UFO Lessons from Lacatski - The Doctor of Disclosure

In this episode, Jeremy and George rewind and review the astonishing bombshells dropped by Dr. James Lacatski, former director of AAWSAP, the largest acknowledged UFO investigation ever funded by the US government. Lacatski, a career DIA intelligence analyst and rocket scientist, recently released his third book based on the voluminous files and reports compiled during the groundbreaking AAWSAP efforts. Among the highlights dissected in this episode: Does Lacatski’s role as the counterintelligence officer for AAWSAP diminish his credibility? Did he reveal any hints about where the government has stashed the retrieved UFO that he personally witnessed? Is it likely he would be willing to share information with Congress? Why he considers AARO to be a disinformation and counterintelligence program rather than a UFO investigation? Why he decided to step forward to spill the beans, and what role Senator Harry Reid played in that decision. The co-hosts also note the wide range of reactions to the Lacatski interview - most positive, and a few from the usual assortment of constipated hecklers. CATCH UP ON THE DR. LACATSKI INTERVIEW PART 1 : https://youtu.be/Qu8pudJk_-A PART 2 : https://youtu.be/cggMuAjFJcI Pick up a copy of Dr. Lacatski’s NEW book titled Inside the U. S. Government Covert UFO Program: New Insights here : https://a.co/d/3IzB2HH GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ••• Watch Corbell's six-part UFO docuseries titled UFO REVOLUTION on TUBI here : ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://tubitv.com/series/300002259/tmz-presents-ufo-revolution/season-2⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Watch Knapp’s six-part UFO docuseries titled INVESTIGATION ALIEN on NETFLIX here : ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://netflix.com/title/81674441⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ••• You can now watch all of Corbell's movies for free on YouTube here : BOB LAZAR : AREA 51 & FLYING SAUCERS https://youtu.be/sZaE5rIavVA HUNT FOR THE SKINWALKER https://youtu.be/TczkJ6UAQ8A PATIENT SEVENTEEN https://youtu.be/gDVX0kRqXxE ••• For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠WeaponizedPodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59George Knapp?

  The largest acknowledged UFO investigation ever funded by the US government. Lacatski designed and managed OSAP.

• 1:07Jeremy Corbell?

  When I asked him about was he exposed to a legacy program? He answered with saying why clearances aren't classified. I could tell you that I had a Q clearance and I was like, listening to it after it, I was like, oh my gosh. He just answered it right there.

• 1:21George Knapp?

  Yeah, I saw that a lot of people missed that. Okay, he had a Q clearance, which means DOE.

• 1:27Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 1:28George Knapp?

  There's a lot of chatter over the last couple of years that DOE might be the home of these crash recovery efforts.

• 1:34Jeremy Corbell?

  I think people need to really pay attention to who Dr. Lacatski is, what his role was. I don't know that we have anybody who's had such a hands-on role, running the defense intelligence agencies, the world's largest that we know of UFO program of all time, coming out and talking about it in a very controlled manner.

• 1:56Speaker 04

  This is weaponized.

• 2:06George Knapp?

  This is Weaponized. I'm George Knapp in Las Vegas, joined by my friend and colleague Jeremy Corbell at Parts Unknown. How you doing?

• 2:12Jeremy Corbell?

  Good. How you doing, man?

• 2:13George Knapp?

  So a lot of chatter out there about our, our most recent guest on Weaponized, Dr. James Lacatski. Some of it pretty supportive and, and thankful that he came forward to share this information and a lot of it from the typical, expected sources, pretty negative. So I, what, what, before we jump into that, I want to mention an anniversary. Thirty-nine years ago this past week, Bob Lazar came forward. We dropped that story on KLAS, part of multiple, uh, part series, and the world exploded. And thirty-nine years later, we're still talking about the same kind of stuff. Do we have reverse engineering programs? Do we have, uh, crash retrieval programs? Do we have, uh, um, samples of technology from

• 2:55George Knapp?

  somewhere else that we may not have figured out yet? So, uh, tip of the hat out to Bob Lazar for sticking with this all these years and, and, uh, you know, he changed the world. Certainly changed Area 51 forever. That's for sure.

• 3:08Jeremy Corbell?

  Oh, he, yeah, he changed the world with what he said. I mean, he is the original whistleblower. You know, there was no congressional situation where he could talk, because we hadn't had hearings in, you know, forty years, whatever, or fifty years from now. So he didn't have an outlet, nor was he looking for it. Like, he came forward because, with you, because he was scared. And that's the thing that people really, I think, miss out of the stories, that he didn't come forward for altruistic reasons. He came forward because he felt he was in danger. And his story has changed the world. And now we're hearing it again in these, since 2017, in official capacity. You know, he still has hesitation to Congress. Like, why would I tell them? They've screwed me over. Everybody in government screwed me

• 3:51Jeremy Corbell?

  over. I get his perspective. But we're kind of living in a different world now where Congress is, is fighting to have oversight about these non-human intelligence exploitation programs.

• 4:02George Knapp?

  It's like, um, there's a very small gray area, but it's the whole world has chosen sides. I get letters, emails every single day, all these years later. I don't believe him because X, Y, Z.

• 4:15Jeremy Corbell?

  Great. Fine.

• 4:16George Knapp?

  Bye. I don't care anymore. I mean, for a long time, I answered the same questions over and over because Lazar himself wasn't making himself available to the public. So it comes to me, and I'm sure to you as well. Here's the problem I have. Great, fine, don't believe it. Doesn't matter. At this point, I don't think it matters at all in the big picture because he put not only Area 51 and S4 on the map, but generated intense public interest in the idea of crashed saucers and reverse engineering programs. And now that's blossomed quite a bit in the 39 ensuing years.

• 4:51Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, yeah. Archaeological digs, GIFs, crashed saucers, all this stuff. He did. It was your reporting with him and him coming forward through our pal back in the day, John Lear, oddly enough, where he actually got on camera with you for the first time. I can't believe it's been 39 years. I am excited that there's going to be another movie about him. I hope that we learn more. My movie was not trying to prove or disprove if Bob Lazar was telling the truth. It's trying to get to know the guy because that's what I wanted for myself selfishly. I wanted to know, was Bob Lazar telling the truth? The only way to really know is to get to know the guy over time. I came to the determination that he's telling it exactly like it happened, but not everybody can stand in my shoes. So

• 5:34Jeremy Corbell?

  my movie about it was kind of trying to take people in. And I think that's why it had an impact was because people were curious as I was, was, you know, who is this person, Bob Lazar? But now we're past that. You know, he was on Rogan. I think it's still the number one like viewed above Trump on YouTube on the Rogan podcast. That's pretty astounding. That means people are so curious about what he had to say because of the concept, the idea.

• 5:58George Knapp?

  Maybe Trump is pissed off about that. Maybe that's why he won't release all the UFO info and the files and things because Bob Lazar beat him on the Rogan podcast.

• 6:09Jeremy Corbell?

  I don't think so. I think sure I'm sure it will overtake at some point the Lazar episode, but we should hear more from Lazar. And yeah, you're right. It's such an interesting time because looking at that 39 years before, wow, that's incredible.

• 6:22George Knapp?

  Uh, let's talk about Jim Lukatsky. So yeah, a wide variety of opinions about him. It's a lot like what's happened with Lazar. People have have made up their mind either pro or con, uh, whether he can be trusted or not. So, uh, where do you want to take that? What what kind of reactions have come your way?

• 6:40Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, I mean, I see a whole bunch. I think that first of all, it's astounding that you got Dr. James Lukatsky to go on the news with you. Um, you're an affiliate of CBS. I mean, it's major news. It goes everywhere. And then the fact that he came on Weaponized two years after he came on. And look, it wasn't easy. This is not a guy jumping up with his hand raised, trying to get on news, you know, it's like pulling teeth. But you know, my appeal to him in a text we had was, hey, man, look, if you think this is so important and that people should hear it, the only way they're going to do that is if you talk about the book, your new book, and and you just do an interview. You have to do one, man. And I know that he has a, you know, personal situations that, you know, he limit

• 7:25Jeremy Corbell?

  him from that kind of thing. But wow, he really came swinging. We learned even more this time. The questions I hear from people, first of all, should we listen to Dr. Lukatsky? What did he say? And and the question is, because when you understand what he said, is he lying? I think we should address those things. So first and foremost, you know, should we listen to Dr. James Lukatsky on UFOs, on the fact or the idea that our government has at least one, he's admitted, and we breach the whole? Should we listen to him, George?

• 7:59George Knapp?

  I know a lot of people have noticed that he's talked about his role in counterintelligence as part of the OSAP program. And because they equate counterintelligence with lies, false info, cover stories, misdirection. Aha, he's putting out a bunch of false info a decade after he retired from government service. A, it's not him. He's not out there beating the bushes. He's talked to us, but that's pretty much it. He's telling the full story as much as he can in a series of books. And I was co-author on two of those, not on this one. And, you know, I remember the first time I met him, it was in 2018. The only reason he came forward, he was ticked off about how ATIP had been described in major

• 8:44George Knapp?

  media reports. And no mention had been given to the actual real program, the one that had a $22 million budget, lasted 27 months, and which put together the biggest UFO data warehouse in history, that had written all these papers that still have not been released. So Jim was a counterintelligence guy for OSAP. But in this role, he wasn't putting out cover stories or lies. He didn't put out anything. The world didn't hear that OSAP existed until years later, at least by that name. There was one statement made to the press about that program. It was by Robert Bigelow, whose company, Bass, got the contract.

• 9:26George Knapp?

  A week after he signed it, he came on with me on Coast to Coast AM and said, "We got this program dealing with UFOs. We have an unnamed partner and we're excited to get going." That was it. Jim Lekatsky wasn't putting out PR releases about OSAP. There was nothing. That was the last thing anybody said until the New York Times did the ATIP story. And then Jim Lekatsky felt the real story was being covered up. If not for that story about ATIP and the problems that he saw with it, he would never have mentioned this. I don't think ever. You'll recall. OSAP, at the time that things went downhill, that the funding was moved away, they were trying to make it into a SAP, a Special Access Program. And if it had happened, we probably would never have heard of it.

• 10:11George Knapp?

  If it had happened, Lou Elizondo would have been the counterintelligence guy for OSAP. They had already talked to Lukatsky. But Lukatsky is not proclaiming the greatness of the program. He's not out there beating the bushes on podcasts and newscasts other than with us. And he never put out a counterintelligence. His role, counterintelligence, meant something different for OSAP. The thing that DIA had told him was, look, you know, it's not a rogue program. I know it gets weird into some of the phenomena that was at Skinwalker Ranch and other places. We don't care. Here's what we care about. Don't let the secret out. We don't want to see this on the front page of the Washington Post. We want it kept secret. And so Jim Lukatsky took it on himself, put it in his own hands.

• 10:56George Knapp?

  He and Colm Kelleher interviewed all these people who applied for the jobs, the 50 full-time positions that they staffed in a matter of months. They did background checks. They required security clearances for all those people. And they were worried about leaks. They didn't want information to get out. They also were concerned about espionage by foreign players, by foreign companies, things of that sort. And some of that really did happen. As Jim has shared with us, there were a couple of phones that were transmitters that were found inside Bigelow Aerospace, inside the Bigelow facilities. And it was very alarming because they weren't sure who was doing it. I think they think it was a foreign government.

• 11:40George Knapp?

  I'm not going to say which one they suspected the most. But, and then they also found weird frequencies emanating from Skinwalker Ranch. That's not strange, and there's a lot of unusual stuff that happens there. But it was some sort of an espionage program that they believed was not only looking at the ranch, but also at mass. That was his primary concern. He was worried that the story gets out because secrecy was paramount, of paramount interest to the heads of DIA. And he's worried about the information getting out to the public. Because once it happened and the knives come out in the Pentagon and within the intelligence community, which is kind of what happened. A memo was sent from Harry Reid's office. Let other people know that OSAP existed.

• 12:25George Knapp?

  And that's when things started getting problematic.

• 12:27Jeremy Corbell?

  The bugging thing, so it's not just like Bigelow Aerospace was tapped with something. He said specifically OSAP, right? So they were looking at that new UFO program. And I don't know how public this is, but he did say it was not just him. Other people have also said it was multiple nations, multiple different devices from those phones. So you have to look, and he also said that they worked with FBI to, they had FBI liaisons looking at the ranch property and also at Bigelow Aerospace. Because remember, they were supposed to receive a transfer of materials. That's why they reverse engineered, you know, they built everything to be able to hold SCIF capable and material capable property at that classification level.

• 13:12Jeremy Corbell?

  So, look, I think if we pull it back, the whole idea is James Lukatsky made a statement at some point that he was, you know, head of or part of or running the counterintelligence for OSAP. But his point was to keep OSAP itself secret from foreign nations. So then he has to keep it secret from the US. He did it. He did a great job. They actually kept it secret. That doesn't mean he's going out and creating false information to the public like he's been accused of. So should we listen to Jim Lukatsky? That was like, you know, the main question. Oh, one second. He also identified that there is currently a counter program and counterintelligence operation going on.

• 13:55Jeremy Corbell?

  To the American public, but not against the American public by Arrow. That was so clear in our interview with him that he said that, you know, look, they're acting this way. They are telling you lies about ASAP and, and, and what's, what happened. And that that's why he said, my books, I'm a government employee. This is paid by taxpayers. I'm trying to give you information and, and that's what his books are. So it's clear from these rounds of interviews that we just had with Dr. Lacatski that he supports a controlled UFO disclosure. He made that very clear. So should we listen to, to what he has to say? I mean, he was a big dog, right, George?

• 14:34George Knapp?

  He was the head of the largest US government funded UFO investigation in history that we know of.

• 14:43George Knapp?

  He worked with Callum Kelleher, uh, who was the, the guy, the boots on the ground guy in Las Vegas. They worked with Jay Stratton. Stratton's role in the development of ASAP has not been really fully explored, but he's got a book coming out at some point, once it gets through the Dobbs process. But then we'll get additional information to buttress what Lacatski has said. I think they, the way it was explained to me is within DIA, they both had their areas of influence where they're watching stuff and developments in their fields. Jim's was missile defense, uh, foreign technology that might become a threat. And for both of them, Stratton and Lacatski, they started seeing these reports of UFOs involving our national security,

• 15:25George Knapp?

  appearing over the crown jewels of our national defense system. They put their heads together and figured out, we need to look into this. We need to put something together. Lacatski reads the book about the hunt for the skinwalker, which by the way, the 20th anniversary is coming up here in, in a, a week or so. And, uh, and then he passes it off to Jay, who reads it while he's stationed in Iraq. And I thought, oh, that's pretty interesting, that place. The funny side story is Jim had said after ASAP is up and running, they're on the ranch with personnel, doing intensive investigations in the whole UN to basin. He would have DIA colleagues in the desks next to him say, hey, this skinwalker ranch place is pretty weird. We maybe, maybe we should look into it.

• 16:06George Knapp?

  They had no idea that he already had a program up and running and had 50 full-time employees. Because it, it was kept very, so narrow, so siloed. The only people who knew. Were the two top guys at DIA and and Lukatsky and Stratton. So, you know, he did a pretty good job of keeping a lid on it for as long as they could. I know that I when I met him is 2018. It was St. Patrick's Day 2018. I had the invitation from Senator Harry Reid to go to DC to meet somebody. I had heard Jim Lukatsky's name here and there toward the end of OSAP. I never said anything about it. What could I say? But he, you know, you'd hear his name sort of whispered. That nobody was spilling the beans to me about the OSAP program. I was friends with

• 16:50George Knapp?

  those guys, so I'd pick up tidbits, but I heard his name mentioned here or there. And then I get the invitation from Reid to go meet somebody and I figured out who it was going to be. And the story that that Lukatsky dropped on me that day, holy cow. I mean, it just blew my mind. I had never heard of OSAP. I knew that it had some kind of a name, you know, and I had read the stories in the Times and thought, wow, so that's was the name of this thing that we couldn't talk about is ATIP. And he gave me the download of all downloads that day and just completely changed the narrative that the public had been told up to that point. He's a real deal. He's not a liar. I can't know. Now, anybody looks at what he said and thinks he's a liar, but he's very careful.

• 17:32George Knapp?

  He's scrupulous. And if he makes an agreement and makes a promise to the government, to Dobser, to his agency, that he will not tell things beyond what he's authorized to tell, he sticks to it. I mean, you did your best to try to get more information, squeeze it out of him, beat him up a little bit, and and try to get him to say more about the recovered disk or the gifted disk or wherever it was. And how do we know it flies? That kind of stuff. But he wouldn't budge. And he's not going to budge. I mean, I think when he decided that he was going to make information public about OSAP, he developed a plan about how much could be released in what stages. And and eventually, he wanted to release all of it, at least some kind of a, some kind of a controlled

• 18:16George Knapp?

  release. It is a form of disclosure, whether people like it or not. You know, if you're holding your breath, waiting for the president or Department of War to say something about this, you're going to be holding it a long time. But he's here. He is giving that information in a sequenced way and a well planned out strategy, and people bitch and moan about it. If he hadn't come forward to share this information, we would never know any of it.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 19:12Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, it's a shocking series of admissions that Dr. Lakatsky made like on our show, like an atomic bomb. Two years ago, having somebody like him admitting that we have a UFO and NHI craft. We're not talking something built from Russia or China or something we even built. There'd be no point in us saying it. He is talking about, we know this from our private conversations, also his comments on Weaponized. He's talking about an NHI, non-human intelligence built craft. We're not going into where it's from because maybe we don't know, but it's not a craft made by modern humans and that it's in government possession and that we breached the hole. And that by breaching the hole, you're admitting a reverse engineering program.

• 19:54Jeremy Corbell?

  He even kind of doubled down and said, well, if we were interested, we would be interested in the power and the propulsion. I was like, well, I'd be interested where they are from. That would be my interest. But he was really clearly saying because of his background in plasma physics and his background as a scientist and rocket engineer, you know, he's saying his part or their interest was the propulsion of this craft. So, so bottom line, as a counterintelligence coordinator for ASAP, this does not mean that he's a spook giving disinformation to the American public. Quite the contrary, he's gone out of his way to try to explain as much as he can what ASAP studied.

• 20:37Jeremy Corbell?

  A few things really shocked me in this last interview, George. So I remember asking him if he would deny legacy UFO program exposure before, prior to his OSAP program, which presumably where he received access to the UFO that he's talking about was before OSAP because OSAP never dealt with hard, physical UFOs, the actual machines they were trying to. That was the effort of Kona Blue, but OSAP itself didn't have access to a craft. So when he says he saw one, I was like, assuming it's gotta be before OSAP. And, and he ultimately on many levels confirmed that to me, right? I feel that is confirmed to me.

• 21:20Jeremy Corbell?

  He didn't deny, he didn't deny that he was part of a legacy program. He actually, I talked over him, but that was kind of my method. That was my approach at the time. I was trying to push him a little bit, but I heard him in the replays. When I asked him about, was he exposed to a legacy program? He answered with saying, why clearances aren't classified. I could tell you that I had a Q clearance and I was like, listening to it after. I was like, oh my gosh, he just answered it right there.

• 21:47George Knapp?

  Yeah, I saw that a lot of people missed that. Okay, he had a Q clearance, which means DOE.

• 21:53Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 21:54George Knapp?

  There was a lot of chatter over the last couple of years that DOE, because of its rigid security systems and, and non-disclosure standards, might be the home of these crash recovery efforts. I don't know if it's a program and I'm not sure that it was before OSAP or, or where it happened in his career. But at some point he got to see this thing. He had a Q clearance. That tells me that whatever he saw could likely be somewhere hidden in DOE. And maybe it's not a program, maybe it's a contract or something like that. It's, it's hidden with a contractor who's been stashing it away. I don't know, some names come to mind, a possible suspect, but you know, that was a, that was a pretty big bomb that really, I think most people missed. But you, you and I got it.

• 22:37Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, we, I heard, but you know, so to put it into, into context for, for people, only 1% of federal employees have, have a Q clearance and Q clearances, typically they deal with scientific or nuclear information. So like power sources. I remember back in the day Lazar was talking about a queue clearance. I had no idea what that was. But it's it's way above, you know, top secret in that literally 1% of the federal workforce has a queue clearance. I looked up all the stats the other day, just interested about it. They go through your financials, you know, foreign contacts, they do psych evaluations. Like you have to be a pretty big baller to get a proper queue clearance.

• 23:18Jeremy Corbell?

  But that would make sense if if he saw this UFO in a program prior to OSAP. And it was required a queue clearance to see it. That would very much track with what we understand about the UFO topic and its relation to weapons of mass destruction.

• 23:36George Knapp?

  I I saw a lot of comments, well, I'm not buying a book. You should just release all this immediately. I don't want to see it in a book. You should just spill everything. So I guess the attitude is if if he can't tell everything he knows, he shouldn't say anything. And people don't want to buy a book. They want it all. Did they even listen to what he said? OSAP's work product was about 30,000 pages of notes from the investigators. That was condensed down to do about 7,500 pages. That became the reports that were submitted to DIA. 115 or something like that, reports to DIA. Not one of those reports has been released. DIA can't find them, which is we can. That's another topic to discuss.

• 24:22George Knapp?

  You know, 30,000 pages down to 7,500 that comprise those reports. So putting it in a condensed form so people could understand it. I mean, who's going to read 30,000 pages? And then the books take it down even further. The four books could be something like 1,200 pages, I think he said. That's the form that he's using to share the information with the public. What do they want him to do? Read all 30,000 pages on camera? How many weeks of time would that take for him to get through all that stuff? So, you know, the idea that you got to tell me everything or I don't want to hear anything. I'm going to hold my breath and suck my thumb and sit in the corner. It's preposterous. And then, you know, people don't think that somebody who works all this time, years at this stuff and putting in a form that we can understand

• 25:05George Knapp?

  can sell a book and make, I'm telling you, nobody's getting rich selling UFO books. Maybe Whitley Strieber did well years ago, but. And especially if you have three co-authors splitting the meager profits that you get. So, you know, the people who complain about that, it's outrageous that he's written a book. Well, okay, welcome to the fight, comrade. In our socialist collective here, we don't believe that people should be able to make a living for their work.

• 25:33Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah.

• 25:33George Knapp?

  Plumbers and truck, do the plumbers and truck drivers out there not get paid for the work that they do? Are they grifters because they're getting a salary for driving trucks? You know, it's, it's stupid.

• 25:43Jeremy Corbell?

  I, I'm just excited that, that he spent the energy trying to bring and, and consolidate this information, you know, for a controlled disclosure to the American public. I think people need to really pay attention to who Dr. Lukatsky is, what his role was. I don't know that we have anybody who's had such a hands-on role running the defense intelligence agencies, the, the world's largest that we know of, UFO program of all time, coming out and talking about it in a very controlled manner. The exact kind of guy you want in a position like that to keep national security interest. You know, look, I saw the craziest shit online, George. I saw some idiot saying that it was a scripted interview. Scripted?

• 26:26Jeremy Corbell?

  I can't, we barely have notes before an episode, right? I, I know Lukatsky, as you said, was like reading something at the beginning because he was kind of saying what he could say to Congress. But that, that is such a ridiculous and idiotic point of view when it comes to when we're interviewing like somebody like Dr. Lukatsky. We don't tell him not a word of what we're going to ask him before. We don't even know what he's going to answer. We're trying like everybody else to get as much information as we can from a friend like that. We're really pushing them, trying to get information. So it's just like, it's funny, man. All these roadblocks to listening to what he said, you know, oh, it was scripted or he's a counterintelligence guy. Hold, hold on, how about just listen to what he said?

• 27:11Jeremy Corbell?

  It's the first government official saying it. We've got a UFO and we're reverse engineering it and we breach the whole.

• 27:16George Knapp?

  So, so you don't get the script from Arrow? Cause they send me one every, every month. I quibble about some of the statements they want me to make, but you know, I get the full script. I'll start sending it to you.

• 27:26Jeremy Corbell?

  I'm sure, I'm sure they'd try, man. If we'd read it, I'm sure they'd try.

• 27:29George Knapp?

  Maybe that particular person who made that remark, who is our most loyal listener, by the way, doesn't miss an episode. Um, maybe he's talking about the bigger picture that we live in a, that free will is not real. It doesn't exist. That we live in a, you know, in a created reality and everything is scripted. Our, we have a destiny that's predetermined before, maybe that's what he means.

• 27:51Jeremy Corbell?

  Speaking of idiots, um, I saw online as well that someone was trying to proclaim that Dr. Lacatski was part of a crash retrieval program in Brazil with Lou Elizondo. And it's just, it's absolute nonsense. I actually texted to Lacatski in the group, you know, just saying, hey, you know, what's up with this? And he's like hogwash, total bullshit. Um, you know, maybe it comes from the fact that, that ASAP did talk with General Ochoa and did study what was going on where you went. Uh, you went to Corales, but there's, there's no crash retrieval. ASAP did not specifically obtain any crash retrievals. It's just made up. It's just made up.

• 28:37George Knapp?

  I also saw a writer try to slime Jim, uh, quoting somebody who says, everybody knows he's crazy. Well, really, I guess DIA didn't because he was, had a longer distinguished career. They trusted, entrusted him with the biggest UFO study of all time. They apparently didn't know he was crazy. I, I know that they, the source of that quote, the alleged source didn't say it. And, um, and some of the other details that were in that little attack piece, uh, were, were made up. It's amazing how people get away with this stuff.

• 29:08Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, yeah. Online. And that's what Jim Lacatski was talking about, saying online, people with absolute zero authority say things with authority and try to cloud the waters, you know, and it is part of a cover up, whether official or unofficial, this noise, this bullshit that is very intentional. These are intentional lies. Again, Dr. Lacatski, part of getting your Q clearance is a deep psychological eval. As you said, the guy has been a patriotic hero within DIA for an entire career. So it's, it's got to be pretty ridiculous to have these online people just saying stupid things that aren't even true to try to diminish you. I hope he doesn't read that stuff. I don't think he does. Um, but it's pretty ridiculous.

• 29:49George Knapp?

  You know, he was already pretty clear about Arrow, too. I mean, you know, without being a simple one-sentence declaration of what they are, it became pretty clear in the two interviews that we've done that he thinks that they are basically a debunker organization, that that's their job. They're the ones doing counterintelligence. I mean, he's only mad because they, you know, they vow that they're not going to spill the beans about any of these interviews that they do. And then their former bosses, the two head guys, spill everything about it. They debunk every case, they dismiss every witness, they spill the beans about things that were supposed to be kept confidential. And I think that's the only part of it that bothers Jim Mikatsky, because he sees them as they're doing their job, right?

• 30:32George Knapp?

  That's what he said to us, they're doing their job, which is making the public creating doubt, getting the major media platforms to back off, and probably trying to confuse Congress about their ongoing inquiries.

• 30:43Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, so that is a big, so he did directly identify Arrow. Look, I would love if Arrow was doing a genuine job and all this, but we're seeing at least the former heads come out and talk absolute nonsense about programs they know nothing about. And it completely contradicts what Dr. Mikatsky has come forward and said. Like, in your news report, your recent news report, he did confirm two things, that we are not dealing with human-made tech, and we are in a race for mastering the technology with other adversarial nations so we can exploit reverse engineer and work on these technologies. I mean, he admitted that in your news report, the way that you got that out of him.

• 31:28Jeremy Corbell?

  So if that's the case, he's just identifying that there is an agenda to dissuade the American public from understanding the reality of non-human intelligence craft.

• 31:41Jeremy Corbell?

  That's what he's talking about. There's no such thing as a reverse engineering. OSAP was studying ghosts. They're trying to, you know, pretend that it wasn't an official DIA program about national security to weaponize these technologies. To be honest, that's he admitted it. That that's what they're trying to do is weaponize the the UAP technologies.

• 31:59George Knapp?

  I got a rolling cat in here making some noise. Yeah, I want to address that, too, about the werewolves and poltergeists. That's the that's the go to line for the people who want to totally debunk what OSAP was. It was a UFO investigation. It was primarily, I mean, Senator Harry Reid, the guy who got the money for it, said it was a UFO investigation. Robert Bigelow, who got the contract and headed up BASS, he said it was a UFO investigation. Jim Lekatsky, the man who co-designed the program and oversaw it, he said it was. Colm Kelleher, the guy who is the on the ground manager of the BASS program here in Las Vegas, he said it was. You know, Jay Stratton, we're about to hear from him soon. And I'm pretty sure he's going to say the same thing. But they were clever enough to

• 32:43George Knapp?

  follow the evidence. I mean, they made a point to get approval from DIA going into it, that they would, we would monitor the health effects of UFOs on on private citizens. And that's where all the poltergeist werewolf stuff came. Because from the beginning, whether people want to admit it or not, UFO encounters have a side effect of people seeing paranormal phenomena. Explaining it, it doesn't make much sense. There's no investigator for any government agency who's happy to be there and see some dino beaver or werewolf and take it home with them, have the hitchhiker effect. Nobody wants to say that. You'd sound crazy. But they did say it because it happened. And it happened multiple times, basically to everybody who went to the ranch and

• 33:25George Knapp?

  spent any time there at all. And it would follow them home. In the in the interview that we did for KLS, I have a piece coming out in about a week about the paranormal aspect. You know, because they were able to study the health effects, they also got into the psychological effects. And and there was an assumption that maybe some of this weird things that people were seeing around the ranch was a was designed, but was a either a

• 33:50George Knapp?

  Subtle counter effect that was unexpected, or it was a technology that somebody is using to scare the crap out of people. And if it was a weapon system like that, DIA wanted in. So it was perfectly normal for them to follow the evidence where it led. And where it led was amazing places. I mean, the, the things that happened on the ranch, the investigators are one thing, but they started going out into the Uinta Basin in this ever widening circle to interview witnesses. And, you know, people would be willing to talk about seeing UFOs, some, most of them. But they were very reluctant to get into the weirder stuff. And finally, if you pursue it long enough, they'll admit, you know, Kenneth Ardel, we've talked about it before, the first guy, the first guy to see the kickoff, the modern UFO wave, he didn't just see nine craft

• 34:34George Knapp?

  flying in the sky over Washington state, he went home and all the same kind of stuff that's happened to, to the OSAP personnel who visited the ranch was happening to him. Poltergeist type stuff. Doesn't mean it's actual ghosts or spirits. It's some entity that can, that messes around with people's heads. And he had it. And I think some of the Tic Tac aviators had it. And, and it certainly has happened to most of the people who visited Skinwalker Ranch. So anyway, I'm going to be going into that, but it's, it's a benefit to try to figure this stuff out. It's not just seeing UFOs in the sky. It's the measuring the counter effects from people who get up too close.

• 35:12Jeremy Corbell?

  I mean, and to double down, even though I hate doing it, to double down on your point, just because this for me, this is so out there and I have this like guttural resistance to it. Man, I gotta tell you, I took a report from a guy from a critical infrastructure facility who saw a disc. And the guy does not want to go public. He's high kind of, I guess, ranking in his job, but gave me a full documented disclosure of what happened at one of his bases. And it was a, it was a disc that came down, looked like a star, it was wobbling. He's walking to his car, the disc drops down right over this, I'll say, energy facility,

• 35:52Jeremy Corbell?

  like a very critical part of the energy facility, had this golden hue, almost felt sentient. Where have we heard this before? From like everybody, from Dylan and so on. But, you know, it had this gold wash. It's a very dramatic thing that I'll talk about in detail at another time. Hopefully we can get the person to come forward at some later date in his future when he's retired. But here's the kicker. So he has this first time ever UFO encounter of a hard, physical disc that comes over a sensitive installation. Critical infrastructure. And I said, is that everything? And he's like, well, kinda. I go, what do you mean? Because I can't explain it. I don't want to talk about it. I'm like, what do you mean?

• 36:32Jeremy Corbell?

  That one night when that person went home, they had what I can only call paranormal experiences. One time only in their life, that night, very dramatic. Imagine like a lot of things moving all at one time, right? So, so that was an issue for, for the individual who's like an engineer is, is saying to me, I have this really defined thing that, that happened. Then I have this other thing. I just don't understand what it means, but it seemed to be connected. And, and George, I hate taking those reports because you gotta, you gotta take all, you gotta take all the information, what they said. And even they were uncomfortable with that. So I can't deny there appears to be some connection between the two. But to bring you back to your original point as well.

• 37:18Jeremy Corbell?

  OSAP was a UFO program. If people just read the books that Dr. Lukatsky put out, he, he shows you exactly what was in the contract, what they were looking for. One thing really stood out on X and also to me from his book. Two of the things that he, that Dr. Lukatsky put and, and, and he said arranged. So you could really see what the program is about was this. One, determine what has been learned from crash debris evaluations and seek new ways to apply that information. Two, determine what has gone wrong in our attempts to fly loaned or captured craft. Now remember they're not talking about China.

• 38:03Jeremy Corbell?

  They're not talking about Russia. They're talking about UFOs. So it's right there in print, part of what they were doing.

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• 39:12George Knapp?

  Two things. One is on the topic of back to counterintelligence efforts for a moment. Jim had said in both of these recent interviews, you know, the internet is like a place where it's covered in gasoline. And, you know, people come on to debunk it like Arrow, and it's like throwing a match into it, you know? It's easy to do. The, the structure is there to debunk everything. All you gotta do is, you know, light the match. And I thought that was a kind of an interesting thing because it's happened to him now. It's, it's happening right now. Attempts to dismiss him because of scurrilous rumors or allegations that have no basis. I also wanted to mention about nuclear. So he shares some things that I think have gone over people's heads.

• 39:56George Knapp?

  You know, one of the OSAP projects, subprograms, was what they called the Northern Tier project. Looking into those UFO encounters with American nuclear missile bases along the US Canadian border back in the 70s. And I know in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, they had talked to Colonel Barry Hennessy, the former head of AFOSI, who said, yeah, we've done some tests with personnel at those and other bases, but these things were not ours. And Jim had said, yeah, those things happened a long time ago, and we did do a project and a report and a paper for OSAP, but there's been a more recent incident, real recent, involving one of our nuclear facilities.

• 40:38George Knapp?

  I'm assuming it's weapons, but I don't know for sure if it's a missile silos or weapons lab or something like that. But he said there was something pretty, pretty amazing in a more recent times, not the 70s. He also, I was wondering if it might fit into the information you had shared about Texas and the recent events there.

• 40:54Jeremy Corbell?

  I, I don't know. I'm still trying to get more information on that. Again, multiple independent sources corroborated, you know, that would, in a position to know. We know that they, that it happened, but I don't think it's the same as anything Dr. Lacatski was talking about because he wasn't aware of that incident. It's so fresh. I mean, it's so fresh, what, like a month and a half, two months ago now? So hopefully we learn more about it. Um, I don't know.

• 41:18George Knapp?

  I know a lot of people would ask, well, why is he allowed to say this stuff? You know, I, I think he probably, and I'm not, I'm just guessing on this. I think he was, he's probably negotiated some of it. DIA doesn't want to do it. The public has been besieging that agency with requests for the reports. Either they can't find them or, or aren't trying very hard, or somebody burned them there. I mean, there are forums where it exists, we know that for sure, outside of DIA. The DOCSER process, I don't think most people understand how it works, but you know, it took 14 months for Skinwalkers at the Pentagon to get through DOCSER. Part of the, the, the length of that was because COVID was happening, so people were working from home, but at 14 months is a long time.

• 42:01George Knapp?

  And they, you know, the process is any agency that's involved with the content of a, of a book, they get to weigh in on it. And I know that they, they Xed out a lot of names and specifics and locations for incidents that are reported in that book, and they were not on, they were not happy about a few other things. And the same for the second book as well, which only took, I think, seven months. But you you look at now, I know Jim was kind of ticked off when he realized that Arrow was somehow involved in looking at his book and and and approving it. Uh, but of course, they are the agency of record on UFO stuff right now. I can't imagine why CIA allowed him to say something about we've got a craft somewhere.

• 42:43George Knapp?

  But I suspect maybe he negotiated that. All right, I'm gonna say, I want to say that we've got a craft. I'm not saying where it is, or when I saw it, or what it could do, or how we obtained it. But I want to be able to say, we got one. And um, and they said, okay, I think probably because by saying that, which most people assume to be true anyway, you're not endangering any national security. And maybe it sends a message to our adversaries that, hey, we're we're working on this. You know, they know, of course, they know we are. Russia knows we are. China knows we are. You know, it's no secret to them. They have considerable resources to look into this stuff. So I don't see how making that simple, vague admission hurts national security.

• 43:23George Knapp?

  And I suspect that Jim worked a long time to get that through the DOPs or process.

• 43:29Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, I mean, again, I go back to the fact that we are being allowed to know that reverse engineering of non-terrestrial, non-human intelligence craft is real. UFOs are real. That is now being allowed from CIA, DIA, all the way, ODNI, everybody is basically saying, we're gonna allow you to know UFOs are real. So it doesn't surprise me that that part of his book was allowed to be told. I'm sure he did negotiate to to some degree to get that out. But again, it's it's just a huge admission. It's it's an atom bomb of of an admission. It's it's an admission of the century in my eyes as far as UFO disclosure goes. Um, you know, should be mainstream news if people understood who Dr. Lacatski was. But that's not the way the news works.

• 44:13Jeremy Corbell?

  Um, another thing he said that I thought was so important, that really eliminates this being another craft from China or Russia. He says, the technology is very advanced. And I go, well, what does that mean to you? Like, I understand those are your words. What does it mean to you? And I said, is it like sticks and stones versus superconductors advanced? And he answered, absolutely. So he's talking about a technology that is from sticks and stones to superconductors different in advancement of that craft that he was able to to to check out. So I think that's important to really drive in that he is looking for a controlled disclosure. He was authorized to say we have a craft. It is okay for us to know that at this point.

• 44:56Jeremy Corbell?

  I wonder what else is going to come out like, could he testify? Again, I'll just say this, I've put him in touch with Congress directly by phone number again, because I'm sure there's a big part of him, if they have the clearances to hear what he has to say, he would be happy to be able to tell them under those authorities, under those clearances. So hopefully in the future, he can have like a back door or a closed door briefing.

• 45:25George Knapp?

  Yeah, I would say his, his view on that has changed quite a bit from when I first got to know him. You know, he, he was a, he was a keeper of secrets. That was his job. You know, to quote Gandalf, Lord of the Rings, keep it secret, keep it safe. That's kind of what he was doing for all sap.

• 45:42George Knapp?

  You know, I, I think that he had a pretty dim view of Congress back in then, back then, when we first started talking.

• 45:48Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 45:49George Knapp?

  Because he worried that if you tell Congress, you're telling our adversaries because it would leak. Somebody would spill the beans.

• 45:55Jeremy Corbell?

  He's not wrong.

• 45:56George Knapp?

  I think some of the hearings, some of the witnesses have appeared at the hearings, have kind of changed his mind about it. And he could see some value in trying to share information with members of Congress or staff, perhaps not a public hearing, but a closed door briefing. If, as you said, if they had the proper clearances to hear it.

• 46:14Jeremy Corbell?

  Right, I mean, we've all been curious of not just if UFOs are real, that's been admitted to you, but do we have an exploitation program? And he talks about being able to see a craft and more than that, but being able to be around a craft that is not from earth, not from here, as long as a non-human intelligence made it. And you got to, he's got to know where he was when he was with this craft. That is something Congress wants to know is where's the, where are these exploitation programs? So you figure he could tell them, it's just a matter of clearance. I really hope they get to that point because there's a lot of, that's the big question. Are we reverse engineering these craft?

• 46:54Jeremy Corbell?

  Remember, his whole point of, of, of all sap was to weaponize the technology for our advantage. So clearly there are, so if he could tell them, that would be a huge step forward.

• 47:04George Knapp?

  Well, he was way ahead of his time when he says we need to weaponize it because that's a great title, wouldn't you say?

• 47:09Jeremy Corbell?

  It is great. Hey, man, talking about things that are coming out soon. I do want to talk about Jay Stratton because his book will be coming out. And I'm for one very curious. I know even Dr. Lukatsky is excited about his book coming out. Like, what is he gonna say? What is he gonna get away with, you know, talking about? But also, he's in that movie, Age of Disclosure, right? So we went and saw, Dan Farah invited us to go to, to, to see that movie in Austin. We got to see the premiere of it. Will it, will it move the needle? A lot of people are saying this is disclosure. It's gonna change everything. And then other people are like, oh, it's gonna not change anything. I, I, I think it's in between. I think it's, it's really powerful that we have all these people humming in, in harmony

• 47:52Jeremy Corbell?

  about the core issue and it's on the screen, the movie screen. Jay Stratton will be in the movie and a bunch of other people we know. I think it's important to listen to them. People are so excited for the movie, which I think is really good. But I think what's most important is the way it's absorbed by the public. I do think it's gonna make a difference. I think it's really important.

• 48:12George Knapp?

  I agree. I mean, just the weight of all that testimony of these heavy hitters. Lou Elizondo is there with Jay Stratton in the movie of the former CIA heads who, you know, in previous years may have just dismissed the whole thing and, and discredited the idea that we have crash saucers. But they, when you hear all that testimony back to back, including with witnesses who've seen these things for themselves, it's pretty powerful. I think the, you know, it doesn't have a crash saucer in it. It doesn't have an alien body. So there'd be people who are gonna gripe about it. The same gripes that they put on X every single day of their lives. But it moves the needle for me. And I, I think that the best we can hope for is it moves the needle for people in the executive branch

• 48:57George Knapp?

  who have hidden these programs, who know about them, who are looking for an off ramp. Maybe even the contractors would, would be moved by this. But, um, yeah, people should see it. It's, it's, uh, it's weighty stuff.

• 49:08Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, I think it's another kind of link to this whole thing we're calling disclosures. This formal admission in a way. You have all these people within position to know that are formally on film. They are, you know, putting their careers, you know, on the line and they're saying this is true. This happened. I don't see it as some big like psyop. I think we're being allowed to know that UFO phenomenon is is real. I think there's going to be a cap to that and a limit to that. And I think things like videos coming out are a little bit harder to deal with because those are like leaks. This is an official thing where these people come forward in this movie. So I do think it's going to make a difference. I do think it's important, but I don't think it's like the one all and be all.

• 49:50Jeremy Corbell?

  I think it's just a big step forward and I think that's really important.

• 49:55George Knapp?

  Agreed.

• 49:56Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah. Well, thanks, man. Thanks for breaking down the Lukatsky interview. Anything else about your buddy Jim Lukatsky you want people to know because he's a good dude?

• 50:04George Knapp?

  He's a solid guy. I mean, he's careful. He's ultra careful about what he says. That's the engineer brain in there and it's a big brain, too. He's worked hard on this stuff. He took it seriously. He put his his career and his reputation on the line to take it, take it seriously and did some great work. And if you can look at him, watching those two episodes of Weaponized and think that he's making it all up or it's a counterintelligence operation 10 years after he retired, you've got to do some soul searching because I find it would be very credible. His work with Jay Stratton, with Colin Kelleher, with Robert Bigelow is solid and it it is a difference maker. And, you know, people want to complain that they have to read a book. Well, don't buy it.

• 50:49George Knapp?

  You know, we're sharing as much as we can. Lukatsky has done these interviews and spilled what beans he can. If you don't want to buy a book, don't. But if you want to know more about it, check it out.

• 50:59Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, either way, they're going to have to put what he said in their pipe and smoke it, baby, because it's been done, said now. So, all right, man. Well, thanks so much.

• 51:07George Knapp?

  Talk to you soon.