S3 Ep300: Peggy Klinke: Stalked, Ignored, and Silenced (Part 1)

**If you or someone you know is experiencing stalking or domestic violence, there is help. Contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 or visit www.thehotline.org.**Peggy Klinke was a vibrant young woman whose life would be derailed by a relationship with a man named Patrick Kennedy. What began as just a short romance became a years-long campaign of stalking, threats, vandalism, arson, and psychological terror—all of which Peggy documented in painstaking detail. Despite her repeated cries for help, the justice system would fail her again and again: law enforcement would ignore her, and Patrick's obsession would eventually escalate into violence. We're coming to CrimeCon Denver! Use our code CRIMEWEEKLY for 10% off your tickets!https://www.crimecon.com/CC25Try our coffee!! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www. HelloFresh.com/CrimeWeekly10FM - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY10FM to get 10 FREE meals and a FREE item for life!2. https://www. SkyLightCal.com/CrimeWeekly - Get $30 off a 15-inch calendar! 3. https://www. EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping!4. https://www. Ollie.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY to get 60% off your Welcome Kit!5. https://www. TryFUM.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY to get a FREE gift with your journey pack!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  In the late 1990s, Peggy Klinky moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico, ready for a fresh start. She was building a new life and dreaming of medical school, but everything changed when she met a man named Patrick Kennedy. What began as a brief romance quickly spiraled into something much darker. Patrick isolated Peggy from her family, took control of her life, and then refused to let her go. As the abuse escalated into stalking, vandalism, and arson, Peggy did everything she could to get help: filing police reports, documenting the harassment, and preparing for trial. But no matter how many pleas she made, or how much evidence she brought forward, her concerns were minimized and dismissed.

• 0:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  And while Peggy was doing everything she could to protect herself, Patrick was planning something far more dangerous.

• 1:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 1:21Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 1:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, you are.

• 1:24Derrick Levasseur?

  And right now, if you're listening to this, I'm getting ready to go to Canada. And if you're watching this, I'm in a hospital bed right now.

• 1:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not as he speaks.

• 1:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe having some delicious frozen juice or something.

• 1:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Something... frozen juice?

• 1:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I don't know. They give you the cups with the straw?

• 1:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, yes, but it's not frozen. But what I'm gonna say right now is, have you ever noticed hospital ice is just unparalleled?

• 1:49Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, I'm gonna... I'll let you know. I'll let you know. I'm having a... As we speak, I'm getting ready for hernia surgery. We're recording this a little early because I'm going away to have this surgery done. I've mentioned it a couple of times on my lives. But yeah, so I'm in a bed right now, and you're probably sitting by the pool having a... Liquid IV pina colada or something?

• 2:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Who me? I'm doing that?

• 2:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, maybe. Y'all know you don't do no work.

• 2:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  These days, I have time for nothing.

• 2:15Derrick Levasseur?

  I see your Instagram posts. You're sitting there posing, looking out into the distance.

• 2:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  That was years ago.

• 2:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Look, I'm calling you out. You're smiling. You're blushing right now.

• 2:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  That was years ago, man.

• 2:26Derrick Levasseur?

  I gotcha.

• 2:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've had a young adult fiction book I've been trying to read for the better part of a year. So like, I'm waiting for one of those pool days. But yeah, Derek's gonna go and get some medical work done. Hopefully he survives. Fingers crossed.

• 2:40Derrick Levasseur?

  I'll be back, hopefully. If not?

• 2:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  If not, we will memorialize you in our, in our hearts and minds.

• 2:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Thank you.

• 2:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Crime Weekly is gonna have to find a new host.

• 2:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Woof.

• 2:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think that, I think Keith Morrison's available.

• 2:54Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, listen, I wouldn't be mad at that.

• 2:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know. I think that would be perfect. But anyways, we are diving into a new case today. As you could hear from the teaser, so we're gonna kind of just get into it. Uh, it's a very important case. We did, once again, work with family members to get this information. So, you know, as always, as with any case, try to be respectful in the comments.

• 3:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, these aren't fictional characters.

• 3:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  These are not fictional characters. They're real people. Their family members are still fighting for awareness and justice. And so they will probably be in the comment section.

• 3:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah, they'll be, they'll be monitoring it as they always do.

• 3:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Try not to be an asshole. That's all.

• 3:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think that's, I think that's a life, a goal for life. Try not to be an asshole.

• 3:37Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a good motto.

• 3:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's a bumper sticker. Alright, so Margaret Mary Klinky, who went by Peggy. Actually, my grandmother's name was Margaret and she also went by Peggy. So that kind of, it's super cute. But Margaret Klinky, she went by Peggy. She was born on December 2nd, 1970 in Youngstown, Ohio, to her parents, John, a banker, and Kathleen, a stay-at-home mom. She was the third of four children with two older sisters and a younger brother. Peggy's oldest sister, Debbie, who we worked with for this episode, told us their family was incredibly close. She described their upbringing as storybook, filled with love and lots of quality time together.

• 4:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  And honestly, that's great, um, to hear about that. You know, very few kids get storybook upbringings. I think it's, you know, every parent hopefully wants to give their child that, but. Life happens and things outside of your control happen, but for Peggy and her siblings, they had a really good childhood.

• 4:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, sometimes I feel like I get a guilty conscience when I'm like, yeah, pay, just go watch, read the iPad.

• 4:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know, me too.

• 4:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Feel horrible.

• 4:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know, I know, I know. Also, I just feel like iPads are terrible for, for kids.

• 4:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Not great.

• 4:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's this overstimulation thing.

• 4:53Derrick Levasseur?

  They are, they are convenient for the parents, I will say, but it is hard to, not get caught in that trap. There's many times where I'm like, hey, put it down, grab a book.

• 5:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then they look at you like, what's a book?

• 5:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, where are those?

• 5:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  What is a bu- read?

• 5:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Hmm.

• 5:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Outside of school?

• 5:07Derrick Levasseur?

  No, but nothing like starting off the episode making me feel guilty as a parent.

• 5:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  I heard, I felt, I said it because I feel guilty as a parent. I think every parent feels guilty, you know? I think I really, I, I'm gonna go ahead and say that. Way in in the comments, guys, as a parent, do you, even if you're doing your very best, do you still always feel guilty? I think that's just a part of the job description.

• 5:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Even if you don't, just say you do so we feel better about ourselves.

• 5:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Can you make us feel better about ourselves?

• 5:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, thank you.

• 5:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 5:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Thank you.

• 5:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Debbie said that her sister Peggy stood out among their siblings with her blonde hair and blue eyes, a striking contrast to the others who all had brown hair and brown eyes. Peggy was also the most outgoing of the group. She had the type of personality where people were naturally drawn to her. She was brilliant and determined, someone who always followed through on her goals. Peggy had a passion for fitness, especially dance. She danced all through grade school and high school, and when she attended Kent State University, she minored in dance and joined the university's dance troupe, performing with them for all four years. She graduated with a degree in marketing and later moved to Italy with a man she was dating who served in the military.

• 6:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  When they returned to the United States in the late 90s, they settled in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where he had been stationed, but the relationship didn't last, and after it ended, Peggy decided to stay. Albuquerque felt like a fresh start. It was the perfect place for Peggy because she loved being outdoors and the area offered plenty of opportunities to hike and stay active. Peggy had big plans for herself and Albuquerque gave her the space to focus on them. She decided to take additional college classes and began studying for the MCAT, hoping to go to medical school. While working on these goals, she met a man named Patrick Kennedy during a study group. And we're going to talk about Patrick in a second, but first I want to ask you, Derek, have you ever been to Albuquerque, New Mexico?

• 6:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I have not been to Albuquerque, but I will tell you, you hear about it all the time and I, I hear mixed reviews. Some people say it's a place you have to visit. Some people say, don't waste your time. What are your thoughts? Have you ever been there?

• 7:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've never been to New Mexico at all, right? The closest I've ever been to New Mexico is like Nevada and that's close, right? Like Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, they're all kind of in the same general area.

• 7:23Derrick Levasseur?

  One of my best friends was stationed there when he was in the military and he said there wasn't much out there, but again, he's on a military base and you know, a little different environment.

• 7:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Albuquerque, he was stationed there.

• 7:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 7:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  So there's a big military presence in Albuquerque.

• 7:35Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I believe so. I don't, are you asking me or telling me?

• 7:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think that because um, he was, so Peggy's boyfriend, the one she was in Italy with, he would end up being stationed in Albuquerque. That's how they ended up there. So it does seem like there's a big um, military presence there.

• 7:52Derrick Levasseur?

  It's just one of those places where unless you have to go there for a specific reason, it's not really on your way anywhere, if that makes sense. That's I guess where I would like summarize it where.

• 8:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's like desert mountains. It's pretty, but um, I'm not, you know, I'm not sure. It says, you know, they said that it gave Peggy the space to focus on these things. I'm like, yeah, there's a space there, right? You know, it's, it's very wide open, very flat. They have a downtown area, but outside of that, I mean, it's actually, it's actually the 32nd most populous city in the United States and the fourth largest in the Southwest.

• 8:26Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm looking on some, uh, I'm looking on the albuquerque.org, visit albuquerque.org website and it says they have like hot air balloons, golf courses, mountain biking, hikes, kayaking, like, you know, it looks beautiful. It looks beautiful. They, arts, culture, aerial adventures, casinos, nightlife, sports outdoors. Hey, listen, this is an ad for Albuquerque, New Mexico. Maybe we gotta go.

• 8:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I just look, when people are like, oh, I, I moved to, I went to a city and then I decided to stay there because I liked it so much. I expect it like, I don't like a desert environment. I don't like an arid environment.

• 8:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Dry?

• 8:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  I, yeah, I need, I need moisture, humidity, water.

• 9:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Me and you have been starting to talk about the idea. We've been throwing it around that maybe we're gonna do a tour, probably next year, not this year.

• 9:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep.

• 9:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe we add one of the stops to be in Albuquerque, New Mexico. That's a reason to go there. How about that?

• 9:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, I also have been planting seeds with, uh, in Florida.

• 9:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Because Florida is, yeah, Florida is an easy one. It's a gimme, but Albuquerque, New Mexico?

• 9:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Albuquerque will be our southwest location.

• 9:27Derrick Levasseur?

  There we go.

• 9:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so it actually looks cool. They got some really cool history and stuff there too, and like petroglyphs and stuff like that. So ancient Native American carvings. Okay, I will go. Let us know in the comments if you live in Albuquerque or you've spent a lot of time there. Would it be a place where you'd go and you'd be like, I can have a fresh start here? So Peggy met Patrick in Albuquerque and at that time Patrick was divorced and had a young daughter. And almost right away, he started taking Peggy out on dates. But Peggy honestly initially felt uncomfortable with the situation. She felt like everything seemed to be moving too fast. She was still new to Albuquerque and she'd been focused on building a new life. And at that time, her main priority was that, you know?

• 10:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was school, making sure her life was on track. And we all know that men can be distracting, very distracting, right?

• 10:17Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean.

• 10:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  So can women.

• 10:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Distracting you all the time, right?

• 10:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's true.

• 10:21Derrick Levasseur?

  It's tough. It's tough to record, I'm sure.

• 10:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, every time I have to put your, the, the video portion of you behind all my other windows.

• 10:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I get it.

• 10:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Otherwise I'm just like Derek.

• 10:30Derrick Levasseur?

  I wish, you know, I wish I could do something about it, but this is, this is my curse.

• 10:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, but, but seriously, relationships can be distracting, like especially when they're very intense and passionate at the beginning. And it's like, you're gonna spend all your time with that person and all the other stuff kind of falls to the wayside. And so Peggy's kind of thinking responsibly. She's like, hey, I want to be a doctor. Medical school is no easy feat, you know?

• 10:54Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, think about the fact that you're moving to a state you've never, you didn't, never been to before. That in and of itself is difficult, navigating the new terrain, learning the ins and outs. Where do you go for your groceries? All these different things. It's a, it's a lot of stimulation. And then to add into that, a new relationship, that's a lot.

• 11:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but I almost feel because it's a new city. You don't know anybody. You might feel lonely. And so you kind of want that, but at the same time, you don't want it to be as intense and constantly present as a new relationship is.

• 11:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, looking for companionship, but she was like, oh, wait, I'm looking for people to have like familiar faces in the area.

• 11:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, like somebody to get a drink with, someone to tell me about, you know, the, the local stuff, but not necessarily like somebody who's going to envelop my life.

• 11:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, exactly.

• 11:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  So a few weeks after Patrick and Peggy started dating, Peggy flew home to Ohio to spend Christmas with her family. Then on December 29th, something unexpected happened. Patrick actually showed up at Peggy's mother's house with a suitcase in hand. He said he had come to surprise Peggy for New Year's Eve. But Peggy did not like the surprise at all. In fact, she was completely shocked. Not only had she not discussed this with him, like, oh, maybe you can come visit. But she had no idea how Patrick had even figured out what her mom's address was. Like, they'd only been dating for a few weeks. And this was late 1990s, so the internet wasn't like it is now.

• 12:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's not like he could just hop online and look it up. It's very odd that not only did he show up without telling her, not only had they only been dating a few weeks, but he happened to know where her mother lived in Ohio.

• 12:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this, this is absurd. This is absurd.

• 12:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is absurd.

• 12:36Derrick Levasseur?

  This is absurd. Like, guys are reading it a couple of weeks and you're doing this. And I, with, you know, having the privilege of hearing the teaser, like everyone else did and knowing at least somewhat where the story is going. I would argue that this wasn't even for like, good reasons. It could have been something where Patrick was concerned that maybe she had an ex-boyfriend back home or someone that she was close with who was of the opposite sex and he was wanting to keep tabs on her. He didn't want to lose her when she goes home and maybe rekindle something with someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if that was in the back of his mind as well.

• 13:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but after only a few weeks.

• 13:10Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying. When we're talking about the teaser and what you've already conveyed to us.

• 13:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you got ownership like that over somebody after a few weeks where you're like, oh, she might talk to her ex-boyfriend like, ugh.

• 13:20Derrick Levasseur?

  If you're dealing with someone who's not in the right place to have a relationship, yeah, absolutely. They think different than most people.

• 13:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  You mean if you're dealing with a crazy person, you could say you're dealing with a crazy person, yeah.

• 13:30Derrick Levasseur?

  He's looking at it like this, she's mine.

• 13:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 13:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Even after a couple of weeks, he wants to keep tabs on her. How do you do that? You show up at her door.

• 13:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he's already starting to move fast and she's kind of like, hey, slow it down. So he's already probably feeling a little insecure. Like, why isn't she as into me as I am into her? Yeah. You're right. Something odd is here. I think it is more also, or not more, but also about like him making his presence known to her family.

• 13:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Hey, I'm the guy.

• 13:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. I'm her boyfriend. Or else, why would I be here?

• 13:59Derrick Levasseur?

  We're official.

• 14:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. So it's like forcing her to be in like a relationship with him before she was ready. Like, you don't.

• 14:07Derrick Levasseur?

  To have been there.

• 14:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, you don't shove yourself on somebody's family. You wait till they're ready to introduce you to their family. It's real crazy. Yeah. That, right there for me, I would have been like, oh, hey, Patrick, I'm calling the police. This is, this is, what did you call it?

• 14:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Absurd.

• 14:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Absurd. This is absurd. So, but this was the moment that everything seemed to shift. And looking back, this wasn't just a surprise visit. It was the beginning of Patrick stalking Peggy. So we're going to take a very quick break. Okay? And we'll be right back.

• 14:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  So obviously Patrick shows up to Peggy's mom's house and so Peggy's sister Debbie is also there, right? And Debbie told us that when Patrick showed up, she had a gut feeling that something didn't sit right. On the surface, he seemed fine. He was clean, well-dressed and polite. But the surprise visit rubbed her the wrong way. And then the red flags started piling up. Debbie noticed that Patrick seemed to be watching Peggy constantly, like his eyes always on her. He was also kind of controlling. He always had to be near her. He insisted on joining her wherever she went. He sat next to her at every meal and tagged along for shopping trips and joined her when she met up with her sisters for lunch.

• 15:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  He refused to leave Peggy alone. And yeah, this is red flag after red flag after red flag.

• 15:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it definitely sounds like he's keeping tabs on her.

• 15:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Peggy, Peggy's like, I'm gonna go get my nails done. And he's like, yeah, let me sit next to you for two and a half hours during the most boring time of your life. So I can just make it like, having to constantly be near her so he could hear what conversations she's having. So he can control the narrative. So she can't get away from him with her sisters when she's having lunch and be like, yo, isn't it crazy? This Patrick guy showed up? He's making sure that he's, he knows what's going on. He's not only controlling her, but he's kind of controlling everyone around her via Peggy.

• 16:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And I mean, for, for Debbie, knowing your sister as well as you do, right? You can pick up on the little things. She's been around her entire life. So I guarantee you, if Debbie was sitting right here with us right now talking, she probably saw it right in, in Peggy's face. As soon as he showed up like, oh, this isn't a face of like happiness and surprise. Like this is a face of like, oh my God, what's going on right now? Even though maybe Peggy covered it up to a certain degree.

• 16:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Probably tried to, yeah.

• 16:37Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm sure Debbie and others picked up on it.

• 16:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I have a sister that I'm very close to, and we non verbally communicate all the time. So family parties are always fun because somebody will say something and we'll both look at each other at the same time and we know exactly what we're thinking. And that's the bond that, that sisters have, especially when they grow up close. And you're exactly right. I'm sure that Debbie sensed in Peggy's body language, facial expressions, just in the way she probably greeted Patrick, that this was not expected. And yeah, Peggy's gonna sort of try to keep that on the, on the down low, under wraps, because she doesn't want her family to be like, wait, is there something wrong here? Is there something going on? Because she herself hadn't determined yet what was happening. Like, is this just an overzealous guy who is really into me? Or is this a dangerous person that I need

• 17:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  to be concerned about? Peggy didn't know at that point.

• 17:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, she's got to have, she doesn't really have time to talk to her sister either. He's everywhere.

• 17:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's everywhere.

• 17:31Derrick Levasseur?

  So she can't really pull him aside and be like, hey, is this for real?

• 17:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, she can't get an opinion. She can't get a, you know?

• 17:35Derrick Levasseur?

  She's got a gauge, but she doesn't have any definitive conclusions to be like, hey, buddy, get the, out of here, you know? She can't do it.

• 17:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  She doesn't have the voices of the people that she trusts and loves to tell her like, no, your, your instinct's right. This is weird.

• 17:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, there's boundaries too, right? Like, we've all had a sibling who's dated someone we didn't like. And, you know, you got, you gotta know your place. You wanna be happy for him, you wanna be cautious, but you also don't wanna overstep and cause issues between you and your sibling or your loved one. So, I get it. It's a tough dynamic to navigate.

• 18:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  You also don't wanna be the person that's like, "Yeah, he's a scumbag. Break up with him only for them to make up, and then your sister's mad at you, and she always knows that you hate him." Yeah, exactly.

• 18:12Derrick Levasseur?

  I definitely had at least one fistfight with one of my sister's ex-boyfriends.

• 18:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. It's like, you gotta be careful about that, though, because there's really no going back. And from then on...

• 18:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I knew he was a bad one. I mean, he went to jail, so...

• 18:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  But from then on, from that moment, when you make your opinion known, he knows you hate him.

• 18:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, he definitely knew I hated him. But more, but what I was more concerned about is, I don't wanna say names, but my sister was a little upset with me at first. Now...

• 18:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Of course, that's gonna happen, yeah.

• 18:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Now she's like, "Oh, my god, you were so right." But, at the time, she needed me to beat him up first, you know?

• 18:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. But if this is a person who is trying to abuse your sister by isolating her from your fam, from her family members, her being mad at you is gonna make that that much easier for him to do, right? So that's the, that's the fear in it.

• 18:57Derrick Levasseur?

  So, and you'll appreciate this story, and I'll make it quick, it's not about me, but this particular person, um, was being aggressive with my sister in front of my mom.

• 19:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh.

• 19:07Derrick Levasseur?

  And then my mom stepped in a little bit and said something, and he basically like clapped his fists together in my mom's face.

• 19:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, no.

• 19:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I showed up in the driveway, and we'll just say there was no conversations between him and I. We'll just say that.

• 19:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Do you have this on video?

• 19:24Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't. And that's probably a good thing. It was many years ago, but let's just say, uh, the only word was, "What are you gonna do?" And that was the last thing he heard.

• 19:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Can we reenact this at some point? I just wanna see what it looked like.

• 19:36Derrick Levasseur?

  You can ask my mom about it next time you see her. She'll tell ya, cuz I pulled up in the car and she knew what was...

• 19:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Did she call you, and was she like, "This dude just clapped his fist in front of my face, and you were like, 'Say less.'"

• 19:47Derrick Levasseur?

  I was around the corner.

• 19:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 19:48Derrick Levasseur?

  And, and at the time, my sister was a little upset with me, but, you know, overall, big brother was right.

• 19:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Big brother and head of household.

• 20:01Derrick Levasseur?

  You guys get that joke. Maybe you do, maybe you don't.

• 20:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  So after that visit, Peggy and Patrick did continue to date, but as time went on, Debbie's concern deepened and she obviously began to fear for Peggy's safety and for her own, as well as her daughters. She and her sister Marilyn started having conversations with Peggy about the relationship and what healthy love really looked like. You know, basically little interventions, just trying to plant some seeds. And Debbie thinks that Peggy probably wanted to believe things were normal and that she could make the relationship work. But over time, Debbie said she watched Peggy come to terms with the truth, that the relationship would never be normal. Eventually Peggy moved in with Patrick and over the next three years, the emotional abuse escalated. Patrick would call Peggy names and tear

• 20:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  her down emotionally. And then, once she was low, he'd flip the script. He'd apologize, buy her something. He'd act incredibly kind, playing the hero after he'd been the villain. It is a textbook example of the cycle of abuse. In fact, I just, I just saw this great interview a few weeks ago, and it was with a guy who's in prison because he repeatedly found himself in domestic abuse issues repeatedly. And he was married to a woman for like 15 years. And he was being interviewed by a psychologist and the psychologist said, you know, we talked to your wife and she said, hey, things weren't always bad with him. You know, they, they were really good sometimes. And he looked at the interviewer, like the

• 21:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  interviewer was dumb. And he was like, of course, of course, if it was bad all the time, she would have left me the first week. He said, he said, of course. And then he said, I'm trying to think of his exact words, but he said, of course, you've got to, you know, you got to push it as far as you can. And then you got to know when to pull back and to be sweet and to be kind. Because if it was just, if you were just abusing them 24/7. Which you want to. He said you want to abuse them 24/7, but if you were doing that, then you would lose them. So this makes it so that you can just keep this like, okay, I'm gonna break you down only to build you back up.

• 22:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, like the yo-yo effect.

• 22:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'm gonna throw you against the wall, shatter you, and then I'm gonna put your pieces back together. And then I'm gonna be the person that that helped you when you were sad and down and distraught, even though I was the one that made you sad and down and distraught. And it's very, uh, it's a, it's a, it's a my, I wanted to say a word, but it's a, it's a mind F. Can I swear? Mindfuck. It's a mindfuck.

• 22:28Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go.

• 22:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so you completely don't know which way is up anymore. And you start to wonder like, is it me? Am I wrong? Cause he's super nice. Everybody sees he's nice. He does such nice things for me, but then he's not nice a lot of the time. So is it me? Is it the reason he's, is he just a nice guy? And I'm bringing out this not nice guy in him? And it really is incredibly detrimental to not only your emotional health, but just your mental state.

• 22:54Derrick Levasseur?

  And I, I think it's important point to make because we're talking about the bad stuff. That was, you know, in hindsight, you go, that was a huge red flag. But as you're kind of alluding to here, I'm sure there were a lot of moments where Patrick was wooing Peggy and kind of won her over because based on the story we just told you, and then the next paragraph, it's,

• 23:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're still dating, yeah.

• 23:12Derrick Levasseur?

  With him for three years.

• 23:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 23:13Derrick Levasseur?

  There's a lot of stuff in between there that was probably really good.

• 23:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 23:16Derrick Levasseur?

  And so it was, she was, like you just said, it was mixing the good with the bad. And I guess at that point Peggy felt like the, the, the good outweighed the bad and she took a chance, but it maybe thought it would get better and clearly it didn't.

• 23:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or you, you say like, hey, if I'm really good and I always do the right thing, and there's just some bad times, I can get through and grit my teeth

• 23:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 23:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  through the, the, you know, random bad times because the rest of the times are so good. And you get hooked on this like cycle of highs and lows. It's very like dopamine-esque, like gambling almost. You kind of wake up and you're like, what's gonna happen? Like pull the slot machine? What's gonna happen today? Am I gonna get Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde? And you're just hoping you get the good version because the good version is the best thing you've ever seen. And it makes you feel so good and you feel so loved and so happy. But then you get the bad version and you just say, okay, I gotta get through the bad, this bad time so I can get back to that good time so I can feel whole and good and happy and healthy again. And it's really, it's just a, an addiction cycle in your brain.

• 24:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, not a good place to be in, but it's unfortunately not the first time we've heard a similar story like this.

• 24:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  So common, so common. So at the time Debbie and her family obviously didn't realize what was happening. To them, domestic violence meant physical abuse, right? Someone hitting their partner, someone with visible bruises. And because they never saw any, you know, any injuries, at least physically on Peggy, they didn't think to call it abuse. But today, they understand that what Peggy was experiencing was domestic violence and now they know that there were resources out there that could have helped her. And hopefully, hearing Peggy's story helps somebody else. So at one point, after about a year and a half of dating, Peggy tried to leave the relationship. She called her sister Marilyn and said she couldn't stay with Patrick any longer.

• 25:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  She said she was going to get on a plane and join Marilyn on her vacation in Las Vegas. But later that day Peggy called again and this time she said she felt sick to her stomach and couldn't get on the plane. She was too scared to leave Patrick. Oh, I know exactly what, what this is and you know, it's like, it's far too common. We see this so much, but this is like codependency that is brought on by this addictive cycle that the other person puts you in. And it's really hard to, to hear it and see it and to know the torture, the internal torture that she was going through.

• 25:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they, these, these characters, they have an ability to manipulate you and, and coerce you into certain things to the point where after a while, even when they're not around, they still have control.

• 25:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it is, it's, it's coercive control and I'm so glad that now US lawmakers are recognizing coercive control as a, an arm of domestic abuse and they're, they're enacting laws. Yeah, they're enacting laws to protect people from it. So it's finally coming to a place where. You know, we know something's being done at least and people recognize it and people know what it is and it's not just hidden anymore.

• 26:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 26:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not long after that Peggy brought Patrick and his daughter on an upcoming family vacation to North Carolina, hoping it would make things better. Debbie said that when everyone arrived, Patrick tried to put on a show to make himself and the relationship look as perfect as possible. That's what they always do, but it didn't work. Patrick just sulked through the entire vacation and kept a constant eye on Peggy. For seven straight days, he refused to let her out of his sight, making sure she was never alone. And by the time the trip ended, Debbie's bad feeling about Patrick had only gotten worse. Peggy and Patrick continued to date and the red flags kept piling up. At one point Peggy came across a wedding invitation between Patrick and a woman named

• 26:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Margaret Mary, which is Peggy's full name. So naturally she was immediately confused. Like, who is this? Who is this wedding for? Is this our wedding? Was I not invited? Is, what the hell is going on? It reminds me of that, um, that scene in How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days when Kate Hudson's character makes like a memory book and she, she like meshes her face and Matthew McConaughey's face together to see what their children would look like.

• 27:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Like a baby?

• 27:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and then she like photoshops pictures of her and Matthew McConaughey in with their fake children and then he finds it and she's intentionally trying to scare him off and he's intentionally trying to show his friends that he can like stay in a committed relationship and they're both miserable.

• 27:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Shout out Princess Sophia, if you know, you know. If you know, you know.

• 27:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  I do know. You killed our love cactus.

• 27:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Great movie.

• 27:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  But yeah, but this is, it reminds me of that, like you, you encounter, you would come across something like this and it just seems absolutely bananas. And so Peggy started to wonder if Patrick was planning to marry her without telling her. It's like he hadn't proposed. Usually the, that, the proposal comes first, right? And then maybe you'd pick out the wedding invitations together.

• 28:16Derrick Levasseur?

  I know we live in a different world now, but even back then, usually with the woman kind of have the creative freedom with that.

• 28:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, either, you know, help, help her do it and like give her your opinion, but you know, maybe that's her, yeah, figure out together what month?

• 28:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Minimum, let her know a date.

• 28:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that's it, that's it. So she's like, is Patrick trying to marry me without telling me? And obviously that thought and this weird wedding invitation completely creeped her out, which is a feeling you should never have to experience during a relationship. Like she was very unsettled by this. And later Peggy learned that the invitation wasn't meant for her at all. Get this, Patrick had actually been married twice. Before the wife he had a daughter with, he was married to a woman named Margaret Mary. Peggy's exact same name. And Peggy knew nothing about it. And this kind of reminds me of when we were talking about Lana Turner and how every time Lana Turner got married, and then she, she found out that her husbands were lying to her about everything.

• 29:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  And most of them had been married several times before and they just didn't tell her. It's a very huge sense of betrayal when you're with someone who's not being honest about their past. That should be something that you know and make the decision on whether or not you're okay with it before moving forward in a relationship with them.

• 29:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I, I think we draw the line at if you were previously married to someone, that should be disclosed when you're living with someone.

• 29:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he told her he was married before to one person.

• 29:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Just omitted the, the first marriage. Yeah, no, that's a problem. That's a major issue. Why? And then the question becomes, why, why are you omitting that one and not the other one? What happened?

• 29:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  What happened?

• 29:50Derrick Levasseur?

  What don't you want me to know? Where's Margaret now?

• 29:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the marriage between Margaret Mary one and Patrick, it didn't last long. And Peggy never found out the full story of why it ended. But her family later learned that it ended after Margaret's mother showed up at the couple's house in the middle of the night and removed her daughter. She told Patrick that he would never see Margaret again and that she would take care of the divorce herself. So obviously we now know why Patrick didn't tell Peggy the full story about it.

• 30:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. And, and, and why would Margaret go with her mom and not come back on her own later? There's a story there. Something was going on. If mom had to step in like that, it got to a boiling point.

• 30:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I'm sure Patrick didn't leave Margaret alone and he followed her everywhere. So she could never say, hey, I need help, you know, from someone.

• 30:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 30:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, and honestly, what it would do if Patrick had told Peggy about Margaret Mary.

• 30:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  It would illustrate a pattern, right? If he had told her the truth about what happened, then Peggy might be thinking, hey, well, is what what happened to his first wife happening to me? Is he, if he's capable of doing it to her, is he able of doing it to me? It shows a pattern. He didn't want her to know about that side of him until it was too late.

• 31:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, he was definitely not disclosing that intentionally.

• 31:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Peggy's family still doesn't know exactly what happened in that marriage to make the mother show up like that, but I think we can all agree it must have been pretty serious and probably something where Margaret was unable to leave on of her own free will.

• 31:21Derrick Levasseur?

  I know I say the phrase all the time and I didn't even come up with it. I heard it from Dr. Chris Mohandi, shout out to him. What am I gonna say? When it comes to these cases.

• 31:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Past, past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.

• 31:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Pretty close, pretty close. Best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. So when you're thinking about, a tiger doesn't change his stripes, right? Zebra doesn't change his stripes. Go with whatever option you want to go with. They've done it before, they'll do it again. I say it all the time. And so he's not disclosing this information to Margaret number two, because he knows as smart as she is, he starts saying some things and she looks into it and realizes that he's done stuff like this in the past, which he's now currently doing to her to a lesser degree, at least at this point. She's gotta get out of there because he's not gonna change. So she, he doesn't want her to know.

• 32:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he doesn't want her to know. Understandable from his perspective.

• 32:12Derrick Levasseur?

  His perspective, yeah.

• 32:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  But it seemed like Peggy kind of found herself in this like serious, committed relationship where she's living with somebody and she didn't even really want that.

• 32:21Derrick Levasseur?

  She doesn't really know who this guy is.

• 32:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it kind of feels like this thing where it's like, oh, I'm not really looking for anything serious. And suddenly she's living with him, he's following her everywhere. And there was probably a point where she was like, how did we get here?

• 32:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Love bombs her, wedges himself into her life, integrates himself with her family members and friends and now he's just there. And I think it was just this organic thing where she's like, well, he's always around anyways, I do like him and sure, this is like a natural progression, but there was nothing natural about it at all. He forced his way in.

• 32:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, yes. It's kind of, yeah, it's kind of like Johnny Stompanato showing up and saying, I'm going to Acapulco with you and we're gonna stay there for three months.

• 32:59Derrick Levasseur?

  There are definitely some similarities there for sure. I was already thinking about that. I'm like two weeks, two episode cases back to back where you have these, this weird dynamic.

• 33:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, it's unfortunately not that weird. It's pretty common. And I think with Lana Turner and Johnny Stompanato, it like happened so long ago, people didn't talk about it then because they were embarrassed. But now, we hear from women and we see in these true crime cases, this is an MO. And it's like these, these guys read out of the same frickin playbook. All right, we're gonna take a quick break, we'll be right back. Okay, so in November of 2001, one of Peggy's close friends was getting married in Cleveland, Ohio, and Peggy was part of the wedding party and her whole family was attending. But Patrick wasn't invited. So Peggy booked a solo flight and made plans to stay at a hotel with the rest of the family.

• 33:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  But Patrick was probably pissed off, just like Johnny Stompanato was when he couldn't go to the Academy Awards. He's pissed off that he's not invited. And he obviously could not let Peggy have a moment alone. So at this point, he also had access to all of Peggy's credit card information. So what did he do? He canceled her flights. Then he booked a new one that included a ticket for himself. He also canceled her hotel reservation and made a new one at a different hotel, just for the two of them. This, this dude, what, what did you call it again? This is-

• 34:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Absurd.

• 34:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Absurd. He is operating on a whole new level. That's crazy. And Debbie obviously believes that this was Patrick's way of cutting Peggy off from the people who loved her, and it 100% was. She thinks that Patrick knew exactly how Debbie felt about him. I'm sure he sensed it. And he didn't want Peggy to be alone with her family, where they could potentially share their feelings about how they don't really like her boyfriend and how he's kind of a creepy creep. Debbie shared that once they were all at the wedding, Peggy was so isolated, she didn't even sit at the family's table. It was like Peggy had her hands tied. She couldn't do anything. Then in early 2002, Peggy finally decided she'd had enough. She was done.

• 35:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  She walked out of the home she and Patrick shared with nothing but the clothes on her back and a few essentials. She left behind nearly everything: family, gifts, photos, furniture, and personal keepsakes from her time in Italy. And yeah, you will eventually feel that way. You know, eventually you're like, okay- We're gonna separate and we're gonna talk about it and I'll tell him I don't want to be with him and he'll understand and then we'll we'll separate our stuff and we'll figure out what we brought in. And then you realize that the other person's just using that process to further like the time you're together and he he's making it last longer and it never is the right time to do it. It's never the right time to have the conversation. So eventually you're like, I don't care.

• 35:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  I will leave everything, everything, dogs, pets, clothes, important things. I will leave everything behind as long as I escape with my life at this point.

• 36:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it definitely gives us some insight into Peggy's thought process at that time. Clearly due to the sense of urgency and the willingness to leave everything behind, as you just said. It lets us all know, you don't have to read between the lines, that she was in fear of something and she didn't feel that she had the ability to stay behind, have a reasonable conversation and amicably separate. She knew that the only way to get out was to go as fast as possible. So that tells you what what she was thinking at the time and how she perceived, at this point at least, Patrick, there was definitely a power imbalance there. She was in fear of him. And she, even though she probably valued these possessions, as you just said, her life was more important.

• 36:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think she also knew, I can't have a conversation with him about this. She had a self-awareness enough to know, like, if I try to have a conversation about this with him, he's going to manipulate me.

• 36:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 36:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  And and even if I don't, even if I go in knowing that, it's still going to happen. And I'm gonna find myself here again, stuck in this cycle. She knew that intuitively. She was like, I know he's bad. I know I want to get away with him, but if I talk to him about it, I will end up staying and I don't even know why I will.

• 37:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, a great point. And I would say to even add on to that, this just tells us that this wasn't the first time because what you just said is exactly right. She probably did try the other route at first, talk to him. Figure out how to separate and go our separate ways and he would always manipulate the situation, maybe threaten her. So this was a last resort, right?

• 37:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or tell her like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. You feel that way about me. I'm going to get better. I'll go to therapy. Let's go to therapy.

• 37:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Whatever it is, whatever it is. This isn't the first time where she just up out of nowhere decided, I gotta go. She probably tried other routes and this was an evolution of this, of this relationship where the other ways didn't work and this was a last resort.

• 37:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. She tried talking it out and her, her conversations fell on deaf ears because he was not listening to understand. He was listening to respond and his response was going to be anything that confused her enough to keep her there for another day, another week. So he could continue the cycle.

• 38:04Derrick Levasseur?

  It might not have been confusion. It might've been straight up threats. We don't know. We weren't, we weren't in those, behind those walls, but it could have been bad.

• 38:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  So an hour after she left, Patrick called and claimed someone had broken into the house and barricaded the door. He said he was terrified to be there alone and begged her to come back. And when Peggy reluctantly returned, she found a police officer at the house. The police officer's trying to figure out what had happened and who might have barricaded the door. And toward the end of their conversation, the officer asked if Peggy wanted to tell him anything else. She told him no, after Patrick gave her a threatening look. As soon as the officer left, Peggy got into her car and drove away, never looking back. And so this is something else that these manipulators will do. When you are able to get out of their sight, for whatever reason, they will text you with some emergency situation, right?

• 38:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Something that they need you for, like it's life or death. Okay. They're going to take their own lives or there's a fire started or you know, one of the kids is sick, anything to get you back in their presence because they know that when you're there directly in front of them, they feel better, they're more regulated and then they can focus once again on pulling you back into that cycle. But without you there, they're dysregulated. So they need to do anything they can to get you back in. It's usually going to be something crazy. He's like, somebody broke in and barricaded the door.

• 39:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 39:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's so stupid.

• 39:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Not buying it.

• 39:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Peggy did leave again, thank God. But Patrick wasn't about to give up. He called Peggy's cellphone constantly, leaving message after message, even though she never answered. He told her he loved her, that he wanted her back, and he even used his daughter as a manipulation tactic. And Peggy didn't just hear from Patrick. One day, she received a voicemail from his mother. Patrick had told his mother that Peggy was the one who had ended things, and his mother left a message saying Peggy needed to leave town because she would come over and, quote, "take care of her," unquote, "herself." So the mom's threatening Peggy now, like, "Oh, you better get out of town because you broke my little boy's heart, and I'm going to come over and take care of you myself."

• 40:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

• 40:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right, right. And Patrick also began physically following Peggy. He knew everything about her, her routines, her schedules, where she liked to go. And because he ran a landscaping business and worked for himself, he had the freedom to follow her whenever he wanted. He'd show up at her work, at her appointments, anywhere he knew she'd be, he was there. And Patrick's behavior escalated over time. Peggy's family wanted to get her help, but at that time, stalking wasn't widely recognized as its own issue, and there weren't support services specifically for stalking. Shelters and women's centers focused on domestic violence, sexual assault, or crisis support, but Peggy didn't seem to fit neatly into any of those

• 40:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  boxes. So they didn't know who to turn to. As the stalking continued, Peggy started to change. And Debbie described it like watching a candle slowly burn out. Peggy didn't smile as much. She didn't laugh the way she used to. She had a darker outlook on life, one that felt so different from who she was before Patrick. Her sparkle was dimmed. She was constantly looking over her shoulder, worried about what would happen next. And tragically, that feeling would only grow stronger as time went on. And once again, this is another tactic, and that's why he kept calling, and that's why he kept showing up. Because he knew if she could get out from under his thumb and regain her old life and get close to her old friends and her family, that she would mentally know, "I'll be fine." But if he

• 41:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  could keep her stressed, keep her anxious, keep her always wondering... Of course, mentally, nobody can take that, the constant fear that every time you turn around the corner, this guy's gonna be there. You're so focused on that, you're so scared and stressed out about that, that you do fall into a depression. You start to feel like, what, what is this? Like, why, I don't feel like my old self, there's just a darkness always over you, there's somebody always looming over you, and you're constantly going over your shoulder, and you don't know what's gonna happen next, you're always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And that was intentionally done.

• 42:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh yeah, takes time, but when, like you said, separated from the family enough, they become conditioned. It's unfortunate, but it's, it's, these abusers, whether it's verbal, physical, or both, they, they may not intentionally even have their means of doing it, but it's just who they are. And over time, they start to chip away at the person they're with, and they, they kind of mold them into what they want them to be, unfortunately.

• 42:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  As the stalking continued, Peggy met a man named Mark through her job in pharmaceutical sales, and from the very beginning, she was honest with him. She told him that she had a stalker. And Mark initially brushed it off, telling her not to worry, he reassured her that he could handle it. But it didn't take long for Patrick to turn his attention towards Mark. I'm not surprised. As soon as Patrick knew who Mark was, I'm sure Mark was, you know, in the crosshairs. And somehow, Patrick had ahold of Mark's phone number, and began calling him and leaving threatening messages. He told Mark to stay away from his girlfriend, saying that Peggy was mine, and he even threatened to kill him. It was terrifying, and it would only get worse.

• 43:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  In the following months, Patrick found out that Peggy's brother had gotten engaged, and so he left a voicemail on the brother's phone, saying he wished he could be a part of the family and attend the wedding, but things didn't work out with Peggy. You know? So he's like, oh man, I wish I could be there, like if your sister wasn't being so difficult, and I'd be part of your family. Is this guy, like, not self-aware enough to know that none of these people actually like him?

• 43:36Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't think he is. I really don't. And that, that's something we've all seen, right? Like, it has... Again, these abusers, they don't even realize what they're doing. In their mind, they're the victim, or they're the one in the right, and everyone else is crazy.

• 43:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, and don't, I, I, I hope that nobody feels bad for these people when Derek says that, because it's absolutely true. Like, they don't think they're doing anything wrong, necessarily. They, and if they do know that they're kind of pushing the li, the limits, or like, crossing lines, it's justified to them because they've been betrayed and they've been treated badly. And so whatever they do in retaliation, you deserved it. You asked for it. They, they are not sitting here like, "I'm a monster," and being gleeful about it. It's, it's worse than that. They genuinely think they're good people. They genuinely think that what they're doing is justified and right.

• 44:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Some of them may realize it behind closed doors when they look in the mirror, like, okay, maybe I'm, maybe I'm not doing the right thing here. But yeah, I think a lot of them, the best liars, right, are the ones that believe their own bullshit. And, and it might not be something they verbally said, but just the way they conduct themselves and the way they perceive the people around them. They're looking at it like, they're the person who's in the right, and they're the one that's got their shit together, and everybody else is crazy. That's why they were able to do it for so long, because they actually believe the world they're living in.

• 44:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, they have to, right? Or, or their entire identity would shatter. And I, I've used this example with Chris Watts before. What Chris Watts did to his wife and his daughters, and then he's in prison, like, "Oh, it, it was actually Nicole. She's the harlot that dragged me away from my family, and actually, my wife was controlling and horrible." It's like, everybody else's fault, except for him. But he has to believe that, and he's not lying. He genuinely believes that. He has to, in order to wake up every day and look at himself in the mirror. He has to, or he would have a mental break. And, and his brain is instinctively protecting him from that by... By basically fracturing in two. There's the truth that he keeps hidden in a little box.

• 45:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then there's the fantasy and the delusion that he's created. And that's the only place he's comfortable living. And that's what's happening here with this dude. Then in June, Peggy and Mark traveled to Orlando for the wedding, because Mark's Peggy's boyfriend now. And they were there along with Peggy's family. And while they were in Florida, Patrick flew to Ohio and spray painted the words, "PK is a whore", across the garage doors of Peggy's mother's house. Oh, damn. Not surprised, not surprised. Not like this is expected.

• 46:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, so the, so the, the amount of pressure is going to be escalated.

• 46:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  And the temper tantrums, the temper tantrums are going to escalate. Yeah.

• 46:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, the subtle, you know, just love bombing, whatever, passively, you know, forcing her, coercing her to do certain things to, okay, that's not working anymore. Now I'm going to use the threat of physical violence or I'm actually going to commit a crime.

• 46:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Public humiliation, yeah.

• 46:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Showing his, showing his true colors now. He's like, hey, you know what? F it, let's just go all in.

• 46:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I've said this before, but these kinds of people, they just want attention from their target. They don't care if it's positive attention or negative attention. They are so emotionally infantile that like a baby, they will squeeze their fists and scream at the top of their lungs to get attention. And they don't care whether you're paying attention to them because they're doing a good thing or a bad thing. So just two days later, Mark heard from his mother, the police and the fire department, who all said his house in Albuquerque had caught fire after someone had opened a gas line, causing $35,000 in damage. The fire was eventually ruled arson, since there was no way the gas line could have come loose on its own. And to Mark, Peggy and her entire family, there was no doubt about who was responsible.

• 47:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  It had to be Patrick. So now we have Mark. He's away with, with, you know, his new girlfriend in Florida and his house catches on fire. And obviously, yes, this is Patrick doing this. It's not just a random set of coincidences or a series of unfortunate events. It's Patrick. And it, and once again, like we said, things are escalating. He's going from, you know, defacing homes to setting homes on fire. It's not good, but it's, it's going to get worse. So we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

• 48:02Derrick Levasseur?

  We're back from break and I just wanted to elaborate on something you were saying before the break because you know it does it seems like a pattern here where it started off where he was displaying the emotion the behavior of I want you and now it's transitioned to if I can't have you, nobody can. And I feel like we've seen this before. This is a common pattern where they try everything they can to make it at least appear that this is about their love and care for you. And when that's not working, it transitions to something else, something much more sinister. And again, I feel like I've said this story multiple times in different cases that I've covered that we've covered and it's kind of like this similar story that they all follow.

• 48:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, I'm really glad that we're talking about this because I think little things like this and then they start getting more intense and then they start rising in frequency. It's important if somebody's in a relationship like that, that they can see it so they can see commonalities and what they're going through.

• 48:58Derrick Levasseur?

  And that's really what this is about, right? Crime Weekly, not to kind of get off the story here. We covered these cases because it's important for you guys to hear about them because I guarantee you, there are people out there who are listening or watching this who may be unfortunately going through something similar, hopefully in the early stages. And there's no doubt in my mind that by listening to these episodes, whether it's here or on another podcast, you can learn from it, right? There's, there's information to be obtained that can help you in your own personal life. It's not just to hear these stories while you're driving to work, it's to educate and inform so that you can hear what the signs were and what ultimately happened based on the decisions that were made. And you may choose a different path going forward. So there's no doubt in my mind, if we had a small anonymous group-

• 49:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  You need to choose a different path going forward.

• 49:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely. But there's no doubt if we had this anonymous group and people were could just be confidential or some people would want to be public, but I guarantee you some of these stories Everyone's listened to over the years has helped them in their own life. It's influenced them to make a different decision. So

• 50:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know for a fact they have. We've had people tell us that like,

• 50:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 50:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, because of, because of this episode, like I see now what I'm living with and I couldn't put a name to it or my finger on it before, but now I, and it's so valuable. And I mean, obviously that's what Peggy's family wants to.

• 50:17Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what they want. A hundred percent. They want this tragedy to be something that can prevent it from happening from someone else. And that's so admirable and respectable and we're glad to be working with people like that.

• 50:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, yes, we are. So we got Peggy's new boyfriend's house on fire, right? And Peggy had tried to explain to the authorities that this wasn't just an isolated fire. She told investigators that this was part of a larger pattern of stalking and harassment. And she pointed to specific evidence like footprints left in the mud, which she believed matched Patrick's gait. She even told them the prints could be compared to a pair of work boots she had once given Patrick as a gift. But even with all of that, Peggy's input was dismissed. Detectives treated the arson like a one-time event instead of seeing it as part of a dangerous, ongoing pattern.

• 51:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  No charges were ever filed against Patrick, not for the fire and not for the vandalism at Peggy's mom's house.

• 51:13Derrick Levasseur?

  This is a problem too, by the way, because even though you can make the argument that because it was in the nineties, stalking wasn't really a thing yet. And law enforcement wasn't taking police reports for that. This wasn't arson and that was a thing in the 1990s. So part of our job, in case anybody didn't know this, as being a detective would be to work with the fire department and to investigate the crime and figure out who started the fire. So regardless of whether you believe this woman was being harassed or stalked and you took anything serious about that, if she's giving you information that may lead to the culprit, the person who did it, you should be following up on that. So this is a big, this is a big mess up right here.

• 51:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Another issue too, I think, is that this is happening over multiple states. So the vandalism of Peggy's mom's house happens in Ohio. Mark's house fire happens in New Mexico. So obviously this isn't like an FBI thing.

• 52:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Not an FBI thing. It's a low, it's local law enforcement.

• 52:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Local law enforcement, but the local law enforcement in Ohio and New Mexico aren't be like, let's work together to get this weird guy, you know?

• 52:14Derrick Levasseur?

  But Stephanie, they don't even have to. That's what I'm trying to say. Like it's an arson in New Mexico. You have a police department there. You have a crime that occurred. Who gives a shit what happened in another state? You have to figure out what happened here. Somebody could have died. So the fact that they didn't follow up and interview Patrick for this crime, not saying anything else, just for this crime regarding the boots and anything else that they could obtain through a search warrant, that is a problem.

• 52:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, honestly, they probably just didn't care that much.

• 52:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that's, that's even bigger issue.

• 52:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Property damage, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

• 52:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Somebody could have died. I don't know how big the fire was, but it could have been a lot worse.

• 52:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and you don't know, did, did Mark have animals? Like dogs or something?

• 52:51Derrick Levasseur?

  It could have been a lot worse.

• 52:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 52:52Derrick Levasseur?

  We've had multiple incidents where we had a homeless person who was lighting mattresses on fire and outside of houses. And most of the time it was caught right away. But one of the houses, the whole, the whole entire thing went up in flames.

• 53:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, well, obviously, fire is nothing to mess with. It's very serious. But I mean, what I'm saying is clearly these cops in Albuquerque were like, whatever.

• 53:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they phoned it in. They phoned it in.

• 53:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  They phoned it in. So as Patrick's behavior escalated, Mark and Peggy and her family in Ohio became even more vigilant. They knew Patrick had access to personal information and they knew that he knew exactly where they all lived. So they had to start locking every door and window. They installed caller ID on their landlines and they kept deleted logs of phone calls and voicemails. They were very cautious about what they said over the phone or in emails and they tried to avoid any personal conversations unless they were speaking to Peggy in person because they didn't know what Patrick was monitoring. And Patrick was probably in his glory, knowing that he's pulling all these strings and treating all these people like puppets, just keeping them in such a constant state of fear and hyper vigilance.

• 53:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it's got, and it gave him such a thrill of power and control, which is exactly what men like Patrick enjoy the most. So to know that he's causing disruption and dysfunction to Peggy's life, it's like, yeah, you can get away from me, but you won't be happy. You'd be happy if I left you the hell alone, but I'm not going to leave you alone long enough to realize that you're happier without me than you were with me. And, and that is another thing in these, these situations. Sometimes it feels like. It would be easier to go back to that person because then the harassment and the stalking and the constant meddling with like your bank accounts and your email accounts, all of that would stop and you could just breathe for a second. And that's why a lot of people return. Debbie told us about the additional steps she had to take to protect her own daughters.

• 54:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  She felt it was necessary to warn them directly about Patrick. She told them, quote, "If you see him, you need to come to me immediately. Don't get in a car with him. Absolutely nothing. You need to get in the house or find me wherever I am," end quote. She worried that he might try to lure them away with something innocent like saying he was taking them to get ice cream with Peggy. She couldn't shake the fear that such a moment would turn into something tragic and that her children could end up in the same kind of danger that had already stolen Peggy's sense of safety. It was a terrifying time for everyone. Patrick's stalking didn't just impact Peggy, it impacted everyone around her. The stalking continued and one day, Patrick hid in the bushes outside Peggy's work and when she arrived, he jumped out

• 55:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  holding flowers and a wedding ring. He told her that he loved her and wanted to marry her, but Peggy ignored him and walked right past him. This rejection sent Patrick into a rage and he decided to take things even further. He made a flyer that featured Peggy's photo and at the top it said, "Have you seen me? Am I cute? Would you like to date me?" The flyer included a series of lies and insults about how Peggy was a slut and a whore. It said she had cheated on her partners and would cheat on anyone who dated her. It claimed she had two abortions, that she had herpes, and that she, quote, "wanted to share them." And it was all written in the first person as if Peggy had said it herself. And this once again is pretty common. We're not in the 90s anymore, so a lot of, a lot of these

• 56:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  men will like set their ex-partners up on dating apps, for instance, and put their picture and put their name and their phone number and everything and their email address so that all of a sudden, the woman's being in on dated. With all of these messages from guys on a dating app she didn't even know she was on. And the dating app profile will say things about her like, oh, she's down for anything. You know, she likes freaky stuff, all this stuff, so that she's just being like inundated with a bunch of perverts. So it's just the newer, modern way of doing things. But apparently Patrick figured out how to do this in the 90s. And Patrick even put Peggy's phone number on the flyers. And then he plastered them all over Albuquerque, including in places he knew Peggy would see them, like her salon and job.

• 56:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  So after the flyer incident, Peggy and Mark brought one of the flyers to the police department and told the officers about everything Patrick had been doing. The flyers, the phone calls, the following, all of it. And they were hoping that someone would take it seriously. But when they explained the situation, the police told them that the flyer was just a piece of paper and said there was nothing they could do to help. But here's the thing, that wasn't true. Stalking was a crime at the time. New Mexico had enacted a stalking law back in 1997, years before Patrick started harassing Peggy, which meant law enforcement absolutely could have stepped in and charged him, but they didn't. And I can't tell you why. I mean, maybe because it was new, maybe because they weren't taking it seriously.

• 57:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe because the police officers were men and they were like, oh, this guy just, you know, his heart's broken. He wants you back.

• 57:46Derrick Levasseur?

  I think that at that time, and this isn't a justification, you guys know where I stand on this. I think at that time, it's exactly what you're saying, where it's like, oh, these are two people. It's a civil dispute. They're arguing, this is just a guy being upset because the girl doesn't want to be with him. He'll get over it, right? They're not looking at it through the lens that we look through it now, where we, through education and obviously other cases and information, we understand as law enforcement officials now that this can escalate and it doesn't always subside and the guy doesn't always move on. And sometimes this pattern can ultimately lead to death. So we have to intervene when we are made aware of it. So again, back then. It wasn't that long ago when you really think about it, but it was a different time and it wasn't taken as seriously.

• 58:32Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm not saying it's okay, but I, I agree with you completely. I think they looked at it. They looked at the guy who was scorned, who was upset that this girl didn't want to be with him. And it was gonna blow over.

• 58:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  She had a new boyfriend, right? So they're like, ah, you know, you, maybe you did cheat on him. Now you got a new boyfriend already. So maybe the, you know, he's just, he's just hurt and, and almost like blaming her, like, you know, he, he loves you, man. So.

• 58:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I, I don't know the officers. I don't know. If they were looking at her like, yeah, you kind of did this to yourself. I don't know, but I'm just talking on the surface. At the time. In the nineties, they weren't taking stalking and harassment complaints. As seriously as they are now where they're documenting it because like we've seen in the, in the, in the more recent future. That. These cases where officers have an opportunity to intervene, a la Gabby Batito, things like that. And they don't. And someone gets killed because of it. There are ramifications for your action. There are consequences.

• 59:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Social media to call people out.

• 59:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Call people out. So even if the police even now don't necessarily believe in what they're hearing or. Feel a particular way about it based on their own personal experiences with women or men. They take the report as a cover your own ass.

• 59:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, which they should anyways. Yeah.

• 59:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Should, but that's what I'm saying. They, they're not letting those things go, especially with body cameras, but. Just to reiterate. Not to justify, not to excuse. In the nineties, it was more so you guys will get over it. Go your separate ways. Be big boys and girls.

• 59:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm. Yep. Let him, uh, let him just cry it out and get his little temper tantrums out and he'll find another girlfriend soon.

• 1:00:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, he'll get over it. He'll get over it.

• 1:00:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, what's even more frustrating though, is that Patrick already had a history of scaring women. After his divorce from his second wife, the mother of his daughter. Several charges were filed against him for vandalizing her home. He had broken her windows and used a chemical paint peeler on her house. And in one of the police reports, his ex-wife made a chilling statement. She said that if the police didn't do something, Patrick would either kill her or kill their daughter. And she was terrified. And you might be wondering, why would he kill the daughter? He would kill the daughter to hurt the mother.

• 1:00:39Derrick Levasseur?

  That's right.

• 1:00:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's what Josh Powell did, right? So many of these cases where, well, a lot of these cases at least, where a parent kills a child is to hurt the other parent. That's why it happens. So that was a very valid fear. Patrick's ex-wife was obviously terrified at the time and for good reason. So we have now a history that he's doing this, documented police reports, and the police still aren't doing anything. That's crazy. That's wild to me.

• 1:01:09Derrick Levasseur?

  And unfortunately, Peggy wasn't aware of this stuff, right? So she can't let the police know, like, hey, you need to go talk to this person. There's a pattern here. But I do want to talk about this more because this isn't only about Peggy's cases, about the bigger picture. And we're kind of diving into it now. But let's take our last break, and we'll be right back.

• 1:01:30Derrick Levasseur?

  It's now today, 2025. This would be all, this should be all done. Police would be looking into his past, looking at criminal records, looking at previous police reports from his, you know, prior spouses, all that stuff. The unfortunate thing here, not only was the time in which it took place, but as you've kind of said throughout this whole episode, from the first wife to this incident that you just described before the break with the chemical, the paint peeling.

• 1:01:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  With his second wife, yeah.

• 1:01:54Derrick Levasseur?

  With the second wife. Peggy doesn't know about any of this.

• 1:01:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not yet, yes.

• 1:01:58Derrick Levasseur?

  So she can't even relay this to the law enforcement officers at the time because he's done a great job of insulating her from who he really is. And that just tells you how premeditated all of this was.

• 1:02:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, but the police could have known about it, right? If they had looked into Patrick, even just a little, they would have, if they had even typed his name into their computer, those police reports would have pulled up.

• 1:02:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Not necessarily. And here's what I'll say. There is this, this, it should be this way, and it is getting better, but every internal database, system that police officers have, we, ours is called IMC. They're not connected to other police departments. Now, as we go forward, there's, there's systems that do have an interconnection where you can access reports, or at least the report numbers from other police departments, and then follow up with them by a phone call to say, hey, I see in here that there's a police report for the subject that I'm looking into. Can you fax me over the report? But there are a lot of situations, especially at this time, where everything's segmented and you don't have access to other internal databases. So unless he was arrested for this paint peeling incident.

• 1:03:07Derrick Levasseur?

  There wouldn't be a record of it on his criminal history. It would just be an incident report that was taken by whatever jurisdiction took the report. And unless they knew to call that police department and ask them for it, they wouldn't have access to it. Especially again, we're talking 1990s, not 2025. There is a conscious effort every year to get better where all of the systems throughout the country, even if the reports don't reach a criminal level, law enforcement officers, as you're alluding to right now, can put in someone's name. And if they've been involved with something in another state, even if it didn't arise to the, to the level of them being arrested, you could at least have access to the, the basic details.

• 1:03:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Other than it getting to the level of NCIC, which is what we use to run a background check on someone, that wouldn't pop up. That's an internal database among the different jurisdictions. So it is getting better now, but back then, they still should have done it. And maybe they did, but if they did, it probably wouldn't pop up. That's all I'm saying.

• 1:04:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think that they probably could have. I think that if they had looked into him at all, because we don't know if this happened in another state. I mean, we don't know if this happened in another state. What if it happened in Albuquerque? What if they typed Patrick Kennedy into their, their computer? And they can see the reports from his ex-wife that he's defacing her house and that she's scared for her life.

• 1:04:33Derrick Levasseur?

  It wouldn't, it more than likely wouldn't pop up and more than likely wouldn't pop up. I'm just telling you, like even at that time, there weren't even laptops in your vehicle. But you go, you go back into the station, you pull up your computer. More than likely, the database, again, just to reiterate, where that report was taken was a different police department. Now, if you told me it was the same police department, I completely agree. But what I'm saying is two police departments, Police Department A and Police Department B. They didn't have a way of communicating with each other internally on the computer systems. And I would even say in 1990, the computers weren't as prevalent. They were still using typewriters in some cases. So a lot of the reports that were taken were on paper. So it was a physical filing cabinet where it was.

• 1:05:17Derrick Levasseur?

  So unless the police officer knew about this Patrick's previous history and where they lived and previous marital relationships, and they would have to call that police department and say, hey, I am looking into this guy, Patrick. He may have lived in your community. Do you have anything on file for him? They would have to go to that extent. And what I said earlier still applies here. They weren't looking into stalking and harassment at that time the way they are now. And so none of it's justified. It's why we make improvements in law enforcement every single day, every single year. But I'm just trying to be fair to the time that we're talking about because I'm very critical of law enforcement, but I have to also be fair about it based on the tools and the resources they had at the time.

• 1:06:01Derrick Levasseur?

  And they would not have been able to just punch his name in somewhere and it would have popped up from another jurisdiction showing an incident where his name was a person of interest or even just an involved participant that wouldn't just pop up like that.

• 1:06:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know, man. If someone was telling me like, hey, this guy popped out of the bushes with a ring. He set my boyfriend's house on fire. He defaced my mother's house. He's called me a million times. I'd be like, hey, I might want to look into this guy. Sounds kind of crazy, but I get what you're saying. It's just unfortunate all around.

• 1:06:30Derrick Levasseur?

  The question is, how do you look into it? That's what length are you going to? And I'm not making excuses. I'm just trying to clear the deck as people are going to be commenting on this. Let's be fair. Let's be fair about everything. And I always want to see law enforcement do more, but I also got to, my job here is to relay the resources at that time, too. And I can tell you they weren't what they are today. But. It's still important to talk about, and I'm glad these incidents occur for because we are able to grow and learn from our mistakes, which is why if something like this happened today, to your point, we would be able to look into it. We would be able to put that name in a system and we would be able to see if they've had interactions with police officers in other jurisdictions, just by punching in their name and date of birth.

• 1:07:14Derrick Levasseur?

  So, and I'm sure 10 years from now, it'll be even better.

• 1:07:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hopefully, hopefully these guys will have tattoos on their heads to show that that they that they should be stayed away from, a scarlet letter.

• 1:07:25Derrick Levasseur?

  That'd be great.

• 1:07:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, law enforcement wasn't taking action and Peggy ended up having to hire an attorney and she filed a criminal complaint against Patrick for everything he had done. And this would later be decided upon at a trial. To prepare for the trial, Peggy and Mark began keeping a detailed stalking log. They documented all the phone calls, saved their cellphone bills, and kept a copy of the flyer in a secure place. Peggy also filed for an order of protection and she was granted one, but then Patrick retaliated and filed one against her. In the document, he accused Peggy of being an alcoholic, claimed she had a substance abuse issue, said she was crazy, and that she had been harassing him

• 1:08:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  and his seven-year-old daughter and was a danger to them both. And somehow, it worked. Patrick was granted a protection order of his own. This isn't really a somehow thing, to be honest. This is very common. They will give both parties a protection order, an order of protection, and then basically just let that stand. It's just more paperwork. It's more like kind of keeping a detailed log and having things on file. It's pretty common, actually, that people will file protective orders in retaliation and then they'll get it and then it just muddies the waters. But regardless, Peggy and Patrick were required to attend a hearing together. And according to Debbie, the judge looked at both of them

• 1:08:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  and said that he had enough of them and told them to leave each other alone. But the moment they stepped out of that courtroom, Patrick called Peggy and said, "Don't fuck with me", and told her that he knew how to play this game better than she did. So Patrick kept contacting Peggy even though he was under a court order to stay away from her. He didn't care one bit. He violated the order repeatedly and continued stalking Peggy. She reported it, telling both her attorney and the police that the protection order wasn't working, but no one in law enforcement seemed concerned.

• 1:09:22Derrick Levasseur?

  And this is where it's a problem, by the way. I can make a justification for a law enforcement officer missing something from a previous marriage that wasn't disclosed in another jurisdiction, but now you have a documented history from the same victim coming to you asking for help and you're not intervening. Completely different case, unacceptable.

• 1:09:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I mean, I've talked to police about this and they basically say like, what can we do?

• 1:09:44Derrick Levasseur?

  It is tough. It is tough, but you've got to continue to document it. You've got to continue to bring them back to court and at least regardless, you're doing your part. But law enforcement is kind of tied here because it's not a crime at this point. You could try to charge them with it, but it's going to be difficult to get it over.

• 1:10:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's violating a court order so they can technically arrest him.

• 1:10:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 1:10:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  But then he's going to be let out.

• 1:10:06Derrick Levasseur?

  He's going to get out.

• 1:10:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then he does it again and they arrest him and he gets out.

• 1:10:10Derrick Levasseur?

  And then usually what will happen is eventually someone gets hurt.

• 1:10:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 1:10:14Derrick Levasseur?

  And then it's the blame game, which I've talked about. I hate it. I don't know why it happens this way. The judicial system's all messed up, but yes, at this point, when you have this victim coming forward, asking for help at minimum, you could take the police report, which would violate the restraining order, go pick them up on the court order and at least for that night, that woman would have some peace. But they didn't do that and that's a problem. So I don't care about the times at that point. I can give you reasonings why they may have not have done things before because of the tools they had at their disposal. There's no excuse here.

• 1:10:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I mean, I understand. There's really not all that much they can do besides like you said.

• 1:10:51Derrick Levasseur?

  No, just do their job.

• 1:10:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Put them behind bars for a few hours. Yeah.

• 1:10:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, do their job.

• 1:10:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then they, and then the guy gets out and he's even more pissed.

• 1:10:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, it can escalate things. There were definitely calls that I went on where I, I knew that by doing this, I was doing my job and I was gonna do what they needed me to do, but it could, it could backfire because I couldn't park at their house and sit there and protect her all night.

• 1:11:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  As the woman in that situation, you have to do that because you need it on record that he's violating. So when you go back to court, you can stand in front of the judge and say, hey, you said you're sick of us and you want us to leave each other alone. I have left him alone, but he's not leaving me alone.

• 1:11:24Derrick Levasseur?

  And then, and like you just said in the statement, the judge looks at both parties and he's, and they're, he or she is pissed off at both of them, looking at them both like they're kids. And, and unfortunately for the judge, they're not in the home, so they don't know who the, really the aggressor is. They can only go off what's being displayed in court. And always, the real abuser will present themselves as like this angel at court. That's what they do.

• 1:11:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Peggy went to the police to report the violations and they told her to wait for the trial, but the trial kept being delayed. So Debbie told us that Peggy was constantly dismissed because she didn't have visible injuries. Without bruises or physical harm, the police minimized what she was going through, even when she showed them cellphone records and played voicemail messages, trying to show the pattern and severity of the stalking. Officers told her to come back when he does something to you. And that, that is still, once again, very, very similar to, to this day. That these, these men know how to walk the line. They know exactly what they can sort of get away from, what won't raise a ton of red flags for law enforcement, and they do that, and they do

• 1:12:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  it repeatedly and repeatedly, and it's torturous and harassing and stalking. So Debbie told us she was deeply frustrated by law enforcement's repeated inaction. She remembered telling officers, he's breaking the law, I need you to do your job. But despite all their efforts, Peggy's cries for help were ignored, and she was left to navigate the constant threat on her own with no real support or protection. At that point, all Peggy and her family could do was keep documenting the harassment and telling police what was happening. They were doing everything they could to build the case for trial. Debbie said they placed a lot of trust in the criminal justice system. They thought, you know, there's gonna be a trial and he's gonna go to jail for this. But deep down, Debbie had a bad feeling. Her gut was telling her, this could get really ugly, and she

• 1:13:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  was right. While Peggy was waiting for the trial, she decided the safest thing that she could do Was leave Albuquerque. She packed up and moved 1,000 miles away to Turlock, California, where she saddled into a duplex. The woman who lived next door, Rachel, quickly became a friend, and for a little while, things felt more hopeful. At first, Patrick didn't know where Peggy had gone, and that gave her a bit of peace. But Peggy was also proactive. As soon as she moved in, she got to work warning people. She brought a photo of Patrick to her neighbors and told them that he was stalking her, and she warned them that he might find her and show up. She gave them her mother's phone number just in case something happened. She also warned her coworkers about Patrick

• 1:13:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  and told them that if anyone ever called asking for her, they should deny knowing her. She was doing everything she could to stay safe. Peggy was doing everything right. This is everything that you should do. You should let people know. You should call people, especially people that he maybe doesn't know you're close with, he doesn't know you're friendly with, and tell them, you know, if something happens to me, you gotta look into this guy. Or if you see him, this is what he's doing. You have to let people know what's happening to some extent, because these people will sort of just fly under the radar and act like nice guys. And maybe they encounter one of your friends or your new coworkers, and all of a sudden, they have all this access to your life again. Peggy even went to the Turlock Police Department to find out if her order of protection

• 1:14:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  would transfer over from New Mexico. But that's when she learned that it had never been properly filed. Somewhere in the system, it had been lost. If she wanted to refile, she would have to list her new address on the paperwork, and she knew she couldn't risk that. She didn't want Patrick to know where she lived, so she chose not to refile, which is the same decision I would make at that point. You gotta weigh the pros and cons. You have to ask yourself, how well did this protective order actually protect me? And doesn't him not knowing where I am protect me a little bit more than some piece of paper that he never followed to begin with?

• 1:15:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, that's the problem with all of this, right? Like, it is a piece of paper. You would think, when you hear about it, you think it's really gonna protect you, but it doesn't. And you do have to weigh the pros and cons of it, and the process to go through it. Is it really worth it? Especially... I don't know if she was planning on staying in Turlock or not, or it was just a temporary thing. It sounds like it was a temporary thing.

• 1:15:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think it was temporary, yeah.

• 1:15:26Derrick Levasseur?

  But yeah, I mean, listen, I, I, I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I've never really liked these, you know, the restraining orders. I've always liked no contact orders better. Um, there's a little bit of a difference with, with a no contact order. It is an arrestable offense on the spot. That's usually issued to a victim of a crime, whether it's domestic violence.

• 1:15:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Even when they get arrested on a no contact order, they're let out within a few hours.

• 1:15:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Uh, not necessarily. There are some, there are some variables that go into that. I can't promise you they're going to stay behind bars, but what I can tell you is this, with a restraining order, which you go through the court process is a lot harder to get, because you got to go there, you got to speak, you got to give it, sign an affidavit. With a restraining order, what happens is the person will violate it. Then the officers take the report, then it goes to the judge, then they get an arrest warrant form, then they go lock them up. But with a no contact order, at least it's immediate. If they find the person or they can prove that they were there, they can go throw the cuffs on them and they're in jail for that night until their arraignment. So, yes, it's not perfect, it's not the best, but back to what I was saying with the restraining orders, it is a lot of work and it doesn't offer a ton of protection. And you said something a couple of statements ago where it's like,

• 1:16:30Derrick Levasseur?

  oh, call us when he does something to you again. That's what it usually takes.

• 1:16:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Call us when he does something to you.

• 1:16:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, when he does something to you.

• 1:16:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Something that we can see, yeah.

• 1:16:39Derrick Levasseur?

  That, that, that's a problem, right? Like, I don't think I'm saying anything that's super like, new and innovative. We shouldn't have to wait until there's physical injuries before we intervene. And I know I sound a little bit like a broken record this episode, but we are getting better at it. It's still not good, but it is getting better. There are now times where just the words of the victim coming forward with something to prove that this harassment is taking place, whether it's digitally or through voic- phone, voicemail, whatever it might be. They are documenting what's occurring to build a story. To eventually have someone arrested for stalking or harassment. So still got a long way to go. But um, yeah, it can be demoralizing with these restraining orders because they don't work the way you would like them to. And that's just the truth of it.

• 1:17:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I mean, I think even a no contact is considered a restraining order. There's just different types. Like there's the stay away, which is like, oh, you can't be within a certain amount of feet from each other. And then the no contact is like, yes, if you reach out in any way, whether it's email, phone, but they're both restraining orders. Technically, they're just different levels.

• 1:17:42Derrick Levasseur?

  They're different. They, they, one's a, one's a violation of a court order. One's a no contact order issued based on the, the crime. So you're at a domestic violence situation, or even it could be an assault, where someone just, you hit someone or something like that. If you come in contact with that victim again, you can be arrested, no questions asked. Just you being there, and the officers having proof of a previous incident where you were arrested, the no contact order is usually issued at the time of arraignment.

• 1:18:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, this is, it's just, I, I see the way it's going, and it's just not good.

• 1:18:11Derrick Levasseur?

  It's aggravating, yeah.

• 1:18:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's very aggravating. And obviously, um, this is an incredibly stressful time. And like we said, Peggy moved to California. But during this time, Peggy and Mark continued their relationship while he lived in Albuquerque. So they continued at long distance. And things became serious, and Mark actually purchased an engagement ring. His plan was to propose after Patrick's trial, which had been postponed again, this time to the end of January 2003. But those plans never happened. Because instead of giving Peggy the ring, Mark would end up burying it with her.

• 1:18:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, not good. And there's obviously a lot more to unpack and talk about. And like I just said, for me, where, where we are is, this is a learning lesson. And Debbie is, has kind of said that, as she helped put this episode together. There's nothing that's going to bring Peggy back. But maybe there's something in here that we're discussing that can prevent this from happening to someone else. And that's really the goal with covering the series. There's no mystery here. Right? There's very little, uh, lack of understanding of what happened here. Everyone knows where this was going. And it's, it's just this car crash that you're seeing. And there's nothing you can do to stop it. But the reason we're covering it. is to make sure that everyone knows who Peggy was in life and not just as a victim,

• 1:19:32Derrick Levasseur?

  but also to take what happened to her so that you can learn from it, but also me sitting here as a former law enforcement guy and maybe there's other law enforcement people or legislators who are listening or watching this who hear this story and decide to make sure that they have stuff in place in their own jurisdictions, their municipalities to ensure this doesn't happen to someone else. That's why it's important to cover this case.

• 1:19:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  I completely agree and I know for a fact that there is a good amount of people listening right now who have either been in a relationship like this and luckily gotten out or are in a relationship like this now and are looking for a way out. And you know, let us know in the comments what you feel about it. If you need help, there are resources out there and you can and should seek those resources out. And if you need support, Derek and I are here for you always.

• 1:20:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, absolutely. And just to, just to give you guys this, and most of you know it'll be on the screen right here, the domestic violence hotline is 1-800-799-7233. And I think a lot of times when you hear domestic violence, you think of physical abuse, right? But it also can fall under, especially with the domestic violence statutes, the way they are now, harassment and stalking would fall under that. So if you're not getting the, the help that you need from law enforcement, contact your local DV advocate. But there are DV advocates in almost every jurisdiction, every state. We had one right in our own police department. So if you're not getting what you think, the services that you need, the resources that you need, call them because sometimes having that advocate speak on your behalf, they may have relationships with people inside that police department. Talk

• 1:21:06Derrick Levasseur?

  to them. They can be your conduit to the people you need to get to and make sure that you have a, a, access to all the information and all the services that you have available to you to prevent this from happening to you and maybe to get you in a better spot.

• 1:21:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  I promise you, they have great local resources everywhere and these people will help you every step of the way. They'll help you fill out paperwork. They will sit with you when you go in front of the judge. They will let you cry though. They, they are there for you and it's a such a complicated procedure to go through and you want to navigate and you want to make sure you're doing everything right. They really help you every step of the way, I promise. So please, and it's not, it's not always, yeah, it's not always just stalking and harassment too, because I know that there's some people that are probably married. And they're thinking, oh, I'm not being stalked or harassed. Coercive control is also domestic violence. These emotional, mental, verbal abuse, also domestic violence.

• 1:22:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  So just reach out to somebody, get help. There's people out there to help you. And like I said, Derek and I are here anytime you need us.

• 1:22:09Derrick Levasseur?

  That's right, absolutely. We are here for you. We want everyone to stay safe out there. So we'll be back next week with part two of the series. It's going to be the second and final part. It'll come to a conclusion, but final words. Thank you to Debbie again for being part of the series. Everyone, seriously, stay safe out there. We'll see you next week.

• 1:22:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.