Simon Hill On Optimizing Plant-Based Nutrition For Health, Longevity & Athletic Performance

It’s one thing to go vegan. It’s another thing to go plant-based. But optimizing a plant-based diet for health, longevity and athletic prowess is another thing altogether. So today we dive deep into the finer specifics of fueling for peak well-being and performance. To help set us up for nutritional success, we reconvene with Simon Hill. Whereas our first conversation (RRP 638) was quite broad in scope, today’s nutrition science-intensive presents a more focused discussion on the tactics and practical details of optimizing a plant-predominant diet to conquer your athletic ambitions, live long and thrive. For those new to Simon, he plies his master’s degree in nutrition to help people make better diet and lifestyle choices. Outlets for said counsel include his popular Instagram feed (@plant_proof), the Plant Proof Podcast and blog of the same name. Simon is also the plant-based food contributor to Chris Hemsworth’s fitness app, Centr as well as the proprietor of Eden, hands down the best plant-based restaurant in Sydney, Australia. The culmination of Simon’s obsession with nutritional science is The Proof Is In The Plants,the ultimate evidence-based primer on the positive impact of a plant-based diet on human and planetary health—and an essential must-read for any and all interested in grounded nutrition science. If you enjoyed our initial exchange, you’re in for a treat because this one is even better—packed with actionable takeaways certain to upgrade every facet of your well-being. Today we pick up where we last left off, digging deeper into the latest and best nutrition science to deliver specific and practical advice on a variety of typical concerns while simultaneously course correcting common diet misunderstandings. We discuss the difference between caloric density versus nutritional density and turn our attention upon responsible supplementation, going deep on the role of specific nutrients, including iodine, calcium, iron, selenium, zinc, nitrates, lectins, and more. Of course, no discussion on plant-based nutrition would be complete without a discourse on protein. Today we evaluate its importance, how to meet our needs on plants, and the various hotly debated distinctions between animal and plant protein. Finally, we discuss what the latest scientific research indicates concerning the health implications of plant-based meat products, the best ways to transition to a more plant-forward diet, and specific fueling and supplementation strategies for building strength and athletic performance, among many other interesting topics. To read more, click here. You can also watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I find Simon to be a highly credible authority with a very grounded and balanced perspective on a subject I think we would all agree can be at times quite emotionally charged. I appreciate the rigor he brings to this field, and this one is chock-a-block with important information and very actionable takeaways for anyone looking to level up their plate. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Simon Hill?

  When you broaden the lens, open up the aperture and consider how our food choices affect the planet, and you consider what we're doing to billions and billions of animals, and that none of us would likely swap places with them. When you do that, it does create a compelling case for adopting a diet that is as plant-exclusive as possible. It's not about perfection. This is about adopting this imperfectly, just like my diet is not perfect, it's imperfect. And my message is, let go of the perfection, take some pressure off yourself, remove the self-judgment, and just get started. You know, I have full

• 0:47Simon Hill?

  confidence in everyone that as they get started and start to make these changes, they will begin to feel better themselves, and that is hugely motivating.

• 1:08Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Today, back for a second nutrition science intensive, is Simon Hill. Simon holds a master's degree in nutrition science. He hosts the popular Plant-Proof Podcast. He's the plant-based food contributor to Chris Hemsworth's fitness app, Centr. He owns the best plant-based restaurant in Sydney, Australia, Eden, which is a must if you find yourself in Bondi Beach. And he is the author of The Proof Is In The Plants, which is an essential evidence-based primer on the positive impact of a plant-based

• 1:48Rich Roll?

  diet on human and planetary health. Our first conversation, RRP 638, from early November 2021, was a hit with the audience, and I think this conversation, the details of which I'll get into in a moment, is even better. But first.

• 2:15Rich Roll?

  Okay, Simon Hill. So today, we pick up where we left off in our last episode, our first episode, digging deeper into very specific, practical, and actionable aspects of nutrition, particularly plant-forward nutrition, based upon the latest and best science, including caloric density versus nutritional density. We cover responsible supplementation and go deep on an array of specific nutrients, including iodine, calcium, iron, selenium, zinc, nitrates, and lectins. Of course, no plant-based nutrition science

• 2:54Rich Roll?

  conversation would be complete without covering protein, specifically the differences between plant and animal protein. We also discuss what the latest science says about the health implications of plant-based meat products. We talk about the best ways to transition to a more plant-forward diet. We also cover specific fueling and supplementation strategies for building strength and athletic performance, as well as many other interesting topics. I personally find Simon to be a highly credible authority with a really grounded and balanced perspective on a subject I think we can all agree can be at times quite emotionally

• 3:36Rich Roll?

  charged. And I just appreciate the rigor that he brings to this field. And this one is chock-a-block with not only important information, but again, as I said earlier, very actionable takeaways for anybody looking to level up their plate. Finally, Simon has also provided a robust index of all the studies that he references in this conversation, with all kinds of other graphs and infographics and very interesting stuff that you can dive deep into, hyperlinks of which you can find in the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. So, put on your propeller hat, because here we go. This is me and Simon Hill.

• 4:23Rich Roll?

  Simon, good to see you. Happy to have you back in on the tail end of your epic United States extended stay. I know you're headed back to Australia soon, so we had to get you back in here before you skedaddle for round two. How are you feeling today?

• 4:39Simon Hill?

  Very good. Thank you for having me. I feel like I'm almost a resident here now.

• 4:44Rich Roll?

  I know. You've been here. How long have you been here at this point?

• 4:47Simon Hill?

  What was meant to be four weeks has turned into three months.

• 4:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 4:52Simon Hill?

  So it's been fun, though. You know, the States is essentially my second home, so it's been fun hanging out and catching up with you and getting out to the desert and spending time with Doug.

• 5:04Rich Roll?

  I know. You went out there twice, right?

• 5:06Simon Hill?

  Twice, yeah. Out near Joshua Tree, which is a fantastic area, and we had a lot of fun exploring the park there and soaking in the hot springs.

• 5:20Rich Roll?

  In his tubs.

• 5:21Simon Hill?

  Yeah.

• 5:21Rich Roll?

  Eating lots of sprouts.

• 5:23Simon Hill?

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:24Rich Roll?

  I just had Mike Posner in here recently, and he went out there as well and came back a complete sprouting fanatic, and now all of his social media is monopolized by sprouting.

• 5:35Simon Hill?

  It's a spell. If you spend time with Doug, you will end up sprouting, and your kitchen will turn into a sprout farm.

• 5:42Rich Roll?

  I know. Well, I couldn't let you go back home without getting you back in here. The initial episode that we did together was super popular. People really dug it. And we talked a little bit about how we wanted to handle this, and I think the idea that we came up with was making this a much more focused, pinpointed conversation. Our first conversation was relatively broad. We covered your backstory, your personal story. We looked at the hierarchy of evidence and scientific study. We talked about diet war, tribalism.

• 6:17Rich Roll?

  We took a look at the science that supports a plant-based diet, the microbiome. We talked about saturated fat, the environmental implications of diet and food choice, many other topics. If you have not listened to or watched that episode, it's number 638, please make a point of doing it, it's fantastic. But today, we're going to pursue a much more focused discussion directed towards, mostly towards those who are either already eating a plant-based diet, keen on adopting a more plant-centric diet, or looking to improve upon their plant-based diet with the goal of essentially setting yourself up for success.

• 6:57Rich Roll?

  And I think the first thing that I want to get into, or where we can start, would be to begin with common blind spots. So let's say, okay, Simon, I've been eating a plant-based diet for six months or a year. How do I know I'm doing it right? What are some of the common things that trip people up, or where they go astray before they have kind of the full, you know, encyclopedic knowledge of how to do this properly?

• 7:23Simon Hill?

  There's probably two or three main things that I've identified anyway, in working with many people who are going through this, and also through my own experience and talking to people like you. I think the first is understanding when you're minimizing or removing these animal foods that we have grown accustomed to eating all the time, what do you replace them with? Because there's a lot of different options. Everything from black beans and lentils to very processed vegan foods. The second would be understanding the difference between an animal-based diet and a plant-based diet in terms of calorie density.

• 8:07Simon Hill?

  So animal foods are typically much more calorie-dense, and...

• 8:13Simon Hill?

  Therefore, if you're wanting to eat a similar number of calories, your plate needs to look fuller.

• 8:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 8:20Simon Hill?

  When it's plant-based foods.

• 8:21Rich Roll?

  And that's a pretty common thing that you hear, like, oh, I tried it, but I was starving all the time.

• 8:26Simon Hill?

  Yes, and that is something that I personally experienced. So as I was making these changes, I was not fully cognizant of the differences in calorie density. And I, I was experiencing in, in the very beginning of my transition, a little drop in energy. And I, I was doubting whether the plant-based foods were working for me. And really, it was just that I was not consuming enough overall calories. So, understanding what to replace animal foods with, calorie density, and then the third, I'd say, is having a general awareness of specific nutrients of focus. So, all diets, whether it's an omnivorous diet or a plant-based diet, need to be appropriately planned,

• 9:11Simon Hill?

  or they can fall short. And, you know, if we look around at our current sort of state of health, the, the omnivorous diet's not really serving us that well. It has a number of holes and gaps. And while a plant-based diet can really improve your overall disease risk profile, and we spoke a lot about that in terms of, you know, shifting these biomarkers in a favorable direction, your cholesterol, your blood glucose control, inflammation, blood pressure, and lower your risk of these chronic diseases that are plaguing our society. At the same time, there are a few nutrients that you need to be aware of so that you are getting them in the, the required amounts

• 9:55Simon Hill?

  to not just prevent your risk of these chronic diseases long-term, but to really optimize yourself and, and feel at your best in your day-to-day.

• 10:04Rich Roll?

  So, the obvious next question being, what are those nutrients?

• 10:08Simon Hill?

  Yeah. So I, I call these nutrients of focus. And I think that's a positive spin on nutrients of concern. And I just, I want people, I want to draw people's attention to them. In the book, I write about eight of these. And some of these are quite easy to get through your diet and/or fortified foods, and then others are best accessed through a supplement. So, as a list, these are vitamin B12, vitamin D. Omega 3 fatty acids, iodine, iron, calcium, zinc, and selenium.

• 10:50Rich Roll?

  Right. So, given that, a skeptic would say, "Well, if I have to pay extra close attention to these things, or I have to go outside of my food that I'm consuming and supplement, then this must be a deficient diet by definition."

• 11:09Simon Hill?

  I think we need to zoom out a little bit and understand that nutritional gaps are nothing new. And it's the very reason that folate and iodine have been used throughout the food system, fortifying foods to prevent iodine deficiency and folate deficiency in the general public. So this idea of fortification or supplements is nothing new. And lots of those nutrients I just reeled off, like zinc, selenium, iron, calcium, you can easily access them through your diet. You don't need to supplement those. It's just a matter of understanding what foods do you want to be incorporating in your diet regularly? And

• 11:52Simon Hill?

  for example, if you're choosing a plant-based milk to swap out dairy, which is rich in calcium, what should you be looking for? And I would add to that, that I understand there are certain people that are very anti-supplements, and therefore that must make this, you know, the incorrect diet for optimal health and wellbeing. But, you know, not everything that is unnatural is bad for us. And there have been many, you know, parts of our life, be it modern housing, or climate control, that have improved our wellbeing. So I think just

• 12:32Simon Hill?

  presuming that everything that is natural is best is somewhat of a fallacy. And what we should be worried most about is heart health outcomes. So I have nothing against a diet that includes some supplementation, if that means the best outcomes, be it for myself, or anyone that I'm working with. And that is what the data suggests. If you want to move down this path of very plant-rich, plant-predominant diets, or even plant-exclusive, to lower your risk of chronic disease.

• 13:07Simon Hill?

  Then taking some of these supplements is going to allow you to do that in a more optimal manner.

• 13:12Rich Roll?

  Right. Certainly, things like vitamin D deficiencies are not endemic to the plant-based community. I mean, this is something that omnivores, that a lot of people, perhaps even the majority of people who are not living on the equator, experience, right?

• 13:28Simon Hill?

  Sure. And you could say the same about vitamin B12. You know, there was a study done recently, an American population, over 3,000 people, and 39% of the omnivores in there had insufficient B12 status. So you're right, the nutritional deficiencies are not just something that plant-predominant or plant-exclusive eaters experience. And I think we could all agree that the supplement industry, the billion-dollar supplement industry, is not propped up by vegans.

• 13:58Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 14:00Simon Hill?

  So there's a bit to sort of weigh up there, but the most important thing that I kind of, the point that I want to make here, is that most of this is very easily covered, and it's just a matter of taking some time to get across the information, and then you set and forget, and you focus on the overall quality of your diet, and you have a few supplements or fortified foods, and you can have peace of mind that you're getting everything that you need in the required amounts.

• 14:29Rich Roll?

  One question that I've always had, and I'm not sure I've ever asked it to anybody, certainly nobody of your experience, is there a difference between taking, like, a specific B12 supplement, either a spray or a sublingual or something like that, and a D and whatever, taking those individually versus getting a really good multivitamin that has kind of everything in it?

• 14:53Simon Hill?

  This is a great question. And some of this comes down to the person we're talking about. You know, I know that some people who are

• 15:04Simon Hill?

  Completely okay with supplements, will be happy just taking a multivitamin, knowing that a lot of those nutrients in there, they're already getting in, in the amounts that they require.

• 15:14Rich Roll?

  Right, you get the, the bright yellow pea.

• 15:16Simon Hill?

  For, yeah, so a lot of the B vitamins, you're already getting a lot of those through a very plant-rich diet. Particularly folate, for example, you're getting it in abundance. You don't really need to be supplementing that.

• 15:30Simon Hill?

  But some people just like to take a multivitamin and that's okay. I'm, I am an advocate for taking a multivitamin if that's the path you want to go down. There are some things to think about with the multivitamins because they're not all formulated for plant predominant, plant-rich people. So there are some things to, to look at specifically. And then others prefer to take individual supplements, which can mean having to buy multiple different supplements and it's not as convenient. But there are a number of brands now coming out that are creating multi-nutrients specific for the needs of someone who is adopting a, a plant-based dietary pattern.

• 16:08Rich Roll?

  Right, like Matt Fraser has a, has a

• 16:10Simon Hill?

  Exactly.

• 16:11Rich Roll?

  A multivitamin that's sort of specific to people who are eating a plant-based diet. That's directed towards the nutrients that perhaps you might be lacking.

• 16:19Simon Hill?

  Yeah, and I think those are, those are great options because they've done the work. They've realized you don't need all of these other vitamins and minerals you're already getting. And they've, they've worked out, calculated through, through science, so data-driven. How much of each of these nutrients are focused do you actually need? And, and therefore you, you end up with a more personalized supplement.

• 16:43Rich Roll?

  So with respect to B12, there's, there's different types of that. There's metacobalamin and then there's cobalamin, like which one should you be selecting?

• 16:53Simon Hill?

  Hydroxycobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. It all gets very confusing. My, my position is that the, the most studied version is cyanocobalamin. And for preventing deficiency and reversing it. And therefore, the dosages that we have, the recommended amounts of B12 to take are largely from studies looking at that type. So my recommendation is to buy a cyanico balamin B12 supplement. And you'd be looking at 250 micrograms daily or two and a half thousand micrograms once a week. Those are your two options.

• 17:34Simon Hill?

  Now, I should add to that, if you are a smoker or you have kidney disease, that's two instances where methyl cobalamin is certainly better. And then I would also add, if your supplement contains methyl cobalamin, I have worked with many people who have used that form and have completely fine B12 status. So they all seem to work. My preference being cyanico balamin is purely because that's what most of the science has looked at.

• 18:04Rich Roll?

  Because it's more bioavailable or it converts better?

• 18:08Simon Hill?

  Well, it tends to be used in the studies more because it's cheaper and more widely available. But we have seen in the last, I'd say, five or so years, a lot more brands using methyl cobalamin. And I think that's okay. My recommendation for most of this stuff is your laboratory test will really tell the story. And that's a great objective way of keeping an eye on any of these nutrients and just periodically keeping an eye on your overall health. I think it's a good idea.

• 18:40Simon Hill?

  With B12, it's worth mentioning, if you're doing a blood test, the standard blood test that your physician would order is serum B12. And that's a pretty good marker, but it's not perfect. There are active and inactive B12 molecules in our body. And the serum B12 test does pick up some of the inactive analogs. And so. The, the general rule of thumb is if you get a serum B12 test and, and it comes back and you're at the middle or upper part of the range, then you probably don't need to look into things any further. But if you're more towards the lower end of the normal

• 19:20Simon Hill?

  range, then there is another test called MMA that you can request, which is more specific and sensitive to active B12. So, you know, most people won't need to worry about that, but that's one just to be mindful of if your B12 is a little, little low and perhaps you are subjectively feeling like you don't have a lot of energy.

• 19:42Rich Roll?

  Hmm. And when we're talking about vitamin D, is there a difference between D and D3? Or are those terms conflated?

• 19:50Simon Hill?

  Those are the same. Uh, D3 is the type of vitamin D that your body will produce following sun exposure. And it's also found in, in animal products and found in plant lichen, which is a type of algae. And then there is D2, which is found in mushrooms. But D2 or D3 will both increase your vitamin D status. Um, it's, it's important to add that 80, 90% of your vitamin D status is determined by sun exposure.

• 20:25Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:26Simon Hill?

  So very little, uh, contribution from the foods that we eat. And, uh, that, that status can be really affected by how dark your skin is, uh, that where, where you live in the world. If you live at a, a northern latitude, you're, uh, more at risk of, of developing vitamin D deficiency. Uh,

• 20:53Rich Roll?

  What is the, what are the symptoms of, how does that manifest?

• 20:56Simon Hill?

  It could be an impaired immune system is, is one of the main ones. Uh, and so whether someone needs to supplement vitamin D is debated around the world heavily. And even the reference, uh, ranges are heavily debated country to country. Uh, my general sort of advice here is,

• 21:21Simon Hill?

  Unless you're getting daily sun exposure and that sun exposure, the rule of thumb is about half of the time it would take for you to burn is the amount of time in the sun it would take to produce adequate amount of vitamin D.

• 21:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, translation is the sun exposure required to produce an adequate amount of vitamin D is much more than I think people think.

• 21:46Simon Hill?

  And as I said, if you have darker skin pigmentation, you need to be in the sun for longer to produce the same amount of vitamin D as someone with fairer skin. And this is why we see people with darker skin more at risk of vitamin D deficiency. So you can, you can do a hydroxy vitamin D test and determine whether you are low or you're at a healthy level. And that could be your starting point. And so someone like you here in Los Angeles and myself in Sydney, sun exposure may be completely fine.

• 22:29Simon Hill?

  It might be adequate for us. But then someone living in the United Kingdom or perhaps part of Canada, it could be a little different. And if, if you're on the low side, the general rule of thumb for supplementation is about 1,000 to 2,000 IU. And there are a few different vitamin D supplements out there, as I mentioned. So a lot of them are actually not plant-based. They're derived from wool. So if you are looking for one.

• 23:03Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that.

• 23:03Simon Hill?

  If you're looking for one that is vegan, if that's important to you, then you want to find either vitamin D3 from plant lichen and essentially any brand selling vitamin D3 that is vegan will call out vegan on the packaging. Or the other option is vitamin D2 from mushroom.

• 23:24Rich Roll?

  Is there a specific brand that you recommend?

• 23:28Simon Hill?

  You know,

• 23:29Rich Roll?

  steer clear of that?

• 23:30Simon Hill?

  I generally do steer a little clear of recommending brands. However, I will say, because I'm asked this all the time, I have put together a PDF and I'm kind of nearly finished. It's been a huge project because trying to find the right supplements, depending on someone's age or whether their lifestyle stage, for example, prenatal, and then looking what's available around the entire world. I can, I can send you that PDF and you can perhaps put that on your website.

• 24:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, maybe we can link that up in the show notes because this isn't going up for a while. So maybe by then you'll be done with it.

• 24:06Simon Hill?

  I will, I will be done by then. But I have been reluctant to kind of associate with too many brands in the past, but it is such a regular question I get that I kind of thought, well, I need to go through this, this process. So that will definitely be made available. And I should just add to this that if someone is overweight or obese, their requirement for vitamin D is actually higher. So in that instance, it can require sort of 2,000 to 3,000 IU to achieve a healthy vitamin D status. So worth just, just keeping in mind.

• 24:44Rich Roll?

  Two questions. Is there any reason or efficacy behind like mega dosing any of these? Like, is there a minimum effective dose in that that you're, once you meet your requirements, you're good? Or is there any added benefit from taking over that amount is the first question? And then the second is, if you are deficient, how long does it take to restore your balance? I assume it's not just one, you know, you know, one vitamin and then you're good. Like, it's going to take a while, right?

• 25:21Simon Hill?

  Yeah, weeks, weeks to months it can take depending on the nutrient that we're talking about and how low someone is and what dose you give them. Mega dosing, look, I would not be recommending doing that unless it's under the guidance of your physician. And there's a very compelling reason to be doing that. You hear all sorts of things and ideas online like mega dosing vitamin D. For example, the upper limit of vitamin D is set at about 3,000 to 4,000 IU in Australia. And the sort of studies looking at toxicity have shown that up to 10,000 IU is still safe.

• 26:02Simon Hill?

  However, you know, I think, given that the published upper limit is, I believe, 4,000 IU. I would be hesitant to recommend anyone does that mega dosing without their physician overlooking it.

• 26:17Rich Roll?

  All right, got it. You mentioned iodine earlier in this list of eight nutrients. So why is that important? And what are the foods that we should be looking at to make sure that we're meeting our iodine needs?

• 26:31Simon Hill?

  Yeah, this one's often forgotten. And so it deserves a bit more airtime. So iodine is integral to our thyroid hormone production, which regulates our metabolism. And there are quite a few papers now that have shown pescetarians, vegetarians and vegans tend to have lower iodine status. There are three ways to easily get iodine in your diet. You just need to be aware of them. And the first is seaweed. So dulse and wakame nori sheets, these are, these are loaded with iodine.

• 27:13Simon Hill?

  And to give you an idea, the recommended daily intake of iodine is 150 micrograms. It's tiny. This is a trace mineral. You only need a tiny, tiny amount. And to, to, to reach that 150 micrograms, you would need about two teaspoons of dulse or wakame flakes or one nori sheet.

• 27:36Simon Hill?

  There, there are different views of that as a strategy that I see out there. And, and usually that's pertaining to the fact that the iodine content of seaweed around the world does vary. So uh that's just something to keep i- i- in mind and you can do a urinary iodine test um if you wanted to check your your status at any stage. The second uh option and is an option where you would know you're definitely getting one hundred and fifty micrograms is iodized salt. And you would need, depending on the brand, it's usually about half a teaspoon of iodized salt would provide one hundred and fifty micrograms.

• 28:19Simon Hill?

  You really need to turn it around and read the label to determine that serve. Now, the sort of potential downside of that strategy is that that comes with a thousand milligrams of sodium. Mm hmm. And the RDI of sodium is around two thousand. So uh it could be an okay strategy, let's say, for someone who's doing a lot of exercise and sweating and has healthy blood pressure. But for someone with even moderately raised blood pressure, or certainly someone with hypertension, then that's not going to be the best option for them. Right. I would add to that, and I just read about this a couple of weeks ago, and I'm I'm super glad I read it.

• 28:59Simon Hill?

  There there was a big study in China that was published, uh it must have been about five or six months ago now. And it was actually done, uh it was a collaboration between a university in Sydney and some Chinese researchers. And they did this big randomized controlled trial, looking at cardiovascular disease, specifically stroke in in China. And what they were looking at was if you swap salt, traditional salt out, for what's called uh light salt, which instead of being completely sodium chloride, it's a potassium

• 29:38Simon Hill?

  chloride, which gives you a very similar taste, but unlike sodium, potassium lowers blood pressure. Hmm. And they did find that that simple swap, swapping to this what's called low salt or light salt, those are two brands that are available, which now do iodized salt, uh is a is a great option for someone who maybe does have moderately high blood pressure.

• 30:03Rich Roll?

  I never heard of that. Is that available?

• 30:05Simon Hill?

  It's available.

• 30:05Rich Roll?

  Outside of China?

• 30:06Simon Hill?

  Yes. So I, I, I wanted to make sure, I thought it could come up today. I wanted to make sure. So you can literally go online and search low salt or light salt. You'll find Amazon, all of the major retailers have it. I'm not sure what grocery supermarkets have it on the shelves here, but it's definitely available and it reduces the sodium per sir by between 30 and 60%. So that's a sort of a good option for getting iodine into your, your diet. If, if blood pressure is not an issue is iodized salt. I, I, I think now knowing the availability of low salt, that even if you have healthy

• 30:49Simon Hill?

  blood pressure and you opt for an iodized salt, you may as well get the low salt.

• 30:53Rich Roll?

  And it tastes the same?

• 30:54Simon Hill?

  Yes. Well,

• 30:55Rich Roll?

  Or similar.

• 30:56Simon Hill?

  I read some reviews and they were, you know, the reviews sections are always quite entertaining. And there were some colorful messages in there, but the majority of people seem to think that it was similar and, and sort of like for like. So that's a potential option. The third option goes back to what you said earlier around, you know, is just taking a multi nutrient, the best way to go. And you can get a, a single sort of isolated iodine supplement by itself, and that will provide 150 micrograms. Or you can, you'll find it in pretty much all multivitamins at that, that input level.

• 31:36Simon Hill?

  And I should caveat, I guess as well, now that I think about it, these numbers I'm talking about are for healthy adults. Some of this changes if you're pregnant or breastfeeding, for example, the amount of iodine you need bumps up to in the 200s. So just keep that in mind, but. When you're working with a dietitian or physician, they'll be able to direct you into, uh, to, towards the correct dose.

• 32:03Rich Roll?

  And is iodine deficiency something that you're going to find more frequently on a plant-based diet versus an omnivorous diet?

• 32:11Simon Hill?

  Yes, so you'll, if you're not having dairy, which contains a little bit of iodine and seafood, you are, unless you're eating a lot of food with the iodized salt, you are more at risk of experiencing deficiency. So, um, you know, certainly, and I kind of alluded to this at the start, this has been one of the nutrients that probably hasn't had enough airtime. And, you know, you have those three options, I think they're pretty easy to plan for. So this doesn't need to be an issue. It's just, uh, being aware of it, realizing you only need a trace, it's a very small amount you need and just working out what option are you going for? One, two, three, and then set and forget.

• 32:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 32:59Rich Roll?

  A common fear that a lot of people have when considering a plant-based diet is, is calcium. Oh my goodness, if I don't eat dairy, I'm not drinking milk, my bones are going to turn brittle, where am I going to get my calcium? My understanding is that dark leafy greens are a pretty good source of calcium. I've never had an issue with this, but how do you think about that and ensuring that people are meeting their calcium needs?

• 33:23Simon Hill?

  Firstly, I would say that building strong bones is a team game. We've reduced it very much to just calcium, but it's so much more than that. And even before talking about nutrition, I think it's worth emphasizing that exercise is arguably far, far more important. Both impact exercise, so we're talking about jogging or skipping, uh, you know, going up and downstairs or hopping, that sort of impact exercise is a stimulus. You know, the, the body, uh, structure reflects function.

• 34:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 34:02Simon Hill?

  And, and so it responds to that by laying down more bone, increasing your, your bone mineral density. And then the second type of exercise, resistance training. So. Be it lower body, things like squats or upper body with bands. The research is pretty, pretty clear that we need to be doing this stuff regularly for as long as possible to prevent a significant amount of bone loss, which does naturally occur as you age, but you want to slow that down.

• 34:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's some interesting studies out there about lack of bone density or bone loss in elite cyclists because there's no impact, despite the fact that they're incredibly fit.

• 34:46Simon Hill?

  Yes.

• 34:47Rich Roll?

  There's an issue with that.

• 34:48Simon Hill?

  And that's a great point. So cycling and swimming are incredible from a cardiovascular point of view, but they're not, they're not loading the bone in the same way. So it's not really about either or, you know, you want to be working both cardiovascular exercise in as well as this impact resistance training. And there is a lot of studies showing, for example, with osteopenia or osteoporosis, osteopenia being kind of like prediabetes is to type two diabetes.

• 35:18Rich Roll?

  Osteopenia being a precursor to osteoporosis.

• 35:22Simon Hill?

  You sort of go through that phase usually first, but there is a lot of research looking at this and, and it's clear that just walking, for example, is not enough to, to prevent that bone loss and to prevent getting to a point where you have an osteoporotic fracture. And one in two people in this country and in Australia aged over 50 will have an osteoporotic fracture. So this is a, an incredibly important conversation. So to your, the start of this and to answer your question more directly, calcium is important and the recommended daily intake around the world, it varies country to country.

• 36:04Simon Hill?

  Again, it's another one where people really haven't settled on a kind of universal figure. The World Health Organization start at 500 milligrams a day and the United Kingdom is about 700 milligrams a day. And then there are other countries like Australia and the United States where it's between 1,000 and 1,300 milligrams per day. And I was really interested in kind of understanding the data and why there is confusion. And what I landed on was consistently, it seems that you need to be consuming at least 700

• 36:41Simon Hill?

  milligrams, which is in line with the United Kingdom recommendations as a way of preventing the development of osteopenia or osteoporosis. And what I can tell you is that when you look across all of the different population studies, looking at vegetarian and vegan cohorts, they are consistently getting that much calcium on average. So on average, they're getting that, but whenever you look at an average, we need to be aware that there are going to be people falling below. So it is still something to be aware of. And you're right, these foods like dark leafy greens and also your cruciferous vegetables

• 37:25Simon Hill?

  like broccoli, but also seeds like sesame seeds and tahini, these are very, very rich in calcium. My recommendation is to add a plant-based milk to your diet that has calcium in it.

• 37:44Rich Roll?

  Fortified with calcium.

• 37:45Simon Hill?

  Fortified with calcium. And in my experience, working with a lot of people, this is a nice way to sort of bulletproof the diet and ensure that you're getting over 700 milligrams. And my general advice is to look for a plant-based milk that has at least 100 milligrams of calcium per 150 mils. And what that means is when you have a cup or a cup and a half, you'll be getting 300, 400 milligrams of calcium. And by the time you've had all of your fruits and vegetables and legumes and nuts and seeds, you're well above the 700 milligram sort of threshold where we want to be. But as I kind of alluded to.

• 38:31Simon Hill?

  This is a team game and you can have as much calcium in your diet as you want and still develop osteoporosis. And we know that because countries that drink the most milk have the highest rates of osteoporosis. So.

• 38:47Rich Roll?

  What is that attributable to?

• 38:49Simon Hill?

  So it speaks to the fact that it is a team game. And there we do see that countries that are consuming the most dairy also have the lowest vitamin D status will tend to. And vitamin D is crucial for bone mineral density because it actually enhances the absorption of calcium in your diet. So if you're deficient in vitamin D, you will absorb less calcium.

• 39:14Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 39:16Simon Hill?

  So building strong bones, you need to make sure you're across vitamin D. You are hitting this calcium threshold. But then also vitamin B12, which we spoke about, integral and protein. And if you're covering all of those bases and you are doing the exercise, then that is all going to sort of coalesce to, to really reduce your risk of developing, you know, quote unquote, weak bones.

• 39:44Rich Roll?

  Right. So load bearing exercise, vitamin D and calcium all work in tandem.

• 39:51Simon Hill?

  Hmm. And I mentioned protein. And, and this is partly why the recommendations for protein as someone gets to sort of 50, 60 goes up a little bit. And this is, it, this is mostly to do with trying to slow down this, this rate of bone mineral density loss, but also to slow down the rate of muscle loss. And, and I'm sure we might speak in a minute about protein and what that looks like.

• 40:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I want to dive into protein, but I want to put a pin in that. Also, I have questions about plant-based milks. We'll table that for now because I want to work through these eight nutrients. The next being, being iron and.

• 40:36Rich Roll?

  Correct me if I'm wrong, but iron works similarly in that its absorption is impacted by your vitamin C levels, or taking iron with vitamin C enhances that absorption. But maybe before even addressing that, talk a little bit about the differences between plant-based iron, in other words, non-heme iron versus animal-based iron, heme iron.

• 40:58Simon Hill?

  Sure. So there are two different types of iron. Heme iron is the type of iron you'll find in blood, and that's why you get it from animal foods. Animal foods also contain non-heme iron as well. About 40% of the iron in animal foods is heme, and 60% is non-heme. And in plants, 100% of the iron is non-heme. Now broadly speaking, to keep this nice and simple, the main difference is that heme iron is absorbed more rapidly than non-heme iron. And that is because non-heme iron is

• 41:37Simon Hill?

  often bound to other molecules, which can slow down and reduce the total absorption. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. There is a protective effect of that as well, because we know that high iron in the body, and particularly heme iron, is associated with colorectal cancer and cardiovascular disease. So this is often, you know, I see on social media, this discussion around, well, heme iron is absorbed more rapidly, therefore it must be better. And I think we just need to acknowledge that more is not always better.

• 42:15Simon Hill?

  That's not to say that people eating a plant-based diet don't need to think about iron. It's the number one deficiency in the world, regardless of what diet people are eating. So this is a real issue. And so there will always be people that are eating a plant-based diet that have problems with iron. It's just part of being human, everyone. Well, not everyone, but a large percentage of the population are dealing with this.

• 42:43Rich Roll?

  Even people that are eating meat and dairy products three times a day.

• 42:47Simon Hill?

  There are still people. There are absolutely still people.

• 42:50Rich Roll?

  Is there a genetic predisposition that is problematic with respect to iron absorption? Or what is that caused by if somebody's eating plenty of foods that have iron in them?

• 43:00Simon Hill?

  Well, they could be, but also you're, you know, you're at higher risk when you are a female of childbearing age and menstruation and losing blood. And so it's not, it's not all boiling down to just how much you consume. And I think that's important to note. There are, there are at-risk groups and females of childbearing age are right up there with the most at-risk. Is there a genetic component? Perhaps I haven't read anything that speaks to that, but I wouldn't rule that out. I mean, a lot of, of omnivores are dealing with iron deficiency. And it's, it's also not uncommon for someone from an omnivorous diet to change to a plant-based diet and see their iron status go up.

• 43:45Simon Hill?

  That can happen. If you, if we look at the population studies, again, just comparing omnivores to vegetarians, there is no difference in rates of iron deficiency. However, vegetarians and vegans do have lower iron stores. And you will see that when you do your blood test and one of the tests looks at iron stores. So not the iron, the circulating iron, but how much your body is storing. And that is typically lower in plant-based eaters, but is not thought to be a problem as long as you're topping up your iron through your diet. I usually like to, to, to speak to ways to enhance absorption.

• 44:29Simon Hill?

  You know, a lot of people listening to this, particularly males.

• 44:34Simon Hill?

  Their iron status will be completely fine. And they don't really need to focus on this information I'm about to share because it is over complicating things. So this is more for someone who potentially has lower iron status and is trying to bump it up a bit. The foods that are very rich in iron are your legumes, foods like pumpkin seeds, dark leafy greens. Chlorella is a great sort of superfood that's super rich in in iron. And what we want to focus on is regularly including these iron-rich foods in the diet, but pairing them with specific foods that will enhance absorption and trying to avoid

• 45:15Simon Hill?

  some foods and drinks that can inhibit absorption. So firstly, talking about the inhibitors, coffee and tea.

• 45:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, caffeine.

• 45:26Simon Hill?

  They're the two big ones. They they can decrease the amount of iron you're absorbing. So if you're sitting down for a big meal with lots of beans and dark leafy greens, it might be a good idea to separate that coffee out at least an hour or so either side of the meal, and you will absorb more iron from that that meal. Then there are a few things you can add to your meals to enhance absorption. The first one, and the one that is the the most effective, is sources of vitamin C. And typically, you know, one that I recommend for for people is lemon juice, squeezing

• 46:08Simon Hill?

  that over your dark leafy greens or your stir fry with beans. But equally, there are other foods like strawberries that are packed with vitamin C. So a snack could be dried apricots, which are super rich in iron, with some strawberries. And that's a that's a that's a nice match.

• 46:28Simon Hill?

  Bell pepper, or capsicum, we call it in Australia. That's another very vitamin C rich food. So matching these foods in your meals to enhance iron absorption. And then the other one that I think is really neat, and there's some cool science looking at this, is onion and garlic will both increase iron absorption significantly.

• 46:50Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that one.

• 46:51Simon Hill?

  So, you know, I usually start any sort of meal, savory meal, stir fry, or tofu scramble in the pan with some onion and garlic. And I think a lot of people do that. That can be a great strategy as well to increase the iron absorption.

• 47:08Rich Roll?

  One of the habits that I adopted a while ago that that I still do today is I keep a bag of pumpkin seeds in my car with some fruit that's high in vitamin C. So when I'm driving around, like, that's like my little go to snack and helps me kind of keep things topped off.

• 47:27Simon Hill?

  You're on the program.

• 47:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:31Rich Roll?

  Another habit that I've adopted is eating, you know, a few Brazil nuts every day or every other day, which are high in selenium, right? Which is another nutrient on your list. Why is selenium important?

• 47:45Simon Hill?

  So selenium feeds back to thyroid again, important for production of thyroid hormones. And as you say, it doesn't require a lot of planning to hit the selenium recommended intake levels, which are only about 70, 60, 70 micrograms a day. Not much. One, two Brazil nuts will get you there. And you're also getting quite a lot of selenium through wheat. So whole wheat pasta or bread and a lot of other foods like mushrooms. So you will be getting it elsewhere elsewhere in your diet. But the addition of one or two Brazil nuts will just ensure you're categorically above that recommended level.

• 48:26Rich Roll?

  And there's something about the Brazil nut or the selenium content of the Brazil nut that has some downstream impact on testosterone production, right?

• 48:35Simon Hill?

  Okay, I haven't read that.

• 48:37Rich Roll?

  Oh, you haven't?

• 48:37Simon Hill?

  That's interesting.

• 48:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, there's, well, I don't want to, I don't want to speak out of school because I don't know, but there's, I'm remembering something about that.

• 48:47Simon Hill?

  Well, we can look into it.

• 48:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, maybe you can look into that. We'll link something up in the show notes about that. All right, so selenium is important, why?

• 48:56Simon Hill?

  So back to thyroid, it's

• 48:58Rich Roll?

  Oh yeah, you already mentioned that.

• 48:59Simon Hill?

  Yeah, metabolism. I mean, it has a whole lot of different functions in the body, but it is integral again to thyroid health, which is integral to your metabolism and management of your body weight. So I don't, I don't think we really need to go into too much more than that in terms of

• 49:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 49:19Simon Hill?

  the biological sort of pathways. But the, the main point being it's super easy to, to get in your diet. So although it's in this, this list of eight nutrients of focus, rarely would a plant-based eater not get enough selenium. I, I just like talking about it because it, it, uh, it, it, it's a nice one to point to Brazil nuts as a single food that people can look to, to ensure adequate intake.

• 49:47Rich Roll?

  Okay. Final thing on your list of eight nutrients is zinc.

• 49:52Simon Hill?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:53Rich Roll?

  We're hearing a lot about zinc lately. We're being told that we should be making sure that we're on top of our zinc for, for COVID purposes. So I assume without knowing that there's some link between zinc and immune system function.

• 50:07Simon Hill?

  Definitely. Very important for immunity, for hair, skin, nail health, for energy production, you know, preventing DNA damage. It's a, it's a crucial mineral and you're going to find it mostly in nuts and legumes, a kind of like the, and seeds, hemp seeds, for example, packed with zinc. But cashews, another great one, pretty easy to get as long as you're regularly eating nuts and seeds and legumes, which anyone who is adopting a whole food, plant-based diet will be, you'll have no problems reaching the sort of adequate intake for that.

• 50:53Rich Roll?

  Right. I think that's a good place to pivot to a different category here. At the outset, we kind of opened this with a discussion about how to optimize your plant-based diet and the idea that just because you're eating vegan doesn't necessarily mean that it's healthy. There's all kinds of meat and dairy analogues out there, some of them moderately healthy, some very much not healthy. So on that note, let's talk a little bit about these analogues. When we think about what's available now, the Beyond Meats and the Impossibles, are these products healthy? Do they have a place in a healthy, optimal, plant-based diet?

• 51:37Simon Hill?

  I think they certainly have a place. No word about it, but there are some that are healthier than others. So it's nice to be able to be able to read the label and quickly scan to see a few different things and make a healthier decision.

• 51:58Rich Roll?

  And what are the things that we should be looking at when we look at that label?

• 52:02Simon Hill?

  So I usually focus on sodium, on fiber and saturated fat. And I'm looking for a product that has 400mg or less sodium per serve, ideally around five grams of fiber per serve. That is not always achievable. That narrows the field a lot.

• 52:23Rich Roll?

  Is it? Yeah, that pretty much eliminates almost everything in the category.

• 52:28Simon Hill?

  Yeah, well, not quite, but it will really point you in the right direction. And then saturated fat, look, this really depends on the person. If you're someone who has healthy cholesterol levels, and we kind of spoke about what optimal cholesterol levels are previously, which is south of 100mg per deciliter. And as you get down to 60 to 70, that's where you see no atherosclerosis. If you're sitting down at that sort of level, you can afford to have a bit more saturated fat in your diet. And so when I'm working with people, I encourage someone who has higher cholesterol to be looking for the

• 53:10Simon Hill?

  lower saturated fat options. These are the ones that have two grams or less saturated fat per serve. But if your cholesterol is at an optimal level, then you know, I really see no problem with the four, five grams of saturated fat per serve within the context of a healthy plant-based dietary pattern. And that seems to be, you know, pretty typical. A lot of them sit at around three grams of saturated fat, four, five. I certainly wouldn't be, you know, routinely selecting the ones that have north of five grams of saturated fat per serve.

• 53:48Rich Roll?

  What about the binders and the emulsifiers and all these other ingredients that go into, you know, creating that texture that, you know, people like?

• 53:57Simon Hill?

  So my answer to that would be we need more data. And I'm not saying that these are necessarily bad or they're not. There just hasn't been a lot of studies on some of these ingredients. And, you know, there was a study that came out last week on carboxymethylcellulose, which is a common emulsifier. And I spoke to Tim Spector, who's a professor from King's College about this. And it was a short-term study. But these studies, I should say, Rich, they're just starting to surface, looking at how these ingredients interact with our

• 54:36Simon Hill?

  microbiome, for example. And they, they did see disruption in this study to the microbiome with the consumption of this emulsifier. However, it was 15 grams a day. And if you're consuming one plant-based burger that has, you know, probably half a gram of it maximum in there, then perhaps it doesn't have the same effect. So in the absence of, of the data, you know, I'm kind of reserving my judgment on a lot of those ingredients. What I will say is that

• 55:17Simon Hill?

  there has been a study out of Stanford University called the Swap Meat Trial. And I think this is quite instructive because it really, it, it takes a very well-known plant-based meat product beyond burger and stacks it up directly against meat products. And they chose high-quality organic meat products to make sure that this was a good study, fair. And I think this is instructive because it looked more at our overall risk factors for cardiovascular disease, which is the leading cause of death. You know, having a heart attack is the most likely reason that you or I are to die. That's just fact.

• 56:02Simon Hill?

  And they, they had these subjects come in and do an eight week randomized controlled trial crossover. So you had a period where you ate the animal, the animal meat products, and then you had a period where you ate the plant-based meats supplied by Beyond.

• 56:23Rich Roll?

  So every participant did both?

• 56:25Simon Hill?

  Every participant did both, and they did them in different orders. And they were most interested in blood pressure, LDL cholesterol, and also a biomarker of cardiovascular disease called TMAO. And they instructed participants to consume two serves of these meat products per day. So that was the kind of volume that they were exposed to. And they, they did see over the, the course of this study that when subjects were consuming the plant-based meats, they had significant reductions in TMAO, they had significant reductions in LDL cholesterol.

• 57:08Simon Hill?

  And, and I, I want to remind people, this is not comparing against the unhealthiest meats out there. It was literally from an organic butcher in San Francisco. And these were 80% lean beef products. So it wasn't set up to make the beef fail. And then blood pressure, they saw no significant difference. And that was important because a lot of these plant-based meat products are often very rich in sodium, which I mentioned before. So, I mean, the findings from, from that study are promising. It's, it's one study, it's, it's early days, but based on the nutritional profile of these products, particularly if you're selecting them according to how I kind of walk through.

• 57:53Simon Hill?

  And the results of that study, I have no problem with these featuring within a whole food, plant-based dietary pattern. I certainly don't think they should be the mainstay at every single meal, because then they're coming at the expense of legumes and tempeh and beans, lentils, tempeh, tofu, foods that we know absolutely are great for driving down disease risk.

• 58:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're gonna get no argument from me that the program really should be predominated by whole foods, plant-based, close to their natural state. The question was really like, if you have one of these every once in a while, what is the impact of that? And I think one of the reasons that I bring it up is there's a narrative, particularly amongst sort of the paleo crowd, right? Like, these are all science experiments, they're terrible. There are GMOs in a lot of these products, and there are these emulsifiers and all these other things, these binders that go into creating these products. So, yes, a whole food is going to always be better, but how bad are they truly? Like, what is

• 59:02Rich Roll?

  a trumped-up narrative versus the truth? And what I gather from what you're saying is we're just at the beginning of studying this. The Stanford University study seems to be interesting in that when balanced at least against a typical burger, an organic burger, it's still gonna measure out better in terms of those main markers.

• 59:23Simon Hill?

  Compared to what is like the critical question here. If people are adding these into their diet and it's knocking out the enormous amounts of animal protein, I think it's definitely shifting their overall health profile in the right direction. And I'm also mindful of the fact that Consistency over time is far more important than, you know, how healthy every single food or every single meal is. And some of these foods make it easier for people to sustain a, uh, an otherwise whole food, plant-based dietary pattern for longer. Uh, some of that

• 1:00:03Simon Hill?

  can be down to social circumstances, uh, you know, many different factors. So, uh, my sort of view of them is I certainly wouldn't want to vilify them. I think they serve a role. With that said, I would love more and more studies to be done on them. And I think that we should hold these companies accountable. So that as more data comes out and, and we understand more, they are reformulating and, and continuing to improve their product to make it not just delicious and a great alternative to meat, but healthier as well.

• 1:00:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, particularly the more ubiquitous they become and the more they find their way into kind of our fast food and fast casual infrastructure because so many people are eating them. So there is an accountability thing that I think is important here. And my hope is that as these things continue to scale, that we're also seeing the onramping of healthier versions of all of these things. And I'm already seeing that. Like I just was in Vancouver at this big plant-based expo and there must have been 200 exhibitors there. There's so many food companies that are doing interesting things. And to see what people are doing with, with mushrooms and, and all these like ingredients that you never would have thought would comprise like the architecture of a plant-based food,

• 1:01:22Rich Roll?

  but doing it with natural ingredients. And I think that's pretty exciting.

• 1:01:25Simon Hill?

  Yeah, I love the, there's some really great mushroom products coming out. There's a few of those in Australia. And, uh, you know, I'm, I'm very optimistic. For example, there is a company in Australia called Bud's. And, uh, you know, I like the fact that they're, they're Australian because there's not a whole lot of kind of big players in this space that are, so I'm kind of rooting for them. Uh, but I say that because they have contacted me and I've spoken to them about the nutritional profile of their products. So I do genuinely think that these companies are aware that they need to not only be an alternative, they do need to be healthier. And a great example of that is Back to Beyond Meat. They just released, I think, two new burgers. One is

• 1:02:11Simon Hill?

  I think about 50% reduced saturated fat and the other is 30% reduced saturated fat. And these are iterations for them. So, uh, you know, that change, that, that will happen. And, uh, you know, key message being they probably shouldn't be the absolute mainstay of your diet. But, you know, their inclusion can make a diet more enjoyable for certain people. And let's also keep in mind that, uh, compared to the products they're displacing, they're much better for the environment from a, a land use point of view, from a water preservation point of view, uh, from a greenhouse gas emitting point of view. And, uh, at the same time, they're, you know, kinder to, to all life on the planet.

• 1:02:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, a hundred percent, but it's also a compared to what situation as well because, you know, most of them are not organic and they rely on monocropping for their supply chain. So there's a whole other like layer or level of creating these things in a more sustainable, healthy way.

• 1:03:16Simon Hill?

  I think that's part of holding them accountable. You know, very much at the moment, they're kind of seem to be from my understanding and speaking to certain people is that they're piggybacking off of a lot of the sort of monocrops that are grown, that are fed into the animal agriculture industry. But what certainly what I'd like to see going forward is these companies supporting regenerative agriculture and not just using monocroped ingredients, thinking about polycropping. And, uh, you know, that's just another component of, of holding them accountable. And, you know, most of them are pledging that they are, they are pro planetary health. So, you know, I'm, I'm optimistic.

• 1:03:56Rich Roll?

  Well, of course, that's the, that's the whole reason for their existence. But I think the real value add proposition here is that it's transitioning other people who are otherwise not consider going plant-based at all into a more plant oriented diet and getting them off these animal products. So it's again, it goes back to the comparison against what are you comparing these things to?

• 1:04:21Simon Hill?

  And you know, part of that transition period, uh, it can be difficult to acclimatize to more fiber. And, and so that's where some of these products can be really helpful. Uh, and you know, I actually recommend them to a number of people that are, uh, going through the steps of, of, of trying to reduce animal products in their diet. And perhaps they're finding the, the sudden increase in legumes to be a little bit like an atomic bomb.

• 1:04:50Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:51Simon Hill?

  And that is one way of helping back off the, the fiber a little bit and, and make that process more comfortable.

• 1:04:58Rich Roll?

  Well, let's talk about that for a minute because that's another thing that I hear a lot. I'm sure you do as well. I tried a plant-based diet and the beans and the legumes and all of that. I just was so bloated and gassy and I just couldn't, I couldn't hang with it.

• 1:05:11Simon Hill?

  It's a process. And we spoke about that other, the fermented food, uh, fiber study last time, which I think illustrated that, uh, the addition of fiber to the diet will have varying effects on people depending on where their baseline microbiome is. So if someone has a, a more severely disrupted microbiome, you know, perhaps they, they had a lot of antibiotics growing up and have been eating a very high ultra-processed food diet, uh, that we know is disruptive. Um, they, they, they may struggle a little more with increasing their fiber intake, uh, very rapidly. So going slow and low is,

• 1:05:52Simon Hill?

  from my experience, by far the best strategy, rather than an over the night, you know, changing from the average intake of fiber is about 12 to 15 grams in, in, uh, Australia and America. Going from that to north of 30, 40 grams is going to really shock your system. So I usually work on ramping it up with people, you know, starting with small increments. For example, a quarter of a cup of cooked lentils is about four grams of fiber. And that's how much I'll get people to modulate their diet by every day, second day, and to step through these changes over two, three, four months, rather than trying to do it,

• 1:06:34Simon Hill?

  you know, all in, in one week. On the topic of, of legumes, a game changer that I've personally, uh, felt and used, and also something that I know has helped a lot of other people is pressure cookers. An instant pot, have you heard of that?

• 1:06:51Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, we have one.

• 1:06:52Simon Hill?

  Yeah. So, I mean, if you're buying dried beans, they need to be soaked and then cooked. That can be a very drawn out, long process and some people don't have the time to do that. And a pressure cooker is a much faster way of doing it. You still can soak them beforehand, but soaking doesn't take up a lot of your own time and it is optional. But the pressure cooker will essentially, you'll have your beans or legumes ready in an hour, hour and a half, depending on the type, and certainly makes them a lot more digestible. And you can add into there some ginger or kombu, which is a type of seaweed,

• 1:07:35Simon Hill?

  which I haven't found a whole lot of good data on, but anecdotally does seem to be helping people digest them. And so that's, that's one strategy that I do recommend is making sure you're preparing your legumes properly. And in doing that, you'll reduce some of the fermentable carbohydrates, the sort of gas-producing carbohydrates, and thus they'll be a little bit easier to tolerate. If you're buying canned beans, you can also reduce some of those gas-producing molecules by rinsing them very thoroughly under water before you eat them.

• 1:08:15Rich Roll?

  But ostensibly, what you're saying is, in terms of this acclimation period, it's really a period of time in which your microbiome has to adjust to this different type of food. And by eating it, you're kind of seeding your gut lining with the prebiotic, the biota ostensibly, that you need to create this new flora that then can digest these foods without the bloating and the gassiness. Yeah.

• 1:08:44Simon Hill?

  And, and, and so, uh, exactly. It's, it's a little bit like fertilizer. You're, you're, you're sprinkling this fertilizer over the, the microbes and they will proliferate. And the microbes that are fermenting these carbohydrates will grow in numbers. And so you, your, your gut, put simply, will grow stronger. Similar to going into the gym, picking up a weight and progressively increasing that weight. Your muscle will grow stronger. Uh, and, you know, the, the downstream effect of, of doing that is creating a more diverse microbiome, which produces more of those wonderful short chain fatty acids,

• 1:09:27Simon Hill?

  which help maintain the integrity of that mucosal layer and, and the, uh, epithelial cells that line the, the large intestine and, uh, helps reduce inflammation and, uh, improve blood glucose control. All those things we spoke about previously.

• 1:09:44Rich Roll?

  Right. The, the diversity of plant foods contributes to a more diverse microbiome, which makes you more robust. The analogy being when you go to the gym, you do all different kinds of, as many different types of exercises as possible to become as bulletproof as possible.

• 1:10:02Simon Hill?

  Yeah. And I've kind of oversimplified it a little bit there. There, there is more going on in terms of, uh, the microbiota composition. Uh, we're just learning now about polyphenols, how they affect the, the microbiome.

• 1:10:17Rich Roll?

  I like how excited you get.

• 1:10:18Simon Hill?

  And.

• 1:10:19Rich Roll?

  Every time you say polyphenols, you get this big smile on your face. Like,

• 1:10:22Simon Hill?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:23Rich Roll?

  The only person who smiles more broadly with that word is Dr. B, I think.

• 1:10:28Simon Hill?

  Yeah. And, uh, you know, ironically, we've had some great chats about them. Uh, but, you know, I say that because like black beans, for example, are very rich in polyphenols. And so it's not just fiber that is modulating the, the microbiome, but also these polyphenols, which, you know, just five, 10 years ago, we thought were all absorbed in the small intestine.

• 1:10:48Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:49Simon Hill?

  Most of them are traveling through to the large intestine, where they are directly affecting the, the microbiota, where they're, uh, where they're acting as a, another form of prebiotic. They fall under the same banner as prebiotic fiber and resistant starch. And they provoke an increase in the proliferation of these short chain fatty acid producing bacteria. There was a recent study that came out, which took older people. These were people that were aged about sixty six years of age and did a randomized controlled trial. And very neat design because they held the fiber the same, but just increased polyphenols in one arm.

• 1:11:34Simon Hill?

  And they saw that the group who added these polyphenols, and that was largely from like green tea and pomegranate and some cocoa. These are all very polyphenol rich foods. They had decreased levels of zonulin, which is a marker of intestinal permeability or quote unquote leaky gut.

• 1:11:55Simon Hill?

  So, you know.

• 1:11:56Rich Roll?

  So for somebody who suffers from some kind of ulcerative colitis or autoimmune gut related disorder, amping up your polyphenols might be a good idea.

• 1:12:07Simon Hill?

  Yeah, and the idea here, and this is very, very preliminary, but there are some theories out there that where someone is not tolerating the the fiber, the increase in fiber so much, it might be a good strategy to increase polyphenols first. And from some of these foods where they're incredibly rich in polyphenols, but quite low in fiber like like green tea, for example, as a way to encourage microbiome diversity, similar to what we spoke about with the fermented foods.

• 1:12:39Rich Roll?

  Right, so you're increasing or you're decreasing gut permeability prior to sort of ramping up the fiber, which might cause some distress if you have a permeability issue.

• 1:12:52Simon Hill?

  Yeah, and that's a that's something that an experiment no doubt will test. And I think the Sonnenbergs at Stanford are doing something similar. So we'll know more about that, but in theory, from a mechanistic point of view, it does make sense.

• 1:13:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I gotta get those Sonnenbergs on the podcast.

• 1:13:09Simon Hill?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:09Rich Roll?

  Have you spoken to them?

• 1:13:10Simon Hill?

  Yeah, I spoke to-

• 1:13:11Rich Roll?

  We talked about that, didn't we?

• 1:13:12Simon Hill?

  Yeah, well, actually only spoke to Justin about four days ago for the first time. I've spoken many times to Chris Gardner, but yeah, you should get them-

• 1:13:21Rich Roll?

  Chris Gardner's the one who did the Beyond versus Organic Bee study, right?

• 1:13:25Simon Hill?

  And he comes up with all these acronyms like the Swap Meat Trial and like Diet Fits and he's a laugh. But yeah, the Sonnenbergs, both Justin and Erica are like the whizzes when it comes to the microbiome. So certainly, yeah, you should get them on.

• 1:13:40Rich Roll?

  I hear everything you're saying, but Simon, with respect to beans at least, Dr. Gundry told me I gotta worry about these lectins.

• 1:13:49Simon Hill?

  Hmm. Well, this comes back to understanding exposure level when we consider whether a food or a nutrient is healthy or harmful. And an analogy here that I'll use is oxygen. If I gave you pure oxygen, 100% oxygen, you would pass out and eventually die. But I'm sure that you would agree with me that oxygen is healthy and it's life sustaining. And we need it. It's in our air, right? Oxygen in air is at 26%, I believe, is the concentration. And at that level, it is very healthy.

• 1:14:33Simon Hill?

  The dose makes the poison, and this is similar with lectins. We could cherry pick and look at some mechanistic studies, animal studies where they're exposed to very, very high, extremely high levels of lectins that you would never be exposed to in your diet. And we could show some impairment of the microbiome or the intestinal barrier and leaky gut. However, if we zoom back out and look at all of the data on people consuming legumes, observational data shows that they're the hallmark of the diets of the people who live the longest. You know?

• 1:15:15Simon Hill?

  And then we see experimentally in randomized controlled trials that the addition of these foods help improve biomarkers of disease like cholesterol, for example. So the dose really makes the poison. Beans do contain lectins, that's true. And it's why I wouldn't recommend eating dried beans.

• 1:15:39Rich Roll?

  But nobody eats dried beans.

• 1:15:40Simon Hill?

  Nobody does, except there is one study where, and this is cited, where patients, if I recall correctly, in Japan were accidentally fed raw, improperly prepared legumes and they had an acute reaction response to it. And certainly I just wouldn't recommend doing it. It's why we soak, it's why we use a pressure cooker. It reduces lectins and they're still there, but they're reduced to a level where they're actually thought to be very beneficial. And this is the sort of ironic thing, and you could run a search and look at this online. There are just as many mechanistic studies showing benefits of lectins

• 1:16:24Simon Hill?

  and that lectins actually have anti-carcinogenic properties. So.

• 1:16:30Rich Roll?

  So why does Gundry have such a bee in his bonnet over this?

• 1:16:34Simon Hill?

  Well, I think that he's over extrapolating from these studies in animals where they are exposed to enormous amount of lectins. I haven't seen any good evidence to suggest that we should be worried about lectins in properly prepared legumes. And very, very consistently, you know, legumes are shown to improve health. They're arguably one of the healthiest foods out there on planet Earth. So, you know, it's an absolute message and it helps sell a book. I'm not sure what else I can say.

• 1:17:11Rich Roll?

  I mean, it is the consistent theme across all the blue zones. And Dan Buettner is always talking about beans being really, you know, the centerpiece of a healthy diet.

• 1:17:22Simon Hill?

  So I think we can put to rest the lectin fear. And then with that said, you know, still acknowledge that when you're adding legumes to your diet and you haven't had them in your diet, that it's going to take some time for your microbiome to adjust, go low, go slow, use some of those strategies that we spoke about, and you will absolutely get there.

• 1:17:46Rich Roll?

  Right, you're gonna fart and you're gonna burp a little bit, but it'll be fine.

• 1:17:50Simon Hill?

  It'll be a bumpy ride.

• 1:17:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:17:51Simon Hill?

  But it'll be worth it.

• 1:17:54Rich Roll?

  So Simon, animal protein versus plant protein, perhaps the number one concern for most people who are considering a plant-based diet.

• 1:18:05Simon Hill?

  Let's break this down to basics first. Protein, what is it? It's amino acids, and they're the building blocks of all of the 30,000-odd proteins in our body. And there are 11 non-essential amino acids. Those are amino acids our body can produce endogenously. And then there are nine essential amino acids, which our body cannot produce, and therefore it's critical that we're getting them in our diet in some way, shape, or form, in the required amounts.

• 1:18:45Simon Hill?

  We covered previously that there is a myth that plant-based foods are missing essential amino acids, and that's not true. All plants do contain all nine essential amino acids. So it's not as if when you are removing animal foods and you're going to plant foods, that there is absence of any of these building blocks that you cannot get, and therefore your body would have trouble building protein. That's not the case.

• 1:19:20Simon Hill?

  Second thing that I think is important for all of us to understand, and sometimes I overlook this in my explanations, is our food contains protein, whether it's chicken, or whether it's beans, or whether it's tofu, whatever it may be. And when we digest that, we break that protein down into amino acids. And amino acids are absorbed into the bloodstream. And then, once they're in our bloodstream, they're not tagged. Our body has no idea if that was a leucine molecule from chicken, or if it was from soy. There, once they're in the bloodstream, they are just available amino acids for our body to use as it needs

• 1:20:04Simon Hill?

  to, to produce protein. So with all of that said, then it becomes clear that we just need to get enough of those nine essential amino acids into our bloodstream, and our body will do the rest of the work.

• 1:20:20Rich Roll?

  Their bloodstream transports them where they need to go. And when they arrive at their destination, they're the building blocks to be assembled into whatever the body needs in that specific location.

• 1:20:32Simon Hill?

  Exactly. And I don't want to cover or retrace too much territory, but the only way that you would run into problem on a plant-based diet in terms of supplying adequate amounts of each of those nine essential amino acids, is if you were severely under-eating and getting nowhere near the total number of calories that you require. Or, and/or, living off of one or two foods, as you can often see in certain parts of the world where there are food security issues. And that's a whole nother conversation.

• 1:21:07Rich Roll?

  So if you're super deficient in one of the nine essential amino acids, then your body can't actually rebuild those proteins that it needs, and you're going to run into problems.

• 1:21:17Simon Hill?

  Exactly. It becomes a limiting amino acid, and then it affects protein synthesis. And of course, we want to avoid that. If you are eating with diversity...

• 1:21:30Simon Hill?

  And you're paying attention to regularly consuming the protein-rich plant foods, which I like to point out that most of the protein is coming from the legume food group. Also quite a bit from nuts and seeds. So if you are including regularly the likes of beans, lentils, chickpeas, tofu, tempeh, legume pastas, even seitan or total TVP, these are all very, very protein-rich foods. And as long as you're including them in your diet, and I like to recommend people have, you know, at least three serves of those a day. A serve being about half a cup of beans or half a cup of tofu.

• 1:22:14Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:22:14Simon Hill?

  Uh, or a cup of soy milk. That's another good, very protein-rich serve. Um, if, as long as you're getting three of those in a day across the diet, then you will be consuming these essential amino acids in the required amounts. Of course, if you're an athlete, then you're going to want to pay even more attention to leaning into that food group. And you might consider a, a protein supplement, which is, you know, something that all athletes consider, whether they consume an omnivorous diet or a plant-based diet. And then there is also a strong case to be made. And I was recently speaking with Jenny Messina, who's a, a very well-known registered dietitian

• 1:22:58Simon Hill?

  in the sort of plant-based community. And we were talking about, there is a very compelling case for paying a little more attention to protein as you get over the age of 50.

• 1:23:09Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:09Simon Hill?

  And some of that, again, feeds back to our earlier conversation around bone mineral density and lean muscle. Uh, we, we know that having more lean muscle as you get older is associated with longevity. So, um, you know, overall, as you get above 50, I like people to lean a little more into legumes. And to make room for that, not, not excluding them, but a little less into whole grains and potatoes and starches. And that allows them to sort of slightly bump up that protein intake. And, you know, I, I think you've had Volta Longo on here a couple of times. And he, he's also an advocate of that strategy, uh, to just bump that protein up a little bit

• 1:23:54Simon Hill?

  to actually help increase lifespan and, and health outcomes.

• 1:23:58Rich Roll?

  Right. So to play devil's advocate, what is your response to the statement that animal protein is just superior? Like, is there a foundation for that argument? Or what else goes into animal protein that would provide that person with some logical basis?

• 1:24:21Simon Hill?

  I think we have to define what is superior, right?

• 1:24:24Rich Roll?

  Right, well, let's do that.

• 1:24:26Simon Hill?

  If we were, if you were saying to me, building lean muscle, is it easier to build lean muscle with a diet full of animal products than plant-based products with less consideration and planning? Yes, it is. I mean, we have to be able to acknowledge that. That's not saying you can't get the same result. You can, but you have to plan a little more on the plant-based side of things. But my definition of superior is, I want to be fit, I want to build muscle, but at the same time, I want to consider my long-term health outcomes, and I want to consider longevity. And we have to, to understand that there's a trade-off here. You know, one of

• 1:25:09Simon Hill?

  the big differences is the ratio and concentration of particular amino acids between animal and plant foods. And, you know, while animal foods might be very rich in certain amino acids that activate mTOR, for example, and raise IGF-1 levels, and while that might be great for, for promoting growth, we understand through a lot of mechanistic research, and I will preface this by saying most of this is in animal models because it cannot be done in humans, at least not at this stage, we understand that over-activating those works against you in terms of your longevity.

• 1:25:52Simon Hill?

  You know, this is not a sort of simple answer or a simple question of what's superior. It's really what's meaningful to you. And personally, I made the decision that I want to be consuming foods that are allowing me to achieve my athletic endeavors, pursue those goals, but at the same time, you know, not over activate mTOR to the point that I'm putting myself at higher risk of certain diseases and potentially shortening my overall lifespan.

• 1:26:27Rich Roll?

  Right, so if you're 24 years old and all you care about is how you're going to perform in four months at the championships or what have you, and you don't care about anything else, all you want to do is ramp up that IGF-1 and get as much strength and growth as conceivable in a short period of time. But that's at the cost of longevity, long-term health, all these things that are important in terms of maintaining vitality, fitness, strength, all of those things over the extension of your lifetime.

• 1:27:01Simon Hill?

  And even as a kind of a plant-based person, you can still modulate your diet to promote muscle growth and strength. And I spoke to one of the studies that looked at comparing healthy young adults' omnivorous diet versus a vegan diet, and they matched that total protein intake at about 1.6, 1.7 grams per kilo, which is a high protein intake. And they saw no differences in lean muscle and strength.

• 1:27:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's a really important point to make.

• 1:27:38Simon Hill?

  So I think that there is a way to kind of have both. And so, you know, you can

• 1:27:48Simon Hill?

  Shift to a plant-based diet and then modify it in a way where you are getting the performance gains that you're looking for. And I still think you're better protected than the animal-based diet. Are you potentially making a trade-off compared to a slightly lower protein, plant-based diet? I think possibly, and that's based on those mechanistic animal studies. But back to your earlier point, people have different goals. And for some people, it will be meaningful to build muscle and to to build strength while adopting this dietary pattern that is overall better for their chronic disease, better for the planet, and better for the animals.

• 1:28:33Rich Roll?

  In addition, if we're going to contemplate like quote unquote gains, you also have to consider all of these other things like inflammation and you know, foods that you're eating that are going to allow your body to recover more quickly. And if you're eating a predominantly plant-based diet, chances are it's going to be more anti-inflammatory than an animal-based or animal-centric diet, which is going to allow your body to recover more quickly. So that has to go into that equation as well.

• 1:29:02Simon Hill?

  And I think there is something in that that we haven't yet determined from science, but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence from athletes toward the end of their careers who are shifting towards more plant-based. And really cool, and I wish I had details to share. And it'll sound like I'm obsessed with Stanford, but hey, they're doing great research.

• 1:29:23Rich Roll?

  I'm obsessed with Stanford. I'm biased, but.

• 1:29:26Simon Hill?

  They.

• 1:29:27Rich Roll?

  And I noticed you're wearing an SF hat, you know, so what did you, last time you were wearing an LA hat.

• 1:29:32Simon Hill?

  That's a funny story. One of your listeners sent me this hat.

• 1:29:36Rich Roll?

  Oh, really?

• 1:29:37Simon Hill?

  So I think they wanted me, they're from San Francisco, Patrick, actually. So thank you, Patrick.

• 1:29:46Simon Hill?

  I obviously wear the LA one too much. I love hats. But back to Stanford. Again, Professor Christopher Gardner and his group, they are about to run for the first time, and this is with athletes at Stanford. They didn't get access to the real high level athletes. The coaches didn't want them to be playing around with their diets. But they still got athletes from Stanford University, and they will be doing a randomized controlled trial of a completely plant-based versus an omnivorous diet, looking at strength and endurance over the long term.

• 1:30:20Rich Roll?

  Interesting. Interesting. Any of the swimmers doing that?

• 1:30:24Simon Hill?

  I don't know the details.

• 1:30:25Rich Roll?

  I might have to make a phone call or two.

• 1:30:26Simon Hill?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:27Rich Roll?

  I'd love to know more about that.

• 1:30:29Simon Hill?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:29Rich Roll?

  Super interesting.

• 1:30:38Rich Roll?

  Shifting gears a little bit. One of the things that we're cautioned against with respect to animal products, particularly processed meats, is nitrates, right? Nitrates, carcinogenic. But here we have greens that have nitrates. And those are good nitrates? What's going on?

• 1:31:00Simon Hill?

  Isn't that confusing?

• 1:31:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:31:04Simon Hill?

  So.

• 1:31:05Rich Roll?

  It's like bi-weekly. Does it mean once every two weeks or twice a week?

• 1:31:10Simon Hill?

  Yeah. I don't know. Don't test me on those kind of things. So I guess the first thing is that nitrates are a wonderful supplement. And we can go into that from a performance point of view. There's some good data on that. But from a food point of view, we have nitrates in ultra-processed meats, as you said. And then there's nitrates that are in dark leafy greens, beetroot and celery. And.

• 1:31:40Simon Hill?

  How can these, these, these molecules, the same molecule have a different effect on our physiology and our health outcomes? It has a lot to do with the food matrix and what those nitrates are packaged next to. So, we, we know that in ultra-processed foods, the nitrates, uh, they're often used as a preservative, that's why they're in like cured meats. We know that, uh, when you consume those, the pathway they go down is, uh, one that ends up, uh, resulting in the production of N-nitroso compounds. And a lot of that is, is thought to be due to the fact that they're packaged, the nitrates are packaged next to amines and heme iron, which is thought to be what preferentially

• 1:32:25Simon Hill?

  shoots them down this pathway. And these, the N-nitroso compounds can damage DNA in the gut and are thought to be probably carcinogenic. So that's that pathway. And then the nitrates in, uh, dark leafy greens and beetroot, these foods that are associated with great health outcomes and time and time again, we really see we should be leaning into more of. They're, they're packaged next to polyphenols and vitamin C. And it, it, the, the evidence so far shows that the, because of that, they're reduced from nitrates to nitrites and then nitrites to nitric oxide.

• 1:33:06Simon Hill?

  And we know that nitric oxide is very beneficial from a, an endothelial cell function, improving the function of your arteries, blood flow, driving down inflammation.

• 1:33:16Rich Roll?

  It's like an endurance booster.

• 1:33:17Simon Hill?

  Yeah. And that's why there's a whole lot of supplements out there via different pathways we can go into that boost nitric oxide, uh, nitrates being, uh, one of those. So the, the take-home point is that there is sort of two different, uh, pathways and, and the fate is determined by how, what is packaged next to that nitrate. There's an interesting study that, uh, I looked at, which, which dug into the oral microbiome. You know, our, the microbiome is, is not just in the colon, we have lots of bacteria in the oral cavity. And It does seem that first step I said there from dark leafy greens and beetroot,

• 1:34:01Simon Hill?

  where nitrates goes to nitrites, right? Which is absolutely required in order to get to nitric oxide. That first step starts in the mouth and

• 1:34:12Rich Roll?

  With the saliva?

• 1:34:13Simon Hill?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:13Rich Roll?

  With whatever's in the saliva.

• 1:34:15Simon Hill?

  So there's some bacteria on the dorsal side, the top side of the tongue, that seems to start that that reduction. And very interestingly, a set of researchers thought, well, what about if we if we give, we do a randomized controlled trial and have some subjects consume a mouthwash with an antimicrobial? And they they they saw that these subjects who were using the mouthwash, and it was over about, there's a few studies now, three day and a seven day, but quite quickly they saw that these subjects had less nitric oxide production and higher blood pressure. Um, I don't know whether we should read too much in into that,

• 1:34:58Simon Hill?

  but it's a it's an interesting fact, probably more so for someone with hypertension that is thinking about all of the different tools and levers they can pull to lower their blood pressure, which nitrates will do. But if you are using this mouthwash and it contained an antimicrobial called chlorohexidine, which is quite common, that might impair the conversion to nitric oxide.

• 1:35:22Rich Roll?

  It can't be a good idea to take an antimicrobial mouthwash and kill the microbiome that exists in your mouth.

• 1:35:33Simon Hill?

  I agree. It's kind of like taking antibiotics. Uh, I think we're just starting to learn about the importance of the oral microbiome. So yeah, I would agree. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. There might be a few dentists out there listening who who don't like to hear that. So I'm sure there's two sides to that conversation. But for what it's worth, that's what the study found.

• 1:35:55Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, obviously you don't want bad breath. And if you have an infection or something like that in your mouth, you want to clean that out, but You would want something that that was targeted as opposed to just destroying all the life forms that exist symbiotically in your mouth and perform a healthy function for you.

• 1:36:16Simon Hill?

  Yeah, I suspect that that's probably the answer here is that maybe these have some utility in certain circumstances, but maybe they're not just a kind of everyday thing that you want to be using all the time and really just killing off these microbes, many of which have very beneficial effects.

• 1:36:38Rich Roll?

  So nitrites, nitrous oxide, a good source of that is beets. Athletes know this.

• 1:36:44Simon Hill?

  Lettuce.

• 1:36:45Rich Roll?

  Lettuce also, dark leafy green. Well, that's not such a dark leafy green. Depends on what kind of lettuce, I suppose.

• 1:36:50Simon Hill?

  Lettuce has more nitrates than spinach. Very, very, I was surprised by that.

• 1:36:57Rich Roll?

  Like just your average iceberg lettuce?

• 1:37:00Simon Hill?

  It's a good question. I'd have to dig into the study and see. They just really said lettuce, but you're right, there are different types. So perhaps I can put that on my list of things to go and look at. But nonetheless, the dark leafy greens are really rich in nitrates. So is celery. Beetroot's are like the superstar and now you see.

• 1:37:20Rich Roll?

  Is that the is that the active ingredient in beetroot? Are there other things in beetroot that make it such an effective endurance booster?

• 1:37:28Simon Hill?

  That is certainly the the main active compound. And the reason why you're seeing athletes all across the world consume beetroot powder.

• 1:37:38Rich Roll?

  It's very effective.

• 1:37:39Simon Hill?

  Yes.

• 1:37:39Rich Roll?

  Like if I am going out for a long workout, I can feel the difference from when I put beets and beet greens into my smoothie beforehand versus when I don't. Like it's noticeable.

• 1:37:51Simon Hill?

  So the the science looking at this has shown that these nitrates in beetroot essentially reduce the amount of oxygen that your body requires to produce the same amount of work. So you're more efficient.

• 1:38:07Rich Roll?

  Which is like, it's like going from altitude down to sea level.

• 1:38:10Simon Hill?

  Yes. So you can do the same amount of muscular work for longer, or you can do increased muscular work for the same period of time. And this is one that, you know, I've recommended this to many athletes and across the board, everyone seems to have great results with it, but dosing is important and the timing are two very important things.

• 1:38:33Rich Roll?

  So talk about that. I don't know anything about that. I just dump a bunch of beets in my smoothie and go out the door.

• 1:38:39Simon Hill?

  Yeah. And you're probably doing it perfectly right. The timing, you could probably do a little better. It seems that maximum effect is about two, two and a half hours before your exercise.

• 1:38:52Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:38:53Simon Hill?

  Now, that can be challenging if you are someone who wakes up and exercises first thing. So it's obviously it needs to work in with how you're doing it, but, and what your schedule is, sorry. But that does, that does seem to be maximum effect, two and a half to three hours prior. And in terms of the dosage, so people will see, depending on the brand they're looking at, it, it could show up as millimoles or it could show up as grams. I'm going to speak in grams because it's a little bit more common and there is a conversion. So one millimole is 62 grams of nitrates, if you want to convert back.

• 1:39:33Simon Hill?

  But consistently, the science shows you need about 530 grams of nitrates to get maximum effect. There is some effect occurring at about 300. So there's this 300 to five, sort of 30 range, grams of nitrates with the, the best sort of ergogenic effect, performance enhancing benefit occurring at 530 grams. Once you go above that, it doesn't seem like there's any extra benefit. And I will say, the more aerobically fit the athlete, the smaller the benefit they get. So this, this is all about increasing your efficiency, but

• 1:40:15Simon Hill?

  if you're already a very efficient person, athlete, then the, the gains are a little bit lower.

• 1:40:22Rich Roll?

  Right. But the more elite and efficient you are. The, the less gains you need to differentiate yourself from everybody else, right? Like a 1% increase versus a 5% increase. When you're at the elite level, I mean, 1% is huge.

• 1:40:39Simon Hill?

  Sure. And also arguably, those are the people that should be focusing on this sort of stuff the most because they've got all the basic foundations right. And, you know, the basic foundations of dietary pattern and sleep and stuff are so much more important than what we're talking about here. These are, you know, kind of like the, the very, very top.

• 1:40:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's the cherry on the, the plant-based sundae.

• 1:41:03Simon Hill?

  Yeah. So, I mean, that's, that's kind of the, the current thinking in terms of.

• 1:41:09Rich Roll?

  So that, sorry to interrupt, but like that gram amount, 530, what did you say?

• 1:41:14Simon Hill?

  530 grams.

• 1:41:15Rich Roll?

  530. So, translate that into.

• 1:41:17Simon Hill?

  Sorry, 530 milligrams. Let me clarify.

• 1:41:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you said grams before.

• 1:41:21Simon Hill?

  Yeah, let me, let me clarify. One millimole is 62 milligrams.

• 1:41:27Rich Roll?

  Okay, that's a big difference.

• 1:41:28Simon Hill?

  Yeah, I want to really clarify that. And so you're, you're targeting 300 to 530 milligrams.

• 1:41:36Rich Roll?

  Okay, that's not very much. So how much would be in a typical beet?

• 1:41:39Simon Hill?

  So to hit that 530 milligrams, I've calculated at three and a half medium-sized beetroot.

• 1:41:48Rich Roll?

  Beetroot, that's an Australian thing. So that, when you say beetroot, that means the beet with the greens on top of it?

• 1:41:53Simon Hill?

  Just the beet.

• 1:41:54Rich Roll?

  Or just the beet?

• 1:41:54Simon Hill?

  Just the beet.

• 1:41:55Rich Roll?

  And what is the, like I always put, when I'm making a smoothie, I, I take the greens. You know, you go to the grocery store, they rip the greens off and they want to toss them away, but I, I love the greens and I put those in the smoothie as well.

• 1:42:06Simon Hill?

  So that's a good question. Yeah, they'll, they'll will contain nitrates as well.

• 1:42:10Rich Roll?

  But at a lesser density.

• 1:42:12Simon Hill?

  The, the study that I saw that looked at nitrate content was just looking at the beet.

• 1:42:16Rich Roll?

  Got it.

• 1:42:17Simon Hill?

  Which was, and, and I calculated you would need three and a half medium-sized beets to get to that 530.

• 1:42:24Rich Roll?

  That's a lot.

• 1:42:24Simon Hill?

  That's a lot. And that's probably why the powders have become so popular. And so you just need to find one that has, is supplying 530 milligrams and.

• 1:42:39Simon Hill?

  I think we should probably also make it clear here that with all of these supplements, nitrates included, if you're a professional athlete, you need to be working with your club dietitian. They will be considering what brands you can and cannot buy. Often you need to buy brands that have gone through specific testing and there has been issues where what's in, what the ingredient label says is in the product is not actually what's in there. So you kind of, if you're going to add these things into your regime and you're a professional athlete, sit down with the right people.

• 1:43:12Rich Roll?

  Is there any thoughts around usage in terms of cycling? Like, is this something that you could do every day? And it's just, like, if you're training really hard, should you use it daily? Or should you use it for a period of time, get off it, go back on it?

• 1:43:30Simon Hill?

  I'm not sure there is enough data to say what is the best option there. So far, the data is suggesting that it's completely safe to take that on a daily basis. But whether coming on and off is a more effective strategy and leads to greater efficiency long term, I don't think that's been teased out.

• 1:43:50Rich Roll?

  Right. Are there, I want to kind of slide into a conversation about supplements for athletes more broadly. But on the subject of beetroot and nitrates and nitrites, is there a supplement, like, why not go right directly to the nitrous oxide? Like, can you, can you, is there, is there a supplement where you could just, in capsule form, take nitrous oxide and achieve the effect that the beetroot active ingredient is producing?

• 1:44:22Simon Hill?

  I don't think it's that easy. From my read is if you, if you want to actually absorb it and, and increase nitric oxide levels in the body, you have to deliver one of the precursors. And that is either nitrates, or the other one that you will see is L-citrulline.

• 1:44:42Simon Hill?

  And L-citrulline is another supplement that will boost nitric oxide in the body. It does it by raising arginine levels, which then are converted via a completely different pathway to what we've spoken about. It's an endogenous pathway to nitric oxide. So as far as I'm aware, you need to provide a precursor and that has to be in the form of nitrates or L-citrulline. My preference of the two is nitrates because there's been more study on them.

• 1:45:11Rich Roll?

  Got it. I'm just gonna eat my beets.

• 1:45:15Simon Hill?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:16Rich Roll?

  Am I good with that?

• 1:45:17Simon Hill?

  That's, that's, that's what I do, for what it's worth.

• 1:45:20Rich Roll?

  Supplements for athletes. At the top of this pyramid, obviously, protein powders. So let's talk about that. Like, do we need to be taking protein powders? How much? Is this advisable? When should we take it? And which types of plant protein extracts are optimal? And there's a lot in that question.

• 1:45:43Simon Hill?

  There's a lot there. It's going to be context dependent. I will say, I think most athletes, certainly that I've worked with or have spoken to, find a protein powder a very convenient way to, to get 30 grams of, of protein in. And it's also a little less filling than always eating legumes. So I think it certainly has utility. But I will say that you can still build muscle and perform very well without it.

• 1:46:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I had Robert Cheek in here and he was talking about his history with this going from, and mine is similar, like having a pantry full of all kinds of powders, then thinking, like, is this doing anything? And weaning himself off of it and realizing that without any of it, he was making gains that he wasn't capable of prior. And his point being like, maybe they have use, but they shouldn't come at the cost of sourcing your nutrients from whole foods. And if you're meeting those needs, is there any advantage at all to even doing this in the first place? The powders.

• 1:46:48Simon Hill?

  So the advantage can be if you're trying to lower your total caloric intake, for example, then it's a very concentrated source of protein for a small amount of calories.

• 1:47:01Simon Hill?

  So depending on the type of athlete, that might be something that they're trying to do. And therefore it has good utility.

• 1:47:08Rich Roll?

  That makes sense.

• 1:47:09Simon Hill?

  You know, I I'm a minimalist, relative minimalist when it comes to supplements, but I do have a protein powder and I usually throw a scoop or so into a smoothie that I have every day. My recommendation for trying to choose one, because there's so many on the market, is firstly, 25 to 30 grams of protein in a serve as a minimum. Sometimes you see some coming out now and they're diluted down to 15, 16 grams. You you need 25, 30 grams as a minimum to maximize muscle protein synthesis, if that's your goal. Secondly is, I like to look for one that has the amino acid profile.

• 1:47:53Simon Hill?

  And this goes back to our trade off we were talking about before. Because if you're an athlete and you're you are looking to to to boost your performance, then leucine is important. And you can find one that has two to three grams of leucine per serve. And you know that that's going to be a very anabolic protein. So firstly, does it have enough protein per serve? Secondly, looking at the leucine content. Over and beyond that, I usually tell people to find one that they enjoy. They like the brand ethos, it tastes good. And they're kind of the two most important things I'm looking at from a performance point of view. There are a lot of different blends and different types.

• 1:48:35Simon Hill?

  You've got potato protein is now starting to surface, pumpkin. You've got brown rice, you've got pea protein, you've got mung bean, fava. There's a whole lot coming out.

• 1:48:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we have ham, such a inchi, chia, I'm seeing now sunflower, all different kinds. So yeah, I mean, my obvious question is, which one of those has the best profile for athletic performance? Or which one of those has a better leucine profile?

• 1:49:04Simon Hill?

  Typically speaking. The pea protein, brown rice protein blend is like the plant-based whey protein.

• 1:49:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's the most common that you see.

• 1:49:16Simon Hill?

  It's the most common and it is for a reason in that when you put those two together, you get a very similar amino acid profile to whey protein. So without over complicating things, that's a great worthy option for anyone. With that said, if you stick to the first two principles that I said of 25 to 30 grams, two to three grams of leucine, then I'm not so concerned really what that blend is. It could be four or five of those and I'm more interested at that point in what someone likes in terms of palatability and therefore they're going to be happy with including it into their diet every day.

• 1:49:56Rich Roll?

  There's got to be differences in absorption as well, whey versus these plant alternatives and then amongst the different varieties of plant proteins in terms of how well the body can uptake these nutrients.

• 1:50:11Simon Hill?

  Yeah, you would be surprised when you isolate the plant protein in any of these forms, the absorption becomes almost comparable with whey. And we're talking up into the 90% absorptions in these isolated plant forms. That's one of the big benefits of these. They are very bioavailable and the difference is probably only a couple of percent between them and whey. And there are a bunch of randomized controlled trials where they've compared whey with brown rice and with pea and looked at athletes doing resistance training and found no difference between the two arms where one arm was supplementing with whey and one arm was supplementing with the plant protein.

• 1:50:53Simon Hill?

  So I wouldn't be concerned about the bioavailability of them and you know, the protein researchers that are not, they're not plant-based, these guys are omnivorous, they all tend to agree now that as long as the protein serve is right, is ticking the box and leucine is at two or three grams, then there is no difference between the two.

• 1:51:19Rich Roll?

  That's a huge shift from not that long ago.

• 1:51:24Simon Hill?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:25Rich Roll?

  In terms of, you know, what the scientific community is saying.

• 1:51:29Simon Hill?

  Yeah, there were some ideas that you would need to consume much more plant protein to get the same effect. And, you know, that's largely now been debunked by two or three different studies, as I say, that have looked at these isolated forms. As long as the leucine is matched, you know, I will say, that seems to be why whey protein in particular is good, is that it's high in leucine. So as long as that plant-based protein powder is meeting that two to three gram threshold, then you can be comfortable you are not sacrificing anything.

• 1:52:10Rich Roll?

  One question I've always had is, given that what we're trying to do is ensure that we're getting those nine essential amino acids, and when we eat foods, we break down those proteins into their respective amino acid components, instead of a protein powder supplement, why not take a supplement of aminos or branched-chain amino acids so that you're bypassing that step of breaking them down and creating perhaps an even more absorbable form of the building blocks of protein? Like, is that an ignorant statement, or how does that work?

• 1:52:49Simon Hill?

  It makes logical sense, but remember, these proteins also contain non-essential amino acids, and non-essential amino acids are important for muscle protein synthesis. And so your body is making those, but when you're wanting to build a lot of lean muscle, having more of those is helpful. So if you were just taking the BCAA supplement or an essential amino acid supplement, you're missing out on all of those non-essentials. So that's probably the first point that I would make there. And I think largely, particularly the BCAAs, right, is when you're just taking the BCAAs...

• 1:53:35Simon Hill?

  You're not, you're not getting any benefit at all over and above a protein powder. So my advice to people is that you could, you could add the BCAAs. But for the same price, you could add a good protein powder, which is providing all of those other non-essential and essential amino acids that are still critical for building muscle. It's not as though just leucine and valine, for example, which are often too that people talk about are the only ones that matter. All of them matter. And so providing your body with a good mix of all of them is, is sort of generally the school of thought and the recommendation for the best result.

• 1:54:16Rich Roll?

  Interesting. So don't waste your money on.

• 1:54:18Simon Hill?

  I wouldn't waste your money on BCAAs or isolated amino acids. I would stick to just finding a protein powder that provides all of the nine plus non-essential amino acids in varying amounts. And it's going to be much more cost effective too.

• 1:54:35Rich Roll?

  Conventional wisdom for a long time was that there's this special window post-workout, about 30 minutes, in which you should replenish your body with protein and other certain nutrients, electrolytes, et cetera, to optimize the reparative cycle. Is that still the case? Has science pivoted in terms of how we're thinking about that?

• 1:55:00Simon Hill?

  I think there's something in timing for sure and how much protein you're having in each meal. But I think that, that if we were to sort of prioritize things, first it's, it's, at first it's exercise and, and the stimulus. And then it's your overall diet and then it's total protein. And then underneath that, it's the timing of the meals and how much protein you're having in each meal. So I don't want to kind of get carried away on this because it's, it's less important. But if you're really fine tuning, this is where this stuff gets more important. And the, the current evidence suggests that firstly, instead of having, say you have 120

• 1:55:39Simon Hill?

  grams of protein in a day, instead of having all of that in one meal, from a muscle protein synthesis point of view, and from a strength point of view, recovery point of view, it seems that you're much better breaking that down into three or four meals. Breaking it down, not to the point where you have less than 30 grams of protein in a meal,

• 1:56:03Simon Hill?

  but splitting it out over multiple meals throughout the day. And the reason for this is that each time you have a meal, you can spike muscle protein synthesis with, if your meal is rich in protein and leucine. But it has a ceiling. So if you have 120 grams at one point in the day, you'll spike it, it'll hit that ceiling, and then you get nothing else for the rest of the day. Whereas when you-

• 1:56:29Rich Roll?

  So that additional protein gets metabolized in some other way?

• 1:56:33Simon Hill?

  And it's still going to be used for the body.

• 1:56:36Rich Roll?

  Anabolic effect.

• 1:56:36Simon Hill?

  Yeah, but it's not going to have the anabolic effect and result in as much growth, muscle growth and strength improvement. Compared to when you divvy it out, 30 grams, and then three hours later, another meal with 30 grams of protein, and then three hours later, and then maybe it's three or four meals across the day, you get multiple spikes of muscle protein synthesis, and overall, a greater net effect of muscle protein synthesis in that 24-hour period.

• 1:57:09Rich Roll?

  I want to get into intermittent fasting and all of that, but I don't want to go too deep into that right now. I want to stick on what we're talking about. But I do have a question that is perhaps pertinent, which is, is there some kind of positive adaptation that can be had for a periodic sort of fasted workout, fasted state, where let's say, one day a week, you do a hard workout, and you don't eat until, you know, many, many hours later. You're kind of putting your body into a, you know, a stress situation that creates a certain adaptation. That is something you don't want to do every day, but is there

• 1:57:53Rich Roll?

  a benefit to experimenting with that?

• 1:57:56Simon Hill?

  I think it's plausible from a hormesis point of view and David Sinclair talks about this and perhaps that's a way of activating these disease resistance pathways. But anyone who's involved in the protein research and lean muscle will tell you not to do that because it's probably a good way to go into a sort of catabolic state. And if you're trying to preserve muscle and you're an athlete, then I don't think that's going to be the strategy you're going to want to pursue. You're better off consuming meals regularly throughout the day.

• 1:58:32Rich Roll?

  Hmm. It's interesting. I mean, from an endurance athlete perspective and not being a scientist, like I have played around with this and I've had an experience where it's sort of like, okay, my body knows that it can do this hard workout and not be fed for a very long time. So in the future, when I find myself in a situation of semi depletion, I feel like I can push past that. And maybe that's just a mental barrier that an experience like that allows me to believe that I can do a little bit more on less. But I have to believe there's some sort of biological component to that.

• 1:59:11Simon Hill?

  It would be an interesting study to do, to take some endurance athletes and change, adjust their meal timings throughout the day and measure some meaningful biomarkers. But yeah, it's certainly not out of the question that there is some adaptation and some benefit to doing that. Again, I think it comes back though to what someone's goals are. And I think if you were sort of erring on the side of caution of preserving lean muscle mass, definitely the research shows that you don't want to be in a fasted state for too long.

• 1:59:45Rich Roll?

  You start catabolizing your own muscle tissue, which is not good.

• 1:59:52Rich Roll?

  Unless you're trying to get super lean.

• 1:59:54Simon Hill?

  Yeah, and look, if you're trying to get super lean.

• 1:59:58Rich Roll?

  But that's not a very healthy way of doing it.

• 1:59:59Simon Hill?

  It's not that healthy. And, and I mean, judging someone's health by the outside is kind of fraught with danger, especially if you're looking at lean muscle. We know this, right? You only have to look at bodybuilders and their life expectancy is not, not amazing. That could be many things going on there, including anabolic steroids.

• 2:00:20Rich Roll?

  Might have something to do with it.

• 2:00:21Simon Hill?

  Yeah. But point being is that it's, you know, it's this entire conversation around preserving lean muscle mass and maximizing strength. I do think at the core of it is a trade off. I believe that's where the research points to. The more we want to squeeze out of, of growth and increasing our strength, I think we are potentially sacrificing long term health.

• 2:00:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Back to the subject of supplements for athletes. I mean, and just to say it out loud, you know, I'm not somebody who's taking a crazy number of supplements. I believe in responsible supplementation, but I always kind of err on the lesser side. Like there's very few things that I take with any regularity. But this is an interesting conversation. So aside from protein powders, what are some of the other things that athletes might benefit from? And particularly plant based athletes?

• 2:01:23Simon Hill?

  We spoke about nitrates and L citrulline. The other, I guess, two that we could talk about are, or three, there's beta alanine.

• 2:01:35Rich Roll?

  I never hear about this.

• 2:01:37Simon Hill?

  So there's beta alanine, creatine and caffeine, before I forget, those, those three, along with nitrates. So consistently, in all of the consensus position papers, looking at the best science, they're the ones that surface as having the most ergogenic effect.

• 2:01:55Rich Roll?

  Well, let's start with beta alanine.

• 2:01:57Simon Hill?

  Sure. So beta alanine, alanine or alanine is.

• 2:02:02Simon Hill?

  Anyone who's taken this, or some people that have taken this, will have experienced some paresthesia. You get, you can get tingles in your, in your fingers.

• 2:02:13Rich Roll?

  Like, like when you overdose on niacin?

• 2:02:16Simon Hill?

  Yeah. And there's a trick, remind me, I'll come back to that when we talk about dosage, to try and avoid that. But in short, you know, what is beta alanine doing? It seems to be most effective, short bursts of high intensive exercise. We're talking up to 25, 30 minutes. The research hasn't really gone beyond that. And at a mechanism point of view, beta alanine increases carnecine. And carnecine essentially is like, it's a, it's an antioxidant. You can think of it, of the way I like to think about carnecine is it's sort of mopping up all of the free radicals we produce while we're exercising, cleaning them out, and helps reduce fatigue.

• 2:02:58Simon Hill?

  So you can perform at higher power for longer. And we see, you know, quite significant improvements in power and strength with better, better alanine supplementation. It's the typical dose. And again, I'll put this into a document for you, but high level, it's about four to six, um, this one is grams, four to six grams, uh, per day. And the, the timing of this one is interesting. For a long time, I've thought that you have to supplement this right before you work out. That's, that's kind of been disproven. And you can now spread the supplementation out or take it whenever. The most important thing is that you're just saturating your

• 2:03:38Simon Hill?

  cells with it, similar to what happens with creatine, so that your baseline levels of carnecine go up. So four to six grams, and you could take that in one dose, but that is where quite a lot of people get this tingling. It's, it's like a hot rush, itchy, it's uncomfortable. And you know, it's often put into those like hardcore pre workouts. That's the ingredient that's doing that.

• 2:04:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:05Simon Hill?

  So the strategy there.

• 2:04:07Rich Roll?

  Like the crazy stuff at GNC that comes in like a bright red can or can of plastic tub or something.

• 2:04:15Simon Hill?

  Yeah, and now you have a whole lot of things in there. I am not a big advocate of those. I think you're better off trying some of these targeted ones where it's a single ingredient or like two or three ingredients and seeing.

• 2:04:28Rich Roll?

  Does it come in like a capsule form?

• 2:04:30Simon Hill?

  You can get capsule or you can get a powder. Usually it's a flavored raspberry or lemon or something. And if you want to avoid that parasthesia, because you don't have to take this as one single bolus before you work out, you split. So it could be two or three serves throughout the day. And then usually there's that removes that side effect. So that's better alanine. That's one for for people to consider.

• 2:04:56Simon Hill?

  Creatine is the the kind of obvious one.

• 2:04:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, I mean, most people have heard of that. It's sort of, you know, typical amongst the bodybuilding crowd. What's interesting about creatine, I mean, first of all, it's very effective. So I want to understand better why that is. But in recent years, very recently, there seems to be some studies coming out about the impact of creatine on depression. It's sort of this mood elevator and perhaps has a positive impact on cognition, which is super interesting.

• 2:05:30Simon Hill?

  Yeah, the brain health side of things. And it seems that it's it's creatine is depleted often in people with schizophrenia or depression. So it does have a role beyond muscle. And I think that's been underappreciated, certainly for a long time. And maybe we start on the cognition piece and then we go into the performance.

• 2:05:55Simon Hill?

  There has been, it's very limited science looking at creatine and brain health. That's the first thing I want to say. It's very early days emerging. At the moment, the current state of the literature is that protocols have not yet been identified. It's too preliminary for that. They've identified, which is very interesting, that creatine, our neurons actually produce creatine and the creatine in our brain is separate to the creatine in the body for the most part. So there is also a lot of question marks over whether you just supplement orally and does that increase the creatine levels in the brain?

• 2:06:34Rich Roll?

  Does it pass the blood-brain barrier?

• 2:06:36Simon Hill?

  And it may be that if you have depression or you have a condition that affects the blood-brain barrier, it does cross, or that it only crosses if you have depleted levels in the brain. And that is a very ongoing area of research. So I think it's a watch this space. There could be some utility there. There's something going on. There have been talks of vegetarians in particular, perhaps benefiting from creatine supplementation from a cognitive point of view. And the theory there is that, well, animal products do contain a little bit of creatine. Your body, it's not an essential compound. Your body does make it. But there is some advantages, at least from a performance

• 2:07:19Simon Hill?

  point of view, to have a bit more in your body over and above what it makes. And animal products do contain a little bit of creatine, not enough to fully saturate the body with creatine unless you're going to have two kilograms of meat or something. But there has been this school of thought that because there is some creatine coming in through animal products, perhaps vegetarians could benefit from creatine supplementation from a cognitive point of view. And there's two studies that have come out that I think are interesting to talk about here because I do think this is a little bit misunderstood. The first is, and I think the most important is, they have done neuroimaging and scanned

• 2:08:01Simon Hill?

  the brains of vegetarians and omnivores, and they've been able to see that the creatine levels in the brain are exactly the same. Which is really, really interesting. And that probably is back to what I said earlier, that our neurons are actually synthesizing creatine, separate to the rest of the body. So that's, that's different to what we see in muscles. In muscle tissue, you see vegetarians have less creatine than omnivores. And which is one of the main reasons why vegetarians potentially have a better performance effect from creatine supplementation. There's a study that came out, 2010, by a researcher called Benton. And this is the, the kind of study that everyone cites,

• 2:08:44Simon Hill?

  looking at cognition between vegetarians and omnivores with creatine supplementation. So it was a randomized controlled trial placebo. And what they showed is there was a significant difference in cognition between the vegetarians and the omnivores that were supplementing with creatine. But this study is misinterpreted. So let me run through.

• 2:09:13Rich Roll?

  So this is the study that gets thrown around on social media to establish that vegetarians have some kind of brain problem.

• 2:09:19Simon Hill?

  Yeah. So let me just walk through exactly how they did the study. And we can just think about the findings here. So baseline, they tested the cognition of the omnivores and the vegetarians. This was before supplementation. And this test, this was a recall test. So you're going to hear 30 different words. And then you've got two minutes to write them down, as many as you can. That was the cognitive domain. It's a memory test. At baseline, there was no difference between the two groups. So the vegetarians and the omnivores performed exactly the same. Then they did creatine supplementation.

• 2:10:01Simon Hill?

  And this was a higher dose creatine protocol than what you would do for performance. It was 20 grams a day over about a week period. And they performed a test again.

• 2:10:14Simon Hill?

  And in that test, the vegetarians performed as they did at baseline, but the omnivores performed really poorly. So there was a significant difference between the two groups, but it wasn't driven by the vegetarians performing poorly. It was driven by the omnivores performing poorly.

• 2:10:35Rich Roll?

  So something about the creatine supplementation decreased the omnivores cognition?

• 2:10:43Simon Hill?

  Perhaps. It was a very surprising finding. And I think it's being misinterpreted as, you know, there's a vegetarians are deplete in creatine. And when you add it to their diet, their cognition improves. That's not what the study showed. Their baseline and their retest was exactly the same. For some reason, the omnivores' performance dropped off. And that's what created the significant difference. So that's the Benton 2010 study. And Hamilton Rochelle, who's a big researcher in this space, he just published a review called Creatine and Brain Health. It's fantastic for anyone to read about all of this.

• 2:11:25Simon Hill?

  And he essentially speaks about the misinterpretations of that study. Talks about the fact that vegetarians and omnivores have the same levels of creatine in their brains on scans. And finishes by saying, we need further research because for now, we can't see a significant reason for vegetarians to be supplementing with creatine for brain health.

• 2:11:51Rich Roll?

  That's fascinating. So how does it get perverted and turned into this narrative that gets thrown around?

• 2:11:57Simon Hill?

  I'm not sure it's intentional. I'm not sure it's intentional. I think that if you sort of just look at one side of the study and you disregard the baseline and you just look at the two bars on this graph, you see the vegetarians performing really well compared to the omnivores. So I think it's just a misinterpretation of the data more than anything. But You know, it, it, what it, what it does say is there's no reason to be alarmed that if you're a vegetarian or a vegan and you're not supplementing with creatine, that you're going to have a cognitive deficit. The science does not show that. And while there will be

• 2:12:40Simon Hill?

  more science done, you know, I think down the track, if they work out a way to increase creatine levels in the brain for certain conditions, whether it's schizophrenia or depression, I think omnivores and vegetarians will likely benefit in a similar manner.

• 2:12:57Rich Roll?

  Have they done studies on depression specifically? Because you, you spoke about cognition, but depression is an altogether different.

• 2:13:05Simon Hill?

  I haven't seen any of, of the data in terms of, of supplementing people with depression with creatine and seeing outcomes. I can look into that, but what I've seen is that people with depression often have lower levels of creatine. And I believe certainly the conclusion of Hamilton Rochelle's paper was that we need far more information and even for conditions like depression and schizophrenia, there is, there's no science to date that gives us very clear confidence to recommend a certain protocol of supplementation for these people.

• 2:13:44Rich Roll?

  Got it. So in the context of athletic performance, there's some anabolic effect to creatine. So walk me, help, help me and everybody understand what that is.

• 2:13:59Simon Hill?

  I guess, put simply, our body uses glucose or carbohydrates into glucose that enters our cells. People will have heard of the mitochondria. And this is like the energy factory. And through a whole sort of complex set of biological reactions, we, we turn this glucose into ATP. And creatine allows you to produce more ATP. And that is allowing you then to increase your power and your strength. And the benefit of that is that you can increase your training volume and then therefore get greater adaptations.

• 2:14:39Rich Roll?

  So it's not a situation in which it just grows your muscle. It just allows you to push harder, go longer, and then as a result of that, get stronger, faster, et cetera.

• 2:14:51Simon Hill?

  For the most part, you will get a little bit of a filling out with the water retention. That can kind of make you feel a bit fuller.

• 2:14:58Rich Roll?

  Puffy.

• 2:14:59Simon Hill?

  Yeah, and some people like that look and others don't. And, you know, I've definitely, the feedback I've had from some endurance athletes is they don't like that. And they think it works against their performance, carrying that extra sort of water retention. But by and large, it is just allowing you to do more work. You get a greater stimulus and then therefore greater adaptations. And it's one of the safest, most studied ingredients. Safety up to, you know, thirty, thirty plus grams per day with no side effects other than some gastrointestinal upset in certain individuals. So something to be aware of, but it's not that common.

• 2:15:44Simon Hill?

  Certainly not as common as sodium bicarbonate, which is another supplement that I really don't recommend because it causes a lot of gastrointestinal upset, even though it is quite ergogenic. But creatine seems to not affect that many people in that way. And the dosing has, the recommendations have changed over the years. It used to be thought you need to have a high dose, twenty grams a day for about a week. That will saturate your cells and then you can drop to a maintenance dose of five grams per day. That still is an option. The, it's now also been shown that if you just jump straight to five grams a day, by four weeks in, you will have saturated your cells. So you can, you know, choose your own adventure there.

• 2:16:29Rich Roll?

  Interesting. I mean, I, I would think that much like a bodybuilder has a bulk phase and a lean phase, that an endurance athlete could benefit from this by using it during heavy training periods or training camps to. Get the adaption, you know, adaptation effects, but then cycle off of it where they can lean out and lose some of that, you know, water retention that creates unnecessary, you know, a weight drain where power to weight is so important in that's in those sports.

• 2:17:03Simon Hill?

  Yeah, I think that makes sense. And that's probably also what bodybuilders do. And when they're trying to lean out, they jump off of it. So, uh, you know, certainly there's nothing wrong with using it like that and a sort of cycling, um, cycle on off fashion.

• 2:17:17Rich Roll?

  Right. And it does seem like it's safe. I mean, is it, how do they manufacture it? What is it comprised of?

• 2:17:24Simon Hill?

  That's a great question.

• 2:17:25Rich Roll?

  I always wondered, I always assumed it wasn't a vegan product.

• 2:17:29Simon Hill?

  No.

• 2:17:29Rich Roll?

  Because you associate creatine with.

• 2:17:31Simon Hill?

  Yeah, you certainly can get vegan creatine, uh, 100%. And the more and more now you're seeing brands that are, uh, selling, uh, vegan creatine will have that on the label. So I know that's certain, certainly possible. Uh, it's probably, it's synthetic. So it's probably made in a laboratory.

• 2:17:51Rich Roll?

  Right. But relatively, but basically on the safer side of supplements that you're going to take.

• 2:17:56Simon Hill?

  Definitely. The, I mean, in all of the different consensus positions, it is, it is considered the most studied and the safest of all of these various supplements that we're talking about.

• 2:18:10Rich Roll?

  The final supplement, it's not really a supplement. I mean, you have coffee, right?

• 2:18:15Simon Hill?

  Like caffeine.

• 2:18:16Rich Roll?

  We all know that that is an athletic performance enhancer. I've had such a, you know, I've been off caffeine, I go back and then I'm like, I'm training and it's like, well, if I drink a cup of coffee before this workout, I know I'm going to have a better workout.

• 2:18:29Simon Hill?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:30Rich Roll?

  And then suddenly I'm back on coffee.

• 2:18:33Simon Hill?

  Yeah. You know, you can, some people have a love hate relationship with it. Some people do really poorly on caffeine, which we should know where they feel anxious and,

• 2:18:43Simon Hill?

  You know, they're certainly someone that I wouldn't recommend supplementing with caffeine or loading up on the coffee. Other people are severely, their sleep is severely disturbed.

• 2:18:53Rich Roll?

  So. Yeah, Matthew Walker talks about that. Like even, you know, one cup of coffee at eight o'clock in the morning has an impact on your ability to get a restful night's sleep that evening.

• 2:19:02Simon Hill?

  Exactly. And the really interesting thing is there's a genetic component to that. So how quickly your body metabolizes caffeine is highly variable. So you do hear some people say, oh, I can have a coffee, you know, midday, one o'clock, two o'clock, and I'm fine. And others, they just cannot sleep.

• 2:19:20Rich Roll?

  It's also an age thing, too. Like, when I was 24, I could probably drink a cup of coffee after dinner and fall asleep fine. And now if I did that, I would be, there's no way I would sleep.

• 2:19:31Simon Hill?

  Yeah, me, I don't think I could sleep with a coffee after midday. And the research looking at this seems to suggest there's a few different mechanisms happening, but one is it makes you sort of hypervigilant, more alert. But very interestingly, it seems to lower your perceived level of exertion. So you don't feel as if you're working as hard, which, you know, often we put a limit on what we can do just through what we think, not physically what we can achieve. And perhaps it allows us to tap into more of our physical capability. That's one of the ideas. And from a performance, ergogenic point of view,

• 2:20:14Simon Hill?

  the research really zooms in and narrows in on this three to six milligram per kilogram of body weight dose as being the sort of clinically effective dose. And when you ramp up and you go above nine milligrams per kilogram, there doesn't seem to be any extra benefit. And that's where you start to see more of these side effects like anxiety, gastrointestinal upset affecting sleep. So something to be mindful of there. So.

• 2:20:44Simon Hill?

  You know, for for someone who is, let's say, seventy kilograms and you can convert all this to pounds.

• 2:20:51Rich Roll?

  I don't know how much. I have no idea what that means.

• 2:20:53Simon Hill?

  I think I think roughly, and I don't have a calculator here, but we're talking sort of one hundred and fifty pounds. Okay, for someone of that size, if if we were to take six milligrams, we're looking at a dose of four hundred and twenty milligrams of caffeine, which really is not going to be achieved through coffee unless you have a whole lot of coffee. You know, one shot is usually, one shot of coffee is about sixty milligrams. So to get up to that three, four hundred odd milligrams to sort of get maximum uh performance effect, you you need to look to the the supplement supplements that have caffeine in their formulas.

• 2:21:38Simon Hill?

  Uh, that's not saying, though, that at the lower end of the range, three milligrams per kilogram, you're still getting a benefit as well. So I I think that's one usually that people need to play around with and find what is most comfortable and uh, you know, work from there.

• 2:21:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, too much and you're toast.

• 2:21:57Simon Hill?

  Yeah, I don't think I would cope very well, to be honest, at the high dose of, you know, at that sort of four, four fifty milligram dose of caffeine. I perform much better, you know, at about half of that.

• 2:22:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but on the adage of energy can neither be created nor destroyed, like you're you're essentially borrowing energy, right? You're creating a debt that you're gonna have to repay. So how hefty is that debt repayment? Like, are you? If if if it's all about like, I need to have the best performance possible on this particular day, and that's your priority, then, you know, caffeine can certainly help produce that uh result. But if you're trying to perform day in, day out in a heavy training period, you're you're gonna run into some kind of drain situation that perhaps is gonna undermine the greater goal that you're seeking.

• 2:22:54Simon Hill?

  Definitely if it's affecting your sleep and you're not, you're not nourishing your body to supply the nutrients and calories that you need through being able to have achieved greater output. I think, you know, certainly that's the case. I would say overall, like if we'd thought about coffee for a moment here, instead of just caffeine, again, you know, it's not for everyone, you know, certain people do not do well on coffee. But overall, the research looking at coffee and cardiovascular disease and neurodegenerative disease is quite positive. And, you know, just like tea, three to sort of five cups a day is

• 2:23:36Simon Hill?

  associated with better health outcomes. And there are a number of mechanisms that help explain that, one of which being polyphenols. So, you know, I think there's a place for this within a program.

• 2:23:50Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:23:51Simon Hill?

  But we need to be cognizant of the fact that, you know, it can really affect your cortisol levels, your stress can affect your sleep. So you need to find that happy balance where you're getting the performance outcome that you're looking for, and also the recovery and downtime that you're looking for.

• 2:24:11Rich Roll?

  What are some of the common supplements that you see people taking where you think like, well, this is garbage. Like, why are people doing that?

• 2:24:23Simon Hill?

  Well, that's usually what I say about branched-chain amino acids.

• 2:24:26Rich Roll?

  Right. So we talked about that. Are there others that fall into that category? I mean, what about MCT oil in the coffee, right? That's a big one. Is there a benefit to that? I mean, certainly it's a lot of calories. But in that vein of practices or things that are popular at the moment right now that you see people doing, particularly kind of in the fitness world, that you would like to disabuse people?

• 2:24:52Simon Hill?

  I mean, anything sort of outside of creatine, L-citrulline, beta alanine, caffeine, and nitrates. Is is it's just worth noting that there's very limited evidence. Those are considered the five ergogenic supplements with good grounded evidence. They've been tested for for both ergogenic effect and also for safety. So anything beyond there, look, it doesn't mean that they don't work. It just means that there's not a not a whole lot of data to sort of make a decision. And therefore you are running a sort of trial and error approach. So you have to be able to justify the cost. And, you know, like MCTs, there are people that swear by them.

• 2:25:35Simon Hill?

  And, you know, they MCTs don't raise cholesterol. So I don't, I don't have a problem with people using MCT oil. If they think they're getting a benefit out of it, then, you know, I've certainly got no, no judgment on that. I guess I just want to reiterate that there's probably not a lot of data on on many of those things.

• 2:26:00Rich Roll?

  Hmm. A close cousin to supplementation is quote unquote, superfoods. I don't want to go too deep down a rabbit hole here. We're tiptoeing into Darren O'Leary territory a little bit, our mutual friend. This is his, this is his backyard.

• 2:26:19Rich Roll?

  But perhaps we could spend a minute or two, like if you had to pick like the top performing, like these are expensive. Right. Are we really going to go and buy all this stuff? Like, where's our money best spent? So if you had to choose, what are the kind of top performers that might make their way into your routine? Like, we've got chia seeds, like I'm, I like, like, mine would be chia seeds, spirulina, moringa and maca powder.

• 2:26:48Simon Hill?

  Yeah. So you, I mean, I have most of those on rotation. I think the chia and the flax are great for particularly for plant based eaters. They're really rich in the omega threes.

• 2:27:00Rich Roll?

  I mean, I would put hemp seeds in there.

• 2:27:01Simon Hill?

  Hemp seeds as well. So we could say chia seeds, hemp seeds, flax, they'd be right up the top. Then you do have.

• 2:27:07Rich Roll?

  Flax need to be ground though, right? Otherwise you're not going to. Be able to absorb them.

• 2:27:12Simon Hill?

  Yes.

• 2:27:12Rich Roll?

  Just pass right through.

• 2:27:13Simon Hill?

  And chia seeds really should be soaked or ground as well for the same reason. So that's something to be mindful of. The other one that I use a lot is chlorella. I mentioned it before, it's loaded in iron. So that's another kind of green powder that you can throw in. But I tend to not have too many more than that. And focus more on just consistently getting lots of color through the fruits and vegetables. And then basing my diet around those and whole grains, legumes, nuts and seeds. But I certainly will have some of those on hand and throw them into my smoothies.

• 2:27:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The one final thing that I would add is cordyceps, particularly if you're an endurance athlete. Because much like beetroot, that's the one thing that beetroot and cordyceps are the two where I actually feel, I can feel a noticeable difference.

• 2:28:10Simon Hill?

  Yeah, I've heard that. I haven't used cordyceps myself, but I have heard that. I've used lion's mane and anecdotally speaking, I feel like my cognition is better, focus is better with that. I also do like some of the mushroom powders, like reishi powder.

• 2:28:27Rich Roll?

  Reishi, chaga.

• 2:28:28Simon Hill?

  Yeah, some of these powders are very rich in prebiotics. And there is some data showing prebiotic effect of reishi and improving microbiome composition. So some of those are neat and emerging.

• 2:28:42Rich Roll?

  Right. All right, moving on. We talked about plant-based milks earlier. It used to be you'd go to the grocery store, maybe there was rice milk. If you were lucky, there was soy milk. Now there's just a proliferation of every imaginable non-dairy alternative. We've got oat, we've got soy, rice, coconut, almond. Which ones are best? What should we be looking for? What should we be looking to avoid? Like, how do you think about this? Or do you just make it at home yourself?

• 2:29:16Simon Hill?

  Look, I don't tend to make it all at home myself. I have done it, but uh I you can fortify, you can add calcium, for example, at home with a red algae powder and you can so make your own almond milk and then add the calcium in afterwards, which is something that I know quite a few people will do, but it requires a fair bit of effort. So the store bought ones, there are a few reasons why I think they're good. One is that um I do think the calcium fortification is important. And we have to think about someone's overall diet. So if if someone is looking to their their milk as a source of protein, and let's

• 2:29:57Simon Hill?

  say it's providing a very important source of protein to that person's overall diet, then when they make the swap to a plant based milk, they want to opt for one that is equivalent in protein. And the obvious one is soy milk, but now there are other alternatives that are popping up like pea milk, for example, where both of those will have that sort of eight grams of protein per serve, which is on par with the dairy milk. So you have to know your overall dietary pattern and what the purpose of adding this into your diet is. If it's just being added to a coffee each day in a very small amount, then that's a different conversation because that that person's going to want to look at it more

• 2:30:39Simon Hill?

  from a flavor and experience point of view. But broadly speaking, I like to get people to look for something that is as close to dairy milk from a like for like sort of perspective, particularly if it's the main milk that they're going to be drinking and have in their fridge for their family. Right. And so eight grams of protein and calcium fortification at sort of that hundred milligrams per per hundred and fifty mils. So you can turn it around and look per serve, you should have, you know, around three hundred milligrams of calcium in a serve is exactly matched for

• 2:31:19Simon Hill?

  what you would get through dairy. And then you, you know, you're now starting to see rich some other plant based milks pop up that contain B twelve and iodine and vitamin D. And again, whether you need these or not, really depends on, back to our earlier conversation, are you supplementing, are you getting enough? What does the rest of your diet look like?

• 2:31:43Rich Roll?

  On top of that, you also have to learn how to read the labels. Like, a lot of these things have added sugar. And it's back to a conversation around preservatives, emulsifiers, all of these other things that go into creating that texture that you're looking for in these products. So some are more natural than others. If it's, you know, a lot of them have a lot, have added sugar.

• 2:32:06Simon Hill?

  I usually go for the unsweetened version. That is, most brands will have, not all, but a lot of them have a sweet version and an unsweetened.

• 2:32:16Rich Roll?

  Sure. And then there's the fat content as well. Like, a coconut milk is going to be higher in fat than the others, right?

• 2:32:24Simon Hill?

  Yeah, so if you're trying to limit your saturated fat, then you're probably going to lean more towards a pea milk or a soy milk. And soy has particular properties, actually, that's very good for lowering cholesterol. And we can talk about that if you want at some stage.

• 2:32:38Rich Roll?

  People get freaked out when you talk about soy, though.

• 2:32:39Simon Hill?

  Yeah, so that's why I like to state, and they don't need to get freaked out about soy, but I understand that there is quite a lot of stigma around it. But, you know, the high-quality science we have suggests people don't need to fear it. But for whatever reason, some people don't want to consume soy. And so I would look for other options like the pea milk that is comparable to dairy in terms of overall protein content.

• 2:33:07Rich Roll?

  Oat milk seems to be killing the game right now.

• 2:33:09Simon Hill?

  Yeah, oat milk's great. And it's, the reason it's going so well is it's incredible in coffee. It's very creamy. My only sort of criticism, if that's the right word, of oat milk is that if you are looking for something that is comparable to dairy from a protein point of view, if, for example, you want this to be one of the sort of high-protein plant foods that you're going to eat in the day, then that's, that's not the case for oat milk. So just something to, to be aware of.

• 2:33:41Rich Roll?

  What about almond milk that you make at home in three seconds in the Vitamix? Or cashew milk? It's so easy. Once you figure out how to do that.

• 2:33:51Simon Hill?

  It's easy and my recommendation is if you do that, then that's fantastic. I would buy a red, you can buy red algae powder. So back to the superfoods we were talking about. And I would put red algae powder in and red algae powder is super concentrated in calcium. You can't taste it and all of a sudden that transforms your milk that you're making at home to one that is packed with calcium.

• 2:34:17Rich Roll?

  That's great. Heck, I've never heard of that before.

• 2:34:19Simon Hill?

  And it's actually quite cheap and this one I will name a brand because I know it on the top of my head. I think it's called Now Foods and they sell on Amazon around the world. And they, at least they used to, when I last looked at this, have a powdered form, not just a capsule. So you can just dose that in at about, you want to dose it about 1,000 milligrams of calcium for one liter.

• 2:34:43Rich Roll?

  Hmm. Okay. In the way that people get freaked out when you talk about soy or soy milk, people also get freaked out when the topic, the subject turns to grains, right? Whole grains are an important part of a healthy diet, certainly a healthy whole food, plant-based diet. But then people lose their minds. They're like, how can grains are the devil? Grains are the worst thing that you could be eating. How could you possibly say that I should be eating grains?

• 2:35:15Simon Hill?

  Hmm. Yeah. So this comes back, I think the best sort of on-ramp here or departure point to explain this is probably that carbohydrates is an umbrella term. And we often see all these different foods lumped under the one sort of umbrella as, well, that's a carbohydrate-rich food. It must be bad for our health. And that stems from the most heavily processed cereal to brown rice and quinoa. And we see all these foods bucketed underneath the same sort of umbrella. And in reality, they have different effects on our health. I think it's important to understand what's the difference between a refined grain and an unrefined. And

• 2:36:01Simon Hill?

  Takes me back to university. I used to think about the word beg. So B stands for bran, E stands for endosperm, and G stands for germ. This describes the three layers of a whole grain. And really, the bran, the outer layer, is where most of the fibre is. And then the endosperm in the middle is sort of the largest component is just the starch carbohydrate part.

• 2:36:32Rich Roll?

  The white bread part.

• 2:36:33Simon Hill?

  Yes. And then the right, deep, deep in, there's the germ. And the germ is where a lot of the antioxidants and phytochemicals, vitamins and minerals are. And in a refined grain, you just have the endosperm, the middle layer. So you just, you get rid of the, the, the nice, high fibre outer casing. And you get rid of this very nutrient dense germ from the middle and you're just left with the starch. Okay. So you can imagine another analogy here is all of a sudden you've got your, your carbohydrates are naked. They're not wearing their clothes anymore.

• 2:37:13Simon Hill?

  And whereas the, the whole grain is providing much more fibre, much more antioxidants, phytochemicals, vitamins and minerals. And they have very different effects on our physiology from how they're metabolised, how they affect our gut microbiome. If you're eating refined grains, you're foregoing that fibre that you could have had. And therefore you're not, you're not feeding your microbes at the same time. So they are very different. I like to point people to brown rice and wild rice and buckwheat and amaranth and barley. These are all really, really healthy whole grains that we should be including in our diet.

• 2:37:58Simon Hill?

  They are consistently associated with better health outcomes, with longevity. And usually I like people to be getting at least three serves of those per day. A serve being sort of half a cup of, of rice or quinoa or two pieces of whole wheat bread, for example. And, you know, if, if you're doing that, you are absolutely overall improving the overall healthfulness of your diet.

• 2:38:27Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 2:38:30Rich Roll?

  For the consumer going to the market, problems ensue because there's a lot of confusion about what constitutes a whole grain versus a refined grain. And there's a lot of marketing shenanigans that go on into masking what is a refined grain and trying to advertise it as something more in the vein of a whole grain. And so I think people are trying to make informed choices and are often led astray. So how do we know? Like, for example, bread, like, talk about bread a little bit, because I think people would be amazed to hear like, what goes into this.

• 2:39:08Simon Hill?

  Well, I used to just pick up any sort of multi-grain bread.

• 2:39:11Rich Roll?

  Like, if it's just on the darker side, it's probably better.

• 2:39:14Simon Hill?

  And if you can see some seeds. I thought that was how you choose a healthy bread for a long time. And it's probably not the best way of trying to decipher what's healthy, what's less healthy. And I like to point people to, to think about two different things when trying to choose a bread. But some of this applies to just any food in a package. The first is that the first ingredient written on the bread on the ingredient list is very important, very, very important.

• 2:39:46Rich Roll?

  Enriched flour.

• 2:39:47Simon Hill?

  If it's enriched flour, then, you know, we're all of a sudden, we've jumped into refined carbohydrate territory. And that's probably going to be a product we want to skip and look for something else.

• 2:39:58Rich Roll?

  Enriched is such an interesting choice of words. It should be deprived flour or something like that.

• 2:40:04Simon Hill?

  It's a positive spin.

• 2:40:06Rich Roll?

  Impoverished.

• 2:40:07Simon Hill?

  Come on, they're marketers. I don't blame them for using that word. But the first, the first word is very important. We don't also, we also don't want to see wheat flour. Wheat flour tricks a lot of people. What you want to see is the first word is whole. Whole wheat flour, whole wheat grain, whole meal. The very first part of that word should say whole.

• 2:40:34Rich Roll?

  Good luck finding that. There's almost no, I mean, it's very difficult.

• 2:40:39Simon Hill?

  We're narrowing the field, but it's definitely, it's definitely positive, definitely possible to find one. And the second thing I like people to look at, which is really the final thing, the two of these together works very well to identify a healthy bread, is looking at the carbohydrate to fiber ratio. So what we want to see is a ratio of five to one or better. Okay, so by that, what I mean is if per serve, you have 20 grams of carbohydrates. I want to see that that product has four grams of fiber or more.

• 2:41:19Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 2:41:19Simon Hill?

  That's a very good indicator, again, that what we're dealing with here is a less refined product that goes for anything in a wrapper and also for for breads.

• 2:41:32Rich Roll?

  It's interesting. I've never heard that before.

• 2:41:34Simon Hill?

  Yeah, actually, I should attribute that because, uh, you know, you told me that.

• 2:41:40Rich Roll?

  Uh, Dr. Gregor.

• 2:41:42Simon Hill?

  Spot on.

• 2:41:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:43Simon Hill?

  So, uh, that's that's some of Dr. Gregor's magic. And I think when you when you think about that, plus you think about that first ingredient, it is a very, uh, it's a very quick and easy way to identify, you know, a sort of unhealthy bread or a less healthy bread to one that is truly giving you that sort of whole grains, which is what we're after.

• 2:42:06Rich Roll?

  So if you find that bread that begins with the word whole and has the appropriate ratio, that has an okay place in your routine in terms of eating that kind of bread. So if you find that, we need not vilify bread as a blanket term.

• 2:42:25Simon Hill?

  No.

• 2:42:26Rich Roll?

  We can have that and feel like we're nourishing ourselves on some level.

• 2:42:31Simon Hill?

  And we only have to look to the Sardinians, uh, the Centenarians in Sardinia. They regularly eat bread. They have wholemeal sourdough, which is one of my favorite breads.

• 2:42:43Rich Roll?

  Right. I want sourdough is is interesting. It's a white bread, but it's actually, I mean, there's a difference between, is there a difference between the sourdough that you buy in the grocery store versus like the homemade sourdough, which is like a whole thing?

• 2:42:56Simon Hill?

  Well, I think the big difference we're talking about here again is that starting grain. Is it whole or is it refined? A lot of the sourdough that you would pick up just off the shelf is not wholemeal. It's not a wholemeal base in that recipe. So trying to find a wholemeal sourdough can be a little tricky. I know a couple of places, for example, in Sydney, one just happens to be down the road from me that I was able to locate, but it's something people can look out for. But you will be able to find a wholemeal bread in general. And the other one to point out here is there's a whole nother sort of class of breads. Ezekiel sprouted breads. And these, they're sprouting whole grains.

• 2:43:38Rich Roll?

  This is Doug Evans approved.

• 2:43:39Simon Hill?

  This is absolutely Doug Evans approved. So that's a whole nother option. You can look for the sprouted quinoa or sprouted flax or any type of sprouted bread or Ezekiel bread is another great option. And I tend to rotate through sort of wholemeal bread, wholemeal sourdough with an Ezekiel.

• 2:44:00Rich Roll?

  If the bread is in the freezer section as opposed to the bakery section, in my mind, that's a good place to start. Like if it has to be refrigerated, there's something alive in there that maybe would warrant a deeper look.

• 2:44:15Simon Hill?

  For sure. I think that's another good tip.

• 2:44:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. If your priority is lowering your cholesterol or losing weight, like how do we, understanding that there's no one size fits all plant-based diet. We talked about athletes, we talked about some general principles. How do you modify your approach to your plant-based diet to achieve weight loss or lower those markers?

• 2:44:44Simon Hill?

  Usually when I talk about cholesterol lowering, I point to A series of recommendations from an M D in Canada called Dr. David Jenkins. And he has developed what's called the portfolio diet. Some people may have heard of this before. It's a plant-based dietary pattern and it focuses more on what you're adding. It's got four steps to it and it's been clinically shown in randomized controlled trials to lower your cholesterol by thirty odd percent. And, and really that's not going full plant. That's coming from an omnivorous diet. So if you were to go full plant and, and tap into these four recommendations even more,

• 2:45:29Simon Hill?

  then the cholesterol lowering could arguably be above thirty percent. And I've certainly seen that with a number of people I've worked with. So the first recommendation of the four in the portfolio diet, and I'll give you a PDF. I have a beautiful PDF summary of this from Dr. David Jenkins. First step is a couple of small handfuls of nuts per day. So that could be walnuts, it could be pistachios, it could be almonds, it could be a serve of nut butter, which is a tablespoon or two.

• 2:46:03Rich Roll?

  It's interesting. I wouldn't, I wouldn't intuitively associate those with lowering cholesterol.

• 2:46:08Simon Hill?

  So let me tell you what's happening there. Nuts consistently have been shown in the literature to lower cholesterol. And the reason for that is their unsaturated fat content, particularly the polyunsaturated fats, which as opposed to saturated fat, which increases cholesterol, unsaturated fats, particularly the polyunsaturated fats, lower cholesterol. So that's what's happening there. The second recommendation in the portfolio diet is to have at least two to three serves of plant protein per day.

• 2:46:46Simon Hill?

  Ideally with a few of those being from soy foods. So this overall could be two or three serves from lentils, chickpeas, tofu, tempeh, these sorts of foods. The reason for a recommendation to include some soy foods within that, edamame for example, or tofu, is that they do have a particular, particularly good way of lowering cholesterol. That's unique to soy? That's unique to soy and it's large, it's probably driven actually through polyphenols. The phytoestrogens, which is what everyone sort of refers to them as, they're actually isoflavones which are polyphenols.

• 2:47:28Simon Hill?

  And it does seem that about one in two people have a particular microbiome composition where they can convert these compounds into a compound called ekwal, which is providing many benefits throughout the body. So two to three serves of plant protein being tip number two. And remember that this is for most people coming at the expense of red meat and chicken. The third recommendation is to have five serves of fruits and vegetables per day. Five serves of fruits and vegetables per day, which is well above what the average intake is.

• 2:48:12Simon Hill?

  And with a bias towards fruits and vegetables that have a lot of soluble fibre, viscous fibre, that pulls bile out of the digestive system and in doing that helps to lower cholesterol. These sort of viscous foods are like eggplant, okra. We've got berries are another great one, apples. So these sorts of foods. And then the fourth tip is, or fourth recommendation within this portfolio diet is the consumption of plant sterols. So these are a phytochemical that essentially blocks the absorption of cholesterol.

• 2:48:58Simon Hill?

  And you can do this, there are some products that are fortified with these plant sterols. But probably the, the best and easiest way to do this, because you need two grams of these plant sterols per day to be clinically effective, that's shown in randomized controlled trials, is to take a supplement. And there, there's a bunch of different brands offering them and they're pretty much always at two grams per serve because that is the clinically proven dose. So those are the four sort of recommendations that on the aggregate lead to a 30% reduction in your LDL cholesterol, which is the atherogenic cholesterol that

• 2:49:41Simon Hill?

  contributes to the fatty plaque being laid down in our arteries and then a heart attack or a stroke. I would say because that can be quite a significant drop, if you're currently on medications, you should be doing this under the supervision of your physician. You should at least let them know that, look, I'm, I'm going to be changing my diet and you could point to this PDF that, that I will provide.

• 2:50:09Rich Roll?

  At which point the doctor says, go for it. It's not going to make any difference. Your statin is always going to be your statin.

• 2:50:15Simon Hill?

  Right. And you might be the, the first person that goes back and surprises them, but the point of keeping them across it is that it may well affect your dose of your medication.

• 2:50:26Rich Roll?

  Right. It seems like these are, well, two things. First, by eating these foods, you're kind of crowding out the other foods that might take up space on your plate. So it's not about what you're eliminating. It's about focusing on these new things. And then suddenly there's no room for all those other things that are elevating your cholesterol. But beyond that, with the exception of maybe amping up your fruit and vegetable intake, these seem like principles that are good for anybody, whether you're trying to lower your cholesterol or not.

• 2:51:01Simon Hill?

  100%. And, you know, overall, it's just shifting people to a whole food, plant-based dietary pattern. It's just that it has, that specific protocol has been tried and tested and has shown to result in this very clinically meaningful drop in cholesterol, which is equivalent to low-dose statins. So that 30% reduction is very significant. You know, for the average person that's taking their cholesterol from 130, which as we established is well above optimal, you know, down to 90 or around 90, which is, you know, moving in a very favorable direction.

• 2:51:46Rich Roll?

  And this is something that has been proven out. Plenty of people have done this and

• 2:51:51Simon Hill?

  A lot of people.

• 2:51:52Rich Roll?

  Effectively lowered their

• 2:51:53Simon Hill?

  Many different studies, tried and tested. And in fact, it's so tried and tested that most physicians, if presented with this, will be well aware of it. It's a very commonly understood protocol and has now influenced some of the national cholesterol lowering dietary guidelines.

• 2:52:14Rich Roll?

  That's good to hear. How would this differ if weight loss is the priority beyond the obvious, like maybe reduce your portions? Like, what are the kind of tweaks that you're going to make if that's your goal?

• 2:52:26Simon Hill?

  Firstly, understanding calorie density is important. In my book, I separate foods into sort of low calorie density, medium calorie density, high calorie density, and very high. And the low calorie dense foods are pretty much all of your fruits and vegetables, other than say dates and avocados, which are very healthy foods, but are just a bit more calorie dense. So in that low calorie sort of food table, I have all the fruits and vegetables. It's got the dark leafy greens, it's got the cruciferous vegetables like broccoli and cabbage and broccolini.

• 2:53:04Simon Hill?

  It's got pretty much all of your various fruits, it's got mushrooms and it also has tofu in there. And usually if someone comes to me and they're wanting to lose weight, let's say that's their goal, that's right for them. First, I check are they eating according to sort of the plant based food pyramid that I have in there? Or has a whole lot of ultra processed foods snuck in, which sometimes can happen.

• 2:53:30Rich Roll?

  In which case you just remove those and you barely have to worry about anything else and it takes care of itself.

• 2:53:36Simon Hill?

  Right, those are hyper palatable and they're driving that excess consumption. And we can't control the environment around us, but we can try as best as possible to control the environment in our four walls. And at least make it harder, create more resistance to consuming those foods. So if they're not in the house, if the ice cream's not there,

• 2:53:57Simon Hill?

  you have to overcome a lot of resistance to jump into the car when you get the craving. Calorie density, back to to those four different sort of groups of plant based foods, whole food, whole plant based foods. My recommendation is to really load up on those fruits and vegetables, particularly before your main meal as a way of of filling up. And it will improve your satiety before you get more of the calorie dense foods on your plate. And one of the sort of superstars that often people are surprised by here.

• 2:54:32Simon Hill?

  Is potato.

• 2:54:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:34Simon Hill?

  It's, you know, potato is a much maligned food.

• 2:54:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:54:37Simon Hill?

  Largely because we fry it and turn it into chips. But if you just take the, the sort of boiled or baked potato and look at that, it is a very satiating food. It's low in calories. So it's a, it's a great way to feel full on fewer calories.

• 2:54:56Rich Roll?

  And it actually has a lot more nutrients than people realize. Like even the average russet potato is pretty good. If you just don't put a ton of butter on it or sour cream or whatever, and just eat it for what it is. It's filling. This is something chef AJ talks a lot about. Like if you just increase those low calorie density foods that are super high in fiber, you can fill yourself up. And I think kind of preloading before your meal so that you don't go into a meal starving. You're in a better place to make better selective decisions.

• 2:55:31Simon Hill?

  Definitely.

• 2:55:31Rich Roll?

  Great advice.

• 2:55:32Simon Hill?

  Like big salads before you go into your main meal. Cauliflower is another one in there.

• 2:55:37Rich Roll?

  And being aware of the hidden calorie bombs. Like what dressing are you using? What is this? It's all in the sauces and all that other stuff that seems benign. And, and those are the real killers.

• 2:55:49Simon Hill?

  And there was, so there was a study that speaks pretty much to that out of Johns Hopkins that looked at, uh, how many extra calories does someone consume if they eat out? Like five, six times a week versus someone who cooks at home almost every day. And they, they were able to determine that that person eating out just five or six meals a week were eating on average a thousand calories more per week, which over the course of the year is equivalent to around seven kilograms of butter. Right? So, uh, and, and probably what's happening there is that in restaurants and in cafes, there are a lot of hidden calories in the.

• 2:56:27Rich Roll?

  Sure. They're just trying to make it taste good and they're not showing you a nutrition profile on this food. And they're going to slather it with stuff, whether they tell you or not, for the most part.

• 2:56:37Simon Hill?

  The chefs call it SOS, salt, oil and sugar. And that's a.

• 2:56:42Rich Roll?

  That's what Alan Goldhammer calls it.

• 2:56:44Simon Hill?

  It's a secret weapon for them to, to, to make the food more appealing. But with that said, if your goal is to lose weight, you know, trying to prep at home and have as much meals that you're making yourself will give you a better control over what's in there.

• 2:56:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well dude, we did three hours.

• 2:57:03Simon Hill?

  I know.

• 2:57:03Rich Roll?

  We had to do three hours again because we did three hours last time. Before we completely shut it down, like any, any final thoughts or parting words for people? I feel like we covered a lot here. I think we gave people a lot of stuff to think about and take home with them.

• 2:57:19Simon Hill?

  I think, you know, in the first, in our first conversation, we kind of established the, the science underpinning a plant predominant to exclusive diet being best for human health. And my entire thesis is, and I want to kind of make this clear because I'm not sure I really spoke to that, is that when you broaden the lens, open up the aperture and, and consider how our food choices affect the planet, and you consider what we're doing to billions and billions of, of animals and the unnecessary pain and suffering that they are enduring,

• 2:58:03Simon Hill?

  experiencing, and that none of us would, would likely swap places with them. When you do that, it does create a compelling case for adopting a diet that is as plant-exclusive as possible. And I say as plant-exclusive as possible rather than a sort of firm endpoint because we all have our own circumstances, means, social circumstances, and I'm, I'm aware that this will look different for each individual. So my message is, is about, you know, I have unconditional love for everyone, no matter where they end up. And it's not about perfection.

• 2:58:48Simon Hill?

  This is about adopting this imperfectly, just like my diet is not perfect, it's imperfect. And we, rather than having a few people around the world make improvements perfectly, if we want to see great changes in public health, if we want to see great changes in planetary health, if we want to minimize the unnecessary pain and suffering that we're inflicting, then we need billions of people doing this imperfectly. So. With that in mind, my message is to let go of the perfection and take some

• 2:59:29Simon Hill?

  pressure off yourself, take, remove the self judgment and just get started. And that may be a small change, you know, such as just changing one component of your meal, swapping red meat for lentils. But by getting started, hopefully today or tomorrow, you, you start the momentum. And, you know, I have full confidence in everyone that as they get started and start to make these changes, they will begin to feel better themselves. And that is hugely motivating, as is what you feel from a mental point of view.

• 3:00:11Simon Hill?

  And, you know, I have made this transition and I was aware of the health benefits that were up for grabs. But what I was not aware of was how good it feels to live more congruently and to align your actions with your values and beliefs and the peace that, that that brings. So start slowly, take some pressure off, and I wish you all the best of luck.

• 3:00:40Rich Roll?

  Amen, brother. I have lots of thoughts, but, you know, I think that you just ended it so beautifully that I'm not going to say anything more other than thank you. You're a gift. It's been really fun hanging out with you here in Los Angeles. Hopefully we get to do it in Australia. We'll see at some point in the not too distant future.

• 3:01:00Simon Hill?

  If we let you in.

• 3:01:01Rich Roll?

  I really appreciate the level of, of care and precision that you bring to your work and the way in which you acquit yourself and conduct yourself in the digital space that, as we all know, is kind of rife with a lot of bad behavior right now. And I always look to you as, as a lighthouse and a guidepost for kind of setting not only a tone, but as somebody who cares about trustworthiness in terms of, of, you know, what you choose to offer people in the public space. The book is The Proof Is In The Plants, available everywhere. It's a fantastic resource.

• 3:01:43Rich Roll?

  As I said last time, it really is like the comprehensive primer. On all things plant-based, it's so vetted with the science and really you don't need to look any further than that book to answer any and every question that you may have about this diet. And that's it, man. To be continued. Part two concluded, but many parts unknown yet to come. We did it. I appreciate you. Thanks, man. Thank you. Simon is going to provide us with a list of resources to support the statements made today, some PDFs, I guess. We'll include everything that we can in the show notes. So if you're interested in diving deeper, you can go there, you can go to his book, you can go to his podcast, Plant Proof, and you can find Simon on all the social media

• 3:02:28Rich Roll?

  channels at Plant Proof. Well, @plant proof on Twitter. Same on Instagram. The same on Instagram? Yeah. And in those places, you're just, you're very active. Like you share lots of stuff and every study that you come across and you're not afraid to mix it up with people there and share your opinion. And so it's a fun follow as well. Thank you very much. Yeah, man. It's been good. Episode two, I think we did it. We did. Episode three, on the horizon. Peace. Plants. Proof. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation.

• 3:03:11Rich Roll?

  To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment.

• 3:03:50Rich Roll?

  Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg and Grayson Wilder.

• 3:04:30Rich Roll?

  Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Jessica Miranda, Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and A.J. Akpodiate. Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support, see you back here soon. Peace. Plants.