Pod Insights WHAT WENT WRONG The Life and Death of River Phoenix (with Last Podcast on the Left) About this episode Lizzie, Chris, and special guests Henry Zebrowski and Ed Larson from the 'Last Podcast on the Left' investigate the extraordinary life and untimely death of River Phoenix. We dig into Phoenix’s complicated family dynamics, his deep discomfort with fame, and the pressures that followed him. Find out how his childhood - including a stint in the Children of God cult - informed his meteoric rise as one of Hollywood’s most sensitive and sought-after performers. We also explore the troubled production of his final film 'Dark Blood', and why it took almost 20 years to be released.
Out of Frame is a bonus series that pulls back the curtain on the offscreen lives of Hollywood’s most fascinating figures—where the real stories are often stranger, darker, and more revealing than anything you see on film.
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Transcript 15,133 words · 9 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:57 Lizzie Bassett? Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to What Went Wrong, your favorite podcast full stop that just so happens to be about movies and how it's nearly impossible to make them, let alone a good one, let alone an unfinished film released almost 20 years after the untimely death of its star. This is another episode in our Out of Frame bonus series where we explore the darker, more obscure corners of Hollywood. And today, we're talking about the life, death, and final film of River Phoenix. Now, I do want to give a content warning right up top. This episode will discuss child sexual abuse, sexual assault, and heavy drug use. It's also going to feature more colorful language than you may be used to.
2:38 Lizzie Bassett? And that's because I'm not just here with my usual co-host, Chris Winterbauer, but we are also joined by experts on some subject matter that's going to be very relevant in today's episode. I am so excited. We've got Henry Zebrowski and Ed Larson from the Last Podcast on the Left. Welcome, guys. Hello.
2:57 Speaker 02 I want to just stress to everyone how much not an expert I am.
3:01 Speaker 03 I just want to say, I'm not an expert, I'm just a fan. I think Dad's a sexy guy, and it's just nice to have some time to really ruminate on him.
3:14 Speaker 02 I can see the regret in their eyes.
3:16 Speaker 03 I was just so happy last night, kicked back, big, tall, frothy glass of milk, reading the story of Davide Dito aloud to my wife, and one of my favorite times.
3:30 Lizzie Bassett? Just in case anybody's wondering what we were talking about, a decent part of this episode is going to be spent discussing the Children of God cult because, yes, River Phoenix and all of his siblings did grow up for a few years in the Children of God cult. So, we are going to talk about it. It's so much weirder than you could possibly imagine. So, we will get there. But before we do, very quickly, Henry, Ed, and Chris, what's your sort of experience of River Phoenix coming into this episode?
3:59 Speaker 02 I mean, I'm a big Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade fan. He's my man. He's young Indy. He's the real young Indy, as far as I'm concerned. And I love them for that. And then, of course, my private Idaho. And that was about all I really knew. I never really watched too much, other than that. Big fan of his brother.
4:17 Speaker 03 Huge fan of his brother, like his work. I do find that every five years, what Hollywood does is choose the skinniest boys they can find and give them good scripts. So, what they do is they take-
4:28 Speaker 02 He was nominated for an Oscar.
4:29 Speaker 03 That's what I do. They take three or four. The rest of us that are used to be actors, we get nothing but hot garbage, and then they choose three- Three skinny men to give all the greatest material of the year to each year. I don't know why they decide which skinnies get it. And he was one of them, because if you look at River Phoenix, the material he got to work with from the get was some of the best stuff in Hollywood history.
4:54 Speaker 02 They gave him Indiana Jones.
4:56 Speaker 03 Dude, and he, who do you know?
4:58 Lizzie Bassett? Guys, he had to work for it. You're gonna find out how hard.
5:01 Speaker 02 Good. Now, I know, I know he had a, he had a, his siblings were all named weird things. Obviously Joaquin, but there was like Leaf and Lake and all that stuff, right?
5:10 Chris Winterbauer? Liberty and Summer.
5:11 Speaker 02 Was, was Lake one of them?
5:12 Chris Winterbauer? Yeah, there were a lot of them.
5:14 Lizzie Bassett? Yes.
5:14 Chris Winterbauer? I thought Leaf was. I didn't remember if there was Lake.
5:16 Lizzie Bassett? Phoenix. There's, they, they all change identities all the time. Yeah, we'll get into it.
5:20 Speaker 02 Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
5:22 Chris Winterbauer? Uh, well, aside from how skinny he was, I was, I've always liked River Phoenix. There is something, I mean, it's true. Austin Butler, Timothee Chalamet come to mind as the new skinny.
5:34 Speaker 03 They just get the best stuff and the rest of us have to fight over garbage like a bunch of diseased rats.
5:40 Speaker 02 Well, they're very, Timothy Chalamet is very talented.
5:42 Speaker 03 Well, he's skinny.
5:43 Speaker 02 I don't like him at all, but he's very talented.
5:45 Speaker 03 He's very skinny.
5:45 Speaker 02 Did you see the movie?
5:47 Speaker 03 No, no, we're bogging them down.
5:49 Speaker 02 I love Pong Pong.
5:51 Chris Winterbauer? The thing I find most interesting with River Phoenix, and, and I like the same movies, the, the big hits, right? Stand by Me, Young Indiana Jones and Last Crusade, not Young Indiana Jones, as you mentioned, and then My Private Idaho.
6:02 Lizzie Bassett? It's My Own Private Idaho.
6:03 Chris Winterbauer? My Own Private Idaho. And then, uh, but I, I don't know. I don't know if you guys feel this way, but I feel like, I mean, he was obviously very talented. I liked him in a lot of stuff.
6:14 Chris Winterbauer? But I, because he died so early, we've like extrapolated this amazing, the amazing career he would have had if he had not died so young.
6:22 Speaker 03 See his Matthew McConaughey rom com run.
6:24 Chris Winterbauer? Yes. Right. We, he kind of, he was like in the sweet spot for a long time and, and even something like Sneakers, like an ensemble cast. He's really good in that.
6:32 Speaker 02 Oh, he's in Sneakers. Forgot about that.
6:34 Chris Winterbauer? Yeah, he's really good in Sneakers. I guess I'm just, I think we should always leave it open that like the career may have gone very differently. That like a Christian Slater result was just as likely as a Brad Pitt result, you know, was just as likely. A different one, and I actually think we'll talk about it at the end, but I think Dark Blood, and I understand there are some very specific circumstances around that movie. I do think it actually maybe reveals a slightly more limited range that he had as an actor than. He'd stuck to a specific type of role, I think, for a while, and he was trying to break out with Dark Blood. Listen, it's an incomplete film. It's unfair to judge it on those terms, but I. I'm just, I'm a little skeptical that it was going to be the home run that everybody assumes. It was going to be, and I. But I think we do this with so many actors.
7:19 Speaker 03 Look at Orson Welles. I think of Orson Welles all the time about how he peaked, like they joke about it, but it's true. He peaked at 23.
7:26 Speaker 02 What are you talking about? Touch of Evil is his best movie.
7:29 Speaker 03 Don't, dude, he was like 30 when he made that movie.
7:31 Speaker 02 No, Touch of Evil is fat as hell. He's like fifty something.
7:35 Speaker 03 He was fat. He was fat early.
7:37 Lizzie Bassett? It's true. I, we're gonna get into this. I, I do wanna start diving in because, you know, I think. I think the truth is River Phoenix's heart really was not in it by the time that he unfortunately passed away. And I do think that that's evident in the work. And you know what? We're gonna find out why, because he had. Quite a life. All right. So when you've got a name like River Phoenix, pretty safe to assume that your parents are classic hippies, which was true. His parents were Arlen and John, but they hadn't always been your standard 60s hippies. Just a few years before River was born. His mother was actually a 23-year-old Jewish secretary working in Manhattan. She was living with her husband. Who was not River Phoenix's father, and she just decided, you know what? None of this feels right.
8:21 Lizzie Bassett? And so, as many people did, she bailed on her entire life, hitchhiked her way out of New York, got all the way to California. She's standing on Santa Monica Boulevard, sticking her thumb out to hitch a ride. And a 21-year-old man drives up in a Volkswagen minibus, and his name is John Lee, not Phoenix, but Bottom. Now, he'd had a pretty rough upbringing, several years spent at an orphanage, teenager, he ran away, tried to become a songwriter, none of it worked. Now he's living as a gardener and refinishing furniture, but these two hit it off right away. They are both very into the anti-war movement. They're both nomadic. They are anti-materialist and they just really seemed to love each other very much. So they travel around the West Coast for a couple of years.
9:05 Lizzie Bassett? In 1970, they settle on a peppermint farm in Oregon, mostly because Arlen was wicked pregnant. She kept working on the peppermint farm right up until she gave birth, refused to go to a hospital or have a doctor. That is a theme that will continue. And then on August 23rd in 1970, her first child was born and his name was River Jude Bottom. River Bottom, guys. Wow.
9:30 Speaker 02 Really cool.
9:31 Lizzie Bassett? Oh.
9:31 Speaker 02 Really good name.
9:32 Speaker 03 Now it makes sense.
9:33 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah.
9:33 Speaker 03 There we go.
9:34 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah.
9:35 Speaker 02 Yeah. The second kid should have been called Catfish. It's hard, buddy. It's hard.
9:42 Speaker 03 Bruno, it should have been Apple.
9:43 Speaker 02 Yes, yes.
9:45 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah.
9:45 Speaker 03 Apple Bottom.
9:46 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah, and then boots with the fur for the rest of the children.
9:49 Speaker 03 How disgusting would that be after like spanking the baby when it's alive and that's the first thing the doctor says like?
9:55 Speaker 02 Nice little bottom you got there.
9:56 Lizzie Bassett? He was a nice little bottom.
9:57 Speaker 02 We'll find out that.
9:58 Lizzie Bassett? Very cute. So they named him River because their commune had been reading a book called Siddhartha. Yes, they're in a commune. They're always in a commune and the river is a central theme in this book, representing enlightenment, answers to life's questions, time, unity, and much, much more. Any guesses why they named his middle name Jude?
10:17 Speaker 02 Oh, their song, The Beatles. Saint Jude.
10:19 Lizzie Bassett? There you go. Yeah, they really liked the song Hey Jude. Yeah, they're keeping it pretty simple. So this stint on the peppermint farm, though, is pretty brief and after little River Bottom was born, they again go out and they're driving around the US as part of now a mobile commune. And naturally they're still doing a whole bunch of LSD. Arlen later said, quote, "We'd heard that acid was the truth serum. It was the thing that was going to get you above the world to a level consciousness where you could feel the power of God. That was the only reason we took it."
10:46 Speaker 03 I mean, it does, but it doesn't mean you're going to be like, cool to go for the rest of your life. You know what I mean? But it does do that.
10:53 Speaker 02 I did a lot in high school. I trail, I have permanent trails. It's the worst. Yeah, I always, they're not going anywhere. Yeah, they don't, they haven't left me. I'm so mad about it. Yeah. Actually, I think it's kind of cool.
11:06 Chris Winterbauer? Like, everything has tracers in your life. It's all right.
11:10 Speaker 03 Yeah, you get used to it.
11:11 Chris Winterbauer? Yeah.
11:12 Lizzie Bassett? All right, well, his parents had an awakening of sorts where they realized that, okay, maybe drugs are not the right path forward. And I want to read a much later exchange between River and his father from Premier Magazine. His father said, "I just instantly saw that I was living in a pit. There were a lot of lost people and the president wasn't necessarily the nicest guy in the world." To which River said, "Maybe you didn't need drugs to know that." So sometime in 1972, the family wound up in Texas. And this is where their aforementioned awakening made them the perfect target for a cult leader named David Brant Berg. All right, we're here. So you guys have extensively covered the children of God and David Berg on the last podcast, On the Left.
11:57 Lizzie Bassett? Henry, can you give me the briefest rundown you can of who early David Berg was? What was his target?
12:05 Speaker 02 The, he was, he was an early, he was, started CBGBs with the talking heads.
12:09 Speaker 03 No, you fucking asshole, you don't know anything about, no, this isn't the alt scene. This isn't the history of punk. This isn't No Dogs.
12:19 Speaker 03 David Berg came from a family of fringe Christian beliefs and a family of other people, like other cult leaders. And when he was born, he was a very sexually active little boy. He was, you'd almost call him sexually maniacal as a little boy, a compulsive masturbator. It made his mom to the point where she thought a suitable punishment would be to, that if you caught him masturbating, which she would do, is place him in front of his father. And then he would have to masturbate to completion as punishment. And eventually-
12:50 Speaker 02 In front of his dad?
12:51 Speaker 03 Yeah. And then David Berg began to take, take that on as a challenge. And he was just like, haha, I'm the best that's ever done it. Because David Berg, weirdly enough, is one of the most positive men you've ever met in the face of the, positive? Just, just real groovy, right? And so David Berg, he started a, he was a traditional preacher. He was like in these sort of like various fringe, the blah, blah, blah. And then something broke inside of him. He started to realize, the scene's changing.
13:23 Speaker 03 I'm gonna position myself in a world of hippies as the anti hippie hippie. Which means your parents, like he started to go straight to the disaffected youth that are starting to be getting over the hippie movement. Where they're like, "Oh, I'm sick of doing all of these drugs. I'm sick of rock and roll." But David, but they're still in the lifestyle. David Berg understood that in order to get to that group, he started to change the way he dressed. He started dressing all funky, wearing like Afghans and like he changed up all the stuff. Grew his hair real long. He started understanding, "Oh, you talk to the youth." First ever like, probably prototype of the cool pastor.
14:05 Speaker 03 Right? That everybody, "This is a cool place. We're doing this rock and roll music. We're doing this in a bus." And it's really just about getting back to Christ and getting rid of all of the noise. Like we're getting rid of all of the structure of religion. We're getting rid of all the nonsense and the wildness of the 60s. We're getting rid of that and we're coming down to a simple, back to Jesus movement. Cause that's the other, in the 70s and all this, there was all of these like Jesus movements, which were entirely stripped down, walking around religions.
14:35 Speaker 02 Okay.
14:35 Speaker 03 And so that's like, David Berg, that's where the structure, then he turned, that's kind of, then it went from there.
14:41 Speaker 02 Okay.
14:41 Lizzie Bassett? Yes. Also, I want to point out, if anyone listening is like, "Why is he talking about this man's child sexual abuse?" It will come back unfortunately in a big way.
14:50 Speaker 03 I brought it up because it becomes his entire life.
14:53 Chris Winterbauer? It's the basis, it's the basis for the entire church that he forms effectively.
14:58 Lizzie Bassett? So that's exactly right. Thank you, Henry. That was perfect. It's almost like a marketing thing where he realizes that like the hippies, these are the people that I can get. And so that's why he and his family start really targeting them. And John and Arlen are exactly the type of people that the Bergs were trying to reel in and they got them good. So by 1972, they'd been really looking for their tribe and they find it in Crockett, Texas with the children of God. They gave up all their possessions, which is what everyone was asked to do. They packed their whole family into a school bus along with some other randos. They go to Colorado Springs. They set up a new commune. They go back to Texas. And River Phoenix's parents rose through the ranks of the children of God quite fast.
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18:01 Lizzie Bassett? In 1972, they changed their names to Amram and Yehudah, the parents of Moses. Interesting, because they're already framing River as sort of like a prophet.
18:11 Speaker 03 Like a chosen one.
18:12 Lizzie Bassett? Exactly. So the second child they had was Rain Joan of Arc. And then they moved around a ton, first to Mexico, then to Puerto Rico, where Joaquin was born. And then John, aka Amram, was named the Archbishop of Venezuela and the Caribbean. And in 1975, the family moved to Caracas, Venezuela.
18:30 Speaker 03 Huge. Topical. Topical. Topical.
18:32 Lizzie Bassett? Topical.
18:33 Speaker 03 It's hu- Children of God, guts, huge.
18:37 Lizzie Bassett? Yes.
18:37 Speaker 02 Yeah. Also, I have to say Joan of Arc really could have used some rain there at the end.
18:45 Lizzie Bassett? Rimshot. All right.
18:49 Speaker 03 Brought it to a dead halt. Brought their show to a screaming halt.
18:56 Speaker 03 Wow.
18:58 Lizzie Bassett? I just can't top it. All right, so five-year-old River became fluent in Spanish. But because, you know, as Henry pointed out, Children of God was huge at this point, but they also didn't provide their missionaries with really any financial support. So how were the Bottoms paying for everything? Why their children, of course. They would send River and Rain out into the streets of Venezuela to sing, hand out pamphlets, and make some cash. A former member of the cult said that people were actually encouraged to use their kids to make ends meet, which kind of brings us to the only source of guidance that these basically colonial missionaries were receiving from David Berg, and that was the Mo letters. Henry, could you briefly explain what the Mo letters were?
19:41 Speaker 03 Mo letters are kind of, I view them as an early version of what the internet would do with a cult, like, processes. Like, the idea of, like, it can get you from afar. David Berg began to isolate himself. It's like early Q. Yes, early Q. Well, he, he isolated himself. Eventually, he put himself into his own little world because he didn't want to be totally available to the whole, to the entire, like, religion. So he created these long, drunk... recordings slash letters that he would distribute amongst everybody and they would be manuals for life and eventually they went all the way from big overarching things to
20:23 Speaker 03 very nitpicky things about how you like run your car like literally like how to maintain your car how to do blah blah blah but then it would turn into this he would experiment on things in his inner circle write about it in the mo letter and send it out and then let it kind of permeate through the rest of the cult this is where the first like child rearing stuff comes out this is where the first sexuality this is when people start seeing these his real thoughts
20:53 Lizzie Bassett? exactly and as you pointed out there were some child rearing things in these it does seem like an awful lot of pressure and stress was placed on children in the children of God we're gonna get to more of that in a moment but even just by telling these kids that their purpose was to save the world that that's your job that's what you are going to be doing that's a very stressful place for a kid to be and of course unfortunately there were other things that made this a very stressful place for children so while John did hold a leadership position Archbishop it's unclear exactly what that meant or how aware he was of David Berg's let's say darker tendencies but here's what we do know by
21:36 Lizzie Bassett? 1972 children of God was extremely controversial it was an openly fundamentalist sect as Henry pointed out they required their recruits to drop whatever they were doing hand over all their possessions generally not a good sign relatives of the members were concerned enough to organize they had formed the parents committee to free our children from the children of God free cog catchy and then the children of God fought back they said no this is all happening pretty publicly there was another group that formed the thankful parents and friends of the children of God thank cog who said no no they've saved our kids our kids are doing great and to be fair There were a lot of people that I think joined this cult as a way to get off of drugs. And to stay off of drugs.
22:21 Speaker 03 That's what Scientology, that was like one of these things. Every cult, a lot, I mean, not every cult, I'd say 85% start with an innocent idea. Like, or they start with something that is extremely helpful. There are helpful things in it. The idea of getting back to the earth, a simpler version of life, communal living. To be honest, it sounds really nice. That's how we used to live.
22:47 Speaker 02 We always talk about buying a bunch of land and starting a commune.
22:51 Speaker 03 But why does it always turn and fucking and sucking of every single person that's in the fucking commune? Why is it always, the commune always means everybody's getting fucked and sucked?
23:00 Speaker 02 That's why you need more, that's, the cities are great, because there's more people, you know.
23:07 Lizzie Bassett? By 1974, the same year that John and his family left the US, the New York Attorney General's office had officially described the group as a cult. And they released a report citing two cases involving teenage girls. One was a 14-year-old girl who said that she was raped when she, quote, refused to cooperate with the elders. Another was a 15-year-old girl who said she was forced to marry Berg's son, repeatedly raped, separated from one of her children, and then held against her will until she escaped. So, about as bad as you can get.
23:36 Speaker 03 Oh, yes.
23:37 Lizzie Bassett? At this point, he was communicating with his followers by mailing out these mo letters. Now, on the one hand, the bottoms, they were on the road quite a lot. They're in foreign countries, you know, the cult itself is not a singular entity, it's spread out. It could be easy to argue that, like, bah, he may not have been reading all of this. On the other hand, he was in a leadership position. The letter that is the sort of, like, nail in the coffin for their relationship with the Children of God cult is the mo letter advocating for flirty fishing. And to be very clear, what flirty fishing is, is literally telling the women to go out and have sex with men in order to get the men to join the cult. Do I have that right?
24:17 Speaker 03 Oh, so they actually were turned off by that?
24:19 Lizzie Bassett? They were, yes, they were.
24:20 Speaker 03 Fascinating.
24:21 Lizzie Bassett? Which, that was pretty, that was decently early. I believe that was around 1976.
24:27 Speaker 03 Yes, and the flirty fishing, to be honest. It was really when that starts is when the very, very, very bad stuff starts to go. Like, yes, bad stuff was happening.
24:39 Lizzie Bassett? Okay, so then he really may not have been explicitly aware of what was going on.
24:45 Speaker 03 Yeah, cuz all the story of Davide Dito stuff, all that's like after that. The flirty fishing is when it really becomes sex forward. The whole religion's sex forward.
24:55 Lizzie Bassett? Okay, so Henry, is there anything else that you can add about the flirty fishing strategy that they were employing here?
25:02 Speaker 03 So I was in Tallahassee, Florida. We went to college, Florida State.
25:05 Speaker 02 This happened.
25:06 Speaker 03 And I was at a party and I was at the time, let's just say I wasn't super great with the ladies.
25:14 Speaker 02 330 pounds.
25:15 Speaker 03 Not like I am now, not like I am now. And I, you know, cuz I learned a lot. I took mysteries class.
25:21 Speaker 02 You still had Res.
25:22 Speaker 03 Yep. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And, and Guz and Snutch. I went and I was at a party and this very attractive woman started talking at me, right? And she was all over me and she was, uh, like I did not know. And she did the thing where she said, I would love, we got into a serious conversation afterwards. And she's like, I would love for you to come check out my church. And I, at the time, was like, I can fucking do this.
25:49 Speaker 02 Yeah.
25:49 Speaker 03 Like, I can make this all happen.
25:51 Speaker 02 I remember being pretty excited for you.
25:53 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah. I was gonna make this all happen. I'm not gonna join her church. I'm gonna get this going. I'm gonna get all it. And then when I arrived there, everybody knew my name. They knew where I came from. They were already talking to me as if they had known me. They had me, wanted me to fill out all this paperwork describing my life, describing the things that I do every day, the things that I eat, the things, the classes I go to. And then I was like, oh, no. And then I'm like, very attractive woman. Again, I'm like, very attractive woman. And my brain is doing all this math, just being like, can you do this?
26:26 Speaker 02 Yeah.
26:26 Speaker 03 And then it's just like, no.
26:27 Speaker 02 Nope. I remember, I, I remember.
26:29 Speaker 03 So I got close.
26:30 Speaker 02 I remember showing up and you being like, it's a cult. We gotta get out of here.
26:33 Speaker 03 Yeah.
26:33 Speaker 02 Just like immediately.
26:34 Speaker 03 Yeah.
26:35 Lizzie Bassett? Good for you. That was not the case for a lot of other people who, flirty fishing. Very much worked on.
26:42 Speaker 03 I understood that there was others, there were other options.
26:44 Lizzie Bassett? There are, yes, there are always other options.
26:46 Chris Winterbauer? Like pyramid schemes, like multi-level marketing schemes, they all, and it happens in LA to a lot of people. Like you mentioned with Scientology, you arrive and it's really hard to find a community. You're trying to break into Hollywood. Somebody says like, hey, you know, you should come meet some people. A lot of us work in Hollywood, et cetera. You can understand why it might be like tempting to someone who feels a little lost, especially in a new location.
27:08 Lizzie Bassett? A hundred percent. And another deal breaker was apparently a photo in a magazine that showed Berg surrounded by young women. This was too much for the Bottoms and they decided to leave. However, later John Bottom would say of David Berg, quote, "He may have been a sexual pervert, but he's still a better man than a lot of people."
27:25 Speaker 03 Unbelievable. L. Ron Hubbard, obviously, I'm bringing it back to Scientology, is the perfect example of there are people still within the religion that believe that LRH, it's like David Miscavige fucked it all up. LRH was pure.
27:41 Lizzie Bassett? Right.
27:41 Speaker 03 It's this idea that there's this thing where they try to put it, because again, sunken cost fallacy. You can imagine.
27:47 Lizzie Bassett? Because you were part of it.
27:48 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:48 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah, exactly. So in terms of what River Phoenix experienced while he was in the cult, because again, like he's six years old. He is a conscious creature when he's in this cult. It is hard to know for sure. In a 1991 interview with Details Magazine, a reporter asked River, "Is there anything you did at an early age that you wish you had waited for?" And he said, "Yes, make love." The reporter asked how old he was, he said, "Four."
28:15 Speaker 03 Ah.
28:17 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah, the reporter asked with whom, another four-year-old, he said, "Kids, but I've blocked it out. I was completely celibate from 10 to 14. I haven't really had sex with many people, five or six. I've just fallen into relationships that were fulfilling and easily monogamous." But when the interview closes, River stated that his answers, quote, "Could all be different tomorrow." This is where it gets hard to know what was really going on. In another interview, he said, "I try to lie as much as I can when being interviewed. It's reverse psychology. I figure if you lie, they'll print the truth, and when I tell the truth, they'll lie." Years later, Joaquin Phoenix was asked about his comments on his early sexual experience, and he said, quote, "You really believe that? It was a complete and total joke. It was just
28:58 Lizzie Bassett? fucking with the press. It was literally a joke because he was so tired of being asked ridiculous questions by the press." Now, again, I do want to call out, River was four years older than Joaquin Phoenix. Joaquin Phoenix would have been less than two when they were in the cult, and River was six. That is a big difference in consciousness.
29:15 Speaker 03 Yes.
29:16 Lizzie Bassett? But all the other kids have basically the same story, which is that as soon as their parents started finding out that there was anything sexual being advocated by the cult, they bailed. So, God, I hope that's true, but it's very hard to know.
29:33 Speaker 03 My view is, honestly, is he knew that that was a story after the fact.
29:39 Lizzie Bassett? Right.
29:39 Speaker 03 And he did lie. I do think that he was, if you were looking at the time period, it was right at the point. He did say multiple times, David Berg, that children should sexually explore each other. Right? That was like a thing that he would talk about, about how children naturally want to explore each other. And so I could maybe see, and that was early, so I could see maybe there's some of that shit.
30:05 Lizzie Bassett? But I could see finding a way to ignore that if you're, I mean, I'm not saying you should, but like-
30:11 Speaker 03 No, that's what they did. They ignored it. They were like, "That's Dave. Dave's crazy."
30:15 Lizzie Bassett? Right.
30:15 Speaker 03 He's like, he's, or he's saying these things that were like, we don't always, like, they, I was reading other member testimonies, and they said that. They're like, you'd, like, we were sort of picking and choosing what we would sort of adhere to at that point, you know, besides the most basic stuff. And they're just covering their ass. Well, of course. I have no idea, man. It don't sound good.
30:34 Lizzie Bassett? No, it doesn't. But that's something that Joaquin Phoenix has said too, is like, when people have talked about the fact that they grew up in the cult, it seems to come with an element of blame on them. And I think that's true, but like, they're kids. So I do understand if River Phoenix was just fucking with journalists. I think that's very possible, but we're not gonna know. So they left Venezuela, they returned to Florida where Arlen's parents lived. Joaquin Phoenix celebrated his third birthday at sea. But one thing that they all remembered from this trip across the ocean was watching a group of fishermen reel in their catches and throw them against the ship. And it really upset all of them to the point where River Phoenix was like, we gotta be vegans. And their parents were like, sure, why not?
31:16 Lizzie Bassett? And this was a bold choice for a family that was already in for a major, major culture shock. So the kids, they had not watched much or any TV or movies. They had never been to school. River even said, quote, "Before I came back to America, I thought features were Kellogg's commercials and cartoons. Then I saw a Western and I thought that companies paid people's families to kill them. I just believed it." So on top of having unusual names and being vegan, they also had none of the same cultural references as the other kids. They were very easy targets for bullies at school. And at home, they were treated as equals. Arlen said that she treated the children more like friends than children. And quote, "It was never like we know better because we're the parents.
31:59 Lizzie Bassett? It was more like, this is the first time we've ever done this too. What do you think?" And the children were so wise. If we made a mistake, we made it together.
32:07 Speaker 03 Hey, I just don't, it's, hey, just this idea of all of this is- You have to be in control. Yeah, kids, kids are wrong. They don't know stuff.
32:15 Speaker 02 Honestly, I don't think River Phoenix was ever old enough to be right.
32:19 Speaker 03 Yeah, he never got to right age.
32:20 Speaker 02 I think like 26 is like when you could start actually talking to someone in respect.
32:25 Speaker 03 I don't think you're ever correct until you're 30.
32:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
32:28 Lizzie Bassett? I think that's probably true. Well, and let's get into this because, you know, the children of God stuff, it's fascinating. It's very salacious. But I think where we actually get into the, the truly sad stuff about River Phoenix is here, and it is singular to his family. So they left the cult. They changed their name to Phoenix to signify a rebirth for the whole family. But they still had very strong unifying beliefs. Arlen, no vaccines, no medication. I'll just leave that there. But she had a vision that her kids would, quote, "captivate the world." These parents are, from day one, banking on the kids making it big. They kept performing at talent shows and county fairs. And in 1979, they did start to get noticed. Eight-year-old River and six-year-old Rain's rendition of "Ya Gotta Be a Baby,"
33:13 Lizzie Bassett? a "Children of God" song, won first place at the Hernando Fiesta, a cultural event in Spring Hill, Florida. And Arlen mailed the article out to family and friends, which included actress and future director Penny Marshall, who happened to be an old classmate of Arlen's.
33:28 Speaker 03 Weird.
33:29 Lizzie Bassett? Penny Marshall passed it along to the casting department at Paramount, and they sent a letter back to Arlen. Now, according to River, the letter basically said, quote, "Yeah, we'd be happy to see your children. If you're ever in California, by all means, look us up, but don't make a special trip." And so, of course, we just threw everything into the old station wagon and drove out to Burbank.
33:49 Chris Winterbauer? It's so interesting, too, because, like, obviously, from day one, it seems like what they were, they were looking for a purpose, right, Arlen and John? But they know that whatever it is, they don't have it. But maybe their kids will have it. And so, like, "Children of God" gave them that purpose to their children at first. And so, it feels like such a natural segue to move into the classic Hollywood parent sort of role, where, like, my child will become the vehicle through which all of my dreams, you know, are realized.
34:15 Speaker 03 Well, she was already, she was calling him Moses by the time he was born.
34:18 Chris Winterbauer? Exactly. And which David Berg had also called himself, you know, Moses before that.
34:22 Speaker 03 That's why they called them the Moe letters.
34:24 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah.
34:24 Chris Winterbauer? Right. Yeah. And so, it's just, it's so Hollywood-y, and it's a cult, too. And so, and especially around child actors. And this is that siren song. And I know they're saying, like, if it's ever convenient, blah, blah, blah, but like, they do these giant nationwide casting calls.
34:40 Lizzie Bassett? Exactly. And, you know, much to the bottoms of now Phoenix's surprise, when they got there, Paramount had no interest in actually meeting with them. But they just stayed. And the kids started busking again. The family was moving around a lot, sometimes staying with John's aunt in LA. But everything changed when they met talent agent Iris Burton. She said, quote, "They came to me when they were little children, the whole family. I've had them since River was, like, nine. He was the most beautiful child you've ever seen, a little Elvis. They all got different names. Who the hell knows? Heart, Liberty, Summer. Every week, they're changing. Earth, Wind & Fire."
35:12 Speaker 03 Wow. I love this lady. These people don't give a...
35:17 Speaker 03 Agents are just, they're just the most evil people in the world.
35:19 Speaker 02 Well, I remember as a child, like, reading, like, not Highlights, but a different, like, kids magazine, and there was like, there was like, a whole thing about the Phoenix family.
35:28 Speaker 03 Playboy Jr.
35:28 Speaker 02 Yes, yeah, but there were a whole thing about the, and everyone loved that there were so many of them. They loved that they had weird names, and it actually kind of fucking helped them.
35:36 Speaker 03 No, it was a whole marketing thing that they flipped into.
35:39 Chris Winterbauer? It's also, that's true, so many institutions, you think about colleges and stuff, like, everybody loves the idea of the, oh, there's more of you? Great, there's more that we can take advantage of. Like, oh, it's more likely you're gonna donate to us. Oh, if, if this one burns out, we'll replace the bulb with the newer version.
35:53 Lizzie Bassett? Exactly.
35:53 Chris Winterbauer? Exactly. It's so cynical.
35:54 Lizzie Bassett? It is, and she signed River on the spot. He started booking commercials, like, Ocean's Bay Cranberry Juice, Mitsubishi, but after one year, he said, no more commercials, I'm done. He explained that they felt too phony. He said, quote, "Who owns the product? I mean, are they supporting apartheid? I just didn't like the whole thing. Even though it was helping us pay the rent, how could I tell anybody to drink canned cranberry juice? I didn't drink it. I didn't believe in what I was saying." And he's basically saying, like, he's starting to actually appreciate the craft of acting. Again, he is a child at this point, so, you know, it's impressive.
36:26 Speaker 02 It's pretty cool and grounded to hear that, yeah.
36:27 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a lot. It's like, it's more just being like, well, you know, you reckon, get back out there, kid.
36:33 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah, I mean, that's basically what the talent agent is saying. She's like, I don't even know what a vegan is. Can you please do this ad for McDonald's? And he said, no.
36:41 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah, wow.
36:42 Chris Winterbauer? Well, and his dad's moral awakening extended to, like, maybe the president's not a bad guy, but it stops well before telling people to drink grape juice. Son, you need to get out there and huck that grape juice.
36:51 Speaker 03 Get the fucking shit together. Grapes did nothing. Grapes did nothing.
36:54 Lizzie Bassett? As I think we're gonna learn, it is less his father that's pushing him into all of this than it is his mother. So, roughly a year passed, he kept auditioning, all five of the kids kept up with their music, busking on the streets. Now, his first on-screen role was a TV show called Fantasy, but his first big acting role was as Guthrie McFadden on a CBS series called Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. The audience loved River. Yeah, showrunners end up expanding his role. It did get canceled after one season, but it marks the beginning of his career in Hollywood, and also all the problems that would come with it because his parents were his managers.
37:32 Speaker 03 Yeah.
37:34 Speaker 02 That always works.
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38:47 Lizzie Bassett? Now, John was often the one on set, and according to some sources, he did struggle with alcohol. As for Arlen, people described her as a typical stage mother, very pushy. But River insisted that he was doing exactly what he wanted to do. However, the woman who owned the property where Seven Brides was filmed later said that River seemed, quote, "as if he had the weight of providing for his family on his little shoulders." He did. And as we will learn, he absolutely did. So his first theatrically released movie was Explorers, co-starring a young Ethan Hawke. And Ethan Hawke also says that River once told him he was going to become rich and famous and that he was doing it for his family.
39:26 Chris Winterbauer? It's a great movie, too.
39:26 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah.
39:27 Chris Winterbauer? Really fun.
39:27 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah.
39:28 Chris Winterbauer? I think that's why he worked so well in Stand by Me. Is like that...
39:31 Lizzie Bassett? Yes.
39:31 Chris Winterbauer? His character in Stand by Me feels as close to his real personages you'll find across his filmography. And I just think that's why that's much... Remains my favorite, you know, film of his. I think it's such... it suits him so well.
39:44 Lizzie Bassett? A hundred percent. He's wonderful in it. But he really struggled interacting with any kids that weren't in his immediate family, which I think is the case for all of these kids in the Phoenix family.
39:55 Speaker 03 Yeah, of course.
39:56 Lizzie Bassett? Because they didn't have any of the same references. Like, they had no idea.
39:59 Chris Winterbauer? But that's the same thing with all these kids that grow up on TV shows. You know, Millie Bobby Brown recently was explaining, you know, I grew up inside the bubble of Stranger Things. And so I have no points of reference with anyone my age. All of my contacts have been with people older than me. And now that I've grown up, people won't allow me to grow up. They simply want me to continue doing, you know, roles that are too young for me, et cetera. Which I know River, I think that's why River Phoenix turned down Young Indiana Jones, the series. After he had done Last Crusade was he said, you look, I'm done with TV. I'm done with young roles. I want to grow up. I want to grow up. And then you get things like Dark Blood, et cetera, for better or worse.
40:35 Lizzie Bassett? Right. So his next big role after Explorers was, of course, Stand By Me, third movie Rob Reiner directed. Rest in peace. We love Rob Reiner. It made $52 million against an $8 million budget.
40:48 Speaker 03 Huge.
40:48 Speaker 02 Wow.
40:49 Lizzie Bassett? Yes.
40:50 Speaker 02 I wonder if Penny Marshall helped get him the part.
40:53 Lizzie Bassett? I don't know, because there is the Rob Reiner connection. I was wondering that, too.
40:56 Chris Winterbauer? Yeah.
40:56 Lizzie Bassett? But he turned 15 while making this movie. And it is unfortunately when he started dabbling in weed and alcohol with his co-star, Corey Feldman.
41:04 Speaker 03 He's got no problems. I just feel like Corey Feldman, you figure that somebody wholesome like that would have really helped him out.
41:10 Lizzie Bassett? Corey Feldman is so cute, though. Like, do you remember how cute he was as a child actor?
41:14 Speaker 03 He was an incredible child. I actually think that Corey Feldman, of all of them, oddly enough, was the best child actor.
41:21 Lizzie Bassett? I agree with you.
41:22 Chris Winterbauer? Yeah, he was, he stole that movie, I think.
41:25 Lizzie Bassett? I think he's fantastic.
41:26 Speaker 03 He's an amazing actor.
41:27 Speaker 02 Gremlins, The Bergs, fucking, you know, the Friday the 13th, he's amazing in. He was great. And maybe he'd be a little more normal if all of his friends didn't die when he was a child.
41:38 Speaker 03 But also, there's a lot of stories about whether or not he did weird stuff, too.
41:43 Lizzie Bassett? Oh, no.
41:43 Speaker 02 Hurt people, hurt people.
41:44 Speaker 03 Great kid actor. Great kid actor.
41:48 Lizzie Bassett? All right. Okay, so Arlen, his mother, at some point, when he was still pretty young, hired a 20-something nanny, which affectionately stood for new age, non-nuclear use, just so you know, named Larry McHale, who was basically a glorified housekeeper, supposed to look after and befriend River. And Larry did his job, but he did also take River to hang out with his much older friends. And it was during one of these hangouts that River allegedly first saw one of Larry's friends using cocaine. By the way, Larry does appear in that Joaquin Phoenix mockumentary, I'm Still Here. So he appears to still be a part of the Phoenix family. Yeah. Now, she also hired a tutor named Ed Squires, who quickly determined River almost certainly had dyslexia, which it's pretty much for sure he did.
42:34 Lizzie Bassett? But Arlen didn't want to hear about it and refused to seek any additional help for River because he was booked and busy. From 1986 to 1990, he had major roles in six more movies, three of which were filmed back to back in 1986. Now, they did not perform super well at the box office, but every single time, his acting was praised and he was being hailed as the next up and coming actor. And as you pointed out, Ed, he did get an Oscar nomination for Sidney Lumet's Running on Empty. Got great reviews for it. And of course, people can't stop talking about the fact that he's a vegan, he's talking about his activism all the time. You know, he's really becoming a poster boy for like this pure, perfect child at this point.
43:18 Chris Winterbauer? And he's also kind of, he's kind of like an early, he's kind of an indie film star.
43:23 Lizzie Bassett? Yes.
43:23 Chris Winterbauer? Like Darling, too. You know what I mean? Through the screen, he's had studio success, but he's also doing all these indie roles. He's, I mean, later with My Own Private Idaho.
43:31 Speaker 03 He's trying to position himself. Yeah, he's trying to be like an actor's actor. Like you can tell.
43:36 Chris Winterbauer? Yes.
43:36 Speaker 03 He's making interesting choices. He's doing interesting things. I just, again, I think that what you said is correct, is that we just didn't get to see him grow to the age where he really sold out and sucked for a little while. Because everybody does. Everybody's got to sell out and suck for a while. It's called life.
43:51 Speaker 02 And what happened to Otis Redding and Jimi Hendrix?
43:53 Speaker 03 Everybody, every, oh yeah, Jimi Hendrix was gonna put out a very bad rap album.
43:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:01 Speaker 03 Like there was going to happen.
44:02 Chris Winterbauer? You think about someone like, like Robert Downey Jr., right? In a weird way, he avoided that because of like the drug induced like sabbatical to his career, right? That happened. And so he then just gets the comeback story with Iron Man after that, which that's like an interesting counter example.
44:18 Speaker 03 Yes, that is, it's interesting how careers, I do think, work like that, where like, it's all about timing, what you do. Zach Galifianakis was everywhere and then everybody got sick of him and even he knew, it's like, I'm walking away. And then he can, now he does whatever he wants.
44:33 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah. Well, so in terms of River, publicly, he was having this pretty meteoric rise. Privately, he was struggling with it quite a lot. He didn't really know how to handle the attention that was on him. And he also confessed that he had been exposed privately to a lot more than his parents knew. By this point, though, he was no longer living in LA. He and his family had moved to Gainesville, Florida in 1987, and this seems to be at his father's urging. I think his dad was, was beginning to get concerned about the biz, as it were, in Hollywood. And he wanted to remove the kids as much as he could. And his father seemed to have been on to something because it was revealed there had been cocaine on the set of The Mosquito Coast.
45:16 Lizzie Bassett? But River insisted he didn't know anything about it, didn't know who had brought it. And he was really promoting a very squeaky clean image to the press. He was literally saying to journalists, like, I have no interest in drugs, you know, I'm not attracted to it. It's not something I could do. But privately, his then-girlfriend Martha Plimpton told a very different story. According to her, he was drinking and smoking regularly as well as dabbling in cocaine and mushrooms.
45:40 Speaker 03 I mean, he's fucking 18 years old.
45:42 Lizzie Bassett? I know, I know.
45:43 Speaker 03 He's a millionaire. I mean, of course he is.
45:45 Lizzie Bassett? I know.
45:46 Speaker 03 Yeah, look at, that's not crazy. It's only looking back that he died that everyone's, it all seems so much more ominous. It's just actually an extremely normal behavior for somebody that also was a part of a giant child fucking cult that just so happened to somehow survive. And then he got thrown in the next child fucking cult called Hollywood.
46:02 Lizzie Bassett? Right. So just before he turned 19, to your point, Ed, yeah, he's 18 years old, his highest grossing film, Indiana Jones. Jones and the Last Crusade was released. At this point, he bought land in Costa Rica, which is where his father was now spending most of his time because again, his father had just completely fucked off out of there. He was like, I don't want anything to do with Hollywood. I don't love that my kids are involved in this. Meanwhile, River Phoenix is not only financially supporting his family, but also a group of family, friends and relatives at the house in Gainesville, Florida. And Rivers' friends apparently referred to them as Klingons. So these are like,
46:41 Speaker 03 That's Hollywood.
46:41 Lizzie Bassett? That's Hollywood.
46:42 Speaker 03 That's Hollywood.
46:43 Lizzie Bassett? He's a child. It's so weird.
46:45 Speaker 03 I know it's fucked up and it's weird, but it's normal in a weird way.
46:50 Chris Winterbauer? It's like, this is what every athlete, right, that makes it out of their town. It's this, this is why where all the millions go. They're supporting so many people.
46:57 Lizzie Bassett? Yes, but they're not his friends. It's like his mom's friends in their house.
47:02 Chris Winterbauer? It shouldn't happen. It gives no obligation to them.
47:04 Speaker 03 No, I agree.
47:05 Chris Winterbauer? But it should not happen, but it happens all the time.
47:08 Speaker 03 And it's also because these guys get guilted. They got, the guys that make it, especially when they first go.
47:13 Chris Winterbauer? We sacrificed so you could make it. You, you know.
47:16 Speaker 03 You're big, oh, so you're Hollywood now and you can't help us? We're your, we may not be family, but we could be considered family. And oh, you're Mr. Big Time Hollywood. When I was on Heroes Reborn, when I was, the people that hit me up for money when I got that job was so funny. It was so funny to think I had money like that at that time. And the people that came out of the woodwork when I got that job. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. It's very, oh, no, they come for you.
47:48 Lizzie Bassett? Wow. I think the thing to me here that that is like a next level on top of this though, is that I don't even know that they're coming for him so much as they are his mother. And I, I think like she is the main source of pressure on him at this point to continue.
48:04 Chris Winterbauer? Well, she probably cashed a lot of checks that she couldn't actually clear early on.
48:09 Lizzie Bassett? She did. And also to her credit, she hustled. Like she, she was working a bunch of jobs and yeah.
48:14 Chris Winterbauer? No, I'm sure she did, but I'm just saying she probably, she probably traded a lot of favors. Then a lot of people came back and said, okay, now it's time for you to pay us back.
48:23 Speaker 03 Also, I gotta say, it's not like there's less cocaine in Florida and Costa Rica.
48:30 Speaker 03 Yeah, you're just going closer to the cocaine. That's where the cocaine lives.
48:34 Lizzie Bassett? It's getting better. Yeah.
48:36 Chris Winterbauer? His dad literally pulls a mosquito coast.
48:38 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah.
48:39 Chris Winterbauer? River had done mosquito coast and then his dad's like, I think what Harrison Ford's character did in this movie is spot on. I'm just gonna do that.
48:45 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah.
48:45 Chris Winterbauer? And then he just leaves for Costa Rica.
48:47 Lizzie Bassett? He just, he just bailed. So from 1991 to 93, Phoenix had major roles in six more movies, though only five would be released during that period. But one in particular seems to have made a real impression on him, which was My Own Private Idaho. It is a loose retelling, as I remember, of Shakespeare. I think it's Henry the Fourth and Henry the Fifth.
49:07 Speaker 02 Okay.
49:08 Lizzie Bassett? Very loose. It stars River Phoenix and Keanu Reeves. Those are the two most recognizable people in it. They do play male sex workers. You know, it's interesting. I don't know that River Phoenix's performance in this is as remarkable as it's maybe remembered. I actually think Keanu Reeves is and stands out to me a bit more.
49:29 Speaker 02 I always thought that Keanu was a better actor. Honestly, he kind of shows me more even after watching what I watched of Dark Blood. I was like, Keanu actually, except for Dracula.
49:40 Lizzie Bassett? I love Dracula. I know it's that, but.
49:44 Speaker 03 I love Dracula.
49:45 Speaker 02 He's bad in Point Break.
49:46 Speaker 03 He's bad in lots of movies. I'm thinking about his performance in Dracula. He's great in Point Break.
49:52 Speaker 02 Point Break?
49:52 Speaker 03 No. He's great in Point Break.
49:54 Speaker 02 What are we talking about? He's awful.
49:55 Speaker 03 You're wrong.
49:56 Lizzie Bassett? No, yeah, you are wrong.
49:57 Speaker 02 Anyone, it's like, there's like a whole successful show out here in Hollywood.
50:02 Speaker 03 Tell the boys wrong.
50:04 Speaker 02 Where they like get anyone to play Keanu's part against like a whole cast of people.
50:09 Speaker 03 Tell the boys wrong.
50:12 Speaker 02 It's all right. James Cameron secretly directed it anyway.
50:15 Chris Winterbauer? I, I don't know. I just think, I think this movie is more notable because it was Gus Van Sant and like.
50:20 Lizzie Bassett? Right.
50:20 Chris Winterbauer? It's like a beautiful, like kind of road trip vibe. But if you compare it to something like, like, I don't know. I think of like John Voight and Dustin Hoffman in Midnight Cowboy or something like that. I don't think the performances come anywhere near. You know, some of the other landmarks.
50:33 Lizzie Bassett? No, Midnight Cowboy is a, it's just a better.
50:36 Speaker 02 It's a special film.
50:37 Chris Winterbauer? Yeah.
50:37 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah.
50:38 Chris Winterbauer? Yes.
50:38 Lizzie Bassett? I mean, My Own Private Idaho, it was shocking and I think surprising ways. It's not even that it's like particularly gratuitous or anything. It is, it's a weird vibe. It's an interesting vibe. I liked it. But you know, it's a, it's a bold choice for River Phoenix to be making at this point, and it does make splash for him. And again, he played a male sex worker opposite Keanu Reeves, and in preparation for the role, he hung out with real sex workers. And he did start experimenting at this point with heroin. He was reportedly caught drunk driving, but the production may have helped keep it under wraps. And in between projects, he was touring with his band and also going through periods of binging mostly cocaine weed and alcohol. And then like, you know, cold hard quitting, and then he would go back to it again.
51:22 Lizzie Bassett? The rumor around town was that he was earning close to a million dollars per movie at this point, but that money was not going back into his pocket. He told Rolling Stone about the arrangement at home, quote, "We just share. It's complete equality. It's a complete sharing thing. All the kids play a huge part in the democracy we have. There's nothing dictated. There's nothing set up. It's free."
51:43 Chris Winterbauer? Also, agent manager lawyer, 25% plus taxes, like, yeah, I don't think River Phoenix himself has very much money at all.
51:52 Speaker 02 But I know, he's also River Phoenix, and he ain't paying for shit when he goes out either, especially back then. And he's like, and he's hanging out with the chili peppers. He's like, you know, it's, it's very, it's, it's hard, but it's easy, you know, in a weird way.
52:06 Lizzie Bassett? Yes, but I think as we're going to learn, because of the financial situation that was set up with his dependencies, he does not have a lot of financial independence or agency of his own. So as we pointed out-
52:17 Chris Winterbauer? That's the point. Everybody's heat, and also because he doesn't have that day to day transactional experience with money, he's just been distanced from his own money repeatedly, right?
52:26 Lizzie Bassett? All his entire life.
52:28 Chris Winterbauer? Or he's paying for something. He is not the actual one controlling the transactions that are happening in any instance. And so therefore he has no control over anything financial in his own life.
52:39 Speaker 02 Agreed.
52:40 Lizzie Bassett? So in 1992, Phoenix starred in Sneakers opposite Robert Redford, Dan Aykroyd, Sidney Poitier, and many, many more. It was one of his most commercially successful films. He is at the top of his game. That same year, a journalist saw River and a handful of other young actors shooting up in the bathroom of the Roxy. And this guy called up Paul Peterson, who was a former child star. He'd started a support group called A Minor Concern. And like at this point, many of River's friends had before, Paul Peterson tried to intervene. He showed up at River Phoenix's hotel room. Knocked on the door, Phoenix opened the door just enough to see who was there and then said, "I don't even eat meat. I don't need your help." But by the time he was shooting The Thing Called Love in 1993, nobody was willing to intervene,
53:25 Lizzie Bassett? not even his mother. Iris Burton's assistant, Chris Snyder, says he met River in his hotel room to discuss future projects, and River Phoenix yelled, "I don't want to work anymore. You can tell Iris and my mother. My passion is my music." And then just moments later, quote, "I have to work. After all these years, I still don't have enough money to just say fuck you to this town. The band is expensive, so is Costa Rica." Snyder also claims that River then asked how he could get a bank account that was only under his name. He talked about disappearing for a while, going to college, and picking movies that his grandkids would be proud of. Finally, according to Snyder, River said, quote, "I don't even like this business anymore. I don't know if I ever liked it. I wasn't exactly given a choice."
54:09 Speaker 02 I feel like he would have ended up being a great guy if he lived.
54:12 Lizzie Bassett? I think so, too.
54:14 Chris Winterbauer? I think he already was. Like, the whole point is, somehow, he had a very grounded head on his shoulders, despite being surrounded by the most outlandish ideas from birth, which most people, you would just be indoctrinated into these things. Like, I think if I had been born as River Phoenix, I would be trying to flirty-fish Lizzie into the children of God right now, because I don't have his fortitude. But clearly, he could see, this is right, this is wrong. I think Phoenix proved to have his priorities in the right place, like, from a very young age.
54:45 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah.
54:46 Chris Winterbauer? But then unfortunately, there were all of these vices that come with the business, and he's under this immense pressure. And so the way that you decompress, you know, becomes drugs.
54:56 Lizzie Bassett? That's the thing. It's just the stress. Like, this is not a normal amount of stress for a child to have ever been under, and he has been under it since he was, like, four years old.
55:05 Speaker 02 Yes.
55:07 Lizzie Bassett? So shortly after his birthday, River and his siblings visited his dad in Costa Rica, and his father urged River to stay. He was like, please don't go back to Hollywood, just stay with me here. We don't need more money. We're done. But River had signed on to make Dark Blood, and he had committed to Interview with the Vampire.
55:26 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah, cuz he was supposed to be-
55:29 Lizzie Bassett? Christian Slater's part.
55:31 Chris Winterbauer? Oh, Christian Slater. Oh, so it would've been him and Keanu again.
55:34 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah.
55:34 Chris Winterbauer? Oh, no, Keanu was Dracula.
55:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
55:36 Lizzie Bassett? It would've been him and Brad Pitt.
55:37 Chris Winterbauer? But Brad Pitt had- and Brad Pitt was starting to beat him out for roles. Brad Pitt had beat him out for A River Runs Through It.
55:43 Speaker 03 I think that Brad Pitt's a better actor.
55:45 Chris Winterbauer? Of course he is. But we don't know what it would've ended up being. No, I know. Lizzie will do an hour with you separately on Brad Pitt.
55:53 Lizzie Bassett? I'll fight with you about how bad I think Brad Pitt is in Interview with the Vampire. I think he-
55:56 Chris Winterbauer? Oh, he's bad?
55:57 Lizzie Bassett? Is horrible in that movie.
55:59 Speaker 03 Interview, I think, is one of his weakest movies, but he'd go on to be a pretty boy that does amazing character work.
56:07 Chris Winterbauer? I agree with you. Lizzie does not.
56:09 Lizzie Bassett? I don't know if I agree. I'm on the fence about it.
56:12 Chris Winterbauer? Moneyball. I rest my case.
56:13 Speaker 03 Burn After Reading.
56:14 Speaker 02 Moneyball is phenomenal.
56:15 Speaker 03 Burn After Reading. He's amazing in Burn After Reading.
56:17 Chris Winterbauer? He's so funny.
56:18 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah, I love him. And Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, I unabashedly loved.
56:22 Lizzie Bassett? That's true. That's true. He is great in that. I don't know. He makes me mad, but I-
56:27 Chris Winterbauer? We'll get back on track.
56:28 Speaker 03 I get it, though. He's not a nice guy. He's not a nice guy.
56:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, he sucks as a human.
56:32 Speaker 03 Yeah, exactly. I thought Sean Penn gave the best performance of the entire year. Is he a piece of shit? Yes.
56:39 Lizzie Bassett? I'm glad you said it, not me.
56:41 Chris Winterbauer? Man, we're losing potential guests left and right.
56:44 Lizzie Bassett? I'm not booking Sean Penn or Brad Pitt.
56:46 Speaker 03 He's great in it. He's obviously great in the movie. He's just not a good guy.
56:50 Lizzie Bassett? Yes.
56:50 Chris Winterbauer? We lost Mel Gibson a few months ago.
56:55 Speaker 03 You know, we just gotta all decide what movies we like, huh?
56:57 Speaker 02 There's plenty of bad men who are extremely talented. You know, both things can be true.
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58:17 Lizzie Bassett? So he had signed on, as we said, to do Dark Blood, which was directed by George Slizer. Let's talk a little bit about this production, because it was a disaster. Judy Davis, who stars alongside Jonathan Pryce and River Phoenix, did not get along with Slizer at all. And when River Phoenix, who, again, like, he's very used to being a peacemaker in his family and in his career, he tried to intervene and work things out between them. And she basically turns all of her vitriol on him. She would refer to him exclusively as frat boy and publicly said that she believed he was using drugs at the time. Slizer, however, swears without a doubt that Phoenix was completely clean during the shoot. Robbie, you look at him, he is emaciated. He looks horrible in that movie.
59:01 Lizzie Bassett? And he's not doing a good job either. No, he's not. But so you talk about how he looks unhealthy. He was going super method with his diet. He was eating like artichokes and cactus, because he's like, this is all I'd be eating in the desert. Sure, sure, sure, sure. He looks like a mess. I don't think we can say for sure either way, whether he was using something during this. And the timelines that some of his friends and family have backed up, he may not have been. Because he was like getting clean for long periods, falling back into something, getting clean again.
59:32 Speaker 02 And my understanding, it was like his second girlfriend said that, uh, he was just like, he was boozing like crazy and not doing that many drugs back then. And that might be what led to him dying.
59:44 Speaker 03 Having the overdose because he had lowered his tolerance and then he went back. That's what they always say.
59:48 Chris Winterbauer? That seems more consistent, right? With the typical overdose progression is like you, it's the relapse that can be really harmful.
59:55 Speaker 03 Oh, that's what kills you because you go clean and then you go back to the old amount that you were using before, and then it's too much for your body to take.
1:00:03 Lizzie Bassett? Right. And we also mentioned like, look, this is not a great performance. It's not a good movie. I don't believe it ever would have been a good movie. He was having a horrible time on this. I don't think that we can necessarily hold this performance against him or his talent. He had all of these massively long monologues and he was struggling with them hugely. Because again, he's dyslexic and has never received any kind of treatment for it. Because his mom was like, ah, you're fine. And Slyther, by his own admission, was basically like, I don't care that you have a learning disability. You gotta say the lines. So he's having a terrible time.
1:00:39 Speaker 02 Actors, you know, Whoopi Goldberg's dyslexic, Tom Cruise is dyslexic.
1:00:43 Chris Winterbauer? But you know, Lizzie, the, the, the thing about Dark Blood that I think is so, I do think it's, I think it's River Phoenix trying to find a different type of character for himself, right?
1:00:53 Lizzie Bassett? Totally. It's not working, but he's trying.
1:00:55 Chris Winterbauer? No, and he did a similar thing in the Sam Shepard movie around the same time. He plays like the same type of character, like pseudo Native American, you know, like dead wife. This movie, it seems so obvious to me that this role was written for a native actor. And, and it, if you put Eric Schweig, right? We just talked about him, put him in this role where Eric Schweig is so wonderfully inscrutable, right? That like his face can go from menace to charm in a moment. And it's sometimes you can't tell because it's hiding in between. That's what this character needs.
1:01:30 Chris Winterbauer? River Phoenix has many talents. That is not one of them.
1:01:32 Lizzie Bassett? No.
1:01:32 Chris Winterbauer? And so the movie's a mess. I don't think it ever would have worked. I think the script is a mess. I think it's clearly being directed by someone who is not from the United States. And George Slizer has an amazing movie called The Vanishing from 1988, which is like one of the best banality of evil movies of all time. And is very similar to this in like, you know, couple on a road trip, like weird third party intervening. So I just think so much of this is not coming together.
1:01:53 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah, I agree.
1:01:54 Speaker 02 I was just thinking about like, because we said how like aggravating Judy Davis was on set. And I just recently watched The Ref and you say that's her, Kevin Spacey and Dennis Leary. Imagine how annoying that set was.
1:02:10 Speaker 03 Oh, such a bitch-a-thon happening at that set. Oh my God.
1:02:17 Lizzie Bassett? To be a fly on the wall. Well, this set was a mess, not just because of her. Jonathan Pryce said every day there was some kind of difficulty, including things like Slizer's director's chair just falling off a cliff after he got out of it. Judy Davis would do things like she would purposely distract River Phoenix during the long monologues that he was already struggling with. It's just, it's bizarre. He apparently said to Jonathan Pryce, somebody's going to die on this film. And when he found out he was going to be working with a dead snake, he absolutely freaked out. He locked himself in a trailer and asked for a death certificate proving they hadn't murdered the snake, which they were not able to provide.
1:02:56 Speaker 02 I mean, good on him.
1:02:58 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's just one of those where it's just like, I think it's good.
1:03:02 Speaker 02 You can't kill a bug on camera.
1:03:04 Speaker 03 No.
1:03:05 Speaker 02 It's just how it is.
1:03:06 Speaker 03 They did it. He killed a huge turtle. Remember Cannibal Holocaust?
1:03:09 Speaker 02 Yes, because that was such a respectable production.
1:03:12 Speaker 03 It was a big deal. It was a big movie in Italy. It was a big movie.
1:03:16 Lizzie Bassett? So he did admit to a friend on the shoot that he was, quote, "having a hard time keeping his head above water in this crazy business." And finally, when they wrapped in New Mexico and everyone was headed back to LA, and remember, they still have to shoot all of the interiors, Phoenix said to Slizer, quote, "I'm going back to the bad, bad town." There were still three weeks of production left on Dark Blood when River went out the night before Halloween to the Viper Room. Devil's night. That's right. Devil's night.
1:03:42 Speaker 02 Have you been to Viper Room?
1:03:44 Lizzie Bassett? No.
1:03:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:03:45 Speaker 03 It's awesome. It's surprisingly small.
1:03:48 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, so is the Roxy and the whiskey. They're all right next to each other.
1:03:51 Lizzie Bassett? That makes sense because the Viper Room was not, I mean, it is kind of known because of this. It was not like an enormous venue at this point at all.
1:04:00 Speaker 03 No, it's extremely small and it was just because it was owned by Johnny Depp.
1:04:03 Lizzie Bassett? Right.
1:04:04 Speaker 03 And I remember that being a whole thing and.
1:04:06 Speaker 02 Well, he sold the steak.
1:04:08 Speaker 03 I love this. I love the Sunset Strip though.
1:04:09 Speaker 02 Johnny Depp don't own it no more and then he used to keep it closed every October 30th. Yeah, for in honor of River.
1:04:17 Lizzie Bassett? Yep. In 1993, on October 30th, River, Joaquin Rain and River's then girlfriend Samantha Mathis walked into the Viper Room. They planned to watch River's friends, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, perform. Now, many sources claim that he was originally just going to drop off his siblings and leave, but he changed his mind when he heard that the Chili Peppers would be performing and wanted him to come join them.
1:04:40 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah. I mean, think about how cool fucking venue that is too. It's such a small place to see them.
1:04:45 Lizzie Bassett? And he's like very close friends with them.
1:04:47 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, it's the best. Johnny Depp's sitting there.
1:04:50 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah. According to Mathis, she said, "I didn't see anyone doing drugs, but he was high in a way that made me feel uncomfortable. I was in way over my head." Now, some sources claim that he went to the bathroom, snorted heroin that one of his friends had offered him, but others say it was a cup of dissolved speedball and he drank it in one gulp in his table at the club. Regardless, in every account, the friend who offers him either the drink or the drugs said, "Try this. It'll make you feel fabulous." River pretty much immediately threw up, asked what his friend had given him, and then took a Valium to try and calm himself down. He moved outside and very quickly wound up laying on the sidewalk, having a seizure. Joaquin Phoenix called 911. There's a very upsetting 911 call. I'm not going to play.
1:05:34 Speaker 02 Oh.
1:05:35 Lizzie Bassett? But by the time the paramedics arrived, River Phoenix was dead.
1:05:38 Speaker 02 Flea was there and Flea went and Flea got into the ambulance with him and rode it to the hospital.
1:05:43 Lizzie Bassett? Right. The story was all over the news, including unfortunately, the recording of Joaquin Phoenix's 911 call. That was basically Joaquin Phoenix's introduction to the world, was the 911 call that he made when his brother was dying in front of him. Some person snuck into the funeral home, took a photo of the body, sold it to the National Enquirer.
1:06:03 Speaker 02 That shit used to happen all the time back then. It's so crazy. Tupac, Chris Farley, we had to see all those bodies.
1:06:10 Lizzie Bassett? It was horrible. But this made such an impression on people because he had made it so much his image that he didn't do drugs or drink or anything. He was this, you know, poster boy for health and wellness. And here he was having overdosed on the sidewalk outside the Viper Room. At one of his memorials, the Klingons spoke about him in a way that deeply offended his ex-girlfriends, including Martha Plimpton. Plimpton said the people who were saying this felt tremendous guilt that they had contributed to his death. Actor Bradley Gregg, who played his older brother in Stand By Me, apparently jumped up and yelled, "River didn't have to die to be free" at the funeral. His father was devastated, said that if he had only been in Hollywood, he could have saved him. Well, sir,
1:06:52 Lizzie Bassett? that was a choice you made. And John, his father, told the interviewer who he believed was responsible for River's death. Now, they opted not to print the name, but here's what he said. "A well-known former rock star. He's only 23, the same age as River was when he died, but he has a lot on his shoulders. I want him to know I think he's scum. You can do that for me. Print it and let him see it. He insinuated himself into my son's life, and River was too sweet to eject him. River was moving away from drugs and was actually trying to get this guy off of heroin himself. Now, we will never know for sure. There is a theory as to who this was that provided the drugs. I'm sure you guys can guess.
1:07:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, John Frashante. He got kicked out of the Chili Peppers for an album, too. Yeah. At the same exact time.
1:07:38 Lizzie Bassett? Yes. Bingo.
1:07:39 Speaker 02 Yeah. And then they had to go get Navarro for, for an album.
1:07:43 Lizzie Bassett? Right.
1:07:44 Speaker 02 And then like, wow, that wasn't a great album. Let's get him back. Let's get the junkie back.
1:07:50 Lizzie Bassett? The day after River passed away, the producers and director of Dark Blood reportedly told everyone on set they were being let go. And then three weeks later, they officially let go of the project entirely. Now, it's worth noting, this was the same year as Brandon Lee's death on The Crow, which of course, they did finish that, but what was missing from The Crow was much, much easier to replace than what was missing from Dark Blood.
1:08:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, like stunt shots, and it's like, he had done all the scenes already.
1:08:15 Lizzie Bassett? Yes. They were replacing stunt shots, they were replacing, you know, like, a shot of him standing in a window. They weren't replacing major character scenes. Unfortunately, because of how miserable Judy Davis had been to River Phoenix, he had asked to postpone all of the love scenes, because he was like, "I don't even want to touch her, I need time to calm down." So Dark Blood was missing massive chunks that fully required River Phoenix's face, acting, lines, everything. They did not have the technology to do this at this point. So Dark Blood belonged to the insurance company, and they reportedly paid out $5.7 million and then put the film in storage. They also sued his estate for breach of contract, which is just like, okay.
1:08:55 Speaker 02 River Phoenix's estate?
1:08:56 Lizzie Bassett? Yes.
1:08:57 Speaker 02 Because he died?
1:08:57 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah.
1:08:58 Speaker 02 Yeah. I guess, I guess, yeah, I guess so. That sucks.
1:09:02 Lizzie Bassett? It does suck. There was a second suit for Interview with the Vampire also. That one was dismissed, I think, because they were able to replace him. But a couple of years later, Slyzer learned that the film was going to be completely destroyed. So he arranged to have it taken out of storage. He said that he had the full cooperation of the claims adjuster, but when that guy couldn't locate the key, Slyzer just broke the lock. And he basically stole back his own film.
1:09:25 Speaker 03 He's such a pain in the ass. Whoever did this is just like, this guy's like, "For this movie?"
1:09:31 Lizzie Bassett? I know.
1:09:31 Speaker 03 Not to be anything. We watched chunks of it. I watched the first 20 minutes of it, you watched it.
1:09:37 Speaker 02 It's a bad movie, but I will say, it's River Phoenix's last project, and your career isn't doing well.
1:09:43 Speaker 03 I could see that.
1:09:44 Speaker 02 Go get the movie that might get you back on the map. I see his motivation.
1:09:48 Speaker 03 But was it a good idea? Because it's a really weird way to do it.
1:09:52 Lizzie Bassett? I know. And he also, he had suffered an aneurysm sometime around 2008, and that's when he, like, really decided to finish the movie. In October 2011, The Hollywood Reporter announced that River Phoenix's final film was going to be released, and it claimed that George Slizer, who at this point was 79, had edited the footage and had plans to ask Joaquin to do voiceover work. That apparently did not actually ever happen. Joaquin Phoenix was like, I had no knowledge of this. We have no involvement in it. And of course, Slizer does the voiceover himself.
1:10:21 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's sick.
1:10:23 Speaker 02 And he would definitely say no also. He's so emotional. Yeah.
1:10:26 Lizzie Bassett? Yeah, there's no way.
1:10:28 Speaker 03 Can you imagine, honestly, honestly, someone says, hey, help me out. ADR your dead brother so that I can, so that I can pull my ass out of Hock. Right? Can you imagine that?
1:10:38 Chris Winterbauer? Well, it was considered for Shrek. They were considering having Chris Farley's brother to finish the film after Chris Farley died of a drug overdose.
1:10:47 Lizzie Bassett? Wait, they did do this with someone. Who did they do this with where they actually had a brother come in and finish certain scenes?
1:10:54 Speaker 03 Paul, what's his name from Fast and Furious?
1:10:56 Chris Winterbauer? Yes, Paul Walker. They used his brother to do the motion capture. Yeah. And I think-
1:11:00 Speaker 03 And I think it's reprehensible. I think it's ridiculous.
1:11:03 Lizzie Bassett? Well, obviously, Joaquin did not provide the voiceover. Slizer did it himself, added stills from the production. In 2012, Dark Blood was screened at the Netherlands Film Festival, a few more festivals in the US and abroad, but it didn't have a wide theatrical release. And I think we can all agree, it's not great. The Guardian wrote, "Phoenix's performance is as fragmentary and uneven as the film itself, but it has an energy about it that reminds us of why he seemed such a distinctive screen presence before his untimely death." And I want to end with a quote from Martha Plimpton, who appeared on Jesse Tyler Ferguson's podcast. She said, "He was not as equipped, I think, as maybe some other people might be to handle that stuff because he was a very at heart, very innocent, and a very driven by love human being.
1:11:47 Lizzie Bassett? So the contradictions of Hollywood and show business were much more difficult for him. I think he would have been an incredible advocate for sobriety and for people struggling with addiction. Unfortunately, it just got him before he had a chance to do that. But yes, I miss him every single day."
1:12:01 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah. I think that he would have been a very, very cool man.
1:12:05 Speaker 02 I mean, look at Joaquin and who he turned out to be. He's a fucking great man.
1:12:09 Speaker 03 Well, he had weird, he had a weird dip, but then-
1:12:11 Speaker 02 I mean, he's crazy. You know, but he's very, but he's a good man. You know, it's, you know, you could be two things.
1:12:17 Lizzie Bassett? Honestly, this story, obviously, like, it was interesting learning about River Phoenix, but it casts such a light on Joaquin Phoenix as well. Because, you know, and he's even said this, and he was just on Theo Von's podcast, and he was like- You know, I was the second son, like River Phoenix was the guiding light for the whole family. He was the Moses. He's the prophet. He's the chosen son. So for Joaquin, he was like, pressure was off me. You know, I was just following my brother. I was like hanging out. I was, you know, my life revolved around him. And then you watch him die on the sidewalk in front of you. And then what happens next?
1:12:52 Chris Winterbauer? Well, it's interesting. He kind of breaks out in these pseudo little brother roles, too. Like, if you think about even something like Gladiator, he has that energy. Or you think about signs, for example, younger, you know, and I think that I, I, look, you would never know. My guess would be that regardless of the circumstance, Joaquin actually had the greater talent of the two. I think Joaquin is an amazing actor. An amazing actor.
1:13:19 Lizzie Bassett? Interestingly, River Phoenix actually pointed out shortly before he died, he was like, hey, you're going to be a bigger star than I am, and you need to focus on this.
1:13:28 Chris Winterbauer? There's a movie that Joaquin Phoenix was in when he was young, and I can't remember the name, but he's having a phone call where he's speaking to his dad, who he wants to go live with, and his mom is listening, and he's trying to get his dad to take him to come live with him. And his dad basically says, no.
1:13:41 Lizzie Bassett? It's Parenthood.
1:13:42 Chris Winterbauer? Parenthood. That's what it is, right? And he turns to his mom, and he has to like, play it off, like he didn't. Yes. And he's. With Keanu Reeves. That's right. And he's so good in that scene. And he's so young. And you can just tell this guy, whatever it is, he has it. But anyway, back to, I will just briefly defend George Slizer's decision to release this movie, which I think it happens so, he was done with his career when this happened. He was dying, right? He died in 2014, I think. And at least when I watched it, the way that he set it up felt respectful, where he basically said, this is an incomplete film. I've done my best to add voiceover to the parts that are missing. I hope you enjoy it. Yeah, that was interesting. And that's it. And, and it doesn't, and it doesn't seem like they did it to try
1:14:25 Chris Winterbauer? to make money. It does seem, and I'm glad that they didn't ultimately ask Joaquin, hopefully, because I agree that's, it would be inappropriate. But I am glad that the movie's out there.
1:14:34 Speaker 02 I'm sure it was the biggest disappointment of that guy's life, the director. You know, was that the fact that this movie couldn't come out? And like, I will say, like, it was not the best movie, but back then, movies like this, like, oddly did well. I could see it, like, getting, like, some, like, noms just because.
1:14:50 Lizzie Bassett? It would have gotten some attention. I mean, like,
1:14:53 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:14:53 Lizzie Bassett? it's weird enough, you know, and River Phoenix was a big enough star.
1:14:57 Speaker 03 But it does, I guess, what you just said, Eddie, I didn't even think about it. It really does kind of make my heart hurt for the days when they used to just make movies, mid-sized movies.
1:15:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:15:08 Speaker 03 That were just art pieces. They weren't necessarily, they were just made to be films.
1:15:14 Speaker 02 There were so many.
1:15:14 Speaker 03 It didn't have to have IP. It didn't have to have all these ridiculous shit attached to it. It's just like a, a normal run-of-the-mill 10 to 20, 50 million dollar movie.
1:15:23 Speaker 02 Well, also, back then, there were all these movies like that. You'd go out into the desert with your wife and then someone steals her or like something like that. There was U-turn and breakdown.
1:15:33 Speaker 03 There were all the, yeah.
1:15:34 Speaker 02 It was all those movies.
1:15:35 Speaker 03 U-turn was great.
1:15:36 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:15:38 Lizzie Bassett? Well, that brings us to the end of our coverage of River Phoenix's life and death and his final film. Thank you, Henry and Ed, so much for being here. This has been an absolute pleasure. Really appreciate it. And if you all haven't listened to the last podcast on the left, you absolutely have to. Is there anything else you guys would like to plug?
1:15:57 Speaker 02 The Brighter Side, my other podcast that I do with my great comedian, Amber Nelson. It's, uh, basically, it's a positivity podcast and it's a cynics look at optimism. So, uh, please come and check us out. We try to take all the shitty things in the world and find the good in them.
1:16:13 Speaker 03 And check out on our YouTube channel, LPNTV, we have a Vampire the Masquerade role-playing game play-along that we have been working on that has been one of the funner things that we, I've ever been a part of. So that's on there. Go check that out on our YouTube, bitch.
1:16:28 Speaker 02 Yeah, and more stuff coming out on LPNTV.
1:16:31 Lizzie Bassett? Thank you both so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure. Listeners, we sure hope you're enjoying these Out of Frame episodes where we step a little outside our regularly scheduled programming. Next month, we're going to be covering The Cotton Club, and because there is so much to unpack with that film, you're going to get a main episode and an Out of Frame that will dive into the murder of Roy Raden and how it all ties together. If there's an obscure, dark Hollywood story you'd like us to cover on a future episode of Out of Frame, please let us know, and we'll see you back on Monday for the pilot of Game of Thrones.
1:17:06 Speaker 08 Go to patreon.com/whatwentwrongpodcast to support What Went Wrong and check out our website at whatwentwrongpod.com. What Went Wrong is a Sad Boom podcast, presented by Lizzie Bassett and Chris Winterbauer. Post-production and music by David Bowman. This episode was researched and written by Jesse Winterbauer.
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