370: THE GAME Is Going On All Around You.

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 370 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening. So if you are listening and you didn't listen to the last podcast number 369, go back and listen to it. This is a continuation of that podcast. We are talking about the games we are playing. The subordinate games that make up various aspects of life and then ultimately the game of life itself.

• 0:31Jocko Willink?

  And just to say this, and we kind of talked about this on the last one. Recognition of the game is a huge part of the battle. Just recognizing that there's a game going on is a huge part of the battle. It's like when people are alcoholics and sort of the, the beginning of solving the problem is admitting, oh, I'm an alcoholic. That's what they say. Or realizing that you've been hustled in a, in pool. Right? Sure. Like, like if you don't know that you're getting hustled. Yeah. They're playing a game with you. You, you, you literally stop getting hustled as soon as you recognize what's happening. A three card, the three card shuffle. You ever seen that? Yeah.

• 1:17Jocko Willink?

  You think you're going to win that game. They're playing a game. They're playing a different game than you are. You're trying to watch that card like an idiot.

• 1:26Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you realize someone's playing you in a relationship. Right? That's a common term. We don't talk about the game, but we talk about getting played. Getting played, yeah. Once you know you're getting played, hopefully you go, oh, okay. Now I understand the game that's happening. I'm losing the game. I'm going to get out of the game. Yeah.

• 1:45Jocko Willink?

  If you don't know there's a game going on, you're just going to lose the game. So that's kind of the, the prime, primary piece of information from the last podcast was to make sure you know you are in a game.

• 2:01Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to go back to David Foster Wallace's commencement speech, which I talked a little bit about on the last podcast. Here's another excerpt.

• 2:11Jocko Willink?

  He says this, "By way of example, let's say it's an average adult day, and you get up in the morning, go to your challenging white collar college graduate job, and you work hard for eight or 10 hours. And at the end of the day, you're tired and somewhat stressed, and all you want to do is go home and have a good supper and maybe unwind for an hour and then hit the sack early because of course you have to get up the next day and do it all again.

• 2:36Jocko Willink?

  But then you remember there's no food at home. You haven't had time to shop this week because of your challenging job. So now after work, you have to get in your car and drive to the supermarket. It's the end of the workday and the traffic is apt to be very bad. So getting to the store takes way longer than it should. And when you finally get there, the supermarket is very crowded because of course it's the time of day when all the other people with jobs also try and squeeze in some grocery shopping. And the store is hideously lit and also infused with soul killing muzak or corporate pop. And it's pretty much the last place you want to be, but you can't just get in and out quickly. You have to wander all over the huge overlit stores, confusing aisles to find the stuff you want.

• 3:18Jocko Willink?

  And you have to maneuver your junky cart through all these other tired hurried people with carts, et cetera, et cetera, cutting stuff out because of the long ceremony here. And eventually you get all your supper supplies, except now it turns out that there aren't enough checkout lanes open, even though it's the end of the day rush. So the checkout line is incredibly long, which is stupid and infuriating. But you can't take your frustration out on the lady, on the frantic lady working the register, who's overworked at a job whose daily tedium and meaninglessness surpasses the imagination of any of us here at a prestigious college. But anyway, you finally get to the checkout line's front and you pay for your food and you get told to have a nice day in a voice that is absolutely the voice of death.

• 4:05Jocko Willink?

  Then you have to take your creepy flimsy plastic bags of groceries in your cart with the one crazy wheel that pulls maddingly to the left, all the way through the crowded, bumpy, littery parking lot, and then you have to drive all the way home through slow, heavy, SUV-intensive rush hour traffic, etc., etc. Everyone has done this, of course, but it hasn't been part of your graduate's actual life routine, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. But it will be. And many more dreary, annoying, seemingly meaningless routines besides. But that is not the point.

• 4:46Jocko Willink?

  The point is that petty, frustrating crap like this is exactly where the work of choosing is gonna come in. Because the traffic jams and crowded aisles and long checkout lines give me time to think. And if I don't make a conscious decision about how to think and what to pay attention to, I'm gonna be pissed and miserable every time I have to shop. Because my natural default setting is the certainty that situations like this are really all about me. About my hungerness, and my fatigue, and my desire to just get home.

• 5:28Jocko Willink?

  And it's going to seem for all the world like everybody else is just in my way. And who are all these people in my way? And look at how repulsive most of them are, and how stupid and cow-like and dead-eyed and non-human they seem in the checkout line, or at how annoying and rude it is that people are talking loudly on cellphones in the middle of the line. And look at how deeply and personally unfair this is. Or, of course, if I'm in a more socially conscious liberal arts form of my default setting, I can spend in the end-of-the-day traffic being disgusted by all the huge, stupid,

• 6:08Jocko Willink?

  lane-blocking SUVs and Hummers and V12 pickup trucks burning their wasteful, selfish 40-gallon tanks of gas, and I can dwell on the fact that the patriotic or religious bumper stickers always seem to be on the biggest, most disgustingly selfish vehicles driven by the ugliest. This is the, an example of how not to think.

• 6:31Jocko Willink?

  Most disgustingly selfish vehicles driven by the ugliest, most inconsiderate aggressive drivers. And I can think about how our children's children will despise us for wasting all the future's fuel and probably screwing up the climate and how spoiled and stupid and selfish and disgusting we all are and how modern consumer society just sucks. And so forth and so on, you get the idea.

• 6:55Jocko Willink?

  If I choose to think this way in a store and on the freeway, fine, lots of us do. Except, thinking this way tends to be so easy and automatic that it doesn't have a choice.

• 7:11Jocko Willink?

  It is my natural default setting. It's the automatic way that I experience boring, frustrating, crowded parts of adult life when I'm operating on the automatic unconscious belief that I am the center of the world and that my immediate needs and feelings are what should determine the world's priorities.

• 7:33Jocko Willink?

  The thing is, of course, there are two, there are totally different ways to think about these kinds of situations. In this traffic, all these vehicles stopped and idling in my way. It's not impossible that some of these people in these SUVs have been in horrible auto accidents in the past and now find driving so terrifying that their therapist has all but ordered them to get huge, heavy SUV so they can feel safe enough to drive. Or that the Hummer that just cut me off is maybe being driven by a father whose little child is hurt or sick in the seat next to him and he's trying to get his kid to a hospital and he's in a bigger, more legitimate hurry than I am. It is actually I who am in his way.

• 8:14Jocko Willink?

  Or I can choose to force myself to consider the likelihood that everyone else in the supermarket checkout line is just as bored and frustrated as I am. And that some of these people probably have harder, more tedious and more painful lives than I do.

• 8:30Jocko Willink?

  Again, please don't think that I am giving you moral advice or that I'm saying you are supposed to think this way or that anybody expects you to just automatically do it because it's hard. It takes will and effort. And if you are like me, some days you won't be able to do it or you just flat out won't want to.

• 8:50Jocko Willink?

  But most days,

• 8:53Jocko Willink?

  if you're aware enough to give yourself a choice, you can choose to look differently at this fat, dead-eyed, over-made-up lady who just screamed at her kid in the checkout line. Maybe she's not unusually like this. Maybe she's not usually like this. Maybe she's been up three straight nights holding the hand of a husband who is dying of bone cancer. Or maybe this very lady is the low-wage clerk at the motor vehicle department who just yesterday helped your spouse resolve a horrific, infuriating red tape problem through some small act of bureaucratic kindness. Of course, none of this is likely, but it's also not impossible. It just depends on what you want to consider.

• 9:37Jocko Willink?

  If you're automatically sure that you know what reality is and you are operating on your default setting, then you, like me, probably won't consider possibilities that aren't annoying and miserable.

• 9:53Jocko Willink?

  But if you really learn how to pay attention, then you will know there are other options. It will actually be within your power to experience a crowded, hot, slow, consumer hell-type situation as not only meaningful, but sacred, on fire with the same force that made the stars: love, fellowship, the mystical oneness of all things, deep down. Not that that mystical stuff is necessarily true. The only thing that's capital T true is that you get to decide how you're gonna try to see it.

• 10:37Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 10:41Jocko Willink?

  The reason that I wanted to go back to this speech is because it points out the fact

• 10:51Jocko Willink?

  that it's very easy, it's extremely easy to go through life on autopilot. Right to actually go through life, seeing things through miserable colored uh lenses, right? You know, you get the rose colored lenses, it's really easy to go through life with just seeing everything as miserable. Just like it's that, that's easy.

• 11:16Jocko Willink?

  We actually get to choose the way we look at things. Sometimes we don't even realize that we have a choice. We get numb down and we get dumbed down and I think that's why oftentimes people don't realize that they're in a game. They don't see it. So they end up just simply following along and just existing in the game without noticing that it's being played.

• 11:41Jocko Willink?

  Now, there's a couple of things to think about as we continue this discussion about the games and playing games and the game that we're in. With games, in any game, well, in most games, there's chances, there's a level of luck involved. Good luck, bad luck, right? I mean, it happens on a football field. You get a bad bounce, you get a good bounce. That can be win or lose the game.

• 12:09Jocko Willink?

  That in wrestling, they literally toss a coin in wrestling. Who's gonna get top position, who's gonna get bottom position? If you're a great top player, you could, and you're bad at bottom player, you can literally win or lose the game on a coin toss.

• 12:25Jocko Willink?

  So there's, there's a certain aspect, a certain element of luck in any game. And there's a certain aspect of luck in life, right? Oh, it's really nice to be born into a good family with hea- with health and money and connections and stability. That's, that's great, right?

• 12:54Jocko Willink?

  And there's, there's a certain amount of skill that can, you can be lucky enough to have. Yeah. You want to be a basketball player? It's really nice when you're 6'9". Right? Or if you want to go into academics and you have a photographic memory, that's, you're pretty lucky. And not everyone gets that gift. If you're in the business world and you have a good knack for numbers, those are, those are nice things to have. So there's luck and there's some skill that you are,

• 13:27Jocko Willink?

  that you, you might just have through that luck.

• 13:33Jocko Willink?

  But,

• 13:35Jocko Willink?

  and this is sort of lends to what we talked about in the last podcast.

• 13:40Jocko Willink?

  It's your play

• 13:43Jocko Willink?

  that has the most impact in dictating success or failure.

• 13:48Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's the way, it's how you play the game that counts.

• 13:57Jocko Willink?

  Now, we need to think about this.

• 14:02Jocko Willink?

  Because if you were 6'9", probably be a pretty good, pretty good decision to get into basketball. There's no guarantee, but you, you at least, you're kind of going to be on, on the map a little bit. I mean, in high school, you're going to be a dominant player. You're 6'9", you're going to be a dominant player.

• 14:19Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 14:21Jocko Willink?

  you gotta kind of make a decision about what game you're going to play.

• 14:28Jocko Willink?

  And that, that starts to play a role in whether you're going to win or lose the game. Because if you're 6'9" and you decide to become a gymnast,

• 14:41Jocko Willink?

  you're going to have issues, right?

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 14:44Jocko Willink?

  You're going to have issues. If you're 5'2", 5'3",

• 14:50Jocko Willink?

  And you decide you're gonna play basketball, you're probably gonna have some issues. Now, it can be done.

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  Right? Mugsy Bogues, 5'3". I think he's 5'3". I think he's 5'3". You know who Mugsy Bogues is?

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:03Jocko Willink?

  5'3",

• 15:06Jocko Willink?

  playing in the NBA.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 15:08Jocko Willink?

  And like, playing in the NBA. He wasn't sitting on a bench.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:12Jocko Willink?

  He's playing in the NBA.

• 15:15Jocko Willink?

  You know, he didn't get, he didn't get that gift, but what matters is how he played.

• 15:22Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 15:25Jocko Willink?

  we have to pay attention to that, that you have a choice as to what game you're gonna play.

• 15:32Jocko Willink?

  What games you're going to play. You have a choice into how you're gonna keep score. You have a choice in what means winning and what means losing.

• 15:44Jocko Willink?

  So, when it comes to life, what game are we playing, what rules?

• 15:53Jocko Willink?

  And how do we win?

• 15:55Jocko Willink?

  We're talking about the broad, the supreme game of life. You could probably start with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? So this guy is, he, this guy Maslow, Abraham Maslow, born in Brooklyn, 1908, died in 1970, he's a psychologist, and he made up this motivational hierarchy in psychology. And this was his biggest contribution.

• 16:24Jocko Willink?

  And so, the, the base of the pyramid, the lowest thing, but the, the most important thing that you have to get out of the gate, is your physiological needs, obviously. Air, water, food, shelter, sleep, clothing, reproduction, like, these are the base needs that you have.

• 16:43Jocko Willink?

  Those are your physiological needs. Above that, in his, according to his hierarchy is safety. So, personal security, like, how can you make sure that you're safe? And they include in this, like, employment and resources and health and property. All those things are sort of wrapped up in safety. The next one up is love and belonging. You know, I don't know, I like to say the L word on the podcast, but love and belonging. This is friendship, this is intimacy, this is family, this is a sense of connection. You got esteem is the next one. Which is respect and status and recognition and strength and freedom. And then you get self-actualization.

• 17:27Jocko Willink?

  Which is the desire for a human to maximize their potential. So, some of the characteristics of that are how you perceive reality. That you can, that someone that's self-actualized can perceive reality the way it is. Now, we've talked about this before, like, everyone's perception of reality is different. So, we don't really, how we judge in that one, not really 100% sure. These people that self, have self-actualized, actualized, they can accept themselves for what they really are.

• 18:09Jocko Willink?

  Which, again, that's an interesting one. Because if you are mugsy-bugs and you're like, well, I just have to deal with the fact that I'm 5'3" and I'll never... No, actually, he didn't accept it. Um, accept other people for who they are. They're not self-centered, they're creative, they're resistant to conformity. They appreciate basic life experience. So, that's this, that's this hierarchy of needs. Right? You got your physiological needs, your safety. I get it. We gotta start with that. Food, water, shelter, sure, we get that. If you don't have that, you're, there's not much else going on.

• 18:53Jocko Willink?

  Safety, sure, we get that. If you're under constant fear, if you're the, if you're the mouse trapped with the cat, that's not good. You gotta figure it out. And then you get, you get to this one, belonging.

• 19:08Jocko Willink?

  Not everyone has this deep desire to belong. Like, I get it, it's a pretty common.

• 19:14Jocko Willink?

  But some people prefer to be alone. I mean, there's such a thing as a hermit, right? And, and I think different people would prioritize this differently.

• 19:25Jocko Willink?

  I get that you could say, for most people, we want to have some social belonging.

• 19:33Jocko Willink?

  But I think this varies a lot.

• 19:37Jocko Willink?

  That being said, I think it's a strong, I think in most people, it is a pretty strong thing. You know, that's why we have tribes, that's why we have gangs, that's why we have freaking Democrats and Republicans. That's why we have, uh, sports teams that people wear the, I mean, can you imagine how much? It's billions of dollars that sports teams makes from the sales of merchandise so you can wear your, your gang's insignia on your jersey.

• 20:06Jocko Willink?

  So that clearly indicates, you don't spend that kind of money if you don't want some kind of sense of belonging. So, so this is, I'm just saying, not everyone feels this way. But it's definitely one of those things that I can understand. Esteem. Now, we get a healthy, a healthy ideal. Like you're talking about, oh, I want to be esteemed, I have good self-esteem. At what point does this start turning into ego, right? My status. That's what my concern is. Like, why is that? Or recognition, I really want to be recognized. That's really, that's ego, man. And I'm not saying it's, it's there for sure. If you can, I would recommend you break, break away from that ego, ego, ego anchor.

• 20:51Jocko Willink?

  That's pulling you into status and pulling you into recognition.

• 20:58Jocko Willink?

  And then you get this idea of self actualization. Again, to me, this is like an ideal. You've got someone that's like focused on becoming who they are, right?

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:08Jocko Willink?

  Am I being too, am I being too much?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:09Jocko Willink?

  Too hard in the paint?

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Uh, well, yes.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  And it kind of was the, the status ego esteem part. That's where you begun your journey into too hard in the paint. So the, the, the status and ego recognition and stuff. Then again, I don't know, I could be wrong. I don't, I can't read Maslow's mind, but this is what it seems like. It's like an inner need. Now, if you need this above and beyond normal stuff, then it starts to mutate, right? Like, just like how you say, like a healthy ego.

• 21:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Versus an inflated ego where the inflated ego is like bad. You start, you know, the dichotomy, as one might say. So like the, um, like, uh, we'll say recognition, for example, right? It's not to say that like someone's pining and yearning very, very hard for the recognition. It's just that when you get recognition for something, you did good. And it's going to be hard to find somebody who just doesn't care and doesn't make them feel good.

• 22:08Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  So there, that isn't indicated. There is some need in there, you know? Not to say they're gonna break their back or throw their mom under the bus for that recognition. That's like mutated, you know?

• 22:18Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say, not saying that they wouldn't do that, because certain people have done that.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And, and I would imagine this kind of goes for everything where, yeah, it can kind of go too far or whatever. But generally speaking, we're talking about the normal level of, hey, I want to be, I want to feel belonging. I want to feel esteemed. I want to feel, uh, recognized and appreciated. And, you know, all these things that we, normal people, we like to feel.

• 22:43Jocko Willink?

  So what I'm saying is, you have to ask yourself if that's the game you're gonna play.

• 22:50Jocko Willink?

  That is that the game you're gonna play? You want recognition? Okay. You want status? Okay. So that's, that you want this quote unquote self actualization? What does that actually mean? That can mean a lot of different things to. Look, there's people that look, self actualization is becoming a Buddhist monk in Thailand, right?

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:12Jocko Willink?

  There's some people, self actualization is becoming, you know, the jujitsu champion.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:17Jocko Willink?

  There's some, even going down the line.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:19Jocko Willink?

  So that, that's a, that's a real vague term.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  I'm sure some psychologist is gonna chime in from the

• 23:30Jocko Willink?

  Cheap seats.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  It's very possible. And if he does, he's probably gonna say what I'm saying where it's like,

• 23:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Think of it in terms of like

• 23:38Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of ego.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Extreme terms. Think of it in normal terms, you know, like you want food. Oh, well, this guy's centering his whole life over pursuing food. No, no, no, no, no. That's not what we're saying. We're saying, you know.

• 23:52Jocko Willink?

  So it's an ideal. Each one of these, if we view them as an ideal, they're somewhat more acceptable. But they are games. And we, the last podcast, we talked about these, some of these specific games. We talked about work. We talked about health and fitness. We talked about relationships. We talked about life. You start talking about legacy a little bit. And those are sensible pursuits for most people after water, shelter, food and safety. In my opinion. Work, like good job, occupation, health and fitness. Yes. Good relationships. Yes. Maybe the relationships that that's in belonging, right? Maybe the work goes into esteem of recognition and status.

• 24:35Jocko Willink?

  So I'm just trying to line these up and understand what I think with what some a little bit more, you know, academic version of this is.

• 24:45Jocko Willink?

  But when we talk about these, when we talk about esteem, when we talk about job, and we talk about life, we talk about recognition.

• 24:57Jocko Willink?

  You could put these into into various games with various reward systems, with various ways of winning. And a real obvious one is money.

• 25:09Jocko Willink?

  A lot of people, they're playing the game of trying to gather up money.

• 25:16Jocko Willink?

  And I think really money is a little bit of a substitute for freedom, right? It's supposed to be that if you have more money, you eventually get freedom. And there's the whole idea that, you know, someone is a ski bum. They don't have any money. They work, you know, up on the mountain. They're a liftie up on the mountain. And they gotta work four hours in the morning every day, but they're skiing every day. So they, even though they have money, they're kind of doing what they, meanwhile, there's another guy that's working eighty hour weeks. Down in, you know, down in the city. And he busts his ass so he can go up and ski for those six days vacation.

• 26:01Jocko Willink?

  So you're supposed to be getting freedom from money. Doesn't always work out that way. Pursuit of money can actually end up being sort of an addiction as well. Where now that's what it becomes your master.

• 26:18Jocko Willink?

  And, and listen, I've known people that they love that game. They literally love making money, like deals and they love it. And every time they make money, it's, it's incredibly rewarding to them.

• 26:38Jocko Willink?

  If they're lucky, they're good at that game. And, and I've got friends that are really good at making a lot of money. And they're good at it and they, you know, you, you ever wonder, oh, how many millions of dollars do you need? Right? People like, oh, more, but they, they are, hey, they got enough money to do whatever they want. You know what they want to do? They want to get more money because that's the game that they're playing and they love that game.

• 27:05Jocko Willink?

  And some people want to play that game and they're not good at it. They're not good at making money and they're not going to be happy. So.

• 27:20Jocko Willink?

  That's terrible because you get someone that's not really good at making money and they play in that game and they don't win and they're not going to be happy. So you gotta be careful when it comes to the money making game.

• 27:35Jocko Willink?

  Are you good at it? We talked about last time, are you in the, are you playing the game with money? That's going to make you a lot of money. Cause if you're working, you know, 80, 90, a hundred hours a week. In the wrong game, you're not making any money. You know, you make $52,000 a year, working 80 hour week. You're a hard worker, you're smart, but it's just not getting you there. You gotta be playing a different game. Now. The thing, the weird thing about, so this is one example, right? It's a common example, people are playing the game for money, but there's all kinds, there's people that make.

• 28:15Jocko Willink?

  All kinds of stuff into their game, like what they're into, right? And it's sort of ecosystems, right? You could be into jiu jitsu, you want that to be, that's what you're doing. To you or a basketball player or academia, right? People pursue a life in academia, they want to win that game. They want to get the most prestigious college, they want to get the most prestigious, they want to write the prestigious paper that gets published in the prestigious, uh, what do they call that? Journal.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, hell yeah.

• 28:42Jocko Willink?

  There's people that, the game that they're playing is cars. Right, getting cool cars. Or being in the military, I always got to bring that one up, I was in the military, I was playing that game. I was in that game. You're trying to get, you know, get the right job, work in the right place. You know, I want to be a SEAL.

• 29:06Jocko Willink?

  People are into chess, people are into whim, like you name it. And there's someone that's gonna make that a huge part of the game that they're playing.

• 29:19Jocko Willink?

  Can do this with anything, and actually, you know, in the book Final Spin.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 29:23Jocko Willink?

  The, that's sort of the character of Artie, the cleaner, who's totally into washing machines and dryers and folding laundry and stuff like that. That's sort of a, a statement about people that are just into random things. And that's the main game that they're playing in their life.

• 29:44Jocko Willink?

  Here's what's kinda good about some of those games. Is that they're defined.

• 29:52Jocko Willink?

  Right, so you wanna be a jujitsu champion? Okay. Here's what you do. Here's, you train, you compete, if you wanna get to the pinnacle, you learn these moves, you cut weight, you get to this championship, you win. That's defined, what you do, academia, right? Same thing. Like, oh, you wanna be, you wanna be a respected academic. Go to this school, go to this school, go to this school, get this degree, get this degree, this degree, get, write your paper. For the journal, right? Do those things, and eventually you're at the apex, or you're at least in the top percent of this academic group. Military is really defined. Oh, you're gonna go in, you're gonna get this job, you're gonna do this job, you're gonna promote.

• 30:38Jocko Willink?

  So. They tell you what the game is. They tell you how to compete, and they tell you what winning is.

• 30:49Jocko Willink?

  So, in some respects, those games kinda have something cool to them. They're defined. What's bad about some of those games?

• 30:59Jocko Willink?

  Is they're not as all encompassing. As people think, so people get wrapped around being the best. Jujitsu player, the best basketball player, the best. Acad, best in academia, the best in the military. Happens a lot with the military, right? We see that, the person's doing the military thing, and then all of a sudden their career's over.

• 31:21Jocko Willink?

  Like, hey, you're a general or an admiral in the military. Let's say you're a four star admiral or a three star general. Bro, you are kind of a king. Right? You're kind of a king. You have a chauffeur, your people vehicles driving you around, you get off the plane, there's people waiting for you, they set their whole schedule around you. You got, you got billions of dollars at play, like with fuel for ships and planes and, oh, hey, I wanna take this plane over here, you can do it.

• 31:55Jocko Willink?

  You're sort of this incredibly empowered person.

• 32:01Jocko Willink?

  And then one day you retire.

• 32:04Jocko Willink?

  And all of a sudden, all that stuff is gone. Now, look, you're probably going to go get a job at some military company and fuel that military industrial complex. But even then, even then, you're just another, at that point, you're another admiral. You're another, they got, they got 28 admirals. They got 47 generals. So all of a sudden, you're just a person again. Or you're in the SEAL teams, or you're in force recon, or you're in Marsoc, or you're a Green Beret. And that's, hey, man, you walk in, you're an army dude, you're an army, you're a Green Beret, and you walk into a, you know, a conventional army battalion, all of a sudden, people are giving you respect.

• 32:44Jocko Willink?

  Once you get out, whatever.

• 32:49Jocko Willink?

  You're jujitsu, or you're a fighter, UFC fighter.

• 32:56Jocko Willink?

  You know, what happens when you're done?

• 32:59Jocko Willink?

  What are you doing? You were a champion. Or you were a contender. Now, all of a sudden, you look around, what do you have? You've got, people are doing better now in the UFC, but 10 years ago, even five years ago, I guess, 10 years ago, if you were the champion of the world.

• 33:19Jocko Willink?

  And then you couldn't fight anymore for whatever reason, got too old, or you got beat up too much, or you, you know, you were just done, you got injured. What do you have?

• 33:29Jocko Willink?

  Those guys literally don't have any money. There's, there's nothing. So all of a sudden, you look up from one of those games, those types of games that we're talking about, you look up from that game, and all of a sudden, you don't have anything. You don't have anything. You won the game. You won the game.

• 33:49Jocko Willink?

  You know, I was talking with a very senior flag officer, I'm not going to narrow it down between the services, but Admiral General type with multiple stars on their collar.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Is that what flag officer?

• 34:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because they have their own flag that flies, again, it's like, you know, you show up, you're a flag officer, they fly a flag for you, one star, two star, three star flag gets flown.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Damn, okay.

• 34:17Jocko Willink?

  But he was telling me about another flag officer that he had spoken to. And the other flag officer was even more senior to him.

• 34:28Jocko Willink?

  And that senior flag officer retired and the junior flag officer was like, oh, you know, how's retirement going? You know, do you miss the Navy? And he goes, like I said, it was the Navy. But yeah, it was the Navy. He goes, uh, do you miss the, do you miss the Navy? And he's like, that's all bullshit. I was like, damn, a very senior person, not he wasn't in the SEAL teams, but a very senior person saying that his career, we'd spent, you know, what is it 25, 30, maybe even over 30 years. That's all bullshit. But when this is, this is, he was in the game, knew he was in the game, but thought that that was the supreme game and it wasn't. And when he got

• 35:09Jocko Willink?

  out, he looked around and said, damn, I was playing this game over here. I was like the most dominant freaking kickball player on the school field. And I was the champion and people had to give me their, their cookies at lunch because I beat them. And then all of a sudden, he looks like gets like leaves the school field and realized there's major league baseball. Right? Or he just wasn't, it's just a little tiny game. So we as people need to be cognizant of the fact and recognize the game that we're, that we're focused on and make sure that that

• 35:51Jocko Willink?

  game is what we want it to be. Make sure that it's equivalent for the effort that we're putting into it. And look, there's some people, they get out of the army, they get out of the Navy, they get out of the Marine Corps, and they're, they're totally stoked. They're like, oh yeah, I played that game. It was awesome. I loved it. I'm retired now. I'm good with it. I'm glad I invested all that time and effort into that game because I loved it. I feel that way. Like I don't feel, I got out of the SEAL teams. I was like, damn, that was freaking awesome. That was awesome. Loved every second of it.

• 36:34Jocko Willink?

  If you don't pay attention, you might be putting your time and effort into a game that's not as important as you think it is. So be careful of that. Can see this with social media as well, right? Like, people think that social media matters in a big way.

• 36:58Jocko Willink?

  And it's like, oh, actually, you know, actually, you could go off social media and okay, sure, someone might be like, oh, my gosh, oh, what happened? Oh, actually, they wouldn't say, oh, my gosh, no, they'd be like, oh, I noticed you were on social media. Oh, yeah, I canceled my account. I left. I was taking too much time. It wouldn't be like, oh, my gosh, are you, oh, is every, you know, people like, oh, probably aren't around.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's probably only a handful of people that would notice, to be honest with you, for most of us.

• 37:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. Be like, oh, whatever. And, and the same thing, the likes and the follows and the comments and the subscribers and all that stuff. It's like, oh, whatever. Well, it doesn't really matter. Not that big of a deal. But if you think that's a big deal, and something happens with it, that's a problem. That's a problem. So, when you're investing a lot into a game, make sure that it's the right game.

• 37:55Jocko Willink?

  And if this game really matters.

• 38:01Jocko Willink?

  And then figure out if you should be actually playing this game or not. Or how long are you going to play it for? What are you going to invest in it? You can play a different game. Maybe you can pursue what you truly want to pursue.

• 38:16Jocko Willink?

  And what we have to be careful of.

• 38:22Jocko Willink?

  When you start asking these questions.

• 38:27Jocko Willink?

  You can't lie to yourself.

• 38:31Jocko Willink?

  Because this is where, this is where real problems begin. So I got, I was in, a few years ago, it was 2020, because it was a Jaco Live event, it was in New York.

• 38:45Jocko Willink?

  And a guy asked a question, you know, um, he's, hey, the guy's fired up. He says, hey, you know, I got a good job. I make really good money. I have a happy family. I got a wife and two kids, 2.5 kids, whatever it was. You know, so he had a good life, he's explaining. He said, you know, I just can't find the motivation to get up in the morning and do more.

• 39:09Jocko Willink?

  And as I thought through this,

• 39:13Jocko Willink?

  I told him, he

• 39:17Jocko Willink?

  is very, well, the reason he's asking this question is because he's lying to himself. And he's lying to himself, he's lying to himself in one of two ways. The first way that he could be lying to himself is he's lying to himself that he wants to do more. That's a lie. Like, I really want to get up and I want to do more. There's a chance that that's a lie.

• 39:44Jocko Willink?

  Because if it's really there, when you feel that lack of achievement, when you feel that you could do more, when you know you're not reaching your potential, that eats you up. You don't need to find motivation. Motivation finds you. You can't sleep because you want to do more.

• 40:04Jocko Willink?

  So, there's a chance that this guy's lying to himself about the fact that he wants to do more. And he's actually content. The other lie that he could tell, could be telling, is that he's, when he says he's happy and he has a good job and he has great money and he has a happy family, there's a chance that.

• 40:26Jocko Willink?

  That doesn't really exist. There's a chance that

• 40:31Jocko Willink?

  that if all that stuff was good to go, he wouldn't really feel the need to want to do more. So he's looking at it probably, "Oh hey, I'm totally good to go." No, you're not. So tell the truth about that. Be like, "You know what? I'm making good money, but I want to make more money. I want to set my kids up for life. I want to take better care of my wife. I want to be able to spend, I want to be able to get a vacation." Whatever those things are, tell the truth. And if you tell the truth about those things, you go, "You know what? If I want to get another home, if I want to get a vacation home, I need to work, I need to bust my ass. I need to break out. I need to get up early. I need to do more stuff."

• 41:06Jocko Willink?

  And listen, there's some people that are totally happy and content with the rents covered, the car payments handled, the Netflix account is paid off, right? We're good.

• 41:22Jocko Willink?

  God's not supposed to elicit a hell yeah from you. But there's people like this. Then there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that. If that's where you're at and you're like, "Hey, look, I got a rent, got a cool place. I got, you know, I got, I got my Netflix covered. I got, um, you know, I got a cool car. We're all good. Got a nice girlfriend. We're all good."

• 41:44Jocko Willink?

  There's people that legitimately are content with that. There's also people that say we're all good and they're not. They're lying to themselves.

• 41:53Jocko Willink?

  So don't lie to yourself.

• 41:56Jocko Willink?

  And in this case, that I was talking to this guy from New York, most likely the lie is contentment. Most likely, he's not as happy as he wants to be. Most likely, he has unreached potential. That's a serious issue for a lot of people. And the older you get, the stronger that grows.

• 42:17Jocko Willink?

  Right? When you look at yourself in the mirror and you, you know, time has passed, that you wasted, that starts to eat at you. That can start to eat at you. And so here's what I told this guy. I said, "Listen, discipline that you're looking for, that motivation, that discipline that you're looking for, discipline is rooted in the truth we tell ourselves."

• 42:36Jocko Willink?

  Discipline is rooted in the truth that we tell ourselves. And this is, a couple of weeks later, I was doing a gig with JP, JP Denell. And I told, you know, we were having a discussion about where he was at. And I told him the same thing. Discipline is rooted in the truth we tell ourselves. If you tell yourself the truth, you'll find discipline.

• 42:59Jocko Willink?

  And actually, if you tell yourself the truth, most likely, discipline will find you.

• 43:04Jocko Willink?

  So do not lie to yourself.

• 43:09Jocko Willink?

  Do not lie to yourself. And believe it or not, we tend to do that. We tend to just say, I'm actually pretty happy.

• 43:18Jocko Willink?

  I'm actually pretty happy. We tend to tell ourselves

• 43:23Jocko Willink?

  a lie.

• 43:26Jocko Willink?

  Either that, and your lie could be, I want more and I want to do more. That could be a lie. You could be content with where you're at. Or your lie is that I'm happy. And by the way, if you want more, go freaking get it. And if you're happy, cool, enjoy it. If you get, if you pull that truth out of yourself, and you know what? I'm freaking stoked. I got a, I got a house, I got a girlfriend, I got Netflix. I'm good. If that's where you get, cool, enjoy it.

• 43:57Jocko Willink?

  But don't lie to yourself. And here's what you gotta watch out for.

• 44:02Jocko Willink?

  People lie

• 44:06Jocko Willink?

  about the hard games.

• 44:10Jocko Willink?

  People lie about the hard games. People lie about, you know, oh, I don't really care about money. It's freaking hard to make money. And so people lie about it. Or, you know, I don't really, I don't want to, I don't want to spend my whole life working. I don't care how big I am, I don't care how strong I am. It's a lie. Not in all cases, but in a lot of cases.

• 44:35Jocko Willink?

  Um, I don't really care about having, I don't want some big house. Then you just gotta take care of it. Okay. That could be a lie. Put your lie detector on. If the goal that you're talking about, you don't care about, is big and takes hard work, put your lie detector on it and make sure you're not lying to yourself.

• 44:55Jocko Willink?

  If you don't care, if you truly don't care, that's cool. That's fine.

• 45:00Jocko Willink?

  But if you do care, don't lie to yourself.

• 45:05Jocko Willink?

  Now, you might have to put some realistic goals on yourself.

• 45:09Jocko Willink?

  Right? You might have to be like, okay, I'm not happy with where I'm at. This is what I want. You know, I want a freaking mansion. Or I want, I want a, I want a, a house on beachfront Malibu. 20 mil, by the way. That might not be a realistic goal for you. But if you're like, well, you know, I, I don't really care about that. So I'm good with my apartment over here. Good renting my apartment over here. If that's really, if you really like, look at your life and you look at your game and you look at your plan and you look at where you're gonna be. And you're like, I like renting an apartment and this is where I'm truly happy. Okay, but I'm asking you, please don't lie to yourself.

• 45:50Jocko Willink?

  This happens with, uh, with people going through SEAL training. They say they want to be a SEAL.

• 45:57Jocko Willink?

  They, they sign up for six years of their lives. They tell all their friends that they're gonna be a SEAL. They tell their girlfriend they're gonna be a SEAL. They tell their parents and their grandparents they're gonna be a SEAL. And then it gets cold.

• 46:11Jocko Willink?

  And they decide, I don't really care about being a SEAL. It's not really. Not really for me.

• 46:18Jocko Willink?

  It's not true.

• 46:21Jocko Willink?

  It's a lie.

• 46:23Jocko Willink?

  And they quit and then two days later, two hours later, they're like, damn, I know, I actually do. I do want to do that. Yeah. But at the moment of truth, you lied to yourself.

• 46:35Jocko Willink?

  So that's what we end up doing a lot. We end up doing a lot of lying to ourselves.

• 46:44Jocko Willink?

  About the game that we're playing. About the game that we want to play, about the game that we should play.

• 46:52Jocko Willink?

  And we don't tell ourselves the truth about it.

• 46:58Jocko Willink?

  This is also why it's very important to be able to take a step back and detach.

• 47:05Jocko Willink?

  Because your little conniving mind will outsmart you.

• 47:12Jocko Willink?

  It will outsmart you. And it'll agree with the fact that you really don't care about, you know, having a good relationship with this girl or this guy.

• 47:25Jocko Willink?

  Or it'll say, you know what, I don't really care about getting advanced at work because I'm good with where I'm at. Your mind will tell you that and you gotta watch out because your mind is smart. It knows how to manipulate you. Knows what to say.

• 47:42Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 47:44Jocko Willink?

  Pay attention to the game that you're playing. Select the right game.

• 47:52Jocko Willink?

  And make sure that you don't lie to yourself.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  So the, the lying to yourself, like that goes super deep. Like lying to yourself about like.

• 48:05Jocko Willink?

  Did I hit a nerve over there?

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, you did actually, kind of. But you know, and you make this joke sometimes where you're talking about 20 rep squat. And you're like, I don't know if it's even, I don't even know if I care about being strong.

• 48:17Jocko Willink?

  No, no, you're giving me, you're giving me a little bit too much like niceness. I'm really like doing a 20 rep squat like I don't even care about. This is stupid. Like I get, I get a, that weak part of my brain gets aggressive. Like dude, this is, you're gonna get hurt. Yeah. I'm saying that kind of shit. You're gonna get hurt, you know? You're gonna get hurt and you're not gonna be able to roll. You're not gonna be able to surf. Like you should just. Being, what, how big do you want to, how strong do you need to be, bro?

• 48:42Speaker 01

  It's.

• 48:43Jocko Willink?

  Just take it easy.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the thing is that like that, and that's why I was kind of laughing because I thought about that and, and I, I have some, some pretty bad ones as well where, you know, you, and the lie is that like you don't really care that much about being strong. The thing is like being strong is important, always has been important. You just don't want to fucking suffer.

• 49:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Hey, check this out. If, if, if you went into the gym. And someone's like at that moment and they're like if they break and they go, you know what? I don't really care about being strong. And then you're like, hey, here's a pill you can take. It'll make you freaking super strong. 100% of people are taking it. There's no one that says I don't want that pill.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:22Jocko Willink?

  There's people that aren't willing to make the sacrifice.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:24Jocko Willink?

  And cause let's face it, dude, you do those 20 rep squats, bro.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Brother. Yeah, that's a, that's a like a psych, it can be like a psychedelic experience. Like, you know, when you get to like the, the.

• 49:34Jocko Willink?

  I thought you were gonna say psycho traumatic experience.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  No. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I guess depends on who you are, depends how much weight you're doing. Depends on how you feel. But yes, psychedelic, but what you just said there was like, they don't want to make the sacrifice. Right. And that sacrifice looks like a, that's a bunch of different things depending on what you're doing. But really that's the truth, but that's a hard truth to say. It's like, it seems way more comforting to be like, it's not really that worth it. Cause when something's not worth it and it's like clear, it's like, yeah, like it's like, yeah, I could go to the store, but it's not worth it for the whatever I'm trying to get or whatever. Like that's easy. That's the easy one to accept. But if you're like, yeah, it is worth it. And but right now I don't want to endure that suffering. I'm too like mentally weak or whatever you want to, you know, whatever the situation is like, I'm too mentally weak

• 50:21Speaker 01

  to go through that suffering for this 25 seconds. That's hard.

• 50:24Jocko Willink?

  What's funny is you never say I'm too mentally weak to go through this. Cause if you say that you're, you actually, you actually wreck, what you'll say is like, I don't, you know, I don't think I should get injured. I don't think I should push myself. You got all these other excuses that you'll make and what's, what, what we have to watch out for is we can propel ourselves down the path in life of getting on the easiest game.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 50:50Jocko Willink?

  You can say, hey, here's the easiest path to take. That's a good enough game for me. And listen, this is what you gotta watch out for. You gotta watch out for unutilized potential that you have as a human being. If you have unutilized potential as a human being, that's what ends up, in my opinion, becoming regret.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yeah. I see that.

• 51:14Jocko Willink?

  That becomes resentment towards other people as well. You ever? You know, we talked about this on the last podcast of like, oh, your friends don't want you to succeed. There's some friends that don't want you to succeed.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:27Jocko Willink?

  That's because they know that they didn't do what they were supposed to do. You ever see someone like doing something that's hardcore and you're like a little bit jealous and mad and like frustrated?

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Uh, I, I, I feel like I probably have yes, but I can't think of anything offhand. But I understand what you're saying, yes.

• 51:45Jocko Willink?

  When I'm, when you see like, oh, uh, Jaco, like I post, oh, I just got done training jujitsu and you didn't. Are you a little bit mad?

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit.

• 51:54Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Sometimes.

• 51:56Jocko Willink?

  A little bit mad.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:57Jocko Willink?

  Cause, and cause it's a reflection of you.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:00Jocko Willink?

  You decided not to train.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:02Jocko Willink?

  That was your choice.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:04Jocko Willink?

  Shit's getting personal.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  You know what's real funny about that is like that you're right in

• 52:10Speaker 01

  you're right in probably more ways than you think because sometimes I'll be like, I'll be like, ah, he didn't call me to go train. You know how sometimes you'll, you'll like text and be like, training news time or whatever. And then like, then I'll see whatever someone posts a picture of themself with you training. And I'm like, ah, it's like, it's almost like a justification. You know, I'm like, ah, he didn't call me, but eh, whatever, you know, kind of thing. But really the, the real pain is like that I just didn't go train.

• 52:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  That you did and I didn't.

• 52:38Jocko Willink?

  So imagine that over a lifetime. Like we're, we're talking about one training session makes you feel a little bit, but when, but imagine you look up and you know that someone else who's pretty much the same level human as you. Like, look, I look at some people like, Dan, that person's doing, I, I don't have the capability of doing what they're doing in that arena.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:57Jocko Willink?

  Like whatever that arena is.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:58Jocko Willink?

  Freaking Tom Brady, right? What's this dude doing? Like, there's, this is a human that was built for that game. Uh, Gordon Ryan, right? This is a human that's built for that game. And both those guys, massive work ethic, dedication.

• 53:18Jocko Willink?

  Just that's what they're good. That's what that's the game that they're playing and they've committed to that game and they're born for that game. So I'm over here. I'm not looking at Gordon Ryan like frustrated about him. I might be like, damn, bro. I might be like that. That dude is. I actually it just actually I know I'm trying to think of what my emotions are when I look at Tom Brady or I look at. Michael Jordan, or I look at Gordon Ryan. It's like, oh, that's a human that got the blessing of having. A level of natural ability that then took it to the nth degree. Good for them, bro.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:56Jocko Willink?

  Respect. I don't even feel frustrated about that. Here's where people get frustrated. They look at Joe Schmo. And they go, dude, Joe Schmo did this and I'm sitting over here and that person did better than me. And I know I have more talent than them.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:11Jocko Willink?

  That's where people get pissed. That's where people get resentful.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what it feels like where like, yeah, you mentioned these like elite level, you know, Gordon Ryan and. Michael Jordan, Tom Brady. It's almost like they're so good and so like they have they connected all their dots in their whole life potential. Gifts and work ethic. Like you don't even compare yourself with them because of all these elements that are different. So like, you know, when someone's like in the same lane as you, that's when you're going to be paying attention, you know? Where certain people, even if someone's like just playing a whole different game, like someone who's like won the Nobel Prize. There are other people in their in their little environment who's like, yeah, their ecosystem that they're like, yeah, I should have won the Nobel Prize.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Or they'll be haterish or whatever. But you, if you're not pursuing the Nobel Prize, you're kind of like, oh, that's pretty impressive. You know, you don't care at all. You're just not in that lane, you know?

• 55:05Jocko Willink?

  What's the deal with Tom Brady as far as like, you know, you see these the the numbers that he did in the combine when he was getting drafted? And he was like, not, you know, horrible numbers. I think like the worst forty. And they show pictures of him. He had no vertical. So was he just not like the best athlete? And then he got, he worked to get that athletic or he just not been on the right program?

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Wait, is Tom Brady super athletic now or something?

• 55:32Jocko Willink?

  I mean, he's freaking won however many Super Bowls.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:35Jocko Willink?

  He's in awesome shape at 45 years old.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, fully. So the, yeah, there's an, you know, this like where there's different like types of athlete. But more than that, it's more what kind of player are you? Like, how good of a player are you? So certain positions, if you're more athletic, that's going to add to how good of a player you are. You gotta have other elements for sure. Oh, yeah, a hundred percent. Now quarterback is kind of the most cerebral one of the thing. So he's, he gotta be, he has to be a good football player, like quarterback. So there's something in his mind and you can train all this stuff like in, and of course physically, like he's a tall guy. You know, that helps and you got physical attributes for sure, but just because you don't have a vertical. Like that's more like basketball. Your vertical is going to matter more than being a quarterback.

• 56:16Jocko Willink?

  Do you think he, do you think he was not on the right program? And then once he started getting honed, he was able to become more. Cause let's face it, like he could have been a, a really good athlete that just didn't know how to train, right?

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:30Jocko Willink?

  Is that possible?

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, very possible.

• 56:31Jocko Willink?

  I need to do some research.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you, you tend to get like these really good, and I told you about my friend, Tim Carey, where he, um, he was a quarterback at U H. I actually talked to him briefly. He was, uh, he, I think he played in Canada for a little bit too. But, and I'm not saying he's not a Tom Brady level athlete, but he was so good. He, but he was one of those guys where you tell him run a 40, he's not very fast. He was pretty tall, but you tell him jump a vertical, he's not going to be one of the highest vertical guys, you know? But his mind and his just way of connecting with the people around him on the team or whatever was like, you could tell he was really good at that. And I'm sure you can train that. A lot of his like personality, but it's like the way you're in touch with the game and with your game, that's going to really tell the tale more so than how fast you run the 40 or do those combine exercises.

• 57:17Jocko Willink?

  Fedor.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:19Jocko Willink?

  So one thing about Fedor, when people talk about the different talents that people have, right? And you got, you know, some fighter is super explosive, right?

• 57:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:30Jocko Willink?

  You got a Yoel Romero, right? Just explosive. He's like a superhero explosive. You got some other guy that could, you know, Nate Diaz, just go endurance, bro. He'll just gonna, he's gonna keep going. Nothing gonna stop him.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:42Jocko Willink?

  From an endurance perspective, BJ Penn, flexible, super flexible. You got guys that just cardio machines Frankie Edgar, right? So there's different people have different talents. What I always found about Fedor Malianenko, who a lot of people say is the best heavyweight of all time uh, in mixed martial arts. What I, I thought like his talent was that he knew how to fight really good. You know, like he knew how to take his wrestling, his boxing, his striking, his grappling. He knew how to take all those things. His talent was being able to put them all into one, into one package and utilize the right skill at the right time.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:20Jocko Willink?

  Better than anyone else in his era.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you know, here's another one too. And you mentioned this every once in a while where he was unshakable. Like he wasn't the kind where like, you get him in trouble and it that means something to that. You get him in trouble means nothing to him.

• 58:33Jocko Willink?

  Means nothing to him.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:35Jocko Willink?

  Go look at Kevin Randleman, just picking him up, smashing him on his spine.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:40Jocko Willink?

  Like where you look at it.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  Airborne.

• 58:42Jocko Willink?

  Airborne and you think there, you think at least there's a decent chance this guy's, is gonna be paralyzed.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:49Jocko Willink?

  Uh, literally paralyzed from the neck down because he gets smashed on his head.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:53Jocko Willink?

  And he hits the ground and he looks like, it looks like I just walked up to you and like said hi. That's the expression.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:59Jocko Willink?

  He just looks totally normal and he gets the guy in a Camaro.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:02Jocko Willink?

  But that, you see that and you go, okay, that's what that guy's talent was.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:08Jocko Willink?

  Was taking all those things like he, if there was no MMA and there was just boxing, he wouldn't have been a world champion boxer. If there was just wrestling, he wouldn't have been a world champion wrestler. Cause there was people that would beat him in wrestling. There's people that beat him in boxing. There's people that beat him in Sombo, but you take all those things and put them together and he, that's the skill he had.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:25Jocko Willink?

  So when we're cruising around life, you, if you can, and you can identify what talent you have.

• 59:36Jocko Willink?

  That can help you identify what game you should get into. And if you're lucky, the game that you're good at is the game that you also like to play, right? Because there's some people that have a natural skill, but they don't like that that game, right? There's also some people that lack a skill, but they love that game. Look, I'm okay with that to an extent, right? Like, hey, I really love this game. I suck at it, but I'm gonna go for it. Appreciate the heart, man. And you, you, you, that might be the right move for you. Because then you're doing something that you love and you get beat, it doesn't really matter. As long as you accept that and you understand that and you understand what winning is gonna look like for you in that particular game.

• 1:00:22Jocko Willink?

  But if you're not paying attention to that, you might be getting involved, you might be, it's the same thing you hear with, uh, you know, oh, I just always did what my parents wanted me to do. And that's why I went to law school and now I'm a lawyer and I hate it. Right? Like, watch out for that. If you don't like, if that's not the game you want to play at all, and your parents are getting you to law school and you want to be a welder because you like fabricating stuff with your hands, let me tell you what game you should pick. You should pick that fabrication. You should become a welder because your passion and your love for welding will more than make up for the fact that it might start off with a lower income than being a lawyer, which by the way, probably isn't even true these days. Because being a lawyer, there's so many lawyers out there.

• 1:01:07Jocko Willink?

  It takes a long time to build up your life, your, your book of business.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  And it depends on what kind of lawyer you are. Like, I know a handful of lawyers and most of them are, don't make that much money.

• 1:01:18Jocko Willink?

  That's very true, very true. And most welders, they make pretty good money.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, man.

• 1:01:25Jocko Willink?

  So that's what game you want to get in.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Jocko Willink?

  And you, and you, and you just, you just have to pay attention to yourself. And what I would say about both those, your parents want you to be a lawyer, they've told you to be a lawyer. If you lie to yourself, it ain't gonna work out well.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  Bro, you you made a really good point with the admirals and stuff where and then UFC has that where you know you put all your eggs in that basket playing that game hardcore and then once it's over you're sort of done. So um I know like you know professional sports that can be the case and you know you ever watched what's the show The Rock used to be in and he was like a sports financial advisor?

• 1:02:07Jocko Willink?

  No idea.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  It was it was a show I used to watch it for a while and I was like I don't get what this guy is that when I first started watching it and I was like oh what he does is he manages like the money and the financial future of athletes that come in because you know you come out of high school you squeaked out a degree a little bit you went to the draft or whatever and your whole your whole plan for your whole life all your eggs in that basket of football and then nothing else afterwards right and you're playing football that's all you're doing football party whatever whatever so The Rock was like an advisor that he would help plan like hey you should you should take some of your money invested here so when you're done playing football because when you play football you don't think about after football you're saying forget football forever.

• 1:02:47Jocko Willink?

  Well unfortunately most people between the most men for sure between the ages of fifteen thirty aren't thinking about anything you you all think you're gonna not you're not worried but hey something will happen which is by the way lying to yourself.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Yes, so true. So he was he would do that and that like kind of man you can obviously we don't have a lot of us don't have financial advisors when we get our first great job you know but it's like that's the kind of mindset you kind of got to keep that's gonna help you you know like what mindset that hey this is gonna end this job is gonna end and then what am I gonna do so some jobs are good where you can have that job and you get so much experience just by doing the job that like when you're done you're like oh shoot to me Admiral seems like one of those jobs I don't know.

• 1:03:34Jocko Willink?

  No there's definitely like I said the military industrial complex is looking to hire you up and make you a freaking whatever their thing and their board meeting and you're gonna go to the big meeting and get more missiles bought by the Navy or whatever that's going on for sure.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  But UFC fighter?

• 1:03:50Jocko Willink?

  Not guaranteed by the way what I just said. There's always a slot, there's always some slots for that flag officer. But also that flag officer is like, well, they're like, yeah, yeah, we got a job for you. Just gotta move to whatever this place is. And the guy's like, well, I wanted to retire to Tennessee. Like, well, we don't need someone in Tennessee. We need someone in Washington DC. Tennessee or DC? We need you in DC, not Tennessee. And so then they're like, oh, I guess I'll just not do that. And look, you're got an admiral's, you got an admiral's pay, admiral's retirement. Or a general's retirement, which is good money. But it's not getting you anything close to the life that you had when you were an active duty general officer. Cause you had a driver and you had a car and you had a freaking airplane.

• 1:04:34Jocko Willink?

  You weren't flying around in Delta. You're not flying around in America. You had a plane. And you're, hey, I'm going there now. I'm going there now. There's a big group of people waiting for you and they're feeding you extravagant foods and treating you with respect. All of a sudden, next thing you know, you're on Delta Airlines in the cheap seats. You know? So that's where it sneaks up on people.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:57Jocko Willink?

  And there's people that do that in every industry. That happens in, in, in academics. It happens in the financial industry. It happens in any industry.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:05Jocko Willink?

  Any, any job that you can have, if you don't recognize the ecosystem that that job actually encompasses and think that it encompasses more. If you think that the ecosystem encompasses the whole world.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:18Jocko Willink?

  Like there's, like being a SEAL, right? No one, like, there's an admiral SEAL. There's me, there's some other guy that did four years. In this really world, that's just a SEAL. They're all the same dude, right? Well, this guy was an admiral. Sure. Some people might say, well, admiral sounds pretty important. Well, this guy over here says, yeah, I was a master chief. Goes, oh, well, master chief, admiral, those guys both sound pretty awesome to me. Right? This is, it's like the same thing. So you think that that ecosystem expands to encompass the whole universe and you think it expands to encompass life? It doesn't. So if you're not paying attention, you will be invested in a game where when you walk off

• 1:05:59Jocko Willink?

  the court, no one cares what the score was. People do that with academia, like you're going to college and they're trying to get good grades and all this stuff. No one cares. No one wants to see your report card. Actually, a lot of times they don't even care what university you went to. Sure, if you went to the big, whatever, big Ivy League, there's people that care about that. But then there's also people like, I don't care where you went to school, whatever. You went to Harvard, you went to Princeton, you went to Berkeley, you went to Yale, you went to wherever. It's like, okay, cool, whatever. We don't care. Can you perform in this job?

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:27Jocko Willink?

  And that's the question. So if we're not thinking about that, we end up with issues. That's why, you know, I've told vets for all these years, you need to find a new mission. Find a new mission because that, once you're out of the military, no one calls you Master Chief anymore. No one calls you Commander anymore. It doesn't happen. Sure, you can go to the country club and someone calls you Admiral if you tell them all about it, but they, they're just kind of like, whatever. It's no big deal. So we have to be careful about this. And you know, the UFC thing for sure is, you know, guys that fought in the UFC and then that's over. You know, even Jiu-Jitsu guys, like, oh, that's over. Like you just said, football guys, like you're on, you're

• 1:07:12Jocko Willink?

  on an NFL football team. Nowadays, cool, you're going to get a good retirement, you're going to get taken care of. But back in the day, back in the seventies, like you got done, no one knows, no, you don't have any money. Yeah. No one cares.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  You gotta go get a job.

• 1:07:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you gotta go get an actual job.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  That's weird.

• 1:07:26Jocko Willink?

  That's a strange thing.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Actually, yeah, my uncle, he died, but he played in the NFL for like six years or whatever.

• 1:07:34Jocko Willink?

  What team?

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Um, kind of, he played for Cleveland and he's old school. He's like, he would have been like 80.

• 1:07:41Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang, he was old school. He was hardcore leather helmet.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Well, nah, not quite, but nonetheless, when I first, I heard about him, whatever, but when I first met him, when he came to visit or whatever, he was like, yeah, he was like just a normal dude. I thought, you know, he's, he's huge, but he was like, um, I thought he was going to be some big time rich dude. Cause he got that NFL money, you know, but no, like when you're done, you sort of got, I mean, unless you're focused right when you get that you focus on retirement and invest, you know, all that stuff. Most people don't do that. So he just came as just a normal dude. I think he worked in like, I don't know, some, actually I think he owned like a shop or something.

• 1:08:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. But what's interesting is if you were in the NFL back then, or you were in the UFC, five years ago, 10 years ago, and you recognized the limitations of the game you were investing in, and you pulled chips off the table in that game and put it into the bigger game.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:39Jocko Willink?

  That's how you win. That's how you look up and go, yeah, you know, I didn't, you know, I didn't do great in the UFC. I fought for the belt twice, didn't win it, but I, you know, bought these three apartment buildings. You know, over a five year period. Two of them were paid for, you know what I mean? And then all of a sudden you go, oh. So the only way you get to see that is by following the advice we gave on the last podcast. Take a step back and write down the game that you're in and the multiple games that you're in. And then what are the strategies to win these games? And by the way, you can be playing a game, a short-term game, a subordinate game, that is going to cost you in the strategic victory of the supreme game.

• 1:09:20Jocko Willink?

  So you're doing dumb things. Hey, oh, I'm going to deal some drugs right now, right? I'm going to deal some drugs and I want to make some money right now, blah, blah, blah. Then you get caught. And now you're screwed.

• 1:09:31Jocko Willink?

  So you can do, you can make mistakes in the short-term games. You can get involved in games that don't matter. You can get involved in games that take away your resources. And if you do that, you're gonna, you're gonna sacrifice the supreme game. Again, please go and write down, take a step back, detach and write down the various games and subordinate games that you're involved in. Well, look, we're all playing at least one big game together. All of us. And you know, for you. Winning the game of life might be, hey, I've got a big family. I've got a bunch of kids, I've got a bunch of grandkids, that's a W.

• 1:10:13Jocko Willink?

  It might be, hey, I'm not really into a big family, but I got a bunch of properties and I gotta, um, I know I can spend my final years doing whatever I want and that's your W. If that's your W, fine. Maybe it's, hey, look, I don't really care about money, but I want to live by the beach or I want to live in the mountains and I want to be left alone and not have to worry about anything. And that's the W. Okay. Cool. Figure out what that win looks like. Figure out what that W is and then figure out how you're going to play that game to win.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  Do you, you know, you heard the, the whole thing where, um, you know, people do this where they'll interview people who are like really old and sometimes they interview like the super successful people who are really old and kind of retired or whatever. And they say like, what are your regrets or whatever? Uh, and it's usually stuff that they didn't do or maybe I should have. Okay. And what, so I have two questions. Hey, do you ever, uh, like do that? Is that ever like a motive, not a motivator, but like a, um, like a tool you use to be like, hey, I, I should do more or whatever by thinking like, oh, I don't want to be old and regret not doing certain things.

• 1:11:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I think when I talked earlier about the, knowing that you have a certain level of potential.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:25Jocko Willink?

  Knowing that you have a certain amount of time, knowing that I have opportunities that some of my friends don't have anymore.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:33Jocko Willink?

  It's like, oh, if you don't think I'm going to try and do my best to fulfill the potential that I have to, to squeeze what I can out of life. Well, yeah, no, of course I think that way. You know, I think about all my friends that don't have that opportunity.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:51Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  Do you think of now, do you ever think of like things in the past, like that you can kind of can't do anymore because you're not in that position anymore? You know, like sometimes when you're like, hey, I should have enjoyed myself more in my twenties or whatever. Do you ever think that?

• 1:12:05Jocko Willink?

  I enjoyed myself a lot.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  So you don't have any like.

• 1:12:07Jocko Willink?

  I'm like, I enjoy myself a little bit too much in my twenties.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:11Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:12Jocko Willink?

  I was, I was playing that game pretty hard.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:14Jocko Willink?

  Right? And I played it a little too hard, you know? I probably should have a little, been a little bit smarter, but I think also. You know, I, I think that the years that I was like, you know, blowing money on partying and chicks and just all that crap. I think in those years, I also, those were years that were a little bit, for lack of a better word, a little bit expendable, meaning like, that's what I was doing. I knew I had a longer future, you know?

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:44Jocko Willink?

  And knew I'd be able to kinda have some time to put that together. But that being said, I've told my kids, I've been like, oh, if I would have been smarter, the, the whole, the whole world would be different.

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:12:56Jocko Willink?

  You know, so I guess I do have, when I, if I think about it, kind of bifurcate the two thoughts. One of them is like, well, yeah, I had a good time and it was fun. But also if I look at it from a more mature aspect, it's like, yeah, you know, I would have been in a much better position now than, than I am. Now, listen, I will say that I'm in a really good position right now in my life. Like, I mean, I've got, got good stuff going on. I kinda have what I, what I want.

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:30Jocko Willink?

  Um, but you know, if I wouldn't have gotten onto this path that we're on right now, you know, if I, if I would have retired from the military and run the gym and taught jujitsu, and I had to look around right now and look at the time and money that I wasted as a 20 to, as an 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 year old, I'd be like, damn, I should, I wasted, I blew a lot of stuff. Luckily, like I said, I think I've made maneuvers. Once I identified the game that I was playing, which I didn't really do until I was like 25 years old. It's like, okay, I see this game. Okay, now I'm in a game.

• 1:14:11Jocko Willink?

  Here's the, here's the maneuver, here's the moves that I have to make. Here's the things that I have to do to set myself up for the long run. And once I did that, then I was able to sort it out. But if I, and then, and then continued to identify, oh, this is the game that's going on right now. Okay, here's, here's how I can make moves. So I think if I wouldn't have identified that.

• 1:14:34Jocko Willink?

  I would be totally regretful.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, but as of right now, you're you're kind of.

• 1:14:39Jocko Willink?

  No, I feel good. And then the other question I got asked myself, well, if I didn't have those other experiences, would I be who I am right now? And the answer is probably no.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  Probably not, yeah.

• 1:14:47Jocko Willink?

  You know, so I I was doing things and learning about life and going through experiences that I learned a lot from. And I think that was beneficial.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:59Jocko Willink?

  And it makes me who I am. So.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like you're, you know, in your position and a lot of people in the position where you have you had such a like action path, for lack of a better term, yep, like young life, you know, that it's hard to be like, man, I wish it because you know, you you bring up, um,

• 1:15:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  people who follow their parents' dreams, you know, and then they get and even when they're for real successful, they'll be like, dang, I wish I would have, I wish I would have paid attention more to my friends or my whatever, my family, whatever.

• 1:15:29Jocko Willink?

  Or or even if they just say, I wish I would have followed my dreams instead of my parents' dreams.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:33Jocko Willink?

  So this is to your case in point, I followed my dreams.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  From day one.

• 1:15:38Jocko Willink?

  Like from day one, I was like, hey, I want to go be a frog man. I'm gonna go get after it. Like, that's what I'm doing. And I did it. And so that's to me, uh, very very satisfying, gratifying and regret removal, right?

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 1:15:56Jocko Willink?

  Like, I think if I if I had not done what I had wanted to do, like, well, you know, you played football. Is there a part of you that goes, man, if I would have pushed a little bit harder, if I would have trained a little bit harder, if I would have been a little bit more dedicated, I probably could have, you know, maybe I could have gone, whatever, maybe I could have gone to the NFL, maybe I could have done, or you don't have those thoughts?

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:16:14Jocko Willink?

  You're shaking your head like.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, not even close. So I I think.

• 1:16:17Jocko Willink?

  Do you think you didn't have the capability of going to the NFL?

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  Um, I don't, I don't know. I mean, put it this way, the guys that on my team that I know that went to the NFL were like way more gifted than me. So.

• 1:16:30Jocko Willink?

  Way more gifted or way?

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  All across the board.

• 1:16:33Jocko Willink?

  Wait, wait, or did they work harder though?

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, both. And here's what I realized like within two years, it was actually after I got injured, I had to work my way back into the depth chart. He's like, I don't like football enough to like have to play this game as hard as everyone. I'm looking around and guys are like, they're down for the grind of football and that's football and they're watching the games on the weekends, all this, I don't care. I kind of. To be honest, I kinda care more about the party after the game than you know, like practice and like all this stuff. I liked lifting weights. I like that part of it. And certain like running drills, I like that part of it, but I think the the reality of what it takes to play football like wasn't worth it at all. To me after like about two years, yeah, in college, in high school, it's like

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  you're just into working out and you run faster than everybody. So it's you can catch good. So you make touchdowns. If you're good at football in in high school, like you're just gonna live a good life, you know, kind of a thing. And then so it wasn't, it didn't take the kind of work it did in college. So it really brings to light like what it takes. And you're like, oh, brother, this isn't like, I don't even like football that much. I like it, but not that much.

• 1:17:42Jocko Willink?

  What if you were still a bouncer right now?

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  No, so.

• 1:17:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, would you kind of be like, damn, I wish.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  No, I would have if this is the if if I was.

• 1:17:50Jocko Willink?

  I'm just trying to see if you lied to you. Did you lie to yourself at all when you were like, you know what? I don't care about that much about football. Were you just saying that because it was a bunch of hard work and you're like, oh, I don't really care about football. It's like what I talked about earlier today.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  No, cuz it doesn't feel like in any way cuz I don't even know. I don't watch football. And not cuz like I saw her grades or nothing, but I like I'll try to watch football. Cuz I want my son to kind of be into and think of cuz and it is fun to watch, but I'm like not into it really. I'm not into it.

• 1:18:22Jocko Willink?

  So there's truly zero regret for your football career.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  You know what I think? I think what drew me to football was my dad's like he was so proud that cuz Jay joined football first one year, like when he was 10, when we were 10. And my dad was so proud of him and I'd watch him play and how everyone just loved it and all this stuff. So I was like, oh, okay. And then the next year I went and we were we were good, you know, coming up or whatever. So it's like you just get the payoff of being good more so than I really liked football. I think I did it for my dad, to be honest. Like not.

• 1:18:55Jocko Willink?

  So you truly have no regret?

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  The football thing, no.

• 1:18:59Jocko Willink?

  Um, that's good.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:01Jocko Willink?

  That's good, because there's some people that, you know, would have been invested. And, and from what you're saying, you weren't actually that. That, you know, uh, let's say, uh, eighty percent natural talent. If a hundred gets you to the NFL, you had eighty percent.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Jocko Willink?

  And you could have made it up to eighty seven, because you would have, if you would have worked really super hard, but you still wouldn't have been there.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, consider who went to the NFL for my team that, I mean, there's some other guys kind of later on. But Ashley Lilly, six, three, ran a four, two, something, forty. He went to the NFL. Uh, my friend Jeff Olbrich, who I met, he ran a four, five. He weighs two fifty-five. He's six, one. Um, and good at football. That's the thing, too. Okay, and Ashley has all these touchdowns and like, just good at football. Uh, my friend Adrian Clem, who went, he was a lineman, he was six, five, three hundred pounds, and good at football, long arms. He was a O-line. Really, these are real, these are elite athletes.

• 1:19:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  In Division One college football. So, you don't just go to the NFL.

• 1:20:03Jocko Willink?

  You had that realization. Was there anybody that surprised you? Anybody that like, you know, little Freddie?

• 1:20:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There is, there are a handful of those guys. Um, they usually make it to like, the combine stuff and the practice squad. And they do some work there, but they don't, they don't go and play in the NFL, you know, um.

• 1:20:22Jocko Willink?

  No surprises?

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was, um, I totally forget his name.

• 1:20:27Jocko Willink?

  What did he went to the NFL?

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  Local guy went to the NFL, played on some, some squads, didn't play in games or nothing, but played on some squads. There's a few guys.

• 1:20:34Jocko Willink?

  If you just play in the squad, are you getting paid?

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get paid, practice better than like, a normal job, for sure. Yeah, better than your average job. Oh, yeah. Like, you can get.

• 1:20:44Jocko Willink?

  And that, could that have been of you, could that have been you?

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, if, if I would have, if I was gung ho about football, like these, yeah, yeah, I think so. I, because I, I ran.

• 1:20:53Jocko Willink?

  But you assessed that the game was not for you.

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  The game was not for me. The game I chose, I didn't have, I didn't have a contingency.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  I didn't have really like, like goals. I was just trying to do whatever. I'll be a personal trainer or something like this. And then, you know, work in the clubs, you know, when you're 20. It's like, whatever.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Nah, it was, it was well into the club where I was like, hey, I gotta do something like creative. You know, with, with people that I like, that are like, that has a real future, not just the manager of a nightclub, you know? Like, that's not a, I didn't see that as who I was, kind of a thing. So I, yeah, I joined with my brother and started stuff.

• 1:21:37Jocko Willink?

  Well,

• 1:21:40Jocko Willink?

  I'm glad you were able to assess.

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  Actually, you taught me something passively.

• 1:21:44Jocko Willink?

  What's that?

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  That you know how you're like a Navy SEAL? Or were, whatever.

• 1:21:49Jocko Willink?

  Whatever.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  Um, but then you're also a black belt in jujitsu. And this is what I found out about you, like early on too, where you like, dabbled in like real estate.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  And then I didn't find out you were this leadership dude or had that until Tim Ferriss podcast. I literally didn't even know that. Um, so the point there is you have like, five, that's like, what, four or five different viable games to play? Five?

• 1:22:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Like, very viable. Just alone, but you have five of them going on at the same time.

• 1:22:23Jocko Willink?

  Yes, and that is something that is a strategy. And of, and the weird thing is, and I'd say that this is probably, you know, we talked about Fedor talent, being able to put it all together. I would say the little bit of talent that I have, because you know me, I'm not that talented in anything, really. But what I was pretty talented at was being able to like, work hard in a bunch of different things. Kind of simultaneously.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:51Jocko Willink?

  Like, kind of like, I'm gonna do these things and they're all our time suckers. And they all take a lot of effort and time, but I'm gonna go ahead and do them all at the same time. And I think that's, it's hard to do that. And in some, in a lot of cases, it's not even smart to do that because in a lot of cases, you know, if you're doing one thing and then you're doing something else and you're doing something else and you're doing something else, you're not prioritizing and executing. You're not focusing your resources properly to actually make anything happen. So that in many cases is a negative to try and do a bunch of things at the same time.

• 1:23:35Jocko Willink?

  You know, I would say like, how much more dedicated, I was, I was very dedicated to jujitsu and I still train all the time, but and there was a time maybe where I was pretty good, but like training, when I'm training with Dean Lester and I'm training with Dean and he's like a world champion. I recognize kind of like what you're saying, there was a gap in natural ability that would not be, uh, would not be closed by any amount of work.

• 1:24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:08Jocko Willink?

  You know, there's a, there's a certain level that he is, and then I'd train with other world champions. I'd be like, okay, yep, that person's better than me. Now, look, I could have gotten, closed that gap more, you know, if I'd have been like, all right, you know what, I'm just getting out of the Navy and I'm gonna just do jujitsu all the time. Sure, I could have closed that gap more for sure, a hundred percent, obviously.

• 1:24:30Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, I think that's, that's me working hard and not only that,

• 1:24:37Jocko Willink?

  when it does come to prioritize and execute, when I'm, when I was doing one thing, like I would do that thing.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:44Jocko Willink?

  And then two hours later, I'm doing something else, I'm focused on that thing. And then two hours later, I'm doing the other thing, I'm doing it. So I think the amount of focus that I would bring to the table when it came to pursuing goals was strong. And I never, like, I never sacrificed a one second of work.

• 1:25:05Jocko Willink?

  In the SEAL teams for anything else, for nothing else. Like, there was no way that I was gonna ever be like, oh, I gotta go. No, I never left work. Never, never, never was like, nope, I gotta go. That's why, you know, for many, many years, Dean and I trained at eight o'clock at night. Because that's when I could safely know, you know, you get to work at six o'clock in the morning. I know by eight o'clock I can get to the mats. Because I was never gonna prioritize anything above the primary job, which is being in a leadership role in the SEAL teams, which is gonna trump all other things. So.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  You, um, some of it though, and maybe you're like, yeah, some of your stuff where, you know, especially now, it's clear, but maybe, maybe early on it wasn't. But you know, like a lot of your stuff, all the things that you're good at, like certifiably good at, you produce results in, they like kinda can play off each other.

• 1:26:09Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  You know, so like, it's not like you're like, hey, I'm gonna pursue being a rock star and then run echelon front. It's like they're two, they're so different. I mean, unless you're playing songs for them at the, on the weekends or whatever, but you, they don't like.

• 1:26:20Jocko Willink?

  Which I don't.

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  They don't play off each other as much, you know, but.

• 1:26:25Jocko Willink?

  The, the Venn diagram overlap.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:28Jocko Willink?

  Of jujitsu, of SEAL teams, of leadership. And you know, like, then you got like the real estate thing, and that was always just a matter of me was like, there's a game going on here. And as soon as I realized that, oh, hey, man, like I realized when I was pretty young, I'm paying someone else's mortgage.

• 1:26:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:26:49Jocko Willink?

  When I'm paying rent, I'm paying someone else's mortgage. How do you win that game? The answer is you do not win that game. You do not win that game. You do not win that game. You have to get in a position where you're putting money and equity into your future, not someone else's future. So. That's the kind of thing where it's like, yes, that's a move I'm gonna make and I'm gonna sacrifice to be able to do it. I was house poor my entire Navy career. Completely house poor, driving a 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan for 13 years. That's a piece of shit car, man. That's like, there's no, that's, that's an ego, uh, you know, you see guys with their big trucks, this is the other end of the spectrum. This is the deflator, like, hey, I'm rolling up in a 1997, the freaking window on the driver's side didn't work.

• 1:27:34Jocko Willink?

  So it's taped up. But, uh, that's what, that's when I re, when I realized that these games were in play, that's when I started to be able to play the game. Whether that game is like, oh,

• 1:27:47Jocko Willink?

  real estate, paying someone else's, paying rent is paying out someone else's mortgage. That's not a winning game. That's not how you win that game. Am I always gonna need a house? Kind of. I'm always gonna need a place to live. I got a family. And believe me, there was times where I looked at, oh, I can live in, uh, you know, I was gonna do the boat live aboard thing. A lot of people, a lot of team guys do that. Like, I'll just live aboard a boat, whatever. Save that money. Cool. But again, you, all you have to do is study that for 15 minutes and you realize that a boat is a depreciating asset. It doesn't get, it loses value over time. All of them. Like, okay, you can get a car that's a, that's a classic or whatever. That's very rare.

• 1:28:28Jocko Willink?

  Cars, boats, planes, they're all depreciating assets. So when I realized that, it's like, okay, well, I'll move on a boat. Okay, that's a depreciating asset. Over time, I'm gonna end up in a worse spot. The only way to do this is I gotta buy a house. Okay. Then once I bought a house, it was like, okay, well, how long do I need to hold on to this house before I can buy another one? How long for another one? How long for another one? And when, again, when you look at all these different things that are happening, you can start to say, oh, I can at least see the game that's being played and I can get in the game.

• 1:29:02Jocko Willink?

  That's my recommendation. With that, we will continue this thread. We'll see.

• 1:29:11Jocko Willink?

  Perhaps on the next podcast, I don't know. We'll review this one and see if there's a little bit more to add to it. If anyone has questions about this one, hit us up.

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, this one's helpful, man. For even for me just listening, it's like, man, that's so helpful.

• 1:29:23Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's what I realized with these past couple podcasts. If I've got friends that I communicate with regularly and they don't realize this stuff, I know there's a lot of people that I haven't done a good job of communicating this to. I know that, you know, look, I cover a lot of military stuff, cover a lot of leadership stuff. But it's interesting when I talk about military and leadership things, I always think that the correlations to life are so obvious, but they're not as obvious as you think they are. Not as obvious as I think they are. So this is one of those where hopefully people can

• 1:30:02Jocko Willink?

  see through pretty direct communication, the, the concepts that we're talking about. And everyone is susceptible to the problems that can occur if you don't know about the game.

• 1:30:24Jocko Willink?

  So, speaking of that, we got Jocko Fuel. We, we both have been drinking a lot. You drink a mulk during this?

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:30:33Jocko Willink?

  How was it?

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  Good. I was signing banana cream all day.

• 1:30:35Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  Not as obvious as my normal chocolate, but bro, I, I seriously drink two of those a day.

• 1:30:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  Cause I got that freaking stockpile at home.

• 1:30:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So get yourself some protein. It's really easy. You know, you first alerted me to the fact that if you're trying to get the amount of protein that you need, 30 grams of protein is a, is a legitimate nudge.

• 1:31:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:31:00Jocko Willink?

  It's a legitimate, like, oh, this is a, this is a legitimate boost.

• 1:31:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:04Jocko Willink?

  To the protein intake.

• 1:31:05Speaker 01

  I think that's more than a normal, like, what do you call, like your FD, like a normal meal? Like a normal one serving meal or whatever. 30 grams is more than in a normal meal.

• 1:31:16Jocko Willink?

  There you go. So Mulk, we got these beautiful drinks.

• 1:31:21Jocko Willink?

  We didn't call them energy drinks. I mean, they are called energy drinks technically speaking, but they're not because energy drinks are bad for you and this one's good for you. So we're in a totally different level.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 1:31:31Jocko Willink?

  We're not in the game that they're in.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:31:33Jocko Willink?

  They're in the game of poisoning you.

• 1:31:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:34Jocko Willink?

  We're in the game of making you better.

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:36Jocko Willink?

  Smarter, faster, stronger. Jaco Fuel dot com. Get some of that. You can get it at Wawa. You can get it at Vitamin Shop, the Military Commissary. Look, if you're, I got word the other day.

• 1:31:49Jocko Willink?

  That there was a Military Commissary that was lacking. So, hey, also check in the uh, in like the health and wellness section of stores. Sometimes you're looking in the energy drink section. Some stores put them in there. Sometimes they put them over in the, in the health and wellness. So, check that out. Military Commissaries, Hanaford, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakefern and Shopright, Circle K in Florida, HEB. Shout out to all my people in Texas that are rolling into HEB and clearing shelves. Freaking outstanding. Thank you. Murphy's, Meyer, up in the Midwest. So, there you go. Jaco Fuel. Get some. Get some. Is what we like to say around here.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  Yep, it's true. Also, Origin USA, American made apparel. We're gonna start with jujitsu stuff. Gi's, when you're doing jujitsu, you need a good gi. So why not get the best gi? And plenty of options. So don't even worry about like, oh, I gotta get the one. No, you can get whichever one you want.

• 1:32:45Jocko Willink?

  Why would you run out and buy a Model T Ford that was rusty when you could go out and legitimately buy a Cadillac? Cause that's the difference between a normal gi and an Origin gi. It's, it's like that.

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  And that's not even to mention where it's made. See what I'm saying?

• 1:32:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  Which is a whole nother thing. Huge. Actually, probably even huger when you really think about the big game.

• 1:33:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  If you will. See what I'm saying? But yes, best of both worlds. Uh, Gi's, rash guards, got some shirts, some hoodies. Okay, so I have four, well, actually I have like eight Origin hoodies. A hu- a hundred percent the past month and a half, hundred percent every single day, even weekends, I wear the hoodies.

• 1:33:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, it's a little chilly out here in California for the Californians, especially for the Hawaiians be thinking it's a heavy hoodie. Well, you and I were doing some filming today.

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  Hell yeah.

• 1:33:28Jocko Willink?

  And I had like, I, I wear my Origin hoodie every day and it's just covered in food. I was like dude, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta, give me a second, you know, I got like scraps of steak on here. There's meatball on there. I just had to clean that thing off cuz you know, I guess I'm not one of those people that's super into like, you know, uh, whatever, fashion.

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  Hey man, you look great.

• 1:33:51Jocko Willink?

  We get the hunk gear too. Got the jeans, Delta jeans, Delta sixty eights. Come on.

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  Multiple, uh, levels of wash too.

• 1:33:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right. That's right. We got a wash house.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:34:03Jocko Willink?

  That's a thing. OriginUSA.com.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  Do you know the dynamics between the, the, like, do you know, under what circumstances you wear the dark, the medium and the light?

• 1:34:11Jocko Willink?

  Under what circumstances?

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, you know, when you wear light jeans, that's like a daytime, spring, it's more casual. Dark jeans, more like dressy. See what I'm saying? And then it's a spectrum. Right? You gotta know that kind of stuff. When you in big H are going out on dates. Just saying, I'm here to help. You gotta know the game you're playing. Also, Jaco has a store. It's called Jaco Store. That's where you can represent with discipline equals freedom, def core to the core on this path.

• 1:34:37Jocko Willink?

  Shirt locker.

• 1:34:38Speaker 01

  While we're playing this game.

• 1:34:39Jocko Willink?

  I seen the last shirt locker, shirt, no free dopamine. Just throwing that out there as a flag.

• 1:34:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:45Jocko Willink?

  Like, hey, I'm here, no free dopamine.

• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:48Jocko Willink?

  If you're, if you're wearing that shirt and you're looking at Instagram and you're, uh, scrolling.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:56Jocko Willink?

  And it's suck, it's giving you free dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  Yep, violating the whole.

• 1:35:01Jocko Willink?

  Don't let it happen. Come on.

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 1:35:03Jocko Willink?

  Clear your brain. Clear your brain. Uh, shirt locker.

• 1:35:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, shirt locker, uh, new shirt every month. Check that one out. It's all in JacoStore.com.

• 1:35:13Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe to the podcast, go to Jaco Underground, check that out, JacoUnderground.com, go to YouTube.

• 1:35:20Jocko Willink?

  Jocko Podcast on YouTube, Origin USA on YouTube, Psychological Warfare, Flip Side Canvas, Dakota Meyer. I talked to him the other day. He's just getting after it. Just getting after it no matter what. Dakota Meyer. He's got his own gym.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:35:33Jocko Willink?

  Down there in Texas. If you're in Texas, if you're in the Austin area, go to check out his gym. It's called Own the Dash.

• 1:35:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:40Jocko Willink?

  Gym.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I saw a guy with one of his shirts on. I was like, oh, Dakota Meyer, represent. Dig it.

• 1:35:46Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Uh, books, got a bunch of books. Jaco Publishing, Holly McKay's book. Get one of those. We, we did another print of those. So pick one of those up. Awesome book. And I've written a bunch of books. A Final Spin, novel. There's novel things happening with Final Spin. There's also some novel things happening with Warrior Kid. Look.

• 1:36:10Jocko Willink?

  We'll talk about this more in the future. But let's just say we like the way things are going. Written a bunch of books, so check those out. We also have Echelon Front. We solve problems through leadership. All your problems are leadership problems and we will get them solved. Go to echelonfront.com. If you need help there, if you want to come to one of our live events, we also have the Extreme Ownership Academy. We just redid this whole thing, revamped it. Actually, it's not even just a revamp. It's like a totally new, totally new, what is it, website? Is that what it's called? Totally new website. We got free courses on there to take. We got Dave Burke and I did a course.

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  Good deal.

• 1:36:46Jocko Willink?

  Free, yeah, a free course. Jamie Cochran and I did a course. So take those free courses. Go to extremeownership.com. You can check out some of the other content that we have. Cause look. This is what we're talking about. The, all these games that we're talking about, you need to win in these games. The way you win in these games, by having the right skills. Extremeownership.com will give you those skills. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization. You heard her on the podcast. You heard about her son. If you want to donate, you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org.

• 1:37:27Jocko Willink?

  And also don't forget about Micah Fink, who at present time is up there in the wilderness somewhere. He's got a, a small mountain lion in one hand. And he's got a bow and arrow in the other hand, and he's in the pursuit of a grizzly bear. That's what he's doing right now. So go to heroesandhorses.org if you want to help him, help our veterans. And also, if you want to connect with us, we're on the interwebs. Echo Charles is on Twitter. He's back on Twitter. Mistakes were made. They've been amended.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  Amended.

• 1:38:02Jocko Willink?

  Growth is re, re, respawning his life on Twitter.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  Sure. Yep.

• 1:38:07Jocko Willink?

  So check him out. He's at Echo Charles. He's on the Gram. He's on the Facebook.

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  Yep, that's true.

• 1:38:15Jocko Willink?

  At Echo Charles, I'm at Jaco. Listen, if you're gonna go on there though, just be careful. Cause there's free dopamine on there. They might as well be giving you cocaine or methamphetamines.

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  And it's getting better too, by the way. Just let me throw that out.

• 1:38:29Jocko Willink?

  You mean they're getting better at manipulating your brain?

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  With the algorithm, yes.

• 1:38:32Jocko Willink?

  The algorithm is just honed.

• 1:38:34Speaker 01

  Honed, yeah.

• 1:38:36Jocko Willink?

  Like if you, if you are into jujitsu.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:40Jocko Willink?

  But you're really into umaquadas, it's like showing you more umaquadas. If you're really into surfing, but you're a, you really like single fin 70s guns?

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:38:52Jocko Willink?

  Which I do.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  Hell yeah.

• 1:38:54Jocko Willink?

  That's, guess what just miraculously pops up? So they're tracking on you.

• 1:38:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:58Jocko Willink?

  That's the algorithm. Watch out.

• 1:39:02Jocko Willink?

  And thanks to our members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, who are playing the ultimate game around the world preserving freedom. Thank you for your service and thanks also to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, and all first responders. Thank you for preserving our way of life here at home. And to everyone else out there,

• 1:39:27Jocko Willink?

  don't lie to yourself.

• 1:39:31Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco.