The UFC Cashes In, Plus a Truly Riveting 1990s Cowboys Documentary With Ariel Helwani, Cousin Sal, and Bryan Curtis

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ariel Helwani to react to the news of UFC landing a blockbuster streaming deal with Paramount and discuss what it means for the fans, the fighters, and the company (3:01). Then, Bryan Curtis and Cousin Sal join to talk about the new Cowboys documentary, 'America’s Team: The Gambler and His Cowboys,' and reminisce about the early-’90s Cowboys (49:55). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Ariel Helwani, Cousin Sal, and Bryan Curtis Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat, or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what. You're gonna want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season. Whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're gonna want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three, Cancun.

• 0:44Bill Simmons?

  Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. Bill Simmons Podcast, brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network, where we have new rewatchables that went up Monday night. We did Rollerball, which came out 50 years ago and is the second greatest modern sports movie in the whole arc. When you go Longest Yard, 1974, Rollerball, 75, and then we're off. Rocky, Bad News Bears, Slapshot. This movie's awesome. I can't believe how well it's aged. Talked about it with Brian Koppelman. Producer Craig was out of his mind. Really fun podcast, and you can watch it on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. Coming up in a second, we're gonna talk to Ariel Hawani

• 1:28Bill Simmons?

  about this massive, massive Paramount UFC development slash deal, which is gonna change the face of how we watch UFC. And it's gonna change Paramount as a streamer, and there's so many different ramifications. We go into all of them. So get ready for that. And then Cousin Sal, who is gonna be on here every Sunday night when the football season starts. But him and Brian Curtis came on because Dallas Cowboys mania is about to happen thanks to this Netflix documentary. It's coming out this weekend. And, and it's just, it's unbelievable. And we dove into all the things we learned from it. It's not coming out for a few more days, but we really just wanted to talk about early 90s Cowboys

• 2:13Bill Simmons?

  and just what an amazing, amazing, amazing, crazy, bonkers era that was. It just reignited a lot of football stuff for us. So Sal Curtis, second part of this, and then, and that's the pod. Wanted to mention the Celtics, it came out today that, That Wicke Grossbeck, who sold the team with his family to Bill Chisholm for $6.1 billion, is not going to be the governor. Initially, when they said the deal, they said he was going to be the governor for up to three years. On this podcast, I talked about that. I was dubious of that, that it would be three years. I thought he would be passing the baton sooner. And now it's literally sooner. He's, he's done. It's going to be Chisholm as the governor.

• 2:55Bill Simmons?

  So Wicke Grossbeck brought to Celtics 2008 title, 2024 title, professionalized the team in all these great ways. I really liked him. I thought he was a great owner. And now it's, it's done. Not surprising. This is how it goes. This out went with Mark Cuban as well. But, but yeah, so that's it. So now we have the Bill Chisholm era is officially here in Boston. We'll see if the team can be half decent. Anyway, all right, that's it. Podcast coming up in a second. We'll take a break. Pearl Jam and then Arl Helwani next.

• 3:53Bill Simmons?

  All right, recording this Tuesday morning, Pacific time. Arl Helwani is here. It's tough to book him. He's doing like four hours of content every day for Uncrowned on Yahoo. He pops on here every once in a while. This is the biggest UFC story, not only of the year, but one of the biggest ones ever because Paramount just went all in and they bought UFC, basically 1.1 billion a year. It's way more money than I think anyone was expecting. And there's so many ramifications out of this, but the biggest one is that the whole concept of the number of pay-per-views and just how we're going to get content is completely shifting and the pay-per-view era. Is basically over. This is it. Now, now the, the numbers are going to come down. There's going

• 4:37Bill Simmons?

  to be stuff on CBS. They're going to be making the sport accessible in a completely different way. This feels like a win was my first takeaway for UFC fans.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%. And by the way, thank you for having me back on. It's been a minute. You look fantastic. I move everything just to be on the program. So this is still number one.

• 4:55Bill Simmons?

  You look great too.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you. Um, it's gigantic. So there's basically four entities involved. Number one is Skydance Paramount. They have this big merger. They officially finalized it last week. David Ellison, the son of Larry Ellison, he wants to make a big splash. He does the South Park deal. But, you know, Paramount and CBS, they are in the sports business. There's the NFL, there's the Masters, there's Champions League on Paramount Plus, and then the final on CBS. But they don't own a sport here in the United States. They had an opportunity to own a sport. So to me, it's a no brainer. You can argue that they paid a little bit too much, all that stuff, but they can own a sport and they could do a lot with it over the course of seven years. And yes, the number for them by themselves

• 5:37Speaker 01

  is a big one, but I always thought they would get the UFC, that is, and TKO would get over a billion a year for their rights. I just thought it was going to be split up. So that was surprise number one. We all thought they would go the way of the NFL, NBA, et cetera, where they would split it up among two or three different entities. They only go to one. That's surprise number one.

• 5:57Bill Simmons?

  By the way, I think, I think that was happening all the way through June. I think that's where we were heading, where it was going to be Netflix getting the numbered pay per views and ESPN get everything else. And I think that's where everybody thought this is where we're landing.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if you believe Ari Emanuel and Mark Shapiro, who said on CNBC on Monday, as of late last week, that was the plan. The plan was the 30 Fight Nights to Paramount, and then they were going to sell the 13 numbered pay per views or PLEs, if they want to call them that now, like WWE, to someone else. But once the Skydance slash Paramount deal went through on Thursday, in 48 hours, they said it took just 48 hours. They said, we want the whole freaking pie. And so that's why it went to them for 1.1 billion a year. And so it's a win for Them because they can own the sport. Obviously, you know, for the UFC brass for TKO, it's a win because their previous deal was about 500 million a year with ESPN dating back to 2019.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  So now they go from 500 million a year to 1.1 billion a year. I would say that's a win. Obviously, as you just said, it signals the end of pay-per-view starting next year. But it did make for a very awkward dance yesterday, Bill, because at the beginning of the day, you had Mark Shapiro, COO and president of TKO say, uh, pay-per-view is dead. It's antiquated. We're off pay-per-view. Only old things are on pay-per-view. And then you had Dana by the end of the, the day saying, uh, well, I actually have to sell a pay-per-view this Saturday. UFC 319 and I have five left on ESPN. So don't quite kill it just yet. That was a little bit awkward, but they'll figure it out. And then we just move very quickly forward for the fans.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Obviously it's a no-brainer because if you're paying 1299 for the, the premium package on Paramount Plus or 799 for the essential package. And then some shows on CBS, it's way cheaper now to be a UFC fan. Here's the biggest one, though. What about the fighters? I had Tom, Tom Aspinall, the UFC heavyweight champion on my show yesterday. He knew nothing of the deal. He's asking questions like, well, what about my pay-per-view points? For those that don't know, certain fighters and the champions will get points based on the amount of pay-per-views you sell. Well, we're celebrating the death of pay-per-view. What about the champions who rely heavily on those points? Do the, do the purses go up as a result of 1.1 billion coming in? Are the fighters getting any percentage of this deal like they do in the NBA 50%? No, as of right now, they're getting 0%.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  So there's many different permutations here, but overall, as far as the fans are concerned, yes, it's a huge win because it's now cheaper to be a fan starting next year.

• 8:22Bill Simmons?

  You left out Redbird, which was the other piece of this. So Redbird owns 22.5% of Paramount. Jerry Carden owned that, that whole group and they've been buying up sports. Different, they own different sports assets. They own pieces of teams. They own a piece of Fenway Sports Group, all these different things. And they really want to get into sports with Paramount. That was one of the reasons that they grabbed a big piece of it. There were no sports left. This was it. Like the NFL, I think now gets the CBS package, gets to go back. But Goodell, I think that's already done Paramount and CBS is getting that. Other than that, this was it. This was the, the one chance to basically grab a big sports asset that you and I

• 9:03Bill Simmons?

  have really believed in as something that had a lot of potential, plus with people under 30, which I think is a big part of this UFC audience. What does that look like if you make all of these free? I think the thing that was the hardest to figure out was how many people were pirating the pay-per-views? Yeah. What the actual audience is. I think that was a big issue for Netflix trying to figure out, all right, if we're going to buy out all the numbered pay-per-views, which is what they were looking at, what, what's the actual audience? Because ESPN kept jacking up the prices for those pay-per-views. They were getting to like 79, what was it? 79.99? 99. Yep. So if you're a UFC fan and you wanted the 13 pay-per-views, now you're paying a thousand

• 9:45Bill Simmons?

  dollars a year. So people are now picking and choosing. Maybe they're getting three, maybe they're getting four, or they're pirating them. And I think the, the, the big variable that I have no idea what the answer is, is how many people are actually out there to watch these pay-per-views? You could, you could almost tell me any number. You could tell me it's 500,000 people. You could tell me it's like 2 million people. And what if they put it on CBS? And basically, everybody can just click on CBS at 8 o'clock on a Saturday night and watch UFC for three hours. What is that number? Maybe that's 7 million people. Could they grow the audience? And then on top of it, I think a big thing for Redbird is there's ad stuff with this

• 10:26Bill Simmons?

  that you couldn't really do the way UFC was structured originally. You can actually put real stuff in here now, now that it's free and try to grow it in a way that I think ESPN had a tougher time doing.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we'll never know that number to your point. What we do know is those numbers as far as the plus pay-per-view numbers were dwindling. And that's part of the reason why ESPN probably didn't want to pay a billion dollars for this. They initially, when they first signed the UFC, they said, we want exclusivity. We want the whole thing. And I think it was a great relationship. I think UFC propped up plus, and I think ESPN gave UFC the rub. And if I'm, look, I didn't talk to Dana White about this, but I know Dana White quite well. Dana White wanted ESPN and Netflix. Forget the price tag. He's an optics guy. There is no chance in hell that he said my top choice was Paramount Plus and CBS. Even yesterday on that CNBC interview, they're talking about the Tiffany Network. They're talking about like old school CBS. Dana White's not that kind of guy.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  He wanted to be where the cool kids are hanging out. That's why he always touts social media and the podcasters and all this stuff. And if you even break down the social media numbers from CBS to ESPN, from everything Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, ESPN blows all things CBS Paramount out of the water. And so I'm really curious, when you're talking about those young kids, like your son, like my kids, like my nephews, okay, to them, they know ESPN. They see ESPN. They see it on their feeds. They see it on YouTube. CBS and Paramount, while they have maybe three times the amount of subscribers as far as Paramount Plus versus ESPN Plus, I don't know if those subscribers are UFC fans right now. They may become UFC fans and UFC fans may come over there. But I'm really curious to see how this breaks down in terms of like the footprint. As you know,

• 12:08Speaker 01

  when you're in business with ESPN, they make you a part of the news cycle, right? They talk about you on SportsCenter. You're on the ticker. You're watching the NBA Finals and I see Isma Chachin and Dustin Poirier's faces on the scorer's table. All that is gone now. That doesn't happen. Yeah, you might get an ad read from Jim Nance during the Masters, but it doesn't quite hit the same. And so I think they're going to lose out on some of those things while they're still obviously making a boatload of money. And what a week for them, right? Who would have thought, Bill, in 2026 ESPN would be in business with WWE and not UFC or even Top Rank? It's a crazy reality that we're living in and TKO is obviously making a ton of money involved.

• 12:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, that was the other variable in this. ESPN ends up with, what does it look like? 10 premium WWE pay-per-views. That Jimmy Pataro was on Brian Curtis's Press Box Podcast yesterday and talking about. They have these 10 signature pay-per-views and they're actually going to work with ESPN scheduling to try to, and this is something Nick Khan, I think, has been great at with WWE, trying to figure out where the holes in the schedule are, where it's like, August 2nd, there's just nothing going on in sports. We should put SummerSlam right there and make it two days and try to blow it out. So I think they're going to work together and try to do these signature things, but they're paying, I think it was 350 for the 10, which is money they could have spent on UFC. So they basically chose those 10 premium events of WWE over

• 13:31Bill Simmons?

  the totality of having all of this UFC tonnage, which I guess they just didn't value in the, in the same way anymore. And then from a Netflix standpoint, Netflix could have bought out the number of pay-per-views. And I think, you know, they're already in that raw business. That was like, what, 500, 500 million dollars a year, or whatever the hell that was. They could have the number of pay-per-views with a way bigger audience, right? Netflix has 300 million subscribers.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 13:59Bill Simmons?

  But I don't think they valued it the same way Paramount did. Paramount has seven, I think that I saw they had 7.1 million subscribers, that's it. They're like the, one of the lowest ones. If you're able to add a million subscribers, that, now it's like 14% subscriber growth, which is all they care about. If they can try to get to 8, 9 million subscribers, that's a huge win for them. Netflix didn't really need it, you know? It's nice to have, but ultimately it's not like a game changer for them. For Paramount, it's a game changer. And for ESPN, I don't know, what would you rather have? Would you rather have the 10 signature WWE events or all the UFC tonnage? I think I would rather have the WWE stuff.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  It's, it's a really interesting question because obviously the WWE fans are super loyal and they'll follow them wherever, just ask Peacock. It's 10 shows over 12 nights, right? Because you're getting two WrestleMania nights and two SummerSlam nights, at least for now. Who knows if they'll add more nights to some of those other shows. And you can make a case that the WWE package is a little more reliable because you know that you're getting the top stars almost every single month, right? Those guys are competing every month. As far as the UFC is concerned, like, look, if you're, if you're ESPN, you're saying, the last time we had Conor McGregor on our air was 2021 and here we go. He's not fighting for four years and we're never getting him back because the, the deal is going elsewhere. And so you can have a streak, as you know, where it goes up and down.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  And you know, there aren't top stars, there aren't top draws, there aren't top champions. Jon Jones isn't fighting, Connor isn't fighting, Ronda Rousey disappears. The whole thing we talk about every time. And so it's a little less reliable. And so if you're someone like CBS slash Paramount as, as it has come to light over the last 24 hours. Cause again, the messaging was a little bit funky. Initially, Mark Shapiro said likely all of the numbered shows would be on CBS. And then I was like, wow, that really is, is kind of shocking because don't you want people to go on plus and subscribe to watch?

• 15:50Bill Simmons?

  They backtracked on that one pretty fast.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Then Dana said four shows. And then even by the end of the night to New York Post, he said, hey, we're not totally like ruling out pay-per-view in the future. I think it'll ultimately be those four tent pole events, including the big White House show, July 4th, 2026. But here's where it gets really interesting. As you know, WWE can't ever go back on pay-per-view. Once they made the decision to put all those PLE shows on the network and then eventually Peacock, they decided we're out of that business. UFC is now out of that business. They, in seven years, they won't be able to go back and they were the last ones left. Who, whether they were getting 100K buys, 200, 500, 600, they were the last consistent entity left that was using pay-per-view. And despite it going down, still somewhat successful on pay-per-view. Now that's gone.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  And so I asked them and I asked Paramount, what will ultimately be the difference between UFC 326 and UFC Fight Night Omaha? What's the difference between these shows now? Because before you would tell me, oh, Jon Jones has to fight on this date because that's UFC 327 at T-Mobile. Well, ultimately they're all on the same platform, on the same spot with no extra charge. So what's the difference now? I'm worried, just playing devil's advocate, ultimately, I think it's a great thing for everyone involved, UFC fans, et cetera, not the fighters. But you know my reasoning there. I'm worried that now there's not that pressure to stack the deck for the numbered shows because they are behind the paywall. And that will thus lead them to kind of take their foot off the gas a little bit and, and, and make the product a little more watered down than it already is. That's my worry.

• 17:19Bill Simmons?

  It's interesting because the pressure would now have to come from paramount instead of the pay-per-view prices.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:25Bill Simmons?

  My, my interpretation, reading everything and talking to people yesterday was that they're kind of moving more toward a WWE model where they're going to have like the three or four signature shows, which in a weird way, they were already doing, they just didn't say it. Like we knew this summer, like we knew the big, the big show was the Vegas show and at the end of June, right? That was the one where it's like, oh, this is some of the, some of the big, some of the big guns are here. Then the next, next month isn't as big of a show. And you kind of knew ahead of time which three or four they were stacking up. And they're just, I think it'd be more transparent about it. And maybe just, maybe it's like they have the one Vegas show will be huge. They'll have a New York show that'll be huge.

• 18:08Bill Simmons?

  They'll have some show in South America or Mexico that'll be huge. And then they'll do like a Dubai, whatever. And then that'll be kind of the four corners.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  They did specifically say it's 13 premium live events. So what is going to distinguish?

• 18:21Bill Simmons?

  Both of us know that's impossible. They don't have the fighters for it. They don't, I mean, one of the things that's happened, even you've, you've been a fan way longer than I have. I've been a fan because of my son in the last seven, eight years. You could feel, um, it's really hard to find the hooks for the main events because they just don't have, they, they're, I don't want to say in a rut, but it feels like they're in a transition. And it's a little like wrestling where all of a sudden they could have seven guys who could lead a pay-per-view. But right now they're really leaning on some of the older guys and then hoping that Toporia is going to be like this massive Connor type guy, which I don't think is going to happen unless he fights Canelo, which I thought was another interesting thing this week. Him calling out Canelo, I was like, oh, you want to go on the map, Toporia?

• 19:04Bill Simmons?

  I know it's not going to happen, but if you want to go on the map, that would be a, that would be one way to do it. But who are the, who are the guys who would be the signature main event pay-per-view guys that UFC even has right now other than Aspinall and Toporia?

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Look, they've got four on the books right now. The fifth is in December, but they haven't announced the card for that because it's a little far out. I would argue these four coming up are pretty damn good cards. This Saturday, Drigas 2+ C versus Hamza Shumayev. A lot of people said that to them is their most anticipated fight of the year. Like dating back to when we found out that Hamza was going to fight DDP, everyone has been salivating. Both guys undefeated in the UFC. Shumayev has been on an incredible run. So that's this Saturday. That's pay-per-view, number one. Then you've got October 4th, Magomed Ankaliyev versus Alex Pereira 2. Ankaliyev shocked everyone when he beat Pereira back in March. Also, Murad Doyishvili against Corey Sanhagen. Like if you're a hardcore fan, you love that. Khalil Roundtree is on there against Yuri Pochaska. That's October 4th.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  October 25th is the return of Tom Aspinall, defending his title for the first time officially against Cyril Ganna of France. Love that fight. It's a heavyweight title. You know, that's a big deal. And then you go to the MSG card in November and it's Islam Makhachev moving up to 170 to fight the new champ, Jack Delamadalena. Like those are four gigantic, at least to me, like salivating-worthy big-time fights. And so they still have those guys. Are they million-plus buys like they had in 2016 with Conor and Ronda? No, but they were unicorns. And so I still think that there is at least, you know, I don't know, eight to 10 solid pay-per-view main events a year. I'm just really

• 20:40Speaker 01

  curious how they're going to skin that cat now, moving on to this new era where none of these are going to be behind the paywall. And I could tell you, a lot of these champions are wondering, alright, so what's going to happen now? Because like, they make a ton of money off the buys. Does my base pay go up? By the way, do the performance bonuses go up? You know, now everyone goes crazy over these 50K bonuses for Fight of the Night and all this stuff. Do they at least raise it to 100K, thus changing people's lives? The base pay now is 10 and 10, meaning if you're a UFC debutant, not like a guy that they signed from another organization, like just a guy who's like 6-1 coming from the regional scene, you're getting 10 to show and 10 to win. Do they at least raise it to 20 and 20? Or are they keeping all of this to themselves? Because I think that's a really

• 21:21Speaker 01

  big part of this as well. Like if I'm a UFC fan, I'm happy that I'm getting this all for free, but I also kind of want, or at least, you know, for a minimal cost, I also want to know that the fighters are being taken care of because we've seen what happens to them at the end of their careers, where they're left with very little.

• 21:36Bill Simmons?

  It's a good point. Could this lead? Everybody's always wondered, could there be an MMA, UFC, union, any of that stuff? And everyone says, no way.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  This is the time. If there was ever a time, this is it. They're literally sitting here, watching everyone from the executives go on all these great shows, waving their pom poms that they have just scored the biggest deal ever. Over a million, a billion a year, 7.7. Like this rivals, this is more than what, you know, the Olympics gets and NHL gets and PGA gets. Like they are now in the mainstream, right? Tiffany Network, all that stuff. And you're sitting there as a fighter being like, wait a second. If I just kind of like band together with my brothers here, and maybe we threaten not to show, I'm not suggesting they do that, but like, that's how this starts. What do we get out of this? Look at the mat. Look at all the ads. What do we get from that? Like, it's crazy. But by the way, my prediction is, this will not happen. They've had other opportunities. They've never shown any interest in doing it. They're not going to show interest now.

• 22:30Bill Simmons?

  The problem is the careers are too short. And if you're going to risk out a year, like in basketball, you can lose a year if you don't want to, but you could lose a year. You're still going to have a long career. Football is the one where, even though football has a union, but football couldn't, the average career in football is like three, four years, something like that. So if you lose a year, you're losing 25% of your earning. I would, I would assume that would be the same thing for this.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  The easiest way to do it is, there's like five to six max influential managers in this sport who, you know, work with the top stars. If those guys came together and said, yeah, we're going to convince all our guys to do it. I think it could actually happen relatively quickly. The problem is, those guys, for the most part, are way more concerned with being friends with the UFC brass than doing what's best for their clients. So there's no chance in hell that they would ever do it.

• 23:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And that, well, and then from a paramount standpoint, so, so this would be, this would be the zag against what you're saying about, well, how do you incentivize the fighters? If there's, if they actually elevate some of the paramount stuff and make it a bigger deal on there, and there's advertising, and there's a chance to be seen by more people, then you would think there's some sponsorship possibilities for the specific fighters. And there's outside the octagon stuff that maybe, maybe they could get.

• 23:52Bill Simmons?

  I'm a little nervous about it, even though I think it's great because I do think people were picking and choosing the pay-per-views. I'm a little nervous about how this plays out with the sameness of week to week, kind of not as a, like, I'm a more, way more casual fan than you, kind of not knowing when to come in and out. And now it's like, you know, because I've not, like, some of the ESPN stuff, I just skip unless somebody tells me, I got to watch, there's somebody on this card. And I'm like, all right, I'll watch it. But I don't, I don't know, the 52-week cycle, you know, at least in basketball, there's a start, a middle, and a finish. You know, football goes September and we end in January. WWE, it's like, all right, we have these signature things, and then there's Raw, if you really

• 24:34Bill Simmons?

  want it, week to week. How UFC figures out how to stagger all their content in a way that makes sense for my brain, I think it's going to be really hard. And that's the, that's the part that I don't know if they put a ton of thought in yet.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  You know, I, I think that they cater to different people. There's like the, the super casual who are going to watch maybe one or two, and then there's different levels all the way to the hardcore who are watching every single one and who are saying those shows at the apex on Saturday, like this past Saturday, is a can't miss because X, Y, and Z guys on there. But one thing that I don't think that has been talked about enough in all this, and I can't wait to see what it turns into, and again, you're the perfect person to talk to this about, is, like, you know that when ESPN is out of business with a sports entity, they, they essentially stop covering that entity, right?

• 25:19Bill Simmons?

  It's the NHL, NHL corollary, yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  That, they're the perfect example. They left, they stopped covering them, they're back, they've got ancillary shows, they've got analysts, they've got the coverage on SportsCenter. I'm, I'm fascinated to see how ESPN treats UFC. If history is any indication, it will be the same way. And what they lose out from that, because I really do think it's very valuable to have the Daniel Cormier Friday at the weigh-in spot on First Take before a pay-per-view where he's breaking things down with Stephen A, having all the stuff on their Instagram, having all their stuff on their TikTok. Like, those numbers are insane compared to what CBS slash Paramount can do for them. And to me, that's not being talked about enough, because at this point, unless ESPN decides- To re up their deal with PFL. So they have a deal with PFL, who's the distant number two.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  They've got one year left on that deal that ends in 2026. Unless they decide to re up with them, they're going to be out of the MMA business. And I think part of the reason why the UFC is getting a billion dollars from Paramount, Billion Plus, is because of ESPN. ESPN elevated them. Think about where they were when they left Fox and think about where they are now in terms of like what kids are talking about, watching, how they know the UFC stars. That's a huge, huge deal. And by the way, kudos to the UFC. They have always had the great benefit of timing. When they left Spike and went to Fox, Fox needed them to prop up FS1, right? When they left Fox and went ESPN, ESPN needed them to prop up ESPN Plus. They leave ESPN to go to Paramount. Ellison needs them to prop up the new Paramount Plus.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  They have been able to really benefit from great timing and that's not a knock on them, but they've just been able to be used as this thing to prop up and history has shown that they are able to prop those things up. FS1 dies on the vine, in my opinion, without UFC and Plus doesn't really get off the ground without UFC. So I think that they'll have a similar success, but now it's totally different, right? Because there's no more pay per view. And so those, that, that whole breakdown has completely changed.

• 27:12Bill Simmons?

  I think that's a really good point, but especially about TKO the last couple of years because Netflix and the Raw deal, they are hating Netflix right as Netflix is like, we really want to see what live can do for us. We need something. Oh, here's Raw. Let's grab this. They get the Paramount. Paramount is getting bought by Ellison and Redbird and they're like, we got to get into sports. We got to boost subscribers. Oh, here's this. This will be the last sports thing available. We'll grab this. Same thing for ESPN Plus. And then, and then this WWE deal that they just did, which honestly makes more sense for whatever this flagship thing is going to be, where you want basically these little signature events, tent pole events that you can kind of get behind.

• 27:58Bill Simmons?

  So the thing you just said about ESPN, it's interesting because I think 20 years ago was probably a bigger deal from a TV standpoint because ESPN was just more in people's lives than it is now. I don't think SportsCenter matters, you know, even 10% like it did. I think First Take matters a little. But the social stuff and their, and their foothold in all these different social platforms and how big their app is and TikTok and Instagram. And if ESPN is just like, we're just. We're just out. We're not gonna, we're not gonna talk about this stuff the same way. That is like a massive footprint that they just lose.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  I actually, I actually have some of these numbers for my show today. Thank you to my producers for this. Take a look at this, Bill. All right. This is kind of crazy. As far as Tik, excuse me, as far as Twitter is concerned, ESPN has 58.8 million, 45 million on their SportsCenter account and 1.6 million on their ESPN MMA account. As far as CBS, Paramount Plus and CBS Sports, 1.1 million, 416,000, 1.4 million on CBS Sports. Like just that alone. Just, just listen to Instagram. 28.2 billion for ESPN. CBS has 965,000. SportsCenter has 38.8 million followers. Paramount Plus has 1.5 million. ESPN MMA has 4.6 million followers.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  ESPN, excuse me, CBS Sports has 1.9. In total, if you take TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, ESPN has 308, 308 million followers slash subs. CBS Paramount and CBS Sports has 32 million followers slash subs. That's a huge, huge difference. Now Paramount Plus definitely has more subs. 77.7 subscribers, million subscribers. ESPN Plus has 24.9 subscribers at the end of Q1 this year. But again, I think the vast majority of those, we don't know the breakdown, but I would, I would, I would, I would venture to guess that right now, a lot of those subs on ESPN Plus

• 30:03Speaker 01

  were built off of UFC fans. I would venture to guess a lot of those 70-plus million subs on Paramount Plus aren't UFC fans. It's going to be very interesting to see in two, three, four years, how many of those go from plus ESPN Plus to Paramount Plus.

• 30:17Bill Simmons?

  And that's the thing. We don't know whether that's. 475,000 people or 3 million people.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:24Bill Simmons?

  I have no, we have no idea what the number is for Paramount. All right. So everything we're laying out, it's like, wow, why would they do this? It seems like they overpaid. I was trying to think about like, when you have a streamer and you're not Netflix, or you're not YouTube, or you're not ESPN, like, what's your identity, right? So you, like, you and I are buying Paramount. We're like, what the fuck, what the fuck are we buying? We're getting, we get South Park.

• 30:48Bill Simmons?

  We have the CBS, we have cement of L.

• 30:52Bill Simmons?

  We got Taylor Sheridan, we have all of his shows.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  What else?

• 30:57Bill Simmons?

  You get Showtime, you get MTV, all that stuff. You get like the carcass of MTV, you get some Comedy Central. But really, like, you're thinking like, a year from now, who are my faces? Right? So now you have UFC and you have Dana White and the, the broadcast crew is like now a face of Paramount. Taylor Sheridan is a face of Paramount. Football is a face of Paramount. The South Park guys, they're, you know, they're, they're like the ultimate disruptors in the comedy content space. And, and you kind of see you're moving toward, this is like a male, kind of, like, those are things that, there's like a Venn diagram where there's a lot of stuff colliding in that Venn diagram. And I think that's maybe what Paramount might be trying to look at here is we can have sports

• 31:42Bill Simmons?

  and then this content and just kind of go after dudes. And then you get from CBS, you get people like my dad, who's, could it be more excited about Boston Blue with Donnie Wahlberg? Filming right now, getting ready for September launch. But you get like older men with CBS and then you get the younger men with some of this other stuff. And it's like, all right, at least now we have something. Unlike where like, I look at Peacock now and I'm like, what the hell is Peacock?

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:05Bill Simmons?

  NBC stuff and that's it? Yeah.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Premier League soccer, you get that. So I'll be keeping my Peacock and probably my ESPN plus as well. But, but, but that's, yeah, that, that's pretty much it. And by the way, how about the fact? They have done, TKO that is, has done an incredible job of splitting this pie up in as many way possible. Like, look at how they did WWE here in America. Raw on Netflix, SmackDown on USA, NXT on CW, the PLEs to ESPN, that's four different entities right there. And there's even still some talk about their library, because the library didn't go to, you know, the vault, if you will, didn't go to ESPN. So could they sell that off to someone else? Well, as far as UFC is concerned, okay, now we know that all this

• 32:49Speaker 01

  is going to Paramount. Paramount doesn't own it globally. They have, you know, these rights in different countries around the world. For example, in the UK and Ireland, they're on TNT Sports. But they did carve out something that now Paramount will get a 30-day exclusivity period when the deals are up around the world to be able to negotiate exclusively with the TKO brass in order to try to gobble these up all over the world. But we go one step further. They still have something called Contender Series, which actually kicks off tonight on ESPN+, which is basically the UFC signs these regional guys, these up-and-coming guys, the likes of Sean O'Malley started there. And then if they win, Dana White sits there, like on his throne, old-school Roman Coliseum days, and says, "All right, we're

• 33:32Speaker 01

  giving you a contract, we're not giving you a contract." That wasn't a part of this deal. So they could sell that off to someone else. The Ultimate Fighter is still kicking, that wasn't a part of this deal. They could sell that off to someone else as well. And so they also have Zuffa Boxing, which is about to launch on September 13th with Canelo Crawford on Netflix. That's a one-off. And Dana White said yesterday that that deal is done as well. They just haven't announced the broadcast partner. So the amount of broadcast entities that this group is in bed with, in business with, with, you know, Ari Emanuel and Mark Shapiro, Nick Khan, Dana White, like, some of the most powerful people in all of sports, media, and entertainment, it's really staggering to watch how they've essentially, like, owned all this real estate in a very short amount of time.

• 34:14Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by Workday.

• 34:58Bill Simmons?

  Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday. Yeah, so I think where it heads is the big boxing pay-per-views that they're going to do go to Netflix for the most part. The big WWE pay-per-views go to ESPN. All the big UFC stuff goes to Paramount and then the biggest stuff goes to CBS. So now I'm in four platforms.

• 35:41Bill Simmons?

  I guess the question for me, like we don't know the exact numbers. Let's say, let's say Netflix was, let's say Netflix wanted 400 million a year for the 13 numbered pay-per-views. And let's say ESPN was ready to offer 200 a year for everything else. I have no idea if those are the right numbers, but let's say that's about 600 a year. So we'll round it up. I'll say they could get 650 a year from Netflix and then you have your pay-per-views with 300 million subscribers and they buy it out. And then the rest is on ESPN. Or you go to Paramount. I get an extra 400 million a year over seven years. So I'm getting an extra $2 billion, but way less certainty about my audience.

• 36:25Bill Simmons?

  What would you have done if you were the UFC conciliary?

• 36:29Speaker 01

  I would have taken this deal. This is a tremendous number.

• 36:32Bill Simmons?

  See, I would have too. Yeah.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:33Bill Simmons?

  You're taking the money.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  1.1 billion a year.

• 36:35Bill Simmons?

  It's too much money. You're taking it.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  And by the way, so much less pressure. Now, all the pressure is on Paramount and CBS to sell these shows. Like, we'll just put together the cards and, you know, Paramount and CBS are banking on the three letters. And, and there was once a time where all the pressure was on the UFC where they're like, yo, man, we need Brock Lesnar at UFC 200 because we need to sell over a million pay-per-views. We need to figure out how to get Connor to come back to fight so-and-so, Khabib Nurmagomedov, let's say, because we need that 2 million pay-per-view. They don't need nothing anymore. And so when they're at an impasse with some superstar between... Eventually, they'll be at an impasse with, say, Ilya Teporia. And Ilya is like, I ain't fighting unless you give me 20 million. They'll say, cool, enjoy.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  It doesn't, it doesn't change our lives. It does not change our lives in one way, shape, or form if you fight or not, because all of it is bought and paid for. You know what I mean? And so it's not even, by the way, it's not even bought and paid for to where like, hey, our partner needs these pay-per-view buys anymore. No, our partner is not even putting these numbered shows behind a pay-per-view wall anymore. And so for CBS and for David Ellison and for Paramount and for Skydance and for Redbird and all these people, they're like, all right, we just want those three letters. We want it on our, on our streaming platform and we're going to hope and pray that those three letters mean a lot to a lot of people and that they're going to deliver for us. But if I'm the UFC brass, if I'm TKO, this is the greatest deal in the world. It's over a billion. You're now playing with the big dogs and there's zero pressure on you. Of course, they would listen to this and be like, what are you talking about?

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Of course, there's pressure. We want to put on the best product. I get that. But it's not the same type of pressure as 2010 when you're out there freaking trying to cut deals with everyone because you are benefiting from the pay-per-view.

• 38:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's...

• 38:16Bill Simmons?

  It's, I get it from everybody's side. But it does feel like something is going to be completely different now, and I can't put my finger on what.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:25Bill Simmons?

  I think what you said about the pressure about, oh shit, we have this thing in Vegas on June and our top guy just fell out. We have to make sure we have like.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  You don't.

• 38:35Bill Simmons?

  Are they going to care in the same way is the question.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  No, I mean, you'll care from a gate standpoint, but the pay-per-view is completely different, and that's a huge number. I think right here now, and this could change between now and let's say next year, I think the ones who this affects the most are the kids in good ways and bad ways. And when I say kids, I mean like your son's age because I think, great, they won't have to pirate. And by the way, a lot of these kids, as you know, aren't even paying for the $12.99. They will still pirate because they're just lazy and they expect to get everything for free.

• 39:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  But it won't hit the pockets as much.

• 39:06Bill Simmons?

  The stealing, stealing it for the pirating is part of the art.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 39:10Bill Simmons?

  They love that they saved.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  You're a pirate.

• 39:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah, they like it.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  But it's that, I'm telling you, it's that digital footprint, man. I do not, do not discount social media. CBS Paramount basically has no presence on social media. CBS Sports HQ compared to ESPN or whatever is nothing. And, and I really think like I would, I would get it all the time from my nephews. They would send me stuff. They would send me clips like that's not going to exist anymore. And so I'm really curious to see how that affects the just sort of general popularity. Because as you know, five years ago during the pandemic, no one benefited more than the UFC because they came back so soon.

• 39:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  And they were the only game in town. Yes, I was on the, I was in the A block of SportsCenter, 6pm SportsCenter in the middle of spring when it would be like NBA playoff time, talking about like random fights that no one cared about because there was literally nothing else to talk about. And obviously that was an extreme, but all that is going away. And so I'm, I'm really curious what that translates into. And my, my prediction is that it will, that demographic will, will kind of find something else to tune into. It's going to be fascinating.

• 40:17Bill Simmons?

  One other thing about Paramount that I wish I had mentioned earlier was the, the whole concept of buying a subscriber base and how these big companies think about, like you buy this UFC audience and even though they overpaid for it, they're still getting this audience and maybe they didn't overpay. But now they have, I think I said before, it was like 7.1 million subscribers. Maybe that gets to eight now, maybe that gets to eight and a half. But it's people that aren't canceling Paramount once they get it because they love UFC, right? Once they're in. They're just in at that point and you can just count on them and there's no churn rate for it and that and what all of these people care about the most is churn rate like Spotify. One of the reasons the stock is 700 plus dollars is because once you get Spotify,

• 41:00Bill Simmons?

  you, you, you kind of don't cancel it. You don't get rid of it, right? You have all your playlists on there. You're used to it and it's just the price and you know, nobody really gets rid of Spotify once they have it. I think UFC fans, whoever has the UFC content, once they're in on it and once you know there's a nut, there's enough content week to week, month to month, you're probably just, it's, you're probably just doing the automatic recharge. I, you know, HBO would have that issue where they would have like White Lotus is coming and people get HBO and then cancel it right after White Lotus ends. I don't think the UFC, I think that'd be way harder to do if you can sprinkle the content correctly. You know what I mean?

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Yes, I would say the number one most loyal are the WWE fans. Like they are the most, they will follow you wherever and, and WWE does a great job with all the other stuff, the documentaries, the behind the scenes. UFC Hasn't really done that as well. Like WWE turned WrestleMania nine, one of the least liked WrestleMania's of all time into this great behind the scenes documentary that they put out back in April and I was gobbling it up. I loved everything about it. Look at this WWE unreal that everyone was talking about on Netflix. So like WWE fans will eat it all up and I would say the next tier are the UFC fans who are a little bit more fickle and who will come and go sort of like boxing fans, but I would say a little bit more loyal to the brand than boxing fans are loyal to a specific brand.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Um, and they will, they will follow, they will do their thing. Um, it's just, it's just a brand new world and you can never go back to pay-per-view now. You can, after you tell them.

• 42:33Bill Simmons?

  No, pay-per-views, it's, it's a wrap.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Dzone, Dzone did this. Do you remember when Dzone came out with the pay-per-view is dead thing and now they went, and then they went back to pay-per-view and now they're telling you again that pay-per-view is dead? Like you can't do that to the public. Once you tell them once that, hey, you're, you're, hey, you're paying too much. We wanted to help you because you're paying a thousand dollars a year. In seven years, you can never go back to that. And so what does this sport look like in 10, 15 years as a result of the decision announced yesterday? Can't wait to see.

• 42:59Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then the last piece that we didn't talk about. So they had the unicorn of Connor. They had the unicorn of Rousey for two years and then going back in the 2000s or a couple other people, but they really haven't had the unicorn, somebody who can pull everybody in for a while. They've had some people that seem like maybe the and it just really hasn't happened in the 2020s. What happens if they get their version of Caitlin Clark or the or the 2000 late 20s version of Connor or whoever and get somebody who then becomes a mainstream mega star for like two, three years. And now that has to be on Paramount and CBS. Like we don't have that. And by the way, we don't know if that's gonna, that might not happen. Like it hasn't happened in golf since Tiger. Tiger hasn't had anybody

• 43:44Bill Simmons?

  like that for basically 15 years. So maybe it doesn't happen, but if it does happen, it's happening on Paramount.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  That that person will come. That is my one prediction that I know for sure. I don't know who it could be Ilya, it could be Tom, it could be someone we've never heard of. It could be someone who's in the seventh grade right now, but those people will always be there. It could be Brock Lesnar's daughter for all we know. Like those people will always be there.

• 44:09Bill Simmons?

  The shot putter.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Who knows? They will always be there. They will always come. They will always be superstars. And I don't think the UFC is is like who saw Drakis du Placé becoming this champ that people love? Hamza could win on Saturday and and turn into like a tour de force that doesn't lose for the next 10 years. Who the hell knows?

• 44:29Bill Simmons?

  Who am I betting on in that fight, by the way?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  You know what? The, I think the, like, if we would have talked six, seven months ago, everyone would have been like, oh, yeah, Hamza, like, he's just, he's unstoppable, right? He's a locomotive. I think the cool pick now is Drakis. I think like the, the smart mark pick is Drakis, because everyone says if Drakis takes him into the, the championship rounds, so to speak, three, four, five, he's got this in the bag. In other words, if you looked into a crystal ball and that crystal ball told you this fight ends in one or two, oh, yeah, Hamza won. If you look into a crystal ball and it says it went to the championship rounds or the distance, it's Drakis. I, I'm leaning towards Drakis. I just think the guy is impossible to figure out, but also like, he could lose in 60 seconds and everyone would be like, of course, he's gonna lose because Hamza is so crazy. I think the smart

• 45:16Speaker 01

  mark.

• 45:17Bill Simmons?

  Hamza's minus 260, which I thought was higher than I thought.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Hmm. I actually would have, I wouldn't have been surprised if you would have said like 325 or something like that. What's Drakis?

• 45:27Bill Simmons?

  Plus 196 on Fanduel?

• 45:30Speaker 01

  That feels, I, I, I like that one. That feels like the pick, in my opinion. That's the flyer.

• 45:37Bill Simmons?

  Be a good one. All right. This is all great. How are you feeling about the Bills? I put Josh Allen at the top of my QB pyramid. I don't know if you had any thoughts?

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Uh, I appreciate that. I don't know if you're trying to do like some sort of like reverse psychology.

• 45:48Bill Simmons?

  I wasn't. I don't do that stuff. I thought he was the best guy last year. I mean, he won the MVP. It wasn't like it was a hot take and I just didn't think Mahomes had a great year. But the Chiefs did.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  By the way, there were some people who said Lamar deserved it. I don't agree with those people, but um, this, I feel something in the air. I have to say, I'm reluctantly watching Hard Knocks. I wasn't a fan when I heard of the announcement because I just, I don't want the distraction. I don't want to play up to the cameras, but it's fun seeing my team shown in this light because you know, that's an institution. Um, I'm a little worried about the James Cook stuff, although just today Sean McDermott, Coach McDermott said he's going to be practicing. I pray to God they figure that out. And if they do, who's stopping us? Who's stopping us? Certainly no one in the AFC East. You would agree with that, right?

• 46:32Bill Simmons?

  My team, my team's going to be a little friskier this year. I'm just telling you. We've got defense.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  What's frisky? What are we talking about? Seven and 10?

• 46:39Bill Simmons?

  Good defense. Our team's pretty good. We're well coached.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  What are we talking about? Six and 11?

• 46:42Bill Simmons?

  How about 10 and 7?

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Hmm, man.

• 46:45Bill Simmons?

  People discounted the Washington commanders last year.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Sure. It was a nice little story.

• 46:48Bill Simmons?

  New coach, new QB.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  This is it. This is our year. It has to be our, if not now, when? I'm seeing him on all these commercials, Snickers, Pepsi. He's the face of the NFL for goodness sakes. Everyone has Chiefs fatigue. There's no way they're going to repeat like in terms of making it back to the Super Bowl again. It feels like our year. I'm worried. By the way, here's my prediction. I'm worried about week one. I think the, the Ravens will come in with like freaking revenge on their minds. And then I think we might run the table after week one. Like I, I could see an 0-1, sky is falling. Press the panic button on the lower thing on first take, and then I see them winning 16 in a row. I wouldn't be surprised. Honestly.

• 47:25Bill Simmons?

  Have you recovered from the Knicks yet?

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Feel fantastic about the Knicks. I have my Gershon Yabuselli jersey already. I love that.

• 47:32Bill Simmons?

  That was a great signing. Yeah, that was great.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Love that signing. I'm obsessed with that guy. Was obsessed with him when he killed Canada in the Olympics and then what he did to USA. Loved the Jordan Clarkson signing as well. Loved that we didn't tinker too much with everything else. Um. Cautiously optimistic about Mikal Bridges. I almost feel like they had to do that deal because they gave up so much for him. I think he will thrive under Brown. I'm all in on Brown. I feel horrible for Tibbs. I've said this already, but again, just like I was talking about the East, as far as the AFC is concerned, like who's going to stop us in the Eastern Conference? Cleveland, right? That's the one that everyone thinks. Other than Cleveland, who are we worried about? Atlanta? That's the cool sexy pick? Come on. What are we talking about? Philly? No chance. Boston sucks. I'm sorry.

• 48:14Bill Simmons?

  Milwaukee would be the one that's kind of, just because they have the best player in the conference. I think you have to mention them.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Best player. They added Turner. They lost Lillard. I'm not too worried about them. They, they, you know, they don't really show up. It's Cleveland had a fantastic regular season and I wouldn't be surprised if they're one and we're two. We meet them in the Eastern Conference Final. We punch our ticket. Revenge against iHeart and the Thunder and around like June 17th or so, Canyon of Heroes Parade. It's going to be a great 2026.

• 48:41Bill Simmons?

  On Saturday, though, NBA TV was showing game one of the Indy Knicks series.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 48:46Bill Simmons?

  I didn't mean to do this to you, but it was the fourth quarter and there were six minutes left and I was like, I haven't watched this since it happened. I gotta watch this.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  I will never get over that.

• 48:56Bill Simmons?

  It's unbelievable.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  It's unbelievable.

• 48:58Bill Simmons?

  Like I actually, it was three times more unbelievable than I, than I remembered. Like Nisbet just starts making these crazy shots and then, uh, I just can't believe the Pacers came back in that game.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  You look at the score with like, I think 246 or something like that.

• 49:13Bill Simmons?

  You had the game for 46 minutes. You're up eight with like 40 seconds left. Um, but it was, I, I, I had forgotten that that was probably the craziest loss. I mean, it really was, you don't want to say a fluke because Indy made every shot, but if I'm a Knicks fan, I'm looking at that. I'm like, we probably should have made the finals last year. Why not? Why can't we just get back?

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Absolutely. And I think we beat the Thunder. Uh, if I'm sort of being honest with you, but man, I can't wait. I keep seeing all this NBA and NBC stuff, like the, the promos and all that. I think next year's NBA is going to be great. It sucks that these stars are out. I don't wish that upon anyone, but, uh, the nostalgia and you know what I'm so excited about? Like the new voices, the mellows of the world. Like I'm just, I'm excited for the new coverage, right?

• 49:57Bill Simmons?

  Positive media coverage.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  I'm just, yes.

• 49:59Bill Simmons?

  Elevation.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Some new voices and I'm fascinated to see what happens with the inside the NBA guys as well with ESPN because I think that might be a fascinating marriage to, uh, to watch from afar too. But yes, I feel good about the Knicks. I think Brown will be a new voice. I think, I think there'll be change. I think everyone had their little fun this summer about all the-

• 50:16Bill Simmons?

  Optimistic Ariel, can't believe this.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  By the way, not since, dare I say, 1994 have my two teams had a better chance to win a, a championship. Not since the, the Bills were going to their fourth straight and the Knicks were playing the Rockets in the, uh, the NBA finals. And, and, and I, and I, and I have to mention, since this is on a very, very special date, uh, August 12th, 1994. I probably peaked as, as a sports fan because you'll recall that date lives in infamy. That was the day that the players went on strike and, uh, the first place Montreal Expos. Six games ahead of the Atlanta Braves. I will never forget August 12th. And so every time I see that today's August 12th, I remember this. So like I, I peaked as a sports fan in 94. I'm hoping that I just get one before I die.

• 51:00Bill Simmons?

  Well, I'm about to talk to Cousin Sal and Brian Curtis about the Cowboys mega documentary that's coming out on Netflix. I would advise you to skip it.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  No chance, no chance.

• 51:10Bill Simmons?

  I'm not watching.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Second of that.

• 51:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I would, I would honestly, as your friend, I would skip.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Okay. I wasn't planning on it, by the way, if I'm being a hundred percent honest, but I'm happy.

• 51:18Bill Simmons?

  There's a specific episode, just, just don't watch it.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  All about that, all about that.

• 51:23Bill Simmons?

  Just, just stay away.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  The helmet and all that?

• 51:26Bill Simmons?

  No, it's just, just stay away. It's going to bring up some dark, some dark demons.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Is, is Leon Led and Don Beebe in there?

• 51:33Bill Simmons?

  That they are not, but there's some other stuff in there that, uh, I'd, you know, this stuff was all 30 years ago. There was stuff I forgot about. Anyway, Ariel, great to see you. You can listen to him and watch him on the Uncrowned Podcast, which is a fan. You get like four fighters a day, by the way.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're working hard here. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Always a pleasure. Thank you so much.

• 51:55Bill Simmons?

  All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching, just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 52:39Bill Simmons?

  All right, recording this on a Tuesday morning as well. Brian Curtis is here from The Ringer. Cousin Sal, even though Dee from What's Happening died today, had decided to power through it. And some funniest female of the 70s for you? Or was there somebody else?

• 52:53Speaker 02

  I think so. I, you know, I put Bonnie Franklin from One Day at a Time up there. No, no, of course, of course it was Dee. Ah, she was terrific. She'd cut anybody down.

• 53:02Bill Simmons?

  All right. Well, thanks for gutting through today and talking Cowboys. So Netflix has this giant Cowboys documentary coming out that when we saw the news, I don't know how many years ago, and it was Netflix paying like 50 million bucks. Jerry Jones, the way some of these team documentaries work, how the Patriots thing played out with Bob Kraft, just putting himself over all of it, making. And you're just like, wow, this Cowboys thing's going to be a train wreck. Jerry Jones is going to be all over this thing. It's not going to be editorially responsible at all. This is just going to suck. And then I got an advanced copy of the first seven episodes and it was like Last Dance level riveting. So many things I forgot.

• 53:44Bill Simmons?

  So I implored you guys to watch advanced copies. Who, who wants to start? Cause there's so much to go here. Sal, I told you, like, clear your schedule. You have to watch this. Did it exceed your expectations?

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think, well, I mean, this is no great feat, but I think in 18 hours, I knocked the whole seven hours out, whatever. So, and.

• 54:08Bill Simmons?

  You couldn't stay away.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  I had my oldest son watching with me and he went out one night. I was like, no, no, no, stay home. I'll pay you to stay home. We need to finish these. But to me, this was like. I fucking loved every minute. It was like a vial of crack with a, like a sprinkling of Parmesan cheese and smothered with Michelle Pfeiffer from Grease 2, all rolled up.

• 54:27Bill Simmons?

  Wow, you felt like you were at the White House. I think that was at the White House.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  I was at the White House. White House, by the way, not very impressive. It was basically like a suite at the Quality Inn behind the training facility. I thought it was gonna be like this big mansion, but anyway, I'm sure we'll get to that. But yeah, I fricking loved it. And I got to, I, I mean, we'll let Curtis join in here, but I took a different perspective of how I looked at some of these guys.

• 54:50Bill Simmons?

  Curtis, did, I mean, you've read every book. You're a lifelong Cowboys fan. You thought you knew everything and then you hear this is coming out. What was your reaction watching it versus what you thought was gonna happen?

• 55:02Speaker 03

  Well, I did read every word. I mean, every word that Ed Werder wrote, you know, that was me because these events take place between my first year of middle school and my last year of high school. So I was at like my maximum sports fandom. And Bill, I don't know if you've ever mentioned the 86 Celtics on this podcast. I think I heard it once or twice.

• 55:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 55:19Speaker 03

  The 92 Cowboys are my 86 Celtics. I'm very protective of them. I mean, I feel like for the rest of my life, I have to tell people how great they were. And then when they bring me stories, I'm like, I knew that. I read that. Dude, I enjoyed this so much, reliving every moment of this. I mean, I was, I was ready, as you say, for the Jones family, I mean Biden family, I mean Jones family rehabilitation project.

• 55:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 55:43Speaker 03

  And this was a riveting, fun, it was like a Western directed by Baz Luhrmann. I mean, it was, it was just a really, really fun series.

• 55:53Bill Simmons?

  And it's not coming out for a few days, but we, this seemed like the perfect time just to talk about that whole era. I think what struck me, because it's been, you know, 30, 35 years for a lot of this stuff is just how much I forgot. I watched all of these games. And as the years pass, when it's on a Boston team, where I can remember the beats of a Boston team, but when it's other teams and when it's 90s NFL, the stuff blends together. So like, as you guys know, I am the, the king of the outside Dallas. I would rather have Emmett Smith than Barry Sanders. That's been, I've been on that hill forever. And one of my big cases was the separated shoulder game. And over the years, I thought that that happened in the NFC title game or whatever,

• 56:36Bill Simmons?

  and I forgot the context of the Giants. So it was like, it was a lot of like just jogging my memory from what actually happened, but then reinforcing things, you know, that I felt. And the reality is football just felt like it mattered more in the early 90s. And I don't really know why. I know we were younger. I know it's easier to say stuff like that. But there was, it wasn't the 24 seven like we have now where everybody has social media. Everybody's got a podcast. There's coverage for, there's video everywhere. Back then, it was just like you, you watched the Sunday game. We had Madden and Summerall and you had these big epic teams that felt like these superpowers with the Giants and the Cowboys and the Niners. Um, whom I leave it out Giants, Cowboys, Niners.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  I mean, the Bills.

• 57:21Bill Simmons?

  And the Redskins.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:22Bill Simmons?

  Those were, yeah, from the NFC. And it was just, three of them were always good. They would always battle. It would get to December, January. It felt like the games were the most important things ever. And Dallas was just great. Like they, like great to the point that we always used to say, it felt almost unfair. That it was like, well, we gotta fix this. They gotta do something with those salary cap. But you shouldn't be able to have this many good players. Um, so that was, it made me really nostalgic. And I don't know, Sal, are we just old?

• 57:51Speaker 02

  I think what's going on now is unfair, how we haven't won in 30 years and don't even really come close. I think that part is unfair. But I think you're right. And it's hard to explain to people to say that, oh, football was bigger back then because it can't possibly be bigger than it is right now for all the reasons you laid out, right? The 24 seven coverage, the Twitter and everything, the all different streams. But like you said, like Aikman, Young, Favre, Kelly, Sims.

• 58:15Bill Simmons?

  Montana.

• 58:16Speaker 02

  Every year, Montana, like trading off, like it just felt huge by every metric. I don't know how to explain it, but yeah, that was, that was the time to be around. I'm sorry. I'm sorry you missed it Cowboys fans. I really, I'm sorry. Hopefully this helps.

• 58:31Bill Simmons?

  I mean, you would think, cause I'm a Pats fan and we won six Super Bowls in the 2000s and the 2010s. I'd be like, that was the best era. And it just wasn't. It felt like the 90s, the sport was also way more violent, which I think that's one of the great things about this doc. She's like, oh my God, like, I just can't believe they had this Aikman concussion montage at one point. And he has, what is it? Eight concussions and or six concussions in 14 months or some or nine or like?

• 59:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was like five in 12 months and nine undocumented.

• 59:03Bill Simmons?

  Just kidding. And the guys in their early 90s, but um, you know, this was why Curtis, this is, I think when football went up a notch, I was there for Sal and I were there for the 70s, 80s, 90s, but it felt like 90s was when everything got cemented. Even when you look back in the old, like the the retro news Twitter account will have like the ratings for 1977.

• 59:25Speaker 03

  Right.

• 59:26Bill Simmons?

  And Monday Night Football is like 20th. You know, and you think like, wow, football, Monday Night Football is only 20th. But by the time we got to the mid 90s, it felt like football was the biggest thing, right?

• 59:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, the media B roll from this doc, if you lived in the 90s, I mean, how many Leslie Visser sideline reports are in this thing?

• 59:44Bill Simmons?

  Young Pam Oliver, all of it. Yeah.

• 59:46Speaker 03

  Madden and Summerall, you know, and again, that's what made it feel so special. I think that's what you're talking about a little bit, too. That's all mixed in here because that Giants game you're talking about where Emmett has a separated shoulder. John Madden, in my memory, came down from the booth and went to the Cowboys locker room and said, that's the bravest thing I've ever seen. And that was like this laying on hands moment. It's like, oh, my God, John Madden said that to Emmitt Smith after a game? I mean, who in the world would have the ability to say something like that now? And it would be meaningful.

• 1:00:14Bill Simmons?

  Right. Well, and then there was these other beats in there that because we hadn't followed sports for long enough. Like Emmett's contract held out, which I totally forgot. It felt like one of the biggest stories of all time as it was happening. Like, wow, he's gonna, he's gonna sit out the season? Like, they're not gonna pay him? And then that the new guy comes in and he's terrible. But it's tough now, like in 2025, guys hold out and you're like, all right, we we know how this is gonna go. He's gonna, it's like what you're doing with Michael Parsons right now. It's like, all right, we're gonna do this little dance. And then we're gonna get to August 29th and Micah Parsons will be a Cowboy. When Emmett Smith was holding out, I was like, is he ever gonna play again? What's gonna happen here? They're gonna throw this away?

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  Exactly. I wonder if Jerry reliving this reinforces what he's doing with Micah Parsons, right? So Emmett missed two games that year and they won the Super Bowl and he won the rushing title, which is crazy. So this is why he doesn't freak out about holdouts because he knows he's gonna release the funds, like you said, in late August or early September. Maybe he does even miss two games Parsons. By the way, we'll lose the Eagles anyway. So that's one game that didn't matter, but he gets to play a villain for the whole month. Right? I mean, it must've killed him to know that Nico Harrison was the most hated Dallas executive for a minute. I mean, he's gotta get his title back, but he loves it. Even at the red carpet thing last night, he said, this controversy like this is good for the team. Like what? Nobody thinks that, but okay, good. I guess you have a plan here.

• 1:01:40Bill Simmons?

  Well, one of the things Curtis with this doc with the, the, just the storytelling, it's just perfect IP. I think the two best IP for sports documentaries were The Last Dance and this because you have Jones and Johnson and that falling apart. You have the Aikman, Emmett, Irvin, like that trio, and all of them have different kind of faults, right? Aikman, she's getting the shit kicked out of him. Emmett's like the constant overachiever who's underpaid and then Irvin's just a maniac. You have that piece, but then you have Jerry and, and Jimmy falling apart in a way that now I, I feel like we, we'd have more day to day, we would have known more about it.

• 1:02:25Bill Simmons?

  There would have been like little, little kernels coming out all the time, which is the national media didn't work that way back then. And when Jimmy left, it was like, he's, he's not gonna coach the Cowboys. It was like the most stunning thing ever. I don't feel like people would ever be stunned by that in the same way, right?

• 1:02:42Speaker 03

  I agree to a point, though.

• 1:02:44Bill Simmons?

  Well, you were a Dallas fan, so you, you were sniffing it out in Dallas.

• 1:02:47Speaker 03

  What's funny is the doc reminded me that a lot of this stuff was caught out on the table. You know, before that second Super Bowl, Bob Costas did an interview with Jerry and Jimmy together. And can you imagine the Kraft Belichick version of that interview?

• 1:02:59Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:03:00Speaker 03

  And the interview's point was basically like, you guys like each other?

• 1:03:05Speaker 02

  And if you listen to the answers Jimmy gave in the press conferences before the Super Bowl about his relationship with Jerry, I'm like, I can't believe this was happening like days before a game. Like that was wild.

• 1:03:16Bill Simmons?

  I guess we had no mechanism back then to really talk about something that happened. Like, cause the MJ gambling stuff was all happening at the same time, too. And when you look back at some of that stuff now, it seems bonkers. Like they're asking him on the NBC pregame show, do you have a gambling problem? But we had no, we had no internet back then. We had no way to be like, hey, did you see that? What'd you think? Wow, I thought that was crazy, too. And the Jimmy Jerry, it felt like something was wrong, but you always just felt like stuff was gonna work out in sports. Like, oh, they'll get back together. The only time I can remember that not being was the Billy Martin, George Steinbrenner stuff.

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:51Bill Simmons?

  In the seventies and eighties where it was like, whoa, these guys, oh, they fired him. You know? But it's just like, how is Jimmy gonna walk away from that job, Sal? He had built like the super team of all time.

• 1:04:01Speaker 02

  I know. And they dangled the Jaguars in front of him. I remember that being like, what the fuck, the freaking Jaguars? The thing's that bad that he wants to go to Jaguars? It's like, they haven't snapped a ball yet, but I, yeah, but to the point of like, we weren't finding things out. Like Jerry puts it all out there, so you don't really have to dig. Like they're caught at a Mexican restaurant before he's even hired Jimmy Johnson, right? He knew he was gonna get busted there. At the press conference, when he buys the team, he looks at Tex Ram and says, I'm gunning for your job. And Tex Ram looks like the saddest man on earth, cause he knows he's not fucking around. You know, it's like, so Jerry put, and he still to this day does interviews at three times a week. So you don't really, you didn't really even need Twitter back then for a lot of this stuff. You knew what was going on.

• 1:04:44Bill Simmons?

  Well, the Landry thing, so if we followed sports in the 1980s like we do now, the Landry thing, for somebody like me living on the East Coast, where he was like, Tom Landry, he'll never get fired. The guy's one of the great coaches of all time. But meanwhile, he'd really been declining for years and years, and the team had been declining, and he's just got old. But it still seemed inconceivable he was gonna get fired. And when Jones comes in, he buys the team. And he fires Tom Landry. What do you remember from that Curtis when it happened?

• 1:05:13Speaker 03

  I was 11 years old and I remember that I fricking loved it. You know, I was just at that age where you're starting to think anything that happened in my parents' generation sucks. That's the past. And here comes Jerry Jones and he's like, I'm going to take your parents, Dallas Cowboys coach and your grandparents, Dallas Cowboys coach, and I'm going to fire him. And we're going to start fresh. And I was like, hell yes, here we go. I mean, it was like this, he was doing this like, you know, child versus parent thing on my behalf. And the doc reminds us, he fires Tom Landry and then the city of Dallas has a huge parade for Tom Landry. Imagine Bill Belichick, like a week later, they're just marching him down the streets of Boston, like, we just want to thank you, Bill, for everything you've done for this organization.

• 1:05:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, people were horrified.

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:01Bill Simmons?

  That.

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  Do you know how old, I mean, it's weird watching the doc. I forgot, Landry was only 38 years old when they fired him.

• 1:06:08Bill Simmons?

  No, no, he was.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  No, but he was 65. I would have thought he was like 92. You know, 65 is nothing.

• 1:06:13Bill Simmons?

  He's younger than Andy Reid right now.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. So it was weird, but I will say like, I had the same feeling as Curtis. I was a little older, but I was like, all right, maybe this moves things around. This moves the needle with Landry. But then when they traded Herschel Walker, I did not think that was a good idea. Then I was like, oh, we might be dealing with a madman here. Fires Landry and trades Herschel Walker. What were our chances here? So.

• 1:06:38Speaker 03

  I'm glad Sal said the words Nico Harrison already in this podcast because that was the Nico Harrison trade in the moment, in October, 1989.

• 1:06:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, the problem, and they covered in the doc was the way it was reported versus what the trade actually was, was so confusing. Where you get all these players, but then there's these weird secret conditions where if you waive each one, you get this pick. And it was really about the picks, but nobody, we were like, what? They fucking traded Herschel Walker for those five guys? What is this?

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:07:07Bill Simmons?

  And at that point, you think Jerry Jones is just the complete lunatic. And it turns out it was a pretty brilliant trade. When you, the Jerry Jimmy thing, we've been talking about for 30 years. When you watch this with the knowledge of what happened in the last 30 years with Dallas, the Jerry Jimmy thing almost makes more sense in retrospect, where Jerry just the whole time is like, I'm the GM, I'm in charge of this shit. And now we've had 30 years of the Cowboys being terrible. I do, did you have like a sliding doors thing, either of you with, what happens if Jimmy just is the coach the whole time? How does this play out? What if Jerry is just a little bit like, I'm just here to put the right people in

• 1:07:52Bill Simmons?

  charge and help them work? Like, what, what happens to the Cowboys?

• 1:07:56Speaker 03

  So my take on that is it's all Jerry's fault, number one. He screwed everything up. But that if Jimmy had stayed, it would have been a fast burn. Jimmy was Bill Parcells. He was, I'm coming in for five years, I'm going to yell at everybody, and then I'm going to go get bored and go do my next thing. Yeah. Cause if you look, he actually spent fewer years in Miami where he was head coach and GM than he did in Dallas where he was having to share power with Jerry.

• 1:08:22Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:08:23Speaker 03

  I mean, think about that. Like Jimmy was just a fast burn guy. The other thing that Doc kind of touches on is 1993 is the beginning of NFL free agency. So all of a sudden, the most talented team in the league has this problem that no NFL team has ever had before, which is like, we got to actually keep all these players who suddenly have this power. Ken Norton can go to the 49ers and, you know, kill us in the NFC championship game. And that, that I think, I think Jimmy would have lasted one, maybe two more years, and then he would have been gone, even if he'd had everything he wanted.

• 1:08:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's a little like the second apron NBA right now, where all of a sudden it shifted and it just became way harder if you did a really good job building a team to actually keep all the components. The Cowboys had, you know, these assets, but at some point you gotta gather behind some of the assets. What do you, what do you remember about that whole Jimmy era, Sal?

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  I mean, I just what was most fascinating with that. Curtis, how much would you pay for that sign that Jerry Jones claimed he had on his desk that said, if you're willing to give others the credit, you'll conquer the world? Like, how much would that fetch on?

• 1:09:24Speaker 03

  Thousands and thousands of dollars for me personally.

• 1:09:26Speaker 02

  Incredibly ironic. It's amazing. And then he comes out with the announcement that 500 coaches could win a Super Bowl with this team. And at that point, you didn't really know. It was like Kobe Shaq, right? Like, oh, man, who do I try if I have, we have to lose one of them. I'm not going to lose Jerry, really, right? But who do we trust Jerry or Jimmy here? And then they bring in Switzer, who had been gone, removed from anything for like, five years, which is like, like Coach K coaching the Knicks this year, you know, it was, it was very weird. But you're like, all right, you got to think he knows what he's doing. And the fact that you knew Jimmy Johnson was rooting against that team the whole year, and gets the boots on the ground, like, he's out actually announcing, and he's a commentator during halftime and everything. You get to see, to me, that was

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  my favorite part of the thing, those little nuggets that year.

• 1:10:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, some of the stuff when them on the field and just Fox felt they'd finally figured out how to modernize a pregame show. And, you know, early Terry, early Howie with Jimmy, James Brown, and it just felt like, and then eventually use our cousin Jimmy started, when did he start doing the bits? Like 97?

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  99.

• 1:10:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, 99. Yeah, by that time, it had been established as whatever. But that was a really fun era, too, Curtis, of when coaches would come on TV, because Pat Riley started it. He never gets enough credit. Pat Riley went on NBA, on NBC, for I think, one year, and was awesome. And then that led to this whole run, and Johnson was good. But then it led to this run of guys who weren't awesome, like George Seifert, who was one of the worst people ever on TV. But it just, everything felt like, just like the biggest thing in the world. That, I don't know, maybe we're just more used to the grind of football now. And like, all right, week one, Thursday, and there's more football. And there's Thursday,

• 1:11:17Bill Simmons?

  and there's Sunday, and there's Monday, there's gonna be Friday, there's Christmas. And back then, it was like, Man, Dallas is playing San Francisco. This is the biggest game of my life and I'm not even a fan of either team.

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  I think we were perfectly saturated back then. You know what I mean? Now it's oversaturated and now it's like, in addition to everything you just said, we have to wait to see what Stephen A. and McAfee say on Monday morning before we can form our own opinion. It's kind of ridiculous, right?

• 1:11:43Bill Simmons?

  Somebody's zagging, there's somebody's gotta like throw somebody in. Yeah, the, the other thing, and it's weird because this, I'm sure was not an intent of the doc, but it was just a natural outcome, was how important Madden and Somerall were in it. Like, I, I just, I know we've talked about Madden a million times, but 90's Madden and Somerall, I think is the most important announcing team of all time. Like, they really elevated, and when Madden said something like when he's praising Emmett Smith during the game, or when he was mad at that Switzer went for it on that fourth and one.

• 1:12:16Speaker 03

  That's unbelievable. That's unbelievable.

• 1:12:18Bill Simmons?

  You would just kind of feed off whatever his reaction was and it would just become your reaction? I don't know if there's another, is there another announcer like that, Curtis?

• 1:12:25Speaker 03

  I don't think so because nobody says stuff like he did, you know? Like Madden, Madden was not Stephen A. Smith. Let us, let us be clear about that. But when he criticized you like he did with Switzer that moment against the Eagles, fourth and one, where they go for it twice because the first play didn't count and they still run the same play again, and he would just blast you. That was huge.

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  So what was your single favorite part of this doc, Sal? Can I just say, I felt with Madden and Somerall, I felt the weather when they were announcing.

• 1:12:54Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's a great point.

• 1:12:56Speaker 02

  I don't know if it was the spacing between their words or between, you know, whatever else. And, and yeah, they were important. I watched the old Madden thing, the special, right? Would you do that for anything else like now? So, um, my favorite part, uh, the Skip Bayless testimonials really hit home with, no, no, I hated that. The skip stuff, I'm sorry, people, you're gonna have to, it's like the Dr. Melphi scenes with Tony. You're just gonna wish you could fast forward through them and get to the more tired irons.

• 1:13:23Bill Simmons?

  But he had to be in there though. He was the biggest chronicler of that team. Like, they couldn't avoid having him.

• 1:13:30Speaker 02

  Um, my biggest takeaway or my favorite thing is that I have a new appreciation for Jerry Jones because I looked at it through the lens of him being a gambler. Like he talks about, and it's all in the first like seven minutes of the thing, right? He's like, talks about, I had this one well, I had vested $800 million or whatever into this well. And if this didn't gush, I was in trouble and it gushed. And he's like, he like a flowery description of how it did, whatever. And then he struck it and I was, and we knew like Jerry, like he took chances. I think he like owned like Shaky's Pizza, he like tried to borrow money from his father to own Shaky's Pizza. But that to me, it's like, oh yeah.

• 1:14:08Bill Simmons?

  Wait, for real? Shaky's Pizza?

• 1:14:09Speaker 02

  I swear to God, look it up. Yeah.

• 1:14:10Bill Simmons?

  Come on.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  Shaky's Pizza. Look it up. It's right there. Yeah.

• 1:14:13Bill Simmons?

  Now we can own Shaky's Pizza.

• 1:14:15Speaker 02

  I know. Now we got it. Uh, so that, that to me was the big, oh, I understand Jerry more. Doesn't mean I hate what, what he's doing less, but I do understand him.

• 1:14:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, you understand Jerry more and then you understand how the last 30 years happened. Cause the same irrational confidence to be like, I'm throwing everything into this last well. And I'm going to fire Tom Landry and hire Jimmy Johnson is the same piece that leads to the last 30 years. But I mean, Curtis, the thing I was the most worried with this, especially after the craft experience. And I had the opposite experience when we did the Celtic stock, like the owners just trusted us on it as to our thing. Jerry sold this to Netflix and Skydance and

• 1:14:57Bill Simmons?

  the worst case scenario of just, just, just being a Jerry Hagiaography, it really wasn't. I actually thought they were like, it was like a warts and all Jerry. I mean, obviously they could have gone further with how dysfunctional I think some of the family stuff is. And having his son, you know, basically the two of them and whatever is going on with the credit grabbing in that family and I, who knows? But I thought for the most part, pretty fair, right?

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  I didn't hear the words paternity suit anywhere in the documentary. And that might've been the price of admission to get in.

• 1:15:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  And when it starts, all the main characters, Jerry, Troy, Emmett, they're sitting in front of these like Western movie sets. And it felt like when a billionaire invites all his friends to his birthday party.

• 1:15:39Speaker 03

  And they have to come and they're sitting in front of some very elaborate kind of thing. And everybody's like, oh, what are we doing?

• 1:15:44Bill Simmons?

  By the way, I got worried with the first five minutes. I was like, oh, no.

• 1:15:48Speaker 03

  It was a little overproduced.

• 1:15:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And then it just settles down and becomes awesome. By the way, the Way brothers directed this, who are, I think are really great.

• 1:15:56Speaker 03

  Great job.

• 1:15:57Bill Simmons?

  It settles down in seven minutes and we're off.

• 1:16:00Speaker 03

  Two things save it to me. One is it's not really the Jerry story. That's kind of woven in there, but it's really the story of the nineties Cowboys, which is the story you want. Thing number two, and this is my MVP of the whole series is Michael Irvin, ladies and gentlemen, the playmaker. I mean, you mentioned the Cowboys White House where the, the partying happened that was over by the practice field.

• 1:16:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:20Speaker 03

  All the players in the dock are like, you know, we don't talk about the White House. And Michael's like, actually, let's talk about the White House. Let me tell you all the stories of the things that happened. Let me tell you about the time I stabbed a teammate with scissors. Like he goes into all that stuff.

• 1:16:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. I was not expecting that at all. I was expecting kind of the sanitized Michael Irvin interview, but he's like, no, no, here's everything that happened. Let's go. And that's the other thing. Documentary is kind of ebb and flow with maybe the best eight interviews in the documentary. That's why like Last Dance had you have Michael, you have Phil Jackson, you have Steve Kerr, you have Scottie Pippen, you have people who are actually compelling to see interviewed. This one has Aikman, who's been, you know, I think the, he's the best broadcaster in the league out of all the ex-players at this point. He, I think it's lately that he grabbed the title, but I do think he's the best guy.

• 1:17:16Bill Simmons?

  You have Michael Irvin, who was on TV forever. You have Emmett, who's done some TV stuff, who's pretty competent. You have Jerry, who's a character. You have Jimmy Johnson, who's been on TV forever. And then you have Dion, who has had multiple documentaries about him. So just you start with those six. It's like, yeah, of course this is going to be good. Not to mention all the other stuff, but I thought Irvin was I like, actually I'd forgotten how compelling of a nineties character he was and how many jokes we used to make about him. And he was one of those guys. He was just like, I don't know if this guy's gonna be alive in a year. Inside, it's about he's still alive now.

• 1:17:50Speaker 02

  I mean, it was up for murder for hire thing. Like, thank God he wasn't killed in that.

• 1:17:55Bill Simmons?

  Have you forgotten about that?

• 1:17:56Speaker 02

  That was another one I had just forgotten about.

• 1:18:00Speaker 03

  A Dallas police officer was the person who was alive.

• 1:18:03Speaker 02

  Rumor. Yeah, yeah. I know. He's a national. He was my favorite of the bunch. And by the way, you can't say enough about Aikman. Even if you don't think he's the best commentator that he, Joe Buck should be propping him up. The fact that he could speak coherently at this point.

• 1:18:17Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:18:18Speaker 02

  If it's graded on a concussion curve, he's the greatest analyst of all time. There's no question about it.

• 1:18:23Bill Simmons?

  There was some stuff I just forgot because I'm older and my brain, just the sports info sometimes just gets squeezed out. I totally forgot about the Steve Burline.

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:18:34Bill Simmons?

  Coming in and then Aikman being ready to play. And then they're like, no, we're riding with Burline. He's hot. That one, I was thinking like now in 2025, I think that would actually cause a riot.

• 1:18:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:45Bill Simmons?

  I think that would cause a sports talk riot. Nobody would know what to do on First Take with that situation, right?

• 1:18:50Speaker 03

  Bill, Skip Bayless, six to eight, KLF in Dallas. That was every segment. That was the A block every night. Trust me.

• 1:18:57Bill Simmons?

  Can you imagine? I don't know if there's a better, what should they do? Cause benching the hot quarterback is always dangerous. But then Aikman and then he was pissed about it. So that piece was awesome. I forgot that Niners game where they're playing Steve Young with Montana on the bench. Like the theater of that, it's hard to explain like how important that, everything about that was. Cause Montana was the best quarterback of all time. This sort of been like doing this to Brady and like with Garoppolo in 2015. It was just inconceivable. They weren't going to play him and then Dallas is trying to beat them and all the history of those teams going back to the catch. That was great. And then the Bill stuff, which has been in different documentaries, but um, I'd forgotten that in that last Super Bowl.

• 1:19:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the Bills, maybe they're gonna do it this time. And then it just like went off the deep end again with them like it always seemed to do. But what else did you just forget that you hadn't thought about in a while, Curtis?

• 1:19:55Speaker 03

  Jerry Jones was tied to Jimmy Hoffa, like early in his business career. That was a whoa, I didn't remember that one.

• 1:20:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:02Speaker 03

  The Aikman part, I remembered him getting knocked out of the NFC Championship game, the second one against the 49ers. I forgot that the Super Bowl was a week later.

• 1:20:12Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:20:12Speaker 03

  And he goes out there and plays in the Super Bowl. This is a guy who has no memory to this day of the NFC Championship game. No memory. A week later, he's playing the Super Bowl, and I forgot how just kind of bad or mediocre he was in that game.

• 1:20:25Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:20:25Speaker 03

  And of course, knowing what we know now, it's like, of course, of course, he was.

• 1:20:29Bill Simmons?

  That's another piece of this, like the whole, the lack of knowledge about CT concussions, all that stuff. By the way, Sal has no memory of the game, Romo, when he dropped the PAT against the Seahawks. He's blocked out that entire three hours.

• 1:20:42Speaker 03

  Leave meeting here.

• 1:20:44Bill Simmons?

  Doesn't remember any piece of it. Sal, was there anything you completely forgot out of this when you were watching it?

• 1:20:50Speaker 02

  Completely forget, but I forgot what a train wreck Charles Haley was before we even brought him in. Like, he pissed on the 49ers GM's desk, and it was widely known. And they still, the Cowboys, like, yeah, let's bring him in. Jerry's like, imagine like Zach Lowe defecated on Jimmy Pataro's desk. And you're like, yeah.

• 1:21:08Speaker 03

  Better story.

• 1:21:09Speaker 02

  Maybe that'll come out. Let's spread that rumor. But yeah, that was great. I'm trying to think what else was good. I mean, Michael Irvin with the fur coat, I can never see that enough times, walking in his first day of a court appearance. Like, that was tremendous. Steven shoving Jerry after the Deion deal, which was the angriest Jerry ever was, right? He even admitted he cried after that 20. But they go down 21-0, they lose to the 49ers. They come back, as you pointed out, you were sending texts of the box score. It was crazy how the Cowboys just dominated them that game. But yeah, I like, this is another like pro Jerry thing, like, and you have to, as an entrepreneur, you should appreciate this.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  Like, Jerry's like, fuck the rest of the league. I got this Fox deal done. I'm gonna sign Deion. He's got, his son is shoving him up against the wall, and he's like laughing. He's like, I'm gonna sign this Nike deal, and then I'm gonna get sued by the league, but I'm gonna countersue for more and scare the shit out of him, and everyone's gonna back off. Like, he really did put this, this league in the position it is right now.

• 1:22:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the Nike deal, I forgot how uh kind of crazy was that he was just like, yeah, I'm gonna do my own thing. Fuck you guys. When you have a league where everybody is sharing revenue and is supposed to be equal to some degree is like, no, we're actually not equal. Dallas is bigger than all you guys. I thought the, the one thing I didn't feel like in the first part, I thought they could have spent five more minutes on how the Cowboys post JFK in the seventies.

• 1:22:42Bill Simmons?

  Just all of a sudden felt like they were the most important franchise. I get like for me as a little kid, and a lot of it had to do with the cheerleaders and the TV show.

• 1:22:49Speaker 02

  I have that written down.

• 1:22:50Bill Simmons?

  Those two things, right? And so by the, by the time we got to like when they, when they beat the Rams in the NFC title game, it just felt like Dallas was the center of the universe based on stupid stuff like cheerleaders and, and uh, and the who shot JR, uh, plus that they are relevant. So then when it kind of died in the eighties and they got replaced by the Bears and the Niners and the Redskins and the Giants and Dallas was kind of fading away. I, I would have spent like a tiny bit more time on that. Like Jerry Saw. No, actually this should be the biggest franchise and went all in on it. But other than that, I don't really have a lot of notes. I thought they uh, thought they nailed it. I wish they would have had a little more on the family.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:36Bill Simmons?

  Like what, what would you, what would you wanted from the family side?

• 1:23:39Speaker 02

  Well, you bring it up, but the Dallas, the TV show kind of fueled like got everyone prepared for this crazy rich family, right? It's fighting and drinking at the owners meeting. Everybody gets drunk and kept tells Edward, oh, stick around. I'm gonna fire this son of a bitch. Like it would, it would have been like the season finale of every, you know, season of Dallas, which was great. The only other thing I thought, I don't know if uh, Curtis, did you miss the, the Steve Walsh stuff? It was Steve Walsh, right? And played for the Saints.

• 1:24:05Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  It was gonna be, it was Aikman Walsh. It was, it was toe to, they were toe to toe for a while. It wasn't automatically Aikman um, starting for a second.

• 1:24:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think that's fair.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  They would have had like three minutes of that.

• 1:24:16Speaker 03

  And people forget how crazy that thing that Jimmy Johnson did was. So he drafts Trakman one, one in 1989, and then he spends the first pick in the supplemental draft, a couple of months later, on Steve Walsh. The Cowboys turned out to be the worst team in the league that year. So he gave up the number one pick in the draft the next year, number one overall for Steve Walsh after drafting his franchise quarterback. But Jimmy was just firing so many bullets and that was part of his style, right? Like, I'm gonna make 20 draft picks and I'm gonna just bet that like five of them will work out and I'll trade the other ones away. But yeah, that was, that, that should have at least worn it 30 seconds.

• 1:24:54Bill Simmons?

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• 1:25:38Bill Simmons?

  the ringer, argue with Chris Ryan, AKA CR. But even dream jobs have not so dreamy parts. You know, the work that slows you down never seems to go away. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They're like digital teammates who actually do the job, start to finish, no handoffs, no homework. That means more time for the work that actually matters, which for me is talking about whether the 86 Celtics can beat the 96 Bulls, which they could. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. The Switzer Aikman stuff, which I, I knew because I read a couple of the books.

• 1:26:15Bill Simmons?

  Though that I was surprised they went as hard as they did into the racist stuff with Aikman, the allegations and they covered all that. They did not cover some of the, some of the other stuff that's in the Bayless books that, um, I remember Curtis, you wrote about this for The Ringer in 2016, that at one point Switzer's like camp was spreading all this stuff about Aikman, that he was gay and, and it became like a story in Dallas. And the story was that these guys hate each other so much that Switzer's side is actually maybe spreading some of this stuff. The doc did not touch that, but it did touch the racist stuff. I, I was surprised that didn't touch both.

• 1:26:54Speaker 03

  It was interesting and I wonder, I wonder about that decision on their part, but you got the key detail there was it was Barry Switzer's camp was doing this while Barry Switzer was coaching the Cowboys.

• 1:27:04Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:27:05Speaker 03

  About his all world quarterback.

• 1:27:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:08Speaker 03

  And you're just thinking like that happened and the doc reminded me that some of that stuff was kind of out there on Super Bowl week. Like people were talking about it in the media.

• 1:27:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they had to do a press conference about it.

• 1:27:19Speaker 03

  I know we're rehabbing everybody. We're rehabbing Jerry. We're rehabbing her, but we don't need to rehab Barry Switzer as an NFL coach. I mean, I felt the doc got real close to trying to do that. It's like, okay, the players liked him. I wonder why.

• 1:27:32Bill Simmons?

  That felt like that was coming, but that might've been Jerry's one note. Like, I don't care what you say about me in this doc, but can we make it seem like Switzer was

• 1:27:39Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:27:40Bill Simmons?

  somewhat competent. My memory of this 30 years ago, Sal was, they won despite Switzer. Yeah. Is that fair?

• 1:27:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. I mean, listen, I was at that Super Bowl and the last one we won. And I was in the end zone that O'Donnell was driving on before he threw the interception. So it was like, kind of scary, but, um, yes, they definitely won despite it. Look, like I said, he went out of his way to get the best player in the league, a two-way player. They're paying Deon way more than they're paying Aikman and Irvin and all these guys. And they all embrace him. I don't know how they got that past those guys. Just like, all right, he's going to play two ways. So he deserves more money than you. I guess that was it. But yes, I think, uh, it was, yeah, he was, he kind of just got in the way and the. Fact that he had a fricking full out brawl or just a like a just a conflict with his quarterback. We haven't seen that in a long time.

• 1:28:33Bill Simmons?

  And Aikman still seemed mad about it 30 years later, Curtis. You notice that? Like he, he was not like, yeah, you know, time passes. He was still like, fuck that guy. Gets hit by a two by four.

• 1:28:45Speaker 03

  For, for good reason. I mean, again, it's like Trey was like, what, what did I have to do to earn your respect? I mean, can you imagine a quarterback being treated like that now by his head coach? The power dynamics are just completely different.

• 1:28:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's, and that's going back to the nostalgia piece. You know, when we have like, like some of the Patriots stuff that was happening in the late 2010s that like ESPN and Seth Wickersham was writing about. And it was like the, the Garoppolo, Brady, Belichick, Kraft. This is, there's a lot of passive aggressive stuff going on. This was just aggressive back then. This is like a coach leaking shit about his quarterback and the quarterback just openly shitting on the coach. They had great NFL Films footage of, you know, Aikman just complaining about the coach on the sideline, talking, calling him a buffoon. This was, this made the Pat stuff look like a, a one out of 10 from a dysfunction standpoint.

• 1:29:40Bill Simmons?

  That sounded this, did this make you like Jerry more or less as your Cowboys owner? Cause you haven't won, you haven't even made the Superbowl, much less won one in 30 years. And yeah, this was such a great era and he was responsible for it. So how do you balance that?

• 1:29:57Speaker 02

  It's just like, I, I, I remember that we were once great and I, and then I, I forget that we can be this great. And then it's like, oh shit, I watched this. Like what the hell did he do? How does this happen? But as a, as a fan of the Cowboys, I don't respect them more, but I feel like as a fan of football, you should respect them coming out of it. He made this league.

• 1:30:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:17Speaker 02

  As big as it is. So your fantasy teams or everything, I don't know if it exists without Jerry Jones.

• 1:30:24Bill Simmons?

  Right. And they didn't even go to the arena. What, what's your take on that, Curtis?

• 1:30:27Speaker 03

  It made me love old Jerry and remember how exciting it was to have him as the owner of my favorite team back then. It also reminded me that what Jerry wants most in the world is A to just have a job. Like just talk to me in the draft room. So I can pretend like I understand why we're drafting Tyler Booker. That's one thing. The other thing is, he wants to be a character in the prestige TV show that is the Dallas Cowboys. And literally, in this case, is the prestige Netflix doc of the Cowboys.

• 1:30:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:55Speaker 03

  Like, that's what he wants. And that's the Micah thing, right? He just wants it to be, after a long standoff with Jerry Jones, comma, Micah Parsons signed the biggest deal for any defensive player in league history. Like, he just, he just wants to do that. And you can see in this doc, he got addicted to that in the 90s. Like, he got addicted to being a character, not just an owner, not just a winner.

• 1:31:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think you could genuinely make the case. I was thinking about this after I watched it. This is probably the most memorable NFL owner ever. Doesn't mean he's the best, but it's like the same way, like, Sal and I, Steinbrenner, just sticks out unlike anyone else. Like, and even like, when we were little kids, like, Charlie O. Finley was just crazy, but they won all that, some of the A's. But these owners that also become characters and parts, just part of the history in a completely different way, which I think Kraft tried to belatedly make it seem, and he just wasn't. Like, he, it was Brady and Belichick that whole time. Jones was just, I remember meeting Jones, and I think it was 2010, at the All-Star

• 1:32:00Bill Simmons?

  Weekend, whenever that was for NBA, at a bar in the Four Seasons. And I was with some ESPN higher-ups, and we met Jones, and he was at the bar, and he had girl on each side, drink, drinking whatever whiskey or whatever. And he was just exactly like I would have thought. You know, I was like, hey, Bill, how are you? And it was, it was just like, this guy's a fucking character. He's out of, he's out of like, like a Taylor Sheridan show, which he literally was, because he was in the Taylor Sheridan show.

• 1:32:29Speaker 02

  You forget about like, the, you talk about the telecast, and Madden, and Summerall, and how much it meant. Jerry put himself on the sideline. It's such a big thing, that an owner is there on the sideline. And that cutaway at the end of a game, God forbid the Cowboys lost, I don't even know how much it's worth to the network, but we could all see it in our heads, right? 30 years later, them losing whatever to the Dolphins in the, in the Thanksgiving game, or you don't see it. Now, it's a Taylor Swift cutaway that you hope to get like, five times, but.

• 1:32:56Bill Simmons?

  So he might have invented that, but he definitely also invented the, let's let the cameras into our draft room, so they can see us celebrating the picks. Because Jimmy talks in the doc about, what the fuck are cameras doing in here? We're trying to pick our roster.

• 1:33:11Bill Simmons?

  Trying to think anything else. We, I think we hit everything.

• 1:33:13Speaker 03

  I would just want to say that.

• 1:33:14Speaker 02

  The only other thing I'll say is, I'm sorry, I got cursed.

• 1:33:16Speaker 03

  I was just gonna say, like, as, as, you know, a child of the nineties, uh, you guys lived in the nineties. The thing that made me a little sad is how old everybody is now. I mean, how many thick voices are in this documentary? Jerry's, Jimmy's, Barry's, you know, Rupert Murdoch is in this doc in his nineties. You know, Phil Knight's in this doc. George W. Bush's voice sounded awfully thick in this. And I'm like, man, everybody's getting older. All those times are getting away from us.

• 1:33:43Bill Simmons?

  And then Aikman just looks as handsome as ever. Looks like he might be 32. What did you have, Sal?

• 1:33:50Speaker 02

  No, the Aikman thing I was gonna bring up is like, uh, I feel like his playing career, his attitude mimicked his broadcasting career. Remember he was, I don't want to say vanilla, it's the wrong word for his first few years of broadcasting. But then he got angry. He's now angry in the booth and he gives you like a raw, you know, it's, it's unfiltered and you kind of see like he gets mad at the players and everything. And you saw that the last three, four years of his career on the Cowboys sideline. But by the way, that was one of the saddest things with, he's gaining all those concussions. Like, I mean, it's just like a, a screen pass to Darrell Johnston was the best he could do for like four yards. Those last three years, it's like, please get the morphine drip on him already. This is so sad.

• 1:34:29Bill Simmons?

  And there was a good what if that I had forgotten when the, uh, left tackle got in a car accident. Eric Williams that, uh, that probably swung a Super Bowl. Yeah. So we've had injuries swing Super Bowls, but not a, not the late night car accident when something bad's about to happen.

• 1:34:47Speaker 03

  And that the Cowboys were at the scene, the other players.

• 1:34:50Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:34:51Speaker 03

  I had forgotten that detail that they were running up and looking at the car after the accident. What?

• 1:34:55Bill Simmons?

  So most disappointing was that the White House was in a palatial mansion for me.

• 1:35:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:02Bill Simmons?

  It just looked like a run of the mill house and you know, like Monrovia.

• 1:35:06Speaker 03

  Right, right. Yeah, there wasn't, there couldn't have been 50 girls in there, right? Women and they're like jumping around, right? I think, I think it seems like there was like two and three in and out every, every night.

• 1:35:16Bill Simmons?

  I did have more questions about that because they said it was four bedrooms and it just didn't seem like enough bedrooms.

• 1:35:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:35:24Bill Simmons?

  Probably needed maybe some, some other stuff in there. All right. So how do you think, how do you think this is going to hit this documentary, Curtis? Cause it does, The Last Dance had the, had the.

• 1:35:35Speaker 03

  The pandemic?

• 1:35:37Bill Simmons?

  The pandemic and no sports whatsoever and is the all time best possible setup for a doc. This is before the NFL season starts and you can binge it all at once. The binge element of it, which Last Dance didn't have.

• 1:35:55Bill Simmons?

  I mean, you guys lived it. I lived it too. Like it's impossible to stop watching. Like you just, you, all right. And it's definitely the first one of those in a while. We're like, all right. And now all of a sudden you're five hours in. So I think it's going to hit pretty big.

• 1:36:08Speaker 03

  I think so too, because just think about this. When was the last time Jerry Jones was complimented on an NFL podcast?

• 1:36:16Speaker 03

  People won't know and they're going to turn this on and be like, wow, wow. He did the Fox deal. He did the Nike deal.

• 1:36:21Bill Simmons?

  If you're under 30, you probably don't know any of this stuff, right? Like my son wouldn't know one of these things.

• 1:36:26Speaker 03

  And to your 86 Celtics thing, I'm just like, you know, you'll remember that Emmitt Smith was also awesome. I know we've decided as a society that Barry was better, whatever, but like these guys were awesome. These guys kicked everybody's ass in the nineties.

• 1:36:40Speaker 02

  That Cowboys game against the Giants, that New Year's Day game. I was in Las Vegas with my friends, Harry and Darren and Joey, and we had lost all our money. So we had to watch that game at my Aunt Chippy's house on my cousin Mickey's 25 inch TV. I'm trying to think like that, things like that, as shitty as that was, that made it so much more important. There's not any scenario that I would have to watch it on a 25 inch TV. Thank God, knock wood at this point, but yeah, I mean, it was the greatest. And I think it's going to be good. Normally I thought, I was like, oh man, this might be released like a week too late. Cause now it competes with Hard Knocks and everything. It shouldn't, it really shouldn't. It's great. And I think it'll knock it out in a couple of days.

• 1:37:18Bill Simmons?

  I actually think Emmitt's a big winner out of this. He still holds the record, by the way.

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:25Bill Simmons?

  Right? Like, and like, pretty, I was looking at the league leaders or the all time career leaders. Only one who even has like a puncher's chance of thinking about it is Derrick Henry. Because these running back careers go so fast now, you know, Emmett was just grinding out 15, 1600 yards a year forever and was really durable. And even when he got hurt, could still play. You know, but I, I, I'll fight Emmett versus Barry. I'll fight to the death. I've talked about it on the pod. I just like, if the goal is to actually win Super Bowls and not just have cool Twitter clips and a fun Madden rating, like you want Emmitt Smith.

• 1:38:04Speaker 02

  God bless you, Bill.

• 1:38:05Bill Simmons?

  He was five yards a carry. He showed up for every game. He was tough as fucking shit. He blocked. He was just, he's still to me in the, in the Mount Rushmore for me. So.

• 1:38:16Speaker 02

  No doubt about it.

• 1:38:17Bill Simmons?

  I have no dog in this race.

• 1:38:19Speaker 02

  Good for you. I'm glad you said that. I don't know if you're kissing our ass or what. I don't know why you would have to, but that's, uh, that's the right take.

• 1:38:25Bill Simmons?

  And I think Urban is one of the best playoff receivers we've had. I do think Aikman's overrated, but I don't think it's his fault because in the nineties, you could just kick the shit out of quarterbacks. So it's like playing nine years in that era is a fucking miracle.

• 1:38:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's tough because great offensive line, great, what are his stats supposed to be? If you have the greatest running back of all time, the running back with the, you know, the record, what, how, what is his stat? All he had to be was accurate and a great leader.

• 1:38:52Bill Simmons?

  The Berlin thing wasn't awesome for the Aikman arguments.

• 1:38:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe not. Yeah.

• 1:38:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you know.

• 1:38:59Speaker 02

  It's just one season, Bill. I mean, that was.

• 1:39:00Bill Simmons?

  I know, but I'm.

• 1:39:01Speaker 02

  Ninety-one.

• 1:39:02Bill Simmons?

  You know, he did have a loaded team. Anyway, all right. I'm glad you guys enjoyed this. I had a great time. Curtis, would this been the number one team you would have wanted to cover?

• 1:39:12Speaker 03

  Yes. Yes. I would have never slept, but I would have.

• 1:39:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, how would you have slept?

• 1:39:17Speaker 03

  And I would have been drinking with Jerry at the owners meetings, you know, I would have been peering through the windows of the White House. It would have been an interesting beat.

• 1:39:25Speaker 02

  There are four bedrooms in the White House, Curtis. They would have given you one.

• 1:39:28Bill Simmons?

  At least got a couch.

• 1:39:29Speaker 02

  Time share or something.

• 1:39:31Bill Simmons?

  Sal Curtis, great to see you as always.

• 1:39:33Speaker 03

  Thanks, Bill.

• 1:39:33Speaker 02

  Good job by you.

• 1:39:35Bill Simmons?

  All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Sal and Curtis. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahal as well. And I'm going to be back with one more podcast. I think we're going to have a Thursday podcast this week and not Sunday. So one more coming for me this week. I will see you then.

• 1:40:03Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. Or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller

• 1:40:46Bill Simmons?

  from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh. Writer-director of The Banshees of Minnehoshan and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. Set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island, Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys. Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9. Only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by Core Power Protein Shakes. You know how we always talk about the little things that separate great athletes?

• 1:41:30Bill Simmons?

  Post-workout recovery is a big factor. Core Power Protein Shakes help you keep going after your workout with high-quality protein to build muscle and electrolytes to help hydrate. It's all you need for your recovery in one bottle. Available in 26 and 42 gram protein options to pick what works best for you. Visit corepower.com to learn more.