Break Up With Him When It’s Over with Elaine Welteroth

Michelle sits down solo with author, businesswoman, and all around multihyphenate, Elaine Welteroth, to answer a listener's question about a dating red-flag. Elaine tells the story of past romance with her own “Br. Big,” and how it nearly set her off course from the family goals she cared most about. Michelle talks about the importance of dating before marriage and highlights a concept that should be paid more attention: being the “chooser,” not the chosen. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  So this is, I've never told anyone this, Mrs. Obama, but I'm gonna tell you this because it applies to this person's situation. When I was 25, I happened to be dating. Don't judge me, Mrs. Obama.

• 0:15Michelle Obama?

  Okay, let's hear it.

• 0:16Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 0:17Michelle Obama?

  You promise?

• 0:17Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 0:18Michelle Obama?

  Is this a safe space?

• 0:19Speaker 00

  Right now, it's a safe space. It's a space.

• 0:21Michelle Obama?

  You have two daughters.

• 0:22Speaker 00

  I'm sure they brought you some, some, some stuff.

• 0:24Michelle Obama?

  Oh, please.

• 0:25Speaker 00

  And you've had to keep the...

• 0:26Michelle Obama?

  And some things I've had to say, don't tell your father that, okay?

• 0:35Michelle Obama?

  This episode is brought to you by Pine Sol and Theraplu. Well, hey, hey! I am here, we are here chatting. I'm solo this time. I usually have my big brother Craig to join me in these conversations, but he's feeling under the weather. So, but we're gonna proceed without him because we've got a great question that is perfect for our guest. And I wanna welcome one of my favorite people, Elaine Walter Roth, who, you know, goes without any introduction. She is beautiful, smart, sharp, awesome. Her resume, she's a New York Times bestselling author,

• 1:16Michelle Obama?

  award-winning journalist, former judge on one of my favorite shows that I still never got to go and sit and judge.

• 1:25Speaker 00

  It could still happen.

• 1:26Michelle Obama?

  Project Runway. We'll, we'll see. It's on my bucket list. Another thing that you are known for is being at the helm of Teen Vogue, doing great things. But you've also launched Birth Fund, which is a foundation that provides grants for midwifery, birth support, and holistic prenatal care for mothers. And I didn't know about that work. You're doing it all.

• 1:55Speaker 00

  Look who's talking.

• 1:58Michelle Obama?

  Thanks for being here, Elaine. We've got a great question that's right up your alley. But before we jump in, I just want to check, how you doing? You look great. Feeling great. You got some things going on.

• 2:09Speaker 00

  Some things.

• 2:09Michelle Obama?

  Some things. Tell us all about life.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Some big things are popping, literally, about to. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. What a dream. I am 33 weeks pregnant, 32, I think 32 weeks pregnant today.

• 2:23Michelle Obama?

  Congratulations.

• 2:24Speaker 00

  Thank you so much. This is the perfect way to bless the bump.

• 2:28Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  Before we get into that final, final stretch. But.

• 2:31Michelle Obama?

  But it's a good segue into, well, it's almost a good segue because it's like before you get to having the baby.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  You gotta choose who you're gonna do it with.

• 2:40Michelle Obama?

  You gotta figure out who you're gonna have it with. And that takes us to our question for today from a young woman named Alice, who's 30 years old and is trying to figure out this whole mothering thing.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  Hi, Michelle. My name is Alice. I'm 30 years old and I've been in a relationship for about six years. I desperately want to have children and I know that I want to be a mom. However, my boyfriend doesn't feel ready and doesn't think he will ever want kids. But he's not totally sure. We're very much in love and do see a future together, but I just can't imagine a life without children. And I feel like I need to know soon whether or not that's in the cards for us so I can move on if I need to. So my question is, have you ever seen a man change his mind about wanting kids in his 30s? And if so, what prompted it? And if we do decide to break up and I re-enter the dating scene, what important questions should I be asking potential suitors

• 3:38Speaker 02

  to avoid spending another six years in a relationship where our visions are not aligned? Thank you.

• 3:45Michelle Obama?

  So, yeah, this speaks to you, doesn't it?

• 3:48Speaker 00

  It speaks to 25-year-old me, it does.

• 3:52Michelle Obama?

  Really? So these were, yeah, and I get these kind of questions from my young staff, my mentees, you know, at that age. And a lot of women are struggling with the finding a mate, finding a good mate, dealing with the biological time clock, thinking about freezing eggs, just feels more fraught.

• 4:17Michelle Obama?

  Then it maybe even was for me when I was that age. But I want to hear a bit of your journey around this, this question.

• 4:29Speaker 00

  So this is, I've never told anyone this, Mrs. Obama, but I'm going to tell you this. Because it applies to this person's situation. When I was 25, I happened to be dating. Don't judge me, Mrs. Obama.

• 4:44Michelle Obama?

  Okay, let's hear it.

• 4:45Speaker 00

  Okay. You promise.

• 4:46Michelle Obama?

  I don't know.

• 4:47Speaker 00

  Is it a safe space?

• 4:48Michelle Obama?

  Right now, it's a safe space. It's a space.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  You have two daughters. I'm sure they brought you some, some, some stuff.

• 4:53Michelle Obama?

  Oh, please.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  And you've had to keep the.

• 4:55Michelle Obama?

  And some things I've had to say, don't tell your father that. Okay? Just keep that between us.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Let's just say this is one of those things.

• 5:01Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 5:01Speaker 00

  This is one of those things. So when I was 25, I found myself in love with a 50-year-old man.

• 5:08Michelle Obama?

  Okay. All right.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  And this 50-year-old man already had children. And at the time, you know, I really wasn't thinking about children.

• 5:19Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 5:20Speaker 00

  And we were having a great time. You know, really wasn't worried about the future. But the deeper we got into the relationship, it came up.

• 5:30Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  That he didn't want to have children.

• 5:32Michelle Obama?

  How long were you dating before you?

• 5:35Speaker 00

  It came up pretty, pretty early on, I would say. And when he said he didn't want to have kids, I kind of heard what she heard, which is like, well, maybe there's still a chance, right? You know, I think when we're young, we think that we can maybe change people. And we think that maybe we could inspire a change, right? Like, love conquers all and love. But you know, there are some practicalities in life that you do have to consider. And one of the most important things that my mom has ever told me, that Maya Angelou has said, is that when somebody shows you who they are.

• 6:13Michelle Obama?

  Believe them.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  Or in this case, tells you who they are. Believe them.

• 6:17Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 00

  The first time.

• 6:19Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 6:20Speaker 00

  And this applies in this situation. If this man has said to you, I love you, but I don't want to have kids. And if you know deep down that that is something you really, really want. You have to-

• 6:34Michelle Obama?

  You gotta know that and keep it moving.

• 6:36Speaker 00

  You gotta, unfortunately, you might have to wrap things up.

• 6:39Michelle Obama?

  How long were you in the relationship before you kinda thought, mm?

• 6:43Speaker 00

  A year.

• 6:43Michelle Obama?

  Okay, well, see, that's-

• 6:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:45Michelle Obama?

  Truthfully, at 25 or 30, you know, young women are still figuring themselves out, you know, and just to cut you a little bit of slack, at 25-

• 6:57Speaker 00

  Please.

• 6:58Michelle Obama?

  You were a baby-

• 6:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:00Michelle Obama?

  You know, and you were still figuring out who you were, and in our 20s, we are more malleable. You know, we're more open to possibilities. And you're with an older man who makes you feel mature and you feel secure in it. I mean, my question is not to you at 25, but it's to him at 50.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  I have the same question now, looking back, as a 37-year-old woman, I have the same question now.

• 7:27Michelle Obama?

  Right, now, I mean, because first of all, it's like, a 50-year-old man is dating a child, and that may feel fun and easy, right, and in so many ways, but my question to him is, why are you wasting her time? And you know you don't want to have kids, you know? So, some of the burden is on the guy. He's already been married, has had his kids, you know, so it takes two. And at 25, you learned an important lesson.

• 8:02Speaker 00

  I want to tell Alice that sometimes, the prayers that go unanswered-

• 8:07Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  -are the ones you will be the most grateful for down the line. Because I will tell you now, looking back, woo, thank you, Jesus, that I did not end up going down that path and hoping that this man would change his mind. And, you know, God forbid, he did.

• 8:23Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  One of the things he would say, and I gotta give him credit, he did say, "I do not want you to look up in your 30s." And go, I gave the best years of my life to this guy. When we don't want the same things going into the future. And he said, he would say, you know, having kids is a young man's game. And at 25, I didn't get that. At 37, going on two kids with an energetic young man who was my age, who can keep up with me. Oh, I get it now. It is, it is something that you have to have the conviction. And I think that, you know, in relationships, yes, you have to make compromises. And yes, you will, you'll hear that a lot from married couples.

• 9:08Speaker 00

  But there are some things you do not compromise on. And kids is one of them. If you do not have the conviction, if you don't really, really desire that, you are better off not wasting another person's time and entering into that lifelong partnership. Because if you can't support her fully in motherhood, leave her alone.

• 9:30Michelle Obama?

  There are many ways to live a full life. And, you know, we're raised as young women to think it's marriage, it's kids, in that order. And that's one thing we don't have control over. You know, you don't know if you're gonna fall in love. You don't know if you're gonna have, find the right person. You don't know how life is gonna unfold.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  That the truth.

• 9:55Michelle Obama?

  And I find that, I, I know some of my young mentees feel less than because they haven't found somebody or they haven't had a child. And it breaks my heart because these are beautiful, smart women who have amazing lives. But because one piece of the puzzle isn't there, a piece that they've been told their whole lives they should want and have, it's almost like life has no purpose.

• 10:28Michelle Obama?

  And one of the things I want my daughters, I'm trying to deprogram them from that belief that there's a certain way to be a woman Yeah. in this world. Because I don't know what their future is gonna hold. So I don't talk about when you become a mother or when you get married. I say, well, if you find somebody, if you choose that, if that's something you want for yourself, but understand that you can have a beautiful life without all that. Absolutely. You know, you are not less of a person because somebody didn't choose you or you didn't find somebody.

• 11:14Craig Robinson?

  This episode is brought to you by Theraplu. We've partnered with Theraplu to spread awareness about the amazing work they're doing to fight for paid sick days for all workers in America. Meech, don't you remember when Dad didn't feel comfortable taking paid sick days?

• 11:33Michelle Obama?

  Well, I didn't realize he didn't feel comfortable. And just to remind folks, our Dad was a blue collar worker. He worked as a stationary fireman for the water filtration plant for the city of Chicago. So he was a shift worker.

• 11:48Michelle Obama?

  But I do, what I remember is that our Dad never, I can't remember him ever taking a sick day

• 11:56Michelle Obama?

  or a day off other than his assigned vacation days.

• 12:01Craig Robinson?

  Never.

• 12:02Michelle Obama?

  And I didn't know why. I just thought, you know, he just had a great work ethic, which I think he did.

• 12:07Craig Robinson?

  Which he did, but he never, it seemed like he was either never sick, which we know now was impossible.

• 12:13Michelle Obama?

  Well, our father had multiple sclerosis. So I would imagine there were days that he woke up and he probably felt tired. He probably felt a level of exhaustion that came with the disease. But he just pushed through.

• 12:27Craig Robinson?

  He just really just fought through it and didn't want to take any sick days and...

• 12:32Michelle Obama?

  Like too many folks in this country.

• 12:36Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 12:36Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 12:36Craig Robinson?

  Right, right. Theraplu firmly believes that the ability to rest and recover when sick should be a right, not a privilege. And I love that. Therapflu's Right to Rest and Recover campaign was created to help offset the financial burden that Americans without paid sick leave feel when they take a sick day. So far, seven and a half million workers have been impacted by this initiative, and Therapflu is committed to keeping the fight going because no one should have to work sick or choose between their health and their job. Learn more or help someone apply for the fund at therapflu.com/righttorecover.

• 13:19Craig Robinson?

  We are so thrilled that Pine-Sol is a partner of IMO. Pine-Sol has been connected to our family forever. To this day, whenever my sister and I catch the scent of Pine-Sol, we automatically feel better about life. The smell of Pine-Sol has always taken us back to our childhood home. It is amazing how smells can transport you to a place or a moment in time. Another smell that takes me back is cherry blossoms, which always remind me of visiting Michelle in DC. That's why I'm excited for Pine-Sol's newest scent, Cherry Blossom. The cleaning power you know and love from Pine-Sol is available in a

• 14:00Craig Robinson?

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• 14:41Michelle Obama?

  And especially for black women, you know, I mean, we can talk about how hard it is to be chosen in this day and age.

• 14:49Speaker 00

  I love to talk about being the choosers, though.

• 14:52Michelle Obama?

  I know.

• 14:52Speaker 00

  I love, I do. Well, let's talk about that. Well, I think, I do think there's this, this narrative that you have to wait to be chosen.

• 15:00Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Speaker 00

  And what it means to be chosen by a man. And I think I had that, I call it the Carrie Bradshaw complex. You know, growing up with Sex and the City as the kind of the-

• 15:09Michelle Obama?

  Waiting for Mr. Big to show up.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  And that was my Mr. Big. That was my black Mr. Big. And, and I'm so glad that, that in that stage of life, God did not give me what I thought I wanted and needed. Because what I got was what I truly deserve. And I'll tell you, that breakup was the hardest breakup because it represented the, this like-

• 15:32Michelle Obama?

  The breakup with the older guy.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  The breakup with the older guy that I thought I wanted to do it all with, was one of the hardest breakups for me because it was the disillusion of this constructed, concocted dream that had been fed to me, that I embraced as like the only way to do it.

• 15:52Michelle Obama?

  That's what I'm, yeah.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  Right? And it was like this idea that some man is gonna come along and save me and choose me and give me this life. You go to New York, you, you, you live your big fabulous life. And then you gotta find the guy with, you know, the money bags, the guy with, with, with all the things going on. If you think, if you really stop, you're like, wait a minute. And we call ourselves feminists?

• 16:17Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  And we're subscribing to this notion?

• 16:19Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  So it took a lot of unlearning for me to realize that, hold on a minute. I can be that rich, successful man that I was told to marry. I could be that one. And I can choose the kind of partner that is going to complement my life, my dreams, and what I want, and vice versa.

• 16:43Michelle Obama?

  What flipped that switch for you? Was it the breakup?

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Jonathan, the breakup was, was the humbling.

• 16:50Speaker 00

  But also of, I wouldn't just say humbling. It was, it was a moment of empowerment because I decided to lead that relationship.

• 16:57Michelle Obama?

  So what, what stopped you from feeling defeated in that moment?

• 17:02Speaker 00

  I'm sure I felt defeated.

• 17:04Michelle Obama?

  A lot of women will experience a breakup from Mr. Big and they'll think it's me.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:08Michelle Obama?

  Because taking that power back in relationships and dating, a lot of us don't do that. So what, what do you think? Well, got you to a, a better place?

• 17:21Speaker 00

  It wasn't my first time at the rodeo.

• 17:22Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  You know, I had had a couple of relationships before that, that taught me this really important lesson. And I remember this is something that Oprah said, "You walk at the whisper before it becomes a roar."

• 17:38Speaker 00

  I had not done that in the relationship prior to dating this older man. And I thought, the one thing I know for sure is that I will never wait for the roar again.

• 17:51Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  And so one of the contracts that we made when we first came together, because at the, just so you know, just so you know, Mrs. Obama, I did not know the man's age.

• 17:59Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 18:00Speaker 00

  When we started dating and he didn't know my age.

• 18:02Michelle Obama?

  I'm not feeling him, this guy.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  I know, you're like my mama, you're like my mama. My mom, my mom told me this summer, finally told me, she said, "That was one of the hardest times in my life as a mother."

• 18:11Michelle Obama?

  It was hard for her to watch you go through that.

• 18:14Speaker 00

  And I was like, "Mom, you acted like you were fine with it." She was like, "That was an act." That's exactly what that was.

• 18:20Michelle Obama?

  And if she had said something, you would have dated him for another two years.

• 18:23Speaker 00

  That's what she said.

• 18:24Michelle Obama?

  That was the, that was her expertise at work there.

• 18:28Speaker 00

  You guys were talking?

• 18:29Michelle Obama?

  You know, I could feel it.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  You can feel it.

• 18:31Michelle Obama?

  Because I don't even know the dude and I'm mad at him.

• 18:35Speaker 00

  Well, he's out of the picture.

• 18:36Michelle Obama?

  Okay, okay.

• 18:37Speaker 00

  But, but just so we all are clear here, I did not know his age. He didn't know my age until we were further down the line. So we made a pact with each other and we said, he said, actually, "Can you let me know if you're ever not having fun? If, if you're not happy anymore, will you let me be the first to know?" And that coupled with this idea that Oprah, Mrs. Oprah Winfrey has planted in my mind, it allowed me to do these self-check-ins. And the deeper we got into the relationship and the more that I recognized that while I may not want to have a kid today, I can't really envision my life without the experience of becoming a mom. And when I do that,

• 19:20Speaker 00

  I really, I want an enthusiastic partner in that. And I will not have that in this relationship.

• 19:29Michelle Obama?

  You don't want to pull somebody kicking and screaming into parenthood.

• 19:32Speaker 00

  I didn't want that for myself. And so I thought, you know, this is one of those decisions. I am at a crossroads. I can either take what he's willing to give me or I can cut him loose and allow for the possibility to get what I deserve.

• 19:50Michelle Obama?

  Good for you.

• 19:51Speaker 00

  And so I packed up my clothes and I left.

• 19:55Michelle Obama?

  And you were living with him too?

• 19:57Speaker 00

  I wasn't living, I was just staying over there a lot. Mrs. Obama, I have my own apartment, okay? I was an independent woman.

• 20:02Michelle Obama?

  It was like, and you were staying over there?

• 20:04Speaker 00

  No, no, I was climbing in my career. By the way, I did not slow down in my career for this relationship. I kept climbing and, you know, so I'm very proud of myself for that. I kept on my path. But I decided to leave that relationship to allow for the possibility that it gets better. And do you know that I reunited with Jonathan? This kid from church.

• 20:28Michelle Obama?

  The church boy.

• 20:29Speaker 00

  The church boy from back there. The good old church boy.

• 20:32Michelle Obama?

  That you overlooked, that you looked right past Jonathan.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  I sure did, I sure did, Mrs. Obama. And now, we met up, he happened to be in town. We met up and I just remember being like, where did he grow up?

• 20:45Michelle Obama?

  Really?

• 20:46Speaker 00

  Where did he grow up?

• 20:46Michelle Obama?

  Jonathan, wow. I have always tried to tell, you know, you can't tell your kids anything, but...

• 20:55Michelle Obama?

  There've been some guys in my daughters' lives that I've been like, "Don't sleep on him," you know?

• 21:01Speaker 00

  That part.

• 21:02Michelle Obama?

  I was like, you know?

• 21:03Speaker 00

  The nice ones.

• 21:04Michelle Obama?

  The nice ones, right? What is it about the nice ones that there's an age where you just want something bad?

• 21:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:11Michelle Obama?

  You just want something all wrong.

• 21:13Speaker 00

  What is that? I had that. I had that syndrome. But we gotta go on our own journeys. And, you know, I will say, I'm so grateful for all the frogs that kissed before meeting what truly is my version, not to be cliche and cheesy, but my version of-

• 21:29Michelle Obama?

  Your real Mr. Big.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  My real Prince Charming.

• 21:31Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  And I will tell you, right away, I felt at home.

• 21:36Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 21:37Speaker 00

  I felt my nervous system was calm. It was the opposite of what I felt in these other relationships where it was like,

• 21:45Speaker 00

  my heart is pounding. It wasn't that. It was this peace.

• 21:49Michelle Obama?

  Say that again.

• 21:51Speaker 00

  No, really.

• 21:52Michelle Obama?

  For the people in the back. Because, well, to share my experience meeting Barack, right?

• 21:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I want to hear that love story.

• 22:00Michelle Obama?

  There was frog kissing. And to anybody out there, no, you're not a frog, but not the right person.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  Right.

• 22:08Michelle Obama?

  But when I met Barack, and I also think that dating is important.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 22:14Michelle Obama?

  You know, because you've gotta try on some things to know what really fits. Because you might not have been able to appreciate Jonathan had you not dated Mr. Big.

• 22:25Speaker 00

  That part.

• 22:27Michelle Obama?

  So I dated some bigs.

• 22:31Speaker 00

  You had some Mr. Bigs?

• 22:32Michelle Obama?

  Not old, rich people, but the version of the person who just wasn't right. And I knew they weren't right. But because I had those experiences when Barack showed up. And there was, as you described it, this sort of calm. Right? There wasn't this, there was just complete and total honesty and trust. This was a man who knew what he wanted. So there was none of the guessing games that I think we as women get used to playing and, and kind of enjoy it.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:08Michelle Obama?

  Being with somebody where it's a total, I don't know if he likes me and maybe he'll call.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  Right.

• 23:13Michelle Obama?

  You know, we kind of sometimes get into that game and we mistake that game for love.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 23:19Michelle Obama?

  But it's a game and it's an uncomfortable game if we're honest with ourselves. Does he, does he really like me? Did he call? I don't know what that meant. Nothing is straightforward. Everything is ambiguous.

• 23:34Michelle Obama?

  And I met somebody who was unambiguous and clear. And that feeling was new, but it was the right feeling to look for. You know, you shouldn't have to wonder about your goals and visions with the person that's right for you. You should be able to have real clear conversations upfront and say, this is who I am. Take it or leave it. Who are you? You know, do you believe in marriage? Do you want kids? Let's not play a guessing game.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 24:03Michelle Obama?

  And I try to advise young women in my life not to play games in dating. Ask the questions you need to know and don't be embarrassed by it. Barack was that comfort zone for me. And it was very clear, very early that he was different. And different is good. You know, different is not about games because I didn't want to deal with somebody that I couldn't talk to, that I couldn't trust, that I didn't know what he thought, that wasn't a good communicator.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 24:36Michelle Obama?

  And sometimes we look right over those people who are in front of us because we're drawn to the game.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 24:44Michelle Obama?

  Woo!

• 24:45Speaker 00

  You're preaching.

• 24:46Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  So did you, to speak about these things early on in your dating life, did you ask, do you want kids? Did you ask, do you want to be married?

• 24:57Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. And actually, Brock, when we first started dating, would, you know, he was like, well, I'm not really sure if I believe in the institution of marriage.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  Oh, he was one of those?

• 25:08Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, and I was sort of like, really? You know, well, what's that for? And I didn't, you know, it wasn't consistent with, you know, who he was, but he would poke at that, right?

• 25:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:19Michelle Obama?

  But he was also the person who asked me out, who said, we should date. I was very hesitant about dating because we worked at the same law firm. I was a year, he's older than me, but I went to law school and was practicing. Like, he hates for me to say I was his mentor.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, say it, you were his boss.

• 25:39Michelle Obama?

  I wasn't his boss because I wasn't senior enough to give him assignments, but I was sort of helping him adjust. And I sort of thought, well, I shouldn't date the guy that I was assigned to help, right? I thought that'd be tacky, especially we were two of a few black people in the firm.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 25:59Michelle Obama?

  We both went to Harvard. It just felt a little cliche.

• 26:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:03Michelle Obama?

  And I didn't want to be that associate, right?

• 26:05Speaker 00

  Right.

• 26:06Michelle Obama?

  But he was like, who cares? We got to know each other for the first month of the summer. And he was like, you're cute, you're smart, you're funny. Let's go on a date, you know? I was like, no, we shouldn't go on a date. That doesn't seem right. But he was like-

• 26:23Speaker 00

  He knew what he wanted.

• 26:24Michelle Obama?

  He knew what he wanted, right? And he wasn't worried about the job or appearances. He was like, this makes sense to me. And you don't get that a lot.

• 26:32Speaker 00

  That's romantic.

• 26:33Michelle Obama?

  You know, or I know I didn't get that a lot from guys.

• 26:37Speaker 00

  You know, same.

• 26:38Michelle Obama?

  I mean, you're guessing for the first few months. And I was like, well, why am I drawn to that and not drawn to the truth? Right? So I chose the truth with Barack. I chose to be with somebody who came to me on clear terms. And so as a result, that's how our relationship started. We were already friends. So we could have these conversations. And I knew he didn't mean the thing about marriage. But his proposal, which I didn't know was coming, goaded me into this argument about marriage. So Barack had studied and taken the bar.

• 27:21Michelle Obama?

  And we had been dating for all through his law school year. So it was about two years. So he took me out to a nice dinner, our favorite fancy restaurant in Chicago, under the guise of celebrating that he finished the bar. Little did I know that he had asked my parents, had gotten a ring. And so we're sitting at dinner. I'm thinking that it's a regular date. Midway through the entree, he starts talking about not believing in marriage again. And I was like.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  Don't tell me that's how he went into his proposal. No.

• 27:56Michelle Obama?

  So he was winding me up. And of course, I, you know, I was just not feeling it. So I just went off on him. And I was like, this isn't gonna last. And if you don't believe in marriage, don't waste my time. And, you know, and I don't understand, and I wouldn't have kids out of wedlock. You know, and we had had this conversation. But he was just winding me up, you know? And I think I was being wound up all through the entree.

• 28:20Speaker 00

  What a way to get to your heart.

• 28:22Michelle Obama?

  Then, and he was, he was not arguing back. He was just sitting there with his finger on his temple, just letting me go. And then the waiter brought this tray with a silver tray and opened it up. And there was the ring. And I was like, what? You didn't just wind me up to, and he got down on one knee in the restaurant and asked me to marry him. So he loves to tell that story because he was like, that shut you up, didn't it?

• 28:52Speaker 00

  I love it. Let's give him a round of applause. You know, I love that so much. And I mean, so romantic. And the two of you are the, you guys are goals. You know that. Your marriage goals.

• 29:04Michelle Obama?

  Well, that, but that's why I'm always like, we have trouble too.

• 29:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:07Michelle Obama?

  Because even when you have hashtag couples goals, marriage is hard.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 29:13Michelle Obama?

  And it takes work. And I love him dearly. And I want all couples to understand that, that marriage is work. And it's work every day. Being a parent is work.

• 29:24Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 29:24Michelle Obama?

  As much as you want it.

• 29:26Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 29:26Michelle Obama?

  You know, bringing children into the world, the ones you want it, you know, it'll be the hardest thing you will ever do because it's the most important thing that you will ever do. And I don't want anybody to be blinded by that. So that's why I talk honestly about not just the highs, but about the challenges.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 29:45Michelle Obama?

  Because I think people, young couples give up too quickly when things get hard.

• 29:50Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 29:51Michelle Obama?

  And it's like, this is hard. This is a hard thing to do, melding two lives together, which is why you've got to be real clear in your choice.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 30:01Michelle Obama?

  You know?

• 30:01Speaker 00

  Because even when they're the right committed man and you're aligned and you're in love.

• 30:07Michelle Obama?

  And all of it.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  It's still hard.

• 30:10Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  So why make it harder going into the relationship where you aren't on the same page about what you ultimately want?

• 30:16Michelle Obama?

  That's exactly right.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  So I'm curious, I want to ask you because it sounds like you were the driver in getting the answers to those questions in the dating phase.

• 30:24Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:25Speaker 00

  What gave you the confidence, though, to really put that question to him and to be willing to walk away if he was not in alignment with you?

• 30:32Michelle Obama?

  I think like you, it was the other frogs, other relationships, coming out going, why didn't I, why did I let that happen?

• 30:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:40Michelle Obama?

  Why didn't I say more? Why didn't I, why wasn't I clearer? That's why I believe in dating.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:46Michelle Obama?

  Because you need. Practice, you know, you're gonna get some stuff wrong. You're gonna, you, you need to grow up just trying some things on, you know, and it, and, and be okay with things failing, be okay with getting your heart broken. Because you need to know that you can recover from that, too. So I think that it was practice made perfect. So I was a little more ready, a little more sure of myself. Didn't have all the conversations, so, you know, there's still things I look back on 30 years and I was like, mm, did I agree, did I agree to something in this marriage that I wouldn't have, when I was 30, that I've got to renegotiate? And the answer is yes. Because each decade, we are learning something different.

• 31:31Michelle Obama?

  So you're never gonna get it perfect. But I think knowing that this was a serious relationship and that this, that Barack was a serious person, I felt he left space for the questions. He wasn't defensive about the questions. And maybe that's, that's another cue for folks like Alice. You know, you don't want to be in a relationship with somebody that you can't have really good, hard, honest conversations. You don't have to get married to the person. But if you're dating, sleeping with somebody, if you're wasting your time with them, or investing your time with them.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  She said wasting your time.

• 32:14Michelle Obama?

  You know, then you should be with somebody that you can talk to. And if they're making you feel like you're intrusive or needy, that's a sign. I know that we lived together for a year before we got engaged. And I told Barack, I said, it makes economic sense for us to live together, but just know that this isn't a forever thing. I don't, I don't want this to slip into years and years of living together. You know, so it's like, if you, if we're moving in together, then the next phase has got to be, we're getting engaged and we're gonna get married.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  How did he respond to that?

• 32:52Michelle Obama?

  He was like, yeah, makes sense, makes sense. Which is why goading me with that question was a little annoying on our engagement night, because I was like, dude.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, we already covered this.

• 33:02Michelle Obama?

  We covered this. But no, we were in alignment. And I knew that. And so, everything felt right. I felt safe with him. I felt like there wasn't anything that I couldn't talk to him about. And that's how you're supposed to feel.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 33:19Michelle Obama?

  And sometimes we have to ask ourselves as women and people, are we not asking the question because we don't really want to know the answer? We want to be in pretend land.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:31Michelle Obama?

  So I won't bring it up because the status quo feels okay. It's comfortable, so I will pretend like he didn't just tell me he didn't want kids. Like you said, when they tell you who they are, believe them.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  The first time.

• 33:46Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, and don't be afraid of the question. And I want young women in particular to practice this part of their voice in relationships. To just practice asking for what you want and being clear. But then you gotta be okay with not getting the answer that you want. And I'd rather practice that feeling, right?

• 34:11Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 34:11Michelle Obama?

  You'll survive it.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 34:13Michelle Obama?

  No, it's okay to hear no. It's okay to hear, I don't love you like that. It's okay to hear, we don't believe in the same things, or I think you're cute, but I don't want to get married. Know it early.

• 34:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 34:26Michelle Obama?

  Figure it out sooner. You know, press it and don't feel like it makes you look desperate. All it is, is you just want clarity.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 34:36Michelle Obama?

  It's okay to want clarity, and that's different from being desperate.

• 34:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 34:41Michelle Obama?

  There's nothing wrong with clarity. Do not live your life in a fog. That's what I would tell Alice, you know? When you're 30 years old and you want things to happen, then don't waste your time with people and just ask the question.

• 34:55Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 34:55Michelle Obama?

  It's like, who are you? What do you want? What do you want out of life? Why don't you want kids? Let's have those conversations sooner rather than later. Now, that doesn't mean having them on the first date.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:06Michelle Obama?

  Right, you know, that might be a little too soon. But once you get to the point where you think you want to spend time with somebody, they should be able to handle these questions, I believe.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  Absolutely. One thing that we haven't touched on that I think is embedded in Alice's question is this idea that there's an expiration date on her value as a woman and as a prospective partner. She's 30.

• 35:32Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 35:33Speaker 00

  She's realizing, okay, I wasted six years with this one.

• 35:36Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 35:36Speaker 00

  And I think that comes with this pressure to close the deal.

• 35:40Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  Because society has told us that there's an expiration date on our value and that at some point, men aren't going to want us and they're going to go for the 25-year-old girl when they're 50. And listen, that's a phenomenon. We can't ignore that.

• 35:54Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  But that doesn't have to define your value. And Alice has made the decision for herself that she wants to be a mother. So free yourselves to get what you really want in a life. And I truly believe that's true love.

• 36:09Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 36:10Speaker 00

  That is true love. That is setting someone free to live the life that they really, really want. There's no higher love than that. And just because it comes to an end naturally, doesn't mean that that time wasn't well-spent and that you didn't learn and grow during that time. And it doesn't mean that it's a failure.

• 36:29Michelle Obama?

  And live, right? Don't wait on life to come to you.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:43Craig Robinson?

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• 37:27Craig Robinson?

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• 40:24Craig Robinson?

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• 41:08Craig Robinson?

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• 41:11Speaker 04

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• 41:19Michelle Obama?

  I would tell Alice, move on from this guy.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:24Michelle Obama?

  And, and don't just jump into the next thing. Work on you.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 41:30Michelle Obama?

  Work on your dreams, your goals, your aspirations. Build your life.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:36Michelle Obama?

  Independently. Use this time to make sure you're whole.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:42Michelle Obama?

  You know, and understand yourself because that's, I think, why finding love later can be better because you know more about who you are.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  That part.

• 41:54Michelle Obama?

  So at 30, Alice has got a lot of time to keep growing.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:00Michelle Obama?

  And let love find you.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:03Michelle Obama?

  As you grow. And if it doesn't, then you've just grown.

• 42:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:08Michelle Obama?

  You know, you're still at a good place.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 42:11Michelle Obama?

  You know, you might not have, love might not have found you, but you didn't stop your life waiting for it.

• 42:16Speaker 00

  Yep. I will tell you, my mom had said to me from the time I was a little girl, a healthy relationship takes two whole people. Who gotta be whole on their own. And that is something that was like etched into my brain so, so early on that when I finally was mature enough, after the delusion, I lived in the, one thing I want to admit to right here is that I did live in that delusion for a little bit.

• 42:42Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 42:42Speaker 00

  I heard the answer, but I was a little bit like, la la la la.

• 42:45Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. We all have done that in our lives.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  So it's okay, Mrs. Obama, you're not judging me?

• 42:51Michelle Obama?

  No, not at all.

• 42:51Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 42:52Michelle Obama?

  Because I can, I can see those moments in myself where I was like, I'm gonna make him love me. And, you know, so we all go through that.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:01Michelle Obama?

  That's why you keep moving through it.

• 43:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. But after that part, after the delusional chapter.

• 43:06Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, right.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  Then I moved into this part where I really did fall in love with myself before I fell in love with Jonathan.

• 43:13Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  In that in-between time. That in-between time is truly what I think set me up for a lifelong relationship. I think before that point, I would, I would fold into the relationship.

• 43:28Michelle Obama?

  That part, yeah.

• 43:29Speaker 00

  You know, and I would become what was good for the relationship. But this time that I spent in between Mr. Big and my actual husband, I cut all my hair off. It was so cliche. I chopped it off. I decided I'm gonna live on my own for the first time. I'm gonna make dinner for myself every night. I signed up for a half marathon. I ran the half, the Brooklyn half.

• 43:54Michelle Obama?

  Wow.

• 43:54Speaker 00

  And along that timeframe, Jonathan came around. And at that point, I was like you, I was like, I'm not really rushing into this. Cause I'm liking this. I'm doing me right now. And I'm tired of being in these, being a serial monogamous. And it's almost like I've had these many marriages.

• 44:12Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  And I was like, I just wanna be, I wanna be married to me.

• 44:15Michelle Obama?

  And Jonathan had to catch up with you.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  And you know who was waiting for me at the end of the finish line at that half marathon?

• 44:22Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 44:22Speaker 00

  With Gatorade and

• 44:24Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, wow.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  And some oranges. It was Jonathan. And he waited for me and he said, don't worry, I'll be here. And it's that type of partner that's like so, that knows it's you. That will wait for you, that will show up for you, that feels like home. Like, that's the guy that you marry ultimately. So I want that, I want that for, I want that for Alice. I want that for her. It's okay, six years with someone, you're 30, that's fine.

• 44:51Michelle Obama?

  That's okay.

• 44:51Speaker 00

  But like, what do you want out of life? Make space for that.

• 44:55Michelle Obama?

  Alice is wondering whether there are men who change their minds. I mean, yeah, people change their minds in life, for sure, you know? I definitely know people who thought they'd never get married or thought they didn't wanna have kids. So it is possible. And if he's saying no, he can change his mind, but do you really wanna wait?

• 45:20Speaker 00

  Right, how long are you willing to wait?

• 45:22Michelle Obama?

  Are you willing to wait to see if he would change his mind? I, I'm just afraid for her for what that question means. It's like she's wanting to wait, she's hoping. If she were my daughter, I would go, mm, mhm, really? Uh, why don't you, why don't you date? Why don't you just keep the door open? You know, have you thought about that? I'd probably ask a question like that.

• 45:49Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 45:50Michelle Obama?

  So I don't know, what do you think?

• 45:52Speaker 00

  I, have I ever seen a man change his mind about having children? I don't think that I have.

• 46:01Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:04Speaker 00

  I don't think that I have. I wasn't willing to wait around and see. Let me put that in my own situation.

• 46:11Michelle Obama?

  One of the things I say to people as they're thinking about picking a mate, you gotta think about like a partner is a member of your basketball team.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  Ooh, I like this.

• 46:23Michelle Obama?

  It's like if you were picking players to play on a team, you wouldn't just pick a shooter. Everybody has to be able to do it all.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 46:32Michelle Obama?

  Each person in a couple has to be able and willing to do it all.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 46:37Michelle Obama?

  So you don't want to marry a man who's like, I don't cook. It's like, well, what happens if I can't cook?

• 46:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:45Michelle Obama?

  You know?

• 46:45Speaker 00

  How are we gonna survive?

• 46:46Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, you just don't do laundry. Life is so unpredictable and complicated. And then add in kids, right? If you're married to a man that doesn't do house chores, and you've had given birth, and you've had a cesarean, and you can't be on your feet, or heaven forbid, you have a difficult pregnancy, and you come home and he can't do anything? He's never been grocery shopping, you know? Or if you're the woman and you can't balance the checkbook because you've left that to him? Life is too complicated for two partners not to be real equals in it, you know? Because you just don't know what's gonna come.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 47:30Michelle Obama?

  You can make decisions throughout the marriage of who's doing what, but everybody's gotta be able to do everything, especially when kids are involved.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 47:41Michelle Obama?

  And so that, you know, you gotta look for a whole person, and you've gotta be a whole person. You know? And I want men to hear this, and I want mothers raising men to hear this too. Teach these men how to be whole. You know? Do not come into a relationship talking about what you aren't gonna do, what you don't believe in, and men and women's roles. I mean, if it works out for you, great, but then don't let life happen to you.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 48:12Michelle Obama?

  Because then what?

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 48:13Michelle Obama?

  You've never learned how to do anything other than the thing that a man is supposed to do? I wouldn't want that dude.

• 48:21Speaker 00

  I'm curious, with you have two daughters who get this, who've gotten this their whole lives. Like, how have you seen this advice play out in your in your child's relationships? And have you been able to kind of see the fruits of all of your wisdom?

• 48:41Michelle Obama?

  There's, you know, I think like your mother, right? You don't know whether they're actually listening to you.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  We're listening. I want to tell you, we're listening.

• 48:50Michelle Obama?

  I'm learning that now because they're now, they're 26 and 23, right? And this is the age where I can see, oh, you were listening.

• 48:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:00Michelle Obama?

  I lecture, I talk, we talk, we talk. That's all I've been doing with these girls, talking and talking honestly.

• 49:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:09Michelle Obama?

  Making sure that they feel like they can ask me anything, which means like your mother, you gotta learn to have that poker face. Because if you get, if you get too involved,

• 49:22Michelle Obama?

  then they don't come back.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:23Michelle Obama?

  So I spend a lot of time, especially when they went away to college and living on their own, conversations are this, really?

• 49:32Michelle Obama?

  Whoa, uh, wow, tell me more, right? It's like, they're like cats. It's like, don't hold them too tight. Don't squeeze them because they'll never come back. I try not to be too judgmental, you know? I try not to be too heavy handed, but I, but I talk to them in the way that I'm talking to you. I share the mistakes that I made. I share the things that work in our marriage without getting them too involved, right? Just making sure they're seeing the good, the bad. They know that I'm human. They, they hear my stories so they feel like they can tell me theirs. And the real learning comes in these kind of conversations, right?

• 50:17Michelle Obama?

  Choices that they're making so far are ones that I'm like, okay.

• 50:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:22Michelle Obama?

  All right, not, not always perfect, but watching them turn the corner and understanding their worth. So I just want my girls to. Be open and to use their voice in relationships. It is scary to let your kids make their own choices and to suffer their own consequences. You know?

• 50:45Speaker 00

  Especially when you know better.

• 50:46Michelle Obama?

  Especially when you know better. Oh, my gosh. It's just like, I've done this. You know, I'm raising my hand in the room. It's like, I know the answer, you guys. Look at me, pick me.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 50:58Michelle Obama?

  I can tell you this. I really do know. And, you know, they have to, they have to hit the wall.

• 51:04Speaker 00

  Ugh.

• 51:04Michelle Obama?

  You know?

• 51:05Speaker 00

  I wouldn't be the mom that I am if I didn't have the kind of mom that I had. And it sounds like you guys are definitely playing from the same mom playbook. Um, which is beautiful.

• 51:13Michelle Obama?

  You're doing good. Well, I think that if we could sum up our advice to Alice, we've had a full-throated conversation. I think, uh, what would you, if you had to give three pieces of advice that summed up what you think Alice should be thinking about? What would you, what would you tell her?

• 51:33Speaker 00

  Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a page out of your book and I'm gonna use an analogy that I just read yesterday that was about writing a book.

• 51:42Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  So basically, making hard decisions about your life is, is kinda like driving a car in the dark with headlights on. You can only see, but so far in front of you. Right? Like, the light only shines just so much in front of you. And you can make the whole trip by just making the best decisions based on what you can see right in front of you. You don't need to be able to see the whole road, um, even when the rest is dark. You can see this much. And so I would say, make the best decision for your life based on what you can see from where you're sitting right now.

• 52:23Speaker 00

  And if you can see that this man doesn't want what you want in the long run.

• 52:28Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 52:30Speaker 00

  It's okay to pivot. And I think your life is going to be full of beautiful pivots.

• 52:37Michelle Obama?

  Hmm.

• 52:38Speaker 00

  You don't have to stay on the road that you're on just because you traveled it this far. You can make a left turn and you don't have to be a ride or die. You don't gotta die, okay? Just to ride, you can say, I've, I've.

• 52:51Michelle Obama?

  I wanna live. I don't wanna ride and die.

• 52:53Speaker 00

  I don't wanna die.

• 52:54Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  So.

• 52:55Michelle Obama?

  What, what, what's the point of being a ride or die?

• 52:57Speaker 00

  What is the point? Cause I don't, I don't actually wanna die. So the ride has been nice.

• 53:03Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 53:03Speaker 00

  To this point, sir.

• 53:04Michelle Obama?

  I'm getting off, right?

• 53:06Speaker 00

  And this is where you can let yourself out.

• 53:08Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  And I'm going that way.

• 53:10Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 53:10Speaker 00

  And I think just allow yourself, and I know it's so scary when you can't see what's ahead.

• 53:15Michelle Obama?

  Hmm.

• 53:15Speaker 00

  And you're like, does this mean I'm gonna be alone forever? Will I ever find somebody that loves me this much? We've invested so much time, like I overstand all of that. Cause I have lived it multiple times.

• 53:26Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 53:26Speaker 00

  But you gotta just keep making the best decisions based on what's right in front of you. And trust that what is in the dark will come to the light. And it could be even more beautiful than you could ever imagine. So that would be my closing statement.

• 53:39Michelle Obama?

  I, I love that. And your mom is gonna hear this podcast conversation and you know what she's gonna say.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  What is she gonna, she gonna say, oh, Lord.

• 53:49Michelle Obama?

  No.

• 53:49Speaker 00

  You told your business to the whole world and to Mrs. Obama.

• 53:52Michelle Obama?

  She is gonna say, wow, you know? I knew, I knew Laney had it in her, you know? She was listening all this time, you know? And that's the, the beauty of parenthood. That's some of the proudest moments you'll have as a parent.

• 54:08Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 54:08Michelle Obama?

  Um, and for Alice, if, if motherhood is, is something that she wants, then I wouldn't give it up. I, I wouldn't give up that, that, that dream. Um, not at 30, you know? I would, I, I want Alice to know she's young. There is time. People are becoming mothers later in life. I would encourage her to look at freezing her eggs. Um, just give herself some time, but do not settle.

• 54:39Michelle Obama?

  Do not try to force somebody into a life that isn't for them. Because marriage and family is hard enough. So you want to do it with somebody who wants what you want as much as you want it.

• 54:52Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 54:52Michelle Obama?

  And you shouldn't have to talk somebody into your dream. Ask for what you want. Find out the information you need. Don't allow game playing to to take over the dynamic of the relationship, especially as we get older. We just don't have, ain't nobody got time for that.

• 55:10Speaker 00

  Ain't nobody got time for that.

• 55:11Michelle Obama?

  So find out what you need to know. And if you're with the right person, those questions won't be intimidating. And if they are, that's a sign that that person's not for you. If they can't answer some basic questions, if you can't have some good conversations about life and expectations, then that's a cue that just date them. Don't marry them.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:31Michelle Obama?

  You know? But Elaine, thank you so much for, this was, this filled me up. I'm really proud of the the woman that you have become. So thank you for taking the time.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  Ah, thank you for the joy of being able to share some of these stories with you. And yeah, I just feel so blessed by this conversation. My heart is so full. You got me out here about to cry. I don't know if it's the hormones.

• 55:57Speaker 00

  But thank you. This was such a beautiful conversation.

• 55:59Michelle Obama?

  Well, I'd love to get you back.

• 56:00Speaker 00

  Thank you so much.

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