Why should I spend time in nature?

Nature is good for our wellbeing. But how much green space does a community need, before you can see a wellbeing boost? And how do we encourage people to spend more time outdoors? This episode first aired in September 2023. In celebration of National Science Week, make sure to vote in ABC Radio National's poll for Australia's most amazing wildflower https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2026-08-05/science-week-amazing-wildflowers-poll/106612968. Guests: Belinda McCawleyFounder, Mindful in Nature Dr Xiaoqi FengProfessor of Urban Health and EnvironmentSchool of Population Health,University of New South Wales (UNSW)Founding Co-Director of PowerLab Josh BrownCo-founder, Deadly Ed Credits: Presenter: Sana QadarReporter/producer: Rose KerrSound engineer: John JacobsTo read the transcript for this episode, head to its original webpage https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/allinthemind/nature-prescriptions-what-the-doctor-ordered/102726446. To explore more great episodes from the award-winning psychology podcast All in the Mind with host Sana Qadar, download the ABC Listen app (Australia) or search 'ABC All in the Mind podcast' wherever you get your podcasts. There you'll find more episodes on mental health, trauma, attachment theory, wellness hacks, and family relationships. You'll also hear interviews with experts like Esther Perel, Billy Garvey and Ethan Kross. All in the Mind is created for ABC's Radio National by specialist journalists and reporters at the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  In the course of my travels, I've been recording nature's soundscapes, with the aim of helping you, Australia, to relax. And in this particular overnight recording, there was this one duck that just kept screaming its guts out. Anyway, don't worry, I've selected only the best, most relaxing soundscapes that absolutely do not feature this duck. Find nature sounds by Anne Jones wherever you get your podcasts and on the ABC Listen app.

• 0:37Sana Qadar?

  I don't consider myself a very outdoorsy person. I don't really go camping. I'm very much a city girl, but even I love the feeling of getting out of the city from time to time and getting into nature. Because there's something about nature that just calms the nerves, doesn't it?

• 0:54Speaker 03

  I felt like nature had sort of soothed those bits that were hurting or a little bit uncomfortable.

• 1:00Speaker 04

  I'm a saltwater person, so being in the saltwater is the thing that really kind of recalibrates me. That and also just being within nature, looking around and seeing all the different native plants, but knowing what I can use them for.

• 1:15Sana Qadar?

  There's also research to back up what we know instinctively, that nature can make us feel good.

• 1:21Speaker 05

  Our research shows that if you live in closer to green space and with a lot of tree canopy, we're talking about 30% or more, that will help you to reduce the risk of developing depression, anxiety, and also even help reduce loneliness.

• 1:39Sana Qadar?

  From ABC Radio National, this is All in the Mind. I'm Sana Qadar. Today, producer Rose Kerr joins me in the studio. Hey, Rose.

• 1:46Speaker 06

  Hi, Sana. Thanks for having me.

• 1:48Sana Qadar?

  So now, this is an episode that you did back in 2023. It's from our archives, but we thought it was worth revisiting for National Science Week, something you've been pretty involved in this year.

• 1:58Speaker 06

  Yes, so this year, ABC Radio National is on a nationwide search for Australia's most amazing wildflower. Basically, there's 10 shortlisted flowers and people can vote for their favourite. We'll put a link and all the details in the show notes. But while we've been discussing all things flowers, it did remind me of how beneficial spending time in nature can be for our mental health. Like, I was speaking to a botanical illustrator recently, who spends a lot of time out in the bush so she can paint landscapes. And I just thought that was such a beautiful way to spend time in nature without having to go on a hike.

• 2:36Sana Qadar?

  Yes, I would literally rather do anything but go on a hike, but I still want to be amongst the trees.

• 2:41Speaker 06

  Exactly, and that is something that we talk about in this episode. You really don't have to be doing high-impact exercise to still get the benefits of nature.

• 2:50Sana Qadar?

  And to be clear, I do go on hikes, just not really hard ones.

• 2:53Speaker 06

  Yes, yes.

• 2:59Speaker 06

  On a very cold, but thankfully sunny day, I went to the park to meet Belinda McCauley.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  When I arrived here, I was immediately drawn to the sunny spot. I take a moment to ground, so just feeling the earth beneath my feet. And I like to kind of look up to the sky and...

• 3:18Speaker 06

  Belinda loves spending time in nature.

• 3:20Speaker 03

  And just take a couple of breaths. And if I could say there's a place that feels most like home, it's the south west of Western Australia. That's where I grew up and where I have some really fond memories. And I guess some first memories of my sort of deep connection to nature.

• 3:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, can you tell me a bit about that first connection?

• 3:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, I grew up on a farm as a kid. And I used to go out to the forest with mum and dad, collecting wood for our wood fire. And quite often, we'd take a picnic. It was during these times, and I was a teenager, that I really felt this, I don't know, it's hard to describe, but it was just like a peacefulness. And it was certainly felt for me after I'd been in the forest and sort of going home. I just felt so much more softened and I felt like nature had sort of soothed those bits that were hurting or a little bit uncomfortable.

• 4:18Speaker 06

  In her twenties, as life got busier with travel, work and study, Belinda's connection to nature slowly disappeared.

• 4:25Speaker 03

  I probably lost my way a bit then. I sort of just got a job and, you know, life kind of took over.

• 4:33Speaker 06

  Then, Belinda would receive news that uprooted her life.

• 4:37Speaker 03

  So my niece was diagnosed with a rare cancer. She was, I think, 15 at her diagnosis. And my family are very close. And I guess I took on a support role to help my sister through that, you know, first initial period of treatment. But I was just, I was a wreck. Like, I didn't actually sort of know how to deal with my feelings and my emotions. I was really angry. It just impacted on every aspect of my life. It was impacting on my relationships with my family, that the very people that I felt like I needed to support. And it was, that was probably the catalyst for me to go, well, you know,

• 5:21Speaker 03

  if I'm going to play a support role in, you know, helping my family along this journey, I really need to get my shit together. So I suppose it was a bit of a kick up the bum and, yeah, I went for help.

• 5:36Speaker 06

  Belinda worked with a therapist who introduced her to mindfulness and meditation.

• 5:40Speaker 03

  This mindfulness meditation is, wow, like, it was transformational for me. And there was a really pivotal moment, I would say. My niece went on to have a secondary cancer and then she was diagnosed as terminal. And I remember the last, the last sort of months or weeks. And I was with my family and I'd returned to the house and I was sitting outside drip drying. And I just had this moment where I had really sort of tuned into this sense of peace within me.

• 6:19Speaker 03

  And I realised that even though there was all this chaos unfolding around me and there was grief and there was soon to be, you know, death, I actually felt this sense of peace and calm within me. And I believe that's what mindfulness meditation gave me.

• 6:39Speaker 06

  Combining mindfulness with a rediscovered love of nature was a game changer for Belinda's mental health. She's so passionate about the effects it's had on her life that she started a business running outdoor group mindfulness sessions called Mindful in Nature.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  It was through this practice of mindfulness and this remembering of what it was like to be connected with nature and feel in relationship with and have this reciprocal kind of relationship with nature that really kind of pulled me back. And that was the moment.

• 7:23Speaker 06

  Belinda's not alone in finding nature restorative. Researchers have been investigating the impact of green spaces on nature and our wellbeing. And it's clear that nature makes us feel better.

• 7:35Speaker 05

  From our research, also others in the world, we find nature have a lot of positive impact on our health, not only physically, but also mentally.

• 7:47Speaker 06

  Dr. Xiao Qi Feng is a professor of urban health and environment. She's also the founding co-director of the Power Lab. That's the Population Wellbeing and Environment Research Lab.

• 7:58Speaker 05

  Our research shows that if you live in closer to green space and with a lot of tree canopy, we're talking about 30% or more, that will help you to reduce the risk of developing depression, anxiety, also even help reduce loneliness. And the physical health, I think, maybe is easier to understand that you probably can go into walking, jogging or running around in the local park. So which is good for our physical health, is good for our heart. But being in the park, in the green space, is also help us to socially connect.

• 8:38Speaker 06

  When we're at the park, we experience social connection just by being around other people. So that's good for reducing loneliness. Being outdoors also restores us.

• 8:48Speaker 05

  We have those days you feel exhausted, tired, maybe a bit negative emotion. But being in the nature walk about 20 minutes or more. When I come out, I felt like my mind completely refreshed. And I think, oh, well, that was no big deal. I didn't necessarily talk to anyone, but just seeing the live nature and the being in it and it's refreshed my mind, which help us to restore, which I actually published a paper with many researchers in the world. And restoration is one of the pathways that we investigated that could link green space and health.

• 9:24Speaker 06

  Researchers like Xiao are looking for ways to get people into nature so they can actually feel these benefits. One of these potential ways is through nature prescriptions.

• 9:34Speaker 05

  It's a written recommendation to spend more time in nature by a drippy or another health professionals. So this might involve referrals to group-based activities in nature. Yeah, and such as outdoor yoga class or forest bathing or community gardening work, which happen in many communities. There's increasing use nature prescription in many countries like Canada and the UK. But there's not just getting started in Australia, including my research team. We are currently recruiting participants to join our new trial, which we call PANDA,

• 10:19Speaker 05

  physical activity in nature for people with metabolic diseases at age over 45 and over. What we would like to know is that whether spending time in nature, have nature prescriptions by a health professional, could increase people's physical activity level and whether this could help people with cardiometabolic diseases better manage their health condition just by simply in nature.

• 10:55Speaker 06

  If you're someone who loves being outdoors, you might be thinking, why is a prescription really necessary? Well, there seems to be a group of people who aren't drawn to nature in the first place.

• 11:06Speaker 05

  So the Canadian GPs, they recommend that we need to spend at least two hours awake in nature, and that is based on a study which published in UK. They find that spend at least two hours awake is good for our health. However, we don't know whether this is the case in Australia. But what surprised me is that during the pandemic, me and Professor Thomas Estabert from University of Wurunggung and the team, we conducted a national survey in Australia. But this is time what happened is that we are still kind of in pandemic,

• 11:48Speaker 05

  but we're not stay locked down, stay at home with a 5-km restriction, and also most of us still work from home. And you would expect two hours awake in nature, no brainer.

• 12:02Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 12:03Speaker 05

  But one-third of Australians did not achieve that. So one-third of Australians haven't even spent two hours awake in nature, which let me think, wow. Eighty-two percent of Australians actually said, we would like to have a nature prescription if it's issued by a health professional.

• 12:24Speaker 06

  Hmm. Why do you think they need that extra encouragement from a health professional?

• 12:29Speaker 05

  There are barriers, like the access barrier or quality of green space or nature. And but we also talk about there are motivations.

• 12:39Speaker 06

  Shaw suggests that we need to consider both motivations and barriers when we think about nature prescriptions. And if we group people looking at their motivations or access to a green space, there's one group Shaw isn't particularly concerned about.

• 12:53Speaker 05

  We have people have the motivation and also, you know, they have great access. Fantastic.

• 12:58Speaker 06

  But then there's people who might be motivated to visit a park but don't have access. Others have good access but very little motivation, and some that have neither.

• 13:09Speaker 05

  Given we know all the benefits just being in nature, the health benefits, the wellbeing, we really should think about how we can work with the community, the policymakers, urban planners, and to work out the nature prescription and the town planning.

• 13:28Speaker 06

  As researchers like Shaw investigate the role nature can play in our wellbeing, it's worth reflecting on the connection First Nations Australians have with country.

• 13:37Speaker 04

  My name's Josh Brown. I'm a proud Warrimau man from the Foster Tuncurrie region of New South Wales, and I'm the co-founder of Deadly Ed, which is an Aboriginal education provider, ensuring anyone, anywhere, has access to quality and authentic Aboriginal education.

• 13:53Speaker 06

  Josh, for you, how do you personally feel when you're in nature?

• 13:58Speaker 04

  It's, it's a thing that immediately connects you and grounds you back into culture straight away. I think if I'm ever having a day where it's like, I don't feel like myself or I don't feel like I'm connected with culture, yeah, I work in and with culture every day. But at times, when you start to, as we are now experiencing, you start to go into this business westernised realm, combining culture with that. At times it can feel like, are you actually in culture or not? So for me, nature is the most important part of that, and it's the most important part of, for anyone, to connect with, with culture.

• 14:43Speaker 06

  Do you have a favourite place?

• 14:44Speaker 04

  Ah, look, you'll find that any Aboriginal people or any First Nations people around the world will say where they're from is their favourite place. And that's always been the case for me. And it's, it hasn't really been until I, you know, I moved, I moved away. Like, growing up, you're sort of, you know, after 18 years in the same spot, you're like, oh, just want to get out of here, you know? But it's, it's that thing of, when you move away from it, you then start to really think about all the things that you really like about it. And then where you then move to, you then start to connect with like, oh, I connect with this because that's what I'm used to where I'm from, you know? So where you're from and your own mob, or from your own country,

• 15:28Speaker 04

  that's where you always connect with first, as we always remember first.

• 15:33Speaker 06

  Josh is from the Tuncurrie region on the mid-north coast of New South Wales.

• 15:37Speaker 04

  So for me, I'm, I'm a saltwater person. So being in the saltwater is a thing that really kind of recalibrates me. That and also just being within nature, looking around and seeing all the different native plants, but knowing what I can use them for. They're the stuff that really connects me back to nature and back to culture immediately.

• 16:02Speaker 06

  As part of Josh's job, he teaches people of all different backgrounds how to connect with nature and culture.

• 16:08Speaker 04

  So when we're thinking of our connection with country, it's thinking firstly that culture isn't, isn't, isn't people, right? And that's what, that's the misconception that cultures of the world are the people. Well, it's actually not. The culture is the land. So how do you connect with the land around you? That is how you connect with culture. It's just that the people are kind of like the middle person. Because, look, I don't know about you, Rose, but yeah, look, trees and plants don't, don't necessarily speak, unless you have a few too many one night, and who knows? But essentially, it's, it's the people that, you know,

• 16:50Speaker 04

  provide the knowledge of how to connect with local land and culture. So really, it's, it's, and that's what anyone can do. And it's not a case of like, oh, it's only Aboriginal people that can connect with local country. And like, when you think about it, how do you connect with the land around you? Well, that's how you're connecting with it, right? It's not what someone else tells you. It's how you connect with it. Like, whether it is that, oh, I like looking at this, I like feeling this, I like smelling this, I like tasting this. And really, the, the only way to connect with country, to connect with land, is through the senses. If you're not connecting through the senses, then you're not really connecting with it.

• 17:31Speaker 06

  I saw that you do a bush tucker program as part of Deadly Ed. Could you tell us a bit about what happens during those programs and what kind of feedback you get from people?

• 17:41Speaker 04

  So with our, with our gardens and our bush tucker programs, that's all around how do we connect people of all ages to, to land, to our native plants? And how do we teach people about native plants and their many varying cultural uses of these plants? Not just where I or my staff are from, but different plants use well, different mobs for different purposes all across Australia. So that's one element of it, is how can we educate people about that side of things in terms of educating people more about culture and how native plants are actually the most critical part of culture, but they're the most critical part in terms of sustainability?

• 18:22Speaker 04

  And introducing the different, I guess, aspects of land management and positive land management that, look, so many of our mobs have done for, you know, millennials. So it, it's sort of, it starts with that. But then, I guess, the, the more hands-on stuff that we really want to get across to people of all ages is knowing how to grow a plant or how to grow a garden yourself, how to start it from scratch, and how to keep looking after it yourself. It'd be great that I can teach as many people as I can how to grow a $10 lettuce.

• 19:03Speaker 04

  Versus, you know, and it's like, if we don't know how to just to grow our own food, then that's something that we should be really taking seriously. And that's something that I want to see happen more, is that our own Aboriginal communities not just know how to grow their own food, but they know how to grow bush tucker. They know how to grow the stuff that grows where they are. Because that knowledge, unfortunately, in many parts of Australia, has been lost. It's gone. And we're in this phase of, yeah, some mobs having to relearn this stuff, which, yeah, it is, it's a massive shame. But if we can at least provide some kind of outlet now, I think that's a really positive start at least.

• 19:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, and kind of rebuilding that connection and tapping into it.

• 19:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, essentially, like, you know, the, the knowledge around native plants and, you know, traditional, you know, land management practices. Yeah, they're happening in different parts across Australia. And then there's parts where people were just kind of like, well, we don't even know where to start. It's like old uncle or aunty, such and such, they're, you know, they passed away a few years ago or something. So I, I think for us, it's how can we make sure we're helping other mob to know how to do this stuff themselves?

• 20:20Speaker 06

  Thinking about the people you've done the programs with, what do you see within them in terms of their wellbeing as they engage in these programs?

• 20:30Speaker 04

  It's one of the things that, when I was growing up, I thought gardening was just like the most boring thing ever at some folk people. And like, my mum always laughs about how like, you know, so into this that I am now. Because she always says like, oh, well, you know, in high school, you just destroyed most plants playing cricket. And just saying, oh, good over at mum, they're just plants. And it's, and it's really interesting now, like, I see kids in primary school, I see kids in high school, I see adults. And the immediate thing is, oh, this is actually like, really like therapeutic. Like, I feel like, you know, really good, like I was able to just to zone out and just do this hands-on activity.

• 21:14Speaker 06

  In her mindful in nature sessions, Belinda has also noticed people come away feeling peaceful.

• 21:19Speaker 03

  You can see it in people's faces. Quite often, the last place that we relax is our face. So just by noticing people's faces and even their shoulders, I certainly carry stress in my shoulders. Their, their body has softened, but even in their words and how they relate to the experience and how they relate to others in the group, you can certainly see that it's had a calming effect on, on people. And there's a sense of quiet that this experience evokes within you.

• 21:54Speaker 06

  But not everyone wants to garden or meditate. This is why nature prescriptions would need to be customisable, so you actually do the activity.

• 22:02Speaker 05

  Because not everyone going to buy, say, do a park run at 6am on Saturday. They may do once, you know, and then it's not sustainable. That's a part of the implementation. It need to be customised for people to make it sustainable and with the motivation. So then they could really benefit from nature. I would say this is one of the prescription probably have no or very little set effect. The only thing I can imagine is you need some protection before you go out, so we don't get skin cancer. But other than that, I think it's very healthy.

• 22:37Speaker 06

  Given not everyone will have the same use of a nature space, we also need diversity in our parks. In your neighbourhood, you might have seen small parks dotted around between suburbs. These are what Xiao calls pocket parks. They're great because they provide a green space, but they often tend to serve the same purpose.

• 22:56Speaker 05

  If you're going to this park 10 minutes, you know, you can walk around and you go to the other park, pretty much the same. But the population could be quite diverse. We have children, family, ageing population, all people, you know, they are 9 to 5 or even 9 to 8 kind of walking hours. If we have those pocket park within walking distance or short drive, they have different functions that probably will help the local population. Some of them, you can go there just to have a run, but the other one maybe quite small is just good enough for people find a bench or sit on the grass. And maybe there's another park, you can actually off leash your dog.

• 23:40Speaker 05

  So all that, it's difficult to achieve if you just have one small park and it won't have all the functions. But we could potentially achieve that where a few of the pocket park in the neighbourhood. And this require the urban planners to really carefully design the local community parks and to really think about who live here and listen the community's voice.

• 24:07Speaker 06

  It sounds like the nature prescriptions need to work in conjunction with, yeah, the urban planners and people who are looking at the demographics of the community. So it seems like something that's very multi-tiered.

• 24:19Speaker 05

  Absolutely. And this is what part of the plan I think is very special, that we aim to call design with consumers, with health professionals and also those nature practitioners. So this is where we all learn from each other. And so by the end of day, we are able to know what we can provide to the participant, to the general population. And hopefully that will have more healthier community and building environment in the very near future.

• 24:53Speaker 06

  Working with urban planners and government is actually something Xiao's done before. Her earlier research influenced the planning of Sydney's green cover.

• 25:01Speaker 05

  So I remember well, over 10 years ago, when I first present my research on green space and health at the Royal Botany Garden in Sydney next to the Opera House. We have quite a lot of policymakers or people from council and they said, amazing, we really like your research and which provides scientific evidence show how does green space benefits on health. So then they asked me a question, say, hi Xiao, can you tell me how much green space we need? And I was like, oh, very good question, I would like note two. It probably is a million dollar question and I hope I could answer. And you know what?

• 25:42Speaker 05

  Actually, I did got a million dollars of those research fundings, very competitive funding around. And after we published about 87 research just on green space and health, which there's a continuous of figure come out, it's 30% or more tree canopy in our neighbourhood could help us to maintain or improve our physical health and also good for our mental health as well, reduce depression, anxiety and even loneliness.

• 26:18Speaker 06

  This 30% green cover kept coming up in Xiao's research. She presented it to industry and policymakers.

• 26:24Speaker 05

  When they make their urban greening or forest strategy, they take my advice and use my research and they think about what they need to do. So they are actually going to aim even higher, like city of Sydney is 40% or more, I mean, to achieve in the next 10 years, which I think is fantastic because we do need a good amount of tree canopy and green space, especially given our growing population. So if say today we have 100 square of green space in our neighbourhood for 500 household, great, but give 10 years' time, this may be become high density neighbourhood.

• 27:09Speaker 05

  It's no longer 500 people anymore, it could be, you know, 5,000. But if we still have the same amount of green space, that means the ratio become really high, right? So this is where we should really work in more and with policymakers that creating high quality green space and the tree canopy for our urban people.

• 27:34Speaker 06

  When her niece would get treatment, Belinda would take her over to King's Park.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  I remember this one particular day, we were laying in the park and were surrounded by all these trees. And I said to her, let's imagine where the trees and let's see if we can name them and talk about their lives and their journey and what they've experienced. And so we did, we went on and we started talking about, you know, the trees as if we were their ancestors, you know, and their scars and all their wounds. We would talk about, you know, how they got them. And it was, it was such a beautiful experience and something that a memory that stays with

• 28:23Speaker 03

  me because, you know, even for her with, I guess, everything that was going on, it was just a moment to remember. There's that remembering of where we came from and, and also just being there in the present moment, appreciating all the beauty around us.

• 28:40Speaker 06

  That is Belinda McCauley, founder of Mindful in Nature. You also heard from Dr Xiao Qi Fong, Professor of Urban Health and Environment at the University of New South Wales and founding co-director of The Power Group. Thanks also to Josh Brown, co-founder of Deadly Ed. This episode was reported and produced by Rose Kerr. Our sound engineer this week was John Jacobs. I'm Sana Qadar and that's it for All in the Mind this week. Thanks for listening, I'll catch you next time.