James & Claudia Altucher Choose Themselves: Musings On Relationships, The Power of Vulnerability & Creating Success Doing What You Love

I'm so intimidated. This week Julie and I are joined by the dynamic duo of the Choose Yourself era themselves, James and Claudia Altucher — a prolific couple changing the world with insights that are empowering millions to live more dynamic, authentic lives. When someone fires off a long list of occupations in conversation, my instinct tells me that person probably isn't great at any of them. James is not that guy. Abundant in talent. A true polymath with just the right amount of self-deprecation and pitch perfect comedic timing. Blogger, bestselling author, podcaster, public speaker, investor, entrepreneur, columnist, and humorist, he seemingly does it all. Oh yeah, he's also a nationally ranked chess master. James had made millions, lost millions and made millions again. Maybe he'll lose it again. I don't know. He’s started and run something like 20 companies. Then there's a slew of venture capital, hedge, angel and sundry other funds he ran. Maybe he still runs them. I don't know that either. In fact, I don't understand any of it. James' Altucher Confidential is one of the most widely read blogs on the internet, amassing over 15 million readers since its 2010 inception. The James Altucher Show debuted as the #1 podcast on all of iTunes last year. I think he's written 13 books. It could be 16. I can't keep track. He writes faster than I can read. My favorite is the Wall Street Journal Best Seller Choose Yourself. A primer for anyone seeking firmer control of destiny, it's a prescient and highly entertaining look at how new and unprecedented tools, technology and economic forces have suddenly emerged to make it possible for individuals to create art, careers, success, fulfillment and change the world without permission from the gatekeepers of yore. When you finish that book, then read The Power of No — also a Wall Street Journal Best Seller. Two things you need to know about this book: (1) it's really great; and (2) learning how and when to say no is, like, really important. Wait, there's a third thing: it was co-authored by James' wife Claudia. In many ways James' perfect match, the Argentinian-born Claudia is also a widely acclaimed multi-hyphenate. Writer, podcaster and yoga aficionado, she has written or co-written three books, including the recently released Become An Idea Machine. You can find her Yoga Podcast on iTunes and read her musings at ClaudiaYoga.com. But I don't know how much longer she can keep this up because any day now she's going to be named the new CEO of Twitter. Am I joking? Read this and you tell me. I had James on my podcast a while ago. Then I did his podcast. Then Julie did Claudia's podcast. They fell in love. I was already in love with James. The only thing? None of us had ever met in person. Until now. Wonder twin powers activate! I'm not sure whose podcast we did. We just hit record and started freestyling. I thought we were interviewing James and Claudia but now I think I have it all backwards. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:06Speaker 01

  You know, I think men, and to some extent, everybody, but everybody needs to be like this perfect success. And I think being comfortable with where you are right now on the path, on the journey to wherever you're going to be, which could mean saying, "I don't know," is part of that path. So you have to not know to start the path.

• 1:28Rich Roll?

  That's James Altucher, along with his lovely wife Claudia and my lovely wife Julie, this week, on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:50Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. How you doing? What's going on? What's the news? It's the show. It's the podcast, coming through your earbuds. I'm Rich Roll. I am your host. Thank you for tuning in. For each week, I do my best, I really do, to engage the most compelling, intriguing, paradigm-breaking minds and personalities across all categories of positive culture change. And the idea behind this, really, is just to help all of us Myself included, unlock and unleash our collective best, most authentic selves on the world so that we can simply live and be better and impact other people to live and be better. So, thanks for subscribing to the show on iTunes. Thank you for subscribing to my weekly newsletter. If you haven't done that, get on that. If you want to support

• 2:34Rich Roll?

  the show, it would be huge if you could just take a quick moment and give us a review on iTunes. It really does help us out very, very much and I greatly appreciate that. You can also support the show by donating. We've got a donate button. Thank you to everybody who has gone DEFCON 5 and done that. We really appreciate it. And you can also support by just clicking on the Amazon banner at atritrol.com for all your Amazon purchases. It does not cost you a single cent extra on any of those purchases. So, it's a really great free way to support the mission and you can make it easy on yourself by just bookmarking the link from the banner out on my site to your browser. That way you don't have to keep coming to my website and you know what? Everybody wins that way.

• 3:22Rich Roll?

  So, for this episode of the podcast, Julie and I sit down with James Altucher and his wife Claudia. And I have to say, I'm a huge fan of this couple. They're just so dynamic. They do so many things that it's really hard to know exactly where to begin describing them, but I'm going to give it a shot. So, let's start with James. James is a blogger, an author, a podcaster, a public speaker, an investor, an entrepreneur, a columnist. The guy's even a chess master. I just can't get enough of this multi-talented hyphenate. He is endlessly fascinating to me. And so, if I had to boil him down to just one phrase,

• 4:02Rich Roll?

  it would probably be something like profoundly and hilariously prolific in the most insightful and intelligent way. His blog, Altucher Confidential, at jamesaltucher.com, jamesaltucher.com. The guy gets something like 15 million readers since 2010. It's really witty, incredibly funny, and intelligent and helpful. I highly recommend you check that out. In addition to that, James has started and run something like 20 companies, many of which he sold for big exits. He's also run venture capital funds, hedge funds, angel funds, and currently sits on the boards of several companies. He hosts the extremely popular weekly podcast, The James Altucher Show, where I've been privileged to be a guest. And as for books,

• 4:45Rich Roll?

  the guy has written like, I don't know, 13, 15, 16 maybe, books, many of which have been huge bestsellers. I'd start with Choose Yourself. I love that book. And that book is essentially a look at how culture, tech, and the economy have recently converged to create these incredible opportunities for individuals to do everything from create art and careers, and both inward and outward success, without all the permission-giving middlemen. Basically, I think it's a must-read primer for anybody who's interested in taking firmer control of the reins of life. All right, Claudia. Claudia is quite accomplished in her own right. Not only is she James's

• 5:27Rich Roll?

  wife, she is most often his co-collaborator. She's a writer, she's a yoga teacher, she blogs at claudiayoga.com, where she hosts her own podcast, The Yoga Podcast, and she also co-hosts James' Ask Altucher podcast. She's the author of a book called 21 Things to Know Before Starting a Yoga Practice, and she co-authored two books with James, including The Power of No, which was a Wall Street Journal bestseller, as well as Become an Idea Machine. So, I had James on the podcast about a year and a half ago. That was episode 75, if you want to check that out. But that exchange was on Skype. I was in New York City, we had plans to get together, but a huge snowstorm descended upon Manhattan,

• 6:09Rich Roll?

  and that prevented him from being able to connect with me in person. So, I never actually met James until this exchange. Nonetheless, when our book, The Plant Power Way, came out, I sent those guys a copy. And I was really touched to hear back a couple of weeks later that James and Claudia had been really enjoying the recipes. They were super into it. And that led to me being on his podcast and this kind of really cool relationship that started to develop between Julie and Claudia. I mean, they're like peas in a pod. They're both super into yoga and meditation and all things spiritual. So when Julie and I were in New York City earlier this summer, we made a point to connect, to have dinner and do this big joint podcast,

• 6:50Rich Roll?

  which I would characterize more as like a cross-cast, because none of us were really quite sure whose podcast we were doing. We just hit record and started talking, and this is what came out of it. So it's a really fun, pretty free-form conversation that traverses all sorts of subjects, everything from meditation to nutrition to marriage and relationships, what it's like to work with and collaborate with your partner, entrepreneurship, time management, of course, podcasting, and so much more. So I really love these guys. They really are quite special people. And so I really hope that you enjoy this exchange. So without further ado, let's just get into it. Let's do it. Let's do the show. Here's the interview. Enjoy.

• 7:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was my first question. Whose podcast are we doing? Are we doing yours? Or are we doing... Are we going to share this? We can share the audio file and both use it, I suppose.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  I guess so.

• 7:49Speaker 03

  What would be the biggest, best use? Here, name to take the...

• 7:52Rich Roll?

  I don't know.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  Yes, of course.

• 7:53Rich Roll?

  We could talk about it.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 7:54Rich Roll?

  We'll see how it goes.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  One, two, three. One, two, three. Looking fabulous. This is great.

• 7:59Rich Roll?

  It's Instagramming and selfie. We already started, by the way.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. We have to. That's how it works.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  I want to Instagram.

• 8:07Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  He's gonna go get his phone. So I just want to start then. I'll just tell Julie how amazed I am. I've been trying your meditation ever since you came on the yoga podcast, and it has been like a trip for me. It's been amazing what has happened, like including inhibitions that have been lifting off of me. And I'm really grateful for that.

• 8:29Speaker 03

  This is incredible. So like, tell us, what are some of the inhibitions that have lifted? And what are you doing now? What's happening? What does your morning look like?

• 8:41Speaker 01

  It's crazy, like I have to like leave the house early even.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  It seems I have lost all shame and I'm ready to start wrapping.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  That's so great. See, I knew.

• 8:51Rich Roll?

  Things get interesting.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  See, the artist exists inside each one of us. No, I'm psyched to hear that.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  That's true. That's very true. Like, there is a creative person inside all of us and all it takes is that little encouragement or that little, you know, him looking at me and saying, "Of course you can." And I'm like, "Wow, yes, I can."

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, literally, she wrote this morning, "Ten Reasons Why She Should Be CEO of Twitter."

• 9:13Rich Roll?

  I know, I was gonna get into that. I was gonna say, like, "How is the campaign going? And how is the meditation playing into this campaign?" You laid out a very compelling argument, I would say.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  And it's just because I told her, "Yeah, you would be qualified to be CEO of Twitter," so then she just wrote this post.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Like, I looked, I looked at him.

• 9:29Rich Roll?

  There were some really good ideas.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Right? Thank you. I looked at him and I'm like, "Are you saying I could be qualified to be CEO of Twitter?" And he looked at me in the face and said, "Yes." And this, you know, my father told me I could, I should learn how to type. So I always thought there was a ceiling. But when he said that, I was like, "Well, maybe I can." And my 10 ideas were solid. I hope Twitter flies me to San Francisco.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:55Rich Roll?

  Well, wasn't, isn't, I mean, Dick Costolo is a stand-up comedian, right?

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:59Rich Roll?

  For like a while, like, not as a hobby. Like, that was like his thing.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Well, he tells a joke. He was at a reunion of Second City, which is kind of the renowned improv place in Chicago where all the stand-up comedians learn their, their trade. And so he was at a reunion and Steve Carroll comes up to him and they're talking and, you know, Dick is already the CEO of Twitter and Steve says, you know, "Too bad it didn't really work out for you."

• 10:29Speaker 01

  But...

• 10:29Rich Roll?

  Maybe now he'll go back to Second City.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  He's gonna end up like on the cast of Saturday Night Live after being CEO of Twitter.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  He's gonna lie there on his feet.

• 10:36Speaker 03

  But I think, you know, getting back to the meditation as the, you know, support and the portal to you discovering this superpower that you have inside of yourself. I think we all have superpowers and really, I, I often feel it's like there's this, this thing called divine... Divine mind and it's sort of like this field of every potential, you know, every outcome, every possible event. And tapping into meditation is being able to merge with that force. And so it's almost like you can fall into the gap of meditation and stillness and somehow you become one with this stream of divine intelligence. And you really can do anything and be anything and experience anything.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  And I think it's even way beyond what we know here in the 3D physical realm. I think it keeps getting more and more fun.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  Is what I'm trying to tell you.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 11:27Speaker 03

  So go for the wrapping and then after that, it could be, it could be wild.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Well, we definitely always do whatever is kind of in front of us that seems like it will help us, I don't know, either learn more or help others or, you know, whatever. So for instance, you guys coming into town, and by the way, we haven't introduced any of us, but you know.

• 11:53Rich Roll?

  We do that later.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  It doesn't matter.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Rich Roll and Julie Roll, Claudia.

• 11:57Speaker 03

  It's Julie Piatt.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  It's Julie Piatt. And I am Claudia Azula.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Claudia Azula, James Altucher, we're all hanging out, doing a podcast together.

• 12:05Rich Roll?

  Literally at your dining room table.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Rich just displayed an amazing capability show of putting together podcast equipment on the go.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  This is literally like podcasters in, on a dining room table drinking teas.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Like Seinfeld.

• 12:23Rich Roll?

  There's no agenda. We had, well, we actually had a whole unrecorded podcast that transpired before we turned the

• 12:29Speaker 02

  On the elevator.

• 12:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  The elevator podcast.

• 12:32Rich Roll?

  But anyway, no, it's a pleasure to be with you guys. It's, it's been fun watching your journey together and separately and watching you guys grow. And James, I said this to you, you know, last time we spoke on Skype, but you know, I've been a big fan of your writing for quite some time. And so it's really fun to meet you guys in person and.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and vice versa. I mean, we, I was on your podcast, I think about a year or so ago, and now you've been on mine. You guys have been on podcasts together.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  We do, yeah.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  And so now this is the first time we're meeting.

• 13:02Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, I don't know if you remember, I came here on the cusp of snowpocalypse and we had arranged you were going to come into the city to do the podcast in person. And then we got hit with a huge blizzard and that didn't happen. So we ended up doing it by Skype, but.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, we get those in New York and they're horrible. You guys are so lucky to live in California.

• 13:19Rich Roll?

  Well, now, we have a little water problem, but... That's true.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  What's the problem with the water?

• 13:24Speaker 03

  Lack of water.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Lack thereof. Doesn't California always have that though?

• 13:27Speaker 03

  It has something to do with the reason that we're plant-based advocates.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  But California is in a desert, so it's always gonna have...

• 13:34Rich Roll?

  It always does, but, yeah, it's particularly kind of acute at the moment. So it'll be interesting to see how it pans out. Like, even all the snowpack is melted. Like, it's rather dire.

• 13:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  So now, how did you guys meet? Because it seems like, and we discussed this a little bit, Rich, but it seems like when you first met, you were probably 100% different. And now you're only like 50% different.

• 13:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. He's definitely still 100% different.

• 14:02Rich Roll?

  Are you gonna answer that, or why are you on your phone? You go ahead. Okay. I'm busy. Yeah, I think I mentioned, I think I said to you, yeah, she's like on her phone. What are you doing? Put that away. Turn it off.

• 14:13Rich Roll?

  I don't know that we were, yeah, I mean, we're very different in certain respects, but we met in a yoga class. So at least I was sort of inclined to, you know, sort of look into maybe a better path than I was living. And that doesn't mean that I was adequately practicing that in every aspect of my life. But, yeah, I had, I mean, I'd gotten out of rehab and I was sort of trying to develop, you know, a more kind of spiritually-based way of living, and I was dipping my toe into yoga. So what do I do? I go to the yoga studio that has like the most attractive women in all of town.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Very important strategy for all men.

• 14:51Rich Roll?

  And there's only like three guys in the class, right, so...

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Men don't know this.

• 14:55Rich Roll?

  No, they don't. It's the best place if you want to meet women.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Like, men go to a bar where there's no women, right, and no women you want to meet. And yet, in a yoga class, or if you go to like a tango class, or something like that, or a cooking class, you're going to meet, it's gonna be like a 90 to 1 ratio of women to men.

• 15:13Speaker 03

  It's kind of interesting, but you know, the other thing that's kind of interesting about that is that when you're a very devoted yoga practitioner, and you're in your room, and you've found your tribe, you're extremely protective about that. And so, in my experience, Rich and I were only one of two couples... That set up in this entire community over a very long period of time. There were, and that's not to say there weren't sexual relations going on, you know, randomly. There was a lot of that.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  There always is.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  But, but, but I would say that, you know, if it started to get serious, it was like, whoa, like, I don't want to invite her into my room or him into my room because this is my yoga. Like, you know, if it goes bad, then it's not so good.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  But were you the teacher, Julie?

• 15:55Rich Roll?

  No, she wasn't the teacher. She was in the class and, and I'd gotten out of rehab and I made this commitment to be celibate for my first year of sobriety. And, and I actually practiced that and it was a very empowering, illuminating experience that actually, it was amazing, you know, to put it bluntly.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  You were like a monk.

• 16:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was a very kind of powerful, you know, period of self-reflection. But anyway, I started going to this yoga class and like Julie said, it's sort of like, well, I don't want to, like, I really enjoyed going to it. And I figured if I, if I like dated someone once that year was up and it didn't go well, then there'd be that weird awkwardness of like going back to that class. And so I, you know, I had my eye on Julie, but like it was, you know, we'd met, we kind of knew each other for quite a while before that actually transpired. But it was a pretty interesting time and a very interesting yoga class. Like Russell Simmons would come to this class. Like there were some pretty interesting people who dropped in. And the other couple that ended up getting married, that basically connected the same weekend that we originally hooked up where that was Bobby Shriver and his now wife, Melissa.

• 16:58Rich Roll?

  So it was like some pretty amazing people.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Bobby Shriver, like related to every other Shriver?

• 17:03Rich Roll?

  Exactly.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  I have, I have two questions for you on this. First of all, the only other person I ever heard of that went a year celibate became a very angry, angry man. And I, I, I wonder if you had, if you, you had a lot of anger issues during that year? Because that sounds, it's, it's like a lot of men think that that could be a good thing, but I saw it going in the wrong direction and it wasn't pretty.

• 17:30Rich Roll?

  Well, I think that's revelatory in its own right. Like I, I didn't find it to be, I didn't experience anger in that. Like what I learned was that a lot of my addiction issues were tied up in how I related to women. And I had to kind of unravel that knot and learn something about how I. Communicate and how I feel about myself and how I interact with the opposite sex. And that gets tied up with self-esteem and all that sort of stuff. So I really needed to focus on that and work through a lot of those issues so that I could get to a place where I could have a healthy sober relationship with somebody who, you know, is with a woman, you know? And without going through that process for myself, I don't know that I would have gotten to the place to be a person that someone like Julie would have been interested in. So for me, it was like, you know, it was a huge part of my personal growth.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  And I said, the second question, I said I had to. My second question was, who spoke to who first?

• 18:21Rich Roll?

  I don't know. Here, you talk.

• 18:24Speaker 03

  Well, let's see. I, a friend of mine told me that Rich, you know, was interested in me. And at the time, I, I thought that he might be.

• 18:36Rich Roll?

  That sounds very high schoolish, by the way.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  It was very.

• 18:39Rich Roll?

  We were talking to her friend, like, don't tell her.

• 18:42Speaker 03

  Yoga, don't tell her. Right. It actually was, this was very high schoolish in the, in the yoga room during those days. But I thought Rich might, was probably gay because he hung out with a certain guy in the class who was, who seemed very gay. And also, Rich was also very, he was lifting weights more at the time, so he was kind of a little bit more, he can bulk up like really quickly. And so, I, I don't know. So I just, I thought he wasn't really in my, he wasn't in my field. I didn't think that that was happening. But there, later I found out, there was a joke, Rich told a couple friends that he, when he saw me, well, you should tell the story.

• 19:22Rich Roll?

  Well, Julie was like this wild animal. Like, she, you know, like she was this exotic wild animal. And at the time. Did you have like a lot of hair on your armpits? No, like she had like, orange and blue, like streaks in her hair. And like, I'd never experienced like a, like a creature of this sort before. So I was fascinated and intrigued and I was like, that one. Like, I just knew, you know, you hear about like, you know, it's so cliched, oh, love at first sight or something like that. But like, I knew when I saw her, I was like, just like completely fixated on her. And there was something inside of me that I said to my friend, I was like, that is my next girlfriend. Like, I just knew it, you know? And it's interesting because like, I had gotten out of a marriage disaster and I was like right out of rehab. Like, I was not a vision for you. You know what I mean?

• 20:07Rich Roll?

  Like, I had a lot of problems and a lot of stuff to like work through and rebuild in my life. And I always thought, well, my next girlfriend is gonna be. Like twenty-four, like no, you know, like no baggage, like really just simple. And, and here, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm like walking this path towards this woman where, you know, she's in the process of getting divorced. She has two sons and she's, you know, a couple of years older than me. And there's a lot of, you know, sort of complicated things that are revolving around in her life. And it's sort of, you know, it's that adage that, you know, you don't, you don't choose the person that you love. It's like it just, it occurs. And so, you know, but it was kind of interesting and precarious. Like it wasn't like what I thought was going to happen.

• 20:48Speaker 03

  It was exactly the opposite. And I was getting out of a ten-year marriage. And so, you know, I had plans to just date and be really wild and just do whatever I wanted to do and be free. And he was looking for, like he said, a much younger girl. But the one common thing is neither one of us were looking for like marriage. And it actually was divinely worked out because I was extremely protective of my sons. And so I would not let him meet them for about nine months. Wow. So on the weeks that I had them, I just didn't see him because I was not going to just bring, you know, a bunch of people, you know, into the boy's life and out and all that. And that was also fine by him. And I think it gave him the space and the safety for it not to be like, oh, there's two, two little kids, you know, and, you know, they weren't his.

• 21:33Rich Roll?

  How old were they?

• 21:34Speaker 03

  They were three and four. Wow. Three and four. And so, yeah, it was this process. And I, I have to say, I'm extremely surprised. I am, when I first really talked to Rich, it was at this retreat, actually it was on a yoga retreat, then we had gone on retreat. And so I sat down and talked to him kind of at the retreat. And in the first conversation I had with him, I was like, oh, like shit, this guy's like, he's a marrying guy. Like he's not like a dating guy. Oh.

• 22:02Rich Roll?

  How could you tell he was a marrying guy?

• 22:04Speaker 03

  It was a, it was like a, a memory or a resonance or something. Like I'm sure we know each other from past life. And I mean, there's no way that we would, that, that, you know, he saw me and picked me out of the room and was like, that's gonna be my next wife, you know? Like you recognized each other? Yeah, so it's a recognition underneath. It's like I talked to him and I was like, ugh, like, cause I just wanted to date. And it was like, this was the exact opposite of that. So, yeah. So, and it's... He turned you around? Yeah, I mean, it's been, I think it's been amazing. I mean, I think in the early days, there was a lot of, you know, kind of acclimating that we, you know, we, we were getting used to each other and sort of figuring all of that out. And I would say that, you know,

• 22:44Speaker 03

  his, his path in sobriety and what he learned from being sober has been, you know, a beautiful part of him. Because there was always a ground for, you know, conflict resolution and, you know, discussion and getting to the other side in a very intimate way. Like, so, you know, being really honest, but being willing to own your side of the street and actually go through to the other side. And so, we made it through some of these obstacles, you know, that are, I think, characteristic of a new relationship. And I have to say, I mean, what Rich and I have experienced as a couple, after then having our own two kids and also going through just the life transformation that we went through, I never imagined this

• 23:28Speaker 03

  level of intimacy was possible. So, it's, it's, it was not, it was not obvious to either one of us, but it has turned into, you know, a really amazing, really amazing union.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  But I kind of think, too, you guys are similar to us in the sense that many of the things that you do professionally, you do together. Right? So, I mean, you just have this book, Plant Power, out together.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Which we love, and we're eating from.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, now she's, every recipe is like out of your, your, out of Plant Power.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  We're eating plant-based.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  I'm not allowed in the kitchen, so every recipe she makes. But, so it's similar to us. Like, we spend like 18 hours a day together, or however many. So, just because we're always working together on things.

• 24:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it's pretty interesting. Like, there's a lot of overlap, I think, in your relationship and ours. And I'm interested in hearing how you guys make that work. I mean, you guys really are integrated in what you're doing. I mean, you, you kind of have your own little fiefdoms, but they, if you drew the Venn diagram, there's quite an overlap. And I would say it's similar in what we do. I mean, we kind of have our own separate things. But, you know, we're united in, and we're very like in sync in terms of like what our collective mission is together. And that doesn't mean that- I mean, we don't spend 18 hours a day.

• 24:43Speaker 03

  No, we definitely do not spend 18 hours a day. And we would not survive 18 hours a day. So we're very different in that way. But yeah, I would say with us, the global mission is we're, is exact. And then we have very different ways of operating within that. And we're a great team. Like, you know, I mean, I think the first time that we found out, we made a film together. We wrote a feature script and we made, we made a movie and a 20 minute movie. And, and we worked on that together. It was, it was really fun, really amazing. And Rich directed and he's a brilliant director. He was really great. So anyway, we knew then that we were a good team and then, you know, because when you're, when you're working on movie, it's.

• 25:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think, I think it functions because there's a ying and a yang, you know? Like Julie has a skill set that I don't have and vice versa. So, I mean, how does that work with you guys? And how did you dip your toe into the idea that you would be working together? And what have been kind of the pitfalls and how have you navigated that?

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you know, I, I fell in love with James pretty much instantaneously. We made on J date. I'm not Jewish, so I'm sorry.

• 25:52Speaker 03

  How did you get on J date?

• 25:53Rich Roll?

  Is that a violation of the terms of service?

• 25:55Speaker 02

  I think it's illegal.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  It kind of is now. They really don't encourage it.

• 25:59Speaker 03

  Claudia just didn't understand. She didn't read that part.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  No, no, I'll tell you exactly why I went on J date. I went on J date unmatched because I wanted a boyfriend that would pay his half of the rent. Like I was tired of paying the rent every time for every boyfriend. And so I thought maybe a Jewish boy will be, a Jewish mind will be able to.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Sort of like reverse antisemitism, you know?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Oh, Jews are gonna pay rent.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  I've also lived in New York for like 20 years now. So, you know, you end up, I told my friend. I really like, I wanted, I had a collage. I wanted a Jewish guy with glasses and there.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  No, literally, she had like, the first time I went over her house, she had like a vision board. And there was a guy with like black curly hair and glasses like taped to this vision board.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  I need yoga mat.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  And so I'm like determined at some point to like track down this guy and say, you're actually the one on the vision board, Claudia.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  This is who she sees when she looks at me.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Um, but of course, he was married and he had two children.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  No, not when, I mean, I, I had two children, but I wasn't married.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  You were in the process of divorce.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, I was separated.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  You were separated. And so, he had two children, which I didn't see for a year. Look at the similarities, too. Amazing, because, um, we wanted to make the transition easy for the children, which I totally got.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  Isn't that nice? That's so cool to hear.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  It's, it's important, because it's traumatic for the kids, you know, to...

• 27:26Speaker 01

  It is very traumatic for the kids. Like, you read in all these books that, uh, kids perpetually, no matter what, even if it was like, even if they recognize that their parents were unhappy together, kids have in the back of their mind this vision that always that their parents are gonna get back together. Even though my kids love Claudia, and I'm sure it's the same thing here, you know, I'm sure in the back of their heads, there's always this thought. So you have to be very careful how you kind of make that introduction.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  So James introduced me to the kids as a babysitter one day, when he was going on TV, and I played with them for an hour and so on. And then later on, actually, when James told them, "I'm getting married," this is a year into, and we were about to get married, uh, the little one said, "Oh, no." And so, James said...

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, she started crying. Like, I had to pull over. We were driving to meet Claudia for the first time, where we've, they didn't know it was gonna be for the second time, but it was really, they thought it was the first time. And my little one started to cry, so I, I pulled over and said, "Look, let's just talk about it a little bit." And she was very worried, actually...

• 28:27Speaker 02

  Of two things. No, one thing.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  One thing, really. She was very worried, and this is like a Disney propaganda thing, but she was very worried that her new potential stepmother was gonna have black hair.

• 28:38Speaker 03

  It's gonna be evil and wicked, right? Oh, that's so amazing.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so when I said, "No, no, she actually has, you know, brownish reddish hair like you."

• 28:48Speaker 02

  And then he, she's, he said, "I think you're gonna like her, 'cause you already met her." And they're like, "Oh, is, is that the one with the Spanish accent?" And he goes, "Yeah," and he says, "She said, 'Oh, I can leave.'" She didn't say, "I can live with that." She said, "I can leave." She literally thought I could have killed her.

• 29:07Speaker 03

  Oh, my goodness.

• 29:08Rich Roll?

  It's amazing how Disney has propagated this idea of the evil stepmother is so like, is so like embedded in, you know, our culture. Right. Stepmom's getting a bad rap.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  So I say-

• 29:21Rich Roll?

  We could do a whole podcast on like how Disney is, you know, don't get me started.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  In some, in some places, Star Wars is pretty cool, you know, but-

• 29:28Rich Roll?

  Star Wars is gonna be great. Yeah.

• 29:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's changing, but it's true. It's like you, it's like what is being, this is, this is-

• 29:35Rich Roll?

  Well, the fairy tale.

• 29:35Speaker 03

  Well, this is being, this is a really important issue. And this, this goes back to, you know, Claudia was speaking to me on her podcast about the imbalance in spiritual teachers, predominantly men. I'm sure there are some women teachers that are in balance. I have not met any in my entire life.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Neither have I.

• 29:53Speaker 03

  You haven't either. However, always imbalance in men. But we have to start to look as, you know, as, as a collective on, on how we're objectifying women and how early it starts off, that it's implanted in the children at such a, such a little age that any woman, any peripheral woman in the community is evil and gonna kill you or poison you. Like it's like what, who came up with those to begin with? And the, and the other thing is that as a woman, you need someone to rescue you. Like, like that is the whole paradigm. And it's set up at a very, very, very young age. And this is very, this is violent against women, as a matter of fact.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  And we all play into it because we've all been raised in this humanity paradigm. So, you know, we've all, as women, we've been the seductress and we've played the sort of helpless, you know, you know-

• 30:46Speaker 02

  That misleading distress.

• 30:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, I need some, some help. And as the male, you know, you guys have been taught, oh, you know, I have to be the protector, I have to sweep in and make it all better. And when we look at this spiritually, the energy- The same thing, it's like a victim-victimizer, you know, program. So, a rescuer is the same energy as a rapist, if you really look at it. And I know that sounds really drastic, but, you know, every being is an emanation of God and comes in with a divine blueprint, with enough energy to sustain itself and even fulfill itself. So, the very idea that something would be lacking and you would have to, you know, get that from another source,

• 31:31Speaker 03

  it's not divine, it's not in divine alignment.

• 31:34Rich Roll?

  But, I mean, you would have to say that there are occasions when rescue is necessary. You know, it's like, it's not like, I mean, you have to qualify that a little bit, I think.

• 31:44Speaker 03

  I'm just saying that...

• 31:45Rich Roll?

  There are scenarios where somebody needs to be rescued and rescuing them is appropriate.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  But do men need to be rescued?

• 31:51Rich Roll?

  I'm not saying categorically, but if like, you know...

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Every day I probably need to be rescued.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  No, I know, but I mean, I'm talking about, I'm not saying that as human beings, we don't need each other and we don't interact with each other, but what I'm saying is that as divine beings, we are fully sovereign in our own right. Each being comes in with enough energy to fulfill itself. And this paradigm that's being implanted in humanity at such an early age, it's not in balance.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  And I think we're changing it. I think there are many people who are like you, like you guys, you know, that show that there is the possibility of a happy, balanced relationship between men and women. One thing we get in Ask Altucher, people tell us, they tell me, "I don't know what a healthy relationship sounds like." And, and so, I had no idea that's what we were doing, but we turned out to be a healthy relationship. And so, it's good that, you know, to have examples of, yes, it can work out, even if there's the stepmother. And yes, even if the stepfather comes in and two other children come into the mix, it can work out, as long as we own that divine energy and we access it.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  You know, I think it's an interesting thing, though, like, you know, you say, you mentioned it's the same energy, the rescuer and the rapist, and...

• 33:11Speaker 01

  I agree theoretically, but at the same time, because we are all grown up in this mythology, it's hard to pull away from that. Like, if the man is not the rescuer, there might just be like built in less attraction from the woman. Not in every case, but in some cases, because we just grow up that way, from the age of like four on.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  Absolutely, I mean, I agree with you, and that's what I'm saying. It exists in both women and men. It's not like, oh, the men have to stop doing it. It's like, we've been implanted with this imbalance, and we believe this illusion, like, within ourselves. But one of the key things with Rich being that he was working a program, one of the main things that I, that was really powerful about him in this state, coming through his addiction, and having gone through all of that spiritual work, he was not rescuing me. He would say, "I don't know. I don't know the answer to that, and I can see that you're suffering, but I can't help you with that. But I'll stand here, next to you, but I can't fix it for you."

• 34:11Speaker 02

  I love that. I love that, because it's so necessary. There are so many words in 12-step programs, and I'm not like advocating for them, I'm just saying, I've been through them. And they teach you so many little things that have been passed through centuries, like, you know, like, I don't know everything. And for, when James just listens to me and doesn't try to solve my problem, just lets me express that I am angry or whatever, is so helpful, because I don't need a solution sometimes. Sometimes I just need to say, "Look, this is, this sucks."

• 34:47Rich Roll?

  Right, I mean, a couple of observations with that. I mean, first of all, it's the great myth that every guy carries around, that, you know, when the woman has, when the woman has the problem, the guy just inherently wants to fix it, when in truth, it's usually like what you just said, where you just want to be heard, and you want somebody to say, "I'm here, and I hear you, and I support you," not necessarily to solve the problem for you.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  See, that's the most romantic thing a guy can say to a woman.

• 35:12Rich Roll?

  But it makes a guy feel helpless, because a guy, because our masculinity is tied up in this idea of problem solving, you know, and it's an identity thing.

• 35:20Speaker 03

  But it's also...

• 35:21Rich Roll?

  But I think, but hold on a second, so, you know, the idea of saying, "I don't know," conjures up this sense of vulnerability, right? Like... And it's scary, especially for men, to be vulnerable, right? But, but when you kind of get comfortable with that, there's great power in that. And I think that is, you know, one of the main reasons why James's writing is so powerful, because you're not afraid to be vulnerable and you're very transparent about your mishaps and your foibles and you have such a, you know, a brilliant touch with your writing to make it comedic and to make it emotionally accessible for people that they can tap in and they can say, "I relate to that because I see myself in that." But getting to that place, right? Like, how did you arrive at that place where you got comfortable with being that person?

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Well, I think a lot of it had to do with, you know, just in terms of the writing, everybody has, you know, as you were saying yesterday in your talk, everybody has their hardship story. You know, we all have been through everything. And we've all been through things that we're so ashamed about, we'll never reveal. And at the same time, there is some level that we'll reveal that people are going to be like shocked, "Oh, my gosh, I can't believe he or she is saying that." But that reminds me of the 10 times I've been through that exact thing that I would never tell anybody. So I, I write some of these articles and people will, you know, good friends of mine will start tweeting or whatever, "Too much information."

• 36:47Speaker 01

  And then privately, they'll email to me and say, "Oh, yeah, that happened to me and this happened to me and don't tell anybody. Don't tell it on a podcast." And so, but, but yeah, I think a lot of people, um, you know, I think men and, and to some extent, everybody, but everybody needs to be like this perfect success. And I think being comfortable with where you are right now on the path, on the journey to wherever you're going to be, which could mean saying, "I don't know," is part of that path. So you have to not know to, to start the path. Because we, we, we come out of like the age of 21.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Like, we got, we just got our head filled with all sorts of bullshit for like 18 years and then we're supposed to have this purpose in life. You know, I just got an email today. Uh, I'm 18, it was, it was from someone in India, so he was very polite. "I'm 18, sir, and I'm very depressed because I don't know what my special purpose is in life." And I'm like, "You're 18, just..." Write me again in 10 years. And I'll remember this email, don't worry, and we'll talk about it.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. You send him my meditation and get him on that.

• 38:06Rich Roll?

  But, yeah. The idea that we're supposed to know, you know, what we're supposed to do with our lives by that age.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Or by any age. Like, where I'm 47, I have no idea what I'm doing at age 48. I'm gonna be an ultra marathon runner.

• 38:23Speaker 03

  No, but you were saying earlier about, this is something that I think is very, very powerful, and that's doing what's right in front of you. Right? That's a very present, conscious way of being, you know? And so, you know, any act, any activity, anything can be a spiritual practice. And what better way to bring you to the now moment than to do what is right in front of you? So I've had this experience when we've gone through different kinds of hardships, or, you know, the road has been maybe a little bit more rocky. And when you really start looking, you go, okay, well, what do I have right in front of me? And when you really stop and you look, you'll be shocked at how many resources you have right in front of you, or things to do.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  That's a great point. Like, look at what's right in front of you, and then take like, one action. You know, because then you're doing an action. You're not just in your mind thinking, oh my god, bad things are happening. You've analyzed what's in front of you, and you're taking one action, doing something with what's in front of you. Now, stillness and silence and meditation is good too, but often we're so much in our head, there needs to be an expression of that to move forward problems, or whatever.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, and one thing I wanted to say to Rich Point about men, we are wired to think that we need to find a solution. However, and I can't speak for every woman, but when a mom becomes vulnerable, there's nothing sexier. It's like the sky breaks and thunders, and like, oh my god, who is this guy? So for any guy listening.

• 39:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's true, it's true. It's like, it's like, "He said, I don't know."

• 40:02Rich Roll?

  But it's paradoxical because you want men to be strong too, right?

• 40:07Speaker 02

  You do, but that is being strong.

• 40:09Rich Roll?

  You want it both ways. And that's very confusing.

• 40:11Speaker 03

  No, soft is strong.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Being vulnerable is very strong. That's like, what's braver than being vulnerable in front of a woman?

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Well, look at your relationship. So you were 40 and on the staircase with, you know, the potential heart attack. And you had to be the rescuer in some sense with the diet and change of lifestyle. And of course, he had to make the decision, but I think you were very much a rescuer.

• 40:38Speaker 03

  But actually, no. So I have to share with you guys the inside scoop to this story.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  We promise we won't tell anybody.

• 40:44Speaker 03

  Don't tell anyone, okay? It's just between us here on this table. No, we'll see. Okay, so I had kind of been caught in that paradigm. I had been, you know, Rich was eating junk food. He was dense. He was struggling. You know, he was still, he was not using, not drinking, but his alcoholism was, you know, gripping him at different times, you know, the energy of it. And he was having a hard time, you know, struggling. And I had healed myself of a golf ball sized cyst in my neck through the use of Ayurvedic herbs and a plant-based diet. So I had demonstrated my ability to connect with food in a very healing way. And I kept sort of reaching my hand out to him like, honey, here, just take my hand and, you know, I'm gonna help you.

• 41:28Speaker 03

  And the more I reached for him, the more paralyzed he became. And I couldn't figure it out.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, why do you think that was?

• 41:36Rich Roll?

  Well, because who, you know? Who wants to be told what to do, right? You know, like, I didn't, you know, it's sort of like, she's coming at me, do this, do that. You know, all I hear is like, you know, I'm doing it wrong. And like, so I think it brings up a lot of, you know, baggage about, you know, how I grew up and parental stuff and all of that. So it immediately throws a wall up and I like resist. So it was my natural inclination to like, shut the door, like when that, like when somebody's trying to tell me I have to change these habits, like... You know, at the time, I'm thinking, look, I already gave up drugs and alcohol. Like, just leave me alone. Like, what do you want from me? You know what I mean? Like, let me enjoy at least this aspect of my life.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Pizza and chips.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, let me enjoy my junk, my, my...

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Potato chips are vegetarian.

• 42:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, and, and the thing on my, on my end, so I had, you know, many, many, many friends that were all telling me just how right I was. Because I was clearly living the cleaner life, right? I clearly had a better, a better grip on things, right? So I tried many things, o- over really almost a seven-year period. I, I begged him, I reasoned with him, I threatened him, I...

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Did you ever get, though, disgusted to the point where, I can't do this anymore? He's never gonna listen to me. I'd rather be with a guy who's gonna at least have this lifestyle that I have.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  Well, I would say that, yeah, I, I mean, I wouldn't say disgusted, that, I wouldn't use that word, but I would say that, yeah, I came to a point in the road where I was like, okay, I need to look at this relationship and is, am I going to stay with this man? Like, it came to that. And we broke up for like a 24-hour period. Like, he left and, you know, went away and then came back with a really awesome mixtape.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  High school.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  So good. So, no, so, but getting back, so I, I was clear, I mean, listen, Rich is my third marriage. So I was married twice, so you could call me a relationship expert. I am speaking, people. And my first relationship, I was actually a battered woman, so that's a whole nother thing. My second relationship was a fairy tale marriage, exactly what I'm talking about, but produced two beautiful children, my older boys, and it, and it was a big love affair of my life for 10 years. Then I met Rich after that. So now Rich and I have been together 15 years. So I'm, you know, I'm, you know, I've got some rubber, you know, some road behind me. And I'm looking at all this and I'm, and I'm clear that I'm not leaving Rich, that, that we are not breaking up, or at least that's not what I want.

• 44:07Speaker 03

  And I'm, I'm hoping that, you know, that he, he doesn't want that either. So, um, I've had the blessing of working with an Indian master. I've, I'm, you know, I'm a spiritual seeker. I've had, you know, very many different kinds of teachers hosted at our house and, you know, I've gone to countless retreats and sweat lodges and meditations and journeys and all kinds of stuff. And this one particular Indian master, he proposed to me the idea of divine love. So he said divine love is simply like the sun. It loves you simply for your essence, how you are right now, sitting there, before any achievements earned or any, before you've done anything, just the very, the very fact you exist at all, it loves you unconditionally.

• 44:52Speaker 03

  So, and then he was talking about human love and how human love is a business arrangement. So you meet somebody, you project the image, the guy on the vision board, onto you. And then later, after you discover that, you know, that who you're married to is not the illusion of your image that you projected onto that person anyway, then you get angry and disillusioned with them. And so, for some reason, I guess I had beaten my head against the wall so long, for a good seven years, it took me a while, did not get this that, that soon. And it was tricky because I thought my reasoning was so altruistic, you know, it was so, for such a good reason. And then I realized that he was, he was a divine being of God, just as I was, and I needed to release him to his life.

• 45:36Speaker 03

  I needed to stop to need him to self-realize this lifetime, or experience life the way I was going to experience it. So I released him, and I really did release him in unconditional love and compassion. And it was when I let him go, that his transformation began.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 45:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so I think what happened in that is that, you know, I could feel, it was almost like a vacuum of energy, like it was, there was a shift where I, it was very palpable. I'm like, oh, I don't feel like, you know, there's nothing coming at me anymore. And so what that does is it flips the mirror, right? So suddenly I'm like, oh, wait, this is on me. You mean, like, I have to make a decision about how I want to live my life, you know? And I, and that decision is not going to be based upon somebody else's approval, or seeking that approval, or gaining that approval, right? And so I think that that was something that was like, new to me, and I was like, oh, wait. Like I have to take my own inventory here. And that was the beginning of like planting the seed of like, you know, what do I want? And how do I want to live?

• 46:36Rich Roll?

  And is this, you know, the path that I want to take? And taking responsibility for that for the first time, I think. And that kind of coincided, you know, that was happening shortly before the staircase thing. So it's like, had Julie not sort of consciously made that decision at that time, I don't know that that, the whole staircase kind of narrative would have transpired, you know, in the way that it did.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  So, and, and just to be clear what that narrative was for anybody who didn't, who doesn't know your story, you practically like, you were walking up a staircase and you were so out of breath and your chest was pounding and you were overweight and you were, basically you were having lots of problems. You couldn't make it up the staircase. And then from there, you said, you decided you had to make a change in your life. And is, at that point, did you say, okay, I need to start having this plant? I know you didn't start running then, you started the plant lifestyle first.

• 47:32Speaker 03

  And the dogs first.

• 47:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it wasn't, it was certainly not an overnight thing. And the narrative kind of sort of compacts it to make it seem like it all happened overnight. And it definitely was not that. But yeah, I had this moment where I was like, okay, I need to change. And I didn't know how to or what the first step was going to be. And Julie was my resource. So, you know, that, that's when, for the first time, I did turn to her and I said, you know, will you help me? Like I'm, I'm ready now to like make some of these changes. And ironically, she was like, she kind of blew me off. After all of this, you know?

• 48:04Speaker 03

  It was this really interesting thing and it, it just shows that I was truly in a, kind of in a spiritual vacuum in a way. I really was completely unattached to what he decided to do. I was completely free of it. So he asked me, you know, he's like, babe, I want to do that cleanse, you know, could you get? And I said, in the moment, I said, yes, I will get this for you. And then my body didn't move. And what I mean to say is the entire concept left my consciousness. And I didn't even think about it again until he mentioned it a second time. And then I said, he said, are you getting me the herbs? I said, yes. But then the same thing happened. It left my consciousness. And then he asked me again, and I mean, by like, the fifth time, he was so pissed at me.

• 48:46Speaker 03

  Where usually, I would have run out and I would have had him already and everything. So I was laughing at myself that this, that it kept leaving me. So I got the herbs and then, you know, um, and neither one of us had thought that he was gonna have to stop drinking coffee. And he was drinking like, venti Starbucks with three ad shots, like, twice a day.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  And you don't drink coffee anymore, anymore?

• 49:06Speaker 03

  Rarely.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Rarely. Once in a while.

• 49:08Speaker 03

  Only one, yeah, once in a while, not too much. So, um, anyway, so the first day that he was detoxing, he was just curled up in a ball sweating, like he was coming off heroin. It was so extreme. And even then, I had no attachment. I wasn't like, oh, is he gonna do this a day or a week? I was just like, wow, look at him. Kind of in the moment. But the thing, the thing that I wanna say, though, here, and this is again, like, linking to the meditation. Okay, so, later what transpired is, Rich became plant-based, then he went vegan. His story got picked up by CNN. He started doing these Ultraman races, which are double Ironman races. And he started doing and living the life that he wanted, that his heart wanted for him as a child.

• 49:53Speaker 03

  This, this is Rich as a child. He loves athletics. He was a, a fan of all kinds of, um, athletes. And, um, and this is really what he wanted to be doing. And being, becoming an Ultraman, or going back to athletics at that stage of his life, was nowhere on his vision board, his collage, or his bucket list, or his journal. And what I wanna say is that when we connect with this divine mind through meditation, our minds are only capable of so much imagining for ourselves. We can't see the picture from where we sit.

• 50:32Speaker 03

  And when you can let go, and you can really lay in the arms of this force, for me, she's Divine Mother, but she could be, it could be anything, the force, the consciousness, whatever that is, when you really can release and give yourself over to it, it will paint your life mandala far beyond anything your human could ever have imagined. And that's the, that's the deep beauty of, of our experience.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  The one thing I wanna say, and correct me you guys if I'm wrong, but in the same way that I think for a woman, the most amazing thing a man can do is say, "I don't know, tell me, you talk to me." It's like really seductive. I think for a man, to tell them, "I really like what you're doing, I appreciate you and I support you, no matter what you wanna do, I'm here for you." And never tell them they're doing anything wrong, 'cause it seems to me, men are very fragile in that sense. So if they're told, "You're doing it wrong", they're gonna be, they're gonna shut off immediately. Am I wrong, or am I striking a chord? Like, is, is...

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Well, are you saying I do that wrong?

• 51:41Speaker 02

  I'm saying, I had-

• 51:42Speaker 01

  No, I'm just kidding, that was a joke.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  You know, but it does remind me though, that of our book, The Power of No, she basically, in her own way, didn't say no, but made him ask again several times. So she was supportive, but you were sort of not quite saying yes, but, but kind of, not quite saying no either, but that is the power of no, where you say it a couple of times, and then it sort of throws it back at them, "Do I really want this?", and then they push for it. Then it's okay.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  But you know, and I never spoke about this, and it's a secret, but I will, I had an experience similar to Julie, not with a spiritual master, but with a therapist. Because James and I, when we have issues with the children, and we really have no idea what to do, which is sometimes, we visit a very wise therapist anyways. And, and this guy, first of all, he pointed out, I wasn't listening to what he was saying. He says to me, "Do you hear what he said?", and I'm like, "Yeah", and he says, "What did he say?", and I couldn't believe that after listing what I said, I actually had not heard him. And then he said, "You're telling him everything he's doing is wrong", and I'm like, "Oh my God", I've been telling him, everything I've been saying,

• 53:00Speaker 02

  has been pointing out, "Look at how this is not going well, look at that, that is not good", and that therapist turned me around, and I stopped doing that. So now, I even wrote a post, "Should I die for the next wife of James? You should know, always tell him he's doing the right thing."

• 53:19Rich Roll?

  Well, I think to your point, you know, one thing that Julie demonstrated during this kind of transition period and everything that followed was a tremendous level of faith in my journey and being an incredible, like, unflappable support system for me because I was going way out on a limb and I was doing crazy stuff that nobody in their right mind at age 42 and 43 would really logically entertain. Like, it didn't make sense, right? In the kind of narrative structure of how we're supposed to be living our lives, you know, like, "I'm a lawyer and I have kids and here's what I do and this is how I define myself." And I was questioning those and I was trying different things and these things

• 53:59Rich Roll?

  were not related to earning a living, necessarily. In fact, they were quite often at odds with that. And it would have been very normal or expected for Julie to say, "Look, you gotta quit this nonsense. Like, what are you doing? Like, we got kids and you gotta stop messing about and like, where's the bottom line and let's sit down and we gotta, you know, you need to, like, correct your ship right now." But she didn't do that. She was very cognizant that I was grappling with some things that were important to me, that perhaps she might not have understood necessarily, but she intuitively knew were things that I needed to work through for myself. And so she was always like, "You need to go do this." Like, and I would have moments of doubt where my own faith would be questioned and I was

• 54:42Rich Roll?

  like, "Why am I doing this? I shouldn't be doing that. I need to go back to, you know, living that narrative, you know, that everyone else is doing." And she was like, "No, you need to go out and do this. Don't worry. We'll, you know, we'll solve all these other problems. These are just things," or whatever, "but like, you need to, you need to walk, you need to continue to walk this path." And I think having that support system is kind of speaking to what you were, the issue that you were raising of like, having her have that confidence in me is what allowed it all to kind of blossom.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  You know, let me ask you this because, you know, Julie was mentioning how you went back to what you loved as a child. It's almost like you brought your childhood dreams to life. And I find that the same thing has happened to me and to us. And whenever I veer from that, I'm shut down, like really hard, really fast. Like if I, for instance, say, "Ah, you know, I could make 50 times the money if I just do the Silicon Valley thing again," or whatever, that would be the right thing to do. But if I even like start to go in that direction, I'm like shut down super fast, as opposed to just doing what I'm doing, which continues to grow and grow and grow.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  So I wonder if you had that... Oh, sorry, go ahead.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  No, I'm sorry, but it's true. There are choose yourself meetups now all over the world. And that's because when you focus on what you love... And I have to remind you, because sometimes you even tell me, "Why am I not going to Silicon Valley?" And I'm like, "Because you're doing what you love."

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true. And so I'm just wondering if the same... If you guys noticed the same thing.

• 56:23Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, I would say that one key thing, and I think, you know, people that don't know us, they assume that, you know, that we live this life of luxury and that's how this came about. But in fact, we were on the verge of being completely annihilated, like financially, and we call it a dismantling. And this was a long... It was a very long period. It was a seven-year period with a year on each end. So it was nine years of transformation that has brought us to this point. But what I would say is something that I experienced viscerally that I couldn't really explain to anybody. And if anybody's listening and they're going through this, they're going to know exactly what I'm talking about. Because if you're being dismantled, you know what it feels like. It is like the energy is completely shut off to you in those older ways.

• 57:07Speaker 03

  So you could send out a thousand resumes to Silicon Valley and you would never connect. It would never... Or if you did manage to connect, you would be in a lawsuit or something very, very problematic.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  By the way, yes and yes.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  Yes and yes?

• 57:24Speaker 03

  Did I tell you I'm psychic also? That's also a byproduct of meditation.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  I didn't send out resumes, but just... But the lawsuit is...

• 57:31Speaker 03

  So the thing is, and I got that message, you know, early on when this whole thing began, it was actually coincided with the birth of our fourth daughter, Jaya. But I was doing interior design and I was working, you know, I was doing, you know, boffy kitchens and buildings and I was, you know, all in it and I had a certain client and I literally got the message in meditation. It was a foreboding warning. You must stop now, immediately, and if you do not, you will pay deep karmic consequences. It was like, it felt like death to me. Rich had to wrap that job up for me. I was unable to interact with that energy anymore, in a business sense. And the message to me was,

• 58:16Speaker 03

  you can no longer work for money.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  You know, the same thing has happened with us, which is that I would say in the past three years, all of my traditional business relationships have ended, like 100% of them. So now it's just kind of the writing and the things that have been coming out of that, like podcasting and other things, these meetups that Claudia referred to, and then all of our stuff has kind of worked together. But all of my business relationships, I had to stop. I couldn't, and you were pointing it out more than I was pointing out. You would say, you have to stay away from that guy, because it was just, it was just bad for me. And I would think, no, no, he, they need me, or they're gonna go bankrupt, or whatever.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  I was filling myself with this like nonsense and...

• 59:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's another thing. When your woman says...

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Are you gonna tell me I'm wrong?

• 59:09Speaker 02

  When your woman says, stay away from that guy, you may wanna trust it. We have an instinct. I don't know what it is, but in every case, I can feel, I can feel energies. You know, we women are different. What can you do? You're totally mental and you're gonna go into the, you know, that side of the brain and you're gonna analyze it. And we go from the gut immediately, because we, I didn't, thank God, because I'm afraid of it, but we bear children, so we have a tremendous connection to the body biologically. So we feel it in the gut immediately, especially if we're balanced, you know. I'm not saying every man or every woman, obviously.

• 59:53Rich Roll?

  That's so interesting. Yeah, I think guys need to get hit over the head with it a few times before we get it, at least in my experience. But I think that's so interesting, you know, because I see you, and I'm, you know, like Julie was talking about projecting on other people, like, so if I was projecting my sense of who you are onto you, it's like, somebody who has talents in many arenas, and I look at, I see all the writing and the blogs and all crazy numbers of podcasts that you're doing, and also like, you know, being involved in all these different businesses. And I'm like, how does he even like, like, how does that work? Like, on a day-to-day basis, like, how do you have the time to do that? Like, I'm trying to just grapple with it. And it's so interesting to hear you talk about how you, you know, you're pulling your energy back and focusing on the one thing. I mean, it's like, for me, I see your writing as being really the tip of the spear of what

• 1:00:36Rich Roll?

  you're doing. I mean, you have such a, you have such a touch and such a gift and a unique voice with that, that, you know, I'm glad to hear that that's where your energy is getting focused now. Because anybody can go and work at a Silicon Valley, whatever, you know, be a venture capitalist, there's plenty of people that could do that. But your voice is your voice, and nobody else has that.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  No, thanks, I appreciate that. And the thing is, what turned out was, the less involved I was in business activities, the better those businesses would do anyway. So, I'm just good doing what I do, like, what I wanted to do as a child. So, when I was in fifth grade, I would take down, I would bring my notebook, and I would write, like, either stories, or this girl likes this guy, and this guy likes this girl. And, like, everybody wanted to get into my notebook to know, like, what I was thinking about, who was going after who. And so that's, now I'm able to actually do that.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  And then the teacher, the teacher had to remove the book from you.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Right, I wasn't allowed to.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  Because it was such a bestseller, that it had to be confiscated from this school.

• 1:01:42Rich Roll?

  It was banned, but your first book was banned.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  I was censored, by the First Amendment.

• 1:01:47Speaker 03

  I mean, I think, I think the, the spiritual field of where we've entered is, when you are doing what you're love, what you love, and you're in alignment with your heart, then the manifestation of, of energy is abundant, and it's coming in many different ways. However, I think that as spiritual beings, we are having our needs met in the moment. You know, so I think that there's not as much focus as like saving nuts up for, you know, some future timeline. Like, I always say, like, so does Buddha have a, you know, have a, you know, a savings account, or, you know, Jesus have a 401K just in case, or, you know, it's like, you, you know, you're living in tune with consciousness at such a level.

• 1:02:29Speaker 03

  So, it's not that we, we won't be playing with, we'll be playing with expansive amounts of energy, and some of those energy forms will be in the form of monies. And the beautiful thing is, having been so beautifully alchemized, or beat up by life, you know, and sort of washed around and tumbled a lot, we're in a very clean place, a very clear place. So, when we do play with that kind of energy, we have the, the ability to share it with others and, and change other people's lives. And I don't mean like, about like, by taking up like, a big charity perspective, because, you know, some forms of charity are the same energy as like, an actress, it's just another

• 1:03:10Speaker 03

  ego trip. I'm talking about just being really vulnerable, open, and in service, really. But, I told the crowd last night, we had a book release party at Powerhouse Arena in Brooklyn, and, you know, the last thing I said is, I said, you know, the reason that we wrote the Plant Power Way, and the reason that we're plant-based advocates, is that it's the first step to start to release the density that allows you to feel yourself. And we believe, and we know, that we're all divine emanations of God, the Force, the Consciousness. And so, we need everybody to be who they are, their individual blueprint. And, you know, that's really, that's really what we've tapped into, what you guys have

• 1:03:52Speaker 03

  tapped into, what we've tapped into. Definitely not an easy journey, and not for the weary.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  Well, and, and there is a lot of scientific evidence that, you know, when you explore these things, whether it's through writing, or meditation, or therapy, or these groups, or whatever, That you do have a greater sense of well-being, like, you know, feelings of freedom, feelings of competence, feelings of better relationships, these naturally start to happen. As opposed to me having to spend an hour talking to some entrepreneur who's not doing the right things and trying to convince them and whatever, no one's happy at the end of that, and that's an hour of life wasted. So, it's very important for that moment, the moments add up, so it's important for each moment to be as good as possible.

• 1:04:40Rich Roll?

  So where are you taking this ship? Like, what's next? Like, what's on the horizon? Like, you just continue doing what you're doing and writing books and blogging and podcasting, or what's on the collage, the vision board?

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  Well, I think we don't know. Like, we know that today, like, for instance, doing this podcast is like the right thing to do, and I wrote, I did a Q and A earlier, I wrote a post earlier, she did stuff earlier, she

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  I'm excited, I'm being CEO of Twitter.

• 1:05:11Rich Roll?

  You are now, this is happening, Claudia.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  So, we don't know at all what happened.

• 1:05:17Rich Roll?

  I mean, life's gonna change when you become CEO of Twitter, you might have to move.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  We're gonna move to Silicon Valley anyway because of her. But, we, there's, one thing we've known is, is that ever since we've started living this lifestyle, every six months has been completely unpredictable. Like, we have, we can't predict at all, like, two, three months in the future.

• 1:05:38Speaker 02

  Like, I'll tell you, you know, I'm a yogi, and so I used to be proud of saying, and I had a lot of ego into this, I'm a vegetarian, which means I'm so much better than anyone else, right? I had that thing going for me for a while, and then I got somehow Lyme disease or something like that, they gave me a lot of antibiotics, and to get out of that, I needed to visit a Chinese medicine practitioner who actually got me out of the antibiotics, and he told me that I needed to eat meat. So I started to eat meat again, much against my ashamed yoga ego self, right? And it's been a couple of years now, and I've recovered very well, and at the right

• 1:06:17Speaker 02

  time, i.e. five weeks ago, or six weeks ago, I come across James telling me I'm interviewing Rich, I'm thinking, my God, yoga podcast, Julie! And then, you know, I get Julie, we get the preview of the book, and we have it in black and white and in color, which is amazing. And I have been thinking that the vegetarianism, you don't choose with the mind to be a vegetarian or a plant-based person. It kind of happens, you know, because the body cannot adapt right away. And through that, you guys are changing me. Like, ever since I started eating like this, now I go to the bathroom very easy, and I seem to be okay without no meat so far.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  So I don't have any more ego about it, because it can change any minute. I don't know. But for now, it's fine.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  And what about you guys, in terms of, like, you just published this book, you're thinking of doing a podcast, you're continuing to do the ultra-Iron Superman, you know, all the marathons. Where does this take you?

• 1:07:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it's a similar answer, I think. It's shifting and it's changing. And, you know, I don't know what we're going to be. We're very much in the moment. Like, I do know one thing, which is that I love doing the podcast. And that's really been an incredible, like, not just tool, but like, benefit. Like, it's enriched our lives in so many ways.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:07:41Rich Roll?

  It's just amazing, you know. And so, I know that I will continue to do that, because, I mean, it's such... When do you get an opportunity, like, we're sitting down, we're having this amazing conversation, you know, it's like, this doesn't happen in normal life, right? It's like, it's such a cool thing. And then to be able to share that with other people is just incredible.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  And people get a lot of value out of it. Like, they, you know, there's listeners. So, I mean, it was interesting for me to switch from, okay, I'm going to talk for an hour with this entrepreneur that I don't really want to talk to, and that's going to be my day, as opposed to me calling up whoever I want in the world.

• 1:08:14Rich Roll?

  It's the greatest scam in the world.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  I could call anybody. Like, I've talked to Rich Roll, I've talked to...

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  Johnny Robins, Mark Cuban, Wayne Dyer, Julie Piatt.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  So, it's really a great thing. Like, I highly recommend it for everybody.

• 1:08:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's amazing. And so, I know that. Like, I want to continue to grow that and invest in that. And, you know, I'm trying to get it to, like, I've played around with getting to two episodes a week, and it's like, it's a lot of work.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  That's hard.

• 1:08:42Rich Roll?

  It's like, a lot of work. So... You know, I'm trying to get systems, yeah, like you're doing, you're doing five Ask Ultras, I'm like, how do you do this?

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Those are a little easier because most of that is just, she and I talking.

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  He basically says, "Come over," and I jump, and I'm ready, and we do them.

• 1:08:56Rich Roll?

  And you just boom.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  But the, but doing the interview shows, where you have to do all the preparation, for a while, I was doing three a week, and that was just, that was just too much, because I make sure, I read every book of the person, I make sure I see all the other interviewer, interviews, so I don't ask, like, the same things they've been asked a million times, or at least I ask them in a different way, so it was really hard, so now I've scaled that back to one a week, because what we were talking, what Julie and I were talking about right before the podcast started, is that there really is not a good business model for podcasting. It really is a childhood fantasy.

• 1:09:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, like, you shouldn't do it if you're trying to make money, like, it's not about that, you know, it's like, it's crazy in terms of like, a business model, but, but, but it's benefited our lives, and I mean, it's an intangible, you know what I mean?

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:09:46Rich Roll?

  It's a difficult thing, so, yeah, I encourage anybody who wants to do it, but like, but understand, like, it is a lot, you know, it's a lot of work.

• 1:09:50Speaker 03

  No, but I think, I actually, I mean, I actually think it is, that it is a very powerful business model, it's just a new business model, it's a, it's a new, it's the new frontier, really, because, I mean, we know from the book signing last night, I mean, how many people are listening to the podcast, and the other thing that's so beautiful about it is that they all feel like they're our close intimate friends, which is, how do you connect with somebody like that?

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  So your message becomes abundant, and that could translate to other types of abundance.

• 1:10:18Speaker 03

  Exactly, and I mean, that's everybody who came out and pre-ordered the book for us, and everybody who showed up for us, and also, like, you know, I'm in the, you know, in the, out in the country in Ireland, and I get emailed from, you know, Podcast Fan in Cork, and they come and pick us up and take us out to their farm and make us a plant-based breakfast, and, you know, it's crazy, like, the, you know, how it reaches so far, so you don't, you don't know who you're affecting, and so I would say that it's a, it's a spiritual, you know, Mecca model, business model, because of the activation that, you know, that's going on, and...

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  Particularly, because, because you have a message, and I think... We have not necessarily a message, but this is how we live our lives. People come up to me and said, oh, come up to me and say, oh, I love your podcast. They don't even know I have a blog, which is really where like my home is, is the, is all my posts and writing. But a lot of people just know me from the podcast, which is really pleasurable. I never would have met that audience.

• 1:11:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's amazing. So the podcast definitely will continue. And then beyond that, like writing books and, you know, traveling around, public speaking, retreats eventually. Like, I don't know. Like, it's not like I've got this, we have this scripted business plan. I mean, in terms of like the crazy races and all of that, like that's become less important. You know what I mean? It's like, how fast can I ride my bike? You know, it's like, is that really? How is that helping people? You know what I mean? So the motivation has shifted into how can I be more of service to other people? And how can I carry this healthy message and help people transform their lives? And I think where, you know, your message and our message overlap is in trying to help people kind of access their, their personal power to live more authentically, you know, to who they are.

• 1:12:01Rich Roll?

  Like the whole choose yourself thing is like so incredibly powerful. You know, like after reading your book and then when we were working on our cookbook, like we were going to self-publish our cookbook. And I almost felt like I betrayed you when we last, in the last minute, we decided to go with a publisher because there's, you know, like it is such a powerful thing. That's a difficult book too, so many photos.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  You can self-publish your book because your book is packaged.

• 1:12:25Rich Roll?

  Right, well, right, right, right. I mean, we had created that all in-house. Like as you see it, like, so, you know, we were, we had like a model kind of set up to do it that way. And we could talk more about that later. But, but, but the idea of sort of taking more control over your, your lives and, and being more mindful about those decisions and opening up people's eyes that, you know, we don't have to live, you know, it's like, we're the first generation that's kind of breaking out of this, you know, kind of madman idea of like what a career is and should be. And, and as you see the millennials, the way that they're kind of perceiving the world and what a career, you know, could and should be is completely different from, from our generation. And it's kind of exciting to be kind of, you know, part on the cusp of those two worlds.

• 1:13:09Speaker 03

  And I actually do know a couple of things that I'm working on my book, my first book. So I wrote 500 pages last year, which is obviously two books. But anyway, so I am now working on a proposal. It's for my memoir. So it's sort of like my, my story of the story.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 1:13:28Speaker 03

  So I'm very excited and it, you know, of course, it will be all about the spiritual journey and the spiritual lens, you know, that was, you know, such, really the core part of this whole thing. I always say we're spiritual beings in a human experience, not the, not the reverse. And then the other thing that's exciting for me is I am, I am working on the next cookbooks already. So I have a kitchen lab and so once a week I'm working with my sous chef and we're working on gluten-free baked stuff and then also aged cheeses and these kinds of things. So I am, that's continuing. So there's some momentum going there and people see that on Instagram. And then the, the kind of really sweet thing is, is that I started playing sitar about

• 1:14:12Speaker 03

  four months ago and I know that I'm going to be channeling something unique via that, you know, that medium. And I've also started to do some voice development in sort of another way, like I'm singing extremely high, which is something that I've never done before. So I keep all those creative channels going. So those are things that I do every day, but I don't know what they're going to give me. I'm, I'm waiting for them to give me the, give me the, the work in meditation.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  The good thing about that is, is different parts of your brain light up. So whether you're singing or playing the sitar or, you know, or writing.

• 1:14:53Speaker 03

  Or writing.

• 1:14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's, uh, you, they all interact with each other. So they make, they bring out different creativity. So about a year and a half ago, I had to give a talk that I was very nervous about. And so, and we were, we were talking earlier about 70s TV shows. The way I prepared to give this talk is I sang over and over again, sang, and I'm not a singer at all, the theme songs to Chico and the Man and Welcome Back Hotter.

• 1:15:17Speaker 03

  That's awesome.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Theme songs for of the decade. And I don't know why I picked those two songs, but I would just sing them over and over again and like practice them. And that's how I prepared for this talk, which was like my best talk ever.

• 1:15:29Speaker 03

  That's so cool.

• 1:15:30Rich Roll?

  What is the logic behind that? Like, what is the idea that that that that doing that what gets you in kind of like a childlike state? Or what? How does that alleviate the tension?

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  It it it allowed me. It allowed me to not just think about, OK, I have to say this, this, this. It allowed my brain to kind of light up in areas that maybe had never lit up before. Like, I had never sang anything before. And so that I don't know what happens, but that then fee it electricity is sent all over the brain. And that feeds the area where I had to speak. So when I actually had to speak and I I improv a lot when I speak, it was just part of that. Like, now I'm a I'm a bringing that singing voice in somehow when I'm when I'm speaking.

• 1:16:15Rich Roll?

  Welcome back, welcome back, welcome.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  That was a great song.

• 1:16:19Speaker 03

  But that's so cool, you know? It's so cool. And as a as a sort of multi dimensional, you know, creative, you know, being. I I've been told my whole life by people, you know, well, why don't you just focus on one thing? Or how can you do that? Or what do you mean? Like, and I've told, you know, my my good friends that have stuck with me through the years that if you don't, if I'm not completely unrecognizable every seven years, then I'm not living. So my my life is very is really about pushing the envelope. That's that's sort of, you know, what keeps me alive. So for me, it's just the same energy. Creative energy is spiritual energy is sexual energy. It's all the same. It's all spiritual energy. So I can channel that in whatever way.

• 1:17:03Speaker 03

  I never thought or believed that I had to have a training or a technique to do something. So, you know, I've I've painted, I've written scripts, I write songs, I sing, I cook. Like, it's all creative energy. And, you know, it's not. It's not perfect, or by anybody's standards, or it's not anything but mine. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't need to be judged against anything. It's just mine. That's all it is. It's no better or worse than anybody else. You know? It's just mine.

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  Can I make a request for your book on cooking, which you'll do together? Here's the thing. We haven't found bread that is healthy, James and me, and we crave it, and we need it, and we miss it. Please.

• 1:17:51Speaker 03

  Yes, that's what I'm, that's definitely what I'm working on right now.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:17:54Speaker 03

  So, yeah, so there's this whole thing, you know, I am, we, how are we on time? Do you have to go? Do we have? No. Okay, good. Yeah. Okay, I just want to check. So, okay, so the boys and I have been studying with this amazing realized being named Vidya Dhananda. His title is actually His Holiness Vidya Dhananda. So, he's from a very, very monastic, pure order of monks in the high Himalayas. And he has over 50,000 hours of meditation experience in the high caves with just a cloth in sub-freezing temperatures. They actually drop their heartbeats, and they go out of their bodies and merge with the cosmos. And then they come back in, and they compare notes.

• 1:18:37Speaker 03

  So, the monks, you know, there's like, sort of, a class, and they all write, you know, "Well, this is what I saw, and this was what I experienced." And that's how the senior monks know if they pass the test. Like, if they really, if they really got there. So, anyway, we have the big blessing that he happens to be living in Santa Barbara. So, we go up and meditate with him, and I've done some retreats with him, and Rich and I hosted him at our home. And he is a medical expert, you know, master, as well as a musical master. And he sees a tremendous problem with the wheat and gluten issues.

• 1:19:18Speaker 03

  And so, what he was teaching us is that we need to make breads with the ancient grains, like millet. And so, I'm in, I'm in an exploration with that. Also, there's some, a lot of fermentation, like breads that can be fermented. So, that is really my, that's my biggest, sort of... Inspiration after the book because you know baking bread is completely different and also baking cakes. So I was able to achieve a very great chocolate cake that was part of the pre-order bonus recipes. It's a cherry cacao cake. It's actually on the cover of my album Jai Home. It was my cake art as well. But yeah, I'm going to be developing all of that because that's the same thing in my

• 1:20:03Speaker 03

  family. You know, we're eating out of my book and it's great and the bread is not cutting it. And when you buy gluten free, most of the time it's not healthy.

• 1:20:12Speaker 02

  And it's disgusting. I'm sorry.

• 1:20:15Speaker 03

  It doesn't taste good. So yeah, so we're working on that and you know, and it is a whole science and a thing. So fingers crossed I hope I succeed.

• 1:20:22Speaker 02

  No more Wonder Bread for you, James. Oh, yeah. Julie's coming up with it now.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  It's not a plant?

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  Thank God.

• 1:20:28Rich Roll?

  I know James wanted to, we forgot to open it that way, but before we started recording, James said, is Wonder Bread a plant? I don't know. It is vegetarian. It exists in three dimensions.

• 1:20:37Speaker 03

  I was going to say, actually, that Wonder Bread does have one beautiful energetic aspect with it, and that's the name and the resonance of the name. So I guess with an applied intention.

• 1:20:50Rich Roll?

  Wonder if it's bread?

• 1:20:51Speaker 03

  No, a Wonder Bread. Yeah, you could wonder if it's bread.

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  Like Wonder Woman, too.

• 1:20:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, like a superpower bread. But again, like I always say, you know, you can transform anything with the intention that you put on it, so.

• 1:21:04Speaker 02

  Thank you, Julie.

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  I have a question about what you said earlier, how every seven years, if you're not unrecognizable again, that you're doing the wrong thing. And I wanted to ask, like, both of you guys are recognizable by what you're doing now. Like, you with the ultra marathons, do you feel like super identified with that so that if you were no longer identified with that, it would be, it would feel funny to you? Like, you pointed out with me, with my writing, how you identify with this particular voice that I use in the writing. I do wonder, you know, you ultimately, everybody changes voice. And so every seven years, or every three years, or five years, or like Louis CK that can be...

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  ... changes his act every year. So when do you think, and I've had this conversation even with Ice T. So before we started our podcast, I said to him, if you appeared nowhere for X amount of time, how much time would it take before nobody talks about you?

• 1:22:06Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  And he said, right away, six months. So it's obviously like, everybody thinks about this. So what's your thoughts on this?

• 1:22:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. The idea that you're no longer going to be relevant. Well, first of all, that's a great question. And I don't know if anybody's ever asked me that. So, you know, thanks for that. I think that it's, um, it's really important to be, to not be dogmatic about these things. And I think, yeah, it's like, oh, Rich Roll, oh, he's the vegan, he's the, you know, ultra distance triathlete guy. And so these are the monikers, you know, that, that, that I kind of shoulder. And I'm comfortable with that and I'm cool with that. But, you know, what happens if something changes? And, you know, I decide that I want to eat differently, or I don't want to be an athlete anymore. Like, do I have to continue to, you know, be the guy who, you know, everybody expects me to be?

• 1:22:55Rich Roll?

  And I think it's important to always be challenging yourself and to not allow yourself to be, you know, limited by those definitions. But it's, it's difficult too. And I think especially as, you know, the audience grows and there's more, you know, people know who you are.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  Right. So they expect a message.

• 1:23:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's an expectation that comes with that. And so, you know, we've been traveling a lot, doing a lot of appearances. And every time somebody says, what's your, what are you training for? What's your next race? And the, the truth is, I'm not training for a race right now. And there are things I'd still like to do athletically, but life is really busy right now. Life is very much in session in a different kind of way. And that way is, is, is sort of connecting with people and being of service to them and, and being kind of a missionary of this idea and this message that we're promulgating. And, and in so doing, there's just not time to go out on an eight hour bike ride, nor do I, do I, am I certain that that's appropriate anymore? You know, maybe I won't compete anymore. Maybe I will. That door is open. But I don't want to be defined by that idea.

• 1:23:54Rich Roll?

  Like, I'm almost 50 anyway. So it's like, you know, am I going to be doing this forever? You know what I mean? Like, I, I want to be able to find a way to... To continue the work that we're doing, but do it in a way that's sustainable and provides for my family and is, you know, I don't know. I mean, so, so yeah, it's always being challenging those labels, I think, is important if you want to continue to expand. I mean, it'd be easy to stay that guy, like, oh, I can just be the plant, I could just continue to write books about plant-based nutrition and being an athlete, but like, I don't think that that's really, I think that there's, there is more that can be said in different ways, you know, and I'm interested in the growth.

• 1:24:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I would say that really, I mean, how relevant are any of us in terms of the cosmos? Like, not relevant at all.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  I agree theoretically, and then, and you try to live that life, but then it's hard, like, something inside, like...

• 1:24:55Speaker 03

  It's fighting, your ego's like, no. Well, yeah, I mean, maybe, so for me, it's like, that's, that's just another, I'm, I'm very viscerally aware of how, how short or fragile this life is and what a blessing it is to be here. And that's one of the reasons why I was able to support Rich in this crazy, seemingly crazy, you know, out on a limb thing that, you know, caused a lot of, it caused our family a lot of financial hardship and a lot of, you know, it was, it was a hard, it was a hard journey. It wasn't an easy journey. But for me, the most, the whole purpose of life is spiritual transformation. And so you can't, you know, you can't do that if you're hanging on to a bank account

• 1:25:38Speaker 03

  or like a security job. So for me, I would say that it's the transformation that's relevant. And so I can't say to what degrees that would be happening, but the whole, the evolution has to be going. And so like, I can speak musically, like, I know my next musical project is going to be something twisted, different. Like, I don't, I know she's coming in, but I don't know exactly what she looks like yet, but I'm preparing with the, the structure to receive her. So I, I know that's coming. So I would say that I don't really identify with it. I don't like labels around me anyway. And I've always said that if I woke up tomorrow and if my body told me it needed a piece of meat, I would go find a sacred, wild, hunted.

• 1:26:22Speaker 03

  I'd do a ceremony and I'd eat it as medicine if I needed that. That hasn't happened. I don't expect that to happen. But I don't like to have labels and boxes around me because that's not a yogic way to live. It's not spontaneous or free.

• 1:26:35Speaker 01

  Well, let me ask you. So now, like you were mentioning in Ireland, a fan wrote you and you had your book opening, you know, party, book release party last night. So now you're getting this other taste of there's people out there that I've been connecting with that, and there's a certain magic to that, of course. And it feels very special and it's addictive as well. And so what would happen if, let's say, five years from now, you had none of that? Would you feel, do you think, obviously you can't predict, but do you think that would feel bad?

• 1:27:11Speaker 03

  No, I mean, I don't. And I mean, I can say for myself, I don't personally identify with it. It's sweet and I enjoy the connection and I'm grateful. And as a human being, I enjoy connecting with other people. But I never for one minute believed that it's me or that it has anything to do with this personality. It's simply a reflection of the one force. So it's like my music that I received, I received it in meditation. I wasn't trying to write a song. It just wrote me. So that's why I sing under the name Shrimati because it's my spiritual name. And because I feel like it was given to me from another, from another energy. They don't belong to me. Like if somebody said to me, I hate your music, it means nothing to me. Because I'm like, yeah, go tell God about it.

• 1:27:56Speaker 03

  Like tell God. Like I almost feel like a, like a kind of a bystander in a lot of ways. And I think that, you know, it's a trap to get in the illusion of thinking that, you know, that it's personality based because it's not. We're, we only exist here. We only experience this journey, the way that it's been laid out by the grace of God. That's seriously, like, like not that long ago, Rich and I were, were.

• 1:28:24Speaker 03

  We broke down crying in Starbucks. Like, we were actually sobbing. Our family on the precipice of complete annihilation, of losing everything, of realizing that every single decision we had made together as a couple had been wrong. And we were just there, on the razor's edge. It could have gone either way. And it went this way. And we're grateful. We are so grateful. But, yeah, I think that alchemical journey, that nine years of being battered by the storm, it provides a maturity and an awareness. And so, for that, no one can take that from us, no matter what happens with this illusion, with this, if this explodes, or we're not doing this,

• 1:29:09Speaker 03

  or even if we're not together, or even, you know, whatever's happening. No one can take that awareness because it became a part of us.

• 1:29:18Speaker 02

  That's amazing. I wanted to ask you a question because I wonder, and I'm not exactly sure how it's going to tie it up, so I'm just going with the flow of life here. So bear with me. But you know how there is a voice in the head that keeps telling me, "You're no good enough, you're stupid, that's silly"? That's how it goes for me. Have any of you been able to quiet that voice for a period longer than five seconds?

• 1:29:46Rich Roll?

  That voice, I'm so familiar with that voice. I'm very intimately connected to that voice. And that voice has been with me my whole life. You know, like self-defeatism and poor self-esteem and, you know, the idea that nothing is ever going to work out and I don't deserve to have good things. I mean, that is my bedfellow, you know? And so, for me, and I think it fuels my alcoholism. It's all very complicated and, you know, and tricky. But...

• 1:30:16Rich Roll?

  I can, I only get respite from that in moments, you know. For me, it's like, it takes relentless, constant work to always be trying to arrest that sense, because that is my, that's my default setting, you know, from as far back as I can remember. Julie doesn't really share that, and she can speak to her own personal experience with that, and she helps me kind of navigate that. But really, through meditation and through like the active meditation of the running and the swimming and the things that I do, I find relief, you know. And that relief is not, is, is, is hard wrought, you know, and it's fleeting. So it, and it never, I don't know that I'll ever overcome it, you know, but it's some,

• 1:30:58Rich Roll?

  so it's almost like something that I'm living with all the time, but I'm always trying, trying to consciously overcome that.

• 1:31:06Speaker 03

  I don't have that voice. I have just space. I, that's not to say that I can't have a busy mind, like I have four kids and if I have like stuff that has to happen, you know, I might have those thoughts. But I don't have voices that, that, that attack me in a negative way. I don't have a negative voice.

• 1:31:26Speaker 02

  Did you ever have, had it?

• 1:31:29Speaker 03

  No, I don't think I ever had it. I don't think I ever had it.

• 1:31:32Rich Roll?

  That's like, you're like a Martian.

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  No, because, well, she grew up, you know, in the forest of Alaska, and her parents were crazy that she would roam free for 24 hours, like where she could freeze. And, and so you were so connected to nature so early on, and I wonder whether...

• 1:31:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, it was Colorado first. I mean, I had a very, a very aware consciousness of, of, of being the age I am now when I was born. I've always felt the way I feel right now, like there's no difference. And I was waiting around a lot when I was a kid for my childhood to be over so that I could go do what I needed to do. So, you know, it was... Yeah, I just, I've just, I've never been attacked by negativity like that. That's not to say that, that I don't have a pain body that sometimes get activated, or I get threatened, or I get afraid, or something like that. I do, but there is a consciousness that's beyond it. And, you know, I also had this thing that I'm very, I'm very compassionate with myself, and I'm very compassionate with other people.

• 1:32:34Speaker 03

  So, I don't have a lot of judgments about people, or what they're doing, or about myself. And I think that's something, maybe just the way I was created, why I was always able to try something. Just go, "Oh, I can paint, but I have no training in painting, but here, watch me." And then I just figure it out, somehow. So, I never, I never had that set for myself, and I never really had that set for someone, for someone else.

• 1:33:00Speaker 02

  So, what would you recommend for someone that does have that voice going on?

• 1:33:04Speaker 03

  Meditation. Meditation and yoga. And I think what cultivated a lot for me, too, is a lot of time on the mat, a lot of time in yoga. You know, when you get that second attention, or even being in spiritual practice. When I'm looking at you, but I have another attention on a divine energy, the same time. So, it's holding that double awareness. And then you can say, it's sort of like also the, the little child. This is super, super helpful, okay? Because we are spiritual beings having a human experience. So, the ego or the little, the person is just like a little child, you know? So, you can care for your little child, and you can understand that that's not you. You can say, "Oh, I'm feeling jealous." Well, that's just the little child that's feeling jealous, that's not you.

• 1:33:49Speaker 03

  So, you can connect with that greater self, and actually comfort yourself, and take care of yourself the way you would somebody else. So, I think it's the disconnection from ourselves, you know, that, that gets, that can be problematic.

• 1:34:04Rich Roll?

  I think another thing that's helped me a lot is understanding that that kind of mentality is also a very selfish mentality, right? Because it's very self-obsessed, like, "Oh, it's all about me and like, what's gonna happen to me." And, you know, one of the things I learned very early on in sobriety was that self-esteem comes from performing esteemable acts, right? And so, a way of combating that, that kind of default setting, or overcoming it, is to get out of yourself and your problems and just invest yourself in somebody else. Like, call somebody else up who's having a harder time than you. There's nothing that will cure yourself of getting out of your own head and your own, like, petty, whatever it is, looping, you know, thought patterns, than just by getting

• 1:34:47Rich Roll?

  involved in somebody else and helping them through a difficult time.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting, because it's almost a contradiction in how people normally think. You normally think if you're, if you're very positive, then suddenly you become qualified to encourage others. But actually, the people who are most discouraged should be the ones encouraging others, because that's how you really make the most transformation, probably on both sides.

• 1:35:10Rich Roll?

  Of course. Well, just by virtue of being a human being, you have experiences that have value to other people, right?

• 1:35:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think they happen. Things happen to people who will be able to share them. That's why they happen to you. Like, I have certain things that have happened to me that are pretty horrible, but those things made me the woman I am today, in a way. So, I agree with that completely.

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  It's funny, because the past, let's say, five or six years, since we've really gone kind of full-force down this type of path, it's almost like I welcome bad things to happen. Because then it's like, then it's like...

• 1:35:47Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  Because that, but, but...

• 1:35:49Speaker 03

  He's calling Grace. Grace, Grace, Grace here.

• 1:35:53Speaker 01

  But then it's like, this gives me a chance to actually see if this stuff that I've been doing is, is working.

• 1:36:01Speaker 02

  I think life...

• 1:36:02Speaker 03

  It'll give you enough.

• 1:36:03Speaker 02

  It gives you enough.

• 1:36:05Speaker 03

  Don't ask for more. Grace, we'll just call Grace into this.

• 1:36:08Speaker 02

  Yes, thank you. Thank you, yes.

• 1:36:10Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:36:11Rich Roll?

  Well, the worst-case scenario is it gives you something awesome to write about.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's always, I always know I'm gonna have content. Like, we had something bad happen this morning, actually. Somebody took my latest book and completely duplicated it and published it under their name. Yeah, and so it was just then, you know, and then we didn't know. All sorts of things started to think, well, what else is he doing? Or what's he up to?

• 1:36:38Rich Roll?

  Like, on Amazon and everything?

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  On Amazon, yeah.

• 1:36:40Speaker 02

  The mind, the voice went crazy.

• 1:36:43Speaker 03

  Went crazy.

• 1:36:43Speaker 02

  We have to do something. Oh!

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  But then again, it gives an opportunity to sort of work through.

• 1:36:48Speaker 03

  Something like that just happened to Rich, too.

• 1:36:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, somebody, I just found out somebody published a book. It's a Kindle on Amazon about running. And on the cover is a picture of me running. Like, I've never heard of this person. And I'm like, I don't know anything about it, or whatever. And he just stole a photograph of me and put it on the cover of his book.

• 1:37:08Speaker 03

  But actually, that's a sign, it's a sign, you know what it is? It's, um, that's a distraction from, uh, from like energies that want to distract you. You know what I mean?

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  Right, well, and again, that gives us the chance to see.

• 1:37:22Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Is this practice, did we, you know, we call, meditation's often called a practice. Well, practice for what? Practice for this moment. This is one of those moments that it's a practice for. So, did it, did it work? Was my practice good?

• 1:37:35Speaker 02

  It didn't for me. It delayed my yoga practice by like two hours. It was like, I was calling the thing.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Well, I saw it first at like, you know, I was kind of not feeling so well. And I looked at three in the morning at my books. And I saw, why are there two Choose Yourself guides to wealth out there? And then I saw this, but then I went back to sleep. Like, I didn't think about it. And then, when we were dealing with Amazon, you were like, we've gotta call like Jeff Bezos right now. And I'm like, let's just, let's just play this out.

• 1:38:08Speaker 02

  See, that's the voice, that's the voice.

• 1:38:09Rich Roll?

  So, somebody literally just cribbed the entire thing, same cover, same title, and said it was by you?

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, actually, he said it was by me, all in caps, with him as the editor. And then- And he stole all my reviews. And so there were two versions of my book.

• 1:38:24Speaker 02

  I tried putting a one star review and it went into the real book too.

• 1:38:28Rich Roll?

  That's an amazing scam. So whoever's doing that is out there doing it to probably a lot of people.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  Oh, we saw he is.

• 1:38:34Rich Roll?

  Like this is just a way of people unknowingly, just, you know, accidentally buying the wrong book. And these people just profiting off of that.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  So I would call customer service and I would say, listen, I'm going to give you a chance to be a real hero at Amazon right now. Cause someone has like hacked a thousand books at Amazon. And she was like, I'm sorry, sir, I can't help you. And, uh, uh, but finally, cause fortunately we know people at Amazon, we were able to get things accomplished.

• 1:38:59Speaker 02

  And I think he's down now?

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And so that's what I figured would happen. So.

• 1:39:04Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. I mean, I think that, that it's a great, you know, this is how Julie and I are different, right? So like when I found out that there's this book out there and I'm on the cover and it's talking about the paleo diet and all these things that like are not who I am, I, I went insane, right? And I show it to Julie, you know, sort of expecting her to have an equal, you know, sort of response to this. And she's like, oh, that's interesting, you know, like, so what do we, you know, like it just doesn't, it, you know, she's like not investing herself emotionally in this at all, which I think is probably the more apropos reaction to this, cause I'm spinning my wheels and going crazy. And the truth is it's a quality problem in certain respects. It's like, it's, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a compliment and it's really just not a big deal.

• 1:39:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, my reaction was probably somewhere in the middle because I saw he was getting sales. Like his Kindle rank was like competing with my, the real Kindle rank. So, so I had to wonder like, how much money is he, you know, kind of putting his hand in my pocket, which I don't really like so much.

• 1:40:04Speaker 03

  Well, again, I mean, it's not like I would, I would want that to be changed. And I mean, I don't think that that's okay to do. I also, I find it kind of ridiculously funny, you know, funny, funny that humanity works that way or the illusion of, of that mind. And then at the other, at the other end, as I, I also see that that energy will try to disrupt you. So whenever I'm in those situations, you can just go to Jedi Warrior, okay? So if you're really walking the path, you're a Jedi Warrior. So have you ever seen a Jedi Warrior lose their shit on screen?

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:40:37Speaker 03

  No, they don't. And I'll tell you where your power is, your power is in neutral, neutral compassion. So you just stay in zero.

• 1:40:45Speaker 02

  Wait, what does that mean?

• 1:40:46Speaker 03

  It means stay in your core, like, um, actually feel the center, like, three inches below your heart.

• 1:40:53Speaker 02

  Like, take a deep breath?

• 1:40:55Speaker 01

  I think that's what we were able to do.

• 1:40:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, and just. You'd still take the action. You still take the action, you just don't get all emotional, don't spike your insulin.

• 1:41:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, for instance, we tracked him down, like, personally, because he had, his name was exposed, and we had his LinkedIn page. So I just wrote him a note, saying, hey, no hard feelings, you just need to take this down. And he never responded, but just, we did those types of actions. Given the resources we had available, as you were talking about earlier, we took the right actions. And that's all we could do. Then I had to write a post, and I had to do a podcast, and I had to do other things.

• 1:41:30Rich Roll?

  What's so hilarious, though, is that it's so easy to find out who this guy is, like, obviously, he knows he's gonna get caught. And like, what is the mentality that's going on there? Like, he's just counting on you, saying, oh, we'll just let by. So in the meantime, he pockets a little bit, and then just moves on to the next book.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  But he should have, if I were him, he should have at least done it in a fake name. Because he has actually books that he's written, that he does make money off of. And I warned him in the note, like, you could put yourself in serious trouble here. Like, you should not do this. Yeah.

• 1:42:04Rich Roll?

  But I love the idea of, like, him waking up in the morning, and a light bulb going off in his head. Like, I'm gonna copy.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he didn't really, he didn't copy any other books. Like, I asked, why didn't he, like, copy Tim Ferriss's book or something?

• 1:42:18Speaker 02

  I think it happened to you, because you're gonna tell this story, then, you know? Because it's a great story, and, you know, all of this, talking to you guys, you not having the voice, he has it. I went crazy.

• 1:42:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, that voice, well, and that's, you know, that's the scary thing, too. Well, that's the kind of. Tragic thing in a way and it's like, you know, you get these people that are impulso and you know, they do horrible things and it's not even them. It's another energy that comes in that basically kind of takes over. So you could call it the-

• 1:42:50Speaker 02

  The dark side.

• 1:42:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, you could call it that.

• 1:42:52Speaker 01

  No, but also he could be scared. He lives in Bangladesh, right? So he could be scared. He could be broke or needed a little extra money really quickly.

• 1:42:59Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  And so this was a technique.

• 1:43:01Speaker 03

  He was like, I have to do this.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:02Speaker 03

  I'm so sorry, James.

• 1:43:04Rich Roll?

  You should write him a thank you letter because he's given you something to write.

• 1:43:07Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  Well, but we have stuff like this, I would say, every other day. There is some experience that is so over the top, we have to write about it.

• 1:43:16Speaker 02

  Living with James is like living with a tornado that's about to erupt and the eruption happens about once a month, guaranteed.

• 1:43:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe even a little more frequently.

• 1:43:26Rich Roll?

  Beautiful. Well, I think we gotta wrap it up because I gotta go. I gotta, I gotta go. Okay.

• 1:43:32Speaker 03

  Just one thing that I wanted to mention as a, as a tool also to help with the, with the voice, right? So I think, you know, we all know that if you just look at it logically and look at the cosmos and look at really how meaningful are we, you know, even as a species, you know, everybody's like, we have to save the planet. Well, the planet will be fine. It's a matter of if humanity continues to exist, you know, the way, the way we've been behaving. But-

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  Oh, wait. I'm sorry to interrupt on that.

• 1:43:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 1:43:58Speaker 01

  So I said that recently-

• 1:44:00Speaker 03

  And someone freaked out.

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  Someone actually wrote a blog post saying I should be institutionalized at a mental institution.

• 1:44:05Speaker 03

  Really? Oh, no. Not gonna say it about me.

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  I said the human species is one out of 8.7 million. So who really, I, I said, I really like humans, but it doesn't really matter if on this planet if we exist or not.

• 1:44:18Speaker 03

  No, it doesn't. The planet's gonna be fine. I mean-

• 1:44:20Rich Roll?

  Do a lot better.

• 1:44:21Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  Right. Definitely.

• 1:44:23Speaker 03

  And it's, it's up to us. And I mean, we're trying to do everything we can, you know, but you know, so we'll, we'll, we'll see how we fare. But what I would say is, and this is a spiritual practice. It's very, very simple. And it's that, you know, before you go to bed, you know, you can offer your entire life to that force, all the good and all the bad. So you don't take any of the credit. You just go, okay, you know, in gratitude, I live this day and I offer you my entire existence today and now I'm lying down to sleep. And then when you wake up in the morning- You dedicate your whole day to that existence. So when something great happens, it's not yours. And when something tragic happens, it's not yours. But you're simply serving, you're of service.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny, we wrote about that a little bit in The Power of No. I think we called that chapter the Anti-Law of Attraction. In that we said, let's assume for a second, we don't know either way. Let's assume for a second, there is something similar to the law of attraction. We don't want any of it. Like, whatever you were going to give it to us, just give it to wherever you want to give. Was a chapter in The Power of No.

• 1:45:30Speaker 03

  You wrote that one, yeah.

• 1:45:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, that's very similar to the idea of surrender, which is like a big thing in sobriety, right, in recovery. Like, the idea of letting go and non-attachment, right? Like, surrendering the results. Like, you do the work, but you surrender your attachment to the result of that. You know, and there's a certain piece that comes with that. And it's actually very, it feels like defeat. It's difficult to mentally grapple with what that means, because it sounds like you're giving up, but it's actually not. It's actually like a very courageous, powerful thing to do.

• 1:46:03Speaker 01

  Right, because you can always take action. It doesn't stop you from taking action.

• 1:46:06Rich Roll?

  Right. But you're not derailed by the results of whatever that, wherever that action leads.

• 1:46:12Speaker 03

  And you're not giving up, you're giving in to something greater than yourself. You know, than the personality. And, you know, it's beautiful. And, I mean, really, when you look, if you look at it just logically, like, even the most famous person that you've ever heard of in your entire life. So they die, and it's on the news for what, like, five minutes? And then it's over. So it's like, what illusion are we creating in our minds? You know, about, so that's why, live the life that you want to live. Live the life that you were designed to live. And the answer lies in your heart. And stay out of fear, do what you love. And you're gonna be good.

• 1:46:51Rich Roll?

  I love it.

• 1:46:51Speaker 01

  And thank you guys for joining us.

• 1:46:53Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:46:55Speaker 01

  Podcasters in dining rooms, drinking tea, discussing everything.

• 1:46:59Rich Roll?

  We're still not sure whose podcast this is, but it will be somebody.

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  It'll go on all of them. We've got five, five different podcasts.

• 1:47:06Rich Roll?

  I feel like, I feel like you interviewed us. I still have so many questions for you guys, so.

• 1:47:11Speaker 03

  We'll have to do it again, for sure, okay?

• 1:47:13Rich Roll?

  In California.

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:47:15Speaker 03

  Oh, thanks you guys.

• 1:47:16Rich Roll?

  All right, well, thanks so much for your time. You guys are lovely. You guys love each other. Really delightful. I love each other, you know, so much love in the table.

• 1:47:24Speaker 03

  We do. Mutual love affair.

• 1:47:26Rich Roll?

  All right. Until next time, then.

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:47:28Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 1:47:29Speaker 03

  How do you plant?

• 1:47:32Speaker 03

  Namaste.

• 1:47:36Rich Roll?

  All right, so that was cool, right? I thought that was super fun. I find them to be delightful, and I really enjoyed that. I hope you did as well. So be sure to check out The James Altucher Show and The Yoga Podcast with Claudia. Both of those are on iTunes. You can read James's blog, The Altucher Confidential, at jamesaltucher.com, and you can read Claudia's blog at claudiayoga.com. Be sure to check out all their books. That should keep you busy for about a year. Just don't forget to use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for those purchases. In any event, links to all this stuff, including all their social media accounts and some relevant press stuff, can all be found on the episode page at richroll.com. And be sure to let me know what you thought of this episode in the comments section, also on the episode page at richroll.com.

• 1:48:24Rich Roll?

  Keep sending in the questions for future Q and A podcasts to [email protected]. And of course, for all your plant power needs, go to richroll.com as well. We've got nutrition products. We have signed copies of Finding Ultra and The Plant Power Way. We've got 100% organic cotton garments, Julie's meditation program. You heard Claudia singing the praises of that. We have plant-powered tech tees, which are great, and we have plant-powered peace and plant sticker packs, temporary tattoos. We've got fine art, the USDA series, from my fine artist buddy, Andrew Pasquilla. That's a super cool new. ...addition to the site. Basically, everything you need to take your health and your life next level. We got your bases covered at ritual.com.

• 1:49:07Rich Roll?

  If you're into online courses, I've got two of those at mindbodygreen.com. The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition, as well as The Art of Living with Purpose. The former is all about getting more plant-powered in your life. It's a good sort of compadre piece to the Plant Power Way, I think. And The Art of Living with Purpose is really about setting goals and getting your life on a better trajectory with strategies and tools. I'm really proud of both of these courses, both of which are multiple hours of streaming video content and an online community, all kinds of good stuff. You can find them at mindbodygreen.com. Just click on "Video Courses." All the information is there. So, thanks for supporting the show. Thanks for telling a friend. Thank you for sharing it on social media.

• 1:49:50Rich Roll?

  Thank you for leaving a comment on the episode page, and thank you for giving us a review on iTunes. Yes, we love that. And of course, for using the Amazon banner at ritual.com for all your Amazon purchases. Okay, you guys, I will see you in a few days. Hope you're having a great week, and keep it real, keep it authentic. All right? Can you do that for me? Cool, you guys. All right. Peace. Plants.