E137 - Dr. Will Bulsiewicz: “Your Gut is Wiser Than Your Mind!” - Science of Intuition, Mood & Microbiome

Leading gastroenterologist, Dr. Will Bulsiewicz, delves into the fascinating world of the microbiome and its profound impact on our health. He discusses the gut-brain connection, and reveals how our intuition and gut feelings are intertwined with it. He shares insights into the best diets for gut health, the influence of the nervous system on it, and it's impact on our mental health. Ultimately, Dr. B emphasizes the power of human connection and spiritual health in fostering a thriving microbiome. Try MUDWTR & Get Up to 43% off + a free frother: https://mudwtr.com/knowthyself Andrés Book Recs: https://www.knowthyself.one/books ___________ 0:00 Intro 2:50 The Magic of the Microbiome 9:30 You Have the Power to Change Your Biology 10:46 Modern Living is at Odds with Health 13:57 The Gut/Brain Connection 18:15 Reality of Intuition & Gut Feelings 26:10 Pregnancy & The Microbiome 30:19 Human Connection and our Microbiome 32:58 Ad: MUDWTR - Energy & focus without the jitters 34:15 The Best Diet for Your Gut? 41:00 How the Nervous System Influences our Gut 46:55 Link Between Unresolved Trauma and Gut Issues 50:52 Correlation of Mental Health & Digestion 58:37 Fecal Transplants 1:02:51 How Antibiotics Destroy the Gut 1:07:35 Why Diet is Invaluable for Healing 1:11:34 Vegan vs Carnivore Diets 1:15:41 Importance of Fiber in Our Diets 1:28:30 The Best Things You Can Do for Your Gut 1:37:56 Danger of Glyphosate 1:41:15 Fasting, Cleansing, and Parasites 1:48:19 How Alcohol Ruins the Gut 1:54:20 Skin Health Conditions 1:59:15 Power of Human Connection & Spiritual Health 2:03:45 Conclusion ___________ Episode Resources: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theguthealthmd/ https://38tera.com https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ4wglCWTJeWQC0exBalgKg https://www.knowthyself.one Spotify & Apple: https://open.spotify.com/show/4FSiemtvZrWesGtO2MqTZ4?si=d389c8dee8fa4026 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/know-thyself/id1633725927

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I grew up hearing about how genetics ruin everything. I'm here to say that there's an opportunity to change that. So here's the thing. The microbiome is basically a community of microorganisms. This impacts our digestion, our metabolism, our mood, our cognition. I don't think that there's an element of the human experience that isn't in some way connected back to our gut microbiome. The problem is, if the root of an issue is not addressed, they will get worse. It's amazing to see people who have tried everything within the conventional healthcare system failed and discover that there is something that's been affecting them. And if you address that, healing happens so naturally. So we've been kind of alluding to this, but let's just get very direct with it. To me, if there's only one thing that I would want people

• 0:43Speaker 00

  to take away from this show, this is it right here. I think that nature is way smarter than we are as humans. The beauty of it, the intelligence of it, to me, this is better proof of a higher power than anything that I can see out there.

• 1:03André Duqum?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. Today, we are joined by a leading health gut expert and gastroenterologist and New York Times bestselling author. So often on this podcast, we explore themes around what it means to be filled with knowledge and live a life of wisdom. And a huge part of that, that's inextricable from being human, is our gut, our gut intuition, our gut feelings, our gut health, and how they're all enmeshed into one human being that is us. And our guest today, Dr. Will Bostwick, is going to be able to help us guide and give us information to make the most of our gut. And so our gut is so intertwined in our mind, our mood, our longevity, and life at large. And I'm excited to dive into all the nuance. Thanks for being here, man.

• 1:48Speaker 00

  Oh, amazing. Thank you for having me.

• 1:50André Duqum?

  If somebody's just tuning into this episode, and as often people do when they listen to podcasts, they ask themselves, what can I ought to be expecting to gain from this episode in particular? What's the promise of tuning into this episode and why people should stick around?

• 2:03Speaker 00

  The promise is that we're going to be unpacking the newest frontier of science that is changing the way that we think about the human body. And I don't think that there's an element of human health, but also the human experience, that isn't in some way connected back to this, our gut, our gut microbiome. And so the value that a person gets is that by nurturing health within this part of our body, this part that's not even human. You can become superior, not only in terms of your health, not only in terms of how you feel, but also I think it makes you feel more aligned with your nature. This is who you are.

• 2:41André Duqum?

  The more that I've been diving into researching, prepping for this podcast, getting into your work more, there are so many avenues to explore. And so I want to kind of segment a few out. First, starting with the very simple question of what is the microbiome fundamentally?

• 2:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, so this world that we live in, it started with single cellular organisms that are so small that we can't see them with the naked eye. And we eventually evolved to being more complex, which is you and I. But these microbes, they this entire time have been everywhere, covering everything. And so from the very beginning of us as humans, we've always had our partners, which are these microbes. The microbiome is basically a community of microorganisms, mostly bacteria, but it also includes things like yeasts, these things called archaea that we could talk about if you want to, potentially parasites,

• 3:33Speaker 00

  and then viruses. And you take the entirety of that and acknowledge that they're covering us from the top of our head to the tip of our toes, then our nose and our mouth. They're most concentrated inside of our large intestine, which is our colon. And they have basically inserted themselves into human physiology, where in order for our body to function appropriately the way that it's supposed to, we need them. And we need them to do their job. And they equally need us. So this symbiotic relationship impacts our digestion, our metabolism, our

• 4:12Speaker 00

  immune system, our mood, our cognition, and even the way in which we express our genetic code. So, you know, if you take a step back and you think about what I just said, digestion, access to nutrients, that's life. And metabolism, immune system, I should add hormones, mood and cognition. This is like, pretty much everything that matters in terms of human physiology.

• 4:39André Duqum?

  Yeah, so fascinating how our sense of human agency is so directly affected by this. Can you give us a picture of like how vast the microbiome is in and around us? Like when we say we're made up 95% like from the genetic code is made up of these, of this microbiome. I'm curious what the first individuals who are discovering even like, you know, at the microscopic level, the amount of quote unquote beings or life forms, or whatever you want to call them, exist in and within us. It really like dissolves the idea of being a separate self. Rather, we are an interdependent community that's

• 5:20André Duqum?

  always walking and we are a living ecosystem, which is so different in understanding. So how vast is this microbiome?

• 5:28Speaker 00

  Ecosystem is absolutely the right way to describe this. Like it literally is an ecosystem. And the same rules that apply to the Amazon rainforest or the Great Barrier Reef apply to what's happening inside of your body right now and throughout the day. So the vastness of it, the numbers are staggering and it's very hard for the human minds to sort of pull this together and comprehend it. But let's, so let's break it down this way, that there are in your colon, 38 trillion microorganisms, again, mostly bacteria. All right. 38 trillion. You only have 30 trillion human cells. So at a minimum, you are less than 50% human. If we take away your red blood cells, right, and we take

• 6:13Speaker 00

  away your platelets, these are things like, these are not the classic cells that nerds like me, me think about or learn about in biology. Like to me, a classic cell has a nucleus and Golgi complex and all these things, right? So if you take away the red blood cells in the platelets, you're about 10% human and about 90% microbial. And then when we get into your genetic code, it's actually even more profound. So you started to allude to this, which is that, you know, the word microbiome is actually referring to this genetic code that's actually functional and active as a part of our body. And when we look at the, the entire landscape, if, you know, there were 200 pieces of DNA.

• 6:56Speaker 00

  199 of them would come from your microbiome and only one of them would come from your human DNA. So it's like so wildly outnumbering. And to me, I actually, what I, what I hear in this is actually a story of hope and opportunity. Because heck, I feel like I grew up hearing about how genetics ruin everything, right? That like we're born a certain way, the code that you receive from your parents, there's nothing you can do about it. And in some way, that's going to predict or determine the entirety of your life. And the beauty of what I'm describing to the listeners right now is that actually, that's not the dominant

• 7:41Speaker 00

  part of your body. Yes, that is a part, but that is not the dominant part of your body. And this other part, the microbiome, is constantly changing, constantly adapting to the choices that we make. So we actually have this profound control over our ability to change it, to shape it, and to turn it into what we want it to be. So if you're not satisfied with where you're at in terms of your health, I'm here to say that there's an opportunity to change that.

• 8:06André Duqum?

  It is an important reminder that we are an ever-changing process. And I heard you mention on another podcast that there's 100 billion stars in a galaxy. We have then over 100 galaxies worth of stars of these microbes in our gut, which is, it's just unfathomable to think about like how many there are within us.

• 8:29Speaker 00

  380 complete Milky Way galaxies full of stars. Take all of the stars, pull them, put them into a ball and do it 380 times into the colon. That's the number of microbes that you have living inside of you right now. So and everything that you put into your mouth is going to come into contact. With this ecosystem and the choices that you make today will start to shape the microbes that are dominating within your ecosystem by tomorrow. So, and that's not to, that's not to make it sound like, hey, you can change your diet today and by tomorrow you've fixed all of your issues. It's more so to say though, that the changes that you're looking to make, they will start

• 9:13Speaker 00

  to happen immediately. And it's just a matter of reinforcing those changes over time.

• 9:18André Duqum?

  How important is the realization that we are an ever dynamic changing process rather than a fixed solids genetically predestined self? How important is that reminder?

• 9:29Speaker 00

  I've been thinking a lot about like, where do we come from? And what are we as humans? And what, what do we need to be satisfied and, and to be the best versions of ourselves? And I think that there's questions that exist in that, that aren't as, that aren't answered by chemistry. Right? It's more complicated than that. And so, you know, with this, I, I do think about that. We've always had a partnership and a relationship with these microbes. We just didn't know it. And that the way in which we lived and existed for 99.999% of human history was aligned with the needs of those microbes.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  Basically like, you know, we lived in nature. We were adapted to the rise of the sun in the morning, the fall of the sun in the evening. We ate a whole food diet because that's all that existed. Right? We moved our bodies, which now we call exercise because we had to. There were no cars. All of these things, this is just, this is where we came from and this is what we evolved with as humans. But like, I feel like we tend to think about evolution, human evolution as being in isolation. It's not. It's co-evolution.

• 10:46André Duqum?

  I do often think about how at odds directly modern living is with how we ancestrally like evolved to. And there's a lot to unpack there in the sterilization of our environment and from the isolation of community, like all these things that we've been programmed in many ways to kind of fear, which have all these deleterious, you know, health effects. It's insane.

• 11:09Speaker 00

  So I think there's some part of this is like a, there's cultural elements.

• 11:14André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  In the Western world, it's not just America, but like, I think that we kind of take it to an extreme in the United States where, you know, basically like where we come from is we're tribal, right? And that explains our need for social connection. And we have an appetite for that. We're starving for that. And the problem is like, we're suffering right now through an epidemic of loneliness because we have lost those natural connections that exist. And I think that a big part of the reason why is because we've, we've, from a cultural perspective, promoted concepts of individualism, where you think about yourself, you don't think about your tribe, you think about yourself, right?

• 11:57Speaker 00

  And we've also promoted like the, the value of materialism, right? So you and I, we grew up in a time where, at least to me, success was defined as me leaving my parents, becoming independent, buying a house, living in that house. And if I'm really successful, that house is so big that every person that lives in that house could, could isolate themselves in a different corner and not have to come into contact with one another. And that is actually the complete antithesis from where we came from, where, you know,

• 12:37Speaker 00

  as tribal creatures, it was never about money or goods and the accumulation of wealth. It was about your tribe. You were only as good as your tribe in those connections. And that's what allowed you to survive, to thrive. And I think that's a big part of what we lost is like, when we made the choice to stop focusing on each other and like our connections and service to one another. When we made the decision to stop focusing on those things, when we turned inward to what do I need? How can I serve myself? We made a mistake.

• 13:14André Duqum?

  The more that I've grown on my journey, the more I've really, in many ways, recognized the vastness of my own ignorance, like how complex we are as human beings and how dynamic of a process we are, like we spoke to, and how many elements really affect our conscious waking, living experience. And I think, you know, what I try best with this podcast is to bring forth conversations that help people take a sense of responsibility for improving their own sense of agency in their life and being a, you know, in many ways, the change in which others can look at and be inspired by in their life. And so I would love to kind of like zoom in a little bit more on the individual level now. We'll go into some of the health and science things, but first, this notion of the gut and brain

• 13:59André Duqum?

  connection, which we're, you know, familiar with as an aphorism, but like, what is the reality of how our gut and brain are interconnected?

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Interconnected in such a powerful way that I want the listeners to stop thinking about the distance that separates these two organs, because I think that comes into conflict with the way that your body is functioning. We compartmentalize things that aren't really separate in the body, right? Everything is intertwined and interconnected. And the gut is so connected to the brain that they might as well be right next to each other, talking to one another. There's several ways. I mean, we could literally unpack for an hour the many ways in which the gut is talking to the brain. I'll summarize it real quick, that your microbes are producing chemicals, there's many of them, and your microbes are producing chemicals that will ultimately enter the bloodstream. And when they get into the bloodstream,

• 14:48Speaker 00

  within a matter of seconds, your heart will circulate that blood up to the brain. And those chemicals have influence on the blood-brain barrier. So the brain is encapsulated by this protective wall. And that protective wall actually is made up with the exact same cellular architecture as your gut barrier.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  So things that can heal your gut barrier can also heal your blood-brain barrier. And things that harm your gut barrier will also harm your brain barrier. And this is a perfect example of how these things are interconnected, because when something is harming your gut, it will also harm your brain. But also, those chemicals, many of them, many of them will cross the blood-brain barrier and have influence there. Your gut is the second most dominant location in terms of nerves in your body. So you have 500 million nerves within your gut. That is, by the way, five times what you will find in your spinal cord. And that's why we refer to this as the enteric nervous system, or the second brain.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  And all those 500 million nerves are feeling and sensing as we sit here and speak to one another, constantly, not in the same way that my fingertip does, it's a little bit different. But they're feeling, and they serve a purpose. And that information gets basically brought together into the vagus nerve. And the vagus nerve, which is a pair of nerves that basically connect our brain down to our heart, our lungs, and dominantly our gut. The vagus nerve is the information superhighway. It's carrying that, all those 500 million nerves worth of info, back up to the brain, which is influencing brain function. And I think when we talk about things like, I would imagine you want to talk about gut feelings.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  This is where we need to start the conversation, right there, is the vagus nerve, which is feeling and sensing 500 million nerves. So there's, and this is, by the way, just the way in which the gut is communicating to the brain, you know, neurotransmitters. There's over 30 neurotransmitters produced in the gut. We think about serotonin when it comes to our mood. 95% of serotonin is produced in the gut. We think about dopamine in terms of motivation. 50% of dopamine is produced in the gut. So it's this powerful organ in terms of communicating to the brain, and then there's ways in which the brain is communicating back.

• 17:18André Duqum?

  We've become so heady as a culture. And I know a lot of ancient wisdom traditions, cultures, tribes, view the gut as like almost the first intelligence, or more of the first brain.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  It absolutely is. It literally is.

• 17:31André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  That's not, and so, so here's the thing. A tree can't grow without roots.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  Right? The barger of the tree, the more there needs to be roots down below the surface. And so this enteric nervous system, we call it the second brain, but it actually was our first brain, because there was no way for you to actually power the development of human intelligence without first developing this, the gut.

• 17:58André Duqum?

  The more that we like see the different levels and depths of intelligence within us, from the 40,000 neurites that live in our heart that store memory, there's so many different ways in which our body is vastly intelligent that we're not consciously privy to, but nonetheless, we take advantage of. And so when we talk about gut feelings and intuition in a society that really overly pedestalizes the intellect and our thoughts, I would love for you to just elucidate, what's your perspective on intelligence that's derived not just out of our intellect from up here, but lower down in the centers?

• 18:34Speaker 00

  I think that nature is way smarter than we are as humans. And you can think about this however you choose to. You could look at this as purely evolutionary in nature, and that is like, you know, this entire globe and every second of every day, the evolution selecting the choice that is the superior choice and bringing us to where we are today. And yet I look out and I see butterflies and flowers and I ask questions, how did they get here? Why are they here? And there's a part of me that looks at this entire picture and acknowledging that I am a scientist, right? And that I want to use those tools that I've been trained in to apply that and understand.

• 19:17Speaker 00

  But I take a look at this and actually, to me, this is better proof of a higher power than anything that I can see out there, right? The beauty of it, the intelligence of it, there's so many aspects, you know, and then like, this is, this might be hard to relate to and kind of weird, but like, there's been moments where I'm performing colonoscopy and seeing a microscopic world up close because my camera is able to basically zoom in and show things that otherwise you would never see. And that zooming in, that's happening in real time as I'm performing this procedure, you step back and you go, number one, there's an entire world that's happening in this

• 20:00Speaker 00

  little, small spot right there. That's crazy. And number two, gosh, it's beautiful. That's amazing, right? And so, and I think that there's, there needs to be respect for that. And you mentioned a moment ago, ancient traditions. And now, this is not exactly the same thing, but I think that it's worthy of acknowledging this. That, you know, to me, we have like 21st century science, right? Which are like statistical tools, big data, computers, things like this. That's cool. But I also think that there's something to be said for 5,000 years of human observation, right? And collecting that 5,000 years.

• 20:42Speaker 00

  And I think that there's a reason why, when we look at these ancient traditions, but there, we are consistently discovering the accuracy and the intelligence and intuition that existed within those places. Because they were on to something and they were pulling together that human experience over 5,000 years, you know, or so.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  There's something to be said for that. I think we need to respect that.

• 21:07André Duqum?

  What is the reality? And I would love for you to break down to whatever degree you'd like to, like intuition and these gut feelings, how they arise in our daily experience? Like, what is the actual function and how information arises from our body, from our gut? Because it seems like, whether we walk into a room and we catch what we say is like a bad vibe, or, you know, we're in a meeting, or we have an interaction with somebody and something comes to us that we just seem like, it seems in our conscious experience, it just comes from the abyss, like from the darkness of our conscious experience. And the reality is, like, we're exploring how intelligent this body is in ways we don't fully intellectually know yet.

• 21:51André Duqum?

  And so, what is the reality of that?

• 21:53Speaker 00

  The reality is that we're only aware of what we think of within the conscious mind. And yet, we all will acknowledge the existence of the non-conscious mind. That's powerful and has influence over so many aspects of us. And it can be to our benefit, and in some cases, it can actually inflict harm upon us. So I think that, I think that the way in which we think about these things, we need to expand that, you know? Because we, I think we tend to be, like, at least in my world of allopathic medicine.

• 22:32Speaker 00

  We think about things as just being like very cut and dry, right? And what is the science? What does the science say? And that's failing to see this world that exists that clearly is affecting people. And I've seen this firsthand where, and I believe actually that this is something that has affected me in my own life. Where, you know, I'll give you a quick example that when I was at the University of North Carolina, I was doing my gastroenterology training. So I was already a board certified internal medicine doctor. And the University of North Carolina, within my specialty is widely considered one of the top three programs. So like basically us, Michigan and University of Pennsylvania, I would say are the top three. And so I was working with this doctor.

• 23:17Speaker 00

  His name is Doug Drossman and he's both a professor of psychiatry and medicine. And he's brought together these two realms into one place, which is really important because when we talk about health conditions like irritable bowel syndrome, clearly there's more to it than just your digestion. And so in this clinic, we would see like, Andre, a normal gastroenterologist might see 20 or 25 patients in a half day. We would see two. We would spend hours with one person. And these are people that would fly in and they had had every single test that exists and is known to man five times over.

• 23:59Speaker 00

  And what the amazing thing was is that we needed time to nurture and develop a bond, a relationship, because you can't dig into trauma and complex issues on a surface level. Like you have to feel connected to a person to do that. You have to trust them to open up on that, on that level. But like over the course of several hours, we would get there. And it's amazing to see and witness people who have tried everything within the conventional healthcare system failed and to discover that there is something that's been affecting them. And if you address that.

• 24:40Speaker 00

  Healing happens so naturally because they're usually doing everything else right. So, and they just have this one thing that's holding them back. It's chaining them down. And if you could release those chains, it opens it up. So from my perspective, you know, I think that there's this conversation that exists where we have to go beyond just the conscious mind into the non-conscious mind and acknowledge that we're far bigger than this. And I think the non-conscious mind is trying to guide us.

• 25:08André Duqum?

  It's so fascinating to see how it guides us and how if our sense of preferences, our sense of self in many ways, what our cravings are, what we like, what we don't like, our emotional states are all being shaped by this microbiome. It begs the question of who and what am I? Of course, on this living dynamic ecosystem like we're speaking to. But then it invites me also to think of like, okay, in what ways am I being influenced without fully being aware of by this, by this living ecosystem in me?

• 25:39Speaker 00

  You are a reflection of your environment. Yeah. And that's the totality of that environment. And if the environment is diseased, then it translates into disease within your own body. The term that we would use for this is super organism. You are a super organism. It's more, you are more than Andre. You are Andre plus 38 trillion friends that are there. And most of those friends are working and fighting on a daily basis to support you because they want you to succeed. Because if you do well, then they do well. So, and that's, that's a beautiful thing. You know, I think a lot of these things, you mentioned a few things there. You mentioned cravings and intuitions. These are things that there's emerging evidence to suggest that the gut is the origin.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  So, you know, it's, these are, it's not easy to prove, but we have data, for example, on people that crave specific foods where the gut is producing certain chemicals that motivate the consumption of that particular food. Why? Because if you want that food and that's what you need to survive, you're going to try to do something to, to get that person to do it.

• 26:42André Duqum?

  This is like where a pregnant woman will like crave pickles or like chalk. Or I've heard like random things that there's maybe certain. Like mineral makeup that their body's craving.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, like sometimes, sometimes actually going to the point of consuming soil, right? Because the soil has minerals that their body actually needs for healthy pregnancy. And there, there's, there's a natural element to that. It's quite fascinating. But also, um, a woman's microbiome is, is radically and dynamically changing throughout the pregnancy in a way that is designed by nature to support the baby, which is quite fascinating because what advantage does, do the microbes get by supporting this particular baby? I'm not really sure. We could debate that because I suppose like if you were going to say like, what, what do the microbes get? Well, potentially a new home.

• 27:38Speaker 00

  Because when the baby passes through the birth canal, many of those microbes will carry on with the baby and then become the new microbiome for the new person.

• 27:48André Duqum?

  And that is when, that's the first time a baby gets exposed to that world, the microbiome?

• 27:53Speaker 00

  Basically, the, the, uh, the womb is not totally sterile. There is some evidence to suggest that there are some microbes in play, both in the placenta and the baby's being exposed, but, um, really the baby has not been exposed to the outside world until the water breaks. When the water breaks, microbes enter. And then this process really begins. But this, it's interesting to think about that during pregnancy, a woman's body obviously changes dramatically. And I have four kids, so we've, we've been through this many times as a family and, um, the microbiome is shifting in a way that explains the bodily changes that are happening in a woman who's pregnant.

• 28:38Speaker 00

  And the redistribution of weight that occurs is actually explained by the changes that are occurring within the microbiome at the particular time in the pregnancy, like the second trimester. Um, and then during the third trimester, the vaginal microbiome changes in a way where it now starts to resemble the gut microbiome. So it's less like the vaginal microbiome, more like the gut microbiome. And this is basically the vaginal microbiome preparing for birth. So it's just interesting because there's also the story of of human breast milk and how that facilitates our relationship with our microbes.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  Which is to say that human breast milk contains, the estimate is around 200 unique types of these carbohydrates called human milk legosaccharides. And what's interesting is these, these 200 types of human milk legosaccharides, they would just pass through the baby. The baby gets no nutritional value from them at all. But actually, this is breast, the breast milk version of a prebotic that turns into food for the developing microbiome and will feed the development of that microbiome within the child. So just, you know, if you step back for a moment and just acknowledge

• 30:02Speaker 00

  that we evolved, women evolved to have breast milk strategically designed to nurture a relationship between the baby and the baby's microbiome. That's a fascinating thing just to consider by itself, and it's really cool.

• 30:19André Duqum?

  Is everyone's microbiome like vastly different? How, how much in similarity are our microbiomes?

• 30:26Speaker 00

  If you had an identical twin, which I don't, I'm not aware that you do, but

• 30:29André Duqum?

  Okay.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  If you did, the research would suggest that you would only share about 30 or 35% of the same microbes, even though you are genetically identical. You share the same mother. You, in most cases, grew up in the same home, eating similar types of food and things like this. And yet you would only share 30 to 35% and you would be 65 to 70% different. So, and then among the rest of us, like even with your siblings, radically different. The interesting thing, though, is that there's been this new research about cohabitation. The people that we live with, we start to share microbes with them. And one of the powerful things that has been discovered with this is the importance

• 31:15Speaker 00

  of connection with one another. So I'll first share the results and then we can kind of unpack it.

• 31:23Speaker 00

  Basically, what we have found is that, number one, you share the microbes with the people that you cohabitate with. Number two, if you are in a healthy relationship where you feel bonded to one another, you actually get a benefit in terms of your gut microbiome. So people that are in a loving partnered relationship have increased diversity of their gut microbiome. Whereas when people are struggling in their relationship, not the case. And now you could say, well, is this because of sexual intimacy? Are you sharing microbes during sexual intimacy? Well, I think that's at least part of it because when we kiss, we share millions of microbes.

• 32:10André Duqum?

  What comes to mind is just how casual so many people are kissing other people.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  Not realizing there's so many microbes being exchanged. I think that there's a selection that happens before you get to that point, right? So you mentioned earlier intuition.

• 32:24André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  So it's been a while, but because I've been married for some time now. But like, I think back to when I was single and dating. Sometimes you're on a date and they're a perfectly lovely person. And there's just something about it. You're just like, not feeling it. And it's nothing against them. And is that pheromones? Because if it is, pheromones are because you may not actually be able to smell a difference. It's more so that you, but you're detecting it. Pheromones are produced by the gut microbes.

• 32:58André Duqum?

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• 33:41André Duqum?

  and it's amazing. Every single ingredient is 100% organic, non-GMO, gluten-free, sugar-free, and vegan. If you want to try them out, you can head to mudwtr.com slash know thyself and grab yourself a starter kit. Right now, our community gets an exclusive deal, up to 43% off your entire order, plus a free rechargeable frother and even free shipping. It looks like this. Again, that's up to 43% off. Just go to mudwtr.com, M U D W T R dot com slash know thyself. I hope you enjoy.

• 34:15André Duqum?

  So if our experience of life is being shaped in pretty much every single way by the makeup of our microbiome, how does this account for the varying different levels of health advice and diet advice? Because it seems like there's so many people that seem to do well on so many different types of diets. And that's why all this kind of one size fits all health advice doesn't work, and why there's so much disagreement in the health space. So what's the reality of that?

• 34:44Speaker 00

  I, clearly, there is no one size fits all. So anyone who claims that this is the one dietary pattern and everyone needs to follow it, we have to agree that that's just not, it'll work for some people for sure. I do believe that there's basic principles of nutrition that exist that are universally true. So, you know, for what it's worth, like I'm a huge believer in the power of dietary fiber. And it's not just fiber. It's the effect that fiber has on our microbiome. And I can't, I'm never going to be able to shake this. So you'll never be able to convince me that a person is better with zero fiber than they are with a high fiber diet, right? I just believe that that's universally true for us as humans, because our microbes need the fiber to be powered up.

• 35:27Speaker 00

  That being said, like, there's clear, there's clear evidence that

• 35:32Speaker 00

  if you do a randomized control trial, I'm just going to use an example, like this is totally made up. Where you're comparing counterpoints. So one might be a high carb, low fat, plant-based diet against a high fat, low carb, mostly animal-based ketogenic diet. Right? When you enter people into studies like this, depending on what you're looking at, you might find that one is better than the other for some specific health outcome. But the issue is that there, within the study, there will be some people that do really well with one diet and not so well with the other one. And it may be against what the results of the study say. Right? So that study helps us to understand on a population level. But it doesn't answer the question, what's the best diet for Andre? Yeah.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  What's the best diet for the listener at home? So this is actually something that I have been involved with trying to sort out and disentangle. I work with a company called Zoe. And we are super powered up in the UK. Everyone, like all the listeners in the UK, they know what I'm talking about right now. They've heard of Zoe. In the US, we're really just getting started and we're excited about the opportunity to come to the US and do some stuff. But basically, the idea, it looks like this, that if you want to understand the personal nature of diet, you need massive data. You need massive data. And then you take those data points, everything that's in there, and you use what we have today

• 37:02Speaker 00

  that we didn't have 20 years ago, which is super powered computers and artificial intelligence. And within that data set, what we could do is we could, I could, I could create a, like basically your doppelganger, right? An avatar of you in the data that has the same qualities and characteristics as you. And then using the data and using artificial intelligence, ask the question, if I, if I want to make this person as healthy as possible, what would I feed them? And the data allows you to do that. But in order to get there, you need massive data first. So with this company, Zoe, the way that we, the way that we approach this is we send people

• 37:44Speaker 00

  a kit that will allow us to get their microbiome data, which by itself is tons of information. Their microbiome data, they wear a continuous glucose monitor for two weeks. And importantly, during those two weeks, they enter into an app what they're eating so that we can synchronize. This is what they ate. This is what their blood sugar did. Right? And it's very, that's very personalized. And then we collect some additional information about their blood fat and, and we have people enter information to his survey tools. So again, all of this, take all that. That's one person. And now acknowledge that we have over 200,000 people so far have done this. And as we grow, the more people that we get, the better that we can get in refining this and understanding more.

• 38:29Speaker 00

  So, but the, I think that the point though, is that the microbiome is a driving factor for understanding which particular foods are going to work best with our body because it's right in the center of our digestive process.

• 38:46André Duqum?

  I love how you guys are bringing that to the level of the individual and where they're not perfect, but I do see so much value in Eastern medicine through Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, where they do focus on the individual on their healing journey. I think the East and West have definitely a lot to learn from each other. But it makes me think about this idea of like top down versus bottom up. Like we've been speaking to how our, how our microbiome affects our experience and cravings and so much. But then also like the outside world and the relationships that we have and the stress and all these kind of external things are also top down affecting, it's just like the symbiotic relationship. And I'm just curious for you to share how from the outside in and inside out, it's all changing.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's an interesting thing because like we have been kind of discussing how the gut microbes could potentially motivate you to make certain choices. And then, once you make those choices, it sort of reinforces something within the microbiome. So there's sort of a feedback loop that exists there. But I think that the important point is that like if you take a step back, you know, when people think about gut health, and part of this is my fault, to be totally honest with you, where like I come on a podcast and I want to talk about nutrition, right? So it gives the listener the impression that the only thing that influences your microbiome is the food that you eat. I think that's probably the most powerful lever that we have.

• 40:14Speaker 00

  But I want the listeners to understand that the totality of the environment that you live in, exist in, on all levels, is ultimately reflected on some level within this ecosystem, within your microbiome. So, and it's easier to sort of categorize that as like, you know, sleep and exercise and stress levels and how much you clean your home and whether or not you have pets and how much time you spend outdoors and sunlight exposure and like these different things that when you get into the health and wellness world, you tend to hear like we all come at it from our own angle, right? I might come at it from a gut health angle, but we're kind of all talking about the same general stuff, right?

• 40:59André Duqum?

  So what happens to our gut when, let's say, we get in an argument with a partner? Like what's changing on the physiological level in our gut then?

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Right, so there's this tension that exists in the body through our nervous system, where we have sort of a two main ways that our nervous system can be activated. And we don't have total control over that. Like it's not necessarily a choice that you can make. And that is the sympathetic versus the parasympathetic nervous system. So sympathetic, and your listeners may already know some of this, but the sympathetic nervous system is basically adrenaline, right? This is your like, hey, uh, something's happening and I need to step my game up physically to deal with this thing.

• 41:43André Duqum?

  Survive.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  Right, to survive. So like-

• 41:47Speaker 00

  In the day, it was an attack by an animal, right? And today, it's something different, which could be a fight with a partner, right? And the, the counterpoint to this is the parasympathetic, which is rest and digest and restore. And, um, and the problem is that in this moment, so I guess, to answer your question, I mean, I, I, I feel compelled to say that like the world that we live in is making us sympathetic dominant. Right? So there's a lot of triggers.

• 42:23André Duqum?

  In other words, we always, our, our physiology is in a state in which we're trying to survive a lion, but there's actually no lion. It's, it's just perceived stressors.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 42:34André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 42:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. So we're like in perpetual survival mode and constantly activating it. And there's so many things, I mean, anything that's getting your heart rate up and your blood pressure up. Like it could be something so silly and inconsequential as like what's happening on Twitter. But, um, you have a fight with a partner. This is going to activate your sympathetic nervous system. And so what I'm about to describe applies to anything where it's activating your sympathetic nervous system, whether it's a fight with a partner or something else. Your brain releases a hormone called CRH or corticotropin-releasing hormone. And this CRH will spread through the body.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  And in the process of doing this is basically activating this adrenaline response. And that, and that includes, um, uh, literally in the adrenal glands and the release of epinephrine, norepinephrine. So, but there's consequences to the release of CRH. And particularly the place where we pay, the place where we pay the price is within our gut, because it basically will break down the gut barrier, lead to the release of a toxin called lipopolysaccharide into the bloodstream, and inflict harm on the gut microbes. And this is the reason why I think that everyone can sort of relate to this in their

• 44:00Speaker 00

  own way, you know, imagine a stressful event, where do you manifest that physically?

• 44:06Speaker 00

  Some people, it's a migraine headache, which by the way, is also connected to the gut. But for many people, it's in the gut. It's here and it could be a small little thing like you feel it. Could turn into nausea or it can grow into waves of cramping pain that fold you over. And what is happening there is the physiologic consequence of sympathetic overdrive and this CRH release. So when I was in medical school, I remember like on big test days, we were in such a pressure cooker. And I remember on big test days, like literally there was a line at the bathroom door because everyone's gut was upset, everyone had diarrhea.

• 44:49André Duqum?

  Whenever I hear stuff like this, I ask, what is, what is the body doing that's right in this? Like our body is so intelligent and so it's protecting us in some way. Like what is our system trying to do in creating that sense of pain? When we're in that sympathetic state?

• 45:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's always, there's consequences to all choices that exist in nature. Right? So this is us activating the part of our body that is needed for survival in that moment. So what we got is we got, you know, enhanced ability to focus. And we get release of blood sugar into our, into our bloodstream, which powers our muscles, allows us to run faster and you know, things of that, like more of a physical nature. But the problem is like, that's not what we need in, you know, the current 21st century to deal with a lot of the issues that we run into.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  So it's sort of misplaced physiologic benefit. And again, there's always going to be some sort of price that you have to pay. So the price that we're paying in order to get this like ramp up of blood sugar and you know, Increased strength of our of our muscles and the heart pumping and blood pressure up and all these things is actually with the gut, which is basically being sacrificed.

• 46:17André Duqum?

  You mentioned potentially the biggest lever being nutrition and what we put in our mouth that affects our gut and microbiome. But you've also you also mentioned how there's all these other factors. Of course, the environment in which we live is literally informing the environment within us and vice versa. And so I'm just curious about the link between unresolved stressors, unresolved trauma and gut issues.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  This is huge. Yeah, so I think that it's important to start by saying that like, not everything that's bad is trauma.

• 46:53André Duqum?

  Yeah, not all stress is bad.

• 46:54Speaker 00

  Not all stress is bad.

• 46:55André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 46:56Speaker 00

  Stress is good. Stress makes us stronger. Exercise is stress, right?

• 47:03Speaker 00

  Dealing with hard things is good for our body. Trauma is when we overwhelm the body's coping mechanism and it leaves a damage, a scar, a wound that is unhealing and persistent. And so that, to me, is like a different level of dealing with something hard, where you have completely overwhelmed the body and the effects are lingering and they're still there. And typically in the non-conscious mind.

• 47:37André Duqum?

  Would you say in a particular area usually? Because I know like there's the Chinese medicine map that has each organ relating to different emotional, different emotions that kind of store different experiences. But when we're when a traumatic experience happened that is beyond our capacity to kind of process it, and it leaves that emotional residue or scar, I'm just curious, like, where physiologically and how how does it stay and then affect our gut and these different organs?

• 48:05Speaker 00

  Well, so basically, what you what you get is we were talking about this concept of like the corticostrope and releasing hormone, the CRH, when we are in sympathetic, in our sympathetic drive. And what you get is you basically get a swing towards this and a persistence of that. So it's essentially like being in fight or flight mode, but never turning it off. And it may not be as intense as that moment where like, oh my gosh, I almost got into a car accident and almost died. Right? Like, it may not be as intense as that moment. But the fact that there's sort of a persistent, ongoing activation of the body in that way, there's consequences to this. Because basically what I'm saying is that when you're in sympathetic drive, the release of corticotropic and releasing hormone,

• 48:50Speaker 00

  the consequence is damage to the gut. Right? The term that we use for this is dysbiosis. That refers to a damaged gut. Some people call that leaky gut. I'm talking about the same thing. I'm fine with calling it leaky gut if you want to. But it's dysbiosis. And so this is, we are inducing dysbiosis. And the problem is that if you are persistently like damaging the gut, if you are just constantly inflicting harm upon it, how can it heal, no matter what you do from a nutrition perspective and all these different things? So these people, they do their best, many of them, to try to remedy their issue by pulling those levers. Sleep and, sleep and nutrition and exercise. And, you know, and they may like have some sort of

• 49:34Speaker 00

  stress reduction mechanism that they follow. But if you're not directly addressing the issue, that open wound that exists that needs to be healed, then it's going to be hard for you to achieve true healing. And so I think ultimately the attention has to go there.

• 49:51André Duqum?

  It makes sense why there's so many people who continue to have health issues that do all the quote unquote right things and the workouts and the saunas and the cold plunges and the diets. And yet there is this unresolved tension that's still like we're living through. And just think of like everybody, like what it feels like to let go of something. There is like, if we all just focus right now and like letting go some tension in our body, there is this release and also access to more energy. And putting that in reverse is like that fight or flight state or that survival state, just more tension. And it feels like so often we don't realize to the, to the degree we're carrying that tension throughout our life. We don't know what it feels like to actually be at ease within our system.

• 50:36André Duqum?

  And it's really sad, but it also invites the perspective to look at what are those potential stressors that are actually at the core of why there's still dysbiosis in my system?

• 50:49Speaker 00

  110%. I completely agree with that. And it's interesting because you talked about a release of tension. And there are all of these things that we can do that are health and wellness sort of hacks, right? Like breathing, for example, right? There's many different forms of breathing that we could do. And in essence, they all work the same way, which is to flip us from sympathetic back to the parasympathetic. We're activating the parasympathetic nervous system. But there's also these other things that I find to be really kind of cool when you consider this within the framework of the human existence, which is like holding hands, right?

• 51:31Speaker 00

  Or kissing, or cuddling, or things like dancing, or listening to music, right? Why are we so into those things? I love to dance. I'm great to invite to weddings. I'm usually the first guy on the dance floor, but like, why do I love that so much? Why does that just work with my body so well? And it turns out that a lot of these things, there's just this natural release that occurs. But that being said, I don't want to make it sound like it's a bunch of hacks is what you need to fix your issues. I think that for people that have serious trauma from the past, my experience is that we all, myself included, push these things into the corner because they hurt.

• 52:13Speaker 00

  And so you'd rather push it away and just kind of block it out, pretend it's not there. But actually, the right choice is to acknowledge it and heal it. And that may require working with someone who this is their expertise. But by doing that, when you heal that issue, you are unlocking health within your body.

• 52:35André Duqum?

  Is it true that 90% of serotonin is made in the gut? What's the reality to that?

• 52:39Speaker 00

  90 to 95% of serotonin is produced in the gut.

• 52:42André Duqum?

  Interesting. And I'm assuming there's different functions of how serotonin, like people probably relate serotonin to just like what makes us feel good. And I know there's other functions as well. What is, why is that important to know?

• 52:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. So getting back to the intelligence of the body, why would this be? Why wouldn't, why wouldn't it be mostly in the brain? Right? Serotonin is our happy hormone. It affects our mood in a powerful way. It also affects our energy levels and our focus. But it turns out that it also sets the beat of the drum for your gut. So your body thrives with rhythm. Think about the heart. I could take any person, the greatest athlete in the world. If I knock their heart out of rhythm, they will collapse. They can't do anything. Right? And the gut requires rhythm in the same way that the heart does.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  So we know that any change in gut rhythm will affect the microbiome. Deviation towards constipation, deviation, deviation towards diarrhea. In both cases, when the gut is out of rhythm, the consequence is damage to the gut microbes. Serotonin sets that rhythm. So this is the reason why it's produced there. But there's an interesting story because our gut does affect our mood. It's very clear. There is a study called the Smiles Trial, which is a cute name for a study about eating a certain diet to try to improve depression. So they took people who have major depression diagnosed. And they put them on a plant predominant, not, it's not vegan,

• 54:20Speaker 00

  a plant predominant anti-inflammatory Mediterranean diet. And what they found was that the effect on their mood was as powerful as what you would expect to occur if they were to be prescribed medication, but without the side effects and with all of the added benefits that you get throughout the entire body beyond just improving your mood. So it turns out that this serotonin that's produced in the gut, it's not driving mood in your body, but it is a factor. The other thing that's kind of interesting and cool is that serotonin is the precursor to melatonin.

• 54:56Speaker 00

  Melatonin is our sleepy time hormone. Melatonin sets the nighttime rhythm for our circadian rhythm. So we're talking about rhythm. And one of the most powerful things that I've found, I don't know how you feel about this, or if you enjoy doing this, I'd be curious to hear from you. But I like waking up and taking a walk in the morning outside. So getting that natural sunlight. It's clear that sunlight exposure is good for our mood. This is the reason why people get seasonal affective disorder. But also, morning sunlight, and by the way, it will energize you and it will also give you better focus that day.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  Like literally, the first day that you do this, you will feel the difference. But the quite fascinating thing is it may also improve your rhythm in terms of your gut, reducing gut symptoms, allowing you to have that good, healthy morning bowel movement, propelled by serotonin. And when I say propelled, I mean in a good way, like a normal, healthy bowel movement, not diarrhea. So additionally, though, that serotonin gets bio-converted into melatonin. So when we have this serotonin release in the morning through morning light exposure, we are preparing ourselves for sleep that night.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  And you get the melatonin, which helps you to get into a circadian alignment. And what you will find is that roughly 14 hours after you take your morning walk, that night, you will find that you're getting sleepy and you'll get a better night's rest.

• 56:39André Duqum?

  I mean, I agree, I love morning walks too. And it's obvious within the experience of being human, where you start to have this upward spiral and momentum of health that builds, that when you wake up early, because you went to bed earlier the night before and you get that morning walk and that morning light, then your willpower is stronger and you're eating healthier foods and like you just go and you have more energy to exercise and, and deal with positive stress and all of these things. It's, uh, it's really exciting and empowering, looked at that way.

• 57:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, and melatonin's interesting because melatonin, I've always thought of it as just sleep. Actually, it turns out, we have 400 times more melatonin in our gut than we do in our brain.

• 57:23Speaker 00

  So we said 95% of serotonin is in the gut, 400 times more melatonin in the gut. Why so much melatonin in the gut? Well, it turns out that melatonin is active in terms of repairing and restoring the gut barrier and healing the microbiome. So a good night's rest, aligned with our circadian rhythm, is clearly good for our gut health. Everyone would agree with that. But what I'm saying is that part of the reason why it's good for our health is not just that you slept. It's also that when we get ourselves into rhythm, we can get the benefits of this melatonin that's actually being produced in the gut. And, you know, we've alluded to the changes that have occurred in our modern society

• 58:07Speaker 00

  and how that's pulled us away from our nature. This is a perfect example. If you go camping, you know when the sun comes up. It's impossible to miss it because it's going to wake you up. Whereas when you are like in the crypts of your home, you don't see the sun. And you may not, like, the average person spends less than 8% of their day outside. So that's inadequate in terms of being able to activate these mechanisms that we're discussing.

• 58:37André Duqum?

  What is that study about with depression and fecal transplant? I'm curious. What does that reveal about, yeah, what it means to be a happy individual for those that are suffering with different emotional swings and depression? How did that? Yeah, what happened in that study?

• 58:57Speaker 00

  Well, so the gut, I don't want to make it sound like the entirety of our mood is affected by our gut. That's not the case. But there's definitely a connection between our gut and our mood. And we know this because you can transfer a mood disorder from a human into an animal through fecal transplant.

• 59:21André Duqum?

  So they would take what poop from a human, put it in a rat or something? And that rat would get depressed?

• 59:26Speaker 00

  That rat would get depressed. Or if you take a person who has generalized anxiety disorder, and you transfer their poop from a human into a sterile rat or mouse, that mouse or rat will now develop anxiety type behavior.

• 59:39André Duqum?

  And they just transport it into the colon of that creature?

• 59:43Speaker 00

  I think they'd usually do what's called a lavage, which basically means they like to put a little tube down into the stomach, transfer through that tube into the intestines. So it circulates through, so it's not just the colon. But yeah, basically.

• 59:53André Duqum?

  It's an early image. So then it would, in theory, I mean, and also through the study, work in reverse, right? Like a happy individual, take their gut, or you take their poop and you put it in somebody who's not feeling so good?

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  For a human?

• 1:00:07André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  From human to human? That's an interesting idea.

• 1:00:10André Duqum?

  No, I'm curious, like what was?

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  I think that it's possible. We don't know. We don't know. So here, so this is, uh, this is the way that I would unpack this. So fecal transplants in humans. I'm sure you saw the Netflix show where there was someone who was taking her boyfriend's poop. And you didn't see this? Oh, okay. What was the name of it? I don't remember the name of the show, but I'm sure we could dig it up. There was a Netflix show recently where basically one of the main people that was being followed, she was taking her boyfriend's poop and, and putting it, and like taking it.

• 1:00:42André Duqum?

  Did he know about this?

• 1:00:43Speaker 00

  I think he knew and, and she was encapsulating it.

• 1:00:47André Duqum?

  Okay.

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  Um, all right. So from my perspective, I don't love the idea. Let me explain why. So, um, the concern that I have is that we just don't know what the risks are. And we should not trivialize that because in the 1970s, we developed the ability to give blood transfusions. So this was a great thing. People were dying because they couldn't get blood prior to this, right? But the issue is we didn't know for many years that actually we were transferring hepatitis C. Because we hadn't actually died, like detected the existence of hepatitis C at all. And then we went through a period of time in the early eighties where we called this non-A, non-B,

• 1:01:33Speaker 00

  because we knew what hepatitis A and hepatitis B were. We didn't know what this was, but we knew that there was something there.

• 1:01:38André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  We were giving people hepatitis C through blood transfusions. So tons of people who got blood in the seventies and early eighties ultimately had this. So, and we just didn't know that we were doing this. So I tend to take a cautious approach when it comes to fecal transplant to say that we need to study it. Where we are right now is I have actually seen quite miraculous things, honestly, with fecal transplant within the realm of infections. So there's a specific infection called C. diff. And it tends to happen to people after they receive antibiotics. And we are approved, like a gastroenterologist such as myself is approved to provide this treatment

• 1:02:19Speaker 00

  for people that have had C. diff, especially if it's severe or if it's a recurrent C. diff, like you've had it more than once. And I'll just tell you that I've seen some quite miraculous things where a person is like literally at the point where antibiotics are failing them and they might need to have their colon removed surgically.

• 1:02:39André Duqum?

  Wow.

• 1:02:40Speaker 00

  And by giving them a fecal transplant, like in two days, they're fine. And so what's happening there is that antibiotics are the fastest way to medically induce dysbiosis within the body. So like, for example, Cipro, a common antibiotic that we get for urinary tract infections or for diverticulitis, it destroys 65% of the microbes and it's not just bad ones. So you are like totally decimating the architecture of the ecosystem.

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  And then what that creates is sort of a vacuum where this pathogen, C. diff, can rise up and dominate. And then it causes colitis, which is an inflamed colon that bleeds. And I don't want to get too graphic, but the point is like, there's a gnarly colon. And it's extremely uncomfortable and they have diarrhea around the clock plus blood. All right. The, the problem is the damage to the gut ecosystem. It's not the fact that you have C. diff. C. diff was already there and it was not causing an issue. The issue is that you damaged the ecosystem. So when you actually give the fecal transplant, in essence, what you're doing is you're restoring the gut ecosystem. And when you do that, within two days, they're better.

• 1:04:02André Duqum?

  Do you think we're to flip it with antibiotic prescriptions in this country?

• 1:04:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, we definitely are. I mean, I would, I would, I would simultaneously argue that the greatest medical discovery of the last 100 years was penicillin.

• 1:04:19Speaker 00

  And added years to our lives. And at the same time, acknowledging the power, we became seduced by it. And frankly, it was penicillin, which by the way, was discovered and really brought to market during World War II and was a game changer in World War II.

• 1:04:39Speaker 00

  That power is what created the, the healthcare system that we are wrestling with today. Right? Where we built the entire healthcare system around the concept that you could develop through a pharmaceutical company, a pill that can change and influence our physiology in such a powerful way, that that's the way that we would address health is with pills. So I do think that we, in fact, the data are actually very clear that about 70% of the antibiotic prescriptions that are provided are inappropriate.

• 1:05:17Speaker 00

  And there are consequences when we take something that is medically inducing dysbiosis. So we clearly need to pump the brakes on that.

• 1:05:31André Duqum?

  I'm curious your perspective, having worked in the Western medical system, but also I see you have a very holistic approach to understanding the human body. You look at everything in the DSM and how we are so quick to prescribe pills for issues and the link between our gut and our, as we talked to earlier, gut-brain connection and how so much of our psychological woes and issues could be healed in a more holistic way that, for example, antibiotics have all these adverse side effects that we could be able to avoid by healthier solutions provided by nature. What are your thoughts on that?

• 1:06:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I completely agree. I think that the issue from my perspective is that I don't want to make it sound like I outwardly reject the healthcare system and the existence of medications. And I've seen the beneficial effects of many different medicines for many different people. What I reject is a system that completely ignores diet and lifestyle and a holistic view to a person that is where the root of our issues exist. And I see a problem where if a person's, if the root of an issue is not addressed, they will get worse.

• 1:06:53Speaker 00

  And the amount of medication that's necessary to just sort of plug up the hole that exists in the sinking ship starts to escalate and increase and you become subjected to the consequences of that. So to me, the way I see it is actually quite simple. I think that the optimal approach is to embrace a dietary approach, lifestyle, a holistic view of the person that includes their emotional health and their spiritual health. I think that there's a place where supplements exist and they're beneficial, not as a replacement for any of this, but in addition to. And then when we need medication, it's there for us.

• 1:07:35André Duqum?

  Why is diet one of the biggest levers we can pull? And for somebody that wants to take more responsibility in the course of their health, obviously, we know how important nutrition is. But can you break down how the food we eat is actively shifting, changing, evolving, shaping our microbiome?

• 1:07:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, so if you think about it this way, we're talking about medications where milligrams can change bodily physiology, right? Very small amounts. And then into that, like into your mouth, the same portal of entry, you are going to put in thousands and thousands and thousands of grams of food. And so like on a, on a daily basis, we consume about three pounds of food per day. So if we were to convert that into, into milligrams, it's millions.

• 1:08:36Speaker 00

  And we're putting that into our body on a daily basis and we ignore it as if it's of no consequence, right? Yet, at the same time, we acknowledge that a couple of milligrams of a medication is intensely powerful. And this is where like, I think that some of the arguments that exist around ultra-processed foods, many people who are in defense of ultra-processed foods will argue, well, the amounts are very small. It's just a couple of milligrams. Exactly. Only a couple of milligrams is all that we need to have potentially a quite profound effect. So if we think about the entirety of our diet, you know, grams and grams of food on

• 1:09:20Speaker 00

  a daily basis, three pounds of food per day, the makeup of that diet is all coming into context with our gut microbes and it influences change within them. The microbes rise and fall, families rise and fall, based upon the choices that we make.

• 1:09:38André Duqum?

  What is the legitimacy to that? Because I remember when I switched to more plant-based diet like eight years ago, I noticed within only like a couple of weeks, my cravings completely changed as well. And so, how does what we put in our mouth change what we want to then put more of in our mouth?

• 1:09:57Speaker 00

  Well, I think we reinforce those choices. So ultimately, we are not zombies to our bacterial overlords.

• 1:10:09André Duqum?

  It can sound like that sometimes.

• 1:10:11Speaker 00

  It can start to sound like that. But ultimately, you are a human of free will with the right to choose what ultimately you do put into your mouth. We may have like, you know, preferences. We may have addiction. But ultimately, you still have the choice. And so, in those choices, when you make a dietary shift, a significant shift, you are now selecting for different microbes that love these choices that you just made. And the microbes that, for example, love, you know, sugar or unhealthy fat, they're not getting what they wanted. And so, they grow weaker. And their representation is less. And as a result of that, like now you start to crave

• 1:10:54Speaker 00

  the food that you've been eating.

• 1:10:57André Duqum?

  So when you eat, let's say you add or you have a plant-centric diet or you're eating a lot of spinach, where you used to eat a bunch of just candy and lollipops and sugar-filled ultra-processed foods. When you start to make that healthier shift, what's happening to those cells? What's happening to your gut and your microbiome? Are they dying off and new ones are being spun up? Or are they just, how are they changing with their craving?

• 1:11:24Speaker 00

  It depends on, so on some level, it depends on the intensity of the change that you're making, how hard you're going all at once. There was an interesting study that was published in 2014 in the journal Nature, where basically, they took a group of people and they did five days of a completely plant-based diet. And then they did five days of a completely animal-based diet. And they would assess their microbiome on a daily basis. So this study helps us to answer this question because basically what they found is that number one, within 24 hours of making that change, you could already start to see it reflected in the microbiome. When people flipped to a plant-based diet, they started to create these microbes that

• 1:12:09Speaker 00

  are known to help us to break down and process fiber. So, and those are anti-inflammatory bacteria. And many of the ones that were detected in these five days of doing a plant-based diet are the same ones that people pay to consume as a probiotic. So these are beneficial anti-inflammatory microbes. And, and before I dig into the animal-based diet, let me be the first to say that there are many dietary patterns and the argument that I'm making here is not for a 100% whole food, plant-based diet, although I think that for many people, that can be the, a great dietary choice. But it's more so to say that finding the right balance for each of us. So on this 100% animal-based diet though, during the course of five days, there were some changes that were concerning.

• 1:12:54Speaker 00

  So there were specific bacteria that started to rise up. And these are bacteria that thrive within an environment with high saturated fat, with, with more bile, because bile is released in response to that fat in the diet. And, and also the absence of fiber. And the, one of them is called bilephyllozwarthia and bilephyllozwarthia keeps showing up in association with ulcerative colitis and colorectal cancer. So within these, another was Alastrepsputridennis, again, that's an inflammatory microbe. You find that in abscesses and it's associated with colorectal cancer. And then the last was a family called bacterioides that also-

• 1:13:36André Duqum?

  Great names, whoever's naming these.

• 1:13:39Speaker 00

  Some people name them after themselves. I think it's a bit egotistical, right?

• 1:13:42André Duqum?

  Very humble.

• 1:13:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:13:44André Duqum?

  Those are microbes.

• 1:13:45Speaker 00

  So those are the microbes and you know, it's not to say that these people developed ulcerative colitis in five days. They did not. It's more so to say that you're creating an ecosystem though, that puts you at risk. And if you, if you have a certain genetic predisposition, that could absolutely happen further down the road. So the other thing that was interesting real quick, on the animal-based diet that happened that I think needs to be, needs to be discussed is that they developed antibiotic resistance. So and it was not, it did not exist, it didn't happen on a plant-based diet. Why would that be? It's not inherent to animal-based foods. It's our, it's our agricultural system.

• 1:14:25André Duqum?

  That stuff, I mean, isn't 90% of pharmaceuticals fed through cattle?

• 1:14:29Speaker 00

  So antibiotics, 80% of antibiotics in the United States that are manufactured go to cattle. Yeah, or I should say not cattle, but animals.

• 1:14:37André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:39André Duqum?

  Factory farming.

• 1:14:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's part of factory farming. And, you know, the issue is that there's loopholes that allow them to do this where they could say, oh, well, the animal needed it. Right? But really what's happening is that, and this is an interesting thing to consider for a moment. If you give a pig antibiotics and you destroy its microbiome, it will gain 15% more weight eating the exact same food. If you feed them the exact same number of calories, and they gain 15% more weight because you destroyed their microbiome with antibiotics. And you look out at America right now, and 70% of America is overweight or obese.

• 1:15:24Speaker 00

  And we're suffering with an epidemic of gut-related issues. And I think this is just another piece of the puzzle that's kind of saying to us, hey, like, we need to make some changes. So anyway, with the animal-based foods, the issue was the antibiotics that were given to the livestock.

• 1:15:40André Duqum?

  Why is the absence of fiber, for example, on a, on a meat-based diet? Why is that an issue? And just generally for those that aren't getting as much fiber in their, in their diet? Why is that such an important thing?

• 1:15:53Speaker 00

  Okay, so I would like to start with where we are as a country. And then I would like to take it into an acknowledgement of the carnivore diet and the trend. So where we are as a country is, first of all, probably the worst diet in the history of humanity. Like, on average.

• 1:16:09André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:10Speaker 00

  Where 60% of the American diet comes from ultra-processed food. 30% of our diet is animal-based foods, so meat, dairy, and eggs. And, and again, like, I think that you could be healthy and eat animal-based foods. But we're not balanced. And then 10% comes from plants, but that 10%, the number one plant is potatoes. Because we're eating a lot of fries.

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  So this is a horribly unhealthy pattern and the result is that we are wildly fiber deficient. The recommended amount for a woman in the United States is 25 grams and she's getting 15. That is the minimum. That's not an A+ in fiber. That's a D- if you could get 25. And the average woman is, you know, 40% below that. For men, we're even worse. The recommended amount is 38 grams per day and the average man is getting 18. So while women are 10 grams below where they should be, men are 20 grams below where they should be. So we have a huge fiber deficiency issue and this ultimately reflects in the health

• 1:17:17Speaker 00

  of our gut microbiome because our ability to support that microbiome, be anti-inflammatory and allow it to be adaptable and resilient, they need to be fed. And if they're not being fed, they can't be strong. Okay. The body is amazingly adaptable. So if we take a look at the carnivore diet, or you propose to me a person who gets into ketosis and is truly in ketosis, because the issue is, I think, a lot of people who do a ketogenic diet, they're not actually in ketosis. But if you run a 100% animal-based diet, you will get into ketosis because there's

• 1:17:58Speaker 00

  very, very, very few carbs in there. The body will produce ketone bodies, which are acetoacetate and beta-hydroxybutyrate. Now, this is an interesting thing because I am a huge believer in the power of fiber because fiber produces butyrate, acetate, and propionate. So note the similarities of the names, beta-hydroxybutyrate versus butyrate from fiber.

• 1:18:31Speaker 00

  Acetoacetate the ketone body versus acetate from fiber. They're biochemically similar. They activate the same receptors as butyrate and acetate because the body created a defense and survival mechanism because this is so important. Where during times of starvation, we still get our short chain fatty acids through the ketones. The problem with this approach is that it's not the same. This is not a one to one conversion. So basically, if you're, if you're saying, okay, they activate the same receptors, they do, but in a very weak fashion. Compared to the original, which is the acetate and the butyrate that we get from fiber. So if you, if we like, look out at this landscape,

• 1:19:16Speaker 00

  you know, there are definitely people who say, I do a carnivore diet and improved my autoimmune disease or like whatever type health condition. And I believe them. And I think the reason why is because they went from a standard American diet, which has no fiber and just a lot of junk. And they at least moved into a place where their body is producing these ketone bodies. And that's definitely a step in the right direction. But I think that they would be even better off if they were to reintroduce healthy whole foods that then empower and fuel their gut microbiome and other microbiome to produce acetate and butyrate and propionate.

• 1:19:53André Duqum?

  Was, was there not that study that showed for every five grams of fiber and increase, there was a 30% chance of survival for cancer?

• 1:20:02Speaker 00

  Yes. So that's true with, um, so this is interesting. Melanoma research is fascinating. The stuff that's happening in melanoma right now. So melanoma is the, is a skin cancer that is the number one cause of death related to skin cancer. Right. So of all the skin cancers, melanoma is the one that's most dangerous. All right. The way that we're treating melanoma now is with something called immunotherapy. Where rather than, rather than traditional chemotherapy that attacks the cell, immunotherapy empowers your own immune system to destroy the cancer for you. Which is interesting, that's a testament to the function of our own body, right? We're weaponizing our own body to protect ourselves.

• 1:20:46Speaker 00

  So, there's a series of studies that have come out of M.D. Anderson in Texas, one of the top cancer centers in America. And it starts with this, that number one, they noticed if you give antibiotics to a person with melanoma before you give them this immunotherapy, they don't do well. They're like, what's the deal with that? If I give antibiotics, why are they not doing well? You're destroying the microbiome.

• 1:21:12Speaker 00

  So, they tested the opposite. And they took a group of people who had received immunotherapy and failed. So their melanoma is still threatening their life. And they gave them a fecal transplant before immunotherapy. And a very large percentage of these people who had previously failed had success. And were able to eliminate their melanoma through this approach. So this led the researchers into the question of like, well, what about if the microbiome is good? And a healthy microbiome translates into a better immune system that has more power to fight cancer? What happens with fiber?

• 1:21:56Speaker 00

  And that's where the statistic that you just shared, they discovered in their study that for every five grams of fiber that a person was consuming, if you increased by five grams, you had a 30% better likelihood of responding to immunotherapy for your melanoma. And there's similar data for colorectal cancer. And there's similar data for breast cancer. So fiber has profound benefits in terms of preventing cancers and simultaneously after people have been treated for cancer or during treatment.

• 1:22:31André Duqum?

  Why? Why is fiber so essential to a healthy gut and system?

• 1:22:35Speaker 00

  So we've been kind of alluding to this, but let's just get very direct with it.

• 1:22:40Speaker 00

  You know, I grew up with the idea that fiber passes through us and it just results in a bigger bowel movement. Right? It's like just this thing that sweeps, sweeps through you. And that's not, that's like, that's like a half-truth.

• 1:22:55Speaker 00

  But there's the other half. That's the part that's really exciting that we're learning about right now with new research. Which is that there's some forms of fiber that are what we call prebiotic. Prebiotic basically means food for the microbiome. And this, this fiber, we as humans don't have the enzymes to break down and process the fiber. So when we consume fiber, and by the way, I should say, fiber is actually quite easy to find.

• 1:23:25Speaker 00

  All plant-based foods have fiber. So any fruit or vegetable or whole grain or seed or nut or legume has fiber.

• 1:23:33André Duqum?

  And what is it in all of those things that is the actual fiber? Like, what is the, is the compound, the structural component of what brings it, like, keeps stuff together?

• 1:23:41Speaker 00

  It can be a structural component. Basically, fiber is long-chain carbohydrates. So it's made, it's gonna, this is gonna scare some people, but let me unpack this. It's made up of sugars, but which is just simply what carbohydrates are. All carbohydrates are made up of sugars, but if you chain enough sugars together and you make it long and complex, you've created fiber, right? In the same way that protein is made up of amino acids and you have to chain those amino acids together to create protein. So, so fiber is multiple long-chain carbohydrates. And in order to break that chain, you have to use enzymes that we as humans don't actually have. But our microbes do.

• 1:24:25Speaker 00

  We evolved to a, like, basically third-party, the digestion of fiber to the microbiome. And the reason why is because if you step into nature and you think about all the things that you could potentially eat out there that are a part of our environment, all the plant-based foods. There's so many of them. So there's estimates that there's 300,000 unique plants in the planet. So as humans radiated out from Africa, as we went across the globe, the issue is we were running into so much variety that the human body is not capable, from an evolutionary perspective, of keeping up with that variety. So we needed something else that could help us.

• 1:25:04Speaker 00

  So we internalized this organ, the microbiome, that actually has that capacity to basically like adapt and adjust and bring forward the enzymes that we need when we need them. And again, it's the intelligence of nature. So fiber, we don't have the enzymes to break down, but our gut microbes could literally have, there's estimates that they have 60,000 unique enzymes. So when fiber goes through our intestine, passes through, and it enters into the colon unchanged because it hasn't yet come into contact with microbes.

• 1:25:43Speaker 00

  And in the colon, these microbes get to work as a team, unpacking, breaking down the fiber, and it stops being fiber, and it gets transformed into a fat. And these are the short-chain fatty acids, butyrate, acetate, and propionate. So when I was just alluding to these a moment ago, these three things, we call these butyrate, acetate, and propionate, we call these postbiotics. They're produced by the microbiome. And in the very beginning of the show, I mentioned that things, chemicals produced by your microbiome can heal your blood-brain barrier. This is what we're talking about, this right here.

• 1:26:25Speaker 00

  In the same way that these things can heal your gut barrier, in the same way that these things will elevate the healthy microbes and suppress the inflammatory bad ones, and in the same way that these chemicals are what can, through at least five, maybe six different mechanisms, I forget the exact number, can disrupt cancer cells in the colon.

• 1:26:50Speaker 00

  They have all these healing effects right there within the intestines, but then they also enter into the bloodstream. They have healing effects on our metabolism in terms of blood sugar control, blood pressure, our cholesterol, in terms of satiety. So like GLP-1, which is commercialized as Ozempic, is produced when short chain fatty acids come into contact with these cells that line our body and make us feel full. That's why fiber is so satiating. They affect our immune system. They're the most anti-inflammatory thing I've ever come across. They affect hormone levels, both for men and for women, both male sex hormones and female sex hormones, allowing us to achieve healthy hormonal balance. That's right for our body. They affect our mood.

• 1:27:34Speaker 00

  They affect the blood-brain barriers, like brain fog. To me, you know, you go to your doctor, you say, I feel like I have brain fog, and they kind of roll their eyes. Yet, like, there's a bazillion people that are dealing with this. What is that? I think it's leaky brain. I think it's that the blood-brain barrier has been damaged and is now letting things across that aren't supposed to be there. And it's affecting your ability to have sharp cognition.

• 1:28:01André Duqum?

  I used to have pretty foggy brain before I took out gluten. Like, I was super bloated and foggy-headed pretty regularly, and I took out gluten, and like, things just changed drastically within a week. It was crazy. So fiber is very important. Everything that you just mentioned seems like really helpful in understanding the process of prebiotic, probiotic, postbiotic. To make this super practical, like, could you just boil down the most important ways in which we can implement that knowledge into the changes and decisions we're making in life?

• 1:28:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. In terms of nutrition?

• 1:28:43André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:44Speaker 00

  So, to me, if there's only one thing that I would want people to take away from this show, this is it right here. I want you to add variety into your diet.

• 1:28:58Speaker 00

  And that doesn't necessarily mean trying new things. It means looking for opportunities to increase the number of different types of plants that you have in your meal. So, research has shown that the number one predictor of a healthy gut microbiome was not your dietary pattern. The most important thing was how many different types of plants you had in your diet. And to be very specific, the number that they found that was sort of magical was thirty per week. Thirty different types of plants per week? Thirty different types of plants per week. Now, that is not just vegetables. So, like, four to five different types per day, ish? Yeah, roughly.

• 1:29:43Speaker 00

  But if you think about it this way, there are these foods that are an opportunity that, like, basically serve as a vehicle for variety. So, like, a smoothie. To me, a smoothie should, like, at a minimum, have five or six different plants. Is there something people should be, should watch out in how fibers change in the blending process? So, a smoothie, in the same way that, like, juicing fruit, I don't really believe in that because that, to me, is a sugar beverage. Like, you don't like blending fruit? You're saying? So, I guess what I'm saying is, I wouldn't make a fruit-only smoothie. Yeah. Like, you go to Tropical Smoothie Cafe. Right, right. That's what they serve you.

• 1:30:28Speaker 00

  Sugar-gluco spike drink. Yeah, that's a sugar, that's a glucose spike drink. And that's actually bad for your microbiome, right? But on the flip side, if you, if we're talking about the benefits that come from phytochemicals, which are plant-based chemicals, polyphenols, which give the colors to our food, fiber, even if it's been partially digested by a blender, right? To me, these things are powerful and good for us in that form. So, it's just a matter of, like, having a balanced smoothie. There's nothing wrong with having blueberries in a smoothie. I'm not saying no fruit. I'm just saying, don't make it like a banana and, banana and orange smoothie, and that's it.

• 1:31:10André Duqum?

  Would you say similar for juicing? Like if you're gonna juice a bunch of vegetables versus eating them?

• 1:31:15Speaker 00

  I think juicing vegetables is completely fair game. The only issue that I have with juicing is that I see juicing. So in a world where 95% of Americans are deficient in fiber, it's hard for me to sit there and watch us remove the fiber and throw it in the trash can.

• 1:31:33André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:33Speaker 00

  Right? That's my issue with juicing. Do I think that there's value to that compared to drinking Diet Coke? Of course.

• 1:31:40André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:40Speaker 00

  Right? But I really wanna make sure that people are taking care to not discard that part. There's still some fiber in there and there's also other phytochemicals in there. But I just wanna make sure that people are not taking that, taking that, you know, tremendous value that exists from the whole food and then discarding it in the process. So to me, if you can find the proper balance in your diet,

• 1:32:09Speaker 00

  I think of juicing as conceptually very similar to supplements, which is like optimize your diet. Take it as far as you can take it. And then here's this thing that you can do to optimize it a little bit further. Right? Which can be supplements or adding some juicing.

• 1:32:24André Duqum?

  So increased fiber through a diversity of foods, ideally a minimum 30 plus per week. But you know, a smoothie can help take that, you know, take care of that for you.

• 1:32:36Speaker 00

  Smoothies, soups. So basically it's the S's. Smoothies, soups, salads, sauces. All right? All of these different things basically can become a vehicle for variety. But the issue though, to be honest with you, Andre, is that this has to be self motivated.

• 1:32:52André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:53Speaker 00

  Because when you step into your supermarket, statistically, 75% of the plant-based calories in your supermarket come from three plants. So that's wheat, corn and soy. And it's not to like completely vilify those things. I think edamame is an incredibly healthy thing for a person to snack on. It's more so like soy nuggets. What is that?

• 1:33:15André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:16Speaker 00

  Right? So if you want variety, the food system will not provide this for you. You have to take it upon yourself. And I see this as when you're in the supermarket, thinking about what can I do to get more variety? Part of this is like expanding and grabbing new stuff, something you've never tried before. Grab the dragon fruit. See what happens. Right? But it's also about like making sure that when you go and you you're checking out the beans, get multiple different types. You should maximize that. So same is true for like whole grains or other things that you're consuming. And then when you're at home in the kitchen, if you're making a sauce, a soup, a stew, a smoothie, a salad, any of these things,

• 1:34:01Speaker 00

  start thinking about this. What can you, what can you add to this to make it better?

• 1:34:04André Duqum?

  What would you put as a rung right under what you just said for ways to improve our nutrition?

• 1:34:11Speaker 00

  Number two?

• 1:34:11André Duqum?

  Yeah, would it be fermented foods?

• 1:34:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, dude. Good work. Yeah, fermented foods. That's number two. It's a unique category that we traditionally consumed routinely,

• 1:34:27Speaker 00

  sometimes by necessity and sometimes without even thinking about it. So if you think about like the entirety of human history, fermentation naturally occurs in nature. Right? A fruit falls from a tree, lands on the ground and it naturally starts to ferment. And you know, if I were a caveman, I would still pick up that fruit and eat it. Right? As long as it's not, as long as it's not like completely destroyed. So

• 1:34:55Speaker 00

  and over the course of human history, as we, as we developed into civilizations and we developed agricultural practices, it was fermentation that allowed us to preserve the harvest through the winter, which made it so that we didn't have to be nomadic. We could actually settle into a place and have a food supply that would propel us and allow us to stay. And then, you know, forward on to the 19th century and we start to develop new techniques for preservation of our food, including pasteurization and canning. And the way that these things work is by destroying the microbes. That's the way the pasteurization works. You heat it up to the point that all the microbes are dead. Right. And that's how you preserve the food.

• 1:35:37Speaker 00

  And what we've lost was this connection to our food and the fact that a fermented food is a living ecosystem. And it's predigested.

• 1:35:49Speaker 00

  And it contains enzymes.

• 1:35:51André Duqum?

  Sauerkraut, kimchi, so bomb, so good too.

• 1:35:55Speaker 00

  Sauerkraut, kimchi, pickles. And when I say pickles, it's not just cucumbers. Um, I think that making green beans, I've made amazing green beans, amazing radishes. And in the summertime, I will pickle my watermelon rinds. So anything that has like a good fibrous outer is actually really good for this kind of technique. So, and then like, you know, kombucha, there's emerging research that's now starting to come out showing us the benefits. Does that mean that I think the kombucha should be the only thing you drink all day long? Definitely not. Right. But routine consumption of kombucha can definitely be good for us.

• 1:36:33Speaker 00

  And then, you know, within the animal-based space, like clearly, without question, the healthiest form of dairy that exists is fermented. And that includes kefir and things like this, kefir, yogurt, like those are clearly the healthiest forms of dairy that exist. So if you're someone that consumes dairy, you should, you should be incorporating this into your diet.

• 1:36:57André Duqum?

  Brad, okay.

• 1:36:59Speaker 00

  There was a study, an interesting study that was done at Stanford. And they took a group of people, it was a randomized control trial. And they took a group of people and they had them radically increase their fermented food intake. But the thing that was cool was that over a period of about eight weeks, they added diversity to their microbiome. So in other words, their gut ecosystem was getting healthier, more resilient. And simultaneously, and this always plays out this way, when you add diversity to the microbiome, you get less inflammation. So all the markers of inflammation start to drop off. So this is where to me, it's like this combination of. Plant-based foods in diversity, thirty different plants per week,

• 1:37:43Speaker 00

  and bringing back fermented food. Of all the bread that exists, to me, like you're gluten-free, it sounds like. But if I were someone who was eating bread, sourdough is number one by far.

• 1:37:56André Duqum?

  It's funny, too. I just remember like traveling Europe and because you hear people going to Europe and not having the same issue with wheat, you know, and just wanted to experiment and like had no issue. It's so fascinating. Yeah, yeah, I had no issue.

• 1:38:08Speaker 00

  Where were you in Italy? In Italy. Yeah, I've heard this many times. I think it's, let me tell you how I interpret this.

• 1:38:14André Duqum?

  Please.

• 1:38:16Speaker 00

  I think that there are, so we discover that something is wrong with wheat. And we assign the issue to gluten. And it may be. But it also may be something else that is in the wheat. And specifically what I'm concerned about with this, because gluten, like there's definitely gluten, and it's not different gluten in the wheat in Italy. What I'm worried about is glyphosate. So in the United States, when wheat is harvested, unless it's organic, which the vast majority of bread, unless you're shopping at Whole Foods, is not organic.

• 1:38:58André Duqum?

  Even Whole Foods, you've seen some really sketchy stuff there.

• 1:39:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. Right. Like, to me, the healthiest bread is the bread that you make yourself at home. Glyphosate sprayed onto the wheat, it's an herbicide, so it kills the plant. And the problem is, like, I take issue with this, that we have a food system that doesn't require that to be on the label. It should be required that you sprayed Roundup onto my food so that I know that. And I can make a choice whether or not I'm okay with that. And so we talked about how, you know, milligrams, or in some cases, micrograms of medication can have these profound effects on our body, on our gut.

• 1:39:43Speaker 00

  I believe that the same is true with glyphosate. That even microscopic amounts that are being sprayed onto the wheat to dry it out are enough to create serious health issues. And that, to me, is what separates Italy from the United States.

• 1:39:57André Duqum?

  Yeah. Where else would you see glyphosate? Is it just all or vast majority of non-organic foods that we would have?

• 1:40:04Speaker 00

  Oats. Many people who have issues with bread cross react with oats. And you can make an argument that it's protein in the oats, but you could also make the argument that all oats are being sprayed with glyphosate, unless they're organic. And then you also see this in dried out whole grains and legumes. So some people react to these things. And we end up with books that blame lectins. And I'm not of the belief that that is the truth, the true story. Like, I don't think that's the case. But I do believe that there are, like, clearly people that are reacting to these foods. And in some cases, I think those reactions are related to this.

• 1:40:43André Duqum?

  What's the one liner that showcases how, why glyphosate is so bad for our system?

• 1:40:49Speaker 00

  All right, so we allow glyphosate into our food supply because we say that it does not harm humans through the schikimate pathway. But the issue is that it does destroy microbes.

• 1:41:03André Duqum?

  So it's just destroying our microbiome?

• 1:41:06Speaker 00

  It's destroying our microbiome.

• 1:41:07André Duqum?

  And the barrier, like the...

• 1:41:09Speaker 00

  Well, when you destroy the microbiome, you destroy the barrier. So the barrier is constantly revising itself. So our intestine is like multiple football fields of surface area. Right? It's kind of interesting to think about, like, inside of us could be that much space.

• 1:41:24André Duqum?

  That's trippy. Multiple football fields of surface area.

• 1:41:27Speaker 00

  Multiple football fields of surface area. And then get more microscopic with it. Every single blade of grass has microbes that are taking up residence there and part of that system. Right? So, and this is, this is the inside of us. And so the issue from my perspective is that when you have like this much surface area, it revises itself every three days. You have a brand new gut barrier every three days. So it's in a state of perpetual maintenance. It's not just like, you don't just build the wall and weave it. You're constantly maintaining the wall. And when we disrupt our ability to do that, then we suffer consequences.

• 1:42:13André Duqum?

  Any thoughts on, pick it up on any of these that you want, but parasites, cleanses, fasting, what comes to mind when people are exploring the reality of these?

• 1:42:25Speaker 00

  So, let me take fasting out of that group first. Sometimes I feel like the hype is outpacing the science as I see it. That being said, there's an intuitive element to this, which is that our body is designed to sort of be in two main modes and that dominates our daily circadian rhythm. And our gut clearly has its own circadian rhythm.

• 1:42:57Speaker 00

  So, the concept of fasting is simply allowing the gut to rest. I've seen people with serious inflammatory bowel disease, like Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis. And one of the techniques that we will use in the hospital is actually to rest their bowels. And it helps to get their immune system cooled off and back into alignment. So I do think that there's value to, and by the way, the research would support that there is value to resting the gut. It doesn't need to be like an aggressive multi-day thing. To me, it's more so, like this is the pattern that I see,

• 1:43:39Speaker 00

  is aligning how we eat with a natural 24-hour cycle. And the important part of this is that there's a lot of people, and I've been there for most of my life, where you get into the evening and you're like, "Look, I'm gonna unwind, I'm gonna watch some TV, and I'm gonna have a couple of drinks." Right? And that is the worst thing that you can do.

• 1:44:04Speaker 00

  So the way that I would recommend people approach this is trying to have dinner for some minimized alcohol. We can talk about that as a separate issue if you want to. Have dinner and then like basically I cut it off. And go clean for a few hours of no food, no alcohol before you go to bed.

• 1:44:27Speaker 00

  And that basically sets you up where if you take that and you combine it with seven or eight hours of sleep, you end up in a place where you've done at least 12 hours of fasting. And this is a pretty good start. If you, if you get that to 14 hours, we did a study with Zoe. So we did these interesting studies where we would basically like put an app out and let people who want to participate in a giant research study just like come in and volunteer. And so we had over 100,000 people doing a 14 hour fast. 10 hour eating window, 14 hour fast. You get to choose how you divide that up during the day. Right. So like

• 1:45:04André Duqum?

  It's not bad. That could be like, what, 10 to 10 to eight?

• 1:45:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:08André Duqum?

  That's like

• 1:45:09Speaker 00

  It's not bad.

• 1:45:09André Duqum?

  No.

• 1:45:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's like, that's like a mild fast. Right? So, um, and among the people who did this, we saw substantial improvements in terms of their mood, their energy levels. Um, they actually had less bloating, which suggests, because this is not a population with IBS, like this is a general healthy population. And yet their bloating is improving. Again, that would support that your gut microbiome is in a healthier place. So I do think there's value to fasting. The other thing that I will say in terms of fasting is

• 1:45:45Speaker 00

  it allows us to have the structure that we need in order to control how much food we're consuming on a daily basis. With a diet that's made up of ultra-processed foods, if you don't have any sort of barriers in terms of how you approach your day,

• 1:46:02Speaker 00

  what we know about ultra-processed foods is that they lead us to overeating.

• 1:46:07Speaker 00

  So they don't satiate us and they make you hungry for more.

• 1:46:13Speaker 00

  So the benefit of fasting is by sort of compacting it into a window. There is the potential for many people who are suffering with metabolic issues, overweight and obesity, that this approach by itself can't help them to get into a at least relative caloric restriction, and then they lose weight. And that's been pretty firmly established, the fasting can do that. So bottom line, like to me, we all should strive for consistency of our mealtimes, just like consistency of sleep. And with that consistency, one of the approaches that can help us to achieve that is a fasting approach.

• 1:46:57Speaker 00

  So with regard to cleanses and parasites, it's challenging for me because the issue is that, for example, with a parasite, I have to see it. Like, not literally see the parasite, but I need a test to show me that it's there. I don't think it's fair game, and I don't recommend that people operate under assumptions and then do things that could potentially really disturb their microbiome. Whether we call something an antibiotic or an herbal antimicrobial, we're talking about the same thing, right? Which is something that's going to have an effect on these microbes in terms of destroying

• 1:47:41Speaker 00

  certain ones. So the issue with cleanses or the concept of like a parasite cleanse, I just worry that unless you know that there's a parasite there, unless this is confirmed by a test, I have concerns about proceeding forward with this approach, which generally involves some sort of antimicrobial protocol. When, like that, in a world where we are suffering with dysbiosis and a damaged gut, this is a way to get yourself into a deeper hole, unfortunately, from my perspective.

• 1:48:15André Duqum?

  Got it.

• 1:48:18André Duqum?

  Fascinating. Any word on alcohol since we just, you mentioned it? I'm just curious and what it's doing to the gut.

• 1:48:25Speaker 00

  Well, if I scrape my knee, or like if my son scrapes his knee, and I want to clean up that wound, what do I pull out?

• 1:48:31André Duqum?

  Some alcohol.

• 1:48:32Speaker 00

  Exactly. Because it's inherently antimicrobial, right? And so what do we think happens when we ingest? And why do we get hangovers? Is the hangover just dehydration?

• 1:48:47Speaker 00

  Because I can drink a lot of Gatorade the morning after I've gone too far, and I'm still gonna feel that hangover for about 24 hours.

• 1:48:56Speaker 00

  I think that a hangover is that we've actually induced dysbiosis through excessive alcohol consumption. And there was a study that changed my mind about alcohol. I used to think that one or two drinks was okay. Like, as long as you don't have a hangover, you're okay. And I've changed my mind on that. I actually think, and let me start by saying this. I'm not a teetotaler. So like, there will be someone who hears this, and then you might see me out socially with friends, and I'm having a drink, right? That's okay. Like, we're not trying to be perfect here. But the point from my perspective is that the evidence is indicating to me that the best place for us to be is to not have regular alcohol.

• 1:49:39Speaker 00

  This was the study. They took a group of people, and they had them consume a significant amount of alcohol relative to their body weight. And then they measured every 30 minutes their blood alcohol level and the presence of lipopolysaccharide in their bloodstream. All right, I mentioned this lipopolysaccharide a while back in the episode. So let me explain what that is. In our gut is a mix of different types of microbes. And many of them are really good for us. Most of them are good for us. But some of them are bad. E. coli is definitely in our gut. Every single one of us has that in there.

• 1:50:20Speaker 00

  Inflammatory pathogenic bacteria, they have this coat of armor that surrounds the cell and protects them, called lipopolysaccharide, and it's specific to pathogens. So our immune system was trained to be activated in response to this. It's supposed to stay in our gut. That's why we have a gut barrier. But if the gut barrier gets broken down, for whatever reason, then that E. coli or that lipopolysaccharide that's in our gut can sneak across the gut barrier and get into the bloodstream and come into contact with the immune system, which results in inflammation.

• 1:51:01Speaker 00

  So this is like, to me, lipopolysaccharide is synonymous with inflammation. So they were checking lipopolysaccharide levels in the blood. Again, we should not be seeing much lipopolysaccharide there when our gut barrier is working. And what we saw, these two things, blood alcohol level and lipopolysaccharide, is like literally, you could take the graph of what was happening every 30 minutes, and you could superimpose them on one another because it was literally a complete and total overlap. In fact, there was this one really interesting part for reasons that I can't totally explain, but there's probably a metabolic basis for this, where the alcohol level actually went back up.

• 1:51:46Speaker 00

  So like the alcohol level peaked and it was coming down. The lipopolysaccharide level peaked and it was coming down in parallel. And then for whatever reason, the alcohol level went back up, and so did the lipopolysaccharide level. It was a one-to-one connection. The lipopolysaccharide did not get back to normal until the alcohol was zero. So from my perspective, if you're drinking enough to have alcohol that's detectable in your blood, you're drinking enough to allow lipopolysaccharide to leak into your blood, which means it damaged gut barrier.

• 1:52:21André Duqum?

  All right. I think the evidence-

• 1:52:24Speaker 00

  I don't mean to steal everyone's fun.

• 1:52:25André Duqum?

  No, but I mean, you know, I feel like I'm all about, I think you're all about empowering people with the knowledge to make their own choice. And I think it's to come from an empowered place of really just knowing what that effect is. Because then you're able to really engage with acts of self-love that help you build towards that healthy spiral of health. And that's exciting. And then you, you know, you may get to the point where you just don't want to partake in things that are harming your health and you find other ways to, you know, find indulgence or whatever it is. Or maybe even if you partake in, you know, certain things that are going to create dysbiosis in your gut, you're more mindful and it's more of a once a month instead of once a week thing.

• 1:53:08Speaker 00

  That's exactly right. That's, that's the way that I feel about this. And, you know, I have an expression that I like, which is progress over perfection. Because I don't want people to feel like they need to like drill down on these things. Like even with the 30 plants, if you're the average American, then you're probably consuming like seven or eight per week. And so to go up to 30 is a bit much. But if you were to go from eight up to 15, I'm thrilled. It's about the steps along the way, right? And for me, this has been a journey in my own life. And I'm constantly looking for ways to make little tweaks and improvements.

• 1:53:40André Duqum?

  It goes back to what we talked about earlier on too, about where decisions are coming from. And if we're in a state of fear, making decisions too, that's also like you mentioned earlier, putting us in a sympathetic state where we're creating more dysbiosis in the gut too. So it's like making choices for the love of our health and our, and our system is amazing. Not doing something fun because we're fearful of the changes might be a powerful motivator to start, but I'm sure also have their own side effects.

• 1:54:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think that, I think that also tapping into how you feel.

• 1:54:15André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:16Speaker 00

  Right? When you feel that difference, then you know.

• 1:54:20André Duqum?

  One of the last things I wanted to ask you about actually is skin. Because like, most of us aren't familiar with the microbes that live on us.

• 1:54:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54:30André Duqum?

  And how they communicate with the microbes in us. And I feel like we just got out of this, you know, I mean, it's COVID time and era where there's so many masks and hand sanitizers and, you know, and modern living in many ways is so sterile. And so what is that fundamentally doing and how it kind of changes the environment within us?

• 1:54:48Speaker 00

  We do know like with clarity that the sterility of our environment does have consequences. People that are raised in a home where there's no pets are more likely to end up with allergic diseases later in life.

• 1:55:00André Duqum?

  Wasn't there an example of this, like the sterile boy or something?

• 1:55:04Speaker 00

  Uh, there was a bubble boy.

• 1:55:05André Duqum?

  Bubble boy?

• 1:55:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, the bubble boy, that was a complex thing. Because he was born with a genetically inherited immune deficiency. And so it was complex because they tried to raise him within a bubble and it didn't go very well. So, but the challenge of an environment that includes all kinds of different things is actually good for us. Right? To be sick on occasion is actually good for us. It's, it's allowing your immune system to grow and become stronger as a result of that. If you think about when people were colonizing the Americas, many of the natives, what they

• 1:55:49Speaker 00

  died from was actually exposure to, to illnesses that they had never been exposed to before. Right? Whereas the Europeans had no issue with this because their immune system had been already challenged and created the, the antibodies that it needed to protect itself. So, yes, so the sterility of our environment is, is problematic. And when we think about our skin.

• 1:56:12Speaker 00

  The skin has its own microbiome, but it's also in contact with our gut microbes. So once again, our gut microbes are producing chemicals that can ultimately have effects on the health and balance of our skin microbiome. You know, I grew up where like as a teenager, everyone deals with acne on some level, right? Hormonal fluctuations are what are sort of driving that. But some people get cystic acne and that's actually, that's actually an inflammatory condition. And acne is driven by the skin microbiome. This is the reason why many of the treatments that a dermatologist provides are antibiotics. And some of those antibiotics are antibiotics that are taken by mouth. If you think about the effect that that then has on the skin.

• 1:56:56Speaker 00

  On the flip side of this, when we clean up our diet, you can have profoundly better skin. And some of the strategies that I see being helpful, of course, increasing the plant-based foods in our diet with shep, the fiber. But also, many people who have acne issues, when they, when they reduce or eliminate dairy, they see improvements.

• 1:57:19Speaker 00

  Glowing from the inside out.

• 1:57:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. So acne, but also psoriasis and eczema are all skin, skin health conditions that the gut microbiome has been damaged. You know, a quick, a quick story that's interesting. So I have four kids, my son, I have three girls and then I have one son, my son is eight. When he was really young, he had horrible eczema, like talking about, you know, three to six months old. He had horrible eczema. And we tried, you know, I'm a medical doctor and I was trying all the stuff. And, and he was also breastfed, so it wasn't that. And we, we tried everything we could, we couldn't get it better.

• 1:58:06Speaker 00

  And then we put him on a probiotic. And like literally within two days, the eczema cleared up. And and then my wife, I forget what, I think she, you know, went away for a weekend. She had something else that she had to do. So, you know, I was holding down the fort with the, with Lee and my son. And I dropped the ball and didn't give him his probiotic. Eczema came back. My wife gets home, she says, oh, you didn't give him the probiotic. She starts giving it to him and two days later it's gone again. It was like extremely convincing.

• 1:58:42André Duqum?

  So fascinating, man. There's just so many. There's, there's so many exciting avenues to continue exploring with you on how all of this is intertwined into an ecosystem. And it can get complex because we are such complex creatures. But I love the simplicity you bring to the understanding of the choices that we make build to the, to the life that we have. And we can slowly, even just shifting the ship one degree over the course of a year, we're in a different area, you know?

• 1:59:13Speaker 00

  That's so true. I really, I really believe that. And I think that like, I'm really glad that we got to talk about the impact of trauma. And I, what I want to say though, real quick, is that all these things that we talked about, they're all important. Food, sleep, exercise, dealing with trauma. But let me put this out there too. Not everyone, not everyone has trauma that needs to be healed. But what we do all need is we need human connection. And we're suffering through a crisis of loneliness right now. And the reason why is because there is zero connection value from your devices.

• 1:59:56Speaker 00

  Even when you are talking to another human, you get nothing from it. You need to actually sit down and connect with a person. And keep in mind, we talked in the beginning about like that we are tribal origins. Consider the fact that connection was not this superficial thing. I mean, I realized that like we both have social media accounts with a large number of followers, right? And I appreciate these people. But that doesn't empower me. That doesn't charge me up in the way that a connection with one person really is capable of doing. And the reason why is because coming from those tribal origins, it started with our family. And then the tribe was a family of families. And we knew that if there was a threat to the tribe,

• 2:00:40Speaker 00

  someone's stepping up, right? My partners are stepping up. I will protect my family, but then like I get so connected to you and your family that I'm going to make sure that you're okay too. And you're going to take care of me. And we survive together, right? And that's where we came from. And this is the reason why if you take a person and you hold them hostage, they will actually develop, you know, we call it Stockholm syndrome. They will actually become sympathetic to their captor. And you'd say, that's counterintuitive. That makes no sense. Why would they? This person is holding them hostage. Why would they become sympathetic to them? Because we need connections so desperately that we will take it even, even that way. And that's a survival mechanism. And so I want to share that.

• 2:01:22Speaker 00

  I think that we all would benefit regardless of history. We all would benefit from putting a greater emphasis in our lives on making times to connect with real people and not through devices. And the last thing I just want to say real quick is I also think that spiritual health is greatly needed in, in America and in the Western world right now. And to me, that is not defined by one specific belief. There are many different belief systems. But I think that there's a place that exists within our heart that can only be filled through a spiritual connection with a higher power and understanding our purpose of why we're here. Right? And the purpose is not like to make money. Like, what does that do for us?

• 2:02:07Speaker 00

  It's, you know, I'm not saying it's bad, but that's not going to fulfill you. And if it comes at the expense of your emotional connection to others, or if it comes at the expense of not being able to take a moment to step back and sort of connect to your higher purpose, you're missing out.

• 2:02:25André Duqum?

  Yeah, I really feel like a wealthy individual. Finances is one vertical, but like it's, it's, it's, it's small in comparison to everything else that really cultivates into somebody living a life well-lived. And it just feels like we outsource our lack of really being connected with others in search of so many different things without us being like fully cognizant of it. There is that African proverb that says, "A child who's not embraced by a village will burn it down to feel its warmth."

• 2:02:58Speaker 00

  We see that.

• 2:02:59André Duqum?

  And how many of us and throughout society are not embraced in a wider community, a family, a families, and we search and we yearn for that connection and that unity because it's ancestrally wired. It's also what our hearts yearn for. And it's fundamentally, I believe, what we all are connected at that deeper level. And when we live in a society that really kind of rewards this type of this sense of hyper individualism and separateness, we see that disconnection on so many levels. And it's been fascinating throughout this whole convo, how we see the link between the disconnection within others, in our environment, and within ourselves. So yeah, it's powerful.

• 2:03:40Speaker 00

  I feel like we just brought it completely full circle.

• 2:03:42André Duqum?

  Full circle. Yeah. This is great, man. And it's just such a pleasure to connect with you. And I know so much of this value is going to resonate with our community and audience. So, thank you. And yeah, do you have any other last notes before we head out where people can stay connected with you? And then anything else you want to share?

• 2:04:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, this has been, this has been really cool. And I'm glad we got to like, touch on all these things because many of these notes are sort of things that like I think about, or I talk to my wife about, but it doesn't necessarily get relayed on the usual podcasts. So it's fun that we got to talk about all these things. I would love for people to come and hang out and join my community. And I spend a lot of time trying to create an environment for learning and empowerment. The easiest way to do that is to go to my website, thegutholdmd.com, and sign up for my email list. It's completely free. It's a free resource. So you can definitely follow me on social media at thegutholdmd.

• 2:04:40Speaker 00

  And we didn't have much of a chance to touch on this, but I just also want to bring forward that I'm of the belief that like, diet comes first, that we should do lifestyle, and then there's this place for optimization with supplements. And I launched my own supplement company in January of 2024 called 38 Terra, 38 T E R A. And my motivation in doing that is that I was never satisfied with the quality of gut health supplements that were out there as a gastroenterologist. It was just... The formulas were not up to date. There was no transparency. Where's the third-party testing? So I felt like, you know what? There's an opportunity to try to do this better.

• 2:05:22Speaker 00

  And so this is something also for people who are interested in this topic. Definitely go and check out what we're doing there.

• 2:05:28André Duqum?

  Sweet, man. I love it. Thanks for sending some over, by the way. I'm excited to get on that consistently.

• 2:05:33Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 2:05:34André Duqum?

  All right, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Know thyself podcast. Let us know in what ways you're going to apply anything that you learned and you found uniquely valuable from this conversation. Until next time, be well. Thank you, man.