Orlando Bloom on The Spirituality of Extremes: Chasing Fear, Embracing Risk & Navigating Fame

This week, I am joined by Orlando Bloom, renowned actor and spiritual seeker, to discuss the intersection of extreme sports, personal growth, and the art of balance. Orlando shares his profound experiences with wingsuiting, free diving, and rock climbing, revealing the delicate tension between discipline and surrender. He offers candid insights into his upbringing, his mother’s influence, Buddhism’s transformative power, and navigating the complexities of fame. The conversation explores the nuances of preparation, trust, and letting go, drawing parallels between these high-stakes pursuits and life’s journey. Orlando’s vulnerability shines through as he discusses the evolution of his relationship dynamics and his commitment to making a positive impact through his work with UNICEF. Please enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: LMNT: Science-backed electrolytes with everything you need and nothing you don’t. Get a FREE Sample Pack with any drink mix purchase 👉drinkLMNT.com/RICHROLL On: 10% OFF your first order of high-performance shoes and apparel w/ code RICHROLL10 👉on.com/richroll Bon Charge: Wellness products designed to help you sleep better, recover faster, and boost your overall well-being. Use code RICHROLL to save 15% OFF 👉 boncharge.com Birch: For 20% off ALL organic mattresses and 2 free eco-rest pillows visit 👉BirchLiving.com/richroll Momentous: Save up to 36% OFF your first subscription order of Protein or Creatine, along with 20% OFF all of my favorite products 👉livemomentous.com/richroll SriMu: Get 22% OFF artisanally crafted plant-rich cheeses w/ code RRP 👉SriMu.com Waking Up: Get a FREE month, plus $30 OFF mindfulness resources 👉Squarespace.com/RichRoll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉richroll.com/sponsors Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

  Eating well rarely falls apart because of one big failure. It's the daily question that wears you down. Like, what am I actually gonna make tonight? What's in the fridge? And it's exactly why we built the Plant Power Meal Planner. It's a personalized, plant-based meal planning program that matches you with recipes based on your taste, your allergies, your cooking skills, and how much time you actually have. You build, through this program, a balanced, nutrient-dense plan for your entire household in a few minutes. Then it generates a grocery list for you with one click that plugs right into our delivery partners. All the recipes in the program are built by dietitians with culinary training. Plus, you get your own food coach to help you problem-solve along the way.

• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Why am I doing a Rich Roll podcast? What have I got to say? What is there? There's nothing... This is insane. What are you doing?

• 1:11Rich Roll?

  My guest today is... Orlando Bloom!

• 1:13Speaker 01

  ...from films such as The Lord of the Rings, Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, as well as films such as Troy, Kingdom of Heaven, and Gran Turismo.

• 1:22Rich Roll?

  You're known all around the world. What do people not understand about what that experience is like?

• 1:28Speaker 01

  It's not an autograph. I was freaked out. Freaked out! It was crazy. It was bonkers.

• 1:38Rich Roll?

  His latest offering is To the Edge, a limited docu-series in which he shoulders three quite risky challenges: wingsuiting, freediving, and climbing.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  I felt my life was in my hands, and so I was terrified.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Pushing the edges showed me that coming back to the center is a blessing.

• 2:03Rich Roll?

  This one goes deep.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  I achieved more in my twenties than I thought I ever would, and I realized that most of those things that I thought was gonna make me happy didn't make me happy. I'm just so grateful for everything.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  You know, all of it.

• 2:25Rich Roll?

  Orlando, thank you for doing this, man. So nice to have you here. I'm thrilled to explore your life today. I enjoyed the show. I binged it last night.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  Thanks for watching.

• 2:35Rich Roll?

  And just delighted to learn a little bit more about who you are.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Thanks, man. Well, thanks for watching. I'm so grateful to be here. I will say I feel quite open and vulnerable at the moment with the, what with the show coming out, the first time I've done a unscripted and, and I of course read up on you a little bit as well. And you're amazing. And the people that you have on this show are like insanely amazing. Gives hope for society, actually, in many ways.

• 3:01Rich Roll?

  Trying to put a little positivity out there.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  What am I doing here?

• 3:04Rich Roll?

  Kind of. I mean, listen, you've, you've lived an extraordinary life. And although the, the facts of your background are very different from mine, you know, I think we share a lot of commonality in our proneness towards extremes and how pushing that edge can be a guru. It can be a way to explore darkness and light, you know, to kind of dance with the polarities. And I think your show really explores that. You know, I think I had two, I mean, first of all, it's great. I loved it. And there's two kind of like main takeaways on that, on a kind of top level, meta level from the show that I, that I, that resonated with me.

• 3:48Rich Roll?

  And the first is that like, you're a seeker and you're on this kind of path towards growth. And the show is a way of exploring kind of where you were at. I mean, that was like two years ago, right? When you actually filmed it? It was a while ago.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. A little less, but yeah. But in that window of about a year and a half, two years ago, yeah.

• 4:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But it, it's sort of this capsule that, that illustrates where you're at on this trajectory, which is an ongoing thing, right? So I guess the, that was my first takeaway. And I have questions about that. But the second one is really about, you know, these gifts that we find in, in exploring the extreme and, and how that

• 4:31Rich Roll?

  Is confronting for a lot of people who would say that you should be, you should really be aspiring to a life that is in balance. So I guess the first question I would have is like, when people say like, just be, live a balanced life. Can't you just like be in the middle a little bit? Like, for me, that ruffles my feathers. And I've, I've kind of gone full circle in how I process that. But I'm sure people say that to you.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, it's true. Don't disagree with any of that. Just find life to be more exhilarating on the outside of it, on the, on the edges of it. And actually, perhaps for me, and for us sometimes pushing our edge and stepping out to that place is where you appreciate the center, where you appreciate the middle ground. Because I would say in some ways, you know, I've been asked a few times what I would do again. Wingsuiting is one of the most exhilarating feelings. And I would love to, to, to get back up there with Luke or Jack. He was amazing. But I've sort of simplified a little bit in some ways.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  I'm like, I'm like, I'll keep doing these things and taking action. But like, I'm finding, taking action in my daily life, there are smaller things that just require bigger moments so that I'm, I'm going, oh, that's, just take action, keep doing it, keep doing what you're doing, keep moving forward. And actually pushing the edges show me that coming back to the center is, is a blessing.

• 6:04Rich Roll?

  Appreciating the mundanity, the small moments.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, which maybe I haven't historically.

• 6:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So dancing in the extremes allows you to appreciate the meaning that you find in the small moments of everyday life. Being a dad.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Being able to be super present.

• 6:23Rich Roll?

  All those sorts of things.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Like, being in the extremes forced this like uber presence. Like, if I wasn't supremely present to my experience in that moment, particularly with wingsuiting because of the position of the body in the suit and what's required, I felt my life was in my hands. And so I was like, Terrified and I was like never more alive and feeling exhilarated. And so when I come home now, it's sort of like, just keep being present. Just what's, how do I, how do I focus on, just how do I keep that presence alive and vital,

• 7:07Speaker 01

  right, in my life with my daughter, with my partner, with my family, with my friends, whatever, with, just with myself at times.

• 7:15Rich Roll?

  And the half-life of that experience persists. In other words, you had that experience like two years ago, but you're still able to be present with what it taught you and bring that into your life. Or do you feel like you have to still go out and, and, you know, taste that in order to be, be present with that experience so you can be present in the moment?

• 7:35Speaker 01

  I would say that I, it was a reveal about the nature of my way of looking at life and thinking and the sort of habits that I had become, had become like the habits that had become part of my life, the, the impulsive behavior, the impulsive nature of my life, you know, which is easy to kind of look back over my life and see the history and why, the wheres and whys and hows all of that happened. I think that like, it showed me that like, I don't have to be on the edge to live and feel like I'm on the edge, do you know?

• 8:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think extreme peak experiences like wingsuiting or freediving or the climbing that you did in the show can be these teachers. They are gurus, but they can also be like, the dark side of that is that they can be escapes. They're a way to numb yourself or to run away from, you know, mundane moments to escape from the self. You can use them as a portal to explore your interior self and what makes you you so that you can become the most authentic version of who you are. There's a self-actualization like piece to it. But I think also a lot of people use it as a way of running away from themselves.

• 8:55Rich Roll?

  And so, understanding that difference and knowing where you are on, I mean, all these things are on a spectrum, of course, like, am I using this to better myself, to become a more, you know, fully actualized Orlando? Or am I doing this because? I have a hard time being present in my life and I need these peak experiences in order to kind of tolerate, you know, the mundanity of the average life.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think you've just articulated it perfectly. Thank you so much. But yes, I think historically, my life was a lot of risk-taking, hence, you know, a multiple, you know, multiple visits to the hospital and a near loss of life at 20. And actually, that was a very re-centering thing for me. But yes, I think the impulsive nature of my thinking and behavior up until, I think, my desire for going into the show was to feel that in working with these experts in their fields, everyone from, you know, Luke Akins and Camila Jabbar and with Royal True Bridge

• 10:05Speaker 01

  and Moe Beck, amazing athletes. I was learning to unwire this impulsive nature and understand and respect that these, somehow we refer to these people as like adrenaline junkies and people think that, but they're actually the most present supremely focused athletes and people I've ever sort of come across, you know? Like Jack, who was on the ground in the show and he goes, you're not, when Monica, Luke's wife, says, you're afraid, and he goes, you're not afraid, you're excited. You know, that guy is like, that guy is doing the wingsuiting through the, through the passage.

• 10:46Rich Roll?

  Right. No, he's the dude, you know? And for people that don't know, Luke Akin, I mean, he's the goat, right? He's, this is the guy who jumped out of a plane at, what was it, like 20, 25,000 feet without a parachute and landed in that net.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  It's like, who does, I don't even think so doing that.

• 11:01Rich Roll?

  But he's great because he's so casual about the whole thing. And throughout the show or that episode, he's just throwing so much information at you so quickly. And there's a couple shots of you, like you, you have this sort of ghost power, like. Can I process all this? Like, I don't know if I can take it. Like, it's life or death stuff, too. And he's like, do this, do this, you'll be great. It's fine. Like, he's pretty... Mo with the climbing, she was the only one who was like, "Listen, dude, like, if you don't get this right, like, it's..."

• 11:30Speaker 01

  You're dead.

• 11:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're dead.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  You could die.

• 11:32Rich Roll?

  Like, she's giving you the truth. And Luke was just kind of making it like, this is all fun and games.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 11:38Rich Roll?

  Both of them incredibly prepared and methodical.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  And then I'd walk to the plane with Jack occasionally, and he'd be like, "Yeah, bub." He'd give me the few... So like, and Monica as well, by the way, who's Luke's other half, who happened to be training me as well for the skydiving aspect, was... Who was amazing. There was like, it was the trifecta with all of them. You're absolutely right about Luke. You've nailed that, and he is wonderful. And I couldn't have done it without him. But there was aspects of like Monica and Jack, both all tag teaming me in different ways with just a little word here or there. It was the trifecta that got me out of the plane, quite frankly.

• 12:14Rich Roll?

  Right. And the point being, like, we see these clips on Instagram. We were just talking about the wingsuit guy who like, wingsuited into a flying plane. Like, you see that, and it's just insane. And you can't help but think these people are on some kind of death mission.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:28Rich Roll?

  But their whole lives are devoted to the precision of this art and this sport that they're exploring. And you have to understand that. And like, your journey towards like appreciating the methodic way in which they've organized their entire lives in order to do this one thing is an antidote to the impulsivity that led you to fall off a three-story building and, you know, these other kind of adventures that have landed you in the ER probably more times than you wish to recall.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 12:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah. We've had Alex Honnold in here a couple times. And, you know, he always gets asked, like, about fear and his relationship with risk and... What you don't understand or can't appreciate and what Free Solo was so great at kind of elaborating on was just how precise he is and how prepared and how long it took him to get to that place. And certainly, it's still this unreal risk that he's taking, but his relationship to fear and risk is different because he knew every nook and crag of that entire wall and anticipated everything that he could. I mean, there's certainly variables outside of your control.

• 13:40Rich Roll?

  But he was as prepared as one could possibly be on planet Earth, matched with an unreal talent and level of preparation. And that's what doesn't get seen or appreciated.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  That's what you don't understand. I always, I kind of pointed that out in the press for the show. I was like, there's a 15 second clip that you see on any social media and people think, oh, I'll just try that. Bye, see you later. Nice life. You know, come back next time. Let's try again. It's, the dedication is insane and the focus and the commitment. So people say, are you going to do it again? I'm like, I wouldn't just, I can't, it's a lifestyle choice, you know, climbing, like finding a climbing buddy, finding something that, a team of people that you would want to go and do that with and then, you know, scheduling's making, or, you know, freediving, like I went a couple of times after and just on my own, I took my fins when we were on vacation. And, you know, I went down to maybe

• 14:34Speaker 01

  15, 20 meters, which was fine for me, but, but, you know, it was, it's not something, you know, anything can kind of go wrong. Do you know what I mean? You need somebody watching you and there's nothing, there's nothing light or casual about anything that you, that you do in these sports. Certainly with skydiving, you know, it's great to get my A license. I can just jump any, I could go jump right now, you know, that's awesome. But like wingsuiting, you know, I may be the first person to have jumped on 25 jumps in a wingsuit. You know, that's.

• 15:06Rich Roll?

  There is an insanity to that. You know, I mean, that was.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Going up in the plane was crazy.

• 15:11Rich Roll?

  The expedited schedule that you're on for all three of these disciplines is borderline, borderline reckless, you know? I mean, it really is. And I think for me, like watching the show. The thing that was most confronting.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  I'm borderline reckless.

• 15:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah. We're gonna get into it.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 15:27Rich Roll?

  You're feeling vulnerable, I'm gonna exploit that. The thing that was most confronting was, or that came up for me in watching it.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:38Rich Roll?

  Was control. Like, I have control issues, I have trust issues, and all three of these disciplines require so much trust in other people, and also in the gear.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:51Rich Roll?

  And when I saw you climbing, it's like, I don't trust that gear. I don't trust anything any of those people are telling me. They're way too casual about this. Like, I just could not imagine putting my... I've done some extreme things in a whole different, you know, realm.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:06Rich Roll?

  But in this context, you know, I had a real hard time. Like, I got queasy watching you climb. And I was trying to... I was like, I don't even understand how these ropes work. Like, is that really gonna help if he falls and all of that?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  And that I'm hanging on a nut. It's literally a nut, by the way. It's like, there's a small... It's like a metal ball, kind of, with a loop on it. And then you kind of put that into a crab, just pull it, and you're like, oh, okay, that holds. Okay, boom, okay, I'm off, off we go.

• 16:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  You know, and then, I mean, listen, there is obviously, in anything you do, you could cross the road and have that accident. But there was also taking responsibility for Mo, Mo's life.

• 16:46Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  That was massive. Really, really, really added a dimension that I hadn't expected. Because my life is one thing, right? But like, if I didn't get... And there is a movement and a physicality that years of muscle memory will teach you to do comfortably. But as she pointed out, like, people will climb, have climbed for two years before they attempt ancient art, right?

• 17:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  And I'm like...

• 17:16Speaker 01

  You know, not that experienced. So it was, it was the muscle memory. And I was like, am I going to be able to get this right, these knots? Have I done? And there was a couple of occasions.

• 17:26Rich Roll?

  It's complicated. There's a lot to remember. And the knots are, yeah, I'm watching that. I was like, I don't understand how any of this works.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:33Rich Roll?

  But I think the, like, I'm trying to understand, like, what the takeaways are, like, what is the, what is the metaphor for life in here? And I think there's something about the tension between, you know, willfulness, in other words, like, the preparation, like, what you can control, what Orlando can control. Like, I can do all the preparation, I can comport myself, I can be present, while also having to embrace, like, a deep level of trust and, and surrender. So it's like self-reliance, but also this, like, letting go, that I think is instructive in terms of life, as, as like a rulebook for life. Like, how do you find the balance between those two things?

• 18:18Rich Roll?

  Because all things, whether, you know, you have a goal that you're pursuing, or you're preparing for a role in a movie or on stage, you do the preparation, you control the controllables, and then there's like a letting go and, and like an allowing, right? Like, what is going to happen is going to happen. And for me to execute on this goal, I have to kind of let go of all of that and just be as present as I possibly can.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that, that's right. And all three disciplines required a certain, a different kind of preparation and focus and, and type of letting go, if you like. For example, dive was like, I was so, possibly more scared in dive than anything else, because I wondered if I would come back up. You know, I was like, am I just going to keep going? Because I'm so, I love it.

• 19:09Rich Roll?

  That's the one discipline where you can't push the edge, because you still have to get up. And even in, in a competition context, the best, when they rise to the surface and break the surface, they still have that little routine that they have to do. They have to recite their name or whatever it is. Yeah, they can't just pass out as they come to the top or they get disqualified. So you have to know how to.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  And that's the edges, the edges right there, two could be two feet from the top. That's the edge. It's not the bottom. The bottom is is halfway.

• 19:39Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  And it's and you've dropped all that way down, you know? And Will had had a pass, had had had a had had an attempt at like ninety meters, which should have been quite well. Who knows what's doable, but he'd had an attempt and had a blackout at the near the surface like couple of days before I was there. And I was like, wait, what? And I don't, historically, we were saying what we were touching on is my edge. What was my edge like impulsivity meant? I I had so many accidents because I didn't know I don't know boundaries. I don't know my edges. So this was what the show was teaching me. So the reason I was so scared with diving was I was I just didn't didn't know if I not knowing my edge. If I would come back up from that and not, you know what I mean?

• 20:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  And as Camila had pointed out, when you train for this, people will go to eighty meters. And then they'll go to eighty one meters and eighty two. They won't go from eighty to twenty, you know, eighty to eighty five, eighty five. It's like it's incremental. It's tiny increments and it's a huge level of training. And I I was doing this in four days.

• 20:42Rich Roll?

  Right. But you hit you hit thirty seven meters.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:47Rich Roll?

  That's pretty good, dude.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I joined the hundred foot club.

• 20:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. I've done a I I've flirted with freediving. I I did a one day thing. I was in Malta.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:58Rich Roll?

  In Gozo.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:00Rich Roll?

  You've been you did Troy there, right?

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did do Troy there.

• 21:02Rich Roll?

  Uh, and there was a guy there. He he's like a four time world champion. And so I spent the day with him and I did a lot of those breath work exercises that you see in the show.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:12Rich Roll?

  Um, and I'm pretty good at that. I have a swimming background. But I but when we got to the the water, I just couldn't figure out how to, you know, depressurize my head. Like the pressure, I couldn't clear it. And so I could only go like the breath was fine. It was it was like, um, what do you call that when you're trying to like?

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Equalizing.

• 21:32Rich Roll?

  Equalizing, yeah, equalizing. I couldn't I could not. I couldn't equalize. And you ended up like injuring your ear like by blowing too hard or whatever.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Pushed too hard and that's that was and that was that was like really confronting with. You know, okay, this is my body and my body will not has there's some there's a gate. There's a gate that's being held. There's a there's a there's a boundary being put in place by my body, which historically I've never.

• 21:58Rich Roll?

  Well, your body is saying like, not so fast, buddy. Yeah, like this. This is a longer road.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like to think the universe, but my body too. Yeah. I mean, speaking of breathwork that you did when when I did the death pet table.

• 22:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  That was that was next.

• 22:17Rich Roll?

  That took you to a different place. You you travel, dude, because that it suddenly there was like this surge of emotion that came over.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  I was like, wait, what? I literally, I was like, I don't know what I just went into, but it was life and death related. And I was like, and I keep thinking, well, why didn't I stop? The funny thing is like, like, my buddy was like, well, why did why did you keep doing? Because I'm like, that's, I won't stop. Yeah, that's part of what I had to.

• 22:48Rich Roll?

  But where does that come from? Like, where does that default setting? How did that get installed? Where does the impulsivity derive from? Like, what happened? What happened when you were a kid that that like formed you in that way?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Um, so from zero to seven is when we get imprinted, probably quite extremely, right? So my mother is amazing. My mother is one of the greatest opportunities and for my growth and loves me like crazy, but is also like was in boarding school the age of four in India when her in England, when her parents lived in India. So that's kind of a unique situation in terms of like, if you imagine like what her understanding of nurture would be, right? So I'll give you two a couple of quick stories, which, you know, I will preface with I my mother is remarkable and has given me life. And this

• 23:41Speaker 01

  is why I feel so blessed, right? And and all of this. And and thank you and grateful. And my next door neighbors were Irish family, the McAvoy's. And I remember the mother saying, Jesus Christ, I used to see you crawling over the rockery when you were when you're an infant and thinking, that woman's gonna kill that child. Because like, you know, that was my life. And before the age of four, I was in and out of hospital. Um, I think, and my mom, my mom has said to me, which she probably like regrets now in some ways, but I think it's sort of interesting that that actually they said, uh, do you love yourself? Cause if he's back in hospital again, we're going to have to think about what's going on. Because I fell out of a tree and broke my arm.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  I think she was picking wood up in the garden and I'd like, my head was banging against uh, this uh aluminium frame that she was carrying me on her back with. So I cracked my skull, I fell off a stool and cracked my skull. I mean, you know, this is, this is before I'm conscious enough. So right, so if you think like, and then when I broke my back at twenty, uh, I went to see the school therapist because I was, it was a near death experience that had profoundly, you know, impacted my life and thinking in, in ways that I probably, like I'm, I'm like, I'm like a can do guy. I'm like, like I can push through anything because my mom used to give me, you can do it. What my mom gave me, so you can do it. And I'm like, do it, you know what I mean?

• 25:10Speaker 01

  So I had that attitude of everything. But when I had this therapy session, it was like, um, so have you been injured before? And I was like, yeah, and I went through the list, which is like on both hands. Yeah. You can add it up.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  And she was like, hmm, so there's a, a pattern we could say. And I was like, I suppose there's a pattern. And it was so, it was through that pit process of counselling at the school and realising that I'd had a pattern of, of, of every couple of years, nearly like breaking or doing something that was very, you know, that led to me being in hospital or close, you know, that I was like, oh, oh, is this attention from my looking, what am I looking for here? You know, what is it that I've not been getting, right? What is it that's missing? And so in a way, you know, you know, is the show all about one big attention? It was like, is my li- is my whole life like one giant scream for attention? Right, right, right, right.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  But like, I know, you know, through the years of therapy and the years of different ways of thinking that, yeah, of course, on one level. But like, I think there were so many, you know, levels to all of this thinking. But I think. You know, what is the takeaway for somebody who's gonna watch this? Who's maybe had all of their own stuff, right? Because we're all like on this journey, right? We're all, I believe, interconnected and having this experience. And, you know, we're little satellites going around. We're little, you know, if you, if you broke us all ourselves down, wouldn't we be about the same as a galaxy anyway, right? So I see us as little galaxies running in and out of each other, right?

• 26:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  So it's like, I don't know, I just was like, well, maybe anything I do here, pushing my ledge, edge will be something where somebody goes, well, I ain't doing that. That's crazy. Okay, don't, don't jump out of a plane. I'm not suggesting you do that. But what is that edge for you? Find that edge and do that so that maybe you can come back to center. I'm not saying live in that space. And I'm also not suggesting that I wasn't blessed enough to have amazing teachers, as we've just said, help guide me through it. But I do like the idea of, of, of taking myself out of my comfort zone. And like, that's kind of why I'm sitting here, honestly. Because in a way, it's the last thing I wanted to do is being vulnerable on a camera. And that's why I haven't done podcasts.

• 27:29Rich Roll?

  You're new to podcasting.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 27:31Rich Roll?

  Uh, well, you're here right now. I'm gonna push you out to the edge of your comfort zone. Because there's always growth there, dude. You are a seeker. Let's seek together.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 27:40Rich Roll?

  What are we gonna, what are we gonna discover?

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Listen, you've got a lot more interesting people. You've been seeking a lot more interesting subjects on this.

• 27:47Rich Roll?

  I think to your point of we all are imprinted on some level at a very young age, based upon how we were parented and, and how we kind of just came in genetically into the world. I mean, there's, there's truth in that. And, you know, I share that, that, um, uh, you know, that desire for, for approval. And then also like never quite feeling like I was getting it, which fuels more and more and more and more extreme behavior. You know, that led me.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Then you feel like the imposter.

• 28:14Rich Roll?

  Well, oh, yeah.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  It's like Rumi says, right?

• 28:16Rich Roll?

  Orlando, they're gonna, they're gonna come in here and drag me out of here before this podcast is over, trust me.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  They'll get me first, don't worry. I'll, I'll say, take me.

• 28:25Rich Roll?

  People pleasing, you know, being a chameleon, who do you need me to be? You know, that I had a whole, you know, kind of dark exploration in substances. Anything to check out and extreme sports can be a version of that. But I do think that you've leveraged this for growth. So where did the impulse to be on this, you know, journey towards, towards growth come from? Like, it's one thing to be an extreme sport athlete and be attracted to that, like a moth to the flame. It's another thing to say, I want to grow, I want to evolve and I'm, I'm game for anything that's gonna, you know, help me expand. Like, I feel like that is a default setting that you have.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that, that, that's, that started a lot, long time before the show though, right?

• 29:12Rich Roll?

  Sure, I mean, yeah, this dates back, I don't know when that began. Do you have a sense of when that kind of came online for you and why?

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Probably surprisingly young. I think I just, I wanted to be not where I was in some ways. Or I wanted to be, like, I had this, it's so funny, like, I grew up with a lot of,

• 29:34Speaker 01

  watching a lot of American style TV and shows and stuff like that in, in, in England. But, and I think like, there's aspects of, you know, my childhood that were, would, would, would challenge me in, in different ways. And I had a very happy childhood in many ways, like a really solid, middle-class upbringing, really beautiful home, lots of, but there was, there's something that I, that meant I wanted to be away. I wanted to get somewhere else. Like, I remember envisioning in this, I was in this, in the, in the, in the gym at school and I imagined myself flying in as Superman to grab my girl and then this, this girl who I had a crush on, when I was nine years old, I was gonna fly out with her or something. So I had all these, I think in some weird ways, because of the backstory of my father, which is very complex.

• 30:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Has been talked about a lot, but. I didn't, you know, I had this idea of who my father was because my mother had told me that my father was Harry Bloom. And then I

• 30:27Rich Roll?

  Who was a civil rights activist in South Africa, like an anti apartheid activist, right?

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a hero in my mind.

• 30:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  He'd written a book called Transvalve Episodin, who was in prison with Nelson Mandela, who was like this hero in my mind. So until I'm 13, I've like got this heroic view of a man. That like my mom has given me a little bit, but my imagination is just, you know, I have no idea who that guy was, you know what I mean?

• 30:51Rich Roll?

  Right, he passed away when you were four, right? And he was gone even before that, right? So you never really had a

• 30:57Speaker 01

  He was there, he was present, but he was in the house, but I have one memory of that. So I think I had this idea, I had create, my imagination had created an idea of a man, right? That was based on the framework of who Harry Bloom was. And then my father, who was in my life, but I didn't know he was my father, he was my legal guardian. Um, who is like, I have just a wonderful relationship with, um, still and, and continue to. He was in business with my mother, but he was also like, he was younger. He was 10 years younger than my mother and he was in an office in the bottom of the house, like trying to build this business out, a foreign language school.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  And I'd sort of see him at weekends and we'd go and like walk and build like huts and then I'd, you know, stay, stay with him for weekends. But I think he was struggling as well. His, his own masculinity was struggling at that time. We're trying to build a business, not being with my mom probably, or being confused about whatever that was, he was 24 when he

• 31:57Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  You know, well

• 31:58Rich Roll?

  And it was a consensual thing that he would, that he would father you, like it's a complicated weird thing, right?

• 32:04Speaker 01

  I have no straight answer for you on any of all that.

• 32:07Rich Roll?

  You still don't know the answer?

• 32:10Speaker 01

  There's, there's my mother's story.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  And then there's, you know, and then there's history, there's a lot of, there's a lot of ambiguity.

• 32:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, ambiguity, but that created a lot of uncertainty, I would imagine, being a young kid trying to figure out, you know, where you feel safe.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:27Rich Roll?

  But also, like, this incredibly eclectic household. I mean, it sounds like your mom was really supportive and she was able to see that you had this imagination and this artistic sensibility and she really fueled that, like, she really supported that.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  She was like, fully throwing everything. My mom was the one who got me to do Bible classes, Bible reading and like, so there was the Kent Festival, which was a Canterbury Festival where you do poetry, prose, Bible reading, and I did all of them and I won all the competitions and I was a kid and like, basically got the cups and I was like, yay, I did it, I mean, I did it, you know. She was the one who was like, took me to, drove me to teachers who were like, this is how you recite this poem, this is how you say this piece of text, this is, this is how you read this piece from the Bible. And, you know, then you would like, sit in front of like, teachers, or not teachers, but judges, and then you'd see if you came first, second, or third, you know.

• 33:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you were naturally good at that, or you got good at it pretty quick.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  I was probably good and I also worked at it and I, and it was something that kind of gave me, that was a really strong foundation. Although I will say that I had terror when it came to stage fright, you know, and if you, like, just before this, I'd been wrecked coming down here in the Carbra. You know, I mean, I've been like,

• 33:44Speaker 01

  and if I have to, if I have to say anything publicly, you know, which is random because here we are without a script, I'm like, I'm just gonna put my foot in my mouth, oh god.

• 33:53Rich Roll?

  You still feel that way. You're very charming, though. You should, you know, it's not rational that you feel that way, you know that.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Well, there you go. There's nothing very rational about who I am, but I live it, you know. But it's like, I don't, I don't know that, I think that's part of what it is as well, was looking at like, the emotion versus the rationale, right? And then if you think, you know, I mean, I can unpack all of this, but it's not really a therapy session, is it? I don't know.

• 34:19Rich Roll?

  I don't know, maybe it is.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  But it's like.

• 34:21Rich Roll?

  But I think there's, there's, there's. Instructive aspects of this story. There's a lot that's instructive about this. I mean, I think

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Is it helpful?

• 34:28Rich Roll?

  I think, I think, understanding that, that, that your mom was so supportive and saw this in you and realized like this is, this is, this is what needs to be nurtured in this kid. And to see you kind of thrive and, and, and, you know, ascend in that world, so much so that you ended up leaving school or leaving home at like 16, right? So you're in London, you're just a kid.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Well, I went to boarding school at 11, actually.

• 34:51Rich Roll?

  Oh, 11. So you were out of the house. You were like, you were having to take care of yourself at a very early age. So I mean, that, that seems to me to be related to the question of like, what instigated this desire to be on this growth journey? Like you had to, you had to figure things out for yourself.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. That's true. I've had to, I definitely went on a, I've been on a long journey of self-discovery.

• 35:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:31Rich Roll?

  As much as we try to learn about ourselves through peak experiences and extreme sports and the like, the hardest lift and the most courageous act is to understand that the, the real answers that you're searching for are really not going to be found there. And they're going to be found only by going inward. And none of us really want to do that. You know, that's a very challenging, inconvenient thing to do.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  It's kind of lonely. It can be quite lonely, that process.

• 36:00Rich Roll?

  Well, because it's, it's on you and you alone, you know? And there's nobody telling you that you have to. I know I listened to your podcast with Trevor Noah, and you said something along the lines of how, how Katie, your partner, is, is sort of demanding your evolution, or not, that's the wrong word, demanding, but like, is, is pushing you, right? To always be growing. And that's, you know, Julie's here, like, that's something that, that I think we share. And, and that is a fantastic thing to have in your life. Somebody who sees you for who you are, who holds a vision for the better, you know, aspects of you and can see how you can be better and is not willing to just accept you for who you are, but is expecting you to

• 36:44Rich Roll?

  To, you know, grow in lockstep, but it also makes it difficult. You know, it's hard. Who wants to do that? It's a choice, right? Nobody's saying you have to do that. You have a great life and so it would be easy to coast, right? It's all good. I don't have to do all this other shit.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I can't do that. The balance of life is for me in, you know, putting myself in other positions. I feel, I mean, one of the things that I'm most grateful for really is, is, is the opportunity to work with UNICEF, which I've had for 20 years now. And I think the first thing I said to UNICEF basically was, I said, I'll, I'll go anywhere nobody else wants to go. I was like, you can send me there. You know, if they don't like, you know, the, the worst places, I'll go there. Cause I'm like, that's where, and so, you know, like I was, I was in Liberia, the tail end of Ebola, and that was so terrifyingly shocking. And I was in, you know, um, pretty unique places with them.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  That, and I remember when I first went, I went to Nepal for my first trip and it was like a soft touch almost. It was like, here, do this, you know? I even went to a tiger sanctuary or something. You know what I mean? It was like introducing him to this.

• 37:57Rich Roll?

  Right, because you'd, you'd want to go to Nepal anyway.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. And I remember sitting at the top of this village, in this village. And I was like, wow, this is like a billion dollar view, by the way. Like it's, I mean, it's like, you just look and I'm, all around me are these like, is, is a community that was really struggling because they didn't have a tap. Tap, right? So the kids, the daughter, this young woman was walking two and a half miles up a, up a hill to collect water that was contaminated, right? And this is 20 years ago. So they were putting water in plastic bottles, on, on a, on a corrugated iron roof. So the sun would go through, it would kill all the, but then they're getting all the plastic too, right? Which we know now, but like that was, at least they weren't getting sick from drinking the water. And there were the, and it was basically the women in this community.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Who had done a map and they were like, so this is the little lake and this is the woods and this is the, this is the houses and the, the, the, the hearts that people live in. And this is the one, they don't have an outhouse. So we're trying to get them to put a little outhouse so that they're not defecating anywhere. Because basically kids are dying from, you know, the disease of, you know, diarrhea. It's like, we'll kill a kid under two and like this, you know what I mean? And in these communities. And I was like, sitting there thinking, what do I have to do? What do I have to do to be able to have an impact in a big way for this community? For these, for this, for the, for the things that go there. And I think that part of doing the show is, and, and all of this is that sometimes I just don't wanna keep pushing myself out there because it's just a lot.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Cause I think when you're trying to do something good in the world, you just get swung with the negative. You know what I mean? Like the backlash is just, do you, do you, do you ever feel that? That, that, that when you, when you're trying to message really good things, you get, you get the, the yin and yang of life.

• 39:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it, it just comes, it comes with it. Not, not nearly on the level that someone like you must have to experience that.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  So I'm like, I'm gonna do this now and I'm gonna get this then. You know what I mean? It's like, so I like literally have to go, okay, I'm gonna do this podcast now and try and put a lot of positivity and messaging out. And I guarantee you, I'm gonna get a slap on the, your back from the universe at some point. But you know what I mean? It's like, it's like a setup. It's literally like, it is a setup. I feel like sometimes I'm like, is it a setup? Is this a simulation? Are we like literally, is that, you know what I mean? And but my Buddhist practice would have me go, that works too, whatever. It work, it, just pour more love on it.

• 40:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, what it, what it, what it demands of you is to really look at your relationship with the opinions of other people, right? And this is, this is like a huge thing for me, you know? Yeah. But you can't be you without having to contend with that though, you know? But I'm sure there's an emotional, you know? Cost to that.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  That's the one. That is the one for everyone, right? That's the one.

• 40:51Rich Roll?

  So you have a choice. You can be a shut in and do nothing. Or you can do what it is that you're here to do and share your gifts and try to do good and let the chips fall as they may.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Hmm, that's right.

• 41:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Give less fuck.

• 41:05Rich Roll?

  But it's gotta be tough. I mean, you're, you're, you know, you're known all around the world and your partner is known all around the world. Like this is a, you know, this is like a Wonder Twins powers activate situation where I'm sure you guys can't go anywhere. Like, how do you?

• 41:20Speaker 01

  We do, we do, we do.

• 41:21Rich Roll?

  You do?

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, we do, we do. Um, she's, we're very good at that. She's very good at that. She was always good at that. Yeah, we get on with it. This isn't 2006. I remember what it felt like to be Justin Bieber with Hailey Bieber. I remember what that felt like. Uh, you know, it's a different time and thankfully, gratefully, you know, like, and, and we're good at it. We're good at, we're, she's always been good at it. And I've always been, I got, I got good at hiding, which wasn't good, actually.

• 41:49Rich Roll?

  Like hiding from the world or hiding from yourself?

• 41:52Speaker 01

  Like, just like, like, I just hiding so that I didn't, I think it played out in a lot of ways, but there was a period where I just couldn't go anywhere. So I used to ride motorbikes to get from A to B. I wore a baseball hat or I had a hat.

• 42:03Rich Roll?

  I had a hundred different hats. Peak Lord of the Rings time?

• 42:06Speaker 01

  It was not, it was, it was Pirates, really.

• 42:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Lord of the Rings, I was in a blonde wig, didn't, it was hard to, but it was Pirates, through Pirates and all this, all this stuff. 2006 on, you know, my mom had this article. I always talk about this because I must, I must, it must play into my ego. My ego loves this story, so I'll tell you. But my mom kept this article from the New York Times saying that I was the most, she was like, darling, you're the most Google person on the planet. For four years now, it's in the article, you know, and it was like,

• 42:31Rich Roll?

  That's a lot.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Above, above Britney Spears.

• 42:34Rich Roll?

  That's a lot, though.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  So.

• 42:36Rich Roll?

  How do you even like mentally process that?

• 42:38Speaker 01

  I, I was freaked out. Freaked out. She was like, we've got to do something with the internet to do, you know, I'm like, freaked out. No, we're not doing anything. I'm hiding. I'm going under this shell and I'm just going to come out and be on set and I'll do my best to, you know, no, I was, it was, that was a lot.

• 42:56Rich Roll?

  It all happened really fast. I mean, you, you booked and landed Lord of the Rings like right as you graduated from drama school, right? You've done other things. It wasn't your first thing necessarily, but.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  I mean, I moved to London when I was 16 and I hustled like a crazy person to get anything. Yeah, it was a lot.

• 43:12Rich Roll?

  And you were what, 20?

• 43:13Speaker 01

  20, yeah.

• 43:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:15Rich Roll?

  That's pretty, uh, you know, that would be enough to derail anybody.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 43:20Rich Roll?

  Drugs and alcohol was never a thing for you though, was it?

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was.

• 43:23Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did? You didn't get into big trouble with that or anything, did you?

• 43:27Speaker 01

  I had more, I, I, I think, you know, cause I was on my own at 16 in London. I had more, um, I did a lot of drugs and had a lot of alcohol, but I had that Buddhist practice. And I remember that David, who had, had, a shakabuki me, which means introduced me, had, had, had sort of, I'd said to him, I was like, I even remember saying like, so you're saying I could like charm for like more of this? More of that and more of this. And I was like, really into this girl and whatever it may be. And he was like, yeah, do what, charm for all of that.

• 44:02Rich Roll?

  Charm for your self-serving needs and desires?

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Because it was, because there's this phrase which earthly desires lead to enlightenment. So the earthly desires of me seeking these things, these negative paths, I would wake up in these crazy situations where I shouldn't be at that age. And I'd be like, I shouldn't be here. Okay. Where should you be? Not here for starters. Okay. Well, let's step out of this. And then it was like, David also, you know, shared the teachings of Dalai Lama, who was my mentor. So I would be reading little bits and I'd be like, words like integrity or wisdom or courage or compassion were starting to filter through my, which I was finding through reading. Nobody had told me to.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  So it was like a part of this edge self, the self-education tool thing. But with my probably undiagnosed ADHD and dyslexia and like a lot of things, I was like, everything was had to be experienced to be understood. So, you know, it's been a very, very interesting learning curve over the years. And I think that I was disciplined enough, self-regulated enough to know that I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna live in Canterbury. You know, I'm born in seventy seven, so there was a period where, you know, there was a thing of like, go out and be your own, you know, there was a statue, go out and be your own hero and build your own, you know, all of that. So I think, you know, in a way, it was like, I was just, I was, I wanted to build and

• 45:34Speaker 01

  I had a taste for really good things and I could mix with people from the estate. And the estate means like an area where it was like, you know, you know, low-income housing or whatever, like some public housing situation. But I, and then I'd have like a boarding school that I was going to where there were like kids who were like, you know, and so, and I just kind of, I don't know, I never, I never felt like I was one thing or another. You know what I mean?

• 45:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, I get it, I get it, I get it. I mean, this idea, you can't, you're not gonna go home to Canterbury, you're gonna continue to pursue this thing, but you're, you're, you're touching up against like some crazy experiences and you know well enough, like, hey, that flame's too hot. But I've gotta figure out a way, I've gotta figure out a way of living for myself that's gonna work.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  I'm still going there.

• 46:20Rich Roll?

  And you have this Buddhist practice that is as philosophical as it is faith-based, like it is this roadmap, this sort of art of living kind of philosophy for life. How did that come in? How, explain how that originated for you?

• 46:35Speaker 01

  So I was sixteen and I was seventeen, sorry, seventeen probably. So I did sculpture, photography and theatre studies. Knowing that I wanted to be an actor, school, knowing that I needed art and creativity for my imagination, and knowing that like education had been a real challenge up until that point, and I'd taken a ton of extra classes to get it, any of it. But I got it, all of it, but like it was hard. So, but for my sculpture exam, I had, I was really good at just sitting and like you could just put something in front of me and I'd be like, and I'd be like, whoa, cool. But I had no, I hadn't done a piece of drawing, and I had to have drawings to back up every piece of sculpture that I made. And I had to have, to show the thought process that went into it.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  And then I had a fifteen hour still life drawing exam, a fifteen hour oil painting exam, along with my fifteen hour sculpture exam. And I, and my teacher sort of told me this like three months before, before the exams and all that. And I was like, wait, what? It's like an endurance event. And I was like, my brain just like, cause I was hanging, like I needed those grades for drama school, whatever. I just like, you know. So my best friend Mark, who's like my brother, who I've known since I'm thirteen, has, and is like literally, you know, saved my life in many ways. Was like the reason I moved to, like helped me get to London and stuff. Introduced me yet again, coming in to save my life, to this artist David. And David lived in the hometown next to me.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  And every weekend for about, for every weekend up, leading up to the exams, I went down to Folkestone and I, and he would sit me up on the knees or when he'd go, here, just look at them yourself in the mirror and paint this. And they use these, and I'd hear him in the other room and he'd go.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  So one day I go, what are you doing? He goes, I'm chanting that you're gonna be really successful in your life and that you're gonna have this like great, you're gonna do amazing in your exams. And I go, oh, cool. Well, will it help? He goes, yeah. I go, cool. So I get down on my knees and I'm just like, I start chanting, right? And then I'm chanting the moon. I'm in this like exam for sculpture and there's a whale bone and a, and a, and a grapefruit or something I'm painting. And I'm like, I'd be looking at it, I'd go to the bathroom, come back out and I'm like, okay, fine, carry on. Anyway, got the highest exam, got the highest grade in the, in, I believe they asked to keep my work cause I think they were like, this is the grade that we want following year to, has to hit.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  So we'd like to keep your work and the highest grade in the country kind of thing. I got whatever I was like, and I was like. Oh, well, this, this is, this is working out.

• 49:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  And you're like this chanting. What else did I jump for?

• 49:17Speaker 01

  You know?

• 49:17Rich Roll?

  That was enough proof for you to, to look more deeply into whatever this tradition is.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Earthly desires leads to enlightenment was a big one for me. Because I think I, in my young life, in my twenties, I achieved more in my twenties than I thought I ever would. And I realized that most of those things that I thought was gonna make me happy didn't make me happy. You know, like making a lot of money, making more money than I probably ever would need to have made, you know? Just meant I wanted to need to make more money to keep up the things that I was buying that I didn't need, that I was, you know? There's a whole slew of it, you know? It's like, we're all just over consuming, right? We all just think we need that. And I'm still doing it, trust me, still doing it. But I'm so much more aware, but I'm like, let go, let go, let go, let go, let go. And the show was just like, oh,

• 50:07Speaker 01

  so you need to be near death for you to understand that. And that would work if you look at the framework of like, probably nearly dying many times. So it's like, so force yourself into that so that you springboard into growth for me.

• 50:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Interesting, yeah. The, uh, the experience of falling off the building and breaking, you know, falling out of trees and all that kind of stuff. On some level, like, oh, the universe is trying to get your attention. Maybe this isn't the best way to go about things. I know what we can do, let's give him everything he wants. And then maybe he'll discover something about himself in that process, like all the earthly desires satisfied. Now who are you?

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:47Rich Roll?

  Now what are you gonna do?

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:49Rich Roll?

  Where are you gonna find meaning?

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:51Rich Roll?

  What is purposeful about your life?

• 50:52Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 50:53Rich Roll?

  Um, what is your, you know, where, where, where are you calibrating your compass? You know, to have that lesson at an early age. You know, it could have, it, it, look, that experience buries a lot of people, right? But for you to be able to extract that, that kind of wisdom out of it to reconfigure your priorities, I think is, there's, there's something inspirational about that.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks very well.

• 51:16Rich Roll?

  To be gifted with that experience of not only, you were presented with this Buddhist idea as a young person. A lot of young people would have just said, that's weird and have no interest. But there was something inside of you that was like, I'm gonna move towards that. Like that seeker thing, I think that is inherent in who you are.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  I actually got to meet my mentor, which is a huge deal. You were saying before we met that you met the Dalai Lama and I've met the Dalai Lama a couple of times. Amazing human, amazing to be in his presence, right? Daishaku Akada was not somebody anyone could meet, um, really. Um, and it was very like, he's a, he was a, he's a unique, he was, he's no longer with us. He passed recently, but, um, I was in Japan with, um, this friend of mine from LA. This really powerful, strong Buddhist woman, uh, symbiote was like, he's gonna meet sensei. I'm making this happen. So she put out a call to say I was there in a way, because I'd been there countless times, actually, for publicity for movies.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  And she got a response to say, okay, that Daishaku Akada was, um, wanted to meet me. Hmm. And I think there were a lot of really, there's a lot of amazing members in my organization across the world. And one of them is this therapist from London, friend of mine, married to Sandy Shore, amazing guy. He was saying, I couldn't understand why he would meet you. And then I realized he must have been wanting to suss you out. He wanted to see, because I had at that time, a huge following. I couldn't go anywhere following, which was not harnessed by platforms on the internet. It was just, you know, it was just out there. And I think he probably wanted to size me up.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  So I remember meeting him, I had to get up on stage at this Rockfend Festival and say, the environment. I was just saying something like, you know, it was like crazy. And all these Japanese, because I had a big following there, went crazy. And then I got taken in a car and I got on a train and I went with these amazing Buddhas. Who just like had a sandwich for me and a bottle of water. And then were talking to me about what I was about to do, which was to meet my mentor, Daishaku Akada. And I was like, and I remember getting off this bus and, um, seeing him.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  And I literally, kid you not, I was like, oh, I've done this before. In that moment, I was like, oh, we've, this, this other lifetimes? What? That, that was, it was, it was, I've got, I've got goosebumps going through me as I remember that. Wow.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  And I got off the bus and I went over and I gave him this, and he pulled me back and he went, boom, boom. He smacked you? Like this, he was like, but it was like, it was so, it was like, and then he held me and looked at me and he went.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Because I think, first of all, culturally, you don't run up to a Japanese, you don't,

• 54:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? He was constantly teaching. And I looked at him. And then we went on this journey through the Nagano Training Center. And I just remember he was, we were in this golf car and there were people and it was felt like I was on this roller coaster, I was felt like I was on a flying carpet, honestly. And then, you know, he, he was, he, I had, actually, David was with me and my best friend from the show, Chris was there as well. I think you remember the blonde give out. And my sister, and he said, I'm giving you this award. I want to give this medal to your mother. I want you to take this home to your mother. And I was like,

• 54:54Speaker 01

  you know? And, and I was like, wow. So.

• 55:01Rich Roll?

  What's, what is, what's coming up for you right now?

• 55:04Speaker 01

  What is that?

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Uh, my mom, so I gave her this, I just feel very, um, yeah, I don't know, man. I'm just, it was, it was, I think the moment remembering that. Cause my mom is somebody that I'm constantly learning to evolve and grow the relationship with a boundary that I can, that I can navigate and, and feel safe, you know?

• 55:38Rich Roll?

  We were talking before the podcast about the experience of, of visiting with the Dalai Lama and his recurring message around the mother's love for the child as a pathway towards compassion and forgiveness and understanding that, um, how we think of ourselves as individuals is an illusion. You were talking about like the, you know, like we're all one, we are all connected. And a vehicle or like a portal for really embracing that is being able to connect with that mother's love.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:18Rich Roll?

  And there's something about him deciding that the award should go to your mother that feels, um, related to that in the sense of, it's him recognizing that.

• 56:30Rich Roll?

  Like his mother's love for you, like what she nurtured in you allowed you to become the person.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  That's right. And I think that it's it's all mothers. I think that when he refers to the mother, or when you're talking to the Dalai Lama, it's the mother, the mother, all mothers. He wrote this amazing piece of dialogue, which he, which he said to, and I, I'd love to, there's just the one line in it is, is that I, that I would love to share briefly, because I think it's something that you, you, you, you might appreciate, is, he talks about, "A great future lies ahead of you. We will see a transformation of history from the revolution of the external environment

• 57:16Speaker 01

  to that of the inner self, the human revolution. It will be an age in which the action of leaders will naturally be based on the guidelines of making all mothers happy." And I don't think that, you know, we can always understand that, the depth of that. You know, there's this interesting time we're living in, but it's, and, and it's constantly, for me, it's this constant, like, like, the love relationship with my mother is such a, such a unique thing, and, and it, and it forces me to grow in such an amazing way.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  You know, and it's the reason why I'm here. I remember when I was in, doing Lord of the Rings, I wrote this fax, because we're only faxes, there's no emails. And I wrote this fax to my mom, and I just said, because I was, I was having probably, that was like nirvana of an experience, you know, of a time in my life, age-wise, playing Legolas, you know, this ethereal being that was like, you know, so just like, and imbuing that, because I'm 100% committed, I'm not a method actor, but like, I'm, I really try to shift my, my makeup when I go into a character. But I wrote this letter to my mother, and I said, "I just want you to keep this fax, Mom, because I'm just so grateful for everything."

• 58:45Speaker 01

  You know, all of it. Because actually, like, that was, it was, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be on this set with these people. If whatever you had done hadn't worked. And even if you knew it or not, you know what I mean? And all of it, you know? Because I think, I think we're all, you know, I don't know, like, are we all coming back lifetimes? Are there different? Do you feel like you met people who've like, oh, they've done this a million times?

• 59:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  I feel like there are people who just go, oh, there's an ancient wisdom there.

• 59:09Rich Roll?

  How many times have we done this podcast together?

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Right. So I'm like, but like, I would say my mother, I would say, I would say, perhaps I've been here. I would say in some ways, I don't know, but like, there are aspects of my mother where I'm like, wait, wait, what? This is the, wait, and then come back to, no, okay, this is the lesson. This is the lesson. So what am I gonna do with it?

• 59:36Rich Roll?

  Hmm. But the gratitude seems like a consistent thing with you.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Has to be.

• 59:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Has to. Does that come easy? Or do you have to work on that?

• 59:45Speaker 01

  I think when you say nam yorin gakki, you're just basically saying, I'm grateful, I'm grateful, I'm grateful, I'm grateful, I'm grateful, I'm grateful, I'm grateful. So no, I work on it all the time. Oh, no, you're kidding me? My head is like, I mean, it's untethered.

• 59:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  You told, you saw the show.

• 1:00:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Throughout the show, there's a kind of recurring motif of you chanting the mantra. And there's, there's, there's something funny about it, too. Like, there's a comic, I mean, if anything's gonna get memed out of the show, prepare yourself for that, you know what I mean?

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  Meme away. However, we can get the messaging out there, you know what I mean?

• 1:00:18Rich Roll?

  Listen, it would have been, it would have been an easier and safer choice to just leave that part out. You know what I mean? Let's just make a show, you're jumping out of planes, you're doing all this stuff. And clearly, you were like, no, this is central to what I want to say.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  To my life. It's my life.

• 1:00:36Rich Roll?

  And what do you want people to take from that?

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  Um, that I was always looking for a roadmap. I was confirmed in the Cathedral of Canterbury by the Archbishop of Canterbury. That is no.

• 1:00:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's some real shit.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  That's a big deal.

• 1:00:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  You can't knock Jesus.

• 1:00:53Rich Roll?

  And you have like 10 names. What's your full name?

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Orlando Jonathan Blanchard Copeland Blue.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  It's a mess.

• 1:01:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  It's a mess.

• 1:01:01Rich Roll?

  You just need like a duke or, you know, lord or whatever attached to that.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  You can't, um, so you can't knock Jesus, right? But I used to see him on the cross in, I'd sing hymns and psalms in chapel every morning. And I'd be looking at him, I'd be like, I feel so bad. But I didn't put you there. I'm so sorry you're there. And it was maybe through the teachings as well. And I had an amazing, uh, school chaplain, by the way. He was just like, basically love, you know, like, but for whatever reason, so, but I was like, so I met the practice at 16 because I hadn't, you know, I hadn't found a church or something, but I knew I needed a, a, a philosophy or a practice. Cause it's, I think I'm just inherently also quite spiritual.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Um, so everything is, is, is dialed slightly that way, whether it's journeying with medicine or whatever it may be, it's always got that element to it. Um, but I, I think that, you know, I saw, I, I think it's just nam yor en gak yul was my journey, my path to understanding that we are all connected. We are, you know, what you do to somebody else will come back to you, whether that be good or bad. And that unless we're all happy, none of us are happy, not really. So I can get all of these things. We can go out and I can keep accumulating and I can have all these things. But did it make me happy?

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  That like the process of like, yeah, of course, like when I'm driving really fast in my Porsche, I'm like, that's really fun. But I can enjoy that moment. But what makes me most happy is when I'm standing on the edge of the, the village that actually had a tap. And there were prayer flags and there were classrooms and they were just living like with just just being able to have water, right? But like, so I don't know, like, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a big hippie at heart, probably. I'm like a big old.

• 1:03:07Rich Roll?

  The hippie from Canterbury, grown in the Church of England.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm a mess of experience.

• 1:03:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's just, it's interesting to be raised in the church in that way and then connecting with a different faith tradition and having that resonate with you and, and, and with staying power like from 16 on, it wasn't a flirtation.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  There've been times in my life where I haven't chanted as consistently, but the fundamental practice and that thing, and I'm always saying it even when I'm not, if I don't sit in front of my Mahonzen every morning, but I do now more and more. And actually, through these conversations, I've realized how much I need to get my study up. So there were three parts of my practice, practice, study and sharing. And it's like, I need study so bad.

• 1:03:51Rich Roll?

  You're doing a lot of sharing right now.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  And I need this study. And it's like, oh, come on, bro.

• 1:03:54Rich Roll?

  What makes this tradition different from Zen Buddhism, Tibetan, other, other variations of Buddhism?

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  For me, it's very user friendly. It's very taking action. I do meditate, by the way, I do TM, but I find that yoga for the mind. But this is like, my eyes are open and I'm about taking action in this moment. It's very accessible. There is amazing wisdom by Daisaku Wakata that I can, I can get very easily, little snippets. I can go as deep as I want if I want to deep go like, study the Go show and go deep into what, you know, the thinking of Nishin Daishanin was that brought this, this teaching to the world. I can go back to Shakyamuni. I can, it, it kind of encompasses everything. And there's a mystical aspect which is completely unfathomable.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Which plays into the part of my magical thinking, which is how am I even here? Hmm. So for me, it's the trifecta, it's the perfect package. It's the art of living. And, you know, I'd encourage anybody who wanted to chant Nam Myo Renge Kyo. Do you say it after me, will you? Will you say Nam? Nam. Myo Ho. Myo Ho. Renge. Renge. Kyo. Kyo. Now, you never have to say it. I can't say it as fast as you. I don't know how you. Nam Myo Ho Renge Kyo. Nam Myo Ho. Myo Ho. Renge Kyo. So now, like, I believe, and I said this to Jay, you never have to say that again, but my practice, my faith has taught me that you've just protected seven generations in your past and seven generations in your future. I believe that for you. So you have.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  And that's my faith. That sounds wild. Yeah. But I believe that. Now, if you imagine, let's take that forward. This lifetime is just the, is, is just in preparation for the next lifetime, right? I'm an eternal Buddha. I'm gonna keep coming back. If I, maybe that gives me a certain, it's like my, it's like my cape. It's like Superman's cape, Nam Myo Renge Kyo. I've gone, fuck, and you know what I mean? It's like my protection. Maybe that thinking, because of my upbringing, is what helps me, right? Like, I respect people, all people of faith. I do think that faith has led to some catastrophes around the world. But like, my, my, you know, my parents-in-law, I mean, Katie's parents, pastors, you know, and always praying.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  And when they pray for me, I feel that. And I respect it. And I feel it deeply. And I know that they're protecting me.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  That's beautiful, man. But I'm, I'm, I know also that for me, like, access to Nam Myo Renge Kyo is what works. So, you know, check out the SGI dot org. Yeah. And they don't want money from you. That was the crazy thing. I never, never got asked for a cent. I've never been asked for a cent. Not one cent.

• 1:06:47Rich Roll?

  And look at your blessed life.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I've given a lot, but only because I chose to, not because nobody's ever asked me for a thing.

• 1:06:54Rich Roll?

  It's so interesting.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Isn't that interesting? I always think that's a, that's a, there's a really interesting tell there, isn't it? You can tell something's, whether they want money from you.

• 1:07:02Rich Roll?

  When you, when you recite the mantra, though, you, you do it, is there something about the speed, the cadence? Cause you do it so quickly and it takes on this tone. It's sort of like oming, you know, in, in, in that tradition. Like the sound of the universe, like there's a throat singing kind of vibe that you get.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  I also recite, by the way, two chapters from the Lotus Sutra as part of my practice. It's very Japanese because Nishin Dushanen took it through the Silk Path, landed in Japan, right? And this is so, there's a, there's a very Japanese aspect to it when I love Japanese culture. I don't know how much time you spent in Japan, but like, oh, love Japanese culture. And so I recite two chapters, the lifespan and the expedience mean chapters as well. And like, just, it's like,

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  and it goes on for five minutes. And that's in me now because I've been reciting that, but it just, and it comes very naturally. And then, you know, and that's, and I, and I jump to a scroll and I have like a little incense and like a candle and there's a little bit of greenery and some fruit, just, it's very beautiful and it just is like centering. That's it.

• 1:08:09Rich Roll?

  Is this something that, that your partner and your kids practice as well? Like, how does that go, go down in the household?

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  So my, um, so my partner definitely, um, has, I said, as I, as I've said, has had a, a history of, you know, being raised in a church. So she has her own relationship with all things that are of the world and not, right? And it's really, really beautiful, actually, and interesting. But she fully is on board and respects and wants me and loves and appreciates me doing that. And we'll say like, when she really is in moments, she'll say that. And Daisy, I say every morning and night, and she says, oh, whenever I hang up the phone,

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  I'm like, if I'm away, first timing. And Flynn had the same every, but I, the way that I was Shakabuku by David, again, being introduced, he was a very hands, he was very aware, like, he didn't, you know, he didn't force anything. And I feel that that's something that's really important. People will, they need to make it their own, right? It needs to be your own. You need to feel good about it. You need to want something or there has to be a reason for it. And it resonates, it definitely resonated for me. So that's why I'm doing it. And maybe it doesn't for everyone, but then, you know, whatever works for you, right?

• 1:09:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you're doing, but when you're doing your TM and you're, and you're reciting your mantra, do you feel like you're cheating? You feel like you're cheating on your first true love?

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, that's such a good question. I literally came out here this morning and I told you, my brain was like going, why am I doing a ritual? What have I got to say? What is there? There's nothing, this is insane. What are you doing? You know, you're like, you just, you just have, you know, you just drivel on with Jay. I mean, what he tried, like, those are the stories that the intruder in my head would have me believe, right? So I'm literally meditating for 10 minutes. I'm like, chant, bro. Like, the 20 minute timer's on my phone and I stopped and then I'm like.

• 1:10:12Rich Roll?

  When you're meditating, you feel like you should be chanting?

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  No, to be fair, actually, no, no, no. So TM is not a religious practice.

• 1:10:19Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  And I find it to be really helpful to me. Just like, if I'm on set and I'm just like, my body and brain are tapped because I'm like redlining because that's how I am.

• 1:10:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Then I just go, and it's like, it just shuts everything off. But when I wake up in the morning and I chant, it's like starting the engine. And when I go to bed and I chant, it's like saying thank you. And it's just saying thank you. I'm just saying thank you all the time, basically.

• 1:10:46Rich Roll?

  Those two practices are compatible.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  For me, yeah, absolutely. And I think they are, yeah. And by the way, don't you think every religious practice, every spiritual thinker comes, at a certain point, it's all like?

• 1:10:56Rich Roll?

  Sure, sure. Well, we get caught up in the trappings. I mean, you can get caught up in the words and the mantras and the costuming of all of these things and lose sight of the core truths. And I think that's really at the root of all the strife that we have when it comes to the institutionalization of these various strains of thought, which at their core are all beautiful in their essence, I think, and share more than they disagree on.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, agreed.

• 1:11:36Rich Roll?

  So what is it that is the thing that you're working on now? Like, where's the piece where you don't really want to grow, but you know you need to? Like, where's that edge with the inside job work?

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Like, study. I think it's always study. It's always, for me, is like, just going back to, I think I can always learn more, reading, studying, not getting distracted by other things or choosing, like, navigating time. And it's always, it's pretty much like constantly trying to come back to studying and learning and educating and myself so that I'm just like a more, keep being a more fully-formed human.

• 1:12:25Rich Roll?

  So what does that look like now? Like, what are you reading? What are you looking at? What are you exploring?

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  It's kind of like, Edge was an opportunity for me to physically push that boundary and go out. I think a lot of stuff that I've been reading of late has been around relationships. So just because I didn't have a frame of reference for a relationship, so I've done a lot of stuff around relationships, been reading a lot around.

• 1:12:53Rich Roll?

  You did Hoffman, too.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  Hoffman was a great reveal, possibly one of the greatest reveals, yeah.

• 1:13:02Rich Roll?

  What did it show you?

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  That, you know, if I leash in my intellect, you know, which is that voice in my head that can be super judgmental and negative and or is the one that is able to analyze a paper and take things on, you know, which is super necessary. And if I leash in my inner child, which is the one that is like, I just need a hug, or is the one that is like, let's play, is the creative genius in me. And if I pay attention to my body, so that my, my body is functioning and I'm taking care of it, then my higher self, the best version of myself, will be the operating programming

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  that I'm working from. And that's the best version, right? Because there are, there are five things that I was once told there were five things, you know, that, that, that you're just to keep check of, which is like, and I'll probably forget them now, but that, but like, um, don't do drugs, right? Alcohol, drugs, whatever, don't like spiritual practice, physicality, movement, relationship. This is no particular order, by the way, relationship and, um, I'm not gonna remember the last one, sorry. But I have these touchstones that I keep. But for me, it's like, I'm constantly trying to navigate the inside of my, my brain and focus. So I'm like drawing things down. So it's constantly condensing, condensing, condensing, condensing down to presence.

• 1:14:29Rich Roll?

  So that formula for accessing your higher self.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  I'm really frustrated that I can't remember the.

• 1:14:35Rich Roll?

  It's probably something around service or work, right?

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  Work, work, career.

• 1:14:40Rich Roll?

  Work, career, service. But this idea.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  They're all the same. Everyone's got the same.

• 1:14:44Rich Roll?

  What's the flip side of that, you know, way to access the best version of yourself? Like what, what's, you know, what, what, what comes up when you're not conscious of taking care of yourself in that way?

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  That maybe Hoffman, you know, kind of put a mirror up to. Frustration. You mean the flip, the negative? Yeah. The thing that I'm. Yeah, the inverse. The inverse is, you know, it's like frustration, I would say, from a very early age. Cause it's sometimes I feel like if there's a window to my brain, I have to move the window. Other people have just like, they can just go, but I'm, I'm like going, and that's really frustrating. But what's the upside to that? In moving it, I'm seeing other things. You know what I mean? I'm always trying to find the, the positive, but. And so where does the fear land for you now?

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  Um, I think it was like, the show was about me and my practice about taking responsibility. Right? Like if I get so good at taking responsibility for myself, then you can start taking responsibility for all those other people and people that I just don't have the possibility, don't, don't have either. They just don't have this lifetime, in this lifetime, haven't been given the opportunities. Right? Or, and, and so I think responsibility, capable, you know, being taught to be super capable, being physically, you know, and then, and then trusting that and just letting go and just, you know, not caring, less caring about what other people think and say, and just like, let's go.

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  And so the fear is around what would happen if you really did let go in that way? Yeah, the fear is like, yeah, it's like they're just, you know, it's just, it's, it's the usual, it's the usual things. It's the, it's all the usual, both slings and arrows, right? People are gonna throw at you for this, that and the other, you know, trip you up along the way because you're not, you know, you're not, you haven't articulated that correctly. You haven't, you know, you rambled on, you haven't, like, I think there's nuance, right? The amazing thing about a podcast, the amazing thing about sitting here is that there's subtlety and nuance to this level of communication. And if somebody actually bothers to take the time and watch this whole thing, they'll see the way your heart and communication and intellect has, has probed questions in me for, to allow my heart intellect and to, to do a dance, right? And hopefully.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  They'll appreciate where my heart is coming from, right? But when things are put in writing, they get lost.

• 1:17:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  So often, things get put in writing and the nuance and subtlety of what's being communicated at the time. I can say with all my heart and my heart, I just want this to be a loving and and it'll be taken out of context. And he said this about her.

• 1:17:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  He did this, you know, it's like just so that you can, and that's what I mean about stepping out of your comfort zone. Being brave because you know, that's what's going to come around.

• 1:17:38Rich Roll?

  And that's a control like, that's a control that you have no, you can't control that.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:17:43Rich Roll?

  You can control what comes out of your mouth.

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  And it doesn't matter.

• 1:17:46Rich Roll?

  You can't control how people are going to interpret that or what they're going to do with that.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  And I think the other thing is that it doesn't matter. And actually, like, if somebody had said to me, if I'd had anyone to say to me, bro, you're good. Early on, like when I was in in some of that period of time where I was like, like, super visible and it's okay, bro, you're gonna make a mistake. But it's all right, like.

• 1:18:08Rich Roll?

  You didn't have, you didn't have a mentor or some older person in your life.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  I was a dissack who cater in that. I didn't have like, I didn't have, I didn't necessarily have a mentor who was going, no, no, I don't think I can, I don't think, I didn't have anyone. No, I don't also, by the way, it was a super unique circumstance. I mean, like, how many other people like, you know, I think.

• 1:18:29Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Not many people could even relate to what I was going. I mean, I was like, you know, I think when I got out of the car in Leicester Square, like Keira Knightley, when we were doing Pirates of the Caribbean and Johnny wasn't there at that time. So I guess I was the, it was like, she was like, he's like a one man boy band. It was crazy, bro. It was crazy at that time. It was bonkers.

• 1:18:47Rich Roll?

  What do people not understand about what that experience is like?

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  That it, that it creates a pattern of thinking. Or it creates an earwig or a, that you just, you're overwhelmed the whole time. You're just overwhelmed the whole time. So when you're like, like, just when you see somebody come at you and and all they want to do is for you to go, hey, can I get a photo? And you're like, but you're in this feeling of just like, you're just trying to get from A to B. You just want to get from A to B.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  You just want, you've got to swim across this, this field of sharks to get to this island so you can have lunch. Because, because you're overwhelmed, the feeling of being super overwhelmed by the visibility, by the self-worth aspects, right? I think it comes back, am I enough, right? And you see it play out with all of these wonderful artists in the world who are just trying to do their thing. You know what I mean? All of these artists in the world, you know, my partner, people in the world, they're all just like, trying to put this messaging out, because they've been born with it, right? They've been born into it. And they don't quite know how to navigate all of it. And there's a whole thing and there's a whole programming going, yeah, but you've got to have this, you've got to have. And it's like, no, no, no, no. But just pour more love on it, pour more love on it. And that's what they're really trying to do at their essence.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  But at times I think they're just so overwhelmed, you know? It's just like, it's like abrasive on the skin.

• 1:20:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and at that age, the brain, the brain isn't developed and it's too much attention, too much money. I mean, you talked about the world being a simulation. You have to imagine like, it is a simulation, why is everybody in the world responding to me in this way? Of course that's going to fuck with you and make you crazy.

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  And your ego and your.

• 1:20:25Rich Roll?

  And unless you're lucky enough to have some, you know, be surrounded, not with yes people, who are financially invested in whatever you're doing, but like, objective people who have your best interest at heart and aren't afraid to tell you what's what, like, you know, you're going to go sideways.

• 1:20:42Speaker 01

  I had a great, my manager was always so wonderful and, and, and, and in a way like, I, I didn't, you know, I stopped working there recently, not because I didn't love her, and I do love her and I miss her and I kind of like, I'm like, but because I needed to like fly, I needed to let go of, I needed to build something out because she had been this protector in some ways as well. And she was amazing, so.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  But I think, yeah, I think the, the real.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  It's it's an interesting, it's an interesting little pool to to to navigate. And I think my one of my, I do have a great therapist and he he gives me this analogy. It's like getting into a burning juggernaut, right? It's like getting, and everyone goes, oh, my God, let the fuck, the juggernaut's, it's on fire. It's gonna, it's gonna explode. And everyone's like, wow. And then you just got to, you got to be able to go, okay, getting out now, guys. Douse me down, get me back, okay. Am I good? Yeah, we're good, bro. You had the suit on, you're good, you can get out. And then, but I think for some people, they just think the burning juggernaut is the thing.

• 1:21:48Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  But it's not. You've got to be outside of that, right? Like, the burning juggernaut is the thing that you get paid to do for that 15 minutes, or whatever that may be, blah, blah, blah, blah. You've got to be in that, but then you've got to get out. And then you've got to go, okay, what are the things that I can do in my daily life that help me to navigate it? Now, I was 16 when I was learning how to cook pasta for myself and that and survive. So I know I know how to do that. But like, you have to keep learning those things. Because, by the way, when you get older, you've got somebody who's making food or whatever, you, you know, put yourself in a position where, but it's like, so what are the things that keep bringing you back? The walk in nature, the bike, the, what are the things that just keep bringing you back to doing the work? Because if you're not doing the work, whatever that means for you, then it's going to come and bite you.

• 1:22:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:22:33Rich Roll?

  And the work is the thing.

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  The work is.

• 1:22:35Rich Roll?

  The work is the thing, but how does that mesh with somebody who's so prone to these heightened peak experiences, who experienced them to an extraordinary degree as a young person, right? Like, you, you can't, as somebody who's going to always chase, like, what's the next exciting thing? It's impossible to match, like, Pirates and Lord of the Rings, but to remember that it's about the work. You know what I mean? And like, you're still doing the work, and the work is the thing, and you're really good at it, and you're sharing your art and your craft and, you know, all of it. But it's a different thing now.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  I think it's like a canvas. And I think the canvas in this lifetime will come to an end when I drop this flesh sap. You know what I mean? But until then, I'm painting a picture. And I'm just gonna keep going. And if it's a dark purple because I've F something up, or if it's a bright pink because I did the right thing. At the end of my life, I'll look at the canvas and go, cool, bro. Nice one. And then back. You know? But

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  the colors of my canvas. I don't wanna be just a whole bunch of pinks and pale yellows and pale blues. I want the rich colors. I want that stuff. Even if I don't mentally want it, because I'm like, I don't wanna deal with it. I actually do. I know I do. History has taught me that I do. Circumstances have taught me that I do. So if I just keep. And then just keep showing, just keep doing it, just keep painting it. So, okay, this too shall pass, all of it. All those old adages, right? Idle hands, there's a devil's playground. You wonder like, this simulation? Yeah, somebody went like, throw this one in.

• 1:24:23Rich Roll?

  Well, and the Buddhist idea of impermanence also.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:27Rich Roll?

  You know, it's, it's all a sand mandala that's, you know, blowing in the, blowing in the wind.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  And we're here like this, right? Like, you know.

• 1:24:35Rich Roll?

  But the canvas that you're painting with Edge, this TV show, is different in that it's you. Is it the, is this the first thing you've done where it wasn't a character? You're on screen, being yourself.

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:24:47Rich Roll?

  So it's not surprising that you have a heightened sense of like vulnerability.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:52Rich Roll?

  You know, doing the show and now talking about the show and being out there and being who you are.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes, it's really like, um, a lot.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  And I'm grateful, but it's a lot. It's been a lot in my head, yeah.

• 1:25:07Rich Roll?

  Who are the people that, that inspire you? Like, who do you look to for guidance, counsel? In art, in life, in lifestyle, in well-being?

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  So Daisaku Wakado is at the top of the list, just because that's been part of it.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  I have a cool group of Buddha brothers, who I just refer to. And I like David, who introduced me, I love how he lives. Celeste, who's this remarkable artist, founded the Trevor Project. Amazing. Celeste Lassine. My best friend, Mark White, who's like, kept me centered. And Gibby, who you see on the show. Like, we have this little... So those are the people that I'd kind of like, look at.

• 1:25:51Rich Roll?

  It says a lot that your closest friends are the people that you grew up with, that you've known for such a long time.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  I think I needed to choose family, and I think I was fortunate. And I feel like it's very mystical. I definitely feel it's very mystical. The same way that I still, Daisaku Wakado was like, oh, I feel like, these guys, we've just found each other again, in a way. That's how my brain works. So I'm sorry if that doesn't work for you, but that's how it works for me, and I definitely feel that way.

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  Those boys, that team, then... I think education was always a real challenge, up until I went to drama school, where I felt like I got my first dose of real education. Because like, I was like, metaphysiology was like the writings of, you know, the metaphysical poets, like John Donne or Milton and their... That language helped me to understand what I was reading, and, you know, helped me to key into my imagination. Because otherwise, I think I was just really like, so, yeah, like, you know... And then I'm amalgamation of all my own, you know.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  There are books that I've read that had an impact, like, at different times. But like, I think I try to keep coming back to that. Like, the Daisaku Wakado's capsules, because it's also like, bite-sized, and I can swallow it, and it really resonates for me. But, you know, like, I remember reading Perfume by Patrick Sisk, and then it was like, wow, that was like, what a... You know, the journey that that character went on, and the... Or, you know, I don't know, like, I know it's Anne Rann, but the fountain head was like, you know, that was not up there. She's like, some of the thinking in there, but, you know, or, but there were, there were just lots of different, at different times, but because reading was such a struggle for me as well, you know, it's like, listening is much easier. So now I get much more, like, listening to your podcast, quite fair. Audio really helps.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  And like, you know, like, there were so many experts on your, in, on your show. It's like, I was like, that's, there's a whole, that gives hope. Doesn't that give hope? Don't you sit in front of people and go, oh, there's hope. You know what gives me hope? The young people. Like, I feel like-

• 1:28:04Rich Roll?

  Elaborate.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Well, my son's thirteen and I'm like, he doesn't want the things that, he's like, I, I, I bought him a pair of Travis Scott sneakers and he's like, he's like, great, but he's not really attached to them. He left them behind.

• 1:28:18Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  He didn't take them home with him. Do you know what I mean? Or, they, hopefully, there's, they're not so driven by the need to consume, but experiencing the world. And what's the best way to experience the world? Nature, life, right? So what are we doing? We, we're ruining it for them. So they're going, you, we wanna go and swim in that lake without having to wear, like, a wet suit, because the sun's gonna, but, or whatever. Like, maybe the young people, once this old, hopefully, you know, I don't, not speaking to anyone or anything, but like, you know, there's a lot of like, hopefully, those young people are just gonna be like, and, and, you know, Sensei, like, Kato always refers to the young people.

• 1:29:03Rich Roll?

  There is something to that. There's certainly a level of empathy, um, and a, and a kind of more purposeful, meaning-driven sensibility to, to-

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Hope.

• 1:29:15Rich Roll?

  Gen Z. Yeah, like, it's not about, like, like, I don't get the sense that they're all gunning to go work at Goldman Sachs. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's more important to have experiences and to, you know, find something that is giving back and gives them-

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  Well, hopefully, we've showed them.

• 1:29:32Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? I don't know. No, I think it's a reaction.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:29:35Rich Roll?

  It's a reactionary impulse, you know what I mean? But to your point of, like, earthly desires will be your teacher, like- Our example, good or bad, is creating that, right?

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:47Rich Roll?

  Whether it's reactive or influenced by, matters less than the fact that it is happening. And I take, I take comfort and hope in that as well.

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:56Rich Roll?

  I think that is, you know, that is interesting. And the young people, you know, historically, always they, they get grief. They're, you know, what are they doing, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, I see a lot of hope in the younger generation. So your, your, your son's 13, right? So he's just sort of coming online with what he's into and what he wants to be and what he wants to do, which is an exciting time.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.

• 1:30:19Rich Roll?

  We've barely even talked about like acting at all. And this is really about, you know, you and the show, but what is it about acting that gives your life meaning? Like, what is it that you're channeling that feels resonant and important to you? That keeps you coming back to it?

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  The opportunity to portray a character and hopefully shine a light on, with compassion, on, on the experience of that character. And if you're doing it well, which I don't know that I've done, sometimes it's a bit hitting this, but like, which is why I love doing it, because I'm trying to get better all the time, is that you're shining a light, you know, Lear is a great one, right? You watch Ian McKellen do Lear and it's like, oh.

• 1:31:09Rich Roll?

  You suddenly understand shit for it when you see him do it.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  The compassion of a, of a broken human, because we're all broken. We're all, you know, we're all lost, looking for it, right? So the opportunity in performing a character is like, oh, I'm gonna get to shine a light on the psyche of this person, you know? And my job is just not to F that up and to really understand what the psyche of that character is. And sometimes you get an amazing character to, to do that with. And sometimes it's like, nah, character, well, I'll try and create something and fill that, fill in the blanks for that character. But, you know, but I, I just keep throwing myself at everything and into it because, because so long as it's like.

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  resonates, you know, I feel like I'm gonna learn something and like, you know, my cousin used to say when we go to see movies, like there isn't a bad movie. You learn something from all movies, you know, even the worst movies, you learn something from like that's don't do that, you know, but like, you know, I'm, I'm, I don't think anyone endeavors on a, on an artistic, you know, ex, you know, exhibition, like creating a movie with the intention of making it bad.

• 1:32:17Rich Roll?

  Of course not.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  It's just, it's just some, there's just levels of-

• 1:32:20Rich Roll?

  It's amazing any movie even gets made and then an absolute miracle when a movie is good.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  And by the way, with the advent of AI, you know, you know, I mean, what's, what's, what's it all gonna look like 10 years from now?

• 1:32:30Rich Roll?

  I don't know. I don't know. I think, I think the movie industry is very much in question right now. And it's trying to figure out a way forward. Like what is it, what does it mean? Where, where is it's, where is its place?

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  And yet a movie like Oppenheimer and Barbie can make-

• 1:32:44Rich Roll?

  Sure, they break out, they break out and they're incredible, but by and large, like it isn't, we don't, you know, it's a good thing that we're not in a monoculture anymore. But there's something lost also when we don't all come together as a collective to enjoy a piece of art in the way that we did when we were kids.

• 1:33:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:03Rich Roll?

  That I have some nostalgia for, I think.

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 1:33:05Rich Roll?

  Um, and, and it's not a judge, like, I don't know that any of this is good or bad, but I just think it's changed and it's continuing to change. And I think that change is gonna accelerate. I don't see AI upending movies per se for quite some time. It's, it's really hard to imagine that. As good as the technology could be, I think that humanity-

• 1:33:24Speaker 01

  The first move in AI, which is yet to be, which we're still, and I'm, and I keep trying to think, what's that first move? You know, what is that gonna be? And whether, what do I, how much of that? Because it'll be, you know, interesting, but I'm like, you know, what is it gonna look like? Because at some point, you know, that it's, I, I, I was fortunate to hear, um, Sam Altman speak on some of these issues at a, at a conference and he, he just said, and it was so interesting. So, you know, Flynn is not known a world without the internet, right? I, I, I grew up without the internet. I didn't have any of it. Didn't have a mobile phone, so I, so we, you know, as we didn't have. My daughter is, is, is never going to understand a world without super intelligence. Super intelligence.

• 1:34:08Rich Roll?

  And what does that, what does that do? What does that mean? What does that look like? What is that line?

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  How do you combat that?

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  And he actually said something, which is what Isaac Okada has said. It's the, it's going to be about the inner revolution. And I think it's going to be about discipline. Cause I think it's going to be the people that learn how to say no to their spending 10 hours swiping or whatever you need to do on your phone, which I, or buying or the people who have the discipline to simplify, right? To come back to the basics, right? Perhaps those are the people that aren't the NPCs, as they're called, right? Who are going to be the ones that move forward and actually have an impact. Cause I think everybody's got the opportunity to have an impact. It's just whether you know it or whether you were raised with the opportunity to understand that.

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  Or whether, you know, your makeup has given you that, has posed that possibility for you.

• 1:35:03Rich Roll?

  That's an interesting idea. It, it makes me think of, of, you know, how one comes up with a new idea. Like you have to sort of step outside the matrix and not be influenced or part of a certain kind of machine in order to see things differently and take a stand for a new idea.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:21Rich Roll?

  And when super intelligence and the internet is sort of commandeering all of our attention all of the time and the algorithms are dictating what we see and what we read and what we hear.

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  I love my algorithm, by the way.

• 1:35:33Rich Roll?

  Those algorithms start to program us, right? And then it becomes harder and harder to have an original idea.

• 1:35:40Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:35:41Rich Roll?

  Is what, is part of what Sam or maybe you are saying.

• 1:35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. And there are people that just are uniquely gifted at having a unique idea, by the way. Not everybody, we're all, you know, some people, I do think some people are born lucky than others, you know? There's not, I mean, certainly you can make a certain amount of your luck, but it depends how much work you're willing to do. And I think that like, we are being conditioned into thinking less work is more. But I think, you know, like that old adage, like we said about the idle hands make for the devil's playground, because actually I think just getting up and.

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  Moving some dirt or planting something or doing like doing something physical, whatever it may be, there's such, there's such benefit to that, you know?

• 1:36:24Rich Roll?

  And so what does that daily routine look like for you?

• 1:36:27Speaker 01

  I don't know that there's a routine, but it's like, there is, there's something. I mean, it's, you know, if there's definitely a chanting, there's definitely, you know, moving my body, trying to sweat, there's definitely, you know, getting into the sun and moving into nature, there's definitely, if I have the opportunity, you know, different times. And then I'm trying to vary it all up, you know? Trying to mix it up, like so that my body doesn't expect the same things or my mind or my experience isn't the same. So like, but I'm not much of, I'm not one for sitting down and around, um, much, you know, I'm more like, you know, moving, um, so I could keep learning to sit down and around

• 1:37:09Speaker 01

  more and maybe read, study more would be good to add to my.

• 1:37:13Rich Roll?

  What about the fitness piece? I mean, you're incredibly fit in the show.

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:37:17Rich Roll?

  You look pretty fit right now.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  I'm all right.

• 1:37:19Rich Roll?

  What is that? What is that?

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  Because of my back injury, a lot of it is like, you know?

• 1:37:23Rich Roll?

  Does that cause you pain to this day? What is the, it does?

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  To a certain, not, not massively, to be fair, actually not massively, but, um, it just requires stabilizing my spine, right? You know, because the spine is a weird thing, right? Isn't it a little funny? You know, anyway, so yeah, just functional, functional work now. Like, I think, I just did this movie, which I, you know, I'm really proud of called The Cut that I produced and it's going to come out, but I had to drop, it's a, it's a boxing movie, but the fight is making weight, like they call it cutting weight. And I dropped from a hundred and eighty-five pounds to a hundred and, um, I'm a hundred, a hundred and eighty-five as I, I'm about one eighty right now, just in front of you. I went to a one, one fifty-one.

• 1:38:06Rich Roll?

  That's legit. Over how much, how long of a period of time?

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  Two months, something like that. And it was.

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  What was going on in my brain, the dehydration, because I was cutting water, I was like, I did, I threw everything at it to get to it. And the final thing, right, I was sitting at one sixty ish, one sixty something for like weeks to the end. And then this wonderful nutritionist, Philip Golly, who like had helped some great actors do their thing as well. He's, he's in Santa Monica. He said, all right, he timed everything out, but he was like, now's the Epsom salt bath. So I get into an Epsom salt bath with twenty five pounds of Epsom salt in the bath. And I get into it boiling hot up to my neck. And I'm like, I have videos of me just like, which is what the fighters do, actually. And I have, that's what we do in the movie as well. So

• 1:39:01Rich Roll?

  The movie is about

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  Making weight.

• 1:39:03Rich Roll?

  Cutting weight as a boxer.

• 1:39:04Speaker 01

  As a boxer. It's called The Cut. It's about making weight. Sean Ellis directs it, John Turturro, Katrina Baugh and myself, and then a wonderful cast, supporting actors. And we shot it for no money in London, just like last summer. And it was, anyway, so I, I get out of this bath, he said, chug two bottles of water. And like, I had people help me get into the bed. Because I, again, no barrier, no, no, no gatekeeper, push it super far, drink the water, get it, get it. I woke up in the morning and I don't know, it's osmosis, but I dropped ten pounds overnight.

• 1:39:34Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  Ten pounds.

• 1:39:36Rich Roll?

  So it's just seeping out of your, your skin.

• 1:39:38Speaker 01

  It was wild. We have the video, we have the photos, and I'm like on the

• 1:39:41Rich Roll?

  The sodium in the

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was wild.

• 1:39:44Rich Roll?

  Ten pounds overnight.

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that took me to one.

• 1:39:47Rich Roll?

  One fifty one.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  Then I was living in this space, just eating cucumber and tuna, cans of tuna, tins of tuna, like, because basically, and like hardly any water for like, until I got, so we started the movie, we filmed the end, the final scene is him like standing on the scales going

• 1:40:05Rich Roll?

  Making weight.

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  Making weight. And there's a, there's a part to it, which is, it's a slightly crazy thing that he does to get there finally. Because anyway, I won't spoil it, but it was wild. Anyway, and I get, and he's like, so we started the movie at that point. And then I had to put on weight as we went through. So the crazy thing was, there's me going, wow, at different points, I'm like, wow, one, one sixty nine looks pretty good, bro. Or one, you know, and it's all really about male, you know, the male body dysmorphia. I mean, you can, you, you know, I mean, you can speak to this too, right? It's like, we're so over, overly aware of what we look like and stuff. So part of it, part of the movie, we're all like that. And I realized that everybody's got a DC eating disorder. You know what I mean? It's like the movie is about that male, the look at all of that stuff. Like, why do we do this to ourselves, right?

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  I like to say it's because I want to improve the way I think and feel. So I'm eating for my brain now, right?

• 1:40:57Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  Which I think is

• 1:40:58Rich Roll?

  That's convenient.

• 1:40:59Speaker 01

  Been convenient later. Yeah. I like to do that. That's my, uh, that's my ego.

• 1:41:05Rich Roll?

  What did it feel like when you were 151? Like, there is a weird

• 1:41:09Speaker 01

  Oh, bro.

• 1:41:09Rich Roll?

  euphoria with that, right?

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  It was the weird, I mean, I mean, I was like paranoid. I was having paranoid attacks. I was totally like psyched, the dehydration and everything. I was like, I had a real, I was really struggling and I was open and vulnerable. I was like, I couldn't, I like, I, I literally sometimes was holding people to move around because I was so dehydrated as well because I'd, I'd like, you know, I'd, I'd taken things to help with the dehydration. So I was like out and my, and my bones like so bone, you know, like that was where my body was like, okay.

• 1:41:42Rich Roll?

  Were you having blood work done and

• 1:41:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:44Rich Roll?

  You were medically supervised doing that.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  Some, somewhat.

• 1:41:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  Not when I got to England.

• 1:41:49Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's, that's like machinist territory.

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  Here I was.

• 1:41:52Rich Roll?

  That movie, The Machinist.

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, a guy who I worked with, yeah, he, he's worked with Christian Bell. I'm not sure on that one, but he's worked with him bail on some stuff.

• 1:41:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  Actually, you know, part of a really great performance, when you actually put your body through that, we'll get, that will, that's what will come of, of it.

• 1:42:07Rich Roll?

  Sure. Because you're actually doing it. You're living it.

• 1:42:09Speaker 01

  You're living it.

• 1:42:09Rich Roll?

  So obviously that's going to translate onto the screen.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every, every aspect of it.

• 1:42:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's very, uh, that's, that's very method though, too. I guess you kind of have to. You're not, you're not going to be able to costume your way through that.

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  I mean, no. And also like, you know, I wanted to burn the barn down on this one, you know? It's like I, I kind of had been developing it for years with this producer and, you know, getting to make it, like we said, is lightning in a bottle and, you know, who knows?

• 1:42:38Rich Roll?

  How do you choose your parts?

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  It's not like I get like, to be honest, I know what. Like, there was a period where it was just all top drawer material and I'm getting sent and it's like, I, I don't know. I had a, a really great manager and a lot of it was like, can't see the wood for the trees. There were things I look back and I go, how did I miss on that? Cause I remember that being on my path, but I didn't do that.

• 1:43:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:01Speaker 01

  And I didn't do that. Why? What? Oh, I did this. Okay. But that's, and you, so letting go. Letting go. Like, everything is, so now it's like, I don't want to leave my family too much, but there's nowhere I'd rather be than on set. So I'm like, and, and, and, and of late, you know, I would say in the last few years, a lot of it has just been like, let's roll the dice, see what happens. I don't know. There's, there's variables here that, that don't add up ordinarily, you know, like.

• 1:43:31Rich Roll?

  And of course there's the, there's, there's a very kind of low hanging fruit joke around with your show, right? Like, is this not just a big, you know, sort of Mission Impossible audition? Like, is, is there some one up, up, upsmanship for Cruz to feast his eyes on?

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. He knows, you know, like, I don't know if he's done wingsuit.

• 1:43:48Rich Roll?

  He has, I don't think he has. He's done a lot of shit, but I don't know if he's done a wingsuit.

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  Somebody told me though, and by the way, he is, I consider him to be the head of the arrow. He has been a movie star.

• 1:43:59Rich Roll?

  The stuff he's doing is wild.

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  The movie, he is, and he is like, so like nothing but hats off. He produced a movie I did with Cameron Crowe called Elizabeth Town and I have the utmost respect for that man. But he, it is interesting because he does, he does it all and he just does it all. He just keeps, he keeps showing up and doing all of it.

• 1:44:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. He's got no time for anybody one upping him though.

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:44:22Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  Isn't that interesting?

• 1:44:24Rich Roll?

  I don't think he's interested in, in having anyone come in and take over the Mission Impossible franchise. He's gonna do it.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's gonna do it. He's gonna, he's gonna, he's got a wingsuit into a, into a car in, in the next Mission Impossible.

• 1:44:36Rich Roll?

  He's gonna go out.

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  I think somebody told me that he, if, if, if he hadn't done it, which I think maybe, I don't know if he's done it, but uh, I can't, I, I wouldn't, but I think, I think part of it was like. You don't see it on film in the same way. Like wingsuiting, it's hard to see, but it's the fastest. You're moving faster than anything. It's the fastest we can possibly move on a bike without, you know. And you're, you know, you're cutting through the sky, but it doesn't, it doesn't. Um, it's hard. I don't know if you saw in the show because we went over water, so maybe you see it. But it's, it's hard.

• 1:45:08Rich Roll?

  You have that long lens shot where you can see the water moving beneath you really quickly.

• 1:45:13Speaker 01

  Which helps and there's some other shots, but it's, it's hard to capture. Whereas skydiving, there's, you know, you can get like.

• 1:45:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  A bunch of guys with, who really know what they're doing in the air to catch you like that. You know, which he's done epically, you know, and made a remarkable, you know, and, you know, the jumping and the, with the, with the bike was, I mean, I'd love to do that. I mean, imagine you're getting painted and he loves it. He for sure, he loves it.

• 1:45:38Rich Roll?

  For sure.

• 1:45:39Speaker 01

  He's a, he now, now, now there's a guy who's like an expert at everything.

• 1:45:45Rich Roll?

  He's been doing it for a very long time. Yeah. And he's surrounded himself with an incredible team of people that facilitate and train him.

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:52Rich Roll?

  To be that guy.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  And I, and I.

• 1:45:54Rich Roll?

  But you know, he fucking doesn't fuck. I mean, he, he, he, he goes all the way, dude.

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  He does.

• 1:46:01Rich Roll?

  He's speaking your language on some level.

• 1:46:03Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. We, we definitely had, I definitely, yeah. But as you said, the low hanging fruit is, is this just a massive commercial for my next franchise that I'm, by the way.

• 1:46:13Rich Roll?

  Just one big audition tape, right?

• 1:46:15Speaker 01

  I mean, there is that aspect to it.

• 1:46:17Rich Roll?

  In Hollywood.

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  There is that aspect to it, but, and probably in the back of my brain, there's a part of me which is like, what have I got left to prove, you know? And what else do I, you know? But hopefully people will keep come back to the, to, to just the humanity of it. Cause I think it's more about humanity and I try to have that play throughout all the characters.

• 1:46:37Rich Roll?

  Sure. There's a sense of like, what am I, you know? I'm trying to prove to myself that I can do these things, that I can do hard things, be on the edge, learn something about myself. But fundamentally, the, the greater lesson that you're also trying to embrace is that you're already enough, dude.

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:46:56Rich Roll?

  You deserve to be loved for exactly who you are right now. You don't have to go out and accomplish anything in order to be entitled to that.

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  Well, I really hope that's the takeaway for everyone. They all go, I'm enough. You know what I mean? Because that's really, that's where it, that lands. And that's the, you know, and that's, but you know, that's also life. That's the trajectory. And I, and I love it. It's not like I'm not having a great time. I'm not, not, you know, it's not like, I meant it when I said I've never feels so alive when I'm that close to death. It wasn't, you know, I wasn't, it was all these things, these thoughts and feelings as I blur, but they all came out because I was like, you know, under these pressure cooker of feelings and emotions. I remember my, you know, I have this, I had this assistant Lindsay who became a producing partner

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  because I, I worked with her so long. She's, and this is all she ever wanted to do, work in this space. She's actually doing that with her husband now. And she, but I was like, I'd be screaming, what am I, why am I wearing this T-shirt? I was like trying to control, like the only thing I controlled was what I was, this T-shirt that I'm wearing. Why am I wearing this T-shirt? What's this one? Is this the right one? You know, because there was like continuity to the show. I was overly focused on all these little things. You know what I mean? So that is, that's an aspect of my other mind, which is like-

• 1:48:14Rich Roll?

  Right. That's, that's just your fear, like trying to hold on to something, right?

• 1:48:18Speaker 01

  Something, you know, like-

• 1:48:20Rich Roll?

  In a, in a situation in which you have no control-

• 1:48:22Speaker 01

  It's not you, it's me. It's not me, it's you. You know, it's that.

• 1:48:27Rich Roll?

  Well, you did a great job. You know, maybe before we shut this down, any, any last thoughts about what you want people to take away from the experience that you had, that you're sharing in the show? Or just in life, from your path, this kind of extraordinary journey that you've been on?

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  I think sometimes just pouring more love on it, because loving is the hardest thing. Sometimes the most scary thing, the most vulnerable thing is just to keep loving, just-

• 1:49:00Speaker 01

  Just keep giving more love to self first so that you can give to others, but just pour more love on it.

• 1:49:07Rich Roll?

  I think that's a pretty good way to end it.

• 1:49:08Speaker 01

  Cool. Thanks, man.

• 1:49:09Rich Roll?

  Good job, man. We did it.

• 1:49:11Speaker 01

  We did it.

• 1:49:12Rich Roll?

  Feel all right?

• 1:49:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like, I feel like I've, I feel like I've just gone through the wringer and I've like been, I've overexposed myself and I'm gonna just, you know.

• 1:49:21Rich Roll?

  You're, you're in a supportive, loving environment, my friend.

• 1:49:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I feel that.

• 1:49:25Rich Roll?

  We're here for you, buddy.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  I feel that. And thank you so much.

• 1:49:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's great. I loved it, man. Hopefully. I love getting to know you a little bit. It was really cool.

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  Thanks, man.

• 1:49:32Rich Roll?

  I appreciate it.

• 1:49:33Speaker 01

  Well, I love what you're doing and the messaging you've put out there. And I feel honored that like my, my, my little conversation will be up amongst some of those remarkable conversations that I've been listening to. There is an education in your show for everyone to have.

• 1:49:47Rich Roll?

  Trying to.

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  Mate, come on. It's brilliant. I'm like, that's the school of life. You're, and you, I mean, I mean it when I said I'm really grateful for the call because you curate some remarkable thinkers.

• 1:50:00Rich Roll?

  Thanks, man.

• 1:50:01Speaker 01

  It's been cool to, I'm like, I'm going back now because I had to, you know.

• 1:50:06Rich Roll?

  I got eight, eight hundred and some odd number of them for you.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:50:09Rich Roll?

  Keep you busy for a while. Keep your dyslexic brain.

• 1:50:13Speaker 01

  Engaged. Exactly. Maybe that's my new school, the school of Rick Roll.

• 1:50:16Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, come back whenever, whenever you feel like sharing a little bit more.

• 1:50:21Speaker 01

  Thanks, man. Appreciate you. I think you've run me dry for a while.

• 1:50:24Rich Roll?

  Right on.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  Peace.

• 1:50:35Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment.

• 1:51:14Rich Roll?

  This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors, who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel

• 1:51:59Rich Roll?

  Solis. And thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Piot, Trapper Piot, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.