Exploring Grit, with Angela Duckworth

What is grit? Neil deGrasse Tyson, comic co-host Chuck Nice, and psychologist, author, and world-renown expert on grit Angela Duckworth, PhD, answer fan-submitted Cosmic Queries on the science of grit.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.

• 0:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is StarTalk. Cosmic Queries, a fan favorite. I got with me Chuck Nice. Chuck?

• 0:22Chuck Nice?

  Hey Neil, what's happening?

• 0:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're always doing this. We're doing it with Cosmic Queries.

• 0:26Chuck Nice?

  That's right. You gotta love it.

• 0:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We got this. You gotta love it.

• 0:28Chuck Nice?

  People love Cosmic Queries and...

• 0:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And live.

• 0:32Chuck Nice?

  And this.

• 0:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They live.

• 0:34Chuck Nice?

  Live. Yeah. I love it! But I will say that this episode, I happened to monitor the Twitter. And people have really, they are super excited about this episode.

• 0:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, the topic is grit and perseverance. Which is not just what athletes have, but anyone who achieves and succeeds and excels in life or anything else they choose. Generally, it requires a little bit of grit and perseverance. And I don't think enough credit is given to that. We so often want to say, "Oh, they're natural."

• 1:10Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 1:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right? And so I think they say that because then it absolves yourself from having to believe you could achieve it by working hard. They'll just say, "Ah, they just got it for free."

• 1:21Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 1:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Basically, just by being born.

• 1:23Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 1:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, neither you nor I are an expert on this, but we do have someone who is, a friend of StarTalk.

• 1:28Chuck Nice?

  Yes!

• 1:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's her second appearance. Angela Duckworth. Angela!

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Hello! I'm so happy to be called a friend of StarTalk. Very exciting. I'm gonna put on my resume.

• 1:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You were on once and you agreed to come back. That's sufficient to call you a friend.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Okay, that's good.

• 1:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We have a low bar.

• 1:44Chuck Nice?

  I was gonna say that. As you can see, the threshold is not...

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's all right. I'll take it.

• 1:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you are professor of psychology, University of Pennsylvania.

• 1:53Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 1:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you're author of an amazing book called "Grit: The Power and Passion of Perseverance." Love it. And that changed the dialogue on what it is to achieve. I remembered when the book came out and everybody was talking about it. It was in the news. And you're also founder and CEO of The Character Lab.

• 2:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Character Lab. What is that?

• 2:17Chuck Nice?

  What a great name.

• 2:19Speaker 02

  You like it?

• 2:19Chuck Nice?

  I love that name.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  I think people like wonder about what character means, but let me just say what Character Lab is. It's a nonprofit. We advance scientific insights that help kids thrive. So we help scientists and educators study and improve things like grit, but also gratitude, growth mindset, curiosity, kind of everything that we think Aristotle meant when he said that character is life that's well-lived. So it's a little bit new, it's a little bit old-fashioned, and I like the term character, but I think it's a little out of fashion these days, to be honest.

• 2:55Chuck Nice?

  Really?

• 2:56Speaker 02

  You guys don't agree?

• 2:57Chuck Nice?

  No.

• 2:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, character as a, as a, that's the thing. What's your character? Are you a gentleman and a lady? Yeah, so I agree, the way that's sort of written in 19th century literature, it's a little outdated. But if you, if you update it and make it real.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  That's the lab part.

• 3:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There you go.

• 3:14Chuck Nice?

  Maybe it's, maybe it's my upbringing, because it was stressed highly in my home. The, uh, the condition of your character being the thing that measures you as a person and where your value as a person is found. It is found in your character. That's how, I was raised that way, so I.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Right. How, like, how are you gonna show up in the world, right?

• 3:36Chuck Nice?

  Right, yeah.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it resonates with me.

• 3:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Martin Luther King's speech.

• 3:40Chuck Nice?

  Oh my god!

• 3:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of your character.

• 3:42Chuck Nice?

  That's right!

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Yes. We have Martin Luther King quotes, and you, you know he liked the word "character", because he used it more than once. And the one that we have in the biggest font is that "character plus intelligence, those are the true goals of education." Uh, and because you were talking about talent just a moment ago, which is the foil, I think, for grit, like, this is what I'm not studying. Um, I couldn't agree more. That character, including your grit and more, you know, these are all things that matter for kids to develop as they grow up.

• 4:14Chuck Nice?

  Sweet.

• 4:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, and also your co-host of the podcast, No Stupid Questions. So you're ideal for a cosmic queries, because you're not gonna make anybody feel bad. Chuck, Chuck will read a question, say, "That's a stupid question."

• 4:27Chuck Nice?

  I will.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna tell Chuck.

• 4:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck will be all up in it.

• 4:30Chuck Nice?

  I will tell, I will tell people in a second, "That is stupid."

• 4:35Speaker 02

  You could have just stupid questions as we could, you know, pair up.

• 4:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A spin off, a spin off of the ones that Angela rejects.

• 4:42Chuck Nice?

  I like that, just stupid questions.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Probably more fun.

• 4:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And back in 2017, you were MacArthur Fellow, that's the genius fellow that are so widely written about. People and it's a huge chunk of money that you could like go to the Bahamas with it if you chose.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  I donated my, my MacArthur to Character Lab. Because you know, honestly, I don't know what MacArthur Fellows do with their money, but I kind of think it would be gross to keep it, don't you think?

• 5:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's a nice chunk of change. You want to do something right with it.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't just go to Vegas or anything.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't need to go to Vegas.

• 5:16Chuck Nice?

  I was gonna say thereby being a reflection of your character.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  I have to say this, like no kidding here, like being the, you know, titular head of Character Lab. There have been many times where I have thought like, I want to say this, I want to do this, I want to tweet this, I want to retweet like, and then I think, but probably not the best thing for the head of Character Lab.

• 5:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you need an alter ego or something.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. Yeah, I need like a secret, like alter identity.

• 5:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Angela Devilsworth, you know?

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 5:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So we, we had, this is a cosmic queries and we solicited questions on grit and perseverance and right up your alley. And you, and Chuck, you said people were just all in it.

• 6:02Chuck Nice?

  Man, I mean, I, you have really touched a nerve. You know, with the idea of what, what your work on grit, because people are not only just asking questions, but then people were debating each other from the questions that they asked online. And I've never seen that happen before with a cosmic queries.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh gosh, now I'm really curious. I want to know what people are saying.

• 6:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it created dustups even within the inquiry page.

• 6:31Chuck Nice?

  Right. With people asking questions, it created just responses to the questions. And that is good. It means that you are a catalyst for conversation, which is wonderful.

• 6:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ooh, I love the alliteration Chuck, that was beautiful.

• 6:41Chuck Nice?

  So here we go, right?

• 6:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's do it.

• 6:43Chuck Nice?

  Let's do this. And we always start with a Patreon patron because they support us financially and of course we'd be fools not to. So let's go with Thomas.

• 6:56Chuck Nice?

  Alan Skies, Alan Skus, there we go. Ilinski, there you go. Thomas Ilinski says this.

• 7:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Somehow I doubt it, but go on.

• 7:04Chuck Nice?

  I know.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  I was like, I'm not gonna try that one.

• 7:06Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, Angela, you will.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Thomas.

• 7:08Chuck Nice?

  Well, you will see that a running theme here in StarTalk is that I butcher people's names.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Oh, that's good. I hope you're doing it indiscriminately, like equally offend.

• 7:17Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I do.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Everyone.

• 7:18Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  That's the point.

• 7:20Chuck Nice?

  Everybody's name gets butchered and it's, you know, it's, yeah, I won't even say, I won't go any further. Uh, it says, hey, Dr. Tyson and Dr. Duckworth. Having served in the Army for four years, my fellow veterans have come to realize the importance of resiliency. Now, as a psychology major, what tools could I use to help others transition successfully into the civilian mindset? Coming to you from Fort Benning.

• 7:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Could, Angela, do you think that question?

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Did you see my shirt here, by the way? I got my.

• 7:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, I see that, Army.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  And that was not, you know, this is just dressed down a little bit for you guys, honestly.

• 8:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It was the last thing in the drawer because you haven't done laundry.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Well, you know what? I actually have a lot of West Point swag because I've been working with, uh, West Point for, I don't know, 15 years or something. So, yeah, they.

• 8:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is right there.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, tax dollars at work here.

• 8:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I wonder if that question relates to the fact that in the Army, you are commanded to perform, right? And someone is screaming at you, calling you a maggot, and you don't want to be a maggot. Whereas in regular life, no one is calling you a maggot unless that happens to Chuck.

• 8:33Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely, yes.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Chuck wants to weigh in on that.

• 8:35Chuck Nice?

  It's normally my father-in-law, but it's okay. I, I, I think of it as a term of endearment.

• 8:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So if, if there's, if that force isn't operating on you, can you, I, I don't want to overinterpret his question, but it seems to me it's, where do you, if a military person is trying to offer help to a civilian, they're trying to find ways that a civilian can get motivated, perhaps from within.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, and if I'm, again, like, reading into Thomas's question, just guessing, I think a lot of people have the question, when you move out of the military into civilian life, or you, you know, retire from a sports team, or any of these major life transitions where you were gritty, no doubt, right, in something, how do you transfer that in another domain? And I think it is a good question, because I actually don't think being gritty in one situation, then everything changes. I don't think there's any guarantee that you're especially gonna be, you know, passionate and persevering in this next thing. I mean, it's not that you change entirely, I just think that we come to rely a lot on those structures, and maybe this is what you're getting at, Neil, like, you know, the military

• 9:42Speaker 02

  is so structured, so is, by the way, being a part of a professional sports team, and so are a lot of other professions that require a lot of grit, and when you take somebody

• 9:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  out of that- And discipline, yeah.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  And discipline, right? And there are like, there are routines, there are like, things that you don't have to like, invent entirely on your own. I mean, getting up early isn't that hard when you are a part of active service, right? You don't have to like, think like, how am I gonna get up early and like, schedule my day? So I think it is a good question, and if the advice is, like, what could I, as somebody who is gritty and is in the military, like, say to somebody who is transitioning, or maybe they're civilians and they've never been in the military, I always think stories are the best way to do it. Like, it's something I've not actually fully understood as a scientist, but there is something about the human mind that learns from stories in a way that we, and you tell me what you guys think, like, that we, like, we never forget them.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Like, I hardly forget a story that somebody, you know, tell, whereas statistics just run through like, water like a sieve, right? And there's this kind of stickiness, and sometimes, you know, like, there's a morals that we remember of the story, but also the moral. Anyway, I think telling stories that are true, and that are maybe helpful to illustrate, you know, times that you've struggled with resilience, but like, what you learned and what worked for you.

• 10:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So not just a story in the abstract, but a personal experience story, which presumably makes it that much more real.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  What do you think about that, though? You guys do a lot more conversing than I do.

• 11:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Entirely. I think- Uh, you just look back, you know, when children sit in a circle around a storyteller, they are completely wrapped. And you don't even need video for that. You can just sit there, and if you're a good storyteller, you just talk to them, and they're wrapped. And the adult version of that is when you go to the movies, and someone is telling you a story from the screen. So, uh, not only that, the constellations of the night sky, um, I've studied them just because they're fun to talk about when you have a star party, but they're stories. Every constellation has a story. And I was told, I, I read that this was a way that you boosted conversational literacy, like you would just talk about the sky, and wherever you were, the sky was with you, and you'd be able to tell that to others.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  You mean like in ancient times?

• 11:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, ancient times, of course.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah.

• 11:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not without the app, that you look at the app, and you hold up the app.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 12:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, in my day, we had to remember where the stars were, and none of this app stuff.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Yes, right, right. But those ancient times.

• 12:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But, um, the mythologies were, one way to remember them was you put them in the sky, and they're in the dome, they're in your cosmic dome every night.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think, I think there's like an emotion that comes with stories that like never really comes through with statistics. And then, you know, if you tell a story about your own life, there's, there's a little bit of a, like, people can see themselves, like, in your shoes. So, yeah, I have, like I said, I haven't really unpacked, like, all the, what are all the magic ingredients of stories? Because they are magical. I think we named a couple of them.

• 12:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, another question.

• 12:39Chuck Nice?

  Okay, here we go. Uh, Leslie Goodwill of Patreon also wants to know. Uh, she says, "My daughter Trinity asks, how the science of grit and perseverance can relate to the cosmic perspective?"

• 12:56Speaker 02

  What? I feel like I should pass that immediately to Neil.

• 13:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, we have to tag team this. No, no, no, this is a tag team question. So, we have to figure out.

• 13:06Chuck Nice?

  So first, first, first, so let's break this down. First, is there a way to encapsulate the, the science of grit?

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, we should probably start with that. That's probably my part of the collaboration here, right?

• 13:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, yes, okay.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Okay, um, so, uh, in a nutshell, what I mean by grit is this combination of, of passion and perseverance for really long-term goals. And I think that's the part I really want to emphasize, not being like, "Oh, my God, I want to be a stand-up comic, and I so want to do it," like, and that person's like staying up at, you know, till four in the morning once, right? Like, it's really like, how do you sustain? Passion and perseverance for honestly years or decades because I just don't think anything great ever happens overnight and that that's the emphasis in grit on stamina.

• 13:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And people want something to happen quickly and grit is the opposite of that. It's recognizing that it takes long investments.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, people aren't very good at waiting. We all know that, right? Like, none of us are, you know, if if any of us could have instant gratification compared to delayed gratification, we would all take instant gratification. I think if there were a shortcut to, you know, world-class excellence, I would I would take it too. But yeah.

• 14:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's just so completely obvious when you when you put it that way, right?

• 14:22Speaker 02

  It is. Actually, there's a data set on about a thousand four-year-olds, like all over the country, where they were all given the choice between like two treats, say like, let's say marshmallows, because that was one of the two marshmallows.

• 14:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The famous marshmallow experiment?

• 14:36Speaker 02

  It is, but here's the thing, like.

• 14:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Tell it, tell it.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Okay, so so a lot of people saw this, like, on the Colbert Report and like, you know, it's kind of entered, like Sesame Street's done stuff on it. So so a lot of people have heard about the marshmallow test. The way the marshmallow test works is you get a, like, usually around a four-year-old preschool, and they're sitting at a table and they're first given a selection of all kinds of treats. Say they pick marshmallows as their favorite. You take away all the other treats and then you make two piles. Say you have two marshmallows on the right, you have one marshmallow on the left, and you just ask the little boy or girl, like, would you rather have two, but you have to wait, you know, till I come back in the room, I gotta do something, or one right away? So it's two later or one

• 15:17Speaker 02

  now. And the the test part is really like you see how long that four-year-old can can really wait it out versus just basically, you know, eat the first one, right? And then have have one now. And here's the thing, everybody decides that they want to have two. You ask them, like, do you want to have two later? Everybody says, I'll wait, I'll wait, I'm good, like, I'll definitely wait. And then the question is, how long can you wait? So I think it's just interesting that we would all prefer to, you know, have more, even if there's a wait. But I I think there's a, you know, inability to sustain that.

• 15:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I can offer a cosmic reflection on that. That's a kid test, of course, but if you raise that up to adult level, there's still that behavior manifested, maybe not with marshmallows, but other treats.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Oh, lots of other things that we have problems with.

• 16:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, things that are so much better than marshmallows.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably some of them are legal and...

• 16:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Very good point, only some of which are legal. Right. So I would say, so biologically, when I think about it, there's all these people who want to live forever, all right? And I thought to myself, do I want to live forever? Well, if I live forever, then I have no motivation to do anything today, because I can always do it tomorrow.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  You can always procrastinate.

• 16:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, and so if you recognize, and if you're not Shirley MacLaine, who believes in multiple lives and others in the... Or whole religions, of course, have these foundations, or not just whether you're reborn, but whether you are born on Earth again, whether you're in Valhalla or heaven or anywhere else. So if you see your life as just the days on this world, then, and you know you are going to die, that creates a sense of urgency to how you spend your time.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  But, yeah.

• 17:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not only, let me take another step higher.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The number of people who have ever been born is small compared to the total genetic combinations that can make an actual human. And it will forever be a miniscule fraction of that.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  Tiny fraction, right?

• 17:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Tiny fraction.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So most people who could ever exist will never even be born. Right. So, to quote, to quote Richard Dawkins, "We, because we die..."

• 17:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are the lucky ones because we are alive at all.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so when I

• 18:00Speaker 02

  Exposed to non-existence.

• 18:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Exposed to non-existence.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Never having existed.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So when I think of what I'm gonna do today, it is because I exist. I might not have ever existed and my days on this earth are limited.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  Do you really think about that like on a

• 18:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I say weekly, not, not, not daily.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Weekly.

• 18:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Weekly.

• 18:21Chuck Nice?

  He, he, he, he thinks about it so much that he's written a children's book called, You're gonna die.

• 18:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're all gonna die.

• 18:29Chuck Nice?

  You're all gonna die, now get something done.

• 18:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do something with it. So for me, that can be a motivator for

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Anyone who fully embraces and understands that state of truth.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  About the world.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and, and I do think you're right that kind of, um, you know, let's just talk about procrastination, like, yeah, I'll get to it. And, and people procrastinate in small ways, like, yeah, they, they should get around to something and it, it, they delay by a week, but you're right. Some people are delaying things by like decades.

• 19:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  Like, yeah, I'm gonna get a job that I really care about, like, you know, at some point and then, and then years go by. I think, I think if you really thought you were only gonna live for one day, right? If today were the only day, then, uh, and, you know, that would create an urgency just to like, I don't know what that would create an urgency for, but like, but yeah, no, I think having a sense of mortality, by the way, I think about my death a lot and I think it's like

• 19:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But Angela, you need to see a psychologist.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  No, I think it's very healthy. I actually try to remind other people of death, like, a lot, maybe not weekly, but, um, you know, especially when I start like a new collaboration or if I meet somebody that I really wanna work with, I'm like, alright, hi, my name is Angela. Like, here's why I'm reaching out to you. You're gonna die, so am I, very quickly. I mean, I'm not exactly sure when, we should work on this together. Like, I literally say that in opening emails. It doesn't always work.

• 19:53Chuck Nice?

  I was, I was

• 19:55Speaker 02

  But I, isn't it true though?

• 19:57Chuck Nice?

  It is.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  I had been to probably too many, you know, Zoom services, like memorial services during this pandemic. And I was just at one yesterday, and it was a great life. It was the guy who, the scientist behind the 10,000 hour rule, the deliberate practice. It was a beautiful celebration, but he, you know, died in his very early 70s and it was very unexpected and sudden. And you could say like, it was tragic, but I remember when I, well, it was yesterday. I was like, they are weeping with everyone else. And I was thinking, you know, whether it's 72 or maybe 92 or whatever, it is a blink of an eye. And so I, I think actually keeping that in perspective, like, I don't know, I think it's very helpful.

• 20:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I, I, I'm glad we agree, and that's our collaborative project.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We've just concluded on.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 20:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We've got to take a first break.

• 20:49Chuck Nice?

  There you go, ladies and gentlemen. This episode of Death Talk has been brought to you by Dr. Angela Duckworth and Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  Very popular topic.

• 20:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We got to, we got to take a quick break. When we come back, more on breaking down the anatomy of grit and perseverance on Cosmic Queries at Stark.

• 21:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back. Stark Talk, Cosmic Queries, grit and perseverance, determination. Angela Duckworth, literally and figuratively, wrote the book on this. And just before the break, you mentioned that you attended a memorial service by the guy who wrote about the 10,000 hours. Just remind us what the 10,000 hours is.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  So there's a, an idea that to become a world-class expert at anything, you know, chess, ballet, astrophysics, you need to put in, say, 10,000 hours. I mean, I say that in air quotes, I'll unpack it in a second, 10,000 hours of practice. And, and that's, I think, almost become, you know, almost like part of common. Culture, right, that like the 10,000 hour rule is the rule of becoming great. Martin Gladwell is the journalist who wrote about it, but the scientist behind that research was named Anders Ericsson. And he passed away and his memorial service was yesterday and I was a collaborator and a friend of his. And I think one of the things that Anders would want everyone to know is that it does

• 22:32Speaker 02

  take thousands and thousands of hours of practice to become great. His own brother said during his memorial service that if you added up the number of hours this guy spent on the science of expertise, it easily would have exceeded 100,000 hours. But what Anders would really want everyone to know-

• 22:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But it's very meta to say he spent at least 10,000 hours trying to prove that 10,000 hours would make you an expert.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  It was so meta. I mean, actually, in his own family, but also among friends and colleagues, we used to just all joke that he was the world expert on world experts. I mean, it's super meta, right?

• 23:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  And then he actually did all the things that he studied. It was meta, meta, meta. But here's the thing that I think a lot of people don't appreciate, which is that it's the quality of the practice that really distinguishes experts. I mean, obviously, it's the quality and the quantity, but what experts do with those hours is different from what other people do.

• 23:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it's not just, let me get in the water and slap my hands to try to swim, let me improve the stroke.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 23:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I think built into the concept of practice is you're trying to get better at it. You're not just doing it. So it's 10,000 hours of improving yourself, not 10,000 hours of just doing-

• 23:41Chuck Nice?

  Okay, well, you guys have just hit upon a really great point. I'm going to interrupt and throw in two questions because they're so apropos to what you just said in a different way, but still. Kunal Kahana from Facebook says, "Does perseverance really lead to success? And when should a scientist slash person slash athlete know when to quit?"

• 24:09Chuck Nice?

  That's one. That's one.

• 24:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I like that one.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  That's just one? Okay, that was a long one. If you tell me the next one, I'm gonna forget the first one.

• 24:18Chuck Nice?

  Here's the, just remember, when is it, when, when should I know when to quit?

• 24:21Speaker 02

  When to quit.

• 24:22Chuck Nice?

  And then Nathan Warden along the same lines, okay, you guys can combine this. There's a saying, you can run a donkey around the track and train him harder than any racehorse that's ever been trained, but he'll never win the Kentucky Derby. Is there a limit to the amount of success that we can expect from grit when competing? So that goes to what you guys just finished saying about how to train, how to practice. But then, the second part of that is, okay, you're doing all the right things. Is there a point where you should say, enough is enough, I'm going to quit?

• 24:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait Chuck, Chuck, that donkey would win.

• 24:59Chuck Nice?

  Of donkeys.

• 25:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of donkeys, yeah.

• 25:02Chuck Nice?

  And nobody wants that!

• 25:06Speaker 02

  That is not making it on ESPN.

• 25:08Chuck Nice?

  Nobody wants to be the fastest ass on the course!

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Okay, there are worse things that you could be, but definitely not.

• 25:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But the fastest burrow.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Okay, so, so are you guys watching, you already watched The Last Dance, right?

• 25:23Chuck Nice?

  Oh, the Michael Jordan thing. Yeah.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I've seen four episodes, yeah.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Wait, did you stop, are you not wanting to watch the rest of it?

• 25:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I, I, Angela, I lead, I'm a busy man, okay?

• 25:33Speaker 02

  You're like, come on.

• 25:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't have to like shame me. You don't have to like.

• 25:37Speaker 02

  I'm only on episode two, I'm not gonna shame you.

• 25:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Binge shame me, we're seeing only four out of eight episodes.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Well, I'm having a hard time delaying gratification because every time I start watching it, all I want to do is just watch it all the way through. So actually, it's, okay, anyway, the reason I bring it up is because people ask the question, if I trained for 10,000 or 20,000 hours, like, could I ever be Michael Jordan? Right? And I think for most people, it doesn't take much thinking to think like, no, would definitely not be Michael Jordan even if I trained for 100,000 hours, right? So. I disagreed a little bit with Anders on this. We had many spirited conversations. But I do believe that there are abilities that are not, you know, like equally distributed, you know, between all of us. Like, anybody could be Michael Phelps, anybody could be Katie Ledecky,

• 26:26Speaker 02

  anybody could be fill in the blank. I think Anders may have been a little more skeptical that there really are things as like talents that, you know, really limit what we can do. I think what we agreed on is that people are so far away from their potential that it's just like this hypothetical that they throw out. They're like, what if I, you know, what if I really worked really hard? But I think if you're not even approaching that hypothetical limit in your actual life, it's a kind of silly almost, like to ask.

• 26:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Angela, so not to put words in your mouth, but are you saying, and if you are, I agree entirely, that it's a false comparison to say, if I work hard at best, will I ever be as good as Michael Jordan? What they should be asking is, if I work harder than I am at any of these other hundred things, will I get much, much better at it?

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Yes, than I was, right? Because like, you know, like, the comparison between you and other people, which is, by the way, totally natural, we all do it, is not as useful as the comparison of you and yourself, right?

• 27:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To what you could be.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  To what you could be.

• 27:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If you just kept worked on what you do best.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  To what you want to be, to what you were, to today, to tomorrow. All those comparisons, I think, are very useful. The other ones are less useful.

• 27:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Very good. Okay, so when should you give up?

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, the quick question. I think there are occasions where we should give up. The times that we should give up are when there's something better you can do, right? I mean, it's kind of that simple. In economics, they call it like opportunity cost, right? Like, when the opportunity cost exceeds, right? So should I be doing this podcast anymore? I was like, I don't know. Maybe there's something better you could do, right? I think that's giving up, you know, on a good day, right? It's like, you know, I've been thinking about it.

• 28:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I got one, Angela. So I have a cameo in Ice Age 5.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  What animal are you?

• 28:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, I'm a weasel. So now, the critics said...

• 28:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of Ice Age 5. By the way, you didn't know there were four of them.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  I, yeah, my kids are a little too old for that.

• 28:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Neither did I know that there were four when I left. So, one of the critics said, um, Ice Age 5 makes it clear that this franchise should have gone extinct a long time ago.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a good line. I love that.

• 28:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That was telling them they should quit. They haven't made another one since.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Oh, maybe, yeah, maybe the critic finally got to that. I mean, look, there are times where you're like, instead of making Ice Age 6, like, maybe there's something better we could do, right? Like, that really is always the rational answer. The thing that I also study, though, is like giving up too early. You know, there are people who, like, you know, that initial discouragement, right? You know, one thing that happens in life, and you guys are both successful, that, you know, that was flattery, but it was sincere, but, you know, you, you, you get into like bigger and bigger ponds, right? And like suddenly you're not the biggest fish in the pond anymore. You're in a much bigger pond. That's what it means to be successful is to move up like that. That initial drop in your ego, which it almost feels like the bottom of your stomach falls out.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  It's like, it's like, oh, wait, I'm not the special shiny one. I think a lot of people quit then, right? And like, I think that's too early to quit. Like, you just transition into, you know, West Point, which I studied for, you know, more than a decade, and that initial kind of like you are not number one, you're not even number two, half the people are below average, right? Can you, can you not quit?

• 29:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, everyone's above average, Angela.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  That's Lake Wobegon. That's not a, that's not West Point. So, so I think you, I think there are times you should quit. You should quit when there's something better you can do. But I don't always think that we're an emotionally, like, uh, clear-eyed frame of mind to make those decisions. And, and so I, I also think we should be careful not to quit too early.

• 30:12Chuck Nice?

  You know, that's great. And I, I think your, um, your economic analogy of opportunity cost is really, um, very useful because when the cost of doing something greatly outweighs the benefits gleaned from doing it, or the returns, it's, it's no longer enjoyable. And so what you've done is taken that from a numbers standpoint and put it into human terms. Basically, look, if this is like not fun and you're not getting anything out of it, and you're not getting any better, and you're never gonna be with... Maybe it's time.

• 30:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It is time.

• 30:49Chuck Nice?

  Very good.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's exactly what it comes down to.

• 30:53Chuck Nice?

  Awesome.

• 30:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right.

• 30:54Chuck Nice?

  All right, here we go. This is Eric Varga from Facebook, and Eric says, Hello, Dr. Tyson and Dr. Duckworth. I am a middle grade science and social studies teacher. Congratulations, and good for you.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:09Chuck Nice?

  One of the greatest issues facing our education system is the stigma surrounding failure and intelligence. Every year, I and my colleagues have students that help, that we help overcome learned helplessness. What are some of the best practices that teachers and school systems can implement that could help students achieve success beyond the framework of standardized tests?

• 31:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This sounds like it's right down the center line of your project for which you're CEO of character building. I mean, what's the term Chuck used? There's a term there.

• 31:46Chuck Nice?

  Learned helplessness is what he helps overcome.

• 31:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Learned helplessness. Angela, what is learned helplessness?

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll zone in on that. Like, I'll zoom in. I guess I'll zoom in on that. So one of the scientific advisors to Character Lab, this nonprofit I help run, is Marty Seligman, and he coined the term learned helplessness about 50 years ago. So Marty's a psychologist who was, at the time, he was studying dogs, and he was doing these random assignment experiments where, for example, some dogs got painful electric shocks, and they had a harness, but they had a button in front, like a panel, that if they leaned forward far enough, their button would touch the panel, and then the panel would just, like, terminate the shock. So you couldn't control that the shocks were going to start, but you could end them, right? So that's a group of dogs. Then there was another group of dogs.

• 32:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So this is 50 years ago, when you could do experiments like that?

• 32:38Speaker 02

  You know, he's a total dog lover, I have to say. There's like, I can't even, like, explain these studies without...

• 32:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Pita Pita wasn't invented yet.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  You know, Marty would point out, by the way, that these were not... Harmful, they were just painful. So anyway, I don't know if that makes it feel any better. But, um, but.

• 32:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Innocent thousand volt shock, that's all.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, he might also point out that like lots of people are doing these studies. But anyway, these dogs, so the point is that these dogs, there's another group of dogs that are what's called yoked to the first group of dogs. And that means that they are experiencing the same pattern of shocks, so the same schedule. So when shock goes on in one cage, it goes on the other. Then when one dog with the harness and the button turns it off, that other dog is sitting in another cage, can't see the first dog, but like all of a sudden the shock goes off. So if you're in that second group, all you experience is like shock comes on, shock goes off. Shock comes on, shock goes off. You have no control. And what Marty discovered is that the dogs in the cages that had no control over even terminating the shock, right? They have no control over anything, just like bad stuff

• 33:40Speaker 02

  happens seemingly at random. They developed learned helplessness. They had a kind of, um, basically it was like dog depression, right? Like they, they weren't eating right, they weren't sleeping right. And the most important thing was when you put the dog that just has had this experience of like things happen to you, you can't control them, you give them another situation, you put them in a different cage, and you allow them to actually, you know, escape the shock, because you know, you unharness them, they, they kind of like lie down and they don't, they don't try. And that was learned helplessness. You learn that you're helpless. And I think a lot of teachers, like middle school teachers, they see this happening, you know, not with electric shocks, but they see kids fail things. And then for the kids, they learn that they can't do anything.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  They're like, look, I like, I can't do math. I'm not like a math person. It's just like, it's just impossible.

• 34:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, Chuck, it's clear Angela's making the case for electric shocks in elementary. Which by the way, by the way. That's what she said. I am a hundred percent for it. She just said that. Chuck, Chuck, I heard her say that.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Who's on you guys? This is where rumors get started.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  You guys have just arranged this whole episode.

• 34:51Chuck Nice?

  All I'm saying is.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  That I could tee up Chuck for that.

• 34:53Chuck Nice?

  Where do they get the best? That's what I want.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. You want to order them immediately.

• 35:00Chuck Nice?

  That's.

• 35:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But it means such a thing exists and that's.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, have you guys ever felt that way about anything? Or maybe not, because maybe you're more like the resilient, you know, like individuals that Marty has studied. Like, do you, do you identify at all with that story? Are you kind of like, oh, yeah, I kind of felt like that once or not really?

• 35:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I feel helpless on Twitter.

• 35:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just learned.

• 35:21Chuck Nice?

  It's funny though, but.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  Because bad things happen and you have no control over them?

• 35:25Chuck Nice?

  I think it's very interesting that the way it's, the way the experiment is presented, you know, it's persistent and pervasive. I think everybody has that.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  You know about Marty's research if you're, if you're, if you're, you're using Marty's words, right? Like that, that like when adversity happens and you perceive it to be persistent, like this is not ending and pervasive, it's like, it's like it, it seems like everything in your life is going wrong. I mean, and those are really like the cognitive hallmarks of depression, right? You're like, I can't do anything. It's everywhere. It's everything that's not going to end.

• 36:03Chuck Nice?

  Because I think we all have that experience in some way. But what gives us the ability to take charge or to say that we will change is that we don't have the overwhelming depression. Uh, we're not bearing that like there's nothing I can do. We actually, because and also we've also had successes in the past.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  I think that is really truly like, you know, I don't want to oversimplify things, but like small mastery experiences, like small wins. I mean, just to answer this eighth grade teacher's, uh, and, you know, question a little more directly, like, you know, took a little, I took a little bit of the long route getting there. But I really do think you have to engineer like small wins for young people so that.

• 36:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But Angela, they've already done that and it's handing out trophies for everything.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Those are, I am not a big fan of like participant trophies.

• 36:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But this is what it is. It's, it's, there are no losers. Everyone is a winner.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  I mean, guess how you feel about that.

• 37:04Chuck Nice?

  This is awesome. You guys are, are you guys, I think you're like telepathically connected to these questions.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Oh, is that like the next thing?

• 37:12Chuck Nice?

  Let's move into the next question.

• 37:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, okay. Chuck, we'll do exactly that when we come back for the third and final segment of StarTalk Cosmic Queries, the grit edition, when we return.

• 37:36Chuck Nice?

  Hey, we'd like to give a Patreon shout out to the following Patreon patrons, Dakota McCreary and Maxwell Fritag. Guys, thank you so much for your support. What would we do without you? Well, we'd have a show, but it just wouldn't be as good. And if you, listening, would like your very own Patreon shout out, please go to patreon.com/stargtloradio and support us.

• 38:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back. StarTalk Cosmic Queries, the grit edition, with Angela Duckworth, one of the world's experts. I'm gonna say the world's expert. Would you agree, Chuck?

• 38:20Chuck Nice?

  I would, indeed.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Well, not on everything. Maybe on grit.

• 38:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  On grit, on grit.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 38:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what do you do? Just before the break, you mentioned that small successes can help prevent you from falling into some kind of achievement funk, where you might think that you will never achieve. But in the limit of that, you're getting trophies and medals, and you're getting complimented under circumstances that in a previous generation would have never been warranted. So Chuck, you had a question that was exactly that?

• 38:53Chuck Nice?

  Yes. You guys really teed up Miriam Masarykova. Miriam Masarykova says, wants to know this. Hey, Dr. Tyson. Hey, Dr. Duckworth. I'm wondering if there is any relationship between grit and self-esteem. So now this goes to small wins, participation trophies, and, you know, is there something to do with how you feel about yourself that propels you to keep going?

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Alright, so here's the answer. I think grit is more related to self-efficacy than self-esteem. And I think this is the difference between getting participant trophies for being like eighth out of eighth or like anything you do, like you know, your parents give you a standing ovation. I don't believe in any of that. You know, that is all about like, let's make this person have-

• 39:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, did you have kids?

• 39:47Speaker 02

  I do. I have a nineteen-year-old, well, almost nineteen, and a, let's just say eighteen and seventeen. I shouldn't round up.

• 39:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So did you give them standing ovations for their school play?

• 39:55Speaker 02

  I am pretty sure that if my girls came in here, like, they would tell you that I was the opposite of the parent who was like, "Everything is great, like, you're perfect." That's like what grandparents do. But, but, but I did actually experience this with them because they would also be, you know, living American life and like, there would be eighth place ribbons for being eighth out of eighth, which I didn't think was necessary or helpful. But I think the difference is this, right? When I say small wins, I'm not saying like, praise your kid for drinking their orange juice in the morning. What I'm saying is, if you have a kid who's struggling, let's say with math or, you know, foul shots, whatever it is they're struggling, you know, a great parent and a great coach and a great teacher, they all do the same thing, which is they figure out,

• 40:38Speaker 02

  what is a challenge that is smaller than the one that this kid consistently fails? That is a stretch, but that they, they're likely to be able to master with some support. And there was this Russian psychologist named Vygotsky, who thought that that was basically the recipe for development through childhood, which is that you're a little kid, you're three years old, you can't reach something, but with a little bit of assistance, you might be able to reach just this much higher. And that's, that's the thing that you need to do. You have to like, break down things that students are not doing well consistently into smaller, more manageable parts.

• 41:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This means as a teacher or as a coach, you actually have to get to know your students.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  It's a lot of work, by the way.

• 41:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, you have to work for that. Angela, not reasonable.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was this like- I mean, yeah, I know. This is a lot of work.

• 41:26Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. The next thing you'll be telling me is that I need to parent my children instead of just letting the tablet do it.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, right? It's getting, it's starting to be unreasonable, right?

• 41:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah, don't be unreasonable.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  I mean, it's not only a lot of work. I have to say, it takes a lot of skill. I remember listening to this interview with a a US Olympic, like gymnast, gymnastic coach, right? And I'm sorry that I can't remember the name. Wasn't like Bella Carolla or anything, but the interviewer said, like, what is the secret to, like, training these, you know, athletes to, like, Olympic gold medals? And they were like, the secret to everything is to be able to break things down, and then break them down again, and then break them down again, so that it, so that, so that it's tractable, right? And I think that's, that, that will lead to self-efficacy, which is the belief that you can do something if you try, as opposed to self-esteem, which is that you are just great. Like, you know, like, and I think that's a big difference.

• 42:19Chuck Nice?

  Excellent, excellent, excellent, excellent. Well, I gotta tell you, I just wish Angela was like every guest that we ever had, because every time you say something, it leads to another question, which means I don't have to go searching.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  No one's ever gonna believe that I don't actually know these questions.

• 42:34Chuck Nice?

  I know, it's amazing. It's amazing. I love it. Okay, so Cara Cle from Facebook says this. What does the science say about grit in different generations? Popular opinion suggests that young people, whether we define them as millennials, or Gen Z, or even younger, lack the resilience of older generations. But is it really true?

• 42:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's right.

• 42:58Chuck Nice?

  And if so...

• 42:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't wake them the way they used to.

• 43:01Chuck Nice?

  And if so...

• 43:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Get off my lawn.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  Not old enough to say that.

• 43:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Get off my lawn. I'm older than that.

• 43:07Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. And if so...

• 43:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Back in my day.

• 43:11Chuck Nice?

  Is it because society is changing? Or is it because grit is developed and fine-tuned over one's lifetime? And therefore, younger people will always appear to be less resilient regardless of the generational identity?

• 43:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, so that'd be a delusion of older people, that they had grit when the younger generation doesn't.

• 43:32Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 43:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Angela, what is it?

• 43:34Chuck Nice?

  And by the way, it's Dr. Cara Blakely from Ohio, who goes by Cara.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, Dr. Blakely, this is a 10 out of 10 question. I was like, they should just get a little prize for having such a sophisticated, thoughtful question, which almost answers itself, right? Because it says, look, there's two possibilities, right?

• 43:49Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  If you grew up in the 50s. You know culturally, you know, maybe you're different, right? Than somebody who grew up in, you know, the millenniums, the millennials or. But, but here's the answer. The short answer is nobody knows because I don't have a time machine and I, I can't go back and measure these generations of people who came before. So that's a really short answer. I don't know, right? But the longer answer is scientists are debating like how much of like people's personalities is generational, right? So there is this idea of generation me, like narcissistic, you know, inflated self-esteem, et cetera. But there are scientists who are on both sides of this debate and they publish papers saying their own sides. My guess is though, in terms of this, you know, what's the ratio?

• 44:33Speaker 02

  Say there are generational changes, which I just told you, like I can't go back in time and measure, but let's assume that there are. My guess is that more of it is from maturation than from core, you know, like the decade that you were born in. And it is really hard to be 50, which is how old I am. And like, look at a 20 year old and it's really hard to remember what I was like when I was 20. So, so often we're like, God, what's wrong with you? You know, you grew up in the wrong generation, but really they're just 20. They're like literally half your age, less than half your age.

• 45:05Chuck Nice?

  Right, right.

• 45:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But it is funny, I remember thinking when I was 21, yeah, I was badass. And now I look back and I say, I didn't know shit about anything.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Right. I mean, like most of us were just total idiots when we were younger, but we forget.

• 45:18Chuck Nice?

  I know, I think you're right. Well, it's a fantastic question, I have to tell you.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  I know. I have to just, I would like to just put a little gold star next to that question.

• 45:25Chuck Nice?

  Thank you, Cara Clay or Dr.

• 45:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And Cara, with that gold star, you'll do even better next time.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 45:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You've been encouraged to take that little increment.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Another step, we want to see an even more sophisticated question next time.

• 45:39Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely. All right, let's move on to Ursula Lawrence. Ursula Lawrence from Facebook says, did either of you ever learn to grit it out as a child? Or did that come later on? Now, I ask this for selfish reasons. One. I grew up under the auspices of tough it out. All right.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  Wait, you're now speaking personally. You're not.

• 46:07Chuck Nice?

  Are you saying you or the person? This is me personally.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Okay, all right. I just didn't know.

• 46:10Chuck Nice?

  This is why I'm asking Ursula's question because I want to know if my parents were bad parents. And am I a bad parent? Because I was raised that way. I am a tough it out kind of parent. Which means if it ain't that bad, you need to handle it on your own. Don't come to me. That's the way my parents did. Now, people, when I say that to people. They like. What's wrong with you? Other parents at the park look at me like I am out of my fricking gourd. Because.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Well, give me an example, Chuck. Give me an example. And also like, how old is the kid? Like, give me really specific.

• 46:44Chuck Nice?

  All right, six years old girl.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:46Chuck Nice?

  Okay. I am a proponent of reinforcing that she is able to do whatever she wants to do. And that means I cannot come to her aid every single time she is having difficulty.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:01Chuck Nice?

  So she's climbing the wall at the park. They have a rock climbing wall. Okay. She gets up to a certain point and I notice she always stops and comes back down. I know it's because she's afraid to go any higher than that.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:14Chuck Nice?

  So I go over and I say, you know, you can make that, right? You can go ahead and you can make that. Well, go up to the top and grip my hand. I can't do that. But you can make that. Go ahead and do it. I'm telling you. We have some pushback back and forth because she's scared. She does it. And then she's like, I did it. Wah, like, right? Yeah, right? Now, when the pushback was happening, the other moms were looking at me like, oh, he's one of those. Yeah, he's one of those like pushy sports dads. He's a pushy sports dad.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And they were tsk tsking.

• 47:52Chuck Nice?

  And they were tsk tsking me and they were like looking and you know, plus I'm the only black dude there. And my.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  So they were trying not to look like they were just tisking.

• 48:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  Probably, right, yeah.

• 48:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  Secretly just tisking. Look, demanding is good.

• 48:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's what was done to me.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, demanding is good, you know, obviously. So that story tells me that, you know, you weren't asking your daughter to do something which was impossible. Right, like you're asking your daughter to go just a little farther than she was comfortable. And you knew that without you, you know, encouraging her, like, like she wouldn't. And I think that's exactly what this Russian psychologist, Vygotsky, meant. It's like kids need to be asked to do things that are just, like, just beyond their reach. And Vygotsky also said, it's like just what you, like, can't you do, but if you had support, you would be able to do. Right, so just, you know, imagine the visual picture of your six-year-old daughter trying to reach something. Right, and it's four inches away, but you give her, like, it's just a little bit.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  And I think that's what, and then they, then they're like, oh, I can do it. And, and Vygotsky, well, it was Russian, but the term and translate would be like scaffolding. Like, that's what parents are there to do, to be demanding, but also to provide, you know, the, the support, just so that it's not, it's not impossible. And I, I, I agree with you. You know, the one thing about parents judging other parents is that from the outside, you can't really tell whether somebody's being, you know, too demanding, not demanding enough. You know, they, they just not enough information. So if I just saw you in the park, parenting your little girl, honestly, I wouldn't be able to tell you what parenting style you had, because there's too much, like, context and so forth. But as a parent, you yourself know everything, and I think you just have to ask yourself, like, am I being demanding enough?

• 49:38Speaker 02

  And am I being supportive enough?

• 49:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so the key point here is Chuck knew that this little increment that her daughter, his daughter was afraid of, that she could do it if she tried.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It was not an impossible task.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  He knew.

• 49:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Grow wings and fly, fly to the top. It was this little extra increment, which became that much more of an achievement for her, the fact that you didn't help her.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Right, exactly. And that's the difference between that and a participant ribbon also, right? Because that's just giving a person a ribbon for not stretching, right? And, and it makes all the difference.

• 50:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So getting back to the question, I would say for me. I didn't need grit in doing what I love to do.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  Hmm, which is physics.

• 50:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, just science.

• 50:20Chuck Nice?

  The cosmos.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  So you didn't have to use discipline because you just wanted to do it?

• 50:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I just wanted to do it. I derive pleasure from the act of doing it and learning more. So at no time could I or would I have ever called that grit.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There are other things that, I had a really hard job one summer when I was in high school. Wasn't paid very much. A camp junior counselor. But we did all kinds of other things and it was, it was a nightmare. But I thought, I realized that there's a point where it ends, you know, the summer ends, the days go by. I felt like the prisoner putting X's on the calendar.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, there's a point where this ends. And so I needed some grit.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Well, let me, you can use the word grit however you want, honestly. But like, when I say grit, the reason I say passion and perseverance is that I really do think that gritty people, they're not using a lot of self-control to do what they're doing. They're doing it because they do love it.

• 51:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  For me, grit is something goes wrong and do you recover from that?

• 51:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, I don't want to define a word that you wrote a book on, but that's how.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  You can do that. I mean, I, I think that's like stamina is, is like, you know, keeping going when you're not, you know, when things are going wrong. And it's like staying engaged. I mean, you know, like Isaac Newton and Einstein, they both said that like the behind their genius, they probably didn't say it was genius, but whatever, like behind their accomplishments, that was, that they were still trying to solve the same problems. And to your point, that only happens when you intrinsically are interested. Um, all I really mean by grit is the sustained, you know, over time part.

• 51:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, uh, also, I used to wrestle. I wrestled for like eight years of my life. And that is the single hardest physical thing I've ever done.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 52:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so, and by the way, anyone who has wrestled will say exactly that same sentence.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 52:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If you haven't wrestled.

• 52:12Chuck Nice?

  Does that count, does that count emotionally? Like when you've wrestled with things emotionally, like, like I have for so very long?

• 52:20Speaker 02

  Or wrestled with what, to order for lunch or all kinds of wrestling, it's all the same.

• 52:25Chuck Nice?

  I've wrestled a lot of things.

• 52:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I don't know if, I don't know if it's the same. We have to ask Angela about that.

• 52:29Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 52:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But I just, I just know that I, um, if you've never wrestled and you've done any other sport, you could list. A dozen other sports there, but if you've wrestled, your answer will be wrestling. And I've done that experiment and it's really there. So in terms of just the physical exhaustion and the physi- how fit you have to be.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  So what would your life be like if you hadn't wrestled? Like, what's the hypothetical?

• 52:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, good question. There are many places I would have just given up. Because I said, I don't have the energy to complete this.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Hmm, even though you loved what you did?

• 53:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, for other things where, let's say, there are things sometimes you have to do if you don't completely love it.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  That's what I wanted to say. So even though you love what you do so much, right? There's some things where you're like, oh, God, I want to give up. Or like, oh, God, I don't want to do this.

• 53:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm going to quote a famous writer who I don't remember, who said, "I like having written."

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. You know what? Writers say those things all the time. They're always whining about how hard it is to write.

• 53:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So they're just, I mean, I had a column every month for Natural History Magazine, damn near killed me.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The deadline just creeps up. It's like monsters coming at you.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  How about your bestselling book? How much work was that?

• 53:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That was a collection of essays I had written. But I remembered the effort of every single sentence and the choice of words. And now I step back and look at it, yeah, that works together there. And that's a thing. What was a bigger effort was my war book, which I had a co-author, with 600 pages. And it was 10 years in the writing. And you say to yourself, this will never get finished. This will never get done. Of course, having done a PhD thesis, it also has a never-ending feel to it.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that's a...

• 54:12Speaker 02

  So was wrestling helpful during this?

• 54:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, yes, yes. Even when I'm not actually wrestling. So I think the idea that you're in a struggle and you overcome the struggle and it's one of the great struggles of your life. I agree with Chuck that it can apply in other dimensions to what the challenges are in your life. And then I've done that. So that's how I answer that question.

• 54:35Speaker 02

  I think that's why parents send their kids to, you know, do hard things. Not that they think they're going to be like professional wrestlers, for example, for example. Or professional, whatever.

• 54:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Challenges of life.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  It's challenges. Yeah, I agree.

• 54:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm reminded of Don Quixote, where there are, or at least in Man of La Mancha, the Broadway musical and the song.

• 55:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To, to reach the unreachable star, to move the immovable object, to fight the unbeatable foe. That if you, if you have, if you have struggled and you know what it is to struggle, even if you do not see the end in sight, you can tap that source of energy and inspiration and emotion to keep you going because you might succeed.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  Right, you can learn to strive, right?

• 55:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, there you go. That's the way, that's the, that's the way to say it. Learn to strive.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  Make into a Broadway musical.

• 55:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We gotta, we gotta, we gotta wrap this up. But I, I don't, Chuck, I don't think we have time for any more questions.

• 55:39Chuck Nice?

  No, we don't, but I gotta tell you something. One, two, three, four. I still have five pages.

• 55:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Pages?

• 55:46Chuck Nice?

  Five pages of questions.

• 55:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That means we come back to this topic. If Angela deigns to grant us another...

• 55:53Speaker 02

  They keep you out of the lab, Neil. You're gonna be like, "God damn it, I've got this burden." Named Angela Duckworth.

• 56:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We will totally bring her back because this is a very important subject for parents, for people who want to succeed, people trying to get out of the doldrums. So Angela, always good to have you. I get to say that because it's our second time.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  Because we're like friends.

• 56:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're totally there. Always good to have you. Chuck, you're there for us.

• 56:17Chuck Nice?

  Always a pleasure.

• 56:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, man. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. As always, bidding you to keep looking out.