Emilio Estevez

Emilio Estevez ran away from early fame only to now come full circle with it. He joins Josh to talk about revisiting his early works, from THE BREAKFAST CLUB and THE MIGHTY DUCKS to YOUNG GUNS. SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Quince -- Go to⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Quince.com/happysadco⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for 365 day returns and free shipping! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:57Speaker 02

  I didn't do it for money. I didn't do it for the fame. I didn't do it for recognition. Yeah. And I think that's why it was so uncomfortable to come to these things and be recognized. In my opinion, there's no movie, there's no crops, you know, there's no bushel of corn to sort of put to market. There's no film to screen and we can have a Q and A about it after the fact and talk about what we just saw. This is commerce. And the commerce part of it, the business part of show business is something that I've never been comfortable with.

• 1:29Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

• 1:37Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy Sad Confused. Today's main event is Emilio Estevez. A very, very cool one for Happy Sad Confused listeners and watchers today. Welcome to the podcast, guys. I want to give you a little bit backstory and context for this one because it's a cool, it's a cool story. First up, if you hear some drilling in the background, I'm living in hell. There's massive construction outside my window. I apologize. I don't know what to do. Bottom line is I need to record an intro, so we're just going to make it work, right, guys? All right. So I'm just back from Chicago. I was a host for a number of events at C2E2. This is a fantastic event from the folks that make New York Comic Con. They invited me

• 2:21Josh Horowitz?

  out there for the first time, where I hosted panels with the cast of Robocop, Once Upon a Time, John Boyega, which will be a podcast episode we're airing very soon here, and a 40th anniversary gathering of The Breakfast Club. That conversation lives elsewhere online. If you just Google Breakfast Club reunion, you will find it in its entirety. You can enjoy it at your leisure. It was a really amazing opportunity. And the way it all happened is kind of fascinating. I was asked to moderate a bunch of things. Initially, this was going to be a conversation with most of the cast, but not Emilio Estevez, which was not surprising.

• 3:03Josh Horowitz?

  Emilio, if you know anything about The Breakfast Club, has avoided doing reunions, hasn't done one reunion, one photo op, one appearance at the Oscars, nothing, nothing for 40 years. Somewhere along the line, I was told through intermediaries that not only was Emilio now interested in finally attending and participating, but that he wanted to come on the podcast too. This was in fact part of his interest. He wanted to come because it was in Chicago, because it was the 40th anniversary, because apparently he's a fan of the podcast, which is very amazing and humbling to hear, and that he wanted to come on and just have a long chat about everything that's going on in his career and some exciting upcoming

• 3:48Josh Horowitz?

  opportunities. So, wow. That was amazing that it all lined up that way. And like I said, the video is out there. It's been seen a lot. The photos are everywhere. It was a really, it was a really emotional special moment to have Emilio part of it and to have 1,200 folks in that theater just embrace him and the entire cast. So, wow. I don't know, you're still processing that event, and I will be for a long, long time. As for the one-on-one with Emilio, we taped that the next day at C2E2 with, again, some noise issues. We were kind of in the middle of the convention center, so apologies if you hear some other stuff, but.

• 4:31Josh Horowitz?

  This was a pretty cool ran- not random, but rare treat to sit down with Emilio and have an extended career conversation. He doesn't do a lot of this, um, and he was so open, so fantastic, talking about, you know, his beginnings, obviously the son of Martin Sheen and being, growing up on sets, amazing stories of being on the set of Apocalypse Now, um, to his kind of heyday, you know, in the eighties and nineties as an actor in the middle of that Brat Pack era. Um, and then, you know, his directing efforts and now where he's at now, which is this really interesting point, and you'll hear it from Emilio himself

• 5:11Josh Horowitz?

  in a second, um, where he's kind of now reconciled with those roles that once he maybe resented is too strong a word, but certainly shied away from and certainly didn't embrace. Um, whether it's Young Guns or Maximum Overdrive or even The Mighty Ducks. Um, I was really fascinated to see where he's at in his career right now, where he's kind of making those early roles that he kind of ran away from at a certain point work for him. Um, headline here, and it'll probably, hopefully folks will pick up on this, is, um, the third Young Guns movie is real. He has a script, he has a cast coming together, he has returning

• 5:56Josh Horowitz?

  cast members that he talks about in this conversation. This is certainly the most extensive extensively he's talked about the Young Guns, um, sequel that he is going to direct. That's awesome. Uh, but he also talks about two other scripts that I had not heard about. I don't think it has been reported anywhere for other sequels to old Emilio Estevez films. So, um, it, this was, yeah, kind of a pin tree moment. You know, we all, I, I grew up with Emilio Estevez in his films and I respect him so much as an artist, as a filmmaker, as an actor, uh, as a human being, following in the footsteps of his, his, um, social activist father, Martin. Um, a real treat, a real, real treat. Um, before we get to the Emilio conversation, as always,

• 6:40Josh Horowitz?

  If you want to get early access bonus materials, we have a cool special video diary that we're putting together, maybe up by now. From C2E2, including a little cameo from our very own Sam Hewin. That we're gonna put up just for the Patreon folks. Patreon.com/happysecondfused. There's merch, there's discount codes, lots of live events coming up, some really cool stuff. In the next, in May, that we're about to announce. So, stay tuned. And I've rambled on long enough, but I did want to give you guys a little context, because this was an unusual one and a special one for a variety of reasons. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Emilio Estevez. All right, shall we shove off?

• 7:21Speaker 02

  Yes, indeed.

• 7:22Josh Horowitz?

  All right, Emilio Estevez, welcome to Happy Second Fuse, man. It's good to see you, buddy.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Nice to see you and nice to be here, thank you.

• 7:29Josh Horowitz?

  Look, this is an unusual circumstance. I mean, usually sometimes, you know, I'm seeing folks back in New York, over Zoom. We're in a, we're in an odd kind of amazing place. We're at C2E2 in Chicago. I just want to give some context to this, because yesterday, The Breakfast Club reunited for the first time.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:45Josh Horowitz?

  Forty years. How did you get here? Tell me the backstory, because this is kind of amazing.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Kicking and screaming. And that's the only, I mean, it's kicking and screaming. This is something that has really, something that I... To use the word avoid is not, I don't think, the correct word to use. It's, it's, it just hasn't been top of mind. I famously rejected reunions, whether it was Repo Man reunion, or Outsiders reunion, or St. Elmo's, or, I mean, I've, again, I've been very blessed to be part of these amazing ensembles for films that have sort of transcended, transcended generations. And it's, it's a blessing on one hand, but then it's like, okay, the movie had an impact, and it continues to.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  So therefore, there must be a reunion. And so, over the years, they've said, well, why doesn't Emilio show up? Where is he? Why is he the holdout? Molly at one point called me, he's the Greta Garbo of the group, and he just refuses to participate. And then, like we talked about in the panel, I heard earlier this year that, from, through a mutual friend, she said, does he just not like us?

• 9:04Josh Horowitz?

  Then it gets personal. No.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Exactly. And I thought, come on, man. That's not it at all. It's just not my thing. It never has been. And so I thought if I was ever going to do it, that and as I said on the panel yesterday, is that if I was ever going to do it would be, it would be this.

• 9:19Josh Horowitz?

  Chicago.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Chicago.

• 9:20Josh Horowitz?

  It's a good year.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  A full year. And with you, frankly, because it's not, you're a true cinephile. And I knew that the questions you would ask and in terms of being a well-prepared moderator would be, would carry a certain weight that maybe others wouldn't.

• 9:45Josh Horowitz?

  Appreciate that.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  And I knew you wouldn't take the moment for granted.

• 9:48Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  And so.

• 9:50Josh Horowitz?

  Goosebumps. I still have it just talking about it now. And we were talking yesterday. I mean, like, you know, this builds up this anticipation over years. And you were nervous. And then in the moment, it's overwhelming. It is. You walk into that room, 1,200 people, all have this deep connection with you. How did it feel to be in that building?

• 10:07Speaker 02

  I got very emotional.

• 10:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  I didn't anticipate that I would tear up in the way that I did. And then I was hoping, I was like, please don't let Josh ask me the first question because I'm just going to start crying. And I thought, OK, good. He went to Judd. He went to Molly. And I was like, I got a minute now to sort of recompose myself. But it was overwhelming. And to see Michael and to see Molly, who I haven't really seen, I'm going to say in over 35 years.

• 10:38Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, my God.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  If not longer. Judd and I have stayed in touch over the years. Ally and I have as well. But for the most part, we haven't been in the same room, in the same space for many years.

• 10:52Josh Horowitz?

  So I don't necessarily expect you to suddenly start doing 1,000 conventions. But hopefully it does reignite these relationships in some way. I mean, that could be a nice blessing.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, you know, we are talking about a St. Elmo's Fire sequel. They hired, Sony Pictures, they're fast-tracking it. They've hired Stuart Blumberg, who wrote "The Kids Are Alright",

• 11:15Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  A frequent collaborator with Lisa Chiledenko,

• 11:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Who directed "Ali" and "Hire".

• 11:19Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  So Stuart's writing the screenplay. We'll see what happens. I know Rob is keen on it. He's very quick to talk about it.

• 11:26Josh Horowitz?

  He's been talking to him way better, yeah.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Every time he gets on a red carpet, Rob talks about St. Elmo's Fire.

• 11:30Josh Horowitz?

  I think Demi said that she's down for it, yeah.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  We're talking about it now. But it will really depend on the script. But I know the studio's keen on it.

• 11:39Josh Horowitz?

  Crazy.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  I know. We've talked about the storyline. It's interesting.

• 11:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  It's very big chili, which is not, you know, would probably not be a surprise to anyone.

• 11:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  But I think it's, listen, we'll see.

• 11:57Josh Horowitz?

  It'll be a chance to find the right filmmaker, too, to actually direct.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Right. I know Will Gluck is producing.

• 12:03Josh Horowitz?

  Oh.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  But here's an interesting thing, too. We talked about conventions and getting me to them. When Ange Giannetti, the studio executive at Sony, reached out to Lauren Shuladonna, the original producer on the film, Lauren said, "You will never get Emilio."

• 12:18Josh Horowitz?

  You have this aura about you now.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  "You will never get Emilio. He will never show up for this." And Ange said, "Well, see." And then I got a call from Ange. She said, "Do you want to have lunch?" I said, "Sure. Sure." So maybe it's just a part of my maturation, sort of my sort of letting things go.

• 12:38Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Because I think, and again, I've said this in the past, I've always wanted to look and move forward. I've always never wanted to look in my rear-view mirror and talk about what I've done. If you walk into my house, you don't know what I do for a living.

• 12:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Because there's no movie posters, there's no memorabilia, there's nothing. I celebrate other artists.

• 13:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Just not myself. And that's kind of how I'm wired.

• 13:04Josh Horowitz?

  I get it. And look, I mean, you've had an unusual life and career where like... You have been defined by a lot of work early in your career.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 13:14Josh Horowitz?

  And you've made a real point of establishing this other, this, you know, your true artistic life, if I were to assess it, is your directing work, I would imagine.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:24Josh Horowitz?

  That's the personal stuff, of course.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  It is.

• 13:26Josh Horowitz?

  But for a young man to be defined by the first five or 10 years of films that just happen to come their way, that you don't even have a choice in.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 13:35Josh Horowitz?

  As a burden, as much as a blessing.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Without a question, without a question. It is, like we were talking about yesterday, the movies pick you, you don't pick the movies. And there are 200 auditions that you go to before you get into that, the list of the final three.

• 13:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  And then you're the guy. And you understand how it works, you know, the longer the process goes. I was very fortunate to be in The Outsiders, and Breakfast Club, and St. Helmut's Fire, all ensembles.

• 14:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  And people assume that it was a choice. Well, it wasn't. But then, but to your question, I grew up on some really extraordinary film sets.

• 14:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  I mean, starting at six years old, I'm on the set of Catch 22, directed by Mike Nichols in Mexico, and the cast is Alan Arkin, and Orson Welles, and Martin Bassem, and John Voight, and Art Garfunkel, and Martin Sheen. And so, you know, there you are, and as a boy, watching this, admittedly, not a great movie, but still.

• 14:45Josh Horowitz?

  But a curiosity, to say the least.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  And coming right off of The Graduate, so Mike Nichols was.

• 14:50Josh Horowitz?

  Peak of his powers, yeah.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  So there you are, and I knew, I was old enough to recognize where I was. Then, four years later, Terrence Malat, in Badlands.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  And then, four years later, Apocalypse Now. Six months in the Philippines, watching Francis Coppola direct that film, which was just historic, to be on that set. And then, four years later, I'm on the set of Richard Attenborough's Gandhi, where the call sheet says, you know, 10 million people, I mean, not close. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back in the day, where you couldn't digitally add them. Exactly. So, so as a young, aspiring storyteller, because I wasn't, and I couldn't call myself an actor, I couldn't certainly call myself a filmmaker, but I was taking in all of this data. Yeah. And the data was epic.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  And so I've always looked at whatever I do, even if I have a dime to spend on my movies, which is often the case. I always look at the story as epic. Right. Because I see the world in an epic proportion. And, and, and I can't not see the world that way. And not just how I live my life, but just how I see every story. Yeah. So that is kind of how I, that's informed me as a filmmaker. Right. And so, it is often a burden, because, you know, I want to shoot something, I think we were talking about it yesterday, it's like, I want to shoot in 235, and they'll say, well, it's, it's a movie about four people in a house, like The War at Home.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  And I said, yeah, but I want to shoot in 235, right? I want, I want that sort of, even if it's interior, I want that sort of bendy look as we're coming around, you know, from one room to the next, and it's just, I want that epic look to the film, even though it's an intimate movie. Right. Bobby was the same thing. And yet, the way we shot Super 16. Right. Almost all handheld and Steadicam across 500 miles of Spain, it was, anyway, but still, it, the shots in, in the way are, you know, I'm, again, are not

• 17:02Speaker 02

  They still have that sort of epic look.

• 17:06Josh Horowitz?

  And intentionality about it, yeah. I mean, I have to hit upon a couple of the experiences you've mentioned because like the opportunity to be on the set. You were a teenager when you were on the set of Apocalypse.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  14 years old. So it was me, Gio Coppola, who was also 14.

• 17:19Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  And Laurence Fishburne.

• 17:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Who was also 14, playing 17. We were kids, we were young boys who were just sort of figuring out life, not going to school. We were like, our school was a film set.

• 17:34Josh Horowitz?

  How aware were you of what your dad was going through? I mean, your dad, obviously, it's on film. Like, we know how tough a shoot it was from physically, emotionally, everything.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Well, in the documentary Hearts of Darkness, which I'm sure you've seen. They kind of collapsed time and portrayed his breakdown at sort of towards the end of the schedule. When in fact, it was early in the schedule. He was, my dad was celebrating his birthday. It was August 3rd and we had come, I had gotten there in July of 76. So that was 76 July, or 76 August. He has this meltdown on set because he was celebrating his birthday and he was drinking and Francis had him isolated in his room and I was there. I watched it happen. And I was there when they carted him out.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  And he was ranting and raging and screaming and he, and they were shooting in a courthouse. I don't know if anyone's ever heard this story, but my dad, you know, always on the side of social justice.

• 18:43Josh Horowitz?

  Of course.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  And so we were filming in a building that was used for night court. So it was the upstairs, the apartment where they find him or the hotel room where they find him and carry him out. Well, they actually did that. We carried him out that night. And night court was happening down, so we came down the stairs and again, I had seen my dad drunk before, not on this level and certainly not this publicly. And he demanded to go into the courtroom because he says, if I don't go in there, and he's screaming at my mom, I need to go into that courtroom because if I don't go in there, some poor son of a bitch is gonna go to jail for masturbating in front of a pig! And Francis was like, Martin, Martin, no, come on, Martin. It was hilarious.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  We got him in the car, we started driving, God knows where, just somewhere away from where we could get him calmed down and, and, and he, uh, he, he, he announced to everyone in the car that he had to pee. So we pull over to the side of the road and he got out and ran naked into the jungle and kept going.

• 19:46Josh Horowitz?

  We might never have seen him again.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  No, and my mom chases him down, says, Martin, run, chasing after him. We got him back in the car.

• 19:53Josh Horowitz?

  Oh my God.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  10 minutes later, I have to pee again. My mom says, Martin, you have cried wolf one too many times. You're in a piss, you could piss all over yourself. Anyway, I'm sure they're gonna be horrified that I told that story, but it happened. And it's, it's a sort of, those are the stories that I don't think anyone has ever heard.

• 20:13Josh Horowitz?

  Oh my God. As if, yeah, you think you've heard every story about apocalypse now, there's a new one for you.

• 20:23Josh Horowitz?

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• 21:52Josh Horowitz?

  It's now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you've heard about them, you know what to do. Let them know it was happy, sad, confused. That's the best way to support our show. If I had a dollar for everybody in my life who's benefited from therapy, I would be a very, very rich man. Therapy has certainly helped me, especially when I was a confused teenager. And thankfully, that's not a shameful thing to say anymore, right? It's okay to seek help and need help and talk about it. We're all doing our best. We're just trying to get by, right, guys? Unfortunately, the reality is that getting help is still harder than it should be. That's why I'm thrilled always to have Rula as a sponsor of Happy, Sad, Confused, because it's very obvious to me that online therapy should be both accessible and affordable for everybody.

• 22:36Josh Horowitz?

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• 23:21Josh Horowitz?

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• 23:51Josh Horowitz?

  So in your peer group, when you're starting to like make your way as an actor, you obviously changed your name at a certain point.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Well, I didn't change my name. I just kept my name.

• 23:59Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  My dad changed his name in 1958 when he came to New York. Obviously, he looks very Irish. And he has this name Ramon Estevez. And it sounds kind of Puerto Rican, Marty, maybe, or Ramon, maybe you want to change your name. So he did.

• 24:17Josh Horowitz?

  Got it.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  In 1978, 79, I started going out on auditions. Managers and agents were saying, "Look, kid, you know, you don't look Latino."

• 24:30Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  "It's going to be a lot easier if you just use Sheen." It's like, "That's not who I am." They said, "Trust us." So my first headshots, I've actually posted on my Facebook page, "Nelly O'Sheen."

• 24:44Josh Horowitz?

  No kidding.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  And I looked at it, and I thought, "That's not me." "That's not who I am." And my father said, "Don't make the same mistake I did."

• 24:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  "This is who you are." He says, "It may feel like it's more difficult to go with your birth name, but don't make the same mistake." So I didn't. It was a bit of a hurdle. My agents, my managers did not like it, but I stuck with Estevez. And I was told it would never be a name that you'd see over the title. And I'm like, "Okay, challenge accepted." Challenge accepted.

• 25:24Josh Horowitz?

  You won that battle. So, I mean, I imagine you have an interesting perspective. In recent years, there's been all this talk of like the Nepo baby conversation. I talk to so many young actors who, you know, Jack Quaid and John David Washington, all these amazing talents who bear the burden of this amazing name and the preconceived notions. And you were someone that dealt with all of that, too.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 25:45Josh Horowitz?

  And you're in this amazing peer group, too, we should mention. A lot of them you work with in the outsiders, whether it's Sean Penn or Tom Cruise, et cetera. Did they feel like you had a leg up, like a leg up? Was there any kind of like, were, like, I don't know, did you feel that weight, that expectation, that jealousy or anything?

• 26:01Speaker 02

  The only time I felt like... The pressure was when I'd go into audition, I thought, my god, they're expecting a Martin Sheen type of performance.

• 26:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  As I walk into the room and, you know, I'm a kid, I'm still finding my way, I'm still trying to figure out, you know, who I am and what my skillset is. So, so for me, it was, I never felt anything other than support by my peers, so from my peers. So Sean was a, was a good friend growing up, Tom became a friend through Sean, Rob Lowe was our neighbor.

• 26:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  So we all knew each other, Downey went to Santa Monica High like the rest of us.

• 26:47Josh Horowitz?

  Crazy.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  So it was, it was odd to have all of those young, talented people grow up within close proximity to each other, much less go to the same high school.

• 26:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  It just is, I can't really, it's hard to describe.

• 27:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, something was in the water there.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  Something, but again, it was LA, it was a sort of a melting pot for people coming from all over to try to, you know, make their way in Hollywood. So, not unusual. So yeah, it was interesting times.

• 27:22Josh Horowitz?

  It's been fun to see like you and Tom like dip into each other's work over the years, you know, he has that small moment in Young Guns.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Young Guns, well, he showed up on set.

• 27:29Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  And I said, hey, man, because he just wanted a visit, I mean, back in the day, you would just do that. You'd sort of say, hey, where are you shooting? I'll come, I'm in Atlanta, I'll come, I'm shooting in New Mexico, I'll show up. And it wasn't other than just to support.

• 27:42Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  And that was the great thing when we were all, we all really supported each other, which you don't see a whole lot of today.

• 27:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  But yeah, he showed up, I said, do you want to get shot in this? I said, sure. He said, yeah, put me in a beard and whatever, and I did the same thing, the next day, I was bored, they were shooting, we did the reverse, we were shooting the cavalry and the bounty hunters shooting at us. I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do what Tom did, so I put on a beard and a hat. There's a shot in the movie where I'm shooting at myself.

• 28:11Josh Horowitz?

  Love it.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  As Billy the Kid, or as one of the bounty hunters shooting at Billy the Kid.

• 28:15Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  That we'd shot the day before, so.

• 28:18Josh Horowitz?

  Should we have the Young Guns conversation now because they're, you know, this is, this is being talked about.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  Five years in the making. So this started in 2019. And I approached John Fusco, the original writer of both films. And I said, hey, John, here's what I'm thinking. And this was prior to The Mighty Ducks game changers thing with Disney and all that. I was like, what do you think about this? He said, I think we should investigate. I think we should start. So I just started doing all the research, staying in touch with John. So what about this? What about this? Great, great, great.

• 28:47Josh Horowitz?

  Can I just backtrack for a second? Because I'm just curious. Your relationship to those two films, like, did you always have like a particular fondness for them? Was this like an itch that you always wanted to scratch? Because we've talked about like you're kind of like wrestling with nostalgia and wrestling with returning to things. You know, The Mighty Ducks was something you kind of like had to be dragged to kicking and screaming a little bit.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah. In both directions, in and out.

• 29:09Josh Horowitz?

  Well, good for that if we have time. But why Young Guns? Why did this lure you back that you want to return to this story?

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Well, I'm going to say something that'll probably scare you, but playing Billy the Kid, that character is probably the closest I've ever played to anybody who's like me. And not that I'm sociopathic. However, however, it is, it's probably the most fun I've ever had.

• 29:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Playing a character. He was so beautifully unhinged.

• 29:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  And from what we know, historically speaking, that that is who he was. That he was a prankster, that he was a jokester, that people adored him. But they were also terrified of him because you never knew what direction you were going to get on any given day. And so I just had such an affinity for the character. And over the years, I've become very fond of the desert and the Southwest. And I feel very at home in New Mexico. And again, you raise a really interesting question, and that is, why would you want to go back to something when all you've talked about for the last 20 years is moving forward? In this current climate of nostalgia?

• 30:25Speaker 02

  And if I'm going to get dragged back kicking and screaming, how about I not get dragged?

• 30:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, to the stuff you were kind of in.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Kicking or screaming, something that I really enjoyed. Let's figure out a way to reboot this. Rediscover it, reexamine it, however you want to frame it. And so I thought, we already teased this idea with Brushy Bill Roberts.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  I went to Heiko, Texas, where Brushy Bill is buried. Spent time in this very small town in central Texas. And there is a compelling argument that he was not killed in Fort Sumner in 1881. There's a very compelling argument that Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid were two good pals and Pat let him go. I believe that story. I know there are a lot of historians that cry foul on that. And I'm sure, and that's valid as well.

• 31:21Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  But I think that this take on history, that he lived to be an old man and died in 1950, after going to the governor, Governor Mayberry in Santa Fe, had an audience with the governor and stated his case. And then three weeks later, he was dead. So there wasn't, he didn't get a lot of time to, for forensics, certainly the forensics that we have now.

• 31:49Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  And the investigations to get to where we are now. So since we made the movie, they did a side-by-side comparison with a picture of Brushy Bill and a picture of the kid, the only tinted photo that exists of the kid. And they brought in a New York City forensic, one of those guys that does the deep dive on the feature. So what do you call that?

• 32:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, facial recognition.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Facial recognition, thank you. So this guy said, without knowing what he was looking at.

• 32:29Josh Horowitz?

  Actually went there.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  He said, "That's the same guy." He says, "What percentage?" He says, "99% that's the same guy."

• 32:37Josh Horowitz?

  So can you give, cameras are not up yet, but you do have locations you're trying to scout, I imagine?

• 32:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, we started scouting locations in January. Then we had the LA fires.

• 32:47Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  Raced back for that. Then I just went back a couple of weeks ago, met with the governor, secured the tax credit, scouted a bunch of Indian pueblos, which are going to suit our purposes for a lot of the shooting. And... We just brought on a casting director, wonderful casting director I work with now, and very respected, probably one of the top three casting directors in L.A. named Mary Vernu, Betty Mae, you know her. She's amazing, and her team's awesome. And so, of course, I just got my cast list the night before I arrived here. So, tonight, tomorrow morning, I'm gonna start going through those and start putting together who I think are our candidates.

• 33:27Josh Horowitz?

  So, back at Young Guns 2, sadly, between those first two films, most everyone was killed off.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  That's right. No, that's right.

• 33:35Josh Horowitz?

  But Lou has been talking about it.

• 33:36Speaker 02

  Right. Lou returns, Christian Slater returns. We didn't see either of them die on camera. We certainly didn't see Billy the Kid die on camera. And if you want to continue the narrative of the Brushy Bill story, there are, there's a potential for 3, 4, and 5. Whether I'm in the other, the next installment or not, but I already have an idea for what that is, for what 4 is.

• 34:00Josh Horowitz?

  Has Bon Jovi been contacted?

• 34:03Speaker 02

  I'm not allowed to say. That's all I can say.

• 34:06Josh Horowitz?

  Would you like to have him contribute in some way?

• 34:08Speaker 02

  I'm not allowed to say.

• 34:10Josh Horowitz?

  I think you just said something.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  John has remained a friend, and he's very enthusiastic about being involved with this. Very enthusiastic.

• 34:22Josh Horowitz?

  Now, with all due respect, the title, you're a young man still. You're young at heart. What's it called?

• 34:29Speaker 02

  Young Guns 3, Dead or Alive. So, it begs the question, is he dead? Is he alive? It also tucks into John's song, Wanted Dead or Alive. So, there's that little Easter egg. But it does center on a bunch of new regulators, mostly Latino, indigenous people, and it takes place, most of the film takes place in Mexico. And it falls on the eve of the Mexican Revolution. You have a young Pancho Villa who was 28 at the time. You have his group of soldados, true believers, revolutionaries, who are all kids.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  You had a human trafficking ring going on on the border. He was taking kids from the pueblos and consigning them to his army. They were grabbing kids off the orphan train. And there was a whole cabal of people, the Germans were there.

• 35:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  There's so much history that was going on on the border. And then, of course, during the Mexican Revolution, the Germans were funding Pancho Villa. Because the Americans were just, they were not interested. They looked down their nose at Maggots. So the Germans were, you know, providing gold and arms and they were also spying on America. This was also right, you know, a few years before World War I. So all of this is happening, south of the border. And Billy the Kid meets Pancho Villa. And he is asked to come along and train his young men. So that's basically the story. So I become the Tunstall character.

• 36:08Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  In many ways.

• 36:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  And bring this group of young, mostly Latino, young men through their paces. And then, all hell breaks loose. And so, the setup is great.

• 36:23Josh Horowitz?

  It sounds amazing.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  The setup is a lot of fun.

• 36:25Josh Horowitz?

  I have a long history of talking to actors about these kind of dream legacy projects like Bill and Ted 3. I feel like I was talking to Alex and Keanu for 10 years.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:34Josh Horowitz?

  So I'm hoping we can push this to the finish line because clearly there's a passion there. Clearly there's a will, there's a way. It's gonna happen.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  And it's a big Latino cast.

• 36:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Big indigenous people cast, without feeling like it's, it feels natural.

• 36:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, of course.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  It doesn't feel like it's, oh god, you know, they made the woke version of Young Guns. This is natural.

• 36:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  This is organic to what was happening at the time. And so that's exciting for me.

• 37:01Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it's exciting to see you're excited about it. That's the most important thing to do.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  And there's so many great Hispanic, Latino actors right now. You've got Anthony Ramos, and you've got this kid from Reservation Dogs. I think we were talking about that yesterday. DeFaro Winatai.

• 37:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  And so there's this great pool.

• 37:18Josh Horowitz?

  Untapped talent.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  Untapped guys that are gonna be really exciting to see cast in this movie.

• 37:25Josh Horowitz?

  All right, I'll be visiting you on set. Whether you like it or not.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  It'd be amazing, please. I mean, no, please, it'd be great.

• 37:29Josh Horowitz?

  All right, will you indulge me? I'm gonna throw out a few random movies from the career. I wanna just like hear some like.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  Uh oh.

• 37:35Josh Horowitz?

  What do you think of? There's some infamous ones.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 37:38Josh Horowitz?

  Maximum Overdrive.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  So, okay.

• 37:40Josh Horowitz?

  Stephen King famously has said he was coked out of his mind. He was a madman. Did you know he was having issues?

• 37:46Speaker 02

  The only time that...

• 37:49Speaker 02

  That that became apparent for me and I don't think Steven would be mad. Yeah. If if I if I told this story, but I didn't know how bad it was. Yeah. There was one day we were shooting and I was probably from me to the camera. And he had this enormous tumbler that he'd been that he'd been working his way through the entire shoot and I never paid any attention to it. It's one of those sort of that that, you know, the old plastic tumblers that, you know, our parents probably had, you know, filled with booze and we didn't know. Right. Well, his was too. And being this far away, I actually smelled the booze.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  I thought, oh, no, is that Steven's cup? Is that what's going on here? And then I saw the film and I thought, well, of course. Yeah.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  He was impaired. He was. He's embarrassed by the film. Yeah. He wrote me a letter years later, says, I hope you're not, I hope you forgive me. In truth, and with the advent of, you know, more computer technology and AI and all of that. Yeah. I started to imagine what a sequel to Maximum Overdrive would look like. And during the strike, I wrote one. What? I know, I know, you would think. You were going through something. This is like therapy. This is like. Josh, I also wrote Mighty Ducks 4. What? You can't, because I wanted to make up for all of the disasters that happened on the Game Changers series.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  A feature script? A feature script, yes. That that had Coach Bombay coming back. Yeah. Being pulled back in by by Josh Jackson's character and Kenan Thompson's character.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  And to coach a new team, an expansion team for the professional women's hockey league. So it would be an all-girl team. Now, when we discovered Bombay, he's coaching roller derby. And so he says, "My girls are going with me." He says, "They have a shot." And it was charming and contemporary and cool and, again, organically of the moment.

• 40:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, that's where we're at. What's going on?

• 40:13Speaker 02

  It's where we're at. And Disney was like, "We don't want to pursue that."

• 40:15Josh Horowitz?

  No.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  And the Maximum Overdrive, I don't have the rights to any of this, right? These were just sort of... I started Page One, started an idea, and like, now I'm on Page 10, I'm on Page 20. Now it's 50 pages and I can't stop. Dino DiLorenz owns the rights to Maximum Overdrive. I created an insane world that takes place in a diner. So Bill, if you remember the movie, and if you do, I'm sorry. It's a terrible movie.

• 40:43Josh Horowitz?

  Makes an impression.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  But he was a shorter cook. So now, in the movie, it opens with, he's got his own diner, he's got a young daughter, he's got his crew, his people, and Guy Fieri is coming to do diner's drive-ins and dives on the day the world falls apart.

• 40:58Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  And machines turn on. And it was a cool idea. It's a bitchin' script, man. And DiLorenz was like, "Nope, we have the rights to this. We're not interested. We're gonna pursue our own thing." I was like, "Okay." So there are two huge opportunities, right?

• 41:11Josh Horowitz?

  These feel like no brainers. I mean, Disney not saying...

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you. Can you look at the camera and say that?

• 41:15Josh Horowitz?

  I'm on the record. Green light these. I mean, a Mighty Ducks sequel drawing you and Joshua in, Disney's leaving money on the table. That's just insane.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  I agree. And Keenan, who arguably the funniest man on television right now, it's like, "Guys, what are you doing? And we can make all of these movies for a price." Again, I don't, normally, I don't get a lot of money to make my films.

• 41:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  I make them on a shoestring. So, you know, to start talking about 25, 30 million dollars, but just still a bargain by industry standards.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, no.

• 41:49Josh Horowitz?

  Have you written the Free Jack sequel yet? That's all that's left.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  That one I'm actually gonna leave alone. I'm gonna leave alone.

• 41:57Josh Horowitz?

  What happened? Give me the one-minute version of what the hell happened on Free Jack.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  So Ron Chouset, who had written Total Recall, wrote the script and Morgan Creek greenlit it. And they brought on Jeff Murphy, who I'd worked with in Young Guns 2. And Jeff, God rest him, he's passed now, but he had done Quiet Earth, which was a sensation in New Zealand. So he fancied himself a science fiction aficionado. And they went about to deconstruct the script and took all the action out. They made it more of a character-driven piece, which is, you know, again, in my wheelhouse, I like that. They screened the movie for Morgan Creek and the head of Morgan Creek, Jim Robinson, says, "Where's all the action? Go back and shoot some action."

• 42:45Speaker 02

  She went back to Atlanta, back to New York. Not small. Not at small feet by any stretch of the imagination. We reshoot all this action, we insert it in the movie, and that was that. However, it was cool to be on set with Anthony Hopkins.

• 43:00Josh Horowitz?

  Mick Jagger.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  Mick Jagger was like, you know, it's like, "Hey, man, what are we gonna do?" It's like, "Come on, let's go and look at, go see a band tonight." I was like, "Of course."

• 43:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  Not gonna not say yes to Mick Jagger, go out and see a band. So it was cool for that. Rina Russo was amazing. David Johansson. So we had a great cast. And again, we just, the best intentions, man.

• 43:20Josh Horowitz?

  It's hard to make a great movie, as you well know. It's really hard, even with all the elements.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  It's easy to make a bad one.

• 43:25Josh Horowitz?

  Very easy.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  We see it every day, unfortunately. But, but I think when you get complacent, when you get sloppy, when you, when you think you know it all,

• 43:37Speaker 02

  or you think you, you think you know what the audience wants, is when you get screwed. Because the tastes change. From when you make the movie to when it's released. I think we really, we had something starting out that just went horribly wrong, unfortunately.

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• 45:04Josh Horowitz?

  How dead on a scale of 1 to 10 is your character for Mission Impossible?

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Oh, he's gone. He's gone. No, and that was a great experience.

• 45:13Josh Horowitz?

  That opening 20 minutes is amazing.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  And that's how Tom framed it. He said, "Look, we're going to have all these well-known people. It's going to be you, and we're going to kill all of them." I said, "That's cool."

• 45:22Josh Horowitz?

  And De Palma, you had a De Palma experience. Come on.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Yes, and De Palma, pretty dry guy, pretty humorless guy. And so I showed up on set every day. I said, "How can I make Brian laugh? How can I get that smile on my face? How can I do that?" And Steve Burem, who I'd worked with on St. Elmo's Fire and The Outsiders, the DP, was shooting Mission Impossible. And here I go from these sort of small, more intimate movies to this enormous potential franchise. Nobody knew at the time, but you could De Palma and Burem and they got all these massive sets. And I think there was one day where they got 11 shots. And they were high-fiving. I thought, 11 shots? I get 11 shots before 9:00 a.m. What are you talking about?

• 46:06Josh Horowitz?

  It's a different thing.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  11 shots? Come on, man. So it was a great experience. But for the short time that I was there shooting with Tom and the Mission Impossible crew, I was there a month. Then George Lucas saw the movie. Brian screened it for him and George says, "Where's your spaghetti scene?" I don't know if you've read about this.

• 46:30Josh Horowitz?

  I haven't.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  So he says, "Where's your spaghetti scene?" And Palm says, "What do you mean?" Just, you know, the spaghetti scene where the crew's sitting around, they're eating pasta and they're all talking about what's gonna happen next. We get to know them over spaghetti. It doesn't have to be spaghetti, but that's just sort of a...

• 46:44Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, and that becomes the flashbacks later in the film.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  No, that becomes the opening that was not there.

• 46:48Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, the opening scene, which is great.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  Where we all see each other and it's the red light. Green light, you saw it. So, yeah, so we went back to shoot and I had grown my hair out for an indie film that I was gonna call The War at Home. And they said, "We need you to come back." And I said, "But I'm growing my hair out." And my hair was buzzed and, "We'll put you in a wig." And they did. If you look closely...

• 47:09Josh Horowitz?

  Now I'm gonna go back. I've only seen that movie 20 times. Say, "One more time."

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Right. Which is probably why, no, you probably couldn't tell because of the hair thing, the bandana that I used, you know, for the last of it, my last moment on filming that. But they could've brought me back with the masks, right?

• 47:29Josh Horowitz?

  Of course.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  That could've been the villain in part.

• 47:31Josh Horowitz?

  I'm still holding out hope. The series isn't over yet.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  The final one looks insane.

• 47:36Josh Horowitz?

  Looks insane.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  The trailer's mad.

• 47:38Josh Horowitz?

  What they've done with that, that's as good as you can operate in that realm of filmmaking. They've cracked the code.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Indeed. Indeed. J.J. Abrams, right, he took it to the next level, too, didn't he?

• 47:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:51Josh Horowitz?

  Your directing work, which we've alluded to throughout, look, even during the panel yesterday, it must've been heartening, like, in this amazing Breakfast Club moment. I think a couple of questions from the audience about the public.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Right. Two librarians in the audience just stood up and said, "Thank you for making the film." I'm sorry.

• 48:08Josh Horowitz?

  No, I was just gonna say, like, just like the shelf life of these small, passion projects, I mean, from, Bobby was like calling in every favor friend, you know, selling artwork.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  It became the coolest movie in Hollywood to be a part of. And once, like, Hopkins came on and Macy came on and Sharon Stone was like, "How do I be a part of this?" Elijah Wood, who was just here at the convention.

• 48:31Josh Horowitz?

  But to see the shelf life of these things, The Way has this amazing long tail.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  The re-release has been amazing. We're just now starting to make a little money on it. As the creators of the film, all the money went elsewhere. So we're just now starting to pull some of our own, you know, money in on that, which is great.

• 48:51Josh Horowitz?

  Did working with your dad in that way, I mean you've worked with your dad a number of times, but like, does that change the relationship? Did that experience of working so closely, him in a leading role, directing him?

• 49:01Speaker 02

  Well, my dad, it was his idea to make the film, make it in Spain, but he had a very clear idea of the movie he wanted to make. He wanted it to be devoutly Catholic, like he is. And I said, "Look, man, this movie has to appeal to everyone. I can't make a Catholic movie. I'm not a practicing Catholic, so I can't make that movie. And if that's the movie you want to make, I'm the wrong guy for it." And my dad has a way of saying, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I got you, I got you, kid." But then we're on set, and he says, we got in some fights. He says, "You don't understand because you're not Catholic." I said, "But I'm a filmmaker." And so, it was interesting. We got to a place where we understood each other, and I gave

• 49:46Speaker 02

  him enough of what he wanted, and he gave me the space to create the film that I thought would be more universally accepted.

• 49:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 49:55Speaker 02

  And it was. And we took that film, not only just our pilgrimage across Spain to make the film, but we took a pilgrimage across America to sell the film. We shrink wrapped the bus with the poster. We did 50 days on the road, sleeping in this bus, traveling in this bus, 35 cities, took the movie to the people, did, you know, we'd be in Kansas City, we'd be in the Twin Cities, and we'd do on-camera, in-studio, local news channels, and we did it all. And we did it for free. And I think, at the end of the day, we're

• 50:34Speaker 02

  now, to your point, starting to reap those dividends. However, when I come to something like a Comic-Con or a C2B2, and it's like...

• 50:48Speaker 02

  They want to pay you for being here and it's like it feels um there's just something about it that feels I I'm struggling for the word.

• 50:59Josh Horowitz?

  No, I get this is the central conflict, I think, of your career. We kind of we've been alluded to the whole time.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  I didn't get in this business to be famous.

• 51:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  Or to be rich.

• 51:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  I didn't care about either.

• 51:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  I just didn't care.

• 51:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  And I I would, you know, I'm driving across the country as I did. I drove took four and a half days to get here. I'm driving through this farmland. I'm thinking, you know, I could be a farmer. I could be a farmer. There's, you know, of course, the weather and okay, well, what are the the the comps? It's like to Hollywood versus being a farmer. It's like, okay, you're dependent on the weather. You're dependent on the studio.

• 51:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  You're dependent on your crops, uh, you know, uh, being healthy and, you know, raising them to where you can get them to market. Well, it's the same thing with the movie.

• 51:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Right? Script and but by the same token, there's something really kind of, and maybe I'm just romanticizing it, but because I'm sure every farmer would tell you it's a hard life. And it is, and I know that. I grow enough of my own food to know that. But um I I don't know. I sort of got I'm all over the place here, but I think that I didn't I didn't do it for money. I didn't do it for the fame. I didn't do it for recognition.

• 52:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  And I think that's why it was so uncomfortable to come to these things and be recognized. In my opinion, there's no movie, there's no crops, you know, there's no bushel of corn.

• 52:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  To sort of put to market. There's no film to screen and we can have a Q and A about it after the fact and talk about what we just saw. This is just, um, this is commerce. And the commerce part of it, the business part of show business is something that I've never been comfortable with.

• 52:42Josh Horowitz?

  But it's interesting. I mean, look, as we wrap up, like thinking about the the macro of your career, I mean, talking about your dad and this like infamously this man who has made his life as much about social justice as the art.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  Without question.

• 52:54Josh Horowitz?

  And you have you've truly carried on that legacy. If you look at the films that you're directing, it must like, I'm sure he I'm sure he loves his entire family, his all his children, but to see like you specifically carry on that kind of legacy through your film work and what you've prioritized in your life, that's meaningful.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it is. It is. And I think that, you know, the old joke is, well, they'll bury you with all of your movies.

• 53:18Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  And so, congratulations for that. But I think that a lot of people say, and whether it's true for them or not, I can't answer. But people say, you know, your family's most important. Your family is what we do. You do this for your kids. But think about every obituary you've ever read. Where does the family come? Last, at the very end. It's like, he is survived by. That's it.

• 53:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  It's your body of work. It's your accomplishments first.

• 53:50Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 53:51Speaker 02

  And then your family. So, do we really believe that?

• 53:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  Or have we left it to the writers of the obituaries to determine that, what our legacy ultimately is? And so, I believe that the work that I leave behind is the most important thing I do.

• 54:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  When I work on a house, if I build a house, I'm not building it with materials that I don't think are going to outlast me. Sometimes they're more expensive. Sometimes they take more time to work with, but I'm thinking, this place will still be here 50 years from now. The building that I rehabbed in Cincinnati is already 150 years old. What we've done to it, to rehab it, I think has, will preserve it for another 150 years.

• 54:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 54:40Speaker 02

  So, I'm thinking along those lines, that these are the sort of films, whether it's The Breakfast Club, or The Public, or The Way, that continue to inspire long after I'm gone. And that's at the top of the obit. Along, probably with Brad Packer, unfortunately.

• 54:57Josh Horowitz?

  It's, yeah.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  You know, it's inevitable.

• 54:59Josh Horowitz?

  Just leave the free jack out of the obit. We don't need that.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you. Will you write my obit?

• 55:03Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  All right.

• 55:04Josh Horowitz?

  I got you. We're going to end with this, the Happy Say Confused for Family Random Questions, a little bit more random stuff for you. Are you a dog or a cat guy?

• 55:11Speaker 02

  Dog.

• 55:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Currently don't have one.

• 55:13Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  Currently on the hunt.

• 55:14Josh Horowitz?

  I'm trying to will that into existence for you.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Yes. And it may be a pit bull. After all is said and done, it may be.

• 55:21Josh Horowitz?

  The sweetest dogs.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  Or a pit bull mix.

• 55:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, that's ours. That's ours.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Jackie was wondering if you were going to bring yours today.

• 55:26Josh Horowitz?

  I would have, if I could have. I'll bring her to set.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Okay, good.

• 55:30Josh Horowitz?

  What do you collect, if anything?

• 55:33Speaker 02

  Dust. Unfortunately. I used to collect art. But then I have a feeling about, mixed feelings about collecting art. I don't think art should be personally owned and not shared with the public. Almost like a film. It's like, okay, you're gonna make this movie and then you're gonna keep it in your house and no one's ever gonna see it. But I do like having pieces on the wall that are stories that are reflected in a single frame. Because 24 frames per second, 10,000 feet of film to tell, that's what I need to tell a story.

• 56:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  That an artist, a painter, a fine artist can do it in one frame on a piece of canvas, which is how we project most films. How we used to, anyway. Is extraordinary to me. So I have an appreciation for art.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  And I used to collect it.

• 56:20Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Did you ever, were you ever a video game guy back in the arcade day?

• 56:24Speaker 02

  No.

• 56:24Josh Horowitz?

  No favorite video game?

• 56:25Speaker 02

  No favorite video game.

• 56:26Josh Horowitz?

  We'll pass on that one. What's the wallpaper on your phone? The background on your phone screen?

• 56:32Speaker 02

  It's a picture of my girlfriend. And a ham on leg.

• 56:38Josh Horowitz?

  Fair enough. Last actor you were mistaken for?

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Michael J. Fox. And, and, and Michael Douglas. And who else was I mistaken for?

• 56:48Josh Horowitz?

  All over the place, yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  Charlie Sheen.

• 56:52Josh Horowitz?

  There was some genetic linkage there. We can excuse that one.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 56:55Josh Horowitz?

  What's the worst noted director has ever given you?

• 56:59Speaker 02

  Have a good fucking time.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  Screaming at the top of his lungs. Oh, here's looking at you, Joel Schumacher.

• 57:06Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, no. Say Almo. Say Almo's fine.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  So to go from John Hughes, who was collaborative, who was a mentor in many ways, who was calm, listened, to Joel, who was wildly insecure.

• 57:24Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, no.

• 57:25Speaker 02

  And was a nightmare on set.

• 57:27Josh Horowitz?

  No kidding.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  And was, was a bully. And to have that happen in the same year was, and I vowed never to speak to my actors that way if I ever got a chance to direct. In 1984, I thought, this is the best lesson a young actor who wants to direct could ever get. Thank you, Joel.

• 57:50Josh Horowitz?

  What a shame. It's funny because like I've heard those stories also relation to like the Batman film he directed with Val and you hear about Val and now this colors my thinking of there might have been two to Tango to make that.

• 58:01Speaker 02

  There may have been. Joel may have met his match with Val. I don't know.

• 58:05Josh Horowitz?

  In the spirit of Happy, say Confused, who's an actor that always makes you happy. You see them on screen, you're immediately happier.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  Gosh. What do I love?

• 58:20Speaker 02

  I like Jon Hamm. I love Jon. I'll watch Jon and I love watching him host Saturday Night Live, which you just did again. He's so, he's just painfully handsome and yet he's also wonderfully self-effacing and hilarious and doesn't pull any stops when it comes to poking fun at himself.

• 58:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, doesn't take himself too seriously. On 30 Rock, he was epic.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  I adore him. Hilarious.

• 58:46Josh Horowitz?

  A movie that makes you sad?

• 58:50Speaker 02

  God.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Sad.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 59:01Speaker 02

  I mean, I cry over commercials sometimes. I will watch commercials and just start weeping. Why am I crying over this commercial? It wasn't during COVID.

• 59:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 59:09Speaker 02

  But.

• 59:12Josh Horowitz?

  You go, yeah, I mean, from a classic against a wonderful life to like Terms of Endearment to a Pixar movie to a cinema Paradiso comes up. I don't know.

• 59:22Speaker 02

  What have I cried at recently? Can you remember something we've watched and I start weeping it? Yeah, a movie.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  Oh, shit. Yeah, I can't watch The Way and not cry. It's like, who made this movie?

• 59:36Josh Horowitz?

  Why are you doing this to me?

• 59:37Speaker 02

  Why?

• 59:40Speaker 02

  It's so weird.

• 59:41Josh Horowitz?

  That's bizarre.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  And it happened at every single screening. We've seen these screens, you know, again, well, like I said, we took that movie out on the road and there's the first, even the first couple of cuts, I screened it for a bunch of Pepperdine students and I'm sitting in the back. These are college students and they're like enjoying it and opening credits. I'm just like.

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  Weeping.

• 1:00:03Josh Horowitz?

  Love it.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I hope that doesn't sound too self-serving.

• 1:00:06Josh Horowitz?

  No, no, no. And finally, most importantly, a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. Why do people eat that?

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 1:00:16Speaker 02

  There are some foods.

• 1:00:19Speaker 02

  There are some.

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  I guess we can call them restaurants. In Koreatown, in. In Los Angeles. There was one where there was.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  Cotton candy. With frozen yogurt. And Lucky Charms in it. This exists. And I thought. Why? What drug was taken to get to that place? Where you said, this is a good idea?

• 1:00:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. It feels like Stephen King on Maximum Overdrive came up with that one. What if we had this?

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. That is so funny.

• 1:00:55Josh Horowitz?

  Man, I so appreciate the trust you put in me for both that amazing panel yesterday, which was a true moment in time to be a small part of. It was amazing. And to have this kind of conversation is really meaningful. You've meant a lot to my film, Love, over the years. And if we can help 1% make some of these passion projects happen, I'll be a happy guy.

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  Thank you, man.

• 1:01:16Josh Horowitz?

  We got Greenlight, Young Guns. We're gonna make it happen.

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  Guns 3 is gonna happen.

• 1:01:20Josh Horowitz?

  That will definitely happen. But let's not leave out. The Mighty Ducks, or even Maximum Overdrive. I'm here for all of it.

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  And as silly as Maximum Overdrive is, and was. Maximum 2 is not. It's cool. It's so cool.

• 1:01:36Josh Horowitz?

  Would you want to direct that one?

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah?

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, because why not?

• 1:01:40Josh Horowitz?

  Why not?

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  Why not just keep on more? More?

• 1:01:44Josh Horowitz?

  It feels like you're in a really cool place, where you have found a way to reckon with the past, and the things that maybe scarred you in some ways as a young actor, and didn't feel fulfilling creatively. It's really good to see you now.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  I'm embracing it, rather than saying, hey, man, that's not me anymore.

• 1:01:58Josh Horowitz?

  Turn it into a good.

• 1:01:59Speaker 02

  I kind of have to embrace what's happening in our business. And you can push back all you like, but at the end of the day, the wave is gonna take you under. And so I've got to figure out how to surf it.

• 1:02:11Josh Horowitz?

  You're riding the wave, exactly. You're making it your own. Well, thank you again for the time today. A real pleasure.

• 1:02:15Speaker 02

  Thank you, man.

• 1:02:16Josh Horowitz?

  Thanks.

• 1:02:18Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 1:02:37Speaker 00

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