Anthony Mackie: Captain America takes us behind the scenes from New Orleans to Hollywood icon, challenges faced by black actors, being mentored by Denzel Washington, Don Cheadle love, breakout roles, raising young men today and future of film

“I don't think it's a question of convincing people or convincing the world. My biggest hurdle was convincing myself.” Anthony Mackie on role of Captain America Pivot Family, We are back in New Orleans like we never left! Sitting with NOLA’s hometown hero who’s Hollywood’s new Captain America, Anthony Mackie, is sharing his rise to stardom in the film industry and taking us through how it all started and the challenges faced along the way. This open-book conversation between the guys is hilarious, riveting and full of energy and insight as we learn the real story behind a young black man who grew up in Louisiana with big screen aspirations and wasn’t afraid to be different to pursue his dreams. Anthony’s message about not just making it to the top but sustaining both status and respect in the industry may be unconventional as he tells the guys that success is given and not earned and that we’ve been lying to our youth by telling them differently. He explains how life is pushing past doubt, embracing opportunities, and finding the strength to carry the weight of something bigger than yourself while relying on relationships to find the next best thing. Being Black has yielded him certain experiences as well as taught him that having one talent or one dimension isn’t enough to stay successful but needing an arsenal is what it takes. He talks about the differences between working actors and celebrities, including today’s new wave of names and how the landscape has changed with social media. Anthony admits he never thought he’d be given the role of Captain America but gets vulnerable about the self-doubt he had to overcome... not convincing the world he could do it but convincing himself he was worthy of the role and what it means to represent the character in a new era. Reflecting on his New Orleans upbringing, Anthony tells Ryan, Channing and Fred how guys from “the hood don’t do theater” but he found his calling early on through his elementary teacher who recognized his potential and helped him discover New Orleans Center for Creative Arts (NOCCA) which gave him a sense of belonging and further inspired his acting career. Anthony shares stories and scenes that shaped him including what his rap battle with Eminem in 8 Mile truly signified, how he landed his role in Hurt Locker, how Don Cheadle inspired his craft and how having Denzel Washington as a mentor guided his career path by watching Denzel never be too big to do the little things that give passion purpose. Channing asks his Channing questions as he tells Captain America he’s blown him away with a lot of his films but he didn’t love his character portrayal of 2pac and also asks what led him to being ok playing a gay man. Beyond the big screen, Anthony opens up about losing his mother and best friend as a teenager which was a dark time that ultimately pivoted him down a path to find light again and take acting more seriously. He also discusses the importance of masculinity, raising his four sons to be responsible men and instilling strong family values despite being divorced from their mother. This episode is more than just Hollywood stories and laughs. It’s about resilience, identity, and purpose. Anthony Mackie isn't just a mega star, he's a trailblazer in our time and proof that true leadership comes from honoring the past while inspiring the future. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  What's up, Black? How you doing?

• 0:31Ryan Clark?

  My dog.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  What's up, Rich, man?

• 0:33Ryan Clark?

  What up with it?

• 0:34Speaker 01

  I'm still trying to catch up from last night.

• 0:35Channing Crowder?

  Rich, man. Hey, I'm not talking about...

• 0:39Speaker 01

  Look.

• 0:39Channing Crowder?

  My pockets are like... I don't know if you see, I count pockets.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Look, I'm like, don't call me King. Call me Rich, motherfucker.

• 0:44Channing Crowder?

  I count pockets now.

• 0:47Fred Taylor?

  See, I gotta wear this shirt around and he gonna count some pockets.

• 0:49Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I count pockets.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  You better believe it, bro. You better believe it.

• 0:53Channing Crowder?

  I'm sure about to follow you to the car.

• 0:56Ryan Clark?

  Hey, you heard what he just said. Don't nobody mess with him.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Don't nobody mess with me, bro.

• 1:00Ryan Clark?

  That man walked straight down the street. Captain America walked down the street.

• 1:03Channing Crowder?

  Why I still walk down the street? I was like, there's no way this man walking down the street with one dude. You made it like that.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, ain't nobody... They look at me and they go, nah, nah, I'ma just go ahead. I'm like, yeah, you go ahead.

• 1:17Ryan Clark?

  They be like, that's Sam Wilson.

• 1:40Ryan Clark?

  Welcome to the Pivot, Anthony Mackie. Home team, man. Thank you so much. This is Channing Crowder. This is Fred Taylor.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Thank you all for making it happen today, man.

• 1:47Ryan Clark?

  Man, no, thank you, man. Ryan Clark, Pivot fam. Thank you for pivoting with us. Man, this is exciting for me. I remember years ago, man, we on the same flight from here to LA.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57Ryan Clark?

  Got an opportunity to talk, chop it up. So get an opportunity to do this. It's huge. Two boys from the 504.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 2:03Ryan Clark?

  That ain't, that ain't done too bad.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Right, 100%. Especially making it out of here at that time. Because at that time, it was completely, it wasn't all this. Like, you go to the parades to get shot. You didn't go to catch bees. So it was, you know, it was just a different time, a different day and age, man. And to see it now, what the city has become, what the city's doing, the lack of economical thriving. But if you look at it, you know, we had Super Bowl, we had Mardi Gras, we had the holidays back to back to back. So now, everybody got a little money. So now, the city's just bustling, you know? But come April, everybody gonna be like, dang, this still New Orleans. Then they gonna back, go back to robbing, somebody gonna be in your house.

• 2:43Ryan Clark?

  I'm from the West Bank, right?

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Right. I forgive you for that.

• 2:45Ryan Clark?

  I know, hey, you know. I'm imperfect.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 2:49Ryan Clark?

  But when we were growing up, bro, if you heard somebody went to NOKA, it's like, oh, that kid's different.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:54Ryan Clark?

  Right, that kid was gifted, or special, or understood the arts in a way the rest of us that was just trying to play football ain't know.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:02Ryan Clark?

  Tell me how you take a kid from the 7th ward though, bro, and he adjusts and adapts to Juilliard.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  It was the process, dude. Like, it used to be the schools here had programs for kids. So you could learn arts, you could learn math, you can learn science, you can learn music at the school. So in 3rd grade, they wanted to put me on Ritalin. And my mom was like, y'all ain't putting my baby on them gateway drugs. I didn't know what a gateway, I didn't know what it... I was like, I don't wanna do drugs, I don't wanna do drugs, right? Cause this was the time of dare, and like, all that shit, like, coming out of Reaganomics. And I was like, mama, I don't wanna be a drug addict, right? So, this lady, Sandra Anderson Richards, she was a teacher here in New Orleans. And I auditioned for the Talented Theatre Program because she asked me to. And, you know, we had a meeting with the principal,

• 3:52Speaker 01

  and our principal was so racist, dude, this is the most racist woman I've ever met in my life. And she wanted to put me in special ed, and put me on Ritalin, like, just put me in a corner. And Ms. Richards was like, no, his grades are good, he's just distracted and he's bored. Like, we need to focus in, we need to find a way to teach him in a creative way. So I auditioned for this program, got in. So every day after school, I would go with her and do theater and all this other shit that was so cool, that I would sit in class, do all my work, and I'm like, yo, I'm ready to go, I'm ready to go, I'm ready to go, cause if I don't finish my work, I can't go to theater. So she really became a disciplinarian for me all the way up until 9th grade, right?

• 4:35Speaker 01

  And then in 9th grade, we do a speech and debate competition at 35, and I won. Doing a Sunday Morning Prophecy by Langston Hughes. And I met this woman named Linda Cook. Linda Cook was like, you know, you should audition for NOKA. Matter of fact, I'm gonna make you audition for NOKA. And I was like, oh shit, okay. Never heard of NOKA, never knew anything about it. Went up to NOKA, right up here. And I'm from, you know, Gentilly, I'm from the other side of the city. So, NOKA was all the way up here in the hook of the river. So my mom put me in a car, and you know, this is the white side of town. So, you don't go up there. You know, they don't want you in their neighborhoods. So my mom's like, I don't know if you're gonna be able to come up here every day. I was like, yeah, that'd be good, that'd be good. So, we go up to NOKA, audition. I couldn't find my way out of uptown.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  So I walked. It was about seven miles, bro. By the time I got home, it was like nine o'clock. And my mom was like, you dumbass, why you didn't take the bus? I was like, I didn't know how to take the bus. I didn't know where I was at, right? So I made it all the way home. Found out the next week that I got into NOKA. And the crazy thing about NOKA was, as weird or as obtuse as those kids were, it was the first place I felt like I belonged. It was the first time I was sitting around like black kids who come from diverse backgrounds, white kids who come from money, who live uptown. You know, there was this white kid in my class. His summer between junior year and senior year, he backpacked across Europe. I'm like, so you just took a bag of clothes and walked across Europe?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  He's like, yeah, my parents wanted me to experience my cultural significance and my history. What? So, hearing this shit, like it just really opened my mind to like outside of New Orleans and not wanting to be here. Summer between my sophomore year and my junior year, I auditioned for North Carolina School of the Arts, got in and went for the summer session. And that's where it clicked. Once I got there and I saw kids who were doing it professionally, making money, like thriving, I was like, oh, this is a, this is an artist's community. Like, I'm not weird here, this is the norm. You know what I mean? So, once that started, it really became a thing of like me figuring out where I fit in. So, I graduated summer school, came back here for my junior year.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Then I was like, yo, I'm out. Went to North Carolina for my senior year. Finished high school there. Gosh. Because then, I'm a fucking straight A student. Like, so much so, like, you know, I'm in college. That's literally the University of North Carolina is where I finished high school. And that was because I had great teachers. Like, my teachers at NOKA were amazing. And they displaced the idea of, you know, white people for me. Because for me, white people ain't like black people. Because these white people ain't like black people. Like, New Orleans, stop at Canal Street and start up at Covington. Yeah. There's nothing in between. They don't go to Gentilly. They don't go to the East. They don't go to the Night War. They don't do that. So, you have two different cities. You know? Oh, I know.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  So, once they dispelled the idea of all white people being racist, the sky was the limit.

• 7:39Channing Crowder?

  Big dog, you being a prodigy, like, you having that, whatever it was, got you at it. Like you saying, now you got to sneak into those other, those other places. You got to, you got to be comfortable in those platforms and all. You went to Juilliard and all, like, that's something that New Orleans doesn't do.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it's funny, because, like, we have a pretty substantial amount of kids who went to Juilliard. Like, you think Wendell Pierce, Wynton Marsalis, Irvin Mayfield, basically all the Marselises. You know, you have Harry Connick, you have all these people from here, but they were musicians. Yup. Like, you know, but you look at all the actors that came out of New Orleans. I mean, Carl Weathers is from the Night War. You know what I mean? Like, when I saw Action Jackson, I was like, that dude from the war. You know what I mean? It's like, there was so much, one of the greatest inspirations in my life. I was 13 years old. Wendell Pierce came to my high school. And I'll never, dude, he pulled up in a black Porsche. I was like, yo. My first time seeing a car that wasn't like a Buick. Right.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  He get out in an all-white linen suit with a white linen hat. I was like, this motherfucker's rich. Right? He come in school, and I had never seen a black dude look cool like that. And he start telling us about his experience going to Juilliard, moving to New York, this and that. I went up to him at 13. I was like, I'm gonna do exactly what you did. He was like, alright, young man, good luck. I was like, yeah, yeah, you gonna see. So, every step of the way, since I was 13 years old, I was on Wendell Pierce heels. Always, always. I would always read about him. I was always, because we both from Gentilly. I would always talk to him, I would always hear from him. And then, the first day I got to New York, I'm sitting drinking a beer with my brother, and Wynton Marsalis walks by. So, I'm like, yo, Wynton, I'm a homeboy, I'm from the, I'm from the boot. And he's like, oh, young. Here, here go my number, anything you need, call me.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  I'm like, oh shit. So I had the two biggest dudes from the city, yeah, on my back. You know what I mean? And then I get to school and Urban Mayfield was there. So I'm like, yo, Erv, bro, you at Juilliard? He's like, yeah, I don't know how long I'm gonna be doing this shit though. I'm like, damn, boy, you are famous.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like, you so talented, you like, nah, they ain't got nothing for me at this school. And literally the next year, he left and became one of the biggest musicians in the world. So it's like, there's so much culture and art in this, in this city. Like, I always laugh, people always ask me why I live in New Orleans. I'm like, cause New Orleans is the only place you can be sitting on your couch and hear a dude walking down the street practicing their trombone.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  No other city in the world, you hear a dude walking down the street like, that C flat ain't working.

• 10:13Channing Crowder?

  You talking about at your age, walking up to them famous dudes and really asking them questions, really getting their number? That's not normal, a lot of people would be intimidated by that.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Oh, no, it was more of a thing of, of awe, more of a thing of appreciation. Especially when it came to Wynton and Wendell. Like, those are people who, there's a certain club, I say, there's a certain distinction. Like, when you meet somebody and it's like, yo, I just graduated from North Carolina School of the Arts. They're like, oh, you not bullshitting, what you doing in New York? Well, I go to Juilliard. Oh, you not bullshitting? You know what I mean? Now, if you just here fucking around and say, I wanna be an actor and you're in a Popeyes commercial, that's different. You know, you know what I mean?

• 10:54Channing Crowder?

  Now, you like every hostess in New York.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. So, it's just, it's different, dude, once they see you ain't bullshitting and you really focusing on your craft. Like, I was playing basketball with Wynton Marcellus. Bad jump shot, like, just, for some reason, a great basketball player. Right? And this motherfucker, he was like, look, to be is to study. He was like, you here studying Shakespeare, Ibsen, Chekhov. He was like, all them motherfuckers know is they neighborhood. So they can play one role really well, cause that's all they got in their catalog. You know what I mean? It's like if you're a football player, you got speed, but you don't know how to use your hands. You don't know how to tackle. But you fast as fuck. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, you need an arsenal of things, especially as a black dude.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  You gotta be able to do everything. So when that call comes, you can hang with whoever you need to hang with, you know? So when Wendell gave me that knowledge, because it was just like knowing him, like this dude is the best jazz musician in the world, but also can come down here and do like a street second line. You know what I mean? But also can play, like, one of my favorite songs is the Carnival de Venice. This dude played a song with an orchestra that was written for two trumpets. By itself. By itself. Yep. So if you can do that, who's gonna tell you what you can't do?

• 12:16Fred Taylor?

  You're so dynamic and multifaceted, right? You go from Papa Doc, Clarence, live at home with his parents, and all that good shit.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Then with the Claret Book.

• 12:27Fred Taylor?

  That's a vibe at school, that's right.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Hey, I'll tell you this, Google Cranbrook. That shit is not a school. Bruh, I took a drive past, because that wasn't in the movie. Right. You know what I mean? Like, we're doing the movie, and Eminem is just such a brilliant dude. We're on set one day, and he's like, yo, it don't make sense that we beefing. I was like, right? He was like, I need something, like, on you. So we're talking. We talked for like two hours, like chilling. I'm like, alright, man, I'll see you later. I go to the casino. The next day, we're shooting a battle scene. And that's why I'm standing there like, you're talking about me. You're not talking about Clarence.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  That has nothing to do with the character. You're an asshole, Eminem. Hey, is that why you holding him out like this? Right.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  I'm like, I will fight this motherfucker. I'm like, yes, my parents are still married. Ooh, chill fuck.

• 13:22Fred Taylor?

  See, but that's the craziest thing, cuz you got entertainment, right? And then you got the art of storytelling, and he's just simply amazing. But for you to play that character, obviously to play Tupac, the Hurt Locker, you're dancing, and now you're Captain America.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:37Fred Taylor?

  Like, you got real superpowers. We grew up on superheroes. Like, we don't see, like, a black superhero.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:46Fred Taylor?

  Like, did it actually hit you that you are really fucking Captain America? Like, that's crazy, bruh.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Me and my boy was having this conversation yesterday, and it's been weighing on my mind and my heart, because it hasn't.

• 13:59Fred Taylor?

  It's crazy.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  And I'm not sure why. Like, I don't know what it is. Like, the idea of walking down the street by myself isn't something that's become an oddity, or an idea of something I shouldn't or can't do anymore. The idea of coming to my favorite restaurant isn't an idea of something I can't or shouldn't do anymore. I've been in the business 24 years, right? And I've seen people go from nothing to the biggest stars in the world. I've seen people go from one role to winning Academy Awards and doing all this shit. And what I realized yesterday, thinking about it, we're lying to our kids, dawg. And I think that's a big problem in our community.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  We tell our kids that, and this is fresh on my heart, like, I literally just came to this conclusion last night, we tell our kids if they do right, and they make the good grades, and they go to the programs, and they will become successful. If you work hard enough, your work will be paid off, and that's not true. Success is given. It's not earned. Cuz you can be the most brilliant motherfucker if one person don't tap you, each one of y'all. There were people who could hit harder, who could catch better, who could run faster, but somebody said, "You." You're the one. And the other 50 behind you fell off. You know what I mean?

• 15:25Speaker 01

  And because of that, I don't know what that, what that emotion or that feeling is, is the scary thing. Cuz I went to all the programs, I've done Broadway, I've done Off-Broadway, I've been in the business 24 years, I've been in two Academy Award films, I've done independent films, I've done major motion pictures, now I'm Captain America.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  So now what? I should be the lead of the next Spike Lee movie. I should be starring opposite Denzel. Because that's what happened with everybody else.

• 15:56Channing Crowder?

  So to that thought process, why are you the one? It's the craziest thing, man. He brought up Tupac. I don't think you did a great job of being Tupac.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  That's fair.

• 16:05Channing Crowder?

  I tell you, because you were younger, it was years ago.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Right, that's fair.

• 16:08Channing Crowder?

  So why are you the one? Even speaking on that, why are you the one that? I don't know, chosen to be that dude, but, bruh, you that dude.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Diligence. Prime example, when I went up to New York to audition for Juilliard, it was a consortium audition. So it was like 100 schools in New York just auditioning kids who want to go to school for theater. They told you prepare two monologues, a contemporary, a classical, a comedic, and a serious monologue, and a two-minute clip of a song. So to me, I prepare 15 monologues and four songs.

• 16:42Channing Crowder?

  Dang.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  So when I walk into my audition, I'm ready. You know what I mean? So everybody else do their two monologues, and they're like, oh, that didn't go well. They asked me if I had something else, and I was like, no. And my, my goal, my realization, my teacher told me, always get them to ask you more. Because once they start asking you, that means they're interested. Once they start talking to you, they didn't say, goodbye, have a good day. Every audition I've been in, I do the audition, that's when it's like, where you from? What you doing? Now I know you're interested.

• 17:15Channing Crowder?

  Right.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like, um, my Eight Mile audition. Dude, I never even read for the director. I went into the room, I had my sides, I was ready. It was Curtis Hansen, God rest his soul, Molly Finn was the casting director, God rest her soul, and I had done nothing. She saw me in a play about Tupac called Up Against the Wind off Broadway, which Tupac's mother and sister came to and loved.

• 17:42Channing Crowder?

  I still don't, I still don't like how you play Pac.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  So, so I do the play. Molly Finn sees the play. She's like, I want you to come in and audition for Curtis for this movie that we're doing. I'm like, bet. So I go in, like, two weeks later, audition. So Curtis Hansen had just released a movie called Wonder Boys with Tobey Maguire, right? I was a Tobey Maguire fan at the time. So I walk in, I'm like, yo, Kurt, I just need to ask you a question, bro. I'm like, Wonder Boys was like an ode to Hitchcock. He's like, what do you mean? I said, the moving formats in the background, the thought process of the character being emulated in the scene and the movements behind him. I'm like, were you, like, was that a conscious decision? And he looks at me, he's like, stop the camera. Who told you that?

• 18:29Speaker 01

  I was like, nobody. I just see it. Like, when I watch a Hitchcock movie, when I watch The Lands of the Slaughter, every time a certain woman is on screen, you have birds of prey. Other women, you have doves and, like, pheasants or fowls. So one of them is the aggressor, one of them is the prey. You know what I mean? So we go back and forth, and we talk for, like, 45 minutes about this movie and about Hitchcock. Two weeks later, I get a call, and it's Curtis. He goes, yo, Mackay Pfeiffer decided to do the movie, so he's gonna be in that role, but there's a smaller role. I said, I'm in. He's like, but you have to? I'm in. I'm like, I get to hang with you on set? I'm in. So every day on set, I'm next to Curtis Hansen. Every day on set, he's coming to me, showing me his shot list, showing me all the stuff, because now we have that connection.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Now I got him talking. So, a lot of people don't know Papa Duck was three scenes and four lines. I was supposed to be there a week. After that week, he would say, you have something else to do? I was like, nah. He made a schedule list, run a picture, and he added all those scenes for that character.

• 19:31Ryan Clark?

  Really?

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. That was never in the script.

• 19:34Ryan Clark?

  I love listening to you talk, because you're like all my homeboys.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:38Ryan Clark?

  Right? Like, we're just, we're just all the same.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:40Ryan Clark?

  And I listened to what you said, though, about we are doing our kids a disservice. We're lying to our kids. Right? I would always say that people are lying to their kids when they tell them they can be whatever they want to be. Because you actually can't be whatever you want to be. Because some things you don't have the potential to be.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 19:58Ryan Clark?

  Right? And the thing that I got a lot growing up was, you have to be twice as good. You have to be twice as smart. You have to work twice as hard. You have to know twice as much. That was your life.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:09Ryan Clark?

  Right? You were, yeah, I was at Eastern, but I'mma go to NOKA. I was at NOKA, but I'mma go to North Carolina. I'm in North Carolina, now I'mma go to Juilliard. You did all of those things.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:19Ryan Clark?

  But there's still a proving ground for you that's gonna be a different proving ground for someone of a different skin color that would've done the exact same things

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:27Ryan Clark?

  that you've done. But then you are now Captain America.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 20:32Ryan Clark?

  What's more difficult? Convincing people that you are the correct replacement for one of Marvel Universe's truly just standout franchise faces, Chris Evans?

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:47Ryan Clark?

  Or convincing the world that Captain America can be black?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  I don't think it's a question of convincing people or convincing the world. My biggest hurdle was convincing myself. When you're given a huge opportunity like that, you have to take into consideration the possibility that you might fail. You might get out there and lay an egg. So for me, I knew if I got the role, if they decide, because I never thought they was gonna give me Captain America. We had a perfectly good Captain America in the role, doing a great job. Like, you know what I mean? So why, why, why me? You know? And that was one of the hardest parts. I never saw it happening, so when it happened, I was in shock. But then I got afraid.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  So then, I had to lean on those teachers and those people around me who got me to that point. It was hard because I never figured out, and I still haven't figured out, what is there to convince people of? And that's why I say we're doing our kids a disservice. Like, I went to all those programs. I did all those movies. Everybody knows my resume. So who the fuck are you to question if I can do this? If you go to a hospital and the doctor has 100 successful surgeries and you're going in for that surgery, what you gonna say? I don't know if you can do this one, bro. You might, you know, your hand looking a little shaky. No, I'm a professional. I'm a master of my craft. I put in, literally, I did the math. I put in 10,750 hours of training before I had a job.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  So if you ask, you know, anybody, that, you know, that makes you, that makes you a master of your craft.

• 22:26Ryan Clark?

  Why you ain't take the serum?

• 22:29Ryan Clark?

  Bro, I text you as soon as I walked out the movie. I was like, Harrison Ford was kicking your ass.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  He threw that little thing, that nigga slapped that little thing. He said, uh-oh.

• 22:42Ryan Clark?

  You know the stuff on Instagram, the videos? Where like, the little people would be throwing the javelin? And then it would be like a toothpick that gets stuck? That's what he looked like at the end, fighting Harrison Ford.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Harrison, 92 years old, slapped that little shit out there.

• 22:57Ryan Clark?

  But for, it's like, you know, like...

• 22:59Speaker 00

  College football is back. So Hilton called to me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Wanna make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey? Oh, that smells lucky. Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition. Even a marching band wake up call at 5:55 and 55 seconds. Hit it! When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay.

• 23:29Ryan Clark?

  In following your career, though, I've seen you talk about things that Morgan Freeman has told you, things that Samuel L. Jackson has shared with you. You know, like you said, you've been in these movies, whether it's, you know, Million Dollar Baby, you've been in Hurt Locker, all of these things that people have won awards in, and movies that have won awards. What's something that you learned through art, through making films, through what you do for a career or a living, that's truly stuck with you?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  You know, it's interesting. Like, you look at cats, and I feel like, in order to get better, you have to work at your craft. You know what I mean? Like, if you're not acting, you're not gonna become a good actor. And you see cats who get famous, and all of a sudden, they selling watches and duty free. And they so into selling watches, they ain't acting no more. You see a dude do a movie, then all of a sudden, he has an Instagram following. So, he's so famous on Instagram, he ain't doing movies no more. He ain't doing theater no more. Like, I think it says a lot, you know? Denzel's an interesting cat to me. And I've always watched him from afar and kind of, not tried to emulate, but pay attention to his career and his choices.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  And it's informed me a lot. And when you look at it, it poses a lot of questions. But Denzel is on Broadway right now doing Othello.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Denzel's working. You know what I mean? Like, at one point, Denzel was on, and this was the most amazing point of my career. James Earl Jones was on 48th Street doing On Golden Pond. I was on 46th Street doing McReel. And Denzel was on 44th Street doing Julius Caesar. So at the end of my show, I would go out and go up to 48th Street and literally sneak in the back door and watch the end of James Earl Jones on Golden Pond. Then I'd come down 6th Avenue, go to 44th Street, and I'd see Denzel finish his play. And then he'd come out there, and everybody in the audience would come outside, a thousand people outside and stand there. And line up. And he'd come out the stage door, and he'd sign every program.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Every single program. Right? Of all the people who came to the show. So one day I had the opportunity to meet him, I was like, "Yo." I was like, "You ain't tired of that?" He goes, "I used to pick up garbage." Like, he was a real-life garbage man. He said, "If I have to sign programs to never pick up garbage again, I'm gonna sign these motherfucking programs." And that was, that blew my mind. That was, that really put everything into perspective for me. It gets to a point to where the student is now the pupil.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  So somebody coming for your job, and I think that's where it gets tricky. Like, now I call and I'm like, "What's up, man? You got some time?" "Nah, nah, I'm busy." "Damn, damn."

• 26:25Ryan Clark?

  Hey, he, he, he, he, I mean. He did say, though, when they were doing all the Gladiator stuff, he said you learn to act on stage. On Broadway. He said he didn't learn to act through film. And like, you've gotten opportunities to do those things too.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:41Ryan Clark?

  And continue to grow.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Now, stage is a, is a dangerous beast, dude. It's a, it's addictive. Because, literally, you get the same show, same blocking, same script, every day. So now, you gotta be conscious enough and present enough to be able to make the tweaks in real time to affect the audience. And you gotta be able to listen to the audience, to where some audience is gonna laugh at every joke, some audience is gonna be quiet. You got the old people that come to theater just to sleep. You do, yo, real rap, you do Shakespeare. You have these fucking old people that come there with the script and they watch the play like this.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  So it's like a read-along to these moments. So if you get locked into that, you could get thrown off. Right. So you have to be able to, and for all intents and purposes, read the room. You have to be able to figure out what's going on around you and how does that play? Because that's the most important thing. It's tennis, it's a relationship between you and the audience. And once you get on set, it's like, it's the same thing. It's the fourth wall, the camera's the fourth wall. So I'm talking to you, we playing tennis. Now, if you're a shitty actor, which most of them are, you keep dropping the fucking ball, now I'm gonna have to take you over.

• 27:57Channing Crowder?

  Do you have to pick them up? Now, I don't gotta call nobody out, but if you had to pick people up? You can say names if you want to. I enjoy it, but like, if you had to pick people up? Because I, bro, I've seen all your movies and I'm like, oh, this nigga carrying this shit.

• 28:14Channing Crowder?

  But do you have to pick people up? Like, even from, I'll say even from Denzel maturing candidate, like, you work with some bad people. Like, do you ever, do you ever feel like the co-star when you're with them dogs?

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Now, I do. Like, there's a, there's a big reason why I fought for and became an executive producer on Captain America. Because when I'm on set, I have to make sure you're good. So I come to you before and be like, yo, you wanna run lines? Yo, this scene is about this, so you should do, this is without the director. You should do this and we should do that. I'm gonna give you this moment, so sit in that moment. All right, bet. All right, so what you doing? We need to do this, this, this, this, this, boom. So by the time they say, "Action," we're ready. And we haven't even met with the director yet. Like, when we were doing Avengers, like, Robert Downey Jr. was on set, they would go in his trailer, hour and a half to two hours before ever rolling film. And he would sit there with the script and be like, this don't work, this don't work, this worked, rewrite this, do that, do that.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  So we're all sitting there, like, waiting. And I was like, wow, he... He really has the ability to do that. So when I saw that, I was like, that makes sense. That script has to work for his character to work. And he don't, nobody know the character better than him. You know, so there's a lot of times where it's not so much you lift other actors up, but you make sure they play to your strengths.

• 29:35Channing Crowder?

  Bro, you work with all, you bring up names that just like, you say them so casually like, "Yeah, my homeboy Denzel, oh darn, too, he did this." Like, how you talk about it? But Freddie, that's my homeboy 20 years. But I was like, what he did on the field like you, like this man's six, you know, 6'1", 240, running a 4.2. Like, you would respect that.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:57Channing Crowder?

  To that point, like, who's them dudes that like, you bring up Cheadle, Denzel, like them people that's like, I can't. Junior say I was one for me. You remember Junior?

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:10Channing Crowder?

  I played with Junior and I watched him, my rookie year, I watched Junior play linebacker. And I told my coach, I was like, "I'll never be as good as that." I was like, "He just does things I can't do." Like, who's them dudes that you just look at like, "Oh."

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Denzel is, I mean, the...

• 30:25Channing Crowder?

  He's the goat.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  He's the goat. And he fucked it up for everybody. That's why you have so many bad actors is because of Denzel. Because he makes it look so easy. Motherfuckers watch it and be like, "Oh, I can do that." No, you can't. He's just that good.

• 30:39Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  He's that good that it looks effortless. So when Deion Sanders comes out and blazes down the field, that don't mean you can run that. You can work your entire life. You can eat right, you can get a trainer, you can do jump squats out your ass. You will never be able to compete with.

• 30:54Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  And that's, that's Denzel. But it's interesting now because the category of acting has changed. You know what I mean? Like, Hollywood don't make stars anymore. Think about it. When we were kids, you had Schwarzenegger, Stallone, Tom Cruise, Denzel, Morgan Freeman. You had Wesley Snipes. Pacino De Niro. Pacino De Niro. I mean, you can name, and I'm not even talking about the women. You can name 50 dudes who were making 10 to 20 million dollars a movie. Now...

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Who's our De Niro?

• 31:30Channing Crowder?

  You Captain America.

• 31:33Channing Crowder?

  You are Captain America.

• 31:35Fred Taylor?

  How much of that do you think social media influenced?

• 31:38Speaker 01

  I think, great question. I think social media is a big part of it, but also I think a big part of it is just pay.

• 31:44Fred Taylor?

  Okay.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Like, there's nobody out there, like, busting up making ten million dollars a movie. Like, it's just not happening anymore. But ticket prices are going up.

• 31:53Fred Taylor?

  Right.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  It's twenty-five dollars to go to the movies.

• 31:55Channing Crowder?

  Yep.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Whereas when we were young, it was eight dollars. They were making twenty million a movie. Now we're making five to seven. So, there's a huge disparity. Where's that extra money going? So, it's really interesting, when you look at it, if you don't make huge stars, you can pay them less. So that's why every two years, you have some twenty-one and twenty-five-year-old white boy pop up. And he does, he has a five-year run. Next thing you know, he's in a State Farm commercial, and that's it. Then he does a movie with Anne Hathaway, and that's it. And then they get a new one. You know what I mean? Like, with black dudes, it's the exact same thing. In twenty-five years, I've seen the gauntlet, and I'm the only one still here.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  When I came in the game, it was Mackay Pfeiffer, Omar Epps, Mos Def. Those were the big dogs. Right? Then, it went to Mos Def, Derek Luke, Rob Brown, then throw in your random rapper. Then it went to Michael B. Jordan, Jonathan Majors, Dampson Idris. I've seen three generations come and go. And that's what's scary about it. You see the motherfuckers come and get high. And then all of a sudden, poof. And it's like, yo, you have no staying power. You have no, because you're not diversifying your portfolio. If all you're investing in is Walmart, and Walmart has a bad week, you're fucked.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  So you gotta be able to do all the other shit. And that's what I always tell young actors. The question is whether you want to be a working actor or a celebrity. If you want to be a celebrity, go to LA and be a fucking celebrity. Date a Kardashian, have a great time. You know what I'm saying?

• 33:35Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  But if you want...

• 33:43Speaker 01

  But if you want to be a working actor, that's a different thing. When I did Half Nelson, Ryan Gosling got nominated for an Oscar. I got paid $65 a day to do that movie.

• 33:52Ryan Clark?

  Damn.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  When I did Hurt Locker, I was doing a movie in North Carolina called, I ain't gonna even call it, because the director was trash and the movie was trash. And he never directed again because he was trash. The movie was called Bolden. You can look him up. He was fucking trash.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  He was trash. And I was saying it to his face.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  So, so I was doing Bolden. Bolden went over. So I had to drop out of Hurt Locker. They went to another actor, offered him the same $55,000 to do Hurt Locker. He said, "No, it wasn't enough money." They came back to me and they were like, "Look, we'll hold the movie for a week, but you gotta get on a plane the day you wrap." I said, "Bet." I wrapped that night. 7:00 a.m. that morning, I was on a flight to Amon Jordan.

• 34:39Ryan Clark?

  Wow.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  And then Hurt Locker in 2009 became Hurt Locker. But I did that because he decided it wasn't enough money.

• 34:47Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Like, my dad told me only hoes work for money. If you love it, you never work a day in your life. The money gonna come.

• 34:55Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  So, fuck. When I was a kid, $55,000 more money I thought I ever make in my life. Even my daddy was like, "Boy, they paying you $55,000?" "Boy, that's so New Orleans." "Hey, that is so New Orleans." My dad was like, "Shit, I'm gonna get a new truck."

• 35:11Ryan Clark?

  You talk about sort of that gauntlet of people. It reminds me of Jay's song, "Every Day a Star is Born."

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:18Ryan Clark?

  Right? With Star is Born, in that song, he talks about the different phases. He's talking about like 50, DMX.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:24Ryan Clark?

  Eminem. He talks about Ja Rule, Lil Wayne. He talks about all these people who had these spells and these runs. And he's like, "But I'm still here."

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:32Ryan Clark?

  Right? He's like, "I'm waiting to give it to somebody. It's just y'all can't take it."

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:37Ryan Clark?

  When you look at acting as it is now and you talk about the changing landscape... How do you create longevity then?

• 35:47Speaker 01

  By diversifying your portfolio. I mean, like, my problem now is this. I'm 46 years old, so I want to get into producing. I want to start curating the Anthony Mackie experience. Tyler Perry has shown us the mold.

• 36:03Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Like, we don't get this motherfucker enough respect. What you think about his projects or whatever, this motherfucker has created the wheel, so it don't make sense for me to get a chisel and try to make another one. Like, the brilliance and the ingenuity in which he's executed this business is phenomenal. We have to acknowledge that. No one else has been able to do that. He makes more money than most studios. Right? So, you have to curate your experience. Captain America was an Anthony Mackie curated experience because I produced it. Everything. I had to say on all that shit. You know what I mean? When they hired the director, the director called me and was like, "Yo, I want to be on this movie." You know, well, Octavia called me and cursed me out for about 30 minutes and told me I had to hire him.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Yo, this chick, she called me and cursed me out for 30 minutes. I'm like, I didn't even say hello. "Mackie, you're black ass, let me tell you something."

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Lord. But that's how we found our director, you know? And once you curate that experience, you start to put yourself in a position where people know what to expect of you. Every time you see a Tom Cruise movie, that's a curated Tom Cruise experience. Will Smith used to be a curated Will Smith. You knew what you were getting. So, at this point in my career, because as men, your golden window is 35 to 60. Like, you look at Denzel, you can still play lover boy at 60. You can still do action. Liam Neeson, 115 years old.

• 37:31Ryan Clark?

  Hey, Tom on another mission soon.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Yo!

• 37:35Speaker 01

  That motherfucker, 80 years old.

• 37:37Ryan Clark?

  Liam Neeson's daughter need to keep her ass in the house.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Keep going over there. I swear to God. Sit your ass down. When you look at these cats, you make your money from thirty-five to sixty. That's when you have enough years in the business to where people trust you and they know what's coming with you. So that way they can say, let's do this. Because I always thought I would be a dramatic actor. I always thought I would be the actor, you know, sitting in there crying about my kid dying, you know, or some World War II shit like Denzel and shit, right? But I've realized now that I'm more of an action star. And I think a lot of it came from, you know, playing football and the athletics that I did. But my career now is based upon my athleticism. So I did a movie Outside the Wire on Netflix, my first Netflix joint.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Second day of production, goddamn stuntman go over to table, bust his head, concussed. I mean, eyes in his shit like that, right? I've been there. Yeah.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  That's why I quit football. I was like, I don't feel good. They're like, you have a concussion. Thanks.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  There we go. But this month was knocked out. So we still had six more weeks to shoot. There were no stuntmen available. We couldn't fly anybody and everybody I worked with before was booked up. I wasn't using the European dude. So I had to do all my shit. I did that movie, Netflix come back, they're like, yo, we watched the BTS. You really was over there kicking, jumping and whooping ass. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. They were like, bet. Boom, next one. Boom, next one. And that's even with the Captain America stuff, you know what I mean? It's like, I have a great stuntman, but my stuntman choreographed and dictates stuff to my ability. That's why you can't kick? Why you can't kick? I can't kick, bro. You got tight hips too. Fuck you. Your hamstring's tight. Fuck you. Old ass.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  They're trying to talk that shit. It's all just for men ass. You know you can't.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  You can't lie about your age. Kiss my ass.

• 39:38Channing Crowder?

  That's all you, RC? That's all you?

• 39:40Ryan Clark?

  Oh, no, I got a little. Speedy came down there, I put a little paint in it. Hey, I knew, I knew Mac was gonna be on the show. Some actors and stuff gonna watch this joint like, you never know what producer watch this be like, dang. They might be like, he actually kinda look like it.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Right, we could use him.

• 39:56Ryan Clark?

  We could use him, and now I'm in there.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  But it's about switching it up. Dude, even now, like with all the athletes, it's so interesting with the podcast scene, the commercial scene, the acting scene now. Like, look at what the Mannings are doing. You know, and, you know, quiet is kept. Like, the Mannings are, like, just dull. Like, they're just regular old dudes. They're not like, you know, great personalities, you know? But they've been able to take their, their brand and really build it to something huge. You look at the Kelseys, they were able to, you know, take that Taylor Swift bump and take it to another level. You know what I mean? And I think it's interesting now with the athletes, how they're able to diversify their lanes and able to take that and use that in a way to where I have a big market in Pittsburgh, right?

• 40:45Speaker 01

  So, I'mma, I'mma, you know, I'mma do this in Pittsburgh, or I'mma do that in Pittsburgh. And athletes have always done that. They always had the car dealership, or the barbecue joint, or, you know, it's, it's the same thing, just in a different form.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  College football is back. So Hilton called in me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Wanna make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey? Oh, that smells lucky. Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition. Even a marching band wake up call at 5:55 and 55 seconds. Hit it! When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay.

• 41:27Fred Taylor?

  I want to go back to the lie to your children, right? You're a father of four. I've also heard you say to your kids, "They don't really give a damn about what you do." Like, my kids, they care less that I play ball. They did not give a [bleep] at all. But for you, how do you balance being a father with everything Hollywood? And what messages from your upbringing do you impart with them as they grow?

• 41:54Speaker 01

  It's funny. I was pretty sure up until Captain America, my kids had no idea what I did. Like, we're literally sitting there. We go see Sonic the Hedgehog, and I didn't know they were playing the cap trailer before Sonic. So we sitting there, and I got all the shit, dude. I got popcorn, gummy worms. I got all, I mean, just, they had to bring out a tray for all my shit, right? So I'm talking to my son, hooking up his candy. I hear my voice. Like, "Oh shit, oh shit." So I'm looking at my kids, like...

• 42:26Speaker 01

  So I don't say nothing. My oldest son's on his phone. My second son's knee-deep in these fucking gummy worms, right?

• 42:34Speaker 01

  The two little ones are fighting and throwing popcorn at each other. So I'm like, "Braaah! Look at the [bleep] screen." So everybody behind us go, "Oh my God, are you OK?"

• 42:48Speaker 01

  They missed the whole trailer. Whole trailer. Like, "What's wrong with you, Dad?" Fuck it. But with Captain America is interesting because I try to keep my boys outside of it. Like, I don't want my boys affected by it or even acknowledge the idea of what Hollywood is and what it means to the general populace. Because I want them to find their own path. And we're blessed. Like, we're put in a position where we can afford our kids the best. You know? We're in a position where our grandkids, our great-grandkids, will be provided for. You know, and we weren't like that. You know, I know on the West Bank, you wasn't like that.

• 43:28Fred Taylor?

  No doubt.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, y'all eat, you know, Vienna sausages and pumpkin beans, you know?

• 43:31Fred Taylor?

  I did, though.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. But that's real. You know, that's where we came from. I keep my boys humble. Like, my boys have never had a pair of Jordans. You know, my boys don't do all that internet fly shit. I'm like, "Your kids." And, no, I don't give a [bleep]. I could be the biggest star in the world. Do not let me catch you being stupid. Do not. And my oldest gets it. My 15-year-old, he tell the other ones, he's like, yo, yo, don't make dad mad. Because once you get one that's right, he gonna straighten the other ones out. So it's just that thing of, you know, in the past 20 years, we've, we've been living through the death of the American male.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  They have literally killed masculinity in our homes and our communities. For one reason or another. But I raised my boys to be young men. And however you feel about that, you feel about that. But my boys will always be respectful. They will always say, yes, sir, yes, ma'am, no, sir, no, ma'am. They will always say, thank you. They will always open the door for a lady. They will always make sure that their mother is taken care and provided for. They will always be men. And that's always, since they were two years old. Every time I left for a job, I tell my 15-year-old, you the man of the house. You make sure these doors are locked every night, this alarm is on. You text me or you call me every night before you go to bed and you wake up.

• 44:57Channing Crowder?

  I love that.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Because we're men.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  If I'm not there to protect, he gotta be there to protect. Because you can have all the money in the world, motherfucker climb through the window, that money means nothing. You can have all the celebrity in the world, motherfucker jump through the door, that celebrity means nothing. So you gotta have a little, a little guard in there. You know, and so for me, it's always that idea of American masculinity is very different. You feel it when you go to Europe. Like you see these, and you're like,

• 45:25Speaker 01

  could bust your ass, boy. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? You go to Europe.

• 45:30Channing Crowder?

  Tight ass pants.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, tight ass pants. Motherfucker, boy, you better lotion your ankles. Like, you, you, you feel it when you go to Europe. Even when you, like, I was just in Kenya and I was walking around, I'm like, yeah. Dude was like, you ain't from here. I'm like, nah. Like, yeah, nah, yeah, I could tell. I know you can. I could tell I ain't from here. You know what I mean? It's just that, that American male masculinity is something I think is very important for boys. Because now our little boys are afraid to fail, so they don't try. You know what I mean? When we were kids, we did tackle drills. We would run face first into each other.

• 46:09Channing Crowder?

  We just talked about it. They shot. Dudes don't even talk to a woman face to face no more.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  They don't know how no more. Because, yo, women have, they are so mean and so angry. Bruh, I saw this, my nephew was talking to this girl. Oh my God, dude, she just killed him. I mean, he was like, excuse me, how you doing? She goes, ugh.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  How do you come back from that?

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Yo, he just walked over to me, I gave him his beer. I was like, there you go, bruh. That didn't happen. That didn't happen. Let's start over. Let's start over.

• 46:43Fred Taylor?

  You said Betty White shot her shot at you and you flinched? You ain't doing that?

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yes. But the thing about it is, when you look at, the reason I flinched and the reason I thought it was so funny, when you look at the history of her in Hollywood, it was actually like a touch of moment. Like Betty White had her own like Johnny Carson late night show. She was the first person to put a black man on television. And that's why they canceled her show. They were like, take him off. He was like the dance instructor for the show. He would dance on the show and they were like, take him off or you're gonna get canceled. One season she was canceled with a highly rated show. So, you know, when you see who you're dealing with, when you go back and watch Golden Girls, you know what I mean? And when Don Cheadle, one of my favorite episodes of TV ever. There was a Golden Girl episode and Blanche came out and put the Confederate flag in front of the check-in booth.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  So Don Cheadle had this moment, bruh, and this is when I knew. I was like, this dude ain't human. Like, there's no way he's acting like this is best actor of all time. Hands down. Like, I started acting because of Don Cheadle and this moment. Like, the monologue he had, the way he cut them to pieces, the way he utilized his words about that flag. I was like, holy shit. That's what we doing. We using words to affect change.

• 47:59Fred Taylor?

  Right.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  So that's why it's always been so important to me to like, like, I've been chasing this. My first job was Don Cheadle's understudy in Top Dog Underdog. You know what I mean? So that's one of those dudes you look at, you know, you talk to, you call and you're like, yo, man, what do you think about this? He goes, well, Mackie, that's just stupid. Damn, good point, good point, my bad.

• 48:22Ryan Clark?

  Like with Don, right, we got to meet him and it's like a lot of these dudes, you don't actually know they're not from here.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:30Ryan Clark?

  Right, like if you look at Don Cheadle and everything you've seen of him, he's like this, he's from the hood.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:35Ryan Clark?

  And they're not, or Dancin' the Dreech, you know what I'm saying, you watch it, Snowfall, and then I heard him talk and I was like,

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:41Ryan Clark?

  Holy hell, Stringer Bell.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:44Ryan Clark?

  You couldn't have told me that Stringer Bell wasn't from here.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:47Ryan Clark?

  So, so in that, like for you, you know, you're talking about American masculinity.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:51Ryan Clark?

  Right, being taken, and then there's also being a black man in Hollywood and

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Very different.

• 48:57Ryan Clark?

  Trying to get these jobs, and then now you do add to it that the same role you're going for, that it might be somebody that's from New Orleans that you're supposed to be playing, but that role could go to somebody from the UK.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  100%.

• 49:09Ryan Clark?

  How much does it affect that, like there's so much going into getting that job?

• 49:15Speaker 01

  The UK explosion has been really interesting because it's not the other way around, you know what I mean? Like a British dude can come here and do a shitty accent or do a good De Niro impersonation, they're like, wow, I couldn't even tell you were from London.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Like, I could, what the fuck are you talking about? Don't nobody talk like that. I ain't gonna say no names, but you watch these morons and they just do, like the white dudes do De Niro impersonations, the black dudes do Denzel impersonations. And don't fuck around and put a British dude next to Denzel, that motherfucker gonna be sitting there mouthing the words Denzel's saying, like.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Like, it's, it's crazy when you see it, bro, and I think just because I've been in the business so long, I can recognize it, but if you go to London, everybody has a different accent. There's no standard British accent. You, you go to Shepherd's Bush, you know, you go to Notting Hill, you, you go to any part of London, every single person has a different accent because everybody's from somewhere else. Right? So if you do a British accent, they're like, nah, that's not British. I'm like, really? Because I know a motherfucker that sounds just like that.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  But you can come here and do a shitty American accent.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And we accept that shit.

• 50:32Ryan Clark?

  It almost feel like, it almost feel like as long as it's not British no more, it's okay.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  You can, yo, true story. I was working with this actor and he was supposed to be from the south, right? Supposed to be from New Orleans. So I'm a producer on a movie. Midway the movie, I go to the director, I'm like, hey, we need to put a line in here that this motherfucker moved here uh from another country because that motherfucker ain't from America. He's like, what do you mean? I'm like,

• 51:03Speaker 01

  he, he had five different accents in one role. Like he had to say y'all, right? Real easy, y'all. That motherfucker was like, yow.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  How you put both L's in that motherfucker? What are you doing? So every time we on camera, I'm just, and my performance in the movie is bad because the whole time, every time he talk, I'm just looking at him like, nah. Like the whole movie should have been called nah, because every time I'm on screen, I'm like, that ain't it, bruh, that ain't it. So we literally put a line in there, like, you know, what made you move to New Orleans at such a, a young age to be a, a doctor? Like when you left Europe, what was that about? So it's like, alright, now we established that this motherfucker ain't from here, so he can talk this crazy shit.

• 51:49Ryan Clark?

  Have you ever had to turn a role from a, from a white role to, to fit you? Like I think Morgan Freeman read it was supposed to be like an actual Irishman. Have you ever had to work to get somebody to say, nah, don't change the role, like I can do this role.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Dude, Hurt Locker. Hurt Locker was written for a white dude. Fifty, sixty percent of my films were written for white dudes. And now it's to the point, it's interesting. Unless you're doing a movie in a damn, you know, Swiss Alps in eighteen twelve, they don't even put race in the character description anymore. Yeah. Because so much stuff has changed in Hollywood that you don't really see that anymore. But in the early two thousands, it was like character breakdown. White male. Tom Cruise type. White. White shoes. White. White speech. Clearing white teeth. White. But now, they don't, they don't really do that anymore.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  But there's, there's been, I mean, a lot of movies that were written for white actors that, like I said, once I took the meeting with the director, all, all this shit, I've done a hundred movies, you know I can act. Now it's about if we get along. Cause I ain't showing up to work every day if you annoying the out of me. I'd rather just not do the movie, cause I'm gonna slap the shit out you.

• 53:05Channing Crowder?

  You, you, you really had to Google me, bro. Standard, like, no, don't, nigga, Google me, don't, you know what I'm saying? Like, you, you, you're, you're at that. But all the roles you do, what was the hardest? Cause like, we've had other actors on and I'm like, to challenge that, I think I'm sneaking on brother to brother. Perry?

• 53:29Channing Crowder?

  Cause you kissed a man.

• 53:33Channing Crowder?

  Now, I've heard you say in the past, like, some people told you that would kill your career to be gay. Like, just, just, just channeling those roles, but just getting in the, in that mind frame, that mindset of doing roles that really ain't you.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:47Channing Crowder?

  You were, you were married, you got four sons, but now you kissing a man, like, channeling that. You kissed a man.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  He's different. Nah, he, he.

• 53:55Channing Crowder?

  I was, I was worried about him.

• 53:59Ryan Clark?

  Hey, I know I was worried about him, cause he ain't had no facial hair and I don't really feel like you can trust a black man with no facial hair.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  With that booty face, nah. I grew that shit right back.

• 54:10Channing Crowder?

  I like that, dawg.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  So my first job, when I was at Juilliard, there was this guy named Michael Wynn, he was a writer. And we worked shop and did a play about Tupac called Up Against the Wind. So I've played Tupac three times, on stage, off Broadway, and in a movie, right? So, the interesting thing was, Michael Wynn wrote this play called Up Against the Wind. We did it at school. Uh, this guy Rodney Evans came to see it, he was doing this movie, he wanted me to play, uh, Perry's best friend, who was the poet. And I was like, nah, Perry's the best role. Like, I don't give a that he gay. Like, it's the best role. He's like, well, you can't play gay. I said, why? He's like, cause you're not gay.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  I was like, that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. I'm an actor. We acted. Right? So after a lot of back and forth, he gave me the role, mostly because he couldn't find anybody else who can act. So, so got the role, did the movie, finished the movie, went off to do Eight Miles. So that was literally my first movie. But I did it for a specific reason. Growing up in the South in the 90s and 80s, you grow up homophobic, sexist, and racist. And we're talking about the 80s and the 90s. That's just a fact. You know what I mean? So when I got to school, my roommate was gay. Like, I ain't know how to deal with that. Like, my brother's gay. I ain't know how to deal with that.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  So being a man, I used my art to better myself. I played Perry so that I could understand my brother better. So I could understand my friends better. Going to art school, a bunch of my friends were gay. You know what I mean? Like, when I was a kid, we had a record label. We had the first gay rapper. Nobody gave a [bleep]. You make good music, nobody care. You know, Big Frida is famous.

• 55:51Channing Crowder?

  Here for sure.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  For sure. You know what I mean? So the idea of being gay in New Orleans has always not only been supported, but it's been a part of the culture. But with me, I needed to figure out what was my holdup, what was my insecurity about that. And once I played that role, I realized everybody deserves to be loved. It's not my job to say who you love or who should love you. If you loved, I'm happy for you. And I mean, I'm gay. You know, so Perry was more so a statement piece for me with the love and admiration for my brother, with the appreciation and respect of my friends for that culture. It really put me in a position where I think it made me a better actor because I had to go so far out the box.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  I had to go to the furthest spectrum away from myself to play that role.

• 56:40Channing Crowder?

  Was that the hardest role that you had to conjure?

• 56:43Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. I, uh, I really answered the question. If a tree falls in the woods and nobody's there to hear it, does it make a sound? I did some of my, some of my best acting in my career. Like, literally, high fives, walking off set every day on this Amazon show.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  So it was me acting against myself. So I had to learn literally 65 pages of dialogue. So the premise of the show was, I was a dude who realized he had a terminal illness. So you could order a clone of yourself, and you get 48 hours to teach that clone everything he needs to know to live as you for your family for going forward. So literally, I had to play, clone me and reel me. And dude, I'll tell you something, man, it was the hardest, it was the hardest experience I've ever had in my career. And I did it for that reason. I was like, you know, you get comfortable. You're doing four or five movies a week, you're making money, you got the truck.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  It's like all this shit, you're just chilling. You know, money ain't a question no more, so what's the question? So after the past 20 years, I was like, I really need to do something to see if I still got it. Like, I really need to find a role that challenges me. So, found this role, met with the director and did it, and murdered it. I don't talk about my work a lot, but this one, I said, I fucking murdered it. And not too many people could have done what I did with that role. But nobody saw it.

• 58:17Channing Crowder?

  I was about to say, what's the, goddamn, I need the name or something, man.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Not one person saw it.

• 58:21Channing Crowder?

  It's not on Amazon?

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's on Amazon.

• 58:24Channing Crowder?

  Well, you got one view.

• 58:28Fred Taylor?

  We always ask our guests, what's their biggest pivot, right, in life? That's that one moment you can look back on and say, without this moment happening to me, I wouldn't be who I am. But, I want you to respond in your New Orleans accent, because nobody will never hear it.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  That's funny. I'll say, when I was in 10th grade, my best friend got killed. And I saw it. Like, I was standing there with him, and I was across the street. He was at the gas station, dude got out and just mowed him down. And I, um...

• 59:09Speaker 01

  I just, I realized I had to leave New Orleans. Like, a lot of people don't know this, I'm talking about my mom passed away when I was 15. So after that, I was in a spiral. You know what I mean? I was in the streets, I was doing dumb shit, like, just running around being an idiot. Because I was, basically, I know, I can say now, I was acting out, railing against God. Like, there are all these bad people out here, why would you take my mom? Like, my mom go to church every Sunday, we do the feeding of the hungry once a month, like, why would you take my mom? My mom's a great mother, she's a humanitarian, she took care of her kids, she take care of the neighborhood, why would you take my mom? So I really went to a dark place. And because of that, a lot of dark stuff happened.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  And the passing of my mom with my friend getting killed is what preempted me to go to North Carolina for that summer. Because I knew, if I stayed that summer, I wouldn't be here today. It's just, it is what it is. That was the big moment, when my mom passed away, I literally was... Done. You know? I mean, my dad was a great dad, but there's only so much you can do without a mom. So, when, once I found an understanding and a love for my craft, it filled that void. It filled that hole, you know? And it really gave me a better understanding of myself. So, I would say that's the, that was the, that was the big moment.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  But seeing my boy get killed, like that, that was, that was crazy.

• 1:00:41Ryan Clark?

  It's so many people that, that we know, that have had that experience.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Ryan Clark?

  It's not just about New Orleans, right? I think a lot of times, we do get the reputation of that because it's, you know, Pete, what Pete used to say, murder capital of the world.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:56Ryan Clark?

  Right? And it was part of our experience, but I also know that you had a teacher that tell you, don't let the people get all that New Orleans about you.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:04Ryan Clark?

  And stay authentic to that, man, and I think you have, and that's what's the most exciting part for me. Like, when I do see you on screen, and I'm not gonna lie, it feels good that I can text you after the movie. You know what I mean? I got his number, I'm just gonna text him after the movie. But to know that somebody else from here made it, man, somebody else from here... Has done well, but also somebody else from here comes back.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:26Ryan Clark?

  Right?

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 1:01:27Ryan Clark?

  You know, you move away, you experience things, but you remember all the people here and what it means to see you walk down the street.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:34Ryan Clark?

  Wave and shake a hand, man.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  No, I still talk to my teachers. I was literally with my high school acting teacher last week. You know what I mean? Like, I still, I realize, you know, the importance of education and teachers. You know, every time I had a teacher who left me off, I had another teacher who picked me up. And it was just, it was weird shit. It was shit black dudes don't do. You know what I mean? Like, when I got to New York, I was studying with Felix Ivanoff. He was the head clown for the Moscow Art Theater.

• 1:02:03Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  So he defected from Russia, came to America, and became like a movement and clown teacher. I'm studying what other black dude you know doing circus clown class?

• 1:02:14Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Like, my teacher, right, right, but I was seeing the world in a different lane, in a different light. Like, my teacher here, Ray Brizell, this motherfucker, he was like, you know, uh, we're gonna do something different. So, we do a mime troupe. Right? So, we're straight up doing mime shit, telling stories and mime and shit. And we're going around to old folks' homes and senior citizen shit in schools, and we're performing these mime shows for kids and old people. Right? Nobody else do that. But, it gave me a completely different perspective on the world. You know what I mean? It was, it was just, it was so much fun because I was doing everything I never thought was possible.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  Because I knew the kids uptown was doing it, the kids in private school was doing it, I knew, you know, when I would talk to kids, when I got to NOKA, like when that motherfucker told me backpack across Europe. The fuck? Like, would your black ass go home and tell your mama, "Mom, I'm taking eight pair of underwear, two pair of pants, and six shirts, and I'mma walk across Europe for three months." Sit your black ass down.

• 1:03:19Ryan Clark?

  And the last thing, the last thing she gonna tell you is we can't afford that.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:23Ryan Clark?

  So you ain't going.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Right, you ain't going.

• 1:03:25Ryan Clark?

  Man, but appreciate you so much, man.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  Nah, no doubt, bro.

• 1:03:28Ryan Clark?

  From where you started to where you are now, but also, man, spending this time with us today, man, thank you so much.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Y'all get something to eat? Y'all want something to eat? Y'all look hungry.

• 1:03:35Ryan Clark?

  I mean, I'll eat.

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  You need me to walk you to the car?

• 1:03:39Channing Crowder?

  Appreciate you, family.

• 1:03:41Ryan Clark?

  That's love.

• 1:03:41Channing Crowder?

  Thank you, Doug. Thank y'all for coming. No, man, appreciate you, man. I got a road foot. I ain't Captain America, man. He tried to do a toe touch. I tried to do a toe touch for my daughter. You lying. Did the toe touch and landed in that big crack. Broke his foot. Broke my foot. How old you in? Forty-one. Yeah, you got it. Yeah, come on, man. Come on, man.

• 1:04:25Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. No two football players are exactly alike, and the same is true off the field. That's why State Farm gets to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.