422: How to Effectively Interrogate Someone

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe How to effectively interrogate someone. From the Army's FM34-52: Intelligence Interrogation. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 422 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. So you've heard me talk about asking earnest questions. The purpose of doing that is to try and understand what someone else is thinking without putting them into a defensive mind, without making them suspicious, without flaring up their ego. A bunch of things going on. Generally speaking, asking earnest questions is an indirect approach of trying to understand other people's ideas. It's an open-minded approach. It's not like a scam. It's not a little trick.

• 0:41Jocko Willink?

  If you do it correctly, it shouldn't cause someone to become defensive. In fact, if you do it correctly, the opposite should happen. Good earnest questions that you ask other people should open up their mind, open up their, their

• 1:00Jocko Willink?

  mentality to where they actually want to explain their viewpoint so you can better understand them. That's, that's, that's what an earnest question should do. Asking earnest questions is not easy.

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  Some people screw it up.

• 1:15Jocko Willink?

  If you aren't careful, your questions can become leading questions. They can become accusatory questions. They can even become blaming questions. Why did you do that? Right?

• 1:28Jocko Willink?

  So I was thinking about the various approaches that, that you utilize and I've, trust me, I've tried to help a lot of people with this. And one of the things that I thought about when I thought about questioning was questions that are used in a particular environment.

• 1:42Jocko Willink?

  And that is the environment of interrogation. So in order to get better at asking questions, I wanted to look at some interrogation methods. I know that when I got trained, Actually, I never trained as an interrogator, other than like real rudimentary kind of what they call battlefield interrogation, which is not remotely a trained interrogator. Probably I learned more from going through our Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School, where they teach you the various methods that you're gonna be interrogated.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  That's SEER school?

• 2:15Jocko Willink?

  SEER school, yep, commonly referred to as SEER school.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:18Jocko Willink?

  Chili. It's cold.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Cold, that's where you...

• 2:21Jocko Willink?

  It's, you know, it's down here in Southern California, but you know the mountains up by Julian?

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26Jocko Willink?

  Like going up to that area?

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:27Jocko Willink?

  That's where we were at. It was chilly in winter time.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's part of the, part of the training?

• 2:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's part of the training.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Wait, so what do you, sorry to interrupt, what, so you just said you're not a trained interrogator, but you just learned the basic stuff of, like what, like what's, what's some basic interrogation?

• 2:43Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're about to get into. So what we're about to dive into is we're about to dive into the Army's FM 34 Tac 52 Intelligence Interrogation. And I think it's just a good framework to expand our knowledge in the field of asking questions. Make sure that when you're asking questions, they're not accusatory questions, they're not blaming questions, they're not leading questions. Make sure that we're building trust and we're building relationships with people, instead of undermining trust and undermining relationships. And I think you're gonna see that this is just, this is just a good familiarity that's gonna help us interacting with other people and give us some things to think about when we're interacting with other people.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Here's what I did notice about you with your asking earnest questions is your tone, and obviously I can't read your mind, even though I do believe that you're asking these questions for these reasons that you just said, but as far as the presentation goes, it's like tone is such a massive thing, like how you say these things, because really technically, you can say the same exact words under two different circumstances and they mean completely different things. What are they gonna land different? Like, you know how people will be like, oh, like, what was your thought? Like, let's say you did something and I, and I'm gonna ask a question about it, right? Earnest versus freaking condescending or something like this. If I say the words, what was your thought process? There's two ways I could say that. Like, what was your thought process? So that like, you're just so dumb, you know?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  So condescending. Or be like, oh, you know, what, you know, what was your, what was your, what was your thought process on that? On that one right there?

• 4:16Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you had to add a little bit. You couldn't say the exact same words.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 4:20Jocko Willink?

  You probably could, but we'd have to work on it a little bit.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 4:23Jocko Willink?

  Like, if I was, I'd be like, like, hey, what was your process? What was your thought process on that? Like, that's, that's.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:32Jocko Willink?

  What you gotta do is you gotta put yourself, this is, this is why it's important. That it's not a trick, because even if I'm like, well, Jocko said to ask earnest questions. And I don't know what the hell Echo was thinking, but since Jocko said ask earnest questions, I'm just gonna try and ask earnest questions.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:49Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna see through that. Most likely, you're gonna see through that.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  I think so, too.

• 4:52Jocko Willink?

  But if I truly like, hey, what was your thought process when you did that? See what I'm saying? Like, that's, like, I really wanna know.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 4:58Jocko Willink?

  Hey, what was your, as opposed to, I think you're an idiot, what was your thought process? Like, that's, it's just a subtle difference.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Bro, I'll, so I'll do that with my kids where, so I added, and I remember a couple of times, there's more, both times was with my daughter, where I wouldn't, I wouldn't just say, what was your thought process? I'd be like, hey, were you thinking, I would go like one step further and try to imagine, what was this 10-year-old girl thinking under these circumstances? What would be like, not even necessarily a bad thought? Like, what would be a logical thing that a 10-year-old would think? That isn't terrible, you know? So like, hey, what was your thought? Was it this? Did you think that you were just gonna do this? And then like, hey, you know, no harm, no foul, kind of a thing? So you kinda like throw in there like, hey, I kinda understand. I think I understand what you were thinking. And but let's, you know, let's revisit it and let's kinda, you know, improve it, kind of a thing, kind of a tone, you know?

• 5:49Speaker 01

  And probably it worked perfectly. Like, she didn't, she didn't feel like she was in trouble. She was like, oh, just, you know, just exposing everything, kind of a thing. Like, cool.

• 5:58Jocko Willink?

  So you have a little bit of methodology, right?

• 6:01Speaker 01

  A little bit, a little bit.

• 6:02Jocko Willink?

  So we'll get into this book right here. This is a FM, like I said, FM 3452, intel, intelligence interrogation from that department of the, the headquarters department of the army. This is actually from 1992, this copy that I got right here. And it's got a whole, it's got a bunch of sections. We're not going through the whole thing, obviously, because it starts off, oftentimes the army does this, they're gonna take you like from ground zero. Almost like you don't even speak the English language and they're going to teach you something. They don't do that, but they go through the milit- like the first chapters, military intelligence, missions, and intelligence preparation of the battlefield. So like, oh, really warfighting, warfighting doctrine, the intelligence cycle, intelligence disciplines, definite, a bunch of various definitions,

• 6:45Jocko Willink?

  articles of the Geneva Convention. So there's a lot of stuff. Look, if you're, if we were going to have a military interrogation, we'd go through it all. Uh, the next section is about composition and structure. And this isn't like composition and structure of sentences or questions. This is about the tactical operations center and what it looks like at the division and what it looks like at the core level and what it looks at the echelon above course. So there's a bunch of, a bunch of kind of administrative information. And then you get into the interrogation process. It starts off with collection priority. So what are you looking for? So it actually goes through, like, you know, if you, you want to find out the location of the enemy, you want to find out what, so it gives you what the priorities are.

• 7:27Jocko Willink?

  Screening, which is just like an administrative process, because the, the army has a process for everything. The army don't play around. So they've got a process like you capture someone, here's what you do with them. Here's the first form that they fill. Here's how you label this. So it goes through that whole thing. And, and the planning and preparation is really when it's talking about the plan or planning and preparation, it's the logistics of interrogation. But chairs in the room, you know, this is what the army does, you know, for, in, if you have this person, you need this size desk and this type of notebook, like it's going to give you the details. They live nothing to chance. And then we get into the approach phase. And that's what we're going to get into, which we'll get into the approach phase, the questioning phase and determination phase.

• 8:12Jocko Willink?

  That's kind of what we're going to cover today. Um, important couple of things here that it starts off with. So now we're going to jump into it. The sources background.

• 8:22Jocko Willink?

  What's the sources age and level of military or civilian experience? Hey, isn't it good if you're going to talk to someone? You're going to ask someone some questions that you know a little bit of background about them?

• 8:31Speaker 01

  And the source is the person.

• 8:32Jocko Willink?

  The person that you're in this case. Yeah. They, they, they use a couple of different terms. I'll call them out as we get to, but yeah, the source in this situation is the person that's giving you information. The objective, the interrogation, how much time is available? So it's giving you some basic stuff. And then the interrogator himself, what abilities does he have that can be brought into place? So now we're talking about you. What do you have? What weaknesses do you have? So you've got to kind of know yourself. It goes through that interrogator's questions, question. Should question guards about the sources, time permitting as part of the preparation? It's just trying to help you figure out, you want to know about as much about a person as you can before you start drilling them with questions. So this is true.

• 9:16Jocko Willink?

  If I'm going to go talk to an employee that I don't really know very well, and he's one of your employees, I might go, hey, Echo, what's their temperament like? How long have they been here for? Do they, are they good at their job? Do they show up late? Like, I want to get some familiarity so I know what I'm dealing with. And that's an important part of sort of setting the stage.

• 9:37Jocko Willink?

  And you goes through some other EPWs is a term that they used to call, that they use in this book. It's enemy prisoner of war. Or they see, or they say detainee. So one of those two. All right, now we're going to get to the sort of the brass tacks of it. It starts off with the approach phase.

• 9:56Jocko Willink?

  At the initial contact, a business-like relationship should be maintained. As the EPW or detainee assumes a cooperative attitude, a more relaxed atmosphere may be advantageous. The interrogator must carefully determine which of the various approaches, approach techniques to employ. Regardless of the type of EPW or detainee and his outward personality, he does possess weaknesses which if recognized by an interrogator can be exploited. These weaknesses are manifested in personality traits such as speech, mannerisms, facial expressions, physical movements, excessive perspiration, and other overt indications that may vary from EPW.

• 10:41Jocko Willink?

  To detainee or detainee. So you gotta pay attention to what you're dealing with out of the gate. And very good point is being professional. Like a business like when you meet someone, you ever had somebody or you ever seen somebody tell a joke at a bad time?

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, I have.

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  It's it's awkward, super awkward. Have you ever watched The Office? Yeah, there's a lot of scenes like where Michael Scott's telling jokes and that no one is in a mood for jokes.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 11:12Jocko Willink?

  I told this, uh, I, one of the worst ones I've seen, and this is why I have a rule, I have a rule. If you're presenting, do not put jokes on slides. So if you got a PowerPoint presentation, don't put any jokes on there. Because you don't know what's going on in the room. You don't know what that room's gonna feel like. You don't know what the attitude's gonna be in there. So I was traveling the world with a four star general. Who is going to a bunch of different out, uh, out stations, special operations out stations. And we went into one. And it was in Africa. And it was in Djibouti, Africa. And they had taken a, a map of Djibouti.

• 11:55Jocko Willink?

  And superimposed it over a map of someone's ass.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 12:01Jocko Willink?

  And it said, welcome to Djibouti.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Sir.

• 12:05Jocko Willink?

  This general was not. He wasn't, he was very PG rated. As a matter of fact, he might as, he might as, might very well have been G rated.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:17Jocko Willink?

  He didn't find this funny. And these guys couldn't, they didn't pick up on it quick.

• 12:23Jocko Willink?

  And by the time they picked up on it, it was too late. Cause the slide was already up there. Like they started to realize that he was a more serious guy and it wasn't going to be a funny, funny joke, joke situation. Then clicked to the slide and it says Djibouti and it was, it was not good. So let's always begin with professionalism.

• 12:42Jocko Willink?

  Not, not being a jerk, not being cold, but just begin with professionalism. Just a business like, hey, good to meet you or whatever, when you're dealing with another human being.

• 12:53Jocko Willink?

  Going forward, from a psychological standpoint, the interrogator must be cognizant of the following behaviors. People tend to talk, especially after harrowing experiences. Show deference when confronted by superior authority. Rationalize acts about which they feel guilty. Fail to apply or remember lessons they may have been taught regarding security if confronted with a disorganized or strange situation. They're giving you all these little hints, right? You get someone that's just something crazy's just happened, there's a chance they want to talk about it. There's also a chance that they don't. You know, you get people that kind of turn inward.

• 13:36Jocko Willink?

  And also just showing authority, superior authority can kind of, can kind of get people to comply. See, that's what, that's one of the, one of the tough things about police officers is 99% of the time, when they tell somebody to do something from that position of authority, and they, they kind of bark those orders at somebody, people listen to them. It's the 1% of the time that someone doesn't listen, that they, they can't escalate anymore, they don't know what to do. Continuing on. People generally cooperate with those who have control over them. Next, attach less importance to a topic about which the interrogator demonstrates identical

• 14:21Jocko Willink?

  or related experience or knowledge. So if you act like you already know it, or you act like you're familiar with it, people will be kind of more down to talk about it. Appreciate flattery and exoneration from guilt, that's a big one right there, right? It's kind of what you just talked about with your daughter. You're like, oh, you didn't do anything wrong, but you know, I can see, hey, I can see where this happens.

• 14:42Jocko Willink?

  Um, resent having someone or something they respect belittled, especially by someone they dislike. Again, just important thing to keep in mind. So if you belittle something that they care about, you're gonna be not getting a good relationship going with them. Respond to kindness and understanding during trying circumstances. That's makes sense, right? Be nice to people. Cooperate readily when given material rewards such as extra food or luxury items for their personal comfort. Okay, again, being nice to people goes a long way. Treating people with respect goes a long way. That, that, that's like when you're dealing with a valet dude. You know, or a waitress or a hostess.

• 15:26Jocko Willink?

  And you just be nice to them and they'll be nice to you, which means you might get a table before this other person that came in and acted like an asshole.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true. I used to be a valet, by the way.

• 15:38Jocko Willink?

  Did you?

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 15:39Jocko Willink?

  Where?

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Aloha Tower.

• 15:41Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  In Honolulu.

• 15:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, check. Did you run?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, get a run.

• 15:47Jocko Willink?

  How long would it take to get a car?

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know, two minutes.

• 15:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay, that's not bad.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Give or take. Yeah, yeah, it's good.

• 15:53Jocko Willink?

  Good gig, for sure. What's the nicest car you ever valeted?

• 15:56Speaker 01

  All that I can remember, probably those Mercedes cars. Yeah, that, that is the thing.

• 16:02Jocko Willink?

  No Lambos or anything like this?

• 16:03Speaker 01

  No, no, not that I can, no, I wouldn't remember that. But yeah, no, probably Mercedes vans. You get a lot of those for sure. Aloha Tower.

• 16:11Jocko Willink?

  A lot of people have Lambos in Hawaii.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Uh, no, it's very rare.

• 16:15Jocko Willink?

  Even like super nice cars, supercars?

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Well, like these exotic type cars, very rare. Uh, Honolulu, there's a few here and there for sure, but.

• 16:22Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever been to Malibu, California?

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:25Jocko Willink?

  There's like really nice cars.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:27Jocko Willink?

  Everywhere.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:28Jocko Willink?

  It's kinda, it fits the stereotype of what you kinda think.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:33Jocko Willink?

  I, I was with my son, we were surfing up there. He was like 10 or whatever, and we'd just like go to the gas station for a little while. Cause McLarens are coming in, Lamborghinis are coming in.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:44Jocko Willink?

  It's pretty.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  I did notice that, yeah. I've been up there a few times. Actually, one was for that. I think you might have been there. It was like the black belt surf paddle out.

• 16:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I didn't go.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  With like Hixson and stuff. I went up there, I did some video. That's where I lost my drone, my first drone. From a crash, did in the.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  It was gone forever.

• 17:03Jocko Willink?

  The boo.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was bad. But yeah, Malibu, hell yeah.

• 17:06Jocko Willink?

  Check. But if you're nice to the valet dude, he's probably gonna take care of you a little bit more.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 17:11Jocko Willink?

  That's a little thing, just a little note.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:15Jocko Willink?

  Just a little note, and you know what? You're being a better human being.

• 17:22Jocko Willink?

  Next. Cooperate, oh, interrogators do not run an approach by following a set pattern or routine. Each interrogation is different, but all interrogation approaches have the following things in common. They establish and maintain control over the source and interrogation. Establish and maintain rapport between the interrogator and the source. Manipulate the source's emotions and weaknesses to gain his willing cooperation. The only one that I kinda, I, I think when it says establish and maintain control over the source and the interrogation. I think sometimes at least showing that person that they have some control.

• 18:06Jocko Willink?

  Is a good way to get people to talk more.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:09Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much, and they, you know, use the word cooperation where that, that word kinda goes deep as far as like how it feels. So you know how like, you know, you watch your crime shows and all the stuff, they show the footage of the interrogation. When the guy's like on the, I remember thinking.

• 18:26Jocko Willink?

  I like watching those things.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:27Jocko Willink?

  I like watching the, just for this very reason, you ever watch the, never mind crime shows, I'm talking like, well, I guess maybe you're talking, you're talking about actual interrogations.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:37Jocko Willink?

  Really.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  They have the footage of it.

• 18:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Exactly. You know, forensic files.

• 18:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  And I always thought that when the guy is so nice to the guy, like getting him coffee and lighting and stuff, like being nice, saying, hey, we're doing this together. I'm not, it's not me against you, it's me with you, kinda in feel, I remember thinking, bro, if I was a criminal, I'd kinda enjoy that part of it. I might even freaking give up all the goods, just because, not, not consciously, but I'm just saying, I can see how that would work. Because a lot of times like a criminal, like. If you're on the run, and this is just what I heard, because I'm not a criminal, but when you're on the run, that stress like gets to you. So there's, I guess, a part of a criminal that's kind of relieved that they got caught sometimes. So man, if you're, if you get caught and you're getting interrogated and the guy's cool about it, at least you could be like, yeah, man, freaking, I've been feeling stressed, like a little session.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  You see what I'm saying? So yeah, if you're like cooperating with them, I can see how that could work, man. That would work on me. I'll tell you that.

• 19:27Jocko Willink?

  So they call that soft sell.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, soft selling.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  And when I went through serious call, the soft sell got me more than the hard sell did.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:35Jocko Willink?

  Like while them slapping me around and all that, I just was like more firm and not talking.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:40Jocko Willink?

  But when they caught me off guard, like the first time that someone was nice to me, I was like, oh, and it's not like I gave up information. But what do they do? They get you to, they get you to like eat something. And then they got you on video that they're feeding, you know, see, we're taking perfect care of them. And, you know, they say, oh, is there anything we can do for you? And you're like, if you say, yes, you can do this. And then they, you're giving them an opportunity to turn that into propaganda. So you say, no, I'm okay. And then, but you said it in kind of a nice way. And they said it a nice way. So it sounds like they're taking it. So that, that was definitely harder to deal with. It's counterintuitive. Cause when someone's nice to you, you're nice to them. And that's just what they're taking advantage of. And that's what they're saying right here.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 20:20Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta watch out for that.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 20:24Jocko Willink?

  It goes on to say, the source may or may not be aware he is providing the interrogator with information about enemy forces. Some approaches may be complete when the source begins to answer questions. Other may have to, others may have to be constantly maintained or reinforced throughout the interrogation. The techniques used in an approach can best be defined as a series of events, not just verbal conversation between the interrogator and source. The exploitation of the source's emotion can be harsh or gentle in application. Some useful techniques used by interrogators are hand and body, body movements, actual physical contact, such as a hand on the shoulder for reassurance. And then my personal favorite, silence.

• 21:09Jocko Willink?

  It goes through to talk about stern posture. In the stern, you can use either stern or sympathetic. Stern, the interrogator keeps the EPW or detainee at attention. The aim is to make the EPW or detainee keenly aware of his helpless and inferior status. Interrogators use this posture with officers, NTOs, and security conscious enlisted men.

• 21:32Jocko Willink?

  In sympathetic posture, the interrogator addresses the EPW as in a friendly fashion, striving to put him at ease. The posture is commonly used in interrogating an older or younger EPWs. So that's what we're talking about. What I found is when they use these two kind of, it's good cop, classic good cop, bad cop, right? The guy comes in and is a jerk to you. They usually do bad cop first.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, because so the good cop is kind of like an element of relief.

• 21:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, total element of relief. That's what, that's what feels good. Frightened persons, regardless of rank, will invariably talk in order to relieve tension once they hear a sympathetic voice in their own tongue. So there you go. It's what you just said. There are many variations of these basic postures. Goes into some of those. Interrogate must not waste time in pointless discussions or make promises he can't keep. For example, the interrogator's granting political asylum. And it goes in this whole thing where you can't do that. And this is an interesting thing. You were talking about your daughter earlier. Fake promises. If you are not, if you make fake promises as a parent, you just, you're

• 22:37Jocko Willink?

  doing a terrible job. You're doing a terrible job. If you make a promise, you need to keep that promise.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  Even if it's bad, like, you know,

• 22:44Jocko Willink?

  Why would you make a bad promise?

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a threat, you know, like that kind of stuff. Like, hey, I probably

• 22:48Jocko Willink?

  Well, yes, yes. Here's the thing. Don't make a threat that you're not going to back up. Which sucks when you're a parent, because you're like, because you're like, we're supposed to go to whatever jiu-jitsu this afternoon, we're supposed to go surfing. You're like, if you don't do this right now, we're, we're not going surfing.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:04Jocko Willink?

  And then they don't do it. And then you can't go surfing.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  You're gonna screw yourself a little bit.

• 23:08Jocko Willink?

  No. So you'd never make threats.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:10Jocko Willink?

  You know, only threaten things that you don't want to do anyways. This is interesting, right? Under no circumstances will the interrogator betray surprise at anything the EPW might say. This is a good one to have. This is a good one to have. Not acting surprised when people tell you things is like such a powerful thing, especially when they're trying to tell you something to shock you. When they're trying to catch you, they're trying to get you. And you go, I got that. Or you just nod your head. Many EPWs will talk freely if they feel the information they are discussing is already known to the interrogator. That's not the reason that same, so what they're saying is,

• 23:52Jocko Willink?

  if you start telling me something and I just act like I'm not surprised, like, yeah, I already, yeah, of course you were in this position and you had this many guys with you. If I act like it's no big deal, you'll kind of keep talking. But if I'm like, wait, what?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:04Jocko Willink?

  Then I, then you go, oh, shit, I'm giving away information.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you kind of alienate the, like him out of the relationship, you know, like that cooperative thing I was talking about, that feeling like you're kind of like, I guess, for lack of a better term, bonding with the guy in a, on a certain level. And you start seeing this outlandish stuff that's, you know, you lose them a little bit. So you kind of jam up their relationship.

• 24:26Jocko Willink?

  But from a leadership perspective, when things are getting a little bit wild and you're just like, yeah, Roger.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:33Jocko Willink?

  And your main thing is just to nod your head and say, Roger that.

• 24:38Jocko Willink?

  That is so much better than bad news coming in and you go, huh, or, ah, or you, one of those reactions, you gotta be kidding, like any of those things, they all suck. They're all bad. Getting control of your emotions and not overreacting when you hear something is a powerful skill that can't be underestimated at all.

• 25:02Jocko Willink?

  The interrogator encourages any behavior that deepens rapport and increases the flow of communication. At the same time, the interrogator must discourage any behavior that has the opposite effect. So we, we want to have a conversation. That's what we're doing. It goes into a, a thing here about how to develop rapport. Rapport must be maintained throughout the interrogation, not only in the approach phase. Again, what's interesting about this is I, I say, look, if I'm going to interact with another person, I want to improve our relationship. Like if I have to interact with you and you're my peer or you're my supporter or you're my superior, by the end of our interaction, I want our relationship to be stronger. So that's what we're doing with this rapport. So when I'm doing something to you that's making our relationship

• 25:47Jocko Willink?

  worse, it's a problem. I don't want to be doing that thing.

• 25:51Jocko Willink?

  Now, some people might are probably thinking right now like, oh, you never would tell Echo, that doesn't make sense. Well, would I say if you, if you present your plan to me and I say, that doesn't make sense, what just happened to our relationship? Did it go up or down? Went down a little bit. If I said, hey Echo, I'm not sure I fully understand this. Can you explain this to me and just let me understand the, the details here? Did our relationship to get better or worse?

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Better.

• 26:12Jocko Willink?

  Got a little bit better. I'm curious about what you, your plan. I want to know more about it. And I'm, I'm essentially doing the same thing.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, asking the exact same thing, yeah.

• 26:21Jocko Willink?

  So we want to develop rapport.

• 26:25Jocko Willink?

  Depending on the situation and requests the source may have made, an interrogator can also use the following to develop rapport. Offer realistic incentives such as immediate comfort items, items like coffee or cigarettes, a short-term meal, or a short-term like a meal, a shower, or send a letter home. A long-term repatriation, political asylum. You can also, this is an interesting one, feign experience similar to those of the source. It's a good one. Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah, it's freezing out there right now, isn't it? You know, it's like, oh, yeah. We're kind of the same. We're kind of bros.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  You ever watch First Blood?

• 27:08Jocko Willink?

  Affirmative.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Yes. So they, they got this all backwards in First Blood.

• 27:12Jocko Willink?

  What part?

• 27:13Speaker 01

  The, well, the whole reason the movie happened, because you know, John Rambo's rolling in, they come in and they just start beating him verbally, the whole deal, not bonding with him at all. In fact, they didn't give him a shower, they put him in a room and hosed him down with cold water and you know it was cold over there in Seattle or wherever they were.

• 27:29Jocko Willink?

  Spokane, I believe.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. All right. All right.

• 27:34Jocko Willink?

  Show concern for the source through use of voice, vitality, and body language. Help the source rationalize his guilt. That's an interesting one. Kind of like, again, I'm not trying to say you're interrogating your daughter.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:46Jocko Willink?

  When you're like, oh, yeah, you know, I can see where that happened.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 27:49Jocko Willink?

  It's a good way to do it. Help them rationalize their guilt. Show kindness and understanding toward the source's predicament. It's a good one. Exonerate the source from guilt. This really isn't your fault, but what happened?

• 28:05Jocko Willink?

  Flatter the source. Isn't it, isn't it interesting that flattery is like the cheapest little easiest thing, but it actually works? It is, right? It's like so cheap. How much does it cost to say like, oh, you, I like the way you handled that or whatever?

• 28:23Speaker 01

  So you've been, you know, that one, that I like the way you handled that. That's a little bit more advanced flattery, to be honest with you. And it's way more effective. I've been thinking about, cause like, what's the real superficial? Flattery is like the, the, the obvious compliment, you know, like, hey, like freaking nice shirt or, you know, freaking, hey, you're looking strong or whatever, you know, like that kind of stuff. It's like superficial stuff. But when you, and I got note of this like a long time ago, if you flatter someone's like decision making, it's way better because it's more like, it's less obvious. It, it takes more caring kind of a thing or attention, you know, kind of a thing.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  But, but yeah, so when you're like, hey, I like the way you handled that, that's not like, you know, like if someone's like, um, oh, looking, I don't know, strong, looking buff or whatever. You're like, yeah, cool, you know? But if you say, I like the way you handled that, that means you're paying attention to the way I did stuff, you know, which is way deeper, way more effective.

• 29:24Jocko Willink?

  Little bit of flattery, little bit of deep flattery coming from Echo Charles.

• 29:30Jocko Willink?

  Moving on a little bit, after having established control and rapport, the interrogator continually assesses the source to see if the approaches and later the questioning techniques chosen in the planning and preparation phase will indeed work. Approaches chosen in planning and preparation are tentative and based on sometimes scanty information available from documents, guards and personal observation. So we're trying to figure out how to approach this person, but it may change. It may change. This may lead the interrogator to select approaches which may be totally incorrect for obtaining this source's willing cooperation. Thus, careful assessment of the source is critical to avoid wasting valuable time in the approach phase.

• 30:15Jocko Willink?

  The questions can be mixed or separate. If, for example, the interrogator has tentatively chosen a love of comrades approach, he should ask the source questions like, "How did you get along with your fellow squad members?" If the source answers, "They were all very close and worked well as a team," the interrogator can use this approach and be reasonably sure of its success. However, if the source answers, "They all hated my guts and I couldn't stand any of them," the interrogator should quickly abandon that approach and ask some non pertinent questions to give himself time to work out a new approach. So keep an open mind on your approach as you're going, as you're communicating. And it talks about these transitions, how you gotta transition smoothly and logically to guide the conversation.

• 31:00Jocko Willink?

  And especially if you have to go from one, one approach to another. Poking and hoping in the approach may alert the prisoner to ploys and will make the job more difficult. Isn't it interesting that you can just kind of put someone at ease? And they'll talk? You know, at Echelon Front, we'll go into a company and they're almost always surprised when we go and talk to the frontline troops, what we find out. Like, we'll go back to the head shed and say, "Oh, you know, here's a problem with your manufacturing line." And they'll be like, "Who told you that?" We'll be like, "Oh, you know, we won't give names or whatever." But we'll say, "Oh, you know, people at this shift talked, talked us through what their shortfalls were.

• 31:45Jocko Willink?

  They can't believe..." Or never mind the manufacturing, they'll be like, "Oh, this person doesn't get along with this person and this, this person's not aligned with that." Like, everybody knows! And how do you do that? Oh, you just go and say, "Hey, how's it going?" Just start talking to them. They, they want to talk about what's happening at their work where they work eight to 10 hours a day.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:06Jocko Willink?

  Right? Someone comes in and is truly curious, they're like, "Oh, I got a, I got a whole drama going on."

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:11Jocko Willink?

  You ever get when some, when somebody tells you about a movie and then they gotta tell you the whole plot and everything?

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, sometimes.

• 32:16Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, the idea of... Being listened to like is very seems very compelling, you know, where especially if you even get an inkling just in life that like people just don't understand my position, what I'm doing, what I'm feeling.

• 32:36Jocko Willink?

  How much I know.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  How much I know, the whole deal, man. And someone's gonna come in and actually listen, they care, oh, I will tell it.

• 32:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  So that makes sense.

• 32:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, it's the way it works. Uh, fast forward a little bit here, recognize the breaking point. Every source has a breaking point, but interrogator never knows what it is until it's been reached. There are, however, some good indicators the source is near his breaking point or has already reached it. For example, if during the approach, the source leans forward with his facial expressions indicating the interest in the proposal or is more hesitant in his argument, he's probably nearing his breaking point. The interrogator must be alert to recognize these signs. Paying attention to what the other person's doing.

• 33:29Jocko Willink?

  Once the interrogator determines the source is breaking, he should interject a question pertinent to the objective of the interrogation. If the source answers it, the interrogator can now move into the questioning phase. If the source does not answer or box it answering, the interrogator must realize the source was not as close to the breaking point as he thought. In this case, the interrogator must continue with his approach or switch to an alternate approach or questioning technique and continue to work until he feels the source is near his breaking point. This is something you get that you'd see in those videos, those police videos when they were doing the interrogation. And like at a certain point, they just, they're done and they're just like, explain the whole deal. The whole deal comes out.

• 34:14Jocko Willink?

  At this point, it's important to note the amount of time spent with a particular source depends on several factors. The battlefield situation, expediency with which the supported commander's requirements need to be answered, and the source's willingness to talk. So it could take an hour, 20 minutes, three days, 10 days, you know?

• 34:36Jocko Willink?

  Approach combinations. With the exception of the direct approach, no other approach is effective by itself. And this is one thing that's very interesting about this whole thing is the whole, it talks about the direct approach being like, especially when someone's a little bit frazzled, the best approach, which is interesting, because I always talk about the indirect approach. But I think the whole idea of people being frazzled and in dynamic situations, they're mentally set to just get asked what's happening and talk.

• 35:14Jocko Willink?

  Interrogators use different approach techniques or combine them into cohesive logical technique. Smooth transitions, security, or sincerity, logic, and conviction almost always make a strategy work. The lack of will undoubtedly looms to, dooms it to failure. Some examples of combinations are direct approach, futility, and then incentive, or incentive. Direct futility, then love of comrades. Direct fear up, mild, then incentive. So they're, so they're giving you approaches and how you can take these approaches, and we'll get to what these are. Okay, so we got direct incentive, emotional, increased fear up, and then pride

• 35:58Jocko Willink?

  and ego. The first one is direct approach. The interrogator asks direct questions directly related to information sought, making no effort to conceal the interrogation's purpose. The direct approach, always the first to be attempted, is used on EPWs or detainees who the interrogator believes will cooperate. So if you think the person's gonna cooperate, you can go ahead and just start firing away on them. The direct approach is simple to use and it's possible to obtain the maximum amount of information in the minimum amount of time. It is frequently employed at lower echelons when the tactical situation precludes selecting other techniques and where the EPWs or detainees' mental state is one of confusion and extreme shock. So that's, I think, why it makes sense.

• 36:41Jocko Willink?

  You've got someone that's kind of a junior person, their, their mental state is kind of disrupted, they're in from the lower echelons of the organization. You go and you're like, they know what's going on. Like the, the way the world is, like you've just been captured, you're cuffed, you've had a bag over your head for 20 minutes, now you're in a room, a guy pulls the bag off your head. If you're not a straight jihadist, you're ready to talk. You know what I mean? You're like, yo, I'll tell you what's up. If you're a jihadist, that person's not gonna talk. So, direct questions or not, it doesn't matter. They're not gonna say anything. The direct approach is most effective. Statistics show in World War II, it was 90% effective.

• 37:24Jocko Willink?

  In Vietnam, in operations Urgent Fury, Just Cause, and Desert Storm, it was 95% effective. I haven't seen that kind of effectiveness. Like, we would do what we call battlefield interrogation, which is you capture someone, you're gonna ask them questions right now. Where are the weapons? It's pretty good, but it's not great. The jihadists were a little bit, you, you could tell the jihadist they wouldn't say anything. Like, a true, like jihadist, like a foreign fighter, they weren't saying shit. So, yeah, you capture someone that's just lower echelon, not really in the game, you ask them a couple questions, they're ready to tell you what's going, what's happening, what's happening.

• 38:08Jocko Willink?

  So, that's the first one, direct approach. Again, I think if you're talking about normal interaction with other human beings, direct approach, you need to use caution. Matter of fact, I would say you don't use direct approach, you escalate toward the direct approach over time, and I think you'll find that seldom where you make it all the way to the direct approach.

• 38:30Jocko Willink?

  Next one is incentive approach. The incentive approach is based on the application of inferred discomfort upon the EPW who lacks willpower. The EPW may display fondness for certain luxury items such as candy, fruit, or cigarettes. This fondness provides the interrogator with a positive means of rewarding the EPW for cooperation and truthfulness as he may give or withhold such comfort items at his discretion costs must be employed. And it just goes to talk about that you can't, it talks about the Geneva Convention, like you can't infringe on the rights that they have and there's only so much you can do to make them uncomfortable. So that's that.

• 39:13Jocko Willink?

  The EPW might be tempted to provide false or inaccurate, this is one of the warnings about it, false or inaccurate information to gain desired luxury items. So if they're like, I'll give you a cigarette, if you tell me this, they're going to tell you something. And that's ultimately when you talk about torture is torture's ineffective because people will just say whatever they gotta say to get it to stop. And so what they find over time is that torture doesn't really work. Here's the emotional approach. Through EPW observation, the interrogator can often identify dominant emotions which motivate.

• 39:53Jocko Willink?

  The motivating emotions might be greed, love, hate, revenge, or others. The interrogator employs verbal and emotional ruses in applying pressure to the EPW's dominant emotions. For example, this technique can be used on the EPW who has a great love for his unit and fellow soldiers. The interrogator may take advantage of this fully by telling the EPW that by providing pertinent information, he may shorten the war or battle in progress and save many of his comrades' lives. But his refusal to talk might cause their deaths. This places the burden on the EPW or detainee and may motivate him to seek relief through cooperation.

• 40:37Jocko Willink?

  If you understand the emotions of the person you're talking to, you can do a better job of communicating with them and getting them to communicate back to you. Like, what do they care about?

• 40:50Jocko Willink?

  Emotional love approach.

• 40:54Jocko Willink?

  This approach usually involves some incentives such as communication with the source's family or a quicker end to the war to save his comrades' lives. A good interrogator will usually orchestrate some futility with an emotional love approach to hasten the sources reaching the breaking point. The other end of the spectrum is emotional hate approach. The emotional hate approach focuses on any genuine hate or possible desire for revenge the source may feel. The interrogator must ascertain exactly what it is the source may hate so the emotion can be exploited to override the source's rational side.

• 41:26Jocko Willink?

  A source may have negative feelings about his country's regime, immediate superiors, officers in general, or his fellow soldiers. Yeah. Most of those E-dogs, they got something negative to say about their officers, tell you that much. That son of a bitch put me here. They made bad decisions.

• 41:44Jocko Willink?

  The emotional hate approach can be used more effectively by drawing out the source's negative emotions with questions that elicit thought-provoking response. For example, why do you think they allowed you to be captured? Why do you think they left you to die?

• 42:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, gonna fuel that emotion. Get people to talk. Many sources have great love for their country but may hate the regime in control. The emotional hate approach is most effective with the immature or timid source who may have no opportunity up to this point for revenge, or never had the courage to voice his feelings. Okay. Next we get into the fear up approach.

• 42:26Jocko Willink?

  Fear up approach is the exploitation of a source's pre-existing fear during the period of capture or interrogation. This you'll see, I don't know if your kids are old enough for this yet, but you'll definitely see some pre-existing fear where they get busted doing something. You'll see that look in their eyes and it's real easy to work the fear up approach. You know what I'm saying?

• 42:51Jocko Willink?

  Uh, the approach works best with the young inexperienced sources or sources who exhibit a greater than normal amount of fear nervousness. Again, you're dealing with a straight jihadi. They're, they're, they don't care. Like you get, you can almost tell, well, you could tell, like a jihadi, the look on their face, they're not going to say anything. And someone that's not really in the game or is like a junior person, they're scared and they're ready to talk. So you can fear up that person and it's going to have some effect.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:24Jocko Willink?

  A source's fear may be justified or unjustified. For example, a source who's committed a war crime may justifiably fear prosecution punishment. By contrast, a source who has been indoctrinated by enemy propaganda may unjustifiably fear that he will suffer torture, death with it in our hands if captured. That's what happened with a lot of Japanese, the Japanese in World War II. They, they were told that they would just be slaughtered and killed, that we took no prisoners. And so they fought to the death. It was worked out pretty good for them. But when we captured them, they thought they were going to die anyways.

• 44:00Jocko Willink?

  So the first approach is fear up within parentheses harsh. In this approach, the interrogator behaves in overpowering manner with a loud and threatening voice. The interrogator may even feel the need to throw objects across the room to heighten the sources implanted feelings of fear. Great care may must be taken when doing this. So any acts would not violate the prohibition on coercion and threats contained in the Geneva Convention, Article 17.

• 44:32Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, you're going to start hucking stuff around the room. You ever done that?

• 44:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:40Jocko Willink?

  I don't think I've ever. Uh, I'm trying to think of the last time I threw something.

• 44:47Jocko Willink?

  I think I've thrown like a toy or something trying to make a point type scenario.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did that with my girlfriend when I was super young.

• 45:03Jocko Willink?

  What'd you do? What'd you throw?

• 45:05Speaker 01

  I didn't throw it. I threw like threw it on the ground. It was a glass.

• 45:10Jocko Willink?

  Did it break?

• 45:11Speaker 01

  We're drinking. Yeah, shattered all dramatic, but it didn't work though. Cause yeah, she was just like, oh dramatic. Cause she knew it's not part of my personality, you know, she could tell I was putting on theatrics to be dramatic, but yeah, but. No, I don't, I'm, I don't think, you know, like certain people have certain personalities for that kind of stuff, you know, where. It won't work something.

• 45:35Jocko Willink?

  I don't think I'm trying to think if I've thrown something. I really can't think of anything right now. There's some quote from some president who says like, he tells the story about he like threw a pen and then he had to go pick it up.

• 45:48Jocko Willink?

  That for some reason that always stuck with me as like, dude, you just did something dumb.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, and that's actually, that's funny because that's how I felt like after when I threw the glass. I was like, oh shit. But I didn't clean it up. I just was like, cause there was no reaction. It didn't work. So it's kind of like, oh yeah, I guess.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  It was outside. It was like kind of in the side of a parking lot or whatever. But so you ever seen that? You know, meme, we like memes. We're familiar with memes. So this is.

• 46:15Jocko Willink?

  Kind of meme game.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  Hell yeah. There's this old one where it's like two, two, like, you know, like a comic strip kind of thing to the two sided one. So you got one step, one and step two. So the first one is like me on Friday and it's like, fuck this shit. I don't need it. And this guy doing this and all papers flying everywhere. And then it says Monday and he's picking up the papers. It's really funny, but it's the same exact concept, you know, where it's like, yeah, you did all that theatrics, then now what? Fucking you gotta pick up that pen, you know?

• 46:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, generally speaking, those kind of dramatics, I mean, look, we're talking about people that have just been captured on the battlefield. There, there may be some level of.

• 46:56Jocko Willink?

  Impact.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:57Jocko Willink?

  But like you start throwing stuff around your house.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a kind of like a a big double down like gamble really. Cause like if it doesn't work and people are like, right, that was just dumb. Now you're even way more behind as far as your influence. I there was this guy, I was in seventh grade. He was a music teacher, Mr. Mckowski. And he uh,

• 47:20Speaker 01

  he was such a nice guy. And then one time he uh, he couldn't get control of the class. He was like too, he was like a pushover kind of guy. And kind of nerdy dude, right? Music teacher, he and so he started to like yell to try to get control of the class because just no one was listening. It wasn't like, you know, back. No, no, no. They're just, no one was really listening. And after a while, people were like, looking at him, kind of lose his temper like almost like they didn't notice he was even yelling. They're just like, oh, I guess he's like yelling, but they kept talking or whatever. Certain people started to notice, oh, look at this guy's like, it's kind of funny. Like he's losing his temper, this little guy, like, what's he gonna do? Freaking nothing like always, right? And he goes, he grabs a book and we had this tile floor.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  So he grabs this big book and he like tries to slam it on the ground to make this big boom sound. You know, when the, when a book hits something super smooth, it makes a big pop sound. So he did that and it wasn't that loud.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Everyone like kind of looked and they just started laughing. I was like, man, that is now he's in a worse position, you know? Now like it, now when he starts talking, they're gonna be like, bro, we can't even listen to this guy anymore. So yeah, you kind of gambling that way, right?

• 48:28Jocko Willink?

  I recommend you don't throw anything despite the recommendations here. The next one is fear up and it's in parentheses mild. This approach is better suited to the strong confidence type of interrogator. There's generally no need to raise the voice or reserve back to heavy handed table banging. And then the fear up mild approach must be credible.

• 48:50Jocko Willink?

  And then you get the fear down. This is what you were talking about earlier. Fear down approach. This technique is nothing more than calming the source and convincing him he will be properly and humanly treated, telling him the wars. The war for him is mercifully over. And he need not go into combat again. When used with a soothing calm tone of voice, this often creates rapport and usually nothing else is needed to get the source to cooperate. This is way better in my, in my experience. Just being cool is a good way to get it done. If the EPW is so frightened, he has withdrawn into a shell. This is what I was talking about earlier. Like I've seen people that are just like scared. They can't talk. An interrogator must break through to him. The interrogator can do this by putting himself on

• 49:34Jocko Willink?

  the same physical level as the source. This might require some physical contact. As the source relaxes and begins to respond to kindness, the interrogator can begin asking questions. This approach or technique can backfire if allowed to go too far. After convincing the source he has nothing to fear, he may cease to be afraid and may feel secure enough to resist the interrogator's pertinent questions. That's a good little point. Little dichotomy there. You can go too far with this stuff. And then you get into, so those are the fear methodologies. And then you get into the pride and ego approach. And we've talked about these before because these are pretty common. But, understanding them, not only for when you need to use them, but also when they're

• 50:17Jocko Willink?

  being used on you. It's a good thing to pay attention to. Pride and ego approach. This, the strategy of this approach is to trick the source into revealing desired information by goading or flattering him. It is effective with sources who have displayed weakness or feelings of inferiority. This is such a, such an obvious one. A real or imaginary deficiency voiced about the source, loyalty, loyalty, or his organization, or any other feature can provide a basis of this technique. The interrogator accuses the source of weakness or implies he's unable to do a certain thing. This type of source is also prone to excuses and reasons why he did not do a certain thing, often shifting blame to others. An example is opening the interrogation with the question,

• 51:00Jocko Willink?

  "Why did you surrender so easily when you could have escaped by crossing the nearby ford in the river?"

• 51:07Jocko Willink?

  The source is likely to provide a basis for further questions or reveal significant intelligence information if he attempts to explain his surrender in order to vindicate himself. He may give an answer such as, "No one could cross the ford because it's mined." You've just got a little intel.

• 51:24Jocko Willink?

  This technique can also be employed in another manner by flattering the source into admitting certain information in order to gain credit. For example, while interrogating a suspected saboteur, the interrogator states, "This was a smooth operation. I've seen many previous attempts fail. I bet you planned this. Who else but a clever person like you could have planned it? When did you first decide to do the job?" That's a little overacting, I think, or overriding.

• 51:53Jocko Willink?

  A problem with pride and ego approaches, it relies on trickery. The source will eventually realize he has been tricked and may refuse to cooperate further. If this occurs, the interrogator can easily move into fear-up approach and convince the source that the questions he has already answered have committed him, and it would be useless to resist further.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Is that how they got him on A Few Good Men? That's how they got Colonel Jessup, right?

• 52:16Jocko Willink?

  Very, very, I mean, at least in that vein, you know?

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I run my unit how I run my unit. Yeah.

• 52:25Jocko Willink?

  And, and kinda like belittling him to make him lash out. And when he lashed out, he admitted. Yeah, that's full, full-on ego down. I guess you'd say that's ego down. Ego up approach. This approach is effective on sources with little or no intelligence, or those have been looked on, looked down on for a long time. It's very effective on low-ranking enlisted personnel and junior-grade officers. This allows the source to finally show someone they do indeed have some brains. The source is constantly flattered into providing certain information in order to gain credit. This interrogator must take care to use a flattering, somewhat in awe tone of voice, and speak highly of the source through this, throughout this approach. This quickly produces

• 53:08Jocko Willink?

  positive feelings on the source's part, as he probably has been looking for this type of recognition all of his life. I've definitely seen that activity go down before.

• 53:22Jocko Willink?

  It goes into some body language here. Effective targets for a successful pride and ego-up approach are usually socially accepted reasons for flattery, such as appearance or good military bearing. The interrogator should closely watch the source's demeanor for indications the approach is working. Some indicators to look for are raising the head, a look of pride in the eyes, a swelling of the chest, stiffening of the back.

• 53:46Jocko Willink?

  And then you get into the ego down, pride down and ego down approach. This approach is based on attacking the source's sense of personal worth. Any source who shows any real or imagined inferiority or weakness about himself, loyalty to his organization, or captured under embarrassing circumstances can easily be broken with this approach technique.

• 54:07Jocko Willink?

  The objective is for the interrogator to pounce on the source's sense of pride by attacking his loyalty, intelligence, abilities, leadership qualities, slovenly appearance, or any other perceived weakness. This will usually goad the source into becoming defensive and he will try and convince the interrogator is wrong. In this attempt to redeem his pride, this source will usually involuntary provide pertinent information in attempting to vindicate himself.

• 54:33Jocko Willink?

  A source susceptible to this approach is also prone to make excuses and give reasons why he did or did not do a certain thing, often shifting the blame to others. If the interrogator uses a sarcastic, caustic tone of voice appropriate with appropriate expressions of distaste or disgust, the source will readily believe him. Possible targets for pride and ego down approach are the source's loyalty, technical competence, leadership abilities, social qualities, appearance.

• 55:01Jocko Willink?

  So, those are all just good.

• 55:06Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next up is futility. This is another approach. In this source, the interrogator convinces the source that resistance to questioning is futile. Cool.

• 55:16Jocko Willink?

  You're not finished here until you answer these questions. Everyone talks sooner or later. The futility of the battlefield situation, futility in the sense if the source does not mind talking about history, why should he mind talking about his missions? They're also history.

• 55:31Jocko Willink?

  Making the situation appear hopeless allows the source to rationalize his actions, especially if that action is cooperating with the interrogator. Yeah, you see this a lot with the police like, hey, it doesn't matter. We already know.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:47Jocko Willink?

  That's the futility or you're it's like, there's no point in resisting right now. You're already, we already got you on video. Which is similar to this next approach is which is we know all. To begin the interrogation, the interrogator asked questions based on known data. When the source hesitates, refused to answer or provides an incorrect or incomplete reply, the interrogator provides the detail answer, the detailed answer. That's a nice little trick, isn't it?

• 56:13Jocko Willink?

  Like, when did you show up here? Well, I don't know. Well, we have video of you showing up here at seven twenty eight.

• 56:24Jocko Willink?

  When the source begins to give accurate and complete information, the interrogator interjects questions designed to gain the needed information. Pretty straightforward. File and dossier. This is an approach. The file and dossier approach is used when the interrogator prepares a dossier containing all available information obtained from documents concerning the source or his organization. Careful arrangement of the material within the file may give the illusion it contains more data than is actually there. The file may be padded with extra paper if necessary. Index tabs with titles such as education, employment, criminal record, military service, and others are particularly effective.

• 57:05Jocko Willink?

  Do your prep work.

• 57:08Jocko Willink?

  And this is another one you see a lot of. Establish your identity. This approach is especially adaptable to interrogation. The interrogator insists the source has been correctly identified as an infamous individual wanted by higher authorities on serious charges and is not, and he is not the person he purports to be. In an effort to clear himself of this allegation, the source makes a genuine and detailed effort to establish or substantiate his true identity, identity. In so doing, he may provide the interrogator with information and leads for further development.

• 57:45Jocko Willink?

  The establish your identity approach was effective in Vietnam with the Vietcong and in operations just causing desert storm. I wonder, they're gonna have so much more, so much more. We have 20 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I gotta get the updated manual and see how all this stuff, see what they learned. Because just cause, like they're talking about that, really? Or desert storm, those are short operations. Repetition. This approach is used to induce cooperation from a hostile source. In one variation of this approach, the interrogator listens carefully to a source's answers to a question, then repeats the question and answer

• 58:26Jocko Willink?

  several times. Dude, this is just like going at someone, which is also what rapid fire is. Rapid fire involves, this is the next one. Rapid fire involves a psychological ploy based on the principle that everyone likes to be heard when he speaks. It's confusing to be interrupted in mid-sentence with an unrelated question. So you're just going bam bam bam bam. And this is my favorite one. Silent. This approach may be successful and used against the nervous or confident source. It's interesting, both the nervous source and the confident source. When employing this technique, the interrogator says nothing to the source but looks him squarely in

• 59:08Jocko Willink?

  the eye, preferably with a slight smile on his face. It's important not to look away from the source, but force him to break eye contact first. It doesn't say why that's important. It's like the old fight, you know, square off. You know, oh, he broke eye contact. He's gonna lose. Really? Not so much. It's a psychological thing, but I don't think it means very much. I've definitely, you go those videos of guys that are in the face off, and the one guy's all super aggro in the face off and gets knocked out in 38 seconds.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of that. I mean, I would think nowadays, people know about that kind of stuff. You know, like the psychology, the eye contact, whatever. So they'll just put on the, put on the act, you know?

• 59:56Jocko Willink?

  Remember when Jon Jones would just like look over there? Like, just like look to a different area?

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  That's what, actually, that kind of backs up what I'm saying, where it's like, it's so obvious that that has nothing to do with how you perform in the fight. That it's like this whole separate thing that they're gonna make a mockery out of it, you know, kind of a thing?

• 1:00:13Jocko Willink?

  Dude, what about when Rose, Thug Rose was just like staring and just reciting? The Lord's Prayer, I think, or something like, that was, that was pretty impressive. That was a good stand up. Remember Vandelay back in the day?

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:27Jocko Willink?

  He had the most hype stare downs, right?

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And yeah, and he would win too, you know? So it's like, but again, it's like the, the, you know, I mean, the interrogation thing anyway. It seems like that's kind of the natural psychology, the natural flow of like psychology into behavior, you know, kind of a thing. But like in fighting, since it's so all well-known, that it becomes this whole separate thing, you know? Where it's like, some people, they'll just make a show out of the stare down. Like, so you ever, you ever seen the, I think it was like, what's the one, the girl, the, uh? Waters, I think her last name is? The, the karate hottie one? It was like her and then it might've been Paige or I don't know, I forget who. But they would, they would do like some dance together. You know how they dance and they point to the other and the other one dances, they point back?

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  So it becomes this thing. So this whole stare down is like not that anymore. It's a whole different thing.

• 1:01:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, in mo- in many cases.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sure it plays itself out in other little like less known areas.

• 1:01:25Jocko Willink?

  I remember one time too, like when Rhonda was, Rhonda Rousey was coming, kind of, I think it was against Holly Holm, Holly Holmes. And she was acting all crazy and like acting all aggressive and Holly just looked like a, a serial killer, basically, just like staring back at her.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  The one that she won?

• 1:01:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the one that, the one that Holly won. And it was like, okay. Maybe some of that over-aggressiveness was like a, a little, you know, trying to.

• 1:01:51Jocko Willink?

  Trying to psych themselves up.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, hype themselves up.

• 1:01:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense, but I I suspect at the end of the day, there are now two different things. How you handle yourself in the stare down and the weigh in has very little bearing on how you perform. Since they're so separated now, so sometimes it'd be like, oh, wow, you see she was ready. You could tell hmm. She had an effective stare down scenario for that event specifically. And, you know, maybe there's some correlation, but there's no reliable, reliable way to tell. You know, that's what it seems like. I don't know.

• 1:02:24Jocko Willink?

  Check. Continue on with this silent approach. The source may become nervous, begin to shift his chair, cross and recross his legs and look away. He may ask questions, but the interrogator should not answer until he is ready to break the silence. The source may blurt out such questions as, come on now, what do you want with me? When the interrogator is ready to break the silence, he may do so with some nonchalant questions such as, you plan this operations for a long time, didn't you? Was it your idea? The interrogator must be patient when using this technique. It may appear the technique is not succeeding, but usually will when given a reasonable chance. I was like a long time ago, I was buying a car with my wife or whatever.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:03:06Jocko Willink?

  You know, we're doing the deal. We're doing the negotiation and I'm just silent, right? My wife's super uncomfortable like with silence, but I don't care.

• 1:03:18Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, I forget what the, what kind of initiated the silence, you know? Whether it was like, well, what, you know, well, how much do you think the car is worth? Well, I don't know what question, but I just sat there. And there was just silence.

• 1:03:38Jocko Willink?

  And afterwards, my wife was like, I don't know how you do that. I would hate to like deal with you. You're a psychopath. And I'm like, well, they came down, didn't they? They got, we got what we wanted.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  It worked.

• 1:03:48Jocko Willink?

  And she was like, yeah, but that doesn't mean you're not a psycho. I said, well, fair enough. We can roll with that.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I still, again, I feel like in these, um.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  You know, when that part of it is so obviously known where

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  it's less likely they think like, oh, this is part of the theatrics of it all. You know, there's certain circumstances where it's pretty obvious that there's a good chance there's some theatrics going on with the eye contact or the, oh, you know, like, you know, like a firm handshake, you know, that whole thing, right? Oh, you're firm handshake. Where back in the day, that made sense because it was just a normal, natural kind of part of interaction or whatever, like the initial part of whatever. But now it's so well known, like, yeah, you want a firm hand. So sometimes you shake like these young guys' hands and they're doing it like all hard. Like, bro, you're like a small dude. Like, you don't have to like squeeze my hand all hard to shake it normal, you know, kind of a thing. But you can tell they're putting extras on it to make some kind of specific impression consciously, you know? So it's like, bro, it doesn't even serve that purpose anymore.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  It serves a whole different purpose. See what I'm saying?

• 1:04:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Unless someone doesn't know. Deal.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  Exactly right.

• 1:04:55Jocko Willink?

  But kind of, we all know the deal right now.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  That's the point right there, where there's certain times where it's kind of like it's more known now, you know, like the eye contact thing or the stare down or the, you know, the handshake, whatever. Even the negotiation part, like that's becoming more and more well known, you know?

• 1:05:11Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, people definitely know. The weird thing is, though, is it still is functional.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that, you know what, and this is why I think, I don't know, but it feels like negotiation, and there are other things too. It's so vast, there's so many approaches and little details. I don't know how complex it is, but it's, there's so much to it that there's so much known, yes, but there's so much not known. And there's so much subtlety and technique and all this other stuff. So it's kind of like, yeah, you might be doing, you could actually do the, what do you call it, like the reverse psychology? You could, you could act like you're doing this approach, but you're really doing this other approach because you know that they're going to pick up on this approach when you throw that, you know, as more of like a feint. See what I'm saying? So it kind of does that. I mean, there's that part of it, I think.

• 1:06:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think too, there's like a more modern version of negotiation, especially like when you're buying stuff or where people recognize that.

• 1:06:11Jocko Willink?

  You've got to be more strategic and you've got to be like, oh, look, if I rip off Echo right now on buying this car, he's going to tell 10 of his friends and like, no one's going to buy a car with me again, right?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Right, like, sales is another one.

• 1:06:21Jocko Willink?

  Right, whereas if I'm like, hey, you're a client, I need to take care of you. Of course, you know, I need to make money, right? Like, we can come up with a more sort of equal deal than back in the day. Like, when I joined the Navy, when I first got to San Diego, like, if you went down to the National City Mile of Cars,

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:46Jocko Willink?

  It was mayhem. Like, dude, a sailor would walk onto the lot and there'd be sharks on him, ready to sell him a shitty car at 24.99% interest. It was mayhem. It's not, I personally don't think it's that, it's like that anymore. I think people recognize like, oh, yeah, then we have a bad reputation with every sailor on that ship or whatever. He's going to tell everyone he got ripped off and they're going to hate us. Whereas if I'm cool to him, give him a good deal, he's going to go tell his friends. And I think people just become more strategic about sales.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:19Jocko Willink?

  There, probably some of it has to do with the fact that communication is so much more vast and webbed now.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:27Jocko Willink?

  And you can do a Yelp review and you can, there's so many ways to overcome. Well, they used to be like, hey, you drove off the lot, dude, no, I was never going to see you again.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Even, even like those high pressure, like, you know, the old school sale, selling movies, like, stock market stuff or whatever. It's like the old school ones are like real, like, they're dashing and fawn and, and, you know, high pressure, like, that kind of stuff. Nowadays, it doesn't work like that. In fact, nowadays, there's this big wave of like this, essentially, it's just this collaboration, you know, where they, they want to kind of build this rapport and relationship in a genuine way. And in fact, the more genuine, the better. Yeah, not this, like, even they frown upon small talk. They play, oh, so how's the weather over there? They frown on that because it's not genuine, you know? So it's like, kind of the more genuine you can get. The better.

• 1:08:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, definitely the strategic approach because thinking about if I sell you a car and I kind of take care of you.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna, you're gonna give me five referrals or three referrals and that's gonna do way better than I jacked you for an extra 300 bucks.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's not to mention, actually, to me, and I don't, I don't know, but it feels like that's secondary. That logical part is secondary compared to like, hey, I like this guy. This sales guy is not pushy. He understands me. He's listening to me like, bro, I'll freaking buy whatever this guy, because I believe I trust him. I trust this guy. I like him, you know, kind of a thing, not to mention all the Yelp reviews and all the stuff that I'm probably gonna give him and like all this stuff. You know, so it's like if the sales guy knows, like, hey, I, I really want to build a relationship with this guy for this short time I have genuinely. It's, that feels better and more effective. And then not to mention the Yelp reviews and all the secondary benefits.

• 1:09:06Jocko Willink?

  But back in the day, bro.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:09:08Jocko Willink?

  Back in the day, it was different. It was a different game. It was a different game back in the day. I'm sure there's still some of that and there has to be some of that, right?

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would imagine. I mean, shoot, they say a car, used car salesman, that expression, they say it for a reason, you know?

• 1:09:24Jocko Willink?

  But it seems to be fading.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  It seems to be.

• 1:09:27Jocko Willink?

  Because you just can't get away with that stuff anymore. At least it certainly appears that you can't.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  It appears that way, yeah.

• 1:09:32Jocko Willink?

  But what other arenas, though, are like that kind of sales?

• 1:09:40Jocko Willink?

  You know what? There's a whole.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  Door to door?

• 1:09:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was gonna do this door to door, like solar. You ever have those people come to your house? Like they'll come to your house like, hey, I'm like, I already have solar, so.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:49Jocko Willink?

  We're good. You can, you don't have to hang out here.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  Well, sometime, okay, so I will admit like I'm kinda, it's fun to listen to.

• 1:09:56Jocko Willink?

  The pitch?

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  That say, well, yes, yes, and subsequently, but that, that like, I mean, how there's like salespeople out there. Like who kind of that's their jam. They just kind of promote, give you tips on how to sell and how to do this. So, and a lot of it has to do with psychology, all this stuff. So it's, it is fun, yes, to hear the pitch. I don't want them to come and hear the pitch, but when they're here, it's interesting to hear the little techniques like, oh, you learned that technique. Or like, for example, one of the techniques is. Uh, I think they call it social proof. But basically what they do is they say, hey, you know, freaking Fred? Like your neighbor Fred, like two doors down here or whatever. Meanwhile, they might have got their name because of, you know, however, like they say, oh, I'm John. What's your name? Okay, cool, cool. Or they know from public records, whatever. They know the, and they act like they know him, right?

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  And they're like, yeah, you know, like we just, um, we just hooked them up and they're saving, you know? So it's kind of like, oh, wait, it worked for a friend that I know. So it must work for me, right? That's like the approach or whatever, but they say it and I'm like, I know that technique. You know? But it is interesting, but I can see how it works though. A hundred percent.

• 1:10:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And even like I was saying, like I was buying this car for, for my wife back in the day and like it worked. The, the one of the, if you're actually buying something. You gotta be able to walk away. That's like, you gotta not really want the thing.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:14Jocko Willink?

  Or you got to at least convince yourself that you don't really want the thing. If you really want the thing, you're not in a good position to negotiate, right? If you really, really want it and they can smell that. So now you're like, oh.

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  Bro, a good guy, and this was like, uh, it seemed good before I knew it, but. A good sales guy, let's say a car, for example. He'll make you feel like you want it even more. Like if you came in like, I gotta be like, I don't really want, I gotta convince myself. I don't really want it. Take it or leave it, you know, therefore I can, you know, I'm not trapped into emotionally trapped into getting this, you know, committing to getting this thing. And they can kind of create that world where you do want it a lot.

• 1:11:52Jocko Willink?

  I'll tell you, oh, I got another guy coming to look at it this afternoon.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:56Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  Shoot, if you miss out on this.

• 1:11:59Jocko Willink?

  You know what? If you don't want it, it's fine. Cause I got another guy. He's coming in this afternoon and he's, he's been looking all over for this one.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  So there's the.

• 1:12:07Jocko Willink?

  You ever go to a website where there's a clock? Like no, no, a number of like, we have 27 in stock, 24 in stock, 23 in stock, 22 in stock. You're like.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. On Amazon they do that. Two more in stock. They'll say two more in stock. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, man, and I, as long as you watch out for this. So there, there's a, there's a guy I worked with. I think I told you the story, forgive me if I have, but it's significant. So there's this guy I worked with at, when I was a valet. Actually, he used to be a car salesman and he says, yeah, there's like little techniques on how you, how you say things. So he's like, um, one of the things I would say is like blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, you say the pitch or whatever. And say, yeah, let me just check these numbers or whatever and see if we can't get you driving home in your brand new car today. So what he did is get you driving home. So now that person imagines themselves driving home in a brand new car today. Instead of, oh, to get you the deal, like get you the deal. It's too arbitrary.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  I don't see a world where the deal is improving my life. You know, it's the deal is a deal. It can apply to any, uh, apply to anything, but me driving home in my brand new car today. That's hard to, that's hard to be like, no, I don't care about that. You know, when you, when they plant it in your brain like that. But if you know, if it's, if you know it's a technique, you can't fight against it.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  Or you have a, a better, a balanced footing, you know, to make the right decision. It's true, bro.

• 1:13:29Jocko Willink?

  It is true.

• 1:13:32Jocko Willink?

  All right. Escaping sales going into now the questioning phase. The interrogation effort has two primary goals to obtain information and to report it. Developing, using good questioning, developing and using good questioning techniques. And enable the interrogator to obtain accurate and pertinent information by following a logical sequence. And then it goes into direct, follow-up, non-pertinent, repeated and control.

• 1:14:04Jocko Willink?

  Direct questions. Questions should be presented in a logical sequence to avoid neglecting significant topics. And again, this is getting into like the interrogation. And military part of it where you don't want to miss certain pertinent topics.

• 1:14:19Jocko Willink?

  The interrogator must consider the probable response of the source to a particular question or line of questioning. And should not, if at all possible, ask direct questions likely to evoke a refusal to answer. Or antagonize the source. This is like the old sales thing where they're just trying to get you to say yes a bunch of times.

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:35Jocko Willink?

  And it like, conditions you to say yes. How much truth is there to that?

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know how much there is now. Well, now the, the hot, new hotness is get them to say no. Well, Chris Woss was the first one that I heard say this, but they say this in sales now too. Get them to know because they don't commit to anything. Like anytime you, like a person, what do you call it? Prospect or whatever they call them. Anytime you say yes, as a prospect, you feel a small element of like being trapped. Because you committed to something by saying yes. Saying no is like, ah, no commitment. So you get them to say no. So they just inverse the language. So they'll be like, hey, are you against, um, you know, me telling you about this new opportunity for five minutes? Are you against that? You know, so it's either no, I'm not against anything. I don't, I'm not committed to, you know, so it's easier to say no. But what did you do? You just said yes to freaking giving up five minutes. See what I'm saying?

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  So it's like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe again, if it's a different time, I guess, the, what would they say? The psychology behind it was. If they say yes, it means like you're kind of on the same page. Like yes, yes, yes. Get them to yes. Yeah. Like, yeah. It's like you're getting them to slowly commit to something.

• 1:15:43Jocko Willink?

  Yep. I bet it makes them feel like they're more in control. Right? Cause I, I, I can say no if I have to. So is this a bad time?

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:15:52Jocko Willink?

  That's a different question than, it sounds, if, do you have, do you have five minutes right now? It's hard to say yes to that.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. So if they say yes, so getting them to yes is you trap them and they feel trapped. Especially to a stranger and a, or a cold call or something like this. But no, is like, that's why they say, is it a bad time? And it's like, if I say yes, it's a bad time. It's like, I'm committing to the bad time almost kind of a thing. It's way easier. It's just easier. It's like less commitment saying no, you know?

• 1:16:24Jocko Willink?

  Check. Getting into the questions. Non pertinent questions is the one that it starts with. Non pertinent questions are used to conceal the interrogation's objectives or strengthen rapport from the source. They may be used to break the source's concentration, particularly if the interrogator suspects the source or suspects the source is lying. It's hard for a source to convince, to be a convincing liar if his concentration is frequently interrupted. Okay. So you're gonna, you're gonna have some random questions in there, some non pertinent questions. Repeated questions. Repeated questions ask the source for the same information obtained in response to earlier questions. They may be exact repetitions of the previous question, or the previous question may be rephrased or otherwise disguised. The use of repeated

• 1:17:07Jocko Willink?

  questions may develop a topic the source had refused to talk about earlier. Repeated questions may also be used to check source reliability, ensure accuracy of important details, return to a topical area for further questioning. Okay.

• 1:17:24Jocko Willink?

  Control questions are developed from recently confirmed information that is not likely to have changed. They are used to check the truthfulness of the source's responses and should be mixed in with other questions throughout the interrogation. This is a, I would say that I utilize control questions, but it's more like controlled questions about things that I agree with you on. So like, if I'm, if we've gotta go do, if I agree with you on A, B, C, and D, I won't come in and say, hey, what's going on with D? And you tell me what's going on. I'm like, I don't like that. But I go, hey, what's going on with A? And you tell me, go, oh, that sounds good. What about B? And you could tell me, and

• 1:18:07Jocko Willink?

  I go, okay, that's cool. And then I said, what about C? And you tell me what, how you're gonna handle that? And I go, that's a good plan. And by now, you and I are bros. You know, and now I go, hey, what about D? And you tell me what you're gonna do. And I'm like, hey, I'm not, are you sure that might be the best approach to that? You go, well, why do you say that? And see, I've developed a nice little, so it's like I'm gonna confirm some stuff that we agree upon before I jump and hit you with something that I know we're got a disagreement on.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  It kinda gives me the feeling of like, hey, you're on my side.

• 1:18:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Overall, you know?

• 1:18:39Jocko Willink?

  We're down.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's like I can, I can create this psychological separation between like, You being against me or for me, you know, like you're not against me, you're just against this very specific thing.

• 1:18:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, by the way, I'm with you over here. I'm with you over here. I'm with you over here. This thing, wait, why aren't we aligned? We should be.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:57Jocko Willink?

  We kind of agree on most stuff, right?

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:59Jocko Willink?

  A, B, and C.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Could be, would be you just confused a little bit. I can clarify, you know, or maybe I got it wrong. I don't know. You're on my side. We're here together doing this thing, you know, kind of a feeling.

• 1:19:08Jocko Willink?

  So those are like control questions. I like it. Prepared questions are used primarily when dealing with information of a technical nature or a specific topic, which requires the interrogator to formulate questions beforehand. Okay, fair enough. That's probably a good idea. By the way, all these things, role playing, and doing a little role playing before you run in to talk to somebody that you need to talk to about something. I should probably go do a role play with my peer or my boss before, if I got a fire echo, and I roll in there and I want to talk to you about your performance and why you're getting fired, I better role play that a little bit, make sure I got some good answers. Questions to avoid. Interrogators should avoid the following types of questions. Leading questions.

• 1:19:51Jocko Willink?

  Leading questions require the source to answer yes or no. They do not elicit narrative answers. They also prompt the source to answer the question in a way he thinks the interrogator wants to hear it.

• 1:20:07Jocko Willink?

  So, opening up a narrative,

• 1:20:11Jocko Willink?

  and allowing the person to articulate things the way they want to articulate them, those are very positive way. The minute you say, and you see politicians do this a lot, because the reporter will be like, it's a yes or no question, or actually, you know, the congressional hearings, they do that. There'll be some witness, like,

• 1:20:27Jocko Willink?

  on the stand in Congress, and the congressman will be like, well, do you think that blah, blah, blah? And the person will be like, well, you know, it's a yes or no question. And the people, the, the, the people in the stand don't want to give a yes or no answer.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, because they call it, there's a certain, I mean, there's a bunch of them, obviously, but there's a certain kind of question, there's a name for it. Where, and the classic example is like, how long have you been beating your wife? So it's like, wait a sec, you know, there's all this other stuff that may or may not be true loaded in the question, you know, kind of a thing. And you're like, no, no, it's a simple answer online. A lot of times these questions are yes or no questions. Like, um, odd, did you know about the this and that, this and that? And you're like, wait, but this is true, this is not true. And those other three things, those aren't true either. So did I know about, you know, so it's like, there's more to it than that. They're like, yes or no question, technically.

• 1:21:22Jocko Willink?

  Did you see the university presidents getting interrogated by the congressional members? About the use of language, anti Semitic language at Harvard, MIT. And I think Brown, maybe university?

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, I didn't see that.

• 1:21:41Jocko Willink?

  Or maybe it wasn't Brown, but it was definitely Harvard and MIT because the Harvard, or maybe it was Penn. Anyways, the Harvard president was the one that got, well, she said she resigned, but she got fired. But when you watch that, it was very strange to see how, how confused they were about the situation. And not real, and by the way, when I say they were confused, they didn't realize how stupid they looked. Like that one president from Harvard, thought she was doing great. You could see this little smirk she had on her face and she's like looking at, as if in her mind, she's just doing this awesome job.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:25Jocko Willink?

  And anyone that's watching it is cringing, going, what are you doing? What do you, what kind of answers are you giving right now? What is wrong with you? It was very strange to watch, but you could see that from the smirk on her face and the smirk on the other, uh, women's faces that were supposed to be answering these questions. They thought that they were really smart and thought that they were just kicking ass up there. It was, it's kind of crazy to watch how just totally off base they were.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:22:57Jocko Willink?

  Negative questions, these are questions, types of questions you should avoid again. Negative questions should never be used during an interrogation. They imply the source should reply in the negative. And this sometimes confuses or leads the source to provide false information. For example, you're not in the first company, are you?

• 1:23:16Jocko Willink?

  Negative question usually require additional questions. Okay, that makes sense. Compound questions, this is what you were just talking about. Before you were captured today, were you traveling north or south? Like a compound question that could have correct parts and incorrect parts, all in the same question. Gotta watch out for those.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  That negative question is true, like even in everyday life. Where, and a big one that we just overlook and gloss over, because we know what we mean, is when, um, when you say, hey, hey, do you mind passing that? Do you mind passing the drink or whatever? Do you mind passing the fork, right? Typical answer is, oh, yeah, yeah. They'll say yes, right? Yes, I'll pass the fork. That's not what I asked, though. Technically, I asked, do you mind if you pass the fork? So the answer should be no, if you don't mind passing the fork. So you can say yes or no, but that is, again, like, we just gloss over it because we understand. But when you go deep, you go into interrogation, or you go in a situation where the answer actually matters for the record, or whatever. Bro, they can jam you up, you know? You literally asked one thing.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  The guy knew the answer, essentially, gave the wrong answer because of your confusing question. It's true, man.

• 1:24:25Jocko Willink?

  Vague questions do not have enough information for the source to understand exactly what's being asked, so don't use them. And that's what it goes into there.

• 1:24:37Jocko Willink?

  And then it just talks, you know, it's got a section in here about recording information. Several reasons to record information obtained during interrogations. The most important is to ensure information can be reported completely and accurately. Recorded information may also be used to refresh the interrogator's memory on a topic covered earlier, such as when returning to a topic after exploiting a hot lead. Check responses to repeated questions, point out inconsistencies of the source, gain the cooperation of other sources, compare with information received from other sources. So it goes into a big thing about taking notes and recording and all that, so, pretty straightforward. And then it gets into the termination phase, which is when you're going to end the interrogation. When is necessary or prudent, the interrogator will terminate the interrogation.

• 1:25:18Jocko Willink?

  There are many ways to conduct a termination, but the following points must be conveyed to the source. The approaches used to break the source must be reinforced. Any promised incentives should be rendered. The reinforcement must be sincere and convincing as the source may be interrogated again. The source must be told the information he gave will be checked for truthfulness and accuracy. His reaction to this statement should be closely monitored. The source must be told he will be spoken to again by the same or another interrogator. And any identification or other documents, personal property, or other material must be returned to the source or be given to the evacuation guard as appropriate. It's more of a technical thing.

• 1:26:01Jocko Willink?

  And then it says, what, this is the last point for that we're going to cover. The termination procedures, whatever the reason for terminating, the interrogator must remember that there's a possibility someone may want to question the source at a later date. For that reason, he should terminate without any loss of rapport when possible. He offers the opportunity for the source to change or add any information he's given. So you want to end on a good note. Essentially is what it's saying, which is a good, a good policy to keep. Interacting with other human beings. It's like we, I said in the middle of this thing, when I'm going to communicate with someone, I want that to improve our relationship.

• 1:26:45Jocko Willink?

  My interaction with another human being, I want our relationship to get better. That's what my goal is.

• 1:26:51Jocko Willink?

  And it's important to think about the way that you ask questions. And how you behave and what history is in the situation. All impacts that interaction that you're about to have. So think about that. Think about that. Because every interaction you have either builds relationship or breaks down. I suppose there's a small amount that keeps it neutral, sure. But most of the time you interact with another person, you make things a little bit better. Or you make things a little bit worse, you make, sometimes you make them a lot worse. Sometimes you make them a lot better. But you certainly want to improve the relationship, build the relationship, not break it down.

• 1:27:27Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing. If you're aware of this, if you're thinking about it, just like you're talking about all these little sales techniques. If you're aware of them. You're going to be that much better off. So if you actually consider and are aware of the way you're interacting with other people, you're going to be better off. You'd be better off in anything, everything that you do. There's no time when having an antagonistic relationship with other people helps. I should say almost no time. Maybe if that person is like a serial killer or whatever.

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:59Jocko Willink?

  But other than that, people you work with, family members, friends, people at the gym, people in your jujitsu class, people in the other department that you sometimes work with, the contractors that are helping out your company at the time. There's no time where having an antagonistic relationship with those people is going to help you. Your boss, your peers. There's no time. There's no time. There's no time where you have to interact with another human being and you treat them bad or you don't get along that it's going to benefit you. This doesn't, it just doesn't happen. Look, is there some niche freaking moment in time? Sure, there is. I don't know what it is, you know, the person was about to

• 1:28:41Jocko Willink?

  make a call on who he wants to send somewhere and he didn't like you, so he didn't send you and that plane crashed.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's not.

• 1:28:48Jocko Willink?

  Exactly. But generally speaking, the vast majority of the time, if you think about how you interact with other people, you can improve those relationships and you're going to be better off across the board. That's what we're doing. All right. What do we got?

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  What else are we doing?

• 1:29:05Jocko Willink?

  We're doing, we're getting after it.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:29:07Jocko Willink?

  Kind of in a big way. Did you train this weekend? I didn't see you training this weekend.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  I did not.

• 1:29:11Jocko Willink?

  The jujitsu, the jujitsu.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:29:13Jocko Willink?

  No jujitsu. Did you lift, I hope?

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  I lifted. I had one, I did a lifting session on Saturday that got interrupted by a friend coming over and you know, so I, you know.

• 1:29:23Jocko Willink?

  He was coming over at five in the morning, huh?

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  I don't lift at five. All right. My five in the morning lifts are few and far between, although I do do them from time to time. Nonetheless, lifting is lifting. And you even said last time when we were here freaking lifting, you're stronger in the afternoon.

• 1:29:42Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 1:29:42Speaker 01

  I don't. I think it might be, and I, I agree with that. I didn't say anything when you said it, but I'm like, yeah, bro, that's really true. In my experience in the morning, sometimes yeah, mentally you might feel better or clearer and it's better, it's a better time to get it out of the way and all that is true too. So you pick your battles.

• 1:29:56Jocko Willink?

  Benefits outweigh the negatives for me personally.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And again, that, and ultimately it depends on, on who you are and how your day is structured, all this stuff, but. When I lift in the afternoon, sometimes mentally I'll be like, whatever, but physically I feel stronger. Maybe because like the blood's flowing more or something. I don't know, whatever it is.

• 1:30:15Jocko Willink?

  There's like actual kinda, what is it hormonal reasons that are, things are going and the way your, your system is working, that the afternoon is gonna be better for you.

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, isn't there like two spikes in test or some natural test or something like that? Yeah, but I always wonder like, well, what if you wake up at a different time than the normal person? Then won't those spikes come at different times? Or maybe it has to do with the like the sun and all this. Hey man, this, this whole thing goes deep. But as long as you're lifting, you're good to go.

• 1:30:47Jocko Willink?

  That's the main thing.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  As long as you're exercising.

• 1:30:49Jocko Willink?

  Caught up in like where the sun is in the sky and what time you're lifting or you could lift.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:54Jocko Willink?

  Before the sun comes up, my recommendation, by the way.

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:30:59Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you're gonna need fuel. Nonetheless, I say jockofuel.com. Get you some clean. Get you some good, clean fuel. Get the hydrate, get the greens. My recommendation is mix creatine into your greens. Echoes is mixing into your hydrate. You can go either way. I'm good with either way.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  Or all three.

• 1:31:20Jocko Willink?

  Maybe all three of the above. I have put all three together. It's good, by the way.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  See, you've mentioned greens probably like the last five to six times that this has come up. And it kinda goes to show like, you know how like, I don't know, I forget what it's called, but it's a thing. It's like an actual phenomenon where like you hear something like enough, it just starts to influence you, whatever. So I'm like, I guess I'm putting greens in my thing. Like I feel it coming closer and closer to me actually doing adding the greens.

• 1:31:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you haven't, you don't, you don't take the greens?

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  I don't take the greens.

• 1:31:48Jocko Willink?

  Why?

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  I mean, I take the greens from time to time. It's not on my daily though. The daily is hydrate and creatine in the morning, every single day.

• 1:31:56Jocko Willink?

  Why, why, why do you take hydrate in the morning?

• 1:31:59Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:32:00Jocko Willink?

  You haven't sweated yet.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  No, you lose hydration when you sleep.

• 1:32:04Jocko Willink?

  That's true. Good, good point.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:06Jocko Willink?

  Point. Yep.

• 1:32:07Speaker 01

  But yeah, that's how, you know, creatine, boom, hydrate, good morning.

• 1:32:11Jocko Willink?

  All right. That's what we're do. Get to, the greens taste good. That's one of the little bonuses. It's not like you have to choke them down. It's not like you have to do a shot of tequila. Did you drink tequila back in the day?

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:23Jocko Willink?

  It tastes so bad.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's one of those things. It's an experience. I mean, yeah, sure. A lot of people don't like it. I don't think it tastes bad. I think it's like, it doesn't taste worse or better than any other freaking hard alcohol in and of itself. In fact, it tastes a little bit better.

• 1:32:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  You get the salt, you get the tequila, you get the lemon. It's a whole thing. It's like a thing.

• 1:32:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I was just drinking.

• 1:32:43Speaker 01

  Just palm tequila.

• 1:32:45Jocko Willink?

  Freaking idiot.

• 1:32:46Speaker 01

  Brother worse is.

• 1:32:47Jocko Willink?

  I smell that stuff now and I'm like, what is, how can we, how have, how have people been convinced to drink this? To pay money to drink this stuff. Taste, smells terrible.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, alcohol, obviously, even beer, you know, there's like beer and tasting and all this stuff or whatever. And they, oh, this beer is good or whatever. Taste in and of itself is just a small, teeny tiny part of it, and it's not even that good. Like beer doesn't taste good. Everyone knows that. Vodka doesn't taste good. Tequila doesn't taste good.

• 1:33:16Jocko Willink?

  There are people though, that legitimately, like if you put them on a lie detector test, they truly do like the taste of beer, of wine, of some like Scotch or whatever.

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, fully, but it's more of a holistic thing. It's not the taste in and of itself. It's the whole experience. So like, you know, like the, like a tasting, right? Like a, if you go to wine tasting, there's more to it than just tasting wine. There's technique, there's the environment, there's the cup or the glass, whatever. There's the, it's a whole thing. It's a whole experience. So the taste of tequila, the taste of vodka, the taste of wine has to do with more than just the taste. If it only do the taste, you'd be like, no, this tastes junk. Chocolate milk tastes good. Mountain Dew tastes good.

• 1:33:57Jocko Willink?

  Milk tastes good.

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  Exactly right. So, yeah, so as far as the tequila, it's the experience. So you add, again, the lemon, usually with your friends. Actually, not to go too deep on the tequila thing, the reason that most people who really hate tequila specifically is because they had a bad experience with tequila in the past. So now it has that freaking mark on their brain that like, this is just toxic. They, it reminds them, like neurologically, it reminds them of like throwing up, like probably more violently.

• 1:34:25Jocko Willink?

  PTSD, exactly right. Tequila stress disorder.

• 1:34:30Jocko Willink?

  I don't think I ever did that with tequila. Gosh, but once you don't drink, alcohol just seems terrible.

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:39Jocko Willink?

  And this, well, the smell of it.

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  Well, you know why people, we like alcohol though, and why there's addiction and like all this stuff. So back in the, this is the theory, that's what I read. So through our evolution, it was, it was the, the people who could metabolize, ferment like alcohol, who could metabolize it. And we know there's seven calories per gram of alcohol that you can metabolize as energy. So, you know, you get like rotten fruits or, you know, all this other stuff where, where the fermentation process produces alcohol molecules. The, the organisms that could metabolize that survived. Now, you know, you get different areas. So now nowadays how it plays itself, genetics all mixed up now. So

• 1:35:24Speaker 01

  their alcohol has like, the molecules go and they, they bind to certain receptors or whatever. So the more receptors you have, the more you'll be like an alcoholic, something along those lines. My little physiology is very rusty.

• 1:35:39Jocko Willink?

  You don't need alcohol. I'm here to tell you right now. You know what you do need? Jocko Fuel.

• 1:35:44Speaker 01

  Protein.

• 1:35:45Jocko Willink?

  You need protein. Maybe you need some energy, get some go. Anyways, you guys know the deal. jockofuel.com, go check it out. Also, you can get it at Wawa, Vitamin Shoppe, GNC, Military Commissaries, Afees, Hanford, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakeford, Shop Right, HEB, Meyer, Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Lifetime Fitness, Shields, and small gyms everywhere. People, we got all kinds of people that are selling Jocko Fuel in their gyms now. If you want to sell Jocko Fuel in your gym, go to, email [email protected]. That's what we got for you. Also, if you need gear, if you need clothing, cause from what I read, if you had clothing, you could survive more.

• 1:36:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:30Jocko Willink?

  Cause you wouldn't freeze.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, the winters and the, yeah, the weather for sure.

• 1:36:34Jocko Willink?

  And we make clothing here in America. OriginUSA.com. Go get yourself some jeans, some boots, get yourself a rash guard. Get yourself some workout clothes, get yourself some hunt gear, whatever you need. We got you. We got you. OriginUSA.com, made in America. That's what we're doing.

• 1:36:53Jocko Willink?

  Get yourself some freedom. Get yourself some Origin USA.

• 1:36:57Speaker 01

  It's true. Also Jocko's Store. Discipline equals freedom. You want to represent, we're all on the path. We're representing on the path is where you get your shirts and hats and hoodies. We also have shorts on there. I don't mention that all the time, but we've got some board shorts. That are kinda hybrid-y. They have the stretch to them so you can work out in them. Good. All good.

• 1:37:18Jocko Willink?

  Hybrid-y.

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're hybrid-ish. Um, what's the date today? So we should already have socks. And quick flip hoodies, by the way. If we don't, they come in soon. So, you know, be on the lookout for that. Also the short locker, new design on your shirt every month. Subscription scenario. It's a good one. People seem to like those designs. Can represent pretty hardcore with those. Check that out if you want. So yeah, JacoStore.com.

• 1:37:46Jocko Willink?

  Also, check out PrimalBeef.com or ColoradoCraftBeef.com. So you can get some steak, some ground beef, some burgers. I'm about to go have a burger. How you like that? I guess what I had last night for dinner. Burgers.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:01Jocko Willink?

  Three burger patties with some grilled onions.

• 1:38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:04Jocko Willink?

  My wife made enough grilled onions to supply an army.

• 1:38:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. Good move. Brother, so what, do you have a certain burger protocol?

• 1:38:13Jocko Willink?

  No. My wife makes me burger. Ketchup, mayonnaise, what? Grilled onions if possible.

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  I think my burger protocol is pretty solid. And there's many. Do you make sliders? You ever do sliders?

• 1:38:24Jocko Willink?

  Not really.

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  Freaking eat like five.

• 1:38:26Jocko Willink?

  You probably put on those little Hawaiian sweet rolls. Yeah. I can see where that's at. I've had it in a restaurant where they do that. But we don't have Hawaiian street rolls in my house. That's what they're called, right? Hawaiian sweet rolls?

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  Sweet rolls, yeah, yeah. Yeah, King's Hawaiian, all good.

• 1:38:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  But there's a seasoning that I use, a new one by the way, but I use that for the burgers. You put a little bit of like light mayo. You heat up the buns a little bit. Um, ketchup and a honey mustard. Oh, and cheese, of course. Try that. Try that. Report back.

• 1:38:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, if you need that beef to make that with, go to ColoradoCraftBeef.com or go to PrimalBeef.com. Get the quality stuff. It makes a big difference, too. It makes a big difference if you get the quality, quality meat. Uh, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to Jocko Underground, subscribe to the YouTube channels. We got a bunch of them. Jocko Podcast. Jocko Fuel.

• 1:39:18Jocko Willink?

  Echelon Front, Origin USA. Check out all those YouTube channels. Psychological Warfare, flipsidecanvas.com. Dakota Meyer, making cool stuff to hang on your wall. Also, we've got books. I've written a bunch of books, mostly about leadership. I've also written a bunch of kids' books, so check those out. Echelon Front Leadership Consultancy, echelonfront.com. If you need help inside your organization, so you can develop relationships up and down across the chain of command and have a better running team, go to echelonfront.com. And if you want to get trained in this stuff, in these skills for leadership in life, go to extremeownership.com and take some of our online classes. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families,

• 1:40:01Jocko Willink?

  you want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to americasmightywarriors.org. Also, we've got heroesandhorses.org, and we've got beyondthebrotherhood.org. Check those out. If you want to connect with us, we're on the interwebs. We're on social media, for lack of a better word.

• 1:40:25Jocko Willink?

  Echo is at Echo Charles. I'm at Jocko Wong. Just be careful, because there's an algorithm that's going to try and steal your life away from you. So don't let that happen. Thanks, everyone out there in uniform, the cloth of the nation. Thank you for holding the line and keeping freedom and democracy safe in the world. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other force responders. Thanks for keeping us safe here at home. And everyone else out there, listen, you aren't an interrogator. That's not why we did this today. I don't want you to try and be an interrogator. I want you to remember that adverse relationships almost never help, and that hostilities with other people makes things harder in your life.

• 1:41:10Jocko Willink?

  Treat people nicely.

• 1:41:13Jocko Willink?

  Treat people good. Give them trust. Listen to them. Treat them with respect. Allow yourself to be influenced by them. Care about them as people.

• 1:41:22Jocko Willink?

  That's how you build relationships. And good relationships with people in your world will make your world and the world a better place. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko, out.