Science Pioneers with Danni Washington

Who proved the existence of dark matter? On this episode, Neil deGrasse Tyson and comic co-host Chuck Nice learn about hidden figures of science you need to know about with author and science communicator Danni Washington.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist. I got with me my co-host Chuck. Chuck, always good to have you there, man.

• 0:23Chuck Nice?

  Always a pleasure to be here, Neil.

• 0:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You bring a force of levity to all content that has gravity on this program.

• 0:30Chuck Nice?

  See, and listen, even when you talk comedy, you still do it in science terms. It's still, I mean, the terms are still astrophysical when you're talking about.

• 0:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I think the universe is hilarious, so that's why. So today's topic are science pioneers.

• 0:48Chuck Nice?

  Ooh.

• 0:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Science pioneers.

• 0:50Chuck Nice?

  Always good.

• 0:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We don't do this as often as we should.

• 0:52Chuck Nice?

  Always a good topic.

• 0:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because all kinds of scientists out there that, you know, might not have made headlines, but they're there and they're getting the job done.

• 1:00Chuck Nice?

  Let me ask you this, as a scientist. Do you think that it's better to be on the cutting edge and risk being ahead of your time or to be in the sweet spot and perhaps either prove or make the big discovery?

• 1:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just, I, both. Why you gotta make everything binary, Chuck? We live in a spectrum world. Anyway, we've got a guest today who has some expertise in finding scientists who are pioneers and are worth talking about. And we've got Danny Washington. Danny, welcome to StarTalk.

• 1:41Speaker 02

  Thank you very much. Hey, what's up? It's so good to be here. I'm really excited. I've been looking forward to this for a very long time.

• 1:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Excellent. And you'd reminded me, we had met several years ago. You had attended a live recording of StarTalk at the American Museum of Natural History under the sphere of the Hayden Planetarium.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  Sure did.

• 1:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it's great to have you sort of back in the fold.

• 2:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally full circle.

• 2:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You've been busy the last few years. And first, you've got a podcast called the Genius Generation Podcast. And I'm guessing it's not my generation who messed up here.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Well, no, not quite. It's definitely not your generation and it's not even my generation.

• 2:20Chuck Nice?

  Oh, okay. Well, thank God it's not your generation. That's all that counts.

• 2:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, no.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  This podcast is awesome because it focuses on young people under the age of 18 who have either found a recent discovery or created new businesses that are changing the game in different realms of STEM. And I had so much fun interviewing these young people. They're brilliant. And it made me realize like, what am I doing with my life? These kids are like 12 years old, making incredible discoveries. And you're like, what?

• 2:49Chuck Nice?

  Don't worry, Danny, don't worry. They're just peaking early.

• 2:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. They're gonna burn out later? Is that what you're saying?

• 2:57Chuck Nice?

  By the time they're 26, they'll be washed up. I'm joking. No, joking.

• 3:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Danny, you're an ocean person. And I don't think we have enough of such people in this world. The ocean is most of Earth's surface and so much we don't know. And frankly, you know, space kind of siphons off a lot of what could be attention also given to Earth's surface. By surface, I mean including the oceans, you know, Earth, the planet. And so you're founder of an ocean conservation organization. Who gets to say that? Okay. Yes, you are accomplishing things, Danny. Stop using 12-year-olds as a metric for whether you've succeeded. So it's called Big Blue and you. So tell us about that.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I received my Bachelor of Science degree in marine biology back in 08 at the University of Miami. And that was my dream all throughout high school was to study marine science. And then after undergrad, I realized, hey, like, there's a gap. There's a gap in information between the science community, specifically ocean science community and the general public. I grew up in Miami, and so I was constantly at the beach in the ocean. I was certified as a scuba diver at 17. And I just knew that I wanted to spend as much time as possible in the ocean. But I also wanted people around me, my family, my community, to truly fall in love with the ocean like I fell in love with the ocean because it's such an important, critical place for all humans on Earth.

• 4:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But Danny, is it really true that with scuba diving, all of the instructions that you have to follow so that you don't die, rather than that you have fun? Is that true?

• 4:26Speaker 02

  Oh, it's semi-true, yes. It is a dangerous activity and you can like...

• 4:33Speaker 02

  No, it's very true. You need to-

• 4:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Also, we shouldn't be surprised that, as a resident of Miami, people there have a first, you know, a front row seat in the behavior of the ocean.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right? I mean, not only with hurricanes, but you look at a map of the future sea level rise, and Florida's gone.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's just gone.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Gone, underwater.

• 4:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So is that part of the baptism that you experienced growing up?

• 4:59Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, excuse the term.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  The baptism.

• 5:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah. Baptism is water, it doesn't involve water.

• 5:05Chuck Nice?

  As we talk about the submersion of all of Florida, underwater.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 5:11Chuck Nice?

  Tell us about your baptism.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Well, you know, to be honest, when I was younger in high school, I didn't know as much as I know, as we know now about climate change and the impacts of that. And so, but I knew that things were not quite right. I looked at different areas like mangroves, the seagrass beds, places where I loved to explore as a kid, and I saw them changing before my eyes. Also, beach erosion happening around and different beaches that I love to visit. So it became evident pretty quickly that I was like, okay, we've got some issues here, and we need to start spreading the word about what's going on out there. Because with the ocean, it's out of mind and out of sight for so many people. Even people who live right there on the beach, and they don't recognize that under those waves, there's a whole other universe. I think of it as a universe, it's inner space that we still have so much-

• 5:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Be careful how you use that word on this show.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  I like that term, whatever.

• 6:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You need permission to use that word and that way. Could you tell us, this is something I learned, I was like a full grown adult. I said, what, is that what they're called? These trees that grow at the intersection of land and waterways?

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Mangroves.

• 6:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They're called mangroves?

• 6:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Why? What does that even mean?

• 6:19Chuck Nice?

  And why so sexist?

• 6:21Speaker 02

  You know, that's a great question. I've never even thought about that. But I have no idea why they gained the name mangroves. But all I know is that they play an essential role in places like Florida and across the entire world, around the tropical areas and regions, because they serve as a buffer. So whenever hurricanes come in, it's protecting the land. It's also a nursery ground for so many different marine species, including sharks and reef fishes. And it's where the babies grow up and they're able to swim out to the reef after they've grown up. And so, we need it desperately. And a lot of times, we see in developed coastal areas where people want to build huge condos and hotels. We're seeing that

• 6:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They've got to cut down the mangroves.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  They'll cut down the mangroves. Yeah, because it's blocking the beach. In fact, Miami Beach, the beach that I grew up going to, is not a real natural beach. It's actually filled in with sand every eight years and re-nourished. And it was formerly in the 19, early 1900s, it was a mangrove forest along the coast. But it was removed to create the beach.

• 7:19Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 7:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so Chuck, I think mangrove should be a new haircut at the barbershop.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Mangrove.

• 7:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mangrove going here.

• 7:27Chuck Nice?

  That's a man groom.

• 7:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A man groom. You groom me with the mangrove. You also, you also have a lifestyle brand. Who does this? You have a lifestyle brand called The Mocha Mermaid? So what's up with that?

• 7:39Chuck Nice?

  What?

• 7:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know, right?

• 7:41Chuck Nice?

  Wait, you're a marine biologist and a black mermaid?

• 7:45Speaker 02

  That's me. That's me in a nutshell, yep.

• 7:49Chuck Nice?

  Yo, that is dope.

• 7:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's totally dope.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you. I love it. Well, I've always been fascinated by the idea of being half fish or half marine mammal and half human. And, you know, as a kid-

• 8:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's called mentally disturbed.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  No, I don't think it is. I don't think it is. I, the reason is that I have always wanted to be able to spend as much time as possible underwater. And being a mermaid or looking into that mythology, that's, that's been seen throughout history, human history. Every culture around the world has had some type of ocean or water goddess, deity, whatever, in their mythology. And I think there's something to that. I love the story behind it. It began in Africa with like Mamiwata and different ideas in the religious practices that talked about these half-water beings. Anyway, long story short, I like the idea of being someone who's connected to the ocean, who's constantly in the water. And I wanted to create a space for community building and to find other people that look like me, that have melanated skin, who also love the ocean,

• 8:46Speaker 02

  because we've been so underrepresented in this space throughout history. And, and now it's time, I think, for us to reconnect ourselves to water. Because I believe that water is a healing element. It's something that, you know, whenever I get in the water, I immediately feel at peace, at rest, and I feel rejuvenated afterward. And I want other people to experience that, especially people of color.

• 9:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. Let's get back to the subject of why we have her on the show. And that's to talk about science pioneers. Because you've written a book on science pioneers and you told us offline that you began this during COVID and it got published just a few months ago at the end of 2021. So I'm glad you did something productive during COVID, which is more than most people can say. Okay.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh.

• 9:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Instead of just binging on Rick and Morty, you actually wrote something.

• 9:35Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 9:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So this is great.

• 9:35Chuck Nice?

  Now, but did you make sourdough? I mean, because if you didn't.

• 9:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That was another one. That was another one.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  I'm not a baker. I really don't bake that much, so no.

• 9:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So who do you want to talk about first that you've written about?

• 9:47Speaker 02

  Well, I'd like to start with Vera Rubin.

• 9:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, I know Vera Rubin. I mean, she passed, but yeah, that's my field. Bring her on. Yes.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Astronomy. Yes. She's amazing. She was born in 1928 and, you know, she did some pretty incredible things. She helps prove the existence of dark matter. She also used calculations to show that galaxies contain 10 times more dark matter than ordinary matter. And, you know, it's really considered one of the biggest and most important discoveries in astronomy.

• 10:16Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 10:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All in, all in. So Danny, if I could add that the implications of her discovery is that everything you see and know and love in a galaxy, the stars, the gas clouds, even the black holes and planets and moons and comets, all of that is froth on an ocean. Maybe you'll like this analogy, Danny.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  I think I will.

• 10:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You said universe before. I'm going to use ocean now, may I?

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Sure, of course.

• 10:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If if actual matter is a small fraction of the total gravity in a galaxy, then everything we know and love is just froth on a wave that we cannot see.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  That's a beautiful analogy.

• 10:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We can detect it gravitationally, but we don't know what's causing it. So it's really dark gravity. And so that discovery lives with us to this day and it remains an unsolved mystery and she was in the middle of it. So I heard tell that because she was sort of, you know, born in 1928 and in a scientific field, certainly dominated by men, to get access to telescopes requires.

• 11:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, we have to apply and then they have to sort of, someone in charge has to allow it. And you have stories about her trying to just use the same damn telescope everybody else was using. But so, tell us about that.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  Sure. Well, in 1965, she joined the Carnegie Institution for Science. And that was the very first time that a woman was allowed to use the Hale Telescope at the Palomar Observatory. And this was a major step because before that, women weren't allowed to do that. She, you know, she went.

• 11:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But that's the biggest telescope in the world at the time.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 11:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How dare her want to use the biggest telescope in the world? So she know her place?

• 12:03Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, tell me about it.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Well.

• 12:05Chuck Nice?

  I hope she said, uh, you know, uh, clearly you guys are overcompensating for something. With this giant telescope.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 12:14Chuck Nice?

  Okay, go ahead.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  I feel that.

• 12:15Chuck Nice?

  Go for it.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  I feel that. Well, she had to work really hard to get to that point. Honestly, her career before even getting to that position, um, was a, was a journey. At first, you know, she wanted to do her degree in astronomy, her Bachelor of Science degree. Most schools wouldn't accept her. Finally, she got into an all-girls school, Vassar College. And she graduated, she was the only one from her class who graduated with a degree in astronomy. And then she went to Cornell. And then most, again, most other universities wouldn't accept her into their program because she was a woman. And then finally Cornell let her, you know, join the crew. And then at age 23, she started pursuing her PhD. And she even had her first child while pursuing her PhD.

• 12:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, that's badass right there, you know?

• 12:54Speaker 02

  So badass, right?

• 12:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They, they pop out a kid while I'm discovering the universe.

• 12:59Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, try that Einstein, try that.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Exactly. And in fact, she ended up having four children successfully, you know, completing her PhD and all this research and this, all these discoveries happening within her career alongside her husband. You know, and they, they just lived an amazing life. And it turns out that all four of her children ended up pursuing PhDs in STEM fields as well.

• 13:19Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 13:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so what's this about bathrooms at the observatory? I heard, I heard rumors about this, but you got the untold story. What, what is that?

• 13:27Speaker 02

  So the story about the bathroom issue with Vera was that there were no female bathrooms in the observatory. So what she ended up doing was taking a piece of paper and placed it right over the men's, uh, you know, symbol and made her own bathroom. And that I think was very significant in just the symbolism of it where she made her place. She paved her own way and made sure that she had what she needed to pursue her dreams.

• 13:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow. So let me, let me ask you something. So. To get, for her to get to where she was required some kind of tenacity, alright? It's not putting up with status quo, but not, not being bitter about it necessarily. She just said, "I'm doing this. Try to stop me," right?

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 14:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I worry that sometimes people today, if it's a force operating against them, and then they just kind of lose, they lose it, right? And then, and then they recede, rather than continue to push to change the world. Because it is not easy to change the world. There's always somebody who wants to prevent it. So, this seems like a character trait that was very important for her to succeed.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Definitely. Tenacity is definitely the word that I would use to describe Vera, because she made a way when there was no way, and figured out other alternatives for her to get to where she wanted to go. And I just love that about her. And again, she did it while raising a family, while doing everything that, you know, "women," quote unquote, are traditionally known to do, while being a badass astronomer.

• 14:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. And in my field, we, you know, we recognize, I mean, we do recognize discoveries, basically, you know, no matter who it is. And there's some lapses that occasionally need correction, of course, but, I mean, today Vera Rubin has a telescope named after her.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Did you get to put that in? Because that happened only recently.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  No.

• 15:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Did that get it into your book?

• 15:17Speaker 02

  It didn't make it in the book, but I did mention.

• 15:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh my god, because it just happened.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  It just happened. I wish.

• 15:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Like an addendum. Yeah, so, so the current most powerful telescope in the world is named the Vera Rubin Telescope. And it's this humongous telescope. It has the largest digital camera ever built, okay? It's the size of a human being, like the detector surface.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 15:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Alright. And you just walk into this camera, and it's designed to take.

• 15:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Snapshots of the sky continually, which you can then stitch together and basically make a movie of the night sky. And the value of this is just think about it, just think about this. What have we been doing the whole, you know, ever since we've had telescopes? Let's get one image in this one moment that I happen to be looking. But suppose something happens an hour after you shut off the telescope? Or you're in the bathroom, or suppose something happened? Do you miss that? Or suppose something happens only in 24-hour increments? And so you see it and you think it's natural, but it's only doing something for you in this 24-hour increment, and you're missing all the rest of the time. You can be biased by how the data has been obtained.

• 16:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So this telescope is, it's called the Large Synoptic Survey Telescope. And that was too many syllables. I'm glad we renamed it, no matter who we renamed it to, but got to be renamed for Vera Rubin.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 16:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And it's the Rubin Telescope. And she's, and when you're the name of a famous telescope, every discovery that comes out of it, your name is attached to it.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  And then goes on to it.

• 16:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Well deserved.

• 16:50Chuck Nice?

  That's a, that's a fitting legacy, that's for sure.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 16:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  Especially because she never received a Nobel Prize, even though many of her colleagues did throughout her career. Um, yeah, it's wild.

• 17:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Exactly. You mentioned it, that she discovered dark matter in galaxies.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Today, that would have clearly won a Nobel Prize. Um, but was sort of overlooked at the time by the Nobel Committee. And there are other Nobel Prizes that had gone to astronomers in the day.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Um, one of them went to the discovery of pulsars to the man in charge of a project who didn't actually make the discovery. A woman did. Her name is Jocelyn Bell.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 17:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Jocelyn Bell is another one of these people who, who doesn't get the...

• 17:30Chuck Nice?

  Now you gotta, you gotta make another book and put her in.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Yep. I think we should do another one, part two.

• 17:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Danny, what are you doing on this show? Get the hell back to work.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. I have so much respect for authors after writing my first book. It's such an undertaking. Yes.

• 17:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so, so that Nobel Prize for the discovery of pulsars was for discovery in the late 1960s. Uh, her discovery of dark matter was in the early 1970s. It was around the same time. But dark matter is still the longest unsolved problem in the universe.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 17:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And we still don't know what's doing it. And she was in the middle of it.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  And we can thank Vera for helping us pave the way. Love it.

• 18:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, yes. That's fantastic. All right, all right. So you did good by including her in your book. When we come back, can you tell us more people in your book?

• 18:16Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 18:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I assume they're not all from astrophysics. So I want to learn about other topics, too.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, all over.

• 18:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Excellent. We've got Danni Washington, who's recently written about pioneers in science. This is on StarTalk. We'll learn more about it in the next segment.

• 18:39Speaker 03

  Hi, I'm Chris Cohen from Hallworth, New Jersey, and I support StarTalk on Patreon. Please enjoy this episode of StarTalk Radio with your and my favorite personal astrophysicist, Neil deGrasse Tyson.

• 19:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back, StarTalk. We're talking about scientific pioneers over the last century. And I got someone who wrote a book on them, Danni Washington.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 19:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And Dani, you did this. I mean, your background is in marine science, but you took on this project because you felt that there were some scientists who needed some attention, and somebody's got to do it.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 19:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so we just came off of a segment talking about a pioneer in my field, Vera Rubin. But you also, tell me some more. You have someone from the field of medicine?

• 19:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, who do you have there?

• 19:33Speaker 02

  Alice Ball. Alice Ball is a chemist. She was born in 1892, and she actually developed the first cure for leprosy, or also known as Hansen's disease, back at the age of 23 years old.

• 19:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, that's great, but if she's born in 1897 and discovered a cure for leprosy, that's too late for everybody in the Bible.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, way too late. Way, way too late.

• 19:55Chuck Nice?

  They had Jesus.

• 19:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, they had Jesus.

• 19:58Chuck Nice?

  It's okay.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 19:59Chuck Nice?

  They had Jesus.

• 20:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, it's true.

• 20:01Chuck Nice?

  Jesus was basically the whole entire health insurance policy.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yup.

• 20:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  For everybody.

• 20:07Chuck Nice?

  Of the entire biblical period. You know what I mean? It's just like, oh my God, my skin is falling off. Put some Jesus on that. Okay. Ah, my leg, I can't walk. I can't walk. Put some Jesus on that. Okay.

• 20:24Chuck Nice?

  Oh God, I can't see. Oh, come on, look. There you go, put some Jesus on that. Put some Jesus on that. We good now, you good? You good? You good, you can see? You can walk, you can see, alright?

• 20:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Alright, so she was born 1892?

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, 1892 in Washington State.

• 20:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And she did it when she was 23.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Man, that's badass right there.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  So badass.

• 20:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So tell me about leprosy. I mean, I only, you know, it sounds like a, like, like we were saying, like a biblical disease. But what, what actually happens? Does anyone get it anymore?

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Well, people do get it, but they're, they're using more modern technology to help cure it. Um, so they don't use what Alice Ball originally created. They have new pharmaceutical products that are helping. But her initial discovery of this specialized treatment really helped those suffering, uh, not to have to be put away into like a camp and like taken away from society. Now they can actually, they were able to function. And what I loved about is that, you know, she did it through her own curiosity and figured out, after researching kava root, she was at the University of Hawaii at the time. She was playing with the kava root and then it moved on to this thing, a tree called the chalmugra tree, which is in Hawaii. And then she distilled it down and then figured out if I inject this into the skin of someone suffering from leprosy, it'll actually heal the sores that end up coming up.

• 21:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, wait, wait, stop, stop, stop. Who, who does this? Exactly. There's a tree. Let me extract this root, boil it down. Do you want to be a test subject? How does she, where does the thinking come from? And who lets you do that? And who lets you do that? You know? Well, like my arm's falling off, you can inject anything into me. My arm's gonna fall off, okay? You know what, you got a point there. There you go.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 22:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so they put lepers in, for a long while, they put lepers in leopard colonies, which sounds really...

• 22:10Speaker 02

  It's depressing.

• 22:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't know what else you do in the day, but still.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, you don't, you don't want to have to do that going forward.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  No, and, and the island of Molokai in Hawaii is where, there was a specific peninsula where this colony existed. And it was sad because people would be taken away from their families and just living, you know, day to day. And it was just an awful existence. And so her pursuing this cure was world changing because so many people around the world suffered from this contagious bacterial disease.

• 22:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. Was she finally recognized for this work?

• 22:38Speaker 02

  Well, you know what ended up happening was she passed away at the age of 24 tragically.

• 22:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What?

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Oh my goodness!

• 22:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What? She just, she just discovered the damn thing?

• 22:47Chuck Nice?

  And I'm gonna tell you, if you tell me she died of leprosy, I'm...

• 22:50Speaker 02

  No, thank goodness.

• 22:51Chuck Nice?

  Oh, thank God, thank God.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 22:54Chuck Nice?

  Go ahead.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  She apparently accidentally inhaled chlorine gas in the lab. So it was a lab accident that ended up happening. And her advisor had to fight another one of his colleagues who published a paper claiming that her cure was his method, the Dean method. And it wasn't until later in the 20th century that a librarian at the University of Hawaii saw that there was one chalmugre tree on the campus. And she did some research, a little digging, figured out that Alice was the one who did all of this. And then finally, many years later, she got some recognition. The Lieutenant Governor of Hawaii declared February 29th Alice Ball Day in 2000.

• 23:32Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 23:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cool.

• 23:33Chuck Nice?

  Pretty well.

• 23:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cool. So, wait, wait. So is that, so that can't be every year then?

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Oh, oh yeah, because it's a leap year.

• 23:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not every year has a February 29th.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Which is kind of random. Yeah, I don't know why they would choose that day. I don't know if it was her...

• 23:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, that's so, that's so, somebody should have checked out the calendar on that one, because I would have, yeah, yeah. Okay, so every four years we'll celebrate?

• 23:52Speaker 02

  We'll celebrate Alice.

• 23:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Alice.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 23:55Chuck Nice?

  Alice is like the World Cup of scientists. That's cool.

• 23:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, every four years.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  There we go.

• 24:00Chuck Nice?

  It might make it even more special.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  True that.

• 24:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Danny, I've got a geeky calendar thing, because I, that's one of my side avocations is thinking about calendars and whose calendar is accurate and who's. So, in the year 2100, that would normally be a leap year, but in the current calendar rules, it's not.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  Really?

• 24:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, yeah, we'll not have a February 29th. So we'll go eight years without getting to celebrate her contribution. So, so we should just go back to Lieutenant Governor of Hawaii and...

• 24:32Speaker 02

  I agree. Change the day, make it...

• 24:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, if you go there, tell them to call me.

• 24:37Chuck Nice?

  Whatever happened to the Dean character? Who sounds like such a dick?

• 24:42Speaker 02

  I don't know. I didn't do much research about him. One of the other doctors who stole her cure. Claimed that it was his discovery and it really was not.

• 24:53Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, it really was not. Okay, well, that's all we need to know.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Danny, who else do you have?

• 24:59Speaker 02

  Well, another scientist that I absolutely adore. She's a botanist born in India named Janaki Amal. So she's known as India's finest plant scientist and she pioneered in the field of cytogenetics. And she even has two plants named after her.

• 25:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, what is cytogenetics? Just go past that word and not explain it. Act like we all know what the hell you're talking about.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  Listen, listen.

• 25:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cytogenetics, what is that?

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Cytogenetics. Well, you hear the word genetics in there, so it has to do with the study of chromosomes. But it also has to do with the role of chromosomes in heredity and things and traits that are passed down from different living organisms. So in her case, she was studying heredity within plants, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. And she even developed a new strain, a new type of sugarcane in India that allowed more people, you know, to create more sugar products.

• 25:42Chuck Nice?

  And when was she doing this now?

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Lord, this is back in, she was born in 1897, so it was early 1900s. Yes.

• 25:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So she's a 20th century scientist. Okay.

• 25:50Chuck Nice?

  That's, that's pretty, I'll say, aggressive. Because, you know, right now, it's a shame, if she were alive today, she would have like the benefit of these supercomputers that we use now to map these things. She would probably be on to some super cool discoveries when you think about it.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  She would be a rock star, like with all the tech we have now.

• 26:14Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's incredible what she did with what she had. And, you know, she grew up in India, she had 19 siblings.

• 26:21Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 26:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, let me ask, what's this I heard that she stopped a dam? I don't even know what that means, but I heard this said of her.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  Well, one of the most notable things she did in her career was she helped stop a hydroelectric dam in the Kunti Puzza River, which is in her region where she grew up. Because they were going to flood this area that was home to over 1,000 endemic plants that were found nowhere else in the world. And so she demonstrated her science and her activism.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Just to serve environmental conservation, which is so important and something that we're still dealing with to this day, you know, trying to protect areas of this planet that are crucial for our health and stability in the future.

• 26:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Or to even think that way, because any, most people, yeah, dam will bring electricity. You know, you're not even thinking about the biodiversity of what you will end up flooding to make that happen. So to, for her to be on that page, that's, that's very, that's brave and early.

• 27:11Chuck Nice?

  But at least we'll have electricity that will allow us to see how badly we effed up.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  There he goes.

• 27:19Chuck Nice?

  We can turn the light on and see how badly we screwed things up. They're not great.

• 27:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Take a look at that, son. So. Chuck, that reminds me of a Gary Larson comic where there's this, there's this man and his son, and they just saw down this big, huge tree, and the tree, and you see the stump of the tree, and it says, "Look, son," it says something like, "This tree ring was when it survived a hurricane, and this other one was when it survived."

• 27:47Chuck Nice?

  Oh, that's hilarious.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  A wildfire.

• 27:50Chuck Nice?

  That's great.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To all the things.

• 27:53Chuck Nice?

  It survived.

• 27:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That it survived.

• 27:55Chuck Nice?

  And that's really.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  Yup. And then you just cut it down.

• 27:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You just cut it down.

• 27:59Chuck Nice?

  I dig it.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Makes no sense.

• 28:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Danny, I want on my business card to say, "I've stopped a dam." That's just.

• 28:05Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Right? A whole dam.

• 28:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A whole dam.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  She, she spoke up for nature when nature didn't have a voice in our human experience, right? And what I love about her is also she talked about how like the biosphere in a lot of ways will go on with or without us, and I think that's something that's important for all of us to recognize. Maybe the environment will look different after we've altered it with our own selfish ways, but it's gonna go on. Like, we're just gonna wipe ourselves out if we continue on this path of destruction. Uh, but nature will come back.

• 28:34Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, one day you'll see meerkats living in our condos.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  Yup.

• 28:37Chuck Nice?

  All popping their heads out the windows.

• 28:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, you got meerkat, of all the animals, meerkats, okay?

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a random choice.

• 28:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's somebody seeing The Lion King too many times, right there.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Have you ever watched Meerkat Manor? That's like an awesome show. It's very dramatic.

• 28:54Chuck Nice?

  Now I'm gonna check it out because if you say check it out, I should check it out.

• 28:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Meerkats, if they're anything, they're curious, right? Hey, what's that? Did you see that? Oh, my gosh, what's that?

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Uh huh, like, hey, hey, hey, hey.

• 29:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what is phyto-geography? I see that in my notes here.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Well, it's really just a mapping of where plants are located. And so she also did that with that area and helped establish the Silent Valley National Park in Kerala, India, in that same area. So the place where they were gonna flood, she made it into, helped make it into a national park, which is incredible.

• 29:23Chuck Nice?

  So, let me just ask this about this. Well, Neil, you did it on Cosmos, but for either one of you, there was this episode that you talked about this kind of Noah's Ark for seeds, where they take all the seeds from all over the world and put them someplace where they'd be safe, if I'm not mistaken.

• 29:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, Noah's Ark is. No.

• 29:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I wanted live animals, not just seeds.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:49Chuck Nice?

  Right, so it's kind of a broken ass.

• 29:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, Denny, what is in Norway?

• 29:54Speaker 02

  So there's a seed bank that exists there where there are hundreds of thousands of seeds that we currently have on the planet being stored in case of an apocalypse. So that's basically if an asteroid hits, do we have something to work with? And can we kind of replant the future?

• 30:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If it hits someplace other than Norway?

• 30:12Speaker 02

  Other than Norway, correct. That part is very important.

• 30:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It is. It's like the library in Alexandria. Let's put all the books in one library where they're safe. The library burns down, now you got nothing.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 30:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So maybe we need two seed banks at antipodal sides of the Earth.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  That would make sense. I like that idea.

• 30:28Chuck Nice?

  As long as you keep them away from Vladimir Putin, we're gonna be fine.

• 30:33Chuck Nice?

  Totally gonna be fine.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  Unless we had to just put it there, or put it next to them, or put it in Russia so that we know for sure nothing would happen. I don't know.

• 30:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so you have the seeds, but you need, so is a seed all you need to just restart?

• 30:48Speaker 02

  No. There is so much more. We live in this beautiful biosphere that has so many different moving parts. And I mean, just with plants alone, especially crop plants that we use for food, we need bees, we need pollinators, butterflies, to help spread the pollen and actually continue the cycle. So we've got a lot of work to do and it can't just depend merely on the seeds.

• 31:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I saw an episode of Black Mirror where they had a bee drone.

• 31:11Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 31:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That...

• 31:13Speaker 02

  I didn't see that episode.

• 31:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:15Chuck Nice?

  Brilliant.

• 31:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And because if the show is called is Black Mirror, things don't end well. But the idea was great. You're running out of bees, just invent a new kind of bee drone. And then there you have it.

• 31:29Chuck Nice?

  By the way, there's a there's a sequel coming out where every show ends happily. It's called White Privilege Mirror.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 31:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Instead of Black Mirror.

• 31:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Here's your seat at the table, sir.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  There you go. Everything turns out right for you.

• 31:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Everything's got to be about being black with Chuck.

• 31:49Chuck Nice?

  Come on. It's only because it's only because I live in America. That's all.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 31:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, we're gonna take a break, but we come back more from Danni Washington. We learn all more about her and who she's written about in her book on scientific pioneers on StarTalk.

• 32:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back, StarTalk. We've got a really fun episode going here with Danni Washington, who's an ocean. Dani, what shall we call you if we gave you a title?

• 32:33Speaker 02

  If you give me a title?

• 32:34Chuck Nice?

  Marine biologist?

• 32:35Speaker 02

  I have my marine biology degree, but I'm not a practical researcher.

• 32:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Gotcha. And you also have a lifestyle moniker, the Mocha Mermaid.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 32:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. To put both of those on your business card, that's all you need right there.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And how do we find you on social media? What are your what are your biggest platforms there?

• 32:56Speaker 02

  Oh, my personal platforms, you can find me at Danni Washington on all Instagram, Twitter, Facebook.

• 33:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And Dani with an I, yes, Danni Washington.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  Thank you for clarifying. Yep, Dani with an I, two N's, and Washington spelled like the state.

• 33:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, not two N's in Washington, but two N's in Dani.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  Two N's in Dani, exactly.

• 33:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, okay.

• 33:12Chuck Nice?

  So Danni Washington would be even better. Washington.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Washington.

• 33:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So this is for. And that is your handle for which platforms?

• 33:22Speaker 02

  All platforms. So you can find me there. You can also follow my organization, Big Blue in You. It's a nonprofit out of Miami where I'm from. And we teach young people about the ocean through art and science combined. And we love it. It's called, it's Big Blue in You on all platforms as well.

• 33:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, wait. And your, and your podcast, which also reaches for younger audiences. You're trying to, you're, I know what it is.

• 33:44Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I figured this out.

• 33:46Speaker 02

  What'd you figure out?

• 33:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  She's gonna be queen of the universe. Because she's training this whole next generation of people.

• 33:52Chuck Nice?

  That's how you do it.

• 33:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then, and then they will just follow her every command.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then they take over the world and they, and they get, and they render, they get rid of us.

• 34:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Admit it here on StarTalk, Danny.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  There it is.

• 34:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is your plan. Your master plan.

• 34:05Chuck Nice?

  We found out your world domination plan, Danny. We caught you. We caught you. We know what it is, man.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  Listen, I gave up on adults a long time ago. Okay, kids are at, they know what's up.

• 34:16Chuck Nice?

  I know this much, you've inspired me. You are the Mocha Mermaid. I am going to now be the Coco Comedian.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Coco Comedian.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  You're hilarious.

• 34:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so we got time for like one more person? Is there someone else who's like special to you?

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh.

• 34:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That you profiled in this book?

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Yes. My favorite, absolute favorite.

• 34:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And Chuck, I have to explain to Chuck, Chuck, when I say she profiled it, it's not a cop thing.

• 34:45Chuck Nice?

  You know that's where I was going, Neil.

• 34:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know, that's what I'm saying. I just have to clear you. I think I had preempted Chuck's. Okay, so profiled in your book.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Who else you have?

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Dr. Sylvia Earle, who is my role model and mentor and someone that I respect. She wrote.

• 35:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know me some Sylvia Earle. She's, she's a friend of StarTalk. She's been on a couple of times. But many years ago, how's she doing? Tell me about her.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  She's wonderful.

• 35:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Tell me what I don't know about her. Just keep going. Bring it, bring it on.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I met her when I was 17 years old in Florida. I was at this National Geographic sleepover event at a museum, so random. But she happened to come because she's a resident explorer. And that was the first time we interacted in person.

• 35:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, just to be clear, Nat Geo has a title called Resident Explorer.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  Correct. Yes.

• 35:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that's a great title to have. So keep going.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  It really is. I mean, that was kind of like the cherry on top of her career because she did so much in her, you know, younger years as well as now. I mean, she travels more than 200 days out of the year to give talks and film a Netflix show. Like, she's done all these different things. Um, but she was born in 1935 in Jersey, and then she moved to Florida when she was 12 with her family, and that's where her love for the ocean began. She's used to explore the coast and like dig through seaweed on the beach. We call it a rack line and look for little invertebrates and things that were living in the seaweed. Would you do that, Chuck? Would you have joined Sylvia doing that?

• 36:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't like sand, Danny.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  No sand? Oh, no.

• 36:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, Chuck is Chuck is still in New Jersey at this moment. I am in New Jersey.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  Oh, now.

• 36:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But Chuck, imagine what kind of a great scientist you could have been had you moved from New Jersey.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  If only, if only you had left.

• 36:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If only, if only. Again, that reminds me of the Gary Larson comic where Jimmy Hendrix is like ready to walk into an accordion store. And it's just, and the store happens to be closed, but the guitar store next door is open. So then he goes into the guitar store. And it's titled Disaster Averted. Pretty funny. Okay, so I didn't know. So she moved to Florida and got ocean influence just the way you were. This is a fascinating commonality. So tell me more.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  So she continued that to follow that passion. And then she ended up going to Duke University for her masters in phycology, where she studied algae. She collected over 20,000 algae samples, which I believe she donated.

• 37:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's called phycology?

• 37:06Speaker 02

  No, phy- phycology, like physics, phycology.

• 37:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's the first I've ever heard that word. P-H-Y-C-O-L-O-G-Y?

• 37:15Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 37:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is that perphylum or something? Like, what? Phyto?

• 37:19Speaker 02

  Phyto. Yeah, I believe it's perphyto, but it's the study of algae and seaweeds in the ocean.

• 37:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Algae, okay.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  So awesome.

• 37:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And algeology doesn't run off the tongue, so you got it.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  No, not quite.

• 37:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Algeology. Okay, go on. Sorry I interrupted.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  No worries. So, yeah, she she continued with that path. I think she donated her samples, I believe, to the Smithsonian, um, to the Museum of Natural History, uh, that should be still there today. And then she became the first woman appointed as the chief scientist at NOAA, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the government agency who handles all things ocean and atmosphere.

• 37:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow, indeed.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Indeed.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, so she's a badass.

• 37:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So she spends time, is she an underwater person or above water taking samples?

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Well, we know her as her deepness. That's literally her title because she's logged thousands of hours underwater. In the 1960s, she led a team of all women aquanauts living underwater for two weeks, and that was the first time that ever happened. And it was just them underwater living for 14 days, doing research, not coming up to the surface. It was all self-contained. And she also holds the world record for the deepest untethered dive in history.

• 38:31Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 38:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So if you're not tethered, how do you like come back up?

• 38:36Speaker 02

  Well, she was in this special dive suit called a gym suit, and it was all, again, self-contained, and she operated herself.

• 38:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I have a gym suit. I could do that.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  You could do that too? Not G Y M.

• 38:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I have a gym suit.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  J I M.

• 38:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  J I M, sorry.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. And so she womaned it. I'm not going to say manned it, but she womaned it herself and went down 1,200 feet. To be more specific, 1,250 feet on her own.

• 39:04Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 39:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Jeez.

• 39:05Speaker 02

  In the Pacific Ocean.

• 39:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, by the way, NASA has addressed this issue of is it a manned crew? So they just, they just call it a crude vehicle.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Crude, okay.

• 39:15Chuck Nice?

  Crude vehicle.

• 39:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So she crewed a vessel or an outfit down to the... Yeah, so that's how NASA handles that. So you don't have to say womaned it.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  There we go. She crewed it.

• 39:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If you want to be gender neutral, sure.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  Sure. That's a good idea. Yeah. But she's done so many incredible things in her life, you know, so far. And I see her on the road. Before COVID, I was going to a lot of summits and events related to ocean conservation, and she's usually always there. And I just love to hear her speak about her passion. She always speaks from the heart, but then throws in her science. And she's really become an icon in our space, for sure. And I just appreciate all the work that she's done to, you know, not only for women in the space, but for everyone to recognize the importance of the ocean. Now, we realize you like her, but has she accomplished anything?

• 40:04Speaker 02

  She's accomplished so much.

• 40:06Chuck Nice?

  Oh, we know. We know.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  You should check out her Netflix documentary called Mission Blue.

• 40:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cool.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  It's really good.

• 40:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. That's interesting because I think Disney had a ride called Mission Space. So this is using that same concept that you are on a mission. And now the mission is not only discover about the ocean, but do something about it because we are abusing it badly. I mean, so, so tell me about your conservation efforts and how they resonate with Sylvia's. Are you carrying the torch that she first lit in this space?

• 40:37Speaker 02

  Well, I'd like to think that I am contributing to that. I know that there are a lot of other phenomenal female marine scientists out there and conservationists who are doing a lot of work. So we're, we're in it together, you know, but, um, but Sylvia.

• 40:48Chuck Nice?

  How humble of you. Just go ahead and take, take the credit. Just take the credit, Danny. You're killing it. You're killing it. It's okay.

• 40:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You already exposed that she's going to be everybody's overlord very soon.

• 40:58Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 40:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The next generation will come up.

• 41:00Chuck Nice?

  So, so what do you, what do you see as the most pressing issue right now when it comes to the care for our oceans? What, what is, is it, is it microplastics? Is it the warming of the ocean itself, the acidification? Is it?

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Wow. Okay, Chuck.

• 41:14Chuck Nice?

  You know, is it, is it, is it our, you know?

• 41:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  My boy Chuck is just showing off.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  Listen, you already, you took the words out of my mouth.

• 41:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He knows the vocabulary.

• 41:22Chuck Nice?

  No, no, no, I'm, I'm, I'm serious. This is why I never get serious.

• 41:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, we love you, Chuck. Yeah.

• 41:32Chuck Nice?

  What, what do you?

• 41:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How do we prioritize this?

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Well, it's, again, as I mentioned earlier in the episode, I talked about the fact that the ocean is out of sight and out of mind for many, many people around the world. But the ocean provides every other breath, the oxygen that's in every other breath, every second breath comes from the ocean. And it also helps stabilize our climate on this planet. And so what, to answer your question, Chuck, I think the most pressing issue with the ocean is the warming of the ocean and the acidification. So two, really, kind of in tandem. Uh, because, you know, with, without the oceans being in balance and, and stabilizing our climate, like, we're gonna experience some extreme weather, which we already have been, right? We've seen it all over the world. But also, the fact that it's acidifying, where there's too much carbon dioxide going in the ocean, it's messing up the balance, the chemical balance of the ocean, which causes

• 42:17Speaker 02

  things that build their shells underwater, like crabs, shrimp, but also coral reefs. They use the calcium carbonate out of the water to create, literally create their bodies. They can't do that when the water is acidic. And so that's one impact. Um, but we can, we can actually change it, and that's what I love about the ocean so much. It is extremely resilient, and if we give it time and space, it can bounce back in certain ways. It may not look the same as it looked maybe twenty, fifty, a hundred years ago, we see that now, but I think the ocean can come back. And one of the solutions that I really lean on is blue carbon, and looking at how we can establish more marine plants in the water that actually absorb that carbon dioxide. So I'm talking about kelp, I'm talking about mangroves, I'm also talking about seagrass beds.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  These are ecosystems that absorb carbon dioxide out of the water and the atmosphere fifty times more effectively than trees on land. It's crazy.

• 43:10Chuck Nice?

  Wow. So it's, it's the equivalent of, of like doubling forestry efforts, but you're doing it in the, in the ocean itself.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And plus, the ocean is way big, there's a bigger tapestry on which to execute this, right?

• 43:25Chuck Nice?

  Much, much bigger, yeah.

• 43:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that could, so what you're, not to put words in your mouth, but I think what you're saying is, if we cultivated an entire undersea forestry with whatever, I use forestry loosely there, because they do speak of kelp forests, though, don't they?

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, definitely. We call them sea trees.

• 43:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah, exactly. Okay, excellent. So if we develop an entire underwater, uh, plant ecosystem...

• 43:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  As it takes carbon dioxide out of the water, doesn't the ocean in response take carbon dioxide out of the air?

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Yes, and that's what it's been doing for forever, right? That's, that's why.

• 44:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, because it tries to always stay in equilibrium. If there's a little less than one place, it donates it back in. So this can help fix the world that Chuck and I destroyed, that you and your, your future following, after you've rendered the rest of us extinct, can have a world that you.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Exactly, a livable world.

• 44:21Chuck Nice?

  It just dawned on me what Neil just said, which of course is a clear path towards decarbonization, um, and an effective one. But the only motivation that could really accelerate that would be a commercial use for the byproduct. And so do you know of any, is there any kind of seaweed-based or kelp-based kind of product line that we could, and not just for your skin or something, you know, something that has.

• 44:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, I got this. I, I'm, I'm done with kale, you know? I'm ready for the next thing.

• 44:58Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 44:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And maybe it's kelp.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  It's kelp. It is kelp. Yes. It's so extremely nutritious.

• 45:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, I'm just making that up.

• 45:04Chuck Nice?

  Wait, is kelp nutritious?

• 45:06Speaker 02

  It is. Okay, look, look, when we talk about.

• 45:08Chuck Nice?

  Are you saying kelp is the new kale?

• 45:10Speaker 02

  It is the new kale. It needs to be the new kale.

• 45:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, they're just going down the alphabet, you know?

• 45:20Speaker 02

  Yes, it's delicious. And actually, a few years ago, I remember filming a segment on one of the TV shows I hosted called Nature Knows Best, where we were looking at biomimicry. I interviewed a kelp farmer in Connecticut who was formerly a fisherman and was taking things out and now began growing and doing this 3D vertical farming model where he had mussels and clams. And then he grew seaweed at the top. And so the kelp would grow toward the surface. And it only took a small area of the water. And he was, that was his main substance, right? And people in New York City were ordering from him because they were making kelp pasta and all kinds of really cool dishes with kelp. It tastes delicious.

• 45:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is real. So what is the show? Oh, excuse me, one of your shows you hosted. I can't keep up with them, I'm sorry. Which show was that, so we can find it?

• 46:03Speaker 02

  Sure, it's called Exploration: Nature Knows Best. And it was back in, we filmed in 2016 to 2018. And I interviewed tons of different people who were in biomimicry, in the space of biomimicry.

• 46:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And where do we find that?

• 46:16Speaker 02

  You can find it on Amazon Prime. It used to air on Saturday mornings on Fox Networks around the country.

• 46:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's a series.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  It's a series, yeah. There's 27 episodes.

• 46:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, that's great.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, cool. So you're a host of that?

• 46:29Speaker 02

  I am, yes. And I've hosted several different productions.

• 46:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just while we're there, what precisely is biomimicry?

• 46:35Speaker 02

  Biomimicry is a study of how we can take notes from nature and apply them to modern technology and design. And so there are inventors and scientists and engineers who are all doing that right now around the world, where they're looking at nature and looking at all the wonderful answers that have been solved, you know, the problems that have been solved within nature, by nature. Why aren't we taking notes? And why aren't we mimicking what nature is already doing?

• 46:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We did it with flight.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 47:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We did it with flight. So you're saying we're not clever enough to do this on our own? We got, we need tips from nature, who has been at it for four billion years?

• 47:11Speaker 02

  Correct, yes. I think it would be, it's due time that we start paying attention to the world around us, right? What a concept.

• 47:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, excellent, excellent. So, well, I gotta start landing this plane. Let me just ask you some final questions here. This is very cool. And wait a minute, everyone you talked about was a woman.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  What a surprise.

• 47:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's, what's, what's the title of your book?

• 47:35Speaker 02

  The title of my book is Bold Women in Science, and...

• 47:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, that explains it. There you go. You found them in the, you found them in the ether.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, okay.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, cool, cool.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  It's 15 different biographies of women throughout history, including women that are still with us today, including, I'm sure she's your friend, May Jemison is in there. I have her included.

• 47:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, May, yeah, me and May go way back.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah.

• 47:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  May Jemison, a pioneering astronaut.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  Phenomenal.

• 47:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A shuttle-era astronaut.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's a fun book for everyone. It's meant technically for eight to 12-year-olds, but listen, you could sit down and read this in an hour and like enjoy it and learn a little something new about some women who made some phenomenal contributions to science.

• 48:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, every one of us knows an eight to 12-year-old somewhere in our family or a friendship. And so, and that's the age where... Oh my gosh, where they're not weirded out yet from middle school.

• 48:28Speaker 02

  Yup.

• 48:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And... And the hormones haven't kicked in. The hormones aren't interfering. Oh my gosh.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  I wish I had this book when I was a kid, literally. And that's the reason, and the main reason that truly motivated me to write it was because I knew this is something that if I had had this at eight years old, like, ooh, it would be...

• 48:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The world domination would be complete. You might have studied oceanography. World domination would be complete. No, but you already did.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  It would be so complete, it would be complete faster. How about that?

• 48:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Faster, there you go, there you go. Yeah, we would have been having this interview and you would be 18 years old instead of whatever you are today, right?

• 49:00Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 49:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It would have been accelerated progress.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 49:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In the arc of life. Very, very cool. All right, so Danny, thanks for sharing your time and your expertise and your reflections on something that not enough people think about in this world. And we need more of that. And I hope this is not the last time you'll be on StarTalk because this topic comes up all the time. Plus, we've got to have a whole conversation on just ocean conservation.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Unto itself.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  I'm game.

• 49:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right? This one, we focused mostly on your book, but there's so much more out there. And what do we do with our plastic? Yeah.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  That's a big one.

• 49:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We'll hold you entirely accountable for that, okay? For the solutions there.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  Okay, you're holding me accountable. All right, I'll bring some solutions. I got it, listen.

• 49:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  I've got them, I've got them.

• 49:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's cool.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  I work with a lot of great people who do too, so, yup.

• 49:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Excellent, excellent. All right, Danny, great to have you. Chuck, always good to have you on StarTalk. Always a pleasure, always. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist, as always. Keep looking up.