Chloe Malle

Ina talks to Vogue’s Chloe Malle about taking over the top job from Anna Wintour and her journey getting there. Chloe shares what she thinks the difference is between fashion and style, the best food to serve at a party, and the truth about the famous Vogue closet. Beloved hostess Ina Garten welcomes listeners into her New York City apartment for Happy Hour with Ina Garten. Every Wednesday, she sits down with people she’d like to meet from the worlds of culture, food, art, sports, and entertainment for the kinds of conversations you would love to overhear at a great dinner party. Warm, funny, personal, and often unexpected, Happy Hour mixes in-depth conversation with stories, recipes, and, of course, cocktails. Pull up a chair, pour yourself a drink, and join the conversation. SUBSCRIBE ► Subscribe to Happy Hour with Ina Garten for new episodes every Wednesday: https://www.youtube.com/@HappyHourwithIna?sub_confirmation=1 FOLLOW THE SHOW ► Happy Hour on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@HappyHourwithIna?sub_confirmation=1 ► Happy Hour on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/happyhourwithina ► Happy Hour on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@happyhourwithina ► Happy Hour on Substack: https://happyhourwithinagarten.substack.com/welcome ► Happy Hour on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61589319634655 Host: Ina Garten Executive Producers: Jenna Weiss-Berman, Ali Jaffe Ramis, and Deborah Davis Contributing Producer: Kate Tyler Producer: Jules Natt Video Editor: Tim Fernandez Associate Producer: Mica Pollan Bahn Sound Recording: Mike Larini Audio Mixing: Eleanor Osborne Camera Operators: Liam Lee and Chris Violette Music by Pink Martini Special Thanks to Cinematographer Dion Beebe Happy Hour with Ina is a Vox Media podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Ina Garten?

  I'm Ina Garten and this is Happy Hour. Today, I'm sitting down with Chloé Malle.

• 0:08Ina Garten?

  Chloé is the head of editorial content at Vogue, and she co-hosts Vogue's weekly fashion and culture podcast, The Run Through.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  It's 7:00 a.m. and there's signs of you everywhere.

• 0:22Ina Garten?

  She's been in her new role for just over a year now, and she has a lot to say about her journey getting there.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  I learned everything from that. It was really a real bustling newsroom.

• 0:42Ina Garten?

  Support for the show comes from Talbotz. You know me, I'm all about big impact without overcomplicating it. And I believe the best things in life are simple, effortless, and classic for a reason. That's why Talbotz is my daily uniform and why I'm wearing it right now. I used to go into my closet and look at everything, and I'd always wear the Talbotz shirt anyway. So I thought, how about get rid of everything else? Why chase trends when I can dress in timeless pieces that feel good and always look right? Discover the pieces you'll reach for again and again. Shop talbotz.com/ina today.

• 1:21Ina Garten?

  Chloé Malle, welcome to Happy Hour.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Cheers.

• 1:24Ina Garten?

  Cheers. I made an Americano because I understand it's the cool girl's drink.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  I'm so excited.

• 1:28Ina Garten?

  And since you're the cool girl.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. This is a thrill. It's also such a beautiful color.

• 1:34Ina Garten?

  So you and I have never met before, but I've met your mom.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Yes, and I feel, I'm sure, as happens to you with many people, I feel like I know you from being in your books and shows.

• 1:45Ina Garten?

  Thank you.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  So it's very, this is a big deal.

• 1:47Ina Garten?

  Thank you, thank you. I'm so happy you're here.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  And I have to say, all the young people at Vogue were very excited about this.

• 1:52Ina Garten?

  Really? Isn't that nice?

• 1:54Speaker 01

  They're huge fans.

• 1:55Ina Garten?

  Isn't that nice?

• 1:55Speaker 01

  So you are spanning many generations.

• 1:58Ina Garten?

  As are you, right?

• 2:00Speaker 01

  We dared to dream.

• 2:01Ina Garten?

  So you have the coolest job in America now. Imagine when you were in your twenties that that's what you'd be doing?

• 2:07Speaker 01

  I did not. In my twenties, I was writing about real estate for The New York Observer.

• 2:11Ina Garten?

  I know.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  So that was a different, it was a different beat, as they say.

• 2:15Ina Garten?

  And here you are. I mean, it's just, you've had many jobs at Vogue, right?

• 2:19Speaker 01

  I have.

• 2:20Ina Garten?

  You started as a journalist. Why am I imagining Andy Sachs showing up and...

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Others have made that comparison.

• 2:26Ina Garten?

  What was your first job at Vogue?

• 2:29Speaker 01

  My first job at Vogue was, I was still writing at The New York Observer and for The New York Times then, and through a few different friends, and absolutely because of people who I knew through growing up. It was very much, the door was open for me. And then I got an interview for a features editor at Vogue. It was called the social editor there at the time, but it had nothing to do with social media because...

• 2:53Ina Garten?

  Didn't exist.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  I'm an elder person in these halls. And I got the job editing the front of the book section, which means the beginning of the magazine. And it was the fun, frothy part. It was called the flash section. And it was it girls and weddings and parties. And then we'd do something on a chic woman who supports a cause we think, we deem worthy. And it was very of the time, but I had a really good time doing it. And I do think that it really helped hone an editorial instinct and was almost a microcosm of the magazine in that way. And that was really fun. And then...

• 3:33Ina Garten?

  And then what was after that? You had several jobs before, right?

• 3:35Speaker 01

  I took a few different, few things on. I also was editing the coffee table books at Vogue, which was really fun. Vogue houses, Vogue weddings, et cetera. And I was working on some of the larger features as well. And then we would also have, back in the day when print was king, special issues every year. So we would do a special issue around the Met Gala. Sometimes we would do a special issue of best dressed people. And that, I was put in charge of editing top to tail. And that was really fun for me and a way to get my hands dirty in terms of really editing a full product.

• 4:18Ina Garten?

  When you arrived, were you interested in fashion? Obviously, you were interested in journalism. Were you also interested in fashion, or did that come later?

• 4:24Speaker 01

  I was always interested in fashion. I've always been, to me, I'm interested in how fashion is a language and it communicates with people. And it's a language that you don't need to, that it's natural.

• 4:40Ina Garten?

  It's international.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  It's an international language. You don't have to speak it. You can learn a lot from someone just by seeing what they're wearing. And it's a really helpful shorthand. And I, especially, I remember arriving at college, and it was such a good way to be able to size people up. It was like, oh, they're interested in this, this, and this. Oh, they're like me. I can tell that's someone who is a kindred spirit. And it's amazing and it's very powerful. And I see that now with young people I know. I see them really finding themselves through fashion, through going to vintage stores, really honing what style is. And that's not just buying the most expensive thing that everyone else has.

• 5:23Ina Garten?

  Oh, no.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  It's about really pouring through racks and figuring out what is going to make something distinct to me. And I think people are valuing that more than ever.

• 5:32Ina Garten?

  Somebody once said to me, if you wear things with a logo on it, it's somebody's style, it's just not yours. Which is really true, right?

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:40Ina Garten?

  And I think that's the whole thing now. It's about individuality, is how can you express yourself so that it's not what everybody else is wearing? So what's the difference in fashion and style?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting that you're saying that about individual style because one of the overlines for a lot of us coming off of this fashion month that I just returned to, returned from, is personalizing things and soul. What is it that makes us human? What is it that distinguishes someone? And obviously, we're all thinking about AI slop and things being created that aren't real and that don't come from human hands. And you see that more and more with fashion. The real trends that resonated with people this fashion month were seeing things that felt handmade or hand-selected by someone.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  And really, it wasn't about one thing, one trend going down the runway over and over. It was a lot of, for example, hidden treasures, what I was calling the sort of talismans or magic charms that were hidden, draped under, layered under shirts that were, looked like a necklace you might find on your vacation at an open-air market in Greece. It was a single earring with mismatched with a short earring. It was these ways of showing, this is who I am and this is the soul that I'm projecting with what I'm wearing.

• 7:16Ina Garten?

  And has fashion always been, this is the look and you wear it or you don't? And now it's going towards much more people really interpreting it the way they want to?

• 7:26Speaker 01

  I think it...

• 7:27Ina Garten?

  Or does it swing back and forth?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  I think the pendulum swings.

• 7:29Ina Garten?

  Interesting.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  I think that, you know, there was this whole horribly named quiet luxury moment a few years ago where people were ushered into the beige mafia. And that, I feel like the pendulum has swung up in the other direction. And I do think that has to do with showing the hand behind something and the person behind something in a moment when so much is not made by hand.

• 7:59Ina Garten?

  Yeah. And even visual things are not made by hand anymore.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 8:04Ina Garten?

  So, so, so at some point, I assume you decided that you wanted to, that you knew Anna was moving to another position, maybe. You would say she's like chairman of the board. And this position was available. Did you know that you wanted to do this? Was it something that you thought about? Or did somebody ask you to? How did it, how did it come about that you made a proposal? Like you did a project as a proposal, which is a big deal. It's not like you just write a paper.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  No, it's a huge project. It took a lot of time.

• 8:31Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  And it's true that it, when Anna made the announcement that she was stepping back a bit, we were all in shock. It was, it was like someone had died in the office or no one really knew how to process it. And it didn't occur to me immediately. And then I spent some time with it and I thought... And actually, my husband said, if you aren't going for that, what are you doing? What, what, what's the goal? And I actually didn't totally agree with that because I loved the job I was doing. But I did then think... What happens if someone else gets this job? And I wonder, well, I should have just applied. Why not?

• 9:16Speaker 01

  And actually, I was just saying, I just interviewed Bowen Yang for our podcast. And he was saying that when he applied for SNL, it was so out of the realm of possibility that it gave him a freedom to just make an audition tape, that he just went for it. And it wasn't that I thought it was out of the realm of possibility, but I didn't have anything to lose because I loved the job I was in. And it was also exciting to be applying for this new job. But it allowed me to sort of have a freedom of brush, where I didn't feel like I had to paint within the lines. I really allowed myself to think, what would I want Vogue to be? What would I want to do? And I'm aware of the, because I've been at Vogue for a long time. I know the realities of that.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  You can dream big and then a variety of different realities whittle things down. But at least go big for the proposal and enjoy that part of it.

• 10:07Ina Garten?

  What was your concept of it? Was it to do a dramatically different thing at Vogue? Or was it to take what's really good at Vogue and move the football down the field?

• 10:17Speaker 01

  I think the latter. For me, and I said this then, and I will say it again. I think that some people in a different position would have been, or I've seen other people in other positions who have inherited a media brand or something else. And really, the proposal is, how are you going to completely tear this up and start again? Because that's what it needs. And that was...

• 10:43Ina Garten?

  Well, you didn't need to do that.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  And so Vogue is, thanks to Anna and many others, a paragon of quality and taste and has been extremely successful. And also something that I love and have read since I was a teenager and have always wanted to continue in the manner that it has been. I want that quality to remain and I want what I love about Vogue to stay. So for me, it's very much more about an evolution of what I love rather than a revolution of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

• 11:17Ina Garten?

  And... So how would you describe your style? Anna is very put together, very resolved. And I think you're very joyful and fun. Are you able to bring that to Vogue?

• 11:31Speaker 01

  I hope so. What I love most about Vogue is, I mean, I hadn't seen my colleagues for two and a half weeks and I was so happy to be in the office with everyone.

• 11:40Ina Garten?

  But to me, I just want to sit around a table with really smart people, fun people that I'm happy to see and we can create something. I feel the same way. It's really about the people.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  And we're in the office four to five days a week. I really love solving problems with people I work with and coming up with funny ideas and figuring out what to be doing.

• 12:01Ina Garten?

  What's a really bad idea for Vogue? Like, what's an idea somebody came up with? And maybe it's bad because it's against the advertisers? Or maybe it's bad because it was a crazy idea? But I love when people just throw in crazy ideas. And then you go, well, maybe we could do it this way.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Totally. And that's the thing is that I actually don't think there are bad ideas. I know that sounds cheesy, but I think that I have a lot of bad ideas.

• 12:25Ina Garten?

  I do too.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  But if I share a bad idea, I often see that it bounces. It's like skipping stones. It somehow gets the middle of the pond. And it's not from me, but it's from what we were just saying, being in a room full of people. I'm sure I had some bad Halloween idea and then it kind of morphed. I'm always trying to do something with pumpkins and everyone's like, go away.

• 12:50Ina Garten?

  As long as it's not a pumpkin latte.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  But now we're doing a fun accessories shoe with pumpkins. Yes, it's true.

• 12:57Ina Garten?

  I love pumpkin.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  I do too.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  So I don't think there are any bad ideas. But what, I mean, there's a lot of things that aren't right for Vogue.

• 13:07Ina Garten?

  So is there a closet at Vogue? Does it exist? Or is it just in Devil Wears Prada?

• 13:13Speaker 01

  It's much more exciting in Devil Wears Prada. But our closet is great. It's on a separate floor from our editorial team now. When I started at Vogue at Four Times Square, it was on the same floor as us. And there were racks of clothes everywhere.

• 13:27Ina Garten?

  There were racks of clothes in the offices?

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:29Ina Garten?

  Oh, my God. Yeah.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  So you'd be walking past and sort of, you know. Now that's not the case. All the clothes are on a different floor. It's a big closet with several fitting rooms. And it's shared between brands, which is also great.

• 13:43Ina Garten?

  Oh, interesting.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Vanity Fair, GQ, they're all working out of the same big, open space. And there's not, in the way that in Sex and the City or Devil Wears Prada, there's clothing that you can just borrow. That doesn't exist. But if, you know, for example, a few months ago, I was going straight from the office to a fancy event and I forgot a clutch. My colleague in the accessories department said, come with me. And she had a gold clutch in the closet that I could borrow. And so that's very nice. But I think to your point, Ina, about fashion versus style.

• 14:19Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  I see that again and again. The distinction becomes very clear when you see good style and you realize that that's not fashion. And you can see people in a head-to-toe designer look who have no style.

• 14:40Ina Garten?

  Have no style.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  And then you see someone, you know, who's our intern. And you see the way she's taken such joy in what she's putting together. And she's tied a shell necklace around her neck, but she also has cupped her jeans in the right way. It's taking pleasure and pride in the way you present yourself. There's a little girl in my son's first grade class. And she has more style than anyone I know.

• 15:10Ina Garten?

  What does she do?

• 15:11Speaker 01

  And her, I mean, her parents are academics and they dress, they're very stylish. But she is wearing, she puts it all together herself. She wears every color of the rainbow. She wears tutus and stripes and polka dots and amazing jewelry. She's totally accessorized and she looks...

• 15:29Ina Garten?

  She's in first grade?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, she looks awesome.

• 15:32Ina Garten?

  That's not great.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  And that is, to me, is true style. As someone who is clearly, this comes from this innate feeling.

• 15:39Ina Garten?

  There's nothing like confidence.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 15:43Ina Garten?

  Style is really about confidence. And if you wear what you're doing with confidence, it's really everything.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  That's true. What is in an Americano, Ina?

• 15:52Ina Garten?

  It is Campari, sweet vermouth and club soda. And I put a little orange in it. Do you like it?

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Delightful.

• 16:00Ina Garten?

  Because I always have Campari and soda. But the sweet vermouth just adds another layer of flavor.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  What's your cocktail of choice?

• 16:07Ina Garten?

  Campari and soda. Or in the winter, I like a nice bourbon sour. Which is so good.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  You know, I like a, I have to say, and maybe you can help with this. The term skinny margarita needs a rebrand. Because to me, that's actually before Bethenny Frankel or whoever started this. That's what I like about a margarita is, and I love sweet things and dessert, but I don't like it in a drink. And to me, an unsweet margarita is the dream.

• 16:40Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  And so I like, and I just can't bring myself to ask for a skinny margarita because it's too embarrassing. But I say a margarita without agave.

• 16:49Ina Garten?

  Well, that's it.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, like, that's my dream drink. It can be spicy. A spicy margarita, I'll do too. But what else? I'm very open-ended too. No dietary restrictions. What other, I mean, my mother's a huge Aperol Spritz person. It's like she just discovered this drink. And she also says it like with a German accent. She's like, can I have an Aperol Spritz? It's mortifying, but...

• 17:20Ina Garten?

  All mothers are mortifying.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. She just posts up at Gabriel's with her Aperol Spritz. Oh, but also she loves, my mother's three drinks, which I'm becoming more and more like my mother in my old age, is a Moscow Mule, which we both love, but it has to be in a copper mug. It's vodka, mint, lime, not actually mint. I guess we just add mint. But I think typically it's vodka, lime and ginger beer.

• 17:48Ina Garten?

  Oh, that sounds great.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  And to me, it has to be really sharp, good ginger beer. I'm a real ginger beer and maple syrup snob.

• 17:55Ina Garten?

  Because it has to really taste like ginger.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  It has to, it has to make your eyes kind of water. And so we're a big Moscow Mule person. And there was a whole thing a few years ago where they tried to rebrand as a key of mule, but that didn't really take off.

• 18:09Ina Garten?

  And what does the copper cup do?

• 18:12Speaker 01

  This is a great question. I actually would love to know the origin of the copper mug for the Moscow Mule. Because I also, don't you, no, you serve a julep in a silver cup. I don't know if, is there something about the metal that makes it taste different?

• 18:25Ina Garten?

  I have no idea. Because somebody gave me silver champagne glasses, which was such a wild thing.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  The Puerco ones that are so little.

• 18:32Ina Garten?

  But then you try and drink from it and your lip sticks just...

• 18:35Speaker 01

  It was freezing.

• 18:35Ina Garten?

  Freezing. Yeah. So I don't, I never really understood that.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  I have those too. I actually use them as bud vases, but they're so chic.

• 18:42Ina Garten?

  That's a much better idea. They're very chic. Extremely chic.

• 18:58Speaker 02

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• 19:43Ina Garten?

  Hi, everyone. I'm Kara Swisher.

• 19:45Speaker 03

  And I'm Scott Galloway.

• 19:46Ina Garten?

  Twice a week, we get together on Pivot to sort through the biggest stories in tech, business, and politics, and we're taking the show back on the road for a live tour in November.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  So we'll bring hot takes, I'll bring the insight, and the dick jokes, and Kara will try, keyword is try, to keep me in check. You'll get to see her hit me in person, live.

• 20:07Ina Garten?

  I'll do it. If someone has to do it.

• 20:09Speaker 03

  We'll cover AI, whatever chaos Washington's cooked up that week, and every billionaire misbehaving.

• 20:15Ina Garten?

  That's all of them. And you'll also get to participate in an audience Q and A, so bring your best questions. Scott will probably answer ones you didn't ask. We also have secret special guests, which you'll enjoy for every city. Get tickets at pivottour.com. That's pivottour.com.

• 20:30Speaker 03

  We are selling out, so don't wait, and we look forward to seeing you.

• 20:40Ina Garten?

  So how do you like to entertain? Do you like big parties, small parties?

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Well, let me tell you, my children have ruined my parties.

• 20:47Ina Garten?

  Why?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Because they're just, it's just too hard. Before we had children, we had such great...

• 20:55Ina Garten?

  So what'd you do before you had children?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Before we had children,

• 21:00Speaker 01

  my husband and I would sort of workshop a menu together. Usually, he would say, "I'm gonna make this," and I'd say, "No, we're gonna make this." And then we'd sort of compromise.

• 21:11Ina Garten?

  As in any good relationship?

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:14Ina Garten?

  And then you would decide, right?

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Pretty much.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  And then we have, we live in my mother's old apartment on Central Park South, which is a beautiful, has a beautiful, big room. And so I like to do a sort of, it's called dinotoir, like have a buffet and then just let people sort of make their plates.

• 21:35Ina Garten?

  I like a buffet, too.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, if it's, you know, six people or fewer, we'll obviously sit down, but I like people to be able to come and go as they like. One thing I love doing and that I'd like to do more of is tamales.

• 21:50Ina Garten?

  Oh.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  I love tamales for the holidays. I think we had a New Year's Eve party once where we had tamales and, I forget what we served with tamales, some kind of light salad.

• 22:02Ina Garten?

  So what are they filled with? So they're wrapped in leaves?

• 22:04Speaker 01

  They're wrapped in corn husks.

• 22:05Ina Garten?

  Yeah, corn husks.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  And we did one chicken and one veggie, which is mostly sort of corn and bean filling. But there's also, I think pork tamales are the most common. But we, I'm not a huge pork person. I've watched Babe too many times. But, yeah, so tamales, I think, I love a sort of festive main note of a meal. So tamales, and then, I love a, I love a drink that you're just giving people when they come in. I think that that's really nice. I love to do a mulled wine or a cider. Like, I like a cozy winter drink.

• 22:45Ina Garten?

  I think it's really important how you greet people at the door, that you're, you know, you don't just leave the door open, people can let themselves in, that there's music, you smell something, and then there's a drink when people arrive. I mean, there are other things that can happen. There's always some special drink.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Because here's the thing, as a guest, even if it's just in an afternoon, I have a meeting with someone or whatever, people say, "Oh, do you want some ice cream?" "No, no, I'm fine," or just water. If someone says to me, "I just made some mint lemonade," I'm not gonna say, "No," it sounds delightful, but I never ask someone for that. It's the same for an Americano. I mean, this is exactly what I wanted right now. I would never have asked you for one.

• 23:20Ina Garten?

  I'll drink to that. I think you need more.

• 23:24Ina Garten?

  You've had a hard week.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  But no, it's making me miss entertaining more. I also, I love, I also like ordering, I do like doing a mix of ordering food and making food.

• 23:39Ina Garten?

  I think this is what I call store-bought is just fine.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 23:43Ina Garten?

  And what I've, what I've started doing is what I call hot-rotting, which is you buy something from the store, but then you add to it.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 23:49Ina Garten?

  And you make it yours. Like, I have a new cookbook. One of the recipes is for raspberry cheesecake, and the first ingredient is buy a cheesecake from a, from a really good bakery.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 23:59Ina Garten?

  And make a raspberry sauce for it. So you've made it yours. It's kind of like dressing, right? You start with what the designer gives you, and then you make it your own.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 24:08Ina Garten?

  And so nobody knows that you didn't stand at the oven door going, "Is it done? Is it not done?"

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Oh, I love that.

• 24:13Ina Garten?

  So I like to do that. Start with something, and then, like, start with a pasta, and then add things to it.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  I sometimes do that to my detriment. Like, I love a store-bought baking mix with my kids, but then to make it mine, I'll like add an extra egg randomly. And my husband's always, it drives me nuts. He's like, it is, it is just like an architectural model. You have to actually follow the rules.

• 24:38Ina Garten?

  No, you don't. You're right. You can add, you know, you can add coffee to the chocolate, to brownie mix, you can add all kinds of things. Yeah, I'm with you on that. And that's making it yours.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Totally. The times we really entertain now is for our children's birthdays, which my husband accuses me of just throwing a party for my friends with a couple of toddlers baking. But for Alice's birthday, we got 50 empanadas, and then we made a salad or whatever to go with it. And it was a great mix to be able to have half of that that was pre-made. And then my sister and her daughter make the most amazing cakes for my kids' birthdays. And that is, if you have one thing...

• 25:27Ina Garten?

  You don't have to make everything.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  That's a centerpiece.

• 25:29Ina Garten?

  Exactly.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Because all anyone talks about is this unicorn cake. So who cares if you've got the empanadas in the subway?

• 25:34Ina Garten?

  And nobody, and it's about the people. It's not about the food. And if it's good and it's fine. I had a New Year's Day party once, a while ago, I have to do it again, where I literally make two pots of soup. I left them on the stove and on the table. It was a table like this. I just had a huge board with ham and cheese and all kinds of things.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  The dream.

• 25:51Ina Garten?

  And everybody just came when they wanted to, and they helped themselves to the soup, and there were bowls right next to the, and everybody had a great time.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  That's actually, now, now you're reminding me that the way we used to entertain, we don't entertain anymore, which is for adults at night. But now we entertain, we invite parents over with their kids. And that, my husband makes the most amazing chicken tenders with a panko crust and whatever. And they are so juicy and delicious. And he got a deep fryer, and he makes like...

• 26:22Ina Garten?

  Really?

• 26:23Speaker 01

  35 of them.

• 26:23Ina Garten?

  Wow.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  And everyone, you know, will have 12 people over, if it's like four kids and their parents, and everyone is eating the chicken tenders. Or he'll make, we also have a panini maker, and so we'll make like 15 grilled cheese and a big pot of tomato soup. And that way, the kids can have grilled cheese, we can have tomato soup, and everyone can sort of mix and match.

• 26:47Ina Garten?

  When I was a kid, or in East Hampton, which you've spent, you've spent a lot of time there. I've actually been, been to that. Do you still have that house? I don't think so. I used to have, do a lot of parties, and a lot of them were kids' parties, and the adults were there. And they would order adults' food for the adults and kids' food for the kids. And I would say to the chef, "We're gonna have two dinners for the adults, and all the adults are gonna eat the kids' food."

• 27:09Speaker 01

  100%.

• 27:09Ina Garten?

  So they're gonna want hot dogs and hamburgers and chicken tenders, so forget the adult food, bring a little bit, but bring a lot of the kids' food. So you might as well just do that, right?

• 27:17Speaker 01

  I mean, when my mother comes over, she eats all the children's food. And I'm like, "We have salmon."

• 27:24Ina Garten?

  Exactly. Nobody wants the salmon.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  And mixed, you know, whatever. And she's like, "Oh, no, no, just eating." Yeah.

• 27:31Ina Garten?

  How lucky they have a husband who cooks.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Yes, it's very lucky. But he's very strict in the kitchen.

• 27:37Ina Garten?

  Oh, as in, he has to be in charge?

• 27:39Speaker 01

  He doesn't like mess in the kitchen. He says the sign of a good chef is that you clean as you go.

• 27:43Ina Garten?

  Oh, he would hate the way I cook. I just, I start with a clean kitchen, but by the time I'm done, it's like total chaos.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  No, no, it's like a lot of cleaning as you go.

• 27:51Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  I also, in his defense, I tend to make messes in places you couldn't imagine.

• 27:59Ina Garten?

  Oh, I can imagine.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Like, even just putting, I put cinnamon in my coffee in the morning. I put cinnamon and maple syrup in my coffee. And Grandma's like, "It's 7:00 a.m., and like, there's signs of you everywhere." It's like, there's cinnamon in cracks you didn't know you had, there's maple syrup on the fridge door. It's a disaster.

• 28:19Ina Garten?

  And that's why he's the cook.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 28:22Ina Garten?

  And you'll keep it that way. So the cafeteria at Conde Nast is legendary, right?

• 28:27Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 28:28Ina Garten?

  And so does everybody stay with their group? Or does everybody mix together?

• 28:33Speaker 01

  That's a good question. There's certainly different cliques, and it tends to be by publication, just because that's who you know. But a lot of people go have friends at a different publication, and so you'll mix. For example, one of my best friends works at Architectural Digest, and I often sit with him, and then one of his colleagues will come, one of my colleagues will come. And then I've actually become friends with a lot of his colleagues because of that, which is lovely. And that's true for you.

• 28:59Ina Garten?

  And your interests cross over.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:01Ina Garten?

  So that's great.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  But it's, I love the food at the cafeteria. And actually, Bon Appetit has a special station two days a week. And there's always, it's like bit, bam, bop, and, you know, shrimp curry. There's very elaborate specialties. There's a great chicken milanese with... A delicious arugula salad. I'm a big fan. I'm in the Vogue capital.

• 29:27Ina Garten?

  What's your lunch of choice usually?

• 29:29Speaker 01

  There is, there's a grill station that will do burgers, grilled cheese, et cetera, for you. And I get grilled chicken with sweet potato fries and chipotle mayo.

• 29:40Ina Garten?

  Oh, that sounds good.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  And Dennis, the chef, calls out the Chloe special.

• 29:44Ina Garten?

  The Chloe special? Oh, is that what you have every day?

• 29:46Speaker 01

  I have it like, once, maybe twice a week.

• 29:50Ina Garten?

  I love to, I mean, I have soup every day. It's a different soup, but I always have soup. I just find it really satisfying.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  I love soup.

• 29:56Ina Garten?

  And you don't feel like you need to take a nap at your desk afterwards.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  That's a good point, is I do feel that might be the weakest link for Conde, is their soup selection.

• 30:05Ina Garten?

  I don't know how many people like soup. Maybe they found...

• 30:09Speaker 01

  It's like jumping into a cold pool. You never want to do it, but then you never regret it. Like, I'm always happy to have soup. But I never think, oh, I want soup.

• 30:19Ina Garten?

  If I had a salad for lunch, I'd be hungrier afterwards than I was before.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  I find that with soup sometimes. Like, I, there's a Pret a Manger below our office. And I, especially in the winter, will go and get their Moroccan lentil soup. But I have to get it with, like, I'm astounded by people who just eat soup. I have to get a bag of salt and vinegar chips. And I ladle the soup with the chips.

• 30:42Ina Garten?

  That's a good combination. See, that's cooking.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Yes, totally.

• 30:45Ina Garten?

  It's my idea of cooking now. So what's your favorite food like? What did you used to have when you were a kid? Did you, like, what did you want for your birthday?

• 30:56Speaker 01

  I loved, I loved steak. From when I was like, five years old. And my mother has been, as she calls it, a cute animal vegetarian since she was in her twenties. So she was always astounded by this. But when I, there's sort of family lore about me, like, digging into a big ribeye at Brassari Leap when I was five years old.

• 31:19Ina Garten?

  Isn't that great?

• 31:20Speaker 01

  And I love that.

• 31:21Ina Garten?

  And you still do?

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Yes. I always loved cheeseburgers. I had very strict British nannies who made me dinner. And they were not great cooks. So there was a lot of, like, boiled chicken and broccoli type of thing. So I don't, I don't think of, like, my nightly dinner as a, something to aspire to now. But I did love red meat when I had the option. And then the meal that my mom would always make me was breakfast. And I still...

• 31:51Ina Garten?

  For your birthday?

• 31:52Speaker 01

  No, no, just in general.

• 31:53Ina Garten?

  In general, yeah.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  And still, I would say, for my birthday, like, my dream meal is a great breakfast.

• 32:00Ina Garten?

  And what's a great breakfast?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Well, we live near the Brooklyn Diner. And that is one of my favorite places to go for breakfast. We go a lot with my kids. And they have something called the Tony Bennett French toast, which is a raisin challah made into French toast. And it is fantastic.

• 32:19Ina Garten?

  And did Tony Bennett used to order it? Is that why it's called that?

• 32:22Speaker 01

  He did. It was his specialty.

• 32:24Ina Garten?

  Yeah. And there's nothing like challah French toast. I actually make it with a little orange zest and orange juice. So it tastes very breakfasty, but it's just the best.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  It's delicious. So I get that, a side of basically burnt bacon. I do really like, another option would be, I like salmon eggs Benedict.

• 32:47Ina Garten?

  Salmon, oh, that sounds good.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  But I like the hollandaise on the side. I don't, I like to decide how drowned it is in hollandaise. I don't want someone else making that decision.

• 32:56Ina Garten?

  Have you ever made it? Have you ever made hollandaise? Hollandaise is much easier than you think because you can make it...

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Really? Seems daunting.

• 33:03Ina Garten?

  You know, don't do the Swiss thing. You put everything in a blender and turn it on, and it never breaks.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 33:07Ina Garten?

  Yeah. So you and I both love France. Do you spend a lot of time in Paris?

• 33:12Speaker 01

  It's been actually a real treat to spend more time there for work. I don't spend a lot of time there because my family has a house in the southwest of France. And we go there every summer. And I don't get a lot of time off, so we tend to go straight there.

• 33:29Ina Garten?

  What was it like growing up? It was a big country house? And there was a turret where your bedroom was?

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:34Ina Garten?

  Is that right?

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Well, yes, the bathrooms are in the turret.

• 33:37Ina Garten?

  So tell me about growing up there. What was it like?

• 33:39Speaker 01

  We would go, my father spent a lot of time there. And we would go for most of the summer when I was growing up. And as my mother likes to remind me, it was much less cosmopolitan then. So she would say, you'd have to drive 30 minutes for the Herald Tribune and blah, blah, blah. Either, now I'm like, oh, yeah, I just, you know, I went to the ATM. There's an ATM? But it is this amazing stone manor house that actually once was a monastery, a monks...

• 34:09Ina Garten?

  Oh, really?

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Not a monastery, a place where monks lived. What is that called? An abbey.

• 34:15Ina Garten?

  An abbey, yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  An abbey.

• 34:17Ina Garten?

  That sounds good.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  And then it really fell into disrepair. It was built in various stages.

• 34:24Ina Garten?

  Was that from the 15th century?

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:26Ina Garten?

  Wow.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  And then during the Second World War, when it was in ruins, it actually was a hideout for the French Resistance, which was very active in that area. And then my father bought it when it was completely eaten by vines in the 60s. I mean, it's been almost 60 years, 70, early 70s, yeah. And so now my brother and my sister and I share it.

• 34:50Ina Garten?

  And so you go, do you go during the summer? Or do you go all year round?

• 34:53Speaker 01

  No, I, it's quite far. So I, for me, I go only during the summer. But my sister and my brother go more often because they both live in Paris.

• 35:00Ina Garten?

  And so how is it different now than when you were a kid? Other than you're responsible for two children?

• 35:04Speaker 01

  That's a good question. I mean, when I was a kid, I, even when I was very young, I loved the freedom of the time there. And I would make extensive lists of what I wanted to be doing each day. I would be doing crafts, or writing, or reading. And I loved that. And now I find my days are more pulled upon, which is different.

• 35:34Ina Garten?

  I remember talking to somebody who was a career therapist. And I said, well, what do you ask people? Like, how do you figure out what career they should have? And she said, I ask them what they used to do when they were 10. And you were making lists and organizing things, and you were doing crafts and creating things, which is really what...

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Oh, that's true.

• 35:50Ina Garten?

  Isn't that interesting? It really relates to what you're doing.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 35:54Ina Garten?

  You're preparing.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:56Ina Garten?

  So your first job, before Vogue, was at The Observer, which was great. And you got the assignment of doing real estate, which sounds kind of boring, right? But you made it so interesting.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Oh, well, thank you.

• 36:08Ina Garten?

  Well, you did, you decided to write about the people in the real estate, not the real estate. Am I right? Is that what happened?

• 36:14Speaker 01

  That's what's interesting.

• 36:15Ina Garten?

  Yeah.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  And I actually...

• 36:17Ina Garten?

  Was that fun?

• 36:18Speaker 01

  It was so much fun because also, I was 23 years old. It's a great way to learn about the way power moves in New York. Who's selling, who's buying?

• 36:27Ina Garten?

  Oh, interesting.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  What areas are people moving to? Who's moving away from where?

• 36:31Ina Garten?

  Who's getting divorced?

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Who's getting divorced? Who's selling their apartment to who? It really dictates the movers and shakers of New York.

• 36:40Ina Garten?

  How interesting. And did Arthur Carter own it then?

• 36:43Speaker 01

  No, Jerry Kushner. And actually, in the time, I was there for less than two years, and there were four editors in the period I was there, which was astounding.

• 36:53Ina Garten?

  Wow.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  But I learned everything from that. And I really loved working there. And it felt like being in His Girl Friday. I mean, it was really a real bustling newsroom. And that was amazing.

• 37:07Ina Garten?

  I mean, the sense I get from you is you love every job you've ever had, which is wonderful.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  I do, it's true.

• 37:11Ina Garten?

  It's a great place to be.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 37:13Ina Garten?

  It's just a really great place to be.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:15Ina Garten?

  Thank you so, so much.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Cheers. Thank you, Ina.

• 37:18Ina Garten?

  It's so nice to see you.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  This was such a treat.

• 37:20Ina Garten?

  We need more Marcano's for you. Happy Hour is hosted by me, Ina Garten. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman, Alejandra Ramos, and Deborah Davis. Kate Tyler is a contributing producer, and Jules Knapp, a producer. Mika Pollan-Bon is our associate producer. Tim Fernandez is the video editor, with sound recording by Mike Larini and audio mixing by Joe Plord. Our camera operators for this episode are Liam Lee and Chris Violet. Music for the show is by Pink Martini. Special thanks to cinematographer Dion Beebe. Happy Hour with Ina is a Vox Media podcast.