MAJOR SHIFT: Will Trump Split From Israel? Israeli Journalist on the Critical Situation in Iran.

Israeli journalist Gideon Levy says his government is guilty of committing genocide in Gaza and the United States is complicit. He joins us from the West Bank. (00:00) What’s Happening in Gaza and Lebanon? (05:47) Will the US Withdraw Its Support From Israel? (15:22) What Is Hamas? Is the War in Gaza Really About Hamas? (22:33) Where Will the Millions of Palestinians Go? (23:48) Is the US Doing Anything to Restrain Israel? (45:07) If Israel Lost the US, Who Would Their Other Partner Be? (48:48) What Is the Goal in Iran? Gideon Levy is an Israeli journalist and author. Levy writes opinion pieces and a weekly column for the newspaper Haaretz that often focus on the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. He has won prizes for his articles on human rights in the Israeli-occupied territories. Paid partnerships with: Joi + Blokes: Use code TUCKER for 65% off your labs and 20% off all supplements at https://joiandblokes.com/tucker Preborn: To donate please dial #250 and say keyword "BABY" or visit https://preborn.com/TUCKERStopBox USA: Get firearm security redesigned and save 10% off @StopBoxUSA with code TUCKER at https://stopboxusa.com/TUCKER Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Tucker Carlson?

  Gideon, muchas gracias por acompañarnos. Para los estadounidenses que están distraídos por lo que está pasando en Irán y con la economía de Estados Unidos y por muchas otras cosas, ¿puedes darnos la actualización sobre lo que está pasando ahora mismo en Gaza, el West Bank, la Samaria y el Libano?

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Es una guerra con algunas interrupciones. Es un rollercoaster. Vas a dormir en Tel Aviv con el cierro, te despiertas en la mañana con misiles balísticos sobre la cabeza. Gaza está sangrando y totalmente olvidada. Creo que tendremos la oportunidad de hablar más sobre Gaza, que es muy amada para mi corazón. En el Libano, los israelíes están luchando por nada, sin ningún propósito. La gente está asesinada, las comunas, todas las comunas están siendo destruidas sistemáticamente, muy similar a Gaza. Los soldados israelíes están asesinados casi diariamente, y todo esto parece una guerra

• 1:04Speaker 01

  en curso, sin ningún propósito, sin ninguna justificación, y sin ninguna ganancia final, ninguna verdadera meta. ¿Qué lo detendrá, excepto este deseo de luchar y luchar y luchar y matar?

• 1:23Tucker Carlson?

  ¿Cuál es el punto? Dices que no hay sentido, pero claramente es parte de una estrategia mayor, supongo. Quiero decir, tiene que ser. ¿Cuál crees que es el punto más importante de esto?

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Por lo tanto, Israel fue criado para creer que es condenado a vivir en su propia tierra, que el único idioma que podemos hablar en esta región, como si fuéramos los filas en el bosque, así que decirlo, el único idioma que podemos usar aquí es el idioma de poder militar, y tan brutal como sea posible. Esto fue antes de Netanyahu. Muchas cosas, por cierto, fueron antes de Netanyahu. Netanyahu intensificó esas cosas, y hoy, claramente, el único idioma que los israelíes hablan es el idioma de la guerra. Todo puede ser resuelto solo por la guerra. Nada puede ser resuelto de cualquier otro modo, como la diplomacia, los compromisos, etc.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  And here we are, involved in so many fronts. You know, Taka, there are around 6 billion people in the Middle East, who were expelled from their homes, who are uprooted, part of them will never see their homes again. 2 million in Gaza, 1 million in Lebanon. For a while, there were also 2 million in Iran, now not anymore. But, think about this. All of them because of wars of choice, all of them because of a very violent policy of Israel, which might here and there have the justification,

• 3:05Speaker 01

  like after the Semson October, another thing that I think we'll get into. But, the proportion, the scale. And where are we aiming? Where are we aiming, for God's sake? Is Israel today a better place? Is it a safer place than 2023? Is it more popular in the world? What did we gain out of all those wars? And unfortunately, Taka, those questions are hardly being discussed in Israel. And this, in many ways, depresses me almost more than the wars itself. The fact that a whole people, 10 million people, very intelligent,

• 3:46Speaker 01

  very ideological and with very clear views, go to all those wars blindly and automatically, without asking ourselves, "Why? What for? What do we gain?" Put aside the moral side. Let's say morality is for, you know, spoil the Gideon Levies, or leftist self-hating Jews. Practically, are we living in a better place?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  The answer is unfortunately not. You can add to it, obviously, Tucker, the all the personal motivations of Benjamin Netanyahu, which in my view are not exclusive, they are not the only. There are those among my friends who think that he does everything only for his career, only in order to stay in power. I give him more credit because I think he has an ideology, a very dangerous one, but he has an ideology which motivates him as well. But no doubt that those last wars serve first for his personal interests. He has a trial, he's doing very badly in the polls, and here he comes with another war, war after war.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  I want to ask, why did we have this need to bomb in Beirut two days ago? What did we achieve by this bombardment? Israel achieved anything out of it except of provoking Iran? And then we got this sleepless night last night with dozens of ballistic missiles over our heads. No one talks about it, no one asks it. And it's quite depressing to live in a society in which the main issues are not discussed. We discuss the wife of the prime minister, we discuss all kinds of gossips. We don't touch the core of the issue.

• 5:41Tucker Carlson?

  I'm, I live in a country very much like that, so I, I know the feeling well. Um, but just to stay on the point that you made about the practical effects of this, leaving aside the moral stain, whether it's the right decision ethically or not. But as a practical matter, you have to wonder how many wars a country as small as Israel, just physically small, with a population that small and an economy that small, just a little country, how many can you fight before you, you risk, you know, real retaliation, risk your own existence? I mean, how dangerous is this?

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, or unfortunately, Israel is a regional superpower from the military point of view. And no other country in the Middle East can beat Israel. They just can't. If they could, maybe they would. But Israel has still a very, very strong army with devices, technology, ammunition, and arms that your country was kind enough or too kind to supply Israel blindly and almost without conditions or limits. And Israel has the military answer almost for any challenge. And this is, on one hand, obviously, very good because we are safer.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  On the other hand, it corrupts also a country because it lets Israel to go wild, to go to all kinds of military adventures, knowing that by the end of the day, we are not endangering the existence of real assets. But because we are always stronger and we won all the wars, militarily, politically, we lost them all.

• 7:26Tucker Carlson?

  Is there a concern that the United States, in the next, I don't know, five or 10 years, might begin to withdraw its unconditional support for Israel?

• 7:37Speaker 01

  You say five, 10 years, and I would say five to 10 months.

• 7:41Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, I agree with that.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  It's happening right now. I think that we are reaching a stage in which we will face a major shift in US policy toward Israel.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Biden was the last Zionist, so to say, president. Donald Trump was the last one who accepted almost all the ideas, the craziness of Israel, and until now, we still have time to see. But until now, he went along the Israeli psycho.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  But the next president, would he be Democrat or Republican? One thing is sure, those relations will be challenged, more or less, but they will not go any more automatically and blindly. Maybe the aid will continue, but at least it will be conditioned. The problem is that it's, you know what? You want to supply Israel, you think that Israel, Israel is the most, the country that it is at need more than any other country in the world. And you want to supply it with everything like any country in the world. Fair enough, put some conditions. Put some conditions according to the American interest.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Israel is not following, neither the international law, nor the American advances for many, many years. The United States is speaking about the two-state solution for decades, and Israel is just ignoring it and doing anything possible to sabotage this idea. I think this is over, and it's question of months, not of years. Maybe still in Donald Trump's time, maybe the next president, and then Israel will be in a real problem. Because without the United States in its current position, this will be a challenge that Israel never faced before.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  In my view, much more dangerous and existentially dangerous than the nuclear of Iran.

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• 12:41Tucker Carlson?

  Blokes. I agree with that. Do others in Israel see that coming? And what do they think of it? What is the view of the United States and Donald Trump in Israel?

• 12:52Speaker 01

  To Donald Trump, as you know, is more popular in Israel than in the United States.

• 12:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Actually, he is more popular in Israel than any other place in the world. It can change, obviously, if he will change his attitude. The problem is, again, that the Israeli discourse does not touch those questions. We don't speak about the occupation, we don't speak about the apartheid, we don't speak about our relations and our dependence on the United States. You know, we are now in a stage of dependence which we never faced before. I don't think Israel ever faced such dependence of the United States because all the rest of the world, you know how is treating Israel and what do

• 13:39Speaker 01

  the majority of the people in the world, what do they think about Israel? Paul's show what a pariah state is, Israel, and in many ways rightly so. And here comes the United States, and if the United States will change its policy, what will Israel do? How will it go on, even militarily? Not to speak about politically in the international arena. Europe is just waiting to get a green light from the United States to change its policy toward Israel. Europe is paralyzed because of the fear of Donald Trump and the United States. Once the United States will shift its policy, I'm sure that you will see

• 14:21Speaker 01

  big, major shifts also in Europe, because the public opinion is by far more hostile toward Israel than the governments in Europe. This will have to be expressed by policies, by real measures, not only by articles in newspapers. So we are facing a really horrible challenge in the coming months, not in the coming years, and there is no one to deal with it. We still think that we can do whatever we want, and this thought, Taker, got such a boost after the 7th of October. Israelis tend to believe that after the 7th of October, we have the right to do whatever we want.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  And this is very dangerous.

• 15:08Tucker Carlson?

  Yes. It's interesting, everything you said is very clear from here. It matches my perceptions exactly, but you say no one is saying this out loud in Israel?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  And if he says, nobody would listen, yeah? No, look, major principal issues are not discussed in the last three years. You cannot express it. We are still victimizing ourselves about the 7th of October. We are still victimizing ourselves as the David against the Goliaths. The whole Arab world wants to exterminate us, to push us to the ocean. And we still believe that we are the chosen people, yes. If you will scratch under the skin of every Israeli, I believe, secular and religious, you will hear again and again, "No, no, we are better, we know better, we are better."

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Take, for example, the international law. Israel is very much in favor of the international law. It was brought to the world after the Holocaust, after World War II. Israel is very much in favor of it. But it is not a Bible about Israel, because we are a special case. And therefore, the international law cannot be applied to Israel. And if you dare to apply it to Israel, you'll be labeled as an anti-Serban. How dare you? We are a special case, Tucker. And this way of thinking must bring Israel to very dark allies, to very dark corners, which I don't know how we'll get out of them.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  And I'm sorry that I'm so pessimistic, but the last three years, really, we went too far, too far.

• 16:57Tucker Carlson?

  Yes. Well, you see this with individuals and not just countries. It's called hubris in English, and it usually doesn't end until there's a lot of suffering and people wake up from their delusions about... I mean, I think it happens to every man. It's happened to me, but it happens at the scale of a nation, too. It's sad. So let me ask you about Gaza. What is the point of Gaza? In the US, our media says the point is to dismantle Hamas, which is a terror organization. It's effectively legal in the United States to say nice things about Hamas. What is Hamas from your perspective? And is the war in Gaza or the military bombardment of Gaza designed to end Hamas? Is that true?

• 17:43Speaker 01

  No, Takia. And this is the conclusion that I came to just recently. It's very clear for me that the war in Gaza is a war to crush the Palestinian society in Gaza and finally also to make them leave. Now, how do I know it? The matter of fact is that Israel is opposing any kind of deal about Gaza. It's not that they don't want Hamas, but they don't want also the PA. They don't want an international force. They don't want nothing. They want the people of Gaza, over 2 million people, both of them living now in tents. I have some friends and old age friends who are living now two and a half years in a tent without electricity.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Close friends. One of them is after a stroke, lying on the ground, on the sand for two and a half years now without his medicines. I mean, I can't describe you his agony, his suffering. Israel wants to crush the society, no, to make them, you know, a bunch of handicapped, wounded, traumatized society without leadership, without any functional society, any functional institutions. Why are we opposing that Hamas will run the civilian in Gaza? They are the only one who can do it right now. There is no one else. Why can't they be the teachers?

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Why can't they be the lawyers, the judges, the street cleaners, the policemen?

• 19:21Speaker 01

  No, we say no because we don't want all this to exist. We want anarchy there. And then will come the real wet dream of some Israel, is not all of them, to get to the real, I don't want to use the word "final solution", but to get to a real solution which will last, namely to push them to the south, and then from the south to try to find them another place on earth, which they will never find. But you cannot explain otherwise the attitude of Israel towards solving the problem of Gaza. If Israel would have really liked to get a solution, she would have had to come up with an idea of how

• 20:03Speaker 01

  to make Gaza a livable, viable place and society. Israel is doing all the opposite that it can, crashing the society. And I'm afraid that the next stage will be the West Bank, crashing the Palestinian people, and not only militarily, making it a non-society. Because many Israelis truly believe that it's either us or them. And I believe it is us and them. But I am very lonely in Israel now.

• 20:37Tucker Carlson?

  If the government of Israel were to succeed in expelling almost 2 million Palestinians from Gaza, and then took it over, does anyone believe that is itself a solution? I mean, it's obviously a crime, but the long-term repercussions from that will destroy Israel, it would seem to me. That just seems un... Take the moral calculation out of it as a practical matter that seems insane.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Why, it worked very well in 1948. The first Nakba, the first Nakba was a hell of a success. We expelled over 600,000 Palestinians. We destroyed all the villages. We didn't leave anything except of some mosque and some graves. All the rest totally destroyed. Covered it up with trees and nice parks.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  And it worked. And me as a child, growing up in this place, born here, going up here. You know, the first time I heard the word Nakba was when I was 20, 25. I never asked myself, what are those ruins around me here and there in Tel Aviv, in other places? Never thought that maybe someone owns it? Maybe someone is living now in a refugee camp instead of his home? Those things were totally oppressed and were not legitimate. Until now, they're not legitimate. So the first Nakba was a hell of a success. Why not to continue? I mean, for those people, I don't say the majority of Israelis want this to happen.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  The majority of Israelis have another disease, namely being apathetic and indifferent. But the right-wingers, for sure, they want it to happen. And they are the only decisive part of the society. The settlers, the right-wingers, the fascists, they are the most powerful and most active. They have at least a plan. And what plan do the leftists in Israel have, the Zionist leftists? What do they suggest? The alternative now, the opposition, what is their idea? What is their plan, for God's sake? They are opposing now a two-state solution. Yael appealed the other, they say the head of the opposition, yes?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Say that not in the coming 10 years, another 10 years, which it's not coming. And meanwhile, I believe that the two-state solution died a long time ago. We missed this train. But in any case, what do you suggest? What are we suggesting to 7.5 million Palestinians who live between the river and the sea? Together with 7.5 million Jews who are living between the river and the sea? What are we offering them? Apartheid forever? The right-wingers at least have a plan. Now we'll expel them.

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• 25:25Tucker Carlson?

  Where do they imagine millions of Palestinians will go if they're expelled?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  That's the weak part of their fantasy because they don't believe they will find the place they were looking for, as you know, even in recent months. They look in Somalia and Eritrea and God knows where, Africa, all kinds of places. We give them money and we'll send them. It didn't work and it will never work. I mean, no country in the world will accept millions of Palestinians. No way. Egypt doesn't want to get them, obviously, and rightly so. Jordan had enough with the refugees of 48. Lebanon had enough from the refugees of 48. They have no place to go. But the fact that this idea is motivating the president is by itself very dangerous.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Maybe finally it will end up like the Native Americans, you know? Totally forgotten, be in all kinds of reserves, living without any heritage, without any, anything in communion, a bunch of people who, who lost their identity. Maybe this will be the end also of the Palestinian people, if it will go on like this.

• 26:42Tucker Carlson?

  Is the United States government doing anything to restrain Israel in these plans, that you can tell?

• 26:49Speaker 01

  I think the United States is a full partner.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Look, we cannot think that what Israel is doing, knowing the dependence of Israel on the United States, we can't say that the United States is opposing it. You know, all the big liberal presidents, above all Barack Obama, with his wonderful, wonderful speeches and ideas, I had tears in my eyes when he was elected. What did he do? Did he stop Israel? His, his military aid was bigger than any other president, unconditional. So the United States is a partner for everything. If we talk about genocide in Gaza, the United States is a partner, if you like it or not. It's not the main partner, our accountability above all.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  But you know, they supply, they support, and they could do differently. It's not like you say, you know, a, a some country in Africa who wants to stop a genocide, but can't do anything. The United States has the skills, has the leverage to stop, and it never, never did, not the settlements. When did Americans stop the settlements? Which is much more innocent than a genocide. What did they really do to stop the settlement project? They could in one phone call, put an end to it. One phone call in which they would say, I'm oversimplifying it, obviously.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  One phone call saying, listen, if you build one more terrace in the occupied territories, there is no aid to Israel, period. And in this day, the settlement movement would have died. But there was no president to do so.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  So the United States, if you speak about the settlements, United States is a partner. If you speak about the war in Gaza, you may agree with me that it was a genocide or not. It doesn't matter. The United States is a partner, a manager partner, with moral responsibility, yes.

• 28:53Tucker Carlson?

  Everything you're saying is true and provably true. These are not opinions, these are facts. What is up for debate is why? Why has a succession, every US president since Harry Truman in 1948, gone along with this? Why has there been no meaningful condition attached to any of this aid, military and economic? Like, what is this?

• 29:20Speaker 01

  I think it's up to you to answer, Tucker. For me, it's a big mystery, really. There were years in which I really felt that we don't know who is the superpower between the two.

• 29:32Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  There were those years that Israel really put the United States in its small pockets, we're saying, people. Totally ignoring, you know, totally ignoring advices, condemnation, threats, totally ignoring it, doing whatever it wants without any restraint. And I asked myself, how come with all this money and political aid, United States is paying a hell of a price? I don't have to tell you. For the support to Israel and the game, please continue to support, but put some conditions to this. I have no answer, it's a mystery, you know. To say that it is the Jewish lobby will be oversimplification because it cannot be that one minority is so powerful.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Not only it smells anti-Semitic, but I don't think it can be the full answer. Yes, the Jewish lobby was very powerful for many years. Not enough. United States does not share the guilt feelings of Europe. There, the guilt feelings about the Holocaust are very influential and stay in the back mind of any politician in Europe. In the United States, you don't share any guilt feelings toward Israel. I don't know, you should, you should answer this.

• 30:47Tucker Carlson?

  I don't have an answer myself, and I agree with you. AIPAC is very powerful. AIPAC is disgusting from my perspective, but they're not powerful enough to do what we're seeing now. So I agree. I only have theories, no real answers, but it is a question that we should be thinking about, I think. What is the Board of Peace, do you think?

• 31:14Speaker 01

  In Gaza.

• 31:15Tucker Carlson?

  Yes. The president has announced this international board that's going to run Gaza to redevelop it as a real estate project and put in casinos and make this beautiful new world. He has said, but I think most Americans are confused as to what this actually is. Do you have any idea?

• 31:39Speaker 01

  No, and there is no idea. There were very nice ceremonies, as the president like. Did they renovate one house in Gaza? We are now almost three years. One house was renovated, one institution. One person in Gaza can say that he lives human life now? One in the entire Gaza Strip? I don't know what they do, but I know one thing, that as long as we will not see effects on the ground, it's meaningless. There were so many so-called peace councils before with all the after inch attack of Israel, major attack on Gaza.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  There was always a huge conference somewhere in Europe or the United States with a lot of surprise, a lot of promises to rehabilitate Gaza, to bring a lot of investors to Gaza, to rebuild Gaza. I personally, I was once, I will never forget this day, invited to a launching of a new hotel in Gaza, which was supposed to be like a resort place for Israelis.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Two weeks later, started another war and the place was totally destroyed. So, all the talking about rebuilding Gaza are not very, even if the money is there, the money is also not coming there. Because there is no political plan for Gaza. It's very nice, your good intention to build casinos there. First of all, who is going to run Gaza? Where Gaza will be a free place? This is the first question, not the last question. First of all, guarantee the freedom of Gaza. It is impossible that 2.5 million people will not even have citizenship. Tell me, Tucker, which people in the world lives without citizenship of any country?

• 33:34Speaker 01

  The most oppressed people live with citizenship. Those people in Gaza have no citizenship, no passport of any country. Is it sustainable? Is it acceptable? We are in 2026, that this phenomena will continue again? It's not only that they don't have, there is no plan for the future, no vision, nothing. So, I cannot take it seriously. By the way, like also this horrible aid organization that the American had before. As you know, I saw your unbelievable conversation with Dr. Minard,

• 34:13Speaker 01

  the British surgeon from Oxford, which you talked with in my view, and really shaking conversation, I was so shaken by this conversation of you. And listen to him, what he has to say about this organization who was supposed to bring food to Gaza. How many people lost their life on the lines to this food? Again, American initiative. So, this will not be the solution. You first of all have to make Gaza a free place. And then, you have to find a way to let Gaza be run by itself. They are human beings like any other human being. Let them build their own institutions.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  They deserve it. By the way, I agree so much with Dr. Maynard because he described in your conversation how much he loves the people of Gaza. If there is one place in the world in which I would love to be one more time in my life, this is Gaza. I mean, I know that for most of the Israelis, this sounds insane. But I wish more Israelis would have met the people of Gaza, the courage of Gaza, the sense of humor of Gaza. But you know, if I say it in Israel, they think they're hospitalized me, I guess.

• 35:34Tucker Carlson?

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• 37:21Tucker Carlson?

  Is there a sense within Israel of what's happening in Gaza? How many people have died? In Gaza?

• 37:30Speaker 01

  No sense and no interest. It's very interesting because Israel, as you know, has a free media, a free press. Most of it private-owned, private-owned, and we are free to write whatever we want. I'm the best example. I have total freedom of speech. The problem is that because of commercial considerations, they want to please the viewers, their readers, and not to bother them. This goes on for many years. The occupation is not covered at all in Israel. And then came the 7th of October. Again, I'm getting back to this crucial day which changed Israel.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Changed for many years, I'm afraid. And after the 7th of October, it was very clear to every Israeli that we have no interest in Gaza. Why would we bother about Gaza? They are all terrorists. They are all Hamas. And the media cowardly stopped, stopped covering Gaza. I can ensure you, Taker, that any TV viewer in Omaha, Nebraska, saw so much more of Gaza than a Tel Avivian who lives next to me. I can ensure you. And they don't want to see it. It's not that they want to see it and the media doesn't show it. No, we don't want to hear, we don't want to see. Look, can I give you an example?

• 38:58Tucker Carlson?

  Please.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  I'm coming, Monday is my travel day to the West Bank. I traveled today to a hospital in Gaza, in Hebron. I wish it was Gaza. Hospital in Hebron, in which I met the family of the baby of seven months who was killed by an Israeli soldier last Friday. Israeli soldier shooting a baby of seven months in the car of his family, daytime, I mean, there was daylight, 7 o'clock in the evening was daylight. The whole family, grandmother, father, mother, and two children in a car. The car stops. The soldier, after the car stopped, took two shots, killed the baby in his head.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Horrible story.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Do you really think that Israel was troubled by this story? Except of my newspaper, I would think that anyone bothered to bring the story? They mentioned it, yeah. But the framing of it was, you know, some kind of incident, not really serious. Imagine yourself a Jewish baby is being kept like this. With a rifle from ten meters. Nothing. He saw them and he shot. I don't know why. He claims he felt danger, no, it is so dangerous to meet a family with two children and grandmother who is eighty, it is so dangerous to the soldier. And he shot him. Now,

• 40:29Speaker 01

  the fact that this is happening has to do also with the fact that it doesn't bother any Israeli, or almost no Israelis. Not many, of, true, there are those who are very important. But most of the Israelis don't want to hear about it. And if they hear about it, you know, I told it today to some friend of mine and she told me, yeah, but he didn't intend to kill him. For God's sake, how do you know that he didn't intend to kill him? Two months ago, they killed another family in the car. Which is this automatic justification to the army and to everything they do? So, getting back to your question, when you don't want to know, when you live in denial,

• 41:11Speaker 01

  look, you cannot maintain such a brutal occupation for so many years, fifty-nine years now, without denying it. Because otherwise you would be out of your mind. The Israelis are not monsters. They have their emotions, they, the part of them are liberals, they couldn't live with it. The only way to live with it is by denying and live with this denial and keep the denial so that no one will, will break the denial because we really don't want to know. You know, and you've used, no. The West Bank is half an hour away from our home. It's not overseas, some colony. In half an hour, in one hour I'm in Hebron.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  In one hour I'm in Gaza by car. It's here, our backyard. But we don't want to know what's going on here. And the Israeli media, unfortunately, most of it is the biggest collaborator with the occupation by...

• 42:11Speaker 01

  Supplying their consumers the service of pleasing them and not bothering them and not telling the Israelis the truth about what we are doing on a daily basis. And again, Tucker, this is not only Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir and Smotrich. It started much before. They did it worse, much worse. They legitimized many things they did. But don't blame them and don't hope that after they will be gone, things will be different. They will not be different on those issues. Other issues, yes. The occupation will be as paragonic as it is. Gaza will continue to suffer as it suffers if it will be small as, what's his name,

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Lapid or Eisenkot or whoever, same thing.

• 43:02Tucker Carlson?

  You anticipated my next question, which was, will this change when the current leadership changes? And that's a depressing answer that you just gave. I wonder how much do Israelis pay attention to their supporters in the United States? We have a number of high-profile supporters of Israel in the United States who have the same positions as Smotrich and Ben-Gavir and Netanyahu. Are Israelis aware of that? Does it matter to them?

• 43:29Speaker 01

  For many years, it matters to Israelis. When the United States hugged Israel, when Israel was the darling of the West, and it was the darling of the West.

• 43:41Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Let's face it, Israel could do things that no other country in the world could do. But when the public opinion in the United States, like elsewhere, started to shift, it was immediately labeled as antisemitic, as you know personally.

• 43:58Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Exactly as you know personally. And immediately, they labeled everyone as antisemitic. And then the only way to cope is by blaming the United States. It's not us, it's you. You're an antisemite. It's not us, criminal of war. It's you, the antisemite. That's the point. So Israelis are aware that they are the evangelists who still support Israel. There are still some members of the Jewish communities, obviously, who support blindly Israel. But... Israel gave up on the world, I think. The Israelis convince themselves that whatever we do, the world is against us. So why would we bother?

• 44:42Speaker 01

  And you see practically, we know we are not beloved, but it doesn't bother us enough. That's the point. We don't ask, why don't they love us? We are not courageous enough to look at the truth and ask, why did they love us after Oslo? Why after Oslo, Israel was so popular? And why now Israel is a parastic? We put immediately the blame on the world, not on ourselves. We never check ourselves. We did something wrong. Maybe we exaggerate in Gaza. Maybe bombarding Beirut is not the right thing to do. No, no, it's the world who hates us.

• 45:24Tucker Carlson?

  Well, in a world of the globalized economy, that has real consequences potentially. So if the United States begins to withdraw its support for Israel, Israel would need a new partner in order to continue living as it has been living. Who would that partner be, do you think?

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Compared with the right-wingers, the settlers, the radical right-wingers, they at least seem not to care. So we will, as they say, we will fight with our hands. Yeah, we will fight Iran with our hands. Good luck. Others, because Israeli discourse does not include any thoughts about the future, any thoughts. We don't think what will be tomorrow, where are we aiming? I mean, how will Israel look in 10 years? It's not in our agenda. We are living the day. And therefore, we ignore those questions. And people say, you know, we trust ourselves.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Israelis have this sense that we will always be able to improvise a new partner or maybe mislead another president and promise him the sky and continue to do it. Until now, it was working very well for Israel, you must admit.

• 46:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Life in Israel is economically, we are better than any many other countries in the world, even in times that we are parastic. And now with the armies, who will stop us?

• 47:00Tucker Carlson?

  What is the goal of the war with Iran? What's the point of this?

• 47:07Speaker 01

  So, no, but that's the life project of Netanyahu and we have to give him a credit for this.

• 47:13Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  He speaks about it for decades.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  And I believe that he believes that it is a real existential danger.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  And I believe that he believes that this can be challenged only by war. And his wet dream was four years to attack Iran militarily. He didn't believe in any kind of agreements and deals, like he doesn't believe in any agreement with the Palestinians or any kind of compromise or diplomacy.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  And he tried, as you know, with few American presidents to persuade them to go for war together because Israel cannot go to war with Iran without the United States. It's practically not sustainable. And then he found Donald Trump and in a way he succeeded to persuade him again. I think the accountability is Trump's. I don't buy that Netanyahu can push Trump into a war. You know Trump much better than I and you know that he's not so easily pushed into a war somewhere far away.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  If Donald Trump decided to go for war with Iran, it's his responsibility no less than Netanyahu's.

• 48:37Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, I agree with you.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  If this is the case, then Israel found, I mean Netanyahu, it's all Netanyahu now, about Iran, it's all Netanyahu. He found the opportunity of his life to try once and for all a military campaign against Iran. And maybe he believed that he can achieve the goals, namely regime change, dismantling the nuclear capability, dismantling the ballistic missiles and also he had the dream to disconnect between Iran and the proxies. What he didn't take into account that all those goals are unachievable, even in a war.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  And now he stands before deadlock exactly like Donald Trump stands before deadlock. They tried war, quite messy. He didn't bring any achievements. Don't buy all those talkings about how many boats were hit and how many cannons. It's, you know, Iran is still strong and alive and kicking. The regime is maybe stronger than it was. And now there is no goal because the goals which were on the agenda were found as unachievable. Now, the idea is to realize that there are things which are unachievable or for sure are unachievable by force.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Not everything can be achieved by force. But people like Netanyahu don't accept it. What is not achievable by force will be achievable by more force. That's the way they think. And therefore, we are again and again in Lebanon, third time now, with the same strategy which twice totally failed and will fail now. Same in Gaza, same in Iran. It will lead us to nowhere. But you know, when a people do not, does not learn from its own experience, we face a problem.

• 50:48Tucker Carlson?

  Why would Netanyahu continue to push Trump to keep the war going when no goals have been achieved and it doesn't seem possible that any of them will be achieved? Iran is not going to fall apart. It's not going to disintegrate into civil war because of the US Israeli bombing campaign. What, why would Netanyahu want to keep it going?

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Because otherwise he has to admit that his life project failed.

• 51:16Tucker Carlson?

  Hmm.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Otherwise, he has to admit that he was wrong along the way. He has to admit that pushing Barack Obama to pull out of the agreement was an historical major mistake. He has to admit all this.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  And besides, he maybe still believes that maybe more aggression will bring more results, I don't know. The fact is that even the bombarding of Lebanon is in a way also a tool to sabotage any agreement with Iran, between the United States and Iran. And we see the linkage now. And he will do anything possible to prevent an agreement still, because either he doesn't believe in anything else, or he's not courageous enough to stand face in front of the mirror and say, "My life project failed. I didn't get it and I couldn't get it because it's unachievable by force."

• 52:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  But I don't think he's courageous enough for this.

• 52:23Tucker Carlson?

  What do Israelis think of the war with Iran?

• 52:27Speaker 01

  First of all, you saw the first days, 93% of Israelis supported the war with Iran. Now, Turkey, 93% is a figure that you get only in North Korea.

• 52:39Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  In polls, or in a good day, maybe also in... There is nothing like 93. If you go now to a poll, asking Israelis if today is Monday, you will not get 93%. You will not get...

• 52:54Tucker Carlson?

  No, that's so true.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  You will get 70, 80. Yeah, and some will say, "I have no opinion," and others will say, "I don't know." You will not get 93%. And here you got 93%. First of all, you get support to end war in Israel in its beginning, for sure, automatically and blindly. There was not one war that Israel launched, and we know today how many of the wars were unnecessary, if not worse than this. You get immediately a support. The whole people unites along the lines of the army, our military foes, our pride, we have to do something, it's an opportunity, ta ta ta ta ta ta, blah, blah, blah.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Then are coming the question marks. With Iran, it was even more so, because I don't remember 93% of support. Now it's smaller, but it's still the majority. You want to say that in Israel mindset, launching a war will always be more popular than a peace agreement. Try to get now to any kind of agreement with Lebanon. You will not get not ninety-three percent and maybe not thirty-nine percent of support. That's the mindset. The mindset is of living on the sword and only living on a sword and not believing in anything else. Not believing that Arabs are human beings like us, not believing in any agreements with them. You can't trust them.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  And the most funny notion is that the Arabs understand only the language of power.

• 54:32Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  On violence, while the matter of fact is that Israel is understanding language. So, yeah, something very basic is is calling for a reset in Israeli society. And there is no one to do this reset. And therefore, I'm so pessimistic.

• 54:53Tucker Carlson?

  How are you treated? I mean, you've spoken so plainly and directly about what's happening in Israel. And as you just said, ninety-three percent of the population disagrees with you. So what is it like for you to live there right now as a lifelong Israeli?

• 55:10Speaker 01

  First of all, I thank you for the compliment, but there are no seven percent of Israelis who agree with me. So you exaggerate. I really appreciate it, but I wish I had seven percent. No, there are no. And, look, I'm a, I'm old enough to look backwards. And I was always lonely.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Two thousand fourteen, I had bodyguards. Now I feel very safe, I must say. My freedom of speech is totally kept in my newspaper. On the other hand, there is this phenomena that, for example, in Israeli TV for three years now. I used to be often on Israeli TV. For the last three years, they didn't invite me. I mean, they invited me twice in three years, while I was at least once, twice a week on Israeli TV. The Israeli media, except for ours, which is my home and my... My safe place, except the Harretts, there is no room for views like mine. It's not personal. There is no room for it. There is no room in all those endless panels on Israeli TV

• 56:23Speaker 01

  for any kind of alternative view. You must say only what everyone else says. Otherwise, you will not invite. Now, personally, on one hand, I am very grateful to the fact that I have still my freedom. I can talk to you and say whatever. Maybe people will curse me. There is this woman who, every morning, when I'm jogging in the park, is screaming at my head, 5:30 in the morning. Oh, like a crazy woman. But she's really an exception. I know the issue, really not. I'm very grateful to live in a place where, at least if you are a Jew, you have your rights, at least until now.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  I have my home, Harretts. I express my views. I cannot complain about anything, but I feel more lonely than ever. After the 7th of October, some of my best friends, as we say, shifted. Some of my best friends changed their views. I was never so lonely, never.

• 57:29Tucker Carlson?

  Are you gonna stay?

• 57:31Speaker 01

  For my last, until my last breath. Sure, I'll stay. I was born here, I die here. My wife is Swedish. I could easily live. But sure, I'll stay. That's my place. I mean, I'm attached to this place. I'm not, you know, observed from the outside. I'm very attached to this place, and this makes the whole thing much more painful because I'm attached so much to Israel.

• 57:57Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Because I feel that all those things are in that mindy half. Because I feel that I was cheated as a child, telling me all kinds of stories about the beginning of the state, which were not the full truths. So I feel cheated. I feel ashamed in many cases. I feel guilty, deep guilty toward the Palestinian people from the beginning, not from what's going on now, for all 48. But, but you know, for the better, for the good, it is my place. I will never leave as long as I can stay here. No, that's my language. My parents came here in thirty nine.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  My father was in an illegal boat for half a year in the sea. Six hundred people on a boat. I can't even imagine how it was. Where from did they get supply? Any ports in the Middle East, in the Mediterranean, wouldn't let them get down. Until they were detained in Beirut, Lebanon. Finally, he got here. He had no clue. Judaism, Zionism, never knew the difference between Purim and Yom Kippurim. Between one Jewish holiday to the other, always asked me, when do they fast? When do they eat? So, no clue. But this was his only rescue. He couldn't go elsewhere. He left his fiance and parents and never saw them again.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  My mother came here in a project of children, saving children. She was sixteen when she came here, Turkey boots. They were not Zionist or not anti-Zionist, they were not political. They had very nice life in Europe. And all of a sudden, something uprooted them from Europe. And Israel, Palestine was their only rescue. I cannot forget it. And therefore, I'm very, very attached to all my memories. Can you be attached from Maine, from United States? I don't know. I cannot to be uprooted from there. I mean, all my memories are here, all my friends. It's not even an issue. It's not even an issue. I will stay here as long as I can. Maybe one day I'll be forced to leave.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  With those Smotriches will continue. Who knows? But no, no, I'll stay here. I'm old enough also.

• 1:00:15Tucker Carlson?

  I feel the same way about my country. When, looking back on your long life in Israel, when? And you said that the roots of what we're seeing now began long before Smotrich and Ben Gavir took power. What was the moment you would point to where the country changed?

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  I'm not sure it's the moment that the country checked. I'm not sure the country changed. I think my attitude changed.

• 1:00:45Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Because if I look now backwards, you see that it was all there in the beginning of Zalmism.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  It's not. The country basically are using today the same methods like in the Nakba of 48. Namely, oppressing the Palestinians, trying to push them away, trying to tyrannize them in order to push them out, trying to take over their economy, their life, their heritage, everything. This started long before the state was born. This started with the beginning of Zalmism and never stopped. If it was acceptable then, you know, 48, Holocaust, people like my parents, you need to build a state,

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  you cannot be too moral, so to say. But we never stopped this. In this very moment, we spoke about Gaza before. What's the difference? Go and see the West Bank. What they do now in the West Bank, I'm every week in the West Bank, what they do now in the West Bank is exactly what the first Zalmists did in 48. The thing is that then there was a state. And now we have this regional superpower and still we want more and still for more real estate and more land. So, you know, those things are very hard to change. So I don't think it is a change so much.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Yes, Smotrich, Ben Gvir and the Bavel Netanyahu who legitimized them did a big shift mainly by legitimizing. You know, we had this Rabbi Menel Kahane.

• 1:02:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Who, you Americans were kind enough to export him to us and we are very grateful for this. I would, I really, if you have, if you should have any guilt feelings, it's for exporting Ben Kahane to Israel.

• 1:02:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, from Brooklyn to Israel. I remember it.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Exactly. Thank you. Thank you, America.

• 1:02:48Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  But Mel Kahane, when he was speaking in the parliament, the Likud members would step out. He was not legitimized because he was a racist. They couldn't, nobody was accepting him. And finally, he was declared illegal until he was murdered in the United States. Today, what is Smotrich or Bank? Bankver is a declared pupil of Kahane, but much worse in his sadism. I'm not sure Kahane was such a sadist. Bankver is a real sadist. Look how he treats the Palestinian prisoners. You see the sadism, the happiness of watching them suffer. There's really something sick in this man.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  But this was there. This government just legitimized it. So this is a big shift, the legitimization. But I think that above all, I changed, not Israel changed. And I changed due to only one thing. It's not like one day I was walking in the dark forest and all of a sudden God revealed to me and told me, "You have to think about the Palestinian people." In a very incidental way, back in the late 80s, I started to travel as a journalist to the West Bank and to Gaza. Very innocent. I was a good boy, Tel Aviv.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  I was working with Shimon Peres for four years. I was serving the Israeli army in the army radio station. So I was not brought up as a dissident. And I started to travel to the West Bank and Gaza. And very soon, I realized that the big drama of Israel is there. This is what defines Israel, the occupation. There is no one to tell it, or almost no one to tell it. And that I know nothing about it, me personally. I was in the darkness. And then I started gradually to cover the occupation until I made it the mission of my life. And then gradually, my views became more and more radical.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  The more I saw, the more radical I became. I believe that almost every Israeli who would witness or what I witnessed in the last forty years that I'm working for Aret, I believe that it's part of the Israelis who would share the same views like me. So the shift was in me, not in the country. The country is doing the same, is running the same principles from forty-eight until today. And this is so worrying me, because it's not that we all of a sudden change. For the Zionist leftists, it's very convenient to say, oh, this Netanyahu, he brought this curse on our heads.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  We were so beautiful before, so honest, so innocent, and then came this evil Netanyahu and made us into a parastate. No, my dear friends, we did it before Netanyahu and will continue to it after Netanyahu. And Netanyahu did very bad things, but don't put everything on him. And Shimon Peres and Tzak Rabin, who got the Nobel Peace Prize, are responsible to more settlements than Netanyahu. They started the project of settlements, together with other people in the Labour Party. So let's realize that something much deeper is sick, and not only Netanyahu and his government,

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  which I'd be very happy to see them stepping down, obviously, but it will not solve the basic problems, unfortunately. We have to find something optimistic, Taker. We cannot just move on with the tide.

• 1:06:42Tucker Carlson?

  I agree. I just, I, I, I can't argue with anything that you've said, and I hope that every American watches the last hour of your explanation of what's happening in Israel, because I think it's, um, I think it's essential for Americans to understand that. And I also keep thinking, thirty years ago, I knew, I felt like I knew many Israelis who would say what you just said, and now, um, now you're almost alone. So, thank you. Thank you for everything you've said and for what you're doing, and Godspeed. Good luck.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  Thank you, Taker, for this opportunity. I really appreciate it.

• 1:07:21Tucker Carlson?

  I do.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:07:22Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you, Kieran.