Zac Clark on Addiction, Recovery and a Life of Service

Zac Clark is the founder of Release Recovery and a tireless recovery advocate, as well as the winner of The Bachelorette. He totally embodies the principles of recovery and what it means to give back to this community that has saved so many. This conversation gets into the reality of addiction and why, for Zac, recovery is less about willpower than community. We cover: willingness, emotional sobriety, how families get pulled under, the stranger who saved his life, and what running gives him. Zac has helped so many people through direct and consistent service, and it was such privilege to have him on. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Seed: Use code RICHROLL25 for 25% off your first month of DS-01®👉🏼https://www.seed.com/RichRoll Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF👉🏼https://www.gobrewing.com Gusto: Get three months free when you run your first payroll👉🏼https://www.gusto.com/RICHROLL Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain👉🏼https://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:03Speaker 01

  Like, I am in so much pain. The only thing giving me that relief is injecting heroin.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  Zach Clark. Host of The Zach Clark Show, the winner of The Bachelorette. Mental health advocate.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  CEO and founder of Release Recovery. Here I am, newly married, great job, house, dog, but I'm miserable and I have no desire of stopping. And no one knows, I kept it to myself. This is the most painful moment of my life. And this medicine she's giving me is completely wiping out that pain. And that was a feeling that I was gonna remember and go chase as hard as I could.

• 1:47Rich Roll?

  Zach, it's great to have you here. This, uh, this might be the most overdue conversation in the history of this podcast. I can't believe we haven't done this years ago.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  I am excited and I woke up this morning saying it's exactly like how it's supposed to be.

• 2:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What is the mission that you're on?

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Me?

• 2:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  It's a loaded question. I think there's, there's two answers to that question. One is, there is this bizarre contract I have with the world, where I spent 27 years hurting people. I hurt a lot of people. There's a lot of things that I'm not proud of. And there is a sick... Maybe not sick, I don't know the right word, but there is a driver in my life that never wants to return to that person and wants to make restitution for that stuff. And I'm aware that that fuels a lot of my behavior on a daily basis. I'm not always proud of it because it can create competition,

• 2:57Speaker 01

  it can create, um, comparing out, it can create some things that aren't great. But ultimately, if I put everything in the middle of the table, it's worked for me. And that goes into trauma, my relationship with my parents, my relationship with my family, there's a lot. There's a lot of ex-wife, you know, all these people that I harmed. So that's the personal mission.

• 3:21Rich Roll?

  Does that come from a place of hardness? Like, it sounds like a form of self-punishment as opposed to a heart-centered, you know, desire to serve people and be in the solution?

• 3:33Speaker 01

  On bad days, it's self-punishment. On good days, it's exactly what it's supposed to be. I'm rooting for others, my heart is full.

• 3:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  And I spent a lot of time with my therapist on this. Like, there's a lot of work that's gone into understanding why that is one of my drivers.

• 3:52Rich Roll?

  How does therapy work in the context of a recovery program? Like, is it, in your case, supplemental to doing the steps in your, uh, your kind of AA community? Or what is that relationship like?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  So at the beginning, I needed to be physically separated from drugs and alcohol. I had no shot of being in the world and not picking up. The phenomenon of craving, the allergy, whatever it was, was too powerful. So initially, I needed a lot of therapy. I needed a lot of separation. Ultimately, I knew that the thing that was going to sustain my recovery long-term was going to be community, fellowship, service, prayer, meditation, helping others. And I found all those things in AA. So today, almost 15 years into it, it's AA and. So AA and therapy, AA and running, AA and going to the concert or playing the golf

• 4:53Speaker 01

  or finding joy in ways that previously I really wasn't able to. The second part is just letting the person who is out there, who is struggling, know that this thing is available to them. And that's a lot of the experience I got when reading Running Ultra. That book was not given to me as a, as a recovery aid or, hey, you should check out this guy, Rich Roll, because he's sober. It was given to me because I was getting into running and someone knew I wanted to change. And when I got to the part of the book where you were sober, I said, holy shit. And that was something that was really cool to me and I identify with that, so.

• 5:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, back to, uh, transgressing the tradition.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 5:43Rich Roll?

  Um, all right, Zach.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  I mean, look, I was in an AA meeting when I came off The Bachelorette, which I'm sure you're gonna get to this. So it's a double-edged sword. Because I'm in an AA meeting where I'm wanting to be anonymous and it's Zoom and it's the height of COVID and I have people direct messaging like stuff about this show that I was just on. So I don't know if I'm trying to make myself the special snowflake or whatever it is, but there's times where it's been taken from me.

• 6:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  I don't have a choice.

• 6:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. For those that don't know, Zach was not only a contestant on The Bachelorette, you were the champion.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Even that feels fucked up, like.

• 6:23Rich Roll?

  What year was that? That was, it was mid-COVID, right?

• 6:26Speaker 01

  It was COVID, man. Like, and the thing was, like, I have so many things I could say about it, but it was, there was no TV. That was it. So people watched it.

• 6:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  You know, like, that was like, we, we.

• 6:40Rich Roll?

  To this day, I Googled you this morning just to see what was coming up.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Don't even tell me.

• 6:45Rich Roll?

  It's just 100% Bachelorette. You know, like, like, you need to work on your Release Recovery SEO because like, just Googling your name, like, it was just Us Weekly and like, you know, tabloid news reports about your relationship status.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's trauma for me, right? Like, that, I could, I could do some intensive work around that.

• 7:06Rich Roll?

  Is he or is he not back with so-and-so?

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. We even just, I remember I walked into a family meeting like a year after the show and we had, this family had hired me. And I'm usually pretty upfront about like, hey, just so you know. And the family was very much, yeah, like, our kids don't, like, this guy, our son doesn't watch. Sure enough, I walk into the family meeting and the kid's like, what the fuck is he doing here?

• 7:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  You know, like, I just watched him on TV. And so there's been some work that I've had to do. And I think like, I can't change anything, right? It just is what it is.

• 7:44Rich Roll?

  Why did you decide to do that? What motivated that?

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Let's see how I can really dig into the honest answer there. I think one of the things I've admired about you is your ability, and you might have even said it on this last episode, just to acknowledge that, like, this desire to be around people and to like, and like, where that might be able to take you in life. And so I think there was probably an undertone, if I'm being really honest, around like, hey, like, I love my life, my recovery. Could this potentially kind of amplify this message that is so important to me? Accompanied by the fact that my mom and sister, who I love and are like two beautifully strong women

• 8:33Speaker 01

  and saved my life, took the time to fill out this application. And I got this call in the middle of May or April and it's COVID. LA is calling me. I pick up the phone and I'm like, what do you, hello? And it's this producer and she kept me on the phone like just long enough to have me consider doing the next thing. I just like, one day at a time, like one foot in front of the other, went through the process. And next thing you know, I'm doing the STD testing and the background checks and I'm zooming. And they kind of, how they do it is you're, you're left out to get this phone call a week before the show, whether you're in or out.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  So I'm like, kind of going through my life and running the business. Obviously it's shelter in place. Like we have no idea what we're being faced, faced with with COVID. And the season that they're about to film is going to be in a bubble, much like the NBA and the NHL and all these other leagues that were able to kind of have their seasons happen. So I was going to test into this community and then basically stay there. And I got the call in like the last month, or last week of May. And I was on a plane to Palm Springs like six days later. And then I was gone for four months.

• 9:50Rich Roll?

  But you didn't fill out that application?

• 9:53Speaker 01

  My sister and my mom.

• 9:54Rich Roll?

  Why did they do that? Like what made them think like this is what you needed to do? So, so are you saying that it wasn't even your idea to do this? That they just went and did that?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  I, it wasn't.

• 10:05Rich Roll?

  Suddenly you found yourself in this situation?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  When I got the phone call, walking into my apartment that night, it was the first I had heard of any of this.

• 10:15Rich Roll?

  They did it without you knowing.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Behind my back.

• 10:18Rich Roll?

  And so why did they do, they just thought this would be?

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Zach's 36, he's a workaholic. He's, you know, eight, nine years sober and we wanted to find a girl.

• 10:27Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  And this is how we're going to, and they watched the show. So they, you know, they were gonna.

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  So the one side of you is saying, well, this could be good for getting the message out about recovery and release recovery and the work that we're doing. We all just want to be seen, right? Like we want to be seen and validated on some level fundamentally. Addiction is a function of like that emotional need not having been met, which translates into an adult who is going to go out of their way to be seen. And there's no better way to be seen than to put yourself on television, right? This is like the ultimate for somebody who is just, you know, cravenly seeking external validation. So that's the other kind of side of it. Yeah.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. A hundred percent. And to find love. I mean, like truly, like the way that my mind works is like, okay, if I just take this time, it's going to work. Cause I'm going to be able to focus like strictly on this. And it was.

• 11:29Rich Roll?

  Did you go into it thinking like, I actually am going to find love here?

• 11:33Speaker 01

  That's how I go into anything I do. I mean, I, I don't go into anything not thinking like, I am a, I am a, I believe. I believe like, so yeah, if I'm going to do something, no matter how crazy.

• 11:47Rich Roll?

  Way too cynical to have like, if I was, had been in your shoes, I was like, this, there's no way.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think that's like a little bit of my.

• 11:54Rich Roll?

  Deliver, you know, like a real relationship.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  The blessing and the curse of Zach Clark is like, I'm like, there's a little.

• 11:59Rich Roll?

  The earnestness.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  It's just like a little, kind of like, I'm just going to go here and like, I'm not going to like, there's no contempt. Like I'm just going to go. And that's what I did. And then, so you show up there and this is when they're like poking your brain with the COVID test. So I'm in Palm Springs for 12 days shelter in place in a hotel room. They're bringing you, you're not going outside and you launch right from that to a Hollywood movie set. And I had never seen that. I mean, like this is ABC, this is Warner Brothers. And so like, they basically throw you into this limo and you're live, like you're with other guys that are in the season. You talk about,

• 12:41Speaker 01

  you know, experiential or experiential therapy or trial. Like I, I didn't know what the hell was going on. Crazy.

• 12:50Rich Roll?

  But this is a good environment for a hustler.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Well, and someone who's been to rehab a couple of times.

• 12:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Cause there was no travel.

• 12:57Rich Roll?

  You're, you're going into it with a level of emotional maturity and awareness, self-awareness, and also somebody who's really good at reading people.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I mean, I, I'm going to take the word hustler as a compliment because yeah, like I, I pride myself of walking into rooms, walking into situations and, and like feeling out what everyone is really there for. And seeking like the truth. And it was, I had a beautiful experience. I mean, like I met lifelong friends. You know, the producers catch a lot of shit in the media for bad edits and manipulating and, and maybe I am naive, but I felt genuine. I just had an experience. That's all it was.

• 13:42Rich Roll?

  Do you think that your success on the show was a function of you deciding to just be yourself and not perform in the way that the typical kind of reality personality operates?

• 13:58Speaker 01

  I could take that broader and say my success in life is for that, that, that, yes. Not just the show. And life gets a lot easier to live when you start to just kind of move closer to your authentic self.

• 14:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But you can't do that unless or until you've done the work to be comfortable in your own skin. And that's, that's really what recovery is.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I've had guys reach out to me with a year, two, three year sobriety and they're, you know, thinking about getting cast on the show or they're thinking about doing some form of reality television. And I just say like, my, my first and only question is like, where's your program? And if they don't have an answer to that question, then it's probably not a good. My biggest fear was taking my story nationally or taking my story into that environment and then relapsing and people saying, well, obviously recovery doesn't work.

• 14:53Rich Roll?

  Hence the reason for that tradition.

• 14:59Rich Roll?

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• 16:18Rich Roll?

  This episode is brought to you by

• 16:22Rich Roll?

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• 17:47Rich Roll?

  There's no doubt in my mind that it's a net positive how you show up publicly, because a lot of people's lives have been saved as a result of the decisions that you've made around how to communicate the principles of recovery and your own personal story.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  And I'm glad we started with that because it is hard.

• 18:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  And it's confusing for family members.

• 18:07Rich Roll?

  In what way?

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Family members really want to know about the whole thing. And there's an element of this for the identified patient or the person going through recovery that they want to keep private to themselves.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  And so when families come to me or families have someone who's going through it, they want to know when they're getting their amends, they want to know when they're getting all the things and.

• 18:34Rich Roll?

  That's a different kettle of fish.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  But how do you talk about being sober with someone who's just gotten out of rehab? You're married to a guy that goes to treatment for 30 days. How are we going to go out to the country club or to the game or whatever it is and talk about my husband's new sobriety?

• 18:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's confusing. It's confusing, even even for the most well-intentioned family member or partner.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:01Rich Roll?

  All right, Zach, as a kid, growing up, what's it look like? You've talked a lot about how you had a charmed upbringing and you have this great relationship with your family. So it's not the typical, you know, early childhood trauma tale of woe and despair.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  And that's something that I've had to wrap my head around. Yeah, I mean, look, I'm one of five kids. I have four, three siblings from my mom and dad's marriage. And then my dad had Rob, who's my older brother. I'm 42. And so, yeah, middle, upper class, kind of didn't really want for anything upbringing.

• 19:44Rich Roll?

  Suburban New Jersey.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Hatton Field, New Jersey, which is a one square mile town. I love it. It's great. It's a one square mile town where I always say the parents would go to the country club for dinner and the kids would all be partying on the eighth hole.

• 19:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  You know, while the parents are at and so, but it served its purpose.

• 20:06Rich Roll?

  So when did drugs and alcohol first enter the picture for you?

• 20:10Speaker 01

  I was like 13 years old, Christmas Eve. I'll never forget it was your typical kind of kids going to the garage, my brother and some friends. I end up getting invited. They throw me a Miller High Life. The peer pressure is there and I say, sure. So I drank that beer, maybe one or two more. And I didn't have this crazy blackout experience in my first drink. I didn't run around town naked. I didn't throw up. What happened was I went back to the house where my parents were kind of hanging out and they asked me what I was doing and I lied. And they believed me because they have no reason not to believe their 13 year old son who's at a Christmas Eve party.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  And what I clocked in that moment was I could lie and get away with it. And so the next morning, Santa Claus came and we opened presents. And now I had this thing that was very much my rite of passage or secret that I was going to start to share with others.

• 21:10Rich Roll?

  Did you have that warm blanket enveloping you experience? Like a light's going on like, oh, this is what I've been missing feeling? Or did that happen over time?

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, look, I think a lot of my pain comes from being super sensitive. I know you've talked about being a people pleaser like that is definitely something for me that I struggle with. And so the feeling that came with the drink, the warmth that I got was just the brain kind of just stopped for a minute and that was very comforting.

• 21:39Rich Roll?

  And when did it first become a problem? Or when did you first become aware that maybe your relationship was a little bit different than your peers?

• 21:48Speaker 01

  The next time I drank? I don't know. Like, you know, it's like, I loved it from day one, everything about it. I always say, so I don't know, I end up being a heroin addict and we'll get there. And there was this feeling when you would text your dealer and they would respond to you. The feeling of sickness almost lifts in that moment before you even get high. And I can remember back in high school, I would have 20 bucks, right? And that 20 bucks would get me a case of natural light, a six pack of Yin Ling and a flask of Captain Morgan. So this is like 2001, whatever it is. And you would give your $20 to the guy, you know, making the beer run on a Wednesday and he would pull down into the, you know, the circle, which is the parking lot where

• 22:31Speaker 01

  all the kids parked for high school on Friday. And he would pop his trunk and everyone flock there and kind of grab their stash for the weekend. I didn't even have to drink. I just, I needed to know another drunk was coming. And this is at 16, 17 years old.

• 22:46Rich Roll?

  The anticipation.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  So I would pull this kind of like rack out of the trunk and go into the woods and hide it. And I would almost just get high from that.

• 22:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The ritual of it is such a big piece that I think is underappreciated in the whole kind of calculus around addiction and the allure.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  And it was a different time.

• 23:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, it's a very innocent, you know, kind of thing. It's a very suburban, you know, well-raised kid, typical high school experience. Even if you were a parent and you were aware that that was going on, you're like, this is kind of normal. You know, there's nothing to be alarmed about here.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Well, I laugh because doing the work that I do, kids, I get phone calls for 16, 17 year old kids all the time. And they're like, it's the kratom, it's the, obviously the weed, it's the vapes, the jewels. Like I was smoking Marlboro Reds and drinking beer. Like it was kind of innocent.

• 23:48Rich Roll?

  Well, also being much older than you. Yeah. I mean, my high school experience, like kids would hang out in front of the 7-Eleven and wait for somebody who could go in and buy them beer. And like, that was it. Like there was no, you know, and some kind of like terrible weed that was occasionally available. And, you know, that was the end of it. Like there was no other, like I grew up in a suburban environment as well. Like the idea that, that, you know, all of the stuff that's now available to young people. I mean, that wasn't even, that was unimaginable.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  I always laugh with the kids now because it's, I tell them, they don't know the pain of having to pick the seeds and the stems off of the, like the little shitty dime bag that was probably sprayed with Raid and like putting it in an actual joint and smoking the spliff. Like they're, they have it, I don't know, good or bad.

• 24:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, there's this whole conversation around how the younger generations, whether it's millennials or Gen Z, like they just don't, they're not into drinking, like alcohol consumption rates have gone down. And obviously that's something to celebrate, but at the same time, it overlooks the fact that that is in part due to the fact that there are so many other drugs available to them that are better, you know, and more powerful and more readily accessible.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  If it was available to me, available to me in high school, college, I was, I was doing it. And I figured out very quickly that if I played three sports and I maintained, you know, like my kind of B minus, C plus grade point average. And I showed up when I needed to show up, I was going to be able to drink the way that I wanted to drink. And that was an equation that I figured out very, very, very early on in my life. And I wasn't an asshole. You know, I actually was the guy that kind of like wanted to bring people along for the ride.

• 25:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah. All right. Then what?

• 25:36Speaker 01

  After the dazed and confused high school experience, we were the bad tide. I mean, we were lost, we were lost. And we were listening to the Grateful Dead and Rolling Stones and think we were somebody. I went to college, you know, and I went to college. And I remember this is the first time, I love my dad, but the first time. So we, we went on this college tour. We were going to go visit four or five colleges in Pennsylvania over the course of a day. And we had just seen Gettysburg, which is a really nice college in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania. And it's expensive. And we're in this kind of shitty 1996 GMC truck. It's Jimmy. And my dad, we had also seen this school, York College in the same day, which is where

• 26:21Speaker 01

  I ended up going. My dad says to me, if you go to Gettysburg, you're me paying off your, you know, student loans for the rest of your life. If you go to York, you can have the truck we're driving in and I'll help you pay for it. Cause he knew, you know? And so I was like, great. The, the point is there was no curiosity. There was no thought put into like what I was going to do next in my life. And that's something I try to encourage young men to do is to be thoughtful and have permission to actually make their own decisions. Cause for me, I don't feel like that was presented to me. I was kind of just going to go along with whatever it was.

• 26:56Rich Roll?

  Just playing out the program.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And college was fine. I mean, college was fine. I played baseball. I was a left-handed pitcher. I kind of hit puberty late. And so I had a decent enough career. I remember, so my sophomore year, I was put in the starting rotation and this can just highlight my alcoholism. My junior year, I come back to campus and my coach sits me down. He says, we want you to be the closer this year. And my first thought is I can't be the closer because now I can pitch on any day and I can't plan my drinking.

• 27:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. This is going to interfere with the real priority.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  And I didn't double quick on that at the time, but that probably was a concerning thought. Like a junior playing college baseball should probably just want whatever's best for the team.

• 27:48Rich Roll?

  Do you think that if opioids had never entered the picture, that you would have been able to manage your drinking? Or was it just inevitable that?

• 27:56Speaker 01

  No. Drinking is my first love. I love to drink. So, so like, you know, in terms of calling myself an alcoholic, I'm absolutely an alcoholic. The opioids didn't come into play until I had the brain surgery.

• 28:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  So in, in college, I mean, like it was, it was keg stands, it was ice lugees, it was playing college baseball, it was kind of meeting my college sweetheart, who would I, who I would eventually marry. There was just no off switch.

• 28:28Rich Roll?

  I don't know what it's like to be in college now, but excessive drinking in college was just part of the experience. And you could be an alcoholic in college without anybody batting an eye.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  No one questioned it, Rich.

• 28:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  No one, my drinking wasn't really questioned until the first time I went into rehab.

• 28:51Rich Roll?

  And that was when?

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Twenty-five.

• 28:53Rich Roll?

  And what precipitated?

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Two thousand nine.

• 28:56Rich Roll?

  What precipitated that?

• 28:57Speaker 01

  I mean, a lot, a lot goes on between college and that moment.

• 29:01Rich Roll?

  There's, there's what, seven, eight years in there?

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Well, college is what, you're eighteen, nineteen years old. I get out of college, four years, graduate. It's a pretty benign college experience. I mean, like I'm blacking out three or four times a week. I'm playing college baseball, but to your point, like I'm thinking this is exactly what it's supposed to be.

• 29:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  And, and I do, when I look back on it, think to myself, I was a shell of a human. Like I was just checking the boxes and doing the bare minimum to kind of keep people off my back.

• 29:30Rich Roll?

  When you're in that cycle, there's no reflection or deep thinking around your goals or your dreams or like what's, you're just, you're literally like just thinking about when you're gonna party next. You know, you're not like, here's my life plan, or here's what I want to achieve in my life. Like, that's not really, at least for me, that was never really part of the process, the thought process.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  For the kid, or the parent that listens to this episode, that is one of my messages that I try to get across. Like, let the kid have some ability to think about what they want to do. Because what was drilled into me is I was gonna go to college, I was gonna get married, I was gonna move back home to the town I grew up in, I was gonna have four kids, and I was gonna recreate the same life that my parents gave me, and give that to the next generation.

• 30:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And just find whatever job would allow you to pay the bills and have the house with the car.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  That's what I did.

• 30:31Rich Roll?

  Have the kids.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  That's what I did. I got out of college and I got my first job as a recruiter. It was like your classic boiler room environment. You know, there's a cube farm and a bunch of phones, and if the number next to your name is good enough, like you can do whatever the hell you want. And I learned that very quickly. Like, I knew how to work a system. And so in a sales or commission's job, I found the guys in the office that partied and got my numbers up, and that fed my ability to...

• 31:00Rich Roll?

  Sure. As long as the numbers are up, then you can do whatever you want. Yeah.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's crazy.

• 31:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah. If you still are able to be on the mound and throw the pitch, you know, or show up on, on time at work and make the calls and get your numbers where they need to be, then you can drink as much as you want.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  And that's what's so confusing to parents and family members.

• 31:25Rich Roll?

  Because?

• 31:26Speaker 01

  If Zach is showing up, he's getting a degree, he's performing well on the baseball field, he's now got a job, he's got this beautiful girlfriend, there's no possible way that he's an alcoholic. And so when the wheels start to come off, it's very, very confusing. And that's why I always say, like, the person who's got it hardest after me and you is the family. Because there, there is no playbook on how to approach this thing.

• 31:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But these are all motivated by denial. Like, the, the, the need and the desire to be able to perpetuate the drinking and the using will create enough energy to make sure that everything is, all those boxes are checked. Because you know that if they're checked, nobody can say anything to you, and you can give yourself permission to go crazy. And the family's happy, or at least they're, you know, they have their own denial mechanism around what's happening. And this will allow you to perpetuate your relationship with substances in a way that if those boxes aren't checked, you're gonna have to confront it and face it. And that's, that's something you don't want to do.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Right. And I don't, I mean, you asked the question, would I have been able to kind of drink like a gentleman, or kind of drink, you know, the great obsession of every alcoholic is to drink like a normal man, right? And my answer was very quickly, no. But I do...

• 32:56Rich Roll?

  By keeping it together just enough out of the need to preserve that relationship.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And what happens is I end up, so it's kind of the, the beginning of the opiates are starting to kind of show up. Like, some of your buddies are kind of, hey, I got some of these perk tens, or these perk fives, or these roxocet, which are the thirty milligrams with no Tylenol in them. And, you know, I had experimented with them a couple times, just being out on a Friday night. And I remember one time I got sick, I swore off, like, I'll never do those things again. And then it is Memorial Day weekend, if I graduated oh-two, so it must've been like oh-four, Memorial Day weekend, and me and my buddies historically will pack our cars up, beer, meat, whatever it is, go down the

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Jersey Shore and spend a weekend. And so we're out kind of the night before that trip at a bar in Philadelphia, which is South Jersey, right over the bridge. So we used to go out in Philadelphia a lot. And I actually wasn't drinking. And I had been seeing kind of these kaleidoscopes when I would close my eyes, and I never told anyone because I felt like it was probably just a product of the way I was living. I was embarrassed. So I fall over and this bouncer, I almost get in a fight. He kicks me out. I said, dude, I'm not drinking. Like, I'm actually, there's something wrong with me. Doesn't believe me, proceeds to kick me out. I go back to my parents' house that night. I sleep in, I wake up the next morning, I say, there's something wrong with me. And no one believes

• 34:27Speaker 01

  me. Mom and dad are like, you're full of shit. It's just another hangover. And I don't know why, and this is probably my first spiritual experience, I took myself to this like side of the road, x-ray imaging spot. I don't know if I called, but somehow I got an appointment. And I go in and this lady does a scan, Memorial Day weekend, and she basically says, you're not going anywhere. The only place you're going is right to the hospital. I said, what are you talking about? She says, there's something on your brain that we need to get out like yesterday. And so within 24 hours, I'm at this bar getting kicked out, waking

• 35:10Speaker 01

  up my parents' house, to that night, being at University of Penn Hospital, with my parents by my side, going into surgery the next morning, and my surgeon coming in and saying, like, do you know what's happening tomorrow? I said, I think so. I'm having brain surgery. And there was no time to process, so there was no time to talk about it. It's just, we are doing this, and we are gonna figure the rest of it out later.

• 35:33Rich Roll?

  A brain tumor? Like a glioma?

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Uh, so it was a cavernoma. So basically, your hypothalamus, so if you, if you look, my hair is actually cut short now. You can, we can show a picture of it, but I have this kind of crater on the back of my head. And so there was this growth, it ended up being non-cancerous, growing on the back, on my hypothalamus, which was contributing to the balance, the kaleidoscopes, all my motor skills were kind of going. And so they had to go in, it had birds nested, and it had kind of like started to grow, and it was at risk of rupturing or whatever was next. And so, and they didn't know that. They didn't know it was gonna be benign. They, they, they had to go in, and this is twenty-some-odd

• 36:16Speaker 01

  years ago, so they had to get in there and kind of figure it out. And I just remember, the doctor came in and kind of said, this is a really serious surgery. Is there anything you'd like to say to your parents before you, I'm like, am I gonna die? What are you guys not telling me? Right? And, and, and I don't think there's any bedside manner or way to perfect that conversation. And the doctor said, he's like, it's a really serious surgery.

• 36:46Rich Roll?

  And you're what, like twenty-five, twenty-six?

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Twenty-four.

• 36:51Rich Roll?

  That's terrifying.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Terrifying. Now, what happens is, I get the surgery, I come out of it, I remember like waking up in the ICU and like the catheters in, and you're butt naked, and you're kind like, I was in the hospital for about twenty days. Cause the way it affected, I mean, I was like occupational therapy, making grilled cheese, playing memory, up one step, down one step. But the thing that I remember the most is, whatever this woman is putting in my arm, this is the most painful moment of my life, and this medicine she's giving

• 37:32Speaker 01

  me is completely wiping out that pain. And that was a feeling that I was gonna remember and go chase as hard as I could.

• 37:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's so interesting.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Which is the opioids, if you're wondering. That's like, she was, it was delaudid.

• 37:47Rich Roll?

  Delaudid, yeah. The non-addict would come out of that experience with a greater appreciation for every moment of life. Like, I'm so grateful to be alive. Like, I just want to get the most out of my limited time.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  That's what everyone's saying to me.

• 38:05Rich Roll?

  I've been given a second chance, blah, blah, blah. The addict is like, oh, this, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm going in this direction.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:14Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:15Rich Roll?

  Which is very difficult for somebody who isn't an addict to get their head around. Like, how could you make that decision?

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Exactly what you said. If you ever, I don't know if you're like me, like I've pictured my funeral at times, like what that would look like. And I kind of got to see it. Because this hospital room was just filled with people, day after day, bringing soft pretzels and water ice, and watching the Phillies game. And the whole time, all I'm thinking about is, I get to get out of here and have this cape, right? Or this mask, or this shield to hide behind, and go drink like I really want to drink. And whatever this nurse is putting in my arm, I'm gonna go find, and I'm going to use as much of it as I can, because I feel fantastic. And the thing that I think people misinterpret

• 39:04Speaker 01

  about opioid use is the initial high actually gives you energy, it makes you, it allows you to focus. So when you're dosed properly and you're on opioids, it's not this nodding out, overdosing presentation. It's actually someone who's like really alert and awake and focused. And I experienced that. And then I became convinced that I needed it to do everything in my life.

• 39:31Rich Roll?

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• 40:12Rich Roll?

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• 40:52Rich Roll?

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• 41:34Rich Roll?

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• 42:09Rich Roll?

  Particularly for someone who doesn't really understand addiction or doesn't have somebody in their life who is suffering in this way. Like, the reason, the initial impetus for using is because it works. Like, it works, and it makes your life better in the beginning. You feel better. You can be more productive. You have eliminated whatever emotional pain was causing you to feel a certain way that maybe even unconsciously you weren't aware of prior to that. It's a survival strategy for functioning better in the world. It's just that it always turns, and it always ends badly. But it doesn't begin badly. Nobody

• 42:51Rich Roll?

  starts drinking because it's not working for them.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  It works. It's a medicine. It works.

• 42:58Rich Roll?

  And it's predictable.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:00Rich Roll?

  And it's never going to be the same high as the first high, but you're damn sure you're gonna chase that all the way to, all the way to the grave, you know, without, without some kind of intervention preventing you from that.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you think about the adolescent kid who gets stoned for the first time, and they're running in the field, and little do they know, that is the highest they're ever gonna get, you know, like that, like, and, and guys like me are gonna go chase that feeling for as much as I can.

• 43:33Rich Roll?

  I don't know you that well, but you're a resourceful motherfucker. Like, you're, you've got a hustle game to you, you know? And so I can just see that young person out there.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  I hit the drug addict.

• 43:44Rich Roll?

  With the hustle on.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  The drug addict jackpot. I get out of the hospital. Okay, so I'm a hero now in the town. I've survived a brain.

• 43:54Rich Roll?

  Right. You have a get out of jail free card.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  I have an image that I can take, and this is during doctor shopping. I can go to any crooked doctor and say, I need painkillers, because I have this very, very real image of this thing getting cut out of my head. And all I have to go say is, oh, yeah, my neck. You know, like.

• 44:12Rich Roll?

  The timing is perfect also, because those crooked doctors were everywhere.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Purdue Pharma, OxyContin, and, and it's sad.

• 44:19Rich Roll?

  How do you even begin that process? Like, how do you find the first, like, I was never like an opioid person, a pill person, so I never had to play that game of, you know, chasing scripts and stuff like that. Like, how does that work?

• 44:34Speaker 01

  I don't think I even had to work that hard. I don't even know that the non-crooked doctors really understood what we were looking at. I think doctors that were pretty well-intentioned were writing scripts for a lot more painkillers than they should have been.

• 44:49Rich Roll?

  So you're just opening up the phone book and calling doctors and making appointments?

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's no computer systems at the time. CVS isn't tracking how many scripts are being filled all over the place. I mean, this is the Stone Age in terms of, and I used it, but I was careful. Like, I didn't, I, people were starting to get caught. People were starting to get found out. And I wasn't sharing, so I kind of had my stash.

• 45:12Rich Roll?

  You could keep that shell game going for a while, right? Before that house of cards starts to fall on top of you.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:18Rich Roll?

  How long did that go on?

• 45:20Speaker 01

  I got, I mean, like, the deeper I got into it, the sloppier I got. And eventually.

• 45:26Rich Roll?

  And it's oxy mostly?

• 45:28Speaker 01

  It's, so, so there is a progression that we, that we, that we know about and that I talk about a lot. I get, so I get out of that brain tumor experience. I'm now.

• 45:39Rich Roll?

  And you're fine. There's no recidivism or anything like that.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  I've never been healthier. Back then, I mean, I was fine in the sense that they got it out. I was, it fueled my drug addiction, and I was very unhealthy. I wasn't working out. I was not doing anything really other than working, chasing drugs and drinking, and trying to maintain this relationship with my college sweetheart, which the first thing that I decided to do once I was healed is get on one knee and say, will you marry me? So this is like, this is like, you know, I'm 24 when I get this surgery, and so it's like Memorial Day of 08, I guess. And I'm, I'm like, in it. Like, my wife, or girlfriend at the time, is starting to see like the half-frozen vodka bottles, because like, I'm starting

• 46:26Speaker 01

  to do the water and the thing. Like, I'm starting to hide and hustle. And still, she says yes. I get down on one knee, like a good, good alcoholic, you know, managing my life. And she says yes. And then we get married one year later, so June of 2020, 2009. It's the weekend that Michael Jackson dies. So my wedding, if you could picture it, is like,

• 46:51Speaker 01

  me and all my other 25-year-old friends, probably one of the first, like, open bar weddings, Michael Jackson music everywhere, and it's just a party. I mean, it's just debauchery. And there's no, there was no ceremony behind it. There was no emotion. There was no love. I mean, I, I feel bad. She was a beautiful woman, and her family was awesome. But she was public enemy number one to my, to my addiction.

• 47:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But you're just checking boxes. I mean, I have a similar sort of story, a little bit different, but similar in that way. Like, you're just, you're just doing what you're supposed to. Oh, this is the age when I'm supposed to do this, and I'll get down on the knee, and I'll do, check this box. There's no sense of like, is this the one for me? You're just moving forward with your life.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  No purpose.

• 47:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  No curiosity. That's why I always talk about that word so much, curiosity. Like, I didn't have a curious thought until I think I was in rehab the second time, you know? And so what happened was, we got married. We took our honeymoon to St. Thomas. I remember going on this honeymoon and saying to myself, I'm not gonna do drugs. I'm gonna like detox myself. And I kind of did.

• 48:05Rich Roll?

  How aware is she at this point?

• 48:07Speaker 01

  She doesn't know about the drugs.

• 48:09Rich Roll?

  She sees the vodka bottles and stuff, but not the, not the pills?

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Based on just like sex life alone, I mean, the opioids kind of take that away. So she has to know something, like, I'm unhealthy, right? Like, I'm unhealthy. Physically, I am 235, you know, like, it's just not a good life, but she thinks that's just what she signed up for. Life of the party.

• 48:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  You know?

• 48:37Rich Roll?

  Just cocktail hour at the, at the country club.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Bullshit. Get people together. You know, go to the Eagles games, go to the Phillies games, always tailgating, always running around. But that's just who Zach is.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we go on this honeymoon and I remember the second that plane landed back in Philly, I, I think it was like flip phones at the time. I cracked it open and texted my drug dealer. And I was immediately,

• 49:08Speaker 01

  you know, and they talk about in recovery, like no human power, right? Like if love could have got me sober, I would have gotten sober at a very young age, but here I am newly married, great job, house, dog, couple of cars in the driveway. Like I actually did the thing I set out to do.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  But I'm miserable and

• 49:30Speaker 01

  I have no desire of stopping. There are no intention to stop.

• 49:35Rich Roll?

  What eventuated the first

• 49:37Speaker 01

  First rehab?

• 49:38Rich Roll?

  Treatment stint.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  You went to rehab, right?

• 49:40Rich Roll?

  I did. Yeah.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  So I would go to rehab tomorrow. It's the best.

• 49:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And now it's like amazing.

• 49:48Rich Roll?

  You mean, I can just hit pause on everything and go and like talk to people and sort out my shit?

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Workout, be fed, you know? Oh God, if only I knew. So whatever, it progressed. I was, I, I got to a point where I was smoking pills. So basically like it's caught you like you're chasing the dragon. So you're putting these oxycontin's on this tin foil and you're like, you're heating it up below and it's like the pill slides down and there's like a trail of smoke and you're just chasing it, you know, and like

• 50:14Rich Roll?

  I've never even heard about that. I didn't, I didn't know people did that. Wow. I don't know. I know about chewing them up.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  And it was a very intense quicker high. But I just remember like my lungs and like I was coughing up shit. Like it was, it was bad, you know, it was bad. And the paraphernalia starts to kind of be like popping up all over. Like my wife found a straw one time and said like, what's this? But it wasn't, it wasn't long. I got married June of oh nine. I'm in rehab for the first time November of 10.

• 50:46Rich Roll?

  Was there an intervention or how, how did that happen?

• 50:49Speaker 01

  No, my mom and wife were at a local bar, classic like suburban story, drinking, having a glass of wine, catching up. I had just visited my dad because I had owed some money to a bookie. So this is back before online gambling and I had to, it was like, I was down $5,000 to this guy who was threatening to break my kneecap. My dad agreed to pay him off. So I'm now back at my house, you know, waiting for my wife to come home. And this is in addition to all the drugs and everything else I'm doing. My buddy, Matt, went up to my mom and wife at the bar and basically said to them, Zach's in trouble. And I'm going to be the one to tell you.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  The funny part about that is this guy ends up going to rehab like five years. You know, like spot it, you got it kind of shit.

• 51:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  So he was like a hero in the moment, but I, I got him back. Um, so my mom shows up at my house at night and like, what the hell are you doing here? She goes, and we know everything. We know you're doing drugs. You need to get help. And I said, fine, you're right. I'm going to get help. I shit you not, I get in my car, this bad old like Chevy Malibu. And I had seen a billboard for this treatment center in South Jersey. And I drove that night to the treatment center and I was think that I was like their first walk-in customer. I knocked on the detox or said like, hey, I'm here. I need help. You know, you can't just walk into a rehab. You need an appointment. You gotta like, so I stayed, I slept kind of like overnight in the parking lot or whatever.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  And then I was able to check in the next morning and I stayed there for, for 28 days and I was just completely full of shit. I was not ready.

• 52:32Rich Roll?

  It was just, let's get everyone off my back so I can get back to

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Keep the job.

• 52:36Rich Roll?

  Do. Yeah.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  You know, like I'm gonna, I'm gonna do what I've done my entire life, which is like, I'm going to be the president of the rehab and I'm gonna, you know, do this thing perfectly so that no one can question me. And I, I kind of did that. Become the leader of the community and it's hilarious. Like, I don't know if I thought it was going on my resume or what, but the one thing that happened in that treatment stay, and this is a nod to Lois Wilson, who is the wife of Bill Wilson, who created Al-Anon, which is a support group for family members. My wife had started going to Al-Anon meetings. And so she showed up there, uh, at the treatment program for a weekend of like, they called it the family matrix program. And we wrote this contract, you know, that they had probably done a thousand times, like this bullshit.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  If Zach drinks again. And, um, I signed that up. Okay, great. Like you're not going to kick me out. You're not gonna like, you know who I am kind of shit.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  It's two weeks. Two weeks I made it.

• 53:38Rich Roll?

  That was it.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  And I woke up on a Tuesday morning and I had, I had heard about heroin in rehab. And so back to when I was telling you about the dime bags that we would buy and pick the seeds and the stems out. So Camden, New Jersey is about 15 minutes from where I grew up in Haddonfield and Camden is one of the largest open air drug markets out there. So I woke up on a Wednesday morning, my wife's a teacher, two weeks out of rehab.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Had the thought, I'm going to go drink. I went, I bought one of these $10 pints of vodka, drank the whole thing down. And within a half hour, I'm going right back into Camden where I had bought weed, you know, 15 years ago or 10 years ago in high school. And asked the guy for dope and he had it. And before I even did that bag of heroin, that night, my wife went to bed and I went out to go get it out of the car and she heard the car like beep beep.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  And she came in and I had it on the table. She's, what the hell are you doing?

• 54:42Speaker 01

  And I started crying and she started crying and

• 54:46Speaker 01

  that was the last night I slept in that house. Like kudos to her. She had done some work and she said to me in such a beautiful way. I'll never forget it. She was like, I,

• 54:57Speaker 01

  I love you, but I don't love this. And I love myself a lot more than this.

• 55:05Rich Roll?

  Good for her.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Saved my life.

• 55:07Rich Roll?

  Most people don't have that level of self-awareness or, or self-respect to make that kind of move.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Strong woman. And she's, I mean, I don't, I think part of like, I, I went back and made amends to her. And it was funny when I went on The Bachelorette, some outlets reached out to her and she had some quotes and I didn't, I just let her, you know, like, I think my sponsor and some people in my lifetime, I said like, like let her live, let her do her thing. And I'm grateful for her and she definitely saved my life. I think my mom and sister are still like in touch and it's cool. Like sobriety has given me that, like they, they can do that. And so that was January of 11 and I end up in rehab the last time, August of 11. And that eight months, Rich, was, I mean, I could sit here for two hours and tell you all the stories. You talk about being like a hustler on the good side, like I was a hustler on the very, very bad side.

• 56:00Rich Roll?

  Did you start smoking heroin and then did you become a, a, an IV user also?

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Shooting heroin, smoking crack. Shooting heroin, smoking crack.

• 56:12Rich Roll?

  What's interesting is you went and you got dope without being indoctrinated into it, like being around people and watching them do it, or having them hand it to you or.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  People ask me all the time, like can, can rehab be counterproductive? And in some ways, my first time in treatment, I was around some guys who,

• 56:33Speaker 01

  it piqued my curiosity and I'd be lying if I, if I, if I told you that it didn't. Once you're introduced to the, the open air drug market and you don't need a drug dealer and you don't need anything but a car and a couple bucks in your pocket, it's game over. Cause now I can just totally isolate. I don't need anyone to fuel this thing.

• 56:52Rich Roll?

  So eight months of insanity and just an acceleration of the whole thing.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  And no one knows I'm doing heroin. I never did drugs with anyone. I kept it to myself.

• 57:03Rich Roll?

  There's also a lot of misconceptions around the heroin user, this idea that, you know, they're gaunt, you know, people with like open sores on their arms, lying in the gutter, like heroin is tricky. Like there are a lot of people who can use heroin and you would have no idea.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was in a lot of pain and I, I always talk about, you go to any hospital in the country right now, they're basically legally injecting people with heroin all day long. You know, and this is, I've never had cancer. I know some people that have, and I understand the pain there is like very significant. And the thing that they're giving them to try to like, give that person some relief is, is opioids, is, is injecting Dilaudid into their soul. And at that point in my life, like I am in so much pain. The only thing giving me that warm hug or that relief is injecting heroin.

• 57:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I had this back surgery about a year ago and I was on a lot of Dilaudid, you know, for, for four days.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Did you try to be the hero and like get through it with that, like, or you knew?

• 58:08Rich Roll?

  No, there was no way. I mean, this surgery was, I mean, even, even on that, like the pain was insane, you know? So I wasn't really getting, you know, the, the high version of it because of the pain. Uh, and then I was on oxy for like two weeks, uh, after that, which I needed, but I could start to feel the pull. Like I, I got off it no problem and opioids weren't really my thing anyway. But you can just, I could just, you could feel the, like the inner addict awakening, you know, like that, like compulsion of craving. And then that, and then the kind of covetous like, oh, how can I like, extend this or like make it, you know, like make it last longer or, you know, all of those thoughts start to come up, which is really scary.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Yes. It was terrifying. I mean, look, I went, this story I'll give you, and I'm just so grateful to be sharing this time with you. I woke up, I don't know, I was at a Phillies game or whatever, somewhere in that eight months, I had gone to some event and I had woken up the next morning and I had blacked out. And as a good drug addict, always saves one dose for the morning so you don't get sick. And I woke up in a panic because I couldn't find my medicine. And my wife went off to, or whatever happened, I, maybe I was living at home or wherever it was. And I panicked and it wouldn't have been my wife at the time, but I guess it was my dad.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  I was living at home and he went off to work and I called my friend and I said, there's something wrong with me. Like there's this pain in my side. And I went through, I got my appendix out. There was nothing wrong with me.

• 59:50Rich Roll?

  No way.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Chasing, chasing, chasing the high. Cause I had known that like you don't actually need your appendix. So you talk about hustle.

• 59:59Rich Roll?

  That is, that is one of the all time great stories, like incredible, incredible stuff, Zach. You went and had your, you had your appendix removed so that you could get.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  So the hot, so like, you know, I started down the road of this plan and, and I remember because, so I get put in this hospital bed in Voorhees, New Jersey, and the nurse comes in and it's my brother's college sweetheart, or high school sweetheart. Jen, she's like, oh my God, Zach, you're here. Like is everything, I knew right away, this is great. She's gonna believe me. And then the doctor ends up being from my hometown. And when you, when you have, uh, I'm, I'm sorry, not, not appendix, my gallbladder, I have a gallbladder.

• 1:00:41Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, gallbladder, gallbladder, not, not.

• 1:00:43Rich Roll?

  That seems, that's even more severe to me.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  But the gallbladder really, I mean, it helps you process fatty foods, I guess, is, but like I, I haven't needed it.

• 1:00:52Rich Roll?

  The gallbladder seems more important than the appendix.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  I haven't needed it. I mean, I haven't needed it. So, so I make the decision that I'm, I call my buddy, he picks me up, he drives me to the hospital. I had, I'm like, in my mind, okay, gallbladder. And they can't, you can't really test for it. Like you can drink some of the liquids and you can see, but essentially it's kind of.

• 1:01:13Rich Roll?

  Did you know that going in?

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm learning as I go. It's kind of self diagnosed and.

• 1:01:17Rich Roll?

  This is an all time hustle.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  And I remember, so they're pumping me with Dilaudid up till the surgery. There was like a little period where I had to stop because I had to drink the thing. And I started withdrawing in the room and fought through that. And then it was anticlimactic because I get the surgery. It's not a major surgery. It's laparoscopic. They kind of just suck the thing out. I remember before going under the guy, Dr. Grabiak says to me, you know what you're doing today? I said, yeah, I'm getting my, getting my gallbladder out. He said, okay. So I, I feel like there was like a hint of him like knowing that I was full of shit, but I went under, I woke up and I remember they maybe gave me like one or two more doses of Dilaudid and sent me home with some like weak ass Percocet. And so like my plan kind of backfired, but

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  what it did is like during the time I was in the hospital, a paycheck hit. And so then I was able to get out and get back to.

• 1:02:12Rich Roll?

  You were just bridging the gap between paychecks.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:17Rich Roll?

  The lengths we will go.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, the lengths we will go. So that's one of the surgeries, that's one of the stories. And then my last day, I mean, I've heard you talk about rock bottom a lot. And so if that wasn't it, I don't know what is, but I, I made it to like August of that year and my family and I, we go to the Jersey Shore every summer. We still do. It's a really special time of year. And so we were in Avalon, New Jersey, and we had rented a house. And my brother had just welcomed my nephew, Jack, into the world. So I'm coming up on 15 years sober. He's a senior. So like, he's like two or three. It's the first nephew. My family's all together and I am just, I

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  am in it. And this tropical storm, Irene starts kind of like coming up the coast. And I know in my head, I have to get out of there because if I don't get out of there, I'm gonna get stuck with this tropical storm and I'm gonna get sick. I'm gonna go into withdrawals. And so I take off, I take seven of like.

• 1:03:17Rich Roll?

  But you need a good excuse to leave, don't you?

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  I was gonna go to the Eagles preseason game.

• 1:03:21Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  On a Thursday night. So my dad gave me this, it was actual paper tickets back then. And you would sell tickets on Craigslist. So I, I went and I sold these seven tickets to some guy in Philly for like a hundred bucks. And I went and copped drugs and I parked my car on the side of the road and threw a surprise party for one. And cops came up on me and I remember the cop I kind of had known or been around. And I thought, this is great. I'm gonna be able to talk my way out of this again. And he said, Zach, you're going to jail. Like you're, there's crack pipes and there's some scratching lottery tickets. I mean, it's a really gnarly scene. And they arrest me, they give me a DUI, they

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  give me possession charges. I go into this jail cell. I tell them, I don't want to call anyone. I don't, like, I don't want to use my call. I have no interest in doing anything other than just like sitting in this jail cell and starting to feel like crap, I guess. They let me out the next morning. I walk back into Camden where I'd been kind of hanging out. And the story is I went, I broke into my dad's office. My dad, you know, runs a pretty good company. I was able to get in to his office, made out a check for myself for $5,000. And I had two drug dealers and we were gonna start a business, you know, like we were gonna, I was gonna cash this check and we were gonna go, you know, do

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  something. And I'll never forget, I walk into this PNC bank in Camden, New Jersey. I have this check in my hand. At the time, I'm probably like 250 pounds. So I'm basically smoking crack and shooting heroin all day. And then I'm taking antipsychotic medication at night, Seracquel, and just ordering Papa John's and just eating food to go to sleep. Like it was a disaster of a cycle. And the story gets me every time. I, I went into this bank and there was, um, the bank teller behind the counter took one look at me and she knew something was up. So I handed her this check and she kind of looks me up and down. And at that moment, she could have had me arrested, right? Like she could have called her manager,

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  but instead she said like, one minute, Mr. Clark. And she left and she went and called my dad. And I always joke, like it wasn't a therapist, it wasn't a sponsor, it wasn't a psychiatrist, it wasn't my mom or dad that saved my life. It was this bank teller, Rhonda Jackson. Cause she went, she called my dad and my dad happened to be in his office and like answered the phone call from the unknown phone number. And they had filed a missing person report and he just said, Rhonda, please keep my son there. Like please do whatever you can. Like we were hoping to get this phone call. And I just kind of, I remember sitting in that bank, kind of looking around. It's this cavernous bank. It's this old, old building. And Rhonda would check, oh, just a minute, sir. Like I'm working

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  on getting your funds or whatever it was. And my dad, white as a ghost, came through the doors of that bank and I get, I get goosebumps. And he walked up to me and it was like this, you know, long moment and this long embrace. And he kind of just whispered in my ear like, son, we're going home. And home meant I was going back to rehab, but more importantly, it meant I was leaving that life. I was leaving that existence at 27 years of just pain and debauchery and lying. And I always say like, yeah, I had a pretty privileged upbringing, but there was a shitload of pain those last couple of years.

• 1:06:47Rich Roll?

  What was it about that experience that made it different and instilled you with the willingness to change?

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  I wish I could give it to everyone. I don't know. I don't know why I'm so lucky. And that's probably the thing I struggle with the most, just being around the stuff so much. Why me?

• 1:07:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  And why, why? I, I, I mean.

• 1:07:15Rich Roll?

  Willingness is a mystical spiritual energy. Like you can't conjure it, you know, it visits you, uh, when you're ready to receive it, I think. That makes it tricky, especially with family members. You know, there's this saying in AA, like be willing to be willing. But that's like asking somebody to want something they don't want. Like I don't, I guess you can sort of inhabit this willingness to be willing, but for me, like I, I sort of take issue with that. Like willing, that's not really how willingness operates. Like it is handed down by God at a very specific period of time. You can't make yourself ready

• 1:07:59Rich Roll?

  until the universe, God, your higher power of your choosing decides it to be so.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  I don't get it.

• 1:08:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  I don't get it. I agree with you. That was a very spiritual moment. That was a very

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  energy aligning moment. Rhonda Jackson is someone who's still in my life. Like I still am in touch with her.

• 1:08:23Rich Roll?

  You go, I was gonna ask, do you go visit her?

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. She's fucking awesome, man. And just like such a good person, hardworking. And here I am, like, I grew up in this

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  white angle, like this WASP-y ass town. And there's this black woman who's like showing me love and kindness. And like, it just, it was just such a beautiful life moment for me. Having lived somewhat sheltered

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  upbringing, you know, and that's why, part of why I love New York in my life today is I've just been exposed to so many beautiful humans.

• 1:08:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you end up in treatment a second time?

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I went to treatment. I went to a place in Pennsylvania called Karen and I stayed for, for four and a half months, which was what I needed.

• 1:09:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I think you need that time. The whole twenty eight day thing, like I'm curious around, you know, you as somebody who, you know, lives in this world now. The idea that you're gonna go someplace, especially if you're not going in with that, like, real willingness to do the work. Like, is that a sufficient solution to set you on a, kind of, creating a foundation of sobriety?

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  For some people.

• 1:09:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Not for me.

• 1:09:38Rich Roll?

  I mean, I went for a hundred days, so, close to that, but I needed that. I need, I, I couldn't have done that in twenty, in twenty eight days was not enough.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did it once, twenty eight days. And, and the thing that I just remember about that experience is that no one wanted to hear from me. Like, I was at a point in my life where I was not, people were not picking up my calls. And so that, I think, fueled a little bit of my willingness, just in the sense that, and they weren't being mean about it. They were just like, you gotta figure your own shit out. And, uh, I remember, I tell this story a lot, I was in detox. It was me and this kid Matt, who was a really kind of good-looking kid from, from, uh, North Jersey, and then these two girls that were kind of age-appropriate. And I just realized the first couple of days in detox, I mean, I'm, we're all a mess. These girls keep paying all this attention to Matt and not to me.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  What's going on here? Have I completely lost every ability to pick up a girl? You know, I'm in a detox and I can't pick someone up?

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  And I, I, it was the second night or third night there, I remember looking in the mirror, and I think it was the first time I'd really seen myself in ten years. Like, really actually seeing, like, looked back at the person. And it scared the shit out of me. And I'll never forget it. And I just remember making a promise to myself in that moment that, like, I don't ever, I don't wanna feel this way again.

• 1:11:08Rich Roll?

  Was there a sense of relief that you could finally just give the game up?

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Yes. I knew.

• 1:11:18Rich Roll?

  It's one thing to achieve sobriety and realize, like, oh, this is the most important thing in my life. And it's another thing to then decide you're gonna devote your life to serving others to the extent that it's gonna be your career and your profession. Like, where did that come from, or how did that come about?

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Yes, I mean, I, so I, I always joke, I, I went through rehab for four and a half months, and then it's classic, it's like time to pick aftercare, and I really, I was not welcomed back home in South Jersey, Philly area. My brother was living in DC, like, they didn't really want me there. And for some reason, I think my counselor put Portland, Maine, and New York City on the, on, like, on the map for me. And I went and I visited New York on a pass to kind of, I guess, be introduced to whatever I was gonna be introduced to. And I had never really partied in this city. And I had the opportunity to go to a meeting on a Saturday morning out in, in Brooklyn, and

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  there was probably like a hundred and fifty people in that room, and I'd never experienced anything like it. Then they said, we're gonna go to a show of hands, right? Like, we're gonna let people share now. And hands, I mean, thirty hands flew in the air for people that wanted to proudly announce their alcoholism and then share whatever they were gonna share. And I fell in love with that energy. I just, I fell in love with the idea that I could have this every day if I choose to come here. And so I made the decision to come to New York. And I moved here in January of, uh, twenty twelve, and I haven't left.

• 1:12:57Rich Roll?

  Moved here without a job. Even though you're from Jersey, you'd never lived in New York City.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  South Jersey, yeah.

• 1:13:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, most people, this is where the end of their using, this is the end of the line, you know, part of the using story is somewhere in an after-party in New York City, but that was not your experience.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  I showed up, man. And I've been showing up every day for like fifteen years now. Like, it's, it's the one thing, I'm not the smartest guy in the room, I'm not the fastest, I'm not the strongest, I'm not the best-looking, but the thing that no one, you've never missed a Monday, like, I, I, I show up. And when I showed up in New York City, like, I made a promise to myself that I was just gonna do the things that I was gonna, being asked to do. And that started with recovery, but that translated into business, that translated into relationships, that translated into really every facet of my life. And that's why when I speak about recovery, it almost feels, it feels silly, because the things that I've learned here apply to everyone.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  And they're so simple. Sit in the front row, get to the thing early, introduce yourself. All the little things I started to learn those first several months in New York City, I still do today.

• 1:14:07Rich Roll?

  Not to mention, hold yourself accountable for your actions, make amends, make a, uh, you know, do a daily inventory, like, all of these principles, all of these practices and tools, they really are tools for life that anybody and everybody could benefit from. They're particularly applicable to the addict and the alcoholic, but they have broad appeal for anybody who's going through anything.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there's a whole movement right now with some of these folks that are choosing not to drink just because they're choosing not to drink. And you know, I encourage those folks to make other changes too, because just putting the drugs and the alcohol down for me was, was I, I could kind of do that, I feel like. I mean, like, to a certain degree.

• 1:14:52Rich Roll?

  But there's a huge canyon in between abstinence and emotional sobriety. So maybe talk a little bit about that, because I think also in the digital space and in the podcast space, with this kind of amazing resurgence of, of, you know, people putting, putting the bottle down. Uh, not enough emphasis or education around that distinction.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  I, I would be terrified of what they call a dry, being a dry drunk, which is someone that

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  does not drink or do drugs, and also does not work on themselves.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  That, that sounds worse than drinking to me.

• 1:15:34Rich Roll?

  It's tempting because that person will think, well, I put that down, like, now that I've made that change, like, I'm good. Because that was the problem. Not understanding that that actually was a solution to a problem. That without that extra work is a problem that is unaddressed.

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think for me, it's the honest self-reflection. Like, can I actually lay the sword down and understand that I am not perfect, and I do not have all the answers, and I've certainly harmed some people. And the point of this whole thing that we call life is not about doing it perfectly. And there is something that the person who maybe isn't willing to explore what emotional sobriety is, or to actually do the work, is holding on to. And that's sad to me. It's pride, it's ego, you know, it's control. And that was the thing that, when I got sober and I, and I moved to New York and I started to work steps, and I started to go to therapy, and I started to understand and give myself permission to actually

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  do some of the work and really heal.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  That I was introduced to a life that I actually didn't know was possible. And they, they talk about it a little bit, right? This fourth dimension of existence, and they, Bill Wilson uses this, it's really like, you know, wild language, but it's true.

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  And it's a, it's a big canyon, man. It's a big canyon.

• 1:17:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The program really teaches you the power of

• 1:17:10Rich Roll?

  humility and vulnerability as connective tissue, like your sense of connection to other people in the room is a function of this kind of shared openness of kind of owning your past and being liberated from it, which gives you the ability to kind of share it openly and vulnerably. And when you hear that, you can't help but feel connected and closer to these people. And it's so powerful. You want to take that into your everyday life. At the same time, this is something I've been thinking a lot about lately. I'm curious your thoughts on this. There is this thing in the program where because it is

• 1:17:54Rich Roll?

  about action-based tools, this curiosity around like, why, why did I start doing this in the first place? Like, what made me an alcoholic? We're kind of actively discouraged from looking in the rearview in that way. We're told to take the contrary action, make the amends, et cetera. It's very forward-facing in that sense. But the longer I've been in this world of mental health through the podcast, the more aware I've become of the importance of trying to understand, you know, what gave rise to this in the first place. I think we know a lot more now about the genesis of addiction. There was this idea like, well, it was in my family,

• 1:18:36Rich Roll?

  or it's genetic and, you know, it's, it's the disease model, right?

• 1:18:42Rich Roll?

  But we now know that early childhood experiences are inextricably linked to how our brain gets wired and these patterns of thought and behavior that we begin to kind of perpetuate and are hamstrung by as adults. So where are your thoughts around how that works as somebody who supplements their 12-step program with therapy?

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think for me, what I learned early on is that there's a lot of this talk in, in the rooms around like giving this power away and turning our power. And like, there's also this element for me of like taking my power back. And saying to my, like, I am going to actually give myself the ability and permission to go figure out why I am the way that I am. And I don't believe when I sit down with someone who's newly exploring recovery, or they end up being a patient in our program, I don't try to figure out whether it was hereditary or manufactured, or where their substance use disorder came from. I try to help them come to grips with the fact that they have it.

• 1:19:53Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:19:54Rich Roll?

  The house is on fire.

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:55Rich Roll?

  You have to deal with that.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  You did not, typically if you're sitting across from me, um, you know, life is not, yeah, not going, like, I'm the bad guy.

• 1:20:03Rich Roll?

  We don't need to get to the why part. We need to deal with the what, the immediate what.

• 1:20:08Speaker 01

  If I show up in a blazer and a white t-shirt and I'm delivering some bad news, it's probably not like your best, your best day. And, and even that's changed. Like, we don't do intervention. Like, when I first started working in this field, I would do these interventions where we'd basically bring the family together and we'd read the letters and we'd pull them out of the home and there'd be this cataclysmic moment and you know, in a lot of ways, that's trauma.

• 1:20:32Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  You know, and so like, when you start to talk about some of the things you're asking me about, our, our clinical director, you know, often says, and it's not hers, it's just recycled content. But, you know, trauma is something that happened to you that shouldn't have, or something that should have happened that didn't. You know, and that's very, very applicable to most humans, I would say.

• 1:20:54Rich Roll?

  Your pain is your pain.

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:56Rich Roll?

  And you can compare it to somebody else's, but it doesn't matter because when it happened to you, it's just what happened. And these early experiences that we have become formative. But when the house is on fire, you gotta put the fire out. But to your point around interventions, like the recidivism rate has to be super high with that because it goes back to this conversation around willingness. Like, you can't instill willingness. You can scare people into agreeing to go into treatment, but whether or not it's going to stick is really uh, about that person's relationship to themself and to their higher power.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, look, I believe more than ever that

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  folks struggling like I struggled, substance use, like, are just, they say that you are the age of your first drink and like, I, I actually believe that. And so if I'm really approaching this thing through the lens of like, this is a child sitting next to me, a child. It makes it a little bit easier. And I had this experience this past weekend. I was at the shore with my nieces and nephews. And I am an asshole. Like, I, I am the uncle that spoils the shit out of my nieces and nephews. And we had gotten back from the beach and I was kind of hosing some shit down. And my, my one nephew, Liam, came back. He's like, Uncle Zach, can I help you? I said, absolutely. Like, spray this hose and hose this thing down.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  And then the other one came back and he wanted to start washing some stuff. And we proceeded to have this two-hour hang in the driveway, which was so beautiful. My phone was away.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  And there was no big toy. There was no sexy thing. It was just me and my nephews. And we ended up giving each other showers and we put the goggles on and we were saying it was a car wash. And my point in telling me that's the story is like, it's not about the nice toy. Like, those kids just want to be seen. They just want to be seen. And that's what I believe is true in, in substance abuse. Like, most people that I sit across have this deep feeling that they have not been seen and that their feelings have not been validated. And so even if I don't, even if I think they're full of shit, am I willing to say like, tell me more about that? And, and like have a response like, I'm sorry you feel that way?

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  Just to move them a little bit closer to this idea that they might be willing to put their hand up and ask for a change. Where in the past, you used to be like, get in the fucking car, dude, we're going.

• 1:23:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Well,

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  what ground are we starting on?

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  And so it's just this whole thing, and you've probably experienced in 15, 20 years of being sober, like what works, what doesn't, like, I don't, do we really know?

• 1:23:48Rich Roll?

  So much of it goes back to parenting. I think parenting is so essential. Uh, you know, I grew up in an era where, you know, sort of, you know, I'm Gen X, I'm the, you know, we're the latchkey generation. Like, nobody I knew had emotionally mature, sensitive parents who were attuned to the vicissitudes of their child's, you know, kind of interior lives. It just wasn't a thing, you know? And so you learn to be self-sufficient in those situations. And you develop this kind of protective shield that allows you to function in the world

• 1:24:31Rich Roll?

  in, in a situation in which you know you're not really being seen and validated. And opening up about your emotions is not going to be reciprocated. So there's no point in doing that. So it's no surprise that then you're going to find devices to make you feel better or put yourself in a situation that, you know, kind of like makes that pain go away, whatever that is going to be.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, recovery, and it's a thing that I wish everyone could experience, gave me this opportunity to say, I'm not okay. And then receive this giant hug from the world. And be told like, but you're gonna be, like, you're actually, you're actually gonna be okay. And it's why I take this shit so seriously. You know, going back to that question about my mission, like,

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  my mission is that people don't have to live in pain and suffer anymore. And, and I do believe there are multiple ways. There's multiple pathways to recovery. I can tell you exactly how I did it. You can tell someone exactly how you did it. You can go out and try some other ways.

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  But like the bullshit around 12 step for me is like when I get someone that wants to fight 12 step, I say, all right, dude, that's fine. But that's not an excuse to do nothing. And that's the thing that I see way too often is like 12 steps are cold, fuck those people. And I'm just gonna kind of like do it my way in this like lonely endeavor, which never ends well.

• 1:26:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's a version of saying, well, all right, you just need to go out and you need to gather some more evidence for yourself, you know? I have a version of this conversation all the time, you do every single day. And I'm on the receiving end of countless emails and DMs every single day. I'm suffering. I can't stop drinking. I can't whatever, you know, I don't know what to do. Tell me what it's like, if you're on my channel, like you already know what to do. You want somebody to either tell you it's okay to do that, or you're looking for an easier and softer way, because you don't actually want to do the work. And a lot of the discourse around like, well, A doesn't work, or, you know, I tried it and blah, blah, blah. Like, you're not actually availing yourself of the work. You're not

• 1:26:55Rich Roll?

  going in with an open heart and an open mind. And with a degree of willingness, in order for all of this to function in the way that it was designed to, you want to just be able to do something else, or tell you it's okay to not go do that, so that you can not have to take full responsibility.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, one of my favorite lines I hear and people that try therapy for the first time is I didn't get anything out of it. And my response is, what'd you bring to it? Did you actually show up there in earnest and share and get vulnerable and do the things that you're being asked to do in a therapeutic setting? Because if you didn't, nothing's gonna change.

• 1:27:31Rich Roll?

  Sure. What is the advice that you have for family members and for parents who are watching a loved one spin out and suffer?

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:40Rich Roll?

  Because this is so difficult, and it goes back to willingness. Also, like, you're watching this train wreck happen in real time, and there's that sense of powerlessness, like, you don't know what to do, you don't know how to be helpful. Should you intervene? Should you let them hit their rock bottom? But it's terrifying, because the stakes couldn't be higher. Every day you wake up, you're waiting for that phone call, that your worst nightmare. This is something that you're just on the front lines of every single day.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, in a very succinct way, I feel like the family member, the identified patient is the drug for the family member. So the same way, the same way that the identified patients or me, my story is going out and seeking heroin, and seeking alcohol, and seeking crack cocaine and this like relief, the parent is going to that person. And it's almost, that's what's kind of getting them high almost, right? Like this story, this cycle that they're trapped in, that they just can't get out of. So they're almost active in an addiction, the same way that the identified patient is. In a lot of ways, it's similar, and just as insane and insidious as it is talking to someone who, again, is the identified patient

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  talking to the family member, because I can make suggestions about some things that you should do. I don't know that you're actually gonna do that. And what I can say is that, having done this work for many, many years, the families that come into our program, and the data suggests, the when the family is willing to jump in and do the work with the patient, the outcome typically is better.

• 1:29:22Rich Roll?

  What about the earnest family member, when the patient isn't willing to do the work?

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the first thing I'm gonna say, and probably the most important thing is,

• 1:29:37Speaker 01

  I can tell you all this stuff, if you have fear that your loved one's life is in danger,

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  death by suicide, overdose, concerning behavior, you should never feel embarrassed to call the authorities. Because you are not gonna be able to live with yourself if something was to happen, and you didn't pick up that phone. So that's the first thing that I always kind of coach families on. And that's a fine line to walk. I get that. I fully understand how loaded that is. But the the old adage, better safe than sorry, absolutely applies there. Once you've kind of moved past that first layer, I believe that, one, you need to do your own work. So you need to get your own therapist. Hopefully, you'll go to some Al-Anon meetings, you'll find your own community, anything that you can do to stop thinking

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  about that person all day, every day. Because what we need to do is show that person that you're actually willing to change. So the family member starts to change, and I notice this with my own parents. You know, I remember the time I asked my mom for $20 in between my first two rehabs, and she said, no. And she didn't say no in a mean way. She said, Zach, I'm doing my own work, and I'm trying to protect myself.

• 1:30:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:56Speaker 01

  So I can't give you this $20.

• 1:30:58Rich Roll?

  This is new.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  And I was like, fuck. Okay, like, we gotta, we gotta go back to the drawing board here, and that's.

• 1:31:06Rich Roll?

  That makes a difference. I mean, when my parents started doing some work, and the pattern was interrupted, the expectations were, you know, derailed. So the conversation wasn't me saying what I always said, and getting what I always wanted. It was, we're, we love you, and, you know, we're available to you when you're, when you're ready to receive help. But until then, like, we, you know, we don't really want to talk to you. I was like, whoa.

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  I don't think the family realizes that they can skill build. If they can learn how to do motivational interviewing, they can learn language that is going to feel good to them. It doesn't have to be so chaotic. And if you've been living in that cycle for an extended period of time, why wouldn't you try an alternative approach? But a lot of times, the truth is, the family's willing to write, you know, [email protected] an email, or DM you, or write me. And then when we respond and say, hey, here are some things that you might want to look into. Oh, but it's not that bad.

• 1:32:13Rich Roll?

  Well, the general misconception is, that's the person with the problem. I'm trying to solve the problem, rather than, this problem is a family dynamic.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:32:23Rich Roll?

  And the the person who is terrified of their child, or their relative, or partner, or whoever it is, of something bad happening to them, they have to understand they're actually a participant in the problem. And the solution requires them to receive help in the same way that it requires the the person who is actually involved in the substance addiction to receive help.

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there's a whole nother layer to that. I mean, I think about this word relapse, right? And I don't, I don't love the word. There's not a better word for it. But families are terrified of relapse, right? So when the person finally does get into a program, what happens if they use again? You know, and learning how to respond to some of those moments, and learning how to, a lot of this stuff is so nuanced. I mean, the question we often get is like, hey, it's my first holiday home being sober. How should I treat my, or my, it's my kid's first holiday home sober, like, hey, how about you call them and ask them what they want? And then just honor whatever their response is. So if they want you to take the booze out of the house, honor that response and take the booze out of the house. If they say to you, hey, it would be, make me really uncomfortable

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  if it's my first holiday home, and everyone else is not drinking because of me, then you can honor that as well. And so oftentimes, it just comes back to communication.

• 1:33:43Rich Roll?

  There is a violence around this word and this idea of relapse. Sobriety is not a linear concept. You mentioned earlier, like, being a competitive person, like, I'm a competitive person. I keep score of everything. And so this idea that my sobriety is something that needs to be tabulated in a way that allows me to develop an ego around, like, how much time I have versus somebody else, really isn't in service to me. And this is another thing that I've been thinking about a lot lately, like, kind of transcending the violence that I perpetrate on myself for having relapsed and for not having perfect sobriety, and how it impacts my ego in a not great way, like, trying to have a little

• 1:34:28Rich Roll?

  bit more humility and regard for myself, like a gentleness and a softness. I don't want to keep score in any aspect of my life. I don't want to look at how many people watch or listen to this podcast, any more than I want to judge somebody in the, in a room, for how much time they have or don't have, or think of them differently, because last week, they went out after accumulating 10 years of uninterrupted sobriety.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I've seen people die.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  Not being dramatic, but I've just seen it and I'm sure you have who have relapsed and the guilt and shame.

• 1:35:08Rich Roll?

  It's the most shame inducing thing you can imagine for somebody in recovery, like this, this sense of profound failure. That is only going to make you hide and prevent you from availing yourself of the solution. You don't want to call anyone. You don't want to go back into the rooms and have to contend with that.

• 1:35:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just try to tell that person like this does not discredit the three or five or 10 years of work you've already done. You know, like there was something obviously out of whack and you picked up, but it does not. Because that's, that's the first thought is right. Like this discredits everything I've done.

• 1:35:44Rich Roll?

  It's erased and it doesn't, it didn't mean anything. I'm back at zero.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  And maybe this is the gateway or the experience you needed to finally look at that traumatic experience and truly heal. I, I don't, I don't have that answer.

• 1:35:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  But you brought up trauma earlier and, and, and that it's exciting because I do think clinicians and, and our field as a whole are starting to get more sophisticated with the way that we look at.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  Like my trauma is like my mom didn't hug me as much as I want her to hug me. That was very hard for me to say, you know, like.

• 1:36:14Rich Roll?

  Well, it's, it's, it feels so indulgent. You're like, are you serious? Like, give me a break. Like I had all my needs met and now you're telling me I suffered like in the same way that. We need a better word for relapse. We need a better word for trauma because it's so loaded. And so when I reflect on my upbringing, it's like, I can't, I can't like honestly tell you that. I suffered trauma, but whatever happened, happened that made me feel a certain way about myself. And that is inextricably tied to these patterns of behavior that become intractable in adulthood. And even as somebody who's been in the program for a very long time and been in therapy for decades.

• 1:36:55Rich Roll?

  Is so persistent, you know, it's a very, this, this whole like trauma piece, this whole early childhood piece is very, is a knot that's very difficult to untie.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's just the willingness. Again, it just goes back to that. You know, so when you ask about the family member, you ask about the IP, the identified patient, when you ask about myself and my story, it's just. The folks that are willing to do the work. Historically have a better shot to recover and I don't know where that willingness comes from.

• 1:37:28Rich Roll?

  Other than willingness in your experience, working with so many people and, and, and just being this available resource. I mean, you're a guy who just says yes. Every time when somebody. Calls you and says, hey, my cousin is this or whatever. You're like, all right, we're into the solution. Like you're Johnny on the spot. It's unbelievable. It's so inspiring. What have you learned about the difference between the person who then comes in? And is able to establish a foundation of sobriety and sets himself up for a long-term relationship with recovery versus the person who's in and out.

• 1:38:06Rich Roll?

  Or can't, can't get it.

• 1:38:08Speaker 01

  Give me the guy that comes in or the girl that comes in kicking and screaming.

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  Saying, screw you. I don't want to do this 10 out of 10 times. Cause at least they're being honest and you have a shot. They have a shot. The person that terrifies me is the one that comes in knowing everything.

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  And I've seen that person way too many times.

• 1:38:31Rich Roll?

  Cause that's a performance or a mask.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  Performance, it's a mask, it's an unwillingness to really just. Be honest about like for, for me, I truly believe that my word, my life depends on me and my word. And I don't do it perfectly, but I try pretty damn hard to. And so when that person comes in and they are telling me. That they know what to do and they have it all figured out, or they're unwilling to take a recommendation being made by clinical and medical professionals. It's really, really scary because in no other. Healthcare.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Would you see that with diabetes, with cancer, with heart disease, they give you that prescription, they give you that RX, they give you that treatment plan and. Most people are going to follow it because they know that their life depends on it.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  In this world that we're talking about right now, it's like. Yeah. Therapy though, really? Every week I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it twice a month.

• 1:39:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:31Speaker 01

  A meeting every day, like that's.

• 1:39:32Rich Roll?

  Bargaining.

• 1:39:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's way too much. And that's the guy that I see and that's the girl that I see struggle time and time again. The person that comes in and says they don't want to be there and says it's hard and cries and it's painful. Like that's real, that's raw. We can work with that.

• 1:39:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's that adage.

• 1:39:51Rich Roll?

  That 12 step adage like over here, you've got jails, institutions and death. Or you can go this way. And it's just gratitude and love and a beautiful life.

• 1:40:00Speaker 01

  You know why you got it? I mean, can you quantify that?

• 1:40:04Rich Roll?

  Why I ended up as an alcoholic?

• 1:40:05Speaker 01

  No, why you recovered.

• 1:40:07Rich Roll?

  Oh, why I was able to get it?

• 1:40:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:10Rich Roll?

  No. I mean, I can say, you know, I was broken and I was willing and I was terrified and you know, all of those things, but. I know other people that. Have shared that sensibility and have been unable to get it. Like it's a, it's, it was given to me as a, as a gift. And I try to honor it every day by being. You know, being of service to other people in that regard, but no, I can't quantify it. It's not something that can be. Distilled down to some kind of equation. Just do this and everything will be okay. It doesn't operate like that. It's just messy and complicated.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I've been doing this. I mean, I've had release for nine years now and been working behavioral healthcare for 14 and. You know, that's created some challenges just in my psyche and the way that I approach things because it is my livelihood. It is, you know, a business and we try to do it really, really well. And it's hard to do well. Treatment is hard to do well. We are not going to make everyone happy. You know, and, and we were talking about it a little before we started here. There's a lot of these programs popping up. They have. People that are really smart on the front end and they're creating these really nice healing environments and they're charging families 150, $200,000 a month to come. Get all the psychological testing and world-class therapeutic support and they're leaving there and dying.

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  You know, like, I don't know why, because probably there's no community. You know, there's no humility. There's no willingness to kind of like take that recovery and then actually apply it to the real world.

• 1:41:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's a lot of private equity and real estate plays out there that are predatory. Because they're preying on people's deepest fears.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  Well, the thing I see is.

• 1:41:56Rich Roll?

  And they can charge a ton of money to, you know, get people into these beds. And they staff these mansions in the hillsides of Malibu. There's so many of them with. You know, clinicians or, or supposed clinicians who really don't know what they're doing. And they're playing with people's lives.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And some of them are okay, but it's not regular. I mean, like to, to the degree that it should be regulated, it's not. And. Look, I get to work with the most unbelievable group of humans every day and I have tons of colleagues from programs that you're probably familiar with. Across this country that are truly doing really, really special work. But if you look at treatment as a whole. There's no big brands. Like the program, like release, for example, we're 140 employees. We have, you know, 80 some odd beds throughout New York and Texas.

• 1:42:49Speaker 01

  You know, we're trying to grow and do some interesting things and set a higher bar for the, you know, standard of care, but. There's no Nike, there's no Reebok of treatment.

• 1:42:58Rich Roll?

  There's Hazelton, people know that. And I guess there was Betty Ford.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's Hazelton, there's Karen, there's these big nonprofit boxes that.

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  You know, are still doing good work and probably need to like get their shit together a little bit in terms of like what's actually happening in the year 2026.

• 1:43:16Rich Roll?

  Rather than operating on a model that was established in the seventies or the eighties.

• 1:43:23Speaker 01

  I think that's a lot of what's wrong in this conversation, Rich, is that.

• 1:43:28Speaker 01

  We're, we're sitting here as byproducts of a, of a program that was started in 1935. By a drunk doctor and a drunk Wall Street trader and it's free and they don't want to know your last name.

• 1:43:43Speaker 01

  You know, and in 2026, there's thousands of programs and thousands of people, myself included, that are. Their livelihood is connected to behavioral healthcare. And that can be really confusing in a lot of ways.

• 1:44:00Rich Roll?

  Because it conflates your, your, your living with your program of sobriety.

• 1:44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there's been times in my career where I just want to say to the person like. Do just work the steps.

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  Just work the steps, like just shut up and work the steps. And I've had to pause on that because like, I don't know if that's actually the thing to say in that moment. And so, you know, what we try to do and, and I think what a lot of good programs try to do is.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  A lot of what I've learned by tuning into you and your channels wellness movement. When we think of behavioral healthcare, one behavior is removing the drugs and the alcohol. Are we talking about sleep? Are we talking about nutrition? Are we talking about hydration? Are we talking about the actual wellness movement? The wellness component, finding purpose to life. And so there's a, there's a part of AA that I think sells short in the recovery process, which is like,

• 1:44:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we're just gonna, we're just gonna just hammer nails in front of, you know, in front of the door before we go in and as soon as we get out.

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  Never got arrested for eating a pint of Haagen Dazs. Like, I get it, dude, but like, if I eat a pint of Haagen Dazs or two a day for a year, I'm gonna be diabetic.

• 1:45:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But the flip side of that is the person that thinks that if they're really focused on their marathon training, that that is going to solve their addiction problem. And I, you know, I get a lot of messages around that. And it's like, dude, you gotta put the running aside and focus on solving the recovery piece first. The running can wait and it will come, but you can't solve every problem at the same time. But that also doesn't mean that you shouldn't be eating healthy foods and tending to your physical well being, while also tending to your mental well being and your recovery.

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's like that warm hug we talk about that we get from heroin. It's like the, the, the, the way that I get that warm hug in recovery is from being around the community. You know, and I didn't know that. And to your point, like, I have this buddy, Kellen, who's down in Philly and he's a former heroin addict. And he went to AA and 12 step. He's very open about it and he, he's fallen in love with running. He's trying to qualify for the Olympics and he's really attacking it full force. And, you know, we've talked a lot about that, where running has really become his purpose and his identity. The thing I think he does differently than folks who maybe stopped going to meetings. And I'm not sure where he's really at with meetings, but is he continues to lean into a community and be of service

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  and pull from a lot of the things we get to learn in 12 step differently than I've seen other guys kind of lean into running. And I'm just using him as an example who do it, and then it becomes their entire identity.

• 1:46:46Rich Roll?

  Sure. Anything where you're attaching your, that you're attaching your identity to can be, is going to create suffering and problems. And that includes the identity attachment to like who you are in AA.

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  Who you are in AA. I mean, like, I went through the whole television thing and how polarizing that's been for me. Because I was, and I don't talk about it on podcasts a lot, and I should probably look at that, like in a therapeutic environment. I don't know if it's a part of my life that I'm trying to like compartmentalize or keep separate, or that I feel like people won't take me seriously. Yeah, I mean, in some ways I'm being, I'm, I'm held accountable to the entire universe. And that's not to say that's gonna help me abstain from drinking and drugging, but it certainly is there.

• 1:47:36Rich Roll?

  I've heard you talk about the show and saying like they, they, you always speak very highly of the producers and your experience on the show. We have this notion like, oh, they tell you what to do. It's all scripted. It's all set up, you know, to create and spin certain narratives. But that really wasn't your experience of it, according to you.

• 1:47:57Speaker 01

  I can't speak for other people. They tried to tell me to do some things and I very kindly or not so kindly said, I'm not gonna do that. And I just carried myself the way that I wanted to carry myself. And so they can certainly ask and try, but at the end of the day, like I'm an adult and I get to make my own decisions. And so like, I don't ever feel like I was forced to do anything. There were suggestions made, of course, they're making a television show. I also know what I signed up to go do. And so maybe I'm just too pragmatic about it, or I just think about it in a way that just, hey, it takes two to tango here and a mutual respect is gonna go a long way. But yeah, I don't, I don't take issue with the production. I don't take, at the end of the day,

• 1:48:42Speaker 01

  they can't air something on television that I don't say. So if I don't say it, they can't air it.

• 1:48:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah. All right, running. We gotta talk about running. We're two hours in. We haven't even talked about the thing that we both are obsessed with.

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  If you think I'm a nerd about recovery, based on the first two hours of this conversation, running has completely changed the trajectory in my life.

• 1:49:07Rich Roll?

  How so?

• 1:49:09Speaker 01

  It's hard to describe and I'm one of these guys that this running boom that's happening, I'm all for it. Like, I think people should all have access to the joy. I mean, just from a mental health perspective, from a movement perspective, from a, I can do hard shit perspective. And it's something that I just, I hated it as a kid growing. I never could run.

• 1:49:34Rich Roll?

  Running was a punishment.

• 1:49:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:49:37Rich Roll?

  If you're play, if you played sports as a kid, that's what you had to do if you didn't do the drills properly or you weren't paying attention. So you learned to associate it as like, uh, something to dread.

• 1:49:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, they used to call the sprints where you're like suicides, which is like obviously very poorly named. And someone I was talking to was like, yeah, I made the kids do some suicides. I said, you might wanna rethink what you're, talk about punishment, right? I mean, yeah, it was like the worst.

• 1:50:06Rich Roll?

  When did it start? How did you get into it?

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  Rehab.

• 1:50:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  Rehab. There was this hill in the rehab center that I went to and I was over, overweight. And so I basically just started kind of like walking up that hill one day. And then one day I started like jogging.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  And so that was like a very small taste of running. And then I moved to New York and I started just jogging around the city. It was a great way. That and meetings was a great way to kind of see the city. Or if I would travel, I'd go for a three or four mile run. And then I really fell in love with it. I moved here in 2012. The marathon was canceled that year because of Sandy. And so then I watched it in 2013 and I remember just sitting on the sidelines on First Avenue, the New York City Marathon and crying, just, I lost it, watching all these people together. And I just thought to myself, like, there's no race, religion, creed, like, they're all just kind of,

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  moving towards the same thing, which in today's world is so rare.

• 1:51:10Rich Roll?

  It's the best day in New York City of the year.

• 1:51:15Rich Roll?

  Amazing. Just to watch it, let alone participate in it.

• 1:51:21Speaker 01

  I swore to myself I would run every New York City Marathon from that day forward. And I've done that, which has been cool.

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  And I've been able to create kind of a whole nonprofit out of my love for running, which we raise money at the Release Foundation to provide scholarship funds to folks who, you know, can't afford behavioral healthcare services, so treatment, intervention, therapy, whatever it might be. You don't have commercial insurance. You don't have the research. So that's been really cool. But I just, I fell in love with it, man.

• 1:51:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:58Speaker 01

  And I had this experience where the first, so I've run like, you know, like 18 or not, you know, like, I think you know about the marathon distances, like, once you've done a bunch of them, you can probably, I could go run one today. It's not gonna be my best, but I remember like my ninth or 10th marathon, I crossed the finish line and I felt nothing. And I said something, I gotta change. So I got a coach. And that has been a whole nother unlock of just fucking awesome, dude. I mean, dude, going for like, so I was a four hour guy. And like you get a coach and you start like, what's a 40 mile week? What's a track workout? Like, I was just slogging the most boring.

• 1:52:40Rich Roll?

  Going out and running and like, I have an hour, I'll run.

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:43Rich Roll?

  I'll run as hard as I can in that hour. It'll be fine. Not understanding that just like everything else in life, if you approach it methodically, scientifically, and intentionally, you'll, you'll get a better result.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  That's just it. You just said it. And that's what my, so my coach is this guy Mario Frayle. He's actually Ken.

• 1:53:02Rich Roll?

  I know him.

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Mario's the best.

• 1:53:05Rich Roll?

  It's great.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  And he's the perfect temperament for me because I can get like way, way fired up. As you can tell by my smile right now as it pertains to running. And I remember he took me from like, like, like the first block we did together. I went from like a 345 to a 321 in the marathon. And I'm like, this is great. I'm running a 230 in like two year, you know, like, and.

• 1:53:29Rich Roll?

  Not knowing that every minute thereafter becomes, becomes exponentially more difficult.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:35Rich Roll?

  There's this interesting relationship between people in recovery and running. I mean, I've had no shortage of ultra runners.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:53:43Rich Roll?

  You know, like it's just like, it's just like, you know, it's like honey for the person in recovery. There is this relationship with voluntary suffering that becomes very appealing to the sober person. Do you have a operating like theory of mind on that?

• 1:54:02Speaker 01

  I know what's on the other side of suffering.

• 1:54:05Speaker 01

  Which is joy and happiness and sense of accomplishment like nothing I've ever gotten in this life and it sounds very cheesy has been without a lot of hard work. And so like as I embark on, you know, these 20 mile runs or these marathons or even just the whole trying to raise more money around it and build more community and get people more people involved. It's you're gonna have to be told no, you're gonna have to be relentless. You're gonna have to experience training runs that really suck. But at the end of the day, like you said it, I don't need to say it. You said it perfectly. It's like most things in life when you apply the thing that's like showing up and taking direction and following the plan.

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  You're gonna suffer a little bit because it's work, but at the end of the day, you're gonna get a result that you're really fucking proud of.

• 1:54:54Rich Roll?

  You also have to be careful though, because the addict will use anything as a means to escape dealing with.

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  Where are you at with that? Where are you at with that?

• 1:55:03Rich Roll?

  Well, it's, you know, it's an ongoing relationship that I'm always trying to calibrate. Like I think you have to acknowledge and admit and accept on some level that

• 1:55:16Rich Roll?

  that it does provide a kind of like an emotional relief, you know, that that on some level drugs would reliably deliver like running does produce a version of that. That is, that is, yeah, you get, you get the runners high and and there's a, there's a calmness to being in that elevated heart rate state that makes your problem seem less urgent and in a way that kind of drugs and alcohol do. And that can be problematic if you're using running to running to run away from something as opposed to running towards something.

• 1:55:59Rich Roll?

  And I think, you know, on some level, you know, it's always operating to serve both of those. So for me, I just have to be careful because I can, I can use it to make an argument for, for deprioritizing other important values in my life if I'm not careful. And I've done that in the past. Now I can't, you know, I'm forced to be still, which has its own challenges and gifts, but I'm just curious about how you think about that. I mean, it's a little easier. You're single. I think you're single, maybe you're not. I don't know. You don't have kids, things like that.

• 1:56:39Rich Roll?

  But you, you're running a, you know, a complicated business and you have lots of responsibilities and demands on your time.

• 1:56:47Speaker 01

  I prioritize it because it is so important to me. I absolutely get high from running. I can be very honest about that. Like I

• 1:56:57Speaker 01

  the same way that when I would snort a 30 milligram Roxacet and get a lot of work done the next two hours. I'm super productive after a 15 mile run, you know, while I'm still in that elevated kind of dopamine rush state and I do try to pay attention to that. I do have significant fear around being injured, which is why I've been so inspired by the way that you've handled your surgery and kind of coming out of that and and I don't know, there's like the Ken ride out like, you know, like this is, this is a healthy addiction, you know, like leaning really hard into it. And then there's like probably where I fall like a little short of that, which is like, I need to be aware

• 1:57:42Speaker 01

  and mindful of the way that this is impacting my life, both for the good and the bad. Like I don't want to ever feel like I'm gonna miss out on a life experience, which I have because I have to do this training run. And so as I start to look at relationships and I have responsibilities at businesses like that I run, I am not a professional runner. I have to like, understand that.

• 1:58:08Rich Roll?

  The qualitative difference is that the rocks are easy, like picking up is easy and it makes your life worse ultimately, whereas running is hard and makes your life better.

• 1:58:21Speaker 01

  But it can make my life worse. Like if I, if I get really selfish with running and I start to miss out on social gatherings because I worked late and now I have to run 10 miles and sorry, I have to cancel on you. It can have a similar effect as my drug use did. And I, and all I'm saying is I have to be aware of that.

• 1:58:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You, you mentioned the resurgence in running or this like surge in popularity. I think most of that is around all of these run groups now. It's a community approach to running, which feels new. I mean, New York City has always been a running city and there's always been like run clubs and all that kind of thing. But now we're seeing like, there's almost too many run clubs and they're competing with each other and cannibalizing each other. But I think it speaks to this human need that we get sated by going to meetings of being with like-minded people who share a common set of values and these run communities and run clubs are filling that void in the aftermath of COVID

• 1:59:24Rich Roll?

  that we need as human beings to be around other people, to be, you know, engaged in an activity, a shared love of something and and to do that communally.

• 1:59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a net positive. I mean, it's the same way run clubs, you've talked about it with podcasts and how there's been this like, everyone's got a podcast thing and, and

• 1:59:48Speaker 01

  I can poke holes in all of those things and be upset about a lot of it. And, and some of the run club stuff is annoying and frustrating. And you've heard like horror stories about kind of bullying or like, you know, time shaming and that stuff. I'm like, that's not for me and

• 2:00:02Rich Roll?

  And now all this fashion etiquette, you know, like the apparel industry is like really, you know, kind of showed up in a way that like now you have to have a certain kit and there's like almost, it's, it's like gatekeeping on some level, which I'm not crazy about. It's, I like the fact that like, there's a fashion sensibility in running now, but that's the not.

• 2:00:22Speaker 01

  It's gonna level set though. I mean, don't you think it's gonna come back down to this like simplistic? You know, you have like the satisfy running company, right? Like with these shirts that are $400 and they have the holes in them and like, you know, people

• 2:00:34Rich Roll?

  I have a couple pair of them. You know, it's like, I like that, but I also acknowledge like that is controversial and like, you know, it's not accessible for everyone. It's something that is fun and available, but yeah, there's all of that, you know, that, that I think anything that's intimidating somebody from getting involved in running or feels like they, they're, they're not good enough to be in a run club or something like that, like that part that has to get solved.

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  I think if the run club is communicating clearly what they are doing, like this is actually a, a club for serious runners. Then it's the consumer's job to go find a run club that is you know, more suitable. Like, like we have a little run club that we do on Monday nights in Central Park and we have a one mile walk option. And that's more just to bring people together around mental health and the most someone's doing is the six mile loop in Central Park and no one's timing it, but then there's you know, it's like, you gotta know where you're showing up.

• 2:01:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah. All you need is a pair of shoes. But all you need to do a podcast is a pair of microphones.

• 2:01:43Speaker 01

  Maybe that's not the best, yeah.

• 2:01:45Rich Roll?

  It's like in the same way that you're, that you're saying, oh, you know, well, I'll just remember that like running is a very basic thing. I keep thinking, well, eventually we're going to remember that the value proposition of podcasts is that it's a portable form of medium that you put into your ears and you can do something else while you're doing it. But culture seems to be saying that this needs to be a television show, you know? So it's wild. Yeah. And we haven't even talked about the Zach Clark show and the podcast that you're doing now and how you think about like your place in this whole ecosystem of content creation.

• 2:02:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I just, I had to start with gratitude for you voicing change, taking a shot on me like I'm very late to the podcast game and I feel like it's been a slower burn for us as we try to not figure it out, but really create something that has that's a resource that has purpose and the conversations are real and that's all we want to do. It's like that question you asked me, which rocked me at the beginning around mission. That's everything that I do is kind of driving towards that. And there were certainly moments early on where we wanted to quit, you know, and, and then I would get the DM or the message or the email from someone who you know, was 90 days sober because they heard an episode. And that truly is

• 2:03:11Speaker 01

  you know, what makes it all worth it. And so, yeah, storytelling and, and really like taking a lot from. You know, it's funny, Rich, sitting here, I always tell people there's there's two books that I've like read front to back several times. One is called Alcoholics Anonymous. That is our big book. And the other is Running Ultra, you know, and so like for me

• 2:03:32Rich Roll?

  It's called Finding Ultra.

• 2:03:33Speaker 01

  Finding Ultra, I'm sorry, Finding Ultra. I keep calling it Running Ultra.

• 2:03:37Rich Roll?

  You need to read it one more time.

• 2:03:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Finding Ultra, Running Ultra. Anyway, thank you for the correction.

• 2:03:43Rich Roll?

  Maybe I should have called, maybe I should have titled it Running Ultra. You're not the first person to think of that. Anyway.

• 2:03:47Speaker 01

  But, you know, you guys took a shot on me and welcomed me into your network and there's some cool people doing cool things. And that's really what it's about for us. And hopefully some of that collaboration and community that you're building, we can kind of benefit from and vice versa.

• 2:04:03Rich Roll?

  Well, I'm super proud to be working with you. When we started voicing change, the idea was to identify and the people that I think are very worthy voices doing good work and, you know, being very intentional and conscious about what they're sharing with the world and being able to step in and hopefully amplify and sort out whatever kind of like learning curve the creator has to put them in the best position to have their message broadly heard. And as I mentioned to you before we even started, like you're, you were at the top of this list always. And yes, maybe you're

• 2:04:45Rich Roll?

  a little later in this, you know, kind of evolution of this medium, but it's still early days here. Everyone thinks it's, yes, it's, there's, everyone's got a podcast, very saturated. But that doesn't mean that there isn't room for really good voices who have something important to say. And you're somebody who's doing that. And so for anyone who is new to Zach and

• 2:05:10Rich Roll?

  his story and to what he's doing with Relief Recovery, like check out the Zach Clark Show. Like, I really think that these recovery oriented podcasts are important and we need a diversity of voices. Like, I love what Dave Mannheim is doing. It's dopey. Like, it's fantastic. He has a very certain flavor to him. And, and he's cultivated an incredible audience. But we also need like guys like you who are speaking the same language, but maybe reaching a different aspect of, you know, a different audience that needs to hear what you have to share.

• 2:05:45Speaker 01

  I appreciate that. And I'm I'm just grateful. I really am, you know, and, and I don't know where this thing goes. I feel like

• 2:05:59Speaker 01

  it's very clear to me why I'm doing what I'm doing and you know, I'm just gonna kind of stay at it. And like,

• 2:06:10Speaker 01

  I know I referenced it earlier, but like that whole idea that you've never missed a Monday, like for me, that is my most important quality that I just keep showing up. And it's something that I think a lot of people discount and discredit in this world, like with all the new technology and new ways of doing things and you don't have to be the smartest guy in the room to just keep showing up. And recovery taught me that. But more importantly, like I've learned that in my business dealings and in life, I feel very blessed and just grateful that you're sharing this time with me, honestly. Congrats on a thousand, by the way. I have to be honest, I got oh, I listened to you when I run, full disclosure, and I got a little choked up when they went back and were playing a clip from episode four.

• 2:06:56Speaker 01

  And just thinking about the moments that have transpired since that. It's pretty cool.

• 2:07:01Rich Roll?

  It's surreal. It's been a surreal journey. It hasn't been easy, but it's, it's been such a gift. I mean, the the gift is twofold. One, I, it, it keeps me curious and interested and it's just the ultimate device to meet people who inspire you in various ways and continue to learn from them. But the service piece of being able to share that and know that it's benefiting other people, like there's no greater gift. And you're somebody who's your whole life is about service and the meaning that that has and the purpose that that has given your life is very inspiring to me.

• 2:07:41Speaker 01

  It's the most important thing to serve others and just to, because if I don't, I'm just sitting there thinking about myself. And I think for me and you, we understand that, having been at this thing for a while.

• 2:07:54Rich Roll?

  Obsession of the mind is not a good place. It's not where you want to live.

• 2:07:57Speaker 01

  No. And people don't understand that. They think it's if I could afford to just sit around and think about myself and not give, give, give, I probably would, but my life depends on the opposite.

• 2:08:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You think that indulging that would move your life forward, but it's actually regressive.

• 2:08:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:15Rich Roll?

  It moves your life in the wrong way.

• 2:08:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't get out of bed if I'm thinking about myself.

• 2:08:20Rich Roll?

  I have to get out of my self obsession in order to function. And ironically, shockingly, I'm much happier when I'm invested in the welfare of other people.

• 2:08:31Speaker 01

  I'll never forget

• 2:08:34Speaker 01

  my sponsor in early days said, you're gonna call three other alcoholics a day. So why the hell am I gonna, it's like, was this some kind of dating? So like, I don't have, I don't need friends. And he see, like hit me right between the eyes. He said, if you call three other guys a day and you ask them how their day is going, you can't possibly be thinking about yourself. And those are just like the little nuggets I got in the rooms in recovery. And I don't know.

• 2:08:59Rich Roll?

  One of those things that

• 2:09:02Rich Roll?

  you think early on, what does this possibly have to do with me staying sober? Like making coffee, showing up early, introducing yourself, sweeping the floors, all that bullshit. It's only in retrospect, when you look back and you realize like, oh, that is recovery. That is the foundation of sobriety.

• 2:09:21Speaker 01

  Did you reach a point where you decided to start talking about it kind of openly? And the anonymity piece? Cause I think I struggled with that early on. And now I'm just like, I've lost the

• 2:09:31Rich Roll?

  I made a decision early around that. But it's not an easy decision to have made. And it's also one that I still reflect on quite frequently because every time I'm behind a mic and talking to somebody about their recovery journey, I'm thinking like, am I transgressing the tradition that tells you not to talk about this, the level of press, radio and film? I mean, my whole career is sort of premised upon violating that tradition. But I think when I started the podcast, or even before that, when I wrote Finding Ultra, I just thought, if I had known about this earlier in my life, I could have, or there's a possibility that I would have gotten sober earlier. Like when I came in

• 2:10:15Rich Roll?

  to the rooms, I didn't know anybody who was in recovery. I didn't know anything. All I knew about AA was what I saw on TV or in movies. And my experience completely defied all of those expectations, but I had to learn that firsthand through direct experience. And so to the extent that I could save somebody, some of that consternation, it seemed like worthy of potentially being, you know, criticized for, for, for violating that tradition. And it hasn't been without that criticism on, on some level, but at the same time, like I feel pretty convicted about it, you know, like I just, I know that it's

• 2:10:57Rich Roll?

  been beneficial to people. And I think culture has changed since the, you know, the 1930s and the 1940s, when, you know, the, the big book was written and the world was very different than it is today. I mean, and, and this was one of the questions that I had written down for you. Like, how do you think about that as somebody who's a very public facing figure in the recovery space?

• 2:11:17Speaker 01

  It's been hard. It's something I, I

• 2:11:21Speaker 01

  I love AA. I love AA. I love the history. I'm a total nerd for the whole thing. And so I respect it. And I feel like that's one of the reasons I've stayed sober. But there is this glaring kind of piece of my existence that's confusing. And I'll give you a story. I mean, last night I am

• 2:11:43Speaker 01

  running some errands to get ready. I'm heading down to the All-Star game in Philly today after this interview and this guy stops me, which happens from time to time. And it's either Bachelor or it's recovery. It's one of the two things. It's not just someone that randomly, you know, knows.

• 2:11:59Rich Roll?

  Do you know in advance? Can you just tell, oh, this is a I know this is gonna be about the Bachelor?

• 2:12:05Speaker 01

  I mean, women are typically Bachelor. The guys, there's usually something else behind it. But there are, there's a certain level of fandom from the men as well. You just gotta drag it out of them. Cause they don't, you know, they don't lead with that. But this kid stopped me dead in my tracks. Like Zach, right? I said, yeah, I'm Zach. Nice to meet you. What's your name? He said, my name's Keith. He goes, I just celebrated 17 months sober and I got sober because of you.

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  Thank you for all the work you're doing in the recovery community. This isn't a guy that came through any of my programs. This isn't a guy I've ever met. Never been in a meeting with him. He saw something somewhere along the lines and felt moved to move towards a life that was gonna suit him better. And so just when I want to stop and, and maybe like pull, pull like a little bit closer and be a little bit more private, I get an experience like that and I have to trust it.

• 2:12:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. For those that don't know, the purpose of this tradition, there's 12 traditions in AA and one of them is around the anonymity piece, which is really important to protect people's anonymity so that they feel free being open. Because if you're not open in the rooms, you're getting in the way of your own recovery. Also, sharing it on a public level, what goes on is trepidatious because if somebody relapses, then the public perception will be that this program doesn't work. And I think there is a sort of

• 2:13:34Rich Roll?

  perception out there in culture that AA is an outdated, an outdated modality. And, you know, we know better now. We know so much more than we did. And, you know, AA doesn't work, blah, blah, blah. I think you and I are, are aligned in the fact that we believe deeply in the 12 step program. It saved both of our lives. How do you think about that when people kind of confront you with that argument?

• 2:14:00Speaker 01

  The argument about anonymity and why?

• 2:14:02Rich Roll?

  No, the argument that, that like AA is an outdated modality and it doesn't work. And, you know, I've heard so many people who've gone in and they struggle and they don't stay sober.

• 2:14:11Speaker 01

  John Kelly at Harvard ran the stud. I mean, like the recidivism rate. If you stick around AA long enough.

• 2:14:19Speaker 01

  I believe it works.

• 2:14:21Rich Roll?

  If you work it.

• 2:14:22Speaker 01

  If you, if you, I mean, like that, if we're gonna go in.

• 2:14:25Rich Roll?

  Be a tourist.

• 2:14:25Speaker 01

  Right. Like if you're gonna be, get into the traditions, the one that is most important to me is that third tradition, which basically says, if I identify as an alcoholic, like I'm, I'm like, the only require, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. So if I have a desire to stop drinking, I can walk into an AA meeting. The only requirement for a gym membership is that I pay it every month. If I just look at the equipment, nothing's gonna change. So, once I get to AA, there's a shitload of work that I have to do. And that was explained to me very early on. And I still, to this day, take that very seriously. I have come to the other side of it where AA worked for me. I also, you have to remember, run a business that is

• 2:15:07Speaker 01

  focused on behavioral healthcare, substance abuse, mental health. Not everyone comes into our program fired up to go to a meeting. In fact, it's quite the opposite. And so, I have had to really understand what has worked for me personally, and what works for the masses, and kind of filter through that in a way that works for me. And so, to the person that wants to say that AA is outdated, or it's in a cult, or maybe, maybe it is, I don't, I don't know, I don't, I don't care to embark on that argument. I will say to them, my experience is that it saved my life.

• 2:15:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. We're in a culture right now that incentivizes a lot of bad behavior. And that certainly applies in the digital space. By dint of the algorithms that favor, like, a lot of crazy talk and contrarianism, and, you know, kind of outrageous thinking, it takes discipline to play the long game and operate from a place of integrity. But you're a long game player, I'm a long game player. Sobriety is about playing the long game. And I think the kind of silver lining in all of this is that what really matters long-term is reputation. And

• 2:16:27Rich Roll?

  when you get caught up in what the algorithm wants, you're sacrificing your reputation and your integrity for these short-term gains, without really understanding or seeing the damage that it's doing to you long-term. And, you know, when I see what you're doing, you're clearly operating from a place of integrity. And I think in time, like, that becomes undeniable, when you are continuously showing up in that way. And people can't help but value that. Because I think there are a lot of people out there looking for who to trust. Who can I really trust? Oh, my brain can't help but scroll these crazy videos. But when it comes to making decisions about my life, like, I think everyone's looking for

• 2:17:09Rich Roll?

  those people that they feel safe with. And you're certainly somebody who's, who's doing that.

• 2:17:15Speaker 01

  Well, that was beautiful. And that's all I try to be, so.

• 2:17:18Rich Roll?

  I think the way I want to end this is with two questions. The first being, there's a lot of discussion right now around this epidemic of loneliness, and this dearth of meaning that people seem to be having in their lives. And you're somebody who's very anchored in purpose and meaning. You mentioned gratitude. So, for the person who feels like they're suffering in the midst of one of these epidemics, how does that person begin to engender their lives with a little bit more meaning and purpose and direction?

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I'm big on that word permission. So, for that person, like, giving themselves permission to acknowledge and understand that they're not feeling great, and that they need a little help, and that's okay. You know, it's a question I get asked all the time, Rich, and I can give a million answers to it. Go to therapy, find a run club, instill yourself in, change careers, move. All of these things, in theory, could potentially work. But it goes back to this thing that we've been circling time and time again in this conversation. It's just, is there a level of willingness to actually change? Because the word change is loaded. That means I'm committing to not being the way that I've been

• 2:18:33Speaker 01

  for a certain period of time. And what I know is that I get a lot of phone calls about people that are no longer with us. And when someone dies by suicide, or they die by overdose, historically, those people are dying alone. And for me, the most obvious way to combat that is to, like, throw yourself into the middle of some community. Get out of this cycle of just being in your four walls. And for me, I've been able to do that through AA and through running. Those are two really vibrant, awesome communities that I feel blessed

• 2:19:15Speaker 01

  to be a part of. And it's amazing what peer-to-peer support can do. Like, really being seen by someone who has been through what you are going through. And it's hard, but it's achievable for that person who's sitting out there and feels really alone, and feels really scared, and feels like there's no hope. Simply putting that hand up and walking into a room and saying, I need help. And I'm not saying a meeting, I'm saying any room, you know? Show up to a yoga class and pull the girl aside next to you and say, like, hey, that was a great class. Can I, like, share something with you? Just start practicing asking for help.

• 2:19:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It can be hard to be on the receiving end of being told, like, raise your hand and ask for help. It gets to this willingness piece. So, I think the question is always, like, well, what are you willing to do? Maybe you're not willing to check yourself into treatment, or to show up at a run group with a bunch of people you've never met before. But what is the one thing you are willing to do that is a little bit different? Like, what is that contrary action that you can take today to just drill it down from the abstract into something super tangible?

• 2:20:29Speaker 01

  Well, it gives that person autonomy, too. Like, it gives them the ability to actually name it. And then they're actually held accountable, because it wasn't someone else's idea. So, I love that. I love that approach. What are you willing to do? And I say that to the family members. What are you willing to tolerate here? Are you willing to tolerate your son stealing $20 from you once a week? We're not. And so, it's all about this communication.

• 2:20:54Rich Roll?

  All right, last question.

• 2:20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:57Rich Roll?

  And this is just your message to the person who is struggling out there, you know, in the midst of a cycle of addiction that they feel trapped in and hopeless. What is, what is it that you want to say to that person?

• 2:21:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, even you just asking that question, like, I feel the emotion. It's crazy, like, and I think that's like what this whole conversation kind of circles back to, is this idea that, like, I can't explain why I'm here. I have no real reason. And I can tell you that I have a beautiful life that I'm very grateful for, and that is available to you, too. And it sounds very mainstream and cheesy, but it's just the truth. And that person needs to know that they're worth it, and that they're valued, and that we see you, and that there's a lot of people in this world who are really good humans, and would

• 2:21:57Speaker 01

  be willing to, you know, bring you along for the ride. Because that's just what people did for me. It was therapists, it was peers, it was coworkers, it was my family. And 15 years later, like, I still experience that. Even in meeting you today, like, sure, we had a nice conversation, but at the end of the day, like, I get to walk out of here with a, with a fellow, which is really powerful.

• 2:22:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. This was great, man. Let's do more cool shit together.

• 2:22:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think we can, I think, like, voicing change. I think we can actually do some cool shit. And, you know, you hook them with a run or a cool event, and then tell them that there's an easier way to live.

• 2:22:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And that's accent, yeah.

• 2:22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:42Rich Roll?

  Speaking of which, if, if people want to learn more about Release Recovery, where do you want to send them?

• 2:22:47Speaker 01

  ReleaseRecovery.com is really where you can learn about our services. We're doing some really cool work within New York City and Westchester and Austin treatment. We've really evolved as a program and as a team. And that's been really under the belief that I think good programs have really strong medical and clinical professionals, along with coaches with lived experience and a community that kind of lifts folks up. So, certainly, if you or someone you know is struggling, like, Rich is not joking, I respond to DMs about that stuff, pretty much nothing else.

• 2:23:22Rich Roll?

  It's crazy.

• 2:23:23Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, you can email me, [email protected], like, I will respond.

• 2:23:29Rich Roll?

  You're gonna get a lot of emails, I think.

• 2:23:31Speaker 01

  That's fine.

• 2:23:32Rich Roll?

  Uh, and if somebody wants to get involved in the 501(c)(3), uh, do you still have bibs available for the marathon if you want to raise money for the foundation?

• 2:23:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, we got 50 for London this year, which is like, we have 140 for New York. We're like, pretty much at capacity for that. We usually have one or two floating, based on injury, but I can't make any promises.

• 2:23:58Rich Roll?

  Launching political campaigns to get these.

• 2:24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 2:24:01Rich Roll?

  These bibs.

• 2:24:03Speaker 01

  Uh, no, but yeah, if you want to get involved, there's volunteer opportunities. We have our runs in the park. Like, we have a lot of people who have reached out and said, like, we actually don't want anything from you. We just want to do an event, like, in your honor. So, that stuff's like, super cool. Like, people will just have golf events and write us a check, which is, we're grateful for. But yeah, run a race with us, come do an event. We have fun. Yeah.

• 2:24:28Rich Roll?

  Awesome, man. You're legit, dude.

• 2:24:30Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 2:24:30Rich Roll?

  I appreciate you sharing so openly today, man. You're a force for goodness world. And I'm proud to be associated with you and really appreciate the time today. Thanks, man.

• 2:24:40Speaker 01

  Feel the same way about you. Congrats on a thousand. Hopefully, there's a thousand more.

• 2:24:44Rich Roll?

  Thanks, man.

• 2:24:44Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 2:24:45Rich Roll?

  Awesome. Until next time.