletes or as amazing professionals. You know, you work 80 hours a week. Well, you can't shut that off when you're with your family. It's part of who you are. So you have to figure out how to sort of integrate those. And again, awareness that who do I want to be when I'm with my kids? Or when I'm with my wife? Or when I'm with my friends? Or when I'm with myself?

• 1:08:44Caroline Burckle?

  No values.

• 1:08:46Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah, and eliminating any of the shoulds. I think we can all just try and get that word out of our vocabulary now because it's not that helpful because it implies that there's an imposition from the world. And I think we could eliminate the shoulds and then rather just see the world as an abundant place where we belong and we are accepted and assume that that will be the case. And probably unfortunately, we'll have some surprises that will hurt us. But that's just a lovely part of life. And I think that when we have those people or things that make it feel hard to continue the course, I've tried to like amuse in those moments as best I can

• 1:09:31Alexi Pappas?

  and understand that not everybody is on our same page or on my page. I don't know. How do you deal with it when you feel like you're doing the right thing towards your goals or you're being your value itself and it's not accepted?

• 1:09:47Chris Hauth?

  It's could instead of should.

• 1:09:50Alexi Pappas?

  Ah, okay.

• 1:09:51Chris Hauth?

  Right, it's who can I be, not who should I be? And again, it's always falling forward. Potential has this amazing energy in it that you can see optimism at all times, right? It's potential to change. It's potential to grow. It's a potential to achieve. And whatever it is, it could be a miniscule little goal or objective. But you have the potential and therefore the energy to achieve it. And that's the beauty of this sort of energy of potential. It allows you. We are the only creatures that can set a future thing, a potential, and then change to become it.

• 1:10:35Alexi Pappas?

  But what if someone doesn't believe in themselves? Because you're saying basically that you should just assume you have the potential. And what if someone is like, I don't think I have it, but I want this thing.

• 1:10:46Chris Hauth?

  Well, you can look, then you look backwards and see where you've come from. Because you've come from something. You've grown from something. You've fallen forward from somewhere.

• 1:10:58Alexi Pappas?

  Or you find someone who's done it in challenging circumstances and you just decide if they, right, like if we can't look up to ourselves, maybe we, maybe that's why we're on this planet together, to look to each other for those permissions.

• 1:11:11Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, and having those conversations with each other, back to the, you know, if you don't believe in yourself, what do you believe about yourself? And usually the opposite of that is the answer.

• 1:11:23Alexi Pappas?

  That's a really good one.

• 1:11:24Caroline Burckle?

  So it's like, I can't do X, Y, Z. Then you flip it and that's the, you know, and it's a practical way to do it. And it's not like, you know, sit down and write it down, but it also is like, at least I do every year, regardless of what month it is, usually not January, because I just try not to do the whole January thing personally. But if it's like June or something, I write down my limitations. Like, I believe these things about myself. I'm not creative enough. I don't have enough time to make art. I don't have the skills to do X, like all of the things that I believe negatively about myself, which is honestly very hard to do.

• 1:12:06Caroline Burckle?

  And it's extremely, like, it's daunting because you don't want to look at yourself in that way. You don't want to admit it, but these are all of the little voices and the gremlins that just continue to tell you these things throughout the year and they build up. And then you flip it and you're able to see, I can believe in myself. It's not easy to get to these places, but what can I do now to put myself? And I think that's part of the path that you describe when you talk about goal setting is like, taking the layers off so that you can then add them back on. But that's at least helpful for me when, when I don't believe in myself, because I think. You know, it's gonna happen. It'll happen forever and ever and ever, even though, deep down innately, I know that I can.

• 1:12:51Caroline Burckle?

  Those are still thoughts. Those are still experiences.

• 1:12:54Rich Roll?

  I think, to some extent, we're all, you know, victims of allowing past beliefs to limit our potential. And, you know, we tend to, you know, gravitate towards past narratives and allow them to dictate outcomes. Well, that happened to me and things don't work out. We create stories around certain events or traumas that occurred in the past, and we assign them deeper meaning than they deserve to have. And that creates a future reality for ourselves. So I think that practice that you described is super important. One thing that I would add to that, like, if you, if you write out, like, "Here are all the kind of negative things that I believe about myself," and you list them out, then I think a powerful exercise is to disprove those by reaching into your memory

• 1:13:39Rich Roll?

  and searching for occurrences or things that you've done or things that have happened that put that to the lie, right? Like, "Oh, I believe that I can't achieve a hard goal." And then, like, list all the things that you actually have achieved or things that disprove that. And I think that creates a really tactile way of crafting a new narrative that allows you to kind of believe in a different story for yourself.

• 1:14:02Alexi Pappas?

  Because you're grounding it. Because a lot of what we feel about ourselves are just like clouds in the sky, and we're trying to like grab them, but they're just like feeling clouds. But what you're saying is like, "Let's pin them down on the ground and like actually look at them and see that they're like a lot less powerful down there."

• 1:14:18Rich Roll?

  Or not, or just plain not true.

• 1:14:20Caroline Burckle?

  Right, they're just absolutely false. And, you know, to everyone's point about community and to what you just said about finding someone to talk to about it. I mean, you do it all the time. You talk to athletes about these kinds of things all the time. It's powerful when someone can remind you and help you see a different angle of the situation. It's like, "Okay, you want to do this? What do you believe? Now, let me remind you about the things that are opposite of those things." Because that's, we all need a little bit of help sometimes, like, it's helpful.

• 1:14:49Rich Roll?

  And some need more than ever.

• 1:14:51Caroline Burckle?

  The old facts, it comes back.

• 1:14:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, some of us are surrounded by people who tell us we're awesome all the time and that we can do whatever we set our mind to. And a lot of people are surrounded by people that are tearing them down constantly, or telling them, you know, they can't do these things, and how dare they dream big for themselves. And who are they to believe that they could go and do this thing? Like, get back to work, be the person that I need you to be, or expect you to be.

• 1:15:14Chris Hauth?

  Or I want you to be.

• 1:15:15Rich Roll?

  Yes, I want you to be.

• 1:15:16Chris Hauth?

  Because you're scaring me with those, with you becoming somebody.

• 1:15:20Rich Roll?

  Sure, because it's very threatening. It's uncomfortable for me. And that comes in a wide spectrum. It can be very subtle, it can be very overt, it can be abusive, but, you know, it's nonetheless pernicious, anyway you slice it. So for somebody who is in that situation where they feel trapped because of their social circumstances, or family, or whatever, it becomes a lot harder to do that. It requires a lot more...

• 1:15:42Alexi Pappas?

  Imagination.

• 1:15:43Rich Roll?

  Great point there.

• 1:15:44Alexi Pappas?

  It requires your imagination, because then you can, and we talked about the word imagination, and how that's going to play and be a secret weapon this year, because you can, if you don't have the people immediately around you boosting you up, I think you still have to figure out how to get that and stay on your own team. And you can adopt, like, satellite mentors, you can listen to audiobooks, and podcasts, and watch things that make you feel the things you want to feel, and then pretend that those people are talking directly to you. Because in this journey to our goals, we have to do what's useful. And the thing I remember, and I have no idea if I told you this, but like, when I had

• 1:16:26Alexi Pappas?

  the post-Olympic depression, I had these awful days, like horrible days, no one could make me feel better, but I had the best dreams. Like, I've never had good dreams, I always have crazy bad dreams. I had the most, like, euphoric dreams. And I told my psychiatrist, psychologist this, I was like, I don't know what to do. My days are the worst, and my dreams are the best, and I never want to wake up. And he was like, alright, well then just pretend your dreams are real. Because like, you made those dreams anyway, and just pretend they're real. And so he basically was like, you have to use your imagination here. And I think for those of us who don't have the support... In the traditional way or in the ways we'd like, there's still no excuse to finding the support that we need, even if it takes imagination.

• 1:17:09Alexi Pappas?

  So just stay, we have to stay on our own team, right? And then a really practical thing that I do is if I'm having a bad day, I've shared this, but my college friend Becca told me that if you're having a bad day, so when I'm having a bad day, I put on my pajamas, get back in bed, or if I'm somewhere else, I just pretend, and just lay and close my eyes for one minute, and then jump out of bed and yell, "New day!" And then I'm allowed to have a new day.

• 1:17:36Chris Hauth?

  I love it. That's a great one. I love it. It's brilliant.

• 1:17:38Alexi Pappas?

  And then you change your outfit.

• 1:17:39Chris Hauth?

  Especially all of us working from home these days. Yeah, I know. If you're working from home, you might as well. Twenty new days a day.

• 1:17:44Alexi Pappas?

  You could do this at like 10 a.m. or at 5 p.m. And like, you're allowed to imagine that this is a new day. Like, what's so arbitrary? The sky is out, you know what I mean? Like, okay, there's no su-

• 1:17:54Rich Roll?

  The moon isn't in the right place.

• 1:17:55Alexi Pappas?

  Whatever, yeah, like, just imagine it's a new day. Like, we have to use our imagination here and not see everything as a reason why we're not gonna get to our goals, but as a reason why we are anyway, you know?

• 1:18:06Chris Hauth?

  And it's back to the fun aspect that Rich was bringing on, right? Enjoy, like, why am I, like, this is supposed to be fun, which a lot of people struggle with, right? Especially they kick out of the new year and they have this, like, this expectation for themselves, and they quickly lose that fun.

• 1:18:23Rich Roll?

  And then it becomes a vicious cycle of just beating yourself up, and it's almost worse, because then you feel like, "Well, I tried and I couldn't do it, and I'm proving that story that I knew deep down was true, that I suck and I can't do hard things."

• 1:18:37Alexi Pappas?

  It's like, you always wanna prove yourself right, but maybe this year, we should all prove ourselves wrong.

• 1:18:42Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, you have to prove your beliefs.

• 1:18:44Alexi Pappas?

  Well, because you're basically saying, I, we are inherently hard on ourselves, and our default setting is to be like, "I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not capable," or this and that. So maybe instead of our heart, because the heart always wants to be right. So you always wanna be like, "See, I will get rejected," or "See, I will fail." And maybe, like, we can allow ourselves to be wrong. And that is really hard for high-achieving athletes, because we wanna be perfect. And part of being perfect is having the thing we feel in our heart, which might be inadequacy, be true. And I feel like something that I'm trying to do is understand that I'm wrong a lot of the times. Like, I mess up. And just last week, I got in a fight with my friend.

• 1:19:27Alexi Pappas?

  I feel so bad because I'm so much older than someone who should get in a fight with a friend. And I was like, felt so bad. And I apologized. And I feel like I said, sorry, and all this stuff. And I wasn't very good at that growing up because we're so stubborn and we just want to be right. And I was like, I was wrong. And it freed me because he accepted my apology and we're totally fine. And it proved to me that I could be wrong and still survive. And I think, I don't know why this, I got to this point, but like, we're wrong a lot of the times. So we shouldn't think that the thing we fear most inside is true.

• 1:20:04Rich Roll?

  I think that's right. And I think there's a lot to be learned from trying to return to a more childlike state in all of this. Because as kids, we're naturally curious. We want to have adventures. We're not afraid.

• 1:20:19Chris Hauth?

  We're not hard on ourselves.

• 1:20:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, yeah, we're not hard on ourselves. We're not being like, fear, insecurity, defeatism, all of these things are learned behaviors that wear us down over time and distance ourselves from like, that kind of pure, beautiful nature that still is within us, but needs a little tarnishing. And I think the more that we can connect with that, whatever goal you set for yourself, it allows you to kind of pursue it with more of that, like, joy and curiosity and imagination.

• 1:20:49Alexi Pappas?

  We're like wildflowers.

• 1:20:51Chris Hauth?

  It's interesting you say that because, you know, a lot of athletes at this time of year, right, you're going into the new year already at your lowest mood. It's dark. It's a hard time of year. The holidays, but also there's no races. I know a lot of my athletes, they struggle at this time of year with motivation. And so. Then you're supposed to create this new thing just because the day changes. The days aren't necessarily long, right? And be all excited about it. So you're already coming in low energy and you're sort of trying to like pump yourself up. And I think that ties into why a lot of people struggle with following through because you already came in with like, ugh, you know, the holiday, holidays are wearing me down.

• 1:21:33Chris Hauth?

  I'm stressed out, I'm tired, I'm exhausted, it's dark, there's no sun. You know, all the things I like to do are, I'm not able to do. And there's been no events, so I don't have that high from, you know, training for something. And so you come into it. So it's a hard time of year already and it turns into this like laborious exercise of like, all right, who do I want to be? Right, right. On top of all of the exhaustion. Exactly, and so that takes the fun and the imagination and the childlike state out of any of it. It's so far removed. So it's figuring out like, how do I emerge into spring with maybe some energy to do the things that I want to do in the early summer or summer?

• 1:22:14Chris Hauth?

  And I'm not starting from scratch, like even just little steps like that saying, okay, how do I want to come out of hibernation, right? Forgive myself for now, yeah, I don't want to train right now. I don't want to work out right now. I don't want to do a lot of stuff. I'm just low energy. It's okay, right? But let's take a longer term approach, like who do I want to be on April 1? So what can I do today gently that'll help me prepare for April 1? Not maybe not January 1 or February 1 because it just puts this pressure on it of like, well, I have to train, I have to do this because it's January. Well, who do I want to be in early summer? I want to run, you know, 100K, let's say on trails in the early summer.

• 1:22:59Chris Hauth?

  Okay, well, so what, okay, let's just figure out then today, maybe this week I'll run 30 minutes three times. It's a start. The start of something and I can at least build some momentum around that because I think we often overlook that we enter a new year already pretty low on energy. Right. It's not like you flip a switch and. Yeah, the sun's out. It's eighty-five degrees. You feel amazing. You're on an island and tanning. Yeah, I mean, it's not like always. Riding the trainer.

• 1:23:26Rich Roll?

  And how do you, how do you differentiate between kind of indulging in that self-care of like, I'm tired and like, I'm just gonna take a break and that's okay. I'm not gonna beat myself up. Versus like, okay dude, come on, you know, you can get out there. Like, don't be, you know, don't be too soft on this, you know?

• 1:23:45Chris Hauth?

  I mean, you wanna set hard dates for that stuff, right? Like, if I'm going to take two weeks off and let go and, or three weeks, well, then I will let go and I will build up the energy. See, I, and I'll finish this thought. I keep running into athletes that don't wanna fully stop so that when they need to restart again, they don't have that hunger, that energy, that bent up like, okay, finally I can get to strength again. I'm like, stop, stop everything. I want you to feel terrible, right? Then kick out and go, okay, finally I can get back into my routine. Finally, I feel good and healthy again. Because, I mean, let's say not six months, but like, let's say two, three, four weeks even, where you say that to yourself and you go,

• 1:24:29Chris Hauth?

  all right, I have to reset completely in order to appreciate, to find the joy again, that when I return, I'm like, oh, I miss this so much.

• 1:24:41Alexi Pappas?

  That is the hardest thing for athletes, though, to really completely pause. And I'm horrible at it. Like, that's why probably after the Olympics, even if I took a week or two off training, which I kind of did, my mind was on the next thing and it was on it yesterday. And I think sometimes we have to be completely knocked off our feet in order to do that. And that's such a shame because at that point, you know, like, I only paused really when I had this surgery. Like, if I'm being really honest, that's the only time I've truly paused completely as an athlete and let myself reset. And that was because I literally could not move off my couch. And that's, that's a problem. And so I think there's two parts to this. Like,

• 1:25:28Alexi Pappas?

  Embracing that we should probably build in like some vocabulary. Um, where there's a chapter after a big peak or before a big buildup. That is a part of chasing that dream and it's completely necessary. Like, um, I, I guess, I think there's more vocabulary now when someone, when a, when a woman gives birth. That there's a, the next semester trimester after is like a more normalized thing. So we should probably build into our vocabulary that that's actually like normal and safe. And it's not a indulgence. It's like necessary. And then also I think about the butterfly thing.

• 1:26:10Alexi Pappas?

  Like I think about how when I was, uh, look, because I still have trouble pausing myself. I was kind of forced to pause at one point, uh, because like a nerve in my back was irritated. Because I didn't pause when I needed to. And I felt like I was completely reduced to like nothing. And my, my mentor told me that when caterpillars become butterflies. They go into their chrysalis and they become liquid glop, like complete liquid. And then they grow into a butterfly. They're not just a caterpillar that sprouts wings. And what was so beautiful about that is I think as athletes, um, and as high achieving people, whatever we are.

• 1:26:51Alexi Pappas?

  When we are reduced to like that pause state, whether you're injured or whether you choose to take a pause. We assume that it's bad and we assume that we would like to put back together whatever we were and we'll get back to it. And what he was basically saying, cause I kept calling myself a hot mess. And he was like, no, you're not a hot mess. You are glop and you're becoming a butterfly. And so I recontextualized it in my mind as that pause, which I wish I had imposed upon myself. Instead of mother nature raining this pain on my back was a natural and good thing. And then I started marching around my house and I was like, I'm glop. I'm glop and I'm going to become a butterfly and I'm glop. And, and, and, and he was like, the difference between humans and caterpillars is that humans have to feel the pain of glop-hood.

• 1:27:36Alexi Pappas?

  So the pain of pausing, that could Be really painful for people or the pain of the actual pain you're in. And caterpillars or humans could choose to try to go back to the caterpillar state and just be what they were. And I may be like leaping on what you say and assuming that the people you're talking to have a lot of trouble being in the chrysalis, in the cocoon. And they don't believe in it and they want to get out of it. And they don't think it's helping them. They think it is a pause and a hurdle rather than a process of moving forward.

• 1:28:08Chris Hauth?

  It's hard to see yourself in the mirror when you're moving. But when you stop, you see yourself in the mirror and you might have to confront some things.

• 1:28:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, terrifying.

• 1:28:18Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:19Chris Hauth?

  But when you're moving, you're always charging and moving forward.

• 1:28:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:22Chris Hauth?

  That.

• 1:28:23Alexi Pappas?

  You're always fine.

• 1:28:24Chris Hauth?

  Exactly.

• 1:28:25Rich Roll?

  Literally.

• 1:28:26Caroline Burckle?

  You said the word safe and that's so real because you're always safe when you're moving forward. Which is interesting because.

• 1:28:32Chris Hauth?

  And it validates you too.

• 1:28:33Caroline Burckle?

  Of what you think.

• 1:28:34Chris Hauth?

  Moving forward. We're back to everything we were saying.

• 1:28:37Caroline Burckle?

  So we inherently feel unsafe.

• 1:28:39Rich Roll?

  Active denial.

• 1:28:40Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah. Yeah. Active denial. I know. I had the same exact situation with my heel. I mean, I didn't see a single thing until I stopped and then reminded me again and I stopped again. And so I think it's it's important to address why we feel unsafe when we are.

• 1:28:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I remember like back in the eighties with swimming, like if you were to take two weeks off. It was like, oh, my God.

• 1:29:05Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:05Rich Roll?

  Two weeks. Like if somebody took a season off, it would be like, well, there's no way they could ever come back.

• 1:29:10Chris Hauth?

  No.

• 1:29:11Rich Roll?

  But it's changing so much. I mean, with, you know, this past year specifically because mental health is such a, you know, topic on everybody's minds. But in the athlete context, you know, what we've seen with Simone Biles and all these other very high profile athletes who are taking a stand for mental health, I think is changing that conversation. I think what you said is is true, Alexi, like this idea of looking at not only building in rest periods as fundamental, as Chris was talking about, but looking at them as part of the growth as opposed to, you know, an obstacle to the goal.

• 1:29:46Alexi Pappas?

  Yes, and relishing in that glop state. That's what I call it. I want a shirt that says it.

• 1:29:52Rich Roll?

  Glop state?

• 1:29:52Alexi Pappas?

  Just glop.

• 1:29:53Rich Roll?

  I mean, in the glop state. Relish your glop state.

• 1:29:55Alexi Pappas?

  But here's the thing though, with Simone Biles and Naomi Osaka's situation, what was so challenging to watch was that. They expressed like a feeling or a sensation or a fear of a sensation, like a fear of pain to come. And they wanted to protect themselves from that. And some people responded really positively. But some people said, where's the MRI? Like, where's the proof? And that is really, really dangerous. Because there's not always gonna be proof on an MRI for a mental health or a physical health injury. And what I've seen over and over again and experienced myself is that when there's not proof of that pain,

• 1:30:39Alexi Pappas?

  simply that we said it needs to be enough. Like, the word needs to have value in and of itself. And I think it's lost its value, at least in my observations of the world. And I hope that this year, people take that word without the MRI and accept it as real. Because otherwise, we're gonna hurt ourselves and we're gonna do that active denial endorsed by society. You know?

• 1:31:04Chris Hauth?

  And throw into that how long it took that athlete, those ladies, to even accept themselves saying it.

• 1:31:13Alexi Pappas?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:31:14Chris Hauth?

  Right, because, so first, you have to accept yourself saying it before even the waterfall of resistance comes at you by others with their expectations for you. But your own expectations and you feeling like you're letting yourself down, like what we were saying, like, brow, you know, and focus, like, and letting go. I mean, that's the world of, again, holding on so tight and then all of a sudden recognizing you've gone way past the point and you should have stopped back there. And that, I think what you're saying, Lexi, is also our ability to remain with listening to our gut, what you call instinct, is like, we know it.

• 1:31:58Chris Hauth?

  We know it's there. And just trusting and believing in it because it always works out for the better. You know, every time I've trusted my gut in my life. As well as when nature comes raining down and does this thing. Afterwards, months, years after, I look back and I say that was the best thing that could have happened to me.

• 1:32:18Alexi Pappas?

  But what if you're like a college girl trying to tell your coach, you're fighting for a spot on the cross country team and you're trying to tell them, my gut feels like this is not great for me or I need to pause. I think we need to equip people with vocabulary that will translate to audiences that might not be ready to hear it. And so I think part of what we're saying here needs to come with like some guidance on like, what words will possibly resonate with the people that need to hear it who don't understand it yet. I know that you're saying that we need to understand it ourselves, but I just think about like a scared 20 year old girl who thinks running this race might not be a good idea,

• 1:33:01Alexi Pappas?

  but doesn't know how to advocate.

• 1:33:05Rich Roll?

  Or if she raises her hand and says that, that she'll just get cut.

• 1:33:08Alexi Pappas?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:33:10Caroline Burckle?

  I think it just goes back to coaches and whomever looking within themselves and actually understanding what it means for themselves, you know? Because I'm just speaking from a perspective of, I think there's resistance maybe to hearing that an athlete isn't okay. It's like, what do you mean you're not okay? I couldn't pass, no, no, you have to be okay, like you have to perform. You know, and so maybe it's just sitting as a coach or as a mentor or as a guide or whomever and to your point earlier as well, looking within yourself and saying, what have I been through that I can then pass on to my athletes? So I think it takes everybody doing the introspection, everybody becoming aware of their own internal experience

• 1:33:54Caroline Burckle?

  to then accept what someone's telling you, what an athlete is telling you.

• 1:33:59Alexi Pappas?

  But I don't know that those coaches are listening to what our conversation is right now. I don't know that people, I'm just being honest that I don't know if the people who really need to hear it are actually listening to this conversation. And I think what I would say to this young girl who is our fictitious person in front of us now, is that like, You return to the common goal. Because I think all the people hearing it need to know is that we all want the same thing. Like, we all want to win the cross-country championships. Do you know what I mean? We all want that. And I think the best thing to get there is to take this race off, or whatever. And I think part of this conversation is when we're trying to rally people onto our New Year's goals, because you don't want to do it despite everybody. It's nice to have people on your same page.

• 1:34:44Alexi Pappas?

  I think it's important to include them as if every decision you're making for yourself is also best for the, for the team, or whatever that team is, a family, a coach. And the only reason I'm saying this is because I feel like a lot of what I, what I hear is like, yes, I want all that for myself, but there's so many barriers in my way. And, and trying to help people do it despite the barriers. Yep. Which might be coaches or someone else. Yeah.

• 1:35:10Chris Hauth?

  I mean, I have two thoughts on that. One, too often, it's about the coaches, and they think it's about me versus the athlete. And it's the accolades the coaches are getting, which then goes up the athletic director, which then goes up to the university, which, right?

• 1:35:23Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:24Chris Hauth?

  And it's never about them. It's about the athlete, right? And so that's a whole culture that I don't think we're going to solve right here. But it's, I always, whenever I see that, I'm always like, it's a coach making it about themselves, because they look good in that arena, or at that race, or in that national championship, when they're winning, right? If you're not listening to your athletes, it's, it's, so that's the ones that, but it's also, what you were just saying with New Year's, it's also back to who you want to be. And when I close my eyes and I visualize who I want to be, that means at that finish line, my family is there and they're supporting me, and they don't think I'm a jerk because of the last 12 weeks or 16 weeks of training.

• 1:36:09Chris Hauth?

  They're actually like, you know what? He did all that training, and he still was present for us. And he was still an effective person at work, and all those things. Too often, again, when we create these alter or split personalities, we push the others away, and we don't realize how they're being affected by us on our self-care, growth, fitness movement. And we need to Think about that prior, especially if it's a curious goal that hasn't been part of our repertoire in the past. Where it's like, guess what, I want to try this thing. It's going to take a lot of training hours and it's going to be running in the mountains for 30 hours. And what do you guys think? And they're going to be like, what?

• 1:36:54Chris Hauth?

  And how many, but it's, okay, I'm thinking about that. And this is what I want to do next summer. And how can we include this? And how can we all work on this together? And how, and these are the values again, the boundaries I'm going to create myself for myself. The lane I'm going to stay in and I'm not going to compromise and cross over when push comes to shove. Because I talked to you guys here on January 6th or January 20th. And I said, I'm not going to miss a soccer game. I'm not going to turn down those projects to work just because I want to do it. I'm going to do it despite that. It's back to maximizing the limited training time we have, staying with who we want to be. And that's the challenge. We come from a professional athlete background.

• 1:37:39Chris Hauth?

  But for all those people who have a job, who have a family, who have a career, who have a soccer game, who have church, who have community. It's like, well, come on, Chris, how am I going to fit this in? Well, that's what makes you special. That's what makes this endeavor so amazing is that despite it all, you found those 45 minutes a day. And you might say 45 minutes a day, that's not enough to do this stuff. Well, guess what, 45 minutes a day for many months, it'll get you pretty close to doing what you can. It might not be to the best of your potential. You might think you can run Boston in, you know, 345 or 245 and you might only do 415. But guess what? You didn't compromise your values along the way.

• 1:38:22Chris Hauth?

  Your family's there cheering on, supporting you and they're actually like, that was amazing. Let's do it again and try for 345 versus that 345 attempt was awful. And

• 1:38:32Alexi Pappas?

  So maybe potential then is not an isolated thing that has only to do with your actual body and genes. Potential is seeing yourself as a whole person and seeing where you can go, given all that you have chosen in your life. Or that has been put on you in your life, like your circumstances that you can't choose and that you might not have chosen. And so maybe when we think about potential and we get back to, what if you don't believe in yourself? It's like, well, there's no problem with believing in yourself if you understand where, who you are and where you come from and what your values are and that you chasing that time goal comes with a lot of choices that you've made.

• 1:39:14Alexi Pappas?

  And that's probably the more appropriate way to look at potential then.

• 1:39:18Chris Hauth?

  Yep.

• 1:39:19Alexi Pappas?

  Right? Instead of just like a human creep, you know?

• 1:39:21Chris Hauth?

  It is, it is an energy. It is all those things that you just said, combined with curiosity and joy and just, it's a, it's a life force. Because it constantly keeps us going forward in belief.

• 1:39:34Rich Roll?

  I want to switch gears a little bit. Chris, you mentioned earlier the idea of athletes being frustrated during that period of time off and really wanting to get back into their routine, right? So let's talk a little bit about routine versus ritual.

• 1:39:51Chris Hauth?

  Ah, I love this one.

• 1:39:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:55Chris Hauth?

  Well, it's just, again, it's adding that human element to what you're doing. Routine means something that you have to do it. You're supposed to do it. You said you would do it. But adding a human element of meaning and purpose and emotion to it turns it into what I would call a ritual, right? Adding that human element to it so that it means something to you, so that you're not just showing up, you're showing up with intention and with care. Again, like an artist doesn't just show up. They do things out of ritual because they have an emotion and a human aspect attached to it.

• 1:40:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The idea of routine kind of implies showing up without intention, like, well, this is my thing. I just do this thing without really thinking about it. I'm checking the box. Right? And ritual, there's like something sacred about that. Like there's something

• 1:40:47Chris Hauth?

  Just in the word.

• 1:40:47Rich Roll?

  Beautiful and like reverential about it. Like your relationship to the thing has meaning. And it just, there's a depth to it, right? And I love how like, kind of like, just outside of this is that whole idea. Like I know you have a whole thing about showing up, right? Like this time here, everyone's like, it's all about showing up. Just like, just keep showing up. Keep showing up. Chris is like shaking his head over there.

• 1:41:12Chris Hauth?

  My head exploded.

• 1:41:13Alexi Pappas?

  Why is he so upset?

• 1:41:15Chris Hauth?

  Because it just, to me, showing up is disrespecting everything. It's disrespecting yourself because you're putting your limited training time to this by just showing up. It adds, you know, all the other stressors to it that you, usually when you show up, you also are thinking, well, I should probably be at my work right now. Or I probably should be doing this right now. But you know what? Here I am, the bare minimum. No, but there's no value in the bare minimum. Right? And so this showing up, you have an opportunity. Again, it's a choice, right? We choose to go there. And so instead of just showing up, the choice process says to me, let me then do it with intention.

• 1:41:58Chris Hauth?

  Let me have an outcome I want to achieve versus getting there and figuring it out. I believe motivation runs out very quickly when you just do things by showing up. Because there's only so many times you can show up at the track or on a bike or swimming or in the gym and go, hmm, what should I do today? That's showing up. Like, hey, I went to the gym. What'd you do? I did a little Stairmaster. I did a little this or whatever that escalator is that keeps going forever. Like, yeah, I got a sweat going. Well, in four weeks from now, you're still going to be saying, ah, I don't know if I'm getting better. Whereas intention and clarity on why you're showing up and how it means something to you with some depth and character means I'm putting myself out there.

• 1:42:43Chris Hauth?

  I want to know how much I improved by this time and how am I going to improve by this time? I'm going to do, take these steps.

• 1:42:50Alexi Pappas?

  Commitment. Yeah. And well, first of all, the word ritual, it sounds like ritual. It really does. What we really want is ritual. We just, we don't want routine. We want ritual. But, okay, so how do we then, um, cause I feel like people are like, what do I, how do you make it from a routine to a ritual? And to a ritual? And I keep thinking about like, uh, rock climbing, which I don't do often, and I really want to try more of, like indoor rock climbing. There are different rocks that you grab and they all look different. And you have to assess the rock you're about to grab in a different way than the one that you're leaving from before. And I feel like rather than thinking about ourselves as like climbing up a ladder where it's like, you could kind of do that with your eyes closed.

• 1:43:35Alexi Pappas?

  You just like get to the next ladder rung. The rock climbing requires a little bit of a shift between activities. And so perhaps in our lives, we can turn it into a ritual if we take a moment between activities, um, and think about what we want out of the next one. And I try to do that, like when I'm going from practice to home life, for example, because what if practice didn't go great? I don't want to bring that home and just be whatever in my home that I was.

• 1:44:08Chris Hauth?

  So that's, you're, you're capturing it. Right.

• 1:44:10Alexi Pappas?

  Okay.

• 1:44:10Chris Hauth?

  So ritual and.

• 1:44:12Alexi Pappas?

  Am I messing up?

• 1:44:13Chris Hauth?

  No, no, you're not messing up. This is a good, this is a good.

• 1:44:15Alexi Pappas?

  Okay.

• 1:44:15Chris Hauth?

  It's because you care and you coming home to your home life and showing that I care. You know what? I didn't do well today. I had an awful day at work. I got yelled at or I totally messed up this project or I had a terrible workout today. It shows your family, your loved ones, your friends, that you care, that you're not going through the motions, routine, but that you care. There's emotion, there's depth along with that. If I pass a TP and there's a ceremony going on in there and it doesn't mean anything to me, it's just a TP with some smoke coming out of it. But knowing that there's a ritual going on there, that's something I'm curious about. There's, there's emotion and there's people transforming and growth and there's love and care and all that in there.

• 1:44:59Chris Hauth?

  That's, that's depth, right? And so I want you to show that care to others and show people that, yeah, you know what? It's my endeavor, but it means something to me. And that's why I show up with intention because I care. It means something to me, right? Even just your ability, once again, I keep talking about maximizing limited, limited training time because most of us don't have time while we went pro in something other than what we're endeavoring. And so. Even just the mental framing of how you want to go through this workout, right? It allows you to learn so much quicker, so much faster, because you have an image on how you want to execute this workout, how, what you want to achieve.

• 1:45:44Chris Hauth?

  And then, when you're in the motions of doing it and you're not achieving it, your learning speeds up dramatically while you're doing it, because you're not meeting your own avatar on how you thought it would go. Well, what am I missing? Where are my blind spots? What do I need to adjust? Swimming, you know, your stroke, you're making subtle adjustments and so forth. Running, same thing, stride, body and posture, and how am I landing? Because you, you, again, you framed it with an outcome and how I want to feel and what this means to me. It all is so deep where that all is coming from. I want to throw the chips on the table and, and make it myself vulnerable in saying, I, yeah, I have this outcome I want to achieve. It means something to me. Why it means something to you?

• 1:46:28Chris Hauth?

  Different story, it could be, you know, whether it's validation, whether it's a part of your deeper purpose, whether it's a bet, doesn't matter. But I care. I want everybody to know I care.

• 1:46:40Alexi Pappas?

  What if you encounter people like who have different values than you? Like, can you still be friends with them? I know that. Wait, you're laughing at me, but sometimes it's really hard because you could spend time with someone. I have friends who like, I can't not be around them because I never know what they're going to say or do. And their values are completely different than mine. And we often butt heads because what I would choose for us to do is totally different than what they would choose. And often we'll be at odds with what we should be doing. And I, like, I love this person, these people as friends. And I'm just trying to figure all that out because our values are really different. And I don't want to not spend time with these people.

• 1:47:22Chris Hauth?

  But that's the beauty of life right there. You just defined what living in our society is. If we're all the same, it would be pretty boring. But the fact that people have different values and different narrative and different stories and different backgrounds, that's what makes them them and makes us recognize the nuances of the beauty of human interaction. Like if they, if I'm only around people that agree with me and like, yeah, all think the same.

• 1:47:49Rich Roll?

  Everybody has different values than you. There's only one you. And your value system might match up significantly with a bunch of people, but it's not exactly the same. So if you just look at it like nobody's values are exactly like mine. Everybody's are different.

• 1:48:04Caroline Burckle?

  And we learn about our own values from the differences in someone else's values, too. So you can get clearer on your own, which probably has happened, maybe.

• 1:48:14Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah, it does.

• 1:48:15Caroline Burckle?

  You get so clear just by not.

• 1:48:17Alexi Pappas?

  But it often feels like there's like a right or a wrong or something. And I think part of this is like unlearning or teaching myself and everybody knowing that there's not like a right or a wrong value, I guess, as long as you're not hurting anybody, right? And it's just, they're just different. Like, for example, I think maybe I, I don't know if I told you this, Rich, but my, one of my close friends is German and we went to college together. And she said that, this was in Oregon. She was like an NCAA champion, like excellent athlete, excellent. And she was the only German person in our whole community. And she had eccentricities to her choices and the way she did things. And she said she felt completely free

• 1:49:01Alexi Pappas?

  because everybody just assumed it was because she was German. They're like, it's because it must be a German thing. Like, she doesn't like, she puts, you know, this with peanut butter, it's because she's German. It must be German. And she said she was basically free to have whatever values she wanted because they were like, it must be a German thing. And she said that that's actually unique all across Europe because there's so many countries that are touching each other and they interact way more than like an American might interact like direct. There's just a lot more fluidity there. And so there's, she said there's a lot more openness there because people just assume if someone's different, it might be cultural, it might be. And here, she said what she experienced was that besides her in the United States, there was a lot of judgment on most people based on their values

• 1:49:45Alexi Pappas?

  because they couldn't be like, they're just German. And I don't know why I brought that up in this goal-setting conversation, but it felt like. Interesting to say. I don't know. I'm just saying we need, I'm trying to learn how to be around people with different values because I've been in these training groups for so long where everybody has same values. I think that's what it is. And now I moved to LA and everybody is a complete different person. And I love it here and I love running here and I love running with people with different values, but it has been an adjustment.

• 1:50:14Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, I mean, we've come out of bubbles, right? We lived in such a compartmentalized bubble for so long.

• 1:50:21Caroline Burckle?

  Wild to think about, actually.

• 1:50:22Chris Hauth?

  I mean, for me, it's a lot further removed than that.

• 1:50:25Caroline Burckle?

  But it feels so real.

• 1:50:27Chris Hauth?

  But I remember, I can, what do you mean you don't think like that?

• 1:50:32Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:33Chris Hauth?

  My head would start getting a little...

• 1:50:34Caroline Burckle?

  It's like that group thing too. Yeah. I mean, on my, at Florida, it's like, it's such a pack. It's like everyone's the same.

• 1:50:42Alexi Pappas?

  It's so safe.

• 1:50:43Caroline Burckle?

  When, yes, it's so safe. And then when you, you know, move on out into the world and you have this new permission or freedom to think how I want to think and do what I want to do. It's like you're grasping on to these routines or these things that you did all the time that were so familiar to you. And so it's like carving a new meaning into everything that you do all over again. At least that was my experience.

• 1:51:08Chris Hauth?

  Which is the flip side of the athlete self that we're talking about, right? Like with the alter ego. We lived that and then all of a sudden, we had to allow all these other versions of ourselves to start coming online.

• 1:51:18Caroline Burckle?

  And it can be overwhelming, yeah.

• 1:51:19Chris Hauth?

  And for all our life, we're like, I'm defined as an athlete. Yeah. I'm defined and this. And now... And those other areas are generally underdeveloped. Exactly.

• 1:51:29Caroline Burckle?

  Okay, so I was listening to a podcast, I don't remember which one it was, and I think I just posted about this too, but Lenny Kravitz said, you know, every avenue plays into one another. And it was so simple, but maybe it was the way he said it and it was like super swanky and whatever. But I was like...

• 1:51:45Chris Hauth?

  And it's Lenny Kravitz.

• 1:51:46Caroline Burckle?

  That is, yeah, it's Lenny. I mean, come on. But he was talking about his home that he has built that is just beautiful and whatever. And it was so eye-opening to me that everything can be... Connected to, you know, like our identities can all have this meaning that can be connected to one another and they can all come together and they can all serve a purpose. Yes, you can compartmentalize them for the job that needs to get done or whatever you need to do, but we really are, like you were saying, this whole person, this whole experience that all converges together, that actually, if you really pause again and look at it, the values all play into every part of your life and they can all come into alignment.

• 1:52:29Caroline Burckle?

  It is possible. You don't have to be so strict with that bubble and not have anything else that could possibly be joyful or that you could experience or have. I could go on about that.

• 1:52:41Chris Hauth?

  My kids are so tired of me saying, you know, watching that movie Inside Out because I love that depiction of all those little characters that play out a role. And my kids are like, no, we're not watching it again. I'm like, no, actually, that can help us in this situation you're struggling with.

• 1:53:01Chris Hauth?

  But that's so true and they come online. But all our lives, right? We've been keeping those other characters like not needed right now, not needed. You're offline, go to sleep. Just athlete and a few others that help along are online right now, but the rest of it. But yeah, they're all there at all times.

• 1:53:19Caroline Burckle?

  And it doesn't mean you're a hot mess or anything like that because I've had the same feelings like, oh, but I want to do this and I want to do this and I have all these things. It's like, but they're, they can all work together. You can use your values for all of them at the specific time you want to use them, whether it's being an artist or running a business or swimming or, you know, going, doing this. It's like, they can all work. And I think we are so quick to trap ourselves when we goal set or when we want to create some sort of exciting thing in our life to be like, well, it has to just be this one thing and I have to be so zoned in and there's nothing else that I can possibly do.

• 1:53:56Chris Hauth?

  Have we answered anything?

• 1:53:57Rich Roll?

  No, I know, this is saying like, yeah, like, I don't know where we're headed. I do want to say, to kind of bring it back to the showing up thing. I think there are moments where just showing up is a fine thing. Like, it sits on a spectrum, right? Obviously, you want to show up with all of your intentionality and to indulge that ritual with, you know, the highest level of attention and all of that. But some days, if faced with the choice of like, not going at all or just showing up, like, showing up, you show up. You show up, you're there. Maybe it's rough and you don't want to be there, but then, within the first 15 minutes, you're warming up, and then you can set that intention and you can create something productive out of it.

• 1:54:41Rich Roll?

  So I think it has its place, but it's like the floor, not the ceiling, right? It shouldn't be the thing that we're putting all of our attention on.

• 1:54:49Alexi Pappas?

  I couldn't agree more, because like, if you like, are having a mental health struggle and you need to just be doing the actions that will eventually lead to the thoughts and then to the feelings, all you can expect of yourself is to show up and do the actions and suspend the thoughtfulness, because your thoughts are not on your side sometimes. And I think sometimes we have to ignore our thoughts or see them as kind of a crying child in the grocery store. Like, this is just the visual I've always had of you have to, sometimes, I think, mindlessly show up to the task. But of course, like, Rich, you said, the North Star would be to be able to be mindful and have everything aligned, that is the North Star.

• 1:55:30Alexi Pappas?

  But if somebody's unable to really be in that euphoric, that ritual state, I think routine can be the way to ritual as well. And sometimes it has to be. Like, we have to just start putting that foot in front of the other.

• 1:55:48Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, I mean, infrastructure is different to me, because I call that more infrastructure. Like, okay, I know on Tuesdays I have a swim, right? And, you know, I might not show up with the intention and all that higher purpose that I usually do, but today I just showed up. But even that, back to awareness, even that moment of saying, okay, let me just reset. What do I want to get out of this? I'm here. That already, you just gave yourself an opportunity to improve so much more and not even improve versus in a comparison aspect, but you're going to feel better about yourself

• 1:56:28Chris Hauth?

  and about your growth and about your potential because you recognized that moment. And you said, you know what, I'm here. Okay. All right. Without looking at all the equipment or out thinking about who's at the workout today, or who's at the pool and what I'm going to have to swim against. It's about, all right, what do I want to get out of today? And then going, all right, you know, and that joy, that dopamine hit of completely successfully having done that is so powerful because it opens up the mind and creativity for the rest of the workout for you to overachieve on what you had shown up with in the first place. And that creates the momentum into the new year.

• 1:57:09Alexi Pappas?

  You're basically just asking yourself to try your best, not be the best.

• 1:57:14Chris Hauth?

  Correct.

• 1:57:15Alexi Pappas?

  And sometimes all we can do is just show up and try our best. And maybe it's giving a hundred percent of like a not completely present person, but you're still trying your best.

• 1:57:27Chris Hauth?

  No, but I also tie that into, and I agree with you, but I also tie that into, and I don't know if we talked about this last time, that there's times when you just can't even make it to the pool or the gym or so forth, that you forgive yourself and say, okay, now I'm at, I'm stuck at work, but you know what? I'm not just going to stand here and go through the motions. I'm stuck here at work. I'm going to give it, do my best here. Because if I can't go swim, or if I can't go run, or if I can't go to the gym, I might as well make this work so that then I'm fully present in this intentionality of executing what I'm currently doing, present in the moment, so that again, I get that satisfaction

• 1:58:07Chris Hauth?

  of, okay, I didn't get to do what I wanted to do, but I made it count instead.

• 1:58:13Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:14Rich Roll?

  That's an important one. You know, I know that I find myself like if I'm in a work thing and I'm like, I should be working out. Or if I'm working out, I'm like, I should be at work right now. Wherever I am, I'm thinking about like,

• 1:58:26Rich Roll?

  thinking about like the other place that I'm judging myself against not measuring up in some other bucket, you know, while I'm doing, rather than being like fully present for the thing that I'm doing.

• 1:58:37Alexi Pappas?

  Totally, totally. And that will, I think that begins to dissolve when we do see ourselves as like not the octopus, but as like everything is in the same value direction. Where like, well, at that moment, even if your value was to like stay fit and you're at work, you know that you had committed prior to being someone who works and tries to work out. And right now, you're working more than you anticipated, but it's like, it is still you doing it. And I think to your question earlier about like, how do you negotiate the future self with the present self? I think we should always, or should is out of my vocabulary.

• 1:59:18Alexi Pappas?

  We might always consider doing something now that our later self will know why this all happened. So like if we have an injury and we can't go to a particular competition, or if we are at work and we can't work out, to make the most of that situation, like you said. And therefore, our later self will know why that whole hurdle happened in the first place. Basically, we are always, our mindset is that we will always win. Or that's how I think about it. It's like, I will always win this. And I know that's maybe not the right word to use, but always figure out a way why this happened.

• 1:59:55Chris Hauth?

  I call forgiving. I mean, for me, that's what forgiving is.

• 1:59:58Alexi Pappas?

  And you're like forgiving.

• 2:00:00Chris Hauth?

  Because forgiving takes the judgment out of it. And to me, judgment is ego, and ego is just self-interest. It's like this annoying voice. It's one of the people in the Inside Out movie. That, you know, that just wants to bicker and throw in like this ego component with judgment. And it's like, there's no reason for it. It's fine. Life gets in the way. That's why working out or training or a beautiful long run, you have like these awe inspiring moments where all this positive energy flowing through you. Why? Because you know what it could be like when you missed it. And if you didn't miss it, it would just be routine again, running every day.

• 2:00:42Chris Hauth?

  But because you have those highs and lows, because you're, there's days you're a one, or not a one hopefully, but like a two or a three. And then there's other days you're a seven or an eight or even a nine. That fluctuation, that's where it's like, okay, that, this is fun. Because I understand what a two is.

• 2:00:59Alexi Pappas?

  Maybe then we need to think about these unexpected life getting in the way things, like the weather, where like you wouldn't get mad, like really deeply personally, if it just started snowing and you couldn't do your workout or whatever. So maybe we need to like, think about them less personally and a little bit more like, natural.

• 2:01:18Rich Roll?

  No, that's a great point. We feel like we have some level of control over those things. And so when we don't exercise that control effectively, then it leads to that self judgment. But I think the, you said something a minute ago, Alexi, that I think is really great, which is this idea of the present self being in a negotiation with the future self. And that's really all this is. Like if you think of it, like we're constantly negotiating with our future self. So it's not about like, am I moving towards my goal? It's, well, what does the negotiation look like today? Like maybe my future self has a little bit of a stronger position today. And on other days, you know, things tip towards the present self, being in a place of manipulating the future self.

• 2:02:02Rich Roll?

  You know, like, I think that's a really cool way of looking at it.

• 2:02:05Chris Hauth?

  And that tension of back and forth is potential. Because the present self knows it can get in some way, like you said, deep down inside, it knows in some way it can get to the future self. It's just that that path might be bumpy.

• 2:02:19Alexi Pappas?

  Do you think that's why we take so many pictures? Because we want like our future self to be like, see, like this is why we did it. Like, you know, so like if you're, is that why we take pictures?

• 2:02:30Caroline Burckle?

  It is in many ways.

• 2:02:32Alexi Pappas?

  Taking so many pictures?

• 2:02:33Caroline Burckle?

  I mean, hey, that's what pictures, that's what they do, you know, they do, they negotiate. Like you're thinking about the future.

• 2:02:40Chris Hauth?

  But that also brings up a good point that we talked about for New Year's is that it's also important in that exercise to look back. To see where you came from this year and how you grew. Because it does give you, when you sort of have a fixed mindset, sort of more like, you know what? I did accomplish a lot this last year. And although there's a pandemic and although all these things and all the no's, I didn't or I can't. You, once again, you go through that as you're sort of working through, well, what will next year bring? We don't have control over that or answers to that. But we can sort of see, wow, all those things happened last year. Well, let me dream. Let me hope. Let me potential forward.

• 2:03:22Alexi Pappas?

  And when we do look back, we have to know that that person who made those decisions at that time was trying their best.

• 2:03:30Caroline Burckle?

  Acceptance of that.

• 2:03:31Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah, like we have to adore our past selves, not resent our past selves. Because I think we are all tryharders. If we're sitting here at this table or listening, we're probably people who want to try our best, I think. And so when we look back, I think we have to have the kindness to know that that person is different than me. And she or he or who, they are trying their best. And that's important.

• 2:03:57Chris Hauth?

  Same as you want your future self to forgive you for, or be gentle with you on that present self. That present self is, was once your future self or your past self. I mean, it's all.

• 2:04:10Alexi Pappas?

  Mind blown.

• 2:04:15Rich Roll?

  All right, well, we gotta land this plane, but let's, let's bring it back to a way of like really crystallizing this process. I mean, Chris, you talk about starting with the North Star, which is this idea of the why and, you know, built into that is this inquiry around, you know, your values and this person that you want to become. That with clarity there, then you attune to the plan, right? Like, what is the process, like the tactics and the strategies and the day to day? Or not the day to day, right? Like, just the overall structure of the whole thing. And then you show up in the moment with intention when you approach those daily actions.

• 2:04:57Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, I, I see purpose and deeper why and, you know, that North Star as far out there. And you're looking over landscape and terrain on how to get there. That's the clarity, that's the plan, that's sort of the map to get you to geography. And that sort of has the workouts, the, you know, all the things along the way, whether it's in a career path or it's in a athletic path or in a personal path, sort of how to get there. It's not a rigid line, it can't be a rigid line, because then there's failures along the way, which is why I don't use goals, because if you miss them, it's not black and white. It's a, but you're heading in the right direction. And then the baby steps in that direction are intentions on how I show up every day.

• 2:05:42Chris Hauth?

  And ever so gently, I'm moving towards that way off North Star. And so part of what I say with that is that once you set your purpose and deeper why and North Star, that energy that you feel like I have, I'm capable of that, because that's why I wrote it down, that's why I went through the process, that's why I have this excitement around it, that's potential. That is that energy of potential. And that creates that path for you, because now you're excited to figure out, hopefully excited to figure out how to get there, start heading down that path towards that North Star. And then it trickles into daily intentions.

• 2:06:27Rich Roll?

  Beautiful, man. Caroline broke out the whiteboard, so I don't know what's happening.

• 2:06:31Alexi Pappas?

  This is gonna be so wild. What you got going over there? This is potential. She's got that good teacher handwriting.

• 2:06:40Chris Hauth?

  Oh, look at that.

• 2:06:40Alexi Pappas?

  That you can barely read. You know what I mean?

• 2:06:42Caroline Burckle?

  What's this before the star?

• 2:06:45Chris Hauth?

  Those are goals and objectives along the way to validate that you're on the path towards your North Star. And that's the important thing, too, to not overlook that you can't shift the goalposts on those objectives and goals.

• 2:06:58Caroline Burckle?

  You love a good visual.

• 2:06:59Alexi Pappas?

  Could you translate all the words, though?

• 2:07:01Rich Roll?

  She's holding it up to the camera.

• 2:07:02Chris Hauth?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:07:03Alexi Pappas?

  So what's this one?

• 2:07:04Chris Hauth?

  That's the Y.

• 2:07:05Alexi Pappas?

  So if you start there.

• 2:07:06Rich Roll?

  The Y leads to the plan.

• 2:07:08Chris Hauth?

  And potential is the intentions as you're heading towards those goals. Because the potential returns back into the plan.

• 2:07:16Alexi Pappas?

  And that's the North Star.

• 2:07:17Rich Roll?

  The North Star is in the southeast corner.

• 2:07:23Caroline Burckle?

  Look, we do things backwards around here.

• 2:07:24Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah, it's great.

• 2:07:26Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, but a lot of people shift the goalposts once they're on a path. And that's the other thing, too, that brings in that judgment piece where it's like, well, now that I'm going to, well, now I want to achieve this. You have to celebrate the wins along the way in order to see how you're actualizing that sort of clear path. Because I find this all the time, that once athletes, once people start moving along the path towards their goals, they're like, well, now that I'm doing this, I should be able to achieve this.

• 2:07:57Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:57Chris Hauth?

  Right? They're shifting the goalposts. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Wait, let's first celebrate that one really effectively. Let's get that win. And then, let's take that downtime after.

• 2:08:09Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:09Chris Hauth?

  Breathe, exhale, recalibrate, look at our values, because my values sure have changed over the last few years, over the last decades. And then, look at the next goalpost that you were considering, but is that still there? Post-win, post-insights, post-learning, and value alignment.

• 2:08:29Alexi Pappas?

  So instead of rest and relaxation, which is also important, we have relishing and recovering in between these big peaks. And the relishing sounds like something in your experience, and I think in all of ours, that you have to build in as like a conscious thing.

• 2:08:44Chris Hauth?

  For sure.

• 2:08:45Alexi Pappas?

  We're not just going to give ourselves those little joys.

• 2:08:48Rich Roll?

  I think that's part of also not being reactive in your goal-setting. I know Chris doesn't like that word, but in whatever intentions you're setting for yourself, because... With the accomplishment or progress or growth that has occurred, that's going to affect your values. It's going to affect where you want to invest that energy. And I think you need to pause to really ponder that and figure out how to then use that elevated self in the best way. So an example would be, you know, my goal was to qualify for the Kona Ironman. Okay, so you do that and you're there and you have a good race.

• 2:09:28Rich Roll?

  And if you don't pause and reflect upon how perhaps you have grown and changed as a result of that journey, you might just set the goal of like, well, I'm going to come back next year and be five minutes faster and five minutes faster. And you'll spend the next 10 years just getting incrementally faster at triathlon when maybe this new person who sees potential differently and has a sense of, you know, agency that maybe they didn't have before could invest that in something else in their life that needs development or might excite them that has nothing to do with the goal that they have just achieved.

• 2:10:05Alexi Pappas?

  Well, and with endurance athletes, it's, there's a compulsion to like sign up for the next race, like before we've even run one or like or raced one or whatever type of endurance you're doing. And I think that was something that I had to, I had to stop myself because when I knew I wasn't race racing New York hard, I was like, sign me up for Boston. I need a narrative for myself and the world about what's happening next. And that has been my MO for so many years because we're so used to these, just putting it out there. And I think what you're saying is before you sign up for the next goal, recalibrate or check in on these values to see, is that the appropriate goal? Which brings us full circle to what you said in the beginning, that if we don't do that, we might chase the wrong goal.

• 2:10:50Chris Hauth?

  And also, I mean, important there is what you were saying, check in. But that's where I would also like, and I always encourage my athletes, well, check in with your family. How'd you do? How was that journey with them? Because you need them and their support to continue this endurance endeavor big time. It just doesn't work without them being a part of it, or at least being heard, or knowing that, you know what? I didn't burn any bridges. Signing up for the next event without checking in with them turns it into, uh-oh, why is dad doing 10 hours of yard work? He must have signed up for another.

• 2:11:30Chris Hauth?

  Gophy or something like that, right?

• 2:11:33Chris Hauth?

  And so those are things that are important with that. Like, how did I do on my, let's say, athlete mission statement up until now? Did I stick to the values and the things that were important to me? Did I compromise anything? And how can I do this better next time? While still enjoying myself and achieving these amazing outcomes that I was looking for.

• 2:11:51Rich Roll?

  All right, you guys.

• 2:11:53Alexi Pappas?

  To the new year!

• 2:11:55Rich Roll?

  Final thoughts, wrap up?

• 2:11:59Caroline Burckle?

  I just think this is an important conversation because I personally think a lot of people don't know where to start with it. So hopefully, we can have addressed some questions, if any. And there's no perfect way, I think, is what I took from this. There's no one-size-fits-all. Everyone has a different way of setting goals.

• 2:12:24Alexi Pappas?

  I had like a little epiphany recently about goal chasing that I will share because I think it would have been nice to know like 10 years ago or something, which is that I feel like we can fixate. Look, we've been through this. You could fixate on the goal itself. And it's hard to be told, enjoy the journey. It just, those platitudes never spoke to me. Like, if anyone said anything that I felt was a platitude, I was like, eh, whatever.

• 2:12:52Alexi Pappas?

  But I was recently...

• 2:12:55Alexi Pappas?

  I'll admit it. I auditioned for SNL and I, in the process, it was a goal of mine ever since I was young because I love that stuff. And I had the most fun I've ever had in my life putting together my audition. You know, I did that. And I would go to bed every night really so happy and then so sad because I wanted it to last forever. Like, I wanted to get it so that I could do that forever. And I was sad that I might not be able to do something that made me so happy forever. And I was really, I had this epiphany then where I was like, wait a minute. Whether I get the goal or not, the goal that it was not up to me, you know, it's not up to me.

• 2:13:36Alexi Pappas?

  Sometimes these goals are not up to us. The steps that I'm taking along the way are the same. Like, I was pursuing it with integrity. I was trying my best. I was in it as if the same, if you get it or not. And I realized that when we're chasing a dream, if we are pursuing it fully committed or ritualizing it, all the words, you are in the dream while you are chasing it. And I think so often we think that we are only getting the dream once we actually get it. But most of the time is that lead up and we should allow ourselves to really enjoy the process. And again, if someone said, enjoy the journey, I would have been like, that's not, means nothing to me. But I, once I realized that every day I was showing up to put that audition together

• 2:14:21Alexi Pappas?

  and I didn't get it, like, I might keep trying. Some people don't get it the first time. But it doesn't matter because I was so happy in that process of fully committing and doing it. And I want to pursue my goals moving forward like that instead of the person who's obsessing over the, only the result. And so I hope that helps anyone who like, felt similarly skeptical about that thing.

• 2:14:46Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, there's that quote of it's not a question of the outcome of the goal. It's who you become in the process of giving it all you have in order to get the goal. So that's sort of a way of saying it's about the journey, which you also sort of said. Yeah, you're definitely saying that.

• 2:15:04Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah, no, I am saying it, but I'm saying if you if you don't resonate with one platitude, like some people, if it doesn't resonate with you, it might never resonate in those words. Like, maybe you heard it from the wrong person, like your second grade teacher, and you didn't like that person. But if you try and find other ways into these platitudes are real and they have meaning. But sometimes those words are a blur because you've heard them from the wrong people. You've heard them too many times or you've seen them on Instagram. And there's always another way to look at a platitude that hopefully makes it true for you. So it's OK if one doesn't resonate with you, we can find another way in. So yeah, I get it. I believe in it. Enjoy the journey. But I needed to like, learn it in a different way, I think.

• 2:15:48Caroline Burckle?

  Or just visualize it, too. No words needed. At least that's my, I mean, I agree, different ways.

• 2:15:55Chris Hauth?

  You know, for me, it's what I've been saying. It's who do you want to be? And I think it's a daily exercise. It's a monthly exercise. It's a yearly exercise that you can go short term, long term. Because it's just a constant reminder of what my actions are in this current moment. Who do I want to be? Who do I want to be when I walk out that door today? Who do I want to be when I show up at this workout today? Who do I want to be in April when spring happens? Who do I want to be this summer for these events I signed up for? Who do I want to be in for my kids? Who do I want? Who do I want to be and be with a capital B E, which you guys saw me write you guys about? Because being is acting.

• 2:16:38Chris Hauth?

  It's an action, being. And so that's sort of you're constantly thinking, or this is what I believe in and I do and I try to every day is who do I want to be? Who did I want to be coming to talk to you today? Right? And although it's constantly that awareness of reflecting for a moment of, what do I want to do now? And I believe that so many. Things can be answered for anybody if they take a moment and ask, who do I want to be when I do this presentation? When I take this action? When I come home from work tonight? When I go to the gym today?

• 2:17:17Alexi Pappas?

  I now understand the difference between asking yourself, who am I and who do I want to be? And I didn't get it until just now. Which is the who I want to, who do I want to be? Gives yourself the generosity of believing there is potential there. Whereas who am I can be a really hard question, right?

• 2:17:33Rich Roll?

  It's a dense one, yeah.

• 2:17:34Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah, that's nice. That's really nice.

• 2:17:37Chris Hauth?

  And it's stagnant, right? And who am I?

• 2:17:40Rich Roll?

  It's stagnant, but it's also, and I've said this many times before, it's, it's an illusion in its stagnancy. Because the truth is, we're always moving closer or further away from that person we aspire to be. Every action that we take is a function of, you know, moving us along that spectrum, right? So when you think of it in those terms, instead of this is who I am and I'm stuck here and I'll always be this person, understand that you're always in flux. And so I think that helps like liberate you into this idea of free will around these things and allows a little bit of space for that notion of potential to creep in.

• 2:18:20Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, cocooned a boom.

• 2:18:22Rich Roll?

  Butterfly. Yeah. So for all the people that tuned in thinking, we're gonna say, here's how you set your goal and here's how you put it on the can.

• 2:18:28Alexi Pappas?

  Sure did.

• 2:18:29Rich Roll?

  Make sure you sign up for a race the day after you finish that race.

• 2:18:34Rich Roll?

  Sorry to all you people, but there are plenty of other podcasts out there that will explain all of that, which you probably already all know already. Yeah. And that doesn't need to be affirmed. So hopefully, we had, albeit a very esoteric conversation, one that will maybe help you think a little bit more deeply about these things that we all tend to ruminate on at the beginning of the year. Yeah. Love it. All right, you guys. How do you feel? Feel like you're gonna sign up for a race?

• 2:19:03Chris Hauth?

  No.

• 2:19:05Caroline Burckle?

  No, actually.

• 2:19:05Rich Roll?

  That's the thing, right?

• 2:19:06Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:07Alexi Pappas?

  Like, no, I decided, literally.

• 2:19:09Caroline Burckle?

  I'm actually just great as I am right now.

• 2:19:11Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah, I'm not signing up for one, like, a major, major one until I'm ready to run. Like, I'm doing, like, the speed project, but that doesn't feel like a major marathon. But I'm gonna wait till the fitness, till things come to me.

• 2:19:25Chris Hauth?

  I'm on the self-curated adventures path.

• 2:19:27Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, I like that a lot.

• 2:19:29Chris Hauth?

  Rim, the rim, the rim.

• 2:19:30Alexi Pappas?

  Oh, you're doing those ones? I wanna do that stuff.

• 2:19:33Chris Hauth?

  It's not, whenever.

• 2:19:35Caroline Burckle?

  Oh, but I mean, are you doing it in the spring?

• 2:19:36Chris Hauth?

  Whenever I curate to go, we're probably gonna do it in the winter, in February.

• 2:19:39Caroline Burckle?

  Oh dang.

• 2:19:40Alexi Pappas?

  Wait, who's we?

• 2:19:41Caroline Burckle?

  What a daredevil.

• 2:19:42Chris Hauth?

  My better half and I, Emily.

• 2:19:43Alexi Pappas?

  You're gonna do it together with support?

• 2:19:46Chris Hauth?

  No.

• 2:19:47Alexi Pappas?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:19:48Caroline Burckle?

  You didn't want us to come?

• 2:19:49Chris Hauth?

  Um, you.

• 2:19:50Alexi Pappas?

  I was just gonna say, let's do it together.

• 2:19:52Chris Hauth?

  We're going fully zen.

• 2:19:54Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah, we'll do it our own.

• 2:19:55Caroline Burckle?

  It's fine, we'll see you out there.

• 2:19:57Alexi Pappas?

  Do you think that you'll do any, like, wave at you from a girl?

• 2:19:59Rich Roll?

  I'm working on an idea or two.

• 2:20:00Alexi Pappas?

  Okay.

• 2:20:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we'll see.

• 2:20:02Alexi Pappas?

  Well, we're always down for an adventure.

• 2:20:04Chris Hauth?

  You gotta be careful on these podcasts when you say something.

• 2:20:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I've learned enough. All right, well, to be continued, this edition of Coach's Corner.

• 2:20:15Alexi Pappas?

  We are still recording.

• 2:20:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we're recording, we're still going.

• 2:20:18Caroline Burckle?

  Keep that part.

• 2:20:22Rich Roll?

  Why doesn't everybody sign off with where they want people to, if they want, if people wanna find out more about you? Where should they go?

• 2:20:30Alexi Pappas?

  My Instagram is AlexiPappas, A-L-E-X-I-P-A-P-P-A-S, like, potatoes and Spanish with an extra P.

• 2:20:37Caroline Burckle?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:20:38Rich Roll?

  There you go.

• 2:20:38Caroline Burckle?

  That's a good one.

• 2:20:41Caroline Burckle?

  I don't have as exciting of a description, but Karo Burkley, C-A-R-O-B-U-R-C-K-L-E, is my Instagram.

• 2:20:48Chris Hauth?

  Oh, do I use Instagram?

• 2:20:50Caroline Burckle?

  You use it a little. You do. I barely use it anymore.

• 2:20:53Rich Roll?

  People should go to your website. I'm sure there's a bunch of people who are gonna want you to coach them now.

• 2:20:57Chris Hauth?

  A-I-M-P Coaching dot com, which stands for Advancing the Integration of Mindset on Performance.

• 2:21:05Caroline Burckle?

  Let's go.

• 2:21:05Rich Roll?

  There you go. So you didn't even have to change the acronym or anything.

• 2:21:09Chris Hauth?

  But you guys caught me off guard, because I was just thinking, as I was saying, you're staring at me, because I said I don't do Instagram. And it's like, these eyes, I'm like, well, what is my Instagram? I think it's like Aim Coach, Aim Coach.

• 2:21:19Alexi Pappas?

  Do you tweet?

• 2:21:20Chris Hauth?

  No, I don't tweet. We're officially off the rails.

• 2:21:24Alexi Pappas?

  Oh, gosh. And now I'm a movie star. I was gonna be like, singing on this thing. You know what I mean?

• 2:21:32Chris Hauth?

  Keep going, please.

• 2:21:33Alexi Pappas?

  No, no, it's a singer, like, oh, okay.

• 2:21:35Caroline Burckle?

  We'll turn this one to you.

• 2:21:37Alexi Pappas?

  Yeah. I'm sure you've done that before, right? This is an amazing setup.

• 2:21:53Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment.

• 2:22:38Rich Roll?

  Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated, and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Kale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg.

• 2:23:17Rich Roll?

  Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and A.J. Akpodiette. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.