Pod Insights The Oprah Podcast Oprah and Mel Robbins on How to Calm Anxiety About this episode Mel Robbins is a global podcasting sensation and the bestselling author of “The Let Them Theory: A Life-Changing Tool That Millions of People Can’t Stop Talking About.” Mel joins Oprah on “The Oprah Podcast” to discuss what feels like the overwhelming emotion of our times: anxiety. Mel offers practical, effective tools and strategies—based on science and her own personal experience—to help ground your anxious thoughts and keep you connected to your capability. She answers questions from listeners about their own feelings of anxiety.
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0:01 Speaker 00 This episode is brought to you by HBO Max. For your awards consideration, HBO Max presents Rooster. Starring Steve Carell, this new comedy series focuses on the complicated relationship between a successful author and his daughter. Don't miss the series IGN called hilarious and brilliant. Rooster is streaming on HBO Max. Watch now.
0:22 Oprah Winfrey? Hi, everybody. Thanks for joining me on the Oprah Podcast. I'm back with Mel Robbins.
0:27 Speaker 02 Oprah Winfrey.
0:29 Oprah Winfrey? And we're talking about something that I know impacts so many of you, millions, actually, and some people very close to me as well. Anxiety.
0:38 Speaker 02 Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
0:42 Oprah Winfrey? Mel Robbins is a force. Her latest book, The Let Them Theory, spent 15 weeks on top of the New York Times Bestseller list and is being translated into 51 languages.
0:55 Speaker 02 Mel be dropping gems, and I'm like, ah!
0:58 Oprah Winfrey? Her podcast is followed by millions and often lands in the number one spot. When I started my own podcast, Mel Robbins was one of the first people I called. You're never stuck.
1:08 Speaker 02 Never, ever, ever, ever, ever stuck.
1:11 Oprah Winfrey? Mel is back to talk about what feels like the overwhelming emotion of our times: anxiety.
1:18 Speaker 02 I want you to never say, "I have anxiety," ever.
1:21 Oprah Winfrey? We will unpack what anxiety actually is.
1:25 Speaker 02 All anxiety is separation anxiety.
1:27 Oprah Winfrey? Answer your questions.
1:28 Speaker 03 What tools does the next generation need to cope with anxiety?
1:33 Speaker 04 How do you let go of your anxiety and still keep your edge?
1:37 Oprah Winfrey? And hopefully give you the tools to calm some of those runaway thoughts.
1:42 Speaker 02 I am a woman who has struggled profoundly with anxiety, and because I didn't get control of it, I actually made my daughter's anxiety worse.
1:49 Oprah Winfrey? As Mel says, how to stay connected to your capability.
1:53 Speaker 02 And the decision that changed my life was the decision to get out of bed that morning.
2:02 Speaker 02 So many of you may already know Mel's personal story, but in case anybody listening or watching doesn't know, you struggled with anxiety in college. Oh, my gosh. And law school. And how did it start showing up for you? Oprah, I think I came out of the womb as a worried and anxious child. Like, I had a nervous stomach. I couldn't go to sleepover camp. And for college and law school, I just was in a chronic state of feeling stressed out. I was not in my body a lot of the time. And we're going to talk a lot about what anxiety is and what it isn't. And I didn't understand what anxiety was in college and law school. Okay. And so you start to get afraid of it. Yeah.
2:46 Speaker 02 And then you dread it. And then it gets worse. Okay, you said we're going to talk about. What is it and what isn't it? So anxiety is just an alarm system in your body. That's all that it is. Anxiety rises. It's just like stress. So if you have something stressful going on at work today, you're going to feel... What would you feel if you had a stressful day at work?
3:07 Oprah Winfrey? I would feel maybe a little tension. I would feel a little sense of anxiousness, like, gotta get it done, gotta get it done.
3:16 Speaker 02 Uh huh.
3:17 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
3:17 Speaker 02 And that's a sign that you're mentally well.
3:20 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
3:20 Speaker 02 Because you have a lot of things going on.
3:22 Oprah Winfrey? Right.
3:22 Speaker 02 And that stress is basically the same thing as anxiety. Anxiety is what happens when your body goes from a calm resting state Yeah. into a tense and on-edge fight-or-flight state. And there's actually a lot of medical research about this. You go from this part of your brain, which is the prefrontal cortex, to the amygdala part of the brain. Amygdala, yeah. Turning on the stress response. And it was helpful for me to learn that anxiety is really switching from this part to this part of the brain in response to something that's going on. The problem with anxiety is that it starts to rise up in situations where you don't really know why you're anxious. It's like the alarm is going, and you don't know how to turn it off. Well, why does it do that?
4:07 Speaker 02 One of the main reasons why it does it, at least for me, is I didn't understand it. And if you don't know what anxiety is, you start to become afraid of it because you're on edge all the time. That's right. You become anxious about the anxiety. Correct. Yes. And so I want you to start to do one thing. I want you to never say, "I have anxiety." Ever. Okay. Because then you become defined by it. Okay. I want you to say either I feel anxious or I feel alarmed because...
4:37 Speaker 02 Of whatever the situation is. Correct. Got it. Because what happens with anxiety, Oprah, is that you have a moment where you feel a little uncertain about something, whether it's work, or a relationship, or a conversation, or a day ahead, or the problems that you're facing. And the uncertainty isn't the problem. And the alarm going off because there is uncertainty isn't the problem. The problem is that you doubt your capacity and capability to deal with it.
5:07 Speaker 02 Exactly. And this is where... Thank you for that clarification. And, and wait to hear this. Yeah. All anxiety, Oprah, is separation anxiety. This comes from Dr. Russell Kennedy, who has a PhD and an MD and specializes in anxiety. All anxiety is separation anxiety. Because what we do, and this is the mistake I made for decades, is I would feel on edge about something and then I'd circle going, I'm anxious, I'm anxious, hey. And then I would go up here, neck up. Uh huh. And when you go neck up, up into your thoughts, you start to think about how you're feeling and the alarm gets worse. Yeah, yeah, one begets the other, begets, begets, begets. Now here's where the separation part comes in.
5:52 Speaker 02 What are you separate from? Yeah, what? Yourself, your power and source.
6:01 Speaker 02 Where is your power, yourself and source located? Not up here. Down here. The way that you actually deal with anxiety, and I didn't know this for 35, 40 years, is you don't go up here. You actually drop into your body. And your body has a on/off switch that can turn off the alarm of anxiety. It's called the vagus nerve. I didn't know any of this. God, I wish I'd known this. I'm so excited for the person that's here with us right now, learning all this. Anybody can turn the switch on or off. The vagus nerve runs from your seat, through every organ, up through your vocal cords, to the top of your head.
6:43 Speaker 02 And if you know how to tone the vagus nerve, you can press your hand on your heart. You can breathe certain ways. The vocal cord, it goes through your vocal cords. It's very hard to feel anxious in church when you're singing a hymn. Why? Because as you're singing, it stimulates the vagus nerve, which acts like a tuning fork, to tune to your body that you're actually okay. And as you're singing, you're not up here. You're dropping into here and you connect back with your power and with Source and with God and with your capability to face anything in life.
7:19 Oprah Winfrey? It's not up here, it's in here.
7:21 Speaker 02 Correct. And most of us live up here and they're like, what's going on? And just like an alarm going off in a house. Screaming alarm, alarm, alarm doesn't turn it off. Running out of the house doesn't turn it off. Taking a moment and finding the switch and switching it off turns it off. And we're going to talk today about how you can do that in very, very simple ways and why it's important. And when you do that, you stay connected to your capability to face anything.
7:54 Oprah Winfrey? And your power.
7:55 Speaker 02 Correct.
7:56 Oprah Winfrey? That's right. You're not giving your power away again.
7:58 Speaker 02 Correct.
7:59 Oprah Winfrey? So our listeners knew that you were going to be here and they reached out to us with questions for you about their anxiety. So Leah, hi. Hi. Leah is a business consultant from Maryland. And how has anxiety impacted you? Did you hear what, were you able to hear what, were you listening to Mel when she was talking about up here and not here?
8:22 Speaker 04 Yes, and I definitely can feel that buzz. That's something that was one of the first identifications for me, that anxiety buzz, entirely for me, was an indicator. As a child, I was never an anxious child, but as I got older, I started to realize a lot of the things that Mel shared about other people's worries and concerns. And that started to create a buzz in my own personal body about my own thoughts and my mindset. So I absolutely agree with that head conversation and not a heart conversation.
8:54 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, yeah. What's your question?
8:57 Speaker 04 So my question for Mel, and thank you Oprah, is how do you let go of your anxiety and still keep your edge and still keep your, you know, your tenacity?
9:07 Speaker 02 So it's a great question because I don't want you to let go of your edge.
9:10 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
9:11 Speaker 02 And here's the thing that I need you to understand, though. So anxiety, when the alarm goes off, where, like, let's say you have a huge presentation, of course, you're going to feel anxious. And the purpose of anxiety, when you flip into that sort of fight or flight, is to flood your body with all kinds of different neurochemicals to get your energy up and to get your heart going so that you can pay attention. But if it sticks around, here's the problem. The problem is that when you're in a state where you're sort of on edge and your nerves are starting to get to you and you go up in your head, you escalate it. And then when your brain switches modes, guess what? You lose your ability to think strategically.
9:53 Speaker 02 The reason why people flub it when they're giving a presentation and they're back, and you're like, oh, I'm so nervous, I'm nervous, I'm nervous, and now you're up in your head and you're now getting yourself so worked up, is not because you can't give a presentation. It's because you got yourself worked up and now you forgot everything that you prepared because you're impacting your brain function. And so I think that it is a mistake to think that anxiety gives you an edge. Because your body will always get a little adrenaline. You'll always come online and be more engaged when you got to do something that you care about. What I want you to understand is in those moments, you're gonna do something called high-fiving your heart.
10:38 Speaker 02 You're gonna just put your hand right in the center of your chest. I want you to do this with me right now. Okay, you ready? And I want you to press so that you can feel it in there. And then you're gonna take in a deep breath. And the reason why we're gonna take in a deep breath, and we're just gonna do it for like four seconds, and then we're gonna exhale a longer breath. Let's do this together. So I like to close my eyes. We're gonna press in. We're gonna take a deep breath in. Here we go.
11:05 Speaker 02 Now let's breathe it out.
11:11 Speaker 02 And then you're gonna say to yourself, "I'm okay." "Okay." "I'm safe." "I'm safe." "I'm loved." "I'm loved." "And I'm capable of doing this." "And I'm capable of doing this." How do you feel?
11:29 Speaker 02 Free. Let me explain what just happened, because there's a little bit of science involved here. First of all, by taking action, we stopped you from thinking.
11:42 Speaker 02 So when you literally say to yourself, okay, you put your hand on your heart, and this is where the vagus nerve is. This is the on-off switch. And you press in. You are now taking action, which means you're dropping into your body and getting out of your head. Wow. When you breathe in, and you know, there's a lot of breathing techniques. You can Google them. It doesn't matter really. You can breathe in for four seconds, five seconds, whatever. The most important part is breathe out longer.
12:10 Speaker 02 Because when you breathe out longer... You're pushing it out. You're pushing it out. Yes. And you're signaling on that exhale that you're actually in control. Yes, and you're releasing. Yes. Yes. Yes. And when you say those mantras to yourself, "I'm okay, I'm safe, I'm loved, and I am capable."
12:30 Speaker 02 In that moment, you actually are.
12:33 Oprah Winfrey? That's right, and the only moment you're ever living is this one right here now, yes.
12:37 Speaker 02 Yes, and there's one more tool I'm gonna give you, and this comes from research at Harvard. I want you before any presentation or any work thing that makes you nervous to say, "I'm excited. I'm really excited to give this presentation." Yep, "I'm really excited to go in and talk to this client. I'm really excited to do this thing." Because the interesting thing about the research is anxiety and nerves is the exact same physiological thing as excitement. Butterflies in the stomach, you get them both times. Sweaty armpits, nervous excitement. Racing heart, anxiety, excitement. So your body doesn't know the difference between something that excites you and something that actually makes you nervous or anxious.
13:19 Oprah Winfrey? So instead of saying, "Oh, gosh, I'm so nervous, I'm so nervous, I'm so nervous." "I'm really excited."
13:24 Speaker 02 Correct.
13:24 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah. Leah, doesn't that make sense?
13:27 Speaker 04 Absolutely. It changes the way that I feel and the moments that I'm experiencing.
13:31 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
13:32 Speaker 02 And here's another cool thing. You know why people get butterflies in their stomach, Oprah and Leah? I'm gonna tell you why. Because when you go into a stress response, or you feel a little wave of anxiety,
13:42 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
13:42 Speaker 02 it's signaling to your body, first of all, your fight-or-flight mechanism kicks in. The amygdala takes over, and your stress response is now engaged. And it has a really important purpose, because it's making you pay attention. At the same time, your biology changes. So the blood that is flowing through your entire body now goes to your heart and your brain to get you ready to do the thing. It's organizing you. And so, the reason why you have butterflies is the blood is leaving your digestive tract.
14:14 Oprah Winfrey? Ah.
14:15 Speaker 02 The reason why you always have to pee before a presentation is if you're gonna have to run or do something, you don't need a full bladder. This is your body getting ready, and most of us, because we go up to our heads and we separate-
14:27 Oprah Winfrey? That's why I have to pee.
14:29 Speaker 02 Yes.
14:29 Oprah Winfrey? Okay.
14:30 Speaker 02 Yes. Most of us separate from self and separate from power.
14:34 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
14:35 Speaker 02 And we go up into our heads and we go, "Oh, my God, I got butterflies. I'm gonna screw this thing up." And, no. Your body's just changing its chemistry to help you actually pay attention so you can do the thing you were planning on doing.
14:46 Oprah Winfrey? Well, I just love the, okay, I'm okay, I am safe, I am loved, I'm capable, I am loved. I just, I just think that's powerful. And I know you're gonna take that away as a wonderful gem here today. Yes.
15:00 Speaker 04 Absolutely. I definitely have a new thing to say every day when I wake up.
15:03 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you.
15:03 Speaker 02 Awesome.
15:04 Oprah Winfrey? Thanks, Leah. And you don't lose your edge with that.
15:07 Speaker 02 No.
15:07 Oprah Winfrey? You will not lose your edge.
15:09 Speaker 02 You actually gain it.
15:10 Oprah Winfrey? You gain it. You gain it. Thanks, Leah. Thank you so much for joining me on the Oprah Podcast. We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, more life-changing anxiety strategies from the incomparable Mel Robbins. And later...
15:24 Speaker 02 And the decision that changed my life was the decision to get out of bed that morning.
15:30 Oprah Winfrey? How Mel's rock-bottom moment became one of her greatest gifts. Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm so happy to meet up with you here. Mel Robbins' book, The Let Them Theory, has been flying off the shelves. And now she's here to tackle some of your questions about a topic that I know is on a lot of people's minds, and that is anxiety. Will is a 22-year-old senior studying mathematics at the University of Chicago. Will, hi.
15:59 Speaker 03 Hey, Oprah. Hey, Mel. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
16:03 Oprah Winfrey? How does anxiety show up for you?
16:04 Speaker 03 Yeah, so I think my primary experience with anxiety, or at least kind of the fever pitch moment of it, was in high school. I had all these social insecurities and academic worries. And so, I mean, what Mel said really resonated with me because it kind of just manifested into this, like, amorphous blob of anxiety and fear. I kind of compare it to like a low-budget horror movie. Like, something stalking me around the corner, and it sounds so scary, but like, if I actually peer around the corner and, you know, just put it down as regular problems, it's really not that scary. And so that's really how it's shown up for me. And in college, too, as well as high school. And so my question is, I think my generation, honestly, even my younger brother's generation, too, kind
16:46 Speaker 03 of has this instant gratification culture with social media and the like. And so I'm kind of curious, Mel and Oprah as well, what tools does the next generation need to cope with anxiety?
16:59 Speaker 02 You're not gonna like this. And this is for every generation. Because what makes anxiety worse are lifestyle decisions. When you look at your phone for six hours a day, which is what the research says the average person does, you are not, you're disconnected from self. And you are connected to a device that is designed based on the algorithms to give you intermittent dopamine rewards. One of the reasons why most people scroll constantly, and you've been talking a lot about this, Oprah, is that you don't see something great all the time. So you're looking for that hit, that fix, that thing? Yes, and because it's intermittent, it keeps you on it looking for the next thing.
17:42 Speaker 02 So number one, you have to get off your phone. Because you're disconnected from self when you're on your phone. Number two, most people stay inside all day. One way to connect to self and connect to power is get outside and take a walk. The research is very clear that a 10-minute walk without your phone, without listening to something, actually connects you back to yourself. It opens up new ways of thinking. Anybody that feels anxious, if you take a walk for 10 minutes outside, you will actually have your mind stop racing. There's a concept called forward ambulation, which is the motion of things passing that opens up your mind. And so, sleep. Have you been getting sleep? Are you drinking?
18:24 Speaker 02 Because the number one symptom of a hangover is actually anxiety in the morning. Wow. Because as you're processing alcohol over the night, and processing that, your blood sugar drops, and that combined with the rise of the cortisol stress hormone in the morning, creates the anxiety that is part of a hangover. Wow, I did not know that. Did you?
18:47 Speaker 03 I mean, I feel like with college students, it comes up a lot, that people go out and then they have homework to do the next day. But I kind of, I guess, I've conflated the two between homework and...
18:57 Speaker 02 Well, what's exciting about this is if you ask, if you're somebody who is feeling anxious because, or the alarm in your body is ringing a lot, ask yourself, am I getting enough sleep? Do I get outside once a day? Am I off my phone? Am I cutting back on the drinking?
19:14 Oprah Winfrey? I see people outside, they're literally, they can't cross the street. They're on the phones, crossing the street.
19:19 Speaker 02 But I'm saying this not to be like a pain. I'm saying this because there are metabolic and lifestyle choices that actually spike your anxiety. And if you're truly interested in reconnecting with yourself and getting out of your head and flipping from this fight or flight nervous system into the parasympathetic nervous system, which is your calm nervous system, you have power. And so if you're anxious about something that you can identify, that means that you're actually functioning in a healthy way. Because you're having a normal stress response to being at a very, you know, competitive college. It's normal to feel stressed out. You should, you have a lot of work.
20:02 Speaker 02 But if it's really impacting your life over and over and over again, you need to start to look at your lifestyle choices. Because those are actually making the anxiety worse because they keep you up in your head and they keep you disconnected from the things in your life that actually ground you.
20:19 Oprah Winfrey? Well, I'm curious about the pressure you feel as a young man today in college and the pressure some of your friends might be expressing as, you know, men functioning in the world today.
20:35 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think that one thing that men in my generation, but honestly in all generations, kind of struggle with is taking care of our mental health like we do our physical health.
20:45 Oprah Winfrey? Do you all talk about it? Does anybody talk about it?
20:48 Speaker 03 I think it's very hard for men to get into spaces where they can feel comfortable and safe talking about it. And I don't think it has to be so scary. I take anti-anxiety medication on a low dosage and I go to therapy. And I think they're wonderful things. And I treat them like I'm taking a protein shake or going to the gym. But for my mental health instead of my physical health. And a lot of my friends, I think, have trouble kind of opening up that mental side as if it makes them less of a man. There are all sorts of crazy, like, talking points you can fall into there. And I think it's silly because I think we become stronger when we take care of our brains, too. And so I think that the struggle is getting men into spaces where they can feel comfortable talking about it.
21:28 Oprah Winfrey? Do you feel comfortable talking about it with your friends?
21:32 Speaker 03 I think so. I have some friends.
21:33 Oprah Winfrey? Like what you just shared here with us so openly. Have you shared that with your friends, your male friends?
21:39 Speaker 03 Yeah, I have a few friends in my fraternity, which is a group of men who, of course, I feel very comfortable talking about with. My emotions and my anxieties and my stress. But I think that's rare for men. And I think it's something that I'd, you know, like to see men be able to do more often.
21:56 Oprah Winfrey? Well, thank you. Thank you for being so open with us today. Thanks.
21:59 Speaker 03 Of course.
21:59 Oprah Winfrey? Thanks, and good luck in school.
22:02 Speaker 03 Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
22:04 Speaker 02 One thing I wanted to say about medication is that there is a lot of stigma around taking it. And here's how I look at it. You wouldn't feel bad about taking insulin if you were diabetic?
22:15 Oprah Winfrey? You wouldn't.
22:16 Speaker 02 Withholding-
22:17 Oprah Winfrey? You'd be grateful to have it.
22:18 Speaker 02 Correct. Withholding a medication that can help you get out of a hole or serve as a bridge to healing, withholding that from yourself is a form of self-harm.
22:31 Oprah Winfrey? Hmm, powerful.
22:33 Speaker 02 And so I'm proud of you for showing up and talking about it. And I'm proud of you for recognizing that this is a moment in your life where you need the support of that.
22:42 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
22:43 Speaker 02 And by just having somebody show up and talk about it and normalize it, it does help people understand that-
22:50 Oprah Winfrey? I think that's another powerful way of looking at it, that withholding it from yourself is actually causing self-harm, is another form of self-harm. Yes. Good to be reminded of that. You're listening to my conversation with Mel Robbins on the Oprah Podcast. When we come back, what you can learn from one of the biggest mistakes Mel made as a mother.
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23:42 Oprah Winfrey? Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I am so glad you're sharing your valuable time with us here today. And Mel Robbins is here with some hard-earned advice for a mom who struggles with a lifelong legacy of anxiety. Stephanie, hi. I know you work with children with special needs and you're in Louisiana.
24:05 Speaker 06 I am.
24:05 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, and you say anxiety is your superpower. That's what the producer told me. Tell me why.
24:13 Speaker 06 I had to come to that point in my life to where it became that. Of course, when it first showed up in my life when I was six years old, I didn't know what was going on. I did have some stressors that were going on that were out of my control, which I think contributed to the anxiety showing up. I think I was also predisposed. I come from a long line of anxious women. But, you know, I had to push myself to do things, you know, that shouldn't have been hard. And I remember having conversations with myself at such a young age saying, okay, I'm
24:52 Speaker 06 either gonna let this conquer me and I'm gonna just lie down and, you know, give up, or I'm gonna have to push through and really show what I'm made of. Because it was bad. So I started viewing it as my superpower because I knew that I was gonna have to look at it that way, or it was going to destroy me. You know, I started taking medication in my late twenties to help with my anxiety, and it was a game changer. I have a 12-year-old daughter now, who two weeks ago, we made the difficult but very
25:33 Speaker 06 necessary decision to put her on anxiety medication as well. And my question is, what conversation should I have with her about this? And what should I share with her about my journey with anxiety?
25:51 Speaker 02 Well, this is a tough one, because I really screwed this up. As a mother, I take full responsibility for making my child's anxiety 100 times worse.
26:06 Speaker 02 A hundred times worse. The single best thing you could do for your daughter is to get control of and heal your anxiety. Because if you are somebody who is anxious, and let's break apart, what is the definition of anxiety? I call it an alarm, thanks to Dr. Russell Kennedy. But it is really a moment where you feel uncertain, and then you doubt your capability to handle it. That's all that it is. And so, I'm not a therapist, I'm not a medical doctor. I am a woman who has struggled profoundly with anxiety, and because I didn't get control of it, I actually made my daughter's anxiety worse. She would come down, because she didn't want to stay in her bedroom at night, and she would then climb in bed with me.
26:49 Speaker 02 And it just kept happening, and happening, and happening, because she would put up a fuss, and then that would trigger my anxiety, and my alarm system, and I didn't know how to handle it. So, she slept on the floor of my bedroom, for almost a year. And here's the thing, do you want to know what you, what I taught my daughter by allowing her to do that? I taught her, you're not capable Yes, that's what you're saying. of facing something that's difficult. That's what you say, and let them. Yes, and so here's what I want you to do. I am so happy that you're getting her help, but I want you to really double down on the fact that you are capable, you, yes, you, are capable. You are capable of facing moments in your life that feel difficult.
27:33 Speaker 02 You are capable of facing things that scare you. And when you do that... Not only are you capable, you have. Correct. You have done it, you have done it. You have done it, and so, I don't want you to tell her it's your superpower. I want you to go deep into healing and turning this alarm off, and reminding yourself in every moment, you are capable, I have been capable, I can quiet this, I can be the woman in this lineage that actually heals this. And I can do this, because I'm not going to allow my daughters to learn this as a coping strategy in moments of uncertainty.
28:16 Speaker 02 And so I want you to take an approach that, look, I screwed this up, that's why I'm trying to save you from like, doing this. I really did, like, she got to the point where she didn't want to go to school. She got to the point where I couldn't leave and go anywhere. She had to be near me, because I taught her... Through me not putting my arm around her, and that's how I want you to think about this. Put your arm around her and walk with her and say, "I know this is scary. I know this feels uncomfortable, and I'm gonna be by your side, but you are capable of facing this, honey." And the calmer you are,
28:58 Speaker 02 the more she's gonna believe it. What's coming up for you right now?
29:05 Speaker 06 Well, you know, we are going through the not wanting to go to school, the stomach aches. About two months ago, the school called and said, you know, "You've gotta come get her." She was in class, felt like she got in trouble, and couldn't get it together.
29:26 Speaker 02 Can I make another suggestion? This is really important. Have you ever been tested for ADHD?
29:34 Speaker 06 Um, yes, I'm very ADHD.
29:36 Speaker 02 Okay, so this is why I'm gonna say something. There is an entire lost generation of women, Oprah, that have been diagnosed with anxiety in their teens and their twenties, and the underlying problem was dyslexia, dysgraphia, or ADHD. When they studied-
29:54 Speaker 06 And she has auditory processing disorder.
29:57 Speaker 02 Okay, so here's what I want you to understand. You have a child who is facing a lot of stress,
30:05 Speaker 02 and the response to auditory disorders and neurodivergent issues, the response of feeling an alarm means she's mentally well.
30:18 Speaker 02 I'm serious about this. Like, we gotta, we gotta stop looking at somebody's nerves as a sign that something's wrong. If you're in a stressful situation because you sit in a classroom and it's hard for you to focus, it means you're mentally well. And so you're doing an incredible job as a mom because you're talking to the professionals and you are getting her the support that she deserves and that's fantastic. And what you have an opportunity to do is to also build the resilience in her by reminding her that this stress is gonna keep coming up, honey, because this is a thing that we're gonna work on together, but you're capable.
30:59 Oprah Winfrey? Okay, so when she said, Stephanie was saying earlier, should she tell her about how much she should tell her about her story?
31:07 Speaker 02 I would tell her your story and I would tell her that you understand how difficult this is Right. and that you have learned to face things that are very difficult and that you have become very strong and that you know she is and that you're gonna be there every step of the way, but the leading psychologist, Dr. Luana Marquez at Harvard Medical School, the number one symptom when somebody starts really struggling in the way that you're talking about, particularly children, is avoidance.
31:42 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
31:43 Speaker 02 Avoidance. And instead of running from things...
31:47 Oprah Winfrey? Avoidance or doing what you did, trying to fix it? You don't wanna be the bad mom. She wants to sleep in the same room with you, so it's like, come on. Otherwise you feel bad saying, "Go back to your bed."
31:56 Speaker 02 Right, and that's the same thing. It's avoidance. You're avoiding having to go through this with her. I want you to understand you have the ability to rise.
32:05 Speaker 02 You have the ability in these moments to really recognize, okay, you know, we've got the stress response happening and I'm gonna remind my daughter she is capable and we can rise together through this. And you're gonna tell her your story, simply to say, "I know how difficult this is." You're not gonna add any more drama on it and you're gonna say, "And I also know that you're stronger than you feel right now."
32:28 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
32:28 Speaker 02 "And I'm gonna be there with you." "And I also know that you can do this." And when you display that calmness, she is gonna feel that and believe it. And it's gonna take time. Like you have to give yourself so much grace.
32:43 Speaker 02 But you can do this.
32:44 Oprah Winfrey? You can do this.
32:46 Speaker 06 Yes, and she's taught me so much, you know, through this. And I am just so thankful for you guys and talking about this because there, you know, it's a lonely place to be whenever you struggle with anxiety. And I think I didn't talk to her about it and I haven't really, you know, gotten in depth talking to her about it because in some crazy way, I thought I was protecting her because if I didn't give her the idea that this could be an issue, it wouldn't happen to her, you know, and this wasn't happening. She just had a, she just had an episode.
33:26 Oprah Winfrey? Well, now you know better. Now you know better.
33:29 Speaker 06 I know better.
33:29 Oprah Winfrey? And I think, I think what's been shared here will help you begin to develop the tools to do better. That is, that is what my hope is for you. Thank you so much, Stephanie.
33:41 Speaker 06 Thank you so much.
33:41 Oprah Winfrey? All right. Thank you. We're going to take a quick break and when we come back.
33:46 Speaker 02 So if you're waking up in the morning and the first thing you experience is anxiety, it is a sign of stored trauma.
33:53 Oprah Winfrey? Mel shares the single thing you can do today to reduce your own anxiety. Plus, how Mel went from $800,000 in debt to bestselling author and podcasting superstar.
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34:35 Oprah Winfrey? Welcome back and thank you again for listening. Coming up, Mel's number one recommendation for anyone looking to add stillness to their lives and quiet your anxious mind.
34:49 Oprah Winfrey? Can we talk for a moment about how we began to process the barrage of negative news and everything that shows up on our phones? I think it's really overwhelming to a lot of people and creating anxiety for people. I know, I've just shut it down. So, how do we start doing this for ourselves? Like, is there a certain amount of time every day we should put the phone down?
35:19 Speaker 02 So, there's a difference between being informed and inundated. And if there's something really important happening in the world, people will be talking about it. So you do not need to be checking the news.
35:31 Oprah Winfrey? That is the truth.
35:33 Speaker 02 And right now-
35:33 Oprah Winfrey? I'm gonna hear it from Gail eventually, yes.
35:36 Speaker 02 No, but I mean it. Watching Gail is one thing. Reading the headlines on your phone is a totally different game. Because those headlines are written as a way to bait you to stay online more. Why?
35:47 Oprah Winfrey? That's right.
35:47 Speaker 02 Because they make money when you stay online.
35:49 Oprah Winfrey? The headlines are baited to get you to go to read the whole story. And you become so distracted.
35:55 Speaker 02 Yes, and also, the more you stay online, the more money platforms make. So they're incented to write scary headlines because it entices you to click because of something called the curiosity gap. So it is critical that you understand that the phone and the internet is a tool, but you've become the tool. And if you don't have boundaries with your phone, and I'm only gonna give you one of them. Because most people won't listen to this anyway. And then they're gonna complain about how stressed out and overwhelmed they are. The number one tool is this: don't you ever, ever, ever sleep with your phone. You have to put your phone in the bathroom. And the reason is simple. I'm not even gonna talk about all the studies about how the phone in the room simply next to you interrupts your sleep.
36:40 Speaker 02 I'm gonna talk about something that happens when you wake up. So the phone's next to you, right? And you're lying in bed. And so, you know, the alarm goes off-
36:50 Oprah Winfrey? And you pick up the phone.
36:51 Speaker 02 And here you are.
36:53 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
36:54 Speaker 02 You aren't even vertical yet.
36:59 Speaker 02 And you have just allowed the world news and a thousand strangers on Instagram You are so right. to walk into your bedroom. You're checking emails and text messages and you wonder why you're stressed out and exhausted. You're not even out of bed and you have put all this other stuff in your brain, which means you are now the last thing on the list. And if you lay there and start scrolling and it activates your stress response. It absolutely takes longer to get out of bed. Correct. And anxiety is higher for people in the morning, Oprah. And there are scientific reasons why this is true. And by the way, I also want to share something because I think it's important to know that
37:41 Speaker 02 if you grew up in a traumatic household, or you experienced abuse, poverty, bigotry, racism when you were little, you had a chaotic experience, you would wake up in the house and you didn't know what was going to happen. Right, right, right. You're going into a school. As you know, because of the work that you've done with Dr. Bruce Perry, this is stored trauma. So if you're waking up in the morning and the first thing you experience is anxiety, it is a sign of stored trauma. That's why a lot of people have anxiety first thing in the morning. It's stored trauma. Yes.
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38:47 Speaker 02 Yes, and laying in bed and staring at the ceiling. This was my rock bottom moment. When I was 41 years old, my husband and I found ourselves $800,000 in debt. And...
39:01 Speaker 02 I lost my job. We had three kids under the age of 10. And I could not get out of bed. The alarm would ring. And it was like, the anxiety was a gravity blanket. I would lay there like a human pot roast, marinating in my problems and my fears. Like, how are we gonna get out of this? And I'd start thinking about it. Meaning, I'm ruminating now on the problems.
39:22 Oprah Winfrey? This is how the 5-4-3-2-1 theory came about?
39:24 Speaker 02 Yes. And so, one night, I got this idea. It's divine intervention. I was giving myself a pep talk. I don't know if you've ever gotten to a point in your life where things are really so low, you're talking to yourself out loud?
39:37 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
39:38 Speaker 02 I mean, that's a low moment.
39:40 Oprah Winfrey? That is.
39:40 Speaker 02 And I'm like, that's it, Mel. Tomorrow morning, woman, it's a new you. You know, you gotta stop drinking so much. You gotta, you gotta stop screaming at your husband. You gotta call your parents. You gotta get a job. You gotta get these kids on the bus. And by God, woman, when that alarm rings, you have got to get out of bed. You cannot hit that snooze button six times. And at that moment, a rocket ship launched across the television screen. And I was like, it's a sign from God.
40:07 Oprah Winfrey? Five, four, three, two, one, go.
40:13 Speaker 02 When that alarm rings, you're gonna move so fast, you're not gonna be in that bed when that anxiety hits. And that very next morning, it was a Tuesday in February in 2008, outside of Boston, Massachusetts. Your one decision from a different life. And the decision that changed my life was the decision to get out of bed that morning.
40:39 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
40:39 Speaker 02 And there is this moment of hesitation. It's, it's this window of time, Oprah, where you have this thought, right? Where you know what you should or could do. And you stop and you think about whether or not you want to. And it's in this five-second window of thinking, you go up
40:58 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
40:58 Speaker 02 about what you wanna do and whether or not you feel like doing it.
41:01 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:03 Speaker 02 I don't wanna, I don't, I don't, how's this gonna help? This is where anxiety comes in. This is where all the stress comes, this is where procrastination comes in. And so, that morning...
41:14 Speaker 02 I remembered the rocket launch, but I stopped and I started to think. And this moment of hesitation opens up. And I felt myself reaching for the snooze button like I had done so many mornings. Because I was in this anxiety cycle, which makes you avoid things. It makes you run away from things.
41:30 Oprah Winfrey? Was this before or after the TED Talk where you had a panic attack?
41:32 Speaker 02 Oh, it was way before. This is what led to it.
41:34 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
41:34 Speaker 02 So I literally felt myself going, how's this gonna help? I made $800,000 in debt. I don't feel like getting up. I'm so anxious. How's this? And then I went 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and I stood up.
41:48 Speaker 02 And something interesting happened. When you move, you move from here to here.
41:55 Oprah Winfrey? From here to here.
41:56 Speaker 02 You stop thinking and you do.
41:58 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
41:59 Speaker 02 And the action overrides the swirling thoughts and sensation and reconnects you with your power. And that was the beginning of an entirely new life. It was how I started to cure my anxiety and heal it and stop responding to uncertainty by doubting my capacity and capability to deal with it. And anybody can develop this skill where you find yourself in a moment where you hesitate and you start to doubt yourself and you start to feel anxious. And you just go 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and you push through it and you take the next right step. And that first step is counting backwards. And what I know now, because this is spread around the world, it is used in clinical settings.
42:42 Speaker 02 It's incredible for OCD and PTSD. I know of over 1,000 people who have stopped themselves from committing suicide.
42:49 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
42:49 Speaker 02 Because they counted 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 in that moment after they hesitated.
42:56 Oprah Winfrey? And also what you shared with us today, to be able to...
42:59 Speaker 02 Put your hand on the heart. And you can lay in bed if you feel yourself swirling and go, "I'm okay. I'm safe. I'm loved. And I'm capable."
43:08 Speaker 02 Five, four, three, two, one.
43:10 Oprah Winfrey? Let's go.
43:11 Speaker 02 Let's go. And the action proves that you are. The action quiets the mind. The action aligns the emotion in your body with forward momentum. And just like a domino, that first one that tips can tip the second one, but those two then can tip something 10 times its size.
43:31 Oprah Winfrey? And move you in a different direction.
43:32 Speaker 02 Correct.
43:33 Oprah Winfrey? Absolutely.
43:33 Speaker 02 And so I counted five, four, three, two, one all day long, every day. And it became a tool to help me push through those moments of anxiety.
43:41 Oprah Winfrey? Avoid procrastination.
43:42 Speaker 02 Correct.
43:42 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
43:43 Speaker 02 Correct. And that's what turned my life around.
43:47 Oprah Winfrey? Well, thank you for being Mel Robbins, who's turning so many other lives around. Thank you for your book, Let Them. And I thank you, Leah, and Will, and Stephanie, for being vulnerable and sharing with us. You all had great questions for Mel. So Mel's phenomenal book, bestseller it is. We knew it would be. The Let Them Theory is available now, wherever you buy your books. And of course, she's the host of the hugely popular, so popular, Mel Robbins Podcast. Thanks again, Mel. I always love talking to you.
44:21 Speaker 02 Well, I always love talking to you, and I love seeing you dominating in the podcast charts. Welcome.
44:28 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.
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