They Are Not Your Rivals | Ask DS

What’s the opposite of Stoicism, this austere philosophy based on toughness and resilience, virtue and service? Well, in the ancient world, it was Epicureanism–a philosophy that said that pleasure was the highest good. Could there be anything more different than Stoicism? As it happens, the Epicureans got a bad rap in the ancient world and in today’s.---And in today's Ask Daily Stoic, Ryan presents part three of his Q&A at the Young President's Organization West Michigan chapter in which he discusses why the Stoics are an "operating manual for modern leadership", why it can be difficult to discourage ego in leadership during a time when it is promoted so heavily in the media, and more.📗 You can check out The Painted Porch to get your copy of Art of Happiness.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each day we read a passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you in your everyday life. While on Thursdays, we not only read the daily meditation, but we answer some questions from listeners and fellow Stoics who are trying to apply this philosophy just as you are. Some of these come from my talks. Some of these come from Zoom sessions that we do with Daily Stoic Life members or as part of the challenges. Some of them are from interactions I have on the street when there happened to be someone there recording. Thank you for listening, and we hope this is of use to you.

• 0:43Ryan Holiday?

  They are not your rivals. What's the opposite of Stoicism? This austere philosophy based on toughness and resilience, virtue and service? Well, in the ancient world, it was Epicureanism. A philosophy said that pleasure was the highest good. Could there be anything more different than Stoicism? Diotymus, whose story is told in Lives of the Stoics, despised the Epicureans. He thought that they were not just soft. He thought they were perverted gluttons. He would have been aghast at the fact that Seneca regularly quoted Epicurus in his letters, even if Seneca stipulated that he was no Epicurean. To tarry in the garden to avoid pain, this was the antithesis of what the Stoic

• 1:27Ryan Holiday?

  was supposed to advise or celebrate. As it happens, the Epicureans got a bad rap in the ancient world and in today's. Part of that is because Diotymus spread lies about them, not very Stoic. And part of it is because we just plain miss what they meant when they talked about pleasure, which is why it's worth quoting one of Epicurus's famous letters, which clarifies it all for us. By pleasure, he writes, we mean the absence of pain in the body and of trouble in the soul. It is not an unbroken succession of drinking bouts and of merry-making, not sexual love, not the enjoyment of the fish and the other delicacies of a luxurious table which produce a pleasant life.

• 2:09Ryan Holiday?

  It is sober reasoning, searching out the grounds of every choice and avoidance and banishing those beliefs through which the greatest disturbances take possession of the soul. Of all this prudence, he writes, for this reason prudence is a more precious thing even than the other virtues, for a life of pleasure which is not also a life of prudence and honor and justice, nor leading a life of prudence and honor and justice which is not also a life of pleasure. For the virtues have grown one with a pleasant life, and a pleasant life is inseparable from them. So maybe we don't disagree as much as we think we do. Perhaps we are not rivals but kindred spirits. And instead of scorning the Epicureans, we should try, as Seneca did, to learn from

• 2:54Ryan Holiday?

  them. There's actually a great book we carry in the painted porch called The Art of Happiness. It's a Penguin Classics collection of insights from Epicurus, which I recommend. I'll link to it in today's show episode, but otherwise enjoy.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  From your reading of the Stoic philosophers, why do these thinkers resonate so clearly to modern minds where other ancient thinkers become outmoded? The Stoics are like operating manual for modern leadership.

• 3:29Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I certainly agree with the premise that it's an operating manual for modern leadership. I think it's because of all the philosophical schools, the Stoics were real doers, like they were actually, they were, even Zeno. Zeno is, found Stoicism out of, and I talk about this in my latest book.

• 3:49Ryan Holiday?

  Lives of the Stoics is the first story in the book. Zeno is a successful merchant who loses everything in a shipwreck and he turns to philosophy. So these were people with real experience in the real world. Marcus Aurelius is the emperor. You know, Seneca is Rome's greatest playwright and its most powerful, you know, power broker. The Stoics were diplomats and generals and, you know, businessmen and artists and mothers and fathers. They were real people doing real things in the world. And so I think the philosophy is about practical application as opposed to, you know, coming up with interesting or provocative ideas. So that the pragmatism is why I think it resonates today.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Is it difficult to discourage ego when we see so many examples of it in the media every day and in Washington DC?

• 4:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, there's sort of a publication bias, if you're familiar with that term when it comes to ego. As I was saying, most of the great CEOs want to operate under the radar. They don't want to tell you exactly what they're doing and how they're doing it. They, they don't want to, you know, draw the attention of regulatory agencies or, you know, journalists, or they don't want to be on the cover of magazines. So the people we hear about naturally are the most egotistical, almost by, by definition, right? The people who want you to hear about them tend to be the most egotistical and those are the people you hear about the most. So, you know, it's just, it's just worth noting that like the people you hear about, like, I was thinking about this even during the pandemic.

• 5:24Ryan Holiday?

  It can feel like a friend of mine, I was talking to a friend of mine who's, Austin Kleon is a great writer. He did Steel Like an Artist. He's like one of the few sane people that I know that's been sort of really safe and smart during the pandemic. And we were talking about all the people we know who have not been safe. And, and he was like, you gotta remember. The people who are not being safe, or the people who are being safe, don't have anything to post on social media about how safe they're being. Whereas the people who are traveling around to events and, you know, going out to dinner every night and, you know, doing what they're not supposed to be doing, are by definition, the ones you see because not only is there something for them to photograph and share, but, uh, but, uh, they don't think there's anything wrong with it. So they're, you know,

• 6:09Ryan Holiday?

  not ashamed to show it. So it's just, it's important to remember that most people are humble. Most people are not egomaniacs. Most people don't want to be the center of attention. I think Susan Cain did this well with her book on introverts. There are, uh, you know, half the population is, is introverted. You just don't see them as much as the extroverts because they're introverted.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Excellent. This next question, I think you already answered with that. But is social media with its ability to self-publish and live in an echo chamber, created a dan- dangerous pandemic of ego? Again, I think you just answered that.

• 6:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it just, it feeds the ego. It says, what do you have to say? And then it says, here's what everyone thinks about what you have to say. And, uh, you know, it doesn't, I don't think it engenders humility to say anything of smart thinking.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I would another question. How do you suggest coaching employees with these tendencies?

• 7:05Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's hard. It's hard, right? I, it's funny. One of the questions I get the most though, people go, my boss has a huge ego. What should I do with it? You know, what should I do about it? And I go, you know, you probably have an ego too. Why don't you start there? Right? So, um, I, I do think though, as the leader of a company, your job is to model egolessness and your job is, so first off, you gotta lead by example. But second, you're to protect ego. I think, or sorry, you're to keep ego out of the organization. Bill Belichick famously is, he's like, if you got an ego, if you're not going to play by the patriot way, like get out of here, you know? And he's willing to trade talented people. He's willing to take hits on contracts. He had, his, his job is to protect the culture.

• 7:49Ryan Holiday?

  And, uh, and I think that's your job as a leader is your, your job is to protect the culture and to keep ego out.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  And how about him denying the medal in Washington? There's

• 8:01Ryan Holiday?

  It is.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  buyer values, huh?

• 8:03Ryan Holiday?

  Although that was, that got it. That also was such a no brainer at the same time.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  I agree, but we've seen others that ran and got it in the

• 8:13Ryan Holiday?

  I know, I know. It's nuts.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Um, all right. I think we're kind of just a couple of things. I guess what is, what is the book that you most gift or recommend other than yours, obviously? And you've, you've referenced a few of

• 8:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Um, I think Robert Greene's books are really good. Uh, this is one of my favorite books. I love, uh, The War of Art by Steven Pressfield.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 8:35Ryan Holiday?

  I think for anyone doing anything, um, Mark Serelius's Meditations would be a big one. Anti-Fragile is a good one. The Black Swan is a good one.

• 8:47Ryan Holiday?

  Um, the, the book I've recommended the most this year is John M. Berry wrote a book called The Great Influenza, which is about, uh, the Spanish flu. Um, you know, if you want to figure out what's going to happen next, just study, study the past. Uh, so I thought that was a really great book. I definitely recommend that. And then I've also loved Doris Kearns Goodwin's, um, uh, Leadership in Turbulent Times. I think that's a no brainer right now.