Jack Rooke

We are so happy to be joined by award winning comedy writer Jack Rooke on the podcast this week! Fresh from his BAFTA win for his beautiful comedy series ‘Big Boys’ (and still suffering from a 2 day hangover), Jack joined us for brunch to celebrate the occasion. Jack is in the midst of preparing for the return of his comedy show ‘Good Grief’, and we talked about how comedy helped him with the loss of his dad when he was a teen. We also covered meeting Celie Imrie, rating gifted lasagnes, his love of working in Paris, his dream of Christmas dinner & thanksgiving merged into one meal, and we even get a confession involving Jessie’s mobile number! What a total delight to chat with the fabulous Jack, good luck with the tour! ‘Good Grief’ is touring the UK from August to October, tickets on sale now. Listen & watch Table Manners here - https://tablemanners.komi.io/ Follow Table Manners on: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tablemannerspodcast/ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@tablemannerspodcast Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/tablemannerspodcast YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@TableMannersPodcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:35Jessie Ware?

  Hello and welcome to Tabor Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with Lenny. And it's a windy spring day. Are we still in spring?

• 0:43Speaker 02

  No, it should be summer by May, but absolutely it's not summer.

• 0:47Jessie Ware?

  I nearly have the heating on.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  I had it full blast all over.

• 0:50Jessie Ware?

  It's blowing a hooly out there.

• 0:51Speaker 02

  I know, and that's a cold wind.

• 0:54Jessie Ware?

  We're doing a breakfast episode today. So someone's coming over for breakfast. It's Jack Rook, who I absolutely love. He created one of the best TV shows on Channel 4. Brilliant British, I don't know, would you call it comedy? It is comedy, but it's also completely touching and beautiful called Big Boys. Had three seasons, I adored them all. But started in the Edinburgh Fringe with winning, I think, lots of accolades for his, his stand-up called Good Grief, which has its 10-year anniversary this year. And that's why he's going back to Edinburgh to do it.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  How old is he?

• 1:31Jessie Ware?

  He's, he's, he's one of them, them ones.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  That started young.

• 1:34Jessie Ware?

  He's a bit Lena Dunham age, you know what I mean? Very clever and successful at a young age. Has he reached 30 yet? Yeah, I think maybe he is 30 or something. He's just very good. And he's coming over to talk about Good Grief, coming back.

• 1:49Speaker 02

  And I hope Big Boys.

• 1:50Jessie Ware?

  No, Big Boys is wrapped up, Mum, if you haven't.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  I know, but he'll still talk, he won't talk about that?

• 1:55Jessie Ware?

  He says he's done with pretending he's at uni now.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  So he's not a big boy anymore?

• 2:00Jessie Ware?

  He's a big, big boy now.

• 2:01Speaker 02

  He's a big boy, yeah.

• 2:03Jessie Ware?

  So we have Jack Rook coming on to talk about, yeah, stand-up, Good Grief, Big Boys, all of it. And I love seeing Jack and can't wait to chat to him. And I've been on food duty. Let me get the cookbooks. So Itamar and Sarit, who I love, they are Honey and Co. They are just the most beautiful couple, but also amazing, amazing chefs. They've got a new cookbook called Honey and Co Daily. And they've got Eggs the Daily Way, which is just kind of, you know, we're doing breakfast, so why not? There's peas with basil, spring onions, garlic and a bit of Aleppo chili. And then you just do it on toast. I didn't make my sourdough because I haven't done my starter. I know, I'm sorry.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  You're slipping.

• 2:45Jessie Ware?

  I know.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Did you buy it?

• 2:46Jessie Ware?

  I did, and I got a nice M and S bread.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:48Jessie Ware?

  It's good.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:49Jessie Ware?

  And then you just have a fried egg, but you put, you kind of coat the toast with some goat's juice. So there's like.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  How would you, how would you describe the crust? Is it a veneer removal crust?

• 2:59Jessie Ware?

  This one, yeah.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay.

• 3:00Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, absolutely. And then we've done, I say we because Rosie, my sweet Rosie, has helped me with the custard. So another amazing chef, Helen Graham, has this new book.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Not related to James, is she?

• 3:15Jessie Ware?

  She's not, but she did go to university with your son.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 3:19Jessie Ware?

  And she was the head chef at Bubela, that amazing vegetarian restaurant.

• 3:25Jessie Ware?

  And centerpiece is her cookbook and it's really beautiful and it really complements Sarit and Itamar's food. And I've done hot apricots and cold saffron custard.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:35Jessie Ware?

  But Rosie, sweet Rosie, made the custard yesterday. I tasted it this morning and it was a bit grainy, so we did a new one. And now the next one is a bit runny. So I don't know, you can have grainy and more firm or you can have runny and not great.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  It'll taste delicious.

• 3:49Jessie Ware?

  Anyway, and so, yeah, you fry the apricots in some maple syrup and olive oil and some sea salt flakes. So it's really, and the custard is amazing. I know you're not mad about saffron, are you?

• 4:02Speaker 02

  No.

• 4:02Jessie Ware?

  Sorry.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  I love the colour.

• 4:04Jessie Ware?

  It tastes so beautiful.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Slightly, no, I think, I mean, I have had a little taste and it tasted delicious.

• 4:11Jessie Ware?

  So, yeah, it's nice. Two cookbooks from two brilliant chefs. And it's just nice to have new ideas.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:18Jessie Ware?

  So, yeah, Jack Brook coming up on Taking Matters.

• 4:28Jessie Ware?

  Jack.

• 4:29Speaker 03

  Do I look human?

• 4:30Jessie Ware?

  What do you mean? You look amazing.

• 4:32Speaker 03

  Okay, great.

• 4:33Jessie Ware?

  But the voice is horse.

• 4:34Speaker 03

  The voice is horse.

• 4:35Jessie Ware?

  Why is the voice horse?

• 4:36Speaker 03

  I just spoke to absolutely everyone on Sunday night.

• 4:39Jessie Ware?

  You're a chatter.

• 4:40Speaker 03

  So I was chatting, I met Martin Lewis, money saved for years.

• 4:43Jessie Ware?

  Oh my god, his speech was so beautiful.

• 4:46Speaker 03

  His speech was so nice.

• 4:47Jessie Ware?

  And quite like, like, I mean.

• 4:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:49Jessie Ware?

  Did you talk about?

• 4:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, we spoke about his speech and we also, and he was like, we really love big boys. And it was so nice.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Everyone loves big boys.

• 4:57Speaker 03

  It's very, very sweet.

• 4:58Jessie Ware?

  Can we just say firstly, congratulations, you won a BAFTA.

• 5:01Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 5:02Jessie Ware?

  A BAFTA craft, I mean, a BAFTA for comedy writer.

• 5:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:06Jessie Ware?

  For big boys.

• 5:06Speaker 03

  For big boys.

• 5:07Jessie Ware?

  Which you know I love.

• 5:08Speaker 03

  Well, thank you darling.

• 5:08Jessie Ware?

  And mum said, well, I can't wait for the next season. I was like, no, this shit's wrapped up.

• 5:13Speaker 03

  No, it's done.

• 5:14Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 5:14Speaker 03

  It's done. But in a really lovely way, we got to end it how we wanted to end it.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  You could do old boys next.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Oh, I'd love to do old. Do you know what I'd really like to do next?

• 5:23Speaker 02

  What?

• 5:23Speaker 03

  Big girls.

• 5:24Jessie Ware?

  Oh.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, big girls, I'm working on it.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Are you?

• 5:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  It's a brand.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  It's a brand.

• 5:32Jessie Ware?

  And so congratulations on your BAFTA, but you were also at the BAFTAs, the telly BAFTAs on Sunday. It's now Tuesday when we're recording this, by the way.

• 5:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:41Jessie Ware?

  And you have apparently just left your party.

• 5:44Speaker 03

  We've just, so I haven't just left the party. We left the party at about six, seven AM on Monday morning. The whole roof of the Sea Containers, the whole rooftop bar. So you, so you have the BAFTAs, the ceremony is so long, everybody is.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  That's the Royal Festival Hall.

• 5:59Speaker 03

  At the Royal Festival Hall. Then you have a dinner, you kind of get through that because no one's eaten in about four or five hours.

• 6:04Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 6:05Speaker 03

  Then you have a party sort of on like the concourse of the South Bank.

• 6:09Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 6:09Speaker 03

  And it was amazing and everyone's there. And then everyone goes at two AM to the Sea Containers Hotel where the rooftop is from two till six.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  When you say everyone.

• 6:19Speaker 03

  I mean.

• 6:20Jessie Ware?

  Who was partying till six AM?

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Was the older ones there?

• 6:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  It was a really lovely, I felt like this year was one of the loveliest BAFTAs I've been to. It really felt like everyone there just wanted to sort of celebrate. And I think it's like. It's been quite tough, the TV and film film industry, I think like.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Why?

• 6:38Speaker 03

  I think there's been a lot of stuff that hasn't been able to get, you know, cross the line. It's been tricky for a lot of workforce. I mean, a lot of people are sort of struggling with like sort of unemployment. Like, there's been definitely been a decline. I think post Covid, there was a boom of making loads of film and TV and then it's been a bit of a tricky one. So. If you're managing to make work and then you're managing to be nominated for a BAFTA and then you're managing to win them, you want to have a bit of a booze up.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I suppose you do.

• 7:07Jessie Ware?

  So what were you drinking and who were you dancing with?

• 7:10Speaker 03

  I was drinking, because I'm very classy, a lot of Negronis.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 7:14Speaker 03

  Which is my favourite drink.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Is it? Why?

• 7:17Speaker 03

  Because I sort of think, if I'm, I'm not a big drinker, but if I'm gonna drink, I want it to taste like booze.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:24Speaker 03

  I want it to hit the back of my throat.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  So what's the main spirit in a Negroni?

• 7:28Speaker 03

  The moo.

• 7:29Jessie Ware?

  Gin, the moo, campari.

• 7:31Speaker 03

  Campari.

• 7:32Jessie Ware?

  It's a shit mix.

• 7:32Speaker 03

  It's a real, it's a real.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  It's quite bitter.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  It can be quite bitter and then sometimes you can get different deviations. You can get a white Negroni where they replace something. So maybe it's blank, I don't know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna sound like a mixologist.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  Soda in to make it long?

• 7:48Speaker 03

  No.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  What?

• 7:50Speaker 03

  But maybe they could do.

• 7:51Jessie Ware?

  That's the.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  What's Spagliato?

• 7:53Jessie Ware?

  There's that very fair, you don't know about memes already, do you? It's not a meme, is it?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  No, I don't know.

• 7:57Jessie Ware?

  Oh, it's like.

• 7:57Speaker 03

  You would love this.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  Can't even spell it.

• 7:59Jessie Ware?

  It's like, who was it? Olivia?

• 8:01Speaker 03

  It's Olivia Cook.

• 8:02Jessie Ware?

  Cook with Emma Darby.

• 8:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, from House of Dragon.

• 8:06Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 8:07Speaker 03

  And she goes, Negroni, Spagliato. With a bit of prosecco in it or something like that.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Do you put prosecco in it sometimes?

• 8:12Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, but I think that's the one that fucked me up the other day and I had the worst hangover on.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have, I, I have had, I have got a slight hangover still. I hope you don't mind. And I, that was never what, what I ever wanted to bring to table manners.

• 8:24Jessie Ware?

  You're clean, you look happy.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Sparkly.

• 8:27Speaker 03

  Okay, pray.

• 8:28Jessie Ware?

  Yes, bright eyed.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  So who was the most interesting person you spoke to?

• 8:33Speaker 03

  Do you know what, when you when you get nominated for BAFTAs, you sort of do like a week of events before. So this is why I'm exhausted. We did we did like a big Vogue party on Wednesday.

• 8:45Jessie Ware?

  Of course.

• 8:46Speaker 03

  There's a Dunhill dinner. I actually dressed myself.

• 8:49Jessie Ware?

  You are good at dressing yourself.

• 8:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think because as a bigger person, it's quite difficult to get a stylist who's going to find brands that.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  You know what, you want.

• 8:58Speaker 03

  Become quite good. I wore an Adidas collaboration Balenciaga blazer. So we're talking like a black oversized, but with the Adidas three stripes down the side. It was very Mel C.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Funny.

• 9:10Speaker 03

  Yeah. But I met Celia Imrie.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  Oh, did she fart?

• 9:14Jessie Ware?

  She's lovely.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  Wish she'd farted. No, she did not fart. She just, she was, yeah, I know, I thought.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  I felt so sorry.

• 9:24Jessie Ware?

  This woman.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  This woman in green. I'm like, she's an icon.

• 9:28Jessie Ware?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 9:29Speaker 03

  She's a national treasure.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  She's a fantastic actress.

• 9:32Jessie Ware?

  He'll probably cast her in the new studio.

• 9:34Speaker 03

  She should be in the studio.

• 9:35Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, if he's lucky to get the Imrie.

• 9:37Speaker 03

  She's been in incredible American stuff as well. She's she's in a show called Better Things.

• 9:42Jessie Ware?

  Better Things, my favourite.

• 9:43Speaker 03

  Okay, so.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  There's a new season.

• 9:46Speaker 03

  Look, Better Things is a hugely, when I first started writing Big Boys, I was watching Better Things. And I think the way that they play out relationships and those moments in which, and maybe particularly like, I sort of feel like I come from more of a matriarchal family than anything. Like, I've got a lot of aunties, a lot of female cousins, nieces.

• 10:05Jessie Ware?

  And I feel, I also feel like you really celebrate that in Big Boys, by the way, like that beauty of like your ma. It's like, it's a beautiful.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:14Jessie Ware?

  Beautiful.

• 10:15Speaker 03

  I think that's why I want to write big girls. I prefer writing women in a weird way. Even though, I know.

• 10:22Jessie Ware?

  And your cousin.

• 10:23Speaker 03

  Big Boys, Cousin Shannon.

• 10:24Jessie Ware?

  Because she had such a great, like the arc.

• 10:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:29Jessie Ware?

  It was beautiful.

• 10:30Speaker 03

  Well, thank you. I think, I mean, yeah, I don't think Better Things in particular.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  Okay, so did you dance with Celia Imrie?

• 10:36Speaker 03

  Danced with Celia Imrie, then met Celia Imrie the next day.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:40Speaker 03

  At the, at this Dunhill dinner.

• 10:43Jessie Ware?

  She was in. And we were still talking about better things and then we were sort of.

• 10:47Speaker 03

  Can I confess something?

• 10:49Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 03

  So I've done something really bad and you should tell me off for this.

• 10:52Jessie Ware?

  Why?

• 10:53Speaker 03

  I smoked my first ever cigarette in February.

• 10:55Jessie Ware?

  And now you're addicted.

• 10:56Speaker 03

  My final cigarette with Celia Emery on Thursday and we both went, we should quit, shouldn't we? And I haven't smoked since.

• 11:04Jessie Ware?

  I mean, I mean.

• 11:04Speaker 03

  I mean, it was only. But I think, no, I think, I think start late, have a little double. It was just to get me through the bath season.

• 11:12Jessie Ware?

  You sound like maybe you could be prone to asthma.

• 11:14Speaker 03

  I am.

• 11:15Jessie Ware?

  So I think maybe avoid cough.

• 11:17Speaker 03

  We're gonna, we're gonna avoid cigarettes now, but me and Celia Emery had a cigarette in, in Mayfair. I mean, this is the most name dropping, show busy, lovely stuff, but she was really, really lovely and to speak to her about better things. And to speak to her, I suppose, about being an actor and better things, what I, what I really love. I mean, there's an episode. With her that I think is called Phyllis in a car park. Do you remember the scene in a car park? And this is like, she gets lost, she can't find her car.

• 11:43Jessie Ware?

  Oh, yeah, cause she's kind of losing her mind, yeah.

• 11:45Speaker 03

  And then there's a beautiful funeral episode. But I just think on the whole, to have somebody like her in an American show. To me, I'm like, that's a very classy casting.

• 11:55Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 11:55Speaker 03

  I think Pam and Adlon is a very classy writer maker.

• 11:58Jessie Ware?

  Do you feel like Seth Rogen really didn't know who she was? Yeah. Well, then he's not watching enough telly.

• 12:04Speaker 03

  He's not watching enough TV, actually, Seth Rogen.

• 12:06Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 12:07Speaker 03

  Watch some more telly.

• 12:07Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, some really good comedy, Seth.

• 12:10Speaker 03

  But I mean, she was so lovely and I also found out that she doesn't fly. She's got that condition where you're not really supposed to be on a plane, that, that kind of.

• 12:20Jessie Ware?

  So she goes by boat to America?

• 12:22Speaker 03

  Gets the Queen Mary.

• 12:23Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  To New York.

• 12:24Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 03

  She entertains everyone for a week, basically like she introduces screenings, she kind of hosts and compares. Then she gets a series of cars and trains across to Los Angeles. I thought that dedication. To being like, I wanna be in better things. At, at her, you know, stage in her career, I was like, yeah. Celia Emery was hands down the best person I've met.

• 12:45Jessie Ware?

  Okay. I, um. I just wanna take a moment to acknowledge your brilliant speech.

• 12:53Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you .

• 12:53Jessie Ware?

  Because you got it all out.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  I know, and it was completely .

• 12:56Jessie Ware?

  You were amazing .

• 12:57Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 12:58Jessie Ware?

  And for anybody that didn't listen to it, you were talking about cuts to Edinburgh.

• 13:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:03Jessie Ware?

  And also state schools about how, can you explain better than I'm going to?

• 13:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it, I won like maybe last Sunday and I wasn't really expecting to because I'd won the year before. And the kind of thing in, in America, people win, you know, seventeen of the same awards for each season they do. But in the UK, that doesn't really happen.

• 13:24Jessie Ware?

  Except if you're in adolescence, darling. Oh, God, yeah. Did he have a cigarette with you? He probably is due one now, right?

• 13:30Speaker 03

  Maybe, but that adolescence is a limited series, so they can only win once for that one series. Whereas we won on series two, so when it comes to series three, I was like, I'm coming merely as a sort of ceremonial piece of the furniture at this point. So then to win again, I hadn't prepared a speech. I didn't know what I was saying . I had no clue.

• 13:49Jessie Ware?

  Maybe you brought out stats like that .

• 13:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, it something just came out of me. And it's because I've been doing, I've set up this commission with the Roundhouse, which is an amazing. Like art, well, you've performed at the Roundhouse before, like art centre meets music venue. Underneath the main stage, there's all these like creative hubs for young people to go and explore creativity, to go and. Start learning how to DJ or rehearsal rooms or start up a radio station, blah, blah. And I've been involved with them since I was a kid. And we've set up a commission to try to lobby the government to look into better ways for young people to access the arts. So I'd sat on this Zoom for this commission and you're hearing people from all over the country who are trying to advocate for better arts accessibility.

• 14:33Speaker 03

  And all these stats were just sort of in my head from, from a week of just being sat there . And then, and then when I won, I was like, oh, my God, you know, all I can really do in this moment is say. This TV show wouldn't exist without the arts, without fringe theatres, without comedy clubs, without arts bursaries. And all this stuff that I benefited from when I started, there was a thing called Ideas Tap, which was a resource for young people where you could apply for little parts of money. Big Boys was funded by something called the BFI Young Audiences Content Fund.

• 15:02Jessie Ware?

  Does that not exist now?

• 15:03Speaker 03

  Doesn't exist. None of it exists. In fact, the week Big Boy Series One came out, they pulled that stream of funding. And so I feel like I've been really lucky, but every time I've got my foot in the door, something's been pulled up and I do think it's particularly bad. And that Edinburgh stat is real. There was a fund to help new artists go to the Edinburgh Fringe. It's been cut by ninety-three percent. And I'm worried that in state schools particularly, it's not even that drama and music is being cut off the syllabus, which it is in some places, but it's being discouraged. And I think if you have that disparity between what people are getting in the private education sector and what kids are, you know, fostering there, like, we've got to also make sure that we are giving arts and drama and musical opportunities to people

• 15:47Speaker 03

  who aren't from those sort of backgrounds. So it all just came out of me.

• 15:51Jessie Ware?

  It was fantastic.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  They'll be asking you to be the next leader of the Labour Party soon.

• 15:56Speaker 03

  I do, I advise.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  It's an opening for a good orator.

• 16:01Jessie Ware?

  Congratulations.

• 16:02Speaker 03

  Well, thank you so much. And it was, yeah, it was lovely.

• 16:04Jessie Ware?

  Um, well, let's bring it back to your childhood.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 16:09Jessie Ware?

  And who was around the dinner table and what was a very memorable dish?

• 16:13Speaker 03

  I really have to say that I was really thinking about this because my mum's an excellent cook. And my, me and my brothers are not. Well, actually, my eldest brother is pretty good, but.

• 16:24Jessie Ware?

  How many are there of you?

• 16:25Speaker 03

  There's, there's three. I'm one of three and they're always so annoyed because in Big Boys, I present my.

• 16:30Jessie Ware?

  I know, only child.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Well, actually, I thought you were till I read that you weren't.

• 16:35Speaker 03

  I know, yeah, I know. But I think it's, I was born on my eldest brother's twenty-first birthday.

• 16:39Jessie Ware?

  Oh, you.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Oh, so you're almost like an only child, yeah.

• 16:43Speaker 03

  I was raised as a kid quite solo, which is why I'm a bit of a spoiled brat. But, um, I would really have to say that the dish that I remember the most is my dad coming in drunk from the pub.

• 16:54Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 16:54Speaker 03

  And making rounds upon rounds of cheese on toast under the grill with loads of Liam Perrin sauce and loads of black pepper.

• 17:02Jessie Ware?

  Delicious.

• 17:03Speaker 03

  Thick cheese and then going into the living room and watching like the Catherine Tate Show. Or Michael McIntyre or Mock the Week or Have I Got News For You. Like, I can really remember watching comedy with him with slabs of bread and cheese.

• 17:16Jessie Ware?

  Sounds great.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, just the best.

• 17:18Jessie Ware?

  How, how old were you when he passed away?

• 17:20Speaker 03

  I had just turned fifteen. So, yeah, it was, it is, yeah, it was too young.

• 17:25Jessie Ware?

  How old was he then?

• 17:26Speaker 03

  He was fifty five.

• 17:27Jessie Ware?

  So he was very young.

• 17:28Speaker 03

  Very young, yeah. And it was quite unexpected. He, he was ill. And then we didn't really know what was wrong with him. And then he was diagnosed with cancer and he died ten days later. It was that rapid. No, none of us were ready. None of us had really spoken about what to do or what the plans were. And I think that's something that I always, you know, try and speak about grief quite a lot because we never got a really a chance beforehand to, to sort of access the scale of it, even just the admin involved in it. But I think, you know, it's sort of what's like inspired all of my work up until maybe like Sunday, you know, I don't think I'm gonna write about grief again.

• 18:11Speaker 03

  I, I was thinking about this on Sunday night, we're obviously like all quite drunk and we're all at the BAFTAs and I've got the whole team, the whole big boys gang, all the cast, the crew. And I was like, this is it. This is the last thing we've had in the calendar. And we started that project in twenty seventeen. And I oddly sort of feel like the last sort of day I've had just in the hotel, in bed, eating room service and um I've just been like quite relieved it's over because I feel like that's such a full creative experience. That's lived, that's been a struggle, that we've managed to fight for, that we've got. And now, and then it's one BAFTA and now it's done. And I'm like, that's such a lovely arc for it.

• 18:51Speaker 03

  But I sort of, yeah, I, I don't think I'm gonna, apart from this tour that I'm about to do where I talk about grief all the time. So, yeah, I need to actually still get my head in the game a little bit.

• 19:00Jessie Ware?

  Which.

• 19:01Speaker 03

  I might take this off.

• 19:02Jessie Ware?

  Of course you can, I'm cold.

• 19:04Speaker 03

  Are you cold?

• 19:04Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, but I don't know what's wrong with me. Let's talk about good grief because this is kind of where you got your big break, right? Ten years ago.

• 19:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I did the very first showing in the Roundhouse's young people's like theatre space, November twenty fourteen.

• 19:22Speaker 03

  And like, that has carried me all the way through. There are stories and lines from that show that are in the final series of Big Boys. And I'm so proud of that because that show, it isn't, you know, I never say this to put down anyone else's work, but it's not Fleabag or Baby Reindeer. It was never produced with like a team. There was not, it's not a proper play by any stretch. It is a sort of quite cart and paste, a bit punk at times, me cobbling together stories and little films, because I studied sort of documentary making. So I filmed all of these things with my nan, who you both loved. My nan, precisely, she was a dinner lady.

• 20:01Speaker 03

  And she and me would speak quite a lot about grief, because I think it happened, like you said, like, I was too young. I was talking about losing a parent and my nan was eighty and talking about losing a child. And that's just not the way it should be. But we really found solace in sort of slagging everyone off for how awkward and weird they would be with us after he died. And those sort of things where people kind of put their foot in it, or, or they just don't want to talk about it and pretend like it doesn't exist.

• 20:33Jessie Ware?

  What was kind of the worst thing that somebody said?

• 20:36Speaker 03

  I can remember, like, I think people used to say to my nan quite a lot, like, oh, you should have gone first. Things like that, where they're just speaking.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Often, often a parent would say that. Yeah, but you don't want somebody else to say it. Someone else say it, no.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  But, you know, I think people, sometimes I remember one of my dad's friends sort of crossing the street to avoid me because, you know, I sort of quite, he didn't know what to say. And this is it. This is why I wanted to write the show.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  Is that, do you think of that as something very British, that people don't know what to say?

• 21:09Speaker 03

  I think it's something very British. I think it's something that we have got better at, actually, since I first started doing that show. I, I do think we've had a much bigger, broader mental health conversation in the last ten years. I think people are slightly more empathetic. But it was really difficult at, at the time. And mine and my nan's way of dealing with it was humour, was laughing. And I think if you can make something funny, you can take the sting out of it. It doesn't mean, it doesn't mean it's like not painful, but you can take the shock, maybe. You can, it suddenly becomes something processable.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  Was your dad funny?

• 21:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, really funny.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:45Speaker 03

  Really funny. He was a black cab driver.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Oh god, he'd have a lot to say.

• 21:49Speaker 03

  He'd have a lot to say about everything, I know.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:52Speaker 03

  Politics, politics a lot. Do you know what, my dad was sort of like, really, like, politically, um, not not loyal to anyone. I think voted every party at every point, at every different stage, which I'm sort of quite liked. I oddly. You know, some people, they come from, I'm a Labour family, or we're a Conservative family. I very much feel like my family are like. Who's there? What are they offering? What's the current thing? And then they kind of go by that. Um, which I find really interesting. And I mean, he, yeah, he would have a lot to say, but he was really. Good, I think. I think he knew that I was gay. I think he knew he had a little.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  No, no, I was too young. But I think he knew he had a lot of weirdo on his hands. So he'd often, yeah. He'd often take me into London in the cab and I'd drive in with him.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Or anywhere.

• 22:45Speaker 03

  Well, no, he'd take me to Camden Market. He'd take me to, you know, he had friends who like. Lived in Highgate in quite nice houses and then friends who lived in Hillingdon in Tower Blocks. Like he would, I got to sort of experience. A lot of different types of London, a lot of different classes, a lot of different places. And I think that equipped me to sort of. I don't know, understand lots of different people's experiences. Um, so I think he.

• 23:15Speaker 03

  I don't know, I think he really like, I think he would love what I've ended up doing. Because I think he sort of, also, and I remembered this the other day, my dad, because he was a black character, you know, and he would run around. People like Harry Enfield, or he once had Tara Palmer Tompkinsen, remember her?

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  She's, she, she got in his cabin, she was wearing a beaded top, and then she shut the door, she like clipped the.

• 23:39Speaker 03

  And my dad was like, I've been cleaning up Tara Palmer Tompkinsen's beads for the last forty five minutes. And but he would often get like comedy producers and he would say to them, and I did not know this, I think my son should write a comedy. He's really funny. Because we used to watch sitcoms religiously, like I never was a, we never really went to the theatre march, but we, I don't think. Went to art galleries or anything like that. These are all things I found in my independent later life, but sitcoms were the thing. And so there's.

• 24:05Jessie Ware?

  What was your favourite?

• 24:07Speaker 03

  My favourite, The vicar of Dibley, hands down.

• 24:09Jessie Ware?

  Oh, really?

• 24:10Speaker 03

  I loved Don Frank so much. It's such a brilliant performance, but all of them. Emma Chambers is, and I loved Ab Fab too. I thought Ab Fab was great.

• 24:19Jessie Ware?

  But there's a kind of gentleness with Vicar of Dibley, isn't there, that maybe like spoke to you?

• 24:24Speaker 03

  I think there's a oddly, that show, if you really take it, it's about the acceptance of outsiders. It's about an insular community having a, a, a woman vicar at a time where that would have felt so radical. And all of them being slight oddballs in and of themselves. That I love. I love. Any show that is driven by people choosing someone who isn't like them, where we have the ability to go. You know what? You're not like me and we see things differently, but I still have compassion for you and I want to be around you and I might learn from you. That to me is at the crux of big boys with, with Jack and Danny and that, that whole group. Yeah. But it's so totally inspired by the vicar of Dibley, I think.

• 25:07Jessie Ware?

  I would like to just go back to your grandma and you. Was, was your grandma part of the rating of the lasagna?

• 25:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 25:15Jessie Ware?

  Okay, can we talk about that?

• 25:17Speaker 03

  Yes, we can.

• 25:17Jessie Ware?

  Have you talked about it too much?

• 25:18Speaker 03

  No, no, I love talking about it. Wasn't like the nun in Catherine Tate? No, that's more like my mum.

• 25:28Speaker 03

  Um, no, my nan was slightly more, I don't know, she was just really funny, very dry at times. You wouldn't expect, expect her to be as funny. My grandad was sort of quite a like play by the rules kind of guy. Whereas my nan was not. She was always naughty, always cheeky, always slipping me a little bit of food when she should and always like. Encouraging like a little streak of imagination. But yeah, she, she, um, well, no, she would have been involved in a lot of the lasagna.

• 25:55Jessie Ware?

  Lasagna.

• 25:55Speaker 03

  So, so, and do you know what? It's interesting because I really think my whole career came from a poem I wrote about lasagnas. I wrote a funny comedy poem when I was eighteen about people keep on coming to the door to drop lasagnas off after my. Dad had died. And sometimes they would just drop it off on the doorstep and run back into their car as if it was like an unwanted, like like an orphan that we were given. And and we had so many lasagnas, just everywhere. We were kind of just going around with a fork going try a bit of too much bechamel. Let's go with that.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  So you were rating them.

• 26:27Speaker 03

  We were rating them. We made a grid on the fridge. And we were like Tracy Brooks from Park Avenue. She's the best. She's still the best. She makes the best apple cakes.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  Why was it so good?

• 26:37Speaker 03

  Hers, I think, was good because it had a bit of kick to it.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  You know, you know, sometimes with a lasagna, I think, I don't know. I don't think I had the language at the time. I couldn't tell you, but it was just, it it felt. You know, you were speaking about this with Lisa Kudrow about how KFC is good, but not because really the chicken. It's because of all the herbs and spices.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Oh, it's great, isn't it?

• 26:55Speaker 03

  A lasagna with herbs and spice, that really done well.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  You have to liven it up.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  Liven it up. It had a kick.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 27:02Speaker 03

  But, yeah, and then some of them were really awful and really watery. And you're like, well, my dad's just died and you've given me a shit lasagna. Come on now.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  I'm sure they didn't intend to.

• 27:11Speaker 03

  No, of course not.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  Funny, when someone dies, they, you, people won't use the word they've died. They have to use like pass or passed on or passed. Why can't they just say they've died?

• 27:24Speaker 03

  It's a very British thing. We have over two hundred euphemisms in the English language for death.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 27:30Speaker 03

  Things like shuffle off this mortal coil, things like brown bread, like we we cannot say it. And for so long, I remember that was a huge part of the first few performances I did of Good Grief were like, talking about how we just can't say dead. And I'd be like, he's dead. To me, that felt comforting.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  That felt like concrete, transparent, the truth.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  And when people sort of dalliance around it, you can't equip yourself with any autonomy when you're pretending like someone isn't here anymore. It's like, no, let's own it. There was another thing I remember writing when I was a kid about like the dinner table and about there being like a an empty plate. And I think we definitely had that for the first few years after it would be like. Who's gonna sit in that chair? That was dad's chair. Let's just not sit in it at all. And let's acknowledge it. And now I think my brother just sits in it and doesn't think twice, which is kind of the beauty of grief is that. You know, the pain gets less and you forget and then new people come in and now there's like nieces and nephews and. You know, you fill the ta- you fill the gap with new people.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  How old would he be now?

• 28:34Speaker 03

  Oh God, I think he would be like seventy three.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  So very young still.

• 28:38Speaker 03

  Very young still, I know.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  Very young.

• 28:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. How old are you darling?

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Seventy four.

• 28:44Speaker 03

  I wouldn't have thought you were a day past fifty six. Not at all, Annie.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 28:48Jessie Ware?

  Well, should I make some food?

• 28:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:51Jessie Ware?

  Whilst you chat about last supper.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  You've not had room service this morning, have you?

• 28:55Speaker 03

  No, I haven't. I've eaten nothing this morning.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Okay, good.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  I've eaten nothing this morning. The room service at the hotel I was staying at though, I had a lovely little kind of. I had a little mezze of different beers.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  Had some lovely wilted kale, some, some um really nice buttermilk chicken tenders because I know you're a fried chicken girl. I love a good chicken tender.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  But I never eat it because I feel too guilty to eat fried chicken.

• 29:19Speaker 03

  Well, do you know what? I think you need to, do you go to New York much?

• 29:22Speaker 02

  We were there last April.

• 29:24Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Where's your favourite New York?

• 29:26Speaker 03

  Brilliant. I feel like all throughout, I was staying in Dumbo last time I went. I was there over Christmas.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Where is Dumbo?

• 29:33Speaker 03

  Dumbo is like.

• 29:34Jessie Ware?

  Brooklyn.

• 29:34Speaker 03

  South Brooklyn.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 29:36Speaker 03

  You can get the ferry there. I went to this amazing Italian place where they did chicken fingers.

• 29:43Jessie Ware?

  What was it called?

• 29:44Speaker 03

  The best. Do you know who are? It's opposite and a more famous Italian place.

• 29:48Jessie Ware?

  Frankies or something.

• 29:49Speaker 03

  It's opposite a place called Giulietta's, but it's not Giulietta's, which is the famous one with the queue outside. It's the one without the queue outside.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  So they did like little chicken.

• 29:58Speaker 03

  Chicken tenders, you get them in a, a kind of in a bowl and then you can dip them in a ranch dressing, a barbecue and you can just pick whatever dressings you want.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  Were they seasoned well?

• 30:06Speaker 03

  They were seasoned supremely well.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Would you have fried chicken on your last meal? Tell me what your last supper would be.

• 30:13Speaker 03

  Oh, my last supper. Okay, I was thinking, I was thinking about this. I. Really, I I quite like the the most simplest starters possible. I think when you're starting out in a mill, you wanna go simplicity is king.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 30:27Speaker 03

  I would maybe go prosciutto, melon.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Lovely.

• 30:31Speaker 03

  Palm honey melon.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Lovely.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  Or just some like really well done like chicken yakitori skewers.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  Oh lovely.

• 30:37Speaker 03

  Something very plain, not too adventurous. You just start with something that like satiates your hunger, but it's nice.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  And just titles your taste buds, yeah.

• 30:44Speaker 03

  Yes. Now, this probably wouldn't go with that as a starter, but my main is always gonna have to be Christmas dinner. If it was my last supper.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  Oh what? Christmas dinner. Okay, yeah. I think Christmas dinner's great.

• 30:57Speaker 03

  It's it's just the best meal. Turkey, birghammon, stu- stuffing's my favourite food. You know, and lovely Andy Oliver.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:06Speaker 03

  Does that, she does a podcast where you pick one dish for Radio Four. I did it maybe like four or five years ago. And we cha- I chose stuffing and she explained to me the history of stuffing, how it was, you know, used for all the scraps and leftovers and. Stuffing to me is.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  Delicious.

• 31:21Speaker 03

  God tier.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Do you have a special stuffing that you like?

• 31:24Speaker 03

  Do you know what my mum.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  Just sage and onion?

• 31:26Speaker 03

  My mum, I I sort of like it all, but my but mum does go, so my mum will do the main shop at Sainsbury's or Tesco. Sometimes Morrison's Asda, we've got a big Asda in Watford on the roundabout.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  You're very lucky.

• 31:38Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  I love Asda.

• 31:39Speaker 03

  I love an Asda.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 31:41Speaker 03

  But then she'll go to M and S Waitrose for the bits. So we might have a posher stuffing than we do anything else.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 31:48Speaker 03

  And I do believe that Marks and Spencer's comes up with the best stuffing around Christmas time.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  We we do, I do one with apricots and walnut.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Or I do cranberry.

• 31:58Speaker 03

  Fruity stuffing is great.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  A fruity stuffing.

• 32:00Speaker 03

  But I quite like having a few different types of stuffing. I also, when I first moved, I I I lived with my mum during Covid.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:09Speaker 03

  And then twenty twenty one, I moved back to London and I live with two Americans. So I became a thank, I never celebrated Thanksgiving before and I think Thanksgiving is brilliant.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  It is brilliant.

• 32:18Speaker 03

  Cheese grits, the sweet potatoes, sort of marshmallow stuff on top, the collard grit, like everything about Thanksgiving. I would, I I would actually quite like to do. Sort of hybrid Christmas, English Christmas dinner, American Thanksgiving dinner kind of fused together.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  There'd be a lot of cranberry going on.

• 32:35Speaker 03

  Be a lot of cranberry going on, but that's never a bad thing for me.

• 32:37Speaker 02

  Never a bad thing.

• 32:38Speaker 03

  And a very good thing in case anyone has a urinary tract infection.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  Does, do you buy extra pigs in blankets?

• 32:47Speaker 03

  Yes, of course.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  You've got to have as many, you've got to eat them all before you even sit down.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  You'd tell me off because I go, I sneak into the kitchen before everything's been stuffed up and I'm always like.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  Me too. They're my favourite thing. They're so salty and delicious and.

• 33:05Speaker 03

  Especially if you like cook them just right. You get, if you hit that sweet spot where everything is like the saltiest it can be, the dream.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  How do you like your eggs?

• 33:15Speaker 03

  Oh my, however you want to give them to me, it's the honest truth.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  You, you just, you just, you just hesitate. Turned?

• 33:21Speaker 03

  I like them turned, yeah. I don't even know what we're having by the way. This is so exciting.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  Be delicious.

• 33:28Speaker 03

  Now I know eggs are involved, I'm really shocked.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  Ah, good.

• 33:31Speaker 03

  This looks up my street in a big way. My favourite meal, if it wasn't a Christmas dinner.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  It would be.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  Full English breakfast.

• 33:40Speaker 02

  Full English.

• 33:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. There's something about ceremonial meals and the comfort and the reliability. When you know what you're getting, but I really enjoy.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

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• 34:34Jessie Ware?

  So this is Honey and Co from their new Honey and Co daily cookbook. Yeah, they're so good. It's fried eggs with goat's cheese and peas done with Aleppo chili, garlic, spring onions and basil.

• 34:49Speaker 03

  That is right up my street. You know, there's a restaurant, there's a cafe in Haggerston called Toe Path. Shout out to Claire Cole, who's one of the chefs there.

• 34:59Jessie Ware?

  Oh, I love Claire.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  Claire's one of the best. And every time I eat there, I'm like, this is top, top tier stuff.

• 35:07Jessie Ware?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:07Speaker 03

  This is amazing.

• 35:08Jessie Ware?

  Um, should we now tell everyone where we really first met?

• 35:13Speaker 03

  We're talking about the university?

• 35:14Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 35:15Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 35:16Jessie Ware?

  I feel like people don't know this story and it's really good.

• 35:20Speaker 03

  When I was at university, I had a job and I was working at the students' union reception. Um, doing like your little admin tasks, often mostly giving people their NUS extra card so they can get a discount in Topshop. Or giving them condoms so that they wouldn't accidentally get each other pregnant. University of Westminster, University of Westminster Students Union, shout out. And at one point, we were booking our freshest ball. And somehow we got Jessie's number.

• 35:50Jessie Ware?

  How the fuck did you get my number?

• 35:52Speaker 03

  I don't know how. And I feel like I, I can't even really remember if you were like on like a conference call or we were all speaking to you. I know there was a girl called Jenny, but we were basically like, we were like kids as well. So we were like, yeah, like we'd love you to come and do this like freshest ball thing. Like it's gonna be really, really fun. Just like play a couple of tracks. We've got you. We give you 10 grand or this. And I can't remember.

• 36:14Jessie Ware?

  I obviously didn't do it.

• 36:15Speaker 03

  You, I don't, I don't think anyone was in from your team was interested in you doing it because at the time, like, we were, we were, we were punching above our weight. We were punching above our weight.

• 36:26Jessie Ware?

  I mean, I just love that someone gave you my number. I don't, uh.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  You're, you had a song at the time which got renamed. It was called 110%.

• 36:34Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 03

  And it got renamed to.

• 36:36Jessie Ware?

  Oh, my God. Mm hmm. God, you know everything.

• 36:39Speaker 03

  Close to you. Uh, it was just one of my favourite songs ever. It's, I would actually say, no, that's not my favourite of your songs, but it's, it's out there for me.

• 36:47Jessie Ware?

  That'd be a bit depressing because that was on my first record.

• 36:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, but that's, that wouldn't be depressing because your first record was brilliant. But no, I would say Begin Again is my favourite, Jessie, well sung. Um, but yeah, we got Miss Dynamite instead.

• 37:00Jessie Ware?

  Oh, well, great booking, great booking, and actually probably got the party started more than I did.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  She really did get the party started, but you know, anyway, if I ever work there again, there's ten grand with your name on it.

• 37:11Jessie Ware?

  Did we finish your last supper?

• 37:13Speaker 02

  No.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  No.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  We've start, we've got starters and main, Christmas dinner. Is there any room for pudding?

• 37:20Speaker 03

  My favourite pudding, which I do think would go well after a Christmas dinner, is a really good chocolate mousse. Very plain, very simple, no, no, no trills or frills, no, no, no, nothing else, just. And I mean, I am that slight cliche of went to Paris once, went to Chez Janu, had the chocolate mousse.

• 37:41Jessie Ware?

  Changed your life.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  And now can't stop thinking about it. I, I'm ultimately underneath it all, have all the sort of culinary integrity of like a TikTok influencer.

• 37:52Speaker 03

  Truly, I'm just like, that is good. And I know why people take a photo of it all the time. In fact, the last time.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  Culinary integrity, I've never heard that expression.

• 38:01Speaker 03

  The last time I went to Chez Janu, they um just brought us the whole pot. They just brought us the whole. Because they were like, we've only got about two or three portions left and there was like a table of five of us, brought the whole thing. We all just sat there with spoons.

• 38:12Jessie Ware?

  Oh my god, amazing.

• 38:13Speaker 03

  Going round.

• 38:14Jessie Ware?

  Do you spend a lot of time in Paris?

• 38:16Speaker 03

  Yes, I really love Paris. Hello, you never tell us. No, no, I really like Paris to write in because the Eurostar is cheap. If you book it in advance, it's quite cheap. Um, there's a lovely little artist's residency hotel where I go, I get quite a cheap rate to go.

• 38:35Jessie Ware?

  Where's that?

• 38:36Speaker 03

  It's just by the, oh my god, I keep, Montparnasse.

• 38:40Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 38:41Speaker 03

  By the big tower, near the Jardin du Luxembourg.

• 38:44Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 38:45Speaker 03

  And I love writing there because I'm away from London, I'm away from distractions. And because in Paris, they're a bit snobby, so they won't just let you get your laptop out anywhere.

• 38:54Jessie Ware?

  Right.

• 38:54Speaker 03

  You have to go to quite specific places to go and write. And there's a cafe. Um, on a barge in the north of Paris, it's called Water and Dreams. And it's like a barge meets library, meets cafe, meets co-working space. And you can just sit there on the water and write all day.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  I'll have to say it's one of my pet hates when you go in a cafe and people are sitting with one coffee and their laptops.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  And you can't even sit down. They, they, well, I'm not one to mention the, right, the cafe they do it. But I just glare at them and they've got, they're all plugged in.

• 39:30Jessie Ware?

  But this is a co-working space, mum.

• 39:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is designed for writers.

• 39:34Jessie Ware?

  Maybe you should live in Paris, mum.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  You should live in Paris because they bet they will not let you.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  I agree with them.

• 39:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Just go home. I mean, I wondered.

• 39:42Jessie Ware?

  I was really enjoying his romantic story about reading, writing by the sun.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Because they can't afford the heating, so they go somewhere where you, you're, you're sitting, working and not paying.

• 39:52Speaker 03

  Maybe, that's something I would have done as a student, to be honest.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  But I just find it annoying. They take phone calls as well.

• 39:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, phone calls, phone calls is a bit much if you're like in the main bit.

• 40:01Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, right.

• 40:02Speaker 03

  But no, Paris, because they don't allow it, you go to certain places. There's a place called Nuage. Which is like a chapel that's been converted into a co-working space.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Great.

• 40:10Speaker 03

  You go in in the morning, you pay twenty three euros. And all day, coffee, food, they come around, they're like.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  He's just saying all his best French words.

• 40:26Speaker 03

  There's a little, um, there's a little dog that runs around. You can just stroke the dog for a bit. Everyone there, you can leave your laptop there, you can go for a walk around the Notre Dame because everyone's co-working, you get little lockers. You, so you pay twenty three euros, which is what, twenty quid, and then you get everything included.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Oh, mate.

• 40:41Speaker 03

  It's great. There's also a lovely.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Do you never work at home, Jack?

• 40:45Speaker 03

  I don't like working at home. The only time I ever write at home is between the hours of eleven P M and four A M.

• 40:53Speaker 03

  I cannot write in the daytime. There's something about when everybody else is doing stuff. I just can't sit and write, I can't focus, which is why I.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  You've got FOMO.

• 41:01Speaker 03

  I get really bad FOMO in any, I get FOMO, so I have to.

• 41:05Speaker 02

  You have to be out and about.

• 41:06Speaker 03

  Country or wait till everyone's asleep.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Has anyone carried the tradition on black cab driver?

• 41:14Speaker 03

  No, but I do have this.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 41:17Speaker 03

  A little black cab tattoo here.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  What happened to his cab?

• 41:21Speaker 03

  I think we just sold it. My mum.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  There was a fortune there, like.

• 41:25Speaker 03

  Like, I wanna just drive it round. But she can't, but you can't.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  She got done?

• 41:29Speaker 03

  Well, no, she didn't get done, but, you know, it's inadvisable to pretend to be a cab driver.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Unless you tell them how much you hate Sadi Khan.

• 41:37Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the only, everybody's universal cab driving.

• 41:42Speaker 03

  But you know what? Every London cab driver hates every single mayor of London, irregardless of.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, they do.

• 41:47Speaker 03

  But like, I can remember my dad being, I hate Ken Livingstone, I hate Boris Johnson, and you're just like, yeah, they're just, anyone that comes in, you're like, oh.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  Jessie's going to do the pud now. Can you cook?

• 41:58Speaker 03

  I cannot cook. And do you know what? I recently.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  What do you mean you can't cook?

• 42:02Speaker 03

  I'm really bad.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  Can you read, Jack?

• 42:04Speaker 03

  I can read.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Then you can cook.

• 42:05Speaker 03

  I know, but do you know, I tried to find some cookery lessons because at the start of the year I was like, I've got to be better than this. Because it is sort of just like, I can steam things, I can roast things relatively well, but, but.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  That's all right.

• 42:19Speaker 03

  I'm quite dyspraxic, I'm quite useless with my hands. I spill everything. I'm genuinely chuffed and thrilled that I haven't made a complete idiot of myself eating that, those eggs on toast because I normally would have. No, but it was great. But I am, yeah, I'm just a bit useless. And anyway, I was looking for these cookery courses and they were all, they were known for beginners. And the ones that were for beginners were for like fourteen year olds.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Oh, no, we went on a, a cookery course, Jessie and I went to the Prue Leith School.

• 42:49Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 42:49Speaker 02

  To learn how to make bread.

• 42:51Speaker 03

  Oh, yes, please. Do you have fun?

• 42:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was great fun, wasn't it? It was really good.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  I would like to, I think what I need to do, my kitchen at my house in London is not very nice. It's one of those old hobs, it takes forever to heat up.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  Find you, find you. Are you renting?

• 43:07Speaker 03

  I'm renting.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  Are you going to buy?

• 43:09Speaker 03

  There. I would love to buy, but you know, Big Boys was Channel Four, I've not made enough money to buy it, but hopefully the next job, let's hope. But that is my dream, is to own somewhere with a kitchen that I'll actually be half decent at cooking. Now, for a split second, I thought that was like mustard, but it's not, it's custard.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  Cause it's got saffron in.

• 43:28Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 43:29Speaker 02

  That's made it very yellow.

• 43:31Speaker 03

  This is really exciting.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  It is very exciting. So if we, if, so if I.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  You're frying apricots?

• 43:38Speaker 02

  That's the normal thing you do with apricots, isn't it?

• 43:40Speaker 03

  Okay, great.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  And what would you have on your last supper, your drink of choice?

• 43:45Speaker 03

  My drink of choice, do you know what? I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go posh.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Okay, go posh.

• 43:51Speaker 03

  I would love a white port and tonic. Have you ever had a white port and tonic?

• 43:57Speaker 02

  I never have.

• 43:59Speaker 03

  White port and tonic. You've got to promise me that you'll have one this summer.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  I will do. Where did you drink that first?

• 44:07Speaker 03

  I drank it in, no, the first time I ever had one, it was in Gordon's Wine Bar, uh, by Bankman. Yeah, really, really fun. And they were like, have a white port and tonic. And I tried it and I absolutely loved it. And now.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  What do they call it? Is it called anything?

• 44:23Speaker 03

  It's called a, a, just a white port, white port and tonic. But it's really, it's quite sweet. Um, but then the tonic gives it a real kind of, it takes, it takes the edge of how sweet it is. But I think they also do it at Peckham, Peckham Levels.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, I've been there. I went to a party there two weeks ago.

• 44:43Jessie Ware?

  When are you going to Peckham?

• 44:44Speaker 02

  I went to Clareham's Eightieth.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  There was an Eightieth at Peckham Levels?

• 44:49Speaker 02

  They, they cordoned off a little bit of it.

• 44:51Speaker 03

  Really?

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, it, it was an old car park though, wasn't it?

• 44:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  It does feel a bit like a car park, yeah.

• 44:58Speaker 03

  Um, they also do it at a lovely pub near me called The Lady Mild May. I would genuinely recommend you have a white port and tonic. I think it's gonna be the, the. The drink of the summer.

• 45:07Jessie Ware?

  Like Brat Summer, it's gonna be white, you're making it.

• 45:09Speaker 03

  It's white port and tonic.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  I think you need to come up with a good name for it. Um.

• 45:13Jessie Ware?

  Why?

• 45:14Speaker 02

  Like Porto Prance.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 45:18Jessie Ware?

  That is good.

• 45:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is good.

• 45:20Jessie Ware?

  So this is Helen Graham, who is a fantastic chef. She had, she used to cook at Bubba La. Have you ever been to Bubba La?

• 45:26Speaker 03

  No, but I've heard of it.

• 45:27Jessie Ware?

  So delicious vegetarian place.

• 45:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:29Jessie Ware?

  She's amazing. She's got a new cookbook out and this is her um apercots, hot apercots with cold saffron custard.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  That sounds like a mystery.

• 45:39Jessie Ware?

  So.

• 45:40Speaker 03

  It's beautiful. It looks beautiful as well.

• 45:42Jessie Ware?

  Oh, my God, this is really good.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Delicious.

• 45:44Jessie Ware?

  Helen, you're really talented. It took two goes at doing the bloody.

• 45:48Speaker 03

  It's the hot and cold thing.

• 45:49Jessie Ware?

  It's the hot and cold.

• 45:50Speaker 03

  Really good. Are you enjoying it, Lenny?

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Delicious, really delicious.

• 45:55Jessie Ware?

  Um.

• 45:55Speaker 03

  I loved that.

• 45:56Jessie Ware?

  Oh, I love that. I could just literally go up.

• 45:58Speaker 03

  Oh. Boom.

• 46:00Jessie Ware?

  Um.

• 46:02Jessie Ware?

  I don't really want you to go.

• 46:04Speaker 03

  Oh, well, that's very sweet.

• 46:05Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 46:05Speaker 03

  I don't really want to go.

• 46:06Jessie Ware?

  Well, then maybe we could do this again sometime. You're such a wonderful guest, Jack.

• 46:10Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you so much for having me.

• 46:12Jessie Ware?

  Come.

• 46:12Speaker 03

  Will you come to the tour?

• 46:13Jessie Ware?

  Yes, can we talk about this now?

• 46:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:15Jessie Ware?

  So the Good Grief that was debuted in Edinburgh ten years ago.

• 46:19Speaker 03

  Ten years ago.

• 46:20Jessie Ware?

  You are returning for your ten year anniversary.

• 46:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  New material.

• 46:24Speaker 03

  So how I'm doing it is I'm gonna do twenty minutes of brand new material.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:30Speaker 03

  Funny stand up.

• 46:32Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 46:32Speaker 03

  Explain the context of the show. Then there's gonna be an interval so everyone can go back to the bar to get another white wine. Then.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Or a Porto, no? Porto and tonic.

• 46:40Speaker 03

  Or a, or a, thank you very much, Porto and tonic. And then um I'm gonna perform the show for the hour in its entirety as it was performed back in twenty fifteen.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 46:50Speaker 03

  Which will be really fun. And it's a.

• 46:53Jessie Ware?

  You get two different, like, you get two shows, two Jack group shows, yeah.

• 46:57Speaker 03

  You get new comedy and then, and then the existing show. And then at the very end, I almost do a little bit like a, so what have we learned? And I sort of take, I do a little bit from the present day as well. That is where I'm sort of outlining the fact that that show was written with all of these arts burseries and all this support and all this help and it has all gone. So it's a little call to arms at the end to say, how can we? I suppose fill the gap of a lot of that funding that's lost. And how can we ensure that young people are able to engage in storytelling and actually make it and and be the story themselves. Cause that, I was really lucky that happened and everything that's happened with big boys. And winning two Paphers and all that lovely, lovely stuff and the stuff I will hopefully do in the future.

• 47:42Speaker 03

  Has only come because I managed to get all of that funding and all of that support. Um, but it is a laugh.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Where do you think you stand on visiting graves? Do you, do, do, does your mum go and visit the grave? I mean, I know people.

• 47:56Jessie Ware?

  Where do you stand on?

• 47:57Speaker 02

  No, no, not stand. What do you think about? It's a dreadful thing to say.

• 48:01Jessie Ware?

  No, but like.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  But I, like Jewish people don't visit graves.

• 48:04Speaker 03

  Right, okay.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Because that, that's, they're, they're not there, but you visit once a year out of respect.

• 48:11Jessie Ware?

  So you do visit graves?

• 48:12Speaker 02

  You only visit once a year.

• 48:13Jessie Ware?

  And then you put a stone on.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  And you put a stone on to show that you've been.

• 48:16Jessie Ware?

  The knock knock.

• 48:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  We've been and that's, we, we respect you. But lots of people go every week and will sit there and talk to the person and um have a conversation. And feel that they can still connect with them.

• 48:30Speaker 03

  I think that's beautiful when they do. It's, it's not for me, but during Covid, when I was back home with my mum. I went and visited my dad's grave every day.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Did you?

• 48:43Speaker 03

  The whole time, because it was that one mandatory walk that we got. And I don't know why, it just sort of felt like really, and I'd never been before, I, I hated it when I was a kid. And he'd first died and people would go up there. And she sort of really quite liked my dad's funeral. Because it was a really beautiful celebration and there was like five hundred, six hundred people there, it was.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  He's buried, not cremated.

• 49:02Speaker 03

  And then he was cremated and then we had a separate funeral for his. For, you know, little cremation, the stone setting and that I hated and I was like, I'm never coming here again. And then during Covid, I went every day. And there was this woman and who's a neighbour from a couple of streets down. Who at the same time as me went every single day to go visit her daughter. And we just sort of became like, we just sort of smiled at each other, we became kind of like little grief friends. I don't know really why I went so often. I think it was also because it's like, my dad's in a lawn cemetery, it's quite beautiful to go to. And there was something about that, that maybe isolation that we all experienced where I was like. I weirdly cannot go and visit my friends, but I actually can go and sit here and just think about stuff and.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  Sort of talk things through.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  Does he have a nice.

• 49:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, he does. It says Free Bird on it, which is his favourite song by Lynyrd Skynyrd, which we have in Big Boys. And, yeah, it's really, really sweet. And now I love going. I don't go all the time. But if I do go, I feel like I have a different relationship with it. I think that's the like. Really important thing that I try to tell people about grief is that it shifts and changes all the time. The stuff that you find unbearably painful at the start. Subsides or changes or then becomes the thing you love, becomes the most celebratory thing. I think that's sort of what Big Boys was about in a way, because.

• 50:26Speaker 03

  Big Boys does look at topics like suicide, which I think is really tricky and really difficult. And I I'd never watched anything where somebody who'd lost someone to suicide was able to sort of. Push past the injustice to still celebrate that person. And that to me is like the the thing that I'm. Most proud of with Big Boys, that I think it is a space where people who've lost someone in that way can go. Oh, I can still celebrate the best times and the good things and the amazing facets of that person without it being. Them being solely defined by their passing. And that's like, I think maybe just from being bereaved a couple of times. I don't know if I'll ever stop grieving and that's sort of okay. I think that's sort of part of it.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  But that's why it's really nice doing that show again from ten years ago. And actually, I think I might do good grief in another ten years' time.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  Do you know?

• 51:19Speaker 03

  I think I might do it every ten years of my life because, you know, there's more people that are gonna pass away in my life. And I think it's more more content. Um, but also I'm quite inspired by. Lisa Kudrow on the comeback.

• 51:36Speaker 03

  Because, you know, grieving is a constant process and. Uh, how I feel about it in another ten years' time might be completely different. I sort of like. Checking in with that. It's not something that kind of comes and goes. It's always sort of with you. And if I can make that funny, which it always has to be, I'm like, my rule is make it funny. Because if something's funny, it becomes less scary and then it becomes sort of accessible. And I do really believe in. Talking about them and not in a morbid way, but I just think it it makes it feel less. Isolatory, if that makes sense. Don't think isolatory is a word, but it is.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  Death is gonna happen to everyone, isn't it?

• 52:19Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 52:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:20Speaker 03

  That's the first line of Big Boys from the pilot. The first episode is, "Statistics show that one in every one people will eventually die."

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:27Speaker 03

  And to me, I'm like, that's almost quite comforting to know in a weird way. Like, you know, make apricots, make hot apricots with cold custard. Because you're gonna die one day, so you might as well.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and have another bowl.

• 52:39Speaker 03

  And have another bowl.

• 52:41Jessie Ware?

  Um, Jack, thanks so much for being on.

• 52:43Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you for having me.

• 52:45Jessie Ware?

  Before we leave you, and it may, you may have already answered this with the cheese and Liam Perrons. But is that a nostalgic taste that can transport you back somewhere, happy or sad?

• 52:54Speaker 03

  Yes, and that is my T-shirt. Scampi Fries takes me to that every pub that I used to go with my dad as a kid. They also did, like, cheese moments.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Are they cold or hot?

• 53:06Speaker 03

  They're cold. They're cold, they're like cold little kind of.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  Well, you get them in a packet, they've got a bite.

• 53:11Speaker 03

  They've got a bite, they've got a pack, they pack a punch.

• 53:14Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, they're so good. You've never had a Scampi Fries?

• 53:16Speaker 02

  I've never even heard of them.

• 53:18Speaker 03

  I am going to send Scampi Fries to your house.

• 53:22Jessie Ware?

  Um, Jack, thank you for being on Table Manners. Good luck with the tour. Can't wait to see what else you produce and I can't wait to watch it, you're brilliant.

• 53:30Speaker 03

  Can I say, I think you two should also do a spin-off.

• 53:33Jessie Ware?

  What's the spin-off?

• 53:34Speaker 03

  I think you should do a spin-off called Tableware.

• 53:37Jessie Ware?

  Oh, what, like Tupperware?

• 53:38Speaker 03

  Your surname.

• 53:39Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 53:40Speaker 03

  But then you tried lots of different types of cutlery, Tupperware, plates, crockery. Let's expand it from the food to the things we have out of the food. It's just a merchandising opportunity.

• 53:51Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you. We, we, we've already thought.

• 53:55Speaker 03

  He makes nice plates.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  We've always, I always thought Tableware was a good brand name.

• 54:00Jessie Ware?

  We also thought table wine could be good too. Do you know what I mean? We thought about it all.

• 54:04Speaker 03

  You could even put an H in there, because then it could almost be like, it's table wine.

• 54:08Jessie Ware?

  Whining.

• 54:09Speaker 03

  Wine you can wine to.

• 54:10Jessie Ware?

  Okay, let's like, let's just brainstorm a bit, okay? Cut them cameras, let's go into the.

• 54:16Speaker 02

  You used to be working for Bob and Haggerty.

• 54:19Jessie Ware?

  You're, you're mad men.

• 54:21Speaker 03

  Could I say, I'm an opportunity.

• 54:38Jessie Ware?

  Jack Rook, just the best guest.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  An absolute delight.

• 54:42Jessie Ware?

  So fun, so interesting, fabulous, loved every second.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  I just think he's got so many stories to tell that he's going to go on forever. I told him I predict he'll be the David Attenborough of comedy.

• 54:57Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 54:57Speaker 02

  You know, still going at a hundred.

• 54:59Jessie Ware?

  Happy birthday, David Attenborough. Loved it, loved the pudding so much.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 55:06Jessie Ware?

  And the eggs were great.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Delicious.

• 55:08Jessie Ware?

  This was like a really easy brunch meal to do for someone. So I'm just saying to you now, people, Honey and Co Daily, great book. And Helen Graham's.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  So is it all vegetarian?

• 55:22Jessie Ware?

  Helen Graham's centrepieces, yeah. Bold, vibrant recipes to put vegetables in the spotlight.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  But do you know what, Jessie? The cover of that book was the colour of your dessert.

• 55:31Jessie Ware?

  Mmm.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  Yellow and orange.

• 55:33Jessie Ware?

  And the custard did set.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  It was delicious.

• 55:37Jessie Ware?

  I got it. Oh my God, I could drink that.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:41Jessie Ware?

  Oh.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  Have you got a lot left over?

• 55:43Jessie Ware?

  Not enough, Lenny.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 55:44Jessie Ware?

  Not enough.

• 55:45Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 55:46Jessie Ware?

  Thank you to Jack for coming on the podcast. You can go and watch Big Boys, three seasons of it on Channel Four. Or you can go and see him on his tour, which starts at Roundhouse and then goes to Edinburgh. Then he does a whole tour and he's amazing. Good grief, celebrating its 10 year anniversary. What are you doing for us today, Mum?

• 56:02Speaker 02

  Going to see if I have to have an operation on my bloody hip.

• 56:05Jessie Ware?

  Oh, well, we can get some more podcasts in.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Shush.

• 56:08Jessie Ware?

  We'll see you next week.