You Should Start a Podcast with Your Sibling with Michelle and Craig

In a small shared bedroom in a rented house on Euclid Avenue in Chicago, Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson built a special sibling bond. In their first episode, the former First Lady and her best friend and big brother share stories about being there for each other throughout their lives, from first-crushes and fraught college years to landing at the White House and losing their mom. For six decades they’ve been each others’ most trusted counsel—and now, they want to be that counsel for you. Are you struggling with a family dilemma? Stuck in a rut you don’t know how to move through? Michelle and Craig are ready, armed with the values they learned from Marian and Fraser Robinson in that little house on the South Side. Write to Michelle and Craig to get their advice in response to questions about career, love, parenting and beyond. From the every day to the existential, Miche and Craig want to hear from you at imopod.com http://imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Michelle Obama?

  A lot of people have questions. They want to know, especially when they see somebody of note with a platform who, you know, by every measure, looks successful. The first question is, how? I think this podcast, first and foremost, gives us an opportunity to hear from folks. You know, we're going to be taking, you know, questions from, from listeners who are going through, through some things and just need a little advice. They want to hear from people in conversations. And, and folks are looking for a place where they can just, they, they can hear stories, you know? I mean, what I realize is like, by sharing some of these stories, you know, it, it always

• 0:43Michelle Obama?

  taps into something from somebody else. People, you know, they want to hear some honest kind of conversation about how people are working it through. And we don't have all the answers, you know? I mean, this show isn't about us be, being experts at anything other than the lives that we've lived. But what we do have are a lot of opinions.

• 1:07Craig Robinson?

  Hence the name.

• 1:09Michelle Obama?

  In my opinion. I M O. This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Pine-Sol.

• 1:22Craig Robinson?

  Well, I'm, I'm Craig Robinson, and you all know my sister, Michelle Obama. And we're doing this podcast together. And it's, it's really exciting to be working with you on this project.

• 1:37Michelle Obama?

  You know, some people react like, hmm, you're doing a podcast with your brother?

• 1:41Craig Robinson?

  Why would you do that?

• 1:42Michelle Obama?

  I know, really. But our dynamic is so, in my view, unique. I think there are plenty of siblings who have great relationships. But, you know, I think when we think back to where that came from, we think about, I think about just the physical closeness that we had. I mean, we were, we weren't wealthy.

• 2:04Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 2:05Michelle Obama?

  And dad was working class. We lived in the same apartment our whole lives and had to grow into that. And as a result, you and me, we were, we were physically close growing up.

• 2:16Craig Robinson?

  Yeah. Remember when we used to share a bedroom?

• 2:18Michelle Obama?

  Of, of course. That was our, our life growing up. We shared the same room until you went to high school, right?

• 2:28Craig Robinson?

  That's, that's right.

• 2:29Michelle Obama?

  Well, let's first just recall how small the apartment we lived in. You know, it seemed like it was huge, but it was essentially two bedrooms, right?

• 2:39Craig Robinson?

  No, it was one bedroom.

• 2:42Michelle Obama?

  Well, that little offshoot bedroom that mom and dad stayed in, that was, you would consider that a bedroom.

• 2:48Craig Robinson?

  But that was the only bedroom. The room we were in was actually the living room. And the living room that we, what we called the living room was actually the dining room.

• 2:57Michelle Obama?

  Huh, okay. All right, so that's how small it was.

• 3:00Craig Robinson?

  That's how small it was.

• 3:01Michelle Obama?

  We had to turn it into something else. But the biggest room was always ours.

• 3:05Craig Robinson?

  Yes.

• 3:06Michelle Obama?

  And we were little, little, like baby littles.

• 3:08Craig Robinson?

  Like five and three.

• 3:10Michelle Obama?

  The twin beds were head to head with like an end table in between.

• 3:15Craig Robinson?

  And we had matching spreads.

• 3:17Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, that mom made.

• 3:18Craig Robinson?

  That mom made.

• 3:19Michelle Obama?

  They were these-

• 3:20Craig Robinson?

  She sewed them.

• 3:20Michelle Obama?

  Big, bold stripes and the twin beds were up against the wall. And she had the concept of creating like these little padding boards.

• 3:30Craig Robinson?

  Yes.

• 3:30Michelle Obama?

  You know, she was so crafty, so she created these foam pads that she hung along the side to make them decorative, but to also provide us with a little cushion-

• 3:39Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 3:40Michelle Obama?

  -against the wall, which was, we thought was so cool.

• 3:44Craig Robinson?

  I remember you had a bed guard because you were so little.

• 3:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I sort of remember that, yeah.

• 3:50Craig Robinson?

  You still probably should have been in a crib.

• 3:53Michelle Obama?

  Maybe so, but yeah, I do remember-

• 3:55Craig Robinson?

  You remember that?

• 3:56Michelle Obama?

  You guys would tell me I'd fall out of the bed, start crying, get put back in the bed and I wouldn't remember anything about it.

• 4:03Craig Robinson?

  You wouldn't remember any of it and everybody else would be wide awake and you'd be snoring.

• 4:07Michelle Obama?

  I didn't snore, now you're making stuff.

• 4:09Craig Robinson?

  But then from there, from there, we went to, and, and I am trying to remember what age, when our grandfather, Southside, built us this tea.

• 4:23Michelle Obama?

  Partition wall.

• 4:23Craig Robinson?

  Partition wall. So then we had our own bedrooms in that same room.

• 4:28Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:28Craig Robinson?

  So it went from a one room, one big room into three small rooms.

• 4:33Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 4:34Craig Robinson?

  Your bedroom was on the right, mine was on the left. And then we had a common area in the front where mom, once again, crafty, built us desks on each side where we could do our homework.

• 4:47Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, you tell that that was some poverty crafting, right? That's like Martha Stewart on a budget.

• 4:56Michelle Obama?

  But that wall was just, we were still sleeping head to head, but just on the other side of a wall. And it was special to me because that's, that's, I feel like that's where our, our real relationship began. Because it's like, we would talk for hours, you know? We'd go to bed, we're supposed to be asleep. And we'd stay up all night just talking through that little partition.

• 5:27Craig Robinson?

  We thought it was all night, but because we had to go to bed at 7:30, it was probably like 8:30. But we talked till about 10 o'clock and mom would finally come in there. If you all don't go to bed, go to sleep.

• 5:40Michelle Obama?

  But it was really sweet because I remember being able to talk to you, even at that young age, about anything, what happened during the day. You know, the little drama and the outside world, you know, just, and just laughing all night long.

• 5:55Craig Robinson?

  All night.

• 5:56Michelle Obama?

  About nothing, making up silly games, you know? It started that young.

• 6:02Craig Robinson?

  Well, what's really ironic is that we were talking about how small our place was.

• 6:09Michelle Obama?

  Growing up, our house, yeah.

• 6:11Craig Robinson?

  And then, look where we're doing this taping in this big, beautiful Airbnb.

• 6:16Michelle Obama?

  Airbnb.

• 6:17Craig Robinson?

  Got a little more room here.

• 6:18Michelle Obama?

  No, who would have thought we'd be able to be in a schnazzy place like this?

• 6:23Craig Robinson?

  You know, our, this podcast is going to be about you and, you and I trying to let people in on some of the lessons that we learned as kids and as, and growing up and, you know, from mom and dad, but also from different teachers and coaches and things we've learned along the way. And Let me ask you this, what is one of the lessons that you learned from mom and dad that really sticks out to you?

• 6:54Michelle Obama?

  Well, when I think about what we're talking about now, our relationship as brother and sister, why, you know, we're so excited about doing this podcast, not because we love to talk and we love, we got lots of opinions, but, you know, especially since mom passed, you know, this is a joint project that you and me have, and I think it's the first time we've actually worked together and helping people to understand where does that foundation come from, where you and I feel so comfortable with each other and we have our whole lives where we can not only work together, but share what has helped to make us close.

• 7:37Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 7:38Michelle Obama?

  I think about not just our bedroom space in that little bitty first apartment on Euclid Avenue, but I think about the kitchen table, because the kitchen was the other gathering place. And in our house, you know, we as young people with our parents, what they did for us was they invited us to sit with them at the table and talk. And I think very early on, because our parents had the wisdom to understand how wise kids could be and how important their voices were and how much fun it was to not just have kids just seen

• 8:19Michelle Obama?

  and not heard. In our household, our parents wanted to not just see us, but they wanted to hear us. They wanted to hear our ideas. They wanted to hear our opinions. I think that our parents offered us both the first table where we gained confidence in our voices, where we felt like who we were, what we thought, how we felt was important. And not because it was important to the rest of the world, but it was important to them.

• 8:51Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 8:52Michelle Obama?

  You know, and I think that's, that's a piece of wisdom in terms of parenting that I try to share. I try to implement in my own life. But our parents Wanted to hear from us. They, they, they loved our thoughts and ideas and they encouraged us to say what was on our mind, do it respectfully for sure. But that, you know, a lot of kids don't grow up like that.

• 9:20Craig Robinson?

  They sure don't. And, you know, I'm always asked how mom and dad came to be the type of parents that they were, that would be the type to let their kids come into the kitchen table and share in the conversation rather than being lectured to. And I always remember mom always, when, when we would always ask mom, how do you know something? She was like, well, I don't know everything.

• 9:46Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 9:48Craig Robinson?

  I don't know what to tell you.

• 9:49Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. She was never afraid to tell us when she wasn't sure.

• 9:54Craig Robinson?

  When she wasn't sure. And she said, let me think about it and get back to you. And that was one of the most powerful things as a parent.

• 10:02Michelle Obama?

  Like you don't, you, you're not supposed to know everything.

• 10:05Craig Robinson?

  You don't have to know everything. And it's better to say you don't know than to make up something or lie or get yourself caught in a position where your kids come back to you and say, you gave me bad advice.

• 10:20Michelle Obama?

  And a lot of parents are, you know, you, a lot of parents think that a part of being the parent is to be the one with all the knowledge, with all the answers. And because our, our parents didn't do that, it also gave us permission and taught us that, like in life, you are in a learning process all the time.

• 10:42Craig Robinson?

  All the time.

• 10:43Michelle Obama?

  And it's okay to be wrong. And it's okay to stumble. Mom and dad were also very good talking to us, not just about their successes, but about their failures, what they did wrong, what they got wrong in life. And I see that time and time again. Parents feel like they need a shield of all knowingness in order for their kids to respect them or in order to keep them safe. It's like, let me not share with you how I messed up.

• 11:11Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 11:11Michelle Obama?

  Up a few times.

• 11:12Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 11:13Michelle Obama?

  And I never felt the, the, the pressure of their judgment or their expectation in our lives.

• 11:20Craig Robinson?

  And it's funny you say that because it, this reminds me of my favorite lesson from them.

• 11:28Craig Robinson?

  When you, when you talk about there's never any judgment. The only time mom and dad would really be upset with us is if we said, well, so and so said, I should be doing this. And how about that word so and so?

• 11:46Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, that's a big Robinson term. Who are these so and so?

• 11:49Craig Robinson?

  Who's so and so?

• 11:50Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, it's just.

• 11:51Craig Robinson?

  So and so?

• 11:51Michelle Obama?

  So and so was always a little trifling. That's all, that's all I remember about so and so.

• 11:56Craig Robinson?

  So and so was trouble. If you hung out with so and so, you were going to get in trouble.

• 12:00Michelle Obama?

  That's the only, you know, way you were going to ruin your life is following in behind so and so.

• 12:06Craig Robinson?

  And, and mom would be so, meet so and so. Well, but my point is, if you ever came in the house and said, one of your friends, somebody outside of the family said, you should do something, or you should be something, or how about let's try this? And you followed in behind them?

• 12:26Michelle Obama?

  And that was your rationale?

• 12:29Craig Robinson?

  That is when you caught it.

• 12:30Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:31Craig Robinson?

  And.

• 12:32Michelle Obama?

  Not thinking for yourself.

• 12:34Craig Robinson?

  Not thinking for yourself and having enough confidence in your decision-making process. To make decisions for yourself and not because somebody wanted you to. Well, you know, I wanted to wear bell-bottom jeans because everybody else is wearing them. Shoot, that was the.

• 12:50Michelle Obama?

  That was the wrong answer.

• 12:51Craig Robinson?

  That was the way to not get your bell-bottom jeans. If you could come up with a reason why you wanted them, then you'd have some bell-bottom jeans. But if you said, I'm not doing this because of somebody out in the streets, as dad would say. You out here listening to these guys?

• 13:05Michelle Obama?

  So and so out in the streets.

• 13:06Craig Robinson?

  This so and so in the streets, forget it.

• 13:10Michelle Obama?

  Well, that, you know, you also made me think that, you know, another thing that I think mom and dad was so wise about was because in, in order for them to, to push us to use our own judgment, they. They empowered us to make decisions and be responsible very early in life. And that meant, um, think for yourself. But, but in order to, to do that, they had to sort of hand us our lives pretty young. And I'm, I'm not saying that they went off to work and left us alone, but I've said this before, you know, very early on, mom was like, you, you're going to kindergarten now? Here's an alarm clock. Here's how to set it.

• 13:54Michelle Obama?

  Set it, get yourself up. Because as she said, you're going to school for you, not for me. She's like, I had my education and I don't believe that if you care about yours, that you need your mom to be waking you up every morning. So from the time we started kindergarten, you know, now she was up. It wasn't like she was sleeping in. She was just listening to hear us.

• 14:18Craig Robinson?

  Get ourselves up.

• 14:19Michelle Obama?

  Get ourselves up. Start getting dressed. When we got a little older, even start our own breakfast. And in the era of helicopter parenting, where, where people are waking up their kids, even calling them from college, mom and dad were the opposite of that. Because, and in doing so, they were telling us, I trust you even at five or seven, you have the capability of like taking care of yourself. You know, and you know, I love you, but I gotta get you ready for the life you're gonna have as an adult. And that means that if I'm, if you can't even wake yourself up and get yourself to kindergarten, you know, that's how mom and dad would think about it.

• 15:04Michelle Obama?

  It's like, so they, they showed us that we were capable. And guess what happened? We rose to that expectation. It was like, I, I, and probably to this day, I don't do late.

• 15:19Craig Robinson?

  Oh, not, not in the Robinson household?

• 15:21Michelle Obama?

  Not in the Robinson household, you know? We don't do.

• 15:24Craig Robinson?

  On time is late?

• 15:25Michelle Obama?

  On time is late is early is on time.

• 15:27Craig Robinson?

  That's Fraser Robinson.

• 15:30Craig Robinson?

  And this, this is a guy who was, you know, for him to be on time, he had to prepare because it was hard for him to get around and get dressed.

• 15:38Michelle Obama?

  Our dad had a disability, yeah.

• 15:40Craig Robinson?

  The fact that he had a disability didn't make him have an excuse for anything, particularly being late. So much so, mom used to be mad at him because he would get ready so early.

• 15:53Michelle Obama?

  He'd keep pushing the time of departure for a family outing. It's like, well, we're gonna leave at three and he's sitting there at two going, well, where is everybody? And it's like, you said three, but.

• 16:04Craig Robinson?

  And I would get ready earlier just to keep him company.

• 16:07Michelle Obama?

  Well, Barack, you know, he had to adjust to what on time was for me.

• 16:12Craig Robinson?

  Because he was on that island time, that brother.

• 16:14Michelle Obama?

  You know, I've got this husband who's like, when it's time to leave, it's three o'clock, he's getting up and going to the bathroom. And I was like, dude, dude, like, three, a three o'clock departure means you've done all that, you know? It's like, don't start looking for your glasses, you know, at the three o'clock departure. But he's improved over, over 30 years of, of marriage. But that was a, you know, that was, you must adjust. And Malia and Sasha, if they're doing anything with me, they are early.

• 16:42Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 16:42Michelle Obama?

  So they, they've learned how to snap to it. But that was, you know, those kind of lessons from parents, when you think you're helping your kid, you know, because you're worried about them failing, you don't want them to be late, you don't want them to get a not so great grade on their project, that you start stepping in and, and facilitating way more and not letting kids like hit bumps. You're delaying their, I think their ability to understand that their lives are theirs. And you also are sending them a subliminal message that they're not capable.

• 17:24Craig Robinson?

  That they're not good enough. Right.

• 17:25Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:26Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 17:27Michelle Obama?

  Mom and dad didn't do that to us.

• 17:30Craig Robinson?

  No.

• 17:30Michelle Obama?

  But I started thinking too, I was just thinking of another story, we're flip flopping around. But when I think about our relationship.

• 17:39Michelle Obama?

  You know, the other thing that I liked and I try to do with my kids is like, we were close.

• 17:45Craig Robinson?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:46Michelle Obama?

  We were close physically, emotionally, all of that, but we were not codependent.

• 17:54Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 17:54Michelle Obama?

  And we weren't allowed to be.

• 17:56Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 17:56Michelle Obama?

  Like, because you were a nurturer, you were a natural, on your own, a worrier, a guardian, you took on, just temperamentally, extra worries and responsibilities.

• 18:11Craig Robinson?

  That's right.

• 18:12Michelle Obama?

  Mom understood that she couldn't in any way imply to you that you were responsible for me, because you would have taken that on and gone off the deep end with it.

• 18:25Craig Robinson?

  Right. Right, I would have been your caretaker rather than your brother.

• 18:29Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, in grammar school. And I think that's another thing sometimes parents do with siblings. Like, you make one responsible for the other. Now you've got a kid trying to be a parent. And that leads to nothing but resentment on both parts. You know, if you were trying to parent me, that would have replaced the special relationship that is my brother.

• 18:57Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 18:57Michelle Obama?

  You know, which is something very different. I didn't need a father, I didn't need a mother, I needed a big brother. And so you were fully free to be that for me, and I wasn't your burden.

• 19:17Craig Robinson?

  Well, you know, another story I think about is how mom and dad trained us to work hard.

• 19:27Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:28Craig Robinson?

  Do you remember the chores?

• 19:29Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah, we had chores very early on, very early on. That's another thing, I think, you know. One of the best things that our parents did for us is...

• 19:40Craig Robinson?

  Real work.

• 19:41Michelle Obama?

  Real, real work around the house.

• 19:43Craig Robinson?

  And what I mean by real work is I had, my chores were to clean the bathroom.

• 19:50Michelle Obama?

  I cleaned the bathroom, what are you talking about?

• 19:53Craig Robinson?

  You...

• 19:54Michelle Obama?

  We alternated.

• 19:54Craig Robinson?

  We alternated weeks.

• 19:56Michelle Obama?

  Okay, because I loved cleaning the bathroom.

• 19:57Craig Robinson?

  And I didn't, but I had to do it. Mom wanted us both to know how to have a clean bathroom. But my every weekend job...

• 20:08Craig Robinson?

  Was cleaning those stairs.

• 20:11Michelle Obama?

  Oh, that's right. Yeah.

• 20:12Craig Robinson?

  We had 14 stairs. Notice, I remember how many there were.

• 20:17Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, you had to. Yeah.

• 20:18Craig Robinson?

  That.

• 20:19Michelle Obama?

  Went from.

• 20:19Craig Robinson?

  Went from our apartment down to our aunt, great aunt Robbie's apartment. And this is what I remember about Saturday morning. You remember that tin pot?

• 20:30Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 20:30Craig Robinson?

  That we used to have. We had a tin pot, a pot now that used to be on the stove, which was now used for cleaning. And you put a little soap, dish soap in it. And then you put Pine-Sol.

• 20:42Michelle Obama?

  Ooh, not like Pine-Sol.

• 20:44Craig Robinson?

  And there was nothing like that smell. Like when you came home from school and mom had been mopping and you could smell the Pine-Sol. It was usually Monday because she had laundry on Monday. You come home from school and it smells like, ah, new house.

• 20:59Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 21:00Craig Robinson?

  And I have to say that I still to this day, when I'm mopping, if we don't have that pine oil smell.

• 21:14Michelle Obama?

  That's it.

• 21:14Craig Robinson?

  That's it, isn't it?

• 21:15Michelle Obama?

  That's it.

• 21:16Craig Robinson?

  And here we are in adulthood and they're a partner of ours on this podcast.

• 21:21Michelle Obama?

  Well, you know, an appropriate partner.

• 21:24Craig Robinson?

  How about it? So when you, when, when you get a chance out there, visit Pine-Sol.com and find out where you can shop for your Pine-Sol. This episode is brought to you by Rivian and their fully electric, full-sized SUVs and pickups that are designed for all of life's adventures. The folks at Rivian lent me an R1S to drive around while I'm here in LA and it has been awesome. You know, I'm 6'6" and there is plenty of leg room and headroom for a guy like me. In addition, there's also great cargo space for my luggage. So learn more right now at Rivian.com. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Theraplu. As a product that was created to provide effective and comforting relief when you're

• 22:09Craig Robinson?

  fighting the flu or a cold, Theraplu firmly believes that the ability to rest and recover when sick should be a right, not a privilege. You know, I think back to the time when my dad was working for the city of Chicago as a stationary fireman, and it seemed to us that he never missed work and he never got sick. But what we realized is that my dad didn't want to take his paid sick time because he wasn't sure if he would keep his job by doing that. And my sister and I realized that my dad was, would be sick, but he just thugged through it.

• 22:51Craig Robinson?

  It was a difficult thing for him to deal with then, and unfortunately, so many Americans still face this pressure today. 27 million Americans still lack paid sick time, which causes them to have to choose between losing a day's pay and getting the proper rest they need in order to get better. And, and what's worse, this all too common issue disproportionately impacts lower income individuals. Theraplu created the Rest and Recover Fund, which has committed nearly $1 million to provide micro grants to workers to help offset the financial burden of taking an unpaid sick day.

• 23:32Craig Robinson?

  It's been making a big impact and Theraplu is committed to keeping the fight going as everyone deserves the right to rest and recover. Learn more or help someone apply for the fund at theraplu.com/righttorecover.

• 23:54Craig Robinson?

  I'm so happy that we're doing this together. And this show in and of itself is just bringing me down memory lane. But let's talk about some times when we had to actually, since you were talking about looking out for each other, when we had to lean on each other.

• 24:14Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 24:15Craig Robinson?

  For advice. And I'll, I'll start because I remember talking to you before I talked to mom about going into coaching.

• 24:27Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah, that's right.

• 24:28Craig Robinson?

  And I want to tell you a story about when I leaned on you. And I want to tell a story about when I didn't lean on you. The, when I leaned on you, I was, well, I should tell the story chronologically. Because when I didn't lean on you happened before I leaned on you. Just in this example, was when I was going through my first, my first divorce, my only divorce.

• 24:55Craig Robinson?

  And I didn't tell you about it.

• 24:57Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 24:58Craig Robinson?

  And the reason I didn't tell my sister about it, or my mom, or anybody close to me.

• 25:03Michelle Obama?

  Or that just the challenges you guys were facing.

• 25:06Craig Robinson?

  Were facing was because I know my sister. And I said, if I tell her about this, she's never gonna get over it.

• 25:17Craig Robinson?

  And if we ever got back together, it wasn't gonna, it wasn't gonna be good for my first wife. So I was trying to hold off telling everybody. But the first person I did tell was Meech. And she was so mad that I hadn't told her and so disappointed that I vowed that I would never not tell her, hold anything from you. Because I had never done that ever and haven't done it since.

• 25:46Michelle Obama?

  Well, because it was also interesting because I could see that something was going on, that there was a disconnect because we were, we were close. I mean, we, you know, as we had our periods in life where we would come together. Together, be apart, you know, life would bring us together. We wound up going to the same college. We didn't go to the same high school because you went to an all-boys school and I went to a magnet high school.

• 26:13Craig Robinson?

  And Whitney Young wasn't open.

• 26:15Michelle Obama?

  It wasn't. You probably would have gone, but it was a brand-new school.

• 26:17Craig Robinson?

  Brand-new.

• 26:18Michelle Obama?

  And because you were a student athlete, you needed a good, solid basketball program, and they hadn't developed it at Whitney Young. So we weren't in the same high school. And that was a good thing because we had times in our lives when we were in the same school, sort of in the same orbit, and then we weren't. And then I followed you to Princeton, you know, where you were two years ahead of me and big man on campus there, too, because he was all Ivy on the basketball team and, you know, all this sort of stuff. So everybody knew Craig. I was always Craig Robinson's little sister. That, you know, I'm really enjoying the payback of Craig Robinson now being Michelle Obama's brother.

• 27:03Craig Robinson?

  Boy, times have changed.

• 27:05Michelle Obama?

  But I grew up as Craig's little sister. It's like, oh, you Craig little sister. I was like, yeah, yeah. But I do other things, too.

• 27:13Craig Robinson?

  It's more fun being Michelle Obama's big brother. Much more fun.

• 27:18Michelle Obama?

  But even in those moments when we were in the same orbit, we were close, but again, in the same way, not overly dependent. We had our own friends. We had, you know, you'd know if I was dating somebody, because that was the other thing. Dating, like, big man on campus in college, I think you scared off a lot of potential.

• 27:38Craig Robinson?

  You would have had way more dates. You had way more dates once I graduated.

• 27:42Michelle Obama?

  Yes, I did. I think people didn't want to piss off Craig.

• 27:46Craig Robinson?

  And it wasn't like I was trying to

• 27:47Michelle Obama?

  No, no.

• 27:48Craig Robinson?

  mark any territory or anything. It was just, you know.

• 27:50Michelle Obama?

  Your presence.

• 27:51Craig Robinson?

  It's just walk around, people get nervous.

• 27:55Michelle Obama?

  And then you graduate, then you go off and you play basketball. You have a whole nother experience. You move to Manchester, England and play in Europe for a couple of years. And so you're coming and going. And then you get married. And I was very close with you and your first wife. We were not inseparable, but it was a close family. We did things together. And then Avery was born and we were always right there. We were very tight knit family. And then I met Barack and, you know, then we got married and we bought a condo right down the street from your condo.

• 28:33Craig Robinson?

  Like three buildings down.

• 28:34Michelle Obama?

  Three buildings down in Hyde Park in Chicago. So that was a period when we were around each other a lot. And when you see your brother and you think his or your sibling or somebody you care about and you think everything is good, you know, and you're rooting for them. And then you learn that things are falling apart because you think. I thought I saw some things that were red flags, but I would always be like, how you doing? And your reply would be, we're great. We're good.

• 29:04Craig Robinson?

  Fine.

• 29:05Michelle Obama?

  Fine, you know? And after that, once it all unraveled, I said, your definition of fine. I was like, don't ever tell me that you're good because I'm not going to trust that. You know? Because it would have been like, even though you think I wouldn't have been able to handle it, I would have gotten myself together to give you sound advice and be able to stay neutral. But I felt like the dude I depend on the most, who I could tell anything couldn't, didn't feel like he could come to me when he was dealing with something really hard in his life, which is his marriage falling apart.

• 29:42Craig Robinson?

  That was a mistake. That was, that was a mistake and I've learned since then. But I talk about you all the time to people because now that you're an icon, people are like, what's your sister like? I was like, listen. This woman used to take care of me from the time she when, when, all the way back to when you used to play the piano for me.

• 30:07Craig Robinson?

  Before games, yes, people, before my high school basketball games, my elementary school sister would play the piano so I could take a nap. And you'd play, even after I went to sleep, you kept playing, teaching me how to dance.

• 30:25Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yes, you needed help.

• 30:26Craig Robinson?

  Before I would go to the prom.

• 30:28Michelle Obama?

  Cause he was just, he was on the court and he hadn't learned like some basic moves. So it's like, dude, your first dance, you've got to. So we put on the record player and I gave you a couple of moves that you are still doing to this day.

• 30:41Craig Robinson?

  Do these moves to today.

• 30:43Michelle Obama?

  It's good, though. It's you staying in the pocket.

• 30:45Craig Robinson?

  Stay in, stay in there. But the, but what I think about, when I think about us relying on each other, when I made the move from corporate America to become a coach. And, and the reason that was such a big deal was, you know, I was, I was a bond trader, salesperson in investment banking and finance and big time job, really good living. And I was contemplating

• 31:15Craig Robinson?

  stopping that to go be an assistant coach on a basketball team.

• 31:20Michelle Obama?

  Is basically saying, I'm gonna go from being a millionaire to working for nothing, which seemed to be our, our overall MO, both you and me. But yeah, yeah, that was a big, that, that was a big leap.

• 31:34Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 31:35Michelle Obama?

  To walk away from a very secure lucrative career and pursue something that you love.

• 31:41Craig Robinson?

  And you talked about how my love for teaching, like, I always thought I was gonna be a teacher. I never thought I would be a coach or an investment banker or even a basketball player. I thought I'd be a teacher or a cop or a fireman, you know, that was what we were exposed to. And you talked about how much you knew I loved teaching, I loved helping kids. And then you threw out what dad would say.

• 32:07Michelle Obama?

  Cause dad had passed by then.

• 32:08Craig Robinson?

  He had passed by then and he said, you said, he would say, if you could find something that you'd love to do, you're not working a day in your life. And that gave me the. Courage to go into my partners that in that I worked with and tell them, hey, I'm hanging it up and I'm going to.

• 32:29Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 32:30Craig Robinson?

  I'm going to be a coach and everybody thought I was having a nervous breakdown. Because this was after the divorce stuff.

• 32:37Michelle Obama?

  So it's like he's having a crisis.

• 32:40Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:41Michelle Obama?

  But even in that, I don't think you realize that you gave me the courage to do the same thing eventually because watching you make some major changes in your life and, you know, walk away from what people said you were supposed to do rather than looking internally and and really figuring out who you were. I was going through this, the same thing because I was working at a corporate law firm, you know, making great money, you know, you imagine our parents, mom, working class people, I mean, we were earning more than both of our parents' salaries combined, starting

• 33:23Michelle Obama?

  out in our first, second years, you know, really making the most of this amazing education that our parents helped us acquire, doing what we were supposed to do, going to the best schools and getting the corporate jobs and owning the cars. I had a Saab, you had that red Porsche. I mean, we were, we were the black, successful people and so were all the people that we were surrounded by. But no one told us that some of those pursuits could be soul sucking, you know, because first of all, our parents didn't know. It's like, you're a lawyer, a corporate lawyer? That's great, you know, you're in finance and, you know, that's what all the fat cats

• 34:04Michelle Obama?

  want to do. But it was interesting how both of us entered those careers, were successful, but something was missing. And when I saw you make that leap with kids and alimony and all the responsibility.

• 34:22Michelle Obama?

  It made me stop and think about who I wanted to be. And whether I was pursuing what I thought I was supposed to pursue, or whether I was being true to what I cared about. And Barack came into the picture and he was, as I call a swerver, never really even thought about, you know, the need to pursue some high-powered career, even though he was Harvard-educated, blah, blah, blah. It was all about what were we giving back? What were we doing? And it, so you helped me make that leap. And it's a scary leap to walk away with debt, because we still had student loan debt.

• 35:01Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 35:02Michelle Obama?

  And walk away from guaranteed money and basically start over in brand-new careers. But that's the beauty of having a big brother who's paving the way.

• 35:14Craig Robinson?

  Yeah. And, you know, in more recent times, I mean, it feels like I can call and talk to you about anything. I mean, you know, we talk about the kids. Now, see, I have the younger kids now.

• 35:31Michelle Obama?

  Well, now you're on marriage number two.

• 35:33Craig Robinson?

  I'm on marriage number two, and I'm a charter member of the ODC, the Old Dads Club.

• 35:39Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. Although you look good.

• 35:41Craig Robinson?

  I do, I do, I do.

• 35:44Craig Robinson?

  But, you know, just being able to call you up and have an opportunity to gain from your wisdom, it's just really.

• 35:58Michelle Obama?

  Now that I got a little, huh?

• 35:59Craig Robinson?

  It's nice. It's nice.

• 36:02Michelle Obama?

  Well, I couldn't have gotten through eight years in the White House without my big brother. That's another sort of unusual aspect to our lives, our relationship, was this whole, you know, being married to the President of the United States thing.

• 36:17Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 36:18Michelle Obama?

  That none of us kind of banked on. I mean, we knew Barack was smart and, you know, ambitious, but, you know, I think, but you talked me into supporting his run.

• 36:29Craig Robinson?

  I did.

• 36:30Michelle Obama?

  And he was smart enough to know that he needed to come to you and sell you on the idea. So tell folks, what did he say and what you said to me?

• 36:40Craig Robinson?

  So.

• 36:40Michelle Obama?

  Because I was definitely like, nope, no way. This is crazy. We've done enough crazy stuff.

• 36:45Craig Robinson?

  That's right. That's right. And, you know.

• 36:50Craig Robinson?

  Everything happened so fast because Barack went from a state senator to a US senator. And next thing you know, people were saying, this guy should run for president. And you were like, uh-uh, no, not doing it. You had grown up with Fraser Robinson. You wanted your girls to have sort of a similar upbringing with a father who would come home from work and play catch and take them to the park and do all these things. And Barack came to me and he's like, you know, I can't convince your sister to go along with this. And I'm like, whoa, well, go along with what? It's like, I think I'm gonna run for president. And I was like, what?

• 37:35Craig Robinson?

  I wouldn't go along with it. And I said to him, I said, listen, what you have to do is, first of all, let me talk to her.

• 37:50Craig Robinson?

  You don't talk to her, let me talk to her. No, it wasn't that. I said, you know, I said, if we can get mom on this, our mom, Marion Robinson, if we can get her on board for this, which she was not on board for it, we might have a chance of getting Meech on. And then I said, let me talk to Meech. And that's when I came and talked to you and just gave you your advice that you had given me back pretty much about following your passion and doing the things you love. But I think the thing that pushed it over the top was I convinced you to not penalize

• 38:35Craig Robinson?

  him for being really good at what he does. And that would be like a guy who is fighting to get to the NBA and he makes it. And because the travel is messed up, his wife says, no, I don't want you to do it. And it just wouldn't be fair. And I talked to you and mom at the same time, and both of you sat there reasonably mad.

• 39:02Craig Robinson?

  And said I was right. And then I said to everybody in our family that this is like not a, this is not just you all doing it. This means all of us are doing it. Because of the scrutiny you guys would be under, the work you're gonna have to do, it just, it's gonna take a village to do this whole thing. And that was pretty much the discussion that we had that got this whole thing started.

• 39:28Michelle Obama?

  And that meant that you put your money where your mouth was. I mean, over the course of the campaign, the many campaigns, our time in the White House, I could count on you to be there when I needed you. You know, I mean, you campaigned with us, you campaigned for us, you know, if anything got tight, if I was feeling a certain way, my team, especially Mel, my chief of staff, who's been with me forever, she knew who to call. She would, you know, she, and she, Melissa loves you more than I do. It's like, a lot of times Melissa would be like, I need Craig. And she'd call you.

• 40:05Craig Robinson?

  And I'd come a-running.

• 40:07Michelle Obama?

  And it, it was always a breath of fresh air. I mean, there's just something about having your, your foundation in check, you know, like being able to touch base with home in the middle of something hard and scary and uncertain. And you did that, and did that for the girls. Because they needed their uncle and their cousins and, and I wanted them, our, our, Adrian Leslie, sadly Austin and Aaron was so young, the poor things, they, they were there, but they don't remember any of it. They're like, why didn't we go to that White House? It's like, you were there. Dude, you were, you were there, you were just four.

• 40:49Craig Robinson?

  You know what, they, they remember the turkey pardoning. That was the last thing.

• 40:53Michelle Obama?

  They got, every year, we'd have the turkey pardoning. And that was the one thing that the girls would do at Barack, was go stand next to him when he pardoned this turkey. And it was cute when they were little, but as they got older, you could see on their faces in the shots of just them thinking, I would, just, just poke my eyes out, just right now, just get me out of here, I'm standing with my father. Telling these stupid jokes, you know, next to a turkey. So by the time we got to the last year, the last turkey pardoning, they were done.

• 41:28Craig Robinson?

  They didn't want any parts of it.

• 41:30Michelle Obama?

  They were just like, I'm out. I'm not going. So in subs, Austin and Aaron, who were, how old were they at the time?

• 41:36Craig Robinson?

  Oh, shoot. Six and four, maybe?

• 41:39Michelle Obama?

  Perfect turkey pardoning age. Like, they were like, call me up. I'm in, coach. I'm ready. I'm ready to stand next to Uncle Barack. And they loved his stupid jokes. They loved the, you know? He felt like a new man. He's like, I got a new crew in. They were amazed. They were fascinated. While their daughters were like, you are, you are sad, dad. You know, Austin and Aaron came in. So they, they remember that because that was like the, the last chance when they started having memories.

• 42:10Craig Robinson?

  Of course, nothing was better than having Thanksgiving dinner at the White House. So.

• 42:14Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 42:15Craig Robinson?

  Yeah. So we, we just absolutely loved being a part of that whole thing.

• 42:30Craig Robinson?

  This episode of IMO is brought to you by Cologuard, a non-invasive colon cancer screening test. The Cologuard test is a one-of-a-kind way to feel more in control of your colon cancer screening through a prescription-based test with none of the prep that's required of a colonoscopy. When I was a coach, my players had a team of people helping them with their physical well-being. They had so many tools to make sure every member of the team was on top of their health and wellness. But what I want our listeners to know is that even if you eat well and have a healthy lifestyle, that does not mean you are low risk for colon cancer. The Cologuard test is the only FDA-approved, non-invasive option

• 43:14Craig Robinson?

  that looks for both altered DNA and blood in your stool, which can indicate the presence of abnormal cells. The good news is that when caught at the early stages, colon cancer is survivable in 90% of people. So screening and early detection are crucial. With zero downtime, no special preparation, and a screening test that's delivered right to your door, we shouldn't let our health take a backseat. So if you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with the Cologuard test. You can also request a Cologuard prescription today at Cologuard.com/podcast.

• 43:58Craig Robinson?

  The Cologuard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Do not use a Cologuard test if you have adenomas, have inflammatory bowel disease, and certain hereditary syndromes, or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer. The Cologuard test is not a replacement for colonoscopy in high-risk patients. Cologuard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and false negatives can occur. Cologuard is available by prescription only.

• 44:39Craig Robinson?

  This episode of IMO is sponsored by Chase Home Lending, committed to supporting you all the way home with smart digital home buying tools and resources. Chase Home Lending is dedicated to helping individuals and families achieve their dream of homeownership. They offer expert guidance throughout the home buying journey, helping customers navigate the process with confidence. This brings me back to a time when we grew up, living upstairs from my aunt in a two-family home that she owned and we rented. And it was a wonderful time, but being a renter, we had to be extremely careful of what we did. For example, we had to be quiet at a

• 45:21Craig Robinson?

  certain time. We couldn't play on the front lawn. My sister couldn't have a dog. And we didn't realize the importance of being a homeowner until we got late in life. We always would talk to our dad about why we don't own a home, and he talked about being house poor. Little did we know that homeownership was a great way to build

• 45:47Craig Robinson?

  Equity. My sister and I ended up buying our own homes later in life, and we used that to help pay for our kids' college. And that is a way where homeownership can lead to future success. Chase Home Lending offers personalized support, expert knowledge, and access to valuable resources, helping homebuyers navigate the complexities of getting a mortgage. Their guidance ensures buyers find a financial fit and make informed decisions. Visit chase.com/start to see how Chase can support your homeownership journey. Member FDIC. Equal housing opportunity. I love this time of year,

• 46:30Craig Robinson?

  but hosting during the holidays can be a bit of a challenge. So Kelly and I have collected a few hacks to make it a little bit easier. One of our favorite moves is an extendable dining room table. It's this great walnut color and it's mid-century modern, so it looks awesome in our space. And it even has extra storage in the legs. When we don't need the middle panels, we just slide them out and our space is back to how it was before. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home so you can host and celebrate without the stress. Use filters, customer photos, and more than 20 million verified five-star reviews

• 47:14Craig Robinson?

  to confidently find the right fit for your home. When refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  Wayfair, every style, every home.

• 47:33Craig Robinson?

  This episode is brought to you by Cologuard. I knew that I shouldn't delay screening for colon cancer, and Cologuard has made that process 1 million times easier for all of us. I just answered a few questions about my age and medical history, and once their licensed clinician determined I was eligible, they issued the prescription and the Cologuard Plus kit was sent right to my home. No doctor's office visit. Necessary. For me, there was just immediate relief in getting it done. It cost me $0 with my insurance. It took me truly 15 minutes and now I can rest easier knowing I screened properly. Plus, if you get a negative result, you generally don't need a repeat Cologuard test for three years.

• 48:17Craig Robinson?

  If you're 45 or older and at average risk, it's time to screen for colon cancer, even if you feel perfectly healthy. And Cologuard Plus gives you an option you can use right at home. Talk to your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with Cologuard or request it online today at Cologuard.com where they have an easy telehealth option. Don't wait. Cologuard products are intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Do not use if you have had a personal history of colorectal cancer or polyps, have inflammatory bowel disease, a family history of colorectal cancer, or certain hereditary syndromes, or a positive result from another colon cancer screening method within that test-recommended screening interval. Cologuard results should be interpreted with caution as false positives and false negatives do occur. Available by prescription only.

• 49:07Craig Robinson?

  You know, it just, we started talking about this at the outset, why we're doing this show.

• 49:12Michelle Obama?

  You know, um, post-White House and writing the books and doing book tours, you know, we just, I, you know, speaking at leadership conferences, things you do. As a coach, you realize that what we have, even in our lack of resources, you know, in our household growing up, we, we had people who would share their opinions, give us advice. We had mentors and we were used to mentoring and being mentored. And I realize that a lot of people don't have that. You know, they don't, they don't have a safe place to come sometimes. Right.

• 49:56Michelle Obama?

  Where they feel comfortable being vulnerable and asking hard questions. Or they don't have people in their lives they trust. They, they are lone wolves. Or maybe they have contentious relationships where they're estranged from the people they, they could rely on. So a lot of people out there are looking for, for guidance. A lot of people have questions. They want to know, especially when they see somebody of note with a platform who, you know, by every measure looks successful. The first question is, how? How'd you do this? Tell me more. So I can only access so many people through books or at tours or at, you know,

• 50:41Michelle Obama?

  limited leadership conferences. So I think this podcast first and foremost gives us an opportunity to hear from folks. You know, we're going to be taking, you know, questions from, from, from listeners who are going through some things and just need a little advice. They want to hear from people in conversations. And folks are looking for a place where they can just, they, they can hear stories. You know? I mean, what I realize is like by sharing some of these stories, you know, it, it always taps into something from somebody else. People, you know, they want to hear some honest kind of conversation about how people are working it through.

• 51:26Michelle Obama?

  And we don't have all the answers, you know? I mean, this show isn't about us being experts at anything other than the lives that we've lived. But what we do have are a lot of opinions.

• 51:40Craig Robinson?

  Hence the name.

• 51:42Michelle Obama?

  In my opinion, I M O.

• 51:46Michelle Obama?

  And what better person to do this with than my big brother, who, you know, I know how you think. I know why you think it.

• 51:55Michelle Obama?

  You were funny as all get out. I trust you implicitly. But I am also excited that we're gonna involve other people around our table, that we've got friends and, you know, other leaders out there and people we've met over the scope of our lifetimes who, you know, have their own podcasts or living their own lives, who are gonna come in and engage because we have our opinions, but so do a lot of other people. And I hope the show, you know, encourages people to have conversations about what they're afraid about. Don't do what, you know, the one time you didn't lean on me, you know?

• 52:32Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 52:33Michelle Obama?

  You know, at a time when you needed it because you were afraid of what I would think or what, you know? We want to encourage the listeners. That's what we need in this time. We need kitchen tables where we can just sit down and share opinions, share experiences. That's where the wisdom comes from, you know? So I'm excited to be engaged in some of those conversations with you. How are you thinking about this?

• 53:01Craig Robinson?

  I couldn't agree with you more. I have, over these years, and we talked about this a little earlier, about being our parents, being, before there was the term lifetime learners, right? That's what they were. And it's been so helpful for me in my adult life and in our adult lives. I just want to be able to share what we can with folks who weren't as fortunate to have Frasier and Mary Robinson as parents. And then I have just.

• 53:37Craig Robinson?

  Watched you grow into this person who has a platform where people, you touch people, people listen to you and it's just an honor to be sitting here next to you and being able to share that with the rest of the world.

• 53:56Michelle Obama?

  And hopefully it'll be fun.

• 53:57Craig Robinson?

  It'll be fun.

• 53:58Michelle Obama?

  You know.

• 53:59Craig Robinson?

  Because we may not have all the answers, but we got plenty of opinions.

• 54:03Michelle Obama?

  We sure do. We sure do. Well, it's gonna be a joy to have an excuse to hang with my big brother.

• 54:11Craig Robinson?

  So we're gonna want, we want you to hang with us tough, so.

• 54:16Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 54:17Craig Robinson?

  And feel free to engage with us. Subscribe. Follow us on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify.

• 54:25Michelle Obama?

  Audible.

• 54:26Craig Robinson?

  Audible and wherever you get your podcasts, look us up and send us some questions. We'd love to get questions from you folks and try and answer them and, you know, I plan on learning something too in this, so.

• 54:45Michelle Obama?

  For sure. Lifelong learners. Like, we hope to learn from our guests. We hope to learn from our listeners. And I can't wait until we start getting feedback from people to hear what, you know, what's missing? What more can we talk about? What areas can we touch on? But again, we are not the experts. This is just our opinion and everybody's got one and it's important. You know, it's important to have an opinion in life and put it out there. So I'm excited.

• 55:18Craig Robinson?

  So am I. It'll be a lot of fun.

• 55:20Michelle Obama?

  Thank you for coming on this journey with me, Quay.

• 55:23Craig Robinson?

  Thanks for having me.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  Hi, I'm Molly Graham, host of Work Life, a podcast from TED. The most important lessons about work usually aren't the ones anyone teaches you. They come from experience, from uncertainty, from figuring things out as you go. On this show, my expert guests and I explore how careers really unfold, through change, through doubt, through the decisions that shape who we become over time. Because those moments aren't the exception, they are the work. Listen to Work Life wherever you get your podcasts.