David Choe On Finding Beauty in Brokenness

Can art and happiness coexist? Is great art only forged through pain? And is suffering integral to creativity? These are just a few of the many questions explored in today’s colorful excavation of David Choe’s fascinating soul. I suspect many of you are already well familiar with this human and his art. Perhaps you watched his VICE special, Thumbs Up. You’ve seen him alongside the late Anthony Bourdain in Parts Unknown or the recent documentary Roadrunner. He’s also appeared on Howard Stern, Joe Rogan, and David Chang’s podcast. But for those unfamiliar, David is an extraordinarily unique and talented street artist, fine artist, performance artist, and muralist. He’s also a musician, journalist, writer, producer, fellow podcast host, a self-proclaimed liar, thief, altruistic narcissist, vagabond, and recovering sex and gambling addict. In other words, he’s a highly flawed human—just like the rest of us. Most of the conversations that swirl around David tend to revolve around his wealth (he took stock instead of cash for murals he painted on the walls of Facebook that would later enrich him to the tune of $200M) and the countless wild yarns he spins about his many well-documented adventures, escapades, and public scandals. Today we travel beyond the David of yore to meet a very different man. An artist and human who has grappled with his demons and emerged more complete. Grounded. And grateful. What interests me most about David has nothing to do with his wealth, fame or copious talent. Instead it’s his honesty—a rare and raw vulnerability that is both sweet and endearing. A reflection of his devotion to self-growth, the David of today is refreshingly open about his journey and failures. The result is a deeply empathetic, sensitive, caring, and thoughtful man in search of personal truth and connection—all of which is writ large and beautifully captured in his latest utterly unique creation, The Choe Show on FX. Today’s conversation centers on mental health, childhood trauma, and the many perils of addiction. It’s about identity, sobriety, creativity, and more broadly, the journey to self-acceptance and self-love. David is one of the few brave individuals who can shine a flashlight on the darkest places of his soul—a rare authenticity that somehow gives everyone else the green light to do the same. To read more click here. You can also watch listen to our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Note: If this is your first rendezvous with David, this is not one for the kiddo’s ears. Explicits are dropped. You have been forewarned. I adore this conversation. It’s nothing short of magical, and I hope you find it helpful especially if you’re one of the many who are struggling or suffering right now. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05David Choe?

  How did I feel when I won $3 million on my last trip? And I'm playing a quarter-million-dollar hands of blackjack in private, private rooms, you know? And at that point, I felt very little. But, like, you win $3 million, it feels good. When I lose $3 million, and even better yet, when I lose $30 million, then that feels amazing, right? That feels amazing. So, I think that was the disconnect with trying to talk to people in my tribe who are addicts and people who aren't addicts, right? And it doesn't matter if you're an addict or you're not an addict, because everyone knows an addict, or at least has one in their family. So, that's the thing when people go, "But, I don't understand. Why didn't you stop drinking? Or why didn't you stop the behavior?"

• 1:50David Choe?

  It's like, I wanna fucking lose, that's why. Do you get it? Do you understand now? I don't wanna win. I'm happier when I'm losing. I wanna lose everything.

• 2:11Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Good to be here. Good to have you. Good to be alive. Today's conversation, I think it's fair to say, is rather unlike my typical fare, and I think quite beautiful in its honesty, its raw vulnerability, and its colorful excavation into the fascinating soul and chaotic multiverse that is David Cho's brain. I've been fascinated with David for years. I suspect many of you are already well familiar with this human and his art. Perhaps you've seen him on the late Anthony Bourdain show,

• 2:54Rich Roll?

  or in the recent documentary Roadrunner about Bourdain's life. He's also appeared on Howard Stern, Joe Rogan, and David Chang's podcast, all worth checking out, by the way. But for those unfamiliar, David is an extraordinarily unique and creatively talented street artist. He's a fine artist. He's a performance artist. He's a muralist, unexpectedly, one of the highest paid living artists in the world, as well as a musician, a journalist, a writer, a producer, a television host, a fellow podcast host, and as well as a highly flawed human, just like the rest of us. He's a self-proclaimed liar, thief, altruistic narcissist, vagabond,

• 3:39Rich Roll?

  and recovering sex and gambling addict. But, and this is the real important part, and why I really wanted to meet him, he's also just a refreshingly honest, wildly vulnerable, open, deeply empathetic, sensitive, caring, and thoughtful human, trying, again, just like the rest of us, to be just a little bit better today than yesterday. A bunch more, I want to say, before we dive in, but first.

• 4:16Rich Roll?

  Okay, Dave Cho. So officially, the spark for reaching out to David now is his latest creation, Cho Show on FX, which is this incredible, limited series that I'm obsessed with. You've heard me talk about it a couple of times on the podcast. It's a show unlike anything you've previously seen on television. Just this explosion of creativity and honesty and vulnerability, all wrapped in sort of a talk show format. It really defies description, honestly, as it is truly as unique as the man himself. Unofficially, I guess what I want to say is that if you know much of anything about this guy,

• 4:58Rich Roll?

  you know that most of the conversations that swirl around David tend to revolve around his wealth. He took stock instead of cash for murals he painted on the walls of Facebook back in the early days that would later enrich him to the tune of $200 million, as well as countless wild stories about his many adventures and escapades and public scandals and the like. But honestly, I'm less interested in all of that. It's all very well documented at this point. And much more interested in who Dave is today, because it has been such a crazy journey for this guy, because exploring how he has grown and matured is, I think, by far,

• 5:41Rich Roll?

  the most interesting aspect of this already very interesting guy. And a way for us together to be of maximum service to you and to the person out there who is currently suffering. So, again, if you're already familiar with David, you know he is a wildly charismatic and entertaining individual. But I think you might be surprised by today's conversation, which is qualitatively different. In many ways, David is perhaps you have never before seen him. It's a conversation very focused on things like mental health, childhood trauma, the many perils of addiction, identity, sobriety, creativity, and more broadly, this journey that he's been on towards self-acceptance and self-love.

• 6:29Rich Roll?

  David is one of the few brave souls who can shine a flashlight on the darkest places of his soul. It's a rare authenticity that not only makes my job as a conversationalist easier, but also somehow gives myself and others and all of you the green light to do the same. In other words, David invites and holds space for myself, for you, for all of us, to match his authenticity. I adore this conversation. It really is nothing short of magical, and I hope that you find it helpful, especially if you're one of the many who is struggling or suffering right now.

• 7:12Rich Roll?

  Lastly, if this is your first rendezvous with David, this is not one for the kiddos years. Explicits are definitely dropped, and thus you have been forewarned. And I think that's just about all I want to say about what's to come. So without further ado, please enjoy what I think is a very meaningful and deeply heart-centered conversation with the colorful cultural disruptor himself, the singular David Cho. It's really nice to meet you, man. Nice to meet you, too. I've been looking forward to this for a while. And as somebody who's kind of followed your trajectory, your arc for a while, just delighted that you would agree to come here.

• 7:55Rich Roll?

  I have to say, I was really surprised when you DM'd me because I was saying stuff about, you know, the show and you on the podcast. And when you reached out, I was like thrilled. So I'm excited to talk to you. And typically with these things, like I do a ton of research and I come like loaded to bear with all these questions. And in thinking about like how to approach this with you, like I honestly like, I was like, I can go down some crazy rabbit hole and learn everything I can possibly learn about what you've shared publicly. But, you know, I really just want to be present with you. Like, I want to do a little bit of what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now. And I guess I'm really interested in like this growth trajectory that you've been on.

• 8:38Rich Roll?

  I think it's really fascinating. It's impressive. I think there's so much wisdom to be mined that could be helpful to other people because it's been a fucking journey, man, that you've been on.

• 8:50David Choe?

  Yeah, well, I guess I should start with full disclosure. I don't have social media, so the person who DM'd you was was my assistant.

• 9:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, all right. Fair enough, man. I appreciate the honesty.

• 9:04David Choe?

  Well, you know, like, I am aware that I have a social media presence, but it's it's not me like that.

• 9:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, is that for self-preservation?

• 9:13David Choe?

  Oh, absolutely.

• 9:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 9:14David Choe?

  It's the it's it has added, you know, I can't sit here and say it's added nothing to my life because it's I use it as a promotional tool and get get my message out, but negative feedback and especially positive feedback doesn't help me, you know, so I I have a child blocked phone. So I I don't have access to those things. So if I want to write something or reach out to someone, I send it to my assistant and he reaches out and I appreciate, you know, in in my days where I did do podcasts, I would do the same. I would I would do as much homework and be as prepared as possible. And I just, I I don't know if you can tell, but like, I'm very intimidated to be here.

• 9:59Rich Roll?

  Oh, you shouldn't be, dude. You shouldn't be.

• 10:03David Choe?

  I am, and I'll tell you why.

• 10:04Rich Roll?

  But you see, I will say you seem really like chill and grounded, like not the maniacal. Yeah, like the maniacal, like, high-energy, like, high-wire rack dude that, like, we're kind of accustomed to.

• 10:15David Choe?

  Um, I meditated in the IHOP parking lot before I came here and for about thirty minutes. And, you know, when I do these things, I don't do them very often anymore.

• 10:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:28David Choe?

  I never know how deep I'm gonna go, so my brain marks where all the fast food places are. So I know getting off the freeway, I know I saw the Burger King, the McDonald's, the Jack in the Box, IHOP. And I go, I don't know what's gonna happen with Rich today, but depending on what happens, my brain has already planned my how I'm gonna get high at the end of this, which is, you know, the fries at McDonald's, two tacos from Jack in the Box. And, you know, I'm not an athlete, you know, and as I get older, I try to stay in shape and, you know, doing a very poor job of it. And when I meet someone who's like a marathon runner, and in your case, like,

• 11:13David Choe?

  I don't even know what you call the things you do, like ultra, mega, you know.

• 11:19David Choe?

  I don't, I quit. Anytime I have a trainer or, and they push me too hard and I start to feel the burn or I feel something, I go, I don't feel good right now. Like my body doesn't like this, I feel like I'm gonna puke right now and then I just stop. So when I find someone or meet someone who's capable of running hundreds and of miles and all these things, there's two things. One side of it is inspirational, wow, the human body. And then the other side is, wow, if this guy's capable of this, I mean, he's capable of, like, it's, he's probably a psychopath.

• 11:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but so much of that, like, I get uncomfortable hearing that because so much of it is projection. And I get this a lot when I go out in the world and perhaps you can relate to your version of it, which is, oh, did you just run 20 miles? Or you could have run here from your home. And like, in my mind, I think if they only knew like the reality of it or how I think of myself. Because the truth is, right now, I'm not doing that. Like, I'm doing podcasts and I'm traveling and I'm raising teenagers and I got a lot of obligations and now I got this studio and I have people that work for me. So there's this, you know, past that I have that's somewhat current of being an athlete and that's true. I don't dismiss that.

• 12:35Rich Roll?

  I honor that and I'm, I'm grateful when people recognize that, but at the same time, that's not the reality of how I'm living right now. And so it lands kind of undeserved and the fact that it would make you uncomfortable is preposterous. And so I would say to you in the same way, like, oh my God, this like, this like incredible artist is coming here and he's like so full of life and creativity and, and he's such an incredible storyteller and I'm nervous, like, what am I gonna say to this guy that, you know, like, like, how am I gonna help make this interesting for other people? So, a lot of that is just being human. And I think it's also, you know, one thing that we share is just a history with addiction.

• 13:18Rich Roll?

  You know, I've been in recovery for a long time and I like struggle with just emotional sobriety every single day and like, trying to put a lid on my character defects and the negative kind of loops that, you know, play out in my head of unworthiness and undeservedness and all of that kind of stuff that, you know, is maddening.

• 13:40David Choe?

  I guess when I hear you say that, my version of that would be, I remember I went to an art school in Oakland, they changed the name, but it used to be called California College of Arts and Crafts. And I was so nervous the first day, and I was like, this is, this is where all the people that can really draw, and my background was illustration and comics. So you know, I'd tweak out and just draw and draw. So I'm like, this is, I was known as the kid that can draw in my class. So I'm like, this is where that kid from every school is coming here. So it's the test of the best. And I remember I had this illustration teacher, Vince Perez, and it was the first, first day of class, and we got our first assignment. So I didn't sleep for that whole week. And I, and, and when I joined, when

• 14:23David Choe?

  I, when I presented my assignment, two kids, and I remember their names, I won't say it, you know, quit the class. Cause they were like, you know, if there's people doing stuff like this, that I'll never live up to this, you know? And, and they quit. And that gave me at that time, so much joy. I was like, and, and, and then later in life, you know, the way all my addictions manifested with the one, the one main addiction where you can hide in plain sight. And no one, no one will say anything. In fact, they'll pat you on the back and say, good job is workaholism. So about seven years ago, when I was, you know, I started to do stand up, I was having art shows, selling paintings for, you know,

• 15:07David Choe?

  millions of dollars, professional gambling, I had my own podcast, I started doing the news for Vice, and you know, we won an Emmy that year that I joined. You know, I was, I was sleeping with multiple women in a day. I had the highest score on Angry Birds at the time. So it was just like, I, I had to, and I remember joining my first like self-help group thing. And you know, I'm, most of the guys are older than me, and they're titans of industry. And it was just, I walked in with a less than attitude. And, and when I heard like, oh, I started this company, I did this, I had to, I had to show you like, oh, you're, you're a workaholic. Let me, let me, like, I don't sleep. I don't do drugs,

• 15:49David Choe?

  I don't do this. And look at all these things, like, whatever you did, I did a thousand times more. So you're less than me, I'm more than you. And

• 16:00David Choe?

  And today, I don't, like, that was such a reactive way to live life, you know?

• 16:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 16:06David Choe?

  It's like, you do this, then I do this, and I gotta, it was like a, it's like a game.

• 16:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 16:10David Choe?

  It's like a war.

• 16:11Rich Roll?

  It's all, it's all competition. I mean, I've heard you talk about how you, from an early age, like, approached your art from a competitive place, like, I don't do sports, this is my sport, how can I outwork everybody? And, and, you know, behind all of that, of course, is this, like, compulsion or drive to be seen, to be recognized, that derives out of, you know, the, the sense of abandonment from when you were younger, and all the kind of, like, trauma that, that, um, that you experienced. And it is something that society, you know, our society smiles upon.

• 16:48David Choe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:48Rich Roll?

  And with that, like, comes the creation of the ego, right? Which is the beast.

• 16:52David Choe?

  Right, right.

• 16:53Rich Roll?

  You know, as society's approving of you, and you become more and more successful, and, and your self-will gets attached to that, like, I did this, I'm the one behind this. It becomes like, something that becomes really unmanageable, and it's not until it's too late that you even are, like, in a place where you can reckon with it.

• 17:15David Choe?

  Yeah. I, I tell myself all these stories, you know, there's a story, like, that I tell myself in my head of, like, who I am, and then there's stories I tell on podcasts, or write in books, and then, you know, like, that's a narrative that I've been telling myself for a long time, and is it, is it true?

• 17:31Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:32David Choe?

  Or is that just how, you know, is that my edit?

• 17:34Rich Roll?

  Right, you've told it so many times, and you know it's gonna get a reaction.

• 17:37David Choe?

  Right.

• 17:38Rich Roll?

  And your memory is really of the telling of the story, and not of what actually happened.

• 17:42David Choe?

  And my memory's horrible. My, my memory's very inaccurate, and it's horrible. And I just remember, um...

• 17:50David Choe?

  I remember being in so much pain, like it was, it's both, right? I tend to be very binary and life's awesome or life's the worst, but it was both. You know, I remember having a very happy childhood at the same time, being in like just a lot of anxiety and pain all the time. And, and I got tired of people telling me I was such a good artist. You know, like sometime in high school, like when I was 13, 14, 15, around that age. And I was, um, you know, growing up in Los Angeles, I was, I was introduced to graffiti, you know, but you know, I didn't know this at the time, but graffiti has a lot of rules. There's a lot of structure.

• 18:32David Choe?

  There's like this, this neighborhood you can't paint in and these kind of letters and you know, and I'm like, I didn't, I don't want to be a vandal so I could follow more rules, you know?

• 18:40Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, it's ironic.

• 18:43David Choe?

  You know the band Soundgarden?

• 18:44Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:45David Choe?

  So in the trifecta of grunge, right there, it's usually Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and then Soundgarden's third. And so I, I, I used to listen to more, uh, it's probably say Nirvana, but then there's a song, um, Slaves and Bulldozers, which is like a really long, it's like seven or nine minute song. And it's, um, Chris Cornell sings in like every single octave in that song. You know, he's like the lowest. And I would just, I remember being at my house and playing it as loud as possible. I had my headphones and I, I had it on a, I think I had it on cassette or, or CD and I would just listen to it over and over. And I would start, um, getting myself hyped up for going out to do graffiti and I wasn't

• 19:30David Choe?

  part of a gang or a crew or anything. It was just me and some spray paint that I stole. And, um, I would just listen to that song and there's, there's a lyric in the song where he goes, "Now I know why you've been shaking." And I, I didn't, I didn't know, you know, I was 15, I didn't know what that meant, but I just, I loved that line and I would sing it back with them. And then I would start punching myself in the face, soft at first, and then like, I just, I was so, um,

• 20:00David Choe?

  Like I said, my background is drawing like, you know, drawings and like in a sketchbook like, you know, it's like this. Mm hmm. I don't, you know, it's very, it's my world. I draw in my sketchbook and then I close it. The idea of going outside and painting something big that could be judged that people would see me, it gave me a lot of anxiety. So this is the way I would get myself hyped up and then, and then I would start like, what if, what if another gang sees me, you know, drawing over their stuff? Or what if the police chase me? Or what if, you know, like there's all these what ifs? So I would be, be like, there's nothing you can do to me that I can't do to myself.

• 20:41David Choe?

  I'll hurt myself first. I'll get myself, you know, so I'd, I'd, um, I'd get myself hyped up. I'd, I'd, I'd already like, um, get some adrenaline going just from like hitting myself. And, and then I would go out and then I'd get out there and I, I just, I had no idea on how to paint using a spray can. Like it's one thing to use a brush and a pencil. And so I'd get out there and I'd, I'd, I'd freeze. I'd be like, I don't, I don't know what to do. And then I would just, I just started writing my name, David Cho. Like, and it wasn't a tag. It wasn't like my alter ego. And I would just start writing it and I would, um, I would like right next to it, I'd draw like a cute whale.

• 21:25David Choe?

  And it was almost like prompting the police, like, come, come get me, you know? But I also knew. Like on some unconscious level, like a cry for help, even at that early age, right? Exactly. Yeah. And that cry just gets louder and louder and louder as your life gets bigger. It got very loud. Yeah. You know, it got very loud and, um,

• 21:45David Choe?

  you know, and, and I was thinking about that recently with, um,

• 21:51David Choe?

  you know, watching these people, um, in Afghanistan, like run onto the tarmac and jump on the, on the airplanes while they're taking off and like falling to their death. And one of my character defects I've developed over my entire life is I have to be first in line. You know, I know how to cut. I know how to lie, steal, manipulate. I know, I know how to do anything that I need to do so that I don't have to wait in line. Like if we're at Magic Mountain Disneyland at the airport, I know what to say, what to, I, I know every trick in the book. And, um,

• 22:28David Choe?

  You know, like when I'm with my friends, when I'm with my wife, they say, "Why you gotta do that, man?" Like, what, do you gotta get somewhere? Are you in a hurry? Like, and it's, um, I grew up with the stories of my family escaping from Korea, right? Like, you're waiting in line to get on the boat to get away from the Japanese. And so I wasn't, I wasn't there. That never happened to me. That's a story from my grandparents, from my aunts, my uncles, telling me these like horrendous stories. And so I grow up with this imagined thing that may or may not happen one day, right? Like, it's like, one day, there's gonna be a tank that turns the corner.

• 23:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:10David Choe?

  And you better be the first on that boat. And when you get there to that line, you better claw, kick, scream, you better do anything. So.

• 23:20Rich Roll?

  Cause your life depends on it. It's almost like there's an epigenetic thing. Like, that's imprinted on your DNA and it gets passed down. So even though you didn't suffer that trauma, it's like part of who you are, something that's triggered in you.

• 23:30David Choe?

  Exactly.

• 23:31Rich Roll?

  Whenever you're in a line. But I think even on top of that, there's that like varnish or like veneer of, of, of, of the addict and the addict's entitlement. Like, don't you know who I think I am? Like, I deserve to be at the front of the line. Is that part of that piece also?

• 23:50David Choe?

  I feel so good right now, talking to you, like, listening to you talk. Cause it's like, um, you know, something you said at the beginning of,

• 24:00David Choe?

  like, if I'm going on Howard Stern or like, I always feel like I have to over explain stuff or maybe talk over, like, you know, like, I'm, I'm in the world of recovery, which is not sexy. And I don't, for the most part, like talking about it because I don't ever wanna explain to someone what a gambling addict is. Well, that's a real addiction. Like, so I, um, kinda overcompensate and go into like storytelling or like, um,

• 24:29David Choe?

  Like a cartoon character projection of what I think I am to people. And like, I feel good right now.

• 24:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you don't have to do that.

• 24:38David Choe?

  And you're like.

• 24:38Rich Roll?

  Well, it's that thing that you learn, like, people that are really funny, who are addicts, like, learn, it becomes a defense mechanism or a coping mechanism. They can hide behind the joke. You know that you're an unbelievable storyteller. So you can always pull out that card when you need to and get the approval. Or, you know, if you're Steve-O, you can do some crazy stunt, you know, and get the attention that you need. But it's really ultimately a deflection because you're protecting that, like, inner child that is wounded or afraid of speaking their truth.

• 25:13David Choe?

  Yeah, and, you know, since you bring up Steve-O, I had dinner with him about two weeks ago. And, you know, he was on my show and I know him casually. I've met with him, like.

• 25:27Rich Roll?

  He's a friend of mine.

• 25:28David Choe?

  Okay.

• 25:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:29David Choe?

  So I don't know him too well. So having dinner without a camera on, it was nice to get to know him. And I don't think he would mind me saying this, but even though he's not a dad, he's got a lot of dad, he's like a dad, like, very concerned about, like, climate change and like the stimulus package. And he's just like concerned, and I'm, and I'm sitting there going, oh, like, he's making all these good points. And I'm like, wait, what do you care? Like, you jump in a shark, like, any day, like, every single stunt you do, you could die. And you're caring about, like, what the, you know, future of the world, you know? And, and he said, hey, you know, I don't think I was ever an adrenaline junkie, you know?

• 26:14David Choe?

  I just, he's like, the way his addictions manifested itself. And, and he would tell you this is, he's an attention whore, right? He's like, all of it is so, and I go, have you ever?

• 26:27David Choe?

  You know, would you ever do a stunt or something and not broadcast it for TV? Or, you know, like, would you do it just, just for yourself, just to be like, I would? Um, and I had actually had this conversation with Rainn Wilson also. It's like, everything I've ever done, that's, you know, performative, i- it is a performance. It's for someone else. You know, if, it's almost like, if it's not filmed, then it's like it never happened. Right. And that's something that I really struggled with because my final art show was in, in Beverly Hills on Rodeo in 2009. And, um, I was still checked out at that time, you know?

• 27:12David Choe?

  And it was, um, my, my gallerist, um, Steve Lazaridis is, you know, he was the same, same guy that represented Banksy and, um, he's just like, he's from London. He's like, where do you want to do your next show, Dave? And I was like, it has to be in LA. It has to be on the most expensive, you know, the most, like, right in Rodeo Drive and, you know, lights, camera, action, you know, I want every celebrity there. And it was just all like, I had to show, you know, everyone, like, I was enough. And I was, not, not, I wasn't even enough, I was better than you, you know? Yeah. And... How'd that work out?

• 27:53David Choe?

  I, I just sat there and I, and I, you know, they're, they're telling me how much the, you know, you sold out your show and the whole thing. And, and by that point, um, you know, my name was starting to be in conversations with, like, Damien Hirst and Murakami and, you know, all these. And, um, and I got to meet some of these people. And I was like, that, you know, they're nice guys, whatever, but I'm like, I don't, I don't ever want to be these people. You know, I don't want to like, you know, usually when you get to that stage and you have a factory and then you have other people painting your stuff for, you know, and then you can sell stuff, you know, and it's just, it's just... Right. There's, there's never, it's never enough. It's just more and more and more. And, and I sat there and I just kind of said to myself, um...

• 28:42David Choe?

  I don't wanna sell my art anymore. You know, like, I, I don't, you know, and it goes against everything of how I was raised and like survival and getting to the front of the line. I just said, it's enough. I've literally made enough money in my life. I can, you know, I don't ever have to work again, which is,

• 29:02David Choe?

  every time I've said that out loud is such a, it's abstract. It's abstract to say, I'll go one step further. I never have to move again. I never have, like, I never have to move again. Like, I can hire someone to just push me around, like, the total addict side of me that wants to, like, have zero responsibilities and accountability. I can literally buy a humongous house and have just someone wheel me around and just all the food and video games and, you know, all my human desires and needs can just come right to my door and I don't have to do anything again. And if I start thinking about that, it, it messes me up, cuz that's not the life I want, you know?

• 29:47Rich Roll?

  Right, but you had to, you had to, you know, have an experiential adventure with all of that to arrive at that place. Like, you had to dip your toe into every conceivable indulgence.

• 30:00David Choe?

  But that's the thing, as, as, as a human, as a man, like, you know, I knew, I had people in my life that knew better and they were like, they, you know, they told me, they're like, the writing's on the wall, like, this doesn't end well for you. And yet, I had to be like, but let me see for myself. And the ego goes, well, it didn't work out for you.

• 30:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 30:21David Choe?

  And even though you're smarter, you know, more powerful, more better looking, more everything than me, like, that's how it worked out for you. For me, it'll be different. And to have more and more and more people tell me, I still had to see for myself. And I'm not, I'm not that way today. If someone's like, hey, that's not a good idea, I go, okay, I'm over it. So, I, um, I pulled the plug on the, the commerce side of my, my art business, cuz I went back to,

• 30:51David Choe?

  There's so much, there's so much when you tell someone, or when I tell myself I want to be an artist, right? It's not like I just sit down and I start painting. It's what is this for? Is this for a gallery? Is this for, you know, a children's storybook? Is this, um, how much am I going to sell it for? Like, you know, there's so much stuff that comes with it. And when I, when I paint with kids, I do a lot of murals with like at-risk youth and stuff. There's none of that, right? As adults, we need a lot of explanation. We need a lot of handholding. We need a lot of, um, what, what is this for? And, you know, there's so many questions. And then like with kids, when I say I teach them, it's, it's, I just put the, I just put the tools out.

• 31:36Rich Roll?

  You're giving them permission.

• 31:37David Choe?

  Yeah, I just put the tools out and then they just, I don't even.

• 31:39Rich Roll?

  Expression in its purest form. So stepping outside of the commerce piece.

• 31:44David Choe?

  Yeah.

• 31:45Rich Roll?

  Uh, you know, provides that opportunity for you to reframe your relationship with your art, where it can be just about pure creative expression and you being motivated only by this sense of having something you want to say and saying it for no other reason.

• 32:01David Choe?

  Right, which is, it's hard.

• 32:03Rich Roll?

  Which is the best, that's, that's, if you remove all those other motivations, isn't that going to produce the best art anyway? Or the purest art?

• 32:11David Choe?

  But you said the word permission, which is, I think is huge because there was an art barn at, at the first rehab I ever went to. And for me, they're like, this is your life. So I was actually banned from the art barn. They're like, this is.

• 32:27Rich Roll?

  You're the only guy who can't, can't do that.

• 32:29David Choe?

  They're like, this is your escape. So you're not, like, you gotta go do something else. But I remember peeking my head in there and, you know, it was, it was a really expensive rehab. So everyone in there is like a multimillionaire or billionaire. And, um, there was a guy in there who's, you know, you could argue is one of the most powerful people on the planet. And he was asking permission if he could use like the glitter, you know, they were all using normal paint, but then there was like a, a glitter section. And he's like, can I use the glitter? And I was like, motherfucker, you can buy this place. You can buy this place? You could build your own? Like, and I go, that guy had to ask permission? And then I, I just go back, you know, because for kids, like young kids, they just do, they just do

• 33:13David Choe?

  life, right? They just live life. And I think about how many things in my life.

• 33:20David Choe?

  Is this okay? Yeah. Is it, can I, you know, like, there's so much, oh, I'm sorry, am I allowed to, you know? And, and, and for me,

• 33:31David Choe?

  it's cause, um, you know, I was talking to Paco, the filmmaker, uh, who, who did the show with me, he, he literally flew in, uh, from the Philippines yesterday. Crashed out at my house right now, and I talked to him at dinner last night about, um, um, pogs. And, um, they're those like little cardboard, you know, things that, that you, you know, I, I never played it, but I guess you, you play it and then you win someone else's pogs, so. Um, his, his father was, was a, he worked at Pepsi in the Philippines. And he, and Paco was playing with Coca-Cola pogs. And he was, you know, it was a skill that he had to, to win other kids' pogs and

• 34:15David Choe?

  at the end of the day, he had a stack, you know, he had a, and he was so proud of this thing that he had done.

• 34:22David Choe?

  And his dad comes home and he sees the Coca-Cola logo. And then he said, like, like a movie had just started raining in Manila. And it started turning into a typhoon and his dad took all his pogs and he's like, dad, what are you doing? Like, those are mine. And he threw him into the typhoon. And this is something that happened at his, I don't know how old he was, seven, eight, and so,

• 34:45David Choe?

  um, you know, and my version of that is, you know, in Koreatown, my dad's friend, you know, this is in the eighties, early eighties, when Koreatown was much smaller.

• 34:58David Choe?

  Um, his friend had opened a seafood restaurant and like the way things worked with Korean immigrants is, uh, without getting too into it, it's like they would like loan each other money to start businesses. It was like support, like you start your business and we come support you and, and so I remember dad in the car there going like, let me order. Cause we didn't eat out that often, cause we didn't have that much money. And I know he was gonna get like the, the friends and family discount, but he was like, let me order because seafood can be expensive, you know? And, um,

• 35:31David Choe?

  I remember going, you know, going, okay, cool. And we went there and it was, I think it was my first time like at a real restaurant and I must have been six or seven, not like McDonald's or something. And I remember his friend, you know, he was charming and he came with his thing and he's like, and you little man, what do you want? You know? And there was a lobster tank and he's like, the lobster's fresh today, you know, like, and I, I didn't have a, I never had an adult asking me what I want, you know? So I'm like, that, I'll have that. And I could, I could just feel my dad glaring down at me, you know, just like, and um, so then he took everyone's order and then as soon as he left, my dad's like, do you know how much a, a fresh lobster costs? You know? And, and then, you know, my brothers jumped in, you know?

• 36:16David Choe?

  They're like, stupid David, like, you, dad said he's gonna order now, now we, you know? So I'm like, um, you want me to get him? Like, should we change the, he's like, you know, no, then we're gonna sound like we're poor and, you know, so the, this shame. I'm telling you a story about a lobster meal, you know? So then the lobster comes, I can't even enjoy it, right? Does it taste good? You know, I'm like, I, I, guys, I don't want it now, like, you guys have been yelling at me, he's like, no, we're gonna sit here till you finish eating that. And I, so I'm like crying, eating this lobster tail.

• 36:53David Choe?

  You know, cut to 20 years later, like, I'm gambling millions of dollars in Las Vegas, um, having lobsters sent up to the room, I have prostitutes in the room and I don't even eat the lobsters. You know, I just check into every penthouse suite in Vegas, first thing I do when I, when I check in is, two lobsters. And they're like, are you gonna eat it now or you wanna, and I go, just send them up to the room. So there's rotting lobsters in every penthouse in Vegas and I don't even eat it, it's just like a fuck you to my dad, you know, like, and I didn't even put that together till I was in therapy and part of the problem is, what did I just tell you about? Pogs and lobster? And I get into treatment and there's people there that have been, you know, seen their

• 37:37David Choe?

  family murdered in front of them, they've, you know, so then I make it a competition. This guy just told me his family was murdered, like in front of him in Cambodia. And now he's here and I'm gonna bring up a story about ordering too much lobster at dinner. So I don't speak up for myself. So I suppress it, I push it down, I go, dude, big deal. I say big deal, but then it manifests in like these, it comes out sideways in all these strange ways. And

• 38:06Rich Roll?

  We all have our version of that.

• 38:07David Choe?

  Do I have permission?

• 38:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:09David Choe?

  That's what it comes down to. Do I have permission to forgive myself? Do I have permission to forgive my dad? Do I have permission to eat lobster now without all this guilt and shame? Do I have? And, and um, the answer in most cases of the people that I've been talking to is no. So it comes out in workaholism. It comes out in like, basically saying, I am not allowed to ask for permission for what my needs are. Because I'll be rejected, I'll get yelled at. And so it's like living with this ghost of, and you know, if you met my dad today, he's like the sweetest guy.

• 38:50David Choe?

  So, you know, in the same way, I go, uh, you know, he was an immigrant and he had three kids and he didn't have any money. So I make, I make the excuse for him, you know?

• 39:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:04David Choe?

  Instead of just being like.

• 39:05Rich Roll?

  But the trauma is what it is and it doesn't matter. The, the, you know, the motivations behind your parents, you know, all our parents on some level were doing the best that they could with the debt that they were dealt. It's that gabar mate thing of emotional trauma, childhood trauma, like laying the foundation for these errant behaviors and the addictions that follow. We can always trace it back to something that in most cases, you know, for a lot of people, it's like their parents, I'm sure your dad doesn't even remember that.

• 39:33David Choe?

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:33Rich Roll?

  It's like it was a meaningless thing in the moment and yet it gets locked in, in your psyche and becomes this, you know, latent like pernicious seed that, that germinates over time and manifests in all kinds of craziness later on. We all have some version of that and that guilt and shame that we feel because our pain isn't as grandiose as somebody else's. Our pain is our pain, man. You know, it's like it's not, there's no measuring stick to compare that.

• 40:01David Choe?

  Yeah, the way was explained to me is everyone's pain is maximum to them. So when I'm being shamed for ordering incorrectly, I'm not thinking, oh, there's a kid down the street getting beat up by his dad. I'm just thinking in that moment, this is happening to me and it gets locked in forever.

• 40:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 40:27David Choe?

  I'm wondering, I don't know too much of your stories that, you know, once again, I don't wanna, the joke with running, anyone who's a runner is like, hey, so what are you running from?

• 40:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, sure, of course. Yeah, I mean, it's all about your relationship to it. Like, in many ways, I can look at my, you know, career as an athlete and make a checklist of all the ways in which it's improved my life. But I think I would be dishonest if I didn't say that there's some addictive compulsion that attracted me to pushing myself in that way. It's like this place that you can go where you'll be celebrated for going further, longer, harder than anyone else and nobody's gonna bat an eye. So, so there is, there is like, you know, an addict piece with that, that, you know, I'm sure there's ramifications for, you know, my involvement in that. Overall, I think it was a good thing.

• 41:21Rich Roll?

  And I've, I had, I had put enough work into myself at that point where I could like, keep, you know, keep it from getting too out of control. But if you go to any ultra marathon, like, you know, probably 70% of the people there are in recovery and covered in tattoos. It's like, it's, it's like, it's like those little lights that attract the bugs, you know? It's one of those kinds of things.

• 41:42David Choe?

  So who was it for you? Was it mostly mom or dad?

• 41:47Rich Roll?

  I think it was a little bit of both. I mean, it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a household of high expectations being set that I could never quite meet. And my relationship with my parents is, is good now, like especially with my dad. We've gone through a lot. So it's not about blaming them or them being bad people.

• 42:06David Choe?

  Oh, no, I don't think it's about that. It's just if I try to have this conversation with my parents, they'll instantly go to that. They'll be like, oh, like, why are you trying to make me look? I go, it's not about that. Cause I love my parents and I think they're great people. It's just, um, I got really, really defensive when I was in treatment because my dad kicked the shit out of me one time, one time. So in my mind, I deleted that memory. And I said, um, dude, there's people out there that have like the most of my, my dad sings me songs to sleep. He takes me on trips. He's great. One day he had a bad day. I don't know what happened at work. I don't, but one day he did that. And so the, of course, the treatment team focuses on that. I'm like, what's, why are you guys

• 42:51David Choe?

  trying to turn me against my dad? Like, why are you trying to get me to? And they're like, well, that did something. That one day did something to you. And it's not about blaming them or it's just addressing it, you know, cause this is this wound that's open. Let's just address it. And then, and then we can move on from it. We don't have to just sit there and, and blame this thing forever, you know? And, um, you said this thing right now, if, if, if you're open to, you know, I heard you describing, um, you know, all the sides of, uh, the, the emotions that come with ultra marathon running. And it's, uh, bringing something up in me when I was doing podcasting. Um, so what part of this podcast is not healthy for your recovery?

• 43:38Rich Roll?

  I mean, there's a workaholism piece to it, you know? It's a lot more work, as you know, somebody's done it than I think people realize. There's a competitive piece to it. Like, you know, I want it to be as good as it can be. I want these experiences to be as helpful to other people as I can possibly craft them. And it's that tension between self-will. Like, I know if I put a lot into it, it can be better. And also, what I've learned from recovery, which is I have to allow it what it wants to be. Like, I have to surrender to it. And it's actually better the looser that I hold it. And I'm always waging this war with myself over that. But there's certainly a workaholism piece. Can I do more? Who else can I get? Why is that person getting that person?

• 44:23Rich Roll?

  And why can't I do that? Or why, you know, like, I buy into a lot of that. Like, that's a lot of my character defects. And I can hide behind that. And while the podcast is successful, I get applauded for it. In the way that, you know, in a minimal way, you know, in comparison to kind of like what happened with you and just being celebrated. I mean, I remember when you, you know, way back when you were doing that podcast, DVD essay, I mean, it was insane, dude. I was, I would tap into it occasionally and just be like, this guy's so fucking out of his mind, you know? Like, I just can't, I was like, I can't, I'd hear you on Rogan and I would check out the podcast. And I was like, this guy is on a crash course with disaster. I don't know what the timeline is here, but...

• 45:07David Choe?

  I remember doing Howard Stern and then after the interview, him taking me off to the side and he's like, you're wild, man. Like, this is, this doesn't, you know, like, you better tuck it back a little, like. And to have my hero, Howard Stern, say, I'm out of control, was like the greatest compliment he could ever gave me. And I remember that time. And everything you just said resonated with me. That's why I'm curious is...

• 45:33David Choe?

  You know, you could call it my delusion or my aspirations at that time was I'm gonna be bigger than Howard. I'm gonna be bigger than Joe Rogan and my workaholics was at its all time high. I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna trick Sasha Baron Cohen out to being my show. Cause he wants to buy an art, you know, like he was looking at paintings, but then I said, go, go in that door over there and like we were recording live like.

• 45:55Rich Roll?

  Like a reverse punk.

• 45:56David Choe?

  Yeah, like guests I couldn't get, I would try to use my art like every day I was sitting there and uh my mistake was, I don't know if it's mistake, everything I guess happened the way I needed to, but when I paint, I can do anything I want. It's not literal, right? Like I can paint an abstract painting, a fantasy painting, you know, some sci-fi, anything. It doesn't, you don't have to take it literally. I just paint and I, and I have that freedom as an artist to just paint whatever. And I brought all that energy into uh my podcast. I was like, I wanna use words like pigments, like paint. I can, you know, I'll tell a story, but I'll exaggerate this part. I'll edit out this part. And this great thing that I heard from this other guest, I'll make it like it was my story.

• 46:38David Choe?

  And every day it was a, how can I, you know, and a bit of like just reactive like um, you know, Asians are supposed to be like meek and you know, you know, your podcast should be about math or some, you know, something like that. And so I, I, there was a lot of, I need to show that Asians can also be crazy and not just crazy, but the craziest. And so just um, sitting there and going, how inappropriate can I make this podcast? How insane can I make it? And then the, and, and then, you know, once in a while, you know, teaching some of the, the positive things that I, that I learned in life and getting, you know, hundreds. And then, and then at some point, thousands of people saying, I look forward to your podcast, you know, I'm sure you can get this.

• 47:23David Choe?

  You're inspirational, you did it, you turned your life around, you got all these things and um. And getting almost like this kind of Messiah guru complex of like, I'm helping people. This podcast is helping people. At the cost of myself, some martyr shit, but it's okay. I can take it. I can, I can take this. A lot of people can't take it. I'll hurt myself so that other people can be entertained, so other people can learn from my mistakes. And I'll sacrifice myself at this altar. And in the same way that I walked away from painting, I just said, this isn't, I'm gonna die doing this. Like, I'm literally gonna die doing this. So I stopped podcasting.

• 48:03Rich Roll?

  It was pretty abrupt, too. Like, you just stopped uploading.

• 48:07David Choe?

  Yeah, I was just, I just sat in a room one day and the podcasts were so, I just, I just, you know, the ones that I had played for my friends in the same way.

• 48:28David Choe?

  Like, I like it when it hurts, right? Like, I imagine like, as someone who's not an ultra marathon runner, when the pain starts, it's like, okay, like, something gets activated.

• 48:38Rich Roll?

  Now, now we're on to something.

• 48:39David Choe?

  Now it's, now it's on, like, you know, people were starting to have, you know, really threatening hate mail towards me. People were writing articles, people trying to cancel me. And now it was like, oh, you thought that was bad. So then I went and I, and I, you know, I still have hundreds, if not thousands of podcasts. I lost track. And I would play them for my closest friends and they're like, you can never upload this. You literally can never, no one can ever hear this. And I go, but it's, I'm not doing anything. I'm not, I'm literally talking, using words and they're like, you're saying stuff that is like so bizarre and so offensive and so, and I go, but, like,

• 49:24David Choe?

  Like, isn't that what art is supposed to make you uncomfortable and push? And they're like, Dave, we fucking love you, man.

• 49:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 49:30David Choe?

  Don't do that.

• 49:31Rich Roll?

  There's a difference between being a provocateur and performing like a public self-immolation. Like, it was like this, on one level, like, your whole life becomes a performance art. Like, everything that you're doing is a form of media that is an expression of your interior life. But unmistakable in that was this sense of you, I mean, a cry for help is like the wrong term. Like, it was more severe than that. Like, you were, you know.

• 50:00David Choe?

  I wanted to die. I wanted to die.

• 50:02Rich Roll?

  It was clear to anybody who had any kind of, like, you know, therapeutic background, that like you were in a lot of pain. And you didn't know how to quite express that. And you were very far away from being in a place where you could actually raise your hand and ask for help. And so what you were doing was exploding your life in real time.

• 50:22David Choe?

  And I carried all the cliche. This is my problem with, like, you know, I didn't watch the latest Anthony Bourdain documentary, even though I know I'm in it, because I do want to celebrate all the positive, wonderful things he did in his life. But I also know, in our society, the story, the cliche story is, you kill yourself, you're gonna be on murals, you're gonna be memorial, you're gonna be worship, you're gonna become a demigod, people are gonna worship you. And I don't like that. And at that time, I didn't have, you know, I had very close friends that were like, there's this thing called therapy, there's things called medication, there's things you can

• 51:05David Choe?

  do, like, you don't have to suffer like this. But my handbook, which I was playing from, was, you have to be effed up to be an artist, to the best. For legacy, for transcendent. If you wanna be known, you have to be the most messed up. You have, you can't, nothing, no great art. I mean, maybe great art, but that kind of transcendent art that really touches people for generations, you have to, you have to sell your soul to the devil. Like, you have to, and, and so- Pain is the vehicle for greatness. And I, and I totally bought in. I was like, there's no one I know that's like, well-adjusted, that has like, a wonderful life, that is doing anything that's like, and that's just this, and today, I know there is, it's just, I didn't- Yeah.

• 51:50David Choe?

  I didn't believe it at the time. So, I, I believe that, and anything that would get, anything like, to go to therapy, or to start taking pills, or, or, or to start talking about my pain, would get in the way of the art. And the art is the most important. And at that time, I considered my podcast art, my pain, everything I did, I was like, that's my art, and it needs to be pure, and it can't be edited. It can never be edited. If I, if I mess up in a painting, you have to see my mess up. If I say something that I, that should be edited, like, I, I, it's just, it has, everything has to be pure. I have to show you, uh, cause everything in this society is lies, and manipulation, and the best version of things.

• 52:30David Choe?

  And I wanna show you the, the ugly, the ugliness, and, and, uh, I, I just, I, I wanted, you know, I, I, I was too cowardly to actually kill myself, but I wanted to get into some kind of situation where, you know, someone would murder me, or something would happen where I would die. I had a, I had a angina attack in a casino when I was thirty-five, so I have that heart disease. Um, and, and that was the best, because when I collapsed, I felt so much joy. I felt so much joy in the same way in those Soundgarden days, when I was doing graffiti, and like- I had nothing. I was just a punk kid writing my name, David Shaw on a wall.

• 53:15David Choe?

  And all these people were like, dude, you painted in the that gang territory. They're gonna come after you. The police are calling your house because you wrote your name. That was the happiest I was, because I was like, it's gonna end soon. My pain is gonna end soon.

• 53:27Rich Roll?

  Right, like relief from this self-created prison where self-care is at odds with what you're trying to express, which is greatness through your art, right? It is an impossibility to be a great artist and to be well, right? And the pain of walking around being like, I'm not entitled to actually take care of myself because that will threaten the very thing that I care about the most. And I think one of the most kind of interesting and impressive things about this, you know, growth trajectory that you've been on is this chapter of, that is perhaps the most courageous. Like, can you be a great artist

• 54:11Rich Roll?

  as a happy, well-adjusted, grateful, grounded human being?

• 54:15David Choe?

  Well.

• 54:16Rich Roll?

  Is that not like the ultimate challenge for an artist who's convinced that, you know, the expression is only a function of how much pain you're in?

• 54:24David Choe?

  Well, let me ask you this. Have, in your adult working life, have you ever taken a year off?

• 54:31Rich Roll?

  No.

• 54:32David Choe?

  I mean, not to get into your finances, have you made enough where you could take a year off?

• 54:37Rich Roll?

  No.

• 54:38David Choe?

  Six months?

• 54:39Rich Roll?

  Maybe.

• 54:40David Choe?

  Maybe?

• 54:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I got a bunch of kids.

• 54:42David Choe?

  Let's go with six months. So, when that was recommended to me, it was the same thing as me asking Steve-O to do a stunt and not film it, or Rain to do a performance and not have anyone see it. It was like, that, you're taking away my identity. My identity is work. Everything is for work for.

• 55:03Rich Roll?

  Approval, relevance. What happens if I stop doing the podcast? I disappear and then I don't mean anything anymore. And who am I actually?

• 55:12David Choe?

  And so, someone even called me out on the thing you just said. They were like, you know, for someone who's rebelled against everything their whole life, you're pretty close-minded and you're pretty like cowardly about this, creating art from a positive place.

• 55:30David Choe?

  Because you have all these examples to support your argument of how it, you know, look at this guy, look at, look at how messed up Picasso is and look at how, you know. And, um, so you have so many examples to support the messed up artist, you know, thing, but why can't you be the first, right? If you can't think of any examples of someone who's well adjusted, has a loving life and also a, an amazing artist, why don't you be the first? Why don't you try it?

• 55:57Rich Roll?

  And isn't that not the most punk rock thing ever?

• 55:59David Choe?

  But it doesn't feel like it because there's so little examples of that. So first thing was, you need to take a year off. And, and I was at a place with a lot of people and I was like, how come you're not asking that guy? He's like, because he's not rich.

• 56:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 56:15David Choe?

  He's like, you can, if, if everyone here can afford it, I would tell everyone here to do it. So this guy says, you're so close to death and you may or may not know it, but because you can financially afford it, I'm asking you to take one year off because your brain is on fire. Like you can't sit like.

• 56:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 56:37David Choe?

  Oh, TV show, movies, work on this and then I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna put this like, and you have so many people calling you like a genius. Oh, this guy did this and he combined this and, and you're, you're getting, um, all this, uh, praise, you know, people are offering you TV shows and that was the most offensive thing you could say to me is to take a year off. I told the guy, go fuck yourself, you know? And then he started crying and I hadn't experienced that kind of level of vulnerability before, like with a man, like I was ready to mix it up. He tells me this, I go back and we were gonna argue and I, and he goes, hey, you know, just from meeting you and how I feel of how you're coming off right now and because you can financially afford it, I'm gonna ask you to take a year off.

• 57:22David Choe?

  And I said, go fuck yourself. And then he started crying and I.

• 57:25Rich Roll?

  Who is this guy? Therapist?

• 57:27David Choe?

  Uh, his name is Patrick Carnes and he is the, known as like the, the godfather of sex addiction, you know? And, um, you know, uh, just, just for my background, I have no chemical addictions and every, um.

• 57:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so, it's so interesting. It's like the inverse of me, like I'm all about substances and, uh, and, and that's never been your thing, but what, you know, the gambling thing came in a lot earlier in your life than I, than I realized.

• 57:56David Choe?

  Well, um.

• 57:59David Choe?

  You know, when people say OCD, right? They think the lot of hand washing or when I walk, I have to step on a certain, you know? And I was like that as a young child. Like when I walked to school, I had to step on the line of the sidewalk squares. Like I couldn't stand on the square part. And then if I missed one, I had to go back and do it, you know, like I had that. And then I was like, oh, I haven't had weird hangups like that in years. And my therapist pointed out, you have the most severe case of OCD. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I don't have. They go, so for me, and all the stuff that I've learned is it helps, right? It helps for you to go, I'm an alcoholic, right?

• 58:40David Choe?

  But is that, that helps with that because you need to stop that behavior at that moment. But, you know, as you know, things, if you don't get to the core and cut it out, then um, it's whack a mole, right? It jumps. So then you become a drug addict and you stop that. Then you become a sex and love addict. Then you stop that, then you become a workaholic. And, and a lot of these things can cross over. And so for me, I was a thief. From the, from the, from the time I can remember, um, my brother showed me how to shoplift when I was uh, six or seven. I remember Star Wars figures were 99 cents at the time. And I remember uh, another instance of how I'm not enough. Um, our allowance was uh, you know, 50 cents.

• 59:23David Choe?

  So I worked two weeks so I could buy this um, Star Wars figure from the drugstore. And then I go, I have, I have a dollar, you know? So I put the thing on and the tax comes out 107 or something. And I put the money out and she's like, you don't have enough? I go, that thing's 99 cents. And she's like, there's a thing called tax. And I'm, I'm a little kid going, wait, so I can't have that? And she's like, no, you can't have it. And I'm like, oh shit, I just worked two weeks for that. And they're like, yeah, you, you need like 10 more cents. And I was like, Holy shit. And then we walk out of the store and my brother's like, I got it. And I'm like, you you work, you get fifty cents too. Where did you get the extra ten cents? He's like, oh, I just, I pulled it out of the thing. So I was like, you don't have to pay for things? And he's like, no, you just steal. You just take whatever you want.

• 1:00:08David Choe?

  And I was like, whoa, it's such a, and then of course, I grew up in a super religious family where there's these um sayings framed all over my house, do not steal. You know, and I was like, of course, I gotta steal now, you know? So I stole every single day of my life um from age eight till I was like probably in my early twenties.

• 1:00:33Rich Roll?

  Every day?

• 1:00:34David Choe?

  Every single day. And and and sometime and it was, I didn't need to steal, right? Like some of the stuff. Oh, so you're a kleptomaniac. And in my mind, I would steal a lot of food and give it to homeless people. I had a um, no one wants to think of themselves as a bad guy, right? So I would steal like some art supplies that I needed and I'm like, oh, I'm a thief. That's horrible. I don't wanna, so I have to correct that. I'm gonna go out and steal from a corporation and give to the poor. So I knew where all the homeless people in my neighborhood lived and I would go steal food and and um it took years, like that's, once again, this is a story. I'm a hero.

• 1:01:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:12David Choe?

  I steal from rich people and I give to poor people. I'm I'm a good guy, you know? And people be like, you're a thief. You're a thief. You steal. That's not good. And I'd be like.

• 1:01:22Rich Roll?

  How does that relate to OCD though?

• 1:01:24David Choe?

  Cause I had to steal every day.

• 1:01:25Rich Roll?

  Oh, I see.

• 1:01:26David Choe?

  Every single day I had to steal. Like there and then and that also was.

• 1:01:30Rich Roll?

  What would happen if you went a day without stealing?

• 1:01:33David Choe?

  This is, so it was a combination of steal and break the law. So my go to was if I was laying in bed and I was like,

• 1:01:42David Choe?

  you know, it was like anything from like stealing a kid's homework, so to copy off of or like a- a- any kind of like deviant behavior.

• 1:01:51David Choe?

  I would, this is crazy, I would have to climb out of my window, I had to break out of my own house, hop the fence and go across the street and jaywalk. And then go back inside my house just to be like I broke a jaywalk, you know? It had to be some kind of thing like that. And then um. Uh, I, you know, I got caught a bunch of times. I went to jail a bunch of times. And then I just decided one day, hey, like my mind is so strong. I'm just gonna stop cold turkey. And which I did. I've never stolen again since the day I decided I'm, I'm not gonna steal again. But then the gambling went up.

• 1:02:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:02:26David Choe?

  And at that time.

• 1:02:26Rich Roll?

  It's squeezing the water balloon.

• 1:02:28David Choe?

  Yeah. And my friend, uh, Joey, who, he was the first one of my friends who had, um, a driver's permit. He got his driver's permit. He drove to Vegas by himself and he came back and he said, um, you know, there's a place in the desert and they play games of chance and when you win, they let you keep the money. And I was like, let's go, you know?

• 1:02:49Rich Roll?

  How old were you, like 15?

• 1:02:50David Choe?

  I was 15 and we had a fake ID from, uh, Alvaro Street in, in downtown. And, you know, so we, you know, we're going to Vegas with like 20 bucks, $15 and like winning 40 bucks or six, and we were hooked. And it wasn't until years later that I realized, um, both of my family, both my mom and my dad are gambling addicts. Um, I don't know if my dad's necessarily a gambling addict, but my mom definitely is. My dad, when we were growing up, um, we didn't have a lot of money. So, um, he would go to Vegas every weekend and try to win rent money or whatever. And, and because I know my dad, he's not like, um,

• 1:03:33David Choe?

  he's a very conservative, like chill guy. He's not the guy that's like all in.

• 1:03:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, controlled gambler.

• 1:03:38David Choe?

  So I already know that kind of gambling and then like you, it's like a, you gotta kind of be bold to, to win.

• 1:03:46Rich Roll?

  Right. But you were actually pretty successful.

• 1:03:49David Choe?

  Oh, I was, I was very successful. I'd, I'd hacked the way to do that. And so, um, as a F you to my dad, I had to, you know, I made a lot more money gambling than I did in art in the beginning, you know? So.

• 1:04:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Cause I thought that the gambling stuff happened, kind of kicked in after the whole Facebook thing, but it really was before.

• 1:04:10David Choe?

  Oh, no. I mean, well.

• 1:04:11Rich Roll?

  That was full force before all of that.

• 1:04:14David Choe?

  Well, to put it into context, and you know, I know this story's been written about a lot, but, um. What are some of the homeless artists gets lucky when he, you know, and just to frame that era, everyone was on MySpace, right? Like everyone was like Facebook was like this, it wasn't a joke, but it was like this niche social media for college students. So,

• 1:04:41David Choe?

  and Sean Parker- With the Napster guy. Yeah, Sean Parker, like I had met him right after the Napster thing when they were trying to get sued for a trillion dollars. And he just was a fan of my art. And at that point, my art was starting, you know, it wasn't selling for, you know, hundreds of thousands or millions, but it was like I was a painting that had used to sell for 300, I was starting to sell for like two or 3,000, you know? So my star was starting to rise. And he wanted to get some artwork, but because he's this kid that was, you know, facing like, I don't know who was trying to sue him, like all the record labels, Metallica, whoever, he's like, you know, and he's a very confident, determined, he's like, "I will get your art

• 1:05:26David Choe?

  someday, Dave Cho." And I was like, "Cool, come up with some scratching." You know, so then he started another company, Plaxo, I don't know how it did. And then finally, when it came to Facebook, he explained this thing to me during the era of MySpace. And I'm like, "This sounds horrible. The name sounds horrible, the logo's horrible." I'm like, "Can I redo the logo?" Like, he's just like, "This thing's gonna take over the world." And I'm like, "How? How is a college social network?" You know? And, and so I had just gotten out of prison in Japan, and I owed everyone money. And- You like punched a guy at your show or something like that? Yeah, I punched under, you know, that's a whole other story I can get into, but I

• 1:06:06David Choe?

  needed a lot of money, fast. And so it was a blessing that he was like, "Hey, Dave Cho." I told you one day I'm gonna get a painting from you. We got funding from Peter at PayPal, like. And I said, okay, so he's like, so what are you charging now? And I'm like, what do you want me to paint? He's like, I want you to paint a mural on every single floor. And I was like, you know, I had never gotten a job like that. But I'm like, okay, a painting, one painting of mine selling for like five grand now. That's like multiple. So I said 60 grand. And, and if he said yes, because I know no one had ever paid me 60 grand before, you know? It's a lot of money. It's a lot of money now, right? And he's like, okay. Like he didn't even, he's like, all right, cool. We can get you that.

• 1:06:49David Choe?

  And I was like, holy shit, I'm gonna be able to pay everyone back. I'm gonna, and because I'm a gambler, he goes, or you could take stock. And that's people like, oh, he's so lucky. But it's because I was a degenerate. The appropriate.

• 1:07:06Rich Roll?

  And at the time, that was, that was a crazy bet.

• 1:07:08David Choe?

  The right thing to do would have been, yeah. The, the, the right thing to do would have been to take the money, pay back my girlfriend at the time. All my friends who paid for my lawyer in Japan, pay all my back rent. Like, that's the right thing to do. And so they're like, I remember my friends going, Facebook? Like dude, go back, get your money, you know? Um, but that's because I was a degenerate gambler. I would take my Toys R Us, you know, paycheck and go to Vegas and lose it all. And, and um, I was like, there's, there's gotta be a way to win at this. There's gotta be a way because everyone who gambles has the same story. I was winning, right? So there's always that part where they were winning.

• 1:07:53David Choe?

  And then, um, and then I lost it all. And I go, well, how can we change this story where it was like, I was winning? Period, you know? And I was like, oh, it's a vice. It's like an addiction. It's like, it's like when I hear an alcoholic say, two beers and I was good. I was the life of the party. I was buzzing. I was having a good time. So why don't you stop there? Well, because I'm an addict. Then you have another one, then you're wasted. So, um.

• 1:08:23David Choe?

  All of these things is just like, how can I win at life? How can I win at life? How can I? How can I feel good through all these things that are supposed to make you feel good? And then stop? And I go, oh. I have no self-control. I have no self. I can't stop myself. But someone else can. But that's not realistic. If I was an alcoholic, is that realistic for me to go to a bar? And pay someone to drink with me? And on my third beer when I-

• 1:08:54Rich Roll?

  Cut me off.

• 1:08:55David Choe?

  To, to, but like literally like slap the beer out of my hand? Like, is that really gonna happen? And I go, well, just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it can't happen. So I, I, I paid my friend Harry Kim to come with me to Vegas for seven years. And every time I was winning, he would physically take the money, put it in his pocket, go upstairs and lock it up.

• 1:09:16Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:17David Choe?

  And made sure I, you know, and I was like, but we were on a winning streak. Like, we could win more. And he's like, we're done. And sometimes he would have to physically drag me away from the table. And the pit bosses and, and, and all the people that worked at the casino were like, we've never seen anything like this before. We've never seen someone pay someone to stop someone. And I go, well, and you know, and all I-

• 1:09:39Rich Roll?

  Is that like technically cheating? Do they end up cutting you off because you have a system?

• 1:09:43David Choe?

  They cut me off at two casinos and then ultimately when my first, um, GA meeting, Gamblers Anonymous meeting I ever went to. Um, and I got, I got sober from gambling in Hawaii, which I chose Hawaii for my rehab because there's, that's the only state in, in America that, where there's no casinos. So there was no GA meetings there. And they said, you, you should go to AA meetings. And I go, well, I'm not an alcoholic. And they go, well, you go to the AA meeting and, um, whenever they say a drink or alcohol, just replace it with casino gambling, you know? But you can't share at those meetings, you know? Because you can only share for that particular thing.

• 1:10:26David Choe?

  And as someone who likes to talk a lot, that was really humbling to go to three, four hundred plus AA meetings that never share once and just hear everyone else's story.

• 1:10:38Rich Roll?

  And everyone's going, who's that guy? He never shares, man. That guy's got some darkness. But the flip side of the gambling addict thing is, you know, yeah, you set up this control, but part of the compulsion is that attachment to to also losing, like the anticipation.

• 1:10:57David Choe?

  Well, here, here, I'll, um, so I've been to every type of 12-step meeting. And the ones like, because I'll be in a city where, oh shit, I can't find a gamblers, overeaters, or sex and love addict, or whatever the addiction, codependence, I have.

• 1:11:17Rich Roll?

  You're Helen Bonham Carter in Fight Club or Ed Norton.

• 1:11:20David Choe?

  And they're like, oh, there's only an AA meeting, or Narcotics Anonymous, or Marijuana Anonymous. So I'll go to that meeting, even though that's not my addiction. And as I listen to thousands of people share their story, I go, oh, it's all gambling. Every addiction is gambling addiction. Every single, when you drink and you get in a car, you're like, I kind of don't care if I make it home or not, right? That's gambling. When you're like having sex and you're like, I'm not gonna wear a condom. And you're like, oh, I might have a kid, I might get AIDS, I might. That's gambling. And, and so to go to my first Gambler's Anonymous meeting after going to 400 AA meetings in Los Angeles, I was, I was shocked because

• 1:12:03David Choe?

  AA meetings and, and drug, um, NA meetings are kind of like parties in LA, right? Like, it's very social. There are bright lights.

• 1:12:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, especially in LA.

• 1:12:12David Choe?

  300 people, you know, there's celebrities, speaker, you know, it's, when you go to a, a sex addicts meeting, a gambler's addict meeting, you know, the process ones, there's more shame.

• 1:12:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:24David Choe?

  So the lights are a little lower.

• 1:12:25Rich Roll?

  It's really fucking dark.

• 1:12:26David Choe?

  There's a, yeah, it's darker. There's a lot of shares that end with suicide attempts, you know? So I went to a GA meeting and we went in a circle and every single share, it was a small meeting, it was like six people. Um, every single person shared about how they try to kill themselves. And I've said this before, it's the reason why they don't have balconies in Vegas, because if they did, there'd be someone jumping off every day. One out of four gambling addicts kills themselves. Um, so people go gambling, I don't understand. It's like, so I'm sitting at the meeting and everyone's like telling how much money they've stolen from their family or lied and manipulated people out of so that they could keep gambling, getting that one Lotto scratcher, horse rate, everything, right?

• 1:13:11David Choe?

  And I'm scared to share because it's going around the circle and it gets to me and I'm like, I just won three million dollars after my last, you know? So great. And I feel exactly the same as you. Mm hmm. You just said you broke into a car to steal a quarter so you can get the next scratcher. I'm sitting here telling you I have two rotting lobsters in my, in my hotel room. I'm having sex with all these prostitutes and gambling with millions of dollars, winning, handing like hundred dollar bills to everyone I know, and I feel exactly the same as you. So I sat there and I go, how do I feel? How did I feel when I won three million dollars

• 1:13:52David Choe?

  at the, on my last trip? Right? And I'm playing a quarter million dollar hands of blackjack in private, private rooms, you know? And at that point, I felt very little, you know? But like you win three million dollars, it feels good.

• 1:14:10David Choe?

  But not that good because I was already rich. When I lose three million dollars, and even better yet, when I lose 30 million, then that feels amazing, right? That feels amazing. So I think that was the disconnect with. Trying to talk to people in my tribe who are addicts and people who aren't addicts, right? And it doesn't matter if you're an addict or you're not an addict, because everyone knows an addict or at least has one in their family. So that's the thing when people go, "I don't, but I don't understand. Why don't you stop drinking or why don't you stop, why don't you stop the behavior?" It's like, "I wanna fucking lose, that's why. Do you get it? Do you understand now? I don't wanna win. I'm happier when I'm losing. I wanna lose everything."

• 1:14:51Rich Roll?

  But that's even harder for somebody to understand, because you're not operating on a rational plane.

• 1:14:56David Choe?

  Right.

• 1:14:56Rich Roll?

  You know, you're trying to, uh, you know, numb the discomfort of your internal pain while also seeking to feel something that will make you feel alive. And if winning's not gonna do it, losing certainly is going to.

• 1:15:10David Choe?

  To have-

• 1:15:11Rich Roll?

  And it doesn't matter what that feeling is, as long as it's a feeling different from however you feel.

• 1:15:15David Choe?

  Right. And so... Sorry, I got fired up there for a second.

• 1:15:20Rich Roll?

  Go ahead, no.

• 1:15:23David Choe?

  So that's hard to explain. That's hard to understand. Like, wait. You know, you're trying to wrap your non-addict brain around someone who's doing everything they can to run away from everything, feel numb, feel nothing, feel everything. And so, everything was off. You know, I did, I did like, these expensive brain scans to show that I had like, frontal, like, like a kind of, um, temporary brain damage from just like, complete overstimulation.

• 1:15:52Rich Roll?

  Like, yeah, your dopamine must have been completely fucked up.

• 1:15:57David Choe?

  And so, doctor's orders, take a year off. And I had to sit in that. And it's like, well...

• 1:16:06Rich Roll?

  When was that?

• 1:16:07David Choe?

  This was, um, seven years ago.

• 1:16:10Rich Roll?

  So is this like, the, the bottom?

• 1:16:13David Choe?

  I had never hit a bottom.

• 1:16:17David Choe?

  Which- You know, when I asked you about the podcast and you're like, it's good and it and and there's the the negative. So one of the things that I've I taught myself into being a successful gambler was it's the golden rule, get out while you're ahead. Right? It's like, how do you win at life? Get out what it's like. Uh, I look at a guy like Conor McGregor, like just loved and, you know, just dude, if he had just stopped like three, four fights ago, he would just be a legend forever. And now he's starting to turn into the villain. And I'm like, fuck, if he just got out while he's ahead. And I think of, you know, a lot of people like that. But you get addicted to the tension or what, you know, whatever the thing is.

• 1:16:58Rich Roll?

  If you don't and and if you don't, you know, die at 27 and become that like glorified.

• 1:17:03David Choe?

  Right. And that's what I was playing for. I was trying to die. I was like, once I hit 30, I was like, shit, it was supposed to happen before that. Now I'm 45. So um, the positives, if I'm looking at the bright side of gambling, it had taught me. I had taught myself through discipline and hard work, how to get out while I was ahead. So.

• 1:17:23Rich Roll?

  She's a very non addict thing.

• 1:17:25David Choe?

  Oh, right. And and I and I was like, man, I've been to jail.

• 1:17:31David Choe?

  Multiple times I've lost, um, you know, small fortunes. I've, you know, I had this like, I've always had this like kind of. No matter how much I try to hurt myself, there was.

• 1:17:44David Choe?

  This is what it was.

• 1:17:49David Choe?

  I've always, uh, shit, I might start crying talking about it, but um, I've always my entire life have valued.

• 1:18:07David Choe?

  Friends over everything, right? So I've learned a lot now. I have a lot of tools. I've learned a lot of things in recovery, but I've.

• 1:18:17David Choe?

  I have like the same friends that I've met when I was in third grade, you know, since I was eight years old. And I would do anything for my friends and and I know that they feel the same.

• 1:18:31David Choe?

  So I knew like girlfriends would come and go. I knew things, but I was like, what is the one thing that I must? Cause you hear stories. You're like, oh yeah, we used to be friends in college and you know, life happens and then you go. And I was like, no. Like things come and go. The one thing that has to like stay constant in my life is friendship. So I nurtured those things. I nurtured, I made sure no matter what happened in my life, I would take trips. I would call and, and, and when we say love, we usually tend to refer to romantic relationships, but for me, I was like, love. Love is for me like man love, me loving another man telling, you know, calling a guy to tell him how much I love him. And so

• 1:19:14David Choe?

  that if I didn't have that, I would be dead right now. If I didn't, I can tell you three stories right now where if I didn't have a guy in my life that was like, we're not doing this, Dave, like I would, I would be dead right now. So

• 1:19:30David Choe?

  that's the one, and even in all the recovery places, people were like, holy fuck dude, you're getting a letter every day from someone? Like you have, we have more friends than anyone. And I said, that without that, and I know that's not um in the 12 steps or certain things, but like the most, one of the most important things for, for my life and my recovery is

• 1:19:53David Choe?

  these friendships are invaluable. So, you know.

• 1:19:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I think that kept you alive. It's like, have you read Johann Hari's book, Lost Connection?

• 1:20:01David Choe?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:20:02Rich Roll?

  It's kind of all about that, right? So, so while you're, while you're out there like freewheeling and, and, and getting like crazier than anyone can imagine, you have all these friends who are trying to, you know, get your attention. And you know, as any good addict will tell you, like, you just can't hear it, like until you're ready. So even though you say you didn't have a bottom, you did reach a point where you were receptive to some level of self-care or listening to where your friends were trying to tell you.

• 1:20:29David Choe?

  Barely receptive, but.

• 1:20:31Rich Roll?

  But enough to save your life, right?

• 1:20:33David Choe?

  I had, you know, my therapist likes to say, hope is not a plan. And I have, um, people don't tend to think of me as a guy who's like very calculated or has plans, but I had planned my bottom. Hmm. You know, I knew how much money I had in my bank account. I knew, I knew, you know, my brain, like in the same way I pull off this exit here, my brain instantly knows which fast food places I'm gonna eat at after this interview. I, I, I know. So in my mind, whether I wrote it out or not, like it had a plan of like, and then you'll lose this, then you'll go on this bender and then this, and then you may die from this thing, but if you live, then you do this, this and this. Hmm. And so in my brain, I always knew that there's treatment centers. I knew that there's hospitals. I knew that there's pills I could take.

• 1:21:18David Choe?

  I knew there's people I could talk to, but it was like, um, not yet. A little bit further to go, right? And the ultimate bottom, when someone's like, I hit a bottom, there's always a further bottom until it's death, right? Death is the final bottom. So I was like, I'm, I'm 25% away from the bottom that I would like clean up my life, you know? And I actually hear this a lot from young, young men. I talked to a lot of young men in their twenties and they're like, man, you've done so much fucked up shit, Dave. Like, I feel like, almost like I need to do a little bit more before I get help. And the, and the deceptive side of,

• 1:22:01David Choe?

  of addiction is if you tell someone you have a problem with fentanyl or alcohol, they go, oh, you got a real problem. You better take care of that. But it's, you know, it's completely acceptable today in our society, uh, for a young person to wake up, gamify their love life, right? Swiping, uh, and then play video games for multiple hours, uh, masturbate to porn, smoke the most powerful weed. And that's just, you, you, that's not a problem. That's just life. Everyone does that. Yeah, that's the way. And, and, and if I, if, if I go to my manager and he opens up my Instagram and he shows me my DMs, it's just, I'm lost, I'm lost, wanna kill myself. Give me, give me, um, you know, uh, you know, some, some things I can do, you know? And it's just.

• 1:22:47David Choe?

  So I sat there in the same way. I was like, what really is my problem? I wish I had a sex addiction, you know? I was, I was sleeping with multiple women a day and not enjoying any of it. I was winning millions of dollars a day and not enjoying any of it. Oh, boo hoo, Dave, boo hoo. And I go, but it's a problem for me. It's a problem for me.

• 1:23:11Rich Roll?

  But that becomes an impediment to reaching out for help because it's like, who's gonna, you know?

• 1:23:16David Choe?

  Yeah, and that's why.

• 1:23:17Rich Roll?

  Acknowledge that.

• 1:23:17David Choe?

  And people always go, well, we don't understand why a guy like Bourdain killed himself. And I go, that's why. Because everyone's, he's already a god and everyone considers him the most interesting man in the world. Is that guy allowed to come to you and say, yo, I'm like you and I, and well, dude, come on, man. You got, you know?

• 1:23:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:38David Choe?

  So that's where I was at.

• 1:23:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:40David Choe?

  I, I, I had, I was hiding in plain sight in all the social acceptable, having too much sex, gambling and like just, man, you have, you go to, you know, fly to Vegas in a private jet and a Bentley picks you up and, you know? And I, I, I was just, I was dying inside.

• 1:23:59Rich Roll?

  But you did have that group of friends who knew that it was out of control and were trying to help you. So, you know, had you had raised your hand earlier, that, that peer group who, I mean, didn't they intervene on you a bunch of times? I mean, you know, they were trying to help you out. They could have caught you a little bit sooner.

• 1:24:18David Choe?

  There was another intervention in the rehab to stay, to stay like I tried to get out.

• 1:24:21Rich Roll?

  How many rehabs did you go to?

• 1:24:23David Choe?

  Um, I've been to, well, I don't know if rehab's the right words. I've been to, I've been to the Meadows, I've been to Pine Grove, uh, Esalen, Hoffman, PCH. Um, I, I mean, I can't.

• 1:24:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, some of those are more behavioral.

• 1:24:38David Choe?

  Yeah, a lot of it's behavioral stuff. So, um, you know, yeah, the last one, they physically, you know, and that, and that kind of.

• 1:24:51David Choe?

  You know, when you pick a sponsor and stuff, you're like, do I want a sponsor who's gonna be like nice to me and be gentle, or do I want, hey, like drill sergeant, so I, you know, today I need more gentleness, but I was at the time of my life where I wouldn't, because of how I was raised, I really wouldn't respond to people unless they were yelling at me or physically.

• 1:25:12David Choe?

  So that's what I needed at the time. And in my mind, I was like, shit, there was,

• 1:25:19David Choe?

  and my friend, one of my closest friends, he said to me in the car ride, he said, hey, listen,

• 1:25:26David Choe?

  like, we can't change you, we can't control you. So if you wanna get out of the car right now, go ahead. But you're not an idiot, you know how the story ends, you've seen enough, you've watched enough movies, you know enough people. Like, you will die, you will go to jail again, like, these things will happen. So the only thing you gotta question is, do you wanna do it now, or do you wanna wait till you hit your bottom? And I was like, I kinda wanna wait till I hit that bottom. And in that moment of sobriety and clarity, I was like, I'll get the help now. And then I went to my first place and I met people

• 1:26:05David Choe?

  who, it was like, it was just like shocking, you know, just people, you know, as an addict.

• 1:26:16David Choe?

  These are those things, like when you're growing up and you're innocent and you're a kid. And when I, when I look at children and they're just, they're just pure. And you tell yourself, you know, whether you just start casually drinking, or casually looking at porn, or casually smoking marijuana. You go, well, I'll never, I'll never suck a dick for crack on Skid Row. Yeah, it's never, it's not the plan for anybody. But then it happens. So I think of how many things in my life I said, I'll never do that. And yet here I am, doing these things. And then the addict craves novelty, right? So you play the thing out until you don't feel anymore, and then you're like, what's behind door number two? And, you know, and then the final door is death. So

• 1:27:02David Choe?

  I got to meet the people who took it to the furthest. And I was like, holy shit, I'm so glad I pulled the parachute when I did, you know? And

• 1:27:14David Choe?

  And today, I mean,

• 1:27:18David Choe?

  you know, I have a lot of, I am a sponsor to a lot of people in different programs. And I have a lot of shame. That I've never gotten anyone past step two in 12 steps because,

• 1:27:31David Choe?

  you know, I take people through the way my sponsor took me through. And one of the things is,

• 1:27:37David Choe?

  I've yet to meet

• 1:27:41David Choe?

  someone with the iron will, a well-disciplined brain, who can resist the temptations of a cellphone, right? Because what is a cellphone? Is a drug dealer, strip club, casino? Like, I could tell you a million stories of how I used to get high off those things and what I had to do to get porn when I was 15, what I had to do to get to a casino. Now it's just this.

• 1:28:05Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:28:06David Choe?

  So I'm not going to be able to resist that. So what's the first thing anyone says when they say, we need to take your phone away, or we need to block your phone so that you have a child-safe phone? Oh, I need it for work, right? Oh, it's for work? Okay, right? Then it's okay. And they go, well, can you have someone else do the work stuff for you? Oh, no, no, no, I gotta do it myself. So until I was ready to fully surrender, which took years. And now, and now it's, I'm so liberated, right? You would think, oh, why do you need to restrict me and, oh, like the news and shit? Like, you, you gotta be informed. I was like, I know what's going on. Enough people have phones. They tell me what's going on.

• 1:28:56Rich Roll?

  So you literally don't have a phone, haven't had one?

• 1:28:59David Choe?

  I have a phone, but it's, it has, um,

• 1:29:01Rich Roll?

  It's stripped of all the apps or whatever.

• 1:29:03David Choe?

  There's two main apps. It's called MobiSip and Covenant Eyes. There, there might be a better one now, but those, my phone is, I can only use it to take pictures and to call people or text. That's it.

• 1:29:14Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:29:14David Choe?

  So I can't like look at the internet and I can't, you know.

• 1:29:18Rich Roll?

  And how long have you been doing that?

• 1:29:20David Choe?

  Five years now.

• 1:29:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:21David Choe?

  Yeah, and it changed my life.

• 1:29:22Rich Roll?

  I mean, it, it has to just make you a happier person.

• 1:29:26David Choe?

  Oh, my God, it's like, it's.

• 1:29:31David Choe?

  You know, one of the luxuries, I spend a lot of time and I'm sad that I haven't been able to since Covid in Tanzania with this tribe, the Hadza, they're hunter gatherer.

• 1:29:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I remember you talking about that on Rogan.

• 1:29:43David Choe?

  So, I mean, when you wake up in your day and what are the things that we say here in our senses? I need a job, I'm looking for a job, or, you know, what should I do today? Like, when you're a hunter gatherer, you have a job, it's get food, that's it, every day. Every day when you wake up, it's get food and there's no free time. So when I come home and the anxiety and the stress and all these things start to build, even without a phone, just living in a city, because the city is a natural kind of thing,

• 1:30:17David Choe?

  that free time, that freedom of like having free time is the thing that,

• 1:30:24David Choe?

  you know, if I have free time, I will get into trouble, right? Idle hands are the devil's playground, all that stuff, like, I will get into some stuff. So, to have, to wake up and just have purpose, you know? So one of the things is restricting the phone so that I don't even have, I don't, I don't know what I don't know, it's just, and then having things in my life that are meaningful and, you know, one of the hardest things was doing that, surrendering the phone, and then the second thing was lying, which

• 1:31:05David Choe?

  comes in many different forms, right? Like, you're a liar, everyone listening to this thing is a liar. No, I'm not, I'm not a liar, and I go, well, there's lying by withholding information, there's lying through storytelling, changing details, exaggeration, and there's, you know, using, that's not lying, but like using humor to like, you know,

• 1:31:26Rich Roll?

  Deflect.

• 1:31:26David Choe?

  Deflect, there's all these things, so.

• 1:31:31David Choe?

  I, it took me forever to just admit that I was a liar. You know, I was at a place that was pretty severe. They put you on a lie detector every week and they ask you questions and, and you know, my thing- Like to rewire your brain? Rewire your brain. I go, this isn't normal. Like, no one's gonna put me in a lie detector in real life. They go, we know that, but while you're here and you're getting help, we want you to... And I go, but that's... People know me as a storyteller. If I don't exaggerate and like, you know, come up with funny anecdotes and like, then, then who am I? And they go, that's fine. There's a, there's a time and place for that. And my brain is so binary with like, I'm either this guy or you can't, you know, and they're like, you can, you can, there's a time and place for things.

• 1:32:16David Choe?

  And it just, it just took forever where the place where I was at was so serious and so depressing and so much trauma and addiction and all these things that I was the class clown, right? Every meeting would end with me going, uh, like turning a joke into everything. So on one leg, they put a sticker that said, no joking. And then on the other leg, it said, no lying. So, um- Yeah, all your tools. All my tools. And, and they said, look, we're, we're not, they're like, we're not your friend, we're your treatment team. Like, you do whatever the fuck you want when you get out of here, but we're not judging you. Yeah. You lying, you, where did you learn how to lie?

• 1:33:01David Choe?

  From your parents, from the way you grew up? You grew up in a very unsafe environment, so you had to train yourself to lie so that you could be safe. So for that, you could be grateful. But guess what? You're not a kid anymore. You don't ever need to lie again, ever. But because it's so ingrained into how you speak, sometimes you just do it without. So I go, well, what do I do in that situation? They go, well, you can correct yourself within 24 hours. And I go, what? So when you lie and you catch yourself and you tell a story that you've told a million times and then you're like, wait a second, that actually isn't true. And that was like, I mean, that threw my friends, they were like, what the fuck, who are you? I would say something and they would be like, hey, you you run today?

• 1:33:46David Choe?

  And I'm like, yeah, I did a, I did a quick hike.

• 1:33:48Rich Roll?

  And then the next day.

• 1:33:49David Choe?

  And then I'd call them an hour later. Hey, go, hey, you know, you know, when I said I did a hike, I actually just went outside to get the newspaper and.

• 1:33:55Rich Roll?

  Well, one of those things was the story that you you told repeatedly around like the television show thing, right?

• 1:34:01David Choe?

  Right, right. See, I'm even trying to go like, what's what's the lie and what's the truth? I had I had just done Howard Stern and Scott Rudin had heard the interview and he said, I don't understand how no one's optioned your life for a TV show yet. And so I do some quick research, who's Scott Rudin? I'm like, oh, shit. He's the EGOT. He's the, he's done everything, you know? He's done, you know, he's done every single TV show that I I watch and every movie that I like. And he's like, what if if I was to turn your life into a TV show, what would what would you, how do you see that? And I'm like, has to be irreverent, has to be ridiculous, it has to be like curb your

• 1:34:41David Choe?

  enthusiasm, has to be the most ridiculous version of me and use me at at my expense, like humiliate the shit out of me, like the more you make me look like a loser and stuff, the better. And he's like, I got the perfect guy for you. And so this was the rehab I was in Hawaii for gambling addiction, or that's what they told me on the phone and I got there and they'd never heard of it. So I was at this rehab where everyone was there for meth and I was there going. So they, you know, this was probably not appropriate, but a week in, I'd barely just gotten in, they sent Harris Whittles, who had written for Parks and Rec and Eastbound

• 1:35:23David Choe?

  and Down to to interview me and he he was interviewing me and, you know, there's, I don't know, like a hundred hours of tape of me telling him all my childhood stories and all the crazy stuff I did. And so that was one, one deal. And then the other deal was, um, uh, Bourdain had been grooming me to, you know, he wanted me to write a book for him on his publishing label and he, you know, his, his, his team were like, you know, he's, he's not going to do this forever. Right? So, you know, he's, he's, he wants to pass the mantle at some point. And, you know, like, holy fuck.

• 1:36:05David Choe?

  He goes, the thing with you and Tony is, you know, I have a show on, I had a show on Vice called Thumbs Up, where I hitchhike around the world.

• 1:36:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:36:12David Choe?

  And, um, you know, I don't know, a couple of people saw that, but, you know, and he has like the biggest show. And, and, um, but he goes, but for you to travel and talk to people, that's just your life. It's not like you would have to like do that, you know? So you, your, your life is very similar to his. And instead of the food angle, you could do like an art angle.

• 1:36:31Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:36:32David Choe?

  And I was just like, so sick in all of my addictions. And I'm like, and yet, once again, I'm being rewarded. I'm getting these TV show deals and, and that wasn't the lie. Those things were true. But then I said something on my podcast that got me canceled and all those deals disappeared. And because I couldn't live with, um, you know, abandonment and rejection is one of my biggest traumas. You don't fucking say no to me. I say no to you. And as long as I'm talking on the mic, edit, remix.

• 1:37:05Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:37:06David Choe?

  Like, oh, I turned those off.

• 1:37:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. The story that you told is that you walked away from that because you had this self-awareness that you didn't want to have a life that was like Tony's, that made it very difficult for him to be in public. And you're like, I have enough money, like, I don't really want that piece of fame. So I don't need that, which made you sound like courageous and heroic.

• 1:37:26David Choe?

  And actually, you know, so that it's not so binary, there was truth in that, like, but that option was just taken away.

• 1:37:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:34David Choe?

  Like, as I was contemplating, do I want a TV show? Is this what I want? It was like, er, record scratch, it's off the table. And I was like, okay, I guess it doesn't really matter.

• 1:37:43Rich Roll?

  Meanwhile, Harris overdoses and dies from, yeah.

• 1:37:48David Choe?

  So.

• 1:37:49Rich Roll?

  Who I knew, I knew him a little bit, not well, but.

• 1:37:53David Choe?

  Yeah, I mean, I.

• 1:37:57David Choe?

  I, he, he died while I was in, at the Meadows. And, um, you know, he had just gone sober.

• 1:38:07Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:38:07David Choe?

  So he texted me and, um, one of the reasons why that show didn't move forward was the script that he turned in was horrible. And I was so codependent with him at that point, I didn't know how to, I was like, this guy's one of my favorite writers and, and he had told me he had started taking, um, you know, OxyContin once, one a night and, um, and, and I didn't know what that was until I learned at this place that was supposed to be for gambling, that, that's like basically heroin. And I was like, whoa, you, you better be careful, man. And he's like, ah, I got it, Dave, I'm all right. So, um, looking back, I'm like, man, he asked a lot of like recovery questions when he came

• 1:38:50David Choe?

  to interview me and I was like, oh, maybe he was like trying to get help for himself, you know? And so when I was at my second rehab at the Meadows, he had, um, he had died, but the last text he sent me was, hey, Dave, I'm so sorry about that script I sent like a year ago. It was, I don't know if you know, but I was like so messed up on drugs. It was like the worst thing I've ever written. I owe you a, a new script. Um, and, uh, and I'll see you when I, when you get out of this place, like try not to have sex with any of the nurses or, you know, something like that, something like Harris. And then like, um, two weeks later, I found out that he had passed and, um, that was my

• 1:39:34David Choe?

  perfect excuse to get out of rehab. I was like, my friend's dead, I gotta go to his funeral. And they're like, you just got into treatment, like a real place, not like the place that says they're for gambling, you know? Do you think your friend who's dead now would want that for you? And I was like, fuck you for saying that. Like fuck, like who the, like, he's, he's my friend, of course I'm gonna go to his funeral and pay, and they're like, your friend died in addiction. Do you think he'd want you to leave? And I, that just made me so angry, but everything made me angry, right?

• 1:40:04Rich Roll?

  Right. You, you weren't exactly in a place of surrender.

• 1:40:07David Choe?

  Right. But I did, I did, I surrendered and they said, look, um, we can have a memorial service, like in the desert, you know, you can pick a place and you can honor him how you want to honor him. And so, um, I did that instead, you know? And it's just.

• 1:40:25David Choe?

  I've just seen, you know, I've just been to so many of these places and they're so expensive. And I go to these AA meetings and they're free and I sit here. And it's not me just rebelling just to rebel or to challenge, just to challenge. But it's like, whenever Bill started AA, he's like, okay, it was a different time, right?

• 1:40:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:52David Choe?

  So, and you know, you've talked to so many people and I've talked to so many people and I sit here and I go, AA, Alcoholics Anonymous, and yet, we all know addicts or we are addicts ourselves. And so there's all this, like, isn't the anonymity part of the shame, right? Like, and I think to my days as a graffiti artist, right? And I go to, I was on tour with this guy Saber and Retina. And we go to a strip club and the strippers have anonymous names. Hi, I'm Laser. Hi, I'm, like, everyone has superhero, supervillain names.

• 1:41:31Rich Roll?

  Which is also derived out of shame.

• 1:41:33David Choe?

  Right. It's all shame.

• 1:41:35Rich Roll?

  Maybe protecting them also, because it's dangerous to do that.

• 1:41:39David Choe?

  Right.

• 1:41:39Rich Roll?

  Weird stalkers and stuff like that, but it is a...

• 1:41:42David Choe?

  But now we live in a world of OnlyFans and porn stars are more accepted and sex workers are more accepted. And I've been to meetings where the most powerful, famous people on the planet are there. And yet, it's, and I go, can we get rid of, I don't know if we're there yet, but can we get to a place closer where, where we get rid of the anonymous part?

• 1:42:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's tricky.

• 1:42:06David Choe?

  Right.

• 1:42:06Rich Roll?

  It's tricky. I mean, I've made personal choices around my own anonymity or lack thereof. But I'm also cautious about protecting other people's anonymity. And then the line gets really gray when it comes to just talking about AA generally.

• 1:42:21David Choe?

  Right.

• 1:42:22Rich Roll?

  On a public platform, because technically it violates one of the traditions. So I never know where that line is, because my motivation is, I want, I want people to understand that this is something that's available to them. I want to de-stigmatize it, because I had a lot of shame about going into it. And I had a lot of assumptions and judgments about what it was, based on what I saw on television or movies and having no real connection to it or knowing anybody that was in it, because it's anonymous. And yet, there still is a lot of stigma, you know, not everywhere is Los Angeles.

• 1:42:57David Choe?

  So how do we, that's true?

• 1:42:58Rich Roll?

  Well, we talk, we talk about it. I think we, we talk about it, but we're careful and conscious about the way in which we talk about it.

• 1:43:06David Choe?

  Well, part of the, the 12 steps is, is higher power, right? You know? And so for someone who grew up with spiritual and religious abuse, that was the part where I was like, I'll just cut this part out. I'll do 11 steps, you know? Or I'll do, I'll do seven steps. I don't need these. I was like trying to edit, pick and choose. And um,

• 1:43:28David Choe?

  you, you bring up tradition, right? But you know, as, as humans, we like, you know, we like a structure, we like tradition, we like, you know? And I just had so much trouble with that part. I'm like, I grew up in a really religious abusive house and I don't, I don't, I don't pray to God. I don't do any of that stuff, you know? And they go, well, you're gonna have a tough time because, you know, and the way they worded is like the higher power of your understanding, right? And I go, I don't understand any higher power. And then I finally had a sponsor that said, I don't care. They're like, you're mortal, right? You're a human being. I go, yeah. So your ego, like what, what part of you thinks that you would ever understand, see or comprehend what God is?

• 1:44:11David Choe?

  And I go, so I don't give a shit if you're like, you know? So you go through all the religions, all the history of the world and you're like, my God is blue and has 20 arms. Mine has a beard, my, you know?

• 1:44:25David Choe?

  Like, didn't you say you're an artist? I go, yeah, I'm an artist. Someone made that church. Someone wrote that hymn. Someone designed that, you know, flying buttress. Someone made that, that, that hat and like, these are humans. Like they might be touched by God, but someone made these things like. Someone drew that portrait of Jesus. Like, you're very limiting when it comes to, like, why don't you draw your own God? And I was like, whoa, that's a, that's a heavy homework assignment. And he's like, you know, until you, until you do that, like, I, I actually don't care. I want you to get on your hands and knees, which is a very humbling position. Like praying, like, sitting up, putting your, like, get, like, begging position.

• 1:45:08David Choe?

  I need food, I need water, like, I, please, sir, give me your clothes. Like, I want you to get in the begging position and beg for your life back every night. That's how you pray. And so that's how I, that's how I got in touch with my higher power. And then today, I, you know, um, not trying to use my head too much, but just more my heart, like, you know, people like to talk about, you know, I'm in the flow or some, you know, something like that, like, am I in? And I go, creativity is God. Like, us as humans, what differentiates us from other animals? And I go, when I'm creating, that's me praying. When someone's like, sitting and like, life is boring, I'm in a prison cell, or I'm at home, and life has no meaning, and it's just like, wait, I got an idea for a song.

• 1:45:53David Choe?

  Or I wanna try to make a new kind of silverware eating utensil. I got a new idea, like, I'm like, that is, that is conscious contact with a higher power. That is me directly, God speaking to me and me speaking to God. And so, um, I don't know, that's just the antisocial side of me. That's always questioning, okay, so the 12 traditions are like, we have to be press and media, how we talk about this and that, and I, and I go,

• 1:46:22David Choe?

  what did I learn in all the 12-step meetings I've been to? What did I learn in all the behavioral places, the mental hospitals? Like, I've been to so many, and it's like, did you have to be the most messed up? Did you have to hit a bottom to go there? Did you have to have an addiction to go there? And it's like, no. I think about school and education, what did I learn?

• 1:46:44David Choe?

  You know, photosynthesis, do I, did I need to know that? Did I need algebra? All these things I learned, it's like, did I need to learn how to speak up for myself? Ask for what my needs are? Did I need someone to show me what a boundary is and how to use it? Like, I mean, like, I'll tell you something that happened today that, um, like, I was like, I was like gleaming on the car right here. It took me like an hour to get here and I was just like overjoyed.

• 1:47:16David Choe?

  My mom's been doing this like kind of massage thing to me since I was a kid where it's a, I guess it's Asian where she just steps on my back. She's just like all my pressure points. So she saw me and she's like, you're fat. You look fat and disgusting. I go, thanks, mom. She goes, your neck, you know, your posture is horrible and, and, you know, I've put on a lot of weight during the pandemic and she's like, get down, I'm gonna, I'm gonna massage you. And as she's massaging me, she starts talking about some Bible story and, um,

• 1:47:51David Choe?

  and one of the boundaries I've had in my life is I'm not telling you how to worship your God, just when you come into my home, like, I would, I would like it if you didn't do that. And so the child in me would, would be like, mom, if you fucking do that, I'm never gonna talk to you again. It's very childish, immature, and she already knows I will talk to her again. So as they say, boundaries without consequences is just a request.

• 1:48:17David Choe?

  So she starts doing that and then, and then I'm, I'm, I have what the therapist called emotional incest with my mom, like she, she's enmeshed with me. Yeah, enmeshment. So another thing that she said, so, you know, lower back, all, you know, Joseph in the Bible and the technicolor dreamcoat and whatever. And I'm like, I go, oh, this is, I have a voice, I can say, hey, mom, I've asked you not to, you know, but instead, because she's literally stepping on me and stepping on me like verbally, um, I didn't say anything. So as she gets higher, she goes, you know, It doesn't really matter who you you choose to be with, you know, if who you start a family with. They'll never be your mother.

• 1:49:02David Choe?

  And I go, oh, great. And she goes. And I and like, and she's literally stepping on my head while she's saying this. And she goes.

• 1:49:08Rich Roll?

  Like physically repressing you.

• 1:49:10David Choe?

  Yeah, physically.

• 1:49:11Rich Roll?

  While she's, you know, laying down the emotional fucking dead weight.

• 1:49:17David Choe?

  If it's so funny and sad at the same time, because it's comical.

• 1:49:22Rich Roll?

  Or it's it's driven by her fear, like she's afraid that she's gonna lose you.

• 1:49:27David Choe?

  Right. And in that moment, I start, I I can, at this point, I'm so in tune with my body that I can go, okay, time to send my mind somewhere else. Like, I'm gonna consciously disassociate because I I don't. And so I go, part of my self self defense mechanisms is humor. So I gotta turn this into a joke now. And I go, so what? So what, mom? Like, what do you mean? She's like, well. You know, if you get married and you start a family like.

• 1:49:55David Choe?

  Say you kill someone. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. She goes, say you murder someone. Your wife may or may not protect you. But me. You know, I'm gonna hide you. You know, I'm gonna get you to, you know. And I just start, I just start dying. I just start dying. I'm like laughing. And I'm laughing because I want to cry, you know. And she leaves, you know, she finishes stepping on my head and my neck, and then she leaves. And, uh.

• 1:50:25Rich Roll?

  Asserting her dominance.

• 1:50:26David Choe?

  Yeah, she's like, I'm I'm the the main bitch in your life and just and and and don't you forget it, you know?

• 1:50:34David Choe?

  And she leaves and I sit there and I go, I feel horrible right now. You know, I don't feel good. And I and I start to think.

• 1:50:42David Choe?

  You know, I don't have rich till like 11. I should go eat a cheeseburger at McDonald's right now. That'll make me feel better. And I go. Oh, how about I reinforce that boundary? You know? So I I go, I drive to her house before I come here and I say.

• 1:50:57David Choe?

  I open with gratitude and positivity. I go, "Mom." So it's not like a, I don't want it to be a shaming thing with her. And I also don't want to go into codependence where I'm like protecting, "But you're a good mom," you know? I say, "Hey, Mom, I come here with love. You know that I love you. You know how much you mean to me. Uh, and yet I've asked you repeatedly not to..."

• 1:51:20David Choe?

  And this is what my therapist taught me. They're like, "If you're cutting someone out of your life, it's one and done, right? You're like, 'Don't do this,' and the next time you do it, you're out. But if it's someone like a family member that you want to keep in your life, you will have to train them like a dog, like the neuroplasticity stuff. It's like, it's not like you're gonna hold the boundary once and they're gonna learn. You will have to repeatedly do that. So you're gonna have these awkward, uncomfortable conversations. But I'm at the point now where I'm in seven years, so I like awkward, uncomfortable conversations. And so I said, "Hey, um, I've asked you not to bring up, you know, the Jesus stuff. And I've asked you to not, you know, do this stuff where you're, you're, you own me and you're my property. It's disrespectful to the people in my life and it's not cool and it doesn't make me feel good."

• 1:52:05David Choe?

  She launches immediately, like the playbook says, into defense. "Oh, oh, gaslighting. No, no, no, no. You heard me wrong. That's not what I was saying." Uh, maybe it's because it's English. Let me say it in Korean. Says the exact same thing. And I, and I, I find myself reverting to a 12-year-old girl. Yeah. "Oh, oh, oh, you're right," you know, you know, and I go,

• 1:52:29David Choe?

  "So I've heard everything you said and I still love you. And because you didn't, um, you know, do what I asked when you come to my house,

• 1:52:40David Choe?

  uh, to take, because I love you, but I also love myself,

• 1:52:44David Choe?

  uh, I need a timeout from you and you can't, uh, come into my house for the next two weeks." And, and you know, um, "Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm cool." And then, um, you know, on the way here, uh...

• 1:53:00David Choe?

  She texted me, you're gonna like this. It's like a her fuck you to me. I'm trying to be as functional in a dysfunctional.

• 1:53:09Rich Roll?

  The thing with that, though, is like doing it from a place of neutrality.

• 1:53:13David Choe?

  Right.

• 1:53:14Rich Roll?

  You're not triggered and you're not being reactive. And you're also not attached to whatever her reaction is or is not.

• 1:53:21David Choe?

  Dude.

• 1:53:22Rich Roll?

  Like, she's gonna react however she's gonna react. It's not about changing her behavior. It's about reinforcing that boundary so that you're free and you're not carrying around that own, that, all that like baggage and shame.

• 1:53:33David Choe?

  Rich, I'm free, man. Like, I-

• 1:53:35Rich Roll?

  What did she say? Did you read?

• 1:53:36David Choe?

  Oh, you wanna read it? It's her, it's her. I don't know how, how you wanna take this, but here it is. Okay. Hi, with peace and love.

• 1:53:50David Choe?

  Uh, I wanna get some things off my chest because it's important for me that I am known. And like, that's also not how she talks, so someone's definitely writing. Uh, and I have a dog. And like, she's asked me, don't bring your dog in the house. And it's like a little dog that's not annoying at all. But because my mom has her own trauma with like, a dog biting her when she was in Korea. I do not want dogs in my house. I am uncomfortable and I want this feeling to be respected. This is my house and I need to feel comfortable. And about mealtime. I work very hard on cooking good meals for everyone. I put a lot of love into it. Please, from now on, make sure that everyone waits for my prayer before we eat. Please respect me. Thank you.

• 1:54:31Rich Roll?

  That's fucking hilarious for so many reasons. Like, we just spent an hour on that text alone. Like, on the one hand, it's awesome that she just completely deflected you and didn't acknowledge anything about what you said and just comes back with her own boundaries, which-

• 1:54:48David Choe?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:49Rich Roll?

  On another level, like, good for her.

• 1:54:51David Choe?

  Yeah, no.

• 1:54:51Rich Roll?

  Like, she's got some pain around whatever boundary you're disrespecting.

• 1:54:55David Choe?

  Absolutely.

• 1:54:55Rich Roll?

  And she's asserting that boundary, so, cool.

• 1:54:57David Choe?

  And so, like a dog? It's funny that we're talking about dogs. All these behavioral places, uh, I'm usually the youngest guy there. Like, you know, when I was 35, like, most of the guys were in their 50s or 60s. And we're learning all these things about neuroplasticity and how to change behavior. And I'm like, these motherfuckers aren't gonna change. Like, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, they're not gonna change. It's like, you have to do so much. I do believe in neuroplasticity, but you have to do so much work and focus and discipline for it to work. And, um- And I get out and I tell my brothers, this is all the shit I learned and they're like, don't, you think mom's gonna change?

• 1:55:35Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:55:36David Choe?

  And to her, to her credit, she has. In the last five years as I, like, to me, the reason why I feel good is, um, good for her, for her boundaries, because she wouldn't have said it like that.

• 1:55:49Rich Roll?

  And not sending you a reactive text, but like waiting a little bit, having somebody help her craft the language.

• 1:55:55David Choe?

  Exactly. I mean, this is-

• 1:55:56Rich Roll?

  Putting some thought into it.

• 1:55:57David Choe?

  You know, not to make it a race thing. I don't know any Asians that talk like this. Like, this is like advanced level karate, like, I, and, and, and she did say, she did acknowledge me, you know, she, I, I said my boundaries and I said, for this reason, this is why you can't come over for two weeks. And then it's for me to just feel safe in my own house.

• 1:56:15Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:56:16David Choe?

  Like, oh, here she is, just creeping in again. And, uh, she lives five minutes from my house, that's why.

• 1:56:20Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 1:56:21David Choe?

  And so, any other time in my life, number one, I could never say that to my mom. I'm your fucking mother. You don't talk to me that way. If I'm crossing your boundaries, good. You know how much shit I did for you? You know how much stuff I had to go through to bring you here? So, okay, okay, I'll, I'll keep it down. So not only would I not bring it up,

• 1:56:43David Choe?

  if I brought it up, it would be so much shame on like, but, you know, but if you don't want to, you know, like, oh, oh, maybe not two weeks, maybe three days, you know, like, it would be a lot of backpedaling, apologizing, gotta make sure she's okay. And all of it goes to, she's my elder, she's my mom, I respect her, you know? Um, and, and the, the mortality of it, how much longer is she gonna live?

• 1:57:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:09David Choe?

  Ten, twenty, thirty years? I guess I'll just, you know, at the cost of me, I guess I'll just keep myself down for the next twenty, thirty years.

• 1:57:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:17David Choe?

  And, and to now, to speak up, it's like, she's an adult, she can take it. And, and, and so, everyone in my family's noticed. They're like, wow, mom has changed. And so, it's just, is that addiction stuff? It is, because it's such a strange sentence to say out loud. My mom said something about God to me. I didn't know how to feel about it. So I lost a million dollars at the casino and had sex with prostitutes I didn't want to. That's my old, it's like, it's like, that's what happened. My mom said something to me. So now I did something so that my body would get hurt or someone, you know. I went on a podcast and said outrageous things about her so that I would, you know,

• 1:58:00David Choe?

  I would feel more shame and people would hate me more. Or I could end up cancelling, like, that's how it would manifest myself. And, and there was.

• 1:58:08Rich Roll?

  And beneath it all is this child who is, is deeply sensitive and, and like naturally very empathetic. Who, who has trouble processing all of the emotional stimuli that the world is throwing at him. Compensates for that through all manner of behaviors and creating all kinds of chaos. Only to return to this place where he has to heal himself. So that he can embrace his natural tendency toward empathy and celebrate his sensitivity.

• 1:58:42David Choe?

  See, immediately, as I want to make a joke right now, but I.

• 1:58:45Rich Roll?

  Right. But it's true, like when I, like, when you, the minute you walked in here. You defied my expectation of how you were going to comport yourself because you were very calm and you were kind of quiet. And my relationship with you is, is seeing, you know, kind of a little bit of the crazy. And then in watching your show, which is the whole reason that, you know, we came together today, like, I see somebody who, like, the whole motivation behind the show, it seems to me, at least what I got out of it, is your ability to, to sit with people in their pain and, and kind of.

• 1:59:29Rich Roll?

  Celebrate our shared brokenness as something beautiful.

• 1:59:35David Choe?

  Yeah, I appreciate you saying all of that.

• 1:59:40David Choe?

  So to go from the lies of the TV shows I had to. I have no desire to be on TV and yet I am on TV, right? Like, there's no part of me like.

• 1:59:50Rich Roll?

  You're a walking conundrum in that. Or like, you're, you know, you're, I mean, hypocritical, I think, is cast like a negative connotation on it. But you're, you're, you contradict yourself. And part of that is what it means to be an artist, I think, at least in your case.

• 2:00:07David Choe?

  It's so fun for me to have like Bourdain's team call me or David Chang or, you know, whoever and say, "Hey, can you come on the show?" I hop in, I hop out, I have none of the pressure of carrying the show. It's fun for me.

• 2:00:22David Choe?

  My life is a life of service now. That's something I'm also working, you know, I do. I can never say, it's so difficult. My therapist said, "It's so easy for you to play the heel," right? That's, that's how you get high. That's, the more you play the heel, the more people talk about you, the more attention you get, the more money you get, the more all this. For YouTube go and say what you really do with your life, which is give your time to helping people, you know, donate to all these things anonymously. Once again, anonymous. I go, "Well, it's such a douchey thing to be like, I donate to this and this." And they go, "Well,

• 2:00:59David Choe?

  why not tell people what you do?" Because as someone who people, some people do look up to you and look to you as a role model, for you to say, "Hey, I," you know, on the Joe Rogan thing, talking about the Hadza, tons of people donated money and are helping with the cause now and actually helping those people.

• 2:01:19David Choe?

  And I go, yeah, I still feel weird because it's like, look at me, I'm, and I don't wanna be that guy that's like, I donate, I'm the hero, so I hide all the good things I do because I don't want to. I don't know, that there's some kind of shame with someone, I feel way more comfortable when people are like, you know, I, I look at some of the replies of the show, they're like, oh, the show changed my life, it's great, and my friend was gonna kill himself, he watched the show, it was great. And I just go through that, and then there's one going, you're, you're a fraud? Your show is, is the garbage, like, it's unwatchable, and I go, oh, here we go, now I like this, you know? So, it goes back to everything I'm talking about right now, I go, I'll, I'll spend an entire day with the kid.

• 2:02:04David Choe?

  And he'll think nothing's wrong with him, but, and yet he's suicidal, and he's, you know, I can't, it's not drugs, it's not alcohol, but, and yet, and then so I'll, I'll, I'll give my life force and my energy to this kid. And at the end of the day, I'm like, I'm so happy that I was able to help one other person. And then my ego flares up and goes, fuck, if that day was filmed, and it was on TV, then I could have helped hundreds, millions of, you know, whatever. And yet, it's just to be like, that was enough, I was enough that day, and, you know, and, so, I always believe, like, and this is something I'm working on, but I, I believe 100% that nobody believes in me, you know?

• 2:02:47David Choe?

  I've been in pitch rooms, I've pitched TV shows before, and, you know, the way those two TV show deals got pulled out because I said something on a podcast, I go, okay, so I don't, and, and, and we live in a fear-based society, fear-based religion, fear-based, you know? So, I go, okay, the only way for me, and, and the way I look at the show, my TV show, is, is how can I give back the things I've learned to the most amount of people? And I go, is it on social media? Well, that's one component of it, but, you know, at this point, I still don't know too many kids that watch TV, most kids I know watch YouTube and TikTok.

• 2:03:29David Choe?

  But I go, I think TV is still relevant enough, and, um, you know, there's something going on in. Topanga, Malibu, this area, like you, Rick Rubin, Neil Strauss, like, there's, there's like,

• 2:03:46David Choe?

  I'll be honest, like, I feel more comfortable now than now that we've sat here for a little bit, but like Neil Strauss is a friend of mine, he's one of the smartest guys I know.

• 2:03:55Rich Roll?

  I'm very good friends with Neil.

• 2:03:56David Choe?

  Yeah, he's one of my favorite writers, I know that you know him, and I talked to him close to nine to 12 hours, I don't remember because it went into the night and then the next day.

• 2:04:08Rich Roll?

  When you, oh, you mean when you were taping that episode?

• 2:04:10David Choe?

  So he's actually in the TV show for like, I don't know, five minutes, 10 minutes, maybe,

• 2:04:16David Choe?

  or less, but that day I was so intimidated, in the same way when I was coming here, I'm like, he's so smart, he has so much information in that brain, he talks so fast, he's so witty, he's so clever, and so I just, I'm like, oh, man, I gotta study, I gotta, you know, I gotta, you know, like, in the same way, so many people in treatment, you know, the way, when you see it physically, when someone physically transforms their body into a bodybuilder, and they're like, look at how strong I am, no one can ever hurt me, you know, my dad beat me, but no one ever is, I'm a UFC muscle man fighter, no one's ever gonna fight me.

• 2:04:55David Choe?

  So many of the people that I've met in treatment are geniuses, right, they're brilliant, they're, they have these,

• 2:05:03David Choe?

  they've, they've invented stuff, they've started entire economies, so their brains are, they, they, and, and as the therapist says, you're not gonna outsmart, outrun, out an emotion, no matter what, you know, you think of Facebook, you're like, wow, this brilliant guy started a social media giant because he wanted to have sex with women.

• 2:05:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:05:27David Choe?

  And you think of Elon Musk, you're like, this guy is gonna get us to Mars because he wants to run away from his dad, right, like, it's just. What are we gonna do when we get to Mars? We're gonna mess up Mars. Like, why don't you just go to therapy? Like, and it's like, that fear. He's like, I'm less scared of Martians and Mars than what's, what I'm gonna find out here, you know?

• 2:05:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:48David Choe?

  So I go-

• 2:05:49Rich Roll?

  And to be, and to be living your life unconsciously reacting to that thing, you know?

• 2:05:56David Choe?

  Right.

• 2:05:56Rich Roll?

  And just, action after action after action after action.

• 2:05:59David Choe?

  Wounded warrior, man.

• 2:06:00Rich Roll?

  Creating a whole life around some wound.

• 2:06:02David Choe?

  Wounded warriors, man, my entire-

• 2:06:04Rich Roll?

  That you think that you can just push away and not deal with.

• 2:06:07David Choe?

  And, and that's why I guarantee you that you can run longer than me. But if we went out in the parking lot and did a 50-meter dash, I can beat you because I'm a sprinter and I can- I can run so fast and, and, you know, when I was doing thumbs up, when I was doing, like, when I was like, "Yeah, and I'm a gambler and I'm da-da-da," people were like, "What are you running away from?" And it was that unconscious, like, I just can't sit still for one second. If I sit still for one second, then, then-

• 2:06:37Rich Roll?

  Discomfort.

• 2:06:38David Choe?

  It's discomfort. So even sitting with Neil and then doing that talk, I know he had just started doing a podcast of reopening murder trials and I felt great fear for his child, for his wife. And I just sat in that. I was like, "I'm not gonna outsmart Neil Strauss. He's smarter than me. He's more brilliant than me. I just wanna tell my friend how I feel." And he was talking circles around me and trying to, "Someone needs to do it, Dave. Like, someone needs to, like," and I go, "But, but why you?" And, and he, and so for hours, just verbal sparring and like, and then finally after we finished, he got in the car, he's driving back to Malibu, and I call him and he's like, "I gotta apologize to you."

• 2:07:18David Choe?

  And I was like, "What?" He's like, "Well, you were just trying to tell me how much you love me and how you're worried about me. And I just went into like, intellectualism and, and I was like, 'Fuck, I wish you could've said that on the show.'" And he's like, "Well, I owe you another better interview." So he came back and we talked for another six hours, and then he was way more vulnerable then. And I was like, "These are conversations I've never seen in my life on television." And so, um-

• 2:07:47David Choe?

  In my mind, this is my life. In my life, I get naked with other men. I, I, I share every part of me. And they share their, and we cry together. And I do this with everybody. And so when people go, oh, that's such a brave thing you did or whatever. It's just my norm. So when it was time to put something like this on television, people were, you know, there was a lot of episodes that got pulled. You know, there's, in, in the last seven years, I've interviewed over 2,000 people and no one's in the same way, no one has ever heard some of these podcasts. And I have thousands of paintings no one's ever seen. Um, there's still fear in me. I go, I have a lot to share and it's completely unedited.

• 2:08:29David Choe?

  Like it's just the whole spectrum of human. And everyone who cares about me and is, is saying, don't put that stuff out there. And so I, so I go, you know what? Uh, one of the things that rich people tell other rich people is don't pay for your own stuff. Like, why would you pay? You know, you can get other people to pay for it. And I go, well, when other people pay for it, they get creative control, whatever. So I made the show exactly the way I wanted to. I talked to, you know, all these people that I know or know of. And, and, uh, it, it was, I don't know if television is the medium for me.

• 2:09:13David Choe?

  Cause there is, they call it, uh, streaming wars for a reason. There's all these analytics and stuff that people go, okay. If you get Seth Rogen on your show, then you get more views and you know, like, and I, I'm just trying to, um, it's the question I asked you earlier. For me to do a show like that, I, I know that I'm helping people and, and I'm helping myself. But what's the cost of that? Right?

• 2:09:39Rich Roll?

  I don't know. What is the cost of it? I mean, my sense in watching it is that it's very clear that it's this heart centered piece. Um, it's so creatively unique in its expression that it could only be you. So it's definitely, um, you know, this sense of like living in your mind or, or, or, or kind of living inside of one of your paintings. And it's a reflection of all of this work that you've done. Like as somebody, you know, who's steeped in recovery and therapy and the like, like, Those are conversations that I have, that I've learned to have, that I look forward to, that I appreciate, that are so important to my life. But I'm also very aware that that's not the norm with most people.

• 2:10:24Rich Roll?

  So how do you give people a sense of what that can be like for them? The healing power of that and the beauty. And I think that you found a way to do it in a really entertaining and creative way. Leading with vulnerability and guiding people who perhaps have no prior experience with anything like that. To show them, not only are these conversations okay to have, but just how empowering they can be. And when you hear someone like Neil or Steve or the other people that you've had, like share their pain and you realize like, these are human beings. We don't get out of life alive. We all have our troubles and our obstacles and the things that we faced and had to overcome.

• 2:11:09Rich Roll?

  It humanizes everybody. And I think there's, it's like this healing frequency that comes out from the screen that is unusual in our media landscape right now. And I think that's why I personally responded to it.

• 2:11:24David Choe?

  And not to down, thank you for saying all that, not to downplay, but the show is not a cultural phenomenon.

• 2:11:32Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 2:11:33David Choe?

  In my mind, I wanted to.

• 2:11:34Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's a hard sell. You know, it's not like.

• 2:11:35David Choe?

  My best friend called me and said, you know, the show is you. I know you, I love it. It's like, I was crying watching it. And yet I had to watch it like porn. I'm like, what are you talking about? It's like every time my wife came in, I had to like shut it off. And she's like, what are you watching? And there's no way I can watch a show like that with my wife without having an uncomfortable conversation after. And that's a conversation I don't want to have. And so.

• 2:12:02Rich Roll?

  Maybe that's a conversation you needs to have, though.

• 2:12:04David Choe?

  Right. Well, that's what I would say. And so I sit there afterwards and I go, oh, there's a lot of people that are saying, hey, you know, I watched that show alone in my room. And I go, well, why don't you watch it with your husband or wife or your parents or your kids? And they're like, no, thanks. So there's people, you know, when I had Erica Garz on talking about her addiction to masturbation and porn, I had another close friend say.

• 2:12:32David Choe?

  You know, I have monitoring software on my kid's phone, so I know how much my 15-year-old watches porn. It's like a lot. And yet, I have no entry point on how to have that conversation with him. So I said, hey, you wanna watch Uncle Dave on this TV show? And it was uncomfortable as hell. You're talking about porn, you know, the woman's talking about porn. And I'm sitting there with my son, and I know he watches all the stuff. He doesn't know that I watch it. And there's all this shame coming up. And yet, because you put that out into the world, we were able to have a talk about that afterwards. And I was like, that's awesome.

• 2:13:08Rich Roll?

  That's what it's about, man. And even if that talk doesn't happen, it's like going to an AA meeting before you're ready to get sober. Like, you don't, you don't walk out of there and get struck sober.

• 2:13:18David Choe?

  Right.

• 2:13:18Rich Roll?

  But a seed is planted. And it's kind of like, once you've had, been exposed to that, like, you can't quite shake it, right? It's like, kind of ruminating around in your consciousness.

• 2:13:27David Choe?

  So I wanna plant as many seeds as I can. And when someone goes, hey, have you tried this new therapeutic, you know, EMDR, you know, whatever, like psychodrama? I go, I'm in. Enough said, I'm in. And they go, well, it's really expensive. And it's, you know, they don't let everyone in. I go, so I've been to all these places. And the, the ceiling that's always hit is that it's a business, right? It's like, you know, whenever, as they say in, in the treatment, like, you have a breakthrough, right? It's like, well, how do you feel right now, Dave? I'm gonna fucking break all these cameras right now. Well, you, you can't do that. All right. So I guess, I, you know, I thought, I thought

• 2:14:12David Choe?

  this was a safe place. I thought I could do whatever, you know? So I found that I was having these amazing breakthroughs. And I was watching people who I thought would never have breakthroughs, like people that remind me of my dad, and people that remind me of like, my younger self, having these amazing breakthroughs. And yet, you're still in an office building, right? You're still sitting in chairs. And I'm like, let's, let's go outside. And like, and they're like, Dave, this, you know, there's a dentist office out, like, you can't do, do that. And I go.

• 2:14:41David Choe?

  Oh, you can't, but I can. I have creative license. I have artistic license. I could. So, um, you know, I, I, I tell everyone like, I'm not a guru. I'm not a therapist, even though I've probably been in rooms with group therapy, one-on-one therapy, you know, I've seen, you know, I've been at rehab centers that are meant to be like thirty days, ninety days, and I've been there for two years, you know, so I'll, I'll have been there when you're there. And then six months later, I'll be like, wait, are you married to? And so I'll hear your wife's side of the story, and then I'll hear your kid's side of the story. So I've, I, I have a lot of this information in my head and I go, oh, wow, like, this is a lot. And I feel like,

• 2:15:24David Choe?

  you know, all the, all the things that I do of helping people, donating money in my time, it's like,

• 2:15:31David Choe?

  it, it never gets, it's like, oh, you give a home, you know, I'm like, oh, I give a homeless guy some money and some clothes and some food. It's like, he's

• 2:15:39David Choe?

  not making light of what I did. I helped him for that day, for that moment, but is, did that get to the root of it? Did that get the, the brokenness? And I go, how, how can I?

• 2:15:50David Choe?

  You know, it's like, as someone who has privilege, who has wealth, like, what is my best way to serve myself and humanity and help one another? Cause

• 2:16:02David Choe?

  you get to,

• 2:16:05David Choe?

  you know, like when we had Trump as president, like, man, fuck this guy. He's horrible. And it's like, you know, just as well, there's a broken child in there. There's a hurt child in there and, and does that? Is there any place in our culture for a guy, if he woke up the next day and was like, man, I've messed up. I want to change. It's like, no, there's, it's just kill that guy, like, down with him. And, and so it's, it's so polarizing. And even with myself, you know, you get into any treatment, you know, you go to Narcotics Anonymous and it's like, there's a hierarchy, right? It's like, oh, well, we're, we're into opioids and you, all you do is smoke weed and, you know, oh, I, I had more trauma than you and this and that. And I, I, I sit there and I go.

• 2:16:52David Choe?

  If if there's no room in our culture for redemption and change, so I I as someone who's is like me, who is so judgmental, who is a hater, I always try to lead with love and and so I've I've been asked to do such hard things in my recovery, you know. There's people that are, you know, in recovery. I I meet murderers and rapists and people that that are in prison still and have done horrendous things, who've ripped people off and who who who should be in prison. And so I'll meet them and I'll be asked to sponsor them. I'll be asked to to work with

• 2:17:32David Choe?

  them and I go, absolutely not. Like, I I think that person should burn in hell and be in prison. And they go, and can you also help them? Can you want them to burn in prison and hell and also help them? And I go, fuck, I gotta think about that. Because for you, like, if someone's out there and they've been a horrible person and they should be in prison, and yet they're not in prison, and they're still out, and they want to change, is shaming them and yelling at them. So I I had I had these experiences where I would meet people and I go, and I would be able to tell them, I'd be like, I feel uncomfortable sitting next to you right now.

• 2:18:16David Choe?

  I know you got out of prison early. I believe you should still be in prison and should be there till till you die. And yet, because you're not in prison, and I'm not judge, jury, executioner, I'm willing to work with you if you are serious about changing, because it doesn't help for someone who's like that to live in, because he's just gonna be in society worse. And so, as they say, nothing changes if nothing changes. I

• 2:18:43David Choe?

  I was ready to sail off in the sunset. Done with podcasting. I don't like the anxiety that comes with speaking behind a microphone. Um, I don't need to be on TV. All, all those real things of why, you know, before they took those opportunities away. Why I did, um, decide, well, what I was deciding whether or not to do TV. What I did see in Bourdain, what I did see what fame and workaholism did to him. I was like, I'll just do the one on one thing in private, no cameras. I don't need to broadcast this. I'll just help people the way I help people and, you know, but there's the ego and the workaholism. It's like, but I need to help everyone. I gotta help the whole world.

• 2:19:23David Choe?

  Like I need to, you know, I gotta change everything and, and, um, you know, I sat in it and I, I already knew that there, there would be no network that would show that show. So I went ahead and filmed it, made it myself. And then FX stepped in and their whole logo is fearless, you know? And they, they said.

• 2:19:42Rich Roll?

  They didn't get involved editorially with trying to change anything?

• 2:19:46David Choe?

  There was a little bit. It was a conversation. I took, uh, the Louis deal, you know, Louis CK, uh, you know, created, edited, did everything for less money. So I was like, I'll take that deal. I don't need to get paid. I never did this for the money. Um, so I took less money for more creative control. And, um, you know, they were concerned, you know, like all the, no one else would sit down with me. Here's, here's the thing that's about the shame and anonymity is

• 2:20:15David Choe?

  someone at all those companies knows who I am. They're like, dude, I love you on Vice. I love thumbs up. I love.

• 2:20:20Rich Roll?

  But we just can't do it.

• 2:20:21David Choe?

  And they go, but we're not gonna do it. This, this show comes out, the new show, and I have some of the biggest celebrities on the planet reach out to me. And they go, dude, I, I don't even know who you are, but someone turned your show on. I watched all four episodes and I was like, cool. Can you, can you be the next guest? Can you tweet about? And they're like, no, no, no.

• 2:20:39Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 2:20:40David Choe?

  This is just me privately telling you this. And I go, oh, okay. So that's, that's how deep those things run. And, um, you know, I'm, I'm forever grateful to everyone at FX because they're, they're, they're so cool to work with. And they put out all these challenging, uh, TV shows and stuff with like the anti-hero. And they said, listen, um,

• 2:21:02David Choe?

  You know, because the show was already done. They're like, this is like this, the world needs to see this. This is amazing. Um, we're just worried that like you might get canceled or you know, you've you have such a crazy history of insane things you've done and said. And I was like, oh, is that what you're worried about? That's easy for, let me, let me make the decision for you. Hard pass on David Joe. And, and they go.

• 2:21:28David Choe?

  I'm like, didn't you like learn your lesson with like Louis and all this other stuff?

• 2:21:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:21:32David Choe?

  And they go.

• 2:21:33Rich Roll?

  But also you have a history of, of doing that reverse jujitsu maneuver where you know, you take it off the table and it just wants, they want it more.

• 2:21:40David Choe?

  I don't know if I was doing, I mean, thank you for saying that.

• 2:21:43Rich Roll?

  I mean, that might not have been your motivation, but that's the psychological impact of.

• 2:21:47David Choe?

  I just wanted to know that everyone had, so I could be clear. I'm like, everyone has now rejected me, so now I can just become a YouTuber.

• 2:21:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:21:54David Choe?

  Like that's, that's, I was like, once everyone has said no.

• 2:21:57Rich Roll?

  I mean, it would have been huge on YouTube if you had done that.

• 2:22:00David Choe?

  I mean, and ultimately that's my, I don't know.

• 2:22:03Rich Roll?

  And maybe more people would have seen it.

• 2:22:05David Choe?

  But it always comes down to this and which is also the, you know, the hesitancy to come here today is.

• 2:22:12David Choe?

  When you do anything like that outreach, recovery work, something where you're putting out a positive message, showing change, um, you will help people, but then comes with that an expectation, you know? And, and when you spoke earlier about, so the show's doing good. And, and it was one of my biggest fears, talking to Neil Strauss and other like really smart, brilliant people in recovery is.

• 2:22:36David Choe?

  Going to any of these behavioral places and learning about addiction and behavior, you're going to learn all these tools. And in the same way, like learning the force, you can use it for the light or the dark side. So I've met people who are like brilliant in recovery and yet their lives are falling apart. And they, they, they go into this martyr thing and like, like I, you know, I don't know Tony Robbins, but every time I see him speak, I'm like. Holy shit, this guy is like brilliant and he's so selfless in helping all these people. And he seems like a douche, you know, it's like two things. I'm like, would I ever want to be that guy? It's so weird, like he's helping so many people through and that's priceless and that's invaluable and yet.

• 2:23:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but your self-awareness around that piece is the differentiator. Like you have a conscious awareness that you, that a fear like of suddenly, you know, kind of moving in that, that kind of weird guru direction. And I don't see that as a threat. It just doesn't feel like any part of your sensibility whatsoever. And you know, what you had said earlier was this piece about like thinking about how you can be of service. And like, yes, you can, you can be of service in a one-on-one basis with, you know, that hard case dude or whatever it is. But ultimately, like when I look at you and I think about service more broadly, like what is it about you, like what can you do that no one else can do?

• 2:24:01Rich Roll?

  There's other people with tons of money. There's other people that have more sobriety than you and have been to more rehabs and are more steeped in, you know, the literature of psychology. The one thing that you have that no one else has is this very unique artistic ability to express yourself in a very particular way. And, and for you to channel that in the direction, like in this, in this vein of like gratitude and service and, and kind of raising the bar on the kind of conversations that we can have so we can help each other and heal each other, like that's a gift, man. And that's why I think the show, you know, is a reflection of your very particular sensibility. But to me, it's coming from that, that place.

• 2:24:44Rich Roll?

  And personally, like selfishly, like I want to see you do more of that because that's something nobody else can do.

• 2:24:53David Choe?

  Do you want me, do you want to see me do more of that? Or would you like to participate in that?

• 2:24:58Rich Roll?

  No, what I'm saying is I want you to embrace that aspect of who you are rather than resist it. And, and to do it like with everything that you've learned about where your ego sits and what your relationship to it is so that you don't, you know, succumb to some of the things that Tony did or fall prey to workaholism and the like.

• 2:25:19David Choe?

  But that's the thing is also recognizing, but that's also the thing is recognizing I'm not beyond that.

• 2:25:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:25:25David Choe?

  Just because I'm healthy now doesn't mean I could fall back into that.

• 2:25:28Rich Roll?

  But it's an opportunity for you to reframe your relationship with what you do and do it in a healthy way rather than just create a boundary and say, I'm not going to do it because it's too treacherous or dangerous. Like, is that a possibility for you?

• 2:25:41David Choe?

  You know, that's, you know, I feel like, as they say, you peel back the layers of the onion. I feel like, like today, I'm not in crisis of all the things that used to plague me. And the, the like, kind of final boss is the workaholism. You know, there is a side of me that loves to numb out and dislike, and of course, in the spirit of helping people, right? To spend less time with my family and my, and my, and my friends and, and everything. And I have a, like, an amazing, what I, you know, if you talked to me seven years ago, would consider a very boring life, but it's, it's, it's a purposeful, meaningful life. It's, um, you know, there's times where things are hectic, but you know, it's a pretty like

• 2:26:26David Choe?

  mellow life in that there's, there's something deep in within me that's like, why are you going to sleep right now? You, there's so much more energy. You can, you can pull an all nighter right now. Well, you know now that you won't be present for your family the next day then, but you can, you can work on so many projects right now. You know you have that capability. Like, that's my Iron Man, right? I can not sleep, no coffee, no drugs, and work on 30 projects and start an art show and an immersive experience and develop other, you know, I can do that. And, um, you know, just in the same way, I like. Most of those interviews in my show were from two years ago. That's how long it took to get that show onto TV.

• 2:27:11David Choe?

  It took more work to get that on the TV than to actually make the show. And what happens when you put the show out? People go, when's the next season? Right. I'm like, I worked on that with Paco and the guys from the Philippines. I mean, we like, like, I know it's not the way you do normal TV, but we did something on every frame of that. Like, there's so much stuff that we put in there subliminally and hidden messages and stuff that, there was a lot of thought put into it and people to go, someone's like, I'm like, how about sit with the thing that we made? And like, is one season enough? Does there have to be a season two? And, and these types of things. So I'm, I'm trying, like, I'm impulsive.

• 2:27:53David Choe?

  You know, I like to just make decisions without thinking about it. And to, you know, once again, that whole thing with like waiting in line. Like, I don't like waiting. I don't like sitting in silence. I don't like, I have to just run. I have to just get to the next thing. So to sit here and be like, like you said, all this reframing and re-measuring these things. Because I did a show in an office building about three, four years ago, where I had to fight against my ego and tell people, you can't bring your phone in, you know? And I was like, well, then how are people going to see it online?

• 2:28:35David Choe?

  And it's like, well, maybe just the people that come see it, that's, that's enough, you know? And, and, and so, and another thing is, can you really experience something truly when there's thousands of people coming through there? So I limited it to groups of seven. And, and you went in through the whole show with like a guide. And I implemented like all these things that I learned. And, and I was part of the show too. And it was the first phase of the Cho Show. And I had no...

• 2:29:09David Choe?

  I had no idea how much that was gonna take out of me, like physically and spiritually, like emotionally, like, um, you know, cause at the end of the day, you know, we had a hundred people a day coming in through the show when we could have had thousands and, and I had um, a staff of like hundreds of people, like this is just financially not viable in, in a treatment center, right? Like if you went to a treatment center and you have like a few therapists and you have your group this, like I had a team of like hundreds of people catering to just you and some of these people would just be on the floor crying all night. So I had to find therapists to treat the staff after and-

• 2:29:54Rich Roll?

  Meaning somebody comes in for this experience and they're, they're exposed to some form of-

• 2:30:00David Choe?

  Yeah, you would fill out a nap-

• 2:30:01Rich Roll?

  Some version of what you experienced in treatment, right?

• 2:30:03David Choe?

  So I went through, yeah, and I went for years and I go, people aren't gonna take years off to do this, so I'm gonna try to fit it into a four hour experience.

• 2:30:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:30:12David Choe?

  And um, it was um, I mean, it, it, it floored me. I, I, I, it took so much out of me and yet, um, you know, the show cost me a tremendous amount of money and, and I could have monetized it. I could have charged people and people would have gladly paid. And after the show, um, there's a guy who lent me use of the building for free and he's a billionaire and he's, he, you know, when I told him originally what I was gonna use the show for, he's like, Dave, I like that you're giving back and I'm gonna give you a great price. And I was like, why don't you just give it to me for free? He's like, that's not how business works. You don't just, I go, well, you're rich and I'm rich

• 2:30:54David Choe?

  and I, why don't you just, like, I just told you, I'm doing this to help people. And he's like-

• 2:31:00David Choe?

  I like how blunt you are. Okay, so he let me use that building for free. And at the end of it, his entire family had gone through. And he's like, when you were explaining it to me, I didn't get it. But now that we've gone through and I've seen it bring my family closer together. Let's take this show on the road. I got buildings, you know, he's a real estate guy. I got buildings in every city in the world. And like, and so my worker halls and goes, this is gonna be a hit show like let's. And I, and I had to sit there and it took out, you know, it's, it's almost embarrassing to say it. It took like seven people in my life to like, sit me down and be like, look at how messed up you are right now. You just put everything into helping and entertaining and doing all this stuff for these people.

• 2:31:43David Choe?

  And you have to respect what a psychic toll that took on you. And so we get it that you can like disassociate and just take this show on the road for the next couple of years. But in a, in a, and you know, with all the things you learned, can you be kind to yourself? Cause I don't even know what that means, cause my whole life I've treated myself the same way. Like if I think about the most verbally and physically abusive girlfriends I've had, that's how I treat myself. I talk down to myself. I say I'm no good. And so I don't wanna sit in that. So I, I go, so me taking a vacation after this would be kind to myself? And they're like, yeah.

• 2:32:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:23David Choe?

  Like you just did a lot of heavy lifting, but in my mind I go, but it was only 2,000 people. It should have been, you know, 200,000 people. And it's always that. It's like, I wanna, I wanna help everyone. And as long as I'm helping people, I never have to help myself. I can focus on helping everyone but myself.

• 2:32:41Rich Roll?

  Right. It just becomes a way to avoid or deflect.

• 2:32:45David Choe?

  Right.

• 2:32:45Rich Roll?

  That piece that's the hardest, which is learning to love yourself.

• 2:32:49David Choe?

  Yeah. And, uh, yeah, it was, it was, um, yeah. So I'm here today and, and my life's quite simple. And I, you know, it's all these, this is the way recovery was explained to me. The concept of getting better is very simple. It's not complicated, right? I just conscious contact with your higher power, service work, blocking your phone. Like there's action, exercising, you know, eating healthy. These are all like, none of these are like hard concepts to understand, but it's hard. It's simple, but it's very hard. Like it's going to take me an incredible amount of willpower after this interview to drive home without stopping at Burger King.

• 2:33:34David Choe?

  Like that's just the truth.

• 2:33:35Rich Roll?

  We want to give you a ride.

• 2:33:36David Choe?

  You can, yeah. Get me to the next exit and then.

• 2:33:40Rich Roll?

  I'll escort you out of here. You can do it.

• 2:33:43David Choe?

  Thank you. You just, you just saying that like you can do it is.

• 2:33:46Rich Roll?

  You can do it.

• 2:33:47David Choe?

  That's a nice positive.

• 2:33:48Rich Roll?

  It's definitely within your power. Yeah, man.

• 2:33:52David Choe?

  I'll let you know if mission accomplished or not. We'll see.

• 2:33:56Rich Roll?

  Well, you know, we should round this out, but I, I don't want to let you go without, you know, maybe a few words for the one who still suffers, the one being the many. Because I think there's a lot of people who, you know, struggle in silence with some form of compulsive behavior or addiction to substance or process in some way. I mean, I just feel like this is the, you know, problem of our age. Like it's just metastasizing like crazy. So whether it's gambling or food or phones or sex or shopping or drugs and alcohol, whatever it is, like I feel like almost all of us struggles in one way or the other

• 2:34:37Rich Roll?

  along this very broad spectrum and finding a way out is really hard for most people.

• 2:34:44David Choe?

  So for the one who's still suffering right now, I just want to tell you, once again, I don't want to make it about race, but I've been to. You know, you guys have heard me now. I've been to all these treatment facilities. I've seen in seven years of treatment, two other Asian people. It's not part of our culture. And the last one almost threw me out because it was my voice speaking to me in the form of another kid. I was at a meeting and a kid came in and he was Korean and he saw me and I could tell right away he recognized me. And at the end of the meeting, he's like, "Dave Cho? You're rich, you're famous. What are you doing here?"

• 2:35:27David Choe?

  Like, like I wasn't, and as he was saying that, in my head, I was like, "You're right. What am I doing here? I'm better than this." And that almost took me out. I was like, "I don't need to be here. I am better than these people." So if you're listening now and, no judging. I don't care what, video games, porn, the internet, YouTube, binge-watching TV, food, whatever your thing is, no judging. The same brain that got you into this mess is not the one that's gonna get you out. You need a hand and all those tools, all these electronics, all these things that are used for evil and and to numb you and distract you, you can use those same tools to,

• 2:36:12David Choe?

  you know, I've been to these places that cost money, but there's so much free services. There's literally a 12-step program for every addiction. And if you think you are any of these things, you just, "Am I a workaholic?" Just type in characteristics of a workaholic and you'll see if you are very quickly. You probably are because we live in a nation, everyone goes, "Hey, America is a nation of immigrants," right? But that, all that means is we're a nation of workaholics. Because we came, everyone came here for something better and that means work your ass off. So even if you're not a workaholic, your family's workaholic. And all these things, we, it's not, it's not gonna be you on your phone alone,

• 2:36:55David Choe?

  watching porn alone, playing video games alone. It's through connection and so, reach out, ask for help, tell someone, you know, as, as, as, you know, when, when you ask anyone in society, hey, man, how are you doing? Most people will give you the answer, fine, good, okay. All of which aren't emotions. That's our, our, our automatic response. I'm okay. I mean, you could have the worst thing happening in your life today and be like, I'm fine. I'm okay. So to just,

• 2:37:26David Choe?

  it's okay. You're not okay. Um, and that doesn't mean like you're not gonna be okay forever. You just ask for help, there's support. And as someone, you know, my life today, I can't get through it without this, you know, I have, I'm part of a men's group. I, I go to 12 step meetings regularly on Zoom, which is the easiest it's ever been. It's, there's kind of a disconnect with the Zoom, but still better than nothing. I have a therapist that I see and it's like, there's a part of my addict brain that's like,

• 2:37:58David Choe?

  you need to go talk to someone once a week for an hour about, you know, and I go, do you know how much time I spend in casinos and at strip clubs and like all these places? Like I can't spend one hour a week on, on myself. So, um, there's help out there. It's not hopeless. And I wish for all my friends that killed themselves and for the times in my life where I contemplated suicide and, you know, I mean, we live in a society where it's normalized, where it's more okay to kill yourself than to ask for help. That's where we're at now. Someone would rather murder themselves than to go, hey, man, I'm really having a tough time,

• 2:38:41David Choe?

  uh, stopping, watching television or, or, or whatever your problem is. It, there's, there's no judging. Um, and we need it. We're not equipped to deal with what's happening in the world. So the way we get through it is through connection and, um, you know, all these social media, all these things were invented to connect and we're more disconnected than we've ever been. So, um, and I guess I'll just, because I'm with you right now. Are you suffering today from anything?

• 2:39:14Rich Roll?

  A little bit, you know, I'm overtired, I'm overcommitted, I have been working too hard.

• 2:39:23David Choe?

  I won't challenge you to the race then today, the sprint, but I'll challenge you.

• 2:39:31David Choe?

  I can like predict what I think will happen, but you said not a year and you have, you know, you know, your podcast is growing. The way I heard about it is you're worshipped at Sierra Tucson and all these like, they listen to you religiously. So it's like weird. It's like, oh man, I'm getting bigger, better guests and.

• 2:39:53Rich Roll?

  It's intoxicating. So having a healthy relationship with that.

• 2:39:56David Choe?

  So I challenge you to take six months off.

• 2:39:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:00David Choe?

  And spend time.

• 2:40:01Rich Roll?

  That's a heavy challenge.

• 2:40:02David Choe?

  It's a heavy challenge, but I know you're up for it and you've done heavier things. I can guarantee you, you won't lose one fan, one listener. When you come back in six months, you may have more fans, more listeners. It doesn't mean these guys can't keep working. They can recut best ofs or whatever. More time focusing on yourself, your family, and it's, it'll change your life.

• 2:40:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I'm not going to commit to that right here now.

• 2:40:31David Choe?

  It's a challenge.

• 2:40:32Rich Roll?

  But what I will commit to is I'm going to think about that and I'm going to do that like, like honestly and do an inventory around that. Cause I think that's insightful. Thanks, man.

• 2:40:45David Choe?

  Thank you, man.

• 2:40:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How do you feel?

• 2:40:48David Choe?

  I feel, um, I feel calm. I feel, um, less than a little bit, not a lot, just because I have, well, you kind of said it's like, you're like, I kind of expected you to come in hot, you know? And that's usually what I do. I don't meditate. I like get myself like kind of amped up. It's like, I take, I take podcasting and broadcasting very seriously. I hate when people just show up and dial it in like, um, I was up last night. I had like tons of material and stuff. I barely touched on any of it, but, um, I kind of.

• 2:41:32David Choe?

  You know, my closest friends don't watch anything I do because they go, you're kind of gross. Because you you go into this cartoon character of who you are and we know the real you. So. But there's that always part of me that's always wanting to be like.

• 2:41:48David Choe?

  I don't know who Rich has had on here, but when I come in here, I gotta fucking blow him away. And this has got to be the best show he ever does.

• 2:41:54Rich Roll?

  It's a performance, but I mean, my thinking going into it was. He's going to come in like that and my job's going to be to figure out how to get him to get him past that. You know, but you came in past it already.

• 2:42:07David Choe?

  Well, because the way I learned about you is all all people in recovery were like, you got to listen to this guy, Rich Roll. And like, you you won't, the way you go on to these other shows. You have to kind of school them on what addiction is and mental health. And he's like, he's already, you don't have to explain things to him. So you can just be yourself. And that's like, um, there's something liberating about that, like I can just be.

• 2:42:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:30David Choe?

  But then, um, you know, there's always.

• 2:42:36David Choe?

  You know.

• 2:42:38David Choe?

  Everyone I interviewed on my show was close, you know, the the the the shortest ones would be three hours, but they would go plus six hours usually. And, um.

• 2:42:51David Choe?

  That's my workaholism of. It took me years for me to have breakthroughs, but I'm trying to get a breakthrough within six hours. So I'm like, why the fuck does this guy run so much? Why does he like, who, what, like, if someone put a gun to my head and said. You need to run an ultra marathon or your entire family is going to be murdered. I'd be like, just murder my family right now. Like, that's, that's the same equivalent of, I can't run a five K. Like, it's like my legs start hurting. I go, OK, I'm going to stop because this hurts. So the best, like you said, all the best runners are in recovery and they're covered in tattoos. It's like, what are you running away from the pain of something?

• 2:43:32David Choe?

  The the the amazing ability to completely disassociate your mind from your body so that you can. I mean, like for me, when I see that, I go, that's definitely you got to be in shape and physical. But it's more mental than physical.

• 2:43:46Rich Roll?

  It's mental, but just to flip the lens on that. The other side of that coin is that when you put yourself in that position of trying to do something really hard, you meet yourself in a very fundamental way. Like, you can't run away from who you are. And your character gets revealed. Your weaknesses, your proclivities, like, all of the looping in your mind. Like, you become very present with all of that. And I think it creates a greater awareness of kind of what you're dealing with, so you can deconstruct it and move forward. Like, that's the positive aspect of that. Because I got into this at a very difficult time in my life, where I was confused about who I was and what I wanted to be. I'd been sober. It's not like I went, I got sober and immediately jumped into this.

• 2:44:30Rich Roll?

  Like, I'd been sober for 10 years before I got into it. But I was reaching another, like, plateau or kind of inflection point in my growth. And what I found through the process of, like, really submersing myself in that subculture is I learned a lot about who I am. And I learned, you know, what I needed to look at, where I was still, like, all of these blind spots that I've been hiding from suddenly, like, percolate up to the surface. So those things that you're running away from, like, come up, right?

• 2:45:01David Choe?

  It's so scary.

• 2:45:02Rich Roll?

  But it's an opportunity. And I'm not saying I've overcome all of those things, but I definitely have a greater awareness of them. And I've been able to kind of overcome some of them.

• 2:45:10David Choe?

  Wow, it sounds scary.

• 2:45:11Rich Roll?

  So it's like you telling me I need to take six months off is like me telling you you need to train for a 50-mile run or something like that.

• 2:45:20David Choe?

  50 miles? What's a marathon, 26 miles?

• 2:45:23Rich Roll?

  26.

• 2:45:25David Choe?

  Fuck, I've never, I've never in my life even-

• 2:45:27Rich Roll?

  You have two years to do it.

• 2:45:29David Choe?

  So if I run a marathon and you give me a two-year time limit, in that time, or after, you will take six months off?

• 2:45:36Rich Roll?

  Then I'll take six months off? Ooh, that's a challenge.

• 2:45:39David Choe?

  I can't even imagine. Like, when anyone explains me, like, what they need to do to do a marathon, it's, that to me sounds like mental illness. I go, "That doesn't sound healthy."

• 2:45:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But that's you putting a cap on your own capabilities.

• 2:45:55David Choe?

  Do you know how much your life will, like, expand? But, like, the thing is, you think by taking a six-month break, you'll lose stuff? Like, "Oh, I'll lose sponsors, I'll lose my flow, I'll lose, like, whatever momentum I had." But it's just, the way my life has grown from taking a year off is, like, insane, you know? Like, I have more- Opportunities more, you know, because we live in a society where it's moving so quickly. You just kind of want to say yes to things and go, oh, okay, cool. Let's like, and then you get sort of, or at least I should use I statements. I get taken for a ride where I'm like, do it like right now. You know, I'm going, I'm about to have a conversation about season two and it's like, there's no part of my brain that's like, oh,

• 2:46:41David Choe?

  of course they offer you season two, you just take it, you know, without even considering like, well, is that even something that you should do? You know, so, um, yeah, I guess my feeling when you ask me how I'm feeling right now is I bring so much, um, weight to every interview and podcast that I do that, um, you know, I, I, I was, I left very, um, and this is part of my growth, uh, disappointed in every single interview I did on my show. And it's just like, unless I had the level of breakthrough that I did.

• 2:47:16Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, you're creating a ridiculous expectation for yourself.

• 2:47:20David Choe?

  And also the, it's like, I, I, um, you know, I know Rain just did your show and he's been asking me to do his podcast and I'm in a men's group with Rain. I don't think he would mind. And so I, I, we have a shared vocabulary where we talk in shorthand, like I don't have to explain things and I go, um, he's like, yeah, come on and talk about art. I'm like, ah, so boring. Like, is that really what you want? He's like, yeah, where creativity comes from. I'm like, fuck that. Like, I'm like, how about, you know, because I know his father passed away. I go, how about I play your dad? And because I know you're, and he's like, nah, I don't know if I want to do that.

• 2:47:57Rich Roll?

  You would pull a cho-cho on his podcast.

• 2:48:00David Choe?

  That's what I want to do everywhere I go.

• 2:48:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:03David Choe?

  And I have to have people constantly explain to me like, that's really heavy. That's really deep. Like, I'm like, let's go there. Let's, I want to find. I want to find that with other people, but it's like the impatience. I want it now. It's like, well, why don't you, why don't you build up to that, you know? So I guess it's unrealistic expectations and then sadness and then shame and then Burger King and then shame with overeating, then driving home and then, you know, I'm going to Google like what it takes to run a marathon and be like, that I'm never gonna, and then I just sit there and I'm like, I'm a loser. Like, how, you know?

• 2:48:43Rich Roll?

  We're gonna feed you a little bit. I'm gonna escort you out of here. I'm gonna give you a training plan. I'm gonna figure out how I'm gonna take six months off and in the interim, man, I'm gonna send you a bunch of grace.

• 2:48:56David Choe?

  Thank you, man. Same to you, man. Appreciate you.

• 2:48:59Rich Roll?

  I appreciate the honesty today, man, and sharing space with me. I really do. Thanks. All right, buddy. Peace.

• 2:49:06David Choe?

  Peace.

• 2:49:19Rich Roll?

  Thanks for listening, everybody. For links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube. Sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course always appreciated. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page on richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast

• 2:50:00Rich Roll?

  was created by Blake Curtis, portraits by Ally Rogers and Davy Greenberg, graphic elements courtesy of Jessica Miranda, copywriting by Georgia Whaley, and our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. You can find me at richroll.com or on Instagram and Twitter at Rich Roll. I appreciate the love. I love the support. I don't take your attention for granted. Thank you for listening. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Amaste.