Lisa Lange’s Vision For a Better World & Why It’s Cool To Be Compassionate

Confession time. I’m the first to admit that my initial reasons for adopting a plant-based lifestyle were selfish. I was overweight. I felt lousy. I looked lousy. I had a health scare. Basically, I just wanted to look and feel better. I wanted to enjoy my kids at their energy level. I wasn’t ready to succumb to middle age defeat. So I took the leap. A leap without much expectation I might add. Then the miracle. I dropped 50 pounds. My vitality returned. That long-gone youthful glow restored. I didn't just get my life back, I got an entirely new one. Today I am living the life beyond my wildest dreams. I could have never predicted the journey that would follow this simple decision. It has been long, at times hard, but ultimately extraordinary in every way imaginable. It's not an understatement that everything in my life has changed for the better. And for that I am extremely grateful. There is one thing I know with certainty. If you want a great life, give more than you receive. This is primary reason behind my decision to start this podcast — to share with you the people, information, tools and inspiration that have been so incredibly transformative in my life. But let's be honest. I didn't get into this plant-based lifestyle because I wanted to save the animals. Frankly, my concern for the health of the planet could be characterized as passive lip service at best. I was the furthest thing from a food activist. And when it came to environmental, ethical and political issues like GMO’s, the deleterious effects of factory farming, slaughterhouse conditions, carbon emissions, the deforestation of the rainforests, species extinction, the mistreatment of circus animals, the pollution and overfishing of our oceans and the moral implications of harvesting animals for food, the truth is that I didn't really give it much thought. That was then. But this is now. In the eight years since I began this journey, I have changed. I have grown. Ever so slowly, my eyes have started to open to a myriad of uncomfortable realities relating to how our world functions. Unpleasant and unnecessary realities that I can no longer in good conscience turn a blind eye to. I’ve been blessed with a platform. My book and this podcast have given me an audience. With this comes a certain responsibility that I take seriously. What is that responsibility? I can't say that I’m entirely sure. However, I do know that it entails a commitment to the truth. A commitment to shed light on and help raise awareness around issues that affect not just me, but all of us. Things that are not right. Things that need to change. The truth isn’t always comfortable. It's generally not convenient. And often not popular because it challenges us to think differently and in many cases modify behaviors we might not want to modify. To me, the truth also presents a growth opportunity. An opportunity to be bold. To do and be better. I know can do better. And if this podcast isn’t about that, then it's just wasted air. Our fast-paced, hyper-industrialized world lives in a comfortable haze of convenience priority. We go about our day happily and for the most part unconsciously disconnected from the process undertaken to bring consumer products into our homes. This includes the clothes we wear, the devices we use and of course the foods we enjoy. This is process I really don't want to look at. It's uncomfortable because it forces me to transcend denial and truly consider what actually goes on behind the shroud of obfuscation erected by giant conglomerates, powerful lobbying efforts and governmental forces that have a strong vested interest in maintaining the disconnect that cloaks the public from certain unpalatable realities. Dismantling the disconnect isn't fun. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:10Rich Roll?

  Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, episode 111 with Lisa Lange. But before we get into it, a couple of quick announcements. The first thing is, you heard me talk about the documentary Cowspiracy. If you've been listening to the podcast, no, you don't know what I'm talking about. You're new to the podcast? Well, maybe check out episode 91. It's my conversation with the filmmakers Kip Anderson and Keegan Coon. Very illuminating, very entertaining, very educational. What is Cowspiracy? Well, it's a documentary. It's an incredibly sobering and powerful, and also entertaining, film that takes a hard, unflinching look at the deleterious impact of animal agriculture on the environment,

• 1:52Rich Roll?

  and more particularly, the reasons behind why this crucial issue fails to get the airtime and attention it deserves in the global environmentalism conversation. So imagine the famous documentary An Inconvenient Truth in a mashup with the more recent, popular documentary. Documentary Blackfish and you start to get the picture. The filmmakers have been crisscrossing the United States hosting screenings and there's been a lot of independently hosted screenings, I think like 100 overall. And this has created tremendous grassroots awareness and excitement about this movie and that has led to questions. How can I see the film? Well, now you can.

• 2:32Rich Roll?

  The DVD is coming out in November and we're now offering it for preorder on our website. So if you go to richroll.com/products for $19.95, you can get a copy of the DVD preordering it. And we also have special prices for bulk purchases, so do that. I made this announcement last week that resulted in a very positive response, but also a few comments and emails, people saying, "Why should I order a DVD? It's wasteful. I can just watch it online and why should I preorder?" And I get it. I understand where you're coming from with all of that. I completely understand. But I guess I would also say that I still think that DVDs are a great way to share the message and the film with other people.

• 3:17Rich Roll?

  I mean, sure, you can give somebody a link, say, "Hey, check this out." Sometimes they watch it, sometimes they don't, but there's something about handing somebody a physical product that really kind of helps carry the message. And it makes a great gift, which is why we have reduced per-unit pricing on bulk purchases during this preorder phase. So, of course, the film will be online at some point. I'm not sure exactly when yet. I'll let you know as soon as I know. And there are interesting things afoot in terms of online distribution, but DVDs have a place, so there you go. Check it out. Second thing is, we have a restaurant. We are owners in a restaurant, which is amazing and super cool because it's just another

• 4:00Rich Roll?

  way for us to kind of broaden community and dialogue about all the issues that I talk about on the podcast. It's been a fantastic experience. It's been open about, I don't know, six or eight weeks at this point. It's going really well. The early feedback is super positive. People seem to be really enjoying it, so. I want you guys to check it out if you're in LA. It's called Joy Cafe, J-O-I. It's all plant-based, it's all organic, it's all awesome all the time. So if you're in the LA area, please swing by. If you go by at lunchtime, more likely than not that I'll be there. I'm there, I don't know, three or four times a week for lunch. But you are certain to meet Joy and Nick, the two main owners who are always there.

• 4:43Rich Roll?

  They'll chat you up, they'll answer your questions, they'll engage you. They will serve you incredible food and just make your day better. So we're out in the Westlake Village area. If you take the Westlake Boulevard exit off the 101 freeway, we're at the kind of catty corner to Agora Road. You can find it on Yelp for directions and all that good stuff. Third thing is, if you want to get healthier, of course you do. That's why you're listening to the podcast. If you want to focus your mind, if you want to take your consciousness up a notch, if you want to better fuel your body, if you want to get a better grip on this whole plant-based thing, well, we have stuff for that. I've got two online courses at mindbodygreen.com. One is on plant-based nutrition and the other one is on goal-setting and unlocking

• 5:27Rich Roll?

  your inner potential. The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition is the first one. The second one is called The Art of Living with Purpose. So check those out at richroll.com. We've got nutritional products, we've got a digital e-cookbook. We have a meditation program, we've got merch. So go to richroll.com to find out more and don't forget to subscribe to my newsletter. All right, you guys, on with the show.

• 6:02Rich Roll?

  What's up, guys? We're back. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host of the podcast that bears my name. Welcome one, welcome all.

• 6:12Rich Roll?

  There's so many great podcasts out there. So I appreciate you devoting your attention to this podcast. I mean, every day, we're seeing so many new, great podcasts out there. Personally, I've been really digging on Startup and Serial, which are both brand-new shows, both seeds that have germinated out of the This American Life universe. So I would strongly suggest checking those out. They're both really great. And, you know, people always ask me, "What do you listen to? What are the podcasts you like?" So beyond those two, I guess I would say my regulars are WTF with Marc Maron. I occasionally listen to The Adam Carolla Show. I like Nerdist. I love Radiolab. And some of Joe Rogan's podcasts

• 6:55Rich Roll?

  I find to be very interesting. But, you know, it's cyclical. That's just kind of what I'm listening to now. So, anyway, there you have it. In any event, thank you for listening. Thank you for spreading the word with your friends. Thank you for Instagramming all the cool ways and places where you enjoy the show. And thank you for supporting the show by clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. And hey, man, if you're not doing that, what's up? Come on. The show's free. It will always be free. This is a great way for you to support the show without really having to go out of pocket, because you're probably going to buy something on Amazon anyway. If you take that extra second to click through our banner ad, they kick us some loose change. Does not cost you a cent extra. All right. So I just got back from a great week up in

• 7:40Rich Roll?

  the Bay Area. I was at my 25th college reunion. Translation, I am old. And it was amazing to catch up with a ton of old friends. And while I was up there, I stayed a couple days before and after to record a bunch of great podcasts that are going to be coming your way very soon. I sat down with vegan chef, political activist, and cookbook author Bryant Terry. That was an awesome chat. I met with teen whisperer Josh Ship. That guy was amazing. And also, last but certainly not least, legendary ultramarathoner Dean Karnazis. And I know you guys are really going to want to hear that one. It was really cool. They were all fantastic conversations in their own right, and I really can't wait to share them with

• 8:23Rich Roll?

  you guys. So be tuning in for that in the future. All right. Confession time.

• 8:32Rich Roll?

  I'm the first to admit that I got into this whole plant-based thing for, you know, basically selfish reasons. I was overweight. I felt lousy. I had a health scare. Basically, I just wanted to feel better. I wanted to enjoy my kids at their energy level, and I just wasn't ready to succumb to middle-aged defeat and just sink into the couch. And as embarrassing as it is to admit, I wasn't looking too good at the time. I wanted to look better. So, again, pretty selfish. So I took a leap, and I took that leap without much expectation, I might add. And I could have never, in a million

• 9:14Rich Roll?

  years, predicted what this journey would turn into. It's been long. It's been, at times, very hard, but ultimately extraordinary in every imaginable way. And it's not an understatement to say that everything in my life has changed for the better since I decided to embark on this wellness journey. And I am extremely grateful for all of it. I got everything I wanted. I got my health back. I got my life back. I lost the weight. I looked better. I got fit beyond my wildest imagination. I went on to do things athletically I could have never thought I would ever be capable of. So, really, it's a dream come true in every way, shape, and form. I've learned from recovery that if you want to

• 9:59Rich Roll?

  keep the good things in your life, then you gotta give back. And that's a big reason why I started this podcast, to share what has helped me so much with you. But here's what I didn't get into this for. I didn't get into this to, for example, save the animals. I didn't get into this because I had some grave concern for the environment. I was not a food activist. Food rights issues, political issues like GMOs, factory farming, slaughterhouse conditions, carbon emissions, the deforestation of the rainforest, species extinction, the destruction of our oceans, these were things that were not really on my mind. And that is the honest truth. But, but...

• 10:49Rich Roll?

  As I have walked this path, I have changed. I have grown, and I've said it before. It's like I took the blue pill in The Matrix. And ever so slowly, over the last eight years, whatever it's been, my eyes have started to open, slightly at first, to certain realities about our world and how it functions. Realities that I, you know, I just, I can no longer in good conscience turn a blind eye to. I can't remain ignorant or unconcerned about things that I am seeing. Why? Because it's just not right. I've been blessed with a platform. I've been blessed with an audience, you guys. And I take it seriously.

• 11:33Rich Roll?

  It carries, it carries a certain responsibility. So what is that responsibility? I can't say that I'm entirely sure, but I do know that it entails a commitment to tell the truth. It entails a commitment to help raise awareness around things that are happening, things that affect not just me, but all of us, things that are not right and need to change. The truth is not always comfortable. It's never convenient. But to me, the truth is also that we can do better. I can do better. And if this podcast isn't about that, then what is it? It's just wasted air. To wit.

• 12:15Rich Roll?

  Our fast-paced, hyper-industrialized world lives in a comfortable haze of convenience priority. We go about our day happily and unconsciously, or, I don't know, sometimes even consciously, as a result of fortified efforts on the part of gigantic conglomerates, government, and powerful lobbying interests, disconnected from the process undertaken to bring consumer products into our homes. And the truth is, is that this includes how we raise, feed, milk, slaughter, package, and distribute food to our plates. It's not something I want to look at. It's not comfortable to look at because it forces me, it forces you and me, to snap

• 12:57Rich Roll?

  our denial and truly consider the process at play, warts and all. It's not fun. It's certainly not as fun as riding my bike. I mean, given the choice, and in my earlier incarnation, I'd be the first to look the other way and just go about my day. But I've changed. I can't do that anymore because delusion and ignorance are now more uncomfortable to me than denial. In recovery, they call it, they say, "The road gets narrower." And I didn't used to know what that means, but now I think I get it. And that's what Today Show is all about. And that's why I wanted to sit down with Lisa Lange, the Executive Vice President of PETA, which stands for People for the Ethical

• 13:41Rich Roll?

  Treatment of Animals. So again, I've never been a staunch animal rights activist. I wasn't sure I was all that comfortable with some of the tactics undertaken by PETA to raise awareness and snap that comfortable denial. Why? Well, because it wasn't comfortable to me. But being comfortable is lazy. Being comfortable is at odds with growth. And more often than not, being comfortable flies in the face of truth, personal truth, and truth that affects all of us. And by all, I mean every living thing. So today, I'm owning it. I'm stepping into new terrain. I'm shining a light on certain uncomfortable, inconvenient

• 14:21Rich Roll?

  truths that I now feel it's important to talk about, something it's not okay to ignore. And that is the terrible and inexcusable plight suffered by billions of animals that are abused, tortured, and mistreated as cogs in the massive wheel that is our industrialized food system. Lisa Lange is great. She's a triathlete. She's a woman of strong convictions. I met her several years ago when she visited our home to interview me for a really cool video that aired on PETA. I'll put the link, or I guess I'll embed that in the show notes or on the blog page for the episode. And I thought, she's the perfect person to help me and all of us begin to understand these issues, begin to better consider the rules

• 15:05Rich Roll?

  of this game in which we're playing unwittingly or wittingly.

• 15:11Rich Roll?

  Lisa's a veteran of the animal rights movement and we sit down and we have this really amazing conversation about what we vote for when we buy animal products at the supermarket, what this actually means, pulling the curtain back to reveal realities. I honestly think we should all consider and contemplate when we decide how to allocate our dollars at the market irrespective of your politics or your dietary proclivities. Because ignorance is not cool, no matter who you are. And that dollar that we spend, it's important. It's a reflection of our values. It's our vote for what we want our world to be. And that vote, as small and as insignificant and as disenfranchised as

• 15:52Rich Roll?

  you might feel it to be, it actually is important. A vote we can collectively leverage to create real change, leverage to forge a better world for ourselves, our children, and future generations. So I implore you, even if you're someone with a negative preconception or assumption about PETA, even if you're someone not inclined to entertain the animal rights debate, just set it aside. Set aside those preconceived notions and enter this conversation with an open mind. Because contempt prior to investigation is tantamount to willful ignorance. At our core, I believe that we are all compassionate. And true strength means embracing that core

• 16:37Rich Roll?

  value. Repressing it as some kind of weakness, that is the definition of weakness. So let's do something different.

• 16:55Rich Roll?

  As I was driving over here, I was thinking about the first time we met when you drove out to our house. I guess that was like five years ago, something like that, 2009 maybe? 2008? And you did that wonderful video piece on me. Thank you.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I was so excited.

• 17:13Rich Roll?

  Which was really cool. And you've always been such a loyal and staunch advocate of mine. So I really appreciate that very, very much.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, happily. I mean, you inspire so many people. And I'm always recommending your book to athletes who, you know, are struggling as athletes. I'm like, well, try the vegan thing. And here's who can tell you how.

• 17:35Rich Roll?

  What? Even? No way.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's awesome. And it's worked for so many people, you know? It's just, it's, your book is, is not only inspiring and helpful. It's, it's really interesting. I just, I, you know, I've known you for a little while. When I read the book, I was like, oh, I didn't know that about him. So it's just, it's, it's really good. Keeps people interested.

• 17:57Rich Roll?

  Thanks. I appreciate that.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Here I am plugging it again.

• 17:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the check, the check's in the mail.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  No, I just love it. Yeah.

• 18:03Rich Roll?

  But one of the things that you asked me in the interview, I think it was like the final question is, you know, what is your perspective on animal advocacy and animal rights? And, you know, I very honestly said that was not the impetus for me getting into this lifestyle. It was purely selfish. It was purely health oriented.

• 18:23Rich Roll?

  And so the whole idea of being sensitive or even aware to the issues that surround, you know, how our food is made and the clothes that we wear and, you know, so many aspects of how we live our lives, I was really kind of immunized from or just ignorant of. But, you know, this lifestyle is one of evolution and, you know, progress, not perfection. And kind of evolving over time. And as I've continued to, you know, take this journey and educate myself further, I have become much more interested and aware. And passionate about the kind of issues that you've been speaking to for a long, long time. So this conversation is long overdue.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 19:05Rich Roll?

  And yeah, I'm honored that you take the time to sit here and talk to me about some of the things that you guys do here. So let's just jump into it. I mean, what's, like, what's active right now? Like, what is on the plate that's heated up at the moment?

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Well, there's so much. You know, the SeaWorld campaign is a really big campaign for us. Blackfish came out, as you know, last year and really blew the lid off the marine mammal in captivity industry specifically.

• 19:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that movie had such a huge impact.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:36Rich Roll?

  On changing people's minds about that issue.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I mean, SeaWorld is suffering mightily, especially this year. And, you know, airlines, for example, have stopped doing any sponsorships or promotions of SeaWorld. Virgin America is the most recent one, but JetBlue, United Airlines, Southwest, they se advertise. Stocks have dropped.

• 19:58Rich Roll?

  I didn't even know that airlines did advertising for SeaWorld.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  I know. I know, most people don't know that, but they, you know, they'll do, they promote places to go when you travel to, you know, a certain city. They'll promote destinations in that city and they'll get paid for it by whatever the, you know, the amusement park is or whatever, or hotel chain. So our work is, when we, when we have a campaign like we have against SeaWorld, is that we research all those things. Who are they tied to? Who are some of the corporate sponsors? And we've written to all of them. And, you know, it's just, it's really nice. I've been at PETA for 22 years.

• 20:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  And so it's a completely different world today than it was when I started. Now, we write to a corporation like Virgin America, for example, and say, you know, here's Blackfish, here's what we know to be true, here's our website, SeaWorldofHurt.com. Please check this out and consider, you know, severing ties with this abusive industry. And they listen now.

• 20:57Rich Roll?

  What did it used to be like?

• 20:59Speaker 01

  It was very hard to get a foot in the door, you know, or get a seat at the table to even have the conversation. We were ignored a lot. We were mocked a lot. You know, people just thought, oh, these animal lovers, they'll go away. And I think one of the things that I've loved about PETA for all the years I've worked here is that we're tenacious. We'll take a bite of something and we won't let go. And we have a really good, I mean, you know this very well. We live in a time of social media, which there's a, there's a bad side to that, too, I know. But for us, it's been amazing because we've been able to win campaigns over social media, just through Twitter, or just through Instagram, or that kind of thing. Our Facebook posts are wildly popular. So

• 21:42Speaker 01

  we're very savvy in that area. And I think we now have a reputation for being very savvy and for allowing people to see what's going on behind closed doors like we weren't able to do when we were a younger organization.

• 21:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think savviness is really a touchdown of everything that you guys have done because you've been forced to be scrappy. You know, I remember before you moved into this beautiful building that we're sitting in, going to your offices in the, in the prior, in the prior building, and I was amazed at how small it was. Because you guys pack such a huge punch. Everybody knows PETA. Everybody, you know, is aware of what PETA's going on. And the campaigns that you do garner so much press, you know, positive and negative, controversial, what have you. But I was envisioning like a giant complex of thousands of people working. And then when I realized, when we talked, you know, I realized that the organization is actually much smaller than, than I had conjured up in my mind. And, and I think

• 22:38Rich Roll?

  that scrappiness sort of, you know, through the work that you do and Dan and Ingrid, has really, you know, been about how to leverage people, you know, sort of the celebrities and whatnot, to, you know, kind of rally behind the positions that you're taking that creates so much more of an impact than you would be able to do on your own.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And the thing, I mean, I really credit the staff here, too, because it is a relatively small staff when you consider how much we take on and how much we accomplish. But it's, we've not lost our scrappiness. And we never will. I mean, we are, we're activists first, you know. And I think with the SeaWorld campaign, again, you know, we, they made the shocking decision last year to have a float in both the Macy's Day Parade and the Rose Parade in Pasadena here. And that was a rather ridiculous decision on their part. And they may do it again this year.

• 23:28Rich Roll?

  Opening themselves up to all kinds of criticism.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, the world is protesting SeaWorld and so they're putting themselves on an international stage. You know, celebrating the type of animal abuse that takes place at their amusement parks every single day. So, you know, we're a really good protest organization. We have not lost touch with our roots, but we've also become more sophisticated, using social media, working with wonderful celebrities. Our undercover investigations are more thorough and we have a better way of getting our video footage out than we ever have. I mean, you probably read about recently, and this wasn't an undercover investigation, what we did was we went to the National Institutes of Health and we did a Freedom of Information Act request, saying, "We want all of your video footage of maternal deprivation," and

• 24:17Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, yeah, maternal deprivation and separation experiments and addiction studies you've been doing on monkeys and other animals. And they tried to charge us tens of thousands of dollars for it. We went back to them and said, "Well, you know, you're not allowed to do that."

• 24:29Rich Roll?

  Right, under FOIA, it's free, right?

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Exactly, so they...

• 24:32Rich Roll?

  It might take a while, but...

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 24:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  And we ended up getting 500 hours of footage from them and, you know, the findings are up on our website and that footage was seen all over the world. Some of the worst stuff that you could ever imagine seeing. And now, you know, our website is wildly popular. We launched PETA Latino a few years ago and the NIH maternal separation video is one of the most viewed videos on PETA Latino as well. So, and then the media, of course, we work with the media, you know, around the world and they picked up on this story because it's shocking to see that NIH is still spending millions of dollars doing experiments they were doing in the 1950s, the Harry Harlow

• 25:18Speaker 01

  experiments, where they either kill a mother monkey or in these cases, they were drugging these mother monkeys to see how it affected the babies who thought they were dead. It's heartbreaking stuff.

• 25:28Rich Roll?

  I mean, that was the point, that's the point of those experiments?

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, to understand the relationship between the mother and the baby and then they addict the mothers to alcohol and some drugs and that type of thing. And then, of course, the outcome is, you know, drug abuse, alcohol abuse is bad. And then meanwhile... You know, meanwhile, you've got people out there who are suffering from, you know, horrible mental disorders that, you know, affect them and affect their families and affect society on the whole. People dealing with addiction issues every day that can't get into treatment centers because they're wildly expensive. There's a huge neglected population of people all around the world, but in this country specific, because the funds aren't there. Well, the funds are there.

• 26:10Rich Roll?

  They're just misdirected.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 26:12Rich Roll?

  Right. In antiquated systems that are proving nothing.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 26:16Rich Roll?

  Except the obvious.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and making experimenters money and making money for the people who build the cages and, you know, that kind of thing. But that our government is spending the money there when there are people in need. It's, you know, it's shocking. And there was a very good response to that and still continues to be to that campaign of ours.

• 26:34Rich Roll?

  Interesting. And back to the SeaWorld tip, I mean, I think their stock is down like 30% right now. And, you know, I think in a prior decade, you know, I don't know if the public would have been ready for something like Blackfish. There's something about the zeitgeist right now where there was just an openness in mainstream society to embrace that film, which was very well done, of course, and very powerful, that it's just been received on such an enormous level. So, you know, the kind of things that PETA is doing are now being perceived differently than maybe they would have been in the 90s or the 80s, I think. And you have got, you know, like, like when Steve-O climbs up on the sign and covers, you know, puts SeaWorld sucks up there and everyone's like applauding, you know, that

• 27:19Rich Roll?

  would have been like this super radical kind of thing to do not that many years ago where people would have said, you know, get rid of that crazy guy.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, not that long ago. I mean, when, you know, not that long ago, people were saying to us or corporations, like, we're going to them on fur, saying, stop, you know, selling fur, stop designing with fur. And their response typically was, if we do this, you're going to come after our leather shoes. And of course, our response then was, well, probably, but let's just do one thing at a time.

• 27:46Rich Roll?

  Do one thing at a time.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  And now we are. When we talk about vegan, you know, vegan living as an organization, we're telling people, it's not just what you eat, it's what you put on your feet, it's what you, you know, it's your jacket, it's what you wear. You know, and our audience is receptive. I mean, more young people just couldn't imagine wearing fur now. And then we've done investigations into the down industry recently. We did an investigation into the angora industry. We got most corporations to discontinue selling it. The big names like Ralph Lauren, Calvin Klein, Gap, H and M, all of them discontinued. They pulled angora off the shelves because of our investigation into China angora farms, which is where most of it's produced.

• 28:23Rich Roll?

  So, explain what happens with angora.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, angora, what happens is they have these beautiful rabbits, angora furs from rabbits. I think a lot of people don't even know that. And they take the animals and they tie them down, and they grab fistfuls of their fur, and they literally rip it from their bodies. And in our investigation, which you can see at peta.org.

• 28:48Rich Roll?

  While the animals are still alive.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, they're still alive. And screaming. And, I mean, it's like having your hair pulled out. And then the animals are thrown back in the cage, where often they'll die from the elements, because it's just, or from dehydration or starvation, they go into shock. It is the most horrifying thing you can even think to imagine. And the world responded appropriately. Corporations responded appropriately.

• 29:15Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. I mean, I think so much of it goes back to the advent of the internet, because I think with the internet comes this increased demand for transparency in everything, corporate transparency. And that applies to, you know, how our food is produced, manufactured and distributed, how our clothes are made, everything. And I think as especially young people become accustomed to that kind of transparency and sort of lack of privacy that comes with that, I mean, it's certainly a new generation kind of thing, it becomes increasingly intolerable when.

• 29:50Rich Roll?

  Companies out there are refusing to be transparent. Whereas in the past, you just, there was no, there was no mechanism to educate people about what was going on. There was no demand for it. And now there, now there is, and it's forcing these companies to abandon their old guard, you know, tactics and techniques. And kind of enter into this new world where they, they're compelled to because there's so much pressure on social media to, to fess up or be honest and accountable.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  That's right. And the cool thing about that is, they don't really want to be accountable for the things they're doing because it's ugly, in a lot of cases, you know?

• 30:29Rich Roll?

  And it's all set up to prevent us from understanding how these things are made or produced.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  That's right. And then it's interesting too, because a new frontier for us, of course, is that as a result of people caring about where their food comes from, for example, corporations are coming back and promoting this crazy thing called quote unquote humane meat. And of course, we know there's no such thing as that. They all go to the same slaughterhouses. They're all on the same types of transport trucks. And so, we're really pushing now for some transparency. You call yourself humane, let's see that slaughter. Let people know exactly what humane means when you're killing an animal, because it's never going to be a sustainable way of doing things. And the new documentary, Causplicity, points that out beautifully. It's a great documentary. I know you are promoting like we are.

• 31:12Rich Roll?

  Yes, yes. Fantastic. And it, yeah, it looks at, it's sort of through the lens of, of a guy who's trying to educate himself about, you know, how, how livestock agriculture works. And it's posited to him, well, there's this idea of sustainable meat and these sort of sustainable farms where there's these vast amounts of pastures where the beef, you know, the cattle graze on grass and it's all wonderful. And he kind of looks into it and he's like, well, that's not really actually what's going on. There's a lot of obfuscation there to try to convince people that, that this is really a humane thing, so they feel better about their purchases, when the reality tells a very different story.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I, when I was at that premiere and you were there, I, I could barely sit in my chair. I just wanted to leap out of my chair and... And applaud over and over because of that film. Cowspiracy is just, it's shedding a light where a light needs to, you know, be focused. And that's that, there are a lot of people, really well-intentioned people out there who don't want animals to suffer.

• 32:12Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  But they're looking for that, well, you know, is there a type of meat I can eat? And our answer to that has always been, no, it's never going to be the case. You, quote-unquote humane meat, which doesn't exist, but the idea of it is like saying, well, you know, I kicked the dog six times instead of seven. Certainly it's better, sure, the dog's gonna prefer having one less, you know, jolt to his jaw, but it's, it's always gonna be wrong. It's gonna be bad. And that's, this movie just points that out beautifully. But the thing of it is too, is like, it's easy to watch. Cowspiracy is easy to watch.

• 32:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not like watching Earthlings.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 32:49Rich Roll?

  It's not, you know, it's, it's, it takes a very different approach to introducing people to these ideas in a pretty graceful, accessible way, I think.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, and it's, it's, it's very interesting too, because there are so many people who come to, um, you know, vegetarianism, veganism, specifically through their concerns about the environment. And what he does, he sees it so beautifully done, going to, you know, NRDC and Greenpeace and saying, well, hey, you know, we know that animal agriculture is the largest destroyer of the environment, from the ground to the, you know, the water we drink to the air we breathe.

• 33:22Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  Why is there nothing on your websites? Why do you have no campaigns targeting what is the largest polluter of our world? And he's very respectful about it, you know, and he talks, he wants real answers.

• 33:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's very earnest in that regard. And even after watching it the first time before the premiere, uh, you know, I got involved with the movie after it was completed, just to kind of hop on and, and help promote and raise awareness of it. And I said to Kip and Keegan, like, hey, you know, I know, I know people at the various, you know, sort of organization, like-minded organizations out there, similar to PETA, but different. Let me reach out to them, see if we can get some support, because they were like, well, Lisa at PETA's, you know, she's putting the word out, she's doing a great job. I said, well, let's reach out to some of these others. And they're like, yeah, they're not gonna, you know, they're not gonna bite. And I was like, really?

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:11Rich Roll?

  I was like, I don't know, let me, let me try. And, and I did, I'm not gonna name names, but they all said, we can't, we can't get behind the movie. And, and it really made me realize in that moment, like, this, this sort of conspiracy posited, that there really is this concerted effort to, you know, really not Be upfront in addressing, you know, what goes on in this industry is, is true. Like, it's, it's, it's full on, it's for real.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  And I think that, I think that not only the animals are not served when you don't ask for everything you want on their behalf, but it also, it's disingenuous. You get less if you don't ask for everything that they deserve. It's not our right to say, "Well, can we just make sure that, you know, death comes a little quicker?" Or, "Can we just make sure that the cages are a little bigger?" PETA will, will support animal welfare measures, absolutely. Make the cages bigger, free range, you know, give them more room to walk around. But that is not the end goal. That should never be, they're not our lives to, to, to barter with. I mean, it's not, it's not okay. So, for any organization that says the end goal is that we'll just, you know, we, we

• 35:21Speaker 01

  can, we say, you know, "We don't want cages with pillows, we want empty cages." And so, and the public responds, but you have to tell them, "Sorry, this is the truth here," you know?

• 35:31Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and I think that brings up kind of the basic PETA philosophy, which is very absolutist. Of course, you're going to embrace progress.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:40Rich Roll?

  You know, but the end goal is perfection, and it is absolutist in that regard. And you are like the pit bull that won't let go, very tenacious in that regard.

• 36:00Rich Roll?

  Yesterday, I sat down and did a podcast with Cathy Freston, who's lovely, and she says, she said to say hello.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Oh, good, yeah.

• 36:06Rich Roll?

  But she has a very kind of, you know, like, ease into it kind of perspective, like, it's, which is more palatable for the average person as kind of a welcome mat to introducing this lifestyle.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 36:18Rich Roll?

  Whereas, you guys are taking a pretty hardcore stance, and that creates a lightning rod for controversy. It exposes you to, you know, the, it, it, it provides space for the Bill O'Reillys of the world to get up there and shout from the mountaintops.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:31Rich Roll?

  About how radical you guys are.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Right, which is fine.

• 36:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, which is fine. You guys welcome it, but, you know, it, it really is like any press is good press. Kind of thing in some regard and some of your campaigns are are very specifically kind of conceptualized to attract that kind of attention.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because the worst, the worst thing that can happen is people stop talking about what, you know, about animals and what's going on. And the thing that's wonderful too about Kathy, she recognizes that there are people out there that are not going to go vegan overnight. We don't say everybody will. The thing that she never shies away from is that vegan, a vegan life is the end goal. She suggests that that is the way to go.

• 37:09Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Now, if you need to take your time, whatever, but there are other groups out there that don't do that, which is, you know, again, this isn't to take away from the good things that they're doing. But for us, it's like, well, we're not going to shy away from what the actual answer is, you know, I mean, and that is, they're not ours to eat, wear, use for experimentation or entertainment purposes or abuse in any way. I mean, they value their lives just like we do. They value their families like we do. And we have to recognize that. And once we recognize that, I mean, animal rights really is about equal consideration based on the other's needs. And we should do that with one another. You know, an elderly person's needs are going to be different than a child's needs. But we have to take that into consideration with every person and every being we know.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  My dog doesn't need to be able to drive or vote, but, you know, she wants to sleep with me every night. She wants to have a good meal and, you know, go, go for long hikes.

• 38:03Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  So that's really what it's all about.

• 38:05Rich Roll?

  And the other thing is, is that you, you know, all voices are important, you know, it's sort of Kathy's voice is important, but your voice is important as well. They, they both have their place in this kind of exchange of ideas and you can't have one without the other, you know. Kathy's voice doesn't exist without your voice and the voice of PETA and vice versa.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:25Rich Roll?

  So, you know, it's all important, I think.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:29Rich Roll?

  And, you know, we need somebody who's towing the hard line. And, you know, it brings up a very specific scene in Cowspiracy where Richard Oppenlander is, is asked the question, well, what's wrong? You know, he's, he's hardcore.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Yes, he is.

• 38:41Rich Roll?

  But he knows his shit.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Yes, he does.

• 38:43Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, he is, he's on the case. And somebody says, well, you know, isn't Meatless Monday a great idea? And everybody's embracing Meatless Monday. And he said, well, that's just sort of cosigning on saying it's okay to do the wrong thing six days out of seven.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 38:58Rich Roll?

  You know, and it's like, oh, yeah, actually, I didn't really think about that. So it's that, that juxtaposition of the hard line with the soft landing pad.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's the, you know, we don't do meatless Mondays. I mean, but we recognize that when they happen, like LA, you know, LA City tries to make sure that down at City Hall, there's, you know, they promote meatless Mondays. That's lovely. That is a great thing to do. We believe in meatless Mondays through Sundays.

• 39:28Rich Roll?

  Meatless Monday through Sunday.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  You know, because it is somehow, it's like permission to eat meat six days a week. I mean, when he said it, it was like, that, that, that's exactly right. And I think that it's also asking too little of people. Anyone can do one day without meat, or, or, um, well, it is.

• 39:45Rich Roll?

  That's news to a lot of people, though.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  I guess it is.

• 39:48Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of people that, that, it's just so, they, it's still super radical to them. And we're in our cocoon, you know?

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, except that what I think a lot of people don't realize is, people tend to eat a lot of vegetarian food. You know, they don't necessarily recognize, I mean, unhealthy people are eating a lot of fast food and burgers and fried chicken and that kind of thing, for sure. But your average, you know, there, but there are a lot of people out there that are having a salad for lunch, or are having lots of vegetables, and, you know, and cutting out meat if you're making lasagna, or you decide to make pasta and you don't, you put, like, field roast in it, you know, or a garden, that's like the easiest thing in the world to do. That's not always been the case. Like, you know, when Peter was founded and when I hopped on board, certainly being vegan was a lot harder than it is now. But now,

• 40:37Speaker 01

  it's just the easiest thing in the world. Any grocery store is going to give you those mock meats if you really like the texture. And you and I have talked about that before.

• 40:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Because you're kind of a down-to-the-basics, eat the veggies and health, you know, you're a healthy, healthy eater, I assume you still are, but...

• 40:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course, but, but, you know, I think that the gardenes and the, you know, the sort of faux meats and all of that have their place for people that are transitioning. And I don't recommend that you stick with that in the long term, but if that's what you need in order to feel okay about making the switch, then I think that's a fantastic thing.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 41:12Rich Roll?

  And it's interesting to see kind of the dialogue that surrounds these sorts of products. Like the most recent one, and I was talking to Kathy about this yesterday, is the Stanford professor that came up with the the stuff that tastes like blood that will be infused into the burger, so it tastes more like a real burger. And it's polarizing, you know, some people, you know, somebody who's been vegan for their whole life, or 20 years, or whatever, they've lost the the desire to have that taste. So that that's sort of, you know, unpalatable to them, or a turnoff versus the guy who's been eating burgers every single day for his whole life, and and that might be a good way to try to transition a person like that.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, there's in vitro meat, too. I mean, and from a health perspective, you don't, you know, it's it's it's gonna be better for people because you don't have the antibiotics and all the other stuff. But and for me, I wouldn't eat, I don't need it, I don't want it. I was a huge meat eater, huge. My dad's Cajun, my mom comes from sheep herding family in Wyoming, you know, we ate meat and very few vegetables when I was growing up. It was really bad stuff, you know, so I get it, is what I'm saying. And unfortunately, I never got my dad to go vegetarian. My my mom and my brother are, and you know, I lost my dad a couple of years ago. And I think people are starting to realize that so much is linked to what we eat, you

• 42:37Speaker 01

  know, my dad died of prostate cancer, and it's not just the dying, it's the years of having having it and feeling miserable, you know?

• 42:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the years of degenerating health.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  That's right, that's right. And that's what, that's what I think, you know, people like to kind of say, well, I'm gonna die of something someday, but it's like, yeah, but in the decades beforehand, do you really want to be in the hospital as much as you're gonna be in the hospital? Do you really want to be that big a burden to your family? Do you want to, you know, you want to feel that bad? It's not about the longevity, it's about the quality of life. And that's where those mock meats like garden and field roast and tofu and all of that stuff is really good for people like my, because we gave, we finally told my dad Thanksgiving's vegan, and he was good with it, you know?

• 43:22Rich Roll?

  He was all right?

• 43:23Speaker 01

  He was all right with it, he was.

• 43:24Rich Roll?

  One day out of the year.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, Christmas, too. But so we just made this really great, you know, food that was like stick to your ribs, everything that you eat at Thanksgiving. Without, you know, the dead bird in the middle of the table, you know, and he really liked that stuff. It was just, you know, he was Abbeyville, Louisiana, and those old habits die hard, you know?

• 43:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  But it's so much easier now than it used to be.

• 43:48Rich Roll?

  It is, and it's interesting to see technology kind of take this on and look at it from a different perspective and try to, you know, create new solutions to replace this sort of antiquated, you know, way of producing food, which is livestock agriculture. It's not sustainable, it's not healthy, it's wasteful, it's deleterious to the planet. Like, in every category, you can check the box as to why we shouldn't be doing it.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  I know.

• 44:15Rich Roll?

  And the reason it exists, it's just because it always has and people are used to it. But, you know, it's time to really take a hard look at that system and say, is this really what we want to choose?

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, you know, to get back to Caspira, because I'm just so madly in love with that documentary, the thing that I walked away thinking I think the most was if I were a parent or a grandparent, I would be so frightened of the world we are leaving to our kids. And I want parents to see that movie more than anybody because it's happening fast. Like, we're destroying the world really quickly. And most people are kind of noticing, boy, it's October 15th and it's really hot, you know, and the air quality is really bad. And you look at places like Beijing and you think, that's unlivable. Like, they, you can't breathe that air.

• 45:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  And, I mean, it's happening now. It's not happening tomorrow. We're not saying, oh, you know, in two decades, it's going to be difficult to catch your breath. No, that's like, right now. And I look at people with small children and I think, you gotta, you gotta jump on board. Because the other nice thing about the movie was, it pointed out how optimistic we should be. If people, changing your light bulb to another light bulb, or using less toilet paper, or whatever it is, using reci- recycling, all good stuff. I do it all myself. But it's not going to make the changes we need to make. It's not, it has to be in what we eat. It's not the car you drive as much as what's on your plate when you sit down for breakfast. But if people jump on board quickly, it happens quickly. That's why everybody has to see this film.

• 45:53Rich Roll?

  And I think they will.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do too.

• 45:55Rich Roll?

  They're going to.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:57Rich Roll?

  There's some exciting stuff happening with it right now, so.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Good.

• 46:00Rich Roll?

  Pretty cool.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Good.

• 46:00Rich Roll?

  I'll tell you off record.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Okay, good, good, good, yeah.

• 46:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it is exciting. So, but let's take it back. I mean, you know, how does this all start from you? If you're growing up, you know, eating meat and, you know, living on this farm, I mean, what was the impetus for you to sort of adopt this lifestyle?

• 46:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, for me, it was, um, my mom was very, um, uh, social justice oriented, justice oriented, you know, and everything. She, she taught a lot of life lessons. She, you know, she catered, I mean, not catered, she tutored us a lot at home and, you know, French lessons from the time we were young. She was a stay-at-home mom, which was very, you know, we were very lucky, my brother and I. And some of the lessons she taught us, um, were to just be kind to other people, to animals, to the ants on the sidewalk, you know, to the cats we had in our household, that kind of thing. And it just stuck with me. And I loved animals. We always had companion cats, you know, we had a bunny when I was young.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  And so then, just as time went on and I just learned more, and I remember getting a PETA magazine when I was a teenager. And then when I went to college, um, I volunteered at the local animal shelter. And it was just like, it was not some one magic thing. It was just kind of an awareness that grew for me. And, um, I did the same thing so many people do. So when I was kind of getting into helping cats and dogs and that kind of thing, but I was still eating meat. And when I was 18, my boyfriend at the time had a vegetarian roommate. And I asked her once she was making chili and I said, well, is there, you're not putting meat in that? You know, the same questions people ask us. And she said, no, I'm a vegetarian. And I was like, oh, well, how do, you know?

• 47:43Speaker 01

  So she just, she had patience with me, like, I hope I've been with others. And, and so then we went to lunch the next day and I ordered chicken, which is what people do.

• 47:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  And I said, oh, you don't eat chicken? And she said, well, no, that's an animal. And I was like, you know, it was, I said the same silly things that I hear people say. And then I realized, oh yeah, that's right. And then I just looked into it more. And that was it for me. I was like, oh no, I love animals. I can't eat them.

• 48:09Rich Roll?

  Do you stay in touch with her?

• 48:11Speaker 01

  I do.

• 48:12Rich Roll?

  You do?

• 48:12Speaker 01

  I do.

• 48:12Rich Roll?

  She like, she catalyzed this, this insane activist?

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:16Rich Roll?

  It must be crazy when she sees you on TV and stuff and it all went back to that bowl of chili.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Yes, it did, yes. That's the thing. And I, she lives elsewhere now and we did fall out of touch. We saw each other a couple of years ago and I have told her, I'm like, you know, you did it. You, that discussion over that big pot of chili, that got the whole thing going, you know? And, and then people have just contributed ideas like, you know, all my life and I just, I think the thing is...

• 48:43Rich Roll?

  But it wasn't an overnight thing?

• 48:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 48:44Rich Roll?

  You know, I think that, that's important to point out, you know, certainly there are many people that have this sort of, you know, immediate epiphany, uh, and they, they change everything overnight, but that's not the normal, you know, course of affairs.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. No, and just, I just think the important thing is that people should be open to it. You know, just listen and learn. And the more you do...

• 49:06Rich Roll?

  That should apply to everything.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 49:07Rich Roll?

  All the time for everybody.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:09Rich Roll?

  In all circumstances.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I think, in this again, I think comes from my mom, but it's just like, I, I've always thought when it comes to all kinds of issues, that if someone tells me there's a company that's doing something unjust or they support, you know, they supported Prop 8 or something and keeping, uh, it, it, um, you know, against gay marriage, I'm not gonna shop there, you know? Um, I'll look into it, make sure it's true and all that. I mean, they're people that I trust. But it's just the easiest thing in the world to do. I will just simply shop somewhere else. I will just simply eat something else if I find that it's causing suffering for somebody else. It's the easiest thing in the world to do.

• 49:47Rich Roll?

  But when you were a kid, there wouldn't even be the ability to know the difference. There was the nightly news, you know, and there was the newspaper.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 49:55Rich Roll?

  And that's basically it, unless you're gonna go to the library and find some old book. But now...

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:00Rich Roll?

  You can, you know, go to Vice.com or you can follow Anonymous on Twitter and you can, you know, do your own research and the information is out there for people that are inclined and interested. And so it goes back to that idea of the demand for transparency and you're, uh, and, and again, to the young people because they're really, they're really open to it because they wanna know the truth and they wanna do the right thing.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, they really do. And that's why our P2 division, which is our youth division, has just, it, when... It's astounding how many students of all ages. I mean, we have PETA kids and then we have PETA two, which is like the thirteen to twenty-two year olds. So on college campuses, right now, we're touring the country with something called Eye Chicken. And it's very cool. So we, we have folks who go on to campuses. We've been to Harvard and Brown and NYU and Berkeley and we're going all over the country. And your kids come to the display and you put on these goggles and headphones and you get to, for a couple of minutes, live the life of a chicken.

• 51:05Rich Roll?

  In a cage?

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Well, it starts on a farm. And then the chicken gets plucked and thrown onto a transport truck and taken to the slaughterhouse. And it's not gory at all. So you feel what it's like to be out with your friends in the field and then you feel the fear and you see what it's like to watch your other chicken friends go through this process that is so frightening for billions of chickens every year. And again, we don't punch people in the face with it. It's kind of a sweet experience, but it's been having a tremendous effect on college students because the, the whole idea is just, you know, walk for, in this case, three minutes in the footsteps of an animal and see what they go through.

• 51:46Rich Roll?

  Right, you have this like virtual reality experience.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  It's virtual reality. Yeah, it is. And it's the first of its kind. It's really awesome and I did it myself and kids are responding to it beautifully. And that is really where the change is happening because they're demanding now, I mean, the vegan cafeterias at college campuses, it's unbelievable.

• 52:07Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  You know, they're demanding it and so they're getting it. And then they don't go back. I mean, it's just, they just, this is the way they eat and they don't even really think about it as much anymore. It's just like, yeah, I'm vegan, you know, which for us was, you know, completely different thing, you know?

• 52:21Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. So how many, I mean, are you able to know how many young people are sort of in the PETA camp or, I mean, can you, I mean, you have like three million members total, right?

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and for

• 52:36Speaker 01

  For youth, oh my gosh, um, like we go on Warped Tour, for example, and we get people to sign up for texts and, and, and to be on our street teams. And so there are different categories of activism, really, but it's hundreds of thousands of students and kids of different ages. They're fighting dissection in their high schools. They're getting vegan dining halls on their campuses. They're, you know, um, doing actions against SeaWorld. Um, young, young kids are asking their, uh, schools to discontinue, um, field trips to the circus or field trips to, uh, SeaWorld and that kind of thing. I mean, it's just, it's just amazing to, to watch what students are doing.

• 53:19Rich Roll?

  It must be really gratifying for you too, because you've been in this for so long. Like you've seen the arc, you know, you've seen the evolution. I mean, I think you, you first got involved with PETA. How old were you?

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Well, with PETA, I was 26, but I was with Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.

• 53:34Rich Roll?

  Oh, you were. I didn't know you were with Sea Shepherd before that.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  I was, yes, yes. Still one of my favorite organizations. And, um, and then I also wrote for the Animals Voice magazine. So right out of college, I got involved in animal rights and it was the, you know, it was my focus. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's a completely different world and it's, it's so nice.

• 53:52Rich Roll?

  From meeting, I think you, didn't you meet Ingrid in a jail cell?

• 53:55Speaker 01

  I did, I did. Yes, that's how I was hired.

• 53:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were protesting, it was in 1992, and I was writing for the Animals Voice magazine, which is unfortunately no longer in existence. And they had, uh, told me I could fly to Pennsylvania to cover, um, this pigeon shoot that took place in Hagens, Pennsylvania every year where about 8,000 birds were shot out of the sky by mostly drunk hunters and on Labor Day. And because the magazine was no longer going to be around, I was able to go and be a part of the civil disobedience. And so about 50 of us ran out onto the field to rescue the birds, or in my case, I ran distraction. So. Right before they, basically it was a live skeet shoot.

• 54:39Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  So they would load these poor, dehydrated, starving birds that they'd been capturing for weeks prior to the shoot into these cages. And they would yell, whatever it is they yell, and people would free the birds, the birds would fly, just, or they'd be catapulted up out of these cages and they'd be shot out of the sky. And the wounding rate was 60%. So, I mean, most of these animals were shot and died from their wounds. They weren't even killed outright, which is still appalling, but, I mean, to know that they suffered, and they'd have their heads pulled off by 12-year-old kids and from the neighboring communities. And so, so anyway, I ended up in jail.

• 55:16Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  And for 12 days with Ingrid, I was in the same cell block as PETA's founder and president, Ingrid Newkirk.

• 55:24Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  And...

• 55:25Rich Roll?

  And she hired you in the jails.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  She did.

• 55:28Rich Roll?

  In the jails.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, she gave me the job offer. And I knew going in that I wanted to work for PETA. And there was a job that happened to be open in managing the campaigns department. So we had, you know, 12 days to get to know each other. And she interviewed me in the corner of the cell block and, and the rest is history.

• 55:43Rich Roll?

  You've been here ever since?

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 55:45Rich Roll?

  So 20 years?

• 55:46Speaker 01

  22 years.

• 55:48Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  22 years.

• 55:49Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh. And, and Dan has been here just as long, right?

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Longer.

• 55:54Rich Roll?

  Or longer?

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, how long's it been for him? I think it's like, it's close to 30, if it's not 30 already. Yeah. Yeah.

• 56:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's amazing, too. I mean, I listened to a podcast with him a while ago with Alec Baldwin.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:09Rich Roll?

  Uh, did you listen to that?

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:11Rich Roll?

  It was great. And the story that he told about Calvin Klein was amazing. You know, how he, how he convinced Calvin Klein to stop using fur was, was riveting. And it goes back to what you were saying about, you know, the pit bull that doesn't let go.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:25Rich Roll?

  Because he was so tenacious and was really able to, you know, change that guy's mind, this, this leader in the fashion industry. And it speaks to, you know, the results that you get when you do decide that you're going to be the one who's going to be uncompromising.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:43Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 56:44Speaker 01

  And, but you have to be smart about it, too. You know what I mean? It's not just creating a ruckus for the sake of creating a ruckus. There has to be an end goal. You have to know what you're aiming for. And with Calvin Klein, I was at that protest. I was one of the people who did the, the, it ended up being a sit-in. And

• 57:00Rich Roll?

  Right, so just walk us through the story, because it's an interesting story.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we had, and is always our way, we'd been communicating with Calvin Klein, and asked him, showed him the evidence of what happens to animals on fur farms, and asked him to stop designing with it, and he was unresponsive. And so, we went to his offices in New York and decided to do a sit-in, and on his bright white wall that said, you know, says Calvin Klein, and one of us spray painted "Kills Animals" underneath it. And a reporter went up with us, and then several people just sat in his office and occupied his office. And, you know, that's a tactic that you use in protests in general, when they won't sit down with you, and they won't do the right thing, based on the evidence that they're provided.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  And I think that it's really important for people to understand that tactics are used because they work, and because they're needed, because someone needed a wake-up call. And in that case, Calvin Klein was, he was really quite wonderful. I mean, he called us within a couple of days, sat down with Dan, and within a week, he was no longer designing with fur, and he's never gone back to it.

• 58:11Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  And he understood.

• 58:12Rich Roll?

  And he's like friends with Dan now.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  That's right. I mean, the case there was like, it was, I think that he understood that he was kind of, I mean, frankly, people are busy, you know, and they're doing their own thing, and they're not paying attention to something, and sometimes you've got to rattle the cage a little bit to say, "Hey, listen, I'm talking to you," you know? And that was a good instance of that. And, so, you know, I think that people need to realize that sometimes you've got to maybe be a little uncomfortable, and do something that you're, you know, confrontation is not a comfortable thing. And it isn't for everybody, you know? And that's another great thing about social media, is that you don't have to be a quote-unquote, you know, "street activist", someone who's going to go and protest out in front of the circus, to have a really tremendous effect, you know?

• 58:56Rich Roll?

  But there's this conscious decision that gets made on occasion to cross the legal boundary, right? So, for example, in the case of Calvin Klein, you make this decision, you're going to defame his logo, like, in his offices, and occupy, you know, so you're breaking the law. You're consciously and willingly breaking the law. There was a conscious decision to do that, and you were all arrested for that, right?

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:18Rich Roll?

  You went to jail for hours long for that. And I think, you know, when you, when you say the name, PETA, a lot of people will just immediately think of, you know, crazed people throwing fake blood on, you know, people in fur coats, walking down the street.

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:34Rich Roll?

  They have some idea, right, that that's what it's all about.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:37Rich Roll?

  So, you know, I'm interested in getting a little bit more clarity in letting people know kind of what the core mission is and maybe disabusing people of, you know, that sort of misguided ideal.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, most of what we do isn't the fancy stuff. Most of what we do isn't, you know, people aren't necessarily hearing about, we do so much behind the scenes negotiating and strategizing, you know. So, I mean, the vast majority of corporations that come along on the SeaWorld campaign, for example, I mentioned a number of the airlines and, you know, or the, you know, more than 1,200 companies are no longer testing their products on animals.

• 1:00:15Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  You know, and the good news recently too is that the entire country of India has banned cosmetic testing on animals.

• 1:00:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's amazing.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  And they just announced that they're also not going to allow the importation of any products that were tested on animals. And that is a PETA campaign. That is something that we've been working on, and that is not a huge protest campaign. That's just a lot of education. So, so many of our victories happen because we are sitting down with people or we're using social media, that kind of thing. Protest happens when, you know, a Ringling Brothers comes along and Kenneth Feld does not care that those animals live in chains and that they're beaten with bull hooks every day. It just doesn't, it's, it's not, doesn't even register for him. But where it does register is with people. And when mothers, for example, hear about how the way a baby elephant is trained, because

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  they have to get them early to start paying attention to the person instead of paying attention to their own mother, is they physically separate them from their mothers. And this, remember, is an animal who will stay with their families and their herd their entire lives. So, baby elephants are taken from their mothers forcibly, in chains, they're forced to do things that are uncomfortable for them, scary for them, standing on their heads.

• 1:01:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they're not, they're not naturally inclined to do all these tricks.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:01:37Rich Roll?

  They have to be browbeaten into them.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  That's right. So a bullhook is used on a baby elephant from a very, very young age.

• 1:01:43Rich Roll?

  Right. So explain what the bullhook is.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So the bullhook is a long metal rod with, that looks, it's about the size of a fireplace poker. And on the end of it, it has a hook that's very, very sharp. And it's used to intimidate elephants. They're hit normally on their ears, which are very thin and very sensitive, between their toes, behind their legs, on their trunks, where they're most able to. And then, you know, on their, on their entire bodies, basically, to make them move. And, you know, they're beaten with them. And it is, it's the way elephants in the circus live. Besides the fact that they are separated from their families.

• 1:02:23Rich Roll?

  Is this specific to Ringling Brothers? Or is this a practice that occurs in basically any circus that has an elephant?

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  It's any circus that has an elephant, unfortunately. We're working, you know, to try to get, there's a guy named Hugo, Hugo Leibel, that has this poor elephant named Nosie, who is suffering terribly. One of the leading killers of captive elephants is arthritis. They get terrible arthritis in their feet and they get other infections on their feet because they're standing on hard surfaces their entire lives. And they also don't move like they should because they're usually chained. And so it is the leading cause of death in captive elephants is foot problems, foot ailments, whether they're infections or arthritis. And Nosie's suffering from it terribly. Karen and Nicole are two female elephants with Ringling that are on tour, constantly performing and have arthritis.

• 1:03:13Rich Roll?

  And there's laws in place, right, to protect performance animals who are ill or injured, correct? But the problem is that these circuses move around and the states have different laws and it becomes very difficult to police.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:03:26Rich Roll?

  So who's in charge of sort of oversight? Like who, what government agency is supposed to be paying attention to this?

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  Well, unfortunately, it's the USDA, which is... You know, the agency is failing animals on every single front. This is an agency that is responsible for how animals are treated in slaughterhouses and in circuses, you know, and they're doing none of it right. I mean, it's just, USDA did slap Ringling Brothers with a $270,000 fine a few years ago, which is the largest fine ever levied against an animal circus by the USDA.

• 1:04:01Rich Roll?

  But, and that was also because, basically, of a change of the guard there, right? Like, when Obama came into office, wasn't there something about who, the new, the new chief there?

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Well, I think-

• 1:04:12Rich Roll?

  What happened?

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think more than anything, it was just like, we were at the USDA over and over and over and over again. I mean, we are basically doing their job for them. We are handing in the information, the proof of the violations of the Animal Welfare Act. So, back to your question, basically, there is an Animal Welfare Act that dictates a number of things on a federal level. How animals should be slaughtered, that they should be rendered unconscious before feeling pain in the laboratory, you know, how they need to be treated, how elephants need to be treated in the circus. So, it's all, well, a lot of it, and there are minimal standards, by the way. Nothing is, is, is, it's, it's not an animal rights document by any stretch of the imagination. And the USDA is responsible for enforcing the Animal Welfare Act.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  So, and, and they, they simply don't.

• 1:05:01Rich Roll?

  They just don't do it. And, and that's because they're bought and paid for. I mean, what is, you know, or is it lack of funds? It's lack of interest? Is it because they're in the back pocket of the lobbying groups that-

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:05:12Rich Roll?

  You know, support the big agricultural companies? Or, you know, what's, what's going on behind the curtain?

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  I think it's a little bit of everything, actually. It's, um, that they, they, they're not motivated to do the right thing, you know? But they are, also are understaffed. So, if you have a couple of inspectors responsible for all of the circuses that are touring, and Ringling itself has, I think, four touring units, maybe it's three, but it's, you know? They don't have enough inspectors to be there, but they're also not doing the job when the evidence is handed over to them.

• 1:05:44Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  So I think it's, it is a little bit of everything. And, and again, the US, the USDA answers to Congress, so if Congress wants to update the Animal Welfare Act, I mean, it takes, it actually takes a Congress to do it. And that's where you start getting into their beholden to their biggest donors and, and to industry. And so that's why-

• 1:06:04Rich Roll?

  It's a political loser.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  That's right, that's right. No good will come of, of it for a guy who's trying to get elected. He's just trying to coast by and cause as little much of a, you know, storm as possible so that he can get elected for his next term. And that's why with PETA, we do very little to none, no legislative work, because where we see the change happening is in the consumer. We're going directly to the consumer and saying, you know what, the government's going to fail these animals, but you, you don't have to. When you sit down to breakfast, you can decide that you're going to help those animals in slaughterhouses by simply not eating the rotting corpses, you know? And by simply not going to the circus or by going to SeaWorld and only using household products and cosmetics that are not tested on animals.

• 1:06:48Rich Roll?

  And the legislation will come, right?

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:06:51Rich Roll?

  And it is happening, right? Isn't there an Orca Protection Law that's being debated at the moment?

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:56Rich Roll?

  I don't know what the latest is with that.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:58Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's really very similar to the SeaWorld, you know, what's going on with Ringling Brothers and the elephants is so analogous to SeaWorld and, and the, and the whales. I mean, it's the same thing, essentially.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  That's right, yeah.

• 1:07:09Rich Roll?

  And, and I think the level of awareness created by that movie could easily spill over into this issue and-

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  And it is.

• 1:07:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  It definitely is. All these documentaries are so great because they're getting in and just taking kind of, you know, Gabriella Cowperthwaite, I'm sure she has an opinion about SeaWorld now, but she didn't go into, into it with Juan. She was fascinated by, she's a director, I'm sorry, of Blackfish. So she was fascinated by these stories about Tilikum. The whale who killed Don Branshaw, the trainer in, I think, 2010. Just kind of fascinated like we all were by that story. And she went in and then she delved, and then she had to deal with those people from SeaWorld. You know? So- Really don't want the transparency that you're talking about.

• 1:07:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  You know, and it's interesting too, because there's a Marine Mammal Protection Act that dictates how marine mammals should be treated and held in captivity. And the National Marine Fisheries Service is responsible for overseeing that, and they ignore it. I mean, there are animals being transferred from park to park that are not being accounted for in, in the inventory that the Marine Mammal Protection Act is supposed to maintain. It's like, it's, it's, it's a farce. I mean, it's just, it's the most ridiculous thing. So that's why it's important that people just say, you know what, I don't want any part of that. I don't want to pay for a corporation like SeaWorld to separate mother orcas from their babies, which is, you know, damage they feel for their entire lives.

• 1:08:35Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  And it's working. People are, by and large, pretty kind.

• 1:08:41Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  And they don't want that type of thing to happen.

• 1:08:44Rich Roll?

  It's an easy sell, though, when you're talking about these, these very noble animals like these, these incredible whales, or the elephants, or the dolphins, and what's going on in Japan. But when you really think about it objectively, and kind of take your, you know, sort of human, uh, subjective opinions about animals out of the equation, it's kind of insane that we, that we do this species differ- differ- differentiation.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:09:11Rich Roll?

  Right? Like, well, it's okay to eat cattle, but it's not okay to eat a dog, or a horse, or a monkey.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  I know, it's so odd to me.

• 1:09:18Rich Roll?

  It's very odd, right? And, but we're just culturally and socially kind of, you know, programmed to hold these beliefs that are kind of just not really real, right?

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  It's interesting.

• 1:09:30Rich Roll?

  And so, I think it's important to shine the light on these, it, you know, when you, when you're talking about these amazing animals, it's very, it's much easier for people to get on board.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  It, it is.

• 1:09:40Rich Roll?

  But then, as you kind of go down the line of species, and you start talking about chickens, and pigeons, and things like that, it becomes more challenging for people to kind of, you know, sort of, jump on the bandwagon.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:52Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's-

• 1:09:52Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's gotta be more challenging, right?

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:09:54Rich Roll?

  To get people excited about, you know?

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, rats in laboratories versus chimpanzees.

• 1:09:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, you know, but thankfully, that is changing. And, you know, when I, um, worked for Sea Shepherd, which I loved, I focused on the captivity issue. And there was a day that finally came for me where I was like- I feel like I'm championing the rights of very popular animals. And goodness knows, there's so much work to do there. I mean, you know, look at the Faroe Islands. Look at what's going on in Japan with the wholesale slaughter of these dolphins. And look what's going on at SeaWorld. But I felt inside me that I needed, I needed to speak up for the rat. There's no difference between him and my companion animals at home in terms of how they feel fear and pain. And they, you know, they want to avoid the knife, just like I do.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  And so I think, I remember too, not long after I started at PETA, HBO put out this amazing documentary, and it was kind of in the early days of this type of thing going on. And it was called, um, uh, Animals, I think it was called Animals to Love or to Kill. And what they did was took a, you know, a look at the way animals are regarded in different cultures. And so they were, they were in the Middle East, they were in the United States, they ended in the United States, which was interesting. They did this, they've got horrible footage of dogs being killed in China. People went nuts. Our phones were ringing off the hook about the dogs in China. And our response to them was, was, we're, we're glad you were affected by this, but

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  what we're asking you to do is now take a little bit of a leap and realize that what, exactly what you saw going on with dogs in slaughterhouses in China is going on with cows and chickens and pigs and, and turkeys here in this country. And there is no difference, except for how we feel about them. And that can't be, and that's not enough. We have to consider who they are. And, and we, and people are starting to.

• 1:11:46Rich Roll?

  Right. If, once you make the emotional connection with the animal, it changes. But again, it goes back to the system being structured to prevent that and the, the sort of dissonance that occurs. Because people don't want to know. They don't want to know, because if they're challenged in that belief, they know deep down, because we're all inherently compassionate, that it might, it might require that they're going to have to change their behavior. And people don't like to change. I don't like to change.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  No, no, it's true.

• 1:12:12Rich Roll?

  You know, I don't, I don't want to have, I don't want to be told that there's yet another thing that I have to give up, that I enjoy.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  I know, I know. That's natural.

• 1:12:20Rich Roll?

  So, it's not popular.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  No, no. And I get it.

• 1:12:34Rich Roll?

  Really, when you get down to brass tacks, the way I look at it, kind of from a historical perspective is, you know, humans have evolved. Throughout the course of human history, we're slowly progressing in the expansion of civil rights. There's this gestalt of expanding civil rights. And you look at slavery and what's happened there, and kind of progressing it towards what's happening now with gay rights and gay marriage. And this is the next frontier of that. This is just a natural evolution of a growing, progressing civil rights movement to get people to expand their awareness and understand that we share the planet with these other helpless beings, and it's incumbent upon us to show greater compassion and responsibility for them.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned earlier, but I feel very grateful to have the perspective I have because just with 22 years at PETA, I remember there were all those discussions about, "Do animals feel pain?", which was so odd. It's like, well, it's a scientific fact that they feel pain. But it was just all so new to people, like, you know, just this new consideration that we were asking for. And now, it is. It is all part of just a greater awareness. It's the next part of the civil rights movement, as you say. Although, there's still so much work to be done on those other issues, too.

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  But the thing that's nice about animal rights is we're not asking you to... You don't have to really do anything to bring about huge change. You actually have control in your life with what you eat and what you wear and what you buy at the store. You don't even have to think about it beyond... A shopping trip or grabbing something out of the fridge. You know, some of these other civil rights movements, you know, they, they demand that you, we do have to get out there and protest and we do have to speak out and that kind of thing. For the gay rights movement, I've been very involved in that. And that is, it's, it's not just enough to just kind of sit and have a belief necessarily. You know, go out and get on the phones and go and protest and that kind of thing on behalf of people who maybe have a different lifestyle than you do.

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  With animal rights activism, it's just simply the things that you choose to eat and buy. You don't even have to think about it once you know what you're doing.

• 1:14:54Rich Roll?

  Well, and also there was this, you know, sort of idea that's now been debunked that you, that, well, we have to eat animals. We have to, it's just part of, you know, nature. This is the natural cycle of things and we're realizing like, no, actually, we don't have to. And actually, it's better if you don't.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:11Rich Roll?

  It's better for the planet, it's better for your health.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:14Rich Roll?

  Like, it's a win-win in every category. Like, it's, it's a no-brainer. It's just, it's a new idea. It's an uncomfortable idea for people that are, you know, haven't been exposed to it before.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, people are so funny about their food. And this comes from someone who waited tables for years and years and years. So I know, you know, just people, they're just very, food is just a thing with people.

• 1:15:38Rich Roll?

  Well, it's emotional.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:15:39Rich Roll?

  It goes to the very core, you know, it goes to, you know, back to how you feel loved and how you give love.

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:46Rich Roll?

  It goes to community and family. So it has its tentacles and a lot of complicated, you know, psychological avenues, I think.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it definitely does. And so you're, you're, you're, you're really going into the lion's den there. I mean, it's like, you're absolutely right. It's tied to such emotion and tradition. And so when we're asking people, oh yeah, you know, that thing you look forward to every year in November, Thanksgiving, that, it, it's, you know, centered around this poor bird. Forty million of them are killed at Thanksgiving alone, seventy million in this country every year in horrible ways. And we're, we're tapping them on the shoulder and going, oh, do you think you could try something vegetarian? And it's like, but my family and this has been in, this recipe's been in my family for so many years, you know, I mean, that was my family. We have those old family recipes that we used. And I went to my mom and said, you know, instead of putting the pork in that, we have

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  a Basque recipe, my family's Basque, and this Basque stuffing recipe. And it called for sausage. And, and, um... You know, chicken stock. And she said, well, we'll tweak it, you know? And it was, you can't tell the difference in the taste, you know? It was my grandmother's recipe. But it is asking, people feel like it's asking a lot of them. Them, but in the end, it's just, it is truly the easiest thing that you can do.

• 1:17:05Rich Roll?

  What about this argument or idea that you hear from somebody who's an avid hunter? Who will say, well, there's, you know, these animals, they're, they're, we have, we have to, we have population control that we need to enforce. Like, there's too many deer, like, we need to hunt them. This is actually a service that we're providing.

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:23Rich Roll?

  What is the, what is the counterpoint to that? I mean, what is the truth behind that?

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, if, if, I love the whole idea, we need to kill to prevent them from dying. Like, it's so crazy on so many levels. But if hunting actually worked in keeping population, populations of animals down, then we would have solved it a long time ago. The thing is, hunters shoot the animals they want to put on the wall. They're not out there doing it because it's a magnanimous thing to do to save deer from starving. Wildlife populations manage themselves. If there's not enough food, they have smaller litters. They breed fewer animals. They go where the food is. And hunters will manipulate so that there are enough animals to be able to shoot during hunting season every year. And any, any hunter who is being honest with you and candid and just comes out and says,

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  you know what, I just like to shoot living animals, is gonna, is gonna tell you, it's got nothing to do with, with managing the population so that they don't die of starvation.

• 1:18:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a desire to protect an activity that they enjoy doing. And to create an argument that supports it, that removes that dissonance, that allows them, you know, when that sort of compassionate spark starts to flare, they're able to dim it with that argument that this is a necessary thing.

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  Right, which is crazy. It's crazy. And the thing is, you know, so few people, it's maddening because so few people, it's like, I think the statistic is that less than 7% of the population in this country hunts, and yet they control public lands. You know, and, and, and that's just, you know, that's just wrong. That's, that's where these animals should live. That's where those of us who like to hike and be out in it should be able to do that without worrying about hunters coming and killing the animals that, I mean, and, you know, we, we, we're both triathletes. Um, to different successful.

• 1:19:07Rich Roll?

  Very good.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  But I was on a ride in a local mountain range, um, a few years ago and I'm like riding up this mountain. And there it's like there are hunters scattered up and down and I don't even know what season it was, you know, and. I, you know, that changed my job for the day. You know, I was, I was like, what, you know, and they're standing there in their garb that makes them look so silly and they've got these big expensive guns. And they're just waiting for some a- a- poor animal to amble in front of them. There's no overpopulation of anything in these local mountains. I mean, it's just, they're out there with their big trucks and they're having fun.

• 1:19:45Rich Roll?

  Right. That was, that was something that was really interesting about conspiracy too, that I didn't know was the extent to which, uh. We lease, uh, government owned land to cattle farmers to graze cattle. And the extent to which the government will then control the populations of other animals that interfere with that ranching. So.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Wolves.

• 1:20:10Rich Roll?

  You can call, you can call up whoever it is and say, hey, I got wolves, you know, they're, they're, they're threatening my cattle. And they just take them out.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  They do. Animal damage control is what, what it's called. They go out and they kill cougars, wolves, coyotes. Any kind of wild animal when a rancher says, oh, this land that I'm allowed to graze on that doesn't belong to me.

• 1:20:30Rich Roll?

  Getting for pennies on the dollar because it's subsidized.

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. The whole thing. And it's destroying the land. It's destroying the wildlife. It's destroying your health. It's crazy. It's cra- you know, it's just, it's not right. And it's a very small number of people benefiting from a huge gift from the government. And the animals are dying horrible deaths as a result of it.

• 1:20:49Rich Roll?

  One of the things, getting back to this idea of transparency that I want to talk about, and I hope you can sort me out here. Is, uh, what is going on with these ag gag laws? I mean, PETA is right in the middle of all of this. And, and actually, you know, a lot of PETA's work over the years has contributed to these laws even being on the books. Um, and. You know, as a lawyer, you know, I'm trying to wrap my brain around these laws.

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 1:21:13Rich Roll?

  And even conceptualize what a constitutional argument would be.

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:21:17Rich Roll?

  But, you know, walk me through what exactly these laws are and what they're doing and kind of what's going on with them currently.

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  Well, the ag gag laws are coming up, and I think that the good news is that they're in direct response to the success of, you know, the vegan campaign and that fewer people are eating meat and that it's these undercover investigations on hog farms, turkey farms, in dairy farms, showing people exactly where their food comes from, it's turning people off that type of abuse and more towards veganism. So it's a desperate attempt to try to stop people from seeing and, you know, lifting the curtain. And so what's happening is these ag gag bills that say that it's a criminal offense to go on to a factory farm or slaughterhouse and film what goes on there, you can be charged

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  with and thrown in jail for doing that.

• 1:22:10Rich Roll?

  Is it that you, if you're on the property under false pretenses, or what is the exact language?

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  It varies state to state. So in some cases, they're saying...

• 1:22:19Rich Roll?

  So it's not a federal law, it's state by state law?

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  It's state by state, yeah. And we've defeated in a lot of states because it's a violation of our constitutional rights.

• 1:22:29Rich Roll?

  It's a clear violation of the First Amendment.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  That's right, that's right. It's...

• 1:22:34Rich Roll?

  So has any of these ever been gone up to the Supreme Court?

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  No, not yet. It'll probably happen, though. But, you know, people should be allowed to see what goes on there. And of course, the meat industry doesn't want you to see it.

• 1:22:47Rich Roll?

  Of all industries, we should be able to know how our food is made.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 1:22:52Rich Roll?

  That seems to be like a basic, you know, maybe not a constitutional right, but certainly, you know, something that we should all, regardless of whatever your dietary preference is, you should know how your food is being made and what's in it.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. And if you're still okay with it once you see it, then, you know... Currently, you're allowed to do that, but, you know, but that's exactly right. People should be allowed to see how their food is being made. Undercover investigations, I mean, the USDA is not there. The local agencies that should be, that are tasked with anti-cruelty statutes, which a lot of, you know, on these factory farms, all kinds of laws are being broken. Local animal cruelty statutes, meaning state animal cruelty statutes. The Animal Welfare Act is being violated, right? I mean, these animals are regularly being sexually assaulted. They're regularly being beaten with gate poles and with wrenches. They're having their throats slit where they're fully conscious and able to feel pain in violation

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  of federal and state law, and no one is there to catch them doing it.

• 1:23:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's no, the law, whatever laws exist, exist, but there's no enforcement or oversight, really.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  That's right, that's right. And so, we've been left, PETA and other organizations have been left going on to these farms and documenting and handing the information over to law enforcement. That's who it's going to, you know, and it's going out to the public to be able to see. But there hasn't been an occasion where we've done an undercover investigation on a factory farmer in a slaughterhouse where we haven't tried to get the law enforcement to move in and have been hugely successful at getting charges pressed against farm managers, against companies for abusing animals in illegal ways. And if you take that away, then they have carte blanche to do whatever they want.

• 1:24:29Rich Roll?

  Right, so, in the, in the states where these ag gag laws are in effect, that's really put a damper on your ability to do what you guys do there, right? So, do you just have to halt the way that you do business, or do you find new ways of trying to get to the bottom of what's happening? Or, you know, what's, what's the, you know, how do you pivot?

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  Well, you, you, we're fighting them, first of all, and we're getting a lot of them defeated, thankfully. And then, we're just kind of constantly reassessing how we get around that. But, we have to get around it, you know? People, people have to be able to see what's going on, so...

• 1:25:04Rich Roll?

  What's the law in California right now?

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  It was defeated here. It was the ag gag law in California, if I remember correctly, because there have been so many of them, was defeated here.

• 1:25:12Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:13Rich Roll?

  Interesting. And beyond the ag gag laws, there are these other laws, too. Like in conspiracy, Howard Lyman talks about the law that he allegedly violated when he went on Oprah. So I want to talk about that law.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was crazy.

• 1:25:26Rich Roll?

  And then he talks about the Patriot Act.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, food disparagement laws.

• 1:25:29Rich Roll?

  Right. So let's talk about that.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, that's, that's less of a problem now, I think, but it is, there was a movement to try to get it so that it was illegal to say bad things about certain kinds of food, which is...

• 1:25:42Rich Roll?

  Right. This idea that if you said something that would interfere with profits.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:25:46Rich Roll?

  Right? Or do you interfere or do you have a negative impact on profit? I don't know.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, somehow affect a company's profits. So if you, you know, you said bad things.

• 1:25:56Rich Roll?

  That's insane.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  I know. It's crazy. It's freedom of speech.

• 1:26:00Rich Roll?

  That's, that's like, are we in a dictatorship?

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  I know. And those didn't do as well. The food disparagement laws didn't do as well here.

• 1:26:06Rich Roll?

  Were they on the books anywhere?

• 1:26:08Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. I don't think so. I don't think so. But it kind of grew into ag gag, though.

• 1:26:15Rich Roll?

  Right. It kind of morphed into that.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:26:17Rich Roll?

  But what, so what was, what law was Howard Lyman prosecuted? What, what was he?

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  That?

• 1:26:22Rich Roll?

  What did he get in trouble with when he went on Oprah? I mean, what were, what were the laws that they were hanging his case on?

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, oh, my gosh, that case was so old.

• 1:26:30Rich Roll?

  I mean, it was a long time ago.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  And I knew it so well at the time. That might have been food disparagement. I don't remember. I think part of it was that, that, you know, they, which is, you put together an hour-long program, you're going to have to cut a lot of the footage that you shoot. I mean, that's like, if you have a nanny cam, you're going to have the nanny on camera for eight hours during that day. She's maybe going to hit your child for about five minutes of it. It doesn't make it less significant. Those are the five minutes that matter. But a lot of times when you shoot this undercover stuff, they say, well, let's look at the other eight hours. Okay, well, the other eight hours, there was no one in the room. But for that five minutes when you were beating that animal, that's what was illegal.

• 1:27:13Speaker 01

  And so I think part of this, if I remember correctly, part of that situation was the Food Lion case, was that they tried to argue that there was more there that the public didn't see. But, yeah, but what you were selling was like, you know, really bad food.

• 1:27:27Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:27:29Rich Roll?

  And what about this Patriot Act thing that he's talking about? So he's basically saying now, if you get up and say anything negative about these, you know, agricultural industries, ongoing concerns, that you can be found in violation of the Patriot Act. Is that true? Like, that just sounds...

• 1:27:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:49Rich Roll?

  Like, what is that, what is he really saying?

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think, you know, our general counsel speaks to this so beautifully, so I'm probably gonna massacre it a little bit. But what, what happened was, in post-September 11th, America, all kinds of crazy interests jumped on to say, you know, to get that, while there was, you know, fear of, of interference with our, our lives, you know, on a terrorist level, people jumped in and said, "Well, let's, let's, let's protect all kinds of, you know, private interests." And so, at that time came, you know, the idea that if you, if you protest, and a lot of this is like abortion clinic stuff, so like, if you protest and you get in the way

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  of business practices, you prevent someone from carrying out their business. If you claim something, or you tell, you say something is cruel, or you block people from being able to go in and buy their hamburger, then they can turn around and say that that is a violation of, of, of the, of that law. You know, there's the animal terrorism, there's the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act.

• 1:28:58Rich Roll?

  And what is it, what does that basically say?

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  That is, that's an act, which, which is ridiculous, because the laws are on the books right now. If you go on and you set fire to some building, that's already illegal, you know? But what they tried to do is to tack on to that, that that's also interference with, that's, that's an act of terrorism, and that's, you know, that's interfering with business and that kind of thing.

• 1:29:21Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:23Speaker 01

  And they got, they tried to just kind of paint everything with this big, broad brush. And if you, so, you know, we had to really pay attention to that. It didn't stop us from doing what we intended to do. It didn't stop us from protesting. But they really did try to send a chill through the animal rights movement. So there was even, you know, there were, there was insane talk of if you're protesting in front of a fur store and that somehow is turning people away from going into that fur store to buy, then that's somehow an act of terrorism because you're intimidating people away from going in and doing what they should be allowed to do. I mean, they really tried to paint that with a broad brush.

• 1:30:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically, taking this insanely expanded definition of what it means to be a terrorist.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 1:30:08Rich Roll?

  And, you know, Will Potter speaks to this.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Beautifully, yeah.

• 1:30:11Rich Roll?

  This idea that, you know, animal rights activists are basically, you know, the new domestic terrorists.

• 1:30:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:30:18Rich Roll?

  And they're on watch lists everywhere and being monitored, including his talks and lectures, et cetera, as a threat to commerce, really.

• 1:30:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the thing. It's big business. It's big business that's being threatened, so they're trying to find a way that, you know, makes people afraid or that, you know, broadens the law that is very specific to, you know, terrorist organizations that do want to cause people harm. And, you know, it's just, it's, it's just, it makes such a mockery of the things that we actually do need to be concerned about. I mean, there were thousands of families that were affected by the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and, and across, you know, over, over, sorry, Pennsylvania. And people grabbed onto that to make it their own, to protect their own businesses. I mean, the fur industry came out post-September 11th with advertisements saying, "At a time

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  when we need comfort, fur is your comfort fabric." I mean, people were peddling their goods on the heels of that tragedy like we've never seen before. And that's where commerce and industry came in and said, "We need our factory farms protected from these animal rights terrorists." And everybody was throwing the terrorist a word out and hoping that it would stick. And of course, the media doesn't help. So you've got... You know, I'll not name names. There are plenty of...

• 1:31:40Rich Roll?

  Come on, no one's listening.

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  They are. You know, plenty of people out there who love to do that. It's funny because Gone Girl is a very popular book and movie that's out, right? And so it kind of addresses that, like, when the media will take a picture and they'll decide that because of this, because of the way someone looks in this... You know, Ben, I won't give away, but it's in the trailer that you see him smiling in front of a picture of his missing wife. And so they said, "He killed her. He killed her. Look at this look on his face." And that's the kind of society we're living in right now. And post-September 11...

• 1:32:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the story becomes about the perpetrator and not the issue. There's a movie called Kill the Messenger out, and it's the same narrative, right? So when the messenger is bringing up a story that is controversial, or that the vested interests don't want to get out there, then they marginalize the messenger.

• 1:32:32Speaker 01

  That's right. And he killed himself.

• 1:32:34Rich Roll?

  Right, that journalist did. That's right.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:38Rich Roll?

  Make the story about the individual and take the spotlight off of what the real issue is.

• 1:32:43Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 1:32:44Rich Roll?

  And so I guess my question to you, and you've been in that situation.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:32:48Rich Roll?

  You know, I saw you on The Daily Show. You know, you... You know what I mean? Like, you go on Bill O'Reilly. I mean, you have balls of steel to do that, because of course you know, when you sign up for that and you're going to go on that, that you're going to take the heat, right?

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:02Rich Roll?

  And they're going to try to make it about you, and they're going to try to make you look foolish, or try to make fun of you. So what is the mindset when you're like, "All right, I'm going to sit down with Wyatt Sinak. I know what's going to... I know, I don't know what he's going to do, but he's going to do something." You know, like, how do you... First of all, what is the decision to say, "Okay, I'm going to do this," knowing that that's probably what's going to happen? And how do you kind of navigate that and survive it, really?

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it's funny, because too...

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  When Fox News first came around and then there was, you know, September 11th happened, I did one of those shows and they, and someone compared me to Osama bin Laden just for trying to promote veganism. And so they do love to throw that stuff around. And so, you know, fast forwarding many years to the Daily Show episode that you were talking about, it had to do with our 13th Amendment case against SeaWorld, saying that the 13th Amendment can and should apply to animals. And in this case, these animals were taken from their families in the ocean and enslaved at SeaWorld. And it was a, it was a case beautifully written that got a lot of legal kudos. The judge took it very seriously, but it pissed off

• 1:34:17Speaker 01

  Wyatt at the Daily Show. And it was really funny because he acted like a complete jerk. And, but he was very proud of himself. You know, what you don't know is that interview was like, you know, the interesting two minutes of it. He kept me in that room for three hours.

• 1:34:32Rich Roll?

  Well, you know, when they do, the way they do it is, is, you know, he asks the question, and then they cut to you.

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  Saying something else.

• 1:34:40Rich Roll?

  Or just staring blankly.

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:34:42Rich Roll?

  Because it's probably when you're getting ready to do the interview.

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:34:45Rich Roll?

  It's taken out of the timeline. So it's edited specifically to make you look foolish.

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:34:50Rich Roll?

  Way more so than, you know, if they just played the raw footage.

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  That's right. And, you know, I've done the Daily Show numerous times and I get the joke, right? I get that, you know, and we're all for it. We have a huge sense of humor at PETA and I've been the butt of jokes for the Colbert Report, for whatever, and I'm down with that. But in this case, he was so awful and he was so personally offended and angry about PETA's work that he was shaking. He was holding a picture of me and my dog from a triathlon I'd done, actually. And he was literally shaking. By the end of that interview, the people in the room whispered to me, as I said, "Thank you" to everybody, that They couldn't believe how he behaved and that I really kept my cool. And the whole time, and answered your question, it's like, how do you do it?

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  The whole time for me is like, I'm not talking to Wyatt. I'm talking to everybody who's watching this. And if I lose my cool, or if I look like an idiot, and they'll still make me look like an idiot, because that's their goal on The Daily Show, which I love The Daily Show, by the way. And I'm glad he's off it. But...

• 1:35:51Rich Roll?

  But that's the one thing you always do. Like, in all the interviews that I've seen you in, you never get rattled. Like, you know, you're like, you're always on an even keel. And you answer the question, and they're poking you, hoping to get a reaction out of you. And you just never bite.

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's not about me is the thing. You know what I mean? Like, I can sit there, you can call me anything. I don't care. I really don't care what you say to me. It's not about me. It's about the issue we're talking about. And I have that one opportunity, whatever, however long that is, to maybe change someone's mind about something. If I let my feathers get ruffled, then I lose that opportunity. And so...

• 1:36:26Rich Roll?

  And it's the controversial work that the organization does that gets the attention that allows you to go on these shows and speak to massive amounts of people, right?

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, we can't do these controversial things and then act so surprised that people are, you know, taking us to task for it, you know?

• 1:36:43Rich Roll?

  And, and, listen, when you go on O'Reilly, I mean, that's just theater, anyway. Like, you can't, of course, you can't take personally anything that guy is saying to you. It's just, it's a whole orchestrated, you know, thing.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, with everything they do. Yeah, it's all, it's, it's a show. You know, you watch, oh, it's so funny, I've done so many Fox shows, and I did this thing with Meghan, what's her name? I can't remember her last name, the blonde who gets so hysterical about anything liberal.

• 1:37:08Rich Roll?

  Aren't they all like that?

• 1:37:09Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And she was so angry that we had, we were promoting, we did this thing called a love-in, where a couple would sit on a city street on a mattress and make out, and said vegans last longer. And it was total, it was, it was sexy, and it was funny and everything, and we did it...

• 1:37:24Rich Roll?

  It's like tongue-in-cheek.

• 1:37:25Speaker 01

  Totally tongue-in-cheek, and it was very funny, it was very popular, and we did it with straight couples, and we did it with gay couples. But she was incensed that we did it with lesbians. And she, she couldn't, and, I mean, her homophobia just came through like you wouldn't believe, and she couldn't get over it. What if children are walking down the street? And I'm like... Children get the gay thing. I mean, you know, women love women, men love men, men love whatever. I mean, it's like, we're living in a new world, Meghan. She went so nuts over it. That the Huffington posted an entire article on her interview with me because she was just like, she lost it, you know, and it is, but it is just this big showy thing. Unfortunately, though, people watching some of those shows, they like, take that as hard news.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  You know, you're better off watching Jon Stewart if you want to know what's really going on in the world than some of these news programs. Um, and it's too bad because when I, you know, back in the day when I started at PETA, there was hard news. Like, you, you could, we would do an undercover investigation, we would send out a news release and we would sit down, and there are still some really great journalists out there, goodness knows. Like, we are in the press every day and they're just good people fighting for that, you know, um, that way of reporting. But it, it, it's a, it's definitely a different world.

• 1:38:38Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. And, you know, it's, you put stuff out there that attracts the controversy too, like the video. What was the one, it was the guy from Saturday Night Live and, uh, you know, boyfriend went vegan.

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin Nealon.

• 1:38:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Kevin Nealon, which I thought was hilarious.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:54Rich Roll?

  You know, but you, I'm sure you got a lot of flack for that as well.

• 1:38:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that was also interesting because it was one, we released it on, um, Valentine's Day. And, um, if you go to our website, you can see it and it, it, it just shows, uh, a woman who has had, um, such, uh, what would you say? I mean, such forceful, consensual sex that she is just, uh, she's wearing a neck brace, right? And so, um, she's gone to the store.

• 1:39:23Rich Roll?

  Her boyfriend went vegan and now he's so virulent.

• 1:39:26Speaker 01

  Yes, right. So she's got, you see her, it starts when she's coming back from the store because she wants to feed him more veggies. I will tell you, I am not naive and I've done a lot of fun and strange things in my career at PETA. The controversy over that spot really took, really surprised me because the spot is so obviously, she's feeding him more veggies. She's enjoying this relationship she has with this guy and it's so tongue in cheek. And, you know, it's, um, anyway, so that someone got angry about it and had they not, I'm not sure we would have gotten the millions of views on the ad. And every ad we put out that's controversial like that one. Ended up being, we put our undercover investigation footage at the end and we offer

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  people our free vegetarian starter kit to either order or download from our website. And so, we're able to track the success of these campaigns like never before. They're not just watching boyfriend went vegan, they're then going and watching the slaughterhouse footage and the factory farming footage and then they're ordering the vegan starter kit. So, you come to our website to see an ad like that, it's kind of not for free, you end up having to see the kind of grisly stuff and that's where the changes are made. So, you know, we're willing to push an envelope here or there.

• 1:40:37Rich Roll?

  And let's talk about this sort of partnership that you guys have formed with so many celebrities. I mean, celebrities have been like an integral part of your messaging from way back, right? And, you know, how that kind of came to be and, you know, what that serves in the sort of, you know, philosophy of PETA.

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  Well, you know, we are a really kind of celebrity crazed society, you know, for better or for worse, you know, celebrities themselves will tell you it's for, you know, for worse. But, um, so, I think as an organization, again, we're, we're pretty strategic and we've always noticed that if, if, if, if it's a celebrity and if the message is coming from a celebrity, more people are going to sit up and pay attention than if it's me. And so, we latched on to that from a long, long time ago. That was, you know, that was really Dan Matthews and Ingrid years ago that said, "We've really got to get some famous faces to help advocate."

• 1:41:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I think it, it grew out of Dan getting frustrated that he would go to these media outlets and they stopped wanting to run the serious journalistic, you know, exposing pieces that he was bringing to them because their ratings were plummeting. And so, he realized he had to find a new way to get access to broadcast media and, and it was through sort of doing pieces around celebrities that would open those doors that needed to be open.

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  That's right, that's exactly right and it works very, very well. So, when Angelica Huston is narrating a video about The use and abuse of great apes in the entertainment industry for television and movies, people are sitting up and paying attention because she is a goddess and, you know, she is Hollywood royalty and she won't work with chimpanzees and, and other great apes, you know, so we, we choose carefully, you know, and, and the, in the folks that, it, it makes sense that that message would come from her. It makes sense that Edie Falco speaks out against the circus. She's a mom and she was, you know, approached that from a mother's perspective. And then we've got so many people on the fashion front who are fashion forward. Jessica Chastain won't wear, won't wear fur. She won't wear leather.

• 1:42:42Speaker 01

  Anne Hathaway, Natalie Portman, all of these, you know, beautiful, Charlize Theron did an anti fur ad for us because that's the world that they're looking at. Joaquin Phoenix has done numerous things for us. The Phoenix family has supported us since we were founded, you know, and, and he's such a lovely person. And so, I mean, I could go on and on. There's just so many, so many wonderful people and then athletes like you. I mean, you know, you are one of the greatest studs in the athletic world. No, and I know this firsthand because I've paid such close attention to what you've done, but you talking about doing five Ironman races in, you know, a week on a vegan diet, that's something people are tuning into, you know?

• 1:43:26Speaker 01

  That's stressing someone's body like really, I'm hard pressed to think of, you know, a way to do it where you stress your body more than that and you're doing it with plants. And, and that's telling the world out there that if all you really have to do is get up in the morning and go to work and come home and have dinner with your family, that's not even stressing you out. And this is, you know, this is, this is the best way to eat. I mean, it's just having a tremendous effect, so. Yeah, it's worked well for us.

• 1:43:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's cool. I mean, I've been watching the kind of Ink, uh, Ink Not Mink campaign and all the cool posters that you've done with that. And you've gotten a lot of athletes on board with that, a lot of, you know, professional football players and basketball players and stuff like that, which is pretty cool.

• 1:44:10Speaker 01

  And more coming, yeah.

• 1:44:11Rich Roll?

  And you're seeing, uh, at least I'm seeing, you know, maybe it's through my, you know, selective filter, but it seems to me that the fashion industry is, is, is changing slowly.

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:23Rich Roll?

  And you have, you know, young, new designers like Joshua Katcher, who are, you know, doing all cruelty free.

• 1:44:29Speaker 01

  Oh, I love him.

• 1:44:30Rich Roll?

  And, you know, even, uh, sort of veterans of the business like John Bartlett, who, you know, had his epiphany and suddenly decided he's, everything that he does is going to be cruelty free. And he's incredibly vocal and outspoken and strident in his advocacy. And, you know, when somebody like John, who's like a lion of the business, you know, is heralded for many, many years, is, is taking such an unequivocal stand on this, I mean, there's an air of legitimacy that comes with that.

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:44:59Rich Roll?

  And because he has so much experience and success in that business. So, you know, what is the ripple effect of that?

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  Oh, it's, it's, it's tremendous. I mean, just this week, the New York Times did a story, um, we did an undercover investigation, um, in, I think it was 19 wool grower sheds in Australia. Australia is the largest exporter of, um, mules to wool, uh, in the world. And they, they also produce, uh, regular wool. And then we also did, um, at the same time did investigations and the wool industry in this country. And it's some of the worst stuff I've ever seen. I mean, these poor sheep who are just the most gentle animals you could ever imagine. And they're being punched in the face, they're being stood on, they're being hit with, uh, sheep, you know, the shears. They're being sheared so

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  roughly that their, their entire bodies are cut up and then they're being stitched up without any anesthesia. Um, a sheep shearer in, in, uh, Colorado broke the neck of a sheep and then threw him down a chute. I mean, it's one thing after another. And it was in every shed. It was in every shed that we found. So, you know, we exposed that. And, um, and that's making people realize that, yeah, I mean, I should, I shouldn't wear wool. And, um,

• 1:46:17Speaker 01

  In, in the New York Times this week, the, there was a spokesperson from the New Zealand wool industry, which is a huge exporter as well, who said, there's just, there are just too many alternatives to wool. I mean, this is an industry that's going away because people just, they don't, they don't want the cruelty. They can get it cheaper another way when you use natural fibers. And so we're seeing a huge change. Big, big designers. I mean, you know, Stella McCartney, Betsy Johnson, Vivian Westwood, Ralph Lauren, to varying degrees. You know, some of them are still using skins and, and some of them are still using wool. None of those guys are using fur. So, yeah, and John Bartlett, I mean, you know, he's, he's just such a lovely person. So, yeah, it's everywhere. And it's, and it's not just the designers. I mean, designers are great because they do help set trends,

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  but most people aren't buying that kind of stuff. They're going to the Gap and they're, which Gap will not sell Angora wool and they will not sell fur.

• 1:47:11Rich Roll?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they're going to H and M and they're going to Forever 21 and they're going to J. Crew and they're going to a number of these places. You know, we still have, you know, issues with, with a lot of these companies that we're working on, but, but there's a huge movement afoot, you know, because people are demanding cruelty-free products and wanting to live a vegan lifestyle.

• 1:47:32Rich Roll?

  What about the cosmetic business?

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:34Rich Roll?

  Like, I don't, you know, that's something, I don't know anything about that.

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:37Rich Roll?

  But I know that they do animal testing to some extent on these products. I mean, what is the landscape there?

• 1:47:42Speaker 01

  That's changing too. I mean, there's still a lot of work to be done. There are still companies that are testing their products on animals. It's not required by law for cosmetics, but they're still, you know, still doing it. But it is very easy to buy cruelty-free cosmetics, you know. Obsessive compulsive is a very, very popular line. For example, Aveda is cruelty-free. And we maintain a list on our website. So it's, you know, Urban Decay, again, is another company. So there's definitely cha-, you know, that's been a hugely successful campaign, but it's not over, you know. So we're still urging people to make sure that they check the list on, on, on, for cosmetics that are tested on animals because it is still happening.

• 1:48:22Rich Roll?

  What are some things that, you know, people commonly do without thinking about it that they could easily make a switch or adjust that they might not be even just aware of having like sort of negative repercussions on?

• 1:48:36Speaker 01

  I think, um...

• 1:48:37Rich Roll?

  Animal welfare.

• 1:48:40Rich Roll?

  Other than the obvious, like I'm trying to think like, what am I doing that I don't even know, you know, could be that I'm not even really consciously choosing where I could make a better choice.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, you know, eggs and dairy are an interesting thing because they're ingredients in a lot of things, you know, and I think people without thinking, they think, you don't kill the chicken for the eggs, for her eggs, and you don't kill a dairy cow for her milk, but you do, it's just, it's the baby that's getting killed, at fourteen weeks old, the baby cow, at fourteen weeks old, because to get the milk from a dairy cow that we put in a carton and sell at the store, you'd have to take it away from the baby. I mean, mother cows give milk for the same reasons human mothers, and that's for their babies. So babies are a byproduct of the dairy industry, and they die, and

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  eventually, when dairy cows, quote unquote, dry up, they're also killed. And so I think that people, well-intentioned people who go vegetarian, but don't go vegan, think, well, they don't kill the animals for that. So that's kind of an unintentional thing. Trying to think of what else, you know, people do, I mean.

• 1:49:58Rich Roll?

  I think, you know, kind of maybe what I'm getting at is that, look, we all live in the world, right? And, you know, you get a car, there's probably, you know, even if you get the cloth seats, there's probably leather somewhere, and, you know, like, we're sort of purchasing things without even being aware of them, and in many cases, maybe there aren't even really viable alternatives. And, you know, I'm always trying to raise my awareness level, and, you know, I don't know in all cases, and I'm not perfect, but, you know, I'm trying to do better.

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  But it isn't perfection, it's just being aware, you know, if you just be aware and do your best, that's what we tell people. There are obvious cruelties, the dairy industry, the egg industry, the meat industry, obvious cruelty, get rid of it, you know, whatever. The rest of it, the car you buy when you're walking down the street, the things that you do, they're just, they're just, you know, just be open to it, is all, you know, I mean, some dog owners, for example, do things.

• 1:50:56Speaker 01

  They're unaware of, like, you know, choke chains. Sometimes, you know, dog trainers are some of the worst enemies of dogs that exist.

• 1:51:02Rich Roll?

  What about dog food? And cat food?

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's another thing. That's, that's people unintentionally, there are great vegan dog foods now, you know, and I cook, I cooked for my dog. But that's an unintentional thing. But again, that's like, you know, do your best. Do, do the best you can. Learn everything you can and then make an informed decision. And typically, when you ask people to do that, it's very easy to do. Like you said, you know, just do a quick Google search and you can learn everything you need to learn. Or come to PETA. Go to our website and, you know, check things out or write to us. But it really does come down to just doing the best you can. You know, the next time you go to buy a winter coat, look for something that doesn't have down in it. If you have a down coat right now and you're not in the market for something else, we're

• 1:51:49Speaker 01

  not telling you you should burn that down coat.

• 1:51:53Speaker 01

  You know, just don't buy another one.

• 1:51:54Rich Roll?

  Right. This is something interesting that occurred when you came to visit our house because we had, I think we had a couch with some leather on it and we had like a rug that was made out of an animal skin and there were things that we had just owned forever.

• 1:52:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:09Rich Roll?

  And, you know, Julie and I were like, should we hide it? You know, what are we gonna, like, we can't like have this here when Lisa comes, like, but, but, you know, we didn't want to be disingenuous either. And then we had a conversation after the interview where I was like, what is the, you know, I'm curious, like, what is the ethical response? Like, if you already own this product, what is the best thing? What is the most conscious thing to do? Is it to continue to use it until it's no longer useful because you already, the animal's already dead and you own it? Is it to give it away? Is it to destroy it? Like, you know, what is, what is the answer?

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you have to just go with what your heart tells you. And, you know, I'll tell you honestly, a lot of people will just say, well, I'm not going to give it away because I've had it and everything. But then you find that a lot of people just don't even like looking at it anymore and they end up getting rid of it on their own. There are certain things I would recommend that people not wear again. Like, if you have just learned about fur and you have a fur coat, don't, don't wear it. Don't wear it because it perpetuates the idea and might encourage other people to buy that kind of thing. Because that's out on the street. That's going into a restaurant. What, your couch at home, you know, you can, you can always, you have people over and you say, I only have a leather couch because I didn't know better. But if you're out on this, you know, you're out on the street in fur, that's a completely different thing, or a leather coat, I would say donate those items.

• 1:53:26Speaker 01

  And so it just, but really just ask yourself those questions. You know, when I went vegan, I had, I had some leather shoes and stuff, and I was that person that just, I wore what I had, I couldn't afford to replace everything. But then, I really actually couldn't stomach wearing it anymore either. So I just kind of

• 1:53:43Rich Roll?

  Lots of shift in consciousness that, that takes place, you know? And I think that, it's, I think it's important for people to understand, you know, it would be, it's easy to kind of look at, at you and PETA and this, this sort of lifestyle that you promote, and at times do in a very kind of hardline fashion, and for people to say, "Well, I can't, it's, it's too hard, it's too, you know, I can't live to that standard." Right? And that's really not, you know, that's a perception maybe, but it's not an accurate perception.

• 1:54:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't ask yourself where it all ends, just ask yourself where it starts for you. Like, what's the thing that you can do? What's the one animal that you want to give up eating? And then consider in 30 days, you know, giving up another, or go vegan for 30 days, try it. And they say that it takes like, what, three weeks to get used to something new? Whatever, but don't worry about how far you'll go. Just worry about where you're gonna start. And, and think about it, that's all. I mean, just think about those animals. For me, it's just, you know, 22 years having been here, I still, you know, there was a terrible cruelty case down the, down the street from, not far from here. And it just breaks my heart as much today as it did when I started this whole thing, when you know that someone's been cruel and killed, you know, a cat or a dog, or whatever

• 1:54:59Speaker 01

  it is. And just, and it's not a fun thing to think of, and I don't blame people for trying to put it out of their minds, you know? Because it's, it's the worst. But just give them that. If they're gonna go through it, the least we can do is just, just, just think about it for, or, or look at the footage and understand it. It's, it's painful, but it's not quite the pain that they're going through. And, and And then realize they're just like easy little things that you can do. Not all at once, but again, just don't worry about, oh, my God, am I gonna have to change my entire life? Okay, well, then I guess I'll do nothing.

• 1:55:32Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:55:32Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:55:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because that just leads to paralysis.

• 1:55:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:35Rich Roll?

  It's too difficult, it's too overwhelming, there's too many decisions to be made, like, I can't deal with it.

• 1:55:39Speaker 01

  That's right, that's right. And that's true with anything. It's kind of like when people have to lose 300 pounds. I, oh, my God, I have to lose 300 pounds and I'm never gonna start. You know, it's just like, you know what? Just concentrate on being healthier and just start somewhere.

• 1:55:51Rich Roll?

  What are you doing? Be in the present. What are you doing right now? What's the next decision that, that you need to make? What's the next thing you have to buy? What's the next thing you need to eat?

• 1:55:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:00Rich Roll?

  And, and what do you want that to stand for? Because I think if PETA stands for anything, it stands for giving the power to the people and really believing that the people do have a voice, you know, individually and collectively. And if you really get real with yourself about, you know, what you, you know, what you really stand for.

• 1:56:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:21Rich Roll?

  And what you support and don't support and back it up with action.

• 1:56:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then think about it if you're a parent, like, what kind, that just sets such a beautiful example for your kids. I mean, you and Julie do it every day. It's like you, you, you, you want your kids to look at you and think, wow, my dad was really kick ass, like, he stood for something and he lived a really kind life. And you wanna be an example like that, not just for your own kids. I don't have children, but I know a lot of them and, and I don't preach to them. You just kind of, you know, do, do your thing. I mean, it's funny because you were talking about living in the moment. We should all really be more like our dogs because they're like right there and they're living in the moment and there's nothing premeditated and they're just like, you know?

• 1:57:03Rich Roll?

  No agenda.

• 1:57:03Speaker 01

  No agenda.

• 1:57:04Rich Roll?

  Well, other than being loved and, and getting some food, maybe.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Right, right, right, right. But that's just kind of in, in the moment. Just think about what you can do right now to just cause the least amount of suffering. And it's like the easiest thing in the world to do. And then when you pass that on to your kids and you say, I'm not eating that because... To end up there, that animal went through a lot of pain. And so, I don't want to be a part of that.

• 1:57:25Rich Roll?

  It's tricky with men, though. You know, for a lot of people, for a lot of men, it's challenging their notion of masculinity and what it means to be a man. Right? And so, you know, eating meat, for better or worse, has sort of become, you know, a cultural touchstone of what it means to be manly, you know, as, as sort of ridiculous and insane as that is.

• 1:57:47Rich Roll?

  It is challenging to try to unravel that knot, I think.

• 1:57:50Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 1:57:52Rich Roll?

  Because, a lot of men just think, "Well, if I, if I take this stand, or, or I become that guy, then I become a wimp, or, you know, how are my fellow males gonna perceive me?" And, you know, it's really, it's, it's a, it's a social perspective that I think we need to begin to shift, because it's bullshit.

• 1:58:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. And it, it is changing, though, because you look at all these great MMA fighters, and you, you know, a number of athletes, you know, such as yourself, who are vegan, and it's just, it's just, I, I just would say to the men out there who think that it's macho to eat meat, that it's just, it's embarrassing. I mean, there's nothing less attractive than a man who just thinks, "Well, I'm, I've gotta be a man, so I, I have to show that I don't care." Or, just the obvious, "I need to..." It's just, it's just so...

• 1:58:41Rich Roll?

  Well, well, preying and oppressing the weak is not, is not really very manly.

• 1:58:45Speaker 01

  No, it's very cowardly.

• 1:58:47Rich Roll?

  It's almost cowardly.

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:48Rich Roll?

  You know, and I always say this, but like, you look at the great leaders, you know, throughout the millennia, and they were the ones that understood compassion. You know, a balance of, of force and power, counterbalanced against compassion when appropriate, and always sort of caring for the weak and the, and the underserved. Those are the great leaders of, of humanity. Right? And so, I think it's incumbent upon males, men, to really ponder that.

• 1:59:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and women love compassionate men. I mean, just look at how exciting, I mean, look how many views, you know, YouTube videos of like, the firefighter saving the kitten. I mean, it's just like, that is just, that's what's desired, is the guy who is just all things manly and kind.

• 1:59:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:59:34Speaker 01

  Which is really...

• 1:59:35Rich Roll?

  You guys did a recent video with Timothy Sheaf, right? The freerunner in London?

• 1:59:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:59:43Rich Roll?

  It was probably your UK office that did it.

• 1:59:45Speaker 01

  Yes, it was.

• 1:59:46Rich Roll?

  Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had him on the podcast. He's amazing.

• 1:59:48Speaker 01

  Oh, nice, nice.

• 1:59:49Rich Roll?

  He's super cool. But he's, you know, he's amazing because he's so brilliantly talented at what he does. But he's also incredibly passionate and articulate about this cause.

• 2:00:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:00Rich Roll?

  In a kind of in an unexpected, beautiful way.

• 2:00:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:03Rich Roll?

  And he's very committed to, you know, changing people's, you know, awareness when it comes to these kinds of things. It's cool to watch. You know, he's young and, and, you know, he's dialed in too. And Britain, this guy knows everybody and, you know, he has a voice and he has a presence. And to watch him do what he does, it's impossible. I mean, like, look, if that, you know, if he can do that, you know, and look the way he does and, and, and say the things that he says, I mean, you know, that's heroic.

• 2:00:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really cool too, because he does what he does and then, oh, by the way, he's vegan. Do you know what I mean? I mean, it means a lot to him, but he, people are looking at him not because he's a vegan, but because he's such a spectacular athlete, you know? And it's, it's really fun to see. And we're seeing it more and more, you know? So, yeah, good things ahead.

• 2:00:49Rich Roll?

  Exciting times.

• 2:00:50Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:00:51Rich Roll?

  Well, I think that's a good place to wrap it up.

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  All right. Well, thank you.

• 2:00:54Rich Roll?

  That was cool.

• 2:00:55Speaker 01

  This was fun. That went by way too fast.

• 2:00:56Rich Roll?

  It was good, right?

• 2:00:57Speaker 01

  You have to have me back.

• 2:00:58Rich Roll?

  How do you feel? Did we do it?

• 2:00:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great.

• 2:01:01Rich Roll?

  Excellent. Well, if you're out there listening and you're inspired to broaden your horizons and learn more, the best place to do that is to go to peta.org, right?

• 2:01:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:01:15Rich Roll?

  And if you want to connect with Lisa more intimately online, at least, the best place to do that is, you have Face, you're on Facebook, right?

• 2:01:24Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 2:01:25Rich Roll?

  Lisa.lang.lange. I always say Lang, it's Lange.

• 2:01:29Speaker 01

  Everybody does. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, so I'm there. I'm not on Twitter. I'm not, yeah.

• 2:01:34Rich Roll?

  Why are you not on Twitter?

• 2:01:35Speaker 01

  I don't, I'm like, I'm at my computer. Practically 24/7 and I just think, oh, I just can't.

• 2:01:40Rich Roll?

  It's another thing.

• 2:01:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just another thing.

• 2:01:41Rich Roll?

  What about Instagram?

• 2:01:43Speaker 01

  I am on Instagram.

• 2:01:45Rich Roll?

  Do you know your avatar?

• 2:01:46Speaker 01

  I, I, oh my god.

• 2:01:48Rich Roll?

  You don't?

• 2:01:48Speaker 01

  I just got back on, I was on, I think it's Lisa M. Lange. Just...

• 2:01:53Rich Roll?

  You don't even know?

• 2:01:54Speaker 01

  No, I know.

• 2:01:54Rich Roll?

  Well, I'll figure it out, I'll put it in the show notes.

• 2:01:56Speaker 01

  Okay, alright, good.

• 2:01:57Rich Roll?

  And, uh, well, PETA on Twitter is just @PETA.

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're, we're, we're very active on Twitter.

• 2:02:04Rich Roll?

  Is there anything going on on the website right now that would be interesting or new to direct people's attention?

• 2:02:09Speaker 01

  Oh, well, you know, the SeaWorld stuff is, is very prominent on our website right now because of the Virgin America announcement, which was great, and, um, I mean, it was just on there today, the NIH stuff I talked about early, earlier, the experiments there, it's just, and then the India thing as well, as well, and then, of course, we're coming up on the holidays, and so we go a little crazy with the holidays with really great recipes and stuff for people. I use them. I love cooking at the holidays, I mean, believe it or not, Thanksgiving's my favorite holiday because we make this massively yummy vegan feast, and last year I made pumpkin pie, a pecan pie, we made this, the Spork Sisters, have you, do you have their cookbook?

• 2:02:47Rich Roll?

  No, I don't.

• 2:02:47Speaker 01

  It's amazing.

• 2:02:48Rich Roll?

  What's it called?

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  The, well, the book itself, but there's the Spork Sisters, and they're fantastic, and so I cook out of their cookbook, Chloe Coscarelli's one of my, she's just the best, Robin Roberts and all these people, so I pull from different cookbooks, and then we have all this stuff up on our website, how to make vegan gravy and, you know, substitute earth balance for butter and mashed potatoes and all that stuff, so that's all coming up.

• 2:03:11Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 2:03:11Speaker 01

  So look out for it.

• 2:03:13Rich Roll?

  Alright, good stuff.

• 2:03:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:14Rich Roll?

  Alright, well, thanks, Lisa.

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you.

• 2:03:17Rich Roll?

  Keep doing what you do.

• 2:03:18Speaker 01

  Always, you too.

• 2:03:19Rich Roll?

  It's very inspirational.

• 2:03:20Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you, back at you.

• 2:03:21Rich Roll?

  Alright, well, thanks again. Peace.

• 2:03:33Rich Roll?

  All right, you guys, that's it. We did it. That's this week's show. I hope you enjoyed. Lisa, I hope I've helped broaden your perspective. I hope I've given you something to really non. And at a minimum, I hope I have helped create greater awareness and consciousness about the implications of our consumer choices at the market and beyond. So, if you haven't already, please give us a review on iTunes. We're approaching 1,000 reviews. It would be great to hit that. So do me a solid. Let's make it happen. Come on, you guys. Stop being lazy. It takes two minutes. Throw me a review. You can do it. If you want to stay current with all things plant-powered, subscribe to my newsletter at richroll.com. I will not spam you. I'm just going to send you a weekly

• 2:04:14Rich Roll?

  podcast update, some helpful information, and the occasional deal on cool stuff. That's it. And of course, go to richroll.com for all your plant-powered needs, and go to mindbodygreen.com to check out my online courses. If you want to support the show, you want to be behind the plant-power mission, just tell a friend about the show. Use the Amazon banner at richroll.com, and you can donate to the show. There's buttons on the site. You can subscribe weekly, monthly, one-time, any dollar amount you like. Thank you so much to everybody who's done that. And please, keep Instagramming. I love it. I love when you share how, when, why you're enjoying the show. Just don't forget to tag me @richroll there. All right, let's close it down with this week's assignment. I think, kind of, between the lines, this

• 2:04:58Rich Roll?

  week's conversation is really about connections. It's about how everything, in certain respects, is connected. So, the next time you go to the store, or the market, and you're about to buy a product, any product, food product or otherwise, it can be a consumer product of any kind, I want you to sort of hold it in your hand, look at it, and consider what that product is connected to. What does it stand for? What was the process involved in creating it? How, when, where? How does purchasing it create a trickle-down effect on other aspects of our world? Does it truly represent what you want? Does purchasing it accurately reflect your core values? And this is not an easy thing. It's a complex world out there.

• 2:05:43Rich Roll?

  Everything is connected to everything. I know that when you buy an iPhone, for example, well, what does that mean? There are people in China that are working on that. Where do these minerals come from that find their way into our phones? And what does that mean about what we stand for? It's not easy. It's tricky. And it seems like everything is compromised. So I'm not saying that this is a simple task. And I'm not even asking you to necessarily change your behavior. I'm just asking you to begin to develop a greater level of consciousness and awareness that our consumer actions do indeed have ramifications, that there is more at play. And together, maybe we might just be able to raise the vibration.

• 2:06:28Rich Roll?

  All right. Enjoy your week, people, and I'll see you next Monday. Peace. Plants.