Emergency Podcast: Sam Altman Fired At OpenAI

OpenAI fired CEO Sam Altman today, a stunning move that will reshape the AI wars and open new avenues for its competitors. Sharon Goldman, Senior AI writer at Venturebeat, joins us for an emergency podcast to discuss the news, and what comes next. --- You can subscribe to Big Technology Premium for 25% off at https://bit.ly/bigtechnology Enjoying Big Technology Podcast? Please rate us five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ in your podcast app of choice. For weekly updates on the show, sign up for the pod newsletter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/6901970121829801984/ Questions? Feedback? Write to: [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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• 0:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  Sam Altman is out at OpenAI. It felt like a hallucination and it still does, but he confirmed the news. He's gone. We're gonna record an emergency podcast to break down the news and explain what it means. And we're gonna do it right after this. This episode is brought to you by Genesis. What does it actually take to put a Gentic AI to work across an entire enterprise? I recently spoke with Genesis Chairman and CEO Tony Bates about why orchestration is emerging as a competitive advantage in customer experience and what companies need to get right in the AI era. Then I sat down with Adam Mitchell, Head of Enterprise Business Solutions at Voya Financial, to go inside a large-scale agentic CX transformation, including the business decisions,

• 0:46Alex Kantrowitz?

  trade-offs and lessons along the way. You can watch both conversations now on my YouTube channel today. It's never been more challenging to get Frontier Compute. How do you know where to look, who to trust, or how much to pay? Akash is an open cloud that provides easy access, flexibility and peace of mind. That's how companies like Razer were able to cut their inference cost by 15 times. Visit akash.network/alex for a free consultation. That's akash.network/alex for a free consultation. Welcome to Big Technology Podcast Emergency Edition. Sam Altman has been fired by OpenAI Edition. Holy moly.

• 1:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  There's no way, no way we're waiting until Wednesday to cover the news on the podcast. So instead, we're dropping an emergency episode here where we're gonna talk about what happened, what it means, where OpenAI goes from here, and who did it? Because the board has been involved in literally the most shocking firing in tech, I would have to say, in a decade or longer. And we don't know exactly why we did it, but we can talk a little bit about who did it, and that might give us some clues. We're joined today by the senior AI writer, adventure beat Sharon Goldman. Sharon, welcome to the show.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Alex, nice to see you.

• 2:11Alex Kantrowitz?

  Great to see you.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Friday afternoon.

• 2:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  I know.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  What a mic drop, literally.

• 2:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  Absolutely butting into evening, but we couldn't let it go any longer. You have been covering OpenAI very closely. You just wrote about their board, which we're going to get into. But first, can you just like, tell us a little bit about the news? So Sam Altman is out as OpenAI CEO. The COO is stepping in, Mira is stepping in as the new interim CEO. They are looking for a new permanent CEO, Greg Brockman, the, who is the chairman of the board.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  He was the chairman of the board, president of OpenAI, stepped down as chairman.

• 2:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  From the board, was going to remain at OpenAI. Try to contextualize this for us. This is a massive shuffling, but how big is it?

• 3:05Speaker 01

  It's huge. Dev Day, OpenAI's Dev Day was just last week. Just earlier this week, there was news that OpenAI was looking for a big infusion of money from Microsoft. Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella was on stage with Sam Altman last week at Dev Day, touting, you know, their partnership to build AGI together. Just yesterday, I understand, Sam Altman was on stage for the AIPAC conference. So it sounded like it came as a surprise to everybody, not just us, right?

• 3:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  Absolutely. We don't know what happened yet. We'll probably break at some point this weekend. But we can, we can speculate a little bit without being irresponsible. The business seemed like it was in good shape. You know, maybe there was like, something that was going on, but this was clearly a conduct related issue. Now, let me see if I can pull the exact language from the board. But basically, they said that Sam had been inconsistent with his communication and they could no longer rely on, or trust him to do the job effectively. Some mealy mouth PR language. What's your read on what actually happened?

• 4:24Speaker 01

  I feel like that it is mealy mouth, but it's also not, you know, we wish Sam well. And as he goes home to be with his family either. So, you know, it definitely it dropped in the afternoon. There was some, there is some verbiage that indicates some kind of misconduct, whether that's financial or otherwise. I don't think anyone knows. I read that there's some kind of all hands meeting going on right now at OpenAI. Maybe that will offer some clues, but it sounds like everyone, no one really has a sure handle on what happened, whether it was financial. I'm wondering if it has something

• 5:03Speaker 01

  to do with Microsoft in some way. Then our editorial director at VentureBeat, Michael Nunez, was at Dev Day. He said there was a little bit of weirdness at the press briefing and during Dev Day, where it seemed like something was a little off. But so I don't know if it goes as far back as that or not.

• 5:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  We do have some details coming out of that all hands meeting. So first of all, Mira Maroti, who is the OpenAI interim CEO, was the COO. By the way, well, we'll talk about her in a moment. Very capable leader. Told, according to the information, told staff that its relationship with Microsoft was stable and that Satya Yendela and Kevin Scott, the CTO of Microsoft, had expressed the utmost confidence in OpenAI following the news. So clearly they've been communicating that way. And Ilya Sutskever, who's the chief AI researcher, told the staff, the experience will make us feel closer as they pick up the pieces from Altman's departure. So that's what they're saying inside the company. Where does the, you know, we, so as we try to

• 6:08Alex Kantrowitz?

  figure out what happened, where does the loss of Sam Altman leave this company? I mean, it seems like they really were in the hits business as all this technology was starting to be commoditized. And while he wasn't playing like the chief product manager role, like he plays a big role in terms of what they develop, what they develop and how they decide to bet on those hits, right?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, in some ways, you could say, you know, why care so much about Sam Altman? He wasn't, you know, the brains, the scientists behind the AI, behind the large language model. But he was the face of OpenAI. I mean, for the past year, he's been arguably the most forward-facing person in AI. He's built the company. He's been out there on a world tour touting GPT-4 and beyond, and he's been there every step of the way. So it's hard to imagine that this doesn't kind of rock the boat pretty significantly. You know, so yeah, I'm interested to see what happens.

• 7:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  But more than a cheerleader, right? He's actually like, he's like, he's the, he came to this company as this, you know, formerly the CEO of Y Combinator. They built ChatGPT and DALL-E on the transformer model, which was developed inside Google. What has made OpenAI what it is, is a keen sense of how to take existing technology and turn it into products. And who better to do that than someone that's run a startup incubator? You effectively need to be doing that to remain competitive. So are they going to be able to remain competitive in this fast, in this fast-moving field without him?

• 7:43Speaker 01

  I think so. I mean, I don't feel like OpenAI was just Sam Altman. I mean, I think that, you know, Greg Brockman, I think Ilya Sutskever, I think Mira. I think there's a lot of people in place. I'm sure that there, that sense of mission and the product itself. I mean, if GPT-5 is already in the works, then, you know, I can't imagine that things would just completely go haywire. But I do think this rocks the boat and leaves an open space for competitors. We're talking Anthropic, we're talking Microsoft, we're talking Google and Amazon.

• 8:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  That, to me, seems like the biggest implication, right? Is that you're in a very fierce fight. You need the full team. You need the A-team on the field. And part of the football analogy, but like you lose your quarterback, you're in trouble.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  I guess it depends who they choose as their next quarterback.

• 8:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  So let's talk about the backup quarterback, not to kill this analogy any worse than we have. Mira Maroti, the COO, very impressive background with Tesla, working on AI. She's shepherded a lot of the ChatGPT and DALL-E work. What more can you tell us about her?

• 8:55Speaker 01

  You know, she's also been out there as a strong face for OpenAI. And, you know, I can't imagine that she wouldn't be. I think I was just looking on Twitter and there was already some kind of like gaming out there of who was leading in the race for the role and Mira Maroti was leading the pack. But, um, you know, so I think she's

• 9:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  As the permanent CEO.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  What?

• 9:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  As permanent, that she might end up.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  As the permanent.

• 9:20Alex Kantrowitz?

  That would make sense to me. Yeah. There was a Fortune profile of her that said that she led the Dolly development, the ChatGPT development. She was crucial in the partnership with Microsoft. She has all these beliefs about trying to achieve artificial general intelligence. So she might slot right in.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  I definitely feel like whoever is the next CEO would have to be someone who is as firmly devoted to that mission as Mira, as Sam, because everything I've read, everything I've, you know, heard about the company, what's right on their homepage and website, what their board is all about that we've been talking about is that mission, that they're constantly mission critical, you know, AGI or bust.

• 10:05Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay. And there's even more news that's been breaking. This is coming from Axios. Microsoft was blindsided by OpenAI's ouster of CEO Sam Altman. Ina Fried says its biggest partner, one that has invested billions in the company, learned a minute before the rest of the world that Altman was out. So obviously.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  That's incredible. That's incredible.

• 10:26Alex Kantrowitz?

  You know, we've talked a lot about mission and about Sam not taking equity. And I think this is an important moment to just pause and talk about a theme we've discussed on this podcast a bunch, which is that like when someone tells you that they're interested in like the bettering, the greater good of the world, ask some questions. I mean, it's interesting that Altman, who had this whole like, we're going to retrieve AGI, we're going to repair the world, we're going to do universal basic income. Et cetera, et cetera. Did something, I mean, clearly he did something, either it was this weird power struggle that we're gonna find out about, or it seems, anyway, I won't put a probability on it, but, or he did something so bad that the board decided to fire him and not tell Microsoft, you know?

• 11:11Speaker 01

  And the fact, I mean, that's just mind boggling. Microsoft, it's not even just that Microsoft is OpenAI's biggest investor. It was just reported that OpenAI was looking for more money, a big infusion of more money, all pointing to that mission of building AGI together. And then there's this complex relationship between Microsoft and OpenAI, the nonprofit side, the for-profit company, that the two sides of OpenAI and the complex negotiations that must have been put in place to make that happen. So the idea that Microsoft wouldn't be in the loop here is incredible.

• 11:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  Astonishing. Now, OpenAI is kind of a weird company, right? It's got this like cap profit and a status and a nonprofit origin.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  It was always a little bit of a strange setup. And it's like, you know, then they built these like extremely viable commercial products, but their goal was to reach artificial general intelligence. I mean, I'm sure there's some coherent thread through it all, but it just feels like, like, I don't know, it's, I don't know, a science project meant to go wrong, which it clearly has.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  I feel like the, you know, that the idea behind it was to set up, from their standpoint, was to set up a way to be able to fund their mission while, you know, while still offering a commercial opportunity so that it could be a win-win. But I, and in that way, kind of creating an entirely new governance, way of governing a company, that like, this is very unusual, the setup that they have with Microsoft. It's really something very brand new. And this piece that I wrote that I mentioned, the lawyers I spoke to said that. They said it's very unusual kind of setup. They had not seen anything like that before.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  But you know, Anthropic also has like an unusual setup as well in their goals towards AGI. So this, I thought that this was starting to be some kind of like a new trend. But perhaps in this case, it's, you know, who knows what's going to happen.

• 13:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  You know, as you were talking to me, I was like, this sounds like very like FTX-ish. Not, not the Ponzi scheme, but this whole like, we're going to set up a corporate structure to achieve our mission, which was kind of like the same thing as Sam Bankman-Fried. And then reading your piece, it turns out there is a link. I mean, it's not the Ponzi scheme link, but there are board members who are close to this effective altruism movement. That was, and I'm not saying this has anything to do with Sam's departure or anything like that. We just don't know. But it is interesting that the EA movement, right? This effective altruism, we're going to try to like maximize our expected value and do whatever we can, you know, to make more money so that we can end up, you know, saving more lives in the future. It's represented on the OpenAI board.

• 14:08Alex Kantrowitz?

  What can you tell us about that?

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Well, that's what actually drew me to write that story in the beginning is I had read a thread from Logan Kilpatrick, who's at OpenAI. When some news was coming out about Microsoft possibly infusing more money into OpenAI. And, um, uh, you know, I, I took, Kilpatrick sort of put a thread of right from the OpenAI website, their structure page, which talks about how the company is set up. And one of those areas said that discussed the nonprofit board alongside the for-profit entity.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  And one of the points on that structure page explains that a six-member nonprofit board of directors is the half dozen group that will decide when OpenAI has quote unquote attained AGI. When I looked into the members of that board, there are three employee members. Sam Altman, now gone, Greg Brockman, president now.

• 15:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  Off the board.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Off the board. And Ilya, who is the chief scientist, and there are three other non-employee board members who seem very unrelated, but they all have some have had some tie. If you Google their names, if you look them up online, there are ties to the effective altruism movement. When I reached out to OpenAI, they got back to me with statements saying that none of the board members are effective altruists, but that and that the three non-employee board members do not align with effective altruism in that way. But it was kind of like shaded a little bit like, yes, one is on a board, but it's only because they're

• 16:02Speaker 01

  not so closely tied to the community. So there was a little hedging there. But there's no doubt that they do have some ties. And even OpenAI itself has long had some ties. You know, again, not saying that they are part of the movement, but they definitely have had some ties that I talk about in the article.

• 16:22Alex Kantrowitz?

  Really rough moment for effective altruism. Maybe we can stop taking this stuff at face value. Okay, this is coming from Hacker News. So just a comment, it's total speculation, but you know, might not talk about it. So someone says, put the pieces together. November 6, OpenAI Dev Day with feature with new features of the Build Your Own ChatGPT and more. November 9, Microsoft cuts employees off from ChatGPT due to security concerns. November 15, OpenAI announces no new ChatGPT plus signups. November 17, OpenAI fires Sam Altman. Put the threads together. One theory, the new release has a serious security issue. This is just speculation.

• 17:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  Leaked a bunch of data and it wasn't disclosed disclosed, but Microsoft knew about it. This wouldn't be the first time. In March, there was an incident where users were seeing the private chats of other users. Further extending the theory, prioritizing getting to market overrode security privacy testing, and this most recent release caused something much, much larger. Sounds feasible to you?

• 17:30Speaker 01

  It doesn't align with what we just said about Microsoft just finding out.

• 17:34Alex Kantrowitz?

  Not knowing. Yeah, exactly. Okay, take that Microsoft not knowing out of the this is of course speculation. Take them out.

• 17:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  Potentially something feasible, it sounds like.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Well, it would explain why Greg Brockman would have resigned from the board. That connection, because I feel like that's still an open question.

• 17:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  But there's also this like, you know, this, there's such a tolerance for bad data leaks in Silicon Valley. Like, it had to be more than that, it seems like.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  I agree. I feel like it has definitely to be more than that.

• 18:05Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  That can't be. And again, you know, when we, when we think about how this happened so quickly, that this is the afternoon on a Friday, towards the end of the stock market opening, I feel like it's more than that.

• 18:20Alex Kantrowitz?

  The stock market, so I put this on Twitter, that the Microsoft stock slipped about 1.5% immediately after the news dropped. Now, people told me, you know, not a large amount, it's just 1.5%. Company's going to be fine. Still 2.73 trillion dollar market cap. But that, you know, that decline accounts for just, you know, a cool few dozen billion dollars.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  Is that, so how do, how should we read that? Is it a problem for Microsoft that he's gone?

• 18:47Speaker 01

  I do think it's a problem for Microsoft if he's gone for, you know, again, it raises questions. You know, again, Satya Nadella was with Sam Altman onstage at Dev Day, touting their relationship, that they'd be building AGI together. The fact that if it becomes quite public that they didn't know until a minute before, that doesn't look good for Microsoft, does it? I feel like, you know, catching Microsoft flat footed would seem very odd. So I definitely think in a variety of ways, it doesn't bode well for Microsoft just in this moment. Of course, I don't think it necessarily means anything huge in the long game, but who knows?

• 19:32Speaker 01

  I mean, I definitely just think this is a big mic drop and, and there'll be a lot of fallout over the weekend, right?

• 19:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, exactly. And it's not the mic drop you do after you have a proud moment. It's the mic drop where the mic slips out of your hands and you embarrassingly have to go pick it up. Sam Altman tweets, "I loved my time at OpenAI. It was transformative for me personally, and hopefully the world a little bit. Most of all, I loved working with such talented people. We'll have more to say about what's next later." I mean, people are like, well, who cares about what's next? What about what happened? But it will come out. There's no doubt that it will come out.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  And I thought that that tweet kind of was a little funny, like if it was something absolutely horrifying, I seems like he wouldn't put out that tweet, but I don't know.

• 20:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. So, okay, final question for you. Who wins and who loses from this?

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Well, I definitely think that OpenAI loses, at least in the short term. I think there's gonna, I don't think they, that we've seen this kind of upheaval from them. I feel like they've been such steady rocks all year long,

• 20:40Speaker 01

  especially in this incredible wave. Like, I feel like for us, what's still a small company, I think people forget, you know, that it's still a small company. I think it still only has a few hundred employees.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  You know, they've obviously been shouldering quite a lot and, you know, both in terms of developing and building, but also criticism, lawsuits, you know, all sorts of things. You know, and you've never seen any kind of crack in that this year, I don't think. I feel like everyone's been very tight, together, kind of steady pace. That's been my observation. So I think that that, to me, that's partly why this comes as such a shock, because it feels so off, off, off for, for OpenAI. I think Microsoft, it remains to be seen. I wonder if they could be seen as a winner in some ways, depending on what the deal is that they have with OpenAI.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  It possibly could be an opening for competitors, as you say, but, um, you know, I, I, I do think that when we learn more about what really happened, the winners and losers will become more clear.

• 21:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yep. We should definitely do some of the jokes. One was, one was mine where I was like, man, if we find out there are people typing behind ChatGPT this entire time, it's gonna be crazy. That was a thing that he was concealing.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  There were a lot of people doing the joke that, um, you know, the first person to lose their job because of ChatGPT was Sam Altman.

• 22:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right, that ChatGPT can replace CEOs. And then, uh, finally, like, oh, how ironic is it that, you know, someone was inconsistent in their communication?

• 22:26Alex Kantrowitz?

  Got fired. I mean, this might look terrible when we find out the cause and it turns out to be something totally awful. But in the meantime.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  In the meantime, we can have a little, little laugh.

• 22:37Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. Sharon Goldman, thanks so much for joining. This has been an emergency edition of Big Technology Podcast. More to come as we learn more, but we wanted to get something on the feed. Can't thank you enough. By the way, tell people where to find your writing.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Yes, you can find my writing at venturebeat.com. I'm Sharon Goldman. I cover AI.

• 22:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  And you have, you have a newsletter or you have a Twitter?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  I also have a Substack. I have a Twitter at Sharon.Goldman. You can check me out there. Sharon Gold on Twitter.

• 23:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  Terrific. Thank you, Sharon. Thank you, everybody for listening. Emergency. We did it quickly. We'll be back on the, on the feed for sure, but wanted to get you at least the very basic story, the implications. And if you're waking up to this news, well, holy moly. I mean, it's going to take a long time for it to settle in. That'll do it for us here. We'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.

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