Ben Askren, UFC Fighter, and Martin Floreani, CEO of RokFin: From The Octagon to Bitcoin

Ben Askren is an olympic wrestler, and current UFC fighter with a 19-0 record in his MMA career. He is joined on the podcast with Martin Floreani, the founder and CEO of RokFin. In this conversation, Ben, Martin, and Anthony Pompliano discuss what it takes to be a UFC fighter, what drew Ben to Bitcoin and crypto, what the current issues with content platforms are today, how RokFin is attempting to solve some of those issues, and where Ben and Martin see crypto evolving in the future. -----Curious about Cryptocurrency but don’t know where to begin? Storm Play is a free and fun way to start earning in exchange for you time. Simply download, register and discover microtasks that meet your interests and be rewarded with Storm Bolts. These Bolts can then be converted and withdrawn into your favorite cryptocurrency, including Storm Token, Ethereum (ETH) and Bitcoin (BTC.). Earn cryptocurrency rewards by playing new games and trying out cool products! Download the app to start earning crypto here! https://bit.ly/30pSxh9 (Available for iOS and Android). -----If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by BlockWorks Group. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworksgroup.io

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to Off the Chain, simply the best podcast in crypto. Let's kick this thing off. Ben Askren is an Olympic wrestler and current UFC fighter with a 19-0 record in his MMA career. He is joined on the podcast by Martin Floreani, who is the founder and CEO of RokFin. In this conversation, we discuss what it takes to be a UFC fighter, what drew Ben to Bitcoin and crypto, what the current issues with content platforms are today, how RokFin is attempting to solve some of those issues, and where Ben and Martin see crypto evolving to in the future. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you do as well.

• 0:46Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Alright guys, bang bang. I've got Ben and Martin here. Super excited to go through this. I think that this will be one of those episodes where we get a view into a world outside of crypto. And then bring it back at the end. Thank you guys so much for taking the time to do this.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I appreciate it.

• 2:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Alright Ben, let's start with you. You've got nothing to do with crypto from the outside, but you're interested and excited. Maybe tell us a little bit about your background, and then we can get into some of the stuff you're doing today.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Sure. I grew up in Hartland, Wisconsin. I live five minutes down the road from where I grew up. Right now, I started wrestling when I was young. I developed a passion for it. I got better at it. I ended up going to wrestle at the University of Missouri where I won two national titles and two Hodges trophies. I went to the 2008 Olympics. I found my way into the sport of mixed martial arts and then I decided to come back home and my brother, I and my high school coach ended up starting Ask a Wrestling Academy, which we have three of those now. They're doing really well. And I'm still fighting mixed martial arts and doing a handful of other things. Podcasting and doing a vlog and staying generally very busy.

• 3:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. So I'm fascinated by the training that goes into competing in the UFC and mixed martial arts. Maybe give us a sense of just, what do you do in a typical day, right? How much training are you doing versus the podcasting, the wrestling academy, etc.?

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Sure. Well, I don't really know any other way. I mean, this is what I've been doing since I was 13, so I can't really think of it any other way. You know, one of the things as I get older, I realize my body can't handle the volume that it did when I was younger, you know, when I was 21, 22, 23. And I could just train and train and train. So now, I mean, I'm really, I do four days where I do two days, two days where I do one, and then I have one day off. But even on my on days, I mean, it's, you know, it's an hour to 90 minutes tops. I'm getting in, I'm getting out, and refining my skills, I'm getting in shape. Keeping myself healthy and that kind of thing. I mean, I've been building skills for the last 20 years, so I don't have to do a huge amount of skill development like I used to.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  So now it's just preparing myself for what I have to go execute on in the competition.

• 4:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. I played football in college and I used to tell people all the time wrestlers were the only dudes who, potentially, I would never admit it, but potentially could be tough.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Ah, that's funny.

• 4:20Anthony Pompliano?

  So, look, you, you obviously had this very storied career in, in college and then eventually went to Olympics as a, as a wrestler. And then when you transitioned to mixed martial arts, like, how big of a transition is that where you go from, you know, really wrestling and grappling and going to the ground to actually the potential of getting punched in the face and having to punch back and kind of the, the, the transition there?

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Well, for me, I, I'd have to say it was pretty simple. I mean, I've always liked, I mean, one of the things that drew me to wrestling over other sports in the beginning was just the combativeness of it, the hand to hand, the one on one. I, I loved that part of it. And so for me, it almost seemed like a natural progression. And frankly, some of the times I've got hit, hit hardest in my life is in wrestling, you know, you shoot and they shoot at the same time, your heads collide, or you shoot and they sprawl and you hit right in their hip bone. Those, those have been some of the biggest hits I've ever taken in my life. And so the, the transition for me was fairly seamless. Obviously, I had to be okay with learning new skills and, and diving in, and I did that. And it turned out really well. Obviously, I kind of transitioned seamlessly and I was, I was the Bellator

• 5:26Speaker 01

  champion, I believe 18 months into my fighting career. So, transitioned well.

• 5:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it, it, it's badass to be able to say that, frankly. So, you did the Bellator thing, right? And then you eventually ended up and you won your first fight in the UFC against Robbie Lawler. You know, what, what is that like in terms of getting into that octagon, just knowing that the crowd that's there and also it's just, you know, the kind of the streaming and the pay-per-view and all of that, and then winning? Did you feel different afterwards, you know, from going from Bellator to UFC? Or is it just like, look, man, I've been doing this my whole life. I'm just here to beat the dude in front of me and let's move on to the next thing?

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I would say more than that than anything. So, obviously, I was a champion of Bellator for three and a half years and then I had some contract negotiations that went south. And then actually, I signed a contract with a company called One Championship and I was exclusively in Asia for four and a half years. And then I, I said I would retire unless I, unless I got the opportunity to fight to prove I was the best in the world. And I was a part of the first ever mixed martial arts trade, which UFC traded Demetrius Johnson to One Championship for myself.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  And I decided to come out of retirement for the opportunity, which is the fight you're talking about against Robbie Lawler. And man, I think it's just like you were saying, I just gotta beat the guy in front of me. That's as simple as it is. You can't string two and three and four fights together. All you have to do is focus on what's in front of you. And that's the way to be most effective. So that's what I did. And now it felt, it felt normal. It felt like that's what I was supposed to do. It wasn't a shock. I knew I've had the skills for many, many years. I haven't had the opportunity. I mean, I was undefeated the whole time while I was in Bellator, won a championship, but I hadn't had the opportunity to fight the guys who other people would give me credit for beating, to show that I'm the best in the world.

• 7:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. And then you've got a fight coming up here in July. Maybe just give us some information on that, and so people can make sure they watch it.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am fighting a guy named George Masvidal. He's actually ranked one spot above me, although I don't know why, because I don't think he's better than me at all. So I'm fighting him on July 6th, which is roughly two and a half weeks away. And then after that, who knows, hopefully I can hop into a title fight or something like that.

• 7:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. You gonna win?

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do believe I'm gonna win.

• 7:53Anthony Pompliano?

  I'd be scared if you said that you didn't know. So I see all the time, too. Last thing on the wrestling side, you and Mike Novogratz. Novogratz is a big fan of yours. I think that it seems like one of the common links is the Beat the Streets effort. Maybe tell a little bit about that, how you and Mike got hooked up.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I actually wrestled in the first ever Beat the Streets Gala, which is, it's their major fundraiser every day. So what Beat the Streets does, they raise money for inner-city wrestling in New York City. They've started, I don't want to blow the numbers, but something like 50 high school programs and 40 middle school programs. They've gotten 5,000 new wrestlers, something to that effect. You know, it's really, really big numbers. So they're doing a great job. So I wrestled in the first ever Beat the Streets Gala in 2010, and just kind of kept in touch. Obviously, I, that was like, I haven't really wrestled since then.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  And obviously this opportunity, I don't know, Jesse Jansen, another guy who, he was an NCAA champ at Harvard, good friends with Novogratz and beat the streets, and I believe he's into crypto also. He, he reached out to me and said, would you wrestle Jordan Burrows? And it's like, man, I've wrestled nine years, but yeah, I don't see why not. It's a great cause. It's a great opponent. Let's go give it a shot. And, you know, it didn't turn out very well for me, but we sold out Madison Square Garden, the Hulu Theater. It was a great environment and we raised 1.3 million dollars for charity. So I think it was a success.

• 9:28Anthony Pompliano?

  It's amazing. It, it is, it's pretty incredible. Alright, so let's transition to the, the non-wrestling and MMA world. Like, you know, I think most people, when they think of you, there's like, look at this badass motherfucker who spends all day training to go beat people up, right? And then you're out there and you've got the podcast, you're all over Twitter, all this stuff. Like, what is, what's the desire or the, the interest in kind of things outside of the MMA world? And like, why spend so much time doing this other stuff?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  I don't know. I, I just gravitate towards stuff I'm interested in. You know, ever since I was young, I always thought it was so weird where people said like, you need to just sit in your room and focus. It's like, ah, I'm super busy. I don't want to do that. I, I'd rather keep myself occupied. I actually remember, Martin's on the other line, and I don't know if he remembers this, but I remember, I think it was 2007, I, Flow Sports had just begun, and, well, I don't even know if it was Flow Sports at that time, but it might have just been Flow Wrestling and Flow Track. And Martin was there the week before the NCAAs, and I was out playing disc golf barefoot, and he said something like, what are you doing? Why are you out playing? You, you could hurt yourself. And I was like, nah, I'm fine. I'm not gonna hurt myself. I'm like, what,

• 10:42Speaker 01

  what do you want me to do? Sit in my room and protect? I can't live in a bubble. I gotta go do stuff. And that's the way, what?

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Let me, I mean, you, you're in your barefoot, like, walking through the woods. I would just imagine, like, getting sliced up by a rock or something, or a, I don't know, a branch. I'm just like, why, why are you putting, doing this? But Ben doesn't, Ben doesn't care.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I, you can't live in a bubble. And that's why, you know, I find things I'm passionate about and it shouldn't, sometimes, sometimes I do say, shit, I'm too busy. And then it's like, okay, but what am I gonna give up? And then it's like, well, I really genuinely enjoy everything I'm doing and...

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Uh, so I, it's hard for me to give anything up. So yeah, I, like I said, I'm, I'm involved in a lot of ventures, but I'm kind of really interested and excited about everything I'm doing.

• 11:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Um, so before we get to RokFin and, and kind of what you're doing on the, on the content platform there, I gotta ask about the, uh, the, the Twitter trolls. Cause uh, you, you are um, becoming one of my favorite guys on Twitter because I, I see him coming at you and, and usually it's not crypto related. It's usually like uh, MMA or UFC stuff. Uh.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Every once in, every once in a while it's crypto related because listen, you can't post anything Bitcoin or Litecoin or anything related. Without a handful of dipshit saying, it's going to zero. You're an idiot. And then, you know, it's like, oh my God, you guys are so dumb. So you got, you gotta shoot back sometimes.

• 12:03Anthony Pompliano?

  I, I, I love it because uh, but most of the guys and the girls in the crypto are uh, you know, they got like jobs in the crypto industry. So they gotta be kind of politically correct, et cetera. But uh, but whether it's you, Russell O'Conne, you know, all these athletes, they just come in real hot. And you of all people are, are, are holding up the bat. So it's, it's pretty fun to watch, uh, watch the kind of the crypto trolls, um, you know, get, get a little taste of their own medicine.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And, and listen, crypto is about as volatile as it gets. And I mean, I'm not, I'm not going and investing a hundred percent of my assets in crypto. Obviously that, that would, that would be a scary, scary, scary ride. But I, I have significant investments and I also understand it's going to go up and down. And so I do, I, I do this thing where I mess with my wife. Whenever, whenever it starts going up, I tell her and, and she gets annoyed by it. I'm like, hey, we just made seven grand today, you know? And then uh, she'd be like, well, we didn't really make it because you're not gonna trade it in. I'm like, yeah, you, you're right. I'm not. And then, you know, obviously the next day it'll, it'll lose eight thousand dollars and I, I won't say anything to her. And then the day after that, it'll make go four thousand dollars. I'll say, hey, we spent four thousand dollars today.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Just to antagonize her, I only tell her about the good and never about the bad. And it's really funny because she knows, you know, she understands that it goes up and down. But I only tell her about the ups. So it really bothers her.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like the, uh, kind of, kind of like what you do on Twitter. Why am I going to celebrate when it's going down? I'm going to tell you guys Bitcoin is going to 10,000 and when it drops back from nine to eight in a day. I'm not going to tell you about that.

• 13:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Look, it's positivity is the way of the world, right? I, I joke, I'm in the, uh, my favorite things that people say on Twitter are definitely, uh, one Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin because that just pisses the trolls off. Uh, and then the other one is.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Makes them so mad.

• 13:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. The other one is, uh, you didn't lose the money if you never sold at a loss.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Right. Uh, all right. So how do you and Martin know each other? How did you guys get hooked up?

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, we met, Martin started Flow Wrestling and I, maybe it might have been 2006, but it might have been 2007. Uh, and I was when I was a senior in college and we, we kind of just hit it off. I don't know. We just saw eye to eye on a lot of things and, um, and then obviously he, you know, he followed me around through the Olympics because that was, you know, one of the main stories. And we just developed a friendship of visiting Austin a handful of times and working with them. And, um, yeah, I guess just through all those avenues. And then, um, you know, when he left Flow Sports in 2018 and he started, he said, started, decided to start his own thing, uh, I saw the vision and it was, uh, I was really excited about it.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. I would say like the one thing that gravitated, uh, us together is it seems like Ben's always on the bleeding edge. And you can kind of see it in his wrestling or in his fighting. He's really, he's evolving, he's innovating. And so, you know, when we first came on the scene for, at Flow Sports, we were doing something completely different, right? Um, everything was TV based and we decided, no, uh, TV is missing it. They're a mile wide and inch deep and they don't really align with people's passions. People's passions are an inch wide. They go a mile deep. And when you can align with people's passions, you drive a much higher lifetime value per subscriber, which makes an economic model actually work around digital content.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  And so I was just the exact opposite approach of, of what the industry was doing. And, um, and I said, you know what? They're missing it and our opportunity is in sports. Um, right now we're all not, all the, uh, live rights aren't locked up. And so. We went heavy into wrestling. I went into wrestling too, just because I loved wrestling. And so that's where I really saw a lot of opportunity. I wrestled in college, nowhere near the success of Ben, of course. But I loved it. I thought it was the most exciting sport. And so from there, it just seemed like Ben was just really on the same page of exactly what we were doing. And he's, he's an early innovator. He's like an early adopter. He, he knows when things, um, and maybe, maybe

• 16:06Speaker 02

  he just knows it in his gut, but he senses when things, um, need to be transformed. And, and if there's a platform that does it, then he kind of, he kind of gravitates towards it. So that's what he did with Flow Sports. And, and then after, um, um, when I was done with Flow Sports, uh, you know, it was natural that as I was going through, uh, RokFin, I was bouncing it off of Ben and just kind of seeing where his head was at, getting his take. And, uh, and so, um, he's been, he's been on the platform since the start. So it's been good, uh, good to have him there.

• 16:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's awesome. So, so maybe give us a quick overview of like exactly what RokFin is. Um, and then we can talk about how Ben, as a content creator, um, you know, why, why you kind of see the benefit in it? And how you're using the platform?

• 16:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, you know, first off, the mission behind RokFin is to be the world's best platform for content creators to monetize their content. Um, and it really started, it starts actually from a problem, right? Like so digital networks, there's something wrong with them, right? Uh, digital platforms have done great with digital networks. Um, they've, they've accrued an immense amount of wealth over the last 20 years. Any digital platforms that's owned a successful digital network, um, their stockholders have done great. And customers have done really good, but the content creators on them haven't participated in that upside. You know, a clear example is when you look at like a YouTube, right? YouTube, um,

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Sells for 1.6 billion dollars to Google with very little money. They're selling for their network and what makes up their network is the content creators. But the content creators don't participate, don't participate in that transaction at all. Right? So they sell to Google for 1.6 billion. Same thing with Instagram. All the content creators on Instagram, they sell to Facebook for a billion. They don't participate in that network. Um, and if it stopped there, maybe it would be acceptable, but actually gets worse. As those networks grow, they get more and more powerful. The content creators on them that have helped build them. Now let's remind that those networks don't exist with actual, without the content creators.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  The content creators on them get more and more leveraged because they're being commoditized by the digital platform. Digital platform says, hey, if you don't want to participate on this, we got 990 other people that will participate. And don't you want to stay connected to the fans? Don't you want to stay connected to new fans? Don't you want to be relevant? And all this wow, the content creator is like, well, I've helped build this network and now I'm getting squeezed by them. Right? And so, um, so we've used blockchain to solve for this. On RokFin, content creators receive the full value of the network. And when they're able to do that through the ray token. And frankly, you know, I'm kind of late to the blockchain, uh, um, the blockchain world.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  I, I only really started doing this in 20, started to understand and look and, and, and research blockchain in 2016, 2017. But when we started RokFin, you know, my thought was if we don't have to use blockchain, let's not use it. But it just so happens blockchain is the only technology that solves this problem. And that's why we use it.

• 19:18Anthony Pompliano?

  So explain that, like why, how did you guys come to the conclusion it's the only technology?

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Well, because, uh, right now, content, um, because there's a cooperative game problem, right? So, um, and there's an asymmetry of information, right? So digital platforms, as they scale, they have much more, uh, they have a much bigger network. The reason they're able to do that with content creators is because, uh, because they own the, the network. When YouTube, when Google does its financing calls, they don't report on YouTube. Right? They don't want to tell all the different finances on YouTube because then people can start to maybe start to figure out what's actually going on there. How much value is actually being accrued by this? So they obfuscate the data.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  They don't let content creators know what, how their content affects the lifetime value of the customers on the platform. And that's the real game. That's the heart of the issue. And so what we do with the Ray ecosystem in RokFin is RokFin is in Delaware, Seaport. It plugs into the Ray ecosystem, which is an ERC 20 token. And we publish all of the results. And so as, as customers come on, they pay a simple nine dollars and 99 cents with their credit card to access. What happens in the background is we take nine dollars and 99 cents worth of Ray. We burn that Ray to transmit value to the network and it creates a utility. And every content creator can see that we are burning Ray.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  And then as a certain amount of work is being done on the platform, the Ray, the, the Ray ecosystem minces 10,000 Ray and distributes based on who provided the value to the ecosystem. And value in a subscription business is customer acquisition and customer retention. So what, what content creators, what, what content has helped either acquire customers or retain customers? And so ultimately this creates is that RokFin needs Ray to just continue to distribute the content that is on its platform. And so it has this inherent utility for the system that we need Ray. So as more creators, as more creators come on, they bring on more customers. All of a sudden our appetite for Ray grows.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  We need more Ray so that we can burn more Ray to continue to distribute people's content. And so that, as that grows, the demand for Ray goes, grows as well. Got it. And so Ben, talk a little bit about maybe like you're creating this content.

• 21:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Pretty much put anywhere in the world. Why uh why go put it on the RokFin uh platform like what's the benefit to you?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Well, I believe in Martin. I guess I guess that's first and foremost. Um, no, I I see obviously I see the flaws in I see the flaws in YouTube or or some of the obviously YouTube is the number one uh platform right now. I see the flaws in it. I see the issues, obviously, we see and it's becoming more and more evident and that's just people being demonetized, people being deplatformed. And they just have the ability to to do that. Now, obviously, the RokFin platform, um, that that that stuff's not gonna take place and um, so when I I decided to start putting stuff up, so I I have both an MMA podcast and a vlog on the RokFin channel uh as well as some wrestling technique. Uh it was just obvious and I, you know, I've seen Martin build

• 22:35Speaker 01

  flow flow sports from uh uh him and his brother in a van to a 300 employee company. So I I've seen him do it once before. I don't see any reason why he can't do it again. And, you know, this problem and Martin outlined it, but like Joe Rogan, obviously, one of my favorite podcasters. I I gotta get in his brain because he has discussed this issue no less than seven times. And I don't listen to all of his I don't listen to all of his podcasts, just the ones that I find interesting, but it comes up very frequently that you know, it could be with iTunes, right? Uh another network that essentially has a monopoly on what they do. It could be on YouTube

• 23:14Speaker 01

  that they have so much power over what they decide. I mean, if tomorrow YouTube says, hey, everybody that we're paying, we're paying you half. You're gonna get half. Deal with it. Tough shit. Then they're gonna, you know, what is that? What is a content creator gonna do? They have no power. YouTube's just too big at this point for those individual content creators to say anything about it. And obviously, it's got much worse than half. It's a lot, you know, handful of people have been demonetized recently over really nebulous claims.

• 23:43Anthony Pompliano?

  A- a- absolutely. And part of it too, I guess, is uh, yeah, so so one of my favorite Joe Rogan episodes actually is when he brought, uh, I think it's Tim Poole, uh, Jack Dorsey and

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Oh, that was so fantastic.

• 23:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, and Jack, to his credit, look, Jack was answering questions, but he also brought like the woman, and I forget her name, but she's like in charge of the policy.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:07Anthony Pompliano?

  You know, when you're listening to it, you go into it and you're like, man, Tim Poole is gonna just, you know, wipe the floor with these folks because there's just no right answer. But when you hear it, like, they are trying to be thoughtful in many cases, but the problem is, there's no right answer. Right? And so you're gonna piss somebody off. And what ends up happening is, the second that, whether it's Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc., gets into the it's not a censorship game, right? I think what they look at it as is they're like policing the platform. It just happens they end up censoring people as like an output. It's just a slippery slope. Because once you start, then now you're the babysitter, right? And people come to you all the time and complain about, I don't like their views, they're being, you know, stupid, whatever.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think a big part of the problem there with Twitter, though, is that and all these digital networks, is in the beginning, when they don't have any leverage, and the network is just going, they act like angels. There's friction. There's zero friction to join the platform, there's zero friction to stay on the platform. And then all of a sudden, once it becomes in their financial interest, and once it becomes in their best interest, they all of a sudden start to change the rules, and start to leverage things. And they start to say, you know, well, we wanna avoid, we're gonna change the algorithms, or we're gonna change the rules here, for whatever political reasons, or for other dynamics.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  And that wasn't there in the beginning, and it all kind of goes back to that creator's dilemma. And I think it's what's frustrating for content creators who have helped build that network. You know, that network doesn't exist without the content creators, right? And yes, the digital platform's a part of building that network, but the content creators were a key component to that. What's frustrating, and sometimes they've changed their whole livelihood to, you know, to do that, right? And so, what's frustrating for them is that they didn't own a part of the network. They didn't get to participate in that network. And so... A key differentiator for something like Ray, so a lot of people ask me, why do you, why do you use Ray? Why don't you just, um, why don't you just pay in cash?

• 26:13Speaker 02

  And the, the, a key, there's two reasons why. Well, first is we reward in Ray to reward for the value contributed to the network. And when you look at networks, in the early days of the network, the first hundred customers, the first thousand, the first 10,000 customers are so much more valuable than the customers at one million when you get the next hundred customers or you get the next thousand customers already after you have a, a million customers. So we reward in Ray so that, that the content creators that have helped build the network get to actually participate in the full value that they've contributed. And then the second part, why we don't pay in cash is because if you pay in cash, the content creators cashed out. It's, it's implicit in the actual meaning.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  When you pay in cash, the content creators cashed out, they can't stay connected to the network um, and, and, um, and be a part of its growth. They just, they're done. And so those are the two reasons why. And we think that, yeah, maybe in the future, um, RokFin could potentially do the stuff that YouTube does, but it's going, it would be really hard, it would be really bad for us. People would know their true value on the network and that holds us to a lot more accountability. There's other digital platforms that could hook into the Ray ecosystem so that can compete on a fair playing field. So it really a lot, it really changes the whole chessboard, the whole dynamic that makes digital platforms much more accountable to content creators.

• 27:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. What else, so you got Ben on the platform, what are, what are some of the other content creators that are on the platform?

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, we got a really strong MMA vertical, um, within the, within the platform. We have, uh, Chael Sonnen, who just recently retired from, uh, MMA. We got Adam Hunter, we got a whole slew of comedians. Um, uh, our comedian vertical is really strong and a couple of, uh, big announcements on the way as well on that front. So right now, the two verticals, we're just in alpha, we've been around for, uh, you know, just over 60 days. Um, and, um, and the two verticals that are, are starting are, is around MMA and comedy.

• 28:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Every MMA, every MMA fighter I know thinks that they're a comedian, so there's, uh, there's a lot of overlap there.

• 28:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Cool. So, so, uh, Ben, what, um, what's kind of outside of RokFin? What, uh, what else in crypto's got your attention right now?

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Uh, well, obviously I'm a big supporter of Litecoin and again, you know, I don't put myself out there as an expert. I'll say one of my good friends from college, he was who got me into crypto. And, um, you know, he, he, I was, he's a Bitcoin guy first, Litecoin guy second, then he, you know, he's into a handful of other businesses as well, but it's just, uh, I, I love anything that gives you more freedom. And that's what, what cryptos are gonna do. That's what Bitcoin and Litecoin do. They give you more freedom. Uh, they take us off fiat currency, whether it's the United States government or anywhere else. And, you know, a lot of people in the United States, they're, they're, I mean, there's a couple of issues, especially with people in the United States. They don't,

• 29:11Speaker 01

  number one, they don't see, um, they haven't seen a bank failure in a, in a very long time, or a hyperinflation, whereas if you go, if you go all across the world, i- it's been, uh, many, many hyperinflations or bank failures in the last, uh, in the last 20 years. And then also, if you, if you look at some of the, especially in Southeast Asia, where I traveled extensively from my fighting career, um, I mean, there's a lot of parts of some of those countries that are unbanked. Literally, they don't have access to a bank, but almost everyone has access to a cellphone network and essentially, uh, maybe it's not super convenient right now, but I would say within a couple of years, it's gonna be super convenient for anyone with a cellphone network

• 29:55Speaker 01

  to have some type of crypto wallet on their phone and make purchases. So I think, you know, getting those unbanked people onto a crypto network can be really, really simple and pivotal towards, uh, towards the future.

• 30:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Makes, makes it sound like, uh, you sound like a Bitcoin expert to me.

• 30:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Ha! Martin, what's, uh, what's next for RokFin as you guys gotta go out from, uh, day 60 or so out, you know, over the next 12, 24 months?

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. So one thing we didn't do is, is we didn't do an ICO. We didn't know Founder's Reward. We started very much like, uh, very much like the Bitcoin network. It'll only be 34 minted, 34 million rate token ever minted, we burn. So, you know, we do a traditional fundraising approach to fund our operations and, um, and, and we think that's the right approach. We're not... I really, I don't like ICOs. I don't, I don't think they actually align interests from the entrepreneur to the, to the content creator in our case, to the user. We, we just, we, we don't think that they're effective.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  I've raised plenty of money at Flow Sports and I think that process is good. It holds everybody to account. And so we'll do a proper seed round here in the back half of 2019 that we're, we're excited about. And then we're, we're looking to expand and get out of alpha phase. We'll be opening up our platform to all content creators. Right now, we've just kept it to a few and we're working through that, through the alpha phase. Once we open up to, to the, the whole, we expect a lot more growth and so we want to be prepared for that aggressive growth.

• 31:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Makes, makes sense. And then as, as I usually wrap these up, I ask rapid fire questions. But since there's two of you, I'll give you each individual ones. Ben, in your opinion, what's the most important company in crypto other than RokFin?

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Um, shoot, I don't know. Cause I, you would say obviously Bitcoin and Litecoin are companies. I have, I have no idea. You tell me, tell me.

• 32:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, you could say Bitcoin. That, that's what I would say. It's not.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  But that's not a company, that's not a company.

• 32:06Anthony Pompliano?

  No, it's not a company, but it's a, it's an organization just highly decentralized.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Ah, well, see, now you're asking trick questions.

• 32:15Anthony Pompliano?

  You, you're supposed to be smart. You, you can answer however you want. It's your podcast. Whatever you want.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  I, I would say, I would say, you know, I, I think it's pretty well consensus among most people that Bitcoin will be kind of the number one store of value on the crypto network for, for eternity.

• 32:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I tend to agree. Martin, what's the one regulation you would change or improve if you could?

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Uh, well.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  I would say, first off, clarity around regulations would be the first thing. You know, I'll tell you, when we first started this, that was a key anxiety. I mean, we went out, spent a lot of money to get a legal memo to really show that we're really poking through and through. But that anxiety, that friction can really probably scare away innovation within the space. So I think we've got to have clarity to allow, to let people feel at ease that this is the right way. Let investors know that, yeah, there is, there is a process, there is a great utility for, for this technology, and there's a way you can operate with it and still be compliant, right? So that's first and foremost.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  If there's technology, I'd say like, you know, another one that comes to my mind is, is putting some people's feet to the fire in terms of when they have to become decentralized. I mean, you get this Libra paper that, or this Libra coin that Facebook just announced, and you just start peeling back the onion, and it's like, well, it's totally centralized. We don't even necessarily know if there's a blockchain involved, and they do some hand waving that says, oh yeah, it will get decentralized, but it's like, when's the last time Facebook has, has followed through on all the promises they make around other things, around privacy? They'll often do this hand waving, but when it's in their best financial interest, they just keep doing what they want to do. So, you know, if there was some, if there was some timeframe that was reasonable, that

• 34:10Speaker 02

  that projects could start out centralized, but then start to move to decentralization, and then there needs to be some proof that it is truly decentralized, I think, wouldn't be a bad thing either for the space.

• 34:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it, makes sense to me. Ben, most, most controversial thought you have in your whole life?

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Oh, this is fun. Talent doesn't exist. That's an easy one.

• 34:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Talent doesn't exist. All right, explain that.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  It don't, don't even get me started. It doesn't exist. You don't have time, and you don't have the right arguments. It doesn't exist, in no, in no way, shape, or form. And there's, there's, there's never been a scientific study that proves it does.

• 34:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Tom, do you believe in talent? So what I'm assuming when you say talent doesn't exist, the argument is that hard work develops talent? Is that, is that basically the argument?

• 34:55Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, explain.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Not, not, not really for me. I would say that... There's never been a study that has proved that high level success in anything complex comes from anything innate. And I don't believe there will ever be a study that can prove that. Now, I mean, maybe if you're say a very simplistic task, say being a center in the NBA. Obviously, there's a prerequisite, which is being probably 6'11" or above. If you are not 6'11" or above, you cannot be in that pool of people who can do that thing, right? There's very specific things like that. Yup. But say, if you're gonna win a wrestling match, or if you're gonna start a business, there's just a myriad of characteristics. There's hundreds of characteristics that could make you successful at that one endeavor.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  And there is no, there's no, you need A, B, C, D, and E. Now, you could have A, Z, F, 1, 2, and 4, right? You could have any mix of these things that's gonna make you successful. And so, you know, a lot of people, they, they like to say talent exists because then it lets them off the hook for them not being successful. And because it's also a very, very easy explanation, but it's, it's essentially kind of a hindsight bias. Because people would look at me and say, "Oh, my God, he's talented at wrestling. He, you know, he did this and that, and he created this technique and that technique. He's so talented." It's like, fuck, no one was saying I was talented when I was 13 and getting my ass kicked all over the place. Yup. No one was saying I was talented when I was 16. And I, listen, I'm not new to wrestling at 16. When I'm 16, I've been wrestling for a decade, and I go 0-2 at the national tournament, don't win a match.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  No one's saying I'm talented at that point in time. And I think that's what happens a lot is people, it, it's a hindsight bias. They see someone have success, and then they try to attribute it to a few simplistic characteristics and say, "Oh, he has talent, she has talent." When there's just so many characteristics that can make someone successful. And, and, you know, you can use any combination of those things. It, it, I think.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Go ahead, Martin. Yeah, well, a key, a key book, actually, Ben and I, we, we've talked a lot about this and gone back and forth. A key book that around that is, is Talent Code, I thought, was, did a really great job of explaining it for people that are kind of interested in it. But, um, yeah, Ben's, I, I, you know, I agree 100% with Ben there.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, agree. That's one of my favorite books.

• 37:10Anthony Pompliano?

  What you guys are basically saying is, it reminds me a lot of Jeff Lewis is, I think, the managing partner and one of the founders of Bedrock Capital. I used to be at Founder's Fund with Peter Till and those guys. And one time, I forget exactly how it came up, but the idea of luck came up. And he basically was like, luck doesn't exist. That's just what the people who don't, who aren't successful blame their not-successfulness on, right? And it's the same thing, I think, you know, where the hindsight bias, I think, really resonates for people.

• 37:40Speaker 02

  It's funny, though, because, you know, I tend to agree with that. But I don't know if you've heard of the How You Built This podcast?

• 37:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  It's a good, it's a really good podcast. It tells some storytelling. I swear to God, every entrepreneur after the fact, they say, hey, does luck exist? And it's almost like, if they say luck doesn't exist, they're kind of like, I don't know, they're snobby or something like that. And everyone's like, hey, yes, luck exists. We got lucky, da-da-da-da. And it seems like, you know, it's counter to what a lot of people believe. A lot of people believe in that, that there is luck.

• 38:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  And I guess there's chance it happens.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Well, but luck is like talent. Like, if you're to say, everyone is the exact same out of the womb, obviously, that's not true. We all have things inherently we are better at than other people. And it's about cultivating those things to make something a success. And so everyone, you know, luck, over an extended period of time, luck is going to be neutral.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  You know, it's gonna, you're gonna have some positive, you're gonna have some negative. But over an extended, long enough time, it's gonna be neutral. And everyone's gonna experience that neutralness. The universe, I always tell kids this, the universe is not biased towards anybody. And it's seriously, and I think when teenagers have this chip on their shoulder, everyone's against me, I think that's kind of okay. I'm cool with that. Because they're young, they got a lot of spunk. But if you're 35, and you think the universe is conspiring against you, you're effing insane.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Well, I'll say one thing, though, you know, to kind of like, take the edge a little bit off that, Ben, is that if you're

• 39:16Speaker 01

  I like edging.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, if you're born in, like, a really shitty family, you know, that's kind of unlucky, I guess. You could say that's

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  And that really, that will affect, or if you're born in a certain part of the world, it's like, there are, I mean, There are chances around that, but I think in general, like when you're in America, you know, it's, I feel like you have so much, you have so much at your disposal, or you're in a Western world country, or if you're in a, in an industrialized country, a first world country, you have so much, and so there's so much potential, and that, that, to, to put it on luck or not luck, it's about, it's about really creating opportunities, or making opportunities.

• 39:59Anthony Pompliano?

  I usually think, I think a lot about this idea of the ovarian lottery, right, essentially is, is this idea of people that, first of all, it's incredibly low probability that you, as a, as a human, are the one who ended up with the sperm and the egg coming together and, and actually being born, right?

• 40:17Speaker 02

  It's so, so true.

• 40:19Anthony Pompliano?

  The biology of it, and then not only were, did you actually make it, right, to actually become a human, then you were born, you know, with two arms, two legs, and you kind of go through all these things, and you're like, it's all relative, right, and, and so it's, it, it's pretty incredible when you think about it from that way, but, but I do think that a lot of times when people are talking about luck, right, it's, hey, you take two wrestlers, for example, and you put them in a tournament, and one of them got lucky, right, and

• 40:45Anthony Pompliano?

  to me, that, that description is, it's, it's hard to, to resonate with me, just because, a-again, right, it's who, who put the work in, who actually did the actions, right, it's not like some, some fairy godmother came down and, you know, did something to one of the wrestlers, it's just effort.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes. So, all right, before I finish up, I, I was asked about aliens, either one of you guys believe in aliens?

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  I'm not, I'm not totally against the possibility, I'm also not well researched enough to say there are aliens, but I know a lot of smart, I saw a lot of smart people really, really do genuinely believe that they exist, so it's a possibility.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Pomp, what's more scary for you, Pomp, is that if aliens exist, or if aliens don't exist?

• 41:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Um.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 41:33Anthony Pompliano?

  That's a really good question, actually. Uh, so my whole take on it is really that mathematically, it is unlikely that we're the only, you know, sentient beings in all of these different galaxies.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 41:44Anthony Pompliano?

  And, and the one thing I, and I've talked about on my podcast before, but just the thing that just scared the hell out of me when I was reading one day, uh, and really kind of gave me higher conviction in the whole idea of aliens existing was, uh, right now there are two other galaxies. So outside of our, you know, frigging solar system galaxy, whatever, that are colliding with each other. I don't, you know, I'm not smart enough to know what that actually.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  What is that even, what does that even mean?

• 42:07Anthony Pompliano?

  I, I don't know. I don't know if that's like a big bang type thing or what, but there's two galaxies that are colliding right now. Uh, and they're really far away, obviously. But our galaxy is supposed to collide with either those galaxies or another galaxy in like four billion years. And when I, when I read that, I said, wait a minute, four billion years? What the hell? So like.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  But how did people even know? I mean, that's like, such like, uh, like I, I'm here trying to figure out what's the best, uh, you know, our engineers are sometimes trying to figure out and have any lively discussions and, and, you know, should the button be placed here and here and let's A, B test and see if we have enough data. And it's like, these people come up with this, like, I don't even know how you can make a statement. Like, I don't even know where you begin and then. You have no, no feedback loop. So it's like, I guess you can make statements out in a vacuum, but man, that's gotta be, I mean, the, uh, you start somewhere. So people have come up with hypotheses, but, um, a question for you, Tom, I got is, do you think Satoshi is an actual alien?

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 43:09Anthony Pompliano?

  So definitely not an alien. The, it, it's probably the question I get the most often. It's, it's always like, I'll, I'll go meet with, uh, a lot of these institutional investors. These are, you know, pretty conservative people who, uh, their job is to not lose money, right? It's not even to make money as much as this first, first job, don't lose it. Second job, make some, uh, make some money. And, uh, they always ask me two things on the way out the doors. It's always out, uh, as we're walking out the door and it's usually like the analyst or, or kind of one of the younger guys. Um, and what they'll say first is, hey, man, I follow you on Twitter. I've, you know, uh, listened to podcasts, whatever, but they don't want to like say that out loud in the meeting to be labeled as like the crazy crypto one. Um, and the second thing that they'll always ask me is like, who do you think Satoshi is? And I always tell them that like, first, we're better off not know.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  It, it's Craig Wright, isn't it?

• 43:58Anthony Pompliano?

  I saw something going around on Twitter that the Colombian government is now recognizing him as Satoshi. I don't know what the hell is going on.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. He paid him for that.

• 44:12Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm gonna get a rumor that Ben Askren is Satoshi and see how that goes.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  I don't, I think people wouldn't realize that I do not have the intellect for that. Damn it.

• 44:23Anthony Pompliano?

  No, it's a thing where I really do think it's Marty Bent calls it the immaculate conception of Bitcoin. Right? And it's this whole idea of like, yeah, everyone's got their theory, but we've got some information like the early emails and some of the blog posts and things like that. But nobody knows who did it. And that's actually a positive because it's a story, right? And money is just a belief system and there's now a story to believe in. And so we're better off not knowing and I think I subscribe to that thought process.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's great for a story from that perspective, 100% creates so much intrigue and mystery around it.

• 45:01Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. So where, Martin, where can people find out more about RokFin and kind of get connected with you guys?

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, so creators interested in joining RokFin, you can email us at [email protected]. And you can also go to the RAE token, r a e token dot org and figure out more about the RAE token and the blockchain components and all the token mechanics and whatnot around RAE. So.

• 45:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Ben, what Twitter, your RokFin account, what do you want to push here?

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, all of that. Obviously, I'm on Twitter, I'm on Instagram. I obviously post a lot of my preview material for my RokFin stuff on my Twitter and my Instagram. So if you go to one of those places, you'll be obviously led to RokFin as well.

• 45:57Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Last question. Any prediction for the fight in July?

• 46:01Speaker 01

  I mean, I think I tend to believe it's gonna be a fairly easy fight for me. Whether I just dominate him for 15 minutes, or whether he ends up making a mistake and I submit him, I'm not sure of what, you know, he could obviously play a much more conservative game and just take the L, or he could try to be more aggressive, in which case I'll probably submit him. So, uh, yeah, I'm pretty confident. Training's going great, everything's good, I'm excited.

• 46:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Hey, Ben, I heard that no one has submitted Jorge or knocked him out in his 47 fights, is that true?

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Uh, let's see, losses. Decision, decision, decision, decision, decision, decision, decision, decision. No, he got submitted by Toby Amada, and he got TK'd by Rodrigo Diam. Those were both a long time ago, but yeah, it has happened.

• 46:45Anthony Pompliano?

  That's a lot of L's that you just counted up there.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Well, he's got, he's 33 and 13, so he does have a lot of fights.

• 46:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. What, uh, when people ask you what your record is, what do you count in there on the MMA side?

• 47:01Speaker 01

  My, I'm 19 and 0.

• 47:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, zero losses, undefeated.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Zero, yeah, that's good.

• 47:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's keep it that way.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 47:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Alright guys, listen, this is a ton of fun. I appreciate you guys taking the time to do it, especially Ben while you're training for the fight and everything, we'll be cheering for you. And then Martin, hopefully people go check out RokFin, and they can come find you guys and track you down on the internet.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 47:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Sounds good. Hey, thanks for having us, Tom. Are you curious about cryptocurrency and you don't know where to begin? I've got a great way for you to try. You can use Stormplay, a free and fun way to start earning in exchange for your time. That's right, you don't necessarily have to make a financial investment to begin. You can simply download, register, and then discover these micro tasks that they present you that meet your interest, and then you're rewarded with these Stormbolts. The bolts are then converted and can be withdrawn into your favorite cryptocurrency, including the Storm Token, Ethereum, or my favorite, Bitcoin. If you go and download the Stormplay app today, you can earn cryptocurrency rewards by playing new games and trying out cool new products. It's worth a try, and it's a great way to get started. Remember, go check out Stormplay in the App Store today.

• 48:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Hey everyone, Pomp here. If you liked this episode of Off the Chain and want to help us take crypto to the top of the Apple, Spotify, and other podcast charts, please do us a favor and rate, review, and subscribe. To review, simply go to the Off the Chain homepage, scroll down until you see the five blank stars. Taking 15 seconds to fill those stars in and leave a quick review goes a long way in helping us take the entire crypto ecosystem to the top of the charts. I appreciate you listening and see you next time on Off the Chain.