#599 - Sam Altman

Sam Altman is an entrepreneur, investor and CEO of the artificial intelligence company OpenAI, known for their popular program ChatGPT. Theo joins Sam at the OpenAI office in San Francisco to talk about the pros and cons of developing AI so rapidly, how these new technologies will change our idea of “work” forever, and the ethical debate around the merging of man and machine. Sam Altman: https://x.com/sama ------------------------------------------------ Tour Dates! https://theovon.com/tour New Merch: https://www.theovonstore.com ------------------------------------------------- Sponsored By: Celsius: Go to the Celsius Amazon store to check out all of their flavors. #CELSIUSBrandPartner #CELSIUSLiveFit https://amzn.to/3HbAtPJ Moonpay: Head over to https://www.moonpay.com/THEO to sign up! Armra: Go to http://tryarmra.com/THEO or enter THEO to get 15% off your first order. Netsuite: If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, download the free e-book “Navigating Global Trade: 3 Insights for Leaders” at http://netsuite.com/THEO ------------------------------------------------- Music: “Shine” by Bishop Gunn Bishop Gunn - Shine ------------------------------------------------ Submit your funny videos, TikToks, questions and topics you'd like to hear on the podcast to: [email protected] Hit the Hotline: 985-664-9503 Video Hotline for Theo Upload here: https://www.theovon.com/fan-upload Send mail to: This Past Weekend 1906 Glen Echo Rd PO Box #159359 Nashville, TN 37215 ------------------------------------------------ Find Theo: Website: https://theovon.com Instagram: https://instagram.com/theovon Facebook: https://facebook.com/theovon Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thispastweekend Twitter: https://twitter.com/theovon YouTube: https://youtube.com/theovon Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheoVonClips Shorts Channel: https://bit.ly/3ClUj8z ------------------------------------------------ Producer: Zach https://www.instagram.com/zachdpowers Producer: Trevyn https://www.instagram.com/trevyn.s/ Producer: Nick https://www.instagram.com/realnickdavis/ Producer: Andrew https://www.instagram.com/bleachmediaofficial/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Theo Von?

  You ever realize that you spent your entire morning thinking about lunch? It's 9 a.m. and somehow I'm already in negotiations with myself about how I'm gonna spend $20 on a sandwich at noon. And then I eat it, or you eat it, or somebody eats it, and then an hour later, you're just standing in the kitchen worrying about what you'll do for dinner. And that's one reason why I've been into Huell. The Black Edition Powder is a complete meal you have instead of food, not a shake on top of food. Their powder starts at less than $3 per meal, has 40 grams of protein, and mixes with water or milk in about 30 seconds. I like Huell's shakes because they're clean and it's quick.

• 0:41Theo Von?

  I just want to make sure I have everything I need to keep going the way I want to keep going in a healthy manner. So with Huell, basically, lunch went from a daily logistical problem to a thing I can solve in about 30 seconds. Make healthy eating simple. New customers get an exclusive offer of 15% off online with my code WEEKEND at huell.com/weekend. That's H-U-E-L dot com slash weekend. Thank you to Huell for partnering and supporting our show. Today's guest is, uh, well, dude's a straight-up tech lord, let's be honest. He's, uh, he's one of the leaders, the world leaders in the development of AI.

• 1:24Theo Von?

  He started OpenAI, which is known for, uh, having ChatGPT. We had a fascinating chat about the pros and cons, um, the fears and hopes, everything I could learn about, uh, about artificial intelligence and where we're headed. TBD, baby. Today's guest is Mr. Sam Altman, and I'm very thankful for his time.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  You know, we had a residential architect do this office. We wanted it to feel like someone's like really comfortable, like country house or something like that.

• 2:10Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Not like the big corporate like sci fi castle.

• 2:14Theo Von?

  Yeah, that's what I was, I was like a little bit like, oh, is it gonna be, you know, will there be a drawbridge? Will we be uploaded into a suite? Like, what will happen to us?

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, we don't want that. We're going for like residential.

• 2:24Theo Von?

  Yeah, I was like, how do we even get through the firewall? How many like hit points will we need to get through? You know, it got very Dungeons and Dragons in some of my like imagination sometimes.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  We want people to feel like super comfortable and try to get pretty far in that direction.

• 2:39Theo Von?

  It feels like it. Your staff's very sweet, nice people.

• 2:43Theo Von?

  You have, thanks for hanging out, man.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:45Theo Von?

  Really appreciate it.

• 2:48Theo Von?

  Yeah, I haven't seen you since I fell out of my chair.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  You fell out of a chair at the inauguration. That was really like quite a way to meet you.

• 2:52Theo Von?

  Yeah, I felt so embarrassed. And you were one of the faces that I looked up and saw and I was like, God. And that was my first moment, like AI built us a better chair, to be honest with you.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  And you did nothing, right? You were just sitting there and it just collapsed.

• 3:04Theo Von?

  Nothing.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  I remember that.

• 3:06Theo Von?

  And it was just so embarrassing. I was like, oh, of all people, me, and here I am in this place.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  I think it was perfect because everybody's got to have some story. And people are like, oh, what was the inauguration? Like, everybody's got to have some story to tell.

• 3:16Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  And that was an incredible story for us all to tell.

• 3:19Theo Von?

  That's a good point. I do remember looking at people for help, though. And oddly, your eyes, I was like, oh, my God, he could help. You did look like a beacon of help in the distance.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  I tried to help.

• 3:30Theo Von?

  You have a baby? You have a new?

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:32Theo Von?

  Child?

• 3:34Speaker 01

  It is.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  There have been like a lot of experiences in life where everyone tells you something's gonna be great. And then it's like, okay, the people are right, the consensus is right. It's like even better than I thought it was going to be. But this has been the strongest example of that ever. Like, I knew it was gonna be great. And it's like way, way better. It's impossible to describe. There's nothing I can say that's not like very cliche. And it's totally amazing.

• 3:57Theo Von?

  What is like one of your, and it's a, you have a young boy?

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:00Theo Von?

  And what's something like that you think is like need or like, what's one thing that kind of like is bringing you joy with it?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Watching the speed with which he like learns new things or gains new capabilities?

• 4:15Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  It's just unbelievable. It's like every day, it's like, oh, man, he just couldn't do that before. And now he's like grabbing stuff and passing it between his hands and getting to like, watch it day to day is just an amazing rate of change. And then I don't like, again, I realize it's like.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  I realized that like everything about babies are very finely tuned over a long period of evolution to make us like love them and be fascinated by them. And it's like a neurochemical hack, but I love it. It's great. It's so strong. It's so intense.

• 4:45Theo Von?

  So it's really like almost like a coffee for your heart or something kind of?

• 4:50Speaker 01

  I don't even know how to find. I've tried to like come up with analogy to tell because now I'm like telling everybody you gotta have a lot of kids. It's really important.

• 4:55Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  And I've been looking for an analogy of what to explain. And then I always just say like, I don't know how to explain this. It's just, it is the best thing I've ever done by far. I feel like a completely changed person. And I was, I was like thinking the other day, like

• 5:12Speaker 01

  there used to be all these other, like at this point, all I do is work and hang out with my family. I like, I don't, I don't like really get to do a lot of hobbies anymore.

• 5:19Theo Von?

  Right.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Busy time at work. I don't get to hang out with my friends that much.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  And I, and I don't, you know, there were like all these things where people tell you like, oh, you got a baby coming. You gotta go, you know, take that spontaneous international trip. Cause you're not gonna be doing that again for a long time. And I was like, oh, that is kind of sad. In practice, you don't do it that often. I at least didn't do it that often. And I don't miss it at all. I like remember that that used to be a possibility. Now I can see that's not gonna be a possibility for a long time. And I'm thrilled with the trade.

• 5:45Theo Von?

  You're moved on.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  I'm so happy.

• 5:47Theo Von?

  Um, how old is your child?

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Four months.

• 5:49Theo Von?

  Oh, that's a funny, like at five or six months, they start to get like fun and you can like, they're still like, they can't go anywhere, you know? But they're like intrigued and stuff. They start to like smile or process more. I don't know how you guys say it, but um.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's totally like turned on now.

• 6:04Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Really aware, understands things. It's super cool.

• 6:06Theo Von?

  I have a thought sometimes that this will be one of the last, like maybe 40 years that we conceive children in the body. Did you have any thoughts about that?

• 6:17Speaker 01

  I've definitely heard a lot of people say that.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  I haven't thought about it hard myself, but yeah, I guess it does make sense like. I guess that does make sense.

• 6:29Theo Von?

  Like, God, you were in your mom's butt. It's crazy, you know?

• 6:31Speaker 01

  It is crazy.

• 6:32Theo Von?

  You pervert or whatever. Like, like, I think in the future, people will be, it'll be kind of done like in a.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  In a vat or something.

• 6:37Theo Von?

  Yes. In like a nice vat. You can go see it on the weekends or whatever. And like.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Doesn't that just feel like off to you? Like, I can totally intellectually like, understand that that may be the better way to do it.

• 6:48Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah, it feels way off to me. I was trying to, I thought you would like it. You know, I thought, I thought.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 6:54Theo Von?

  Like, or I thought that would be like a thought, like, I guess, like, that, for me, that's one of like my futuristic thoughts, you know?

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Like, I can totally accept that that will be what everybody does and that it's, you know, easier and we can like, make it healthier for the child and the mother.

• 7:09Theo Von?

  Yes.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  The mother doesn't take the health risk, but, but man. So intellectually, I can say that. And then like emotionally, it feels like, ah, something is off.

• 7:18Theo Von?

  Feels off.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:20Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Cause then the family, like on the weekends, the parents would come and like tinker on the glass or whatever, or their dad would put like a, um, you know, like a go Falcon sticker on the thing, or you know what I'm saying? People would like decorate it all up or write little messages on there.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  You know, I think there's another, like another take I have on all of this is that there,

• 7:40Speaker 01

  in this world that we're heading to of like crazy sci-fi technology becoming reality, the, the sort of like, the deeply human things will become the most precious sacred valued things. And they will really care about like the human experience more than ever. And maybe it won't go that way. I don't know.

• 7:55Theo Von?

  Yeah. Do you, uh, no, and that's some of the stuff we want to talk about. And thanks, thanks so much, man, for sitting down. Do you think your child will go to college? Do you think like, what do you kind of think that looks like?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Probably not. Um, if I had to guess, like, I think, well, I only went to half of college.

• 8:12Theo Von?

  You, you dropped, did you drop out?

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:14Theo Von?

  Dude, you guys all, I freaking dropped out. I didn't get shit. You dropped out, Wang dropped out, Zuckerberg dropped out. Um, probably a lot of other people.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  And you.

• 8:23Theo Von?

  Yeah. Well, hey, we're both here, so.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Oh, it worked out fine.

• 8:27Theo Von?

  Yeah, you're right.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  You know?

• 8:29Theo Von?

  You're right. Never mind. I'm sorry. I'm being self-defeating.

• 8:33Theo Von?

  Yeah, what does that look like when you think about that? Like, yeah, with AI, with so much new information coming online, right? And so much like data being collected and like information being car-pooled and maybe which is a term.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  So you and I never grew up in a world that didn't have computers.

• 8:50Theo Von?

  Right.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Like, and our parents were like, oh, this, there weren't computers, and then there were, and it was this big crazy adjustment. It took them a long time to figure it out. But to us, like, computers just always existed. They were just, I mean, maybe they were kind of new, but they were always around. And, and then like, you know, a kid that is like, there was, there was this video on YouTube I saw, like, maybe 12 years ago, something like that, that 14 years ago, that has really stuck with me. It was like a little baby in a dentist's waiting room or something, picking up one of those old glossy magazines and going like this.

• 9:21Theo Von?

  Oh, I remember that.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  And to that kid, it was just like a broken iPad, because that kid had just like grown up in a world where like there were touchscreens everywhere. And my kid will never grow up, will never ever be smarter than an AI.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  That will never happen. You know, kid born a few years ago, they had a brief period of time. My kid never will be smarter. But also, they'll never, they'll never know a world where like products and services aren't way smarter than them. And, and super capable. They can just do whatever you need. And in that world, I think education's gonna feel very different. I already think college is like, maybe not working great for most people. But, yeah, I think fast forward 18 years, it's gonna look like a very, very different thing.

• 10:04Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there will, oh, here's that video right here, this kid.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. I was wrong about the dentist. It was, or maybe there's a few of these.

• 10:12Theo Von?

  He's like, somebody charge this magazine, he's yelling. How would you recommend to a parent right now to prepare their children for like an AI future? Kind of like, are there certain curtails that you would start to put in now? Or there's certain like, you know, adjustments where you like get them in a certain training or have them start to watch certain models of things online? Like, what is that, you know?

• 10:31Speaker 01

  I actually think the kids will be fine. I'm worried about the parents. If you look at the history of the world here, when there's a new technology, like, people that grow up with it, they're always fluent. They always figure out what to do. They always learn the new kind of jobs. But if you're like a 50-year-old. And you have to like, kind of learn to do things in a very different way. That doesn't always work.

• 10:51Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  So I think the kids are gonna be fine. I mean, I do have worry, like, I do have worries about kids and technology. Like, I think this scrolling, the kind of like, you know, short video feed dopamine hit, it feels like it's probably messing with kids' brain development in a super deep way. So it's not that I have no worries. I have like extremely deep worries about what technology is doing to kids. But in terms of kids' ability to like be prepared for the future and use a new technology, they seem really good at that.

• 11:17Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Always through history.

• 11:18Theo Von?

  That's a good point, actually. Yeah, it's like if you just grow up with it, it's just like having, it's just totally normal. It's like having kneecaps or whatever, you're just kind of used to it.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  You can't imagine the world where it doesn't exist. You just.

• 11:29Theo Von?

  Right.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:30Theo Von?

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  I remember when I was in school in like junior high and Google first came out. And all the teachers like freaked out. And they're like, this is the end of education. You know, if you, why do you have to memorize history, facts in history class? If you can just look them up instantly on the internet, you don't even have to learn to go to the library. And the answer is like, yeah, maybe memorization is less important. But with these new tools, you can think better, come up with new ideas, do new stuff. I'm sure the same thing happened with the calculator before.

• 11:59Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  And, you know, now this is like, this is just a new tool that exists in the tool chain.

• 12:03Theo Von?

  And what about like, say if there is somebody that's like learning history right now? Like they just started their second year of college. Oh, that Celsius, yeah, that thing will definitely, you won't be able to blink for a month, homie. That thing will, yeah, you'll sneeze and release 5.0, dude. You'll frigging, are you guys at 4.5 already?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  We're 4.5 already. 5.0 is a, I think it's gonna be great.

• 12:21Theo Von?

  Oh, it'll come out fast. We had that Celsius, I'm just saying.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Maybe the researchers need it, not me, but, you know, we'll get them some.

• 12:27Theo Von?

  Yeah, that thing will get you there, man. So say there's somebody, just for example, like that's learning history right now. They're in their second year of college, they're good, they're taking history. Is that, are there some subjects in like, like they're gonna be a historian? Is that still a viable space of work as AI moves forward, do you think, honestly?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  I assume there will be some version of it that is, I, I think it's very hard to predict exactly how something evolves. I, or predict exactly what the jobs of the future are going to be like the.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  You know, not that long ago, it would have been very hard to predict either of our jobs. If you go back 100 years, the idea of like this CEO of an AI company or a podcaster like, you know, probably would have been things that didn't seem to be the most obvious evolutions of the things people were doing at the time.

• 13:24Theo Von?

  Yeah, you just seemed almost probably crazy even in trying to explain those to someone.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  You would. And now, in fact, two of the job, I heard that the job that young people most want is some version of your job. The job that young people most want is to be a, you know, podcast influencer, YouTube, they want a YouTube channel, like whatever it is, they like six, seven year olds, they don't know how to describe it, but that's what they want. And a lot of people also want my job. They want to do like a startup or they want to work on AI. And these just didn't exist.

• 13:51Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  So like the rate with which the new things come along is, is fast. And also trying to predict what they are. I don't know. The thing I say all the time is no one knows what happens next. It's like, we're gonna figure this out. It's this weird emergent thing. Does the current job of a historian exist in the same way? I'll bet not quite. But another thing I believe is that humans are obsessed with other people. Like, we are so deeply wired to care about other people, to care about stories. And history, our own history, is extremely interesting to us. So I would say somehow or other, we're still going to care about that. There's going to be some kind of job doing that.

• 14:27Theo Von?

  Man, that's cool. Yeah, I guess I, if, when I take that avenue of thought, like, okay, there will still be this historian or somebody, it'll be some evolution of that, right? That does seem kind of cool to me because there's a level of creativity in there. There's a level of like faith and spontaneity in there that I think is kind of exciting. So yeah, I guess I hadn't really thought about that. As soon as I get stuck in this doomsday thing, like I just see like, you know, like the history book closes and they're like, we have enough, we have all the history over here, you know?

• 14:57Speaker 01

  You know, people used to say like, oh, there's no need for more music. We've made perfect music. Like, why does anyone need anyone to create anymore?

• 15:03Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  And that's obviously ridiculous.

• 15:05Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Or they would say, there's that famous patent office quote, everything that humans ever possibly need has been invented. There's nothing left to do.

• 15:11Theo Von?

  I have heard that. But here we are.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Here we are. And, and like, someone asked me the other day, like, you know, how long is it until you can make like a AI, AI CEO for OpenAI? And I was like, probably not that long. And they were like, well, aren't you really sad about that? And I was like, no, I think it's awesome. I'm for sure going to figure out something else to do. I'm excited to do that. Like, I think that's great.

• 15:32Theo Von?

  Right. So you could create something that would have your job, but then you could do something else.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 15:40Theo Von?

  But then how do you know that you'll still get paid for your job, I guess, like?

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Well.

• 15:44Theo Von?

  It's kind of a big question.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  I kind of think that.

• 15:47Theo Von?

  But yeah, I guess the framing that question might be better. Like, say there are jobs that get curtailed by.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  There will be some.

• 15:52Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  I think it's important to be honest about that. There will be some jobs that totally go away. But mostly, I think we will rely on the fact that people's desire for more stuff, for better experiences, for, you know, a higher social status or whatever, that seems basically limitless. Human creativity seems basically limitless. And human desire to like be useful to each other and to connect with each other and do stuff for each other and focus on other people seems pretty limitless, too. So I think throughout all of history, there have been these predictions like, ah, you know, we're gonna

• 16:27Speaker 01

  we're gonna like all be on the beach and work an hour a day or hour a week or whatever, and we're gonna have unlimited wealth and.

• 16:34Theo Von?

  I've never heard that one. I would, I love that.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  I mean, they used to say this. They used to say, like, the Industrial Revolution, people were like, oh, you know, we've just figured out how to automate like man's lot in life. There's nothing left to do. We're gonna have these machines do all the work.

• 16:46Theo Von?

  Makes sense, probably.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  And you watch these machines doing all this stuff that only people used to physically do and everybody panicked and said, there's gonna be no more jobs. And we figured out new stuff to want. Now, here's an interesting thing. If you could go back to that Industrial Revolution time and people before that were, you know, really on the grind, working super hard, trying to like, kind of have enough food to survive. Go back to those people. Look at our jobs today. Would those people say we have real jobs? Or would they say you have unbelievable abundance, unbelievable wealth, so much food to eat, incredible luxury? And you guys are just like playing a game to entertain yourselves. Is that a real job or not? And they would probably say where they sit, what you guys do is not a real job. You guys are, you know,

• 17:30Speaker 01

  you're too rich, you're wasting your time, you're trying to like.

• 17:33Theo Von?

  Yeah, you guys are a couple of dang zest lords out there fricking playing Uno in the park or whatever. They would not, I don't think my grandfather would be like, you have a job. He would still be like, you need to get a job.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 17:43Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  And when we look forward another hundred years at what people are doing, they'll probably think they're working very hard. It'll feel very satisfying, very intense to them. They're really like, they'll feel engaged. They'll be making their people happy. They'll be creating value for each other. But if we could look forward that hundred years at those guys. Do you think we would say they're working or like, man, you have like AI doing everything for you? You're just trying to entertain yourselves.

• 18:02Theo Von?

  Yeah, like, oh, you guys have it so easy. Right?

• 18:05Speaker 01

  But I think that's beautiful. I think it's great that those people in the past think we have it so easy. I think it's great that we think those people in the future have it so easy. Like, that is the beautiful story of us all contributing to human progress and everybody's lives getting better and better.

• 18:19Theo Von?

  Say we're able to get to that space, right? Like the move, like the movement that happens with AI and with just technology, which will advance quicker, I think, which is one thing that AI feels like to me, it's a fast forward button on technology and on possibility. Because things can be, information can be quantified so quick and a lot of like more menial tasks, even though they're not really menial in people's lives, but menial hypothetically can be done quicker to get a lot of the framework for things done fast. But how will people survive? Like, how do we adjust our structure of finance of like, if some people own the companies that have the AI and then a lot of people are just using the AIs and the agents created by AIs to do things for them?

• 19:05Theo Von?

  How will society, like societal members, still be able to financially survive? Will there still be money? What is that? Does that make any sense?

• 19:12Speaker 01

  It totally makes sense.

• 19:14Theo Von?

  Okay, sorry.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  I don't know. Neither does anybody else, but I'll tell you my current best guess.

• 19:17Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Well, I'll say two guesses. One, I think it is possible that we put, you know, GPT seven or whatever in everybody's chat GPT. Everybody gets it for free and everybody has access to just this like crazy thing, such that everybody can be more productive, make way more money. Doesn't actually matter that you don't like own the cluster itself, but everybody gets to use it. And it turns out even getting to use it is enough that people are like getting richer faster and more distributed than ever before. That could happen. I think that really is possible. There's another version of this where.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  The most important things that are happening are these systems are discovering, you know, new cures for diseases, new kinds of energy, new ways to make spaceships, whatever. And most of that value is accruing to the like cluster owners, us, just so that I'm not dodging the question here. And then I think society will very quickly say, okay, we got to have some new, some new economic model where we share that and distribute that to people.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  I used to be really excited about things like UBI. I still am kind of excited, like universal basic income, where you just give everybody money.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, you hear that term a lot. Yeah, universal basic income. Yeah, I heard you and Rogan talk about that too a while back.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  I still am kind of excited about that, but I think people really need agency, like they really need to feel like they have a voice in governing the future and deciding where things go. And I think if you just like say, okay, AI is going to do everything and then everybody gets like a, you know, dividend from that, it's not going to feel good. And, and I don't think it actually would be good for people. So I think we need to find a way where we're not just like, if we're in this world where we're not just distributing money or wealth, like actually, I don't just want like a check every month. What I would want is like a ownership share, you know, whatever the AI creates so that I feel like I'm participating in this thing that's going to compound and get more valuable over time. So I sort of

• 21:12Speaker 01

  like universal basic wealth better than universal basic income. And I think, I don't like basic either. I want like universal extreme wealth for everybody. But, but even then, like, I think what people really want is the agency to kind of co-create the future together. And, and in a world where it's like the AI is mostly coming up with the new scientific inventions, at least we've got to still have humans like invent the new culture and have that be a very distributed thing.

• 21:43Theo Von?

  Okay, I guess, yeah, I see what you're saying, but would that be like an American thing, do you think, like, since they were invented here, or do you think, I'm just wondering, what does that look like, you know?

• 21:53Speaker 01

  The economic model of it all, or the whole thing?

• 21:56Theo Von?

  Yeah, or like, is there a dividend of the company that's in is divided up between the masses, sort of?

• 22:03Speaker 01

  I mean, a crazy idea, but in the spirit of crazy ideas, is that if the world, there's like eight, roughly eight billion people in the world, if the world can generate, like, eight quintillion tokens per year, if that's the world, actually, let's say the world can generate 20 trillion quintillion, 20 quintillion tokens per year.

• 22:22Theo Von?

  Tokens of?

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Like, each word generated by an AI.

• 22:25Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Just making up a huge number here.

• 22:26Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  We'll say, okay, 12 of those go to, you know, the normal capitalistic system, but eight of those, eight quintillion tokens, are gonna get divided up equally among eight billion people. So, everybody gets one trillion tokens. And that's your kind of universal, basic wealth globally. And people can sell those tokens, like, if I don't need mine, I can sell them to you. We could pool ours together for some, like, new art project we wanna do. But, but instead of just, like, getting a check, you're getting, everybody on Earth is getting, like, a slice of the world's AI capacity, and then we're letting the, like, massively distributed human ingenuity and creativity and economic engine do its thing. I mean, that's like a crazy idea, maybe it's a bad one, but that's the kind of thing that I think sounds like someone should think about it more.

• 23:11Theo Von?

  One of the big fears is, like, purpose, right? Like, human purpose, like, work gives us purpose. And also, I think the idea that we are the ones advancing humanity gives us purpose? Like, we are the, like, yeah, like, we have some control over our own destiny, maybe? Gives us this sense of purpose? And it feels like that we would lose a sense of purpose, or that purpose would be adjusted. Like if AI is to really, you know, continue to advance so quickly. It feels like our sense of purpose would start to really disappear. Have you had thoughts about that?

• 23:50Speaker 01

  I worry about this a lot. It's so, I think people have worried about this with every big technological revolution. But I agree that this time it feels different, like.

• 23:58Theo Von?

  Okay, yeah, because if, say you had an axe and somebody came out with a saw, you're like, you're like, yeah, that's.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Or even if they come out with like a robot that cuts the tree down, it still feels fine. But like creativity, intelligence, I think cuts so deeply at the core of whatever we are and how we value ourselves.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  One example, we can look at this right now. I think one area where AI is having a big impact is on how people write software for a living. And AI is really good at that. It's really changed what it means to be a software developer.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  I haven't heard any of those software developers say that they, even though their job is different, that they don't have meaning. They still enjoy it. They're operating at a higher level.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  And I'm hopeful, at least for a long time, you know, a hundred years from now, who knows? But I'm hopeful that that's what it'll feel like with AI is even if we're asking it to solve huge problems for us. Even if we ask it to say like, you know, go discover a cure for cancer.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  There will still be a lot of things to do in that process. That feel valuable to a person. You'll still asking it the questions. You're still like helping guide it. You're still framing it or whatever it is. You're still like talking to the world about it. And.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  And I think all of human history suggests that we find a way to put ourselves at the center of the story and feel really good about it. Like, you know, if you kind of think like.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  We used to think that the earth was the center of the solar system. And then we're like, very human centric view. And then we're like, okay, fine, the sun is the center of the solar system. But the solar system is at least the center of the galaxy. And now, oh man, there's a lot of galaxies and oh man, now we're this like tiny speck in this like very huge universe. And

• 25:47Speaker 01

  and yet we still manage to feel all like a lot of main character energy. And so I somehow think even in a world where AI is doing all of this stuff that humans use to do, we are going to find a way in our own telling of the story to feel like the main characters. And I think in an important sense, we will be. And that's really good. I also like, you know, probably already today, there could be a very compelling version of two AIs talking like this.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  And I don't think I would want to watch that. Like, I think I really do feel deeply wired to like care about the real person behind it. I think that's like deep in the biology.

• 26:25Theo Von?

  Right. Yeah, that's the part that I think a lot of times it's like, even though you can get into like these wormholes of like possibility and these fear holes of possibility, or um, kind of this dystopian ideas, that in the end, I'm like, I'd rather probably watch something that's real, you know? It's like, because I'm real, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want to talk really to a robot. I'd, you know? Yeah, I think in the end, there's going to be a part of you that wants to continue to just talk to um, talk to humans. Do you uh, what's like one of your fears? Like, what's a fear you have of AI? Like, if you have like a fearful space that it could go like? I know you mentioned a little bit.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  This morning, I was testing our new model and I got a question. I got emailed a question that I didn't quite understand.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  And I put it in the model, this GPT-5, and it answered it perfectly.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  And I really kind of sat back in my chair. And I was just like, oh, oh, man, here it is moment. And I got over it quickly. I got busy on to the next thing. But it was like, uh, I mean, it's what kind of we're talking about? I felt like useless relative to the AI in this thing that I felt like I should have been able to do and I couldn't. And it was really hard, but the AI just did it like that.

• 27:42Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  It was, it was a weird feeling.

• 27:46Theo Von?

  Yeah, I think that's, I think that feeling right there, that's the feeling a lot of people kind of have, like, what's gonna, you know, when does it happen? What's gonna happen? But I think some of it is, it's like, yeah, you, it's hard to conceptualize until you're further along.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  I, I'm all, totally, I don't think we know quite how that's gonna feel, you just have to like, approach it step by step. Another thing I'm afraid of, and we had a, you know, a real problem with this earlier, but it can get much worse, is just what this is gonna mean for users' mental health. There's a lot of people that talk to ChatGPT all day long, there are these sort of new AI companions that people talk to, like they would a girlfriend or a boyfriend. And we were talking earlier about how it's probably not been good for kids to like, grow up, like, on the dopamine hit of scrolling TikTok or whatever.

• 28:40Theo Von?

  Yeah, do you think that, that, how do you keep like, AI from having that same effect? Like, that negative effect that social media really has had?

• 28:48Speaker 01

  I, I'm scared of that. I don't, I don't have an answer yet. I don't think we know quite the ways in which it's going to have those negative impacts. But I feel for sure it's gonna have some, and we'll have to, I hope we can learn to mitigate it quickly.

• 29:02Theo Von?

  Can AIs, can they pull up pornography and stuff like that too, or no?

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 29:07Theo Von?

  Oh my god. God, I didn't know that. No, it's fine, I, yeah, but I just, yeah, I don't even need to know that, I'm gonna have that stricken from my own record. Crypto is, it's kind of blowing up again, you know? It's, some people say it's back, it's not back, it's, one of the best things is, is it hasn't left. It is, it has maintained itself as a viable form of currency, and I'm back in, I'm back invested, and when I need more Bitcoin, or Solana, or XRP, Moonpay is always the first app I open. Since Moonpay works with Apple Pay, Venmo, PayPal, bank accounts, and credit cards,

• 29:51Theo Von?

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• 30:32Theo Von?

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• 31:51Theo Von?

  enter T H E O to get 15% off your first order. That's T R Y A R M R A dot com slash Theo. What legal system does AI have to work by? Is there like a legal? Like, are there? Like, we have laws like in the world, right? Like, in the human world? Is, does AI have to work by any, like, legal laws? You know?

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think we will certainly need a legal or a policy framework for AI. One example that we've been thinking about a lot, this is like a, maybe not quite what you're asking, this is like a very human-centric version of that question. People talk about the most personal shit in their lives to ChatGPT. It's, you know, people use it, young people especially, like, use it as a therapist, a life coach, having these relationship problems, what should I do? And right now, if you talk to a therapist or a lawyer or a doctor about those problems, there's like legal privilege for it. You know, like, it's, there's doctor-patient confidentiality, there's legal confidentiality, whatever. And we don't, we haven't figured that out yet for when you talk to ChatGPT.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  So if you go talk to ChatGPT about your most sensitive stuff, and then there's like a lawsuit or whatever, like, we could be required to produce that. And I think that's very screwed up. I think we should have, like, the same concept of privacy for your conversations with AI that we do with a therapist or whatever. And no one had to think about that even a year ago. And now I think it's this huge issue of, like, how are we going to treat the laws around this?

• 33:23Theo Von?

  Well, do you think there should be, like, kind of like a, like a slowing things down before we move there, kind of? Because, yeah, that is kind of wild. It's one of the reasons I get scared sometimes to use certain AI stuff because I don't know how much personal information I want to put in because I don't know who's going to have it.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  I think we need this point addressed with some urgency. And, you know, the policymakers I've talked to about it, like, broadly agree, it's just, it's new and now we got to do it quickly. Do you talk to ChatGPT?

• 33:49Theo Von?

  I don't talk to it that much. One of the main, one of my-

• 33:51Speaker 01

  It's because of this?

• 33:52Theo Von?

  I think it is, it's because it's like-

• 33:53Speaker 01

  I, I think it makes sense.

• 33:54Theo Von?

  To not talk to ChatGPT because-

• 33:57Speaker 01

  No, no, no, to like really want the privacy clarity before you use it a lot.

• 34:01Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Like, the legal clarity.

• 34:02Theo Von?

  Yeah, it's scary. And it's like, well, how long does it take lawmakers to come up with that? And then it feels like it's moving so fast that it's like, it doesn't even ma, that sometimes it's like, it doesn't even really matter. It's like, are we even waiting for the laws to be put around this? Or, or what's going on? Does it feel like it's moving too fast for you sometimes?

• 34:21Speaker 01

  The last few months have felt very fast. It feels faster and faster, but the last few months have felt very fast.

• 34:26Theo Von?

  Yeah, I was watching this guy, um, Joshua Benjio?

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Joshua Benjio.

• 34:31Theo Von?

  Joshua Benjio. And he's kind of like, some people call him the father of AI. He may be self-proclaimed, I'm not really sure. But he's certainly seen to be kind of like a lifeguard for AI, like thinking about like, well, you know, how do we keep the pool safe? You know, how much water should be in it? You know, the chlorine, what, you know, how many lifeguards do you need on duty? That type of thing hypothetically. And he said, and he was saying that some AIs, they have like deception techniques inside of them. Like that there were AIs that would rather give you an answer that was possibly pleasing to the user than to give them the factual answer.

• 35:11Theo Von?

  And then he was also saying that there were AIs that were developing some of their own languages to communicate with each other, which would be languages that we don't even know. What is that? How do you guys curtail that when those types of things come up? What does that even kind of feel like to you guys? Are these just problems that happen in new spaces and you figure it out as you go?

• 35:34Speaker 01

  You know, there are these moments in the history of science where you have a group of scientists, look at their creation and just say, you know, what have, what have we done? What, maybe it's great, maybe it's bad, but what have we done? Like maybe the most iconic example is thinking about the scientists working on the Manhattan Project in 1945, sitting there watching the Trinity Test and just, you know, this thing that had,

• 35:58Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  it was a completely new, not, not human scale kind of power. And everyone knew it was going to reshape the world. And I do think people working on AI have that feeling in a very deep way, you know?

• 36:15Speaker 01

  We just don't know. Like, we think it's gonna be great. There's clearly real risks. It kinda feels like you should be able to say something more than that, but in truth, I think all we know right now is that we have discovered, invented, whatever you wanna call it, something extraordinary that is going to reshape the course of human history.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Dear God, man. But if you don't know, we don't know.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Well, of course. I mean, I think no one, no one can predict the future. Like, human society is very complex. This is an amazing new technology. Maybe a less dramatic example than the atomic bomb is when they discovered the transistor a few years later.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  The transistor radio?

• 36:54Speaker 01

  The little transistor part that, you know, made computers and radios and everything else. But we discovered this completely new thing that enabled the whole computer revolution. And as in this microphone and those computers and our iPhones and like, the world would be so different if people had not discovered that. And then over the decades, figured out how to make them smaller and more efficient. And now we don't even think about it, because the transistors are just in everything. We have all this modern technology from that one scientific discovery. And I do think that's what AI is gonna be like. We had this one crazy scientific discovery that led to these language models we all use now. And that is gonna change the course of society in all kinds of ways. And of course, we don't know what they all are.

• 37:36Speaker 02

  Damn. I was hoping you knew by the end of that sentence. Or I was hoping you would, you know, like, that's what we're, because we don't know. You know, like, that's, I think, the tough thing.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  There's no time in human history at the beginning of a century where the people ever knew what the end of the century was gonna be like.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  So maybe it's, I do think it goes faster and faster each century. It's certainly like, you know, in 1900, you couldn't have predicted what 2000 was gonna be like. I think 2000 could even less predict what 2100 was gonna look like.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  But that's kind of why it's exciting and like that's kind of why people get to figure out and unfold the story as we go.

• 38:12Theo Von?

  It's kind of bizarre because there's a part of me that's like this guy's out of his mind, this guy is a wild wizard, you know, there's a couple of different things, but then there's also this part of me that's like, this guy is this hopeful guy who's like involved in this crazy space and he kind of has this whimsical energy about the future, which is in a crazy way, a nice energy to have about the future generally is that something could happen or that things are possible. So it just, yeah, it's all kind of like, I don't know, it's fascinating, it's definitely fascinating to me. Sam, to kind of pivot a little bit, there's, it feels like there's a race right now in AI, right? Would you say

• 38:56Theo Von?

  that there's a race between companies in AI?

• 38:59Speaker 01

  It certainly feels that way.

• 39:00Theo Von?

  Yeah. And it almost feels like you guys are the new Formula One drivers, or you guys are like the new like, it's like Mario Andretti, or you guys are the new like Bubba Watts and all that, you know, it's almost like these are the new race cars that everybody's kind of watching position themselves. What is the race for? Because you hear about AI and then you hear about AGI, and then you hear about superintelligence. What is, what is this race that's going on? How real is it? And what is the race for?

• 39:34Speaker 01

  When I was a kid, the race was like the megahertz race and then it became the gigahertz race. Everybody wanted a computer with a faster processor.

• 39:41Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  You know, Intel would come out with this one and then AMD would come out with this one. And every, like, it turned out that those gigahertz measurements eventually were not even that helpful. Like you could have one that had a lower number and it was, in practice, it was faster. And eventually, I think it was Apple that realized they should just stop talking about the clock speed of their computers. And you probably don't even know what the processor speed of your iPhone is today.

• 40:06Theo Von?

  Yeah, it's true. Yeah, that was a big thing and it kind of disappeared.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  And I think the same thing has been happening in AI where everybody was racing on these benchmarks. You know, I score this on this benchmark and this on that one. And now people are realizing that like, okay, the benchmarks are kind of saturated. We went through the equivalent of our megahertz race with our benchmark race. And now people kind of don't care about that as much. And now it's like, who's using the model? Who's getting the value out of it? Things like that. But, but I do think people still feel like we're heading towards some milestone. What the milestone is, they disagree on, but maybe it's, maybe it's a system that's capable of doing its own AI research and its own sort of self improvement.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Maybe it's a system that is like smarter than all of humans put together. But they feel like there is some finish line to cross. I actually don't quite feel like this, but I think a lot of people in the industry that there's some finish line that we're going to cross. Maybe it's this like self improvement moment. Maybe you call that super intelligence. And I think there is a sort of, there's like a race to get somewhere, but people don't agree on where it's to or something.

• 41:18Theo Von?

  What are you racing towards? You feel like?

• 41:21Speaker 01

  It's a great question. I don't have like a finish line in mind. There's nothing I could say that I don't think I can articulate anything where I would say like, this is mission complete. But if I, if I had to give like a self referential answer there, you know, the moment where we would rather give our research cluster, like our, you know, GPUs that we run all of our AI experiments on, the moment where we would rather give that to an AI researcher rather than our brilliant team of human researchers, that does at least seem like some kind of very different new era.

• 41:58Theo Von?

  Yeah. And at that point, who's even we? I feel like it's just you kind of like wheeling the stuff across the hall and, you know, like who's going to, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know what I'm saying? It starts to get this idea, like if we keep, if, if things were to keep leaving the, the people and go to the computer, you're just shoveling coal into the AI hypothetically, you know?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Again, I assume that what will happen, like with every other kind of technology is we'll realize like, we, there's this one thing that the tool's way better than us at, now we gotta go solve some other problems. So let's put our brain power there. I, I somewhat don't think it'll ever feel like we all just get to like push a button and go on vacation.

• 42:34Theo Von?

  Got it.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Like, we will, I think as, one version of this is as, as capabilities go up, because as we get better tools, the expectation goes way up too. And so we've got to like, yes, we get much better tools, but we have to do way more to remain competitive.

• 42:52Theo Von?

  Well, I think there's this hopeful idea, say if you come up with all these-

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Or maybe not, like, maybe, maybe the AI is just better than us at absolutely everything. We just sit there being like, alright, that was cool.

• 43:01Theo Von?

  Yeah, because at a certain point, if something has all the information, right? If something has all the information, it can think and, and ponder and pontificate and serve multi options of answers. Don't we then working for that thing? Like, that's what I start to wonder, like, if it's the smartest thing in the room.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  GPT-5 is the smartest thing, GPT-5 is smarter than us in almost every way, you know? And yet, here we are. So there's like, there's something about the way the world works, there's something about, this doesn't mean it's true forever, but there's something about what humans can do today that is so different. There's also something about what humans care about today that is so different than AI, that I don't think that simplistic thing quite works. Now, again, by the time it's a million times smarter than us, who knows?

• 43:48Theo Von?

  Is part of you want to kind of get there? Like, how do we get, where like, I open the door and you, and I say, excuse me, sir? And it's just my computer in there, you know what I'm saying? Like-

• 43:57Speaker 01

  You know, when, when I was a kid, I, I sort of thought about these technological revolutions that happened one at a time. There was the agriculture revolution a long time ago, and that freed us up to do these other things. And then there was the like, there was the age of enlightenment, and there was the industrial revolution, and there was the computer revolution, and all these things happened. And I thought of them as like, these distinct things. And now, I view it as just this one long compounding exponential, where all of these things come together. Each piece of technology is built continuously, overlapping on the one that comes before, and we're able to just do more and more. And so, in some sense, AI is this big, special, unique, different thing.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  And in some other sense, it is just part of this long arc of human progress. We talked about the transistor earlier, but like, that was way more important in some sense to AI happening than the work we do now. And all this stuff has to like, compound, compound, you got to build the internet, you got to get all this data, you got to do all these things. And-

• 45:01Speaker 01

  And I want that exponential to keep going. There'll be things way after AI. We'll invent all sorts of new things. We'll go colonize space. We'll go, you know, build neural interfaces. Who knows what else we'll do?

• 45:12Speaker 01

  But I think at some point, AI fades into that arc of history. We don't even think about it. It's like transistors, which we don't even think about today. It's just another layer in the scaffolding that humans collectively have built up bit by bit over time. And where you sit in our day, you get to open that door. You have this like computer that only has one interface. You just, it says, what do you want? You say whatever you want, it happens. And you figure out amazing new things to build for the next generation and the next and the next. And we just keep going.

• 45:42Theo Von?

  Yeah, I think the part that I think gets spooky is I can't build any. I can build some stuff, but I can't build like any technological stuff. So then I'm like, dang dude, well, I'm not gonna, what am I gonna build over there?

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Okay, so right now, I can write software, maybe you can't. And I have a little advantage if I want to go build some technological thing. Very soon, you can make any piece of software you want. Cause you just ask an AI in English, you say, I got an idea for an app. Make me this thing. And the whole thing just happens. So that's a win for you. Maybe it's a little bit of a loss for me. I think it's kind of cool for the whole world.

• 46:15Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  But like, this is, this is gonna be a technology that anybody can use. You can just like, with natural language, you can say, this is what I want. It goes off and writes the code for you, debugs it for you, deploys it for you.

• 46:28Theo Von?

  And then you can say, how do I use what I just created?

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if you have a great idea, AI will just make it happen for you. And this is a new thing. Like this is, this, I think this will make technology the most accessible it ever has been.

• 46:39Theo Von?

  Got it. Okay, then that seems a little bit different. I think there's this idea in my head that I'm gonna have to figure out all this coding. I'm gonna figure out all of this different ways to do things to even have a possibility of, of use of myself in the future.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  No, I think this is.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Without talking too much about the future and what we're gonna launch, like the fact that you will be able to have an entire piece of software created just by like explaining your idea is gonna be incredible for humans getting great new stuff. Cause right now, I think there's like a lot more good ideas than people who know how to make them. And if AI can do that for us, we're really good at coming up with creative ideas.

• 47:16Theo Von?

  Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things that people like to do. Do you think right now, if humans, regular, average humans, most humans could vote to keep AI going or to stop AI, what do you think that they?

• 47:30Speaker 01

  That's a great question.

• 47:31Theo Von?

  What do you think that they would vote?

• 47:33Speaker 01

  This is like totally kind of, I don't have any data for this. I would bet most people who use ChatGPT, which a lot of people know, they would say like, keep it going. And most people who don't would say, it's scary, stop it. What do you think?

• 47:46Theo Von?

  Yeah, I feel like most people would say, stop it, I think, or pause it, take the wheels off of it for a month, that kind of thing, siphon the gas out of the tank, you know, like that kind of thing, put sugar in it. I think there would be like that kind of thing, you know?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  What are you most afraid of with it? Or is it just that we're not gonna have purpose and we don't know how it's all gonna go?

• 48:05Theo Von?

  Yeah, I mean, those are some of the huge parts, but I think like, there's like, um, probably that, I think that in the end, I think there's a general feeling of like, well, if all the trucking jobs disappear, you know, if those become automated and, um, and like, yeah, if everything becomes a robotax, like, you know, will that feel, you know, where will those people go for jobs? Will everybody just be dancing on TikTok, trying to get people to tip them for trends and stuff, you know, like there's part of that. I had this dream years ago that it all ends with everybody's driving an Uber and literally holding each other at gunpoint to be each other's passengers, right? Like, get in my, cause that's how bad, like, somebody's like, I need the fare more than

• 48:50Theo Von?

  you do, you know, my whole family's in the backseat, sit shotgun, we'll get you to where, you know, like, people are literally holding each other at gunpoint to subscribe to their OnlyFans and stuff, like, it's just that dystopian or whatever. So I guess part of that, but then there's a deeper part where it's like, yeah. What comes out of us if it feels like a lot of the regular stuff that gives us purpose? That we know right now gives us purpose? Is there a new evolution of our purpose? Is there like a blooming inside of us? Is it this utopian place that you almost think of as like a heaven idea where,

• 49:29Theo Von?

  you know, peoples are fed and have enough, you know, can, are provided for, can take care of themselves? I guess that's it, or what? Because purpose gives people work, work gives people so much of their purpose. And so for to lose those things, what is it, what happens, you know? And I know I kind of keep asking that over and over again. You don't really have the answers. And that's, it's okay. Of course, how could you? We're not in the future.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  I mean, I think people really do love to be useful to each other. And people love to express their creativity as part of that.

• 50:02Theo Von?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  And

• 50:06Speaker 01

  as the long-term trend of society getting richer has continued, more people, I think, are able to do, get closer to sort of expressing themselves in the best way that they can. Maybe like,

• 50:21Speaker 01

  you know, as recently as five or 600 years ago, not very many people got to be artists. The world wasn't that rich. There were a limited number of patrons that could like pay you to create art. But there were more than zero. And before that, there were almost none. And then you got this beautiful Italian Renaissance and all of this amazing art, uh, because there was like excess capital in the world. And now a lot more people can be artists or a lot more people can start startups, which is another, like, for me, that's like my expression of creativity.

• 50:48Theo Von?

  Right.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Or more people can create content.

• 50:52Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Uh, and

• 50:55Speaker 01

  and this idea that people can find whatever way they can to express themselves, their talent, their vision, um, for kind of collective love of other people. And a care for putting their brick in society's progress. I think that can go really far. Now, what art in the future looks like now that AI can make art? Or help make art? I don't know. It'll probably be kind of different. What startups will look like in the future when people can kind of just say whatever they want to their AI? And it can make this off of them right then. It will kind of be different. But, but I think it's such a bad bet to assume that either human creativity

• 51:37Speaker 01

  or human fulfillment from being useful to other people ends. I think we're just, we stay on this exponential and like each year, each decade, our collective standard of living goes way up. The whole world gets way richer. We all get more. We all expect more. And even over like the course, I was thinking recently, like food is so much better than it is when I was a kid. Like the world has just figured out how to make food better. Like we, you know, know how to, we figured out organic vegetables or whatever it is. I don't know. It just tastes much better. And like, I think that's great. I don't want to go back to eating like the frozen carrots or whatever.

• 52:13Theo Von?

  Yeah, I guess that's a good point. But then there's some, like I saw this thing the other day. It was like a kitchen, they had like one of those robo kitchens or whatever. You know, when you order food from like something dash or whatever? And then you, uh, but it's like Hank's ribs. And then it's like Marty's pizza. And then it's like Susan's salami shop, but they're all the same place, you know?

• 52:36Speaker 01

  And when you get that from window dash, you don't, you don't like, you feel like something's missing, right? You're like, ah, this is fake. I can tell. I get less enjoyment. You would rather get that food from like the dude who's been making it and perfecting it on the, you know, that little pizza shop on the corner for the last 20 years.

• 52:56Theo Von?

  Right.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Cause that's like part of like, that dude is part of the experience. That authenticity is part of the experience.

• 53:00Theo Von?

  Right.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  I don't think that goes away with the like fake robotic thing.

• 53:04Theo Von?

  Okay. Yeah, because I think I start to feel like we're in this universe where it's like you're walking down the street or something and like a Waymo goes by and it's like eat now and you're like but and you already did eat it's just got a bad reading or something it's got a bad valve in it or something you're like yelling at it there's nobody in there and you're like I already ate it's like sit down and eat now and it just like fucking uses like a T-shirt cannon to just like shoot a burrito at you and then you're sitting there you're eating that you know and then the GLP car goes by right

• 53:33Speaker 01

  And says I can help you out.

• 53:34Theo Von?

  Yes, and it's like obviously you've over and you're like I didn't even want to eat that thing's messed up right you're yelling at a car that has no driver in it and then it shoots you with three GLP one darts in the neck and now your wife doesn't even recognize you when you get home or whatever you know.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  The fact that you find this so

• 53:53Speaker 01

  off putting I think is a sign for optimism.

• 53:55Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Like

• 53:56Theo Von?

  That's actually a good point.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  You're wired you're gonna be resistant to that that's not gonna make you happy that's not gonna make other people happy now maybe we get tricked like social media tricked us for a while we got too addicted to feeds whatever but we realized like actually this is not helping me be my best you know like doing the equivalent of getting the like

• 54:15Speaker 01

  burrito cannon into my mouth on my phone at night like that's not making me long term happy.

• 54:20Theo Von?

  Right.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  And that's not helping me like really accomplish my true goals in life and I think if AI does that people will reject it however if chat GPT really helps you to figure out what your true goals in life are and then accomplish those you know it says hey you've said you want to be a better father or a better you know you want to be in better shape or you you know want to like grow your business

• 54:42Speaker 01

  if you want we can change that goal and I can help you scroll TikTok all night or you know eat the burritos or whatever and I'll give you the GLP one shots and I'll make you as healthy as you can but like maybe instead I can try to help convince you you should go for a run tonight.

• 54:55Theo Von?

  Hmm.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  And I think if AI feels like It is helping you try to accomplish your goals and be your best. That will feel very different than the last generation of technology.

• 55:05Theo Von?

  Yeah. And you know what? And that's where I'm like, and that's where a kid growing up right now, to them, that would probably, some young people, it might be like, that makes the most sense. I'm a little older generation, I might be like, oh, that seems a little. But that's always how things are with generation and generation.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Always how it goes.

• 55:20Theo Von?

  You're right. And maybe this is just like a quicker evolution of things. And for young people, it's going to make so much sense. And for older people, it's an energy just like, ah, get off my, you know, avatar lawn or something, you know?

• 55:32Speaker 01

  But that's the way of societal progress. That's just how it goes.

• 55:34Theo Von?

  Good point. You ever realize that you spent your entire morning thinking about lunch? It's 9:00 AM and somehow I'm already in negotiations with myself about how I'm gonna spend $20 on a sandwich at noon. And then I eat it, or you eat it, or somebody eats it. And then an hour later, you're just standing in the kitchen worrying about what you'll do for dinner. And that's one reason why I've been into Huell. The Black Edition Powder is a complete meal you have instead of food, not a shake on top of food. Their powder starts at less than $3 per meal, has 40 grams of protein, and mixes with water or milk in about 30 seconds. I like Huell's shakes because they're clean and it's quick.

• 56:19Theo Von?

  Sometimes it may, I just, I would just want to make sure I have everything I need to keep going the way I want to keep going in a healthy manner. So with Huell, basically lunch went from a daily logistical problem to a thing I can solve in about 30 seconds. Make healthy eating simple. New customers get an exclusive offer of 15% off online with my code WEEKEND at huell.com/weekend. That's H-U-E-L dot com slash weekend. Thank you to Huell for partnering and supporting our show. You know, it's an interesting time for business. Tariff and trade policies are dynamic. Supply chains are squeezed and cash flow is tighter than ever.

• 57:03Theo Von?

  If your business can't adapt in real time, you're in a world of hurt. You need total visibility from global shipments to tariff impacts to real-time cash flow. That's NetSuite by Oracle, your AI-powered business management suite, trusted by over 42,000 businesses. NetSuite is the number one cloud ERP for many reasons. It brings accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one suite. You have one source of truth, giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. NetSuite helps you know what's stuck, what it's costing you, and how to pivot fast.

• 57:44Theo Von?

  If I needed this product, this is what I would use, NetSuite by Oracle, one of the most trusted companies in the world. It's one system, full control, tame the chaos with NetSuite. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders, at netsuite.com/theo. That's netsuite, N-E-T-S-U-I-T-E, dot com slash Theo. There's definitely been a lot of talk about tech and governance, right? And I know we touched on it a little bit earlier. And there were people lobbying and Trump had a big, beautiful bill for like a 10-year

• 58:29Theo Von?

  ban on state legislation against AI. What do you think about that, like letting it be this rogue space?

• 58:38Speaker 01

  There have to be some rules here. There has to be some guidelines. There has to be some sort of regulation at some point. I think it'd be a mistake to let each state do this kind of crazy patchwork of stuff. I think like one countrywide approach would be much easier for us to be able to innovate and still have some guardrails, but there have to be some guardrails.

• 59:00Theo Von?

  Do you, have you met with governments and like government leaders to have discussions like that? Like, are they meeting with you? Cause they might, they-

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. They do meet with us. They haven't done anything big yet, but they're talking about it.

• 59:12Theo Von?

  Do they meet with you to try to keep information out of you guys' data?

• 59:18Speaker 01

  You know, for all of the paranoia about that, I don't think we've ever had someone come say like, I don't want it to say this negative thing about this politician or this whatever. The concerns are like, what is this gonna do to our kids? You know, are they gonna stop learning? There's a lot of concerns about that. Um, is this gonna spread fake information? Is this gonna influence elections? But we've never had the like, you can't say bad things about the president, Trump or whatever.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Bias is a big concern. Like, they do wanna know, like, you know, if it'll say bad things about one candidate, it'll say bad things about the other.

• 59:50Theo Von?

  Could you guys make it do one or the other? Like, can you guys favor the backend or like-

• 59:54Speaker 01

  We totally could. I mean, we don't, but we totally could.

• 59:57Theo Von?

  You could?

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:58Theo Von?

  Wow.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think like-

• 1:00:00Theo Von?

  How do we know you? How do you, like, do we give you guys lie detector tests everywhere? Like, how do we know you-

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  We feel like test the system. You can, anyone can like test the AI and say, if I say this, it's gonna say this.

• 1:00:09Theo Von?

  Oh, that's a good point.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  But you, you touch on a really big point here, which is like, hundreds of millions of people talk to ChatGPT every day. And it probably has like a big impact on what they believe. And so I think society's interest in making sure that we are, you know, a responsible neutral party should be huge. Now, people do test it a lot, and I think that's good, but like, we gotta be held to a very high standard there.

• 1:00:35Theo Von?

  But how do we like this as regular people? Or how do like regular people just hold you guys to a high standard? Like, is it their, I guess it's politicians' responsibility or, I mean, these guys are idiots. Someone, they're like 80-year-old dudes giving thumbs up. That one guy couldn't get the wifi on. Remember that guy? That guy couldn't get the wifi on. So I'm like, how do we-

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  I mean, there's a huge amount of people that test our systems all the time, looking for any errors, any bias, any, anything.

• 1:00:59Theo Von?

  I guess it's a good point. It's we can test on this end.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  You can tell, yeah.

• 1:01:02Theo Von?

  Right. People can test it on this end.

• 1:01:07Theo Von?

  As, as AI grows, like, how big do data centers need to be?

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:01:12Theo Von?

  Is that a concern of you guys?

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  I went recently to one of our new data centers under construction in Abilene, Texas. It's about like a approximately one gigawatt facility, huge. You know, be the biggest data center ever built by the time it's done. And you stand in the middle of that and the scale of this project just hits you so big. That's like one little, that's like one little part of it.

• 1:01:36Theo Von?

  Dude, that's like eight Costco.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, there's like 5,000 people there doing construction on it. And this thing is just standing up, making progress every day. And you stand in the middle of this.

• 1:01:44Theo Von?

  And what are you in a chariot or whatever? Like, how do you even?

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  You're like in a little ATV.

• 1:01:48Theo Von?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Uh, it's like a dirty kind of construction site.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  But it, the scale of this thing, and then you kind of go in every room and you look at all the cables, the power, the cooling systems, rack after rack after server, of servers. And it's humongous. Just like they're standing up these like power plants right in the middle of it.

• 1:02:07Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 1:02:09Theo Von?

  Well, it looks, it starts to make our planet look like, um, a software board, like a.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  It does. You know, when you see it from the air, I was really struck by that. I was like, this looks like the motherboard of a computer.

• 1:02:22Theo Von?

  Yeah, it looks like the motherboard of a computer. You start to see like how the planets in like a lot of these like sci-fi movies, a lot of them look, have that R2D2 look on the outside of them because they've been.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Covered in data centers.

• 1:02:33Theo Von?

  Yeah. Which is kind of wild. Do you know where we're going and you're not telling us? Are you, do you know?

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't.

• 1:02:39Theo Von?

  You promised, dude.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, I have all my guesses. Like, I do guess that a lot of the world gets covered in data centers over time.

• 1:02:45Theo Von?

  You really?

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  But I don't know, because maybe we put them in space. Like, maybe we build a big Dyson sphere on the solar system and say, hey, it actually makes no sense to put these on Earth.

• 1:02:53Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  I wish I had like more concrete answers for you. But like, we're stumbling through this. We maybe, you know, have a little bit higher confidence than the average person or can, but there's so much we don't know yet.

• 1:03:04Theo Von?

  No, that's the craziest thing about you, Sam. And I, I think this is a compliment somehow, dear God. And it, yeah, it is a compliment. You're like, it's like, you're like, come with me through the universe. And you're like, people are like, well, what's it like? You're like, I don't know exactly, but, and then we're all, it's like we're all going. It's like, um, I don't know, you're just somehow the most, like, uh.

• 1:03:28Theo Von?

  You're this, like this charming kind of Terminator, it feels like. And I hate to say Terminator, that's a crazy term. But like, uh, but you're this like, you're like, I'm like, okay. I'm curious. You somehow seem so optimistic about it. Um, it, it adds to my curiosity.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  When I was a kid, I assumed that there were always some adults in the room. Someone had a plan. Someone knew everything that was gonna happen. Someone had it all figured out. And I sort of think why people like conspiracy theories is it's nice to think that someone's got a plan. It's nice to think someone that, uh, you know, has it all figured out. And then I got a little bit older and I sort of started to suspect there are no adults in the room. No one, people have plans, I have plans, but no one has all the answers. No one knows where it's all gonna go. And now that I am the adult in the room, I can say with certainty, no one knows where it's all gonna go. Like, I'm the guy in the room and I have some guesses and I have some plans. Uh, and we're working really hard.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  But like, you know, we try to always say what we think the possibilities are. What we think is most likely. Often we're right. Sometimes it's in the broader set and sometimes it goes in a totally different direction than anything we thought. And, you know, we keep trying to make progress, figure out more. We try to tell people, not just tell, we try to show people by like deploying these systems and say, you can go use it. Don't just take our word for it. Try it out, see what it can do.

• 1:04:52Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  But like, I can say with conviction, the world needs a lot more processing power. But if that looks like tiling data centers on earth, which I think is what it looks like in the short term, in the long term also. Or we do go build them in space. I don't know, it sounds cool to try to build them in space, but also really hard.

• 1:05:10Theo Von?

  What about like the environmental effects of those and stuff? Like there's been like, you know, there's been articles written and I don't know how much of it is real or not real, right? Cause who knows what to believe? But you'd have to think that, you know, it takes water to cool them, right? It takes power to power them.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:25Theo Von?

  You know, um, there was something like Arizona and Iowa that there's been like repercussions within the environment there in the communities. Uh, would it? And a lot of those companies don't have to report those things because it's considered proprietary, you know? What do you think about those fears? Or how do you guys manage that? Like, do you guys talk about that? Do you meet with environmentalists? Like, what does that all look like?

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  I think we need to get to fusion as fast as possible.

• 1:05:49Theo Von?

  Get to what?

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  Nuclear fusion. I think that is the

• 1:05:52Theo Von?

  Oh, shit. What is it?

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Where you basically knock two small atoms together and it makes a bunch of energy, but no carbon, very clean, doesn't generate, you know, doesn't really harm the environment. And power can become like abundant and pretty limitless on Earth. And we get out of all the current problems we're in.

• 1:06:09Theo Von?

  Are you guys investing in that?

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  We are, and I think AI can help us figure it out even faster. So that's like a, you know, if you have to like burn a little bit more gas in the short term, but you figure out, you know, the future of energy with that AI, it's a huge win.

• 1:06:22Theo Von?

  And would you guys sell tickets to that? Or what do you think that would be like?

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think

• 1:06:26Theo Von?

  Because people are gonna watch that shit. I mean, yeah, people go to monster trucks. You don't think they'll roll up to watch those two things hit each other?

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  The atoms hit each other?

• 1:06:33Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  It's pretty hard to watch two atoms hit each other, but maybe with the, you know, somehow we can do it.

• 1:06:37Theo Von?

  Or what if they do like those sperm races where they put them out of those big things or whatever?

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  I love those sperm races.

• 1:06:41Theo Von?

  They're kind of crazy.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  I

• 1:06:43Theo Von?

  I'm like, dude, there's enough of that going on.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Look, I think the Yeah, there'll be some way to watch fusion. It'll be awesome. And it'll be like loud and bright and theatrical and it'll be making huge amounts of energy. Even if you can't watch the two atoms hit, you'll watch them collectively produce fireworks.

• 1:07:01Theo Von?

  But we're gonna need that? You think if we're gonna get to

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:07:05Theo Von?

  If we're gonna get to AGI or if we're gonna get to superintelligence, do we need that?

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  I bet we can get there without it, but to provide it at the scale that humanity will demand it, I think we do need it. Because people, the desire to use this stuff, people are just gonna want more and more and more. And eventually, like, the two things that I think matter most, the two kind of critical inputs are intelligence and energy. The ability to like have great ideas, come up with plans, and then energy is the ability to like make them happen in the world and also to run the intelligence. And I think the story of the next couple of decades is gonna be the demand for these goes up and up and up to crazy heights and we better find out how to produce a lot. Otherwise, someone's gonna feel like they're getting screwed.

• 1:07:49Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:51Theo Von?

  Dang dude, I can't tell if I'm excited or scared. Maybe I'm both and maybe that's all the same thing.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  You have to be both. You have to be both. I don't know if it's the same thing or not. I think it is kinda like, they do feel related to me always. But I don't think anyone could honestly look at the trajectory humanity is on and not feel both excited and scared.

• 1:08:11Theo Von?

  Yeah. And maybe that's always been the way throughout time. And also then this is where we are. What are we getting, what are you gonna do? You know, like this is where we are. And so that's what's going on.

• 1:08:25Theo Von?

  I saw where you and Joe Rogan spoke about there possibly being one day like an AI president. You know, where like, what if you had this one's kind of, let's just use the term supercomputer or this agent that was created that knew all the information and knew all of the problems and knew the best ways to solve them.

• 1:08:44Theo Von?

  Is that, do you think that something like that is becoming more and more possible one day?

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  I don't know everything that it takes to be a president, but I do know it like takes a lot of things that I don't have to do and that people are gonna.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  Well, maybe I could reframe it to an AI CEO of OpenAI because I do know what that job is like.

• 1:09:03Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  That should be possible someday. Maybe not even that far. Like I think the idea to look at an organization to make really good decisions. There's a lot of things you can imagine that an AI CEO of OpenAI could do that I can't. I can't talk to every person at OpenAI every day. I can't talk to every user of ChatGPT every day. I cannot synthesize all that information even if I could. But an AI CEO could do that. And it would have better information, more context. It could massively parallelize this. And I think that would lead to better decisions in many cases.

• 1:09:32Theo Von?

  Yeah, because wouldn't a supercomputer or something that has all knowledge? Would you think we'll get there?

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  I do.

• 1:09:39Theo Von?

  You do.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  Or I mean, all knowledge is a hard thing to say. I think it will have vast, vast amounts.

• 1:09:45Theo Von?

  Will it be able to tell us about God or anything, do you think?

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  I'm super curious about that.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  I think it will be able to help us answer questions about the nature of the universe that we currently can't. And I feel very confused and very unsatisfied with our current answers. And there is clearly, to me at least, something going on well beyond our current capability to understand. And I would love to know what that is.

• 1:10:12Theo Von?

  You think it could help us learn more?

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:17Theo Von?

  Would it, I wonder if God has a chat GPT or whatever, or just wonder, he got, he has the first one or whatever. But yeah, I'm just so curious, like, how would that work? Um, how does, how does OpenAI make money?

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  We sell chat GPT, pay twenty bucks a month, some people pay two hundred, but very few, relatively few.

• 1:10:37Theo Von?

  Perverts, I think they are.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Uh, mostly, hopefully, they're just working super hard and using it for more productive at their job. And then we also sell an API. So businesses can use and they like pay us every time they make an API call.

• 1:10:49Theo Von?

  Okay. Um, do you think, uh, like, there's a lot of these, like, kind of tech lords that are rocking right now, right? And you get thrown in there, you know?

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Sometimes, I'm like on the periphery, yeah.

• 1:11:01Theo Von?

  Yeah, or you get certainly like, yeah, like these council, these councilmen, kind of like, do you think there's bad artists? Um, amongst like these tech lords and these, and these AI realms, do you think there's bad artists out there?

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  What does bad artists mean?

• 1:11:14Theo Von?

  Just like people that want for evil and not for good?

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  I think most people don't wake up, I think very few people wake up every morning saying, I'm gonna try to make the world a worse place. Or I'm gonna actively try to do evil, clearly some do, but I think most of these people running the big tech efforts are not in that category. I think people get blinded by ambition, I think people get blinded by competition, I think people get caught up, like, very well-meaning people can get caught up in very negative incentives, negative for society as a whole. Um, and by the way, I include, I include us in this, like, we can totally get caught up and we can be very well-meaning, but get caught up in some incentive and it can lead to a bad outcome.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  So that's kind of what I would say, I think people come in with good intentions, they clearly sometimes do bad stuff.

• 1:12:07Theo Von?

  There's a lot of talk about like Palantir and Peter Thiel and their company about being like, you know, they got to deal with from Trump about to have this surveillance or not a surveillance state, but to create a database on most of America. But it starts to feel like a surveillance state, you know? Do you feel like we will need something like that in order for the future? You know, do you feel like something like that is included in the future?

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  So I don't know about that specifically. I mean, I think Palantir and Peter do a lot of great stuff. But again, I can't comment on this specifically. What I'll say generally, I am worried that the more AI in the world we have, the more surveillance the world is going to want because the tool is so powerful. The government will say like, how do we know people aren't using it to make bombs or bioweapons or whatever? And the answer will be more surveillance. And I'm very afraid of that. So I don't, I think we really have to defend rights to privacy. I don't think those are absolute. I'm like totally willing to compromise some privacy for collective safety. But history is that the government takes that way too

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  far. And I'm really nervous about that.

• 1:13:24Theo Von?

  Do you guys feel like the new government kind of, or do you feel like the government is still like a real thing?

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  I don't feel like the government anyway.

• 1:13:31Theo Von?

  You don't?

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  When the US government bombed Iran recently, I remember waking up that morning and seeing that news or whatever time it was. And I was like, oh, that's what actual power looks like, you know, that we're in like a, maybe someday we get there. But it was like a really stark reminder, if however important we think this is, it's like, there are people that have just like this unimaginable power and might and can kind of do whatever they want. And that's definitely not us.

• 1:14:01Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah, I think that's been a lot in the Middle East recently is just like, it's just such a gross displays over there sometimes of inhumanity.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:14:11Theo Von?

  It's sad. What do you think a guy like then like Palantir, Peter Thiel's endgame is? Do you think he has an endgame? Because I think he seems like a dark lord to a lot of us. And it's like, does he think he has an endgame that is like happy?

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  I think Peter is one of the most brilliant people I've ever met.

• 1:14:29Theo Von?

  Oh, he's smarter than me, that's for sure.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  I think he does get caricaturized in the media as this like evil mastermind.

• 1:14:36Theo Von?

  As a villain, he does. I never met him.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  I met him, we're very close friends.

• 1:14:42Theo Von?

  I shouldn't have brought it up then.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  No, it's all good. No, no, no, it's all good. I don't feel that energy from him, but I at all like I.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  In fact, I think he's been one of the most important forces, at least in my life, for questioning assumptions about the path that society was on. And maybe I was like, oh, I thought this was all going well, but maybe we are in a tax stagnation. Maybe we really do have this huge economic challenge that no one's talking about. And, and so I think these people who are just very.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  That think very differently, he would call it very contrarian is.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  Is super important to a society. Now, on the other hand.

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  You know, maybe he.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Maybe he sometimes does things like this that don't do him any favors.

• 1:15:38Theo Von?

  What is it?

• 1:15:39Speaker 03

  You would prefer the human race to endure, right?

• 1:15:43Speaker 03

  You're hesitating.

• 1:15:44Speaker 01

  Well, I.

• 1:15:44Speaker 03

  Yes?

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  I don't know. I, I would.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  I would.

• 1:15:50Speaker 03

  This is a long hesitation. This is a long hesitation.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  There's so many questions.

• 1:15:54Speaker 03

  Should the human race survive?

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:15:59Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  But, but.

• 1:16:00Theo Von?

  God, I mean, that was 22 seconds it took him.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if he were, if he were maybe like.

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  A more typical person, he would have just said an immediate yes.

• 1:16:11Theo Von?

  Right.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  And then said what else he wanted to say. And it took me a while with him to understand that his brain just works differently. And society needs some of that, like he has these super different takes. And then he doesn't have maybe the circuit in his brain that makes him immediately say yes, and then say what he was going to say.

• 1:16:28Theo Von?

  But, you know, his processors, yeah.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  I'm very grateful he exists because he thinks of things no one else does.

• 1:16:33Theo Von?

  Yeah, you know, yeah, you have, you want, they're. Novel thinkers have changed things throughout time, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse, sometimes for the indifferent, but novel thinkers have, you've always like.

• 1:16:48Theo Von?

  I don't know, it's always been part of humanity.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  I'm probably super different and super weird relative to most people, but you know, maybe I have some ideas as part of that that are like valuable to society collectively. And if I had this sort of very standard mindset, I wouldn't.

• 1:17:01Theo Von?

  That's a good point. Yeah. Well, do you think, and I'm just gonna ask you real honestly, do you think a lot of these guys have, I mean, you know, it's now like, you know, love on the spectrum is like a big show, right? People, you know, it's like, and those people are in love shit. Every half the people I know are just, you know, barely, you know, they're crying in parking lots or whatever, but um, you know, there's spousal issues or whatever. But anyway, what I'm saying is, do you think that some of the creators now and some of the tech lords are almost have some tech built into them? Like almost a, I don't want to say like an autism dude, cause that-

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  You couldn't say that.

• 1:17:37Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  I think so. I mean, yeah, I, I, you know, to take the kind of like harshest look at us collectively, I can, you know, are we a little autistic on the whole? I would say probably, you know.

• 1:17:48Theo Von?

  I knew that shit.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  That's all right.

• 1:17:50Theo Von?

  No, no, that's what I'm saying. For years ago, I was meeting, first time I ever met some people with autism. I was like, dude, these guys are computers, right? Like a lot of these guys are just, you know, they're some, they're kind of like a little bit of a cyborg in some way in the way that they think, right?

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  You know, look, I'm, you are this like impossibly charming and cool guy. And I'm like, kind of a lot more computery than you.

• 1:18:10Theo Von?

  Not much though.

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  We can have it, we can still like figure it out.

• 1:18:13Theo Von?

  Yeah. And I really don't mean it as an offense, but I think that we may need that in people to get whatever's next in the world. Do you think that's realistic?

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think society needs like this very broad diversity of people. You need some people like me, you need some people who are more normal than me. You don't want too many of me, but like-

• 1:18:31Theo Von?

  Yeah, yeah, you don't want too many of any one thing, but yeah. Yeah, I'm just always, I'm like, God, yeah, these people are able to see things differently and quantify things differently. Do you always feel, because some tech guys, they just have a different understanding of possibility, right? A different understanding of feeling and thing. Do you feel human all the time?

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  I do feel human all the time, but I feel like I- I have noticed that I think extremely differently about the future, about exponential change, about compounding technology than than almost anybody else that I kind of come across in regular life. So.

• 1:19:06Theo Von?

  That's cool.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  I feel extremely human. I feel like, you know, driven by crazy emotions as much as anybody. But I am like very aware that I have a different lens than a lot of people.

• 1:19:17Theo Von?

  Have you met some people in text space? You're like, whoa, that guy is only like six or seven percent. He is low. He not a lot of human in him.

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:19:24Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

• 1:19:28Theo Von?

  Um, do you think it's inevitable that AI or AGI will merge into our bodies? I know you've talked about this before in the past. As things go along and advance quickly, do you start to see that a little bit differently? I know you've talked about how you don't think it's like a glasses thing or something like that.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  I'll tell you a fascinating story.

• 1:19:44Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  I was with a friend last week.

• 1:19:46Theo Von?

  And did I offend you by asking that?

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Not at all. Okay. Zero percent.

• 1:19:49Theo Von?

  I thought that was a great answer. I really appreciate it. Cause yes, some of us are, we can't conceptualize sometimes how you guys are thinking. It can't, I can't even like, we feel like we can't figure it out, you know? So it feels like it's almost like a unique, it's like, are we all evolving into this new kind of species? And that's where we meet the future at anyway. And you're just like the dang Paul Revere out there, you know, it's like.

• 1:20:10Speaker 01

  For better or for worse, I think whenever you see someone who thinks differently than you, it's like, like, I'm fascinated by you. I don't quite understand how you do your thing. I know I couldn't do it. I know you like just understand the world differently than me. But I think that's cool. And I'm just like, all right, I'm glad.

• 1:20:25Theo Von?

  Yeah, that's how I feel.

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:26Theo Von?

  I think it's just, thanks for just talking to me about it. Cause sometimes I think I get afraid to say.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  I don't think, I don't think you should be afraid. I don't think anybody would be offended by that. Um, I was talking to this friend of mine though, about how he uses chat GPT and he's been using it a lot for a couple of years now. And he noticed recently that he started, he started giving it personality tests. He'd upload any personality test he could find to chat GPT and say, based on what you know about me.

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  Answer this. And he had never, he had never like told it, here's my personality. It had just learned it from the questions he asked over the years. And on everyone he tried, it got exactly the answer and exactly the outcome he would get. And so that's not like, he didn't get uploaded, he didn't get merged, he didn't plug some into his brain, but somehow like the pattern of him had gotten imprinted into this AI.

• 1:21:15Theo Von?

  Wow. Maybe we're not as complex as we think we are.

• 1:21:19Speaker 01

  Or maybe we are and AI can just learn it really well. AI can like represent these very complex things, one of those two. But that was a real moment for me of like, wow, you know, the merge maybe can happen in a very different way than we thought.

• 1:21:33Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah. Cause you think of it as this thing kind of taking over your system and like, you know, your dad presses a button and you can't use the car, you know, you can't move for a month or whatever. Yeah. I think it kind of has that sort of energy. You just, you just finished the acquisition of, this is a little bit more like day to day business. You just finished the acquisition of Johnny Ives, a hardware company, their hardware company. So clearly you have some like thoughts or interest in how like hardware and AI match up for each other in humanity. What was that about?

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  There have been two revolutions in computers in history. There was the keyboard, mouse and screen, that thing that was invented down the street in, I think the seventies, where, you know, the people at Xerox PARC figured out what has become the modern computer interface. And then in the early to mid, the early 2000s, I guess, Apple figured out this idea of touch on a device. And really, those have been the two big ones. I think now there can be a third. I think AI is, it so changes the game that you can design a new kind of computer. Based off of a really smart AI where you can give a complex instruction to a system. It can go do it. You'll trust that it gets it right. You'll trust it to act on your behalf.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  It could like maybe be aware of everything going on in this room and it could like kinda not just be on or off, but like lightly get our attention if it wants us to know something or maybe more aggressively get our attention. It could really be like following what we're talking about here and remind us both of things later.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  And current hardware just can't do that. The current kind of computers we have, I don't think are a fair. They don't honor what the technology is not really capable of. So I want to make a totally new kind of computer that is meant for this world of AI helping you all the time. I'm super excited about it.

• 1:23:25Theo Von?

  You are?

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:30Theo Von?

  You guys, there's this thing called agent that you guys showed me earlier. I can take this out if I mention it and I wasn't supposed to. It was pretty fascinating. It was cool to see.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  It is. Yeah. This is a new thing that we just did. But the idea that an AI cannot just answer questions for you, but it can go actually do stuff on your behalf as your agent. It can go do research for you. It can go book something for you. It can go buy something for you. It can go like, you know, change some things in the world for you and think more and use tools like.

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  I think most people think of ChatGPT as this app that you can ask anything. But it'll become this thing that can do anything. And that'll change how you use computers. It'll change how you do things in your life.

• 1:24:10Theo Von?

  Yeah. I was watching the guy do it and it was just kinda fascinating. He was showing like one time he went to like a website and bought something he needed. And then now moving forward, he could just be like, hey, go to this and make sure to get me these or go to, go here and see, go to the restaurants I like and see if there's any table available for 7:00 PM tomorrow. And it was able to book it and do everything. It was like having a secretary right there.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  Totally. When I first started using it, I was like, it was one of those moments where I could tell that, oh, man, doing this the old fashioned way. Is gonna feel like the Stone Age so quickly. You know, I'm gonna like try to tell people someday like, do you remember when if we wanted to do something, we actually had to go like click around the internet and like, you know, look for a table and then if we wanted to move it, we had to like call the restaurant. And that's gonna be unimaginable because of course you just tell your AI to do those things for you.

• 1:25:00Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah, you feel like you would almost just tell it to go eat too, you know?

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  That's the fun part.

• 1:25:06Theo Von?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  No one likes booking the table. Everyone loves staying there eating.

• 1:25:08Theo Von?

  That's a good point, huh? Yeah, yeah, it won't take away the fun part. That's the thing. I think you gotta remember that it won't take away the fun part.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  You're gonna do the things you wanna do. There's a lot of things in your life you probably don't love doing. Like booking an open table is maybe one of them.

• 1:25:20Theo Von?

  Yeah. And then you'll have like old fashioned, be like, I'll book it, you know? You're like, Dad, what do you mean? Get off the phone or whatever. Don't call him, you fricking weirdo. Use a fricking, use your agent.

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:25:30Theo Von?

  Like, oh, I'll book it. There's, there's like a lot of like, you know, Zuckerberg recently like kinda was poaching guys around town, right? And I'll say it, you don't have to say it allegedly. I'm not saying he did. He hired one of my buddies. But what I'm saying is, there's this hypothetical that he was like kinda poaching guys around town. Is that, did it, did that feel like a mafioso move in the community? What was that like out here on, out here in the tech trenches?

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, they wanna get into the AI game. I understand it. So, and if he's gonna do this, he needs to hire some people. So bring it. So bring it.

• 1:26:08Theo Von?

  So bring it. Yeah. Okay, dude. I'm gonna upload myself into this plant in a second. Okay, no. But no, does it, do you kinda like the competition? Is that fun?

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  It is, it's, yeah, like winning is fun. And I expect to win.

• 1:26:23Theo Von?

  And you gotta love the competition. That's part of it, right? It makes it fun.

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  I think what it would be like if we didn't have competition and drama in the world.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  It'd be so boring.

• 1:26:35Theo Von?

  Could, uh.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Actually, can I say one more thing about that?

• 1:26:37Theo Von?

  Sure.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  The best improvement I made in my life, in my like personally in my life and for my own happiness over the last couple of years, got a lot of bad shit has happened to us. To me, it's been like a crazy intense experience and I just decided that I was gonna like learn to love the hard parts. I was like, you know what? If I'm in this crazy moment, if I'm in this like crazy thing, if I like feel my emotions are high, I'm gonna like make myself learn to be grateful for that, to love it, to find enjoyment in the, in the tension, in the competition, whatever. And actually it worked. And it, it kinda needed to work cause like so many things go wrong in any given day. But I was like thinking about, you know, someday I'll be like retired on my ranch. I'll be sitting there watching the plants grow and I'll be missing the excitement and the drama and the anger and the tension and the whatever.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  And so I'm gonna be like grateful for it and like learn to have fun with it. And now it, like I cannot believe that that mind shift, mindset shift worked, but it did.

• 1:27:32Theo Von?

  And where their practices like in a moment, like say like a moment came up, like some of the early ones, right? Cause I agree with you that like having some mindset, like I used to hate traveling at like every week traveling for work, but then one day I was like, dude, you have to travel for work. Deal with it.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  You may as well.

• 1:27:46Theo Von?

  Right. You may as well fuck, cause for years you've been a, and right there, suddenly it wasn't bad anymore.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  That happened for me too.

• 1:27:52Theo Von?

  Was there like a, just a practice or was it just this verbal reminder? Like I'm gonna do this?

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  I just kept saying it to myself. I was just like, someday you'll miss these moments. You may as well find a way to like find the happiness and kind of great gratitude for them in the moment.

• 1:28:07Theo Von?

  Yeah. Um, a lot of these guys have bunkers. Zucky has a bunkie. I know that somewhere out in Hawaii. People have bunkers. Do you have a bunker?

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  I have like underground, concrete, heavy reinforced basements, but I don't have anything I would call a bunker.

• 1:28:24Theo Von?

  Hold on, hold on, dude. Look, I'll let you, I'll let you keep me on the ropes in a lot of this conversation, but I am gonna call that out as a dang bunker, dude. Sam, that's a bunker.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  What's that, just in a basement in a bunker?

• 1:28:36Theo Von?

  A place you could hide when it all goes off or whatever.

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  I know. Yeah, I have been thinking I should really do a good version of one of those, but I don't, I don't have like a, I don't have what I would call a bunker, but it has been on my mind. Not because of AI, but just because of like, people are dropping bombs in the world again and you know, like.

• 1:28:54Theo Von?

  That's a good point. That's a very good point. Yeah, basement right there, part of a house building typically used for storage, laundry, extra living, space or utilities. And then bunker built for protection, often military or emergency related, meant to withstand explosions.

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  We don't have that yet. Do you guys do this just for me or do you use ChatGPT as the fact check?

• 1:29:14Theo Von?

  We did this just for you.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  I appreciate it. This is nice.

• 1:29:17Theo Von?

  If, could we, could we ever have instead of, so you start to see, say if AI comes over and there's this whole new kind of like, um, you know, I believe that one of the things that's been happening, there's been like a lot of like ICE raids and people getting like taken out of their homes and, um, uh, you know, um, there's been a lot of crackdown. Cause part of me believes that they're having to get everybody documented or online basically, because they're gonna start to have this pers- like, uh, this, like, facial recognition everywhere. Like I have this idea of that. So yes, this stuff had to happen because in a year or year and a half, you wouldn't even be able to be outdoors anywhere, anywhere without a drone or something noticing you or some camera noticing that you're not supposed to be there

• 1:30:01Theo Von?

  or you're not there with documentation, right? Whatever people's thoughts are on that. But just, so part of me starts to see like, oh, okay, that's going on. Do you think we could ever then, down the line, have new countries like delineated by, like, almost like a new AI landscape? Like, remember when on Snapchat, if you were in a certain realm, you could put like a filter on something?

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:22Theo Von?

  And they almost created these new like, cool, like, geo barriers and stuff? Do you think we could potentially be looking at something like that one day?

• 1:30:31Speaker 01

  I know that what you just said is gonna happen. I know that we're gonna have like cameras on, you know, all over the place and it's gonna make the cities way safer. Because everybody, like if you commit a crime, they'll have like a facial recognition hit on you right away. But man, do I find that dystopic. Like.

• 1:30:48Theo Von?

  You do.

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  Of course, like, you know, is it like a good trade if it means like people stop getting murdered in the streets? Yeah, sure. We agree to like, give up some privacy for that. But it it sits so uncomfortably with me. You know, in like London or whatever, you see those cameras on every street corner.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  And you're just like, you get used to it fast.

• 1:31:08Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  But you're just like, oh, it feels like.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  Privacy is important and and like you. You really are like, there's nothing I can do to live in the world and avoid all these cameras. And maybe it's worth it for society collectively, but it.

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  It it feels like we really do give up a lot to get it.

• 1:31:31Theo Von?

  But could there one day you think if we had that, then we could have whole new countries kind of that were?

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  What do you mean by new countries in this case?

• 1:31:37Theo Von?

  Like, say if there was this new kind of.

• 1:31:41Theo Von?

  This new like layer, right, of surveillance layer that's kind of in the in the air.

• 1:31:50Theo Von?

  Then could that be divided into different realms?

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, totally. That can. I think there's all kinds of weird ways that that can happen, but.

• 1:31:59Speaker 01

  But the surveillance layer is so uncomfortable.

• 1:32:01Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah, it's gonna be a nasty blanket.

• 1:32:05Theo Von?

  Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about? You wanted to get out that you want me to ask you about?

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  No, that was great.

• 1:32:10Theo Von?

  Oh, why are there? Why does chat GPT have that hyphen thing?

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  We we gotta do something about that.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  You know, we have this team that. Figures out what the model's personality should be like and how it should behave. And a lot of users like M dashes, so we added more M dashes. And now I think we have too many M dashes. But that's the answer is it was just like users liked it. We put more in. Now it's like a little bit of a meme and it's kind of it's quite annoying to me. We should. We should fix that.

• 1:32:38Theo Von?

  But you're thinking about it, too.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  I think we'll get it fixed very soon.

• 1:32:40Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 1:32:42Theo Von?

  Before you go, Sam, and thank you so much for your time today.

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  It's been awesome.

• 1:32:44Theo Von?

  We appreciate it, man. It's helped me get to understand you. I feel like a lot. I think maybe differently than I. I don't know if I had a perception. I didn't know what to think.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  What's the before and after?

• 1:32:54Theo Von?

  The before was like a little bit like.

• 1:33:01Theo Von?

  I guess I almost thought kinda like not as hopeful. But I don't know why, maybe that's just my own, I think it's attached to my own perceptions of what I think about AI and stuff, or the possibilities of technology, you know, like that kinda stuff, like that curmudgeonly energy. I think I was probably attaching it to you. And now I feel like I'm more whimsical about it, kind of like, or not whimsical, but like, let's see what can happen, right? And so I think that's pretty fascinating.

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  I think it's not just let's see, it's like, let's try to make it good, but let's realize that you have to like, you don't get to see all the way down the road. You kinda gotta go one turn at a time and you like light up a little bit more.

• 1:33:38Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, I don't know. I just, I'm really, I'm really thankful for you even letting me tell you what I thought, what I was like judging and then, and then sharing like kinda where I thought, what I thought now. In 20 years, what do you hope your legacy will be?

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  I

• 1:33:54Theo Von?

  You're gonna have one.

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, I guess. I

• 1:33:56Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  You certainly don't, only anyone sits around while they're in like the middle of the game thinking about, you know, what the review's gonna be after. At least I don't. And

• 1:34:08Theo Von?

  But this is a big review you'll have.

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  I have never been that motivated by like what, like I wanna like play the game the best I can. I wanna like, you know,

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  do the best work I can, have the most fun, like have the most impact or the most interesting stuff. But then, you know, you retire and then you die and then like life goes on and people, as they're supposed to, go on with life and forget about you. And this whole thing of like, I'm gonna live for how I'm remembered after I die and my legacy and like, you're dead, you know?

• 1:34:40Theo Von?

  Do you have one of those deals where you save in your heart with those people?

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 1:34:45Theo Von?

  Your brain, sorry, with the people over there? Cryonics, you have a cryonic deal?

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  No, I

• 1:34:51Theo Von?

  Have you been approached about it?

• 1:34:52Speaker 01

  I have been approached by it. There was like a

• 1:34:54Theo Von?

  You haven't even fucking approached me, you haven't asked for anything?

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  There was this like Y company or company that I like helped out a long time ago by like giving some small deposit and then like I never followed up on it, so I don't have anything in place.

• 1:35:06Theo Von?

  Okay. But maybe, yeah, maybe just a down payment somewhere down there. If things get weird, we'll go knock on their door. Yeah, but thank you so much, man. James Bouchere says hello. He's a friend of mine. He's a great guy. And we just appreciate you so much. Sam, thanks for your time. Thanks for doing this. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for your time today. I thought it was very informative.

• 1:35:52Speaker 04

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