Queer Eye Star Opens Up About Hitting Rock Bottom: Jonathan Van Ness

In this new episode Steven sits down with hairdresser, television personality, and ‘Queer Eye’s’ grooming expert, Jonathan Van Ness. Jonathan began his career as a hairdresser, however in 2013 while giving a haircut he captured the attention of a creator for the comedy video website, ‘Funny Or Die’. This was the start of Jonathan’s hit ‘Gay of Thrones’ web series which was nominated three times for the Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Short Form Variety Series. In 2018, Jonathan was catapulted into fame as the grooming expert in the Netflix series ‘Queer Eye’. Since 2015, he has hosted a weekly podcast, ’Getting Curious with Jonathan Van Ness’, and in 2019 he released his New York Times best-selling memoir, ‘Over the Top: A Raw Journey to Self-Love’. In 2021, Jonathan launched ‘JVN Hair’, a gender inclusive, sustainable, cruelty-free haircare brand. In this conversation Jonathan and Steven discuss topics, such as: Jonathan’s intense childhood His drug and sex addiction His journey into sex work and how he lost control of his life The challenges he has faced with rapid fame The increasing transphobia and attack on trans people in the US You can purchase all of Jonathan’s ‘JVN’ hair products, here: https://bit.ly/3CyBBdK Follow Jonathan: Instagram: https://bit.ly/3CzC6UG YouTube: https://bit.ly/3pcXdZR TikTok: https://bit.ly/3JhaOX9 Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I think it's actually still kind of hard for me to talk about, but I am down to go there. Your square chin makes me feel safe.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Jonathan Van Ness! Comedian and beauty stylist you know from Queer Eye. What's our mission, Henny?

• 0:15Speaker 00

  The conversation starts on a cornfield in rural Illinois. Being a queer, feminine child is hard. There was sexual abuse and there was bullying, but all that trauma came back in the most self-destructive era. Had my face in a plate of coke, then I discovered sex work. I got HIV. I put myself in so many really dangerous situations.

• 0:34Steven Bartlett?

  Someone pulled a gun on you?

• 0:35Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 0:36Steven Bartlett?

  Take me into that moment.

• 0:39Speaker 03

  You start out hairdresser and now your name is on the marquee of Radio City?

• 0:43Steven Bartlett?

  Schedule's been crazy. How are you feeling?

• 0:45Speaker 00

  Grateful and at the same time really frustrated. I just see so much transphobic garbage all over the place. People really think that there's little kids going to school as a boy and coming home as a girl. This is really serious and so this has been a really hard time. And I think being a public figure who is constantly expected to be a ray of **** sunshine, it can be challenging. But why I've been able to get to where I am is like cuz I think I'm resilient. I have been able to sit with a lot of shame and like a lot of heartbreak and still be joyful. Can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma?

• 1:18Speaker 00

  Do I get to ask the question of the next person?

• 1:20Steven Bartlett?

  Yes, and also they'll be turned into cards that people will play with their families and stuff.

• 1:24Speaker 00

  Oh, so it can't be what's the sluttiest thing you've ever done?

• 1:28Steven Bartlett?

  Jonathan Van Ness's story is an impossible story. Coming from a place of sexual abuse, sex work, depression and despair, to becoming the leader in his industry. The story you're about to hear is not only hilarious because that is what Jonathan is, but it's also the evidence that you might need that passion and resilience will take you to the place that you want to go to. This conversation's gonna make you laugh. It's one of the more real conversations I've ever had with anyone on this podcast because Jonathan doesn't hold back. His story is heart-wrenching. It is unthinkable.

• 2:07Steven Bartlett?

  And it's incredibly important. Over the last couple of months, there's been this huge rise in the conversation around trans rights. And there's been a huge rise in transphobia. You've probably seen it. Today, I'm going to ask him about that. Where has it come from? What is the truth? And if you're someone like me that feels quite uncomfortable about the narratives we're seeing in the world, what can we do about it? How can we help? It's time to have that uncomfortable conversation.

• 2:45Steven Bartlett?

  Jonathan.

• 2:46Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:47Steven Bartlett?

  Where do we need to begin this conversation to understand you?

• 2:51Speaker 00

  The conversation starts on a cornfield in rural Illinois in the late eighties, darling.

• 3:02Steven Bartlett?

  What happens next?

• 3:03Speaker 00

  Oh, well, I went to school. I come from a broadcasting family and like a family of journalists. I grew up, my mom worked in the local newspaper and advertising and my dad worked in the TV station. So that's kind of where it started. I was born in 1987. I think that was like another really interesting time in queer history and what was to come for the next few years, being that it was like the height of the AIDS crisis. And I think understanding, not understanding that, but being a very queer, effeminate, small child in that time, there was so much like anti-queer vitriol then, which I didn't

• 3:46Speaker 00

  like know that's what it was called, but I felt it. And it's so it's interesting being like this age now and having like this renaissance, not in the Beyonce way of like such anti-queer sentiment.

• 3:57Steven Bartlett?

  You're five years old when your parents separate.

• 4:01Steven Bartlett?

  What's that like for you?

• 4:03Speaker 00

  I actually just had a joke about this in my new set. My first reaction was, like, can I have the ring? Like, my brothers are really devastated. I just was like, all about that diamond. Like, I've always loved jewelry. I was like, oh, my god, that would look great with my geodes. So I didn't really understand, like, any sort of, like, emotional implication from, like, my parents' divorce. Love my dad, love my mom, but I was like, I kind of, I think I was like, maybe too young to fully understand. I do think that it ultimately set me on, like, um, like, my stepdad and I, I, my mom started dating him when I was, like, six. And I write a lot about him in my first book, Over the Top. His name was Steve.

• 4:43Speaker 00

  And so ultimately, he taught me so much about what it is to be a good person, what it is to have integrity, what it is to ask for help. He had been sober for 28 years when he died in 2012. And he was like, and he and my dad are both really important to me. But Steve and my dad, like, were really good, um, you know, role models in my life in a lot of ways. And, but it took me, like, from, like, six to, like, 16 to, like, like Steve. But then I eventually, like, really, you know, loved Steve and appreciated him so much for all the things that he taught me.

• 5:17Speaker 00

  Ah, thank you. Stay out.

• 5:20Steven Bartlett?

  Just for context, the shoulder thing is, uh, do you want to explain, Jonathan?

• 5:23Speaker 00

  Yes, it's like this gorgeous, like, little, like, tube dress, honey. And what it can give you is this, like, turtleneck moment. But that's giving me too much restriction. It is pride. So we need the shoulder out, because it's really like this Izzy Miziaki moment that's like, the shoulder's meant to peek a boo.

• 5:35Steven Bartlett?

  Is that Izzy Miziaki?

• 5:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:37Steven Bartlett?

  Ah, it's beautiful.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  Pretty, right?

• 5:39Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  I don't want to scream in the microphone, I just get so excited talking about dresses.

• 5:43Steven Bartlett?

  So he's just told us to, contingent on this interview was us letting him know, whatever the Izzy Miziaki number just slides a little too high, we've got to remind him to slide it down. So if we say shoulder, that's what we mean. Um. How did you get on with your peers when you were that age? Did you feel like you fit fitted in per se?

• 6:00Speaker 00

  No, no, but I did have some really good friends and some people who I I think I know I I knew really early that friendship was really important. So I always had like some really close friends. But a lot of times, I think there was like, you know, quite a bit of like widespread bullying. But I think that that really hit a fever pitch like more like, you know, like sixth grade, like post sixth grade. Like maybe pre that there was like little murmurings and like a little bit of weirdness. But I I think kids are like so young at that age that they're not really like, or at least in my case, it wasn't like that horrific. Bullying wise, at the time, it was more like post sixth grade, I feel like.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  But I also, it's like so funny. I just noticed this like part of me that's like, like being thirty six and still talking about it like I feel like. Because I have processed so much of it and I've worked so hard on letting go of a lot of that and.

• 6:54Speaker 00

  So like for me, it doesn't really hold a lot of like, like Brene Brown, she talks about like, you know, can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma? And I think in like, I think it's actually still kind of hard for me to talk about. Like I have this like harder part that kind of comes up and is like, oh, like I just don't like going there.

• 7:17Speaker 00

  But I am down to go there. Your square chin makes me feel safe. But yeah, you know what I'm saying?

• 7:22Steven Bartlett?

  Well, you you take me there. You take me to where you want to go because I I am, in my own experience, only black kid in an all white school. I grew up in Devon in the southwest, which is like the countryside. So I remember the feelings of just constant, because it's a small town as well. And you're different, this constant feeling of almost a constant state of fight, like my body was always in fight or flight almost. Just like subtly. And I read I read hints of that in your story, but please do tell me what your experience was.

• 7:50Speaker 00

  No, that totally, that absolutely resonates. I think I also write a lot about like this idea that like, um, like a lot of like joy and like happiness can coexist with grief. And like shame, like these emotions don't necessarily like invalidate each other. So even though I did. Have a lot of hardships and there was abuse and there was bullying and there was a lot of othering. Like, I think that's why I'm still so obsessed with figure skating and gymnastics. Like, when figure skating and gymnastics was on the TV, I was the happiest person of all time. Like, none of the other things mattered. So I think those kind of moments of like escapism, like, were these really healing moments, why even now as an adult, like, those types of things are so exciting for me and I'm just like so into it. Cause it, I think it like, it strikes at like that core memory of like, just being really into something else.

• 8:37Speaker 00

  Which, I'm glad I'm still into that, even though I'm like more into my life now than I was in, obviously. Like, I did get out of there and I did, like, you know, a lot of my dreams came true.

• 8:46Steven Bartlett?

  The escapism, well, in that situation, what were you escaping from?

• 8:50Speaker 00

  Feeling like really, I mean, I was, like I said, a really queer kid in a very like cis het world. So my hometown is like, my family was like quite well known in my hometown and I was really like unabashedly myself. And so there was a lot of like feedback from that as I got older.

• 9:09Speaker 00

  So that, I think that was like a lot of, and I also was, you know, abused. I am a survivor of sexual abuse, so there was like, like I would hear about like other kids and like, you know, whether it was like poverty or like see it on the news, like kids or like even just like kids at school. Like, you know, there's like kids at school who like clearly are going through it and like do not have the access to the resources that you have. But meanwhile, I was like definitely having people call me faggot, definitely being sexually abused. And I remember thinking like, ah, I'm glad I don't have it as bad as like, you know, so it's like, it's interesting how like our perspective like is, like, just so funny. Like, it's like when you're a kid, you just don't have anything to compare it to. But looking back to it on it, I'm like, I think of my little inner child and like all the things that,

• 9:54Speaker 00

  my nickname growing up was Jack, like what he went through and I'm like, oh my god, honey, that was like so intense. You know, like just growing up like there and like and having, yeah, it's intense.

• 10:06Steven Bartlett?

  You've been really open about the incident of sexual abuse that you've experienced and how that had a sort of cascading impact on the rest of your life. Is there a point where you, where someone around you highlights the significance of that to you at that age?

• 10:22Speaker 00

  No, I think that the problem with, um, like sexual abuse is so many, and I, you know, I don't like blame anyone for this, because it's just like what happens, that there's such this like an insistence on like, like, not talking about it. You know, like, like, don't let anyone find out. And I understand that because like you, like, it's like, you just don't want people to find out, like, whether it's like bringing shame on the church, or bringing shame on like, why didn't anyone prevent this? So it's like, it, I don't think it was like, I think we just all wanted to like, just get through it. And I don't think any, like, there's so much shame and stigma tied up in sexual abuse,

• 11:02Speaker 00

  that I think when it happens, you're, but at the same time, like, my mom was really wanted to deal with things like, in a very head-on way, and like, really wanted, it was like therapy, like, we gotta get, like, once she knew, she was like, fuck, like, we gotta, like, but then there was like other forces and like other people and, you know, our lives that were like, I don't think, and whether that was like, church leaders or other people that were like, I don't think that's really, you know, like, what happens if you talk, you really want your kid to be like, you know, so, there, and especially in like small rural spaces. And I think that's part of what makes me so angry when we think about,

• 11:38Speaker 00

  you know, when people would say, you know, that trans people are, you know, groomers or drag queens, or like all this idea that queer people are groomers, like, there is so much sexual abuse in churches, there is so much sexual abuse in rural communities, in urban communities, in all the communities. And when you look at the statistics, most often, it is like a man that you know. It is like a man in the family, a man in the church, a friend of the family. It's someone that you know, it's like not random queer people. And I just think, part of why we have these like fantastical ideas of like these threats to our kids is because of the thing that I was just speaking about, that like, we don't talk about what really happens, because we want to keep it private, and we want to keep things really inside. And so when you're, like, um, when you're...

• 12:23Speaker 00

  Draw like it just it makes it and also it's like this like smoke and mirrors thing when you're saying that it's one thing it's like gaslighting really from this whole other thing which in this case is like the pervasive sexual abuse in churches and you know in families and communities that is just so you know not spoken about and we're over here talking about drag queens and trans people.

• 12:49Steven Bartlett?

  You said though that your mother was very proactive with going to therapy and things like that which is an incredible thing.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, so lucky.

• 12:57Steven Bartlett?

  For the time.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  So lucky.

• 12:59Steven Bartlett?

  Especially because even now that's quite seen as being quite a progressive thing to do.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:04Steven Bartlett?

  But but back then when you're 16 years old for that to be one of the first sort of suggestions to take you to therapy seems to be.

• 13:08Speaker 00

  Honey, I was in therapy when I was five. I remember like when my parents got divorced, I like I remember like being at therapy when I was so little that like I had to like look up at my mom like this like holding her hand. You know what I'm saying like because when they got divorced we went to like family therapy. So like therapy was always very normalized for me and my mom it is just like one of the things I just am so grateful to her for that she like normalized therapy like thank God. I don't think I'd be alive without if she hadn't done that.

• 13:34Steven Bartlett?

  What about if I'd asked that that 16 year old version of you what are you going to do when you're older?

• 13:38Speaker 00

  I always knew I wanted to do hair.

• 13:40Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 13:41Speaker 00

  Like but I think my family was like you need to go to college so I was like maybe I was like I'll be a lawyer or something but then I was like girl you can't be a lawyer you're gonna I love doing hair I think I knew I wanted to do hair.

• 13:49Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah?

• 13:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:51Steven Bartlett?

  I I think about my teenage years and I think I didn't know the impact I use the word formative at the start I didn't know how I'd been formed until I was an adult and I saw like patterns playing out what were the prints sort of that left on you from your earliest years that stayed with you as an adult?

• 14:10Speaker 00

  I think my fur like I went I think one of my big first phases of like wanting to understand more about like like my trauma or like my story it was like Eckhart Tolle and A New Earth and The Power of Now and like 2008 or 9 it was like when Oprah was talking about him and then I was like who's this Eckhart Tolle honey and then I read The Power of Now and A New Earth and I was like. Ego, I don't have an ego. What's he talking about? And I was like, oh, that's like the story that we tell ourselves. I was like, so like my story is that I'm like this like gay kid from this little town. And I was like abused and like this and that. I love cheer and I love the like, really, I'm like the observer of that. Like, I'm not really that.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  I'm like this, like, that was like when I started to learn about like what meditation was and what stillness was. And that really gave me a lot of healing and kind of like clarity. And then I, that didn't last that long because I did eventually get addicted to meth, like not that long after that. So, but thank God I had that introduction to that sort of healing at that time because I was able to come back to it. So that, and then I think, so then my stepdad got really sick, the one I was talking about earlier. Um, Steve, he was diagnosed with cancer in like 2009. And I was really far away. I was like living in LA. They were in Illinois. And I was in a really, um, you know, difficult working situation. I was like in my first serious relationship.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  And then all of those, um, all that trauma manifesting itself was, came back in terms of like, um, my sexual compulsivity. So I'm like in love for the first time and I just like was having such a hard time, like in my first relationship. Like just cheating nonstop and being like, which I talk a lot about in my first book. And so that was when I was like, okay, I really need help. Like, I don't know, like, so I'd had that versatile introduction to healing with like Eckhart, you know, solo 2122. Then Steve gets sick, he ultimately dies. And then it's after that that I'm like, really need help. And that's like when I get into therapy, that's when I, um, start to get into 12 step myself.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  Which I, I think being a non-binary queen, anything that's too much this or that, it's like, so sobriety was like, oh, I just like, I don't want to be totally sober. But I did get a lot of healing there. Um, so I'm kind of a harm reduction queen. But, so all through my twenties, I think, and I, and I don't think that we ever get to a place as much as I wish that we would. Where you're just like, ah, dealt with my trauma. It's like in a box and I never have to look at it again. I never have to deal with it again. And I think it's interesting the ways that your circumstances change. And then your trauma or your, you know, that baggage or your ego as Eckhart refers to it will like manifest itself in different ways. But I hope that we get, or I hope I get better at, um, Like not identifying with the trauma or the ego, like when it's like being a nightmare, even though that's like also a constant struggle.

• 17:05Speaker 00

  Like ask my husband, like where the fuck is my eyeliner?

• 17:08Steven Bartlett?

  You went to university, right?

• 17:11Speaker 00

  For a semester.

• 17:12Steven Bartlett?

  You dropped out like I did. Why did you drop out?

• 17:15Speaker 00

  I got really bad grades and then I got addicted to drugs. And then I realized that I wanted to be a hairdresser. So what was I gonna waste all that time and money for?

• 17:24Steven Bartlett?

  Was university or college, I think they call it in the US, the first time you

• 17:29Steven Bartlett?

  got addicted to drugs? Was that the first time you started to seriously sort of experiment with drugs?

• 17:33Speaker 00

  Hmm. Does weed count?

• 17:37Steven Bartlett?

  Not really.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  Then no. Yes. Yes, then it was. Like I had smoked weed, but that was the first time that I ever did like really intense drugs.

• 17:45Steven Bartlett?

  You were away from home there, right? You were away from this, the small town, the issues of your, your teen years at that point. So what was, um, what was that context and environment like?

• 17:55Speaker 00

  Well, my mom was so right. She was like, honey, you're too young. And I was like, get fucked, I'm leaving. And honey, I was so too young. Like I just immediately just had my face in a plate of coke. Like the first time I saw cocaine, I was like, like the first time I was like, saw like, I was like, that's ecstasy? Give me six. Um, and the next thing I knew, you know, cause like, you like, my parents got me like that, like thing that you get at university, like the little like campus, like card for the food. So they're like, your food's paid for, your dorm's paid for, like you really don't need very much money, honey. Like, so like they, my mom gave me like $300 a month, cause like everything else is paid for, right? Like what else could you fucking need? Like I didn't have to work, like, cause like they did everything, right? Like so cool, right? Like so, but I was like, well, how am I supposed to get all messed up on drugs all the time?

• 18:39Speaker 00

  If I only have $300? Like that math isn't working. So, right? Like, it's like, that's like two days, you know? If you're really going out with your friends. So then I just was like, then I discovered like sex work. And then I was like, oh, next thing I knew, I was like pulling tricks to like, um, get drugs so that I could do more drugs. And then after doing that for a few months, I was like,

• 19:03Speaker 00

  and I dropped out of college like through that. Um, I was like, um.

• 19:08Speaker 00

  Because my mom had cut me off by then. I was like, mommy, I'm so sorry. I'm like literally selling my body. Like, I feel scared. Like, can you just put some money in the checking account? Like, I'll drive the car home. I'll be like, I'll just come, I'll, I'll be back in three days. Can you just, I'm scared. And she was like, Jesus, yes, this is my baby. And so she did that. Poor mom, right? And so she did that. Cutely, though, like, right before that, I found this kitten in the hood of a car, who was my first cat, Bug the first, and honest to God, I write about him too. Like, he really gave me, like, the will to, like, not be a sex worker. And because at first, it was like for funsies for, to just get drugs for partying, right?

• 19:50Speaker 00

  Then, once I got cut off, it was like, no, like, I don't want to go back home and like, show that I fucked up. So I just need to like, figure it out. But like, that was really not where I wanted to be. It wasn't like I was like, doing sex work from a place of empowerment. I was doing it from like, a place of like, deep trauma, like wanting validation, trying to support a drug habit. Like, it was not a good place for like, an 18 year old to be. I was like, it was really like, I put myself in so many really dangerous situations.

• 20:15Steven Bartlett?

  Someone pulled a gun on you, right?

• 20:16Speaker 00

  Uh huh. Yeah, it was really like, really, really dangerous situations. And so, yeah, that was like, I mean, I look back at some of the things that happened and I honestly can't believe that I made it. Because it was really like, so touch and go in a lot of situations. Like, one little thing different and it could have, like, so many situations. But that's true of anyone. But it was really, you know, traumatizing. But so I find this little cat. And I realized when I find this little cat, I was like, I want this, I want to raise this little cat. He was like, this like, little black cat in the hood of this car. And, but that really was like, so super healing for me. And I think that started like, I'm such a little, like, animal parent. I have like, five cats and three dogs now,

• 21:02Speaker 00

  with my husband. And that, I really think it was just like, such a huge, like, turning point. Like, just like falling, like, just falling in love with like, cats and dogs are just like, so healing.

• 21:12Steven Bartlett?

  Finding a little cat in the boot of a car seems to be trivial, but it's not, is it? Because really, what I heard there is, in a moment where you were in a bit of a desperate situation, that cat gave you a reason and a purpose.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, yes. And it has continued to be like, a huge source of like, joy and like, grounding, like, in my life. That is like, really, so not trivial. Like, really, really was a huge turning point.

• 21:37Steven Bartlett?

  So what if you go to hair school?

• 21:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:39Steven Bartlett?

  Where did you go, LA?

• 21:40Speaker 00

  The Evita Institute in Minneapolis.

• 21:42Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, Minneapolis?

• 21:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:44Steven Bartlett?

  And how did that go for you?

• 21:45Speaker 00

  Cute. I got better there. I got better there and then I, um, and then I moved back to Arizona after I finished school. So I only lived there for about a year. Um, in my mind, I felt like my first experience in Arizona, except for I went to college, was like this failure and I really wanted to like go back and do better and like not have it be a failure. And so I moved back and then that was like a really cute time. Like I got to like, I like worked for myself the first time. I had like my own chair at a salon. Um, and that made me kind of feel like responsible for like the first time. And like I turned 21 in that time. And then after a few years of that, I was like, I felt like I couldn't really cut myself out of a paper bag.

• 22:25Speaker 00

  Like I felt like I wasn't a good hairdresser. All I knew how to do was like chunky Kelly Clarkson highlights, like circa like Breakaway 2004. You know what I'm saying?

• 22:32Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:32Speaker 00

  So then I wanted to move to LA and work at a really good salon and have a devil worst product experience. So I did. So then I moved to LA and then that's when I like really like figured out how to do better hair. Cause I got a good job at assisting at a salon. That was really good.

• 22:45Steven Bartlett?

  And how were you doing at that time? How were you doing on a personal level?

• 22:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, like not.

• 22:50Steven Bartlett?

  Twenty two years old.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I think it was, I was, I think I was like handling the move to LA pretty well up until my stepdad got sick. And then it was like, and then, and then like my little like healing era came to like a screeching halt. Also the relationship, it was like falling in love and my stepdad's diagnosis like together. Like, yeah, much, all my trauma got triggered in was bad.

• 23:19Steven Bartlett?

  Was there something in hindsight that you think could have been done to stop the stepdad's illness situation resulting in destructive behavior? Was there, was there, was there therapy needed or a conversation? Or was there, was it a lack of a support network or something that could have kind of caught you in a moment where you were, you were falling without really knowing you were falling?

• 23:40Speaker 00

  No, well, I don't think so cuz I I realized that I was like doing things sexually at that time that like I regretted and like I didn't feel good about myself afterwards and that's how I was kind of like, oh, I think this is like a problem. And then um and that also kind of started happening like right after I met like my like the my first love. And so and I told him about it. I was honest with him. I got help. Um, so he knew. I got a therapist at that time, but like ultimately like I wasn't ready to to deal with it. And so, no, I think that was kind of an interesting lesson of like you can have all the support in the world, but if you're not ready to like sit with your stuff, like it nothing's

• 24:23Speaker 00

  gonna move you. But um, he it wasn't until he left me and Steve died that I and I got HIV that I was like, okay, I really want to like not do this anymore. And that was when I ultimately like was able to get better. But I needed to really, I did it with a lot of support, but I needed to hit rock bottom and then get the support.

• 24:50Steven Bartlett?

  I hear that a lot, you know, I hear this. I remember approaching, um, got a friend who was in the in the public spotlight and I was trying to figure out how I could help them because they clearly were R and R in a difficult situation. So I approached their management and said, what can I do to be a supportive in this situation? Their management said to me, we've been here quite a few times. And in fact, until the person wants to make a change, um, they won't. And often you have to let the person hit rock bottom before change will happen. And I remember at first hearing that being really uncomfortable with that, the idea that you have to kind of let someone get there on their own. And even

• 25:29Steven Bartlett?

  if the route to there is downward first before it's up, it feels really hard to accept, I guess, especially when you love the person. Do you think that's true?

• 25:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. But my sister always said, you know, you like not you like, well, he this is like all 12 step, like well known 12 step phraseology, but like every bottom has a basement. So I can always get worse. And also, like, you don't have to ride the elevator to the bottom. So like not every like, like everyone's rock bottoms like look different. Like, it doesn't mean that you have to like, doesn't mean someone's gonna like bite it necessarily. I mean, they might, but um, some people are just like, ew, I got like a DUI and that was enough.

• 26:08Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 26:10Speaker 00

  Other people are like, you know, everyone's bottom looks different.

• 26:14Steven Bartlett?

  Some people don't survive their bottoms.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:18Steven Bartlett?

  Sex addiction, something we don't talk about enough. We talk about drug addiction, alcohol addiction. We even talk about social media addiction and screen addiction, but having a conversation about sex addiction seems to be harder than all of the aforementioned forms of addiction. I remember having Terry Crews on the podcast when we were in LA and him telling me that he had a porn addiction. And it was just during his life. On the surface, someone might find it hard to understand how something like that can destroy one's life. You, you talk about having a sex addiction and going on a sex addiction course. I believe when you were during that time when you roughly around the LA time. What impact was it having on your life and your relationships?

• 27:01Speaker 00

  Well, it's interesting because I think if, if I'm correct, I think that like sexual sex addiction like is not like a recognized addiction and like the D S D, whatever.

• 27:12Steven Bartlett?

  DSM.

• 27:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, DSM. But it's whereas like, you know, other ones are.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  So the effects I was having on my life was like, obviously I got HIV and but even before that, like I was already like going to meetings and I'd already been to rehab twice before I got HIV. So.

• 27:31Steven Bartlett?

  Like a sex rehab?

• 27:32Speaker 00

  No, they were like, well, one was, one had like a sex, like a sexual compulsivity, like course, like within the program. And then the other one that I went to, I found like an outpatient that, that did that work. So I could like, I went there like, you know, during the day from like this other rehab. I had to be like an, you know, resourceful queen.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  But ultimately it's like a process addiction, you know, whether it's like gambling, food, like sex. It's like, it was like a process addiction. So the way that it was affecting my life was like just, you know, doing things that I regretted. I describe a lot of like disassociated behavior, like this like inability to like just get off, like couldn't get off the phone, couldn't stop cruising. Like I just felt like I wasn't like in control of, like I wasn't in control. Like, so if you were to say like in, you know, in part speaker like I F S, it would like, like that firefighter was like so blended in my driver's seat. Like I couldn't, I couldn't get centered self like into the goddamn car.

• 28:34Steven Bartlett?

  When you say cruising, you mean you were like searching?

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like a queer term for like what like gays do when you're like, yeah, whether it's like you're cruising on Grindr or you're like at a bathhouse or you're like whatever you're doing.

• 28:47Steven Bartlett?

  Can you tell me about that journey? So at some point, you realize that you've got sexual compulsivity. At some point, it becomes a problem in your life and you lose your partner in this case and there's, you know, you realize that you've lost control of that. And then at some point, you get to a stage of healing where you become aware and you understand where the origin of this sexual compulsivity. That third point, understanding the origins of that sexual compulsivity, when was that and how did that happen?

• 29:14Speaker 00

  Well, you know, it's interesting. I think it's, it's, um, that reminds me of this thing that this one guy in rehab said, he said like,

• 29:22Speaker 00

  not knowing why he was an alcoholic is not what made him crazy. It was needing to know why he was an alcoholic is what made him crazy. So I think it's a lot, and that was actually a huge disappointment for me. And I think we put way too much emphasis on like trying to like understand your origin story. Cause like, once I understood my origin story and it was like really clear as day and like I'd done all my work and I'd done like all of this processing and like all of the memories came back and like I already had all the memories, but then like there was just certain things that I was able to connect and like really understand very clearly.

• 29:55Speaker 00

  I was still left with the scarring and I was still left with the patterns. Like I still, once I knew it wasn't like, I was like, ah, well, now I don't want to fuck 20 strangers anymore.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  Like it wasn't like that. Like all of that pattern and all of that, like, you know, feels insecure, wants validation, won't stop till they get the validation. Then they feel insecure again for doing the thing. And then it like, it's just a cycle that like repeats itself all the time. And we talk about that in sexual compulsivity. It's like the trigger and then like the trigger to do the thing. And then you start cruising for the thing and then you do the thing and then the shame from the thing just makes you go right back into it. So it's just this like cycle. So, um,

• 30:35Speaker 00

  Really, it was just like, understanding through so much, like, repetition of hurting myself. Like, there's like, "Oh, I don't really want to do this. I don't feel better after I do this." Like, "I think I'm going to, but then I don't." And, um, so it was really just like through continually, like, really hurting myself, and then going back to therapy, like, falling off the horse, getting back on. Like, and also, like, meth use has a huge part to do with this, for a lot of queer people, at least. And, I mean, there are straight people as well, but I think it's probably like lesser numbers, um, because of like, you know, the whole, like, meth and sex, like, scene, which is, you know, quite prevalent in queer communities. So it was not quite prevalent, but it's like prevalent, it happens. And so, I think once, the further away that I was able to get from meth, the easier it was for me to heal from...

• 31:21Speaker 00

  Because, also, it's like, and I talk a lot about this in my new show, Fun and Slutty, it's like, um, sexuality isn't bad. Like, sexuality is good. Um, expressing our sexuality is good. It's lack of, uh, it's lack of consent, it's abuse, it's manipulation, it's doing things that you regret. Those are the things that are not good. But, you know, decoupling that, and like, kind of understanding that, and understanding, like, "Are you doing this because you have a trauma response? And so you're doing this, or are you doing this because you really, really want to do it?" So there's like a whole, you know, conversation about like sex positivity to be had here, too. And, you know, a lot of people are really opposed to the idea of sexual compulsivity, or sex addiction, because they're like, "That's really not sex positive." And, maybe it's, you know, X, Y, Z, or whatever.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  But for me, I think it's way more important to recognize that, like, in my case, it was, "I didn't feel good, and now I feel better." And I know a lot of people like myself, who were able to like, you know, come more into a space of healing, and more into a space of like, balance, with their, like, sexual self. So, um, but again, just like anything, that's never like, all the way just like done and dusted. Like, you're always in conversation with yourself, and with your trauma, and, and your behavior, and like, how you want to regulate that, or express that. It would also be remiss to say, like, I mean, I, I already had a lot of healing, prior to meeting my husband, and I think that's part of like, why I even, like, met him, you know, universally speaking, anyway, because I had done that work. But having a husband who I can be open with and honest with,

• 32:49Speaker 00

  and who, you know, doesn't judge me for the things that I've been through, and he can, like, create a safe space for, you know, to hold my stuff with me, is really helpful as well.

• 33:00Steven Bartlett?

  I was just chatting to some friends this um this weekend, Friday, about how we I was trying to figure out, because one of my the the people that I was with, the three of them, they're all single, um they're they're seeking not to be single. And I was I was saying to them that I found the right person in my life when I was not necessarily the the completed version of myself, but I had to do a lot of work to even find that jigsaw piece that matched me as a different shaped jigsaw piece. Like, I had to do a lot of work. And I wasn't all the way there, because I do feel like you go on a journey with that partner. But you have to kind of be aiming in the same direction, at least. So I guess my question to you, this is a bit of a tangent, is, do you what do you think about that, about like, the the season where we find the the right

• 33:45Steven Bartlett?

  person? How much work do we have to do on ourselves to be ready when we meet that person?

• 33:53Speaker 00

  Um, there's this other type of therapy that I love called PACT Therapy, which stands for like, the psychobiological approach to couples therapy, which was invented by Dr. Stan Tacken. So he created PACT Therapy. And so he talks about an insecure functioning relationship and a secure functioning relationship. So earlier, when I was speaking about my mom and my stepdad, and I was like, that's secure functioning relationship. My first relationship was an insecure functioning relationship with my first partner. That in conjunction with like my stepdad's illness, and then just being like 24 and 25, out of my window of tolerance, could not handle, firefighters were activated, all fucked up, you know, like my life kind of so that's that. So but Stan says that you can an insecure functioning relationship can turn into a function

• 34:38Speaker 00

  as secure functioning one if both parties want it. If they're both willing to like work on themselves, work on the relationship. And also, Stan says that like, a lot of brokenness or like trauma in oneself can actually really be healed through that sort of like couples therapy. So I don't know if you really have to be like a more full that whole thing of like two fully formed circles need to make the chain. Because like, if you're a fragmented, how are you like, you're gonna make a fuck up. So I think I think we actually it pisses me off when people get too much into that like relational expert stuff, because like, just like we all have our own experience, like every relationship has its own experience. So we can like pull from some like, You know, um, what's that called? Like, uh, like we can pull from some like data of

• 35:23Speaker 00

  or like, but like not real daily, just like oratory, like data of just people talking about it and telling us things. And well, my friend this and my friend that, but like ultimately, I think that like there is, there's like a different path for everyone to find like their relationship and whether or not it starts. And I also think even in my marriage, like I feel like we've had moments that we got married after like six months, like in the middle of a fucking pandemic. Like it was, you know, it was, it was a weird time, you know? Cause we just started saying, I love you and then borders shut down. And then I was like, if we wanna keep, I don't know if I can just not get fucked by you for like years and like a respiratory pandemic. Like I like, you know, like I think I need you to like get over here, but he was British and I'm American. And so we just were like, let's see what happens. And then

• 36:06Speaker 00

  once you get to the end of that SDA visa or whatever, it's like, you either gotta get married. And so it wasn't the way I think either of us ever imagined that like we would get married. But like, we are so happy. I'm so glad that we did. We've learned so much about each other. We're like, it's like, I'm so happy that we did. But like when I was little, I don't know if I was like, imagining that would like I'd get married in like a backyard, like with only a judge. Cause like, you know, no one's family could be there. Cause there's, you know what I mean? So.

• 36:34Steven Bartlett?

  Something beautiful about that though.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  No, it was amazing. And I'm like so happy that we did it. But I just think everyone can have like a different, like approach, and just cause you've had this or that, or that, like everyone just has like their own way. And I think that's like cool.

• 36:45Steven Bartlett?

  Movies fuck us up though, don't they?

• 36:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, they really do.

• 36:49Steven Bartlett?

  You know, it's expectation, expectation, expectation. And then that kills happiness and makes us confuse real with, you know, I don't know, some other shit. And hmm, that's a really great answer. It's a really great answer. We do, we try and work out the perfect formula for things too much in life. But there is really no perfection when you're dealing with such complex organisms.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:12Steven Bartlett?

  Forming complex relationships. So you move to, is it St. Louis?

• 37:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:17Steven Bartlett?

  St. Louis?

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:18Steven Bartlett?

  St. Louis, St. Louis, when you were 25?

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 37:21Steven Bartlett?

  What was that about? Why did you leave L A?

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Wanted to be close to my stepdad.

• 37:27Speaker 00

  And so, uh, yeah, that was my, and also because I was like, couldn't stop. I was like, LA is why I can't stop doing drugs and having sex with strangers, even though I love this person so much like let's. And then unfortunately, as my stepdad always said, no matter where you go, there you are. So obviously leaving LA. Didn't fix anything. And then he actually passed away like three weeks after we left LA and got to St. Louis. So it was like bad on bad. And then I really, really freaked out. Like then I was, that was like the most self-destructive era.

• 38:00Steven Bartlett?

  Take me into that moment.

• 38:03Speaker 00

  Hmm, I don't want to.

• 38:06Steven Bartlett?

  Fine.

• 38:09Speaker 00

  It's in the book.

• 38:10Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I read, I read, um, I read, I read that that was a very difficult time for you. Um.

• 38:17Speaker 00

  Cause I also just think that like, we don't need to like, I don't need to like war story, which is like what we call it in rehab. Like when you talk about like. The worst thing. I mean, there's a way that you can do it like with respect and like not speak, you know, it's like, I was doing this much things and these drugs and, but like. I also, you know, in protecting my energy, like I've been on an international tour for 10 days. Like I've given myself so much into like. My new show, like which has been, I'm so proud of it. It's like my third like hour of comedy, but like. I'm not all the way in a space where like, I want to speak to that part of my life right now. So I'm just going to set a really loving boundary. So I don't really want to chat about it.

• 38:52Steven Bartlett?

  It's fine. I respect that a lot.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  Thanks, honey.

• 38:54Steven Bartlett?

  What, what do, um, if I, if I, when's the next significant moment in your life then? So you, that, Steven is his name? Steve?

• 39:02Speaker 00

  Steve.

• 39:03Steven Bartlett?

  Steve passes away, um, causes a series of issues in your life. Um, you move back to LA. Did you ever think TV and media would be part of your?

• 39:14Speaker 00

  Not in this way. No. And how exciting that that, that like, it was such like a curve ball. But no, I mean, I just was like accidentally telling a really talented producer, um, an actress and comedian friend of mine, uh, who was a client. About Game of Thrones. And I was like, have you seen this show? It's like this and it's that. And like, I did a little impromptu recap of it as I was like doing her hair. And. When I was done, she was like, that's a series. And so then we did Gay of Thrones. That was like December of 12. And then. The next year, we started doing Gay of Thrones that like. March and then um Gay of Thrones came out and it was meant to be like one episode, but then we got Alfie Allen for our second episode and then Funny or Die was like, keep doing this. And so then I went really from being like a hairdresser to learning on

• 39:59Speaker 00

  the job, how to be a performer, how to like improv, how to deliver scripted lines, how to write, how to produce. I mean, I was writing and producing and didn't even know that that's what I was doing because I was doing it on the job. So like, like I just learned like this whole new skill set, kind of like over the years, like for like three months a year, like I would do Gay of Thrones and I just like kind of slow. And then after doing Gay of Thrones for two years, I was like, oh, this is so fun. I want to do this more. And so then that's when I started my podcast, Getting Curious. And then I did, I got to like, learn how to produce that and learn how to research for that and book clients for that. I mean, I think I did like the first 50 episodes with like myself and a sound engineer, but I was like booking it myself. Like it was like, and it was like,

• 40:44Speaker 00

  I was like just learning like all of these things that I had never really done. And so then I really started to get like stung by that bee and I was like, I want to do this more. And I always have loved doing hair, but I was like, I want to be, I want to write more. I want to be more on camera. I want to like, I want to do this more often. And then in 2018, the Queer Eye, or it was actually not 18, it was 2017, I read that the reboot was happening and they were casting for it. And I was like, this is my moment. Like, this is what I've been waiting for. Like, this is the vehicle. Like, I always loved Queer Eye growing up, my grandparents and I would watch it together. It was like, I'm ready. And then I went to that audition and that audition was literally like the scene

• 41:25Speaker 00

  in Mean Girls when they're all at the fountain and everyone's like tackling each other. It was like that, except for everyone was like being really sweet. And I remember like this one creator of the show, like his eyes, like I said this like funny thing and I was like, okay, you need to be like, you are on Gay of Thrones all times. Like, you need to be on 15 and you need to say fucking one liners all the time. Like, just be the funniest you have ever even thought about being for the next 48 hours. Capisce? Like, that's what I was thinking like in my head. And I did. Like, I was just like, and I just was like so on.

• 42:01Steven Bartlett?

  Why you? You know, I think, so I, I have my-

• 42:04Speaker 00

  Why not me, darling?

• 42:06Steven Bartlett?

  Well, I have my suspicions, but I, for you to, you know, it wasn't just an audition, even the stuff you were doing with, um, was it Funny or Die, wasn't it? The, the channel back then?

• 42:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, Game of Thrones, yeah.

• 42:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 42:18Steven Bartlett?

  Do you ever pause and think, like, what is it about you that made you really successful in Game of Thrones? And then really successful in Queer Eye? What is it about you in your own assessment?

• 42:34Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 42:35Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 42:35Speaker 00

  I really don't, because I think it could have been a million people. I think that I have, I think I'm resilient.

• 42:43Speaker 00

  I think that I have been told no so many times and didn't turn around and go back. I like found a different way. I think that's really important.

• 42:53Steven Bartlett?

  We've got resilience, but, you know, just from meeting you now, you have a remarkable talent for wit and humor. You're very funny and you have a very unforgettable personality. You're like, you're unbelievable energy. And no, I'm, no, but I'm, I'm gen-, you know-

• 43:10Speaker 00

  No, thank you.

• 43:11Steven Bartlett?

  No, but you know, you sort of, you know what I'm saying? I can't do what you do, and I've, I've only met you for like, I don't know, an hour or so. And I can't be, I'm not as hilarious and witty and, I don't know. I don't, I can't even almost describe it, that some people just have like a really engaging personality and you have that, you have that like, energy. That's a huge part of it, surely, your success. Because you're in, you're, you know, especially on TV and Netflix-

• 43:38Speaker 00

  I don't know, I really don't, like, I see people, like, I have, I know people that make me laugh that I think are way funnier than me. Like, way funnier, way more witty, way more like unforgettable personalities. But like, I think that a lot of the people who I'm thinking of, like, had some message from the, like, in their lives where like, they were like, either, or like their moment hasn't happened yet, it's one of the two.

• 44:02Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  Um, but I think for a lot of people that like, maybe like backed away or like, were like, I don't want to like, because like, I- Because actually, in retrospect, like, I really, it's not just I think that, like, oh, I didn't chase my dream. I actually really did chase this, like, with Gay of Thrones, you know? Like, I, like, I wanted more than Gay of Thro-, I mean, Gay of Thrones started in 2013, and I didn't book Queer Eye until 2017, and then there was no knowing if Queer Eye was gonna work or not until, like, 2018. So, I mean, 2013 was 10 years ago. Like, I've been at this for a long time. Um, and so, and there was, like, so many setbacks, like, so many setbacks through that time.

• 44:38Steven Bartlett?

  Your authentic self, I've sat here with a lot of people in TV, and TV and media can often make us, it can incentivize us to become a ca-, like, not character, but like, and I sat here with Jake Humphries and a wonderful lady called Fern Cotton, who were TV presenters.

• 44:51Speaker 00

  I love Fern!

• 44:52Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, you know Fern, yeah. So Fern told me on the podcast that she spent 10 years as a TV presenter, and she, I think, realized at some point that she was living outside of herself, and at least, um, she wasn't able to reflect the full array of her, who she was. And that resulted in panic attacks and other, sort of, psychological issues she had.

• 45:13Steven Bartlett?

  And it's, and it's made, and now she's so successful doing Happy Place, where she's able to be herself. So this conversation around, like, being your authentic self being the pathway to your greatest success, what is your take on that? This idea of, like, showing up as yourself regardless of the temptations or disincentivations or incentivizations to be something else? How important to you has been being yourself regardless?

• 45:39Speaker 00

  It's such, because, like, even, like, because I, I totally understand, but even that feels like, um, I don't think, like, what is, like, all the way authentic? What's, like, all the way yourself? Because I always get leery when we're like, because, like, if, if the alternative is, like,

• 45:56Speaker 00

  I don't think that there's such things as being, like, all the way yourself or not yourself at all. Like, so I think it's like a spectrum, like everything is kind of really much more of like a spectrum than it is like a binary, like choice. So, and like when you were saying with Fern, it was like, you know, she's like a TV presenter, but she couldn't show like the fullness of herself. So like, that's why I wrote "Over the Top", because I, and I think in "Love That Story", I say like, or no, it's in "Over the Top", I say that like, "I love an episode of Queer Eye just as much as the next person, but if I can't tell you my full truth and tell you who I really am, then like, I can't help other people like me and I actually can't even be myself." And then the whole crux of "Over the Top" is, and what I ask in the book is like, "Would you still want to have a selfie with me? Like, would you still love me if you knew my

• 46:36Speaker 00

  whole story?" And so that's, you know, and then I say in "Love That Story" that the resounding answer that I got from so many people was, "Yes, you know, I do still love you." And like, in most cases, it was like even more so. But were there parts? I think we always have parts of ourselves that are informed by external factors. Like, if I didn't get feedback from people, when I go like, when I say something funny, that, that, if I didn't get positive feedback from that, would I still be making all those jokes? Like, so does that mean I'm not really, you know what I'm saying? Like, every, every way that we show up in the world is because of like, our socialization, our relationships, like our communities. Like,

• 47:18Speaker 00

  I don't think that that makes you like, it's really like your relationship with yourself. And I don't think that like, I don't think there's like authentic and like inauthentic. There's like, there's like, sometimes I'm more like this because of this thing, and sometimes I'm more like that because of that thing. You know what I mean? Perfect, makes perfect sense. That's so interesting. But it is the truth. And you know what I think is actually more authentic, is like, being able to like, speak to what you're actually feeling like in the moment. Like, I feel like earlier when we were saying like, um, like I literally caught myself, I was like, "Oh, like, you know, Brene Brown says, can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma?" And I was like, literally laying that up because I was feeling vulnerable with you, I was, and I didn't like it. So I was like, "Oh yeah, I totally can. Like, I can totally speak", and it like, doesn't really hurt me, so I don't really want to talk about it that much,

• 48:02Speaker 00

  because it's like, but then it's like, actually, that was really a protector part that was coming up, because I didn't want to talk about it. And I felt like I was going to become my trauma. Like, cause I am a little tired and I am a little run down. Like after the last two weeks, like I've worked my fucking ass off for these last two weeks. And another thing that's interesting that I don't really want to talk about, but when I was originally supposed to, when we were gonna do this the last time, I had like a really close family member die, super young, super out of the blue, like which we don't, but she got strep throat and died in four days. My sister in law. And so that's why I wasn't in the United Kingdom, which I also didn't ever talk about publicly. Cause it's like not anything I wanted to talk about, but like it's, I think really what being authentic is, is having the courage and like the vulnerability to say like,

• 48:47Speaker 00

  this is what I'm going through. Like this is like actually the thought that I actually had in my head. Like when I was about to try to lie to you, like this is really what it was. And like for me, it's like, sometimes it's like, if you come up to me for a selfie and like especially on that day, like with Leslie, my sister in law, like I wasn't taking selfies. It wasn't in a good mood. When my cat fell out of a window and you asked me for a selfie, I wasn't gonna take a selfie. And sometimes I'll be like, yeah, like let's just like, let's do it. But then sometimes, but you know, normally my life is okay. And I'm not going through like some horrific trauma. That's not the energy I give you when you want a selfie. I'm like, yeah, girl. Like it's like, let's do it. But sometimes I'm not always like that. And so I think that's really what's authentic is saying that like, just cause you always seen me like,

• 49:28Speaker 00

  or the two episodes of Queer Eye that you saw me five years ago, and you remember me saying some funny quippy things. What's really authentic is me being able to be like, that's not always who I am. And there's actually like a fuller picture there. So like that is like what authentic is. But there is, there have been moments like where I was probably like totally someone asking for a selfie. And I was like, sure, girl, let's do it. And on the inside, I was like, I would wanna die. Like I don't feel good. I feel awful. And then the expectation of someone that I need to perform that for them constantly, no matter what's going on.

• 50:00Speaker 00

  That shit wears me out, which is why I can't do it all the time. So like, that's, yeah, I, I like, I just think authenticity is like this like buzzword that we use when like really what it is, is like, are you willing to like?

• 50:16Speaker 00

  Be open about like what you need.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  Like what your experience is, like what someone's like expecting of you.

• 50:23Steven Bartlett?

  Regardless of how the external world might respond positively or negatively to that.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:29Steven Bartlett?

  Gosh, then if that is the definition of authenticity, it's even harder than I thought. Because authenticity, as it's often portrayed, is just like, like being, being your personality, warts and all, being that, you know, if my personality is slightly weird in certain ways, being that regardless of company. But in the definition you've described there, it's like boundaries and like staying true to myself regardless of the consequences of that externally. Which is, as you say, I have tired days. I have days when I'm in a bad mood, when I'm, when I need some space, where I don't want anyone to talk to me. And on those days, expressing that is authenticity.

• 51:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:03Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I love that. How are you feeling?

• 51:07Speaker 00

  No.

• 51:07Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, you know, your schedule's been crazy. You've been doing a lot of work lately.

• 51:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:11Steven Bartlett?

  How are you feeling?

• 51:12Speaker 00

  Um, look, I feel.

• 51:19Speaker 00

  I feel really grateful and at the same time, I feel really frustrated.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  Um, and that's the best way I can explain it right now. I'm going through a lot of grief.

• 51:33Speaker 00

  I just lost my sister-in-law two months ago. I'm watching my nephews like grow up, you know, dealing with unimaginable grief. I'm watching my brother deal with unimaginable loss. Um, so talking about, you know, how I'm feeling and it's just, this has been a really hard time. And I think balancing your private life with being a public figure who is constantly expected to be a ray of fucking sunshine, no matter what is going on, it can be challenging.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  So.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  I love my hairline. I love what I get to do with JVN Hair. I love that I get to be a comedian. I love that when I want to like do a show, I can like, there's people that want to come see my comedy. Like comedy has been so healing for me and it's like one place in my career where I get to be irreverent and I get to like, I feel like I'm the most myself onstage. I think that's like the most accurate and unfiltered like version of who I am is like onstage. I think like any artist, when you like, like I've just been burning the candle at both ends for the last like 10 days. So like in this very moment in my life, like actually this particular moment, I feel frustrated and grieving.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  When I zoom out a little bit and give voice to that frustration and now I can like sit with this for like longer and actually like tell, like give a larger answer. I feel like,

• 53:12Speaker 00

  actually, it's the same. I feel grateful and frustrated. Like Dylan Mulvaney is a really good friend of mine. I love her so much. I've like watched what's happened to her in the press for the last few months. I'm like so frustrated. I just see so much like just absolute garbage, like just transphobic garbage all over the place. I see really not very many folks

• 53:33Speaker 00

  really interrogating their beliefs around their transphobia, interrogating like where are they getting their information? And then even understanding like our transphobia that we experience in our culture is like really truly rooted in like white supremacy and colonialism. And this conversation goes back like 400 years. And so that's like a really big systemic thing. But then living in a state where like this woman literally just lost her life.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  Because this guy thought that she looked queer. Like, there are kids that like, like their families are like moving, like they can't like, they can't, they like, there are kids who like, if they have already started their transition and they're like, if they're, you know, 16 year old and they're a sophomore in high school and they've been living in their gender identity since they were like a five year old kid. They've been on puberty blockers when they were, you know, little. They had a concert of doctors and their family who cares about them and loves them deeply, helped them transition. Um, because if they didn't transition in some cases, not all cases, but some cases like these kids will have such intense gender dysphoria that they can commit suicide. They can do things that can truly never be reversed.

• 54:44Speaker 00

  And so we have these people making these hyperbolic claims about protecting children um, and about, you know, protecting children from making irreversible decisions. Uh, bathrooms, fairness in sports, all of these things. When like trans people make up like at most like 2% of the population. Like gun violence is out of control, education's out of control. Like people don't have access to the food, to the healthcare. I mean, my book's been banned. Like my book, like Peanut Goes for the Gold, like they're talking about banning, I mean, like, this is really serious. And so like, it's just frustrating. I'm grateful, but I think to like, have had a lot of my dreams come true. Like I said in earlier, but then in this like environment of like, where you feel like, oh my God,

• 55:25Speaker 00

  like if one person decides that like, something that I said or did, they can like, I mean, you literally, because so much of the transphobia that we read about, like when you read, like, if you read an article about what happened to Dylan, um, like the way that people just speak about trans people and non-binary people, like the quotations, the, the inferred like threats or like not believing that we are who we say that we are. And, but then like how that actually has like been taken farther now to like revoking healthcare, like, you know, limiting access to healthcare, calling healthcare child abuse. Um, it's just really frustrating because it's such like a gigantic conversation that there's a lot of nuance and a lot of people have been exposed to misinformation and disinformation

• 56:09Speaker 00

  and don't really understand. And so then, and then I'm in this position of like, like, how do I balance like what I'm seeing happening to friends and people who I love? And then like running a business and trying to grow my business? And then with this backdrop of all this fucked up shit? It's hard. So I'm like, you know, I'm grateful, like, and I'm also like a hairdresser who loves doing hair. Like, I love good products. Like, I'm someone who in my twenties, like, I would overdraft my checking account to get the shampoo and conditioner that I wanted. Like, I, because I know when your hair feels good, like, when you feel good about how you look, like, you just feel so much better. And I would literally choose, like, products over food all the time in my twenties. And so I wanted to make products that are clean and, but ultimately, like, more than clean.

• 56:54Speaker 00

  Like, I really wanted to make products that work really, really well, that don't cost, like, a hundred dollars for a shampoo and conditioner. Like, I just wanted to make really highly functional products that work on people's hair, that hairdressers love, and that people love, that they can actually afford. And I'm so passionate about it, but, like, there's a lot of times that I can't even think about the cool things that I've done, because I'm like,

• 57:14Speaker 00

  literally, like, if you read comments right now, but who cares about a comment? I don't really care about comments. I care about, like, what's happened in my state, like, in Texas, like, I mean, there's like, like, this, like, drag band that was just passed, like, I'm performing in Texas in Austin in December. Like, I have to make sure, like, there used to be able to be like, now, in this show, Fun and Slutty, I wouldn't want kids there anyway. It is like an adult show, but like, it is like, there is, like, I'm, like, there was, there was a law that they were talking about that would, like, just force people to wear clothes of their, like, biological sex in public. That law didn't pass, so there's a conversation around it. The way that we're, like, trending and heading, and any time where you, like, talk about, like,

• 57:59Speaker 00

  limiting a whole group's ability to, like, you know, access, like, information, healthcare, education, or just, like, their exposure to public under the guise of, like, protecting kids. Like, historically, we've really seen that a lot of times, like, against so many marginalized groups. So I think any time when that starts happening, like, we all really need to be super leery, especially because, like, sex abuse is such a huge issue, and it is happening in families and in churches, and it's happening in schools. Um, I'll tell you where it's not happening, is at Drag Queen Brunch.

• 58:31Speaker 00

  Okay, it's not happening there. Um, it's not happening in healthcare clinics. Well, maybe it could be in some places like I don't, you know. But really, it's like, it is not happening in gender-affirming care and it ain't happening at drag queen brunches. Um, it's these like dentist or you know, some doctor might put you under some, those things happen with these crazy fucking cis-het doctors who you find out were like, you know, impregnating their fucking patients or like, that is what, it's like maybe that, but like, in gender-affirming care and in drag queen brunch, it's not child abuse.

• 58:59Steven Bartlett?

  Where, where, where's this, because I've noticed this, what feels like quite a tectonic shift, um, in transphobic narratives over the last couple of months in particular. It seems to have been this, this, and I can't figure out where it's come from. I was, I was saying this to you earlier on, but if I don't know where it's come from, I don't really know.

• 59:19Speaker 00

  Part of it is conservative think tanks. So when Biden won in 2020, um, and we saw this in Virginia because the Virginia House of Delegates, uh, it by one vote stayed Republican. And then, because they have off-cycle elections in Virginia, it's till 2019, it flips back to, or flips to Democrats. And then 2021, it reverses again and goes back to Republicans. And the issue that they really used there was bathrooms and trans rights. Because the Democratic-controlled, uh, legislator in that 19 session had done some things on trans rights.

• 59:56Speaker 00

  And they threw these conservative think tanks, because a lot of times in Virginia, because it has off-years, like they use that as like a bellwether to like test things, like just on both sides, like Democrats and Republicans. But they were throwing everything at the wall. They're abortion, hell no, they don't want that, that's not going well for them right now, because most people support the right to abortion. So for Republicans, like that's not a winning thing right now. But the thing that in gay marriage, that's not really a huge thing anymore, because most people support gay marriage. But when they threw trans rights.

• 1:00:25Speaker 00

  When they threw biological males competing against women in sports, robbing, you know, your sweet, pretty little white girl of her, you know, hard-earned sporting opportunities. That stuck. That stuck hardcore. That got people fucking circling the wagons, honey. So, um, that is when we really started to see, and when you were like, oh, it's just in these last three months. It has not just been in these last three months. That's because of the way that elections work and because we just had a midterm election in November of last year, and then they don't take office until January, and then it takes months and months for things to get through committee and stuff. All of this shit has been in the works. We've all been talking about this. If you look at my Getting Curious that was canceled on Netflix last fucking year,

• 1:01:08Speaker 00

  there's a whole episode about this, and it's, it talks about the anti-drag bills up until 2022. As compared to that time, we have four times more at that time, and the graph was like this. So it isn't new, and it just takes a minute. But, um, I think another thing that we're seeing is that, like, you know how you were saying, like, oh, the lion, or like the, the thing of like, the tiger's coming for you, run away from the tiger? Yeah, yeah. So that's like negativity bias versus like positive, positive bias. That's why a story of like, someone getting murdered or someone getting abused is gonna go way farther than like, you know, the Good News Network story. You know, it's your negativity bias. So that's the other thing is that, like, because we have so much fear mongering around

• 1:01:47Speaker 00

  trans issues right now, um, that's also part of, like, why, like, it feels like it's going so much farther because people really are actually thinking that, people really think that there's like little kids going and getting hysterectomies, like going to school as a boy and coming home as a girl, having like full, you know what I mean? Like, people actually have been convinced that, like, there's little teeny children who are making, you know, permanent medical decisions with no parental supervision, with no medical supervision. People really think that's true. Another huge issue that we're up against right now is that there's so much disinformation around, like, the fact that actually, like, biological sex is in and of itself a spectrum. Like, that's not even a binary. Like, do you know what intersex is?

• 1:02:31Speaker 00

  Do I? Yeah. No, I don't. So that's the I in LGBTQIA. There is like six intersex, uh, there's six. My friend Alicia Rothweigl is an amazing intersex activist. Her book is coming out. It's called Inverse Cowgirl. She also just helped produce a movie that just came out that is called Everybody. But statistics show that up to 2%. I've interviewed her on Getting Curious, if you ever want to listen to it. But up to 2% of our population is inter-- and you should actually have her on this podcast because she's fucking major. But 2% of our population is intersex. We don't test everyone that's born for what our chromosomes are. So there's XX and then there's XY. But then there's also a variation that's XXY. There's also some, there's like these multiple variations. There are six main ones that qualify someone as intersex.

• 1:03:14Speaker 00

  And so what happens is, and is that like if a kid is born intersex, doctors, they don't even mark that down. Like they will take the kid, they talk to the parent and they say like whatever the genitalia most appears as. They're, and, and literally one thing that I have learned and have been told is like doctors will literally say it's easier to dig a hole than build a pole. So most people that are born intersex, they will make into someone that looks biologically female, but these people will have to take hormones for their entire life. They have to have gender, they have to have genital surgery, like on their genitals when they are babies. I'm talking like operate on their genitals when they're babies and then when they're kids and then they have to wear expanders when they're kids. Like their parents have to teach them how to wear expanders so they will have a vagina that looks like other people's vaginas.

• 1:03:58Speaker 00

  So kids currently, up to 2% of people. Now, when you say that to transphobes, they'll say like, oh, well, actually that study was wrong and it's only point oh two people. It's not 2%, it's, it's point two. And either way, 2% of the population of 7 billion, that's hundreds of millions of people who have intersex characteristics. Of point two, that's still millions and millions of people with intersex characteristics. And there's a lot of people who look like they're men, who are actually walking around here with XXY chromosomes. A lot of men who can't have kids, it's actually because they have, they are intersex. So intersex people exist all over the place. Like intersex is a real thing.

• 1:04:41Speaker 00

  The idea of biological sex being a binary isn't even true. And if you talk to biologists, they will tell you exactly what I'm telling you. And it's interesting in a lot of these anti-trans bills for kids, intersex kids are specifically carved out. So in these bills, it says you can't commit, no genital mutilation, no hormones. Your kid must be the biological sex that they were born unless they are intersex. And then we must do genital surgery. We must prescribe hormones. We must enforce the binary.

• 1:05:14Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:05:15Speaker 00

  So that's, and I'm, and you, if you think I'm being hyperbolic right now, not you or just anyone watching, like, do this research. Look up what intersex is.

• 1:05:22Steven Bartlett?

  Can I, can I ask you a really important question?

• 1:05:24Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:05:25Steven Bartlett?

  That I've been, I've been mulling over in my head and I'm gonna be, I think there'll be a lot of people that are mulling this question in their head, which is, how can I be a, and I'm not even sure if this is the right word, but how can I be a better ally?

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  Um, I think everyone needs to realize, uh, I think the ally talk is a little bit garbage because it, ally implies that like, this doesn't affect me, but because I care about you, I'm gonna fight against this.

• 1:05:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:48Speaker 00

  But actually, these, this transphobia affects everyone. Like, it affects everyone. Um, it affects cisgender women because like, even now, like, there's little girls who like, they're wanting to like, there was like little girls soccer team in Utah where this one team beat the other team and the kid, the parents of the kids who got beaten, accused the other girls of being transgender. Uh, and they were like, that's why they got beaten. So like, as we start to like incentivize, you know, checking kids genitals and checking like, to make sure that you're who you say you are and like, and really like villainize this idea of transness. It starts, like, it's going to affect everyone. Like, so if it doesn't affect you now, it's like, we already lost our right to reproductive healthcare because the right to reproductive healthcare in the United States goes hand in hand with its bodily autonomy.

• 1:06:31Speaker 00

  So whether you're talking about determining what your body does reproductively or determining what your body does as far as your gender expression, like, they go hand in hand and it's all about control. So that control affects everyone. So I think we need to like, allyship, I think is like, oh, like, I'm gonna do this, like, even though it doesn't affect me, I'm gonna be your ally. At least that's how I feel about it. Like, that's like how, when I think of it, but really, it's like, we need people to understand that like, if you're white, racism, it doesn't affect you in the same way that it does for a person of color. But you shouldn't be like, I'm gonna do you a solid and be an ally. You should do, you should be, you should be in that fight because an injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere and it will affect you. And actually, the racism and the transphobia and the homophobia and the misogyny and the

• 1:07:14Speaker 00

  the way that we are like, so like, don't talk about disabled people and, and what they need. Or people with disabilities, the disabled community is like, all this does is like, keeps money in the most powerful people, the most powerful people's hands. Like, we all need to really come together and like, like, to me, it's like the corporate greed. Like, that's really what is like, causing so much of this. And then like, corporate greed, because so much of that is like, made by Republicans. They're like, look over here, it's trans people. Look over here, it's gay people. Look over here, it's, it's, um, it's food stamps. Like, they're being lazy. Like, that's why, those people are being lazy. These people don't even work. These people are fucking crazy with their trans, their, their kids are running around, like, you know what I mean?

• 1:07:57Speaker 00

  So it's just a lot of like, smoke and mirrors. Now, as far as hair care, we're obsessed with JV and hair. It's absolutely gorgeous.

• 1:08:01Steven Bartlett?

  Can I just say, can I just say on this, um, your team said to me before you arrived, they said, we've, we've worked with a few people, but nobody's ever been so deeply obsessed in the product and been authentically obsessed in the product as you have. So I've went through and I've had a little sample of all of them. They are the most exquisite, exquisitely smelling products I've ever

• 1:08:18Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:08:18Steven Bartlett?

  Wonderful of ingesting nasally.

• 1:08:22Steven Bartlett?

  Well done. I heard this is breaking records.

• 1:08:24Speaker 00

  Thanks. Um, pre-wash cup oil is amazing. I, well, I think, for me, I really love formulas. I love formulas that work on all hair types. So for us, I'm really big on like, the amount of product. Like, if your hair is finer in density, you're gonna use a little bit less. If your hair is quite thick in density, like, a lot of hair per square inch, you're gonna use a little bit more. That's an amazing heat protectant right there that has niacinamide and charged lemon protein in it. So it's, it has no hold, so it's amazing for people who just like, wanna put a little bit of nourishment in their hair. But it also has great heat protection. Even if you don't style your hair with a blow dryer or a curling iron, you're still experiencing heat from your body heat in the sun. So it's just a great hair hydrator, um, but no hold. If you wanted, for you, if you wanted to like, bring out your waves a little bit, we don't have any air dry cream in there, but

• 1:09:09Steven Bartlett?

  It's over there in the bag.

• 1:09:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, air dry cream, you could like, put on your waves when your hair is wet and then like, run your little like

• 1:09:14Steven Bartlett?

  I saw it's the foam.

• 1:09:16Speaker 00

  Uh, no, it's a cream, air dry cream. But you can like really like take that out with like a little like your little wave brush and really just like get like bring out your waves. Um, you could do like a sponge roller with that.

• 1:09:28Speaker 00

  I love our little air dry cream. It's great for textured hair. It's really great for like one A through four C. That's undamaged. That's great for anyone who's got like highlights, heat damage, swimming a lot.

• 1:09:37Steven Bartlett?

  You've sold me and I'm, I can't wait for my.

• 1:09:38Speaker 00

  I hope you love it. We'll send some to you and your partner.

• 1:09:40Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, we've got a hu- huge bag here. Thank you so much.

• 1:09:42Speaker 00

  You're so welcome.

• 1:09:43Steven Bartlett?

  We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the.

• 1:09:46Speaker 00

  Yes, who's your next one? Who's your next one?

• 1:09:47Steven Bartlett?

  What about your life do you think is abnormal and why?

• 1:09:50Speaker 00

  Oh, okay. Um, whatever. Hmm.

• 1:09:56Speaker 00

  Maybe like my five cats, three dogs and seven chickens. And that's like maybe more animals than like most people have, but I get so much joy from my family and I don't know if I really want human babies. I love my fur babies. So maybe that's, that's I think why it's my life is so fun. Do I get to ask the question of the next person?

• 1:10:12Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 1:10:12Speaker 00

  But do I get to know who the next person is? I just had to ask a random question of someone I don't even know?

• 1:10:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yes, and also they'll be turned into cards that people will play with their families and stuff.

• 1:10:20Speaker 00

  Oh, fuck. So it can't be what's the sluttiest thing you've ever done?