Danielle LaPorte On Becoming Your Own Guru

From fire walks to ice baths and juice cleanses to intermittent fasting, silent retreats, talk therapy and everything in between, the world of personal development is limitless. And that's not counting all the podcasts, audiobooks, online courses, weekend seminars, weeklong symposiums, webinar tutorials and mastermind intensives that can occupy a well-intentioned seeker dawn to dusk for the next 10,000 years. Beyond the overwhelm, the self-help universe is fraught with snake oil slinging charlatans obfuscating truth from fiction — and all too often salvation from predation. Efforts to divine truth from bullshit render imperfect results. Anxiety ensues. To cope, we double down on improving upon our self-improvement until we wake up one day and realize what began as a laudable quest for growth has suddenly become an obsessive malignancy — a sort of spiritual eating disorder gnawing away on our very soul. Danielle LaPorte has been there. And she's got a message for you: You're the answer to your question. Named to Oprah’s inaugural SuperSoul 100, Entrepreneur magazine calls Danielle equal parts poet and entrepreneurial badass. I call her a powerful force of nature — a teacher, a leader and a mom who also happens to be a lauded public speaker, multiple bestselling author and doyenne of blogging for millions at DanielleLaPorte.com, which Forbes calls the best place online for kickass spirituality. Honest, accessible and authentic to the core, Danielle's books include The Fire Starter Sessions: A Soulful + Practical Guide to Creating Success on Your Own Terms* and The Desire Map: A Guide to Creating Goals with Soul*. Her newest book, which hits shelves everywhere May 16 and is available for pre-order now, is entitled White Hot Truth: Clarity for Keeping It Real on Your Spiritual Path from One Seeker to Another*. A high recommend, it's a fun and accessible rollercoaster ride through the machinations of personal growth, the pitfalls of spiritual glamour and the self-criticism that too often accompanies self-help to deliver a powerful edict: you are your own guru. A beacon of compassion, Danielle is an extraordinary human. A woman devoted to helping people transcend their limitations, access their potential, and truly self-actualize. It was an honor to finally sit down with her and talk it all out. This is a fun, deep and deeply fun dive into Danielle’s divine path. It's an exploration of self-help adventures gone wrong and the breakthroughs that make it all worth it. It's about what happens when spirituality becomes a to do list. And why sometimes we have to fall for lies in order to discover our truth. Ultimately, it's not how you seek spiritual growth, it's why you seek it. Answer this, and you are on the path to becoming your own guru. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  I'm really suggesting you should examine everything you're doing to be a better person, because you might be doing it obsessively. And you might want to actually leave all of your practices and then come back to them on your own terms. I want you to respect your own opinions and get down into that place of self-compassion, where you're really loving yourself while you're really hating yourself, because that's where the medicine happens. And then, and this is just my own agenda, very open about this, I would really love it if you got off your ass and you gave selflessly to the world.

• 1:42Rich Roll?

  That's Danielle LaPorte, this week, on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:56Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. The whole self-help world, the self-help landscape can be really tricky to navigate. It's disorienting, it's fraught with landmines, and there's literally no end to the amount of time, energy, and money that you could possibly invest in your so-called personal development. Everything from fire walks to ice baths, juice cleanses, intermittent fasting, from silent retreats to talk therapy, colonics, cryotherapy, Reiki, Tantra, on and on and on. And beyond the countless disciplines, there are also enough podcasts, of which this is one, I suppose, for better or worse, audiobooks, online courses, weekend seminars,

• 2:38Rich Roll?

  week-long symposiums, mastermind intensives, to occupy you from dawn to dusk for, I don't know, the next 10,000 years, led by more than a few gurus of questionable qualifications and perhaps even more questionable motives. So I think it's fair to say it's enough to make even the most well-intentioned seeker feel so overwhelmed that it's not surprising that so often the reaction is anxiety. This quest to better ourselves is actually working at cross-purposes with our desired result. This desire to improve on self-improvement

• 3:19Rich Roll?

  suddenly becomes an unhealthy obsession. I'm Rich Roll. This is my podcast. Thanks for listening. And this week, I'm super pleased to sit down with the amazing Danielle LaPorte to explore the aforementioned issues, the potential and actual conflict that exists between genuine spiritual aspiration on the one hand, this thirst for growth, and an unhealthy compulsion to improve on the other hand. So if you're one of the few people that doesn't know who Danielle is, who is Danielle Laporte? Well, Danielle was named to Oprah's inaugural Super Soul 100. She's been dubbed, quote, "equal parts poet and entrepreneurial badass" by Entrepreneur Magazine. She's

• 4:03Rich Roll?

  many things. She's a successful business person. She is a powerful force of nature, a teacher, a leader, a mom, a lauded public speaker, multiple bestselling author and blogger. Her website, DanielleLaporte.com, was named one of the top 100 websites for women and the best place online for kick-ass spirituality by Forbes Magazine. And she has a really fun, unique style of expressing her thoughts and her experiences on personal and spiritual growth, on conscious goal-setting, on entrepreneurship. And she does it in a way that's really fun and very accessible, in a way that I think really anchors and keeps her millions of monthly readers coming back for more, of which I count myself one. Her

• 4:47Rich Roll?

  books include The Firestarter Sessions, The Desire Map, and now her newest book, which is out May 16th, but available for preorder now, you can check it out, it's called White Hot Truth: Clarity for Keeping It Real on Your Spiritual Path from One Seeker to Another. And I've got more I want to say about Danielle in a minute.

• 5:13Rich Roll?

  All right, Danielle Laporte, what can I say? She's amazing. I absolutely love this woman. She just has extraordinary energy. She's incredibly thoughtful and has a very calm and anchored presence. I think she demonstrates real devotion, true commitment to helping people by sharing her experience in the most open and honest and vulnerable way. So this is a really fun and at times deep conversation about Danielle's path, of course, the ups, the downs, the machinations that led her to where she is today. It's about self-help adventures gone wrong and breakthroughs that make it all worth it. It's about what happens when

• 5:58Rich Roll?

  spirituality becomes a to-do list and how we can develop this unhealthy, at times obsessive relationship with personal development that ends up working at odds with our desired result, which is contentment, you know, connection. Purpose. It's about the principles required to develop that healthy relationship with your own desire to grow and expand. Things like discernment, intentional kindness, self compassion, authenticity. Because, look, ultimately, you need to become your own favorite guru. And you need to understand that, if you ask Danielle, it's not how we seek spiritual

• 6:38Rich Roll?

  growth, it's why we seek it. So with that said, I give you Danielle LaPorte.

• 6:50Rich Roll?

  Well, it's so nice to finally get a chance to sit down and talk to you directly. We've been communicating indirectly for a long time, so it's a pleasure.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  I'm stoked, because you are my favorite podcast.

• 7:02Rich Roll?

  Ah, you're just saying that.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, you've become like my obsession. You know, you and I, we met at a party a while ago, and you were a little standoffish.

• 7:11Rich Roll?

  I was not.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  And you totally were.

• 7:13Rich Roll?

  Well, I didn't know you. I felt like, we met at the Handler's, there was that beautiful event where you, you know, got to do your thing. And we hadn't met, so I didn't know you, and I felt like you were friends with everybody, and Julie and I were like the outsiders. We were the interlopers. So I didn't mean to be standoffish. I just felt like we didn't have a foundation, we didn't, we hadn't really met yet, so anyway.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  But it's all turned out, because now I'm like totally obsessed with you. So, look, full circle.

• 7:38Rich Roll?

  Well, here we are. The, the feeling is mutual. The new book is really fantastic. Congratulations. It's so exciting. It's such a fun read. Like, when you read something that you've written, it's so demonstrably you. Like, nobody else could have written in the way, in the vein, in the style, you know, that you do. You have a very specific, original, and, you know, a very authentic way of communicating that I think connects with people in a special way. You know, and what do you, how do you think about that? Do you just, you're just channeling who you are? Or do you have like a methodology for that? Or?

• 8:16Speaker 01

  I bring down myself.

• 8:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  I want to be useful. So every time I sit down to write, there's like this sometimes intentional, sometimes unintentional prayer, just like may this have some utility, may this ease some suffering. And I just want to express myself at the same time. And I have to dial down the poetics. Sometimes I read stuff, I'm just like, what? What? Too cosmological. Esoteric. And I'm really like fiercely clear on the point I want to make. And I want to make it in the most word economical way possible. And you know, I want to write.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  I want my writing to feel like essential oil. Like I just got you the best roses and I distilled them down. And I packaged it beautifully, but I got to the point.

• 9:19Rich Roll?

  Right. So, so relief, comfort and healing.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:24Rich Roll?

  That's beautiful.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  And I good, and really, I just want to make you laugh at the end of the day.

• 9:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, it's very human too. Like you're very, you know, uh, open and honest about, you know, your sort of blind spots and pitfalls. And I think that that allows people to, you know, connect and see themselves in your own journey. And because you're not standing apart, you're not saying, you know, I've, I've walked this path and this is what I've learned. And now sit down and I'm going to tell you how it's going to go. You know, you're saying, I'm, I'm struggling. I'm trying to work this out just like you guys. Here's where I fall short. Here's what I've learned and kind of take, you know, take from it. Uh, to the extent that it speaks to you and resonates with you.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  All in it together.

• 10:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I think, you know, what I wanted to do is kind of like read the first paragraph of the new book. Cause I think it kind of encapsulates, you know, everything that I want to talk to you about today. It's just, it really grabs you. You start off by saying, Three shrinks walk into a bar, a Buddhist, an agnostic, and a Catholic. This isn't a joke. It's my talk therapy history. I've had a life coach, creativity coach, a speaking coach, an intuitive business coach. I've had astrology readings with both Western and Eastern. Those are called Vedic astrologers because, you know, it's always good to have a backup astrologer in case you don't like what the first one predicts. I've communicated with the goddess Pele. I've done that.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  But you have been to Hawaii.

• 10:43Rich Roll?

  I've talked with my spirit guides and the archangel Metatron. I haven't spoken to that archangel.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  You need to get to know him.

• 10:50Rich Roll?

  I've communed with my inner child, my future self, and the devas of my website. I've cleared dozens of past lives, dissolved some ancestral woes, and examined the finer print of my soul contracts. And it kind of goes on from there, you know? And basically what you're saying is, you know, I've been blazing this, you know, path of self-help and, and, you know, self-expression and self-knowledge and expansion, you know, on the, on the road to, you know, perhaps enlightenment or just getting a little bit better. And, and everything that kind of follows and flows from the book is your experiences as a result of that. And I think that the, you know, what's communicated in the pages so beautifully is that there is no one path. And actually, there's a lot of, um, you know, dark alleyways that a lot of people run down

• 11:35Rich Roll?

  that perhaps you have as well, where you can get caught up. And ultimately, at the end of the day, it's all great, but you have to take responsibility for your own path. And ultimately, you know, if there's a, if there's a subtext that kind of runs through the whole thing, it's you gotta be your own guru, right?

• 11:54Speaker 01

  I think I should name the next book, or I should retitle this book, Perhaps Enlightenment. That's a good one. Yeah, you are your own guru. Dark alleyways, for sure. And I want this, I mean, there's like, there's really this prodigal through line in this where I'm really suggesting you should examine everything you're doing to be a better person because you might be doing it obsessively. And you might want to actually leave everything you're doing, leave all of your practices, and then come back to them on your own terms.

• 12:30Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  And that's what I've done with, because I, you know, I don't want people to get the idea that this is about, you know, just like screw it all and be debaucherous and, you know, this is about like a self-centered way to go. It's, it's not about a rogue spirituality. It's about a spirituality that works for you because I'm all for devotion. And I think you, I want to cheerlead people to be on the path, to be focused on evolving and seeking, but you gotta let a lot of stuff go and it gets down to resonance, like what really works for you in your bones.

• 13:06Rich Roll?

  I think there's an epidemic of self-care impinging on self-care.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:13Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, like we can become so caught up in, in learning and, and being a sponge for all this amazing information that's now available to all of us through these amazing devices that we carry around in our pockets. Uh, but ultimately it can create, uh, not just a sense of, um, like overwhelming disassociation because there's so much and it comes in so many varied voices that at times conflict, but also paralysis and then self-judgment.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. You nailed it. Yeah, that's, that's all of it. It's about your spirituality becoming a to-do list. I mean, I, when I had my slow grinding revelations around this, you know, the reckoning was looking at my day planner over the course of a month. And there was like, there was a shaman there. There's definitely a therapist on the roster. There was yoga, but not like I wanted to go to yoga because like for the joy of being on the map, but like must get to yoga to improve.

• 14:21Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Uh, there was a workshop to schedule and then there's this, just this general undercurrent of like, am I being awesome and evolved and pure-hearted and intentional with all these things I'm doing to go be more pure-hearted and intentional? It's a lot of money and it's a lot of time. And it was actually, you know, I felt this tension between. Everything I need in my life to make, like I'm a maker. I just want to create. I am running a business that I love being and fixing myself up. And it was getting really expensive and time consuming, fixing myself up.

• 14:57Rich Roll?

  When your primary occupation suddenly becomes fixing yourself up.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:02Rich Roll?

  And you're not actually living your life.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 15:04Rich Roll?

  Right? Like it's starting to invade the, like the, the divining line between, you know, what you're doing to kind of, uh, you know, expand yourself, becomes so all-consuming that you're not actually in your own life. You're in your own day.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. And there's this flavor of panic all the time with that sort of racing and looking outside of yourself for the answers. It's like, uh, I need to talk to my astrologer before I sign this. I better check in with my coach before I make this decision. So there's always like, there's that like janky time gap of like, I want to bust the move. I want to sign. I want to say yes. I want to make, but I need to get an appointment first.

• 15:47Rich Roll?

  I can't, yeah, it becomes disempowering.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:50Rich Roll?

  Right? Because you become reliant on your, your, look, it's good to have a board of advisors and people that give you sound counsel and to learn to, you know, find those people who you can trust. But at some point you have to, you have, you have to evolve into a place where you can trust your own instincts as well. Otherwise you're, you'll remain handicapped.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  And I think it's all about that. Everything we're doing is about getting to that place. And you're going to get there and then there's going to be bigger questions and deeper valleys and greater challenges and you're going to need some external help. But it is all about being self-referencing.

• 16:26Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. But at the same time, there is value in it, right?

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:31Rich Roll?

  So it's about striking that balance, I suppose.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't do it alone.

• 16:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  But it's about discernment. Like I now have a very short list of people I would consider the real deal. And everybody else goes through a much more stringent,

• 16:48Speaker 01

  observation process than they used to. I'm really interested in people who have suffered. I'm interested in people who aren't hiding their story of suffering. I'm very interested in where people's money comes from. And I want to know that there's philanthropy involved in somebody's service.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  I think they're, you know, my recent learning is that spiritual teachers really come to you in the spirit of friendship. They're really, they're not trying to convert you. They do not need you to believe in them. First of all, they clearly do not need your approval, but they don't need you to bolster them with your investment of adoration. And they meet you where you are. It's not, well, this is the meditation. These are the seven steps. This is the program that I'm selling today. It's where, oh, this is what you need as an individual, because I'm your friend

• 17:53Speaker 01

  and I'm attending to your pain. There's a different kind of presence with, with those who I think are the real deal.

• 18:02Rich Roll?

  So who, can you say who? The members of that council?

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Well, a mutual friend of ours, Guru Singh.

• 18:09Rich Roll?

  Oh, well, he's the best.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  He's the best. I mean, he is just, he's got that diamond consciousness. There's a real sternness about him, but he's playful at the same time. And my God, I mean, he has a story. Yeah, fascinating. And there's something about him, you know, like, his kind of presence, it's not just about, you know, eye gazing and the capacity to like, hold people's pain and, you know, rock a room. He's not in a rush. He's not in a rush to get stuff out. He's not trying to convert anybody.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  And, you know, my, I say, my learning with, you know, my real deal discernment has been that the more I rely on myself for the answers, the fewer people I listen to, the less panic I have in my life about getting the answer, the more capable I am for real reverence. You know, so I can be in the presence of someone like Guru Singh and

• 19:18Speaker 01

  It's just mad love. I'm just happy to sit at his feet. I want to know what he thinks about. It's just like real devotion.

• 19:28Rich Roll?

  Well, he's certainly a vast consciousness with incredible insight, but he's also very human and very approachable. Like, he's a dude.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  He plays, rocks the guitar.

• 19:40Rich Roll?

  Totally rocks out. Like, you could talk to him about anything and he's a parent. He lives in the world, you know, so he's, he's a very special, unique human being for sure. And there aren't too many people like him. But I think that, you know, behind, kind of the subtext of what you just said, like, behind that is really what I heard is somebody who's done enough self-work, where they can get to that point where you don't need, like, you're not, you're not sitting at the feet of Guru Singh with some great need for him to be something to you. Like, you can absorb the wisdom and there's certainly things to be learned, but you're not giving over your power, right?

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're not looking to be saved. You don't approach things like you're broken and you need to be fixed. And you recognize that you have some value to add to the conversation, even in conversation with great masters and great leaders, like, human to human, you have a useful story.

• 20:42Rich Roll?

  But did you think that you had to go through all of these machinations and be with all of these various people to, you know, get to where you're at? Or is there, is there a different way? I mean, the book addresses that, of course.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Listen, I had to waste thousands of dollars on really bad workshops that I wanted to, like, peel out of my rental car in the middle of the night. And I don't know that I could have gotten here any other way.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  But it's a path I took. I think you have to be lost to get found. I think you need to be, if you're signing up to be a light worker and to be of service to the world, you will get betrayed. It is part of the initiation. It's unavoidable. I mean, the betrayal can be in a romantic relationship or with a boss, or you can go drop some peyote and have to face some demons in the desert. But like you cannot, there are no shortcuts to initiation. You will have to walk through the fire.

• 21:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and sometimes, you know, sort of accepting the humanity of whoever is delivering the message and the betrayals that sometimes are packed into that, whether it's financial or with trust or, you know, or sexual. Sometimes the message being delivered is still sound despite the flawed humanity of the person delivering the message. I've had that experience as well. But I think, you know, behind it all, like, you know, you are somebody who is, you're a seeker, right? So, you know, what is that about? Like, were you just, did you just come out fully baked?

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Me so hungry.

• 22:18Rich Roll?

  What is it that's driving that thirst for self-understanding or actualization?

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it came out this way. This is a lifetime for it. I mean, I'm sure many lifetimes for it, but I, I wanna know. I'm driven to serve.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  I want an intimacy with creation. I'm really interested in euphoria. I'm interested in why the planet is so severely fucked up right now. I wanna know what I can do about it. I wanna know, I wanna know how we got this way.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  I'm very interested in like this science of hope and optimism. I struggle with both of those things. And I feel a lot of joy constantly, but hopefulness for me is a real conversation right now.

• 23:17Rich Roll?

  Did you feel like there was a hole that needed to be filled, though? Was there something missing and driving that thirst with the hopes of filling something that you were lacking that existed outside of you?

• 23:35Speaker 01

  I didn't feel a hole. I felt like I was looking for my place. Yeah, I've been looking for my stage. I've been looking for the most useful thing to say. I've been looking for my people. Yeah.

• 23:55Rich Roll?

  Well, I think you found your people.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:57Rich Roll?

  I think you've, you know, you've definitely found your groove in what you're doing. You know, you're, you know, you're this amazing, you know, leader of women, you know, and a messenger, like an envoy of female empowerment and feminism and self reliance that I think is much needed in this world. You know, something I talk about on the podcast all the time is when people say there aren't, you know, enough women that we're celebrating, enough strong women doing interesting things. And there's plenty of them. We just need to do a better job of shining a light on them.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 24:31Rich Roll?

  And you've been able to create this, you know, this tribe. Like, I sort of see you, I don't know if this is fair or not, tell me if it isn't, but, you know, with you, Marie Forleo, Gabby Bernstein, Chris Carr, like you're this power foursome of women who have kind of collaborated at times and each have developed their own tribe and probably in a Venn diagram, it overlaps a fair amount. But, you know, together, it's quite a, you know, triumphant, powerful demonstration and display of, of female empowerment. So how does that sit with you? Like, how do you feel about that and think about that?

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've been, you know, as friends, we're sort of like the Charlie's Angels.

• 25:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Of the new age. Yeah. Yeah. And all really wired to serve and unapologetic about the success that's come with that. And not going to stop.

• 25:24Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, standing in your power.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:26Rich Roll?

  Rock on.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 25:28Rich Roll?

  So let's let's backtrack it a little bit. You know, your your your backstory is is super interesting and and unique and certainly not linear. You know, you didn't you you made a decision to not go to college to university. Right? And at the time, was that a conscious decision of saying I'm this is not for me like I'm opting out of this path? Or did it just disinterest you? Like, when you think back on it now, like, how do you conceptualize that?

• 25:58Speaker 01

  I was going to go into fashion design. And even going into fashion design, I wanted to be really disruptive. I was like, I'm gonna do these naked fashion shows and really make this statement. Right? That wasn't gonna work. And I was working on my portfolio and cutting patterns and sewing. And I would get these what I consider to be like near migraines whenever I sewed. And I just walked out of my room one night and said to my mom, I'm done. I'm not I'm not this isn't it. And I was bartending on the side like I had no idea how it was gonna work out. And I wouldn't say I was lost, but I wasn't. I wasn't on any particular track.

• 26:35Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  And then

• 26:37Rich Roll?

  But the decision to not go to college was fueled by this desire to be a fashion designer at the time? Initially, or?

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought I, you know, I needed that to work in that world. And it was clear this was not gonna be the world for me. This was what I could I was feeling like way too surface. And my body was saying, do not pass go on this one. So that was it. I was not gonna go to fashion design school. I will figure something out. I gotta pay rent. But I'll just keep waitressing and bartending. And then

• 27:12Speaker 01

  You know, I got a job at the Body Shop in the days of Anita Roddick and that, you know, these are the days when like social responsibility in, in business was like a new thing.

• 27:21Rich Roll?

  Right. This is like pre Tom's Shoes.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  That's right. Pre Tom's and pre, who's the toothpaste guy?

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Tom's of Maine.

• 27:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Tom's.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  The original Tom.

• 27:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  And that was like so exciting. That was like Wild West of business, a triple bottom line.

• 27:39Rich Roll?

  Right. But you start, did you start out just in a retail store?

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like cutting soap and popping peppermint foot cream.

• 27:44Rich Roll?

  And so how did you hustle your way into like the corporate?

• 27:47Speaker 01

  I said, you need to give me a promotion. And I say, I am not signing that performance review. That manager is crazy and you need to like bump me up. And it worked. I just really talked my way up and up. And then the Body Shop started something called the Department of Social Inventions. And I started raising money to go to Romania and just got involved in all of their really amazing cultural programs. And then I just needed to bust out again. And I moved to the States. I got a job working with this American guru woman, working in her like remote Santa Fe,

• 28:31Speaker 01

  New Mexico, place of healing. And I was doing everything from like booking her fire walk workshops to getting her magazine interviews to like booking her hair appointments. And that got me into that space that.

• 28:46Rich Roll?

  Like that sort of public publicity space.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I was at a party one day and somebody said, what are you doing? And I'm like, oh, I get people gigs and I get them on the radio and they're like, you're a publicist. I was like, I should go get a business card that says I'm a publicist. And that was the entry point. And then physicists came along and philosophers came along and economists came along. Lot of big names and they're like, aren't you the girl who promotes futurists? And I was like, I should put that on my business card. And then that led to a real J O B, running this think tank in Washington DC with 21 futurists. So here I am, Canadian.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  Very female, very not educated. I mean, when I first landed in DC, people were always asking me what my alma mater was. I did not even underst- I did not know what that term meant.

• 29:41Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Alma mater. And I really leveraged that I hadn't gone to university because some people think, wow, you must be, you must be something to not have a degree and be doing this.

• 29:53Rich Roll?

  Right. Instead of hiding it, saying, yeah, like, I'm so, I'm so special or unique, not in an egoistic way, but like, sort of flipping the, flipping the table on that.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  I had no choice. I had no choice. And major imposter complex at the same time, right? So I'm wearing suits. I'm wearing loafers.

• 30:13Rich Roll?

  Working at a, I mean, I grew up in DC. Like, I had such a hard time imagining you working in a think tank in Washington. That's just crazy.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Navy blue.

• 30:21Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Like I, I mean, I talk about it in the book, tucking crystals into my bra to go to my first meeting at the White House to talk about Y2K.

• 30:30Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  And I had this white.

• 30:32Rich Roll?

  Not exactly an inside the beltway move.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  And I had this white, fantastic white suit on and I had red bangs and like, I think I had a purple streak in my hair. And the head of this committee, you know, as a Clinton administration leaned over afterwards and was like, you're not from here, are you? I was like, no, dude, but let's rock some change. Yeah.

• 30:55Rich Roll?

  And so that was like, uh, it was a nonprofit, right? So you're hustling for money and writing white papers and doing kind of what you do in that world. I mean, that's a pretty good gig. I mean, it would not be, you know, would not be surprising for you to say, oh, my God, like, I didn't even go to school. You know, I didn't go to college and here I am. I've got this amazing job. Like, and just, I'm going to stay here and build a career out of this.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, no way. Not, I was not. Listen, writing white papers on weapons of mass destruction,

• 31:26Speaker 01

  thinking about the AIDS crisis in Africa, water wars. It felt, you know, that had great gravitas. Like, I understood the potential change we could affect. If we got some of those scenarios into the hands of the right people, we could like change some behavior. And this is where that imposter complex came in. I was going home, smoking a pack of Marlboros. I wanted to read Rumi and Rolling Stone magazine. I was actually not that interested in the future. I was more interested in educating people on being present. It was not, it was not for me. And then, you know, there were circumstances.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  So a lot of our funding came from the dot com boom. That bombed. George W. Bush, number two, got in. I was just like, I'm going to flee this nation and figure my shit out. And I went, I mean, I just did, I did a go gang. I went from like left brain to right brain. And I just wanted to paint and I tried to get into art school. I got rejected. I still have a letter. And I wanted to work in a soup kitchen. I just wanted to be with people who, like, I could see their pain. And, and then it became clear soon, it was time for me to have a baby.

• 32:53Rich Roll?

  Did you have that awareness of this impulse to teach? And, you know, be available to other people? Like, was that part of the equation in taking that leap? Or did that come, like, did you just know, I gotta get out?

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Well, it was a combo of I gotta get out. And I'd been clear all along, even though I hadn't mapped it this way. Like, I needed to be doing my own thing. It needed to be like Danielle on the door. And, I mean, even when I left the body shop, you know, I was 20 something. And I was having a conversation with my high school girlfriend's dads. You know, and he's, you know, you come back and you've grown up. And he's like, why did you leave? What an amazing job. The company's growing so quickly. I just said, it was never gonna be mine. So.

• 33:37Rich Roll?

  So this sense of being an entrepreneur also.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, in my veins.

• 33:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Do not tell me what to do. I have to, I, I must be free. Um, very writ like risk erotic almost like I love the idea of risking money, of risking reputation. I just wanted to blaze.

• 34:02Rich Roll?

  And no imposter complex with that. When you tried that suit on.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 34:06Rich Roll?

  No, take the loafers off.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  Goodbye loafers.

• 34:10Rich Roll?

  It takes strength. You know, it takes strength. I think that, and I know you've talked about this, but I think that not going to college, not going to university makes that jump a little bit easier because you're not already in this box and on this habit trail where this is what you do. And then you go from here to here. And this is the expectation that we're placing on you and kind of intuiting that. But not having that experience, you're like, I don't have to do this. Right. But still, I think it takes strength, especially if you're saying, I don't have a university degree. Like, if I leave this, am I going to be able to get another job again? Like, for me, like, when I try that on, like, I see this, I have that, you know, that fear crops up.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Well, Stanford bakes it into you, don't they?

• 34:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's its own, you know, it's its own highly privileged cage, I suppose. You know, I think, and I, I think I stayed in, in career paths much longer than I should have for that reason, you know, because I didn't feel that sense of, of, of freedom and fluidity. I think that you have been able to enjoy. But I think at the same time, it's important to point out that it takes a very strong person nonetheless, whether you have that experience or not, to be able to jump around like that, to have that internal barometer or compass that's dictating like, okay, my next move is out of here. I don't know what's next. I'm going to, you know, have faith and jump into the abyss and trust that I'll be taken care of. Like, you had that sense, right?

• 35:30Speaker 01

  I, I've always had the sense I'd be taken care of. It didn't mean that, you know, look, I lived on credit cards. Eventually I started a company with a friend. I got Steve Jobb from my own company. I went and raised a bunch of money. Oprah had called, I'd, you know, wrote my first book proposal.

• 35:51Rich Roll?

  You're like rifling through this like critical stage in your life. Like, all right, let's slow down. So you, you start this, you get a partner and you start this company. Is this when like the blog starts? Or is this still publicity?

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Well, this is, I've graduated from publicizing other people. So this is like, I'm, I'm gonna make my own stage. I'm gonna, I got my hammer. I'm gonna build it.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  A friend and I essentially start this consultancy that is about soulful, personal branding. We create this, this formula and this process around it. It's really beautiful and it's deep. And the phone is ringing off the hook and came out with a book. Oprah producers called. When you live in Vancouver and Oprah Winfrey calls you, it's very easy to raise money. So we did that and four dudes, I think it's an important part of the story that they were all dudes. Come to the table with really big checks and say, if you hire this tech wonder kid to run your company, we'll sign the check today, give or take. I mean, I'm dramatizing a bit, but that's, that was the scenario.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  And we did the smart thing. Take the money and hire the guy to run your female centered, female audience focused company.

• 37:08Rich Roll?

  And the idea was to consult one-on-one and also scale that into online programs and things like that.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  We were gonna be a lifestyle media company. You know, this was in the days when it was all about your click-through model and it was all gonna be about ad-driven articles and content, content, content. I always saw that I was gonna be the content generator for that. And then we might start these, you know, in-home conversation groups around soulful style. And there was this whole kind of Mary Kay, spirit, self-help model to this. And, cause I, it wasn't gonna work for me just doing these one-off consulting sessions. And, you know, it wasn't scalable. And within six months, I got canned by the CEO that I had hired.

• 37:56Rich Roll?

  Only six months in?

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Uh huh. The lawyer who I had hired to paper all of the shareholder deals, sent me a letter one day asking for, you know, I needed to hand in the computer. I, it had come to their attention that the off, the office chair was in my home. And could I return?

• 38:17Rich Roll?

  Your own lawyer.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  My fucking chair. Yeah. And I mean, you know, the day you get canned from your own business and you're, you know, I'm pulling out of the parking spot that has my name on the parking spot, but I have been let go.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  Rage, dissolution.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Come home mascara running down my face. My baby boy is like two and a half. I say to my then husband, can you get the baby out of the house? He says, okay. He knows something's not right. And then, you know, I just totally lost it. I've, the company's gone. I've been constructively dismissed and someone better get a lawyer involved, you know?

• 39:07Speaker 01

  The best thing that ever happened to me.

• 39:09Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:10Rich Roll?

  Right? Why is it always that these, you know, crazy, terrible things that happen with time and perspective become the best things?

• 39:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, because we're in, you know, it has to happen that way because we're just in so much denial. And I was betraying myself so severely, like every body cue was there. My breathing was changing when I went into the office. Upset stomach when I sign contracts. I mean, there was a day where the new CEO came in and said, you know, you have to give over signing authority because there can only be so many people on the account. And I was like, let me get this straight. It's my name in the URL and I'm gonna, huh.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Lot of money on the table. Lot of people really wanted us to succeed. So I betrayed me and I gave over signing authority. I mean, just the metaphor of that is so.

• 40:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Awesomely pathetic.

• 40:12Rich Roll?

  But, but who would do different? Here you are, you're finally an entrepreneur. You have your own thing. I mean, the universe had to knock hard because otherwise you would have stayed there. Because you're, you know, on paper, this is like what you're manifesting on some level, this dream that is an expression of your own idea.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  I'm so glad we didn't get on Oprah. I would have been on that. That would have created this rocket ship of success. I would, might still be riding and I wouldn't have been my full self. I'm so, I'm grateful for the betrayal and, you know, there's some refining in that gratitude. Like the over spiritualization of bad things that happened to you is to say, I'm so grateful to everyone involved. I'm so grateful that happened. No, listen, there was some nasty shit that went down in that. There was some very poor behavior that karma will take care of that. I don't have to worry about that. I, I am not grateful for being ousted. I'm not being, I'm not grateful for

• 41:14Speaker 01

  some of the particulars of that. However, I am very grateful

• 41:20Speaker 01

  about my capacity to transform and transmute that situation.

• 41:26Rich Roll?

  There's gratitude, but then there's also forgiveness, right?

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:29Rich Roll?

  So I would, I would presume that you got to a place where you could at least forgive because that frees your own baggage from that experience.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. It took a while. And eventually the conclusion was everybody was doing the best they could at the time. Everybody had a lot on the line. Dude needed to succeed. The four other dudes who needed to, who invested, they're locked into their own rules of the game. My business partner.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Did her best, did her best, but it took a while. I mean, I ran into somebody who was part of that scenario a while after. And you know, there were hugs and kisses and I thought, you know, I should have just like, just punched him right in the teeth when I left.

• 42:18Rich Roll?

  Instead of a big hug, thank you.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 42:21Rich Roll?

  The best revenge is like, living well, right?

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh yeah.

• 42:25Rich Roll?

  So you can, you can smile and give that person a hug, can't you?

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, but there was, there was still some unresolved stuff for me there. Like, there was still a conversation that I wasn't having with that person. Like, what happened there? You sold me down the river. That needs to be expressed, not necessarily to the person who has betrayed you, but you just need to be really clear on what the pain point is. And then, once you get really real, you get to the other side and you're just like, you know, we're all bozos on the same bus. And on a soul level, love, gratitude, happy for your success that you're having. Yeah, a lot of sweetness in the, at the, the end of that

• 43:13Speaker 01

  cycle.

• 43:14Rich Roll?

  I think it takes a cognizance of the fact that, you know, I think there's, there's this sense in the spiritual seeking new age community to just delve into the everything is rainbows and unicorns and it's all light and the secret and all of that, right? Without an appreciation and understanding and embrace of the fact that there is plenty of dark out there. And to deny it is not going to be the best path forward for you. In other words, to be able to understand, look, this guy's not a good, he didn't, you know, maybe he's not a terrible human being. He did not behave appropriately and that's not okay. And to

• 43:56Rich Roll?

  understand that and be able to acknowledge that and not just, you know, to be dismissive, I think, and say, oh, well, he did the best he could, or, or, uh, you know, it's not so bad because everything's fine now, I think creates like a Percolation of perhaps resentment that will come to haunt you later.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  And you know, this dynamic is really important, specifically in the spiritual community. So like business, it's easier to parse out, you know, it's you can digest that. But when someone has been immoral in a spiritual setting, whoa, much more trickier to discern. It can be much more wounding. I mean, you've let someone into your psyche, into your practice. And this is really what I'm on about is discernment in that space.

• 44:45Rich Roll?

  Right. You talk about something that we talk about on the, Julie and I talked about extensively on the podcast. The difference between discernment and judgment. So how do you think about that dichotomy? Or how do you split hairs with that?

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Judgment is nasty. It's cranky. It's very narrow minded.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  It's like, it's like the worst side of small town consciousness. And I think it's rooted in fear. It can't stand being separate from, it sees itself as separate and there's some panic there. Discernment wants to do what's best for everybody. Discernment wants to see clearly. Because, you know, it just wants to be in the light. It wants to make progress. It wants, it's. Evolution doesn't happen without discernment. And discernment often creates disruption and disharmony. It can stir up a lot of anger and rage. I mean, you need that kind of anger to fight for justice, to fight against injustice.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  And so it gets a bad rap when that new age lecture is so much about harmony and oneness all the time. But sometimes you have to stand apart to stand for everybody like. You know, with the political climate and where things are right now, I think it's time to take sides.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  The divine irony is that I want to be on this, on the side that includes everybody. Like there's, there's space, but.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  I've got to be clear about what I consider personally to be immoral and moral, ethical and unethical, dark and light. And for so long, you know, I just went along in this bubble that, you know, at it because at everybody's core, they are love and we're all made of the stuff of stars. It's okay. Yeah, no, not okay. There are some bad mothers with some really nasty agendas who are acting like light workers, who are getting paid and hustling because they supposedly have your most enlightened interests at heart. And it's just not the case.

• 47:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, so you're speaking both to the political environment as well as the spiritual environment.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:15Rich Roll?

  Right? And the practitioners that we find there. I think that it's tricky with politics. You know, I'm sure you've been counseled to refrain from speaking your mind in that arena for fear of dividing your audience that you've worked so hard to build that in many ways transcends politics. So the conversation or the decision tree becomes about what is, you know, what is, um, what is appropriate? You know, in this, in this period of time, like who do you want to be? And what is your truth? And what are the, the limitations or the parameters upon which you speak about things that you feel are important irrespective of how that's going to land?

• 47:57Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 47:58Rich Roll?

  Right? Like, and that brings up, it brings it back to discernment versus judgment. Like without judgment, but with discernment, what is my responsibility as somebody who's, you know, carrying a certain frequency and has a certain tribe of people that are, that is following along and, and hanging on your every word. Like, how do you, you know, how do you, you know, how do you think about that and practice that?

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Well, no one would dare counsel me to refrain anymore.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  No one's trying to cross that bridge. Uh, you have to do everything you do with intentional kindness. Everything and you know, when Trump got in and the hashtag was about resistance in its various forms. You know, I have to speak the language of hashtags. I'm in this business. I got on that bandwagon for a very quick period, short period of time.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  And it didn't feel right. And it was a good little, I had to make this mid course correction about the stand I'm going to take. And

• 49:04Speaker 01

  for me, it's more about, you know, it's not about resistance. It's about creativity. And it's about const- it's about constantly promoting the values of love and kindness and discernment. And I rarely speak about anybody personally anymore. The few times I've done that, it felt gross. So I just have my own inner gross meter. And if it feels like ew, I don't go there. I try and keep things as clean, but as fiercely opinionated as possible.

• 49:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Guru Singh talks about insistence, not resistance. Like drawing this distinction in the same way that you draw a distinction between judgment and discernment. The distinction between insistence and resistance. With the preference being on insistence.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  And you have to be okay with the pushback. Like this is not for the weak skinned, right? But a great life is not for the weak skinned. Standing up, verbalizing your belief, whether it's like at your kitchen table or your boardroom, or with your 10 Facebook followers or your, you know, your, your 50,000, whatever it is. You, you've got to be expanding all the time with your opinions.

• 50:21Rich Roll?

  And in the, the kind of self-help world, uh, you touch on this a little bit. You know, we're in this age where suddenly we have so much information available to us. And there's a lot of people that are, uh, that are trying to get you into their email sales funnel and send you their free ebook with the hopes that you're gonna then buy their online program. And a lot of people, I think that are, there's a lot of great people doing that. And there's a lot of pretenders to the throne and, and people that probably shouldn't be doing that, right? So when you, when you look at that and you think about your audience of people and the exercise of discernment, like, how does

• 51:05Rich Roll?

  somebody who's listening to this, you know, approach that world? Maybe they have a neat, like, they really are struggling with their relationship, or with their profession, or whatever. And they, they want, they want that good information that could be transformative. Like, how do you approach finding the appropriate, you know, well-suited messenger for that?

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I think the fewer messengers, the better. I think it's, I think you look for one message, one teaching that you really resonate with. You see consistency across the board with somebody's brand. They're upfront about their story. And you go deep into that and see if it works for you. And then you move to the next thing if that doesn't work for you. One path, like, I remember meeting with the Dalai Lama. Let me just casually throw that out. So one time-

• 51:53Rich Roll?

  Nice name drop there.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  The Dalai Lama and I, but it was in a specific, an actual conversation I was honored to be able to have with him. And he just said, you know, "Your religion doesn't matter. Just go into whatever you choose." And that's a hard lesson when you're panicked and you want the answers, and you've just been fired, or you're in the middle of a divorce, or you're trying to get healthy. Like, you will grab from any shelf that you can.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  One opinion at a time. Go deep, move on.

• 52:26Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, one of the things that that Julie always says is, you know, I trust you to find your way. Like empower the person on the receiving end to say, you already know, it's already inside of you. There are many paths to extracting that. And there's work that has to be done, and that might be very, very difficult work that you have, you know, heavy lifting that you're going to have to do with yourself. But you already have the answer.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the teacher doesn't know what somebody's path is. This, you know, their story may be about getting off track for decades. It may be, you know, a lifetime of loss to get what they need to get. You just, you just don't know the makeup of somebody's spirit. You need to let them walk in their own way and be there. Just, just be there, go along for the ride.

• 53:19Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So you get fired from your company.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:24Rich Roll?

  Like, how do you pick up the pieces and move forward from that?

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Very quickly. Within a week, I had, you know, the skeleton of my new site. I needed money. I had to, my credit cards were racked. I had co-signed a bunch of business loans to the company personally, outside of the incorporation.

• 53:47Rich Roll?

  So the company just crater after you were gone? Or what happened to it?

• 53:50Speaker 01

  It took them a few months, but you can't be like so and so and Danielle and not have the Danielle. And then there's like karma. So, yeah. And I thought, well, I may have just been canned, but I can help people start their own businesses and learn how to rock it online. I'll do these one-on-one sessions. Let's call them, I'll call them firestarter sessions. And it was just a little blog post. I had 60 subscribers when I started, mostly friends. I got a major hand smack for trying to steal my old emails from my own old company. I actually had to surreptitiously go get my Twitter handle from Twitter. These are the days where like Twitter actually had customer service.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  And I did these one-on-one sessions. They were $300 an hour. Within six months, it was $1,000 a session and had a six-month waiting list. And I would, I went on the road. I would go wherever anybody would have me. I would pay for my own flight, my own hotel room. And if you could get 20 chicks in a living room for like a hundred bucks a pop, I was just gonna talk at you and I would run through business ideas. I would just like pour. I was exhausted after these sessions. I was like, okay, you know, who's your ideal customer? We just went through everything. And I did 16 cities in a year. Just about dad.

• 55:12Rich Roll?

  And the basic like, structure of these firestarter sessions was, was what? Like, what? Walk me through.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Hey, it's four hours with Danielle. And she's like, done a few things and she's opinionated and she's like, she's been a publicist and raised, she raised some money. And Danielle's gonna talk to you about angel investors. There is no such thing. And yeah, come one, come all. And so geeks were showing up and people who wanted to launch an app and wedding photographers and chefs and authors, a lot of people were showing up for publishing advice. And I ran them through what became known as the burning questions. Why do you

• 55:56Speaker 01

  want to make what you want to make? Yeah. And after that trek, that haul, I had a book called The Firestarter Sessions.

• 56:12Rich Roll?

  Right. So super grassroots. And through that process of doing that time and time again, and city after city, I would imagine certain principles and ideas start to congeal that formed the backbone of that book.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  And I realized we're living in the midst of a tragedy that nobody was giving themselves permission to even want what they wanted, let alone go after it.

• 56:34Rich Roll?

  What do you think that's about?

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. We are, we are bred to please. And I think from the time we're born, we are talked out of our feelings. It's like our brain is messed with in that most basic level from infancy.

• 56:54Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  You're not tired. You don't be sad. Don't be ang-, don't be angry. I mean, that messaging, that, those are lies. This is really.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Confusing our wiring. But wait, I am sad. But wait. And then.

• 57:13Rich Roll?

  And then you go to school.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:15Rich Roll?

  Right. And then that's a whole other thing.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  It's a whole different box.

• 57:19Rich Roll?

  Hijacks, you know, your whole operating system.

• 57:25Rich Roll?

  How do you think about that with respect to being a parent? How old is your son now?

• 57:30Speaker 01

  He just turned thirteen. Yeah, he's magic.

• 57:34Rich Roll?

  Cool. Our daughter's thirteen.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  That's so, you know, this, this age for me is, you know, you always want to be with your kids. I mean, for the most part, you know, that dedication is there. But now it's pedal to the metal time because I'm just like, oh, my God, in like, three, four years, he could be backpacking Europe. He's like a really independent kid. Like, he could really, I can't even really talk about it.

• 57:58Rich Roll?

  It's the onset of adulthood. It's happening right now, Danielle.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:02Rich Roll?

  You gotta prepare.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  So I just like.

• 58:04Rich Roll?

  But how does he like, how does he navigate school? And how do you parent him through the pitfalls of, of, you know, that, that, that hijack?

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, he is regularly preached at in the kitchen. I am unabashed about brainwashing him to think in a holistic way, to question everything. So, you know, this started in nursery school. You know, teacher said we should not talk to strangers. That's crap.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Somebody talked to me about heaven and hell. That's crap. Let me tell you how it works.

• 58:40Rich Roll?

  Draw within the lines.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  Draw within, um, you know, we look at fashion magazines and like, come on over here. I want to show you something. These are not real breasts. Nobody has legs like this. She could not stand up if this were, you know, there's lots of conversations in our house about pornography. It's just information, information, inform- it's the, it's, it's the only way to combat the lies that we swim in all the time. It's just, I gotta get there before the lies do. And I have to shatter them when they show up in his life.

• 59:14Rich Roll?

  And yet, at the same time, you bid him adieu every morning as he goes to school and is getting, you know, a different kind of information that you're not in control of.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't have the time or the disposition to homeschool. So, you know, I gotta take the risk.

• 59:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's life.

• 59:30Rich Roll?

  And so what kind of kid is he? Like, what is he into? And how do you kind of support that?

• 59:34Speaker 01

  He's super creative. He is introverted, but very kind. Like, he is, he's an introverted leader. I'm super down with that. Uh, he really cares about what he looks right, looks like right now. Super stylish. I think that's an expression of his creativity. So I'm really supporting that. And he's a deep river, but he only shares his opinions in really, I think tasteful, private ways. He's not like pushing it on anybody. Um, yeah, he's a sensitive guy.

• 1:00:10Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Sensitive guy.

• 1:00:11Rich Roll?

  And, uh, I just lost my train of thought. Um, what was I gonna say?

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  Well, I'll tell you one really important thing about my way of being with him. I don't even think of it so much as parenting. Like, I'm in a relationship with this person.

• 1:00:25Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  Is that I don't have this mindset where I'm preparing him for the future. This, this whole way of like building character, I think is creating a lot of falsity for kids. It's like, it's, it's, it's pushing us to force our children to do things that they don't want to do a lot of the time because it builds character for something that may or may not happen in the future.

• 1:00:50Rich Roll?

  Give me an example of that.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Got to learn how to play team sports. Cause you know, you're going to be on a team someday.

• 1:00:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Well, you know, maybe not. Maybe he's just going to be an independent art. Yeah. Yes, society is its own team. This is not what lights him up. My job is to help him become a master at what he is good at, to like know himself. And I don't think that comes through sucking it up.

• 1:01:24Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And I remember what I was going to ask you, which is, uh, is he able to hear you? Or is it like, come on, mom, like enough with that, right? Like every kid on some level.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Rich Roll?

  You know, pushes back.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's lots of eye rolling. There's lots of stuff he just think this is weird, like enough. Really with the oils, the essential oil, the this, that. And now, you know,

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  doesn't matter what you tell your kids, they're going to roll their eyes. It's part of them differentiating and becoming individuals. So I'm just going to show up with my, I'm going to wave my freak flag with my kid. And he's going to absorb what works for him. And if he, if he wants to bolt and become ultra conservative.

• 1:02:12Rich Roll?

  Like go be an investment banker.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Then like that's his path and okay, peace.

• 1:02:20Rich Roll?

  So how do you, how do you think about, um, this culture of, you know, celebrating participation? You know, everybody gets a, you know, with kids, like everybody gets a trophy. Every, you know, we can't distinguish the winners from the losers and reconciling that with like honesty.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Oh God, that's a great one. Because you know, I'm just, oh, just a love bug. And I don't want the kids to be hurt. I love inclusion. Oh, but you have to go find what you're going to be a winner at. So.

• 1:02:57Rich Roll?

  And if you're told you're a winner at everything.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  It's just not true.

• 1:03:01Rich Roll?

  It's not helpful.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Not helpful. I mean, look, I was one of those kids who got the participant ribbon for the track meets. And I just thought this may as well say loser on it. Like, let's get really real, right? So I don't think you're fooling anybody. I think the answer is to find other ways.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Like expanded ways, more ways of competing and showing up like. Art was not celebrated when I went to school. I, you know, I would have got the first place ribbon for that. But sports was. So I had to go make my way to find a place in life where I would get some metaphorical trophy for my self-expression.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  I don't think we celebrate

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  a great enough variety of talents in the so-called, the so-called educational system.

• 1:03:59Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  I mean, what about, what about a ribbon for empathy?

• 1:04:02Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's radical.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Rich Roll?

  Well, our education system is in great need of repair in many, many ways.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it needs destruction is really, needs to be taken down and something new needs to be born. Yeah.

• 1:04:19Rich Roll?

  Well, at school, people are doing interesting things. I just had Adam Braun on the podcast and he's doing cool stuff at higher education now with Mission U and our daughters, we homeschooled our daughters for many years, but now they're at this school called Muse that's around the corner from here. Um, that's really an experimental school that was started by James Cameron's wife and her sister. And it's really cool. Like they're thriving in that environment. And when you go and do your parent teacher conference, it is about like, oh my, it's not about like, you know, grades or anything like that. It's like, this is, let me talk to you about like how your child is interacting with other human beings and, and what really lights them up and how we can support that. And, you know, it's, it's pretty cool and refreshing and, and definitely unique and

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 1:05:03Rich Roll?

  You know, progressive, certainly, and, and perhaps not perfect either, but an interesting step in a, in an intriguing direction, I think. And it would be cool to see more schools breaking out of the, you know, the paradigm that was created in 18 whenever that in certain respects is just, it's antiquated now.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. And I mean, this is part of the truth conversation with my kid. Right. Is I let him know on a weekly basis. My exact words are, let's be really clear sweetheart. The educational system is failing you. So, uh, we're gonna go to an art class this weekend. I mean, I'm taking him in a couple of weeks. I'm taking him to an art class with Alex Gray. Who's like all about esoteric, cosmic, you know, and I'm just like,

• 1:05:46Rich Roll?

  I have his book like right over there, underneath all those.

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  Beautiful, tapped in. I'm just like, so I just need to check, are there going to be any psychedelics at this event? Cause I'm bringing my thirteen year old. And they're like, well, there's gonna be a nude model. I'm like, I'm down with that. Great. We need to see a naked body in a non-sexualized context. My kid was like, is that really okay? I was like, we gotta make it okay, dude. Yeah.

• 1:06:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it'll be cool. He might be a little uncomfortable with his mom there for a minute.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:15Rich Roll?

  All right. So what, what you, so when you start, you're gonna like do, you're, you're doing these firestarter sessions. You create this book. What, when is this, like 2009?

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  I'm really bad with years, but yeah, I think that's about right. Yeah. Yep.

• 1:06:27Rich Roll?

  And the book like does amazing, right?

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Well, the book does well. First, I come out with a digital edition. I want to own my own copyright. I'm also in another one, another one of those major life passages where I'm going through my first divorce. So I'm divorced and married the same person more than once.

• 1:06:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, let's get into that.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  And I needed to move out. So I would, I was teaching myself how to work iMovie. And I would pack a box, cause I'm leaving and I would cry and I would then get teabags, put teabags on my eyes. And I would go upstairs and film a little module about stamina and writer's block and knowing how much money you want to make every year. And I launched that and I was, I did begin with the end in mind. I wanted a book deal.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  And I had my first big launch day. I didn't do any velvet rope kind of marketing. I was just like, hey, it's me. If you want it now, I'll give it to you sooner. You can have the first chapter. I have 18 more chapters to write. I've only written one. Do you want it now? And you want to pay me full price? And people did. And that gave me enough to move. And I finished the book and that led to a deal with one of the big five publishers. And.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  Then came the Desire Map.

• 1:07:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:52Rich Roll?

  So that was directly in the wake of of that deal. You just immediately launched into starting to put that book together?

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I planted the seed. So now we're on Desire Map plan. I I planted a paragraph or a chapter in Firestarter Sessions that I knew was the entire next book. And I did this really weird hybrid deal for that for Desire Map. I basically baked the book myself and then did a deal with a publisher and said, just help me get this out. Let's see how this works.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  And wow, I mean, that has become, that's one of the pillars of my temple.

• 1:08:35Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, that so that book came out when? Do you remember? 2010? 2011?

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  It's somewhere in the copyright page.

• 1:08:42Rich Roll?

  Right. All right. Well, it doesn't matter.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  It's just how I'm wired.

• 1:08:44Rich Roll?

  Came out, it was huge.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:45Rich Roll?

  It changed lives. And it was interesting. I think, you know, it was an interesting time, like when you really established yourself as this online presence. It was like around, I think it was around like 2007, 2008, around that time where where blogging was emerging as like this this big thing, right? And there was definitely like a land grab of outspoken, interesting voices who were, you know, putting their own perimeter on the digital landscape. You were certainly one of them. It seems like it's different now. Like if you like blogging doesn't feel like what it was like then. Do you sense that? Like, I feel like if you were going to start a blog now, it would be a whole different journey.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  Well, I think a lot of us burned out. Like in those days, it was all about you were going to blog daily. And we all realized it wasn't sustainable because hello, lifestyle. I mean, the only who can blog daily Seth Godin, but he's a unicorn. And I don't know how he does it.

• 1:09:45Rich Roll?

  He's still doing it.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's still doing it. I don't think so.

• 1:09:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  And still is cooking his vegan meals. And yeah, yeah. So he's like on another stratosphere. So we realized.

• 1:09:56Rich Roll?

  Books like every other week, too.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, like highly prolific. For us humans. Realized you can't do that and make product at the same time and be a good partner and do speaking gigs and we're also, we had to learn what language in terms of media we were going to speak. It's like, you know, long this, you know, not long after that, you know, after everybody, after everybody learned how to work WordPress, then it was everybody had to vlog. And I was like, you know, that's not my language. I'm doing a lot of video stuff now, but I actually feel really lame just sitting there doing videos in my own space. It's not my, I want to write. So, and for people who weren't comfortable writing, vlogging was their thing. Um, where were we going with that?

• 1:10:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, how the landscape, the digital landscape has changed and evolved. You know what I mean? Like I think to become a blogger today and, and, and be a breakout in that, that sphere, I think would be very difficult.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  I think it is very difficult.

• 1:10:56Rich Roll?

  Because I think there's a lot of things that have changed. And one of the biggest things is that, is that the landscape has been disintermediated. So it's less about driving traffic to your own site and it's more about meeting people where they already are.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:11:09Rich Roll?

  And, and that's a huge difference, right? Cause it was all about like trying to get as many people to come to your website and that seems to be less important now.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it used to be like blasphemous to cross pollinate. You would never post your, your blog post on Facebook as well. Cause you were driving for the clicks on your homepage. And now you're exactly right. It's all like, every platform you can hit someone, every multimedia language you can talk in.

• 1:11:34Rich Roll?

  Right. So if you're blogging, you're putting it on your site, but you're also putting it on Facebook and you're posting it on Medium and you're like, you're going all over the, just to find where people already are.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. And that's manageable and you can do that without losing your mind because micro content is really working for a lot of people. So I can just put 30 seconds up on Instagram that are really, that's really meaningful for people and I can put my full five minutes on Facebook. Um, I think, you know, the shadowy side that's coming up with where we're at is, I think there's some forced authenticity, right? Like I'm going to get really real and I'm going to get really raw and I'm going to drop as many fucking F bombs as I fucking can, you know, just to like create that edginess and that sound bell. And yuck.

• 1:12:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I had written down on my notes here to ask you what you think about when you hear the word authenticity.

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, overused, underrated. Look, everybody's being authentic at all, at all times. Really, they're doing their best. They're, they're posing because they're trying to make some money, feed their kids, get ahead, get approval from the father who never said they loved them. Like, we're all doing, even if we are obviously an imposter, we are being authentically fake. I mean, and I'm not just splitting words about that. So I think there is

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  a fad where transparency has become a gimmick.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  And it's really unfortunate because what's happening for the person who is using that to get attention is it's actually really damaging in the end. They're getting further away from their, their, their true self, their authentic self. You can't help but feel disconnected if you're doing that. And you're going to share a lot of things that you regret sharing. Some things that are really sacred, that you should have let bake and really turn into a lesson. Some things are private until they turn into the teachable moment.

• 1:13:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think in order for authenticity to connect with another individual, there has to be some maturity and introspection about what that actually is. Like, what is it that you're communicating? And like, what is the why behind it?

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, what's your intention? Why, why so raw? That's really what, that's the question to ask.

• 1:14:21Rich Roll?

  And a crazy story or shock value isn't necessarily authentic, especially if it's, if the why behind it is to, is to just get attention. You know what I mean? Like, that seems inauthentic to me. Right?

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  You know what's really authentic is your reason for serving people. That's what I'm most interested in. Like, if you're not of service, if you don't have a triple bottom line.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  I'm just not attracted to it. And it's okay, go do your thing. It's not even this broad stroke judgment. It's just like, I'm really interested in people who want to be helpful. And from that place, if you can really talk about that why, then it becomes really magnetic. I think that's the secret sauce.

• 1:15:09Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So what is your why?

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  My why?

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  It has everything to do with light for me. I mean, light is my,

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  it's my word, it's my practice, it's my elixir and all things. It's about illumination. I want to, I want to be self expressed because I feel, I feel full. It's a turn on. I feel good, I feel joy. And I want to help people get to their own truth. Like, it's really about liberation. Please, can just one thing I say, help you put down a shackle? Can you just be a little more, a little more of yourself today? Because I told you how I used to fake it? That's all.

• 1:16:04Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, when I get on stage, my prayer is very simple. Help me shine so I can help other people shine. Just

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  be you without fear.

• 1:16:18Rich Roll?

  What I like about that is that it's rooted in emotion and feeling as opposed to like a concrete, you know, quote unquote, goal. Like, you could have said, you know, my why is, yeah, I'm gonna impact a million people or I'm gonna, you know, achieve this benchmark or what have you. And so it reminded me of something you talk about all the time, which is the sort of pitfalls of setting goals and focusing more on like the feelings that you aspire to inhabit in your day to day.

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. And look, it's not, it's not for me to say who I impact.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  I, I, it's immeasurable.

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  It, you know, people come up to me and say really lovely, positive, supportive things. And I used to deflect it a bit, and that was my own self-worth stuff of like, oh, hey, whatever, that's cool. You got something and just go on. I didn't want to take it in. Now I really, you know, I take it in and I feel the sweetness of that. And the real, you know, that's like an intimate moment when someone thanks you for giving them an idea that helped them. But then I am really quick to say from a healthy place, has nothing to do with me. You did all the work so you could just hear the right thing at the right time that tipped you over in that one way. It's all about resonance. And this is part of my soapbox right now is to like reframe

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  the teachings you're getting from other people and your own wisdom. So it's not like he gave me the answer or he facilitated this breakthrough. It's like, I did my work and I showed up and I was able to get it. Or I really related with that, that masterful teaching. Yeah, own it and be reverent at the same time. It's a beautiful combination.

• 1:18:09Rich Roll?

  So I would trust that that is sort of, that's sort of the specific why behind the white hot, white hot truth, right? The new book, like that's, that's kind of informing that narrative.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  I want you to respect your own opinions and get down into that place

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  of self-compassion where you're really loving yourself while you're really hating yourself. Cause that's where the medicine happens. And then, and this is just my own agenda, very open about this. I would really love it if you got off your ass and you gave selflessly to the world.

• 1:18:46Rich Roll?

  That's the key, man.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:48Rich Roll?

  That's the key.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:50Rich Roll?

  No one likes to hear that, but that's the truth behind it all.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:53Rich Roll?

  It's so simple and it's so magical and powerful.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Everything.

• 1:18:59Rich Roll?

  It's a difficult leap for a lot of people, though.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, because we want what we want. But I think everything, everything, everything you're craving on a soul level, a physical level, it's all in the service. You can get it all if you hand your life over to helping other people in some way. It's all there.

• 1:19:22Rich Roll?

  It feels, it feels like a relinquishing of, of self reliance and self determination and self sovereignty, though. And so it, it like lands as something that's threatening, I think. It scares people.

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:36Rich Roll?

  Because if they're doing that, then they're not, they're not moving their own life forward and they're falling behind.

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  That's what it is, yeah. Yeah. You, I think you jumped to this conclusion that you're gonna have to go without in order to be so generous and giving. And in my experience, it hasn't worked that way at all.

• 1:19:51Rich Roll?

  Universal law dictates otherwise.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  Truth.

• 1:19:54Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:55Rich Roll?

  Um, I want to talk about, uh, the kind of shame of suffering, uh, that a lot of people inhabit. Um, you know, people that are seeking in this world, uh, who feel like they can't get it right, or they sort of flog themselves for falling short of, you know, being able to adhere to the listicle of whatever the seven things are they're supposed to do every day, who kind of suffer quietly.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  I'm one of those.

• 1:20:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, me too. And I have the imposter syndrome.

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. What do you, what do you think you're, what are you faking?

• 1:20:33Rich Roll?

  Oh, I just, I just can't, you know, I'm just expecting somebody to knock on the door right now and say, what are you doing? You're not supposed to be doing this.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  The podcast police are coming.

• 1:20:42Rich Roll?

  Who do you think, yeah. Who are you to like, think that you can sit down with people like Danielle and talk to them? Oh, I was just like, all the time.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  So when people come up to you and they say, wow, you know, your story and addiction, cleaned it all up and vegan and service and high mindedness and stuff. Uh, you changed my life, man. Like, I want to know two things. A, how do you feel? And B, like, what's your response?

• 1:21:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I feel, uh, quite often I feel awkward with that because I don't feel like I, I, uh, on some level, I, I immediately start thinking of like, yeah, but if you really knew who, what I was really like and who I really am. And, you know, the story's not that crazy. There's plenty of people that have much more inspiring stories, you know, like I, I immediately reduce myself, minimize myself and, and I'm, and I, I resist the urge to be dismissive. Um, because who, like you said earlier, like who am I to judge their experience of, of what I'm putting out into the world? And so I've tried to mature and grow into a place where I can be grateful and receive it

• 1:21:52Rich Roll?

  and honor that. Um, but when I hear it like, and I do hear it, you know, regularly, there still is that sense of like, like, did I make it up? Like, am I lying? Like, how honest am I really being? Like, if he really thinks that, like, maybe he's not really getting it. You know what I mean? And so that's a challenge, that's a challenge for me. And then reconciling that with, you know, some level of awareness that like, there is some purpose to what I'm doing. And it does seem to be helping people in some regard, certain people. And to just be like, not only accepting of that, but like grateful and responsible. Like, okay, if that person is getting that, like, how can I do better? How can I serve that? How can I serve the message? And how can I carry

• 1:22:37Rich Roll?

  this resonance in a way that can be even more impactful and more substantive to people that could really catalyze long lasting change in their life? But there is definitely, you know, I, I battle with the imposter syndrome with that. And all you have to do is go and read like a negative review of your book on, you know, my book on Amazon to read, like, I can find reinforcement for that if I want.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  Hey, you know what? I'll give, I'll let you off the hook on that one. Eckhart Tolle does not read his book reviews because That very reason of the one negative review. I um went to a talk of his and he said, he found, you know, that one negative review was very sticky in his consciousness. Those were his exact words and it pulled him out of his center. And I was like, damn, if Eckhart is getting thrown off by a negative review on Amazon, I'm giving myself permission to not go there. So I don't read any of my reviews anymore.

• 1:23:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's wise counsel.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:35Rich Roll?

  Wise counsel. So what was I asking you?

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:23:38Rich Roll?

  Totally forgot.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  I turned it around.

• 1:23:39Rich Roll?

  I don't know that you flipped it on me. Like, I indulged you, but let's get back on track.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  Oh, we were talking, we were going to talk about suffering.

• 1:23:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  And yeah, the shame around suffering. So if you're on the path, this is what happens. You know, you get sick and you just think, have I not been dealing with my family of origin stuff? Is that, have I, do I need to meditate more? Do I need to clean up my diet? Like, it's this instant self-recrimination for not being holistic enough. And my, my remedy for that has been to leave a lot of room for mystery. Like, I could be sick for 10 different reasons and it doesn't mean that I've been this holistic loser. Just like, give it some space, we'll figure out why.

• 1:24:31Rich Roll?

  Or it's karmic payback.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  It's karmic payback, yeah.

• 1:24:34Rich Roll?

  Somehow it's your fault.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  And at the same time, someone can say to me, you know, they can take the, this, you know, the really logic linear approach and say, well, you got sick because you've been on a lot of airplanes. And I'm like, no, dude, actually, that's not how it works for me. Like, there's something going on in my system psychologically, spiritually, biologically, that left me vulnerable to get sick on those airplanes. And I gotta figure out what it, what it is. But there's some shame in that. Yeah, and that's where the self-compassion has to come in. I had a really.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  Really powerful experience recently. I was in Australia doing a tour. And I've been really open about the fact that almost before every speaking gig, I get sick. I actually just did my first gig a couple of weeks ago without getting sick and it was like this major victory. And so Australia was no exception to that. And you know, I'm the day before a big gig. I, you know, I'm so happy it's sold out. Um, I've got a sinus infection. I'm in bed. And with me and a respiratory, you know, predisposition, that's going to turn into some bronchial thing, pneumonia. I'm going to die. I'm not going to make it home from Australia, right?

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  And instead, this is usually what happens with me is while I am praying and meditating and contemplating and asking for like universal support to get well, I'm also, I kind of sneak in this wish that I'll never get sick again. Like I've got to end this habit. I have to end this pattern. I've got to knock off this routine of getting sick. And I realized I was really leaking all of this energy that I could have put towards just compassion and wellness and curing myself in that moment and not trying to fix the future.

• 1:26:27Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Future tripping.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  This was a huge revelation for me and it got me to like this other layer of compassion that I hadn't considered before and courage of like, I'm just going to fix me now.

• 1:26:42Rich Roll?

  And acceptance. This is where you're at right now.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  This is where I'm at now. And if I get sick again, it's not because I've messed up. I'll deal with it then. And it's just like, I, I felt like I just got, you know, 4X energy back to deal with what was really happening.

• 1:27:00Rich Roll?

  Do you get nervous when you go on stage?

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:04Rich Roll?

  No?

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:05Rich Roll?

  That's your home, huh?

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  It's my home.

• 1:27:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How often do you, how often are you doing speaking stuff?

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  Well, a lot, a lot now because it's, you know, it's book gig time. Uh, I took a year off and that was a really valuable thing because I was really starting to resent getting fed stale muffins when I got offstage. I was like, really? This is all you got for me? And I just like, okay, Danielle, you need a break. And something has shifted in me where even though I've always felt at home on stage, there was some obligation to it, like it was part of the hustle. And now there's this new kind of service and hunger, like give me the mic, I have something to say and, and I'm so much more

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  loving about it. Yeah.

• 1:27:54Rich Roll?

  I want to get back to this

• 1:27:57Rich Roll?

  idea of the why, the why behind it all, you know, the why behind your seeking and the why behind what motivates people and the why behind the goals that people share with you. Right? Like so for me, somebody will come up to me and say, you know, I, I'm training for my first marathon or my first Ironman or, you know, I'm going vegan or whatever it is, it doesn't matter. But it's usually like a goal that's kind of in the vein of the things that I have experience with. And followed by, you know, what are, you know, what are some tips that you can share with me? Or can you help me, you know, cross that threshold? And my first question is always like, why are you doing this? Like what, you know, why do you want to run a marathon?

• 1:28:41Rich Roll?

  What is it, what, what is going on in your life that like being, you know, crossing a finish line at a race has value for you? And a lot of times that's met with like, uh, kind of like a thud, like, you know, that's

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  It's a shocking question.

• 1:28:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because I think in my experience and because I've been in this place myself,

• 1:29:02Rich Roll?

  most people, again, myself included, are very disconnected from themselves, from what's making their heart beat. Like they don't have a healthy relationship with their impulses and their instincts and what drives them. Let alone, you know, a rudimentary understanding of how that wiring works. So the impulse to run a marathon or whatever is generally doesn't have to do with, it has to do with something that's completely under, under wraps, right? That they might not even consciously be aware of. So I'm sure when people come to your, you know, come to you or come to your sessions or, you know, email you, it's like, I'm starting this business or an Etsy store, or I want to do this or that. And I can envision you asking the same question.

• 1:29:46Rich Roll?

  And are you met with that similar kind of response? You know, what is it? What is your experience with that?

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  I'm obsessed with the why. And yeah, it's that I get a similar kind of fluttering. There's a little, that kind of head tilt, the puppy head tilt. And it's really-

• 1:30:06Rich Roll?

  We're set, we're set up to set these goals, right? Like we're a goal-driven culture.

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  It's 50/50. Some people are really clear because they've examined it and it feels almost, you know, like I don't believe in destiny, but there's this destined quality to it. And the people who are mystified by the why question, and it's just been this kind of sequential coasting. Like, well, this was the next thing. Or it kind of fell into my lap. It's just, it's gone unexamined. And then comes the next question, which is, well, how does this make you feel?

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  And that's where you really get to the heart of it. Yeah.

• 1:30:49Rich Roll?

  I feel like your book is, you know, is a pathway towards that, right? Like getting at the why. You know, you use your own personal experience of searching.

• 1:31:01Rich Roll?

  But it's all driven around like trying to get people to understand that the journey towards the why is the jewel that will unlock everything that follows. So, you know, don't set the goal until you can really own that why. And, and the process of unpacking that and getting to the core of that is that internal, you know, that internal wrestling, you know, spiritually, emotionally, mentally. And there is no right way or wrong way to do that, but you have to do it.

• 1:31:34Speaker 01

  The, a really potentially offensive, powerful question is who are you trying to impress?

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  And that really cracked me open and I realized that even though I'd let go of this Catholic God, having been raised that way, I was still trying to impress some other cosmic committee. It was still, there was still this striving. And if you can drill down, I mean, this is like more of a therapeutic thing. I don't want to bring people through this process, but as an individual, everybody listening, if you can like just bring your dream up in front of you and lay that who do you want to impress question on it, you might be really surprised. Like hopefully ideally, you're really trying to impress yourself. Um, hopefully ideally, maybe you're not even trying to impress yourself.

• 1:32:28Rich Roll?

  Unlikely, but yeah, like developing an appreciation of, of what is impulsive your behavior and how much of that is rooted in externalities.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes, that's a very ritual brilliant way to put it.

• 1:32:44Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah. So how do we, how do we move from, from that towards trying to serve our own best interests for ourselves to, you know, be that quote unquote, you know, authentic version of ourselves? How do we do that Danielle?

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  Well, let me tell you, Richel, there's seven easy steps.

• 1:33:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. In your micro blog, you're going to share this.

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  Well, I'll just tweet about it later and we'll just, we'll just crush it right now. Hashtag enlightened. Uh, I think you're going to be motivated by two things, pain or pleasure. That's it. Pick one. So do you want to just be, do you want to be done with heavy, constricted, restricted, oppressed, not at home, cranky, agitated, empty, lonely, not enough intimacy, unmet? That's cool. That will motivate a lot of change. That will have you look within for sure.

• 1:33:47Speaker 01

  So know where the wound is. Or do you want to be inspired? I mean, motivation is externally presented to you. Inspiration is internal. Do you want to be inspired by the dream and the desire for the opposite of all those things? For wholeness and connection and flourishing and joy and ease? I think everybody just wants ease, you know? Pick what's gonna drive you.

• 1:34:14Rich Roll?

  We want it. But there's a vast crevasse between the want and the action.

• 1:34:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I don't have a lot of patience for the crevasse.

• 1:34:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and how bad do you want it? This is where the tough love of esoterics comes in. Like, because if you don't want it bad enough, no chick in a podcast in Malibu is gonna be able to help. Jesus could come down from the heavens and give you the tweet on a silver platter. He could take you to the clinic and you still are not going to make the changes. So it really does get down to desire and your desire will be driven by pain or pleasure. There's really no conversation.

• 1:35:06Rich Roll?

  Right, because what gets thrown at? Well, that's great. Yeah, I get it, but you know, you don't understand my problems, you know, and all the reasons why I can't do that.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  And that's when I leave the conversation. Like, it's not as, you know, as someone who's on a soapbox, I am very clear. I'm not here to convert anybody. I don't even need to compel you. Just if you resonate, great. I feel useful. That's super. If you want to stay where you're at. That's your path. I respect that. You may need an intervention. You may need another 10 years of, of really being in the negative shit. But I don't want to argue with you about why you want to justify your stuckness. What I can do as a loving compassionate person is

• 1:35:55Speaker 01

  say, I believe you can do it. I believe it's your birthright to be fulfilled. I am, I'll tell you, I am hooked on potential. That's just, that's me personally speaking. I can see it. I can see you're sexy. I can, I just heard some brilliance in that question. It's there. So I see you. I acknowledge you. Up to you now, dude.

• 1:36:24Rich Roll?

  I think that's a good place to wrap it up. That was beautifully put. I love it Danielle. What is, uh, what's, what's like left for you? Like what's the stone that's, uh, that's still not overturned?

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  It's deeply personal.

• 1:36:44Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:46Rich Roll?

  No one's listening.

• 1:36:48Rich Roll?

  Come on.

• 1:36:51Rich Roll?

  On the next podcast we do together, right?

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 1:36:55Rich Roll?

  Cool. Well, the book is fantastic. White Hot Truth. Everybody check it out. Out March 15th? I mean, May, May 15th.

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  May 16th.

• 1:37:04Rich Roll?

  May 16th.

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  Tuesday, yeah.

• 1:37:05Rich Roll?

  May 16th. That's super exciting. It's, uh, it's super fun to read. I mean, it's just fun, you know, like you can just rip through it and there's just so many jewels and pearls in there that I think are gonna really help a lot of people. So

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 1:37:19Rich Roll?

  I applaud you for writing it. And I think it, it's, it's a book that has, it's, it says so much that hasn't been said yet, most importantly, in a, in a canon of self-help books that often seem like retreads of old ideas. It's, it's very fresh.

• 1:37:34Speaker 01

  In some ways, it's the anti-self-help, self-help book.

• 1:37:37Rich Roll?

  Right. It's like enough with this already.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:40Rich Roll?

  A little bit, right? And you know, it is, it is beautifully articulated in your very trademark Danielle style, right? Aesthetics are important. That's something you talk about as well, right?

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, Helvetica forever.

• 1:37:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:37:57Speaker 01

  I mean, the reason why-

• 1:37:57Rich Roll?

  You stuck with that font.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  I did. And the reason why I went, you know, rogue with this in terms of publishing and doing it myself was because I wanted Madame Gold Foil. No publisher would ever give me Gold Foil. And I just said, I'll do it myself.

• 1:38:12Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:13Rich Roll?

  Is this the fir-, well, aside from the very first book that then went to a major publisher, so this is the first like kind of big book that you're doing on your own?

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:21Rich Roll?

  That's exciting.

• 1:38:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it is, wow, it is like lion amount of work to do this. But I'm setting myself up to publish other people's stuff. I mean, that's really the next evolution.

• 1:38:36Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's great.

• 1:38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want to broadcast. I want to broadcast the real deals that are out there.

• 1:38:42Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:43Rich Roll?

  Any last pearls of wisdom for the listener out there who perhaps is feeling a little bit stuck and is done with all of those excuses and reasons why not and is looking for a little activation?

• 1:38:58Speaker 01

  Weren't you listening?

• 1:38:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we said it all, right? You said it all. I think we're good, right?

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  We are so good. And you know what? I just want to say publicly, because no one's listening, Rich, you are really being of service to the world. And the content you're putting out there is like golden substance. And yeah, just really deep honor for what you're doing.

• 1:39:20Rich Roll?

  I appreciate that. Thanks a lot. It means, it means a lot to me. You know, I just, I don't take it for granted at all. There's a lot of podcasts out there. There's a lot of demands on people's, you know, content enjoyment. And that, that's very nice of you to say. So, thank you. All right, the white hot truth. Danielle LaPorte, how do you feel?

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  Oh, grateful, so grateful. Let up. Thank you.

• 1:39:47Rich Roll?

  Thanks for coming over and good luck with the book and the launch. If there's anything I can do for you or to be of service to you, please reach out and I'm excited to see how this plays and to get this book into the hands of a lot of people. I think it's going to help them a lot. So thanks for coming by today and being so open and honest.

• 1:40:05Speaker 01

  My honor.

• 1:40:06Rich Roll?

  Danielle LaPorte is very easy to find on the internet. You can go to DanielleLaPorte.com. You can type in half her name into Google and it'll finish it for you and find the websites for you. But Danielle LaPorte is the primary place to find all things Danielle. And you're just Danielle LaPorte on Twitter, Instagram, all those places, right?

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  I am, just me.

• 1:40:26Rich Roll?

  In Health Etica, all the way, baby.

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  Forever.

• 1:40:29Rich Roll?

  All right, thanks.

• 1:40:30Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:40:30Rich Roll?

  Peace. Blads. Oh, we didn't talk about being vegan.

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  You want to talk about being vegan?

• 1:40:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:40:37Rich Roll?

  Are you still vegan? We communicated a little about that. I know you were taking a stab at it. We had a false stop here.

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  Vegetarian.

• 1:40:44Rich Roll?

  You're vegetarian.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  Vegetarian. I thought, yeah, the interview you did with Melanie Brown, is that her name? Melanie Joy? Dr. Melanie Joy. That is like some revolutionary stuff. Yeah. I could no longer justify eating animals. I got tired of apologizing to the chicken every time I ate the chicken.

• 1:41:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's too much cognitive dissonance. You come into that understanding and it means something to you, I think.

• 1:41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was not loving.

• 1:41:15Rich Roll?

  Well, that's cool. That's great. Let me know if I can help you out with that.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:41:18Rich Roll?

  All right, we'll talk about that more next time.

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:41:20Rich Roll?

  All right. All right. Thanks, Danielle.

• 1:41:25Rich Roll?

  All right, well, we did it. I found that delightful. I hope you did too. Please check out Danielle's new book, White Hot Truth. Track her down on Instagram or Twitter at Danielle LaPorte. Visit her website, DanielleLaPorte.com. Give her a follow, give her a shout out. Let her know how much you appreciated hearing from her on the podcast. I know I did. And I'm sure she'll be back. Hopefully she'll be back. If you would like to support this show, And my work, you can do it in a number of ways. You can share the show with your friends and on social media. That's awesome. You can leave a review on iTunes. Doubly awesome. Please subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcast content. That's amazing. And also, every time you go to Amazon, if you click through the Amazon banner ad on my

• 1:42:07Rich Roll?

  site, richroll.com, or you type in richroll.com/Amazon, it will take you to Amazon. Buy whatever you're gonna buy. Doesn't cost you anything extra. Amazon kicks us commissions on those purchases. I don't know what you buy. I have no information about any of that, but that really does help support my work and I appreciate everybody who has made a habit of that. You can just bookmark it on your browser also, so you don't have to visit my site every time or remember anything about what I just said. Also, we have a Patreon and I want to thank everybody who has gone the extra mile to support my work financially. That's really huge and amazing. I appreciate that. There's a banner ad for that also on every episode page of the site. If you would like to receive a free, short, weekly email

• 1:42:51Rich Roll?

  from me, I send one out every Thursday. It's called Roll Call. It's got five, or six, or four, or three, usually five or six, just tips, tools, resources I stumbled across over the course of a week, usually a documentary, or a couple articles I read, the book that I'm reading, a podcast that I listen to. No spam, no affiliate links. I'm not trying to make any money. A lot of this stuff I also don't share on social media or on my blog. I just wanted to create, you know, a cool closed loop with those that are more intrigued about what I'm doing and what I have to say than perhaps the passive listener. So, it's free. You can sign up on my website and a myriad of places where you just enter

• 1:43:32Rich Roll?

  the email thing. Super easy. For all your Plant Power merch and schwag needs, you can find that at richroll.com. We've got signed copies of Finding Ultra and The Plant Power Way. We've got t-shirts, tech tees for running. All kinds of fun stuff. I want to thank today's sponsors. Health IQ, life insurance designed for the active and health conscious. Never overpay again. To learn more and get a free quote, go to healthiq.com/roll. And Casper, the number one online retailer of premium mattresses for a fraction of the price. Get $50 towards any mattress purchase today by visiting casper.com/roll and using promo code ROLL at checkout. I also want to thank everybody who helped put on today's show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering and production and help with the show notes.

• 1:44:17Rich Roll?

  He's taking on an expanded role with the podcast. Thanks, Jason. You're doing an amazing job. Shawn Patterson for all his wizardry on graphics. He does all those cool motion graphics that I've been sharing on Instagram. He's doing an amazing job. Theme music by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. I'll see you back here next week. In the meantime, make it great. Peace. Plants.