Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz ICYMI... HIBT Lab! The Sorry Girls: Kelsey MacDermaid and Becky Wright About this episode YouTubers Kelsey MacDermaid and Becky Wright – better known as The Sorry Girls – have always had an affinity for production. When they met as film students back in 2010, little did they know that the DIY videos they were creating for fun would eventually lead to full-fledged careers co-founding and leading their own media company. But building to where they are now, with over 2 million subscribers and counting, didn’t exactly come with a blueprint…
This week on How I Built This Lab, Kelsey and Becky talk to Guy about pursuing the uncharted territory of a YouTube career, their philosophies on navigating brand deals, and their take on growing a business in the creator economy without compromising on values.
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Guy Raz? Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2 a.m. kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people? So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan,
0:46 Guy Raz? build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea, what separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt. We get support from U.S. Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't.
1:32 Guy Raz? Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems. But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands on the table in rewards you never earned, money that could have gone back into the business. Path B, you pause and get The US Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card.
2:14 Guy Raz? Now you're earning 3% cash back on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association pursuant to a license from Visa USA Inc. Some restrictions apply. If you travel often, you'll want to hear about this unprecedented offer.
2:58 Guy Raz? For the first time ever, new Delta SkyMiles Reserve American Express Card members can earn two Delta Comfort round trip flights for travel within the 48 contiguous US states, Puerto Rico, or the US Virgin Islands. Plus, you can earn 50,000 bonus miles towards your next getaway. And who doesn't appreciate an elevated airport experience? Delta SkyMiles Reserve Card members get access to the Delta Sky Club, your pre-flight oasis to recharge with 15 visits and four one-time guest passes each medallion year when flying Delta together. That's up to $950 in annual value.
3:40 Guy Raz? Value estimate based on $50 per visit rate to purchase additional visits or bring a guest to the Delta Sky Club. Make every trip feel more rewarding with the card that upgrades your travel. Apply today at delta.com/cardsocial. Offer ends November 4, 2026. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply. Flights are fulfilled as flight certificates valid for Delta Comfort or Delta Maine to select domestic destinations. Book 21-plus days in advance. Up to $80 per person and taxes and fees apply. Other restrictions apply. When I pull up to a gas pump to fill my car, I'm not thinking about chemistry or engineering. I'm thinking about getting in, filling up, and getting on with my day.
4:23 Guy Raz? And it reminds me a little bit of the founders I talk to on this show, because the best ones obsess over things their customers will never see. Tiny details, invisible improvements, relentless iteration. And not because anyone's watching, but because it makes the product better. That's what the mobile brand does. It engineers fuel the same way great founders engineer their products. Mobile Supreme Plus Premium Gas helps keep engines three times cleaner, which can mean better performance and improved gas mileage. It's for people who care about what's under the hood, even if they never see it. Three times cleaner compared to mobile regular gas in port-fuel-injected engines. Actual results may vary.
5:07 Guy Raz? Visit mobili fuels.com for details. Hello and happy holidays to all of you. This week, our producers, as I hope you can appreciate, are taking a quick break. We produce 88 episodes of this show a year for you, so I hope you can understand they very much deserve some time with their friends and family to do things that they can't do because they're producing How I Built This, like gardening, or reorganizing, or woodworking, or, you know, drywall or something, which is a great segue into the episode we're about to play for you because this week's guests, YouTubers Kelsey McDermott and Becky Wright, are better known as the Sorry Girls, or if you're Canadian, the Sorry Girls. And they talked to us at the beginning of this year
5:51 Guy Raz? about the videos that they started to put out that would unknowingly launch them into fully-fledged YouTubers, content creators. And they were generous enough to share their insights on what it took to grow and sustain an audience, which for them included taking the risk of quitting their day jobs. And now they're running their own production company and learning to say no to the wrong deals. Hope you enjoy.
6:16 Guy Raz? Hello and welcome to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. So just the other day, I was trying to figure out how to get a coffee mug stain off of my coffee table. I thought, and I thought, and I thought, and then I thought, wait, there's probably a YouTube video on that. And guess what? Indeed, there is. So basically, you put a damp towel on the coffee table, you gently run a warm iron over it, and voila! The ring usually disappears. But please, I am not an expert, so don't blame me if it doesn't work for you. The point is, there are a lot of people out there who know how to do a lot of things, things they happily put on YouTube.
6:58 Guy Raz? And if you can find an audience, those skills can help you build a business, which is exactly what the Sorry Girls have done. Calcium MacDermaid and Becky Wright are the Sorry Girls. They'll explain the name in a moment. It's a YouTube channel dedicated to do-it-yourself projects and home makeovers. The channel now has over 2 million subscribers, and their small media company now employs about 10 people full-time. At the time, they were both film students in Toronto, Canada, and their first video was really just a one-off. It was never intended to turn into a business. They simply wanted to make a video showing people how to create a Halloween costume.
7:42 Speaker 01 It was a pink and a blue highlighter, as in the stationary item. I think we were inspired by literally what was on the desk at the time.
7:53 Guy Raz? Wait, say that again. You made costumes of a highlighter?
7:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, like, imagine neon blue tights, a little blue tube dress that we sewed. We cut out letters that said "highlighter" down the side and folded paper into the shape of the little cap.
8:09 Guy Raz? Oh, wow. So both of you were highlighters?
8:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, but one's pink and one's blue, and those were also our names for the rest of the first year of college, too.
8:16 Guy Raz? Pink and blue?
8:17 Speaker 01 Pink and blue highlighter. People didn't know our names yet.
8:21 Guy Raz? So put this out on YouTube, this 2010, and who sees this video?
8:26 Speaker 02 I don't even know how we knew SEO at the time, but I believe we called it something basic, like easy, last minute Halloween costume idea. And because there wasn't a lot of that on YouTube at the time, I believe it got a lot of clicks. Now, a lot back then is not a lot now, but for being our first YouTube video. How many would you say it got kind of in the first month, Kelsey?
8:47 Speaker 01 I don't know exactly, but maybe something around 10,000 or even a thousand.
8:52 Guy Raz? It's pretty good.
8:52 Speaker 01 It's like, pretty good for your first video with no background. And this is 2010, when like, not every single person was watching YouTube yet.
9:00 Guy Raz? So, did you instantly say to each other, "Let's do this, let's keep making videos"?
9:06 Speaker 02 No, no, not really. We, I don't think, did much else for that, the rest of that year, besides a follow-up video explaining how we made the hat to the costume a little bit more for people that had questions. But it was kind of a one and done. This was fun, now let's go back to doing school. And I think it was the next year, again, when we picked up with Halloween, where we started creating again and things started to take off.
9:30 Guy Raz? So you were in film school, presumably both of you thought, oh, you know, we'll pursue a career in, I don't know, working on films.
9:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's exactly it. That's right.
9:38 Guy Raz? And did you think that maybe you'd be producers, or directors, or editors? What did you think you would do in film?
9:45 Speaker 02 I was always really interested in the art side of film, so production design, costumes, set design, any of that kind of stuff. I really wanted to go into that one day eventually.
9:57 Guy Raz? Yeah.
9:58 Speaker 01 I found myself always just wanting to organize things. So, being on the producer's side of things was, I think, what interested me.
10:07 Guy Raz? All right, so you put this Halloween video out, get, you know, a thousand-plus views, pretty great, and you just leave this channel dormant. You do nothing for almost a year after that, right?
10:17 Speaker 01 There might have been a "How to make banana bread" video, but let's just call it dormant.
10:23 Guy Raz? Still a good way to experiment because you are in film school and why not, you know, make your own stuff and see what it looks like.
10:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, definitely getting our hands on and actually making things was one of the exciting things about being in film school and having the YouTube channel.
10:38 Guy Raz? All right, Halloween 2011 rolls around and you decide to do this again to make a video showing how to make your own Halloween costume?
10:47 Speaker 02 Yep, this is round two and this year, Black Swan, the movie, was super popular.
10:53 Guy Raz? Oh, yeah.
10:53 Speaker 02 And fast fashion wasn't quite yet a thing. So if you wanted to be the Black Swan for Halloween, you needed to make it. And we thought it would be an amazing Halloween costume. So since there was two of us, we were Black Swan and White Swan. We did the tutus, we made the crown, we went all out and we, again, uploaded this tutorial to YouTube.
11:15 Guy Raz? And the video shows the entire process, right? Like, shows you stitching and cutting and pasting sequins, like the whole process, right?
11:24 Speaker 02 It does, yeah. I think if I were to do it again, we would definitely film it a little bit better now. But if you go back and watch, it's kind of a cringey voiceover to how we did it. But...
11:35 Guy Raz? No shame there. You gotta start. By the way, if you made those first videos and they were perfect, we wouldn't put you on the show. You have to make crappy stuff at the beginning.
11:44 Speaker 02 Yes.
11:44 Guy Raz? That is a necessary part of the process in building a business.
11:46 Speaker 02 It's like a rite of passage, for sure.
11:48 Guy Raz? It's a rite of passage, yeah. All right, so you make the second video and does it get similar kind of traction compared to the first one?
11:56 Speaker 02 This one did much better than the first one. I think it, I want to say it got around 100,000 views that year.
12:03 Guy Raz? Wow.
12:04 Speaker 02 Which, again, for being really only our second big video on a YouTube channel is major at the time.
12:10 Guy Raz? And was that because you were using words like Black Swan and Halloween DIY? That was that one of the reasons?
12:15 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, it really was the hit movie of that year. Everyone was talking about it. And then it was setting it up to be kind of the hit costume that year. And it wasn't something you could go to the store and just buy a pre-made costume for, maybe like you could now. So people took to the internet to look up a tutorial on how to make their own. And we were there with a tutorial for you.
12:36 Guy Raz? Wow. I just do not remember that Halloween. I don't remember seeing a bunch of black swans. I just don't. But, but I don't know, maybe I wasn't paying attention. But I guess 2011 was the year of Black Swan Halloween.
12:47 Speaker 02 It was.
12:49 Guy Raz? So, once that happened, was there an intentional conversation between the two of you where you were like, "Okay, let's do something here. Let's make more stuff on YouTube."
13:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think it was around that time that we also got approved for the YouTube Partner Program, which means that we could start making money through our YouTube videos, which wasn't really a goal at all, but it was definitely just an exciting advancement. And with that video, people were asking, "Can you show us DIY home decor?" They were just requesting other video and content ideas. So, we were like, "Okay, this is fun. This is exciting. Let's keep going."
13:24 Guy Raz? And then what other videos were making right after that?
13:26 Speaker 02 I think because we had shot the Black Swan One in our small basement apartment by our college, I think people could tell that we were in kind of an apartment and wanted to know more. Like, "Who are you? Where do you live? Show us around your place. It looks cute. We want to know how you made those magnets on the fridge behind you." And so, it really started by just reading the comments and thinking, "Oh, we could make a video answering that question, or we could make a video showing them how we made that thing in the apartment."
13:53 Guy Raz? So, it started out like really focused on just craft making?
13:56 Speaker 02 Yes, very simple, very budget friendly too. I mean, we were both in college and a lot of our audience was too, which usually puts you on a tight budget, limited supplies, limited skill set even. So, we wanted to share the knowledge that we had and the budget we were working with.
14:11 Guy Raz? What kind of crafts were you making?
14:13 Speaker 02 Definitely mason jars. We're having a huge, a huge go at the time.
14:18 Guy Raz? Oh, yeah.
14:19 Speaker 02 Anything made with a mason jar was popping off, so we did-
14:21 Guy Raz? Salad. It was a salad bowl. It was a bars. They served drinks in mason jars.
14:27 Speaker 02 Yep. It was candle holders. It was vases.
14:30 Guy Raz? Yeah.
14:31 Speaker 02 It was anything you could make with a mason jar. That was huge for a while for us.
14:34 Guy Raz? And this really kind of evolved organically, simply by reading comments and people saying, "Hey, can you do something on this or on that?"
14:41 Speaker 02 Yes. I don't think we really had too much of a plan at the time. There wasn't a set schedule back then. It was kind of whenever we could, whenever we thought it'd be fun to make another video on another question or sort of trending item in the space at the time, we were down to do it.
14:57 Guy Raz? So eventually, people were like, yeah, I want you guys to do more DIY stuff. Like, how do you transform a room? And from what I understand, you guys did not know how to do this stuff initially. Like, you weren't children of contractors and home builders, right? Like, this was all new to you.
15:14 Speaker 02 Yeah, I feel like I grew up in a household where at least my dad really liked to work on the house. He also doesn't really have any formal training, but he's just passionate about creating a nice home. So I would want to paint my bedroom when I'm 12 years old. And he wouldn't let me just do it because he wanted it done right. So I'd have to kind of help and sit there and watch. And it was painful to not be able to just do it the way I want to do it. But in the end, it made for a nice bubblegum pink bedroom.
15:43 Guy Raz? Yeah. So walk me through the process of educating yourself about do-it-yourself work. Because now you do serious stuff, like you're putting up drywall and stuff. But how did you teach yourself how to do that stuff?
15:55 Speaker 02 I would say it's a good mix of watching other tutorials online and trying to educate ourselves. But for me, at least, it's a lot more of just trial and error. I just like to give my best go at something. And if it doesn't work, then that's the best way to learn how to do it better the next time. But yeah, I have no official training in most of this stuff that we're doing these days. It was a very slow progression. I think the first time I picked up a drill ever was when I was in college. And then you slowly work your way from there. When we were working with wood, you know, I definitely only used a handsaw to start. But years later, you get more comfortable to use a power saw. And that's a really big, scary move for you.
16:37 Speaker 02 But I think the thing that was really successful for us was showing that online, that this is our first time using this, and we're going to show you how it's not so scary. And it really made it feel more accessible to people out there as well.
16:50 Guy Raz? At what point in sort of putting these videos up, was it pretty soon after you became YouTube partners that you thought, let's make this our full-time jobs?
17:00 Speaker 01 It actually took a little while. So we started film school in 2010. We were curating the videos throughout school. We graduated in 2014 and we actually went into the film world. So Becky went and worked in the art department on commercial sets and film sets. I was working as a production coordinator for a commercial production company. And I think we just got so busy in the film world and the YouTube channel was still growing that it was like, we need to make a decision. We either need to be in the traditional film world or we need to pursue our YouTube channel. And we made the decision to go and be full-time with just our YouTube channel.
17:42 Guy Raz? All right. So you have this YouTube channel called The Sorry Girls. I think I'm mispronouncing sorry. I'm sorry.
17:48 Speaker 01 Sorry. It's literally the word sorry, but it depends where you're from. Whether you say sorry or sorry.
17:54 Guy Raz? I'm sorry. Yeah. How did that come about? Why you called The Sorry Girls?
17:58 Speaker 01 Well, when we way back then made that first Fateful Highlighter video, we were going to put it online. Everything was done, ready to go. And we realized, oh, wait, we actually have to have a channel to put this video on. And we were signing up for a YouTube channel. And it comes to that question where it asks you, what are you going to call this channel? And at that time, there were so many other creators that had just resorted to using a bunch of numbers and characters in their names because finding a unique name online can be difficult. So we thought we wanted to come up with something that was unique to us and something that might be timeless because we had no idea what was going to happen after this first video, if we were going to use the channel after this first video. So we, I think we're hesitant to call it something about Halloween or costume because it might not be that.
18:43 Speaker 02 And we kind of wrote a list of what are things about us that might not change. And the fact that we were Canadian came up a lot. So one of the going names was the A girls, perhaps because we say A a lot in Canada.
18:55 Guy Raz? Oh, yeah.
18:56 Speaker 02 But, yeah.
18:57 Guy Raz? A, E H.
18:58 Speaker 02 That's right.
18:58 Guy Raz? The E H girls.
18:59 Speaker 02 The E H girls.
19:00 Guy Raz? People will be like, the eh, that eh, it could be weird, right?
19:03 Speaker 02 Yeah.
19:03 Guy Raz? You wouldn't know. Yeah.
19:05 Speaker 02 So the Sorry Girls was one of the other ones, which seemed to be the better move at the time. And that's what we went with.
19:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, but we're not sorry for anything. Just to be clear.
19:13 Guy Raz? Not sorry, but it's just because it's Canadian to kind of
19:17 Speaker 02 Sorry.
19:17 Guy Raz? be preemptive in your apologies. Just like, I'm sorry. Like you go into a store and you're apologizing for asking to buy something in a store.
19:24 Speaker 02 That's actually so accurate. I haven't really considered it like that, but you are right.
19:27 Guy Raz? Right? Yeah. Yeah. My wife's Canadian, so I know this. You go to a store in Canada and you're like, sorry, do you but but you're asking to buy, you're going to spend your money there. Like, you're apologizing for that, but that's just Canadian.
19:38 Speaker 02 It's so true.
19:39 Speaker 01 Or when somebody bumps into you, or you bump into a standalone piece of furniture, you say sorry.
19:44 Guy Raz? You apologize to furniture. Yeah.
19:46 Speaker 01 Sometimes.
19:48 Guy Raz? All right.
19:50 Guy Raz? So you have this channel and at what point, I mean, because you're both working in the film industry because you've got to pay rent in Toronto. At what point did you, were you guys able able to say, wait a minute, you know, we're doing pretty well here. Maybe we should just quit our jobs and do this full time, turn this into our job.
20:09 Speaker 02 I think for me, it wasn't so much that I necessarily had a certainty that this was going to work out and this was going to be the thing I was going to do. But it was more that we had seen other people take a pause from YouTube for an extended period of time and try and come back. And their online presence just wasn't the same.
20:28 Guy Raz? Right.
20:28 Speaker 02 It's kind of like a train you need to catch on as it's going. Whereas working in the film industry was really exciting, but I felt like the opportunity could potentially always be there should I come back to it one day. But YouTube, I did not feel that same certainty at all. And since it was really taking off, we thought, okay, let's maybe try it for a year since it's kind of feels like a now or never opportunity.
20:50 Guy Raz? Yeah.
20:51 Speaker 02 And if it doesn't work out, then we can head back into our previous passions.
20:57 Guy Raz? We're gonna take a quick break, but back with more from the Sorry Girls, Kelsey MacDermaid and Becky Wright in just a moment. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This Lab.
21:16 Guy Raz? Does your team want a website that looks and feels handcrafted but is still fast to ship? Well, Framer is built exactly for that. With Framer, you design on a visual canvas with responsive layouts, hosting, and a CMS built in, so the work is production-ready from day one. And you can get it done with help from Framer's AI agents. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams, and businesses ship production-ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right. Prompt, inspect, edit, and publish in one place at a whole new pace. AI agents and humans work together.
21:58 Guy Raz? The agents bring speed and scale, and people bring taste, judgment, and control. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/built for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/built. Rules and restrictions may apply. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities. It's changing the way businesses get work done. The questions they ask, the decisions they make, the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of NetSuite with AI woven into the tools your business already relies on.
22:43 Guy Raz? NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together. And that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called "Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI Is Changing Everyday Work." And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work Across your entire organization and how to position your business to prosper from it.
23:28 Guy Raz? If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get NetSuite's free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/built. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/built. Netsuite.com/built. Stripe is built for whatever comes next because the pace of change has never been faster than it is right now. New business models, new currencies, and new expectations for speed, reliability, and scale. Stripe builds financial infrastructure that helps businesses start, grow, and operate globally. From payments and billing to fraud protection and cross-border payouts, Stripe is built
24:13 Guy Raz? to support the new pace of commerce. They're trusted by the companies building at the frontier, from 86% of the Forbes AI 50 to global leaders like Salesforce and OpenAI. In fact, more than 1.6% of global GDP flows through Stripe, with Stripe's users processing a combined $1.9 trillion last year. So if you're already thinking about what's next for your business, see what's possible at stripe.com.
24:53 Guy Raz? Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm talking with Kelsey MacDermaid and Becky Wright, better known as the Sorry Girls. All right, so in 2015, what was the plan? Was the idea, let's just, let's make content, let's just make a lot of content and videos and see where it goes?
25:12 Speaker 02 Yeah, I would say so. I mean, even so now, the internet is ever-changing and it was really hard at the time to say where the natural career path for this kind of job goes because there was no one who had really retired from a YouTube career at that time. Like, there wasn't anyone to look at that had done the whole path.
25:30 Guy Raz? Yeah.
25:31 Speaker 02 So it was hard to say where we can go with this, but we were excited about what we were doing kind of right now. And the channel was really growing. We were kind of experimenting on other platforms, too. And every day was just, okay, how can we be better at what we're doing right now and just make more and cooler things?
25:49 Guy Raz? Tell me how you started to evaluate what worked and what didn't. I mean, you initially were responding to people's requests to make videos, but very quickly, thematically, it became about DIY projects. Because you had to be focused, you had to be focused on one thing, right? Otherwise, you know, no one knows what you are about. So when you were kind of thinking about what kind of videos to make, how much, you know, sort of analysis were you doing around what worked and what didn't?
26:21 Speaker 02 There's definitely a lot of, you know, paying attention to what's trending at the moment, what our peer group seems to be interested in. But I think a lot of the success of what we've been doing comes from just doing what we are naturally passionate about at the time. And our audience seems to respond really well to that. So kind of fading out of the Halloween costumes and maybe the fashion stuff a little less too, just because we were so genuinely passionate about home decor and design. And the audience really loved that. I mean, we started our DIY journey by just shooting our hands essentially and showing us making something with like a simple voiceover. And then we got more confident to have our face on it and explain as we were going.
27:05 Speaker 02 And now, I mean, we're creating things that feel more like full-blown shows where we have a whole storyline to the DIY process as well. And that's just because it's been what we're passionate about making at the time, and it's really worked well.
27:17 Guy Raz? How did you grow your audience? I mean, part of it has to be luck, right? Like, I'm lucky, we have a very large audience. And people ask me, how did you get your audience? What'd you do? And we didn't do anything. There was no like tricks. It just, over time, we did a lot of work. We do a lot of work. We work really hard on making a quality show. What about you? I mean, is it a similar story? Is it just grinding and grinding and slowly but surely people finding out about you?
27:45 Speaker 01 I think that's pretty much it. I mean, we never paid for like ads or anything. It was just, it was taking opportunities that came to us, whether it was to be on like a local talk show, talking about a DIY project, or just creating those videos that we were excited by, that we knew the audience was going to be excited by. You know, when we met our manager in Toronto, who, again, we were not seeing managers of YouTube channels back then, but meeting him opened up the doors to more opportunities, saying yes to brands that came our way. I think just a combination of a bunch of things and working hard and treating it like it is our full-time job and where we're making our money is, is how we were able to grow it.
28:28 Speaker 02 I also think too, we were, we were really focused on finding that niche that was unique to us. I think that's how the channel kind of blew up at the beginning as well as being in the right place at the right time when there wasn't someone there already. There wasn't a lot of DIY and home decor channels back at that time. So to be a place where people can go who are looking for that kind of content.
28:50 Guy Raz? Yeah. So at what point did you guys start to sort of strategize and say, well, okay, we can make videos and maybe make some revenue from the YouTube ads, but we know that it's very hard to make money from the ads alone unless you're Mr. Beast. So when did you, how did you guys start to have a conversation around turning this into a sustainable business?
29:11 Speaker 01 I think it was around the same time, 2015, when we decided to leave our film jobs. We decided we wanted to go all in. So we went to City Hall, we incorporated. Shortly after that, we got our first office, which was a tiny little 200 square foot space in this kind of three-story complex. And we just treated it like a full-time job, which I think a lot of people don't see that from YouTubers. You expect that you just make up your own schedule. You work whenever you want. You don't work whenever you don't want. But I think also because it was Becky and I, there's two people, we needed to agree on a time to come together. So saying, we're going to work Monday to Friday, nine to six at the time, like that's going to be our time. That's where we're going to go in. That's where we're going
29:55 Speaker 01 to work. We're going to film, we're going to edit, and we're going to just be consistent at it.
30:00 Guy Raz? All right, let's talk about the economics of turning, you know, what initially started out as YouTube videos into a full business, a media company, which is what you have now. Sorry, girls. Let's break it down first. Let's talk about advertising. So you've got about 2 million subscribers to the channel. But are views alone to your videos enough to sustain your business? Is there enough ad revenue just from that to support? Because I think you've got like eight or 10 employees now. Is the ad revenue enough or not even close?
30:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, not really, not really close. We have a lot of overhead now. It just has slowly, slowly built as we've needed different members of our team to help sustain everything that we have going on. We have a bigger office now, you know, upgraded from that 200 square foot office to like a 2,000 square foot office. And yeah, there's a lot of overhead. So AdSense is just one piece of the pie.
30:56 Guy Raz? I ask this, and we've had some YouTubers on who've kind of broken it down for us. And it's eye opening because actually, I mean, of course, there are some YouTubers who can rely entirely on advertising. But can you give us a sense of sort of ballpark revenue that you bring in a year of the company?
31:09 Speaker 01 Over a million, under five?
31:11 Guy Raz? That's pretty great. I mean, that's amazing for a small business that you created on a YouTube channel.
31:18 Speaker 01 And knowing that we employ, you know, eight people and have offered jobs to eight different people is really cool to say we can do that.
31:25 Guy Raz? Yeah. The actual amount of money you make on an ad is it's fractions of a penny, right? I mean, you might get a million views on a video and the ad revenue is really not that much.
31:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think it really depends. It also depends per creator. From what I've heard from our contacts at YouTube and just other creators, our CPM is actually kind of high. And I think it's just because of the-
31:45 Guy Raz? This is the cost per thousand viewers, I should, we should say, the CPM.
31:49 Speaker 01 Yeah. So I think based on who our audience is, what our type of content is, how much you make is going to vary depending on creator.
31:56 Guy Raz? So you know that there's that revenue stream, but it's not enough to sustain a company. So you've got to do other things to turn this into a sustainable business. And one of the things you do are these brand partnerships. Tell me how you got into that and how you, I mean, how did that begin?
32:15 Speaker 02 Well, I think this happens for a lot of people that start making careers online is when you build up an audience even of a small size, you start getting emails to your inbox asking you to promote certain things. And the first couple of offers you get might not be for the most exciting companies for the largest amount of money, but it's a really good place to start. And just showing that you're able to work a brand seamlessly into your content is a way that a lot of people start. And we since then have grown more into kind of an outreach where we actively go look for brand partners for our videos now. But in the beginning stage, it was definitely, you know, if we got an offer, maybe once every few months, we were really excited about that.
32:58 Guy Raz? Yeah. And obviously because of what you do, because you're, you know, you're renovating rooms, you're showing people how to decorate rooms, they're natural partners, right? Like paint companies and furniture companies and I think IKEA is one of your sponsors, right?
33:14 Speaker 02 Yeah, they vary like all over the place. And I think what's kind of cool about what we do is there's also that lifestyle element, just learning more about Becky and I and how we live our lives. So even something like thrift stores, yes, we can shop there for decor, but also we like to dress from thrift stores and only shop secondhand. So brands can be integrated in so many different ways.
33:35 Guy Raz? Right. Help me understand your approach to branded content, right? Because running a YouTube channel, especially a successful one, when you have people now, it's a dance. It's delicate because on the one hand, you don't want to alienate your viewers, right? But on the other hand, you need to create a sustainable business model. So there are some YouTubers who will just do any brand partnerships. They'll do whatever comes through the door. And there are others who have a different approach around that. How do you know if it's the right brand partner? What is your criteria?
34:03 Speaker 01 We definitely do not agree to every single brand deal that arises. I think that we look at our values. We look at if it's going to be of value to our audience. If they're going to find it an interesting brand and informative brand. We look at the brand's values. We always look into what their sustainability practices are, how they operate. These things are all important to us when we're choosing a brand. And then, you know, there's also the little piece of the pie that has to be the right, the right monetary value in order for us to include it in a video. Then I also want to thank the audiences out there for watching ads, for listening to brand integrations, because they really are clearly the lifeline of creators that are trying to create content for free for audiences.
34:46 Guy Raz? So you've got the brand partnerships and the ad revenue. What other sources of revenue are there? I mean, I know it's a sort of fundamentally what you're trying to do is to help educate people and it's a mission, but also you've got to create a sustainable business. And there's a business side of the story is really interesting. And I think lots of people who are trying to do something like this find it particularly helpful. So besides the ad revenue and the brand partnerships, what are other ways that you can generate revenue for the business?
35:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, we've been experimenting with lots of different options out there. You know, some other platforms, not YouTube specific, are offering different routes of monetization, which has been an exciting development. Some things we do consistently are affiliate links. So since we do mention products a lot and use a lot of items in our projects, sometimes we're able to share a link that offers us a tiny little cutback for people clicking that link and maybe purchasing the product. It's not a huge piece of the pie, but it's something that's kind of always there and consistent, which is great. Then there's also licensing. So if somebody wants to use our content for whatever reason, we recently had an airline license it to be short form content in the entertainment system.
35:59 Speaker 01 Or we do speaking engagements as well. But we're constantly working on developing those other revenue streams, things that don't relate so much to our YouTube content, because, you know, we might not always be able to be the faces of this channel. We're just trying to create something that will last longer than this.
36:19 Guy Raz? You know, I noticed on your website, you have a shop. And I love it, but I also look at it and I think, wow, there's so much more you can do here. And I'm sure you're thinking about it because, you know, you can sell things on your shop, products that you curate. But what's cool about your shop is it's basically templates. It's like DIY templates. And most of it's free. A lot of these templates are free. Like if you want to make a tissue box cover, you give away the template for free or a template for a face mask. And then people can make it themselves. It seems like, I'm assuming, part of your strategy, your long-term strategy, is to build out an even more robust shop.
36:59 Speaker 02 You know, creating a shop, creating products, creating merchandise is definitely something that we see a lot of other creators do. Definitely something that's always been on our mind. But I'll be honest in that I think our values have gotten in the way a little bit of us being able to do that. We are, you know, pretty sustainable, pretty eco-friendly. This is something that we just really believe in. And it hasn't ever felt right to create t-shirts or just sweaters or hats.
37:25 Guy Raz? So when you say it conflicts with your values, do you mean that you guys are, you're sort of wary of being overly commercial and selling a bunch of stuff on your site?
37:34 Speaker 02 I think we just don't want to promote overconsumption and buying things just for the sake that maybe our name is attached to it.
37:40 Guy Raz? Wow. Mind blown. Mind blown.
37:46 Speaker 02 So while we definitely would love to explore the idea of a shop one day, it is something we're actively talking about. We want to make sure we're doing it the right way and that whatever product providing is something that's actually useful to the person purchasing it, something that's made using the best resources possible, sustainable way. Because again, our name will be attached to it and we want to make sure it feels right.
38:06 Guy Raz? Basically, what you're saying is you don't want people to just buy a bunch of stuff?
38:10 Speaker 02 Yes.
38:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, we know it'd be pretty, you know, it might be easy to just take some money when you're in a position like ours, but that has never felt right to us. So we would want to create something that is special and well-made, that people actually need, because we don't want to sell stuff to people just for the sake of it.
38:30 Guy Raz? We've got to take a quick break to thank our sponsors. You're listening to How I Built This Lab. Back in a moment.
38:52 Guy Raz? Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm talking with Kelsey McDermide and Becky Wright, better known as the Sorry Girls. You know, I think a lot about the creator economy because we've done a lot of episodes now about it. And what I find so interesting is that how it can lead to so many other businesses, right? So for example, in your case, there is a world where because you've already built up a brand and a reputation through your videos, you create a business that renovates homes, or redesigns homes, or redecorates homes, a business that is franchised, that is based on your design principles. I mean, there are all kinds of things you could do with that brand.
39:33 Speaker 02 Yep, that's definitely come up in conversation at some point when we're trying to explore what can we do with what we have so far.
39:41 Guy Raz? And really, I mean, you've chronicled your journey of learning as you've moved forward. And now, 10 years in, you've developed a reputation as arbiters of interesting tastes and ideas and design schemes. I mean, people go to your site to learn about these things and to see what you've done. So you don't have as much to prove.
40:02 Speaker 02 I mean, I will say with the rise in other creators in the space that we've seen over the last couple of years, we are definitely always on our toes and aware of how our industry is changing. And I, you know, maybe it's just imposter syndrome, or maybe it's the hate comments that get to you.
40:21 Guy Raz? Yeah.
40:22 Speaker 02 But, you know, we have to keep proving ourselves. I think that.
40:24 Guy Raz? Yeah.
40:25 Speaker 02 I would just say with every new step you make, I think you advance yourself into like a new bracket of people to be compared with. So as our content got more and more show-like, we were now compared with the people on HGTV making these, you know, million-dollar series. And as our designs got more and more in-depth, we're now possibly being compared with people that have full and architectural degrees, and I don't have that. So I think there's always a new level of people to aspire to and maybe find yourself compared to.
40:56 Guy Raz? Yeah, I know. I hear you on that. I've been doing this for 25 years and I still get nervous about my interviewing skills every single day. So I hear you. I mean, I think it's what keeps people good at what they do.
41:06 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
41:07 Guy Raz? So in the long run, is there any value in like, for example, trying to make a television show? Or is it not really necessary? I mean, your reach with YouTube is enormous, but is there value in like, I don't know, doing an HGTV show or, you know, working with one of those companies?
41:25 Speaker 02 There's definitely value, I'd say, and interest because the people that watch TV can be a very different audience than the people that are online and watching YouTube or on TikTok, whatnot. I think we'd want to just make sure that we find the right partner that feels like it represents us. We've kind of built this brand image and have this whole history online that whatever we go for off-platform, we want it to feel like it really represents us and embodies kind of what we've created so far.
41:54 Guy Raz? So, okay, so there are a lot of different ways you can grow and it seems like you're really grinding into those possibilities now. I'm sure you get a lot of people who want to become YouTube creators who get in touch with you and they'll say, how do I do this? How do I start? Or, you know, what's the secret? And of course, the secret is work really hard and do it consistently and just grind away. But, I mean, do you think there's room on YouTube to capture attention around design, aesthetics? Is there room to stand out now? Or do you think it's overly saturated?
42:28 Speaker 02 Every time I start to think there's not, there's a new creator or channel that pops up that started three months ago and somehow now has more views than we do. So I think there's always space for new voices and I think that's really what it is, is finding your own voice and what you can bring to the table that's unique to you.
42:47 Guy Raz? Right. I've noticed this in the last few years. A lot more DIY videos are women. And it makes so much sense because if you are watching a video and it's a man, a lot of people watch that and they think, well, that person's not speaking to me in any way. It's not that you can't do that. It's just, he's not speaking to me.
43:07 Speaker 01 That's right. And even now, after 10 plus years of creating online, sometimes I find that we have to check ourselves too, because we've built up such a wealth of knowledge and skillset after doing this for so long that I want to make sure that our content is still hitting that approachable, like attainable level of education. That if you're watching it for the first time and you don't know that I've had, whatever, eight years of practice with the saw, that I can still teach it to you in a way that you understand it and feels relatable.
43:35 Guy Raz? You know, from what I gather, the goal here is to produce content that's useful, that people can walk away with and use and integrate into their lives. But one of the peculiar things that happens to creators, whether you're making video content or like this show, audio content is, you give it away for free and then you get people who are just mean. And you're just like, wait, I'm making this for free. It is ad-supported and you get it for free and you're sending me mean stuff? Comments? How do you feel about it? I mean, does it ever rattle you?
44:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes when we get a particularly bad comment, it can affect everybody in the office, not just Becky and I, but anybody on the team that has worked hard on, you know, the content that we're putting out there. But I think we're getting healthier and healthier about how we understand it and deal with it. You know, if somebody wants to say something that mean, I think it says more about them than it says about us. And also comments our engagement. So even if it's a negative comment, it's engagement. They showed up, they saw the ads. So thanks for stopping by.
44:38 Guy Raz? Boom. Thanks for stopping by.
44:43 Guy Raz? You know, I mean, we're living at this very strange moment. We just got through the pandemic. We're still kind of in it. And there's a supply chain crisis. And there's also a just a massive shortage, certainly here in the United States, and I'm assuming in Canada, of workers available. There's just such a high demand. You know, I hear stories, I'm sure you do, of people waiting, you know, five, six months for a piece of furniture to arrive, or people to come and repair something at the house. So I have to imagine there's been a huge spike in DIY all over North America and probably even overseas. Have you noticed that? Do you see any evidence of that?
45:20 Speaker 02 Yes, absolutely. And actually, even before, I think, supply chain became the issue you're talking about now, it was really at the start of the pandemic, when everyone went working from home. I think people really started to consider their home spaces and their work from home offices way more than they ever have, since they were spending 99% of their lives in home now. They were looking at their spaces, thinking, I want to do something to this room. How do I do it? And then they found us online, which was a funny place to be in, seeing as like, the world was going through something so horrific, and then hearing people losing businesses and jobs, but somehow our views were still keeping up, if not doing better.
45:59 Guy Raz? As the competition for eyes, earballs and eyeballs, right, grows, because we're all competing for the same thing, right? I want people to listen to my show, and Netflix wants people to watch their stuff, and Apple TV does, and Disney does, and YouTubers do, and ultimately, that's what we need. That's the commodity we're all after. But as the competition heats up, especially on YouTube, is it becoming harder to grow the audience now? Have you noticed a slowdown?
46:24 Speaker 02 I think maybe the way we talk about growing an audience has changed a little bit. There was definitely the push for subscribers and your subscriber number being your biggest thing at one point.
46:36 Guy Raz? Slam that like button.
46:37 Speaker 02 Exactly.
46:38 Guy Raz? Slam it.
46:38 Speaker 02 That's right. But I think that people are maybe physically hitting the subscribe button a little less than they were five years ago. But eyeballs on videos and the diversity of where we're now getting views from, I think, is still Growing, which is really great. I think there's no slowdown in what people are willing to watch and where. As we keep seeing, there's so many different TV networks and apps popping up every day. And there is people watching them, which is a really good sign.
47:04 Guy Raz? Yeah. When you think about the opportunities that people have now to make their own essentially media brands, right? You don't need to go through a Canadian broadcasting company. You don't have to go to the CBC. You don't have to go to NBC in the US. You don't have to go through that. You can do it yourself, right? It's pretty remarkable that in theory, anybody could build something with a big audience if they do it well enough and get lucky. In your view, are traditional media outlets less important for people who want to build an audience and want to build a brand?
47:38 Speaker 02 I don't think they're kind of the be all, end all gatekeepers that maybe they once were. Because people can definitely make a name and career for themselves totally on their own. I mean, we did it. But I will say they still do hold a certain weight. It's funny, we, after a few years of doing our YouTube channel, had amassed like millions of views, which is huge, right? And we find ourselves on a local morning show that's on quote unquote, traditional TV. And all of a sudden, people are like, wow, you're really doing it. I saw you on TV this morning. That's amazing.
48:13 Guy Raz? Yeah, you're like, wait, we have 300 million YouTube views and you're telling me I'm on local TV? And all of a sudden, it's a big deal?
48:20 Speaker 02 Exactly, exactly. So there is still some importance there, I would say.
48:24 Guy Raz? Yeah.
48:26 Speaker 02 I also think that for us, what is interesting is that it offers a new audience. I don't think you necessarily even want to start on traditional television because, you know, we've reached a point where we've had a few television contracts put in front of us. And we have to turn them away just because they're so restricting. And it's not viable for us to do anything in traditional media when we already have something that we've built that is so strong. So for us at this point, we're seeing it as a nice addition to grow our channel and even just try something new. Because, you know, we love to try new things, but it's not something we necessarily need to do or have to do.
49:06 Guy Raz? Yeah. So if you're looking out in 10 years' time. And you're thinking about how to evolve the business. What do you see it becoming?
49:15 Speaker 02 Well, I think our current pillars right now definitely lie within education and design. And I think as long as that remains a passion of ours, that's likely where things will go in the future. Maybe it's building out education to have course offerings or I don't know, a book maybe. And then design, definitely just wherever the design space is going, I think we'll be there trying to offer eco alternatives, budget-friendly alternatives, just because that is a going passion of ours. But I think, like I said before, it's so hard to anticipate what the future could look like for someone that has a career in online entertainment.
49:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, and we definitely have to walk that fine balance of we've gotten to where we are by just a little bit flying by the seat of our pants. We, you know, yes, we've really worked really hard. We've rented office spaces, we've worked with big companies, we've hired a team. But also, we haven't ever been like, this is our business model for the next five years. So I think this is the first time that we're starting to figure out what that could be in the near future. Mostly just because we want to set ourselves up for success. When in the past, maybe the stakes were a little bit lower, we were younger. And as we're getting older, we're like, okay, you know, this is clearly our path.
50:33 Speaker 01 So we need to make sure this will work for us in the next five or 10 or 20 years. And I think it's really building up things outside of just video content creation, or at least video content creation with maybe our faces in it. Because right now, the company keeps chugging because Becky and I show up and film videos. And it'd be amazing to reach a point where, you know, maybe there's properties that we're purchasing or designing, or like Becky said, books, courses. I think that the options are kind of endless. But one of our goals is to figure out what we can build that won't rely on our faces showing up to the office at 9 a.m.
51:14 Guy Raz? That's the thing, because you are both the business, but you're also the brand too.
51:19 Speaker 01 Yes.
51:20 Guy Raz? And so I guess the question you have to ask yourselves is, how do we decouple ourselves from the brand? How do we keep this brand and business growing without us as the face of it?
51:29 Speaker 02 Definitely. That's a big question mark that we're always working on.
51:33 Speaker 01 Yep. And I think that's why it's important to create things, whether it's a video or some other kind of product, content, idea. It needs to be something people find valuable and actually want because if our faces maybe aren't attached to it, will it succeed?
51:50 Guy Raz? Yeah. Kelsey, Becky, thank you so much.
51:54 Speaker 02 Thank you so much. This was fun.
51:57 Speaker 01 Thanks for having us.
51:58 Guy Raz? Hey, thanks so much for listening to How I Built This Lab. Please do follow us on your podcast app so you always have the latest episode downloaded. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at HowIBuiltThis and mine is at @GuyRaz. And on Instagram, I'm at @Guy.Raz. If you want to contact the team, our email address is [email protected] . This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with editing by John Isabella. Our music was composed by Ramtin Arablouei. Our audio engineer was Brian Jarboe. Our production team at How I Built This includes Alex Chung, Chris Messini, Elaine Coats, J.C.
52:39 Guy Raz? Howard, Liz Metzger, Josh Lash, Sam Paulson, Catherine Seifer, and Kerry Thompson. Neva Grant is our supervising editor. Beth Donovan is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.
Previous I.R.S. Records: Miles Copeland Next Kodiak Cakes: Joel Clark (2020) Page updated October 26, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
