Kaitlyn Dever, Vol. II (THE LAST OF US spoilers!)

SPOILERS for THE LAST OF US season 2, episode 2! Kaitlyn Dever joins Josh to talk about her long history with THE LAST OF US, nearly playing Ellie, getting cast as Abby, her personal loss while filming, and shooting "the scene". #happysadconfused #joshhorowitz #thelastofus #kaitlyndever UPCOMING EVENTS! Tony Gilroy in NY 5/14 -- Tickets here! SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Quince -- Go to⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Quince.com/happysadco⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for 365 day returns and free shipping! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:57Speaker 02

  You know, Neil and I would keep in touch throughout the years and, you know,

• 1:02Speaker 02

  but I never, yeah, I hadn't seen him in a long time. And I was like, oh, I guess that's to play Abby. That's really interesting. I didn't know that they had like also, it was sort of like a meeting to talk about. They want me to play the, it's, there's no, I thought I was gonna read or do a thing. And it was just like, no, we want you to play Abby. And that was also like really shocking to me too. I was just like, what's going on?

• 1:31Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

• 1:39Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy Sad Confused. Last of Us fans, this one's for you. Kaitlyn Dever, Abby herself, is the guest today. That's right. Kaitlyn Dever is back on the podcast, one of our great young actors out there. And not only that, but she is starring in an iconic show, in an iconic role. Abby in The Last of Us, Season Two.

• 2:05Josh Horowitz?

  This conversation coming up in just a bit is going to cover what happens in Episode Two. So spoiler warnings. If you have not seen that episode, this episode is probably not for you. If you do not know the events of the second game, The Last of Us, this episode might not be for you. I'm gonna warn you guys again, but there I said it. Choose wisely. Before we get to that, a new event to announce, very excited to say I'm a big Star Wars fan. I'm sure a lot of you guys are. So we're going to dive into Andor, May 14th with Tony Gilroy. Tony Gilroy, brilliant writer, brilliant director, brilliant showrunner for Andor. This is his baby. It's going to be a live event, 92nd Street Y in New York City.

• 2:50Josh Horowitz?

  And it's going to be, I believe it's literally like the day or two right after the finale of season two of Andor. So there's going to be a lot to talk about. If you love Star Wars coming out, tickets are available. They just went on sale. The link is in the show notes, all that fun stuff. As always, early access, the first announcements of all these things, bonus materials, all that jazz. Patreon.com/happy say confused is your friend. Please try to support us there if you can. It just helps us make more cool stuff over here. Okay. I'm going to throw to our main event, which is Caitlin Dever. So Caitlin is, I've always been a fan of Caitlin. She's just like, she's just can do everything as far as I'm concerned.

• 3:29Josh Horowitz?

  Whether it's Booksmart, Detroit Ticket to Paradise, I mean, you know, unbelievable apple cider vinegar earlier this year on Netflix. If you haven't seen that, check that out. She can do drama. She can do comedy. She can sing. Big, big fan, if you can't tell. And now with a really juicy role on The Last of Us. You guys know Abby is a choice part, a controversial figure in the game and the series. As far as I'm concerned, and I've seen a bit of this new season, she is amazing. As I would expect she would be in this. And I will also say this conversation,

• 4:13Josh Horowitz?

  in addition to covering spoilers for episode two in particular, is a very open and emotional conversation. Caitlin lost her mom a little over a year ago and the timing of that very sad tragic loss is insane. As you'll hear straight from Caitlin, occurring right around when she shot this, actually this episode. And a scene in particular, I'll let her tell the story, but.

• 4:47Josh Horowitz?

  So yeah, this is, you know, a, a fun episode at times, but it's also an emotional episode to hear Caitlin tell that story. So I want to give you guys a heads up on that. But I'm very proud of this conversation. I always love catching up with Caitlin. She's a world away in Australia, shooting the new Godzilla King Kong movie. So I'm very appreciative of her taking the time out from that hectic shoot to come back on the podcast. Okay. Spoiler warning again, I'm gonna keep saying it, The Last of Us. Here we go. Kaitlyn Dever and I talking all things episode two, watch it. Or this might ruin things for you. I'm pointing, I'm pointing at you. If you have watched that episode, if you don't, the events

• 5:31Josh Horowitz?

  of The Last of Us two, proceed ahead and enjoy this conversation with Kaitlyn Dever. Look, she's halfway around the world. We have crappy internet, but none of this is gonna stop the love I have for Kaitlyn Dever. Her performances on Apple Cider Vinegar and The Last of Us. It's good to see you, my friend. How you, how you doing?

• 5:51Speaker 02

  No, it's, it's so good to see you too. I'm doing alright. How are you doing? It's been, it's been far too long since I've

• 5:57Josh Horowitz?

  Had the real thing. Yeah, well, you saw me, we saw each other very briefly at The Last of Us premiere. You were threatening to stab me in the eye.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 6:05Josh Horowitz?

  But that wasn't

• 6:06Speaker 02

  But in a formal way.

• 6:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, this is the formal deep dive. Welcome back to the podcast. You are, it should be said, you're back in Australia. And you are, you're doing a, checking another thing off the bucket list, I would expect. You're just getting started on a ginormous Godzilla King Kong movie. How's it going?

• 6:25Speaker 02

  It's going well. Again, I feel like I'm in such spoiler territories lately. I can't say anything about anything. But yeah, we, we started shooting not too long ago and it's been, yeah, just really exciting new, you know, totally new sort of world genre that I kind of haven't done this like, you know, type of action packed.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Big, big movie like this before. So it's, um, yeah, it's great. I love everyone I'm working with and, um, yeah, I, I can't stay away from Australia.

• 7:06Josh Horowitz?

  Right. So you obviously, you obviously shot, you obviously shot apple cider vinegar there. You're practically, you're practically a Hemsworth by now, basically.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  I mean, I feel like I'm a Hemsworth. Yeah.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  I'm a brother. I'm a Hemsworth brother.

• 7:21Josh Horowitz?

  You're the lost Hemsworth.

• 7:24Josh Horowitz?

  Are you shoot, are you shooting in the same part of, I mean, Australia is not exactly the smallest country on the, the planet, but are you staying around where you were for apple cider vinegar? Or are you exploring new parts of the country?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  New parts where like kind of where I was, um, we shot Ticket to Paradise on an island or most of the shoot was on an island.

• 7:44Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, right. Did that one too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've, yeah, this is the third project I've, I've done here now.

• 7:52Josh Horowitz?

  Crazy.

• 7:54Josh Horowitz?

  Take, take, take me with you. I'd like to escape myself. Is there room for another one?

• 7:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd love to take you. It's, um, I, I, I mean, I'm, I'm high on those Delta miles, you know what I'm saying?

• 8:07Josh Horowitz?

  You, you're beyond my silver medallion status. I have a feeling.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  It's so far. You are really so far when you're here. It's crazy. You can really feel it too, but it's, um, it's such a beautiful place. But yeah, I'm in this, a similar area that I was when I did Ticket to Paradise. Apple cider vinegar was shot in Melbourne, which I also really enjoyed. It's a lot like, and like a mixture between LA and New York.

• 8:30Josh Horowitz?

  Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. So let's start by doing, let's just go right into it. Let's start talking Last of Us. I've seen a bunch of episodes. I've already put in some spoiler warnings for folks. We are going to get into some definite spoiler territory. Uh, you guys have had a few days to see episode two, so we'll get into some of the amazing pivotal events in that episode. But before we even get into that stuff, educate me. I know this, but, but tell me how, how deep the gamer roots are within you. Not even just for The Last of Us, but did you grow up generally a gamer?

• 9:02Speaker 02

  Not really, honestly, I had like, you know, Mario, Super Mario or whatever it was, super, the one on the gray console thing.

• 9:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, Super Mario Brothers or Mario Kart, there are a lot of Marios out there.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  I played Mario Kart with the Wii.

• 9:23Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  Um, I think this is really showing my non gamer roots.

• 9:29Josh Horowitz?

  I'm like twenty years older than you, you're sounding really ancient right now, just so you know.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  I mean, well, I had that console, I think it was like a, like it was passed down, like I think it was my dad's or something. Let us play with it, but anyway, um, I, I've played, like, my dad is the gamer.

• 9:48Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  And I've played like an occasional, you know, PS4 game with him along, throughout the years and then,

• 9:58Speaker 02

  when The Last of Us came out, my dad got it and we played it together and then,

• 10:06Speaker 02

  throughout playing that game and then there was talk about The Last of Us becoming a movie and then I met Neil Druckmann a couple of times, um, to, to potentially play Ellie when they were making a movie and then, once that, you know, that obviously as, as movie making goes, it sort of disappeared for a long time. And then The Last of Us Two came out and I played like halfway into playing Abby. And then I just kind of, I was like, Dad, this is so, I can't, I'm not a good gamer also, I'm really not. But I can appreciate, especially a game like The Last of Us, because I've played other games with him and there's nothing

• 10:48Speaker 02

  that really compares to The Last of Us. Um, and I think that that's why I was so like drawn to it, was because it felt like, oh, this is a different game that he's playing, this feels like, I'm like watching a film or something. Um, and the storyline is so beautiful and, um, complex and it, yeah, it just stood out to me, um, when I was playing it with him, but yeah, the second game, I just, I, it's so long and it's also, I've, I've just not.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  Not good at playing.

• 11:21Josh Horowitz?

  Tell me that. Okay, so tell me, go back to me for a second on those early conversations you had with Neil. Like, did you allow yourself? I mean, this is kind of the thing, you know, actors get invested in characters even through conversations or auditions and you let your mind race and you start to like almost imagine yourself in the role. Like, how far down that road did you get in your mind about playing Ellie in a Last of Us film?

• 11:47Speaker 02

  I think it was, you know, so exciting to even be a part of that kind of conversation when I was that young. I think I was like 16 or 17 and, you know, I think, yeah, it just really felt like a big deal.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  And what I remember, like, the highlights of that, that time were just like going to Naughty Dog headquarters, I guess, and, and walking around with Neil and him showing me how the game is made. And I like really remember all of those details and he even showed me

• 12:32Speaker 02

  at one of our, I think we only really like, in the grand scheme of things, I think we only had like two meetings. And the second meeting, I really remember him showing me like parts of The Last of Us 2 when it was like early, early days of getting made, which was pretty crazy. And he told me what happens, which was also crazy. I've been sitting with this secret for so long.

• 12:57Josh Horowitz?

  Basically, Neil and you have known this for 12 years.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  So that was just, yeah, I've been holding this in my entire life. No, but I, I, yeah, I.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  I never like had the role of Ellie. It was never like,

• 13:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Okay, it was like a for sure thing. Um, but I was just excited to, you know, know him and, and learn from him and, and we did one table read. And, um, and then that's all that really hap- I mean, that's, that's it. That's really like the extent of where it got, I think, in the process. Yeah, the, the

• 13:42Speaker 02

  is really just like a couple of meetings with him and, you know, sort of months, months long conversations about, oh, is this gonna happen? Is this not gonna happen? Obviously, you know, it didn't end up happening, but I was just thrilled to the know of Neil because then, um, not long after I knew that the movie wasn't happening, um, he, he asked me to do Uncharted Four, which was a super cool experience. But yeah, it was, it was never like, I'd never had the role or it was never like ever an official, like none of it was official. So, um, but it still was, yeah, it's, it was still a part of my life and it was still like, you know, we would talk about it at the dinner table and, you know, at, with, with my family and, and it's been a part of

• 14:28Speaker 02

  my life for so long and it was something I always thought about. And then when the game, when the show came out, I just thought Bella and their portrayal of Ellie was just so brilliant and the show was so brilliant. I was like, wow, it really ended up, you know, it's, it's, it, it's so special. I was hoping it would do something and get made one day and then for it to come full circle back into my life, it really just, yeah, it was pretty surreal.

• 14:54Josh Horowitz?

  So when I had Craig on the podcast, he's been on the podcast a couple of times, most recently for the new season and we talked about your casting and, and to hear him say it, he says that's kind of towards the end of, um, the run of the first episodes of the first season, he and Neil started to have the conversation, okay, it's time to talk about Abby. And your name came up and it was sort of one of these things where it's like, they all were saying Caitlin and then that was kind of self-evident. If everybody was thinking that way, this is the way to go. Is that your, is the timeline jibe with your memory? Like, was the show on the air when Neil and Craig came to you?

• 15:36Speaker 02

  The show was, the show was on the air. It had, it had finished. I think I'd seen the whole show. I'd seen the whole season. Um, yeah, I'd seen the whole, like, all of season one, and I didn't hear a peep from them about any of that. So the fact that it was happening while they were still shooting, it's kind of crazy. I did not hear a word from them. And then I, I think it was-

• 16:06Josh Horowitz?

  Did you have in the back of your brain, like, Abby at this, like, had your mind shifted towards Abby?

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Not at all. No. I was just like, show's out, cool. You know, it's awesome. I'm a big fan.

• 16:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, I was, I genuinely was just like, a big fan of the show. Had no clue that I was even being considered for Abby at the time. And then it was, I got in, I got a meeting set with Neil and Craig. And, you know, Neil and I would keep in touch throughout the years and, you know, um, but I never, yeah, I, I hadn't seen him in a long time. And I was like, oh, I guess that's to play Abby. That's really interesting. I, I didn't know that they had, like, also, it was sort of like a meeting to talk about, they want me to play with, they, it's, there's no, otherwise, and like,

• 16:59Speaker 02

  I thought I was gonna read or do a thing, and it was just like, no, we want you to play Abby. And that was also, like, really shocking to me, too. I was just like, what's going on?

• 17:08Speaker 02

  What's happening? Um, and I, and I distinctly remember the timeline being around, um, I ran into Bella at the Met. And I introduced myself and I just, I, I was like, hey, I have a meeting, or no, she, like, I think it was, no, I said, I had a, I had a meeting with Craig and- They were like, yeah, we've been, they've been, they told me. I was like, okay.

• 17:41Josh Horowitz?

  Everybody knows about this, but me, was anybody gonna tell me?

• 17:47Speaker 02

  So, um, yeah, I had my meeting and I was like, oh, oh, it's great. Yes, sign me up. I'm, I'm, I, there was no, like, hesitation. It was just like, you know, it was a really nice meeting. We just were, you know, Neil and I were catching up. I was getting to know Craig and they were just, you know, telling me all about how the first season went and I was so, so game for it. It was like, kind of a dream come true. But yes, very, yeah, again, very, very surreal. I was like, whoa, I guess this was always like,

• 18:22Speaker 02

  like, meant to be in my life in some sort of way. It just found its way back to me in a really interesting way. So cool.

• 18:29Josh Horowitz?

  So, do you remember what you thought of Abby playing the game initially? And how that judgment connection or lack of has evolved now having gone through the motions of some of the deeds that she's done in this new season?

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. Um, I remember being just as shocked as obviously, I think, everyone who's played this game

• 18:57Speaker 02

  uh, was when they first played the game. I was just, I couldn't, I think it was like, my dad was like, here, gotta, he gave me the controller. He had already done, he had already played that scene. He's like,

• 19:11Speaker 02

  here you go. I couldn't, I was so shocked because she does just sort of come out of nowhere and uh, I remember, yeah, I remember being really heartbroken. I'm like, okay, how, how do we, how do we go on? You know, how do I go on? And then all of a sudden you're playing as Abby and it's a real, um,

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Like shift in point of view in like a really interesting way because for a while I was like,

• 19:47Speaker 02

  you know, the way it's cut in the game, like the scene happens and then all of a sudden you're playing as this, as this person that kind of resembles Ellie to me, like I that that was my first reaction. I was like, is this Ellie? Is this like a, what is this? And it took me a while to figure out, obviously that it's that it's not Ellie and then it's Abby. But I just, I really loved how they did that in the game. Um, where those two characters are kind of really like mirrors of each other in so many ways.

• 20:19Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 20:26Josh Horowitz?

  If I had a dollar for everybody in my life who's benefited from therapy, I would be a very, very rich man. Therapy has certainly helped me, especially when I was a confused teenager and thankfully, that's not a shameful thing to say anymore, right? It's okay to seek help and need help and talk about it. We're all doing our best. We're just trying to get by, right, guys? Unfortunately, the reality is that getting help is still harder than it should be. That's why I'm thrilled always to have Rula as a sponsor of Happy Say Confused because it's very obvious to me that online therapy should be both accessible and affordable for everybody. So let's make it easy for anybody who wants help to get help. That's where Rula comes in. Here's the thing, a lot of online therapy platforms don't actually talk about.

• 21:09Josh Horowitz?

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• 21:53Josh Horowitz?

  Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit rula.com/happy to get started. That's rula, R-U-L-A dot com slash happy. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. You guys know the best stuff in your closet is the stuff that you actually wear, right? The things that you just keep coming back to, whether you're going to work, you're going out, you're just hanging around. Well, with the holidays coming up, Quince makes it really easy to find great gifts for everyone on your list. This year, I'm doing a lot of my holiday shopping at Quince, and yes, that includes a few things for myself. That's okay, right? One of the things I love about Quince is that you're getting really high-quality stuff without spending a fortune.

• 22:35Josh Horowitz?

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• 23:19Josh Horowitz?

  I've got a cashmere hoodie that is honestly invaluable and actually makes me look like I know what I'm talking about when it comes to fashion, and that is a miracle. So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. It's now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you've heard about them, you know what to do. Let them know it was happy, sad, confused. That's the best way to support our show.

• 23:54Josh Horowitz?

  You talk about the circuitous nature of this and how it kind of came to you when it did. And you know, there's something about fate in there, etc. You could, you could say it also should be said, and you know, you have my profound condolences about the loss of your, your mom that occurred really right around by timeline, I think, right around when you were starting to shoot this, this series. And look, I mean, anybody that knows anything about Abby knows that this is a character motivated by, by grief, by profound grief. And how she reacts to that grief is questionable, but it's real. I don't know. I mean, give me a sense of like, I mean, I don't even know what the question is, except that like

• 24:38Josh Horowitz?

  you're going through all of this real stuff at the time that you're dealing with this extremely, I don't know, resonant character, I would imagine to your real life circumstances.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, yeah, it was such a, when I think back on the time, it was like such a, like so much of it is so blurry. I think I have talked to a lot of like, a lot of my friends who have also lost someone very close to them. They're, I feel like we all share that experience of just like total fog and like memory loss in a lot of ways. But leading

• 25:29Speaker 02

  up to the shoot, I think I was probably, I can't remember like what time of year it was, if we were using the Met as a starting point from that point. I don't know. It's like, what is it? May? I think, yeah. May. So it was, it was a year before I shot, I ended up starting the shoot. So what was cool is that my mom got to know about me getting the role. She got to be a part of those conversations. She was so excited about it. Like, like she was really like, I could, it was one of those moments like,

• 26:16Speaker 02

  Where I could really feel like my, my, my parent was like very proud of me and it was, I can like, it's a feeling I go back to a lot and, and a memory that I have of, of just, you know, um, that I, I, I'm, I hold, I hold it very, very close to my heart, that memory and just, and, and remember it very deeply. And then, yeah, her health started to decline around December and then January, like mid-January, I had to go, this is all very confusing, but January I had to finish like my last 10 days on apple cider vinegar. So I was shooting apple cider vinegar from October to January of

• 27:03Speaker 02

  twenty twenty-three.

• 27:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Twenty twenty-four.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Whatever year I saw The Last of Us, which was last year.

• 27:13Josh Horowitz?

  Your excuse for having a, a fall, because this is a lot, a lot.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  No, but the timeline is like, yeah, it was pretty, just, yeah, it was just a whirlwind of an ex, like a, just a whirlwind of, of a time, but

• 27:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  I, I remember going from apple cider vinegar to then like having to go prep in Vancouver for like three days. I do fittings and stuff. And then I went back and I was in the hospital with my, with my mom. Um, we were out February and I was having to go back up to Vancouver a couple of times. Um, I, yeah, randomly asked for days off. I, or not days off, but just like, I wanted to fly home for Valentine's Day weekend.

• 27:58Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  And that was when she, when she passed and that we were all together and all home and, and I, you know, yeah, her, her, and we, you know, had her funeral and then three days after her funeral, I had to fly back up to shoot my first day, which was the scene.

• 28:21Josh Horowitz?

  What?

• 28:22Speaker 02

  It was me big, that was my first day on set. Um. Which, you know, I had a whole monologue, you know, just it was just so, I ca- I can't, like, thinking back on that time.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  Uh, I can't even comprehend, you know, where I was, where I was at even now, or I hadn't processed anything. I was just sort of floating through sets, through life and, um. But there was a moment in time where I was just like, I can't, I can't go, like, I need my family to stay here. I'm scared to go up there by myself and, you know, uh, do this thing that my mom was so excited about. And uh, it was, it was, I remember it being a really tough moment and, and like, I don't, I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I have it in me to do

• 29:20Speaker 02

  it. And I think it was thinking about, specifically, there was one moment when my mom was still in the hospital and, um, I was up in Vancouver and I was doing like, um, combat training and they would put these, like, the stunt team would put together these really cool edited, like iPhone videos of like a compilation of all of the things I was learning how to. And they put it to this like really intense, like cool music. And I of course, snuck it to my parents. I probably was not allowed to do that, but I sent it to them. And, um, my, my dad told me that it, which, you know, she said that was the coolest thing I've ever seen. It

• 30:04Speaker 02

  was just like a simple little thing and simple video, but like, I, I kept going back to that and just like how I, you know, sort of, I did all of this for her. Like I did all of it to make her proud and.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  So that's what kept me going and, and I can't, I can't even begin to tell you how taken care of I was by the, this, this group of wonderful people. I, I.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  They were so respectful. They were so accommodating. They ended up like flying my family out to come and stay with me and they it just like the whole just

• 30:50Speaker 02

  it's such a wonderful group of people. And I remember talking to my dad about it and I was just like, man, I really I just love all of these people so much and how sweet they all are and how sweet they've been. And my dad was like, I don't know if it were any other job, what it would have been like, because I, you know, if the timing had worked out and you were in a different job, like, I don't know how this would have just don't know how this would have been for you. But the fact that it was, you know, they were all so like caring and kind and supportive of, you know, me and just, yeah, I can't I can't even really believe it. I can't

• 31:32Speaker 02

  even really put it into words how how they how they made me feel and how taken care of I felt.

• 31:36Josh Horowitz?

  So I did not I did not realize that that's I'm blown away. I mean, and I and I really connect on a number of levels. I mean, a totally different way. Like, my dad passed in 2020, and I remember

• 31:48Speaker 02

  So sorry.

• 31:49Josh Horowitz?

  No, I appreciate that. And I remember like, not I did a Zoom interview that night with George Miller, and I didn't want to cancel it because and I remember talking to like, you know, you're in that other fugue state. And I remember talking to him about like how like, a lot of what I do is because of the love of film that my dad had and how like it felt like honoring him in a way to continue to do the work. And so I, in my own small way, I hear you and, you know, wanting to carry on the work and and and finding your happy place, which is not just family, but the work you do. And I'm so happy that Neil and Craig created

• 32:32Josh Horowitz?

  a safe place for you in that circumstance. It's crazy.

• 32:37Josh Horowitz?

  So that scene, okay, so obviously by now, everybody knows.

• 32:41Speaker 02

  Now we're there.

• 32:43Josh Horowitz?

  Everybody knows what that scene is. So the, it's like, I feel like we're both like, can we even say what happened? We can say what happened because people by now know.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  We can say it.

• 32:50Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. So obviously this is Joel's death and it is just such a traumatic event to, to watch in both the game and in this remarkable scene between all of you. In the show, what happens after? Like, is there a period of, I don't know, do you and Pedro get drinks? Like, is there like a, like a mourning period? Um, just give me a sense of the aftermath of, of shooting that remarkable sequence.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Oh, the aftermath was, um, what did we do? I mean, I think it just, you could, you could sense the, the shift, I guess, and, and really like the crew, you know, behind Video Village, because I, I was able to watch, like, um, I was able to watch the monitor for the Ellie-Joel moments at the very end of that, that whole sequence and

• 33:52Speaker 02

  that, that was really like,

• 33:57Speaker 02

  that really, really, uh, really got me. Um, and you could feel, yeah, you could feel a shift.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Since, you know, a lot of the same crew, um, from season one and, and

• 34:14Speaker 02

  they, they just spent so much time. I mean, you know, Bella and Pedro have such a beautiful relationship that is so, it's just really a special thing to sort of get to witness in person and, and see that love, um, in real life. It really, it's really real.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  And it just was just so heartbreaking. Um, and I think, yeah, it was just sort of an, you could feel this like end of an era in a lot of ways. You know, for, for the characters specifically and, and their journey together in the show and in the story, but also just uh, this sort of family that they had created. And I, I definitely know what that feeling feels like and for.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Him to now not um

• 35:09Speaker 02

  be a part of the of the story is definitely, you know, uh heartbreaking for so many reasons, but um it was it was really sad. That's I I I I they only did it a few times that last moment that they, you know, she just holds his body and that it just it was really intense to watch um.

• 35:37Josh Horowitz?

  For for you as an actor.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  They just did a beautiful job.

• 35:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Like, are you able, like, you know, when I was watching that scene, like, when the tear comes for you, like, is that like something that, like, just happens? Or is it like, is are you in control of your own instruments enough that, like, I am going to, I want the tear to come at this point? I I ca- can you do that? Or is it just sort of like, if it comes, it comes?

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Um, I I feel like it's so different each job.

• 36:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  Um, on every, I feel like it's so different on every job. Um, but that do like doing that in particular.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just, I I I

• 36:24Speaker 02

  the writing was so good that and I we had to I had to do that chunk of mon- like the the big monologue part, like a a lot. I had to do it many times because there were so many different angles to get and I wanted to, you know, do it, you know, full on every single time and um I just remember it feeling so real and and remembering sort of those emotions and those feelings being so raw for me that uh

• 37:01Speaker 02

  I really, you know what, I will say this too, like

• 37:06Speaker 02

  those two days, I just really felt my mom, and I don't know if you have this experience at all, but I just really felt her in like a in a in a big bigger way. Um, and I felt like I was being sort of carried through and I was just sort of allowing whatever.

• 37:25Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  There was, I was just allowing for that to happen and, and sort of just going with the flow. And when, when the dialogue is that good, it, it, it's sort of just, you just sometimes just have to let that breathe. And, um, but yeah, the, the, the tears, I feel like they were coming at different times every, every time, every day.

• 37:56Josh Horowitz?

  I can imagine. Sure. No, I get it.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. But that scene was shot over two days.

• 38:02Josh Horowitz?

  That's quite a head, quite a headspace to be in. That's crazy.

• 38:12Speaker 00

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• 39:13Josh Horowitz?

  So we're taping this before obviously people at the world has seen the episode. Like, are you going to be going on Reddit, like on social media? Because people are going to talk.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I'm, you know, how can, how am I supposed to just, I'm just gonna put my phone away. Just gonna set it aside and I'm gonna watch Gilmore Girls for the weekend. No, I'm certainly gonna be looking at it all and, um. Yeah, I can't not.

• 39:43Josh Horowitz?

  Of course.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Stay away.

• 39:44Josh Horowitz?

  Of course. I mean, are you curious, like, I mean, like, and Craig said this to me, like, you know, obviously, he casts you as Abby, not just for this part of the arc, but where she goes and how she does, you know, develop and turn into a bit of a protagonist. And that's a quite a journey. Considering what we see in episode two, um. Talk to me a little bit about, I don't know, what that journey has been like so far for you and what's to come in the next season. And I mean, that's a challenge to start at this place, essentially, of betraying an audience and murdering in cold blood. The most beloved actor such character on television.

• 40:27Josh Horowitz?

  And then to somehow, somehow earn the trust of an audience and empathy.

• 40:32Speaker 02

  Right. No, I've definitely thought about that.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Um, definitely crossed my mind. No, um. I think that the way that they have structured the show so far is obviously different from the game in that I feel like we're given a little bit more context to Abby and who she is. Where she comes from, what drives her in the game. We don't get any of that. So it's, it's instantly, and I was even just like, who the, who, who is this? And this is just like an awful person that's coming in and killed Joel and.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  With the show, it it it definitely set it up in a different way, which I think is is helpful for exactly what you're what you're referring to, which is just allowing people to to to see what is driving her and and and be be able to see a little bit more how that how that grief is sort of the the thing that leads her to, I guess, getting to that that goal that she sets

• 41:59Speaker 02

  for herself in episode one. And I think that that is is important for her journey. And again, you know, I I when I was prepping for the role, you know, you start to really think about everything that that makes up who she is and and again, how how deeply angry she is and and she's and but she's she's also a very broken person. And but when I was doing the prep and and really contemplating how I wanted to, you know, play her, sort of dawned on me that like

• 42:44Speaker 02

  she's not all that different from a lot of the other people in this in this world and in this game, in the world of this game, you know. So I think people will get to see that and recognize that as as this, you know, the season goes on. But, yeah, I I I I don't know what, you know, I've I've, yeah, we just got picked up for season three. So I it's it's a whole, so yeah, it's a it's a long journey ahead.

• 43:20Josh Horowitz?

  Is that now that it's official? I mean, not that, I mean, obviously, of course, there was going to be another season, but it's official. Um, is there a specific scene, part of the character moment that you're excited that you haven't covered yet from the game that you hope is covered in what Neil and Craig come up with in season three?

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Oh gosh. Um. I mean, yeah, I have no idea what their plan is at all, really. Um, I have no idea how they're gonna structure anything. Um, I guess I'm just, yeah, I'm, I'm excited to like, get to some like, perhaps like more flashback stuff that could be exciting and also get into like more Abby and Owen dynamic. I think that is a really, um, you know, interesting part of the game, but I have no idea what they have planned.

• 44:18Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  And I'm also scared to.

• 44:22Josh Horowitz?

  That's okay, it's okay.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Just scared now.

• 44:25Josh Horowitz?

  Don't be scared, don't be scared. This is a happy place. Um, I, I will say, I mean, I alluded to the fact that, um, Australia is a connection for you, not only from Ticket to Paradise, but Apple Cider Vinegar, which we never got a chance to catch up on, but was an exceptional performance, an amazing, and, and, and weirdly a through line connective. I mean, you could argue this is the year of Caitlin Diver playing these kind of questionably morally ambiguous neuro anti-heroes. I don't know, I mean, I don't know what you're asking your agents to pursue.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  I said hero, anti-hero, that's the year of 2024, 2025. Um, sort of play questionable.

• 45:10Josh Horowitz?

  But it must feel.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  It sort of happened.

• 45:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  Like what happened?

• 45:13Josh Horowitz?

  It must feel, you must take a certain satisfaction. I know you've talked a lot about, just from a purely technical standpoint, the accent insane. And also not to mention, like, when I was watching it, my wife, I was like, looking at all the other actors. I'm like, I think she's the only non-Australian. Like, that's ballsy to be like, in the middle of it, having to do that accent where everyone else is like. Um, so do you feel, feel a little bit of achievement unlocked between Apple Cider Vinegar and, and the challenges of The Last of Us, these, these last two gigs?

• 45:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I certainly do. I feel like it definitely feels like

• 45:56Speaker 02

  both of these, both The Last of Us and Apple Cider Vinaigre. I feel like I've tapped into like maybe another level of intensity and I think that that is something I've always, you know, I want to continue. I think I've told you this on a past pod, but just like, you know, I'm always wanting to challenge myself. And so the fact that I was able to do

• 46:28Speaker 02

  two very intense

• 46:31Speaker 02

  shows where I was really using like a whole, like totally different muscles like within the same year is really just like, yeah, I feel so lucky.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  I was truly shocked when the team at CSUN with Apple Cider Vinaigre came to me with this role. I thought that they sent it to the wrong person. I thought that sent it to the wrong email. I genuinely thought like, okay, I don't understand. I've never done, like, it's always been like for every role that I've ever done. It's always been, well, you haven't done that thing before. So you can't get this role because you haven't done the thing before. Right. So I'm like, I've never even attempted to do an Australian accent. I remember Billy, Billy Lord, when we were doing Ticket to Paradise, he would always like tap into her.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  He's, she's very good at doing the accent too. I was too like, I couldn't, I was never doing it with her. She's like, when she saw the show, she's like, why didn't you ever do the Aussie accent with me? Cause I didn't know how at the time. But no, it, it, yeah. It was such a challenge and yes, it was so scary to be the only American on the job. Like

• 47:50Speaker 02

  I think that's why I was the most nervous because I just know everyone's gonna be judging, you know, I knew, you know, I started learning the accent probably like three months before I actually started shooting and oh my God, I Everyone's gonna be listening to every single.

• 48:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Every single little thing. And I think I don't know how I. I really don't know how I, how I got through it, but I, I, I know that like I had an amazing, um, like. Amazing dialect coach named Jenny Ken. She was with me every single day and that's how I got through it. And then I was just like super, like hard on myself. And I think because. I don't know. I just heard everything that I did wrong for each like take that we did. I just, I could. I could only hear what I did wrong. And so, um, she like, we would go in a little corner and we'd go over.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  You know, like little tiny words within sentences and, um, I just wanted to perfect it because it was just like, I, I. I just felt like it was a huge responsibility and, uh, I just had, I felt like I needed to get it right. I really didn't want to. Mess it up.

• 49:16Josh Horowitz?

  You, you definitely did not. You don't, and, and beyond just the accent, it's just, yeah, a remarkable performance. Um. And you told me before, I remember on, on the last pod that auditions are always terrifying. The good news is it sounds like from these like latest roles. A little bit less auditioning. They're just saying, you can do this. We want you to do this. What was the last? Have you had any terrifying auditions? In the last six months or year that have traumatized you?

• 49:44Speaker 02

  You know, actually, no, I haven't. Um.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  Oh gosh. I've been like wanting, you know what? I was like, I hate audition. And then I've been really kind of like.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  Craving an audition recently. I think between, I think between the strike and then. Doing like, once you're actually shooting something, you don't get auditions. And so like from, you know.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like it's just worked out like timing wise it didn't I didn't I haven't gotten an audition because I just yeah I got I was shooting Apple Cider and then I was shooting The Last of Us and then I kind of took a little like break but um I do kind of like I want to I want to go back in like actually go into an audition room like not do a Zoom audition I want to go like in to audition I miss those nerves and this

• 50:39Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say should we should we manifest a Christopher Nolan audition a Quentin Tarantino audition you want in the room with Greta who do you want to get in the room with

• 50:48Speaker 02

  I probably I definitely want to get into the room with Greta

• 50:56Speaker 02

  Quentin yeah I'd say both of those

• 51:00Josh Horowitz?

  You'll take

• 51:00Speaker 02

  Honestly like I'll take I'll take any audition honestly at this point

• 51:05Josh Horowitz?

  Fair enough I do think like you're after the roles we've discussed maybe it's time for another musical another another light ticket to paradise something a bit of a palate cleanser just for your we want you to just enjoy life

• 51:20Speaker 02

  I you know I was just realizing that the other day like how I've only done pretty intense and sad things for the last few years and um I would like to do a comedy soon

• 51:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Don't know what that'll be but it'd be nice

• 51:41Josh Horowitz?

  I I heard you mention you saw a Oh Mary here I saw too unbelievable right we is theater in New York on the list come on Caitlin

• 51:50Speaker 02

  I mean I know I

• 51:51Josh Horowitz?

  Do it

• 51:52Speaker 02

  I would I would love that I was actually living in New York for like two or three months just once I finished The Last of Us officially which was like in August or something um I took myself to New York just to sort of like

• 52:12Speaker 02

  Not do anything, not work and just, just literally live there. And I saw Oh Mary, yeah, three times.

• 52:24Josh Horowitz?

  I always, I saw, I saw with Betty Gilpin, who was amazing. I didn't see it with Cole. Um, and I know that's.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  You, I mean,

• 52:31Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, yeah.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Betty, I'm sure it was incredible, but Cole.

• 52:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  It's just like a whole other experience.

• 52:38Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  I've never seen anything like it. I'm obsessed and, and they're, they're back on.

• 52:44Josh Horowitz?

  I know, I know.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  Leave.

• 52:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  You gotta go.

• 52:46Josh Horowitz?

  I know, I will.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  You have to go.

• 52:48Josh Horowitz?

  I will. I'm seeing a lot of theater, it's Tony season, so I'm catching up with everything right now. Yeah, there's a lot of really amazing stuff. Um, okay, we're gonna end with this. I'm gonna let you go to Battle Godzilla and King Kong before we do that. Um, be happy, confused, profoundly random questions. Caitlin, you ready? Here we go.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 53:05Josh Horowitz?

  Dogs or cats?

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Dogs.

• 53:10Josh Horowitz?

  Say it proud, don't feel, don't apologize. No, no, you don't feel elaborate, if you don't want to, it's okay.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  No, I was sort of eye rolling at cats.

• 53:17Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, wow. Cat hate.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  I'm sorry.

• 53:20Josh Horowitz?

  No, I don't care.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  You have a dog? Do you also have a cat? Okay.

• 53:22Josh Horowitz?

  No, no, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a cat person. You're in a safe place. Don't worry. It's okay.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  It, yeah. Do I need to elaborate?

• 53:28Josh Horowitz?

  No, you're okay. You've already, you've already alienated the cat lobby. You've already destroyed your career. Don't worry. Um, what do you collect, if anything?

• 53:40Speaker 02

  Um, okay. Uh, it used to be snow globes.

• 53:48Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  Or no, first it was Beanie Babies, then it was snow globes, then it was like vintage concert tees. And then, I'm gonna try, still collect those, but now it's like sconces and small lamps.

• 54:09Josh Horowitz?

  A woman of refined taste. You've gone from, yeah, like, you know, I'm hip, early twenties, bands, and now it's like, hmm, that lamp would go nicely over there.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. I like them when they've got a little switch on them. Anyway.

• 54:26Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  All right.

• 54:27Josh Horowitz?

  Favorite video game of all time?

• 54:31Speaker 02

  Last of Us.

• 54:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, I got it. You gotta go.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:35Josh Horowitz?

  This is the Dakota Johnson memorial question. She asked me this provocative question. Would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 54:46Speaker 02

  I think one bee in my butt.

• 54:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Yeah. That's the conventional wisdom.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  I don't want, I'm like, I'm, I don't like bugs in general. I mean, I love bees. I always wanna, I do love bees. I have, I actually haven't, knock on wood, I haven't actually technically been stung by one. I only got stung by a bee because I slowly stepped on one and stinger, I didn't end up killing, well, the sting, the gurwin in me, so I guess, yeah, that's, but.

• 55:17Josh Horowitz?

  The circle of life.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  But, um, no, I definitely don't want a mouthful of bees. That'd be crazy.

• 55:25Josh Horowitz?

  No, don't worry. We're not gonna make that happen. What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 55:31Speaker 02

  Wanna see it?

• 55:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  It's, that's my, my family. My mom, my two sisters, my dad.

• 55:39Josh Horowitz?

  The sweetest. Love it, love it. Last actor you were mistaken for?

• 55:45Speaker 02

  Uh, it's always, it's, yeah, it's Julia Garner. We're always, yeah, we look very similar. I love Julia. She's amazing. She's, it's, she's an incredible actor. Um.

• 56:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, you were great in Ozark. You were amazing in that. I was gonna mention.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you. I worked so hard. I won Emmys. It was, it was, what a, what a thrill.

• 56:13Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, worst, worst noted director has ever given you?

• 56:18Speaker 02

  Oh, worst note? Um, just like, act like a girl?

• 56:29Speaker 02

  Not great.

• 56:31Josh Horowitz?

  No, not great.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  Exactly. What does that mean?

• 56:34Josh Horowitz?

  What did you say? Did you just kind of?

• 56:38Speaker 02

  Ah, you know, I was young and I was just like, I was like, early twenties. I was like, okay, thank you. You know?

• 56:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Yeah. You took it in and then said, you know what? In about six years, I'm going to mention you on a podcast. So.

• 56:55Josh Horowitz?

  And finally, in the spirit of happy, sag infused, an actor who always makes you happy.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  Um, uh, honestly, I'm gonna, it's Pedro.

• 57:07Josh Horowitz?

  It's a good answer.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  Just seeing him in interviews, seeing him in film and TV, it just brings a smile to my face.

• 57:15Josh Horowitz?

  A movie that always makes you sad.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Oh, now it's, oh, up.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  The, the Titanic?

• 57:35Josh Horowitz?

  After all that, you went deep. You went all the way 97. Okay, cool. I mean, it's a classic. Yeah, that's, it should. It's a very sad movie.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  I stay away from it because it's so sad.

• 57:47Josh Horowitz?

  We're Jack.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  I know. Rarely, I rarely watch it. I like, I've only seen it a few times.

• 57:56Josh Horowitz?

  And a food.

• 57:57Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 57:58Josh Horowitz?

  A food that makes you confused. This is the final one. Food that makes you confused.

• 58:02Speaker 02

  Okay, eggplant, because sometimes, like, why is it good sometimes?

• 58:09Josh Horowitz?

  Right. You know, you're not, you're not the first. It's a Barry Keoghan also went eggplant. So you share, maybe great, great actors of your generation hate eggplant, apparently.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  I'm a big fan of his. I mean, yeah, I don't know what's going on with the eggplant. Can't really get to the bottom of that.

• 58:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Well, we'll continue that. We'll continue that on the next chat. To be continued. Um, thank you, uh, for this conversation. Thank you for taking the time away from your, um, your busy set out there and, um, and thank you for being so open. And I know this kind of conversations, that's a lot to talk about. And I, you know, thank you just for the open, emotional honesty and, um, and congrats honestly on, on both of these performances. Apple Cider Vinegar, that's on Netflix and The Last of Us, um, is extraordinary. I've gotten a sneak peek at a bunch of episodes. So, uh, congratulations and on to season three. Here we go.

• 59:07Speaker 02

  Here we go. Thank you so much for having me.

• 59:11Josh Horowitz?

  Of course, anytime.

• 59:14Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 59:33Speaker 00

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