How Much Should You Tip At A Coffee Shop?

How do restaurants decide who gets the worst tables? Why are Americans obsessed with the German supermarket chain Aldi? And should iced coffee only be consumed in hot weather?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves. I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things, I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean, whether it's their boots, their Scotch plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider. Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein

• 0:43Dan Pashman?

  Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals. Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love, like maple and brown sugar, and blueberries and cream. Quaker Protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker. Available at a store near you.

• 1:10Dan Pashman?

  This episode contains explicit language.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  Before we started recording, I had a coffee and a meat stick, and the suggested tip was like $2.50.

• 1:20Dan Pashman?

  Wait, wait, pause for a second. What?

• 1:22Speaker 02

  What kind of combination is that?

• 1:24Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, and what, what sort of meat stick? Like a kebab?

• 1:28Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. Like, like one of those sadder than a kebab. Like one of those vacuum-packed.

• 1:33Dan Pashman?

  Is it jerky? I need to know about this meat stick.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  It's jerky-adjacent. It's, it's, this is gonna sound so despicable, but it's like, it's wetter than jerky. You know what I'm talking about, right? Chomps makes them.

• 1:47Dan Pashman?

  Oh, like a, an upscale, a new thing with Slim J.?

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, upscale-ish.

• 1:55Dan Pashman?

  This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And today, we're back with another Salad Spinner, our rapid-fire, roundtable discussion of the biggest, strangest, and most surprising food stories of the moment. Joining me from Washington, D.C. is the food critic at The Washington Post, a newcomer to the Salad Spinner. It's Elizah Sontag. Hello, Elizah.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Hello. Happy to be here.

• 2:21Dan Pashman?

  And here with me in the studio in New York is returning guest Dina Shanker, who covers food and health for Bloomberg Businessweek. Welcome back, Dina.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 2:29Dan Pashman?

  All right, we're gonna jump right into it. It's time to spin the spinner. Now, Elizah, you're joining us remotely. You don't have a salad spinner to spin. Dina, would you like to do the honors? We have actual salad spinners here.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely.

• 2:39Dan Pashman?

  Pick it up, hold it by the mic, lean into it.

• 2:45Dan Pashman?

  Very good. Now stop it. Yeah, there you go. Perfect. Otherwise, it goes on too long. Dina, you recently wrote about Aldi, an 80-year-old German supermarket chain, which has a cult-like following, similar to Trader Joe's, with limited selections and very cheap prices and a huge share of private-label products. Over the past few years, they've overtaken Trader Joe's in terms of foot traffic and sales. Aldi says they're gonna open 180 stores in the U.S. this year alone, bringing them to 2,800 stores nationwide by the end of the year. First off, Dina, they've been around for 80 years. Why are they expanding now?

• 3:18Speaker 02

  So it's just like a perfect time for a supermarket that has, as its main attraction, low prices. They came here in the '70s, but they were pretty slow-going. And then it was really in the financial crisis, 2008 to 2011, that they started really pushing. And they've been pushing pretty hard ever since. And grocery prices being like headline news these days, and have been for years now, it is just perfect timing for them.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  I'm just thinking that something about the appeal to when, you know, you might be pinching your pennies, you still feel like you can get these sort of scores. Like, you're not just hunting for bargains. You might be getting something really precious. And I think that also takes a little bit of the edge off of our economic reality, which is just, you know, sort of trying to find the bottom dollar.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Oh, totally. It's fun. Like, I don't know if you guys ever went to sample sales, but that was a big part of my twenties in New York.

• 4:18Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  And it was like, you'd go, and the idea of, I might find something in this weird warehouse.

• 4:24Dan Pashman?

  So, I have not been to Aldi. I have been to Lidl, which is another low-cost German chain that's grown rapidly in the US in recent years. How does Aldi compare to Lidl?

• 4:34Speaker 02

  So, it's really interesting because in Europe, there are rivals. Aldi came first. Lidl is kind of the copycat. And then Lidl started pulling ahead. Here in the US, Aldi is just way ahead of Lidl. And what I've been told is that the consistency between stores at Lidl, they've had a lot of turnover at the top. So like, the stores just aren't very much the same one to the other. So like, I went to one in Brooklyn, right around the corner from an Aldi that had just opened, and it was like, empty. I have to say, I don't want to get myself in trouble with Aldi, but I think the Lidl produce is better. But the experience is so much more fun at Aldi because it is just sort of crazier.

• 5:18Dan Pashman?

  I can confirm the inconsistency at Lidl, because there are two in our area, and they do have some really good bread there. And they have a slicer. You get to put it through a machine that slices the bread for you. But at one of the Lidl's near us, they don't have the slicer. And the other one, they do.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Oh, Aldi would never have something like that. They do not have fresh bakery. They're not doing any, like, a slicer? You know what a slicer means? There's got to be a person that fixes that slicer when it breaks. It's got to be cleaned. These are all things that take man-hours. And Aldi is stripping every bell and whistle out of the business plan.

• 5:50Dan Pashman?

  But like, to me, there's a lot of stores that have this sort of like, we're a warehouse, no frills, like, pass the savings on to you. And that's, I'm all for that. Lidl, those stores are like, oh, look, it's a disorganized pile of cardboard boxes. And one of the boxes had been torn open. And the product you're supposed to buy is pouring out onto the floor. Like, that's just, that's a little more than no frills.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Well, it's funny, when I was doing this story and I was talking to someone, I was really still in the beginning of my reporting, and I was speaking with this consultant, and I was like, I've been in a couple, Aldi's, they do not look efficient. Like, they do not have that, like, German, like, orderliness. And he was like, no, the efficiency and the orderliness, like, you can't see it. So, the reason that there are so many broken eggs spilling out and nobody is coming to clean them up is because they keep staff low, and they keep staff low because that brings prices down. So, sure, there's some yucky stuff, and it's funny because, really, even for Aldi, like, even the nice stores will have some messiness, some out of stocks, whatever, but then there are some really grungy ones.

• 6:59Dan Pashman?

  So you're saying people don't mind stepping over some egg yolk slicks if it means saving some money?

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, in this economy?

• 7:07Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. Elizar, do you have a take on Aldi and/or Lidl?

• 7:11Speaker 01

  I think that, yes, there is a bottom dollar factor, but I do think there's also a cultural buy-in to these kinds of businesses, especially that are rising really quickly in the US, where, like, there is a collective excitement. And I don't mean to diminish, you know, the reality of people are just looking for inexpensive groceries, but I think there's also something to it, you know, it's not my preferred grocery store, but when I am in an Aldi or a Lidl, you know, there is a sense of, like, everyone knows the assignment. They get why they're there. You don't really have people who are, you know, waiting for a customer service rep so they can complain about the grapes that got bruised.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  There is no customer service rep.

• 7:49Dan Pashman?

  Right, right.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  And that's not why you're there. And I think that there's actually sort of an odd appeal to that of, like, an almost we're all in this together element of, like, we're here, we're here to shop. Like, it's kind of mercenary, you know, the boxes go out, you take from them till they're empty, and then you move it to the side and you get the next one. It's like, you know why you're there, and I think people who don't want that, they, they kind of self-select out of that grocery store ecosystem pretty quickly.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Aldi, they have, number one is, they really do have some great food, like, their cheese selection. Their burrata is better than much more expensive burrata that I've had.

• 8:26Dan Pashman?

  Wow.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  And it's like really cheap.

• 8:28Dan Pashman?

  Shots fired. I'm gonna get some burrata after this.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  You totally should.

• 8:31Dan Pashman?

  All right.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  The middle aisle is their big excitement draw. It changes every week. You might find a really cheap outdoor pizza oven. Like, they were selling one one summer for like $99. Those things go for like over $1,000 for fancy brands. I happen to be reporting this story during the winter. So like a lot of our Hanukkah presents were all the middle aisle finds.

• 8:54Dan Pashman?

  Right, right.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  I found some great German herring in there. Like, you never know. And then you go back and look for it, and it's gone. And that's, but there's something else.

• 9:01Dan Pashman?

  I think that that contributes to the sort of gamification of the shopping experience.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  And that's why you can keep going back, because it's never the same game.

• 9:08Dan Pashman?

  Right. And then when you find something great, there's a thrill to it. Like, you feel like you won the game, which is sort of like more exciting than just getting your groceries.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  When I found that herring, and I brought it back, I won the wife game. My husband was so excited.

• 9:27Dan Pashman?

  All right, it's time to spin the spinner again. All right, here we go.

• 9:37Dan Pashman?

  Elizar, you cover restaurants in DC. And as part of your work, you take questions from readers, not just about food itself, but about all aspects of restaurants. Recently, several readers have written to you about how seating works in different restaurants. How does a restaurant decide who gets the bad tables, like the one by the bathroom? And why does anyone get a bad table when a restaurant isn't busy?

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Well, I'd like to preface this by just saying that, you know, like you said, I'm taking questions from Washington Post subscribers on a weekly basis about really almost everything. People often are asking about how they're treated in restaurants, and especially, you know, where they're being sat, whether they're being ignored or paid attention to, you know, based on specific demographics. So, you know, my readers run the gamut. But often, these questions will come from older readers, readers who are dining solo. Like, there is a layering on top of this that I just want to note, that like, people feel like it's personal.

• 10:34Dan Pashman?

  Right. And there is this idea, especially in more upscale or wannabe trendy places, that they're gonna put, you know, the most conventionally beautiful, well-dressed, fashionable, cool-looking people in the window.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Is that why I always end up in the window?

• 10:50Dan Pashman?

  Yes, that's right.

• 10:52Dan Pashman?

  Elizar's like, I don't know what they're talking about. No one ever sees me by the bathroom. Like certainly, my mom is always making comments about like, well, you know, they sent me and your father in the back because they don't want anyone to see us. So how much truth is there to all of this, Elizar?

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Well, I think that the great and constant answer is it depends. You know, it completely depends on the restaurant. But I don't want to completely invalidate people's suspicions. I do think that often an older couple or, you know, an older solo diner will get cast away, for lack of a gentler term. And, you know, if they don't end up with a really bad table, they might end up with just a kind of a lackluster experience. But, you know, what I try to remind people in this chat is that restaurants are really complicated and really challenging businesses to run on a day to day. And there are all of these webs of decisions that are being made behind the scenes.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  And so, you know, there might be prime tables that are being put aside for reservations. Of course, there might be sections of the restaurant that just aren't being serviced because it's a slow night and there's only one or two servers. You know, that a server is probably not in a medium sized restaurant, running the whole floor. They have a section.

• 12:12Dan Pashman?

  But you would think, and this is one of the questions that you take on here, Elizar, is why does anyone get a bad table and the restaurant isn't busy? You would think that if the restaurant isn't busy, then the half of the place that they wouldn't be seating would be the bad half.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Would be the bad half. I think that's fair. And, you know, I do always try to give people some at least tidbit of actionable advice. You know, I try not to be just, oh, restaurants are so complicated. You wouldn't get it. And what I tell people to do, especially if a restaurant is quiet, is ask to move. I wouldn't do it halfway through the meal. Like you have to have some amount of, you know, decisiveness. But if you walk into a restaurant and you feel like you're being sort of cast away and there's lots of tables, point to the table you want and ask if you can have it.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  I will say with the restaurants and the seating and all the things that happen at restaurants, I just feel like hospitality has just been on a downward slope for a long time. I think there's some blame that probably goes to customers for maybe being too pushy and too demanding. And we all forgot how to behave after COVID and all of that stuff. But I think going out to a restaurant for most of us is a treat and we're paying good money for it. And we should feel comfortable to say, oh, can I have that table actually? Or, I mean, like I've, I think I've never, I don't think, sent back a dish. But like, I think we should be more comfortable with that.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  I totally agree, but I do think the river runs fiercely both ways. I think that it would be a disservice to understate how poorly diners started acting during and post pandemic. You know, I spend a good amount of time talking to chefs and there really is a sense that diners are essentially no longer house trained. And so I think that the relationship, it has become more transactional, but I think it's also just become a little bit more tense. That restaurants are sort of on edge, they're worried about whether people are going to tip properly, whether they're going to be, you know, on their phones, using flash, all these things at the table.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  And like, it's created a weird dynamic and I don't mean to, you know, cast off blame from restaurants that are really phoning it in. But it's just, it's, it's a weird time, I think, on all fronts. And I do think that diners have kind of screwed the pooch.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  I think, of course, we should probably accept some responsibility for it. But like, there's a restaurant near me, a really old school Italian restaurant, like a, you know, special occasion kind of restaurant. And if we split a Caesar salad, they come over and they split it for us. And I remember the first time that that happened, it was like, oh, that's right. They're serving us. Like, it's not for us to sort of scrape it off the plate. We're spending a lot of money. Conclusion, ask for the table you want.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Ask for the table you want, and if it's not available.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  Be gracious.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Be gracious, and you can also ask why.

• 15:07Dan Pashman?

  All right, we're gonna take a quick break. Coming up, how much should you be tipping in cafes or bakeries? Counter service situations, what's right? It's a very heated debate, we're gonna get into it, stick around.

• 15:23Speaker 03

  Hope you're hungry because it's time for some ads.

• 15:28Dan Pashman?

  There's nothing quite like Aruba. The white sand beaches are truly unlike anything you've seen. But what really stands out is the food. Because Aruba's not like other Caribbean islands. French pastries, Spanish paella, Peruvian barbecue, papardelle that has no business being that good, that far from Florence. Not to mention the local fair. Aruba's food scene pulls you in with its astonishing variety of cuisines and beyond satisfies you with its unexpected flavors. So plan your escape to culinary delight at aruba.com. Your taste buds will thank you. As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves. I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things,

• 16:12Dan Pashman?

  I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean. Whether it's their boots, their Scotch plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider. Start the day strong with Quaker protein products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker protein products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals. Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love, like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next.

• 16:57Dan Pashman?

  Get your protein with Quaker, available at a store near you.

• 17:04Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. Last week on the show, I talked with Grace Pack, a cake artist and baker of America's official 250th birthday cake. Grace is known for making incredibly elaborate cakes. She's been on Is It Cake? But she actually started as an artist. Then at age 30, she decided on a whim to go to culinary school and make cakes. She found, though, when she got there that she was a little different from her classmates.

• 17:28Speaker 04

  I think I was probably the only one who had never baked a cake before. So everyone came in with experience.

• 17:32Dan Pashman?

  You literally had never baked a cake?

• 17:34Speaker 04

  I think probably two or three times I baked a boxed cake.

• 17:38Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 17:39Speaker 04

  But no, I had never baked anything from scratch. It was just boxed cakes three times, maybe, growing up.

• 17:43Dan Pashman?

  Were you even like a home cook?

• 17:44Speaker 04

  No, no, never cooked. I never, but I was a big booty. My mom.

• 17:52Dan Pashman?

  Now Grace is working on America's birthday cake, which will be the size of a car. It'll get its own special cake cutting ceremony at the Library of Congress on July 4th, and I get to try a sample of the cake. Then I get to go to DC to see a member of Congress help decorate it. It's a lot of fun. That one's up now. Check it out. And make sure you stay tuned to the end of this show for a special segment featuring a great story about food, family, and soccer. Sponsored by Miralax. All right, let's get back into the show. I'm joined once again by Elizahr Sontag, food critic at The Washington Post. Hello, Elizahr.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 18:23Dan Pashman?

  And Dina Shanker of Bloomberg Businessweek. Hello, Dina.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 18:27Dan Pashman?

  All right. Should we spin the spinner?

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:29Dan Pashman?

  All right.

• 18:34Dan Pashman?

  Tipping continues to be a very hot topic. So many articles, so much discussion. And I'll start with you here, Dina, but I want to hear from Elizahr, too. Look, forever, we have tipped. When you go to a restaurant, you have sit-down service. You tip the server. But increasingly, as we pay for everything with credit cards, counter service, getting a cup of coffee, grabbing a muffin, getting a bubble tea, you use your credit card and you're asked to tip 15%, 20%, 22%, 25% sometimes. So what are your thoughts on this, Dina?

• 19:04Speaker 02

  I think it sucks. I think, I mean, it's probably a good reason to use cash more, which I never thought of until right now. But I always tip because it feels like you're an asshole if you don't, and a cheap asshole, which is the worst kind of asshole. So I always tip, but it's funny because the amount I'm gonna tip is like so random. Like 15% might be like 72 cents or whatever. So I'm gonna tip a dollar. And now it all, these things do add up really fast and I think are just one of the reasons that it feels like all of a sudden everything costs a million dollars. On my way here, I passed a guy in the street saying, I'm just laughing because I'm gonna really

• 19:48Speaker 02

  push the envelope on the cursing on air. But he was like, she wanted fucking $20 for a nice coffee. And I was like, that's right. I bet she did.

• 19:58Dan Pashman?

  Eliza, our thoughts on this tipping question?

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Oh my god, I mean, my, my life is filled with questions of tipping. You know, when I was at Bon Appetit, before I went to The Post, I essentially spent years editing and assigning stories about tipping etiquette. Then I came to The Post, and in this weekly chat that I host, we almost always cover tipping. So I think about tipping endlessly. You know, I'll give you my personal feeling first, which is, I can afford to tip, and I don't want to spend that much time shaking my fist at the sky or thinking about it. So I tip on everything. And frankly, I don't lose that much sleep over it.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  But it is a significant shift to tip, or to be at least prompted to tip 20% on a coffee order. You know, so in my personal life, really, I try not to think that much about tipping. I try to be thankful for the service that I'm getting. And because we are now being prompted to tip on all these things, you know, this sounds saccharine, but it's true. I really do try to take the opportunity to just be like, you know what? That was a really nice barista. And I'll drop $1.50, and I'll move on. But the biggest thing that has changed in my life and how I'm talking to other people about tipping is that because people are now expected to tip on so many different elements of their lives, they also feel exasperated by tipping in restaurants.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Like, I think that there's been a negative overflow effect, which has been damaging to restaurants. People are pissed that they just paid $2 on a coffee, or maybe even got prompted at their local grocery store before they came to the restaurant. And so it sort of boils over. And I think that's actually a really messy, complicated dynamic, because a restaurant worker might be getting a tipped minimum wage, which could be just a few dollars.

• 21:49Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  You know, the tip that the barista's getting, I believe at least in, in many cities, is going to be a full minimum wage. It's a complicated...

• 21:57Dan Pashman?

  I mean, to me, that's a huge part of it. And look, I want every person to get a fair and livable wage for the job that they're doing. When it comes to restaurant servers, they're way... Wage has long been, as you say, a big part of what they're supposed to make is the tips. For a long time, we've known tipping is a problematic system on a number of levels. It makes for very inconsistent income because you could have a good week or a bad week. People vary tipping based on gender, based on race. So it's not a very good system, but it appears that we're stuck with it. The counter service question, to me, like in that situation, a tip is supposed to be like a bonus. Because those people are getting paid minimum wage, which I hope in the place they live is a fair and livable wage for them.

• 22:41Dan Pashman?

  If it isn't, I think it should be, but it shouldn't be my job as the tipper to make, you know, to bring them up to the level they're supposed to be at. It should be up to the laws and up to their employer. But like, what bothers me is the 20% on, let's say, $30. Let's say I'm going to a bakery and I'm gonna get a cup of coffee and a couple of, you know, really nice artisanal loaves of bread and a couple of cookies to snack on on the ride home. And it's $30 and the thing comes up 20%. $6 is a lot to tip for a 45 second transaction. When this, all this person did is put two loaves of bread in a paper bag and fill a cup of coffee. Like, the whole thing was 45 seconds. $6 feels like a lot. So that's more my issue is the 20% on $30, $40 when you're getting a number of things at a counter.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  You know, one thing that changed post pandemic and maybe for the better in terms of how people view restaurants and bakeries and food businesses is that we understand a little better now how tenuous the whole structure is. You know, that it is so fragile and that these businesses that we love, you know, we don't necessarily go to them as some kind of public service. We go because we like them. We go because we like to eat. But, but we know now, I think, slightly better how slim the margins are. And honestly, at how many of these places, people really aren't making a livable wage, even when it is minimum, you know, that a minimum wage is very, very rarely a living wage.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  And I try to be very careful not to sort of chastise people for not wanting to tip 20% on a $30 bakery order. Totally fair. I get it. But I also do think that, you know, you're not tipping on the 45. Second interaction, you're tipping to support a semi-broken system because there is an element of American life that you love. And we support so many broken parts of our American system. I think bakeries, restaurants, boutique little wine and grocery stores. In my mind, those are the ones worth propping up if we have to prop up anything. And we do, we know we do.

• 24:44Dan Pashman?

  All right, that's a good take. I do like that, Al Azar.

• 24:49Dan Pashman?

  All right, we can take another quick break. Coming up, Diet Coke has a new rival. And this time, the call is coming from inside the house. Stick around.

• 25:02Dan Pashman?

  It's time to open up a can of advertisements.

• 25:08Dan Pashman?

  There's nothing quite like Aruba. The white sand beaches are truly unlike anything you've seen. But what really stands out is the food. Because Aruba is not like other Caribbean islands. French pastries, Spanish paella, Peruvian barbecue, papardelle that has no business being that good that far from Florence. Not to mention the local fair. Aruba's food scene pulls you in with its astonishing variety of cuisines and beyond satisfies you with its unexpected flavors. So plan your escape to culinary delight at aruba.com. Your taste buds will thank you. Start the day strong with Quaker protein products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker protein products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals.

• 25:53Dan Pashman?

  Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love, like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker, available at a store near you.

• 26:07Dan Pashman?

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• 26:40Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back and we're joined once again by Elizah Rasan, Tag of the Washington Post, and Deena Shankar of Bloomberg Businessweek. Welcome back to you both.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 26:48Dan Pashman?

  Let's spin the spinner.

• 26:52Dan Pashman?

  Very good. I asked each of you to bring a hot take to this conversation. Deena, what's your hot take?

• 26:59Speaker 02

  So my hot take is that coffee should be hot and people who drink iced coffee in anything less than, say, like 95 degrees indirect sun are wimps.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Oh, gay people are gonna hate this one.

• 27:17Dan Pashman?

  Is iced coffee in cold weather a gay thing?

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Totally. It is like, it is like the flag of the community. Oh yeah, you just, you just drove, you just drove an anti-pride flag through the heart of America. But that's okay. Speak your truth. It's too late now.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Coffee is a hot drink. It is a hot drink. And unless it is like scorching, sizzling, and you are dying and need to cool down and need caffeine at the same time, and you, then I'll let you have that iced coffee without getting a glare from me, but it is a hot drink.

• 27:51Dan Pashman?

  When I was younger, I was very much like iced coffee all year round. As I've gotten older and the life force is slowly draining from my body, I'm generally not as hot anymore. Like, I have a higher tolerance to hot weather. I wear sweaters indoors, which I would never, used to be able to tolerate.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Wait, is this happening to you because I'm getting old? Like, is that why I'm like, it's not so hot outside because I'm getting older?

• 28:12Dan Pashman?

  Yes, yes. We're all turning into the kinds of people who will be in Florida wearing like cable knit sweaters when it drops under 85.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  Sounds lovely.

• 28:22Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. So, Deena, we know where you stand. Elizah, I gather you are pro iced coffee all year round?

• 28:27Speaker 01

  I think I kind of agree just because I like the take, but really, I, I just stick with iced because, I don't know, it's what I know, it's what I love. But if it makes you happy, then I think you should, you should oscillate with the seasons.

• 28:43Dan Pashman?

  But Elizah, in fall, winter, and early spring, what percentage of your coffee orders are iced coffee? Roughly, what percentage are hot coffee?

• 28:53Speaker 01

  90% iced.

• 28:54Dan Pashman?

  90% iced? Even in the dead of winter, you would say 90% iced?

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Yes, but, no, there's no but. That's really it. I'm almost always drinking iced coffee these days.

• 29:07Dan Pashman?

  Elizar, what's your hot take?

• 29:09Speaker 01

  My hot take is caviar is almost never a good sign.

• 29:14Dan Pashman?

  Like, in a restaurant, you're saying?

• 29:16Speaker 01

  In a restaurant.

• 29:17Dan Pashman?

  Now, are you saying caviar, if they're doing like a, just like caviar and crackers kind of situation? You're saying like caviar on top of something?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  More caviar on top of something. I'm not a caviar hater. I like caviar. You know, I remember a not-so-distant past when it was being dispatched at fancy restaurants as like a really special ingredient, you know, where it would end up on a dish and the whole point of the dish was to let everything recede to the background so you could just taste that amazing fish roe. That is not the world we are living in at all. And you don't have to go to a particularly good restaurant to get a lot of caviar. You know, it feels price gougie, for one. But two, caviar is really salty. And so, a lot of what ends up happening is, you know, you're eating very expensive food

• 30:08Speaker 01

  and it feels a little bit like a cash grab. And it also really just tastes like salt. And so, as a restaurant critic, I've started to view caviar sort of through that lens. And I actually sometimes will avoid a restaurant, or at least walk in sort of cautious if there are just these caviar supplements on everything.

• 30:29Dan Pashman?

  I like this take a lot because I feel like it's something that restaurants do. It's not just caviar. It's for so long, it's been like truffle, truffle oil, truffle fries, truffle this, truffle that. I mean, some places like the gold flakes, which is total gimmick. But like lobster, like lobster mac and cheese.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Totally, or uni.

• 30:46Dan Pashman?

  Uni, yes. And it's part of why any of these foods, lobster, caviar, truffles, uni, why fancy food people revere these is because they have a lot of subtlety and complexity to their taste. And as soon as you mix them with a bunch of other stuff, whatever you're mixing them with, you lose all that. And yes, they're very expensive, but I would much rather have fresh shaved truffles, like a $75 pasta dish, once every other year, than to have-

• 31:16Dan Pashman?

  Oil sprinkled on my french fries once a week. And same with caviar, like I would rather have some super fancy caviar service once every other year and spend a lot of money on it than to have caviar dumped in every other thing that I'm eating.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's how I want to eat caviar is where I'm eating caviar and like a cracker, or maybe it's like a little bit of caviar on something like a deviled egg or something like that. If I saw more than once on the same menu, that doesn't seem right. Somebody got a big shipment and they're looking to just offload it.

• 31:54Dan Pashman?

  Time now for the lightning round. Dunkin merch is having a moment. Tote bags are selling out from stores. Dunkin has debuted donut scented candles as well as tracksuits. And over the winter, listen to this, Dina. Dunkin even gave away a single pink mitten to keep your hand warm while holding an iced coffee. Because especially in Massachusetts, which Dunkin calls home, people drink iced coffee even in the winter. Dunkin merch, love it or hate it?

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Dunkin merch, ugh.

• 32:22Dan Pashman?

  Elizar, would you wear a Dunkin tracksuit?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  I would wear a Dunkin tracksuit if I loved Dunkin. I like that people are doing it, but it's not for me.

• 32:30Dan Pashman?

  Well, as a person who learned to drink coffee in Massachusetts, I would definitely wear a Dunkin tracksuit.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  And you would look dashing.

• 32:38Dan Pashman?

  Thank you. I appreciate that.

• 32:42Dan Pashman?

  Next up in the lightning round. Unilever is getting into the wellness gummy business. Dina, you covered this story as the packaged food industry has been on the decline. Wellness products have grown. Unilever is getting in on the action. They acquired this product called Groons. Terrible name. I can't believe this thing has taken off. G R U N S with an umlaut over the U. Dina, what is Groons? Why does it have an umlaut? And was this a good bet for Unilever?

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Groons is a supplement. It's a gummy supplement. It's essentially a multivitamin. But in the supplement world, what they say is in there doesn't necessarily mean is what's in there. When I asked the company for study backing up their claims, they said they did not have one.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  You know, Unilever is betting that people will keep buying these things. And that's probably a good bet now. Whether it's like a good bet in terms of like, it actually makes sense long term, or like this is a good product, no comment.

• 33:45Dan Pashman?

  Okay. Elizah, thoughts on wellness gummies?

• 33:49Speaker 01

  I actually think that groons, despite being a little bit like mowed lawn flavor, are sort of tasty. But it's, it's interesting. I, I actually don't think it's gonna last. I think that young people are, this is an optimistic take, but I think young people are gonna start moving back towards data. I think young people do actually want facts and not being able to back up your claims with studies is probably not a great look for a billion dollar gummy company.

• 34:21Dan Pashman?

  Continuing with our lightning round. Diet Coke has a new rival, Coke Zero. The Wall Street Journal reports that while Diet Coke has long been the dominant diet soda in the US, Coke Zero sales are surging while sales of Diet Coke have been flat for 20 years. The rise of Coke Zero is largely due to the fact that it's more like original Coke, not just in flavor, but in mouth feel, which I think cannot be undercounted in this situation. It's also helped by the branding. Coke Zero is in a red can or bottle, so it looks more like original Coke. Elizah, team Diet Coke or Coke Zero?

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Ugh, I mean, not to sound so bougie, but team neither. I grew up in a hippie family in Berkeley. I was not allowed to drink soda as a kid. So this is like so far outside of my orbit. And I also, I'm a Sprite person. So if I'm drinking soda, it's Sprite.

• 35:08Dan Pashman?

  So you drink soda, you're just too good for Coke Zero?

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't distill it quite like that, but sure, let's, let's go with that.

• 35:17Dan Pashman?

  If you were having a meat stick and a groon for lunch, would you rather chase it with a Diet Coke or a Coke Zero?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  I would rather chase it with a Sprite. I just told you. Am I somewhere where I can't find Sprite? Explain that to me.

• 35:32Dan Pashman?

  Dina.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Diet Coke.

• 35:33Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  I mean, I wasn't in a sorority, but I hung out with a lot of sorority girls. So I just feel like Diet Coke was just part of the culture.

• 35:43Dan Pashman?

  I grew up drinking Diet Coke when I drank soda, but I gotta say I've converted Coke Zero for the reason that they say, like, it tastes more like original Coke and it has more of that, like, slightly sticky syrupy mouth feel that I think is very delicious and satisfying to me.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  The truth is, I'm really not a soda drinker like Elizah. I also grew up in a family where we never had soda, but every once in a while, I just, like, really want a Diet Coke.

• 36:12Dan Pashman?

  One more story in the lightning round. Mrs. Fields is not just an iconic cookie company, it's a real person, Debbie Fields. She launched the company in 1977 and reshaped the cookie industry. Now, one of her daughters is starting her own cookie business called Fields Good. And since we're in 2026, it's a wellness cookie brand. There's a cookie with creatine that's supposed to help you focus, there's one with protein, natch, and a sleep cookie with its own calming supplement. To be clear, the evidence that any of these supplements do any of the things that the company claims is very thin. Debbie Fields, the original Mrs. Fields, is quoted in the New York Times saying, "I am zero involved."

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 36:57Dan Pashman?

  Dina, are you excited to try Fields Good Cookies? And if so, would you take the one that helps you focus, gives you protein, or helps you sleep?

• 37:06Speaker 02

  I mean, this sounds like a real Nepo baby situation, which I didn't know happened in the food world. I am not interested in those cookies, but I'll take a Mrs. Fields.

• 37:15Dan Pashman?

  Okay, Elizah, what's your take?

• 37:17Speaker 01

  First of all, Fields Good is like one of the great business names. Someone should become rich just off of that little glimmer of genius. Not the creatine cookie, because creatine needs to build up in your system for, like, months to do anything. And also, it never worked for me. I did not get big hulking muscles when I tried creatine. So, no. You know, I'm scared of, what's the sleep supplement called that gives some people, like, terrifying nightmares?

• 37:44Dan Pashman?

  Oh, melatonin.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  I am not getting near it. So I guess I'm doing a protein cookie.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Doesn't that just sound, I think that sounds really sad.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  A little sad?

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a little, we're living in sad times. But maybe a protein cookie is just the thing.

• 37:59Dan Pashman?

  I just feel like this, the whole mentality, and we see this across so many different aspects of food, of combining different things that don't need to be combined.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:10Dan Pashman?

  Enjoy a cookie and then eat some chicken for your protein. Have some fish, have some beans. Those things are very good for you. They have protein. When you're gonna have a cookie, just eat a really good cookie and enjoy it.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  I wholeheartedly agree.

• 38:26Dan Pashman?

  The underlying feeling that I think is reflected, that's in the culture, is that like, you should feel bad about just having a cookie. Like, you have to justify eating this cookie. I'm not just enjoying a cookie. You know, I'm getting my protein, or it's gonna help me sleep, or it's gonna... Like, it has to be functional. Everything has to be functional. It can't just be for pleasure anymore. Like, just eat a goddamn cookie and enjoy it and feel good about this delicious cookie. It doesn't have to serve a function beyond pleasure. Is pleasure not a function anymore? These functional foods and functional beverages? Eating or drinking something delicious is a function. That is my point.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  I'm snapping in agreement.

• 39:08Dan Pashman?

  All right, Elizah R. Snapping.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  I'm nodding.

• 39:10Dan Pashman?

  Thank you. All right, I appreciate it. Thank you, I feel validated.

• 39:15Dan Pashman?

  All right, that wraps up this edition of the Salad Spinner. Elizah Sontag is the food critic at The Washington Post. Elizah, where can people find your work?

• 39:23Speaker 01

  You can find my work at washingtonpost.com or on Instagram at E underscore Zar.

• 39:28Dan Pashman?

  All right, thank you so much, Elizah.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 39:31Dan Pashman?

  And Deena Shankar covers food and health for Bloomberg Businessweek. Deena, where should people look for your work?

• 39:35Speaker 02

  You can find it on Bloomberg.com. And also, I post a lot on LinkedIn, like, a little too much, but you'll find my work there, too.

• 39:44Dan Pashman?

  Can anyone connect with you on LinkedIn?

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Anyone can try.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 39:49Dan Pashman?

  Oh, snoodle. All right, Deena, thank you so much.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you so much.

• 39:58Dan Pashman?

  Next week on the show, as we kick summer into high gear, I head to Woodman's, a New England institution that claims to have invented fried clams. I talk with the owner and hear stories about the place from two regulars, my parents. That's next week. While you wait for that, we'll check out last week's show, all about America's 250th birthday cake, which will be unveiled July 4th. Listen to this show and then when the cake is unveiled, you'll be able to say, I know the whole story of that cake. I do get a sneak peek, but it turns out baker Grace Pack doesn't have an exact plan yet. She's kind of winging it. How's that working out? Check out that episode now. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the Sirius XM app? Yes, the Sirius XM app, it has all your favorite

• 40:39Dan Pashman?

  podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the Sirius XM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. This episode was produced by me along with managing producer,

• 41:05Speaker 05

  Emma Morgenstern, and senior producer, Andres O'Hara. It was edited by Camille Stanley,

• 41:09Dan Pashman?

  our technical director is Jared O'Connell, music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Sirius XM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Paschmeyer.

• 41:19Speaker 05

  And I'm Kelly from Indianapolis, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 41:37Dan Pashman?

  This segment is brought to you by Miralax. So I'm an absolute soccer nerd. I grew up watching the sport literally from sunrise to sunset. The biggest soccer tournament in the world is underway, so we're talking to fans to hear about their favorite soccer memories. Today, I'm speaking with Diego Toro. I would wake up and watch European soccer, all the way to South American soccer during midday, to Mexican soccer.

• 41:59Speaker 06

  I get that from my dad, a huge soccer nerd himself, and I just can't seem to scratch the bug away.

• 42:05Dan Pashman?

  So the mother of all soccer events is upon us. So what's this time of year like for you?

• 42:11Speaker 06

  Craziness, the wave of the vu vu zuelas and the crowds cheering and the soccer ball hitting the net. Everything is slowly getting louder and louder. Then you start to get the itch like, oh. And the fact that it's here in my home country, it's going to be absolutely amazing.

• 42:26Dan Pashman?

  While Diego is very excited this year, the 2022 final was even more special for him because it was a family affair. He has three brothers, but two of them were raised in South America by other fathers. Shortly before the finals, Diego's mother got married in Georgia. It was the first time all four brothers were united with their mother in one place. And now they'd be able to watch the culmination of the tournament together. How are you feeling like that morning?

• 42:48Speaker 06

  Like a kid, that was my Christmas that year. From the moment I wake up, all I think about is the final. And yes, obviously we're there for the wedding and to be around family. But for me, in the back of my head, I knew the final with my four brothers and my mom, I have to make it special.

• 43:03Dan Pashman?

  So you decide we gotta make the food special?

• 43:05Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 43:06Dan Pashman?

  So it's Argentina versus France in a match taking place in Qatar. So what's the menu?

• 43:13Speaker 06

  Oh, so I thought let me get a few dishes that are French, some Middle Eastern dishes. And then my absolute favorite cuisine, Argentinian.

• 43:21Dan Pashman?

  For French food, they got beef bourguignon, cocovan and steak frites. For Middle Eastern, kebabs, shawarma, stuffed grape leaves. And representing Argentina, there was beef asado.

• 43:32Speaker 06

  And then one of my favorite choripán, which is chorizo encrusted bread. Oh, with your little chimichurri sauce, which Argentinian is.

• 43:42Dan Pashman?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 43:43Speaker 06

  And then my favorite thing in the world, Argentinian empanadas, specifically beef empanadas. The white flour, the way they deep fry it, the crust, it's salty but a little sweet. And with the meat, oh my goodness, I, Argentinians make the best empanadas, hands down. I, absolutely.

• 44:02Dan Pashman?

  Well, if anyone's upset with that comment, you can reach out to Diego.

• 44:08Dan Pashman?

  I'll set the scene. The match is about to start. The food has all been delivered. Diego's brothers are all there with their mother, as well as other family members. Diego's mom is from Ecuador. His father's from Colombia. So out of allegiance to South America, everyone there is pulling for Argentina.

• 44:22Speaker 06

  Not one person there was rooting for France.

• 44:26Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 44:27Dan Pashman?

  Now, in that match, Argentina went up 2-0 early. How are you feeling at that point?

• 44:33Speaker 06

  Buzzing. Buzzing.

• 44:35Dan Pashman?

  And they maintained that 2-0 lead well into the second half. And 10 minutes left to go, 10 or 15 minutes left, you're like, we just gotta hold on.

• 44:45Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:46Dan Pashman?

  And then France scores two quick goals and suddenly it's tied. What are you feeling in that moment?

• 44:53Speaker 06

  The oxygen was sucked out of the room. All the excitement, the fiery passion, screaming at the TV, gone. Everyone's silent. Everyone's tense. No one has touched the food now.

• 45:04Dan Pashman?

  So the match goes into extra time. And then one of the things that almost never happens is that both teams score in extra time. So Argentina scored first, right? So they go up 3-2 in extra time. And again, you're like, all we gotta do is hold on.

• 45:15Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 45:16Dan Pashman?

  And then France scores again at the last possible second to send it to penalty kicks.

• 45:22Speaker 06

  It's brutal. It's brutal.

• 45:24Dan Pashman?

  Did anyone eat during the extra time?

• 45:26Speaker 06

  Oh, no. My poor mother was putting the food away because she knew it was about to happen.

• 45:30Dan Pashman?

  She was afraid you guys were gonna be upset.

• 45:32Speaker 06

  Absolutely. I'm looking at my cousin. I'm looking at my brothers. I mean, the fact that we're all together is great, but I didn't think about the fact that we could potentially lose this and we're gonna be very sad afterwards. And then the penalty kick starts. Every single walk to the ball, every second, it felt like an eternity. One save after another, one after another. And Noah Molina scores that last free kick. Argentina lifts the title. And it's forever cemented in history and legacy. It was beautiful. The first thing I did was screamed up into the sky and I started crying. And then it's just hugs and tears and partying and drinks being thrown up in the Airbnb that we had to pay for.

• 46:16Dan Pashman?

  I imagine you're going back to the fridge and bring the food back out.

• 46:19Speaker 06

  You're absolutely correct. My poor mom heating up the food. And what's funny is everybody ended up enjoying the French food a lot better and a lot more after the game than during the game.

• 46:33Dan Pashman?

  Thanks again to the sponsor of today's segment, Miralax. You know, lots of things can lead to constipation, from a change in your routine or diet to stress. And when you're traveling, it can be hard to stand top of your water intake. Maybe you're eating poorly, you're not drinking enough water. Miralax provides gentle constipation relief. Look, there's no shame in it. It happens, and you need something to help you, right? Well, Miralax comes in a bottle or mixed in packs that are easy to put in your luggage, pocket, or bag for on-the-go relief. You just mix one packet into four to eight ounces of liquid, stir, and drink. It works naturally with the water in your body to hydrate and soften for a comfortable go. Again, we all do it. Let's do it comfortably with Miralax. It doesn't cause harsh side effects, no cramping, bloating, gas, or sudden urgency.

• 47:16Dan Pashman?

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• 47:46Speaker 03

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• 47:59Speaker 04

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