Me, But Better: Olga Khazan On The Science of Personality Change, Challenging Fixed Mindsets, & The Big Five Traits That Shape Your Life

Olga Khazan is a staff writer for The Atlantic and author of "Me, But Better." This conversation explores personality mutability and Olga's experiment to transform from anxious introvert to someone freed from her own patterns. We discuss the Big Five traits, her Miami breakdown that sparked everything, and why anxiety isn't actually your superpower. Along the way, we examine the paradox of self-acceptance. This exchange is about agency, transformation, and why we amplify our suffering. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Lincoln Financial: Check out the NEW 4-part series "The Action Plan"👉https://www.lincolnfinancial.com/richroll On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉https://www.on.com/richroll AG1: Get a FREE bottle of D3K2, Welcome Kit, and 5 travel packs with your first order 👉https://www.drinkAG1.com/richroll Birch Living: Sustainable mattresses with a 100-night risk-free trial. For 20% off site-wide visit BirchLiving.com/richroll. BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month 👉 https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll WHOOP: The all-new WHOOP 5.0 is here! Get your first month FREE👉https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us@voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  If there's some challenge in your life, or something that you're facing, or something unfamiliar, that you have it in you to face that challenge. Like, you probably have the skills and the traits that are necessary to do that, and you just need to nurture them. You need to go out and act as if, fake it till you make it, and rise to the occasion. And you can. Don't let your personality determine the things that you do in life.

• 0:37Rich Roll?

  Hey, people. Today, we are going to pontificate on personality. What it is, what's fixed about it, and what's not, and what we can plausibly do when we decide we're done with some part of ours and desire to do something about it. So, insofar as this is a show about change, today's question to ask and answer is, is it possible to actually change your personality? And if so, how? And to what extent? Before we do that, I would like to take a moment of gratitude to thank everyone for their enthusiasm for last week's episode with James Fry. I loved it.

• 1:22Rich Roll?

  I think it will stand the test of time as one of my all-time faves. But, you know, James is a lot, and for many, an acquired taste, I imagine. So, I can't say I was all that sure how all of you would receive it. So, it's been really great to get so much positive feedback, and really heartwarming to hear from so many of you how it recalled the kind of conversation that hearkens back to the early days of the show, the audio-only days, when I was like this traveling salesman, peddling my podcast wares and knocking on doors to greet my guests with a suitcase full of gear that I would set up on their kitchen table or in a hotel room

• 2:05Rich Roll?

  or some random conference room by the airport. And I've got... A lot of love and a lot of nostalgia for that time. There was a romance to it, a purity. And it was exciting because it was new. And unlike now, not that many people were doing it. So if I was lucky enough to catch lightning with a guest like James Frye, like I did with some of my early episodes with people like John McAvoy and David Goggins, it would be like this event. But things have changed a lot. And as I discussed in my most recent roll-on, most of those changes have been amazing. But some of the best aspects of this media format seem to have been slightly eroded in the midst of this growth spurt.

• 2:50Rich Roll?

  And some of those things are the very things that got me interested in it in the first place. And what I still love about it the most, which is the unvarnished and vulnerable version of people sharing openly their very human stories gleaned from personal experience. And all of this I bring up to say that I found the response to the James Frye episode, as well as the Craig Mott episode, I should add, and a couple others in there, as really heartwarming and affirming, because it means that, you know, I'm not alone. And so you guys have inspired me to be more proactive and more committed to getting back to the

• 3:29Rich Roll?

  real heartbeat of all of this, prioritizing this kind of experience for you, and pursuing it more intentionally and rigorously, kind of like an artist would their art. And so I guess I'm making a bit of a public announcement to you and to that. So thanks for the nudge. Stay tuned, because you know, it's going to take a minute, because you know, we batch a lot of stuff in advance. And the second thing, real quick, is that I'm in the early stages of doing more stuff on Substack these days. We've got plans to do much more there in the near future. So this is, you know, early, early days. But I have started publishing some essays there about once a week, including one reflecting on the James Frye experience that I'm pretty proud of. So if you're not on my Substack, if you have never been on

• 4:14Rich Roll?

  Substack, check it out. I'm at Rich Roll there, just like I am on all the social media platforms. Or you can find a link in the show notes on the episode page on my website, richroll.com. All right, let's take a quick break, and we'll be back with more.

• 4:33Rich Roll?

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• 5:17Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout. So, a couple of years ago, I came across this article in The Atlantic titled "I Gave Myself Three Months to Change My Personality," where this journalist decided that she was kind of fed up with certain aspects of herself, and she decided to set about changing them. And it was this really great article. It was cheeky, it was provocative, really informative as well.

• 6:01Rich Roll?

  And so, when I found out that she ended up extending her experiment for an entire year, and then turning that into a book, which is called "Me But Better," I decided I best book her for the show, because I find all of this fascinating, and because I think it really captures the theme of this podcast, which is, if it's anything, what do we need to know and do to change for the better? And after all that, I think I'd better just get into it. So, have at it with me and Olga Hazan.

• 6:35Rich Roll?

  Olga, thank you for coming.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you.

• 6:38Rich Roll?

  Excited to talk to you. In thinking about your latest book and your work kind of more broadly, essentially, you're somebody who's challenged by and confused by a certain degree of anxiety and eroticism that you're experiencing, or you're having these challenging emotions. You're trying to sort them out and figure out if there might be a better way to live. And maybe you can speak a little bit about the specifics of that. But you make this decision that you're going to go on this journey to address that, and you're going to do it through the lens of personality change. So I have questions about that choice,

• 7:20Rich Roll?

  but maybe just paint the picture of who you were at the beginning of the journey we're going to talk about.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  So the book starts out with kind of a good encapsulation of this issue, which is I had this day in Miami. I was like on, my partner and I had been going down to Florida in the wintertime because I have seasonal affective disorder, which is also addressed in the book. So we're in Miami, there's really unimpeachable weather, like beautiful. We're like overlooking the ocean, you know. And I have this day where I have to do a bunch of stuff that is like slightly annoying or just like slightly challenging. And I just, it breaks me. Like I have to go get a haircut, and the haircut is bad. It's not a good haircut. It doesn't look good on me.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  She didn't listen to what I said, or I didn't communicate properly. And I just, I immediately chug a beer in order to try to like emotionally deal with this bad haircut, and which is how I dealt with my problems at the time. And I... Well, I kind of lost my car in this parking garage, but then I like fight through traffic and I get to this photo shoot, which is the next thing I have to do. And he like, I get there and he's like, do you want to fix your hair? I was like, this is

• 8:43Rich Roll?

  Trying to be helpful, but like not understanding.

• 8:45Speaker 00

  This is the result of me spending money on my hair. And he takes a bunch of photos of me and they're like, they're not good. I don't like the photos. I think they look bad. And but I'm not allowed to say this because they're for work.

• 8:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this is, this is, this is because they're going to go, you know, on the Atlantic. They're going to be in the Atlantic.

• 9:05Speaker 00

  They're going to be a giant, this blown up like magazine size in the print Atlantic magazine that goes out to millions of people. And I'm like, looking at this and I'm like, this is like the worst photo I've ever taken. So I'm like, okay, okay, yeah, okay. So I'm, you know, back in traffic. I'm not a very good driver. I'm like driving, I'm already like sweating this photo. I end up taking a bunch of wrong turns and I like my like path home gets like longer and longer. My boss is like slacking me about something at the same time as I'm driving and he's like, this story needs work. And like, can you make these edits? And I'm like, trying to respond to him, but also driving.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  I have to go to the grocery store because my mom needs these like special foods for her like diet and like, I'm at the grocery store and my cart locks like right outside the store. And so I have to like carry all my grocery or no, I end up dragging my, my cart through this hot parking lot to my car. I drive my car to the Airbnb. It's just like a, like a day of like minor stressors that eat away at me. I basically get up to the Airbnb and I kind of just break down. I just have like, when people say a nervous breakdown, I think that's just what I had. I start just crying and kind of just, I think I said, I hate everyone and everything.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  I'm like chugging wine and you know, even now, like telling this story, I'm like, that kind of is fine. I mean, that's like an annoying day, but it's not, you know, hair grows back and like, I didn't get in a car accident or anything.

• 10:50Rich Roll?

  I mean, setting aside the fact that you write for The Atlantic and you're having your photograph taken for like this magazine, it's a very human story and extremely relatable, you know, and it's, it's a story like many of the other stories in the book, you tell with a certain level of self-deprecation. Like, it's death by a thousand cuts. It's not any one thing, but it's the accumulation of these, you know, inconveniences and this worldview that like, the world isn't, you know, kind of adhering to like, my plan.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:20Rich Roll?

  That, that, you know, eventually boil over into, again, like a very human moment. Like you, you were overwhelmed and, you know, your anxiety burst through. But, you know, as somebody who is in recovery and like, I'm like an AA person, like this is like your come to Jesus moment. Like you're having your awakening, you know, it's like, you're hitting bottom and, and, and you suddenly are blessed with the willingness to actually, you know, look at yourself and do something about it.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I would say so. And like, I, I kind of was just like, you know, there are so many people who would have looked at that day and said, hey, I'm getting my photo taken for The Atlantic. Like, how cool. Like even-

• 11:59Rich Roll?

  It's all perspective.

• 12:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, like that's, who cares what the photo looks like, you know?

• 12:04Rich Roll?

  Like any rational person would look at it that way.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Like, I, I just couldn't see the positive side of things or the way that things are not all that bad, or the way that I hadn't like, somehow darkly like, you know, picked the wrong hairdresser or, you know, done something terrible to like, make this all happen.

• 12:23Rich Roll?

  So with this, you know, kind of moment that you experience and this recognition that like, maybe you should like, get into action on this. Like, you make this decision to, you know, explore yourself through the lens of personality and personality change, which is a very interesting and different choice. Like, there's so many, there's- You know, thousands of books you could have picked up. You could have called your colleague, Arthur Brooks. Like, there's a lot of resources at your disposal and threads that you could have pulled. And, and so I'm curious around like, how did you land on this idea of personality change in the first place as being the kind of modality that you were going to approach this problem?

• 13:06Speaker 00

  So I had already done some research showing that personality traits have a pretty big influence on our lives. So some of the traits like conscientiousness, they matter more than like IQ or socioeconomic status on, on some outcomes like mortality and job performance. So I kind of knew that this was all kind of connected to personality. Like, it wasn't just this random, like, I need to figure out how to stop having nervous breakdowns. I knew that that was connected to the, the trait of neuroticism. And kind of more importantly, it wasn't just my neuroticism that was going wrong at the time. This was kind of as the pandemic was letting up.

• 13:48Speaker 00

  It was like 2021 or early 22. And I just kind of wasn't getting back out there. Like, I never had a pandemic bubble, so I kind of just didn't see anyone for a year. And I just, even when it was like safe to gather, I, I wasn't, I was kind of just like retreating into myself. And, you know, if I had a busy work week, I was like, well, I, I deserve, you know, to sit on the couch and drink wine and not talk to anyone. And that will be more restorative than connecting with other people. And I, I kind of realized that, I mean, I had friends technically, like, you know, people from high school, people from college, but I just didn't interact with anyone most weeks.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  And I was like, that's, that's not healthy. And also, my, so there's a trait called agreeableness, which has a lot to do with like warmth and empathy. And for me, a part of it was anger and that I, I would get really angry, both at myself and at other people. And so I kind of wanted to tackle. Everything at once, like I wanted to revamp multiple sides of myself as opposed to just meditating a lot.

• 15:02Rich Roll?

  But the normal response or the typical person would have said, okay, I know I have these things. I have a certain degree of self-awareness about them. Time to go to therapy.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:13Rich Roll?

  Right? Which is a piece here. But is it because you had already, you know, spent so much time talking to all kinds of people, social scientists, and on some level understood the research around mental well-being that made this, you know, kind of a more obvious choice for you?

• 15:31Speaker 00

  Um, I think part of it is just, yes. So some of the research that I had already previously done. But also, I was actually in therapy. And therapy is definitely part of it. And there are studies that show that, you know, going to therapy reduces neuroticism by a significant amount. So I definitely recommend therapy. Same with antidepressants. Like, if that works for people, I definitely recommend them. But part of like this science of personality change is that you actually have to go out and do stuff. Like, just talking about it doesn't really fix the problem. Like, you kind of have to walk the walk. And, you know, my therapist would suggest things to me like, hey, maybe you should get a hobby. And I would kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, sure. I kind of wanted something that

• 16:16Speaker 00

  was like, you know, boot camp or like a plan of some kind that would actually force me to do things. Because that is really the key part of personality change and of ultimately feeling better is getting out of your house and actually doing the activities that are associated with personality change.

• 16:36Rich Roll?

  The premise is that personality is mutable and perhaps more mutable than we're prone to believe. Like, we identify it as this relatively fixed thing. And I'm curious around, you know, myth versus truth when it comes to that. But first, let's just define, like, what is, what is personality?

• 16:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, so most of the scientists that I talk to think of it as the thoughts, feelings and behaviors that come most naturally to you. So if you're in Miami and you're getting your photo taken for The Atlantic Magazine and the photos look bad, are you like, oh, well, at least I'm, you know, getting my photo taken for The Atlantic, like, I'm so blessed. Thank you, Jesus. Like, I'm gonna drive home now. Or do you have a huge meltdown, you know, and fall to pieces? The kind of, the people who study personality change have a twist on that, which is that personality helps us pursue our goals.

• 17:40Speaker 00

  So we kind of are all subtly trying to accomplish various things in our lives all the time. And our personality traits help us accomplish those goals. And sometimes when we find that we're really far from our goals or we're not able to do the things that we set out to do, we end up kind of changing our personalities without totally realizing it. So this is like people who become super conscientious so they can get their dream job or so they can excel at their dream job. We end up kind of molding ourselves a little bit in order to get the things that we want. So that's kind of the extra twist on it that goes beyond just like what you're already like.

• 18:22Rich Roll?

  And how does personality differ from mindset or attitude? Because those things are obviously important in terms of, you know, sort of setting ourselves about achieving goals as well.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, great question. So there's not like a, psychology, obviously, it's a soft science.

• 18:43Rich Roll?

  Like, when these words get around, it's like, yeah, but is mindset, like, what's a subset of what here?

• 18:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, the other one I always get is like, how is it different from habit? So it's kind of like, personality is like all of the above, right?

• 18:54Rich Roll?

  Right, because if who you are is what you do, then isn't habit a fundamental aspect of personality? I don't know, you know, it gets weird.

• 19:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would say that the most common way of like reconciling these that I hear is that habit, mindset, and attitude are all part of personality. But it kind of ultimately becomes, like, they kind of all get braided together and become kind of like your identity, or like who you... Yeah, identify as, you know, people who go for a jog every day, you know, eventually they might start to consider themselves like a runner. And so that would be kind of more like a personality type than, you know, I just happen to exercise whenever I can, you know, remember.

• 19:42Rich Roll?

  So how does science identify personality? Talk a little bit about the big five.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, so the conclusion that psychologists have come to after debating this for decades is that there are five personality traits. You can remember them with the acronym OCEAN. So it's openness to experiences, which is kind of a nebulous trait, but it's sort of like open mindedness, how up you are for new ideas and activities. This is associated with like political liberalism and kind of creativity. C is conscientiousness, which is the go-getters among us. These people get up early, they do go for a morning jog. They love to crush it at work. They know where all their stuff is. They get places on time.

• 20:38Speaker 00

  E for extroversion. Extroversion, the opposite is introversion. It is sort of like that, like I need quiet time to myself to recharge, except that we all need quiet time to ourselves to recharge, not just introverts. Extroverts also, they like being around people and they also just are more active. They just do a lot more activities. They like to get outside the house and be doing things, even if they're not talking while they're doing it. Agreeableness is warmth and empathy toward others. These people have really, they're happier, they're kind of more resilient in the face of adversity and they have really meaningful and deep relationships with other people.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  And then neuroticism is basically depression and anxiety. And the opposite is emotional stability. So it's sort of like bad things happen to you and you kind of just take it in stride.

• 21:33Rich Roll?

  So all of us, to one degree or another, fall somewhere along the spectrum with these five different archetypes, essentially.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 21:42Rich Roll?

  But this was not always the consensus on personality. You know, like, I grew up in a time, it's like, I remember just hearing about the, is it the Myers-Briggs, the Briggs-M Myers test for a very long time. And in the book, you kind of recount the history of science with respect to trying to understand what personality is and isn't.

• 22:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, so there, before we kind of settled on the big five, and again, there are a spectrum, so no one is kind of a pure introvert or extrovert. So all, personality change just means moving along the spectrum of the traits. But before that, there was different categories. I mean, Freud had ideas that we, we have like these subconscious impulses and that kind of dictates what we do. The trait theorists, who are kind of more popular now, think that like, no, like, we're pretty aware of what we want. Like, well, you know, people will kind of describe themselves pretty accurately when you ask them.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  And then the Myers-Briggs was popular for a short time, but that one hasn't kind of lasted in terms of validity, just because it kind of tends to put people in categories. So like, you're an introvert who judges, you know, and none of us are really in a category. Like, we all have, first of all, we all have like little bits of all the different traits inside of us, and we might even use different traits at different times, depending on the situation.

• 23:10Rich Roll?

  We are a multiplicity of personalities. It isn't like a singular thing.

• 23:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, and some people, you know, code switch pretty significantly between, I mean, I do as a parent, you know, I'm, I'm not the same person at work or in a hostile interview that I am with my toddler, you know. So we all call upon different elements of traits in order to get through life.

• 23:37Rich Roll?

  Is the notion around mutability a newer one? Like, when did that start to become something that scientists were taking seriously?

• 23:47Speaker 00

  I would say it is relatively recent. The personality change studies that I write about have only been happening since, like, the past 10 years or so, which is very recent if you think about the fact that the big five were only really codified in like the early 90s, late 80s. So, yeah, it is recent. Nathan Hudson is sort of the big personality change researcher that I profile. But, yeah, and for a long time, there was this thought that people change, you know, a significant amount, or maybe a small amount during childhood and their teen years, but then, once they're 30, it's the personality is set like plaster, to quote William James.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  And so, you know, people thought like, once you're 30, you're set, you're not going to change ever again, your preferences aren't going to change, your life isn't going to change. But kind of more recently, we find that that's not really true. People do change a significant amount.

• 24:47Rich Roll?

  I mean, just reflecting back on my own life, like, when I think of myself at 30 or even like 35 versus now, like, yeah, my personality is completely different and my preferences are different, like, you know, I can't be an outlier in that regard. You know, it seems almost self-evident or obvious that it can't be a fixed thing. And yet, maybe it's the Myers-Briggs thing or whatever, Briggs-Meyers, whatever it is, kind of created this idea that it is a static aspect of who we are, like, you are who you are, and I'm an introvert, and you're an extrovert, and that's just the way that it is.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that the Myers-Briggs did, because it puts people in categories, and so people then have their little four letters or whatever, and they kind of carry it around, and...

• 25:31Rich Roll?

  It becomes self-fulfilling.

• 25:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, and then, I mean, so, first of all, I have no problem, people who identify as an introvert, I think that's totally fine if you want to do that. What I would kind of caution against is like, taking that and like rejecting opportunities that don't fit with your personality as you think of it. So if you're an introvert, so you can never become a manager, because that requires, you know, speaking to people and inspiring people and, you know, going out and meeting clients, I would not try to think of yourself as an introvert for a while and see what happens.

• 26:01Rich Roll?

  Have you had this conversation with Susan Cain?

• 26:04Speaker 00

  I have talked to Susan Cain multiple times. So she's wonderful and she did, she did agree to be interviewed. And I, I really love her book and I agree with her ideas, but she and I see the introversion extroversion thing a little bit differently.

• 26:20Rich Roll?

  She would say, obviously, you know, if you're introverted, you should not only respect yourself for being introverted and perhaps even celebrate it, but with that understanding, you're in a place where you can make better decisions about, you know, career and social situations, et cetera. And I think part of her book and her work is about rejecting this notion or kind of this cultural idea that if you're introverted, you're less than or bad, because it's obviously, it's, you know, extroverts get a lot of attention and we celebrate them and the introverts are, you know, hiding in the corner, feeling bad about themselves. And she's saying, you shouldn't feel bad about yourself. But where

• 27:02Rich Roll?

  I think you guys probably agree is we all need connection and we all need community and, and, and social nourishment. And you're, you're essentially acknowledging the introvert, but saying, you know, you, you have needs just like everyone else. And sometimes you have to, you know, step out of your comfort zone and put yourself in social situations to make sure that those needs are being met while also saying, yeah, I'm an introvert. So I need to do that, you know, more sparingly than an extrovert would.

• 27:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's very well said. And, you know, I, so part of my rationale for trying to become more extroverted is that there's all these studies that extroverts are happier. And so I called Sonia Lubomirsky, who's like this happiness expert, you probably know, she's amazing. And I was like, look, like introverts are gonna yell at me like quietly, you know, once this book comes out.

• 27:57Rich Roll?

  She likes that though. She likes to, she likes to mix it up.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  I was like, look, like, how can extrovert, you know, how can introverts like be happy if they're not extroverted? And, you know, she really recommended like, look, it doesn't mean like you go, that you do have to do improv. Like you can go to a book club and listen more than you talk. And that's, you know, still extroversion, quote unquote. You know, you can go on a hiking trip and hike around and like, you know, take things in and not be chatting the whole time. And that still counts as like being connected with community.

• 28:28Rich Roll?

  So you have this acronym. And we have these big five, you know, traits. But before you can begin to go on this journey, you have to basically, you know, get an assessment. Now, like, where are you on the spectrum on all of this, right? So how did you fare the first time that you you sat down and went through that process?

• 28:53Speaker 00

  So I would say I fared, okay, so I had two things going for me in the spirit of positivity. I was very high on conscientiousness and very high on openness. The things that were not so good, I was a little bit below average on agreeableness. And I was extremely low on extroversion. I was in the 23rd percentile. So I was very introverted, and especially when it came to being, it said friendly or cheerful. So I was not friendly or cheerful.

• 29:26Rich Roll?

  You seem, you seem, well, whatever worked, I don't, I didn't know you before, but you seem perfectly cheerful and friendly right now.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it's, proof is in the pudding now. And then on neuroticism, I scored in the 94th percentile.

• 29:46Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 29:47Speaker 00

  Which, yeah, it's, it was like extremely high was the classification, yeah.

• 29:52Rich Roll?

  So neuroticism is something you're gonna have to focus on. Extroversion a little bit, but it all makes sense. Of course, you're conscientious. Of course, you're gonna be more introverted. You're a writer. And as a journalist, you're not meant to be agreeable. I mean, agreeable enough to convince people that I talk to you, but your job is to, you know, test the outer edges of people's ideas and to not necessarily take people at face value or trust them implicitly.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that's something that I struggled with. In that chapter, and something a lot of people who like, they're like, I kind of want to be more agreeable, but I don't know. People worry about becoming people pleasers and sort of just agreeing with whatever everyone says, or like succumbing to pressure or peer pressure. That's actually like not agreeableness. That's, that's kind of like a different thing. It's like low assertiveness, basically.

• 30:50Rich Roll?

  It's easy to confuse it for that. I did for a long time. Like you, you kind of pride yourself on it. Like, I'm easy to get along with. I'll just say yes, and everybody wants to be around me because you, you're, you're not being authentic, of course, but what you really are saying is I want to belong and I'll do anything to belong because I'm so desperate to feel a part of something. It's a betrayal of yourself. So you're not agreeable to your own being. And on some level, you're not even really agreeing. You're just going along to get along.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And what I had to learn is that there are ways to be agreeable, but still stuck up for yourself. Like, you can have boundaries with people and state the boundaries in a kind way, you know, and, and not just go along to get along, but still, still be liked and possibly even be liked more than you would have been if you had just been saying yes to everything. Because there's going to come a point where you said yes so much that now you have to really throw down the hammer in a not kind way.

• 31:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the explosion.

• 31:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 31:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, what you're saying is agreeableness isn't agreeing with people. It's how you comport yourself in the face of ideas that you don't agree with, or somebody who's being unpleasant, or who is, you know, triggering you or provoking some kind of not great emotion inside of you.

• 32:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I'll give you a really concrete example of something that I did wrong. So I had a friend who... So I don't like texting to catch up with people. Like, I'm fine with texting to like, make plans or like, hey, have you heard of this? Or whatever, like, short little things. But I don't like kind of long texts about what's going on in our lives. I'd prefer a phone call. And so I had a friend who told me that I had to text her to check in with her every week, or else she was gonna stop being friends with me. And of course, I was like, okay, okay, whatever you want. Like, I'll do it, I'll do it, no problem. But of course, I can't remember to text her every week, because texting is not part of my, like, thing that I do, is these text check-ins.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  So I forget, and then she stops being friends with me. So I talked with a, like, a friendship expert, who was like, you could have just said, look, I'm really sorry that I've been making you feel like I'm neglecting you, or that I don't care about you, but texting is just not something that I'm able to do at that frequency, especially in that way. You know, is there another way that I can catch up with you? Zoom call, you know, phone call, something else? I don't know why, but I just, I never thought of that. I just thought you had to say yes to whatever people wanted, or else they wouldn't like you.

• 33:24Rich Roll?

  All right, well, first of all, that is an outrageous request.

• 33:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 33:29Rich Roll?

  On behalf of somebody who claims to be your friend. Like, if you want to be my friend, you have to do homework, and I'm gonna check your homework. Like, that's insane, right? And I would take that response that you just, you know, the response that you feel like you could have or should have given that person a step further to say, you said like, I'm sorry I'm making you feel this way. Like, you're not making her feel, you're not responsible for her emotions, you know?

• 33:58Speaker 00

  Oh, right, right, yeah.

• 33:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like, it's like, the conditions that, you know, she's imposed upon this are pretty onerous. And I would, I would say that somebody who's really a friend, or somebody worthy of being your friend, is not somebody who would behave that way.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, I mean, that was a big part of learning about agreeableness, is like, when do I set a boundary, and when do I kind of just, you know, agree? When do I go along to get along? And it's been handy with parenting, because you have to, you can't just say yes to everything when you're a parent. You have, you have to have boundaries.

• 34:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah. My wife's so good at this. Like, somebody recently...

• 34:41Rich Roll?

  You know, kind of was trying to tempt her into attending something she didn't want to attend or something. The circumstances are irrelevant, but, but it was sort of a similar situation of trying to draw her into a web, you know, that she didn't want to be a part of. And she was just like, yeah, oh, no, yeah, I'm not going to do that. Like, but like, was so nonplussed by the whole thing that it was like, oh, okay. Like, it just passed, right? So, setting a boundary without the emotional charge around it.

• 35:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:12Rich Roll?

  Would be agreeableness, yeah?

• 35:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then not worrying, you know, are they mad at me? Are they mad at me? You know, because as long as you, you didn't yell, you know, you communicated kindly. Because when, when you really will like ruffle feathers and make people upset is if you say yes so much, find yourself in a situation you don't want to be in, and then at the last minutes, say no, or like, you know, yell at them for always asking you for things.

• 35:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah. This is the plight of the chronic people pleaser. Like, I've, I've been in that situation like too many times. And then you resent yourself, and then you're mad at that person for no reason. Like, it's, and you think like, by putting it off, or, or if it's way down the line on the calendar, like, that, you know, you'll change your mind and want to go, and that day, it's just, it's a really bad strategy for, for life. But the fear behind it is, you're going to get exiled from the group, or whatever. You're going to end a friendship. And, and, and that's, that's the one thing you're trying to avoid. And every, but everything you're doing is leading you towards that all along.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. I, another thing I did for that chapter was volunteer in a homeless shelter. And I, I was like, oh, these people are like, must be just complete, or, sorry, it wasn't a homeless shelter, it was like a, like a day center for the homeless, and they served, served food, served lunch. That was like the main thing happening. And I thought they, they would be like these saintly people who just, you know, yes, whatever you'd like, you know. But they were like, kind of tough, because they had to be, because they're like, trying to, you know, feed hundreds of people, some of whom were in active psychosis, in the middle of a pandemic, in a, you know, A clean and hygienic and like quick way.

• 36:55Speaker 00

  And so it was like, yeah, no, you can't have seconds yet, you know, put up, pull up your mask. Like they were, they were kind of tough with their clients. But I kind of realized that they had to be because they, so that they could do this broader project of agreeableness of like getting everyone fed, they had to be kind of strict, you know, individually.

• 37:14Rich Roll?

  Like disagreeable on small things in order to meet the agreeableness of the big thing.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 37:27Rich Roll?

  The thing that kind of sticks out to me that I'm curious about is just this curiosity I have about your curiosity. Because I feel like you are this journalist and you interview all of these amazing minds and you go deep into the social science and research, et cetera. But you're the subject, like, you know, like everything that you write about and, you know, both of your books are like self inquiry, like there's something about you that you're trying to resolve within yourself and then you go on this journey, you know, to try to learn about it. But as a journalist, like you're the subject.

• 38:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's a lot of psychologists that I talk to have this concept called me search, which is the thing they end up like dedicating their lives to and publishing all these studies on is basically something that's like kind of always been wrong with them or like something that they're trying to figure out about themselves. And I feel like a lot of journalists have that too. Like it might not be as explicit as mine where they're literally like, you know, changing their personality or going on some sort of journey themselves. But I think a lot of journalists have, they're drawn to a beat that kind of speaks to something within themselves or like they're trying to figure something out or like, I don't know, they had kids and then they, you know,

• 38:47Speaker 00

  became a parenting reporter because they, you know, couldn't figure out some element of parenthood or something. So yeah, I'm, I'm sort of like that in that I, I've just always, probably because I spent a lot of time by myself as a kid, I have always kind of wondered like why people think, think the things they do and behave the way they do. And

• 39:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I have just always been drawn to those like big, deep questions. So yeah, I'm fortunate that I get to do that for my job.

• 39:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, writing is about answering questions, but when the question has to do with something you're trying to figure out about yourself, you know, you're going to go on this outward journey to answer it, but it's also you have to apply those answers inward.

• 39:33Speaker 00

  So I always thought that like my unhappiness, like my tendency toward anxiety and unhappiness and sort of, you know, I call it introversion in the book, but it was really just like a lack of of social interaction. I always thought that it was, well, the world is just structured in a way that's making me unhappy and is making me anxious or it's, you know, it's hard for me to make friends because like everyone is bad. And I think once I started learning a little bit more about the personality science, I was sort of like, no, I like approach things in a way that's counterproductive a lot of the time because

• 40:12Speaker 00

  I have high levels of neuroticism and or I don't know how to kind of manage these these feelings of neuroticism when they come up. So I think it went from like kind of thinking that like, oh, man, my life is so stressful. My job is so stressful. Everything is so stressful and that's why I'm anxious all the time to like, I think there's something inside me that is making me more prone to stress or making me interpret things that are kind of neutral as more stressful than they need to be.

• 40:40Rich Roll?

  Well, first of all, those things are also doing something for you. You know, like you address this in the book, like we behave in these errant ways because on some level they're they are serving us or at one point in time they did serve us. And so we're reluctant to let go of them and and perhaps even more reluctant to see the ways in which they're leading us astray, right? Like when they go haywire, like our strengths become our weaknesses.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And that was the biggest struggle with letting go of some of my anxiety is that I always thought that anxiety is how I get things done. Like, that's how I get through life. That's how I meet deadlines and that's how I perform. And if I didn't have my anxiety, I wouldn't have anything, you know, I would just like

• 41:29Rich Roll?

  It's your superpower.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I would, I would

• 41:31Rich Roll?

  If you didn't have that, like, yeah, you wouldn't, you wouldn't have got, you wouldn't be writing for The Atlantic. Like, none of these things would have happened. Like, you know, the the prospect of like, Not having that would would be like taking the engine out of the car.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And it can really like interfere with your ability to have self compassion. Because you start to think that like, well, if I'm compassionate to myself, I'm gonna be soft. And I'm not gonna try as hard because I'm not gonna, you know, be like driving myself to achieve. And I think in some ways like that's evolutionarily adaptive, right? Like, like people who are here today, who are kind of anxious high achievers. You know, they're like ancestors, you know, generations and generations back. Like, they were the ones who like spotted the saber tooth tiger or whatever, you know. They, we, we come from a long line of of people who were anxious and it did something for us. And it's, it's really hard to let go of that.

• 42:24Rich Roll?

  Or you're the exception to the rule and you have built this life. And you reflect back on it and see all the people that didn't have this thing that you have. And it's easy to then come to the conclusion that it was because of that. And perhaps solely because of that, that you were able to do these amazing things.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, like when I look at people, you know, they got laid off. Was it because they weren't anxious enough about, you know, their performance or something like that? Yeah, it's easy to tell yourself that story.

• 42:55Rich Roll?

  If you had panic attacks like I did, this would not happen.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  Exactly. There's your problem.

• 42:59Rich Roll?

  The other part, the other kind of ripple or piece to that is like the urge to control, right? If the world out there would just, you know, adhere to like my way of doing things. Like, all of this would go away and the frustration that, you know, people don't behave in the way that you want them to. That amps up the anxiety, but is really fundamentally at its root. Like a, an issue around control or a fear of like letting go or not being in charge.

• 43:28Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Yeah. So that was a big element for me. And it was, so stay with me, but this is like specifically what was wrong with me was that I.

• 43:39Speaker 00

  I had this urge to control and when I couldn't control the outcomes, when things didn't go according to plan, I would have a lot of self-blame. Like, it was, you know, if I had planned to go to a certain beach on a certain day and I couldn't find parking, that kind of thing would like completely destroy me. I would, it would completely ruin not just that day, but that week. It would, I would tell the story in my head of, "I'm a terrible driver, parking searcher, you know, nothing I do ever goes according to plan." Like, and that, so that element for me was like, I mean, in Buddhism, they call it the double arrow, where bad things would happen and then I would just hit myself with that second arrow of self-blame. And that was a big part of it for me.

• 44:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, making the second mistake. You know, it's bad enough that it didn't go well, and now I'm gonna beat myself up for it. But within that, there's a narcissism, like this sense that you're all-powerful, like, you know, like, "I just didn't try hard enough." You know, "If I had, then that parking spot would have manifested itself," or whatever. It's like, it's a complete delusion. And even if your life is terrible and you're, you know, and you're just walking around with this victim mentality, like, that is a form of narcissism.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. A big thing, so, part of what I did, spoiler, is improv to kind of get over some of these things. And a big part of that, which is, that makes it so uncomfortable, but also that makes it so helpful, is that you can't control anything. Like, you, you can't control what anyone says. You, you might have the best idea for a, you know, a sketch and like, go in there and want to do a certain thing, but your kind of co-castmates are gonna have different ideas and you have to find a way to make your idea work with theirs. And that kind of feeling of like, "It's not up to me how this goes," was like, very new to me.

• 45:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was exercise in surrender. And, you know, a really courageous one at that. I mean, like, improv for anybody, you know, let alone somebody who is, is kind of like, at their core, introverted and... And has some neuroticism like it's that's a that's really scary like that was a I mean in terms of like now we're getting way ahead of ourselves but like just to finish the thought

• 46:02Rich Roll?

  as a as a as an exercise like I would have thought like well try something a little bit you know less challenging first you know that's like deep that's like jumping into the deep end of the pool

• 46:12Speaker 00

  Yeah although it's funny like in DC everyone's like oh my God you did improv that's so scary and I can't believe you did that but out here everyone's doing improv

• 46:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah

• 46:22Speaker 00

  Doing these like LA podcasts like so

• 46:26Rich Roll?

  Right right yeah everyone is everyone in this city is like done an improv class I know I know well it's a self-selecting audience yeah but let's back up a little bit and create a little context here so essentially what's happening here is you're like okay you're leveraging your strength which is your conscientiousness and you're applying it to this project right you're taking and maybe even with a degree of neurosis right like I am going to change my personality and I'm going to like talk to everyone and this is I'm committing to do it and I'm gonna like write this article about it for the Atlantic like now I'm on the hook like you created

• 47:03Rich Roll?

  accountability around it and you go deep in and and you like your game like you're trying all these things like trying to understand if these things in a practical real life context are going to move the needle for you

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Yes my only caveat to that is that I was not like this brave intrepid person who was like yay to all these activities like probably my first 10 times in improv I was like get me out of here is this really necessary maybe I could just be an extrovert without doing this you know should I call my editor right now

• 47:43Rich Roll?

  At what point did the article part of it come in was that at the beginning were you like okay if I'm gonna do this like I'm gonna write about it like I'm interested in the relationship between the the writing aspect of it and just the the personal journey outside of like

• 48:02Rich Roll?

  Doing it because it's going to end up on the page.

• 48:06Speaker 00

  So I always had the assignment, like the whole time I was, I was doing this. So I, I, I can't claim.

• 48:12Rich Roll?

  So the idea, like you pitched the idea?

• 48:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, essentially. Like it was, it was already like, like Olga's gonna change or try to. So I always, always had the assignment. So I can't pretend that I, you know, it just worked out miraculously that they were into this. But I will say that I've continued, like the book is out, it's done. I don't have to do anything with it anymore. But I will say I've continued a lot of this stuff since the book has come out and since I was done with the book.

• 48:44Rich Roll?

  That's good to hear because, because in the book, basically you write this article, 2022, did that come out? The article in the Atlantic?

• 48:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 48:53Rich Roll?

  I think so. But then after you, after that came out, then you kind of like relaxed for a while. Enough of that.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. I can quit.

• 49:02Rich Roll?

  You relapsed a little bit?

• 49:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:05Rich Roll?

  And, and you know, then obviously the book, you know, got you, you know, re-energized around it. But now in the aftermath of a book, there's a, there's a longer tail, like you're, you're in.

• 49:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I realized that I was never really as introverted as I was like telling myself that I was. Like, I think I had this story about myself that I just don't need any social interaction. And I think I kind of actually need quite a lot. Like, I think I, that's like part of what keeps me going. And so like whenever I, you know, I, I joined like mom's groups and like I, I did Bumble BFF like long after I needed to. And like, you know, I kind of am more of a approach person now than a retreat person.

• 49:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it took the pandemic for me to recognize that within myself. Like when it started, I mean, I live kind of out in the middle, out in the middle of nowhere. I like my solitude. I'm happiest when I'm just working on my little projects by myself in a, in a room with the door shut, you know? And so when the pandemic hit, I thought, well, like I'm, I'm built for this. Like this will be fine.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:16Rich Roll?

  And it took quite a long time to realize, you know, to kind of succumb to the languishing of it all and realize like, you know, how much I that I needed social connection in a way that maybe I had never really reckoned with.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, yeah, a lot of writers were like, oh, there's a pandemic like, you know, like, because it's your day to day life is very insular, you know, you, you know, and I was the same. I would do my interviews and then I would write. And if anyone talked to me while I was writing, I would yell at them. And like, I think it, I kind of realized that I was start, I kind of need other people in order to feel like a person like I, and one of the experts that I talked to, Gillian Sandstrom, she lives in the UK or moved to the UK as an American and, you know, to teach. And she kind of realized that, like, she didn't feel part of the social fabric because she didn't have any friends and didn't like

• 51:13Speaker 00

  talk to anyone most of the time. And so she would just start kind of talking to people on public transportation mostly, or like, just when she was out and about and starting conversations with people. Honestly, just because like, after a while, you start to feel like, am I in a video game? Like, you know, it can feel very isolating. And so sometimes she just has these like little short conversations with people just to, I don't know, feel alive.

• 51:37Rich Roll?

  What does the science say about when it comes to mutability of personality in terms of like, what is locked in and genetic and sort of predestined versus aspects of it that truly are variable, depending upon like, how you engage with them?

• 51:57Speaker 00

  Great question. So basically, nothing is predestined. So I will say that, so 40 to 60%, let's call it half, of your personality is inherited or like, or genetic, right? It's influenced by your genes. However, like, no one is exactly like their parents, right? Because you

• 52:20Speaker 00

  Get those genes and then they combine in unpredictable ways. Like you can't always, you know, no kid looks exactly like their parents or acts exactly like their parents. You can't always place like, oh, this is from mom and this is from dad. Our genes kind of combine in unpredictable ways. And then they kind of interact in unpredictable ways with the environment. And the environment is really what exerts a powerful influence on your personality. So if you're, you know, a kid who is a little bit introverted and you spend a ton of time reading and then you, you know, become this like professor and you end up giving a lot of talks and like, you know, these are all, these things are all going to influence your personality kind of as you go along in life.

• 53:02Speaker 00

  If you happen to smile a lot and you attract a lot of people to you and you make a lot of friends, you know, those friends will kind of influence your personality as well. So I wouldn't say that anything is like, oh, my dad had depression, so I'm going to have depression and there's literally nothing I can do. It's more like, okay, you might have a, you know, proclivity toward that or you might have a, be kind of drawn toward that to some extent. But you still have a fair amount of wiggle room depending on choices that are made for you by your parents in childhood and then choices that you make yourself, you know, in your early adulthood and throughout adulthood.

• 53:37Rich Roll?

  I mean, that alone is so empowering to know. Like it's a, it's a very hopeful message, you know, in which we have quite a bit more agency than, than perhaps we, we really understand.

• 53:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I mean, you see this with anyone who's ever, you know, quit drinking or, or completely changed their friend group or changed their job or gone back to school. You know, sometimes people just have these like bursts where they're like, I'm going to do something completely different. And then that, or, or, you know, either their personality changes and it leads them into a new situation or they're placed in a new situation and it then changes their personality.

• 54:15Rich Roll?

  I often think though, in those contexts, I wonder, is it? Is it a desire to change your

• 54:25Rich Roll?

  personality that motivates like a major life change, like a career change or something like that? Or is it a betrayal of your personality? Like you're walking around like acting in a certain way, but you're like, I'm not happy. I feel like I'm living someone else's life, or this is not for me. I can feel it. To me, it feels like that's almost like a costume that you're wearing. Like you betrayed your personality and your personality is like you're like, the authentic version of you is has been muted and repressed and is has had enough, right? And is like, come on, like, we need to like, go over here.

• 55:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. So my therapist, one of the things she would always tell me is like that I have a like a true self and an anxious self, and that my anxious self is always like undermining the things that I want. So I do think some people do that, like they end up in a situation that they assumed was right, or that they assumed was what they should be doing. And then, you know, sometimes it's because we don't believe that we can change, that we continue doing things that are counterproductive, or just not a good fit for us, or not a good fit anymore. Like, you also change over time. And what was fun when you were 22 is not maybe fun when you're 42.

• 55:42Rich Roll?

  Have you, are you familiar with internal family systems like IFS?

• 55:47Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:47Rich Roll?

  Guy Richard Schwartz? Yeah, I had him in here. Like, from his perspective, like, there's, you have all of these person, like, voices and personalities, and all of them are trying to, you know, perform on your behalf in all these various ways. And they're competing, you know, but, but recognizing them and honoring them, like, oh, like, hey, you know, my neurotic five-year-old self, like, I know that you're doing that because you feel like you need to to protect me. And I'm so thankful for that. But like, it's cool. Like, we're good. Like, you can, you can like chill out, you know?

• 56:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, yeah. And there is like, Yeah, there's an element of personality change to that is like, is like, which side of yourself do you want to present in a certain situation? I talked to one, another podcaster who has this like alter ego that she kind of like puts on when she has to do some like business transaction, like when she has to talk to her agent or something. She's like, and now I'm a like successful businesswoman. And she kind of trots out that side of herself, which is, you know, not who she is day to day.

• 56:56Rich Roll?

  Everything that you talk about in the book and you go through is, is very action based. You know, it's, you have to do things, you have to get out of your comfort zone. And it reminds me of, of what Susan David, you know, Susan David, like this, she's this amazing professor of psychology. And her whole thing is like discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. And, and I think, who was it who said in your book, uh, something around confusing,

• 57:26Rich Roll?

  for being like a, a, basically like, I can't remember exactly what it was, but basically like being a betrayal of your personality. Like if it feels uncomfortable, like you shouldn't, you shouldn't do it because I'm not, you know, I'm not the kind of person that does that kind of thing. And disabusing people of that, like if you want to grow, change, evolve and engender your life with like more fulfillment and meaning, like it demands that you get out of your comfort zone. So don't confuse that with something else.

• 57:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, look, everything that you do that's new is going to feel uncomfortable the first time you do it. I mean, nobody, you know, who, uh, has a baby, like goes home from the hospital that first day and is like, I feel totally at ease with this. I feel confident. I know exactly what to do with this baby. I feel like a natural born parent. Like everyone is like a total nervous wreck, can't believe like they were allowed to leave the hospital with a baby. You know, is like Googling how many ounces at what time, you know? It's anything you do initially is going to feel very, very uncomfortable. You know, the first, like I said, 10, 15 times I did improv, it was extreme. Uncomfortable. And I think part of it is just like if you have a value or a goal that's on

• 58:41Speaker 00

  the other side of that discomfort, you can't let the discomfort stop you. You have to just kind of persevere a little bit until it becomes more comfortable. You know, we see this like most explicitly and literally with exercise where like the first time you run, it's like super uncomfortable and you're like, why do people do this? And then you get good at running and suddenly it's like glorious and euphoric. That happens with, you know, mental things, attitudinal things, too.

• 59:08Rich Roll?

  I found it in my notes. It was, it was Sonia. She said, just because it doesn't feel natural or comfortable, doesn't mean it's not authentic.

• 59:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And authenticity, like the way we think, like, people think of authenticity is just what feels good to me. Right? And so I would caution against letting that be your guide to everything you do, because not everything that feels good to you is the best thing to be doing at the time. And not everything that's, you know, healthy or interesting or that's going to help you grow is going to feel good at first.

• 59:42Rich Roll?

  In terms of extroversion versus introversion, if you're introverted and you're perfectly happy and your life is wonderful and fulfilled, like fantastic, keep doing what you're doing, right? But if you are feeling lonely or disconnected and yearning for a little bit

• 1:00:00Rich Roll?

  more connection with other people, here's the discomfort that you're going to have to weather. It's pretty obvious, like you're going to have to put yourself in social situations that maybe you rather wouldn't, that are going to be uncomfortable. And you kind of walk through that. You go all that we mentioned improv earlier, like that was a huge, to me, that's like a huge leap for somebody who's prone to introversion. But it feels like that map, like is pretty self evident. But when it comes to neuroticism, like, okay, how do I, what are the, what are the contrary actions that I need to take here?

• 1:00:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. So what anxious people do that is their reflexive action is to worry. So it's, it's their behavior that they use to cope with the anxiety. If I worry enough, it won't happen. So kind of what the, what the research kind of says that you, you should do if you have this tendency toward worry is

• 1:01:01Speaker 00

  Either to limit the worrying to like a worry period. So set aside, you know, five minutes and write down everything you're worried about. And then just try to stop. Of course, like anxious people aren't good at stopping thinking. So what I kind of like that I got from Tracy Dennis Tawari, which is a strategy that has worked for me a little bit is, okay, write down all your worries, write down everything bad that could happen, but also write down everything good that could happen. Because in reality, like most things in life have positive and negative elements. You know, they, something really frightening or terrible will occur, but then, you know, you'll either find a way out of it, or you will gain something from it, or maybe it just won't be that bad.

• 1:01:43Speaker 00

  You know, maybe you'll buy a new house and it won't have like the XYZ that you were looking for, but it ended up having a lot more space, or it was in a cool neighborhood. Or, you know, positive outcomes are also possible. And I think that is something that I and a lot of other neurotic people tend to lose sight of when we're really in a worry spiral. So that's like kind of your opposite action for that coping behavior of worry. The other things I've heard of for people who kind of struggle more with like the panic side of anxiety, so more like panic attacks, is to actually try to lean into the sensations of panic.

• 1:02:23Speaker 00

  So including things like breathing through a straw, you know, getting your heart pumping really fast, and just noticing that like, these sensations are maybe a little unpleasant, but they actually don't hurt you. Like you're not going to die from your heart beating fast, or from hyperventilating. That panic attacks aren't dangerous. A lot of what is painful about neuroticism is that you are kind of afraid of your feelings. You're afraid of your neuroticism. And so part of what the kind of therapy around this involves is like making you less afraid of the anxiety. So even if it comes, you're not, you're not panicking because you're anxious.

• 1:03:06Rich Roll?

  I have people in my life that I'm close with that are prone to this sort of thing. Even to the extent that...

• 1:03:18Rich Roll?

  It's all consuming, you know, and it's being fueled by news and politics and global events and, and just in, just this proclivity for future tripping on, on the disaster that is, you know, obviously just around the bend.

• 1:03:36Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:36Rich Roll?

  And it's almost like a fuel source, you know, that, that makes them feel alive and, and kind of an addiction, right? Like it's energizing, I suppose, on some level. It's destructive, but it's very difficult to, like, I'm powerless. Like, I, I can't, you know, like, I feel like until someone like that has their own kind of reckoning, like, it doesn't matter what you say to them, like, hey, you know, maybe you should breathe out of a straw or do any of these things, like, you know, it's, it's, it's very difficult to get somebody to take that leap and try something different.

• 1:04:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I mean, um, yeah, because those spirals can feel almost like very safe, right? Like, like when I, yeah, when I really get going on a, on a worry spiral, um, it can almost feel like more comfortable than not worrying because you think that by worrying you can prevent things from happening.

• 1:04:34Rich Roll?

  Or maybe you're smarter than everyone else because you can see, you know, what everyone else can't see. If they could see what you see.

• 1:04:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. But, yeah, and I would tell myself, like, well, I, I've always seen everything bad coming or like, but of course I haven't, like, you know, I, I didn't see Trump coming. Like, I, I, there's a ton of stuff that I, that I haven't seen coming in my life. And, um, I, yeah, but I, I definitely sympathize with the, the, I guess, desire to just keep thinking about bad things because you think that that will keep them at bay.

• 1:05:05Rich Roll?

  I take it that you started doing these things.

• 1:05:08Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:05:09Rich Roll?

  What are some of the other things that, that you did and how effective have they been and what has stayed with you or stuck that has led to you being less neurotic?

• 1:05:21Speaker 00

  So the main thing that I did was this class called MBSR, which is a meditation class. It's called mindfulness-based stress reduction. And in studies, it's been proven to work about as well as Lexapro.

• 1:05:35Speaker 00

  And it's kind of simple when you describe it. It's 45 minutes a day of mindful meditation. And then every week, there's a Zoom or in-person gathering where they kind of do a PowerPoint presentation of like Buddhism for dummies, like very, very basic, broken-down concepts from Buddhism that could be applied for stressful situations. The meditation was extremely difficult for me. It's very hard to focus on your breath, focus on anything but worrying for someone like me. So that was, I think, helpful to an extent, but actually, part of it,

• 1:06:17Speaker 00

  the part of it that I think was more helpful for me was the Buddhism for dummies part. Like, I think I just needed someone to come at me with like aphorisms at the right time when I was truly desperate. And there's something about the shared setting and all of us kind of sharing our struggles and the teacher kind of telling you Buddhism's answer to these struggles that, you know, has existed for many centuries. It was kind of like a relief for it was, I don't, I don't believe in God, but I, people who are like, let go and let God. I kind of like let go and let the universe a little bit. I don't know how else to describe it, but it was, it was just like a little bit of a, you don't have to be in charge of everything

• 1:07:02Speaker 00

  working out perfectly, was like the overarching message of that class. And that to me was like, I was like, okay, like, you know what I mean?

• 1:07:10Rich Roll?

  It's not up to you.

• 1:07:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:12Rich Roll?

  Why are you carrying this on your shoulders?

• 1:07:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Rich Roll?

  Why don't you just, you know, drop the rock and surrender a little bit?

• 1:07:24Rich Roll?

  There's so much overlap throughout the entire book with how 12-step works.

• 1:07:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:07:28Rich Roll?

  It's like so much. You know, it's like, and in terms of what you just shared, you know, a lot of people come in to the program with very complicated opinions and emotions and histories with religion, faith, spirituality, et cetera. But fundamentally, it is a spiritual program. But it's so nondenominational that you get to call God whatever you want, or, you know, higher power, the universe, or even just the collective group of people that between and betwixt them, you know, share a wisdom that you don't have. Like, that's a power greater than you.

• 1:08:09Rich Roll?

  And in this Buddhism app community, like, there was a shared wisdom there that you were able to tap into. But fundamentally, it's about like letting go. Like, neuroticism is about this clutch, right? And when you realize, like, I'm not in control here, like, there's more going on that I, like, like humbling yourself, that you're not all-powerful, is this cathartic relief?

• 1:08:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, it really was like that for me. One of the things, one of the little aphorisms that I came across, that I keep coming back to in the course of researching that chapter, was actually from David Axelrod, the democratic strategist. But I'm very DC. And he was kind of describing what it's like to work really hard on a political campaign. And then, you know, you're working like 100 hours a week, you're doing everything you can to get your guy elected. And then, come election day, like, you have no control, you know? And, you know, you could lose in a huge way, and you have no say in the matter. And it's, you know, it is what it is.

• 1:09:17Speaker 00

  And he, the way, what he tells himself is, "All we can do is everything we can do." Essentially just means, like, you can push really, really hard, you can try hard, but then you ultimately have to let go. You cannot control the outcome, and you have to just be okay with that. And that, for me, has been really helpful in a lot of ways. You know, book launch, parenting, just day-to-day life, like, you can set yourself up for success, you can set your kid up for success, and then you just have to take your hands off the wheel because you can't control everything.

• 1:09:51Rich Roll?

  Not only can you not control everything, I mean, Olga, what do you honestly think that you can control?

• 1:09:58Speaker 00

  So I, going into this, I thought, I basically thought that if, if people were smart, they could basically make their lives run flawlessly. And that when I, my life didn't run flawlessly, it was because I wasn't being smart. That was like my theory that I, that I had, which is not correct.

• 1:10:24Rich Roll?

  But I'll still, I'm gonna, I'm gonna press you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep with this. Like, what do you think you have control over?

• 1:10:31Speaker 00

  I mean, oh, God, what do I have control over? Like, the pants that I put on every morning? I don't know, like, I have no...

• 1:10:40Rich Roll?

  I think, I think meditation has been very helpful to me in, in helping me really, really get, like, really understand that truly the only thing I have control over is my behavior, like, how I respond to externalities. And everything is an externality that I can't control. Like, I can, I can't even necessarily control what my mind is doing all the time. Like, it has, it's running its own thing often. And the more I meditate, the more agency I feel I have over that. But it's really just, what is my behavior? Like, how am I showing up in the world right now? You know, I can't even control, you know, what's gonna happen a moment from now.

• 1:11:24Rich Roll?

  Maybe you'll storm out of here, like, you know, who knows? You know what I mean?

• 1:11:27Speaker 00

  How dare you ask me?

• 1:11:28Rich Roll?

  But there's a, there's a piece in that, but also like a focus. Like, okay, well, now that I know that,

• 1:11:35Rich Roll?

  and I know that when I behave in this way, I'm setting myself up for a higher possibility that X, Y, and Z might happen. But if I comport myself in these other ways, that all these smart people who lived before me seem to say, lead you towards a, you know, a better life. Like, and I do that consistently over time. My experience is that my life gets better, but it's better because I'm not attempting to get involved in controlling anything else outside of that.

• 1:12:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, I think that's really smart. Something that it has done for me is to make me more aware of anxious spirals and kind of just wave at them as they go by, if that makes sense. Like, I, like, I can't emphasize enough how much I was-

• 1:12:29Rich Roll?

  Being more neutral about them.

• 1:12:31Speaker 00

  Yes, like, I was, I was hitting myself with not just the double arrow, but the triple arrow and the, the fourth and fifth, like, I was hitting myself with so many arrows because, like, uh, okay, I will give you a very, very recent example. Yesterday, um, we drove down to Laguna Beach to hang out with a friend of mine, um, and we had that situation. The parking was challenging. The beach we initially had in mind, like, the swell was too big and we weren't gonna be able to get in the water, so we had to change locations and it was like, kind of a production. And the whole time, I was like, it kept popping up, like, this little gopher was like, "Your friend is mad at you for not making this unfold perfectly." Like, your friend, she's mad at you, like, "How dare you, like, not control the temperature

• 1:13:14Speaker 00

  of the water, the swells, the parking, like, the Laguna Beach layout." And I, it was very real to me in the moment. I was like, "Oh, my God, she's mad, she's mad. I need to resolve this, like, very quickly, so she won't get mad." And, um, I kind of like, I think it was probably from my Buddhism, kind of, or, I don't know, therapy, some combination of all the stuff I did, uh, I was kind of like, "This is so silly." Like, she's not mad. If she looks grumpy, it's probably just because, like, we're all kind of grumpy because this isn't, like, going super well. Like, you know, or like, and like, as soon as we get in the water, we'll feel fine. Like, uh, you know, it was- But that kind of moment of clarity of like, you're kind of anxiously spiraling,

• 1:13:57Speaker 00

  and that's okay, but like, you don't have to buy into this spiral and try to fix things just because it's there.

• 1:14:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, noticing it as it's happening from a distance, as opposed to indulging it and self identifying with it.

• 1:14:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, and also not beating myself up for the spiral. Like, it's like, okay, you're gonna have a spiral because that's kind of what you do.

• 1:14:19Rich Roll?

  This is where curiosity comes in, which is a big piece here, right? Talk about your relationship with curiosity.

• 1:14:26Speaker 00

  So Judd Brewer is the curiosity guy, and his kind of method for treating neuroticism is to get curious about its effect in your body. And this could not be less relatable to me at the start of my project. I have like, basically no connection to my body, or I started out that way. Like, I would end up with like, in PT with like, all these like, cramps in my shoulders and things, and have like, no idea where they came from after a stressful week. You know, I would, yeah, I also am like, one of those people who bumps into things because I just am not very aware of where I am.

• 1:15:08Rich Roll?

  You're just all up in your head all the time.

• 1:15:11Speaker 00

  So he's like, pay attention to how anxiety feels in your body. And I was like, it's like, that's like saying, like, pay attention to the purple elephant in the room or something. You know, it's like, what are you talking about? There's no such thing.

• 1:15:21Rich Roll?

  But just asking that question illustrates the detachment, that you're detached from your physical being.

• 1:15:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I really found that it was a good way, in particular with panic attacks, which is not my like, main issue, but when I do have them, that, again, just taking a second and thinking like, oh, wow, my heart's beating really fast, like, huh, my like, you know, my breath is like, you know, I'm breathing pretty deeply. To me, that was a good way of breaking out of the panic attack and kind of, once again, just getting a little bit friendlier with it, maybe, or just...

• 1:16:01Speaker 00

  Less like, oh, my God, I can't have a panic attack right now. You know, I'm in the middle of work or I'm in the middle of XYZ. This happens to me when I'm, sometimes when I'm giving a big talk in front of an audience, I still occasionally have like a, my heart like pounds in my chest. And I start to think that people can hear it somehow. And so previously, my response to this was to like yell at myself internally and say, like, stop pounding, stop, like, you know, chill out, heart. And of course, that does not make your heart chill out. So now I'm just like, huh, there it is again. It's pounding, it's, it's going really fast. I have a fast heart rate because like I'm getting ready to give this talk.

• 1:16:46Speaker 00

  And that's okay, like, that's part of what happens when I give talks. And like that, it just like kind of, I don't know, it lets you take a step back from whatever's happening and whatever the anxious sensations are.

• 1:16:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the mindfulness, the awareness that comes with the practice of meditation that gives you just that extra space, like that moment where you are presented with a choice of how to respond rather than just, you know, reflexively reacting.

• 1:17:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:19Rich Roll?

  That becomes huge, you know, over time. Are you doing the loving kindness meditation? You called, you called Dan Harris a pussy.

• 1:17:26Speaker 00

  I know. He was kind of mad at me, but then I think he got over it.

• 1:17:31Rich Roll?

  I heard the podcast that you did with him, he was actually like, I loved it.

• 1:17:35Speaker 00

  So Dan, Dan's book helped me so much because he started out as an anxious journalist who didn't believe in meditation and like hated all this stuff.

• 1:17:45Rich Roll?

  He could be your higher power.

• 1:17:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I kind of needed someone like that because some of the stuff that I was reading when I was trying to get into meditation was like too esoteric and like it was for people who are already very zen and I needed someone who was not zen and, you know, moved in that direction. So, so Dan's book was really helpful to me, 10% happier. Yeah, I don't do the loving kindness explicitly anymore, I have to be honest. I, I don't, I don't play the tape and like sit there and do it. I try to just like sort of have it, I was so not loving or kind to myself before that like even just in the moment being like, you made a mistake, it's okay, you know.

• 1:18:28Speaker 00

  Like, everyone makes mistakes. That's like huge progress for me. That's like night and day. So, but I don't do it actively anymore.

• 1:18:37Rich Roll?

  On some level, like, this, you know, your message is the same. It's like a 10% happier message. You know, this is, it's like, you're not, you're not an entirely different person, but you're probably 10% happier than you were before you launched into this experiment.

• 1:18:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, even small changes on these, I mean, I think I've moved more than 10% on my traits that I was working on, you know, because I was like, doing everything I could.

• 1:19:04Rich Roll?

  All right, and taking the test, you actually have the stats.

• 1:19:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:09Rich Roll?

  You're beating Dan.

• 1:19:11Speaker 00

  I know. I'm so much better than him.

• 1:19:15Rich Roll?

  Right, 20% happier.

• 1:19:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, 20% happier. Take that.

• 1:19:19Rich Roll?

  Fuck that guy.

• 1:19:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it is, I mean, no one is ever gonna feel like, oh, I'm a completely different person. I'm completely unrecognizable now. You know, you are just gonna feel like you're up for more challenges. You feel more capable of taking a new type of job, maybe. You feel okay, like, facing the day without alcohol. You, you know, yeah, meditation is maybe an all right idea. You know, it's all, it's all gonna be things like this. I actually did, I made friends, like, by doing the book. And that's like, I mean, that was huge for me. I hadn't made a new friend in years.

• 1:19:56Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:19:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, my friend Alex.

• 1:20:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm like, sad to hear that, but happy that.

• 1:20:03Speaker 00

  That I stopped doing that, yeah.

• 1:20:06Rich Roll?

  A lot of this is, again, like, back to the kind of AA framework. It's, it's, there's a lot of like, fake it till you make it, like, act as if, which brings up this idea of authenticity, right? Like, okay, I'm gonna do this thing. If I want to be, you know, a sociable person who's like, fun to talk to at a party, then I have to, like, act as if I'm somebody who does that, right? And that's deeply uncomfortable and probably feels deeply inauthentic. So how do you, like, reconcile that, that, like, sense of inauthentic? We kind of talked about it earlier, but like, that sense of inauthenticity with the aspiration?

• 1:20:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess I personally just don't put a ton of stock in authenticity. Like, I just don't, because, because we're all acting so differently all the time.

• 1:21:02Rich Roll?

  You have that idea of multiple authenticities.

• 1:21:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, yeah, like, there's some, yeah, so, yeah, I write that we all have multiple authenticities, but, um, I don't, so when I was pregnant, um, my mom was like, I can't imagine you as a mother. And, um, I was like, oh, my God, like, that's so, that's scary, because that was like, one of the big fears that I had, that I was like, not the sort of person who could be a mom.

• 1:21:29Rich Roll?

  What did she mean by that?

• 1:21:30Speaker 00

  She just thought that I didn't have the personality of like, what you think of as, as a mom.

• 1:21:36Rich Roll?

  Like, the nurturing?

• 1:21:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, I wasn't like, a cuddly, nurturing, like, kind of, person. And I was like, maybe she's right, like, maybe I don't have it in me to be a mom. I'm not, I don't have the, the right personality. And what I kind of realized, and like, this, my book was already done, and I had my kid, and that wasn't an experiment, but, uh, I was like, your kid brings it out in you. Like, you, they, you become like, this nurturing, like, this, the biggest, like, hard ass, hard charging, you know, executive lady, you know, take no prisoners, like, girl boss, is gonna like, come home and like, coo and sing Baby Beluga, because like, you realize, you rise to the occasion when you have these goals in your life that are really important to you.

• 1:22:19Speaker 00

  And I'm probably not like, an Instagram mom, like, I probably, you know, I don't make homemade goldfish crackers for them or whatever, but I, like, I think I'm a good mom, and I think I'm nurturing and cuddly. It's just that, and I think that's authentic, I think that's authentically me. It just wasn't before I had this, this goal of being a good mom.

• 1:22:40Rich Roll?

  What is the most surprising, uh, experience that you've had by, you know, I'm gonna put on a new hat, and it doesn't feel like it fits, but I'm just gonna keep wearing it until it feels like it's mine, right? Only to wake up later and be like, oh, this is my hat. You know, like, I don't even think about it anymore, like, I am different in this way.

• 1:23:03Speaker 00

  Definitely the, um...

• 1:23:07Speaker 00

  Extroversion element. I, if I'm being honest, I thought it would be a little going through the motions-y. Like, I thought I would, okay, I'm gonna do improv, I'm gonna do, you know, I'm gonna make friends and like, I'll stop talking to them as soon as the book is

• 1:23:19Rich Roll?

  Soon as I turn this in, then I can go back and shut the door on everyone?

• 1:23:26Speaker 00

  Go back to watching my Netflix shows. And that really, like, didn't happen. Like, I kinda realized that I, I have this desire to connect with people. I have a desire to meet more people. Like, I haven't met all the people that I'll ever meet, you know, in, in college. Like, I, um, yeah, I kinda realized that I need to, I'm someone who needs to reach out to people, to connect with people and share experiences. And it makes my life better. It's not just like, I have to check this box because it's like eating my broccoli. It's, it, it's something to look forward to. It's something to, um, yeah, help me, help me feel more stable.

• 1:24:03Rich Roll?

  Do you think because after turning the initial article in, and then, you know, I kind of jokingly said relapse, but you did kind of like go back to your old patterns? And then, did that create a moment of clarity where you're like, oh, like, I thought I could just go back and now I'm back less happier than I was when I was doing those things that I so deeply didn't want to do?

• 1:24:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe it was the, the quote-unquote relapse. Um, I mean, I was drinking a lot during that time, so in a way...

• 1:24:35Rich Roll?

  All right, well, so you have a co-founding variable in there?

• 1:24:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly, yeah. Um, I think it was also just like, like, I did, I did feel happier. Like, everything that I did, um, you know, all the personality traits that I changed, um, involve an element of like, the person generally feels better afterward. Like, even introverts who are told to go behave like extroverts for a few minutes, then they go back and the researchers ask them, like, how do, how do you feel? And they're like, I feel great. I feel awesome. Sometimes they even say, I feel more true to myself than I did before, uh, which is kind of funny when it comes to authenticity. Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I noticed the benefits for me. And I noticed that, um, you know, the anxiety wasn't, um, doing as much for me as I thought. Like, I, I can still achieve,

• 1:25:23Speaker 00

  like, I still wrote a book. I still...

• 1:25:25Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's huge. To be like, I don't need that thing that I thought that I needed. In fact, it was holding me back.

• 1:25:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's writing the to do list, you know, 100 times as opposed to one time. Like, you only really need that one time. You only need to plan. You don't need to worry about the plans or worry, you know, incessantly about things going wrong. And to me, that was, that was kind of a big breakthrough. And honestly, like, gives me space to do more stuff because I'm not trapped in worry cycles all the time.

• 1:25:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You mentioned earlier, like volunteering at the, with the soup kitchen. So much of, of like worry and anxiety is a form of self obsession. And the antidote to that is to like, go help somebody else, like invest yourself in something bigger than you, to be of service in whatever way. Like, it's, again, it's another like AA thing. Like, if you just, if you want to break the cycle of, you know, this pattern that you're in, turn your gaze outward on, on somebody who could actually benefit from you showing up for them, even if it's in a small way. Does that, did that come up in

• 1:26:42Rich Roll?

  the research? Or what has been your experience with playing around with that?

• 1:26:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, all the studies say that like volunteering, you know, feels like making, I don't know, it depends on what study you read, but it's like hundreds of thousands of dollars more a year, you know, if you volunteer for a certain number of hours. And I think it is because of that, because it is very easy to become self obsessed, especially if you're a creative person. Like, a lot of us like have succeeded kind of because we are self obsessed. We're like going to move to the place that gives us the most opportunities and like, you know, work a million hours and like do whatever it takes and like, you're always thinking about yourself and your career and what's next. And that

• 1:27:27Speaker 00

  has a downside, which is you're always worrying about your career and what's next. And it, I think it is true that like connecting with other people, sharing your struggles, helping other people, it does help break that self obsession a little bit. And it just makes your inner weather balmy, or as Dan likes to say. One of the things that I noticed in the agreeableness chapter is that every single thing I did involved other people and like less the journalistic like,

• 1:28:00Speaker 00

  what did you know and when did you know it, but more just like sharing experiences, kind of like they do in AA. And, you know, sharing your story, relating to one another, giving each other advice, you know, what have you. I honestly think that was like the biggest thing that boosted my agreeableness was like being in community with so many different groups of people. Because I just don't really do that. Like I don't go to-

• 1:28:25Rich Roll?

  Sharing their experience.

• 1:28:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I don't go to church and I-

• 1:28:27Rich Roll?

  You wrote an AA book, you didn't even know it.

• 1:28:29Speaker 00

  I know, I know.

• 1:28:29Rich Roll?

  Have you ever been to an AA meeting?

• 1:28:31Speaker 00

  I have, for reporting, yeah. And then like when I was really, when I lived in LA in grad school, I was really lonely and I was like, maybe I should join AA. Except I wasn't like addicted to alcohol, so I wasn't sure.

• 1:28:42Rich Roll?

  That's like in, you're like, what's her name in Fight Club? Who goes to all the, all the, all the meetings, you know, because she's lonely, but she doesn't have any of the problems.

• 1:28:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, that would be me. I did talk to a lot of people in recovery for the book, though, yeah.

• 1:29:01Rich Roll?

  There's another adage that I'm, that I love. There's so many like stupid phrases,

• 1:29:08Rich Roll?

  but one that I really like is mood follows action. And it just, it goes back to this, this idea that it's, that it's action based. Like if you come into AA and, you know, choose your, choose your malfunction, like, okay, you know, you have a problem with drinking or drugs, you go in, you can't imagine, you know, what it, like getting a week sober or whatever, but you just have to like, you know, once, one day at a time, one hour at a time, like do what somebody who doesn't drink or use does, you know, act as if.

• 1:29:40Rich Roll?

  And whatever sense of discomfort that you have around it, the mood that you want to inhabit is on the other side of like taking the action you don't want to take.

• 1:29:53Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah.

• 1:29:55Rich Roll?

  And we have this idea like, I'll, I'll do it when I feel inspired to do it, you know? And of course, you never do it, right? Like, I'll go to improv when I feel like improvising.

• 1:30:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:06Rich Roll?

  It's like, no.

• 1:30:08Speaker 00

  You're never gonna feel that way.

• 1:30:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that's behavioral activation theory is like a big part of this. And that just is like, you go out and do the thing and then, you know, mood follows action. You, you will feel a certain way after you've done it. And so that, that's really a lot of what personality change involves. Because you, you aren't ever gonna feel like improvising. You're not ever gonna feel like quitting drinking. I mean, and, and some of them were kind of interesting because I talked to one, this didn't make it into the book, but I talked to one guy who quit drinking. And then it like set off this like positive chain reaction of other things he wanted to change. And then he actually ended up changing his whole career. He was a lawyer and he's now a therapist or in, in school to be a therapist.

• 1:30:54Speaker 00

  But it was like, the drinking was like, I don't know, the thing, like, once he got past that discomfort, it was like, all these other things were like suddenly more possible.

• 1:31:02Rich Roll?

  Oh, I could do that thing I never thought I could do. Like, it's a, anytime you take those actions, no matter how small, they're esteem building. And they give you a, a greater sense of empowerment that you can use in other areas of your life. That's the beautiful thing about it. They're transferable, I guess.

• 1:31:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:31:21Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:31:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:22Rich Roll?

  But there is a bit of a weird conflict here that I guess is sort of Buddhist. Like, there's a self-acceptance piece, like you have to accept, you have to sort of see yourself clearly, you know? To identify those patterns, to understand the behaviors that aren't serving you with clear eyes and not judge yourself for that, but truly accept yourself for that while also accepting that there needs to be things that need to change in order for you to feel as happy and as fulfilled as you know that you can be.

• 1:31:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I still, I kind of wish this was not called personality. I would just call it something else.

• 1:32:04Rich Roll?

  Well, that's why I was like, where does mindset, attitude, personality, choice, like all of these things, it is like, it's sort of like we're trying to put a hard science label on something that really resists it.

• 1:32:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I guess the way that I like settled this, and like everyone's going to settle it a different way, is that I'm just like not that attached to my personality. Like I, I accept myself, like my inner core being, like the Olga who's out in the world trying to do things, but I'm not like, and you have to do it by being an introvert and like, or by being super neurotic. Like I, I kind of, I'm very loosely attached to the traits that I use to get there, basically. And I, for me, that's like what feels healthiest, but I feel like everyone else comes to a different way to reconcile those two.

• 1:32:55Rich Roll?

  What's the thing that you're still holding on to? Like when you talk to your therapist and you're like, okay, you're still doing that. How's that, how's that working out?

• 1:33:03Speaker 00

  Oh, great question.

• 1:33:04Rich Roll?

  Like the chat, like the thing that you're just really still don't want to release your grip on, even though you know it's not.

• 1:33:11Speaker 00

  Not good. I still, okay, so we have a kid now and he has to meet milestones and milestones are like a straight A student.

• 1:33:25Rich Roll?

  How old is he?

• 1:33:27Speaker 00

  Like fodder. So he's 16 months, but you know, they have like, are they rolling over? Are they blah, blah, blah? So he like, when he doesn't meet the milestones, I lose it. I like completely like, I call the pediatrician like 4,000 times. I like make him all these appointments. He's, he's already in all these different like therapies to like try to meet the milestones. He's in like occupational therapy, even though he's a baby. I really like, I get obsessive about the milestones and like thinking that I can like make the milestones happen faster or on a certain timeline. So I've been trying to like. Realize that the milestones may happen when they happen and that I don't have perfect control over them.

• 1:34:10Rich Roll?

  I think this is a really big piece. I think this is really important. I just know for myself, I have four kids. They're all older now, like our youngest is 17, oldest is 30. You talk in the book about blaming your parents. Like, we look at our parents and we want to like point the finger, "Oh, I'm this way because of them," or whatever. And there's an unhealthy aspect to that. Like, we have to take responsibility and agency for ourselves. But also, we should recognize that we've inherited, you know, traits and patterns as a result of our upbringing. And we all have unhealthy versions of those baked into ourselves as a result of whatever experiences, you know, the environment in which we were

• 1:34:53Rich Roll?

  raised, or, you know, I think the word like "childhood trauma" is sort of thrown around a little too cavalierly. But, you know, nobody had a perfect childhood. And so, there's residue of that within all of us that then shows up in our behavior patterns when we're adults. And I think that we have a responsibility to transcend those, for ourselves, of course, but really for our children. Like, are you going to perpetuate this generational pattern that, you know, could be traced back, you know, however, how far back into your family

• 1:35:31Rich Roll?

  tree? Or are you going to arrest it in its tracks so that your child doesn't have to not only inherit that pattern, but have to, you know, kind of suffer the consequences of you behaving like that in their presence? And that's, that's the huge, like, for me, like, that's the whole thing with parenting.

• 1:35:52Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:35:52Rich Roll?

  And so, this is like, you're like, this is your Mount Everest, I think.

• 1:35:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Being a cycle breaker is, uh, is challenging. It's...

• 1:36:01Rich Roll?

  And then you do all this work and then you're tired and under duress and then suddenly you're like doing the thing, you know, you behave in the way you promised that you wouldn't. It's so, it's so deeply baked into us.

• 1:36:13Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. I mean, I think he was, I mean, it was like just recently, we started out like, we're gonna be gentle parents. We're never gonna yell at him and we're never gonna punish him like in any way. We're gonna be super nice. He started doing this thing where he would pull the like childproof cover out of the socket and then to like double up on the danger, he would put that in his mouth, which is a choking hazard, and then he would try to stick his finger in the socket.

• 1:36:39Rich Roll?

  It's a triple threat.

• 1:36:40Speaker 00

  And so we're like constantly like keeping him from doing this, like, please, stop, stop, stop. No, no, no. Let's play with something else. Like you're like asleep deprived, trying to keep a toddler from doing this thing. So I like pull him away from it. He like crawls back over and like does it again. And I like let it rip. I was like, what did I just fucking say? Like, yeah, and I realized I was like, oh, that's like a voice from my past. Like, what did I just fucking say? Like, you know?

• 1:37:04Rich Roll?

  But then Judd says like, be curious about that.

• 1:37:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like, why did I, why did I reach for that phrasing? But it is, it's like they do test you and they test like, what is your instinctual reaction to difficulty? And like, you know, he doesn't know. He's like, oh, this is cool.

• 1:37:24Rich Roll?

  That's why, that's why our children are our teachers, because they hold this mirror up to the truth of like who you are. You know what I mean?

• 1:37:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:33Rich Roll?

  And, and what a gift you're in a position to give your son because you, you did all this work, you know, and you took it really seriously and you made all of these changes. Like, that is an incredible blessing that, you know, almost no one does. Like, it's, it's really an incredible act of service for your child. I mean, to the world also to like, here's what I learned, you know, have at it or whatever. But it's, it's an amazing thing, I think.

• 1:38:01Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:38:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. I hope it, I mean, I hope it works out. Maybe it was all for him and like, I don't know. If he has a better childhood because of it, then it was worth it.

• 1:38:11Rich Roll?

  Well, the funny, yeah, it's like when you're a new parent, you're like, here's how it's gonna go. You know, it's gonna be like this. And it's like, I'm always like, oh, yeah, okay. Well, check in. I'll, I'll see you in a couple of years. Like, let me know how that's going.

• 1:38:21Speaker 00

  Only organic snacks.

• 1:38:22Rich Roll?

  I mean, this will test, you know, all of your control issues, you know, every idea that you have about how, you know, who this person is gonna be and what they're gonna do and. How you're gonna, you know, parent them through it, like, you know, you get really tested on that stuff.

• 1:38:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:36Rich Roll?

  For your growth and evolution.

• 1:38:38Speaker 00

  Right, right, right. Yeah, I have tried to resist, like, you know, I know people were like, I'm gonna have kids and they're gonna be pro tennis players just like me. And I'm like, I would avoid putting that out there, because if they get a whiff that you want them to be a pro tennis player, they're gonna like, do the opposite.

• 1:38:54Rich Roll?

  Also, like, why do you need them to be, like, what is missing inside of you that that's so important to you, that they need to be that, like, what's unfulfilled in you that you need them to fill it for you?

• 1:39:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:05Rich Roll?

  Like, that's, that's not great.

• 1:39:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know. We're, we're trying really hard to avoid, like, putting our stuff on him.

• 1:39:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's hard, you know, it's hard. And I just, I just think, like, any change, even, you know, no matter how small, is, is, is just a really difficult thing that I think, um, people make sound easy, and it's not. Uh, but in your work, in your personal experience, like, for the person who, uh, you know, is stuck, or is like, I can't get out of this, like, self-defeating loop, or I just constantly get in my way, or I am neurotic, or I'm, you know, I'm terrified of putting myself in, in, in the mildest of social situations, like, what are some of the tools that you learned, that

• 1:39:53Rich Roll?

  you practice, or, or that some of these experts have advocated for, that can, can get these people, uh, you know, off the couch, or in the world, and, and putting this stuff into motion?

• 1:40:07Speaker 00

  I will give a concrete tip, and then a more esoteric tip. Um, concrete tip, if you are someone who has trouble, like, let's say you're like, okay, I just moved to a new city, I need to meet people, I am having trouble meeting people, I would just sign up for an activity that recurs regularly, and that you don't have to organize, because it's always gonna be there, whether you show up or not. But it would be better if you showed up. So like, you've already committed to bring the snacks, or you've committed to, whatever, it's tennis, and they need someone to play doubles. Like, I, it's, it's too hard for introverts to go from couch to, like, Flourishing social life, we need something to like push us out of the house.

• 1:40:52Speaker 00

  And you know, it can be a meetup, it can be a book club, it can be anything where you're not texting people, let's get together Wednesday, let's get together Thursday, whatever it is. So that's my specific tip. I would say like more broadly, this comes from Stephen Hayes and is like kind of toward the end of the book, but I would just think about like your values and what you like want in life. I would go back to that definition of personality from Nathan Hudson and the other change researchers and think about like, you know, what is it that you want? Like, what does life look like when you're on your deathbed or before you're on your deathbed? What does life look like in middle

• 1:41:30Speaker 00

  age? And, you know, what's keeping you from doing that? For me, a big part of, I like knew I wanted an adult child late in life. And the only way to have an adult child is of course to have a baby child. But I was so anxious about becoming a parent. That was a huge obstacle for me. And so you really have to think about connecting your behavior to your broader goals and your broader values. Because that's the only thing that's going to motivate you to to actually do all this stuff, which is hard day to day.

• 1:42:08Rich Roll?

  It gets further complicated when you have an inner monologue telling you that you're undeserving of these things, or you're not good enough. You know, I think a lot of people have that. I suffer from that, you know, from time to time. That's constantly, you know, defeating you from that impulse to take that first action.

• 1:42:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, it can be tough. I talked to one person, Zach Hambrick, who his parents were like dropping him off at college and they were like, we'll probably be picking you up soon because you're going to fail out. And like, talk about inner monologue, like he did. He had this monologue that he's not good at school, he's not academic. And what worked for him and for a lot of other people is actually like finding someone else who's kind. Kind of like that, who's kind of at your same level and like partnering with them to do whatever it is that you want to do. Like, there's this element of like healthy peer pressure that like you learn strategies from one another. You kind of, you motivate one another, you give each other ideas.

• 1:43:13Speaker 00

  And, you know, it won't work if it's someone that you're, is like falling far behind you. And it won't work if it's someone who's like so far ahead of you that you, you don't know how they got there. A lot of times I think of mentorship as like, I need to pick, you know, someone amazing, like, you know, and it really, it can be someone who's kind of at your same level, like as long as they're dedicated to the same goal. So that's what he did. He found like a study buddy. They went through college together. And he's, he's actually like a tenured psychology professor now.

• 1:43:40Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:43:41Speaker 00

  Going from like making D's, I don't know.

• 1:43:45Rich Roll?

  You're such a high agency person and, you know, thinking about your, your backstory, which we didn't even really talk about. I mean, you bounced around, you grew up in a, in like Odessa, Texas, right?

• 1:43:56Speaker 00

  Uh, Midland.

• 1:43:57Rich Roll?

  Midland, yeah. Friday Night Lights territory, daughter of Russian immigrants and, and really had to like, make your way in the world to become this person. And, and you did, and it's something to be proud of. But when I think about you, I'm like, oh, well, this is a person who, when they put their mind to something, like they make it happen, right? So why should it be any different when it comes to personality change? You know, but then you read the stories in here and you're like, oh my gosh, she's so human, you know? Like she has all the fears and frailties that, that we all harbor secretly or, or publicly.

• 1:44:35Rich Roll?

  But I am curious about the person who does, who, who is living a life in which they don't feel like their actions matter, you know, like they feel disenfranchised or, or disconnected and things haven't worked out. Like they don't have that track record to say like, oh, I did this thing in the past and here's how it moved my life forward.

• 1:44:58Speaker 00

  I would say that they probably do have a track record. Like, they probably have something they're passionate about. You know, it may not be their job. You know, it may not be the city that they live in, but there might be a hobby there, or there might be some sort of interest that they have, or create, I don't know, creative spark, or most of us want something. Like, you know, it's very rare to be so Buddhist that you're okay with, like, no desires.

• 1:45:26Rich Roll?

  Then you've actually transcended the mortal coil. You're enlightened at that point, right? Congratulations.

• 1:45:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So I would just, like, pursue that. You know, maybe it's not through work. You know, the people that I met in improv, like, one of them was like, an accounting professor who lived in the suburbs and, like, his kids had gone to college and he, like, didn't have any friends. And like, I don't know, I mean, that's, that's not like a picture of, wow, everyone wants to be this guy. But, you know, he decided to do improv because it was like, it would get him out of his head, you know, something fun. He met people. It wasn't, let's get drunk together, you know. You know, it was creative. It nurtured a part of him that, you know, maybe his daily life didn't really. And I think that's okay.

• 1:46:13Speaker 00

  I think it's okay to have, you know, kind of a nine to five and have your interesting thing be afterward.

• 1:46:22Rich Roll?

  But the point, the most salient point in that for me, is just the practicality of it. Like, I think, you know, we were talking about, like, what's the difference between personality and attitude and mindset? The same applies when you start talking about values and purpose and meaning and passion. And they're all words, you know, that we share with, well, in a well-intentioned way. But I think, you know, it's also confusing. Like, I don't know what my passion is. Like, what's my purpose? You know, and I think it's paralyzing to a lot of people, or makes them feel bad. Like, I don't know what my purpose is. I guess I'm supposed to, like, and I don't.

• 1:47:02Rich Roll?

  Which is why I brought up curiosity earlier because like we all have something we're curious about and even if it's just like, what's the one thing you're willing to, what's the one little step you can take, you know, to kind of nourish that curiosity? And developing that habit alone, kind of like, just starts to move your path in a little bit of a different direction without worrying about like what your passion or your purpose is.

• 1:47:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would, I would not try to identify a passion as your first step.

• 1:47:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, those things happen as a consequence of acting as if and faking it till you make it and just, you know, getting out into the world and doing things that, that are uncomfortable until they're not.

• 1:47:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, Carol Dweck had a great study, this isn't in the book, but I wrote about it a few years ago, where she like, basically found that every college student thinks they have to find their passion and that should be their major.

• 1:47:50Rich Roll?

  That's like, that's, that's, that's an act of violence. I have a 17 year old daughter right now and we're going and visiting schools and, and she feels like she's supposed to know what, you know, because they're like, well, you can declare your major and it's like, how is, like, you, you're not supposed to know, you shouldn't know, like, the whole point of going is to like, explore your curiosity and figure out what excites you.

• 1:48:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's, you know, and it's not giving up on your passion to change your major either, like, it's part of, part of learning and, and some of this, yeah, it can be developed, it's, you know, as you get better at something, you're like, oh, my passion is, you know, neurobiology or whatever, you know, because you happen to be good at it.

• 1:48:31Rich Roll?

  Well, that brings up the whole subject of, of like quitting, that you bring up in here too, right? As a very conscientious person, like, probably quitting is, is difficult, like, once you say you're gonna do something, like, then saying, yeah, I'm not gonna do this anymore, is that hard for you?

• 1:48:48Speaker 00

  It was hard and I wanted to not.

• 1:48:53Speaker 00

  Have too much of an escape route for the book where it's like, as soon as I didn't like something, I could just quit it. Because you can't, you can.

• 1:49:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:02Speaker 00

  So it was.

• 1:49:02Rich Roll?

  Like the meetups that you were.

• 1:49:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, like, do I, do I keep doing these meetups that are like death marches sometimes? Or do I, you know, like, you know, can I quit them? I think like, I mean, everyone's going to come to a different decision. Two, two kind of things on that note is, is like, first of all, like, I would get less attached to the specific activities that you're doing and more to like what you're working toward. So if you're trying to make more friends, you know, but you're not any good at pickleball, you don't have to stick with pickleball. You can do something else. Book club or whatever. So you can change up the activities that are getting you there. And, and the personality change research, they give them like a list of different things they can do. It's not like you have to do improv.

• 1:49:47Speaker 00

  The other thing is something that I've had to realize with having a kid is that like, you can have like seasons of your life where you do different things and that's okay. Like, that's not giving up or quitting, or you're not being true to whatever your mission is. But like, when you have a newborn, you're just not going to be able to have as active of a social life unless all of your friends come to your house, like during the baby's wake windows. There's going to be times of your life when you're maybe solely focused on work or, or focused on having a new baby or, or, you know, whatever other thing. And it's okay as long as it doesn't, you know, take over your life.

• 1:50:27Rich Roll?

  Is that, or has that been a challenge for you as a, as a striver?

• 1:50:35Speaker 00

  So our, our like baby and newborn experience was so all consuming that it was,

• 1:50:43Speaker 00

  there wasn't really.

• 1:50:44Rich Roll?

  It removed the choice.

• 1:50:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I didn't, like, all my friends live in DC, a 45 minute drive away. And they're like, hey, come get drunk with us. And I was like, I cannot.

• 1:50:55Speaker 00

  So, uh, that part was hard, but like babies are just so all consuming that you can't,

• 1:51:03Speaker 00

  you, you're like, this is the season I'm in, I guess the baby decided. It does get harder like later on, like I'm here, he's with my parents. And I'm like, am I a bad mom for

• 1:51:15Speaker 00

  enjoying myself?

• 1:51:16Rich Roll?

  No, a bad mom doesn't wonder whether they're a bad mom.

• 1:51:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe.

• 1:51:21Rich Roll?

  Of all the things that you tried and explored, what was the most deeply uncomfortable of all of them? Maybe beyond improv, maybe it was improv, but we talked about that.

• 1:51:34Speaker 00

  The most deeply uncomfortable in some ways was this conversation workshop I went to in London,

• 1:51:42Speaker 00

  which was all about having deeper and more meaningful conversations with people and how to do that. And it was very interesting and good subject matter. But I think I just have a cultural difference with British people where they're so reserved. And even in my introverted state, I am just a lot more gearless and over-sherry at baseline than they are. And I think it maybe comes off as rude or just like not culturally like what they want to be happening.

• 1:52:19Rich Roll?

  What was the context, though?

• 1:52:21Speaker 00

  We were all in a room together and just talking about conversations and having deep conversations with one another for like three days.

• 1:52:31Rich Roll?

  But you're going deeper than they are?

• 1:52:33Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:52:34Rich Roll?

  What was it that was uncomfortable about it?

• 1:52:37Speaker 00

  So she would ask us a question like, oh, has anyone ever had this experience? And it was just like dead silence in the room. Like a long, like no one raising their hand, like a long, long, long silence.

• 1:52:51Rich Roll?

  So you're like, I have to be the extrovert here?

• 1:52:54Speaker 00

  I'm like, I, so I would like raise, I was like, does she want me to volunteer? Or is this like a normal British silence that I need to just be silent through? You know what I mean? Like there was just like some cultural things where, and then I felt like I was more willing to just like say whatever I was thinking. And for them, it really was like, like the class kind of gave them like permission to like dig deeper and like share more than they would normally share.

• 1:53:20Rich Roll?

  In that context, though, you're like the leader that you're like, you've got the American, you know, kind of like showing them how to like, you know, like talk about their feelings or something, you know?

• 1:53:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. I was wondering toward the end, like if they're like, I hope I never see this girl again because she talks too much. I don't know. I really, it was, it was challenging because then like we were strangers, basically. And we were like, we would have these conversations where it's like, the person shares something and then like, you, some, some of the times we would have like these scripted lists of questions and they were like, what did that mean to you? Or why was that important to you? Which I've, I've learned is like a very good conversational strategy when you kind of don't understand why the person's telling you something. But like, you met this person like, I don't know, 30 minutes ago and suddenly you're asking like, you know, what did that like breakup mean to you? You know, it's like,

• 1:54:16Speaker 00

  you're probably used to it as a podcast host, but it's, in day to day life, it can be a little like, strange, I guess. I don't know.

• 1:54:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, you know, I keep harping back onto it, but like, you go to AA meetings, it's like wearing it on their sleeve, you know what I mean?

• 1:54:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54:31Rich Roll?

  But is that being an extrovert or agreeableness?

• 1:54:35Speaker 00

  It was, it was just like testing my comfort with being in a situation where I want to be liked. And I don't totally understand the culture.

• 1:54:46Rich Roll?

  Right, I see. So the discomfort with like not knowing what the rules are?

• 1:54:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54:50Rich Roll?

  And if you don't know what the rules are, then how are you going to people pleasing and curry favor and feel like you belong?

• 1:54:56Speaker 00

  Yes. Because even if you go on a Bumble BFF date in your city, like going on a-

• 1:55:03Rich Roll?

  Which I didn't know what that was until I read your book.

• 1:55:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:05Rich Roll?

  It's like, it's like a dating app to, to make friends.

• 1:55:08Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 1:55:09Rich Roll?

  I didn't even know that was a thing.

• 1:55:10Speaker 00

  So, let's say, so I like, you know, would go meet up with someone who works like for Congress, like it's not that different. Like they're not that different from me. I kind of get how the conversation's going to go. We have basically the same values. Like, we're going to talk for an hour to 90 minutes. We're both going to have one drink and then we're going to pay and leave. Like, I kind of get it, you know, and we're both not going to ask anything too weird. But in that setting, it was so strange, like the questions we were asking each other and the like, just the way we were approaching the conversations. And then, I think I just, like, I don't fit into British culture.

• 1:55:50Rich Roll?

  Well, speaking of conversations and not fitting in, I'd love for you to share a little bit about what you learned about how to do this more agreeably. I mean, obviously, we're all experiencing a very interesting moment right now in which disagreeability is paramount. And our ability to just share the same space with people and communicate with some degree of compassion and commitment to listening and understanding is very much not happening right now. And we're seeing, and it's like, if we can't figure that out, then democracy will not

• 1:56:35Rich Roll?

  survive. It's an existential crisis to the health and future of our country, I think. And it all starts with how two people sit across from each other and look each other in the eye and communicate and exchange. And this is being threatened profoundly at the moment. So what did you learn about conversation and how to communicate with people who don't share the same worldview? And it's an inflamed situation where every word feels like a provocation.

• 1:57:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, it can be so challenging. So there's a psychologist I quote in the book, and I'm going to butcher the quote, I'm sorry. It's like disagreement raises the possibility that we are stupid or wrong. And if you think about it, that's how it can feel. Because if I'm telling you that XYZ happened, you're telling me that ABC happened, one of us is right, or presumably, or one of us is wrong. And then what does that mean about the person who's wrong?

• 1:57:42Rich Roll?

  Especially when you're self-identifying with that idea.

• 1:57:46Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah. What I would try to do is like... Break out of the exact facts of whatever you're talking about and try to get at the deeper layer of why that person is telling you what they're telling you. Like, they're making some sort of bid for connection even with whatever thing they're saying that is blatantly wrong in your view, you know? And, or, you know, just like, how did that person come about those views? Why are those views important to them? So, I guess I'll give a real example.

• 1:58:27Speaker 00

  My parents like Vladimir Putin. And sometimes I, well, I haven't been doing this, but I sometimes think that our conversations about him would be more productive if I was like, what do you like about him? Like, what, or what does he do for you? What does he represent for you? Why is he meaningful? Like, why are you telling me about him? Like, what, what do you want me to say in response to this? Like, because when they, like, come to me and tell me about Vladimir Putin, like, they're trying to do something. They're, they're, they're trying to either, like, say, like, hey, this is really important

• 1:59:11Speaker 00

  to me and I want it to be important to you, too. Hey, like, I'm looking for something to talk with you about, you know? It's, there's some underlying thing there that is not just like Vladimir Putin, the person. Like, and, and I, with, admitting that I have not successfully done this yet, I think that if we try to, I mean, not to make the whole world like a mushy kumbaya thing, but like, if we try to get more into the feelings that people have that are motivating what they're saying, that can be a more interesting and fruitful conversation than, you know, whatever the specifics are of it, you know? Because it's probably something like, I feel like Russians are disrespected wherever they

• 1:59:56Speaker 00

  go, and he makes me feel respected, you know? And it's like, oh, okay, why do you feel Russians are disrespected? Why is respect important to you? What are some times that you have felt respected? Like, there are so many interesting questions and avenues in that direction that aren't like, but do you remember when on June 27th, he said XYZ, you know?

• 2:00:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's not a productive strategy. But I think the path to empathy and understanding is going beneath it to try to understand the motivation behind it, because everybody's right from their own perspective, right? And they're being animated or motivated by something that they care about. And that thing they care about is probably something you care about, too, and trying to find shared ground there and trying to do it in the context of,

• 2:00:46Rich Roll?

  you know, scenarios that are inflammatory, you know, makes it difficult, which brings it back to like mindfulness and all these other things that you shared about it, because that allows you to inhabit that space a little bit more detached and not threatened by it. Because you're not wagering your identity.

• 2:01:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:09Rich Roll?

  And to hold your own ideas more loosely, too.

• 2:01:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, actually, at that conversation workshop that was a little weird, I shared that my parents have this belief, because I was the oversharer of the group. And there was another guy there who was like, well, you know, like, it kind of makes sense from their perspective, right? Like, if, you know, if I, like, moved abroad during, like, Obama's presidency, I'd be like, he's amazing, even if everyone, like, in that country didn't like him.

• 2:01:42Rich Roll?

  There's a pride of where they grew up. And it's probably hard for them, and they feel lonely. And, you know, they want to hold on to, you know, what was great about the place that they grew up in.

• 2:01:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:54Rich Roll?

  And, you know, are they exposing themselves to state-sponsored propaganda? Or like, you know, what's informing this?

• 2:02:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:02:03Rich Roll?

  And so, and that message is probably selling them an idea that, you know, if you believed it to be true, like, you would agree with also.

• 2:02:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And journalists do this all the time, you know, when we write stories about people, we're like, this person believes this, and that's why they want this. And this is the obstacle to them getting that, you know, and here's the story about it. And, you know, we don't start out with, like, interrogating their belief system or, you know, whatever it is they want.

• 2:02:33Rich Roll?

  How have you found this, just as a journalist who writes for The Atlantic and has written for The New York Times, like in this moment where, you know, there's a distrust of media, institutionalized media, and a certain regard about coastal elitism with respect to this kind of writing, like when you go out in the world and you interview people, or you tell people what you do, like, do you run up against that kind of stuff?

• 2:03:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I do. I mean, it's gotten harder, for sure, like, than 10 years ago to interview, I guess I'll just say conservatives. Yeah, it's gotten harder because there's a lot of anti-media rhetoric. I mean, we try to reassure people, tell them what kind of story it's going to be, you know, tell them why we're looking to talk to them, give examples of other stories that have taken their ideas seriously. You know, that's kind of all you can do is like, sort of be like, I come in peace, and then, like, they can ultimately make the decision about whether or not to talk to you. I have done stories, though,

• 2:03:44Speaker 00

  involving lots and lots of conservatives, and I actually interviewed a January 6 participant.

• 2:03:50Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's a perfect example of like, you know, what is motivating that person?

• 2:03:55Speaker 00

  She, yeah, and I think it was like, actually, a really interesting experience because I was like, I could kind of see, like, I would not do January 6, but I was like, I get like, why, like, you put all these things together to lead you to January 6. Like, I get where you were in your life, and like, what Donald Trump offered you, and like, why that led to you doing this. Because, like, yeah, it just like, kind of made sense to me. She's also from my hometown, which helped probably in helping it make sense to me, but. Yeah, I mean, often like if you just tell people like, look, I want to understand your perspective on this. I want, I want to know what would make someone want to participate

• 2:04:39Speaker 00

  in January 6th. They're like, okay, yeah, like, I want to tell you.

• 2:04:45Rich Roll?

  And had you stayed in your hometown and lived that person's life, like, you would have made the same choice that she made.

• 2:04:52Speaker 00

  Possibly. I mean, yeah, maybe.

• 2:04:54Rich Roll?

  At least, you know, entertaining the plausibility of that.

• 2:04:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, potentially.

• 2:05:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah. All right. Final parting words. Like, what is, what is the, what is like the overarching 10,000-foot view on personality and our agency to shift it that you want people to walk away with?

• 2:05:16Speaker 00

  I would say, I wrote recently, like, on my Substack, that a better title for this book might have been, "You Have It In You," which is just that if there's some challenge in your life or something that you're facing, or something unfamiliar, that you probably have it in you to face that challenge. Like, you probably have the skills and the traits that are necessary to do that, and you just need to nurture them. You need to go out and act as if, fake it till you make it, and rise to the occasion, and you can. But don't let your, your personality determine the things that you do in life.

• 2:05:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think we're all, we all have untapped potential, that if we're courageous enough to face and wrestle with, could make our lives better, I think. And I love that. It's a, you know, again, it's back to like, agency. It's very empowering to hear that.

• 2:06:11Speaker 00

  I hope so.

• 2:06:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's beautiful. What are you working on now? What's the next book? What's the next thing that you're asking yourself?

• 2:06:18Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:06:20Rich Roll?

  What, what journey are you gonna go on now?

• 2:06:22Speaker 00

  What's wrong with you now? I've been writing a lot about parenting and like, by my struggles and successes, such as they are.

• 2:06:29Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, I look forward to the parenting book.

• 2:06:31Speaker 00

  Thanks.

• 2:06:32Rich Roll?

  Olga, this was great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

• 2:06:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you so much.

• 2:06:36Rich Roll?

  Me, but better. I am, I am me, but a little bit better for having talked, talked to you today. And I think everybody out there listening or watching will be a little bit better for, for checking out your book, your wonderful book. So

• 2:06:50Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 2:06:50Rich Roll?

  Thanks for writing it.

• 2:06:51Speaker 00

  Thanks so much.

• 2:06:52Rich Roll?

  Cheers. Peace.

• 2:06:57Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the

• 2:07:38Rich Roll?

  help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music was created, all the way back in 2012, by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper

• 2:08:22Rich Roll?

  Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support, see you back here soon. Peace. Plants.