#808: Stephen West — From High School Dropout to Hit Podcast, and from Stocking Groceries to Reading Philosophy for a Living

Stephen West is a father, husband, and host of the Philosophize This! https://www.philosophizethis.org/podcasts podcast. Sponsors: Gusto https://gusto.com/tim simple and easy payroll, HR, and benefits platform used by 400,000+ businesses: https://gusto.com/tim (three months free) Momentous https://livemomentous.com/tim high-quality supplements: https://livemomentous.com/tim (code TIM for up to 35% off) Eight Sleep’s Pod 4 Ultra https://eightsleep.com/Tim sleeping solution for dynamic cooling and heating: https://eightsleep.com/tim (save $350 on the Pod 4 Ultra) Timestamps: [00:00:00] So it begins. [00:06:11] Stephen’s challenging childhood — from San Diego to Child Protective Services. [00:07:55] How Stephen supported himself after dropping out of school at 16. [00:09:37] The physical wear and tear of warehouse work (and unexpected upsides of the job). [00:11:48] How Stephen discovered philosophy through googling “wisest person in history.” [00:14:07] Defining philosophy as a “disruption of common sense” and “gym for rethinking.” [00:16:06] The 4-Hour Workweek as a philosophical text. [00:19:27] A philosophical shift around Ralph Waldo Emerson. [00:22:18] The transition from warehouse work to starting Philosophize This! with friendly encouragement. [00:27:47] Authenticity as the secret sauce to Philosophize This! [00:32:24] The discomfort of comparing old episodes with new. [00:34:15] The current state of Philosophize This!: 225 episodes, Patreon, ads, upcoming book deal. [00:37:18] The value of focusing on content quality before monetization. [00:38:44] Most popular Philosophize This! episodes thus far. [00:40:00] Philosophize This! episodes I’d like to hear. [00:41:20] Thinking of philosophy as a verb, not a noun. [00:46:44] The concept of amor fati (love of fate) and its practical application. [00:48:41] Wittgenstein’s ladder as a metaphor for philosophical growth. [00:51:36] Stephen’s perspective on philosophy as a process rather than a set of protocols. [00:54:43] Philosophies that have personal meaning to Stephen: Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, Simone Weil. [00:56:40] Simone Weil’s concept of attention and self-emptying. [00:59:26] Stephen’s approach to simplicity and sacrificing efficiency for meaning. [01:04:07] Valuing time and playing the long game. [01:06:01] How philosophy lives “in the shadow” of what we give credit to (science, psychology). [01:08:31] The value of philosophy in generating better questions. [01:10:06] Stephen’s future plans: possibly writing philosophical fiction. [01:19:05] Stephen’s billboard. [01:21:41] Recommendations for getting started with philosophy. [01:24:29] Gilles Deleuze and concepts as machines. [01:26:55] Why do we believe what we believe? [01:30:40] Stephen’s evolving relationship with religion after starting as a New Atheist. [01:32:33] Exploring mysticism and religious phenomenology. [01:37:51] Parting thoughts. * For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts https://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books https://tim.blog/books. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. 大家好，好久不见，好久没有听到你的声音了。 This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. And my guest today needs no introduction, but maybe he does. His name is Stephen West. I say he needs no introduction because he has been in my ears for years upon years. Stephen West is a father, husband, and host of the Philosophize This Podcast. His genesis story is insane. His ability to synthesize decades and centuries and millennia of wisdom into tight little episodes and nuggets that actually deliver the goods is incredible. So I will let him say more about all of that.

• 0:42Tim Ferriss?

  But he's one of the best people I've come across who can explain, translate, and humanize philosophy in a way that, in my words, doesn't teach you what to think, but how to think better. And he does that by studying the smartest people or the wisest people that have been recorded throughout history. You can find him online at philosophizethis.org. Patreon also philosophizethis on X at I am Stephen West, and that is with a P H, Stephen West, and on YouTube at philosophizethispodcast. And we'll get right to the meat and potatoes of everything. But first, just a few words from the people who make this podcast possible. Many people wonder how I end up getting sponsors on this podcast.

• 1:25Tim Ferriss?

  And first and foremost, I say no to 80-plus percent of the products and services that get pitched, but I always test them. And I test things either personally, or if they make the first round of vetting, my team and many others will look at these things, then I test the few who make it myself, or I put them on social media at odd hours to get real feedback. How much would current users recommend a close friend use this service? I asked millions of you about Gusto on social media, and I've never seen such overwhelmingly positive responses. It was kind of bonkers, honestly, because I've done this dozens of times. And it makes sense. More than 400,000 small businesses already trust Gusto, and it's been named the number one payroll software by

• 2:10Tim Ferriss?

  For winter 2025. If you're a small business owner looking to simplify payroll and HR tasks, because why would you want to spend more time on those things? Gusto could be the game changer that you need. Gusto is the all-in-one payroll, benefits and HR platform designed specifically for small businesses. They automatically file federal, state and local payroll taxes, handle W2s and 1099s. What a pain in the ass all those can be and offers straightforward health benefits and 401k options for nearly any budget. With an intuitive interface and features like time tracking, onboarding tools and direct access to certified HR experts, Gusto saves time and eliminates headaches so you can focus on what matters, which is growing your business, among other things.

• 2:52Tim Ferriss?

  Now is the perfect time to choose Gusto to take care of your team and stay compliant. So go to gusto.com/tim to see why nine out of 10 Gusto customers recommend Gusto. Listeners get three months free once they run their first payroll. Again, that's G U S T O dot com slash Tim. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep and heat is my personal nemesis. I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, pulling the back on, putting one leg on top and repeating all of that ad nauseam. But now I am falling asleep in record time. Why? Because I'm using a device

• 3:33Tim Ferriss?

  that was recommended to me by friends called the Pod Cover by Eight Sleep. The Pod Cover fits on any mattress and allows you to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment, providing the optimal temperature that gets you the best night's sleep. With the Pod Cover's dual-zone temperature control, you and your partner can set your sides of the bed to as cool as 55 degrees or as hot as 110 degrees. I think generally in my experience, my partners prefer the high side and I like to sleep very, very cool. So stop fighting. This helps. Based on your biometrics, environment and sleep stages, the Pod Cover makes temperature adjustments throughout the night that limit wake-ups and increase your percentage of deep sleep. In addition to its best-in-class temperature regulation, the Pod Cover sensors also track

• 4:16Tim Ferriss?

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• 4:53Speaker 01

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question?

• 4:59Tim Ferriss?

  No, we're seeing an appropriate time.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 5:16Tim Ferriss?

  Stephen, I'm so happy that you are here in Austin, Texas. Welcome. Thank you. I made it. You made it. You made it. And I want to give a thank you upfront to a friend of mine. I think you've had some virtual interaction with him, Dave Illich. Yeah. Professional drummer, all around mensch, amazing human. And he sent me an article I'm going to quote from very shortly, which was, in a sense, a revisiting of you, and not so much your story, but your thinking for me, because I started listening to your podcast ages ago. And our dear videographer, who is helping with everything behind the scenes, listens to Philosophize This. My producer listens to Philosophize This. And in my little world,

• 6:01Tim Ferriss?

  it is very well represented. Wow. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. And it's an amazing contribution, incredible craft that you've honed. But as promised, I wanted to quote from a piece that was sent to me by Dave Illich. This was in The Atlantic, written by Thomas Chatterton Williams, great name. And here's the line, or two, that I will share. 11 years ago, Stephen West was stocking groceries at a Safeway warehouse in Seattle. He was 24 and had been working to support himself since dropping out of high school at 16. Okay, so we're going to start there.

• 6:39Speaker 03

  And actually, we're going to rewind the clock even further. Could you just share a bit about your childhood, how you grew up, anything that comes to mind? Clearly, something went wrong along the way. If I ended up dropping out of high school at 16. By the way, great writing from Thomas Chatterton Williams, by the way. Incredible. Dense writing there. It's like Hemingway. My parents had their own issues, as people's parents do. You know, everybody grows up with their own stuff. Where were you born? San Diego, San Diego. And then I moved to Alabama, actually, North Carolina. My dad was in the military when I was very young, so I went to North Carolina, then Alabama for a while, and then we went back to California. And then I was taken by CPS off the streets when I was nine, for the first time. Child Protective Services.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. We hadn't had an apartment in a few months, and they just thought it was best. I then went to like, group homes, and I was placed with family members at first. And then they also had pretty toxic relationships. Apparently, that's how it works. Like, my parents come from messed up situations. So when I then get replaced with one of these people, apparently, they also have kind of messed up situations. But anyway, taken by CPS again, separated from my big sister early, long-term foster placement when I was 14 up in Washington, which is where I live now. And I haven't moved since. All right. But yeah, when I was 16, I didn't have any place to stay. There was a long-term foster placement, like I said.

• 8:01Speaker 03

  And they did me a solid. They said, "Look, in the state of Washington, you don't have to report somebody as a missing person if they're over the age of 16. So what we can do for you is if you just were to run away, because this obviously isn't working in this whole circumstance, we won't report you as a missing person." That was the best offer I'd ever gotten at that point. So I took it. I lived in my friend's car for a bit. I got an apartment with a person that I was working with at the time. I wasn't old enough to sign a lease, so I had to just sort of be on an honor system with him. And eventually, I moved in with my girlfriend at the time. Anyway, it was a, you know, people make do. What did your kind of day-to-day, week-to-week look like at that point? I worked a lot. That's why I had to drop out of schools, because I had to work full-time to pay my bills. If I had no place to stay,

• 8:41Speaker 03

  I needed to get a place to stay, and so I made money. And so I worked at Safeway as a bagger for groceries. And then eventually, I got promoted to a helper clerk, which is like you stock shelves and you refill stuff, get stuff for customers, so. That was the biggest accomplishment of my life at the time.

• 8:55Tim Ferriss?

  And when did you get that promotion? What age were you roughly?

• 8:59Speaker 03

  Sixteen.

• 9:00Tim Ferriss?

  Sixteen?

• 9:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:00Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, got it. How long did you continue working at Safeway?

• 9:03Speaker 03

  Actually, I worked at Safeway and I wasn't making enough money at Safeway making seven whatever an hour it was. So I worked at Jo and Fabrics, which actually was next door. There was a Safeway and a Jo and Fabrics next door. I mean, this is like a grandma's wet dream. And I would just like wound the yellow yarn every morning at 4:00 AM and like stock stuff there. I, I, that was literally my life for a while. It's just, I would show up to Jo and Fabrics at 4:00 AM, work from like 4:30 to 12:30 and then I'd work the night shift at Safeway, not night, but you know, the blast helper clerk shift from 3:30 to nine or whatever it was. That was not fun. Eventually, I didn't want to do that anymore. I thought instead of having two jobs, I will just get one job where I make fourteen dollars an hour at the warehouse and I'll use whatever

• 9:45Speaker 03

  good reputation I've accumulated here thus far. And my manager was cool with it and I transferred over there at like seventeen and a half.

• 9:52Tim Ferriss?

  So dumb question of somewhat of a specialist in those. Why does the warehouse pay more than the other roles you had?

• 10:00Speaker 03

  It's harder work. You show up every day, your back hurts at the end of the day. You don't want to come back the next day. Look, the thing that made, the thing that made me want to start a podcast is looking at the old dudes that were working in the office and they would walk out to their car like just, like their backs had been fused together by like multiple spinal surgeries. It's just like walking on that hard concrete and lifting fifty pound boxes on a pallet all day long. It's, it's repetitive labor and it's brutal. Yeah.

• 10:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I challenge anyone listening, if they have never done it, just go stand on concrete for a few hours. It is excruciating.

• 10:35Speaker 03

  I need good shoes.

• 10:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, it is. And people are like, oh no, I walk on the streets. No, not the same. Asphalt's different. It's like a trampoline compared to concrete. What were the best aspects and the worst aspects? I think you covered some of the worst of that warehousing job.

• 10:51Speaker 03

  You are so wise for asking that question because you know, when you get older, you look back, you notice things that you didn't notice at the time. The best aspect of it, I miss it sometimes talking to the guys in the warehouse. There are a lot of really good guys there and I don't have that social element to the podcast. The other thing is, I got to listen to audiobooks all day long. I mean, what other job could I have gotten? I didn't even know I was stumbling into something that would open up so many possibilities for me at the time. It felt like I was just a day laborer, just horrible. But yeah, I got to listen to philosophy books all day long and talk radio. I got to listen to like Love Line with Adam Carolla and Dr. Drew and Howard Stern, just like listening to these people. Just paint pictures with their words. It was beautiful.

• 11:33Speaker 03

  And yeah, I mean, if I worked at an office or if I worked at a fast food place, I easily could have ended up in any of those spots. If I did, I wouldn't have been able to read books 10 hours a day. That was, in retrospect, an amazing thing about the job. Yeah.

• 11:48Tim Ferriss?

  So for people listening, they may think to themselves, I wouldn't immediately, if I were in your position, find philosophy. It could have been, not to devalue any of these things, but it could have been Hunger Games, could have been any of a million genres, any of a million authors. How did you end up listening to philosophy? Or how did philosophy even enter your life in the first place?

• 12:13Speaker 03

  I kind of looked into that one, too. I, I was a dumb 17, 16 year old kid, right on that cusp. I was self-aware enough to know that I had had trauma from the messed up childhood that we just talked about. So I didn't want to just spend my whole life taking that out on the people around me. I knew that I needed mentors and I wasn't in school. I didn't have like people to look up to really, and I wasn't talking to my family. So I literally Googled wisest person in the history of the world. It was my best idea I could come up with at the time. And one of Plato's dialogues, Gorgias, came up there and it talked about this guy Socrates. He's harassing people in the Athenian agora, he's asking them questions, trying to find a wise man. And I just got hooked, man.

• 12:55Tim Ferriss?

  What was it about it that hooked you? Were there any particular aspects that grabbed you? Because a lot of folks, right, listening to this, no doubt, some of them took compulsory classes in school, related to philosophy, and they're just like, please shoot me in the head now, right? In some cases, not all cases.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  No, I don't blame them.

• 13:11Tim Ferriss?

  Right? It did not have that effect on you, at least with your self-directed exploration. What was it that appealed to you or hooked you?

• 13:20Speaker 03

  It was voluntary. I mean, that's a big part of it is I'm not being forced into doing it. This is why I don't want to force my daughter, who's eight, to like, think about stuff or ask her philosophical questions. I just, I think the best way to get your kid to not do something is to tell them to do it. So, uh, but, but yeah, aside from the voluntary nature of it, I think that I just have always been somebody that thinks my way out of problems. And so the idea that this is the discipline, if comedians go to a comedy club and it's his pure endeavor of trying to make people laugh, that's what makes a comedian what they are. For philosophy, thinking about things like that, forming new conceptual tracings of reality, seeing it in a new way. I mean, this is, of course, I would be attracted to something like that, as somebody that always thinks my way out of problems.

• 14:03Speaker 03

  I mean, that's the only service I can really provide to the people around me that like, matter to me.

• 14:07Tim Ferriss?

  So for the purposes of this conversation, how would you define or rebrand philosophy? For people who have an immediate semi-allergic reaction, because perhaps they've heard a bunch of ivory tower specialists speaking in riddles or speaking in logic slash math puzzles that no one can make any sense of. I shouldn't say no one. Yes, there are like seventeen people who probably make a lot of sense out of all of it. But how do you suggest people think about philosophy?

• 14:41Speaker 03

  I used to dislike those people. I thought that they were being too selfish. They're making it all about them. I think they have really good intentions and I think it's hard when you get to be a professor to know what it's like to just be starting out. For me, I would say philosophy, a way that I've heard it described is it's the disruption of common sense. I mean, what is looking at the world at all? It's an approximation. We are, work's in progress. I look at the world one way for a while and everybody knows what it's like to change the way that you see everything in the world. And yeah, I mean, I just think philosophy is the method of doing that. The question is not whether you're going to change the way that you think about things conceptually. The question is, how deliberate are you going to be about it? It's like the gym for Rethinking, retracing reality in a new way that opens up new possibilities to you.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  And it's also something that needs to go on at the highest levels of conversation.

• 15:29Tim Ferriss?

  Right. Yeah, it's like recreation or kind of unfocused activity versus deliberate practice. Right. To use your comedy example, interviewed Jerry Seinfeld, actually, right at, I was at this table and it was a few years ago, but the actual craft, right, the lifting of the weights, so to speak.

• 15:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:49Tim Ferriss?

  The writing, the testing, how do you approach it in a systematic way? And how could you take something like that and then apply it to the love of knowledge or philosophy or reframing things, learning how to stress test your own thinking? When you were in the warehouse, you got 10 hours a day with headphones. Were there any particular kind of formative inputs that influenced the path that would later land you in the podcast?

• 16:21Speaker 03

  I was reading everything I could get my hands on and transparently, The Four Hour Work Week was a huge book that allowed me to think about possibilities in my life in a new way. I mean, that's why I think, I get that it's maybe weird to call it a work of philosophy, The Four Hour Work Week, because it's in the business section, right? But like, what I love from philosophy books, what they do to me, that book did for me in certain areas. You're calling into question assumptions that we're making about things like new rich, what it is to be wealthy at all, retirement. This is something that most people just assume is going to be at the end of their life. They don't even really think about it anymore than that. What was possible in terms of how to make money or how to automate certain aspects of your life?

• 17:02Speaker 03

  I mean, and you're also talking about it in contrast to an emerging digital world that at the time was just coming about, like new possibilities were presenting themselves in people's lives that they weren't necessarily aware of. And yeah, I mean, what philosopher is talking about these issues? So that book was beautiful for me to even think that it was possible to start a podcast. So for whatever it's worth, thank you for that.

• 17:24Tim Ferriss?

  Thanks.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  I mean, I wouldn't be here.

• 17:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, thank you for saying that. And also what's wild about the book is And I revised it in 2009 and then realized this is an absolutely Sisyphean task to try to revise this because the tech is moving so fast.

• 17:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:39Tim Ferriss?

  So everything in that book, from a technical perspective, is completely outdated.

• 17:42Speaker 03

  Right?

• 17:43Tim Ferriss?

  Right. All of it, but it's sort of the philosophical underpinnings, which I think still apply.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. When you wrote it, did you intend for it to inspire people like me? I mean, were you thinking about it philosophically or were you thinking about it like, I have all this knowledge and I'm going to trade it for $13 or whatever the book's price was?

• 18:01Tim Ferriss?

  I would say it was, it was more the former. I mean, at that point, I had, let's see, had these experiences with my first real business. I had had the corresponding implosion slash personal and professional meltdown and then the rebirth from the ashes, but figuring out the technological approaches and so on. However, when I first was automating my business and traveling, I want to say mid 2004, there were only a few books I took with me. If I'm remembering correctly, I think there were actually three. I think in some places I've mentioned two, two of them. Walden, very aspirational at the time, although the backstory on Walden's pretty funny with

• 18:45Tim Ferriss?

  Thoreau sneaking off to have fancy dinners with Emerson or whatever. And so, but let's just take it for what it's worth. Okay, Walden, then Vagabonding by Rolf Potts, which had a huge impact on me. An uncommon guide to the art of long-term world travel, I think it is, which is also a very deeply philosophical book fundamentally. And then the third was the, I suppose technically the moral letters to Lucilius, but letters from a Stoic, Seneca. And what I realized over the following year or so, which was well before writing the book, well before selling the book.

• 19:27Tim Ferriss?

  The tools are secondary to the assumptions based on how you're going to use them, what you can do with them versus what you can't do with them, and the objectives. And when you come down to those, let's just say, base levels of the pyramid, it turns into a philosophical discussion, whether you use that word or not. It's a mode of thinking, and how do you cross-examine your own thinking?

• 19:54Speaker 03

  I think philosophy has a tendency of living in the shadow of the thing we actually give credit to for the thing, and that goes on personally in our lives. I mean, it would be very easy for me to just call what I did with the podcast a matter of hard work and a matter of circumstance and content strategy, or like a knowledge thing that I'm doing, but really it was a philosophical shift that made it possible to even think about. You mentioned Walden, and I mean, another one of the transcendentalists, Ralph Waldo Emerson, is a person that had a huge impact on me at this time as well. In fact, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him either. I used to think, something that he talks about in Self-Reliance and other essays, to have a podcast or a YouTube channel or whatever it was, you needed to be a genius. There's kind of a myth that I think gets promoted, is like, if you're not a genius,

• 20:37Speaker 03

  you have nothing really that interesting to say, so who's ever going to follow you? And that stuff. He was living during a time right around the abolition of slavery. So in the United States, it's a crucial time, a lot of changes are going on. There's also an Irish immigrant crisis going on at the time. And he wants to inspire people with his work to take action, to think for themselves, to be the catalyst for change in the world, if that's something that they want. And the way to apply what he's talking about to like a YouTube channel is, I mean, look at these YouTube creators, are they geniuses? Are these people unparalleled geniuses, thinkers of our time? No, they're people that have a certain message that they're sending, and that message corresponds to something that already exists in culture.

• 21:20Speaker 03

  You don't need to be a genius, you just need to be saying something that resonates with other people. That was huge for me to notice that. You can just be a catalyst for a sentiment that already exists in the hearts of people, and then you become the thing that they connect to. Like, they start to see you as symbolic of that. So really, he maybe changed my thinking. To write and to say something worth saying is not to be a genius, it's to be brave, it's to be the one to say it and to have courage. Really, that's probably a primary factor that determines whether one of these YouTube creators is successful or has a channel or not, it's just... They were the ones to say it, you know, they had the courage to say it and risk all the bad that might come from that, right?

• 21:58Tim Ferriss?

  Where would you suggest people start with Emerson if they haven't read his writing?

• 22:02Speaker 03

  So I'd say self reliance and on nature are the two that you absolutely have to read. But if you like what he's saying in those two, I would definitely run into go to secondary sources and just read every essay that he ever wrote. He actually didn't write that much. He was a guy that was kind of preoccupied with other things.

• 22:18Tim Ferriss?

  So when did you switch gears and do something other than the warehouse job? Or did you do something concurrent and then sort of fade something in while you're fading something out? What did the next chapter look like?

• 22:32Speaker 03

  I wanted to start the podcast. I mean, I didn't know if it was possible. I didn't know. I certainly didn't have a dream of doing it as like a living where it could provide for my family. At the time I was much younger, so I had less responsibilities. I did some math. I realized I needed to make like 800 bucks a month to be able to do it. And there's this guy Scott I was playing guitar with at the time and he inspired me here too. He worked at Duke's Chowder House. It's like a seafood place up in Seattle. He was a server and his mom would give him crap all the time. Like just why don't you get a real job? And he would just play guitar all day and then go serving at Duke's Chowder House. And I would talk to him about it. And he's like, look, I don't want to be a rock star. I don't want to be like a millionaire doing this. All I want to do is be able to play a few gigs on the weekend or some studio sessions or something. And then I'm playing

• 23:16Speaker 03

  guitar for a living. I am literally living the dream if I can do that. And Duke's Chowder House is just how I pacify my mom. I just pay her some rent, right? For me, it was like I needed to find a way to make 800 bucks with the podcast. That could satisfy whatever obligations I had at the home, my half of the rent and utilities at the time. So yeah, at the warehouse, they had this thing, weekends only. Instead of working seven days a week on call, which was the norm, I never had a scheduled day off my entire time working there. I would just work on the weekends. It would be a guaranteed thing I'd come in. And the reason they would do it that way is because they don't have to pay a benefits package at that point. It benefits the company at some level.

• 23:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 23:53Speaker 03

  Um, but for me, it was perfect because then I could work five days a week. And if I could find a way to make 800 bucks a month, just doing the podcast and writing on the side and stuff like that, I just go in on the weekends, eight hours, you know, that was my version of phasing in the podcast and phasing out the like warehousing. Another thing I'm very fortunate to have.

• 24:09Tim Ferriss?

  So let's take a closer look at that. So interested in the catalyzing periods, right? Like what happened in the span of a few weeks where you thought, well, maybe I could do this, but aren't those people geniuses to, okay, I'm actually going to do weekends only? And take that, which is a non-trivial step, right?

• 24:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:32Tim Ferriss?

  Like, what did that look like? I mean, was there a particular conversation? Was there like a particular week of just gobbling at will because your back was bothering? Like, how did it go from, you know, maybe kind of in some universe that's maybe possible, but don't I have to be a genius to, all right, I'm going to work two days a week?

• 24:52Speaker 03

  It was two things. On one hand, I'd been working there for years, so my back hurt every single day. It was utter desperation on one level. I hated my life there. Now, again, I look back now being in my 30s and I, I don't think I had any reason to hate what I had going on there, but I did at the time, honestly, that was my experience. And so I was very desperate to try to make anything work. There was a guy named Jimmy Weisenhunt, he was like a shoutcaster for esports at the time, but he was my friend.

• 25:17Tim Ferriss?

  What is a shoutcaster?

• 25:18Speaker 03

  Shoutcaster is like a person that does comedy, like John Madden does commentary for, uh, football. This guy does it for Counter-Strike and Starcraft and stuff like that.

• 25:25Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, cool.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. So anyway, I was talking to him at the time and he was just like, look, man, he pulled me aside and he was like, it would honestly be a shame if you didn't at least try something in media. Like you should just try it. And even if you fail, like whatever, but I'm just, I'm here to tell you, that dude had such an impact on me.

• 25:42Tim Ferriss?

  How did you know each other?

• 25:44Speaker 03

  I used to play games around this time too. I would play Starcraft 2 with, uh, friends and I was playing at a pretty high level. So I knew people that were like in the business. So yeah, he was in their circles and stuff and we just kind of vibed.

• 25:56Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Nice. Okay. So, so he's telling you, it would just be a shame if you never tried. You gotta try something.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, that hit me, man. Like, I mean, for a person that's competitive and then a person that, uh, just is already hating my life at the warehouse at the time, like...

• 26:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, it just, it made me want to take a chance. And then the whole Emerson thing, I don't even gotta be a genius, right? I just gotta be brave enough to say it. It felt possible.

• 26:21Tim Ferriss?

  And what did you look to? Cause this was early days, right? I mean, when was this? Like 2012, 2013?

• 26:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:28Tim Ferriss?

  Something along those lines. So this is very early. And I mean, to put that in perspective, this podcast that we're on right now started that in 2014. So you predated me in the world of podcasting. And for people who drown in the paradox of choice problem presented by podcast currently, back then it was a much smaller pond, right? Who did you look to for inspiration? Again, some ways, and it's not exactly the same. The game is a little different, but and this is, I say, this is a huge compliment. Like you remind me in some ways of Dan Carlin and hardcore history.

• 27:06Speaker 03

  That's the literal guy that I used to listen to at the warehouse. So that's, it's a huge compliment to hear.

• 27:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So Dan, and for people who don't know, I've interviewed Dan, you can look it up. A phenomenal human and he is not, he will be the first person to tell you, professional historian. Right? He doesn't check all the boxes on the CV. And yet he makes it so compelling. And like you said, having the bravery to say what's in the hearts of others. But fundamentally, the way I see it is you are sharing what is in your heart. Dan is sharing what is of interest to him.

• 27:40Speaker 03

  Right.

• 27:41Tim Ferriss?

  Imagine if you will, General Subadi looking down.

• 27:46Tim Ferriss?

  And that's from Wrath of the Conds, if people want to watch.

• 27:49Speaker 03

  Fantastic series.

• 27:50Tim Ferriss?

  And I say watch, that's an interesting slip because his language is so visually evocative.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:56Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, Dan Carlin, that makes a whole lot of sense. So is there anybody else who you're like, ah, maybe I can take a little bit of that, a little bit of that? Because Dan Carlin also does mega series. His podcasts are long. I mean Wrath of the Conds, I'm making this up, but it's like four or five parts. Each one is like four to five hours.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's, he's fantastic. And I mean, in terms of inspiration, at the time, I remember consciously not wanting to copy other people. In fact, I was listening to a Dave Chappelle interview at the time, I think. And he was just talking about how it was Miles Davis or. Dizzy Gillespie or something like that, just at the beginning of their career when they were playing trumpet, they just did an impression of another trumpet player. And you see this in a lot of like industries where people will just be even subconsciously trying to do an impression of what they think success looks like. But I had read enough philosophy at that time to really not want to fall into that trap. I mean, I knew I was highly inspired by him. So I didn't want to sound too much like him. I wanted to be able to develop my own style. If anything, it was a negative inspiration because I noticed there was a

• 28:54Speaker 03

  gap in the philosophy sort of market. I was a big fan of podcasts. So I would be listening to philosophy, but just trying to find something to pass the time at work, right? So I just noticed there were a lot of really smart, really talented people, Peter Adamson, History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps, Partially Examined Life at the Time was huge. And it's like, I just wanted to do something that was a little more humanizing, a little more translating. That's all I was thinking.

• 29:18Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. And you commit to working two days a week. What else are you committing to? Right? So now you have five days a week. What is the experimental or prototyping phase look like? Did you apply some constraints right up front? How did you approach that?

• 29:37Speaker 03

  Luckily for me, it took off fairly quickly. So I spent a few months before just researching how to launch a podcast. Like, I would just listen to podcasts about podcasting. I would read books about it, about blogging too, because there really wasn't that much. Like, there was this, this feeling at the time that, I mean, what's the cliche, the radio is to the TV, the TV is to the phone, or something like that, right? Like, the phone, this narrow casting that is like developing is, is going to be big. But there's no playbook for how to actually do it. So, yeah, I started researching just how to take advantage of the launch phase of a podcast. Nobody really knows what the algorithms are doing or why they're doing it. But there's theories. And so I would just read every theory I possibly

• 30:20Speaker 03

  could. And so, yeah, I mean, that's what I did. I, on the day that I launched the podcast, I got everybody that I know to listen to it and leave an honest review. And I, I tried to take advantage of all that I could there. And so- The first week I was on the new and noteworthy section on iTunes. It was a successful launch, you know. And then after that, people I host the podcast with started reaching out and talking about ads. I didn't really want to do ads at that point, but you know, it started taking off pretty quickly. So, you know, there luckily wasn't too much of a time period there.

• 30:49Tim Ferriss?

  If you had to hindsight 2020, look back and identify some of the other, say, critical decisions, whether you made them really consciously or not at the time, what were other things you did right with the launch of the podcast, recognizing that launching then and launching now are quite different animals, but still I think there are lessons to be learned.

• 31:09Speaker 03

  I think I just made it as much me as I could. I leaned into that aspect of podcasting. What I loved about Dan Carlin is that it just felt like I was there and he was talking to me. I think a lot of people at the time saw podcasting as like an afterthought. It was just the free content so you could drive people to funnels to then sell them the premium content or something, right? I saw it as like a very open-ended medium that was beautiful and it could be a three-hour conversation with people smoking weed, talking about nothing. It could be, you know, 10 minutes of highly focused-

• 31:42Tim Ferriss?

  Can't imagine who that is.

• 31:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, me neither. But it's been highly successful, right? I mean, pretty successful.

• 31:47Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, the most successful.

• 31:48Speaker 03

  You could say. No, but it's beautiful, the medium, how versatile it is, you know? So that's, that's what I saw. And so I just wanted to be my own lane there. You know, I didn't want to be a part of podcasting. I wanted to just be a shop. There's an interview with Bill Burr on the Fearless series. He was talking about, I don't really see myself as part of comedy. I just sort of do my, my thing and I guess I'm a part of comedy. I set up a stand in the middle of a mall, he was saying, you know? That's how I see it. Like, I just didn't think about what a podcast was and try to appeal to that. I just tried to make it as authentic as I could. And I think that was one good thing that I did.

• 32:23Tim Ferriss?

  All right. And in the beginning- My understanding is you approached it chronologically. Maybe you can explain because there are a lot of different ways you could approach the canon of Western philosophy, or any philosophy, really. How long were the episodes when you started?

• 32:42Speaker 03

  About 4,000 words long. I read slower back then, so it's about 30 minutes or so. It would vary back then a bit, but yeah.

• 32:51Tim Ferriss?

  And what were the first handful of episodes?

• 32:55Speaker 03

  The Pre-Socratics. The first episode, it's so hard to even listen to it. I've had to go back recently and like, listen.

• 33:02Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I get it.

• 33:03Speaker 03

  It's just an artist dilemma. Like you go, I mean, I'm not trying to talk down to anybody that enjoys those episodes still, but just from my perspective, you can imagine it's tough to watch yourself, you know, 12 years ago now, doing it for the first time publicly. The first episode was literally like I would, I just mentioned the out of Africa theory and how, oh yeah, people had a lot of free time back then and they had to, they talked a lot. So talking leads to philosophy and they kind of settled around the Ionian coast and the Italian coast. And this led to the Pre-Socratics. It's just like, most of the episodes are me just like telling stories from their life or something. It's brutal, but also beautiful in a way because it's where it had to start.

• 33:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. I mean, it's sort of striking, not to like over wield the comparisons here, but maybe like the story of the Pre-Socratics as you just described it, it's sort of like the origin of the podcast and the early episodes. You know what I mean?

• 33:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:54Tim Ferriss?

  Like figuring it out, finding the language.

• 33:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:57Tim Ferriss?

  Try to develop a waterfield for what this thing is, whatever this thing happens to be, whatever it will be.

• 34:02Speaker 03

  For whatever it's worth, people tell me that's one of the endearing things that they like about it. They like seeing somebody kind of build their craft over the years. It's just my audition tape is on camera for everybody to see. So I see it. That's cool though. I'll take it.

• 34:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. All right. So at this point, how many episodes have you done?

• 34:19Speaker 03

  225.

• 34:20Tim Ferriss?

  225. All right. What's the frequency?

• 34:23Speaker 03

  About once every two weeks now. There was a period there where I was doing like one a month and stuff like that, but now I've been working a lot more lately. So I've been really enjoying it.

• 34:37Tim Ferriss?

  Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. About three weeks ago, I found myself between 10,000 and 12,000 feet going over the continental divide, carrying tons of weight, and I needed all the help I could get. And in those circumstances, I relied on Momentous products every single day and every single night. Now, regular listeners probably know I've been taking Momentous products consistently and testing them, the entire spectrum of their products, for a long while now. But you may not know that I recently collaborated with them to put together my top picks. I always aim for a strong body and sharp mind. Of course, you need both, and neither is possible without quality sleep. So I designed my performance stack to check all three boxes: Creapure Creatine for muscular and cognitive support, Whey Protein

• 35:20Tim Ferriss?

  Isolate for muscle mass and recovery, and Magnesium 3-Enate for sleep. All Momentous products are NSF and INFORMS Sports Certified, which is professional athlete and Olympic-level testing. So, what's on the label is exactly what you're getting. Try it out for yourself and let me know what you think. So just head to livemomentous.com/tim, that's livemomentous.com/tim, or use code TIM at checkout for 35% off of your first subscription. That's livemomentous.com/tim. Momentus is M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S. livemomentous.com/tim, or code TIM for 35% off your first subscription.

• 36:03Tim Ferriss?

  All right, so if we flash forward and we look at this craft you've developed, the life you've built, what does the philosophies, this ecosystem, look like? You have Patreon, right? What are the different pieces of the puzzle as it stands currently?

• 36:21Speaker 03

  Do you mean from like a monetization?

• 36:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, from a business perspective.

• 36:24Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, I have Patreon. I have ads that I run now, and I have this book deal. That's going to be good for 2026, like kind of merging into a different market there. The pod, it is centered around the podcast. So, yeah, that's kind of the core.

• 36:39Tim Ferriss?

  And you mentioned you initially weren't planning on or pursuing advertising. Around what episode did you start doing advertising?

• 36:48Speaker 03

  I'm not sure. Around the episode that my son was coming into the world. So... And I prayed at an altar that people listening would be like sympathetic to the fact that I've been doing it for so long with no ads. And now I'm trying to, you live longer on this planet. You don't know when you're gonna die. I'm just, I'm trying to leave something for my kids if I kick the bucket one day. So

• 37:09Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, totally. All right.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  It's been fairly recent, though, to the thrust of your question. It's like, I don't know, maybe episode 180 or something like that.

• 37:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Okay. So there we go. The reason that I was hoping that the answer would be something like that is that you were able to hone the craft for a while, for a pretty good long while, before distracting yourself with the preoccupations, or maybe the easier path in my case, right? If I don't want to write, what do I want to do? I want to talk about, think about brainstorm marketing and these things because I find it much easier. But you, for a very good stretch of time, were able to focus on figuring it out, finding your footing, honing the craft. And for people who can make that work, I just want to say I recommend it very, very highly to have that type of focus. It just, it seems to make

• 38:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:02Tim Ferriss?

  a lot of difference.

• 38:04Speaker 03

  I mean, I've tried marketing things. One of the good things about podcasting is that people will reach out and they'll want to support, and they won't want to support financially, they'll support with their skill set, you know, like professional marketers or whatever will come along and like offer, I've been doing it 12 years, so I've done things like that. I am not an expert in this field. And I just feel that when it comes to content, like, the content is the number one focus for me. Like, if you do bad content, you may be able to market it amazingly, and then that'll be successful in some way. If you do amazing content that people don't want to live without, you can't keep it a secret. That's why I focused on that for so long. I would never put something out that isn't content that I hope people don't want to live without.

• 38:44Tim Ferriss?

  What are your most, some of your most popular episodes to date? Do any stand out?

• 38:49Speaker 03

  People really liked the Dostoevsky series that I just did.

• 38:51Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm. We were talking about this before we started recording, but so I was just trying to figure out, was Dave, you know, just the first person who introduced me to philosophy at this, it's possible, or did a post I put apparently on Twitter predate that, where I was listening to it, I think in my car, could have been in an Uber or something like that, but I took a photograph or a screenshot. And I do remember that really clearly. I think it was in my, I think it was in my car. And for that reason, I'm putting together my to-listen list and just using this question selfishly so I can take notes on what I should grab. So Dostoevsky.

• 39:30Speaker 03

  So from about last October, there's a new arc of the show that I'm doing that's on kind of religious phenomenology. It's about the limitations of philosophy. It's about phenomenology as a movement at the beginning of the 20th century and this bridge between philosophy and religion. Is religion just this superficial connection to a man like God in the sky? Or is a belief in God something much deeper than that, something much more embodied in a daily practice every day? It's been really fascinating for me and people have been really liking it for whatever it's worth. So if you're looking for a place to start, but I'll say this, if I'm ever recommending a place for people to start, I just ask them what they're into. So what are you interested in?

• 40:06Tim Ferriss?

  Well, let's see. I mean, I'll tell you, if I had a wish list in this, maybe this is the episode that I tracked down of yours. I'm not sure. I, in my reading of Seneca, realized, and look, this is going to be a very sloppy, simplified way of looking at things, but I was like, okay, the Stoics seem really good at self-regulation on their good days. But they don't seem great at, and it may be even antithetical to them, to maximize joy on some level. And in the Moral Letters to Lucilius, Seneca the Younger keeps referencing Epicurus. And there's a whole backstory that's pretty interesting as to why he was doing that. Was

• 40:49Tim Ferriss?

  a rhetorical device to be like, okay, okay, you guys like Epicurianism? Sure, I'll give you that. Great guy. Look at this amazing thing he said. Now let me lead into my argument and what I want to tell you. But my ability to track down writing, for a number of reasons, related to Epicurianism has been pretty limited. That would be on my wish list. I would say the Stoics are always good reminders, even though some people might feel like I just threw them under the bus, but I still remain avid fan of Stoicism. And then I would say...

• 41:23Tim Ferriss?

  And this is not going to be very helpful, perhaps, but I could turn this question around and maybe ask for your help in finding philosophical systems or philosophies, schools of philosophy, that are imminently practical, where it's like, okay, this is something I'm going through. For instance, right now, very challenging period with medical issues in my family. And as much as I enjoy getting into the rarefied air of deep conceptual philosophical discussions, I'm like, no, like, I'm stressed the fuck out and having trouble sleeping and like have anxious rumination. I would like some tools in addition to the ones I'm familiar with for delving into that, right? So that's a bit of a meandering answer.

• 42:07Speaker 03

  No, no, not at all. So, I mean, sorry to hear about your family. So you're talking about the Hellenistic Age, basically. You're talking about Epicureanism, you're talking about Stoicism. So there's two more there, skepticism and cynicism. Cynicism famously is the, the school of thought of Diogenes. I think all four of these, it's been said, represent some aspect of the character of Socrates just turned into a, its own system. So just, I mean, maybe fill that out might be a really cool thing to do because then you'll know the whole period, right? Practical stuff. Don't you do meditation a lot?

• 42:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I do. I do. Right now, I'm meditating twice a day.

• 42:39Speaker 03

  Okay. So is that practice framed in like a utilitarian way for you? Is it like, I'm doing it so that I can quell anxiety? How do you think of it?

• 42:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I would say there are a few different ways that I look at it. So shameless plug, I'll just mention it, because it is so good. There's an app called The Way. Henry Shookman is the teacher. It is Sambo Zen focused. I was introduced to Henry, actually had him on the podcast by Kevin Rose. Thank you, Kevin. And I would say that on one level, it is very utilitarian for me. If I use it to boot up in the morning, 10 minutes, that's it.

• 43:17Tim Ferriss?

  And I use it to wind down at night. If I have it as bookends on my day, I just find that my resting anxiety level is lower. So it's very, very practical in that way. And the exercises in the meditations are not explicitly geared to deal with anxiety, but they're more, I would say, training awareness of different types and contracting and expanding awareness in ways that allow you to not be compulsively in the washing machine of your own thoughts. You can step outside of the door of the washing machine and look at your thoughts. And then maybe you can step outside of the room and ask yourself, what the hell am I doing in the

• 44:00Tim Ferriss?

  in this room in the first place? Maybe I should go to a different room, et cetera, et cetera. So there's that. And then there are, I think, deeper, I don't want to say deeper, but other layers of payoff from the meditative practice that are not driven by that type of kind of symptom addressing, if that makes sense.

• 44:18Speaker 03

  No, for sure.

• 44:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 44:20Speaker 03

  I think philosophy is wonderful, obviously, but it's not a panacea. And it's certainly not something that I would recommend to everybody. And it's not something that solves. I just think that what you're talking about, about quelling anxiety, it's a trap, I think, to try to think a philosopher or a philosophy is going to fix that. I think it's more in a daily lived practice, like what you're talking about. And that lies outside the bounds of philosophy. There's a quote from a philosopher we were just doing an episode on, where he said, religion without philosophy is blind, and philosophy without religion is vacuous. It's like, you can just kind of make philosophy into like an intellectual exercise, but not be open to it in any way that really is transformative. So I can list you 10 different practical philosophers and their like

• 45:03Speaker 03

  systems and stuff like that, if you want to study them. But like, for me, philosophy is more A process, it's a verb, it's not a noun. It's like Simon Blackburn, famous philosopher, wrote a book called Think, and he describes philosophy as conceptual engineering.

• 45:17Tim Ferriss?

  That's cool.

• 45:18Speaker 03

  It's a great metaphor.

• 45:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 45:19Speaker 03

  If an engineer looks at a bridge and they know about the raw materials of the bridge, and they know how they connect to other parts of the bridge and everything. If you can show an engineer one bridge, a particular bridge, and he'll be like, well, it holds weight over here, but if we put weight over on this side, it's going to all start crumbling down. Philosophers do this with worldviews. The philosopher's the engineer, and the worldview is the bridge. Worldviews are made up of concepts that are linked together by assumptions, is how I think about it. A concept in philosophy, or whatever it's worth, is just the way we chop up and make sense of reality. So like, a person is a concept, a tree is a concept, democracy is a concept, love may be a concept. So our worldviews are piecing these things together based on assumptions, and philosophers are the people that are shaking up those rigid definitions that we have of these things

• 46:04Speaker 03

  and allowing us to see the world in a new way, and the systematized practice of doing that deliberately. So I do think, for somebody that's struggling emotionally, being able to be good at that skill of shaking up their static definitions of how things are in the world, and seeing it in a new conceptual tracing, that is valuable to that person, potentially. I just would never prescribe it as like the way, if you're feeling bad about some real issue in your life with your family, going through problems. For me, it's been really helpful, but I think it takes years to even get to the place where you can embody ideas without necessarily accepting them, where you can like really entertain and be open to these things in a way that they can change you. So anyway, I would just say, I think philosophy is limited here.

• 46:45Tim Ferriss?

  I think it's limited, but it's, for me, I would say, I could think of it as necessary but not sufficient, if that makes sense. And you mentioned years, but I will give an example of something that is not new to me, but revisiting it today in preparation for this conversation. This is a philosophical concept. I mean, you don't even really need the modifier philosophical if it complicates things for people listening, but amor fati.

• 47:14Tim Ferriss?

  So this is something that helped me over lunch while I was preparing for this because it helped me to reframe. Could you explain what this is for people who may not be familiar?

• 47:24Speaker 03

  Sure, yeah. I mean, it goes back probably before the Stoics, if we're being honest, but my favorite formulation of it is in Nietzsche, where he's talking about, I mean, amor fati translates into love of fate. It's the idea that so many traditions in the religious sectors or just in our, I mean, everyday lived experience are renunciative. They aim at denying some aspect of ourselves or of reality in an attempt to try to make it better. Nietzsche said amor fati is how he is going to live his life, I mean, henceforth. He decided, I mean, everything he is going to say yes to, he will be a yes-sayer is what he says. This is an affirmative stance towards reality, where even if things are bad or uncomfortable or horrible, we're going

• 48:07Speaker 03

  to affirm reality as it is and not idealize it into something that it's not. It's very common for people to do, even when they're not religious, is to think of reality as though it owes you something. But to affirm reality fully is to accept the good, the bad. It's not to rationalize about it and to try to make excuses for it, or frame your suffering in a way where it makes it go away. To truly affirm life and reality is just to be in it and to have life itself be enough, truly. So yeah, I mean, I think that really is the essence of amor fati for me.

• 48:41Tim Ferriss?

  And, I mean, the way that I self-help bastardize this for myself, just, it could be a book title or a chapter in one of my forthcoming books, but if you wanted to bastardize this into something very self-helpy, I mean, what I ended up doing is like, okay, how could I exaggerate this? To go beyond acceptance, if I actually had to find a way to praise, to view in a positive light, I had to. That was an obligation with everything that's going on right now. How would I do it? With the recognition that if you do that with everything, you end up running around with rose-colored glasses and you're gonna whack your head on a lot of corners. But in this particular case, like, okay, let me try really hard,

• 49:23Tim Ferriss?

  since I've been so focused on the things I can't control or aware, hyper-aware of them, and the challenges and the hardship, not just now, but that are gonna probably be sustained for quite a few years now, that sitting down and just asking myself... What are the silver linings here? If I had to view this through a positive lens, what would I see? Just doing that over lunch for 10 minutes, I'd probably drop my cortisol and resting heart rate tremendously. And that may not be maybe a Nietzsche's turning over in his grave with me just.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  No, not at all. No, I think that it's an extension of what we talked about with the meditation practice being utilitarian framed. And by the way, I don't think that should be a knock against it. Like, people get into meditation because it's going to help them with anxiety or sleep better or for X their productivity or something like that. But if that's what gets you to the deeper stages of that, of like your awareness, where it's no longer something you're doing for some utilitarian end. I mean, that's beautiful. There's a famous thing from the end of the tractatus by a philosopher named Wittgenstein, where he talks about how all these arguments in this book have led us to this point. And now you can essentially throw out the entire book because we've gotten to this new place. He's talking about like, he compares it to a ladder.

• 50:41Speaker 03

  It's like so often in life, we'll have a conversation about happiness, say. How do I become happy? What's the best way to be happy? And then you climb this ladder. And then at the end of getting to this new place, all these conversations get you to this new perspective in life. And then all the conversations about happiness just seem kind of pointless. You're just kind of naive almost. But it was only by having those conversations that got you to this next place anyway. And Wittgenstein talks about how you kick this ladder out from underneath you. You climb up the ladder, you use it, and then you kick it out from underneath you and you don't need it anymore. It's just, I think, the utilitarian approach to practice or to this, like a more fati thing. How else are you going to get to deeper levels of understanding of it? Or who's to even say that that's a deeper level of understanding?

• 51:25Speaker 03

  And maybe this is just the best practical way for you to be using that in your life. I would not knock on you at all for doing that.

• 51:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, thanks. I appreciate that.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  You have my acceptance there.

• 51:36Tim Ferriss?

  I would love to ask you, and maybe this will be helpful for people to hear. In my case, there are certain philosophies that for me are almost like operating systems. Stoicism would be one in some respects where it gives you recommendations or instructions for how you might reframe or respond in certain circumstances. And what I'm about to mention are not mutually exclusive, but there's also philosophy that if I read it, it just lets the snow globe settle. Right? It's intrinsically calming just in the process of reading. That could be, say, one of Seneca's letters. There's one that I just thought was so hilarious. I mean, it's kind of a microcosm of on anger where he's bitching and moaning about some

• 52:21Tim Ferriss?

  type of bathhouse and gym below where he's living and they're like sweaty and slapping things around and dropping weights and it's bugging the shit out of him. And it's just so hilarious and also humanizing to be like, oh yeah, okay, I'm not the only impatient asshole who's running around overreacting to these little things. And then he offers some suggestions, but there are other things that I find very calming in and of themselves to read. And I'm wondering if there are any philosophers, writers broadly speaking with a philosophical bent or philosophies that have that effect for you.

• 52:57Speaker 03

  I personally don't look to philosophy for a set of protocols to live by. I think it's reactive. I mean, the world is always in a state of becoming. It's always changing into the future. And I think I see a philosopher taking a snapshot in their work as a beautiful picture to look at, but not something that I really want to like live by at this point. I used to, by the way, when throughout my twenties, it helped me immensely, but just for whatever it's worth, at this point, this is just where I'm at. It's almost like painting is not the Mona Lisa. Painting is not Starry Night by Van Gogh. Painting is a verb. It's a process. For me, this is what philosophy is. It's the embodiment of a different conceptual tracing of the world.

• 53:37Tim Ferriss?

  So what does that look like? I guess if we were to just put it in philosophical tracing for conceptual tracing for dummies, right?

• 53:46Speaker 03

  Right.

• 53:46Tim Ferriss?

  What is that in your lived experience? What would maybe an example look like?

• 53:50Speaker 03

  Well, it's the iterative process of showing up every day for the show and reading a philosopher and truly trying to embody their work for a moment. But it's provisional. It's not something that I'm accepting. I'm not tacking it on to the way that I see the world. It is just almost method acting, a thinker in service to these other people that want to know about the thinker too. I mean, it really is a harmonious thing that's going on and it's fun. But yeah, I mean, I really do try to like entertain ideas without accepting them. And it's given me a lot of peace because I just realized like who I am is not one set of protocols. It's this weird mix of contradictions and I feel two ways simultaneously sometimes. And I'll take pieces from this thinker and that thinker and put them together.

• 54:34Speaker 03

  Just for me personally, that's more how I'm seeing philosophy. It's this exercise that I'm engaged in. The snow globe settles, to use your metaphor, by being engaged in that exercise more personally.

• 54:44Tim Ferriss?

  So if we're looking at Stephen West's version one, or maybe like version 3.5 in your twenties, when maybe you had a different lens on these things, were there particular philosophies or philosophers or writing that hopped out that we haven't touched on?

• 55:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, Nietzsche was huge for me early on in my life. Kierkegaard was very big after that because I realized in my early twenties, I mean, what kind of got me thinking about philosophy was The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris. I think at that time it was Letters to a Christian Nation. It's this whole like new atheism sort of thing that was going on at the time. I had never read any philosophy before. So I thought, I mean, these people showed me what was possible to like think about the world. And so, I mean, I come from that like new atheist beginning. I mean, I used to just argue with people on the internet incessantly about that kind of stuff.

• 55:42Tim Ferriss?

  That's what the internet's paid for.

• 55:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I was very young. So I remember for years, I just wrote off every religious argument as just nonsense, just like absolute. Just man in the sky stuff. And then I read Kirkergard and I just, I started thinking totally differently about the whole question about the language that people use to describe universal human experiences. I mean, Kirkergard talks about God and he is a Christian. He's describing a crisis in the church that's going on during his time. But I remember it being like, it just hit me like a ton of bricks one day. I'm like, oh, I listen to rap music and they use different words, but I can relate to it because I'm feeling what they're feeling. We're both human beings. I may not come from Inglewood or something like that, but I can understand what they're saying here. They're using different words.

• 56:24Speaker 03

  And when I approached Kirkergard like that and religious conversations more generally, it just, it totally rocked me. And then that, that led me to Simone Weil, who's been, you know, top five favorite philosophers ever for me. And yeah. Okay. That name you just gave, how do you spell the last name? W E I L. Okay. And how do you pronounce that? I don't even know. Weil. Weil. Simone Weil. And for whatever it's worth, it's in another language. I've definitely, I've definitely fucked that up at least a dozen times. I'm just a dumb American. It could be something totally different. You know, if we added up all of my mispronunciations on this podcast, I mean, it would, it would be the size of one of my phone books that I write.

• 57:00Speaker 03

  Dude, she is incredible because she just is living in this time in the beginning of the 20th century. She's very skeptical of Marxism and capitalism and fascism and all these things that are going on. She had the ability. She was smart. She went to school. She had the ability to stay and be a professor and just sit behind a desk and write for the rest of her life. She got out of her position at the university and went and worked in a factory voluntarily, just to see what it was like to be somebody working on the front lines, to try to understand it as much as she possibly could. She didn't want to live in theory. She didn't want to have some theoretical understanding of what it was like to be a factory worker. She wanted to be there. She just has this concept of attention, man. Her example that she writes in her journal is just like, when you're talking to somebody, you can approach that conversation and filter every bit of it through this idea that like,

• 57:45Speaker 03

  what use is this person serving to me? Everything that they say, if I'm looking for similarities, it's just so far as it's commensurate with the way that I already look at things. Yeah. What can this person do for me? That conversation's boring to me. It doesn't, or there's a way to not filter the person through all of your own agendas and projects, but just to see them as they are. It's like a self-emptying. It's like canonic. You just try to receive them on their own home ground as much as you possibly can. And it's a totally different framing and it literally changed my life when I first read about it. So that's something I would write down.

• 58:17Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, let's talk more about that, the self-emptying. Was it a particular phrasing or story that you read that hit you like a ton of bricks? Was it then trying to use it in your life? Can you say more about how it was impactful?

• 58:35Speaker 03

  Sure. It was not a special story that she told. Again, like most of her writing in particular, she never intended for it to be published. She just, it was just personal journals. But it hit me like a ton of bricks because I was realizing at that time that I had very narcissistic tendencies, as a lot of people do in the modern world. I just think when we don't have gods to worship and like external rituals to follow, you just end up worshiping at the altar of yourself oftentimes. And narcissism is like a default that you can sort of fall into if you're not careful about it or aware of it. So when she said this though, and I was just, oh my God, that's exactly what I'm doing. I mean, I was like 25 or something at the time. And then it really didn't hit me fully until I was like 32. Like just how much every encounter that I'm having is just framing people in the world

• 59:18Speaker 03

  in terms of what it can do for me, rather than for what purpose do I exist in this network around me? And it was incredible.

• 59:26Tim Ferriss?

  So maybe looking at, I don't know if it would be too presumptive of me to say a reaction to that, but can you speak to your decision, if it is a decision, to have as small a digital footprint as possible? Is that a fair question?

• 59:44Speaker 03

  It's fair. I think it's just a lack of talent. I think it's a, you know, I mean, generally speaking, that's, that's what's going on there. Nobody wants my footprints in their

• 59:53Tim Ferriss?

  There's gotta be more to it. There's gotta be more to it. Is it? Yeah. I mean, you could be doing choreographed dances on TikTok if you wanted.

• 1:00:01Speaker 03

  No, I couldn't. That's, that's where you're wrong, Tim. No. No, I mean, what do you like, I mean, people give me offers. I try to keep the grass cut, I guess. I mean, one element of it is I try to keep my life simple. I have my wife and kids. I have the show. And that's about it. I mean, I, I, I love it that way. I love being able to be fully present in these things and not have a, you know, 10 things going on in my head. And the people that support the show make it possible for me to live a life that simple and that focused. So I'm just super grateful.

• 1:00:34Tim Ferriss?

  What are things, if any, that you've trained yourself to categorically say no to or be wary of in service of simplicity? Do you have

• 1:00:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:45Tim Ferriss?

  Certain rules for yourself?

• 1:00:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, I really do sacrifice efficiency for meaning pretty often. Like, reading the four hour work week was transformative for me and it really put a fire underneath me to like, find a way to come up with protocols to live my days by and everything like that. And I've done so many different productivity type efficiency things over the years. The last few years, I've just, I'll find myself burning out if I separate myself from the task. If I do things for efficiency personally, and I also realize who I'm talking to here. I know the people that listen to this show are, I have so much respect for what you guys do and how you can be peak performers and all that stuff. It's just for me personally, I struggle with it. I, I, I

• 1:01:28Speaker 03

  struggle when I'm, I'm giving myself, okay, the next four hours and then I'm going to like meditate with baby Yoda on top of a mountain and then I'm going to like do a, me and my cat are going to

• 1:01:38Tim Ferriss?

  Have you been watching my nanny cam?

• 1:01:41Speaker 03

  And so, yeah, it's just I, I will sacrifice efficiency for meaning a lot of times and it doesn't make me the most productive. The way I justified to myself is like, it's a long play. I want to still be doing this for my family in 20 years. I want to still be writing and loving what I'm doing. So if I'm writing and I'm not feeling it, or I'm researching, I'm just not in it, then I will go and hang out with my family or I'll go and do something else, talk to my friend Dave. And so, yeah, that's a line that I set for myself, I guess.

• 1:02:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I suppose if I were to add something to, there are a number of things I would add, but if I were to update, which I don't think I'll do because I don't want to step on the butterfly, so to speak. I don't know how that first book really did what it did. I think it would be arrogant to me to think that I could even really deduce what happened there. But if I were to add a few things to that book, one of them would be the dangers of valuing your time very highly and making that an immovable pillar of your life. What I mean by that is,

• 1:02:43Tim Ferriss?

  On one level, to a certain degree, right? And the dose makes the poison. That's paracelsus, but you can apply it here, which is learning to value your time is a valuable skill that allows you to learn, especially in the early stages, what makes sense to delegate and what does not, right? What is worth doing versus what is not worth doing? And so you start to develop the ability to then later do things like 80/20 analysis and automation and all of the things that are in that book. However, if you land on some type of number, whether it's ill-defined or very precisely defined, for what you are worth, what your time is worth per hour,

• 1:03:27Tim Ferriss?

  you can end up feeling the agony of wasting time anytime a minute is sacrificed doing something that you don't think is high leverage. And that ends up being a very painful way to go through life. Yeah, I feel that. Yeah, so for me, it's like I have more and more, and I really like the way you phrased it, sort of sacrificed efficiency for meaning. But I would also say that when you start to focus on meaning, I think you get better at choosing the what. If effectiveness is the what of what do you do? So choosing what to do. And then efficiency is how well you do something. I think paradoxically, perhaps when you start to sacrifice efficiency for meaning,

• 1:04:12Tim Ferriss?

  you make better long-term choices, like you were saying, in service of the long game. Right. Right? And to play the long game, at least as far as I can tell, really well, you have to know what game you're playing. Right? And all of that requires a level of introspection that you can rob yourself of if you are. Trying to operate in the red zone at 500 miles an hour in the name of efficiency.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I'm not saying don't be efficient, just make it a second or third order priority, you know? And with as much work as you've done, learning efficiency techniques, I'd imagine you can't help but be efficient at a certain level when you do things. So it's just part of your embodied world.

• 1:04:53Tim Ferriss?

  I think there are like 10% of the things I do are default, hyper efficient. And then I think people would be disgusted and shocked if they were to.

• 1:05:01Speaker 03

  Well, you heard it here.

• 1:05:02Tim Ferriss?

  Have seen like the first half of my day to day, they'd be like, what is he doing? He looks like a Roomba with bad software. Like, what is he doing in his house? I have no idea what's happening right now.

• 1:05:10Speaker 03

  I asked the hard hitting question.

• 1:05:12Tim Ferriss?

  I know, I know. Didn't, didn't see this turn of events when I was prepping for this conversation. But I do think more and more, I mean, who knows? Maybe that's, maybe that's a book in the future where they take me too long to write. So I need, either need to get faster at writing or I need to find a better format. Maybe it's a podcast, just the long game. What does it mean to play the long game?

• 1:05:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Tim Ferriss?

  Because I think in a reactive, modern, digitally saturated environment, it's very easy to get pulled into short games that are not of your own designing.

• 1:05:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then to feel quasi alienated from everything you're doing, like you're looking at yourself from the outside or something. I mean, for, for me, this is what I struggle with, right?

• 1:05:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:55Speaker 03

  So, I mean, I, I don't struggle with it anymore, but I, I have to be conscious about this every day for that reason.

• 1:06:00Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm. So there are a couple of cues I have here related to exploratory bullets, things that we can dig into. And maybe we've already covered it, but at the risk of repetition, I have here the non-obvious way that engaging in philosophy helps us grow.

• 1:06:19Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:06:20Tim Ferriss?

  What is that?

• 1:06:21Speaker 03

  I just think, as I said before, philosophy always lives in the shadow of the thing that we give credit to. There's many examples of this, like, it's kind of related to a conversation of like, why would anybody even care about philosophy at all? I mean, I, it would definitely be something that I would think, we're already thinking about things the best we've ever thought about them before. Look at the sciences. Why do we need old men yelling at each other about unverifiable speculation every, like, why do you need philosophy? And what that point misses is that philosophy is how we got to the point where we're looking at the world in the way we do now. Some examples of this, I mean, Isaac Newton, big name in the sciences, apparently. His big book is called Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy, one of them. It has natural philosophy in the title.

• 1:07:06Speaker 03

  It's because the things he's talking about in that book, motion, optics, the relationship of particles, this was the domain of natural philosophy before Newton comes along and writes this landmark work and then it becomes a specialized field. I mean, another example, psychology isn't a specialized discipline until the end of the 19th century. Before that, questions like identity and how we behave around other people, these are questions in the philosophy of mind and ethics and epistemology, depending on what background you come from. One more example, Adam Smith, Scottish Enlightenment, wrote The Wealth of Nations. It's like a cornerstone of modern capitalist thought. But he wasn't like an economist at first. He was an ethical philosopher. He starts asking questions about what sort of lives do we want to guarantee for people? What is a good life?

• 1:07:51Speaker 03

  How do we treat other people? This is what then scales up into his conversations at the level of economics and then turns into capitalism. My point is that any point along the way here, somebody could come along and say, why do we need these philosophers abstracting about the individual human mind or something like that? Or, I mean, how to treat each other? We're already thinking about things the best we ever have. What I'm saying, this is the role of philosophy is to ask questions that seem a little bit wonky to us living during this moment, but they will become the best practices of tomorrow. And this will always be going on and it's still going on today. And it goes on in the lives of individuals and at the scale of the conversations we're trying to have better and better conversations.

• 1:08:31Tim Ferriss?

  So if we go and double click on better conversations, I mean, what strikes me, at least as one of the benefits I've derived from reading philosophical works and honestly, it could even be a novel with interesting questions, which is what I want to focus on. We have developed incredible technology. We have this fantastic framework, scientific method for principally not fooling ourselves, but testing hypotheses, right? Which may start as a question, but I don't find, and I'm happy to be disproven here, but that the scientific method itself helps people to generate better questions automatically.

• 1:09:15Tim Ferriss?

  And at least as an adjunct. That philosophy for me has been fertile ground for finding good questions.

• 1:09:25Speaker 03

  And by the way, that goes on in every one of these specialized disciplines. The PH and PhD stands for philosophy for a reason. I mean, the highest level of abstraction in any field is going to be philosophy. If you're somebody well educated in a field at the top of your field, in order to make progress in that field, you have to subvert the existing set of protocols and assumptions axiomatically that are going on in that field. To move the field forward, you have to be doing philosophy. And science is wonderful, but I mean, it is compartmentalized and specialized and technical. And I mean, all the things that it is when we're just talking about an experimental setting. I think you're right. Anybody at the top of these fields has to be doing philosophy. And that extends to asking good questions in our lives to try to come up with new ways of seeing things.

• 1:10:06Tim Ferriss?

  So I'm so curious, since you are hoping to do this 10, 20 years from now in some form or fashion, how do you see it adapting? That may not even be the right word, changing over time in terms of format. And there may not be a need to do that. And I feel like you, by choosing a very well-defined, narrow lane that had not been filled before, you actually have more existential health insurance for your podcast than most podcasts. By being that focused, I actually, I very firmly believe that.

• 1:10:47Tim Ferriss?

  That you have much more anti-fragility built into it for surviving in an audio format. Right? It's not the type of thing, especially given the duration that I feel would be forced into video for discovery. Maybe there are benefits to be had, but it can be an option and not an obligation. Perhaps for at least a period of time. How do you anticipate this could change over time? I mean, you mentioned the book projects. That's one way of kind of diversifying format, maybe opening new doors. But how are you thinking about playing the long game?

• 1:11:24Speaker 03

  I mean, I'm not restricting myself to a plan, certainly. I think I'm just going to continue with what got me to the dance. I mean, I genuinely have just been listening to people tell me what they want to hear about and showing up every day, I mean, completely iteratively, like just trying to do it the best I possibly can. That will change, but it won't be planned. I think that I'll just keep listening to the listeners and see what they want to do. Here's the heart of your question, maybe something you want. Like, I would like to write philosophical fiction at some point. I would like to not be like teaching philosophy forever. I would like to just incorporate philosophical ideas and maybe deliver it in a different way. That's like a like outside possibility.

• 1:12:04Tim Ferriss?

  I don't think so. I don't think so. I'll be, I'll be like the shout caster.

• 1:12:08Speaker 03

  Really?

• 1:12:08Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:12:08Speaker 03

  Really?

• 1:12:09Tim Ferriss?

  I don't think it's an outside.

• 1:12:10Speaker 03

  This is the moment.

• 1:12:10Tim Ferriss?

  I don't think it's a, yeah, we have it recorded. I don't think that's an outside possibility at all.

• 1:12:15Speaker 03

  Really? You, you, you think people would enjoy hearing about these philosophical ideas it delivered to them in fiction, as, as long as I'm a decent writer?

• 1:12:23Tim Ferriss?

  Especially if it's not banging them over the head, in the sense that if it's more of a Trojan horse and you are delivering, and this is not, this is a bit of a strained metaphor, but like delivering the medicine with some honey? Absolutely. I think people are drawn to it already. They just wouldn't necessarily describe it that way.

• 1:12:42Speaker 03

  I feel like I'm writing these episodes and it is a lot of writing. Like, I, the other day, started writing some fiction just for fun on the side. And I was like, wow, I'm doing the same thing that I do when I write the episodes. It's just like, not real. It's, it's interesting how the skills translate over. So, yeah, maybe, maybe someday.

• 1:12:57Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. I would, I would say I don't think that's an outside chance. Particularly, I mean, here's what I would say. My recommendation, if I could be so audacious to give you completely unsolicited advice, but in the world of publishing, I have a couple of rounds under the belt. I would say hope, even though it's not a strategy, but like, hope and plan based on the track record that you've produced so far, the market validation, that sounds so sterile and terrible, but that you've proven with what you've done, that your first book, particularly with your built-in audience, will do well. So then, as a thought exercise, what do you do once you have

• 1:13:39Tim Ferriss?

  bought yourself permission to do something that deviates from what you are known for?

• 1:13:46Tim Ferriss?

  Right. And then the answer might be fiction.

• 1:13:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:50Tim Ferriss?

  That has a lot of philosophy embedded. So I think that is a helpful hypothetical plan to think on, because otherwise what happens to a lot of folks is they have a book that is unexpectedly to them, although in retrospect, it could have been predicted, successful, which just means it buys you the right to have a second book. But because they feel pressure from an agent, a publisher, a family member, whatever it might be, to try to capitalize on the success, they end up doing version two of the same book, or they end up doing, in my case, the three hour work week, then the two and a half hour work week, and so on and so forth. And when you travel that path, you end up painting

• 1:14:35Tim Ferriss?

  yourself into a genre corner, which is the reason I did the four hour body after this, the four hour work week, because I knew I could always go back to the first thing. That's a two way door. In other words, if you have the first book that's a huge smash, you try the second book, which is off menu, but is really something you want to try, and doesn't work, you can always go back to the first.

• 1:14:56Speaker 03

  How do you think of the podcast here? Like Dostoevsky wrote books in installments. He would release them in papers. He got paid and, you know, he would release a couple chapters at a time or something like that. It was serialized.

• 1:15:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:15:07Speaker 03

  Much like podcasting. Do you see your ongoing podcast as like a serialized version of a book that you're just always writing and like maybe episode 200 through 250 as a book or?

• 1:15:18Tim Ferriss?

  I would say my goals and insecurities and fears vary too much, week to week, month to month, for me to spot. I'm sure there are three lines, but I wouldn't group it in that fashion. I view the podcast as my laboratory or my workshop, maybe both, where I can, much like I've seen comedians do, for instance, even on the podcast, I've had comedians who later I realize were testing material they were going to incorporate into their special, right? And I will kick things around that test the waters, see how.

• 1:16:03Tim Ferriss?

  My audience response to guests, see how guests respond to certain types of questions. And then I'm like, okay, I've got at this point, seven out of seven positive signals.

• 1:16:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:13Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. Maybe I turn that into a dedicated episode that's a solo episode. I see how that's received. Maybe I turn that into a blog post and I see how that's received. Knowing all the while that there is a, I think a significant risk to your identity to over relying on audience signal. I really think you can

• 1:16:34Speaker 03

  Get captured.

• 1:16:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you can get captured and shaped. You can turn it into a caricature of your greatest clips on YouTube. And God save you if that ends up happening. It's much harder to undo than it is to succumb to. So paying attention to all that still effectively what I'm doing and the, the way that I try to avoid that is effectively to say, all right, here are four or five things I want to do anyway. Now I just want to figure out which of these could be viable. I would be very happy to do any of these four. So I've decided that upfront so that I don't get oversteered by the audience. Now let me see what really resonates. We were talking about this a little earlier, but the personal being the most universal.

• 1:17:16Tim Ferriss?

  What is the thing inside me that also seems to strike a chord and resonate with at least some subset? And for me, I'm looking for amplitude of effect. It's like, I don't want a six out of 10 from 80% of my audience. I want a 10 out of 10 from like 20% of my audience. So that's how I think about it. But the podcast is really for me, helping me explore things I otherwise wouldn't explore, solve my own problems, frankly, get some inspiration when I feel like I need some inspiration. And that's more or less how I think of it.

• 1:17:54Speaker 03

  It's a very wise way to do it. It's very lived. It matches with your experience. Like you're, this becomes a forum for the stuff that you're interested in. And then like you're talking about a test, like a case study for whether you want to explore something deeper with your audience. It's, it's beautiful, man. Because you're not just planning episodes out into the future to say, no, this is what Tim Ferriss would do. You know, like you're, you're just living life and then it's cool. And I guess I'm here as one little, small part of that.

• 1:18:20Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know how small, man. I mean, I'll give you an example. So you're talking about fiction. Like, I have also had this be in my bonnet about fiction and wrote thirty thousand, forty thousand words of fiction about a year and a half ago, two years ago now, I guess. And it seems hypocritical of me to give you the unsolicited advice that I gave you while not revisiting my own kind of self-imposed limitations around it or procrastination. So who knows? I mean, maybe I'll look back and I'll be like, fuck, I accidentally called myself out. Shit, didn't see that coming. And my interactions with guests have had such a huge impact on my life.

• 1:19:02Tim Ferriss?

  It's impossible to overstate. I mean, enormous, gigantic. All right. This is one of, one of the rapid fire questions, but it doesn't need to be a fast answer. It's just intended to be something that's fun to play with. So the billboard question. If there was a billboard, metaphorically speaking, you could put a message on, a quote, a word, a question, an image, anything at all, just to convey it to mass numbers of people. What might you put on the billboard?

• 1:19:32Speaker 03

  Geez, man. This is a great question because it's like the inverse of me. Like, the, the idea that wisdom can be distilled down into a single quote or like an idea or something. I mean, this is kind of the antithesis of what I'm, like, it's a way of thinking wisdom. It's, it's not, it's not a particular idea. If I have to come up with one.

• 1:19:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, great question, great question for you.

• 1:19:53Speaker 03

  How about that, um, be the one that takes advice? How about that?

• 1:19:57Tim Ferriss?

  I like that.

• 1:19:58Speaker 03

  I don't give advice because if a person is asking for advice, I mean, typically they're not the person that really takes the advice, really. So it's kind of, it's almost always a waste of your time. But if you're the one that genuinely takes advice, and it's ironically me giving you advice to be the one that takes advice. But if you can do that, if you can manage that, then you won't need advice here in like six months. You'll be the one giving it, right? So maybe that's what I put on the billboard.

• 1:20:21Tim Ferriss?

  So someone sees that, they're like, you know what? I like the sound of that. I want to be someone who takes advice. How might that manifest? Like, how might they? Change how they relate to people or the world or otherwise. What might that look like?

• 1:20:34Speaker 03

  He's, I don't know, man, they'd have to like really pay attention to the advice that's being given to them. And that would maybe come from just reading the world around them a bit better. I think advice comes not just from deliberate, like a motivational video on YouTube, but just the world around you is trying to tell you stuff all the time if you're paying attention to it. So maybe, maybe that goes along with it. Just don't think of the world as just buildings and people walking around. You think of it as like, I mean, education, like truly try to take things from moments and be open to them. It's maybe an important point here for like philosophy. It's like, like we're talking about before, it can turn into just this broad theoretical exercise that doesn't really change you at all. And nobody really takes action. That's why I think

• 1:21:15Speaker 03

  any serious philosophy has to be coupled with openness and curiosity and somebody willing to let the ideas impact them. I just think education, advice giving, people often relegate it to like a room, a classroom with a teacher in front and there's desks and there's pencils and everything. But like, if you strip away all the rules there and like re-territorialize it, it is just, I mean, education is constant. It's constantly going on.

• 1:21:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I dig it. Okay. So let's say as part of that, people are listening and they're thinking to themselves, you know what? I want to try this philosophy thing that everybody's talking about.

• 1:21:51Speaker 03

  It's a hit with the kids.

• 1:21:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly. You know, Minecraft and philosophy, it's all these kids talk about these days. So how does someone, or what advice might you have for someone who wants to find the right book to further explore what they're interested in or might find interesting within the very broad field?

• 1:22:09Speaker 03

  So I used to give like overviews of philosophy and stuff like that. I don't do that anymore. Um, I just think the book that's best for you is the one that you're going to stick with. It's the one that's going to get you the value proposition of studying philosophy, which is the one that you're going to be the most interested in. So like, look into your heart, maybe go to the bathroom and like flip the lights on and off for a while and just stare at yourself in the mirror. And really, really think about what you're interested in. And then when you find it, go to, I would say the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. It's like Wikipedia on steroids. It's a free site and it has an entry for basically anything out there. It's certainly not like the gospel, like you shouldn't go there reading it and thinking you're an expert in the field, but. It is a step up from Wikipedia because it cites like academic sources. It's usually

• 1:22:54Speaker 03

  written by somebody from academia that has dedicated a good portion of their thought and life to this particular area. So it's a great place to start. That's what I would say. Start with a secondary source, meaning don't just go to Barnes and Noble, look at Being in Nothingness by Sartre on the, it's like 700 pages long and just pull it off and start trying to read it. It's just, you're, you're not going to get much out of it. It's a great, a classic way to just be bored, I guess. Like, like, why would you ever do that? There, there's so much context about these thinkers and why they're even interested in the questions that they are.

• 1:23:27Tim Ferriss?

  So when you say secondary source, what you mean by that is someone who is commenting on the work?

• 1:23:34Speaker 03

  Some expert that is trying to humanize this work, trying to make it available, that maybe dedicated their whole life to studying them, but they're talking about the work itself, giving you context, explaining the ideas, not in the language that a philosopher uses.

• 1:23:47Tim Ferriss?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:23:47Speaker 03

  I think that's massively helpful. And I don't know why anybody that's just starting out, which is what this example is for, would ever start with something other than a secondary source.

• 1:23:55Tim Ferriss?

  So I guess maybe an example of that for Stoicism would be certainly Ryan Holiday's work is right here, nearby, 30 minutes away or so.

• 1:24:02Speaker 03

  Nice.

• 1:24:02Tim Ferriss?

  Obstacles away and so on. Or on the, I think it's just called On the Good Life. William Irvine, I believe it is?

• 1:24:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:08Tim Ferriss?

  Could be getting that wrong, but something along those lines, which then comments on Epictetus and so on, all of these.

• 1:24:14Speaker 03

  Right. And after reading those books, those secondary sources, you read the originals and you get much more out of them because you know where they're coming from, right?

• 1:24:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. You can wade through all of the astronomy and cosmological arguments and, and not throw the book away in, in anger and confusion. Are there any really bizarre philosophers or philosophies, strange?

• 1:24:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:35Tim Ferriss?

  That, that you're like, kind of into it?

• 1:24:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:38Tim Ferriss?

  You know, like philosophy kink. Is there any like?

• 1:24:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's, there's people that are deliberately bizarre to try to invite people to do more philosophy and do it in new ways. So a great example of this is a guy named Gilles Deleuze, who actually just died in the 90s.

• 1:24:52Tim Ferriss?

  How do you spell the last name?

• 1:24:53Speaker 03

  D E L E U Z E. Got it. So, so he's a great example of somebody that his philosophy is an invitation. The only reason I use the word bizarre is because it would seem bizarre to somebody else that just doesn't really like thinking about philosophy or something. So, most philosophers throughout history, if we can paint them into a broad category, think of concepts, the ways we chop up and make sense of the word. Tree. In terms of nouns, they think of them in terms of like a thing that exists statically. But, I mean, Deleuze, to put this in extremely simple terms here, he just doesn't think anything has a fixed formal essence like that at all. Everything is constantly moving and changing. So, we're only setting ourselves up for like misunderstanding the world

• 1:25:35Speaker 03

  if we think about things in terms of fixed categories, snapshots of the world at all. So, because of this, he thinks of the world mostly in terms of verbs, you could say. I mean, this is again a big oversimplification of it, but like he doesn't even think in terms of concepts, he thinks in terms of machines. A tree is not a thing that exists out there in the woods. It is only a thing insofar as it connects to many other things that present a problem to us in some way for that tree. The tree is part of a process that's going on, an assemblage of things, a machine that is constantly moving and changing. And it can be used for a million different purposes by somebody, but the thing in itself doesn't really have a static fixed identity at all. I mean, when you ask for a bizarre example of a philosopher's work,

• 1:26:19Speaker 03

  that, you know, this is one that I love because it gets you to start thinking of reality in maybe entirely different ways. Like, what would reality be structured around adverbs, for example? It would just be the modulation of the way that things are arising or leaving. Quickly, cheaply. Exactly. Like, and so what would that look like? It wouldn't be a machine, it would be like a song or something, or a poem, or... I'm not even sure, but this is the point, this is philosophy right here. It's just like, how do we look at the same things through a different framing? And then get exciting new ways of looking at the world, new possibilities for us on the other side of it? So, Deleuze is perfect for that, I think.

• 1:26:54Tim Ferriss?

  Great, thank you. One of the big questions on your show, I believe, please fact check me brutally if need be, but is in essence, why do you believe what you believe? Right? Is that fair to say?

• 1:27:07Speaker 03

  Sure, yeah. I mean, certainly at the beginning of the show, yeah.

• 1:27:09Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So can you unpack that for us? How does someone begin to attempt to answer that? Or are there toolkits that you would recommend for someone who wants to try to engage with that question? Why do you believe what you believe? Why this question at all, I suppose, is where it starts.

• 1:27:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that was something towards the beginning of my show because I just find the question personally to be unanswerable, like older that I get. I don't think we're in the best place to know why we believe the stuff that we believe. We just come up with rational narratives after the fact that sound good to us, I think. That's more how I see it. But yeah, I mean, I'm telling you, if you want to be more self-aware of your beliefs, the key is to do this very philosophical exercise we've been talking about. Take a concept that is seemingly well-known, that everybody has thoughts on, and just shake it up. Love is one that I use on the show a lot because it's so common. Love, justice, freedom, these are things, like concepts that basically everybody has thoughts on. I mean, love, what's a common way of thinking about love? Love is a thing that happens to you. It's not a choice that I made.

• 1:28:14Speaker 03

  Like, I was just around this person and then I fell in love with them. That's how I go from this liking somebody to loving somebody. What is that transition? Well, it just happened to me. I fell in love. That's how it happened. Then somebody else can come along and say, no, love for me is a choice that I make. It's a set of conditions. I choose to love someone and it's when they meet these criteria. It's when they like make a certain amount, it's when they look a certain way. These are secondary things, but really it's that they provide some kind of emotional service for me. That's when I know I love someone, is when I, you know, my like Starbucks order can be messed up and I get a little testy when they don't put the extra shot inside of it. And so the person I love is going to be there for me and then submit to me and make me feel good about it. But then a philosopher might come along and just shake those things up. It's not something that happens to you.

• 1:28:59Speaker 03

  It's not a set of conditions. Love is something more unconditional, they might say. They might say love is a verb, not a noun. It is, is a commitment, an act of commitment. A little slice of the universe and a person that I'm going to affirm them exactly as they are. I'm not going to idealize them. I'm not going to demonize them. I'm not going to make excuses for them, rationalize them in some way. I'm just going to look at them and try to receive them on their own home ground. That this is the essence of love. Now, even if you disagree with that, that's just, first of all, that's one of thousands of different ways a philosopher might shake up love and try to get you to think about it in a new way. I mean, even if you disagree with that, you have to defend your position on what love is. You're already doing philosophy and it's valuable. It makes you have to come back to your core principles and define them and defend them in a way that's, I think, good for the world.

• 1:29:44Speaker 03

  And, yeah, I mean, there's also an outside chance you hear that from the philosopher and it changes the whole way you see every relationship in your life. I mean, this is why, like, you'll hear a philosopher talk about like the philosophy of language or something, they'll talk about like, what does it mean to mean something? Or something like that. And rightfully so, everybody looks at that and cringes and it's just like, why would anybody be thinking about that? But I just think to do it with these well-known concepts, to read the thinking of people that are trying to stir up these, these like rigid definitions and get you to see the world in the new conceptual tracing, massively valuable. I mean, people that send me emails will say they feel like they've lived 10 lifetimes and the amount of time they used to live one because, you know, with the love example,

• 1:30:27Speaker 03

  they might go through five relationships, get their heart broken five times before they think about love in this new way and try to create a new tracing of it. So, anyway, why we believe what we believe, I think, comes from just engaging in that process more.

• 1:30:40Tim Ferriss?

  Let's do a callback to the new atheists. Sam Harris, J. Dawkins, both tremendous writers.

• 1:30:48Speaker 03

  Fantastic.

• 1:30:49Tim Ferriss?

  So you used to yell at people on the internet.

• 1:30:52Speaker 03

  Hard to yell over the keyboard, but yeah, it was tight, very ferocious.

• 1:30:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, lots of aggressive typing. And now you're looking at, if I remember correctly, sort of the, maybe intersections or comparisons between philosophy and religion. Where do you personally sit with religion now?

• 1:31:12Speaker 03

  I'm not going to church every Sunday.

• 1:31:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:14Speaker 03

  To the spirit of your question, do I believe in? A god that is in the sky that has a moral dictate for me to follow that I'm going to get into the after. No, no, I don't. But I will say this, the older that I get, the more I realize that most of the people that I respect, talking about the, most of the high level theologians and philosophers that talk about these issues don't believe in a god like that either. This is almost like a dramatized version of a god that speaks to people when they're just being people. They got kids, they got a job to go to, they don't got time to sit around and read philosophy and religion all day long. Like you, you need a story that's going to relate to them and it guides them to wisdom that's written into it. I mean, I don't think that God needs to be anthropomorphic like that.

• 1:31:56Speaker 03

  I mean, much more in this religious phenomenology thing, it's been much more along the lines of like Aquinas, where he just believes God is being itself or somewhere along these lines. It's, I mean, obviously a very complicated conversation to try to put into a summary form here, but yeah, I am, I'm, I'm more and more interested with what.

• 1:32:12Tim Ferriss?

  How would you answer that question on a billboard?

• 1:32:14Speaker 03

  Right. One word, that's all you get. No, yeah, for sure. It's, it's tough, but yeah, I would say that I'm deeply fascinated in it and humble, like humbly reading these thinkers and genuinely opening myself to trying to understand what's, what's being said deeper. Like, and, and that's all I can do really, I think.

• 1:32:33Tim Ferriss?

  So I suppose if I were to improve upon my question or add a little more context, I suppose what I'm wondering, because I used to also be on, I would say, the militant atheist side of things. In part because of a friend of mine, very, very close friend, one of my closest friends, was sort of weaponized within a very militant church and during a very vulnerable time in his life. And so I took it upon myself to try to rescue him from that situation, did not work. But in the process of trying to arm myself with the right tools, I read all the books, right? And I was like, okay, I'm going to read Bertrand Russell, I'm going to read this, I'm going to read Doc, da, da, da, da.

• 1:33:11Tim Ferriss?

  I'm going to gather the Avengers of the atheist world, or the four horsemen of the atheist apocalypse, depending on who you ask, and I'm going to go in with all the arguments. And ultimately didn't really work. I also realized that religion for him at that point was actually a really important lifeline slash raft that he needed in a life of incredible instability at that point in time. It didn't end up pressing it. But then over time. Well, I don't want to make this like some TED Talk for me right now, but the question for you is, you know, I've softened around those edges a lot. And I'm wondering if

• 1:33:54Tim Ferriss?

  in your reading of philosophy, if you've come across writings from people who might be described as mystics, people who've had these direct experiences with different labels, revelatory experiences, divine experiences, whatever they might be, or who struggle to define something. And again, maybe they use terms that you've learned to see as symbolic, right? Much like the rap music, right? Or basically, you wouldn't use the same words, but you feel like you understand the intention behind them, where you're glancing across their descriptions of the numinous. And that's affected you in some way. That is what on

• 1:34:37Tim Ferriss?

  some levels happened to me through a few different channels.

• 1:34:40Speaker 03

  You've read the mystics?

• 1:34:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I do read a lot related to whether it's Sufism, or could be in the Christian traditions, for sure, could be any number. The team, so to speak, doesn't matter as much to me as clear, lucid description of what they feel was a direct encounter with something that is, I don't want to use this word, but it's as good as any right now, like divine, or

• 1:35:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:35:14Tim Ferriss?

  Both accessible and perhaps ubiquitous and everywhere while at the same time being or feeling hidden to most people, right? Something like that.

• 1:35:26Speaker 03

  It's not like you've argued a set of theoretical abstractions, come up with a philosophical system and arrived at the divine. It's like you strip away something. It's imminent. It's always sort of there, right? And various different types of self emptying, where just through a practice, you can feel communion with the stuff around you at a like a level that's just, it's fascinating to me, the limitations of philosophy there, where there are aspects of the human experience that cannot be put into abstractions. Yeah, it's dope, man. I'm super fascinated by it myself and excited to keep going deeper into these waters.

• 1:36:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, any particular Again, for lack of a better word, mystics who've grabbed your attention?

• 1:36:08Speaker 03

  Simone Weil is often described as a mystic, more of a mystic practitioner than she is a mystic. I mean, Julian of Norwich, there's multiple of these that are like, their stories are just fascinating. Dogen, I've only read his name, but he's a Zen.

• 1:36:23Tim Ferriss?

  Dogen.

• 1:36:24Speaker 03

  Dogen. So I don't know if he's a mystic, but he definitely is in this wheelhouse of people as a Zen practitioner that is saying.

• 1:36:31Tim Ferriss?

  He's a first cousin at least.

• 1:36:32Speaker 03

  Really?

• 1:36:33Tim Ferriss?

  To the mystics, I mean.

• 1:36:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, those are people that I find truly fascinating, yeah. And what I find also fascinating are people that are arriving at this kind of insight, but they're trying to not go into religious practice, like Camus is a guy that I'm doing on the podcast right now, I'm deep into his work. And he is just kicking, just kicking and screaming, it seems, in his work to not go religious because he's so skeptical of what it leads to, right? But like, he is so interested in a pre-theoretical, like justifying our behavior without justifying it with rational abstractions and just absurdism as lucid revolt against the absurd, a descriptive endeavor, not a normative one. He just, he's talking about it in very mystic sounding language, but then he's trying to do it within, not even the realm of philosophy.

• 1:37:19Speaker 03

  He rejects philosophers, famously said he's an artist and not a philosopher.

• 1:37:22Tim Ferriss?

  Made a tough assignment for himself.

• 1:37:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. He died in a car crash unexpectedly. I honestly stay up at night these days thinking about what his late work would have been like, like, how does he not eventually go more in the, in this like religious direction, a daily lived practice as being the most authentic way to get access to this stuff? Although he was very skeptical of deifying imminence, as he says, this, this thing that we're talking about, turning that into a god of itself. Anyway, he's fascinating to me.

• 1:37:51Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I look forward to more episodes.

• 1:37:53Speaker 03

  Definitely.

• 1:37:54Tim Ferriss?

  And Stephen, we covered a lot of ground. Is there anything else you'd like to say, anything we haven't covered, any closing comments, requests for my audience? Anything you'd like to point them to? Certainly, they can find you at philosophizethis.org on Patreon. They can find you very easily, philosophizethis on X, I am Stephen West, that's with a P H, Stephen West. YouTube, at philosophizethispodcast. Anything at all that you'd like to?

• 1:38:24Tim Ferriss?

  Say before we wind to a close?

• 1:38:26Speaker 03

  I guess I would just say, thank you for being patient with me and, you know, I get going in my head talking about philosophy. I don't get to have conversations this deep about philosophy with very many people. I'm mostly around my wife and kids who want nothing to do with those sorts of things. So, thank you for giving me a forum. And if I was a little too speedy talking through this stuff, I apologize, but just send me an email. If you have any further questions, anybody, thank you for you, man. Thank you for the sacrifice over the years for doing something when you could have just sat around and did nothing with your life. Like you, you did something and that sacrifice literally opened possibilities for me that land me here in this beautiful place. So, thank you very much.

• 1:39:07Tim Ferriss?

  I really appreciate that and I love doing it. I mean, this is how did I end up with this as a job, right?

• 1:39:13Speaker 03

  Definitely.

• 1:39:13Tim Ferriss?

  And I am very excited for more episodes. People, check out Philosophize This. It's so relatable. It is so easily digested. Give it a shot, you will not regret it. And I'm also very excited about your book Adventures. So, we may offline chat more about that.

• 1:39:32Speaker 03

  Definitely, yeah.

• 1:39:33Tim Ferriss?

  So, to be continued. And everybody listening, we will link to everything that we discussed in the show notes as per usual. tim.blog/podcast. If you search West, I think you may be the only West I've interviewed. So, Stephen West with a P H.

• 1:39:49Speaker 03

  I haven't gotten Kanye. Kanye hasn't been on this.

• 1:39:52Tim Ferriss?

  He's not returning my texts. I don't know, he's very unpredictable.

• 1:39:55Speaker 03

  Why did I even come?

• 1:39:58Tim Ferriss?

  Until next time, as always, everybody be just a bit kinder than is necessary, not only to others, but to yourself as well. If your compassion does not include yourself, it is incomplete, as Jack Kornfield would say. And also, as always, thanks for tuning in. See you next time.

• 1:40:16Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half-page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered, or have started exploring over that week. It's kinda like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric

• 1:41:00Tim Ferriss?

  things end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I share them with you. So, if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday, drop in your email, and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep, and heat is my personal nemesis. I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, pulling the back on, putting one leg on top, and repeating all of that ad nauseam. But now I am falling asleep in record time. Why? Because I'm using a

• 1:41:44Tim Ferriss?

  device that was recommended to me by friends called the Pod Cover by Eight Sleep. The Pod Cover fits on any mattress and allows you to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment, providing the optimal temperature that gets you the best night's sleep. With the Pod Cover's dual-zone temperature control, you and your partner can set your sides of the bed to as cool as 55 degrees, or as hot as 110 degrees. I think generally in my experience, my partners prefer the high side, and I like to sleep very, very cool. So, stop fighting, this helps. Based on your biometrics, environment, and sleep stages, the Pod Cover makes temperature adjustments throughout the night that limit wake-ups and increase your percentage of deep sleep. In addition to its best-in-class Temperature regulation, the Pod cover sensors also track your health and sleep

• 1:42:29Tim Ferriss?

  metrics without the need to use a wearable. Conquer this winter season with the best in sleep tech and sleep at your perfect temperature. Many of my listeners in colder areas, sometimes that's me, enjoy warming up their bed after a freezing day. And if you have a partner, great, you can split the zones and you can sleep at your own ideal temperatures. It's easy. So get your best night's sleep. Head to eightsleep.com/tim and use code TIM to get $350 off of the Pod 4 Ultra. They currently ship to the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Europe, and Australia. Many people wonder how I end up getting sponsors on this podcast. And first and foremost, I say no to 80% plus of the products and services that get pitched, but I always test

• 1:43:13Tim Ferriss?

  them. And I test things either personally, or if they make the first round of vetting, my team and many others will look at these things, then I test the few who make it myself, or I put them on social media at odd hours to get real feedback. How much would current users recommend a close friend use this service? I asked millions of you about Gusto on social media, and I've never seen such overwhelmingly positive responses. It was kind of bonkers, honestly, because I've done this dozens of times. And it makes sense. More than 400,000 small businesses already trust Gusto, and it's been named the number one payroll software by G2 for winter 2025. If you're a small business owner looking to simplify payroll

• 1:43:56Tim Ferriss?

  and HR tasks, because why would you want to spend more time on those things? Gusto could be the game changer that you need. Gusto is the all-in-one payroll, benefits, and HR platform designed specifically for small businesses. They automatically file federal, state, and local payroll taxes, handle W2s and 1099s, what a pain in the ass all those can be, and offers straightforward health benefits and 401k options for nearly any budget. With an intuitive interface and features like time tracking, onboarding tools, and direct access to certified HR experts, Gusto saves time and eliminates headaches so you can focus on what matters, which is growing your business, among other things. Now is the perfect time. To choose Gusto to take care of your team and stay compliant.

• 1:44:38Tim Ferriss?

  So go to gusto.com/tim to see why nine out of 10 Gusto customers recommend Gusto. Listeners get three months free once they run their first payroll. Again, that's G U S T O dot com slash Tim. Terms and conditions apply.