E50: Jake Humphrey - My Grandma's Suicide Saved Me

In my most recent episode of The Diary of a CEO, I sat down with the incredibly successful TV presenter, journalist and entrepreneur Jake Humphrey. Jake has gone from being an unqualified drop out, who was fired from McDonalds after just two months for a lack of communication skills to one of the UK’s most well known TV presenters, with accolades such as CBBC, BT Sport, Formula One and much more. Jake also co-founded the production company Whisper Films, alongside former BBC Sport producer Sunil Patel and David Coulthard and the business has grown from £1.5m to almost £20m. Our conversation was extremely honest and open. Jake has struggled to come to terms with the common misconceptions of who he is, battling suicidal thoughts and developing an unhealthy relationship with social media. We discuss the best way to move forward with the devastating impact social media can have and why failure is the key to being successful. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Steven Bartlett?

  A few weeks ago, the world lost a remarkable on-screen talent in Caroline Flack. It's believed that the pressure of limelight and endless public scrutiny became too much for her to handle. Being famous, being successful, I guess is supposed to mean satisfaction. It's supposed to mean happiness. At least that's what Instagram and magazines and culture have always taught me. My next guest has lived his whole career in the spotlight too. He's one of the country's most successful TV presenters and he's worked across every major TV channel that there is, especially in the sports industry. Onscreen, you see one thing, the same thing, every time. But behind every face, there's a story of heartbreak, a story of struggle, hardship, pain and failure.

• 0:53Steven Bartlett?

  Jake Humphrey is a TV presenter. He's a journalist and he's a very successful entrepreneur and a lot of people don't really know about that. He's a guy I've grown up watching on TV pretty much my whole adult life. I think most people would just think he's that football guy or just that Formula One guy. But most people would be wrong. He's so much more. Jake's story is fascinating. It's one of failure, suicidal thoughts, getting to grips with online abuse that comes with being in the spotlight. It's a story of lessons learnt from working alongside the world's leading high-performance sports stars and managers. It's using everything you've learnt to rise from that and turn yourself into a tremendously successful individual.

• 1:33Steven Bartlett?

  It was an immense privilege to get to speak to the guy who spends all of his time speaking to the most talented people in the world. I learnt so much and you will too. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 2:02Steven Bartlett?

  Jake, thank you for coming on the podcast.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Pleasure.

• 2:05Steven Bartlett?

  I consider it a real honour. You know, you're someone that I've watched a lot on TV. I'm a big sports fan, I'm a big F1 fan as well, so I've seen your face a lot. So, you know, it's sometimes surreal to see someone who you've watched a lot on TV in person. But here's where I wanted to start with the podcast, which is you have a job that I think a lot of people would like. In fact, even in my own company, there are so many people that knew I was coming to meet you today and said that you have the dream job that they want. Why did you get that job?

• 2:35Speaker 01

  That is a brilliant first question. Why did I get that job? I think it is because I failed and I genuinely believe that. You know, I don't know how much you know of the story, but I was at, I was at school in Norfolk and I failed my A levels. I was the most, my story is so similar to yours. I was the most bang average kid at school and I got an E, an N, an EU for my three A levels and had to go back to school to retake them. And it's hard to not believe in fate, right? When you go back to school to redo your exams and the very first day you go back, your politics teacher has a letter from a local TV channel asking people in that class to go on to a new digital channel or a new cable channel back in the late 90s to talk about politics.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  And I went down there and I said to them, I failed my A levels. All my mates have gone off around the world, I had gap year, well, they've gone off to university. Like, this is a massively embarrassing period for me. Could I come and do some work here at the weekends as well as being on the TV show? I'd actually been fired from McDonald's as well, only about three, three or four weeks before I failed my A levels for a lack of communication skills.

• 3:43Steven Bartlett?

  How long did you last in McDonald's? I lasted two days.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  I was about there about four months.

• 3:46Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  But to be fired from there for a lack of communication skills and now to be sitting here talking to you about that was, is a kind of a weird thing when you reflect on it, but. It was that A level failure that meant I ended up at this tiny channel called Rapture TV, that meant I ended up at Children's BBC, that meant I got the Formula One job, that meant I've ended up at BT Sport and now I'm sitting here talking to you. I know there's obviously loads of, loads of moments in between there and now, but it was that initial failure.

• 4:14Steven Bartlett?

  But, but so often when people encounter an initial failure very early on, it takes them in the opposite direction. It's like a race to the bottom for them because their confidence is knocked, which means they try less, which means their confidence never builds. And then they, and the cycle kind of continues. But, you know, is there a reason that you can identify in yourself why failure took you in a better direction?

• 4:35Speaker 01

  I think I was well equipped by my parents that life is not just a bed of roses, basically. I'm, I'm a firm believer now that I've got little kids of my own, that you have to teach your kids to fail. You know, as a parent, I think we often try and build the world around our children so that they don't fail at any time. And then suddenly you get to eighteen or nineteen, you hit your first ever failure. And you can't deal with it because you've not been equipped at a young age to deal with it. And actually, my parents instilled a real work ethic in us. So I had a paper round from the age of about twelve or thirteen. I was almost forced to go and do the gardening for an old man who lived next door to mum and dad for about two pounds an hour or whatever. I've talked about, you know, being fired from McDonald's, that was a sort of a failure moment.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  I think part of it, Stephen, is that when I was eighteen, nineteen and I failed my A levels, part of the reason why that happened was because I was actually quite a late developer. I was quite immature, you know, I couldn't have done more than I did at that time. I honestly don't believe because I just wasn't equipped for it. My brain just wasn't sort of developed enough. And then as my brain sort of got to the point where I was, I suppose, um, I was old enough to be able to deal with, with things. That's when failure came along and it was almost like it happened at the right time for me. If it had happened too much earlier, I think I would have struggled with it.

• 5:49Steven Bartlett?

  What's the, what are the biggest misconceptions about you?

• 5:54Speaker 01

  That I'm smug. And I don't know where that comes from. Like you spoke at the beginning about um. People in your office going, oh, I'd love to have that job. I think it's almost because people assume that if they had the job that I've got, they would be smug because they've got the job. And that is just simply not the case, but maybe it's smug to sit here and say I'm not smug. I don't know. Um. But that is something I get all the time on social media, on Twitter and places like that. Um. I think the other, the other thing is, is that I'm just sort of lucky to be where I am. Like. I don't rea- I believe in fate and I think I was really fortunate to get that first opportunity to go to Rapture TV and start my broadcasting career.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  But I don't think that luck has really played a part in getting me to this point now. You know, I think I've sort of worked out. The building blocks to success and I think that anyone can do it. I think anyone listening to this podcast. And who, and obviously they are the kind of people that are minded towards success anyway, because they listen to this. And this is what this part, for me, anyway, this is what your podcast is all about. I listen to it. All the time. I think it's about success. No matter what you talk about, for me, it's about success. And I think that um, I honestly believe that anyone, anyone can get their hands on success.

• 7:09Steven Bartlett?

  Why is it that some people don't become successful? Some normal people like you that went, you know, crap in school. Why is it that those people that therefore don't become successful and why Jake Humphries, who also was a very normal kid in school. Went on to become successful. That's really the point I'm trying to get to is, is what's the, the, is it a mindset difference? Is it?

• 7:30Speaker 01

  I think we have to be really careful, right? When we talk about this, because I think we both have been successful. But that doesn't mean that just because it's happened to us, then, then um, it's something that's really simple and, and it can be achieved by anybody. It's almost like just because it happened to us, we think it's the same rule for everybody else. I, I don't think that. I don't think that success comes from expecting it to arrive. I think that you can be successful if you know the the trick to being successful. Does that make sense?

• 8:04Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  And I think the trick, personally, I think the trick to being successful is an absolute rock solid responsibility for every single miniscule part of your life. And I sometimes really struggle to explain this point to people. And I mean, total responsibility, total one hundred percent responsibility for absolutely everything, even things that are not your responsibility. Because I don't see any benefit with putting the blame for any part of your life onto anybody else, because it's not other people's job to sort that life out, right? It's only yours.

• 8:38Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  So there might be, let's take you as a prime example, right? Um, maybe it kind of was your fault, but let's say when you left university, right? It wasn't your fault. Yeah, it's still your responsibility to deal with that.

• 8:53Steven Bartlett?

  Of course.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  What about all the times when you were trying to get success and you were in your late teens, early twenties, and you you didn't manage it, right?

• 9:00Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Not necessarily your fault, but still your responsibility to keep going to the next thing.

• 9:05Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Um, and then when things do start going well, it might not be your fault that they've gone well. It might just be that the time was right. But then again, it's your responsibility to take control of that. And I just think if people can get into a mindset where absolutely everything is totally on them and on nobody else, it's almost like a door was open. And I thought, oh, my goodness, that's, that's the thing. I have to take responsibility for everything. And as soon as I do that.

• 9:29Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Then it leaves no excuses.

• 9:32Steven Bartlett?

  And how you were raised plays a huge, huge role. Because I, now you've said that, I was in my head, I was thinking about how much I was raised with that, almost accidentally, the fact that when I'd wake up in the morning, my parents weren't there. And when I went to sleep at night, they still were at work.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:44Steven Bartlett?

  Every day for about seven, eight years from the age of ten to eighteen. And I was explaining on a podcast yesterday that made this connection in my mind that if I was gonna have anything, it was me that was gonna do it, even my packed lunch in the morning. And so I went off into the world with this mindset that because my parents created this massive void, that everything I was gonna get was on me. I wasn't gonna get Christmas or birthdays. I wasn't gonna get two pounds in the morning for lunch.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  It was your responsibility.

• 10:09Steven Bartlett?

  It was my responsibility to feed myself. And actually, for me, that was really liberating because it made it made the whole world attainable to me in a weird way. When you believe that, you know, Santa Claus is gonna show up and present things to the Christmas tree.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  When did that moment come though? When did you, when did?

• 10:25Steven Bartlett?

  Fourteen years old, I think I really, I remember I went off to London to do the junior apprentice for the BBC. And my parents didn't know I'd left the house. And I was there for a day and a half and I was fourteen.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  See, this is where you were so different to me though. Cause at fourteen years of age, I was still watching cartoons that were probably good for eight year olds. You know, I was not a smart, worldly wise kid at fourteen who would have taken myself to London to go on the apprentice and try and be on there. I was a really super late developer, but I think what I had, similar to you, was not just a genuine sort of work ethic from my parents. But genuine rock solid foundations to start my life from. And it's hard to even say exactly what they are. But we talk about in my family about giving your kids roots and wings.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  And it's about getting that balance right with giving your kids roots so they know that whenever there is a problem. I mean, I often say to my kids, whatever happened, they're only little, they're four and seven, but one of the phrases I like to sort of instill in them is, listen, I'll always leave a light on. In other words, wherever you go, whatever life does for you, however far away you are from home, there's a light on here and you you'll get back here if you look for that and you and you come and find it. And I had that from my parents at a really young age, that feeling that I've got my roots here. And I think once you've got that, then then it's possible to extend your wings and to go, right, I reckon I'm brave enough. Cause it's quite tentative little steps when you're in your teens, right? I'm brave enough to go to London and do an apprentice audition, cause.

• 11:56Steven Bartlett?

  I can go.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  I know I can come home and now I've got my roots there. I know there's a light on for me.

• 12:00Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  And that's, I think that's absolutely vital.

• 12:02Steven Bartlett?

  Do you feel successful?

• 12:05Speaker 01

  No, not really. Um, I don't feel successful. And this is something that I try and explain to a lot of people. You know, when you say, what do people think of you? And I say, oh, I think they probably think I'm smug or whatever. I think that people assume that if you've done the things that I've done or the things that you've done, that it feels different, right? I feel like the same kid that grew up in Stoke Holy Cross, a little village on the outskirts of Norwich. I feel no different. I haven't had a buzz as exciting as when in nineteen, mm, two thousand and one, I bought an MGF sports car.

• 12:38Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  I paid nine thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds for it and I bought it from an old man in a, in Colchester. And I remember him still to this day, turning on the light switch in his garage and the light going, flicking on. And there's this green MG car. I was on children's BBC at the time and it was the first thing I'd ever really bought for myself. Despite everything that's happened since, I've never had that feeling of wow, that is a real sense of achievement. And it's almost like the longer it goes on, it's almost goes the other way. Have you, have you ever seen Hamilton in the West End?

• 13:09Steven Bartlett?

  Um, three times.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  I've seen it twice. It's the greatest musical ever. And you know the song, there's a million things I haven't done.

• 13:14Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  It's almost like the more I do and the more I see, the more I realise what I haven't achieved. So I was watching Miss Americana the other day on Netflix and I, and I think my wife was watching it thinking, oh, this is great. This is nice. And I'm watching it thinking, shit, man. How have I not been as successful as that? I need, how do I get there? What do I do? And that's, I suppose, why I love my job. I love conversations like this. Because I think that ev- you know, everyone can, can give you that little bit of information about what they've done in their life. And, and that's why I like sitting with, you know, high achieving sports people. Because all I care about is that, that high achieving mindset that they've had.

• 13:54Steven Bartlett?

  Has it ever been somewhat anticlimactic things you've achieved? Because, because they didn't, you expected them to feel like euphoria and, and like a finish line or a mountain top, but they, they didn't quite feel that way. So. It felt somewhat anticlimactic.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I what I would say is I get a real buzz out of doing my job. I really love being a TV presenter. I really like the the mental challenge of hearing seven or eight voices in my ear while I'm at a big sports event with sixty or seventy thousand people and I'm trying to navigate through and get us out the other side and get the best out of the pundits and come off air at the exact second. I love the challenge of that and I really enjoy the journey. But I don't think that I've ever, I think part of the problem is I don't feel like I've got to where I'm going yet. And so therefore I've never had that moment of euphoria where I think, oh my goodness, I've done it. This is amazing. This is me.

• 14:50Steven Bartlett?

  Doesn't that concern you to some degree? Because you, it sounds like that's a place you will never arrive at.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Possibly, but I am still enjoying the journey on the way. I don't feel I've had my moment yet and I don't feel I've had that moment where I go, yes, that was wonderful. But I absolutely live with the mantra of savour it. Every single minute of every day, um, I try and make the most of it, you know?

• 15:15Steven Bartlett?

  If I told you that there was going to come a day in a week where your, all your, all your ambitions were gonna suddenly become accomplished. And you were gonna, you were gonna, everything you wanted to do was gonna be achieved in about a week's time.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:27Steven Bartlett?

  How, how does that make you feel?

• 15:29Speaker 01

  A bit, little bit scared.

• 15:31Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  I think. And I suppose immediately my mind goes, yeah, but I'd get that and then it would be the next thing then.

• 15:36Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  And it's almost like a kind of mindset of having, having no, no barriers or no ceiling really. And I think some people look at me as the guy who's on the telly with no, no knowledge of um, the sort of charitable philanthropic stuff I like doing or of the production company that I've set up. And those are really important because I think those show that as you get older, like life changes and, and almost without you knowing. Like if we'd have had a conversation ten years ago. Um, when I'd just done Formula One for a year and I'd just come off the back of seven or eight years on kids TV. And you'd have asked me what really matters to you, I would have said being a TV presenter. Like, I was obsessed with being a TV presenter, being a good TV presenter, but.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Still looking at if we were presenting a show together, well, who's talking the most and. Who gets the first line? Who says hello? Do you say hello every show? Am I saying hello? If you're gonna say goodbye, am I gonna shout bye bye at the very end? It was, it was like that. It was like a battle. It was like a race. It was like, you know, I, I need to show that I'm a TV presenter and I've got to.

• 16:39Steven Bartlett?

  Prove yourself, man.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  I feel like I've now reached a point where. I'm really not that bothered about being a TV presenter. I love the job. I'm really proud to do it. But I, I feel like of my mind has been open to the fact there's so much more there. I used to think being a TV presenter was the number one job in TV. And that was the main one. And that was like you were the top of the pyramid. And in some ways you are, you know, when I go on air for a game on BT Sport. There's two or three hundred people working there. BT have paid eleven million quid for the privilege of that one game.

• 17:12Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  And you're the person that goes, hi, welcome.

• 17:15Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  You don't really wanna mess your words up at that point, because it's a bit embarrassing. But as I've gone through, I've realised that actually. You're just one of the cogs in a really big wheel.

• 17:25Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  And what I love about having set up the production company that I have is that. Being on like a board of directors is so exciting because you see this great overview of a business and you get a. And you'll feel this as well with social training, all the other things you're doing. You get this sense of the. You're not just dealing with your little part of your job. You're driving on a whole business, a whole group of people. And when I first started in telly, people used to help me out and do things for me like. You know, they give me a presenting job and they would be really buzzing for me. And I'd look at them thinking, why are you, why are you excited? Because you've given me a great opportunity. I don't, I didn't see it. I didn't understand it. Now. I get, you know, you talk about have I've had that moment of woo, I've done it.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  I get a million times more of a buzz from watching other people do well and standing back like a sort of proud dad than I do. My own stuff, you know, my ambition has kind of become lifting everybody up and trying to make the whole. Not the whole world, because I can't control that, but my own little space in this world as good as it can be for every single person in it.

• 18:33Steven Bartlett?

  It's really weird, um, really weird phenomenon that seems to take place in successful people's lives where the first portion of their life, they're focused on being selfish.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:41Steven Bartlett?

  Because selfishness seems to do something for them and then it seems that they undergo some kind of transition where they realise that being selfless is is actually the most selfish thing that they can do. So it's you being selfless that's actually doing the most for you. And it's still you being selfish, but it's for.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a really good way of looking at it.

• 19:01Steven Bartlett?

  Different way.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  I don't know when the change happened though. I don't know when that moment came where I didn't really care about my own personal achievement and it became about the bigger.

• 19:08Steven Bartlett?

  Is it not when you you you ticked the box for yourself and some of the validation that you were seeking or the the goals that the the the fin- it could be the financial freedom that you were seeking. And you thought, you know, I can get nothing more out of me taking another step forward. If I if I get another job, it's really not going to move me in any way. If I get another thousand pounds, whatever, it's not going to move me in any way.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:27Steven Bartlett?

  And then that becomes almost like a full box. It's like, and this is what you see with these billionaires, you know, they start giving ten billion to. The environment like Bezos did this week and going to the moon and it's like.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Why is that? Is that because they're searching for the next thing? Are they looking for a big buzz or is it because the world is big, the world's become more than about them?

• 19:48Steven Bartlett?

  It's it's it's, I think they've filled like another Lamborghini is not going to move them in any way, in any way, but they need to be moved in some way. And so you go in search of what can give you that. And it's a, I completely resonate with the feeling that. In fact, the most enjoyable thing for me, I said on my podcast, I think last week or the week before was buying my mum new teeth. Was because so she could smile was like, I was really buzzing and then giving people jobs at social chain and watching them develop is like. Seems like, you know, that's much more than buying another Louis Vuitton bag for me.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:20Steven Bartlett?

  On the screen, you have to be a certain way.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 20:22Steven Bartlett?

  Right? You have to adopt, I'm presuming, a certain personality to some degree. You're quite lucky, actually, because you can be yourself.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  You need to, yeah, I'm a firm believer that to be a good, in fact, anything you do.

• 20:33Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  If you're playing a role, it is not going to last, man. Authenticity is the most important thing, and it doesn't matter whether you're the CEO of social chain or you're standing hosting a game of football. If you're trying to be a CEO.

• 20:45Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  It is going to fall apart. If you're trying to be what you think a TV presenter should be, again, it's going to fall apart. Authenticity is absolutely the right thing. And I suppose all I would say is, when you're a TV presenter, you are you, just twenty percent more.

• 21:01Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  So if I'm on the telly now and I'm asking you a question, I probably wouldn't talk like this. I'd be like, right, Stephen, let's talk about, you know, your business and how it's, you know, it's still me and it's still what I'm thinking, but it just, you just lift it a little, you know?

• 21:14Steven Bartlett?

  Sure, for delivery.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  You think so? Yeah, just to, you've got to engage people.

• 21:17Steven Bartlett?

  People still look at people on TV, though, in many respects, as they did with Caroline Flack.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 21:22Steven Bartlett?

  And they, they assume, because of your success and because of your, you know, you've got money, you've got your own business, now you've got your own production company, um, you must be completely happy. You must be.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm sure that, but I think it's like every other walk of life. There are people who are completely happy where they are. And there will be people who are not TV presenters who are completely happy, and there were people who are TV presenters who are completely happy. But I also think there was another type of person where almost the more you get, the more difficult it can become. Um, and this is a sad, sad story, the whole Caroline Flack situation. You know, my experience is obviously completely different to hers, but I would certainly say that the single biggest source of stress in my entire life is social media.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  I find it a really, really stressful experience the whole time. And I'm kind of jealous of you because I look at you and I think you have such a great relationship with it. You, from the outside, it looks to me like you totally understand it, you can. Navigate your way through, you know the right thing to say and when and the right thing to post and when and. I feel like every time I go on there, I'm probably gonna fuck it up a bit and maybe get a bit of criticism and kind of hope for the best. I just feel like I don't really understand it, you know.

• 22:43Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  And and I think the, you know, the Caroline Flack story is is a really, really stark example of. How I think all of us have got a real, it comes back to the same bloody thing of responsibility because there are people. Who are putting stuff out there on social media about Caroline. Um, and not really about her, about the world we live in, saying you've got to be nicer, you've got to be better, you've got to be kind to people. And then at the same time, they're diving in and attacking someone else who they don't think is being kind. And I know that they think they're helping.

• 23:17Steven Bartlett?

  It's yeah.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  But they're adding to the bile and they're adding to the vitriol and, you know, people have to look at their own actions, right? Have you gone on to social media in the last couple of weeks criticised? The press and social media users and the world that we live in for being unkind and cruel. And then two minutes later, you've gone on to a website um that peddles news about celebrities and gossip. Or have you gone and bought a gossip magazine? Have you basically fed the monster, right? Because a lot of this stuff is supply and demand.

• 23:52Steven Bartlett?

  Um hum.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  And if we stop demanding that we wanna know everything about celebrities, lifestyles and what goes on. Then the, then I guess the supply will eventually end as well. So don't look at the media and blame the media. In this particular case, don't look at the CPS and blame them. Don't look at people who are on social media and blame them. We all have a responsibility to alter the way this goes. And the only thing that you can really control, instead of going on to social media and yelling at everyone else to be better. The only thing we can really all control is the way that we use the world and the way that we talk. And if you just go on social media and be positive, if you just read articles or absorb media. That is moving the world forwards in a positive way and not a negative way, then I think you're doing your bit, you know.

• 24:38Steven Bartlett?

  You talked a lot about your own struggles. You got to a point where you were suicidal and a few years back now. Was the cause of that in your mind related to criticism in social media or was it?

• 24:49Speaker 01

  No, no, it was a pre, this was pre-social media really.

• 24:53Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think this, I think I went through a period that perhaps a lot of young men go through, right? Where things just feel a little bit overwhelming and they're not sure how to deal with it. And, you know, I actually, I never contemplated suicide. Because my, my grandma had committed suicide. So I'd seen the absolute first-hand stark effect of what happens when a member of your family kills themselves. And how long it took my dad, who's her son, to recover from that. And there was no way that, that I was ever gonna do that. Because it just wasn't an option for me, having seen what I'd seen. So the only option for me was to do what I've always done in my life and just talk. And I'm really glad I did. And I think that

• 25:37Speaker 01

  that's what made the big difference for me. But what, what this was, and I remember, I can almost remember the day, like, I moved into a flat in East London, just got a job on Children's BBC. And you would think, again, oh, perfect, man, you're twenty-two, twenty-three, you're on kids TV. You're for the first time in your life, you're earning money, you've just got a flat, you moved into London. But I remember my parents driving off down the road, watching them go. And this sort of like sinking feeling, it was like a sort of a volcano erupting or something like that. And I thought, I can't deal with this. And I remember wanting to ring them and cry on the phone and say, can you come back and get me and take me back to Norwich, please? And I think that that just created a sort of, an imbalance really in my brain for a period of time.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  And I was really lucky that I had them there. And I spoke to them and I, I mean, I went to the GP who said, well, maybe you're in the wrong job. Maybe you can't deal with the pressure. And I remember just thinking, that's totally not what this is about. But, you know, I'm just going through a, a period of sort of, I don't know whether it was introspection or just my brain maturing or, or do, it was just going through a sort of strange episode, basically. And by talking and sharing with people, and I told my wa, uh, my girlfriend at the time, my wife now, exactly what I was feeling and when, which was like. Quite scary to do.

• 26:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, especially then.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Especially then, yeah.

• 26:59Steven Bartlett?

  It's different.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I didn't speak to people at work. I didn't do that. I didn't go into work and talk to people about it there. Um, but I certainly, my, my family and my wife absolutely were well aware of it, yeah. Um, and in a strange way, I now, I now I'm kind of glad I went through that period. And my message to anyone who's in a, in a similar place is not only is talking absolutely the answer. And I'm not the person to cure them, but I can tell you what made the change for me. And it was the day that I accepted I might have these feelings. And they might come and go my whole life. And if they come, it's a trick. It's just my brain playing a trick, making me feel something that isn't real.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  And I need to stop believing something that is not there, that's in my head. And use the evidence in front of my own eyes. And that is such a difficult thing to do. But as soon as I accepted it was a trick and it was like my brain trying to con me. And your brain is a very powerful tool. It's, it kind of melted away. It was the acceptance that made it go strangely.

• 28:09Steven Bartlett?

  The next point in my diary this week is about the podcast sponsor, which is Boost by Facebook. They are a dedicated one stop shop for entrepreneurs, for CEOs, for small businesses, job seekers, and anybody with ambition that's looking to thrive in this digital economy. They launched with the aim of creating a place where all of us can understand this new world of digital and social. It can be incredibly intimidating. My mum, I was talking to her about Boost with Facebook the other day. She doesn't know how to use a phone. She doesn't know how to type and she's trying to run a business in two thousand and twenty and compete against people that do. Boost is a place for people like her, where she can learn more about the digital economy, about features and skills and training and all of the things that matter.

• 28:51Steven Bartlett?

  The things that might level the playing field for her as someone that doesn't know about this new world that we live in. You can learn more about this at facebook.com/boostwithfacebookUK. Um, and if you do check it out, drop me a message and let me know how you find it. I always pop on there every now and then to, to, to try and make sure I'm staying ahead of the curve. But yeah, do let me know how you find it. And with the with the pressure of TV, I mean, it's something that I can't quite imagine. Um, you say that I've got this like personal way with social media. I understand how the thing works.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:22Steven Bartlett?

  But even me, even with all the books I've read and everything I've studied and, you know, all the advice I've given. Reading something on social media, which is particularly personal or particularly untrue and personal.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:33Steven Bartlett?

  Especially if you read something that's particularly untrue and personal and that's going viral about you. It's it's I still haven't figured out how to deal with that perfectly with emotionally.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:45Steven Bartlett?

  You know, because it will still be on my mind for 24 hours, you know, and it'll and it will affect. You can feel it's hard to sleep sometimes, whatever. Um, but you you very much live in that world by putting yourself out in the public eye. So those feelings that you felt when you were 20 something must have been exacerbated. The the big, the I'm guessing, this is me being naive, but have those been exacerbated since because of because of your rise in success and public profile and.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  I think that I think that in terms of being on the telly, I feel totally ease with that now. Like, I don't even get nervous now, no matter what the show is, no matter what the gig is. I'm I'm totally at home in front of a television screen.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  I'm glad that I didn't land a job on Formula One until 2009, when I was almost 30. And I didn't end up getting a Twitter account or Instagram account until, what year was Instagram? What year did it start?

• 30:41Steven Bartlett?

  About 10 years ago now.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think I started F1 in 09. I think in about 2010, I might have got Twitter.

• 30:47Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  And it was, do you remember what it was like then? Really nice. Everyone was like, woo, you're on Twitter. This is amazing. Thanks for sending me a message. I think you're fantastic. And and I suppose the the the big fundamental change in my head, right? Is that I felt when social media first started and Twitter first started, it made me feel like I was a genius, right? Because I was doing F1 at the time and it was on BBC One and we had, you know, six, seven, eight million people watching it. So people would tweet about it a lot and suddenly if we were doing a um, a race and we were on on air. Then the sort of top 10 trending topics were all Formula One related or BBC Formula One related. So Jake Humphrey, Eddie Jordan, David Coulthard, BBC F1.

• 31:31Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  I was the first person on telly to use an iPad rather than a clip. Well, so iPad would trend every week and. If I was wearing like a shirt, you know, Jake's shirt would be like a fourth trending topic. And I was thinking, wow, everything I do like turns to gold. This is amazing. But it was a kind of a heady mix of being on the biggest channel in the UK. And social media having just begun and people at that time being quite, having a very different relationship with it and being really positive with it. And then all, fast forward a few years, and the only thing that I see really about myself on social media is is negative, like, oh, here's Jake Humphrey ruining another football match. Oh, you know, these are just ones I remember from the last week.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Oh, two minutes into the game, um, and I'm already pissed off with Jake Humphrey. Uh, Jake Humphrey is such a smug C word. How does that make you feel, honestly? Um, do you know what? It really did bother me at the beginning. I couldn't work out why I was suddenly getting everything wrong. I was like, oh my goodness, why have I suddenly become the person that nobody wants to watch? Why am I suddenly the person that nobody likes? And I, and you can, you can imagine if you're really young, I'm so glad I didn't get this experience until the last six or seven years. Imagine if you're thirteen or fourteen and you see two or three comments from school friends and you think, oh, why am I the one kid nobody likes? What?

• 32:53Speaker 01

  That is so, so difficult to deal with. And I'm so scared of my kids seeing that and being in that world. And even at the age I was at, at the time, it would have been in my early thirties. Even I was like, wow, why have I suddenly become unpopular? And I suppose it took me quite a long time to realise, and I was really bothered about it then. I hated it and it, and it would play on my mind and and it would ruin entire weekends because I'd read a comment. But then I kind of realised that this is going everyone's way. Nobody is immune to this and it's not about me. It's about for some reason, this innate sort of anger that we seem to have, we seem to live with now on social media that people can't,

• 33:33Speaker 01

  people are constantly waiting, looking for a really random reason to bite back at someone. And I don't know whether it's to make themselves feel better or because. I don't know, Stephen, I don't know why it is, but it almost feels like everyone's just waiting for an attack. And that's why the conversations that have been had in the kind of subsequent days after the death of, you know, Caroline is is a really healthy conversation to have, but it's it's totally pointless unless people actually change the way they they wire their brains when using social media. And I will admit to being similar. Someone will put something up. And I'll be like, oh, I can't remember, oh, I watch like, and I'm thinking, hold on a minute. I would never say that to that person.

• 34:13Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  I would never have that conversation in a room. Why am I, why am I putting it on here?

• 34:18Steven Bartlett?

  You know, I think much of the answer is what we're incentivized to do, we do more of. And if you think about the gearing of algorithms, they incentivize you to be provocative and inflammatory because you get likes, followers and retweets. And that's the that's the currency and the reinforcement of social media. The other thing is there's a real psychological incentive to tearing someone else down because it makes or at least discrediting them in some way. Because then the the kind of mirror shining back on you says that you are.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Knocking people down to make yourself feel big, makes you feel sick.

• 34:48Steven Bartlett?

  There's a there's a quote, one of my favorite quotes when I think about social media, which is misery loves company.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:53Steven Bartlett?

  And it's like, if I'm miserable, I want everyone else to be miserable because then that'll make me feel somewhat validated in my misery or my lack of success or my whatever. So.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  You know, I think it's sad, though.

• 35:05Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  When you talk about people doing things for for likes, right? And we've all fallen in that trap. I will readily admit over the years, I've fallen in that trap at times. It kills creativity, though, doesn't it?

• 35:17Steven Bartlett?

  Yes, it does, because you start.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Because I could do something that I'm really proud of that I think is fantastic, right? And I put it up on my Instagram or whatever, and it will get forty five likes and two comments. And I'll be like, oh, that must have been crap. Whereas I can put something else up, which is maybe inflammatory or it maybe is a cliche or maybe it's just. Stealing a quote from, you know, someone from two hundred years ago and putting it on my Instagram and saying, hey, guys, look at this amazing quote and it gets six hundred likes or whatever, which would be a good number. Well, what's the, what's the more creative thing to do to just be you or to, or to do stuff solely because you know it has an impact? And I was talking to you before we started recording about Bob Iger, the CEO of Disney, and you need to read the book, right?

• 36:01Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  But in the book, he talks about the fact that one of his kind of um golden rules to being a successful CEO is to have absolute rock solid belief and to, to totally trust your instincts and to go with it.

• 36:16Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Not to try and give an answer that you think people want to hear or try and do something that you think will be well received.

• 36:22Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Just be you. And it's all, he describes it, I think he describes it almost as like a secret superpower. And I really love that. And that is one of the things I want to live by, because if I can, if I can just be totally honest and be totally me and never do something, because actually, when I've got myself in a muddle, it's because I've done something for an ulterior, ulterior reason, rather than just go, no, this is what I think and I really believe in what I, in what I'm saying here. So you can either like it or not, but I believe it. If you can do that, it's a really healthy place to get to.

• 36:53Steven Bartlett?

  I completely agree. Like I was, as you were saying that, I was thinking, you know, the one thing that nearly cost me my career in the last five years was this couple of, a couple of months where I, for whatever reason, which I won't go into, I stopped listening to what I thought was true, my conviction, and I put the certain very important decisions in the hands of other people. And it took me about three months to realise that I nearly ruined everything I've spent the last fi- five, six years working for, because I knew the answer, but I didn't speak up because of a bunch of factors. And it was, wasn't until I spoke up and said, everything we've done in this period is incorrect, and let's go my way, that everything went perfectly.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 37:38Steven Bartlett?

  And it's, and it's exactly what you described. It was

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:40Steven Bartlett?

  The one time in the last five years, for this short period that I let go of my conviction. You mentioned Harriet.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 37:46Steven Bartlett?

  Your wife.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  My wife, yeah.

• 37:48Steven Bartlett?

  What's it like working with, because she works at Whisper Group, right? Your production company?

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:52Steven Bartlett?

  What's it like working with your wife?

• 37:54Speaker 01

  It's um.

• 37:56Steven Bartlett?

  Is she here?

• 37:57Speaker 01

  No, no, she's not. It's incredible. I mean, you know, to be honest, in recent times, she's taken much more of a backward step because we've got two little kids. It almost, it was kind of more of a thrill, right? Because when Whisper first started and we now have about eighty or ninety staff. We've just announced recently that Sony have just purchased twenty five percent of the business. So that's, the aim is to work with them to try and take the business global. When we first started, it was my wife and our current CEO, Sunil Patel, working together in the back bedroom of our house.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  And it worked well, actually. We got on really well and it went, it went okay. I know it doesn't always happen for some people, but the best thing was that we all, and you might have felt this when you started Social Chain, we felt like we were just like kids, like having a go and seeing where it went to. And I love the fact that we went on that journey together and she was part of it right from day one. And, and this was something that we built together. That's really important to me.

• 38:59Steven Bartlett?

  And people don't typically think of you as an entrepreneur.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 39:03Steven Bartlett?

  Think of you as a TV personality, a TV presenter, whatever it might be. So tell me what it's been like being an entrepreneur.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Been the most rewarding feeling in the world. And I spoke about this on my Instagram a little while ago. It's all come about, right? Because before I started working in Formula One, I thought that there was a secret that you or I didn't know. But the billionaires and the millionaires and the entrepreneurs and the CEOs and the successful people all knew this secret, right? And then I got into Formula One and it was the first time I'd been around really high achieving people and I was really, really keen. And I said this to you before, my, why I love doing my job in sports broadcasting is about being with high achieving individuals. I'm not really a total bother who wins or loses a race or a game of football. I don't care. I love people pushing themselves to the limit to be successful, right?

• 39:55Speaker 01

  So I got into Formula One and I started saying to Eddie Jordan, who set up the Jordan Formula One team and, you know, his wife packed vegetables to earn the extra money to keep the race team alive until they were successful. I said, what was the secret? And then I spoke with Ron Dennis, who set up the McLaren Formula One team, one of the most famous teams to ever race in Formula One. I said, what was the secret? And I remember talking to Lewis Hamilton and saying to him, you know, you've ended up as one of the greatest Formula One drivers the world's ever seen. What was your secret?

• 40:20Steven Bartlett?

  Tell me, Jake, what's the secret?

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Hmm, I just kind of did it. And I was like, what? That is massively disappointing. Because I was expecting this great revelation. And I was really like, oh, is that it? And then I thought on that for a bit and I thought, hold on a minute. Surely that's the best answer I could have ever wanted because it means it's open to me. So I'm just gonna do it. I'm gonna go for this. So I spoke with Sunil. And I said, look, why don't we just do our own thing? You're a great producer. We'll go and do this together. I, you know, all the Formula One teams and sponsors know me from being a presenter. Let's go and meet them all and try and build a business producing content for Formula One teams, not knowing it would ever grow

• 40:59Speaker 01

  to the size that it does. You know, we now produce more highlights for terrestrial broadcasters in the UK of sports content than anybody else. You know, the business is, we're probably the third biggest sports production company in the country now. And it just started out with the two of us going and having a couple of meetings. But it was just because we did it. And I suppose the one thing I would love people to take away from listening to this today is it does not matter what it is. Whether it is setting up social chain, setting up the Whisper Group, setting up a company that makes lovely gourmet sweets like the conversation you had recently. Go and do it. Just go and do it because the mo- don't wait for the motivation to come. Do the action and that's where the motivation comes from. And then you're on this roller coaster and my God, it's an exciting ride.

• 41:43Steven Bartlett?

  I can hear people listening to this, Jake, and they're saying, but you know, I just need to make the the perfect plan and I've been, you know, I'm just need to, I need, I need to find the the the right business. I need to make, this needs to be perfect. The the timing, I'm very busy at work. I'm just done this. I, I need to, I need to be financially, I don't have any money, Jake.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  I know all of those and I get a lot of that back to me on social media when I put this stuff out there. There is never a right time to do it. But the biggest mistake you can make in life is not doing it at all. I'm not saying it's going to be a success. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's guaranteed. But I am saying the biggest regret you have is if you, if in thirty years' time you think, oh, I wish I'd done that. And the world is full of people who say, I wish I'd done that. Oh, I had that idea, but I didn't do it. I could have been a millionaire, but I didn't do. Just give it a go. You, the only way you will know is by giving it a go. And if you do, if you really believe in what you're thinking, if you've got loads of passion, if you've got, if you get a few lucky breaks along the way, then it absolutely, it

• 42:42Speaker 01

  absolutely will work for you. But, you know, take the responsibility. It comes back to that same point I made at the beginning of this conversation. Take the responsibility. Give it a go. If you have to work double, just do it. Be responsible. Try it.

• 42:57Steven Bartlett?

  You were involved in a break.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:59Steven Bartlett?

  The charity, if you're a patron.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:01Steven Bartlett?

  What's, what, what work are you doing there? And tell me a little bit about your more philanthropic endeavours.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  So it's a really sort of important thing for me, um, doing various charity initiatives and trying to, trying to make a difference where I can. So I'm on the board of trustees for the Community Sport Foundation, which is a charity in Norwich that uses sport to change people's lives. Because through the work that I've done as a sports presenter, I really believe you can improve people's lives through sport. I've been a patron of Break for a decade, which is, again, a children's charity that provides services to young people that is, they're just not being provided elsewhere. There isn't the money to do what Break does, which is provide respite care, take families on holiday. Um, they run children's centres and children's homes. Sometimes they have this thing called Families House. And sometimes the only safe place for a young

• 43:47Speaker 01

  person to be with their mum and dad is at Break's Families House, which is incredibly sad, isn't it? Um, and I'm also a vice president of Click Sergeant, which is, um, the children's leukemia and cancer charity. And my wife and I put on a yearly event and we've, we've raised a million pounds for them in the last four years at a yearly event that we do. That is, that is probably what I'm more proud of than any. Anything else that I've done actually over the years. And I think it comes from my dad. He was a charity worker. When we were growing up, we lived in an old people's home because we couldn't find a house. And just to see my dad at work, looking after those people. We we couldn't walk down the road without my dad stopping and talking to someone who's homeless, giving them his card, giving them some advice, telling them where they can go.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  And that, having kindness above everything else, absolutely came from my dad. And I suppose. You know, I don't do it because I want people to go, oh, he's so great. He does loads for charity, such a nice bloke. But that is probably an area where I do get frustrated with the whole social media thing where people go, he's just a guy on the telly. Making as much money as he can and whatever. That's really not me. You know, I feel really, really lucky. That I found a job that I love, being a TV presenter. I feel really lucky that I actually find it easy. But the best thing it's done for me is it's it's given me opportunities. To do all of this charity work and to use my profile and to use my contacts to to try and improve the lives of other people. That is absolutely more important to me than anything else.

• 45:15Steven Bartlett?

  I I do not completely believe you.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Well, do you know what? As I was saying, I'm sure he's heard this loads of times because it does sound like bullshit.

• 45:22Steven Bartlett?

  No.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? It does sound like, oh, he is trotting out the same. Well, the most important thing for me is to help other people, but.

• 45:28Steven Bartlett?

  In my mind. It's funny because when you meet, when you meet someone, you can, it's. You know, it doesn't take you long, especially when we have conversations like this to really know who the person is. And to know how much of it is an act. You can even tell by someone's body language how much they are per se trying.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Really?

• 45:42Steven Bartlett?

  Of course, because you're sat like this, you're super relaxed and you're talking without thinking, right? And that's how I know what you're saying is so utterly authentic. But even off camera, you've been so utterly authentic. And I, and I think, um. You know, if people, people have any question of your character, then they, um, then they are quite simply quite wrong, you know, and I've only known you for a couple of hours. Just to wrap up then, I have a game I play, which you might have heard before, which is the old dinner party game, which gives me an insight into who your idols are, really. That's why I asked the question. We're at a table, six seats. I'm in one of them, you're in the other. Um, there's four empty seats, dead or alive.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  If you've listened to this podcast, you should have the answer. Everybody takes like thirty five minutes to think of names. Okay, here we go. This is easy for me. This is easy for me. Um, the first would be my grandpa. Why? Uh, because he died too young for me to really talk to him about the life that he lived. I really wanted to be a policeman when I was younger. So I applied to be a special constable while I was working at Rapture TV in Norwich, but I'm colourblind, so I got told no. In fact, this wouldn't happen now, but when I was six, I had a colour blindness test at primary school and they gave me a piece of paper with a list of jobs I can't do. Police officer was on there and I went home crying and it took me weeks to recover from that. So my grandpa would absolutely be there. Um, I've got his war medals at home. He was a police officer. He was a soldier. Um.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  He's an amazing, gentle, quiet bloke, but never spoke of the life that he lived. In fact, it was only after he died that my mum told me that he's he'd had a first wife who died of cancer and he'd remarried my granny and then had my mum and it, I think, man, I never even had that that conversation with my, with my own grandpa. So he would absolutely be on that list. Um. The second one would be Jeremy Goss. Why? Who scored the most famous goal in the history of Norwich City. Uh, it was against Bayern Munich. Um, it was in the UEFA Cup in nineteen ninety-three and basically Norwich were this little minnow team that were never going to do anything special against Bayern Munich. And he managed to put the ball in the back of the net. So that's my second one. My third one.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  Um, and I feel like a slight fraud for doing this because if you'd have asked me this exact conversation a month ago, I would not have said this guy. But I absolutely would have Bob Iger on that list because the book that he's just written called Ride of a Lifetime about. And what I love about it is that he talks about working right at the bottom of a business and learning about people along the way. He talks about the fact that you can be a really good person and be really successful and the fact and what he's noticed over the years is people think they're mutually exclusive. You can either be successful or good. You actually can be good and successful, which I think is such a strong message to pass on to people. Um. And the book is just amazing and it's an incredible story. And this is a guy who sat down with George Lucas and purchased Lucasfilm.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  This is a guy who sat down with Steve Jobs and bought Pixar from Apple. Like the conversations he's had are unbelievable. Um, and then the final one uh will be someone else who's sadly not with us, which will be Freddie Mercury because Queen is my most favourite band of all time. He was the most incredible entertainer, remarkable life, remarkable story, and he would sing to us at the end of dinner.

• 48:46Steven Bartlett?

  What would we eat?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  We would, what would we, we eat my mum's cooking because it is absolutely exceptional.

• 48:54Steven Bartlett?

  We'll pull up a seventh chair for that.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, all right then, we'll let her join in. She can hang out with her dad again.

• 48:59Steven Bartlett?

  Amazing. Um, thank you so much Jake for your time today. You're an incredible character, an incredible, incredible character. And I hope one day that I can, um, I can read your book, your, uh, uh, as it relates to performance and, and all these things. And your podcast is coming out very shortly.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm creating a podcast called High Performance with, um, a man called Damon Hughes, who is an author and he's a professor. He specializes in high performance cultures in sports teams. So we're not just talking to sports people, we'll be talking to you on High Performance about, about high performance and how you live a high performance lifestyle.

• 49:33Steven Bartlett?

  I can't wait. I'm really, really excited for that. And I wanted to thank you very, really, really sincerely for, for, for coming and doing this today. Cause I know how busy you are and you're someone that, you know, has brought me a ton of joy in my life, watching TV shows and bringing context to the sports that I'm watching. So it, it feels like a little bit of a fanboy moment for me for sure. And you're an incredible guy in a, in person, just as you are on TV. So thank you so much.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  And I'll throw the love straight back at you. You know that you host my favorite podcast and I think the messages that you put out there, um, with how busy you are to keep on doing it. And I know why you do it. You do it because you, you, you want to connect with people as much as possible. And I know that most people in your position move away from connecting with people because they're too busy and everything becomes about them and it becomes selfish again.

• 50:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  I love the fact that you've been successful and you've kept hold of the selfless side.

• 50:19Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you, mate. Appreciate it. Thanks.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Thanks, mate.