Is the SPAC back?

Today, on TechCrunch’s Equity podcast, hosts Kirsten Korosec, Max Zeff and Anthony Ha are unpacking the week’s news, including the possible return of the SPAC in an uncertain IPO market. It’s a curious moment for a public debut, as Kirsten points out, especially after so much chatter that 2025 would be the big comeback year for blockbuster IPOs, but some major players like Klarna and StubHub have already hit pause. And as investor Mark Goldberg put it on this week’s show, folks holding their breath for a fintech IPO wave this year “are going to be blue in the face.” Listen to the full episode to hear about: How Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos’s AI voices could be taking over a crosswalk near you Figma’s IPO plans, and questions on the Equity crew’s mind ahead of the S-1. How Hugging Face’s latest acquisition confirms its push into humanoid robotics The latest wave of OpenAI models, updates to its o3 and o4-mini reasoning models, and why all eyes are on the bigger launch still to come: GPT-5. Equity will be back next week, so stay tuned! Equity is TechCrunch’s flagship podcast, produced by Theresa Loconsolo, and posts every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Spotify and all the casts. You also can follow Equity on X and Threads, at @EquityPod. For the full episode transcript, for those who prefer reading over listening, check out our full archive of episodes here. Credits: Equity is produced by Theresa Loconsolo with editing by Kell. We’d also like to thank TechCrunch’s audience development team. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next time. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Anthony Ha?

  This episode of Equity is brought to you by Schneider Electric. Schneider Electric, advancing energy tech.

• 0:16Anthony Ha?

  So Max, you're the only one of us who actually lives in the Bay Area, which we don't maybe love to broadcast, but I'm going to say at the top of the show. Have you actually heard these AI voices of Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg at traffic lights, crosswalks?

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it seems like these voices haven't quite infiltrated San Francisco. It seems like they're more down in Palo Alto right now, where if you press a crosswalk button, you will hear Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg telling you to cross the street or say things like, "I'm so lonely," or "Please don't tax the rich." But no, I haven't been graced with their beautiful voices just yet.

• 0:50Kirsten Korosec?

  Okay, so that's either a great reason to avoid Palo Alto or a 100% reason to whip out the corporate card and go take a field trip.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  You know, I've been meaning to do more of that boots-on-the-ground reporting, so I think I will.

• 1:03Anthony Ha?

  When you said that it's mostly in Silicon Valley, that was disappointing to me in the sense that, I mean, you know, there are pedestrian-friendly cities in Silicon Valley, like Palo Alto has like a downtown area, Menlo Park has, or Mountain View has a little bit of a downtown area, but like, most people in Silicon Valley are driving. I don't know how many people are actually doing, you know, like, walking across crosswalks. Maybe that's why these hackers were able to pull it off, was because these are crosswalks that people aren't using anyway.

• 1:31Kirsten Korosec?

  So I guess what you're saying is that people might hear it if they roll down the window in their Tesla while the random stray pedestrian attempts to cross the street.

• 1:42Anthony Ha?

  Maybe they paid someone at like a TaskRabbit to go run out and hit the button for them.

• 1:46Kirsten Korosec?

  Well, on that note, let's get into the actual show. Hello and welcome back to Equity, TechCrunch's flagship podcast about the business of startups. Today is Friday, April 18th. I'm Kirsten Korosec, Transportation Editor at TechCrunch.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  I'm Max Zep, a senior reporter with TechCrunch.

• 2:03Anthony Ha?

  And I'm Anthony Ha, TechCrunch's Weekend Editor.

• 2:05Kirsten Korosec?

  Well, on the show today, we have deals of the week from Kodiak Robotics and Hugging Faces acquisition. And then after the break, we're going to get into OpenAI's latest launches and Figma's IPO plans. So I want to get into this company called Kodiak Robotics, an autonomous vehicle, really self-driving truck company that went public via SPAC. And I'm wondering if either one of you follow the self-driving truck space at all? Am I the only nerd here that does that? Or do you guys actually pay attention?

• 2:36Anthony Ha?

  I followed it in the sense that I will read the TechCrunch stories about it, that I need to do it in order to do my job. I don't know, does that count?

• 2:44Kirsten Korosec?

  Yeah, sure. Why not? Max, are self-driving trucks on top of mind for you?

• 2:48Speaker 01

  I'd be like Anthony, of course, I read everything TechCrunch writes, but I do think that I am very interested in the self-driving truck space, just because it seems like something that, you know, truck drivers are just driving one direction for so long. I mean, this feels like something that autonomous driving should be able to do. It feels so much more attainable than like what Waymo is doing. And yet, we're still not really seeing it kind of be fully adopted. That's my take, just like, kind of, on the space. And I've thought this for many years.

• 3:21Kirsten Korosec?

  Yeah, that's because you live in the California bubble. But outside California, Max, there actually are self-driving trucks testing every day in Texas. Kodiak is one of those. A lot of these companies got their start in California, and the regulatory framework in California is very prohibitive, specifically towards trucking. And part of that is because of like, protecting jobs. And also, there are just a lot of regulatory hoops to jump through to do any kind of autonomous vehicle testing in California. But in Texas, that's not the case. And a number of companies that were born in California are setting up shop in California, and Kodiak is one of them. Really interesting company, has been doing

• 4:02Kirsten Korosec?

  a lot with very little in terms of private fundraising, but is now announcing that they're doing a SPAC, which, I gotta say, I thought we were done with SPACs. I thought we were done with SPACs. And here we are, back with SPACs.

• 4:19Anthony Ha?

  This feels like a throwback in multiple ways in that, you know, I think it seemed like there was like a peak, a peak of excitement around autonomous trucking a couple of years ago. It does seem like, you know, the, the, the need and the interest is still there, but it's just sort of not as hot as it was. And then at the same time, SPACs definitely had a big moment and then kind of went away. And I mean, this is a simplification. I'm probably being unfair to some companies, but I would say that my big takeaway from that brief shining SPAC era was that most of the companies that were trying to go public via SPAC were not great. And the reason that that period ended was it turned out like, oh, these are not good investments. And so I'm, I'm curious if, you know, things are going to play out differently this time, or this is just going to be another company where you're like, oh, this, you know,

• 5:04Anthony Ha?

  oh, they're going public this way because they could not go, they, they would not work as a traditional public company.

• 5:09Kirsten Korosec?

  Right. Well, okay. So while that is a generalization, you're not wrong, that a lot of, in particular, deep tech startups, which was really interesting to me because like EV startups and autonomous vehicle startups going SPAC that didn't have any real hope of revenue for a really long time, went and SPACed in 2021. And you've seen the repercussions of that. Like the consequences have been many of those companies no longer exist. Kodiak and Aurora, Aurora is another company that's SPAC. They're kind of, I would put them in the frenemies category. I think they respect each other like the founders do, but they definitely, if you listen to what they say publicly, you can tell that they're kind of poking at each other.

• 5:52Kirsten Korosec?

  They are both SPAC companies and I think that now could be okay for them because they are on the cusp of sort of commercial, you know, in Kodiak's case, actual revenue now, they are doing driverless runs. And so while the revenue isn't remarkable, it is happening. So there's something there, right? There's something to bite into. Kodiak is also interesting in that they

• 6:21Kirsten Korosec?

  They back to that theme of doing a lot with little, you know, they didn't raise a billion dollars like some other companies out there. They went into defense and this was before the SPAC, but I think that that it wasn't a pivot so much as a diversification. And that could help them a little bit, too. But it's a lot is going to count on how they navigate driverless commercial launches in Texas over the next year to 18 months. That is, it really is going to come down to that.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Jerse, can I take a step back a moment for the people who haven't heard the term SPAC since 2021? And can we just get like a refresher on like why SPACs were so popular then? And why they might be kind of coming back right now? Like, like, what are the kind of trade offs instead of doing a traditional IPO?

• 7:12Kirsten Korosec?

  Sure, pull up your chair, folks, and sit around the campfire because I'm about to give a lesson on SPACs. We'll keep it brief because we do have another deal to get to. But I will say this, so SPACs, which is a merger with a publicly traded, quote unquote, blank check company. So a company that doesn't have a product and has gone public. And it is now merged with a private company, in this case Kodiak. And the reason why this financial instrument's actually been around for a long time. It came back in 2021 and oftentimes was referred to as a new thing. And it isn't, it's not a new thing and it wasn't a new thing in 2021. But it does go through these ebbs and flows of being used.

• 7:52Kirsten Korosec?

  SPACs in general, the process, isn't cheaper than going and filing for a traditional IPO, but it is oftentimes faster. And the sort of my understanding in 2021 was that there was this moment in time where a number of companies that were already having trouble with rising interest rates and Really the lack of capital, they really needed to raise money quickly. And the private capital markets weren't providing that same level. And there was a brief window where this was an opportunity. I don't know if SPACs are back per se, but Kodiak, I think, timing on this one

• 8:33Kirsten Korosec?

  could be better than, you know, everyone jumping on the bandwagon in 2021.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I just think it's worth noting, like, like for the last several months, really, we've been talking about how the IPO market is coming back. And I think that it's impossible to look at, you know, Kodiak getting interested in doing a SPAC. And Bloomberg actually reported earlier this morning that there's a lot of increased activity in the SPAC market right now as well. And it just does seem to be like a direct result of the kind of market instability that we're seeing right now, because this is kind of an easier way to go public.

• 9:07Kirsten Korosec?

  Yeah, but not cheaper. So anyway, just remember that all you folks out there thinking about SPACs, not cheaper. Okay, Max, Hugging Face, bought a humanoid robotics startup. I feel like I'm hearing about humanoid robotics all the time. Feels very hypey right now. They acquired Pollen Robotics. Is this something that is just like hypey? Or is this, you know, we should be paying attention to this?

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like you said, I mean, Hugging Face acquired this robotics startup. And what do we kind of make of this? I mean, Hugging Face is someone who, you know, they provide these open source models on their platform. And there's actually a really big link right now between AI and robotics, because everyone thinks that generative AI is going to be able to power these humanoid robotics that can go around your house and whatnot. And I actually talked to Hugging Face's chief science officer and co-founder a few weeks ago, Thomas Wolf, and he told me that they're interested in this robotics push right now. He said that, you know, you see a lot of like the figures and the one Xs and these closed robotics companies out there that are using proprietary AI models.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  And what Hugging Face wants to do is really build this kind of open platform of, you know, AI models that can power robotics. Like, they want to sell you a cheap robot that you can use at home as kind of like a dev kit. And then you can download these models from Hugging Face to power it. It's a really kind of Cool sounding idea, but it is sounds so like, who is going to really be doing this? But there's a lot of money in this space. I think it's a really big opportunity for Hugging Face.

• 10:43Anthony Ha?

  I mean, I'd say the slightly more cynical interpretation, which I don't necessarily fully buy into, but I've like tried to like almost like toggle between them is that, you know, I remember there was some reporting around Nvidia recently that essentially, yeah, like obviously there's so much demand for AI, but also so much money flooding into the space that like, in order to justify the level of investment and the level of valuations that we're seeing right now, like AI can't just be a kind of successful technology. It needs to be like the defining technology of our generation. And there's this sort of question of like, what are the consumer use cases going to be that really justify that level of excitement? And I, I think you could say that like,

• 11:27Anthony Ha?

  yes, there's an opportunity in robotics and there's also a certain sense of like, well, it's gotta be something. Let's, what could it be? Maybe robotics? Robots, those seem cool.

• 11:35Kirsten Korosec?

  Yeah, I think you're absolutely right on that because robotics, applying AI to robotics and applying AI to autonomous vehicles, which is kind of a form of robotics, certainly not humanoid, though, is, goes back to like justifying all the hype. And the funny thing is, is that, you know, autonomous vehicles went through its own hypey moment and the hype cycle, you know, back in 2017. But it wasn't, there was certainly talk about like deep neural networks and machine learning, but it didn't seem to link AI as closely. I think it was because people were fascinated by the physical

• 12:15Kirsten Korosec?

  piece, the car. And it feels like the humanoid robotics, same thing. Like they're very much, people are very much focused on the hardware piece of it. But now suddenly because of this moment where there's so much hype and interest in AI, it's like, ha ha, here we are. And so I just suspect so many more acquisitions and a lot more funding in the space as a result.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there's two, there's two things I want to say about this. Like, like, the first is that I agree with you guys. And I think that as a result of all the hype is that these, some of these companies like Figure and OneX are really starting to ship robots that are going into people's homes to like, be like helpers around your house, which is a crazy idea, but just something that's might becoming a reality soon. And I think that Hugging Face sees it's like kind of broader mission as like, we need to be the open platform that that peels back the curtain on all of these AI models and shows people like what's really going on there. And I think that it's a very strong positioning. But the second point I want to say is that there's not a great business model around it right now, as far as I can tell.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  I mean, it's much easier to sell someone access or sell someone a subscription to, you know, use their AI models or purchase a robot. I think that this robotics push from them gives them a way to, gives them a revenue stream because they have investors and, and they're very popular, but have a kind of shockingly ambiguous business model for, for how much love they have from the developer community. So I think this is an interesting push.

• 13:52Kirsten Korosec?

  Well, yeah, I'm curious to see what happens next, but it is time for a break. And when we come back, Max is going to weigh in again and catch us up on OpenAI's recent launches. And then we're going to get into one of my favorite topics, which is IPOs and specifically about Sigma.

• 14:16Anthony Ha?

  Every company today is looking for an edge. Better insights, faster decisions, greater resilience. But as AI drives new growth, it also creates new demands on energy and infrastructure. Schneider Electric is connecting energy, automation, and digital technologies to help organizations make smarter decisions and operate more efficiently. Because the future won't be shaped by AI alone, it will be shaped by energy and industrial intelligence. Schneider Electric, advancing energy tech.

• 14:43Kirsten Korosec?

  You know, over here at TechCrunch, we use Slack and I have to say that I have to turn off my notifications at a certain point in the night because all it is, is Max talking about AI news and it's usually OpenAI and it's like all hours of the night. Like honestly, are you sleeping and what the heck is going on? Especially this week, it seemed very busy.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  That's a great question and that's, that's all we're going to talk about on this segment is just my sleeping and Slack habits. But no, this week, frankly, the AI team at TechCrunch did not sleep much because OpenAI has been so busy with model launches. So on Monday, they launched this GPT-4.1 model, which is an improvement to their kind of traditional AI models. And then on Wednesday, I'm honestly losing track of the days here. But on Wednesday, they launched their 03 and 04 mini model, which is an update to their reasoning models. There's a lot of noise and model launches going on in the AI industry right now. So I mean, I think that the biggest thing that you can take away from this week

• 15:49Speaker 01

  was that, you know, OpenAI is continuing to kind of push forward what their AI models can do. But I think that there is, in the backdrop of this, we kind of know on the horizon, a couple of months out, that OpenAI is going to launch the big one, which is GPT-5. And they've, they've said that this is coming, they've confirmed it. They say it's going to kind of combine this kind of GPT-4.1 style model that responds instantly and this 03 model that takes time to think. And that's going to be this kind of model that knows when to think and when to just respond quickly. But in the meantime, we're kind of left with these pieces of these ideas around AI from, from them. And, and I think

• 16:32Speaker 01

  it's interesting to look at just like, there's, there's still a lot of problems with these things. And I mean, one of them is that they hallucinate a lot. Like 03, we, we looked into the 03 model and it has a hallucination rate that's twice as large as OpenAI's last reasoning model, 01. So there's still a lot we don't really know about these models. And at the same time, they're getting more capable. So it just kind of leaves us in a odd space right now.

• 16:58Anthony Ha?

  So, I mean, going back to something you mentioned earlier, because I think one of the things that I was sort of taken a little back by in the last few months is just, I thought I had a good handle on sort of like that the idea of GPT-5 is kind of the next big milestone, right? And then yet there have been these like oh three, oh four launches. And in fact, I mean, I think, you know, when, when I've written a little bit about some of the questions about what's going to happen, GPT-5 is, is OpenAI kind of having an issue with it. We've had comments from people who are like, I can't believe you guys are still focused on this, like, you know, oh, three is the future, like they've already like blown past all of this. So I mean, to what extent have the reasoning models sort of superseded, you know, that sort of traditional product nomenclature that that lineup like, do we, are we too focused on GPT-5?

• 17:42Anthony Ha?

  Or how does it all fit together?

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was just talking with a professor at Stanford about this exact question, like of, of whether reasoning models are just the future. And I think that they are becoming much more capable, but the truth is that I think when everyday people go to use chat GPT, they don't really want to think about, am I using the right model? There's this like really terrible huge model picker when you use chat GPT, where you can choose from like seven things. And like I, it's even hard for me who like covers this stuff all the time to know the minute differences between all of them. So I think the future is really just this GPT-5 kind of idea that OpenAI has laid out where it's like, go to chat GPT, ask a question, we will figure out the rest, we will figure out how to answer it.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  And that really does seem like the future for this stuff.

• 18:31Kirsten Korosec?

  I wanted to ask a question about, you mentioned earlier how one of the models actually has like a very high rate of hallucination. And why is that? Is it actually because there's this push for it to be more human-like and creative? And as a result, it's.

• 18:53Kirsten Korosec?

  Hallucinating more, is it like a path to actually getting to a better, more capable model? Or is it, ooh, this, this looks bad for OpenAI?

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that it's, I think you hit the nail on the head. Like, there is this idea that, you know, OpenAI's co-founder Greg Brockman said on a live stream yesterday that these models can help do science, like, very, you know, vague kind of term there, doing science, but, but he says they can help scientists. But the idea is that, like, to come up with a new hypothesis, to come up with a new idea, uh, you know, about the way the world works, you do need to say something that hasn't been said before, which is kind of a hallucination. So I think there is an idea among some that for AI models to get better at doing these really hard tasks and to be more helpful, it actually might be better for them to hallucinate a little bit.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  But of course, there's been other problems where, like, O3 will make up links that don't exist and try to send you to a website that's not real, or sometimes it'll think it used a tool to accomplish a task and it actually hasn't used it at all. So there's still a lot of problems here. I don't think that this is, some people were claiming that this was AGI. I think it's, you know, hard to see how this is like the final thing here. Like, it does still feel like we're waiting for one more thing. And that's, that's how the AI race has felt for a while.

• 20:17Anthony Ha?

  Well, can we talk a little bit about some more, slightly more speculative news about OpenAI, which is that there is also reports that they're developing an X-like social media platform? I'll just put cards on the table, but I cannot imagine using something like that. That sounds awful to me. Am I wrong?

• 20:35Speaker 01

  It's hard to see because, I mean, you see Meta, like, pumping AI into their social media platforms, and you see X, just like, the AI community on X is, is very vibrant, but the rest of the platform is kind of tough. And, and it's just like, is an OpenAI social media platform, actually, would that be worse than those options? I think that's my question. I don't know, Kirsten, do you still use X?

• 21:02Kirsten Korosec?

  Yes, uh, yes, it would be worse.

• 21:06Kirsten Korosec?

  I do enjoy, I do, I do appreciate the fact that you were being very diplomatic when you were saying a vibrant community and a little tough over there on X, but I guess TBD, but I think we've already seen what's happened with social media on a very broad scale and AI hasn't necessarily made it better. So I guess we'll see, but we do have one other thing to talk about and specifically it's about Tigma. It's a company that I actually don't cover, but I've been following them. They make collaborative software and web applications for designers and they filed confidentially their paperwork for an IPO. So we don't have the S1, which is one of my fave docs to look through because that's when you finally

• 21:49Kirsten Korosec?

  get to see if these companies were overstating, you know, their business and you finally get to see the risk factors. So we're, we're waiting on that. But what struck me, and I'm wondering if you all have the same thoughts. It's such a volatile market. The same goes back to like the whole SPAC thing with Kodiak. I was like, wow, now this is, this is the time you guys are doing it now. And it just got me thinking like, are they just plowing ahead because it could just get worse? I mean, why do an IPO right now? The market is very volatile.

• 22:26Anthony Ha?

  Well, so part of the context that some of our readers are probably familiar with is that, you know, a couple of years ago, Adobe was going to acquire Figma for $20 billion. That fell through, I think partly because of antitrust scrutiny, or maybe largely because of antitrust scrutiny. Since then, Figma has been valued at 12.5 billion, which is still like a very respectable number, but it's a lot less than 20 billion. And so you get the sense that, and I don't remember exactly the terms of the deal of, if Figma maybe got a little bit of hash because the deal fell through, but, but essentially like, That's not like a position of strength, right? And so you have to imagine that, that after that, they were, as much as they tried to put a brave face on it, they were kind of like, okay, that didn't work out. What are we going to do now?

• 23:09Anthony Ha?

  And so I think, and this is sort of how we were talking about the SPACs before, is that like, on the one hand, usually that's sort of a big moment for a company. That can be a moment of triumph. That's a moment of like, you know, a bunch of people like cashing out, getting rich. But sometimes it can also be a necessity because especially I think if you're not an AI startup right now, you sort of hit a level where the private funding sources aren't really there. And so if you want more funding, you gotta go public.

• 23:36Kirsten Korosec?

  Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, also, who else would buy Figma? I mean, Figma's got to be looking around and going, all right, to your point, probably not going to get a buyout. We want to source more capital. We, we want to grow. And it is, you know, IPO-ing is the exit that a lot of startups want to ultimately get to. To me, I just find the timing interesting because there was a lot of talk towards the end of last year about how 2025 would finally be the IPO year. And we saw Klarna and StubHub, you know, two potentially blockbuster tech IPOs humming along and then suddenly pausing those plans. So to me, the timing is, is curious and interesting.

• 24:18Kirsten Korosec?

  At, at the same time, I don't know if you've been watching the other stuff that Figma has been up to, but sending a cease and desist letters to the no-code AI startup lovable. So I'm like, what, what are you guys doing here?

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, they, Figma sent this letter to this startup that was also using the term dev mode, which I don't know about you guys, but I feel like I hear, hear everyone use the word dev mode. Like, it feels crazy like to say you own that term. But Figma has a trademark on it and they, they were successful in getting that trademark. So they're wielding it around right now. I mean, I think just to kind of also just close the loop on the IPO conversation, like it, it does seem like. This would be a really bad time to IPO. I've talked to some other sources who are, you know, involved in companies that are IPO candidates right now and they just, it just seems like this is not a good environment to IPO right now. So I'd be surprised if I saw

• 25:16Speaker 01

  that in the next month or two. But Figma, I mean, they're hot as ever. If anyone could do it, it might be them.

• 25:22Kirsten Korosec?

  Well, you just reminded me, we had an interview with Mark Goldberg. He recently started an early stage firm chemistry, but had spent like over a decade over at Index Ventures. And to your point about like waiting and seeing about IPOs, he had this great quote and he said, I think the people holding their breath for the fintech IPOs this year are going to be blue in the face. And so I'm wondering, first of all, let's see if Figma follows through. Granted, they're not fintech, but let's also see if a Figma pulls back at all. And if any of the fintech companies out there decide to do an IPO as well. Like, I'm very skeptical that anyone is going to do

• 26:06Kirsten Korosec?

  anything in the next two months. But I could be wrong. Anthony's nodding his head, maybe agreeing with me. I'm not sure.

• 26:13Anthony Ha?

  I would say, yeah, I'm sort of skeptical. I mean, I think one thing I'm curious about definitely is like, you were talking, Kirsten, about the costs of an IPO and to what extent are those sort of towards the end of the process? Like, in my head, and this could be total BS, but like, is that, yeah, if you want to just sort of take the initial first steps, kind of like file a confidential S1, see if people or investors are interested, like, you're not necessarily making a big commitment yet. And so we could sort of, there's still a lot of room for either for this to go wrong or for Figma to be like, no, never mind, we're not interested. I think the other thing that interests me about this is, I mean, like, everything, right? There's a lot of questions about how AI is going to transform this market. And I think design, I imagine, is one of those areas where it's very easy to say, oh, we'll

• 26:58Anthony Ha?

  just sort of automate this with AI and people can just prompt some, you know, any, any model and get a great design. I don't think that's true. And so I could, I think Figma, I imagine, is still going to be a really essential tool, but I can imagine some on Wall Street being like, well, isn't this just going to like be replaced by, you know, chat GPT prompts anyway?

• 27:18Kirsten Korosec?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's what Figma is going to have to do is is show the value of what it's offering here. And I'll be curious to see if any language they use between now and if and when they really do file S1, if they sprinkle some AI fairy dust on I'm sure they will. On any of that. All right. Well, thank you for that prediction. We will look for it. We have to wrap up, but thanks so much, Anthony and Max, for joining me today. And Equity will be back next week. Until then, you can find Equity under the handle at Equity Pod on X and Threads.

• 27:59Rebecca Bellan?

  Equity is produced by Teresa Loconsolo with editing by Kel. We'd also like to thank TechCrunch's audience development team. Thank you so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time.