The Science Behind What We Get Wrong About Relationships EP 1328

Eric Barker is the author of The Wall Street Journal bestseller “Barking Up the Wrong Tree,” which has sold over half a million copies and been translated into 19 languages. Eric is also a sought-after speaker, having given talks at MIT, the Aspen Ideas Festival, Google, the United States Military Central Command, and the Olympic Training Center. His new bestseller, “Plays Well with Others,” was released in May of 2022. In this episode you will learn,The importance of having uncomfortable conversations early in your relationships. Three questions to ask yourself before you commit to a relationship. How love and relationships have evolved over generations. The difference between loneliness and solitude. For more, go to lewishowes.com/13283 Ways to Become More Desirable In Relationships [MASTERCLASS] https://link.chtbl.com/1326-pod5 Relationship Mistakes You Must Avoid to Find Deeper Connection w/ Jay Shetty [AWKWARD THERAPY] https://link.chtbl.com/1322-podWhy Emotional Agility Is The Most Important Skill You Need To Know: https://link.chtbl.com/1297-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  What would you say were the, in the research you did, were the big flags, red flags for why this person probably won't be a great relationship partner for you long-term? What are those big red flags that you think that everyone should be looking out for?

• 0:14Eric Barker?

  I mean, first and foremost, is that issue of not communicating.

• 0:17Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:43Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest, the icon, Eric Barker in the house. Good to see you, man. Welcome back. Welcome back to the show. It's been a few years. You've got an amazing new book, Play Well With Others: The Surprising Science Behind Why Everything You Know About Relationships Is Mostly Wrong. I want to start with this question. What do you think are the three biggest things people get wrong about love and relationships in general?

• 1:10Eric Barker?

  Well, I mean, I think the first thing people think is that, you know, we can just kind of avoid problems. That conflict is bad, conflict is going to grow. And the truth is, you gotta have those hard conversations. The majority of marriages don't end in yelling and screaming. The majority of marriages end when people live parallel lives. You yell and scream when you care. Once you stop caring, it goes another direction. Number two, I think the big thing is, this is research from John Gottman, who's like the leading researcher.

• 1:39Lewis Howes?

  He's the best. He's great.

• 1:40Eric Barker?

  Is that he listened to couples argue. And 96% of the time, by listening to the first three minutes, he could predict how it ended. If it starts ugly, it's going to end ugly. You can take a deep breath, you can chill out a little bit, you're going to be so much better. It's just that little bit, how we begin predicts how we end. And the third thing I would say is like, there's a lot of difficult stuff on love and marriage that we don't hear about. You know, it's like, a lot of things, two or three years after people get married. Their happiness level is pretty much where they were before. Sometimes it declines, so you gotta keep it alive. And one of the things they talk about in the book is basically you gotta, you gotta keep dating.

• 2:22Eric Barker?

  The thing is, when people go on pleasant dates, the research shows, eh, people gotta go on exciting dates.

• 2:28Lewis Howes?

  Adventures.

• 2:29Eric Barker?

  Adventures are key. Adventures are key. People think, oh, well, we did all that fun, exciting stuff when we first started dating because we were in love. It's, you know, but actually it goes both ways. You did it because you were in love, but that's also what produced the love. So you keep doing exciting things. In psychology, they call it emotional contagion. Whatever environment we're in, we kind of pick up those emotions and we associate that with who we're with. If you're at concerts, it's exciting. And if you do fun things with your partner, you can keep love alive.

• 2:57Lewis Howes?

  So if you do all that for the first couple of years, then you just coast. It's hard to keep a love alive from years ago, a bond. You can stay connected, but you may not have as rich or fulfilling of a love life, is what I'm hearing you say.

• 3:10Eric Barker?

  Absolutely. It's like to just, to just, to kind of like hit love with the defibrillator paddles and keep it going. Where it's like, that's why a lot of people feel resentful in relationships. Because, oh, we used to do this. You used to do this for me. As opposed to kind of keeping it going.

• 3:27Lewis Howes?

  It seems to be a trend for a lot of relationships that you used to do this and the other person used to do this. But after two, five, 10 years, they stop doing it. Why do you think so many people stop living the adventurous life in the relationship? Once they're together after a period of time?

• 3:44Eric Barker?

  I mean, a lot of it is we get busy, you know? And a lot of it is people get kind of in a rut. But those ruts are really dangerous. It's like what happens is Gottman calls it negative sentiment override. And basically what that is, is basically the, the lack of talking, the lack of communication. It compounds negatively. Instead of having a conversation with your partner, you start having a conversation with yourself. Where they said, oh, if I raised this issue, they'd probably say, and that can spiral into negativity. Gottman talks about love maps, which is like really getting to know your partner. Not how they like their coffee, not where they like to vacation, but asking them the tough questions. What does love mean to you? What does happiness mean to you?

• 4:27Eric Barker?

  What is a great partner mean to you? Because that's something you, you can never get unless you ask them and you're, you're getting the answers to the test.

• 4:37Lewis Howes?

  So what is a love map then?

• 4:39Eric Barker?

  Love map is basically just that knowledge of your partner. Where you are asking, this is what makes them happy, this is what makes them less happy. But rather than, like I said, the minutia, you know, what bothers them about their day. Asking them the questions that there aren't black and white answers to. What is happiness? What does love mean? What does marriage mean? Because it answers so much when you think, and we tend to think.

• 5:03Lewis Howes?

  That everyone thinks the same way as us, or yeah.

• 5:06Eric Barker?

  The same beliefs, but we don't. And then you're, and then you're thinking, oh, I didn't take the trash out. It's not that big a deal because I don't think it's that big a deal. Whereas your partner sees that as a sign that you care. And we just associate different values. But if you ask, you can say, maybe I don't think this is that big a deal. But they really do think it's a big deal and vice versa. When the things that you feel, oh, they're neglectful. It's like, no, you gotta tell them. They gotta know.

• 5:34Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What do you think are three questions we should all know before deciding to commit to a relationship?

• 5:42Eric Barker?

  Well, what does love mean to you? What does a good partner mean to you? You know, if it's on the way to marriage, you know, what does marriage mean to you? Because we live in a world with so many options and possibilities, and that's awesome. But that's the trickiest thing. Eli Finkel's done research at Northwestern. And like what he's found is this tremendous shift. Where number one, over the past 20 years, you know, the importance of marriage as a relationship has nearly doubled. Before you were part of, you know, there's a bowling league and the old lodge. And people were involved in different communities. Now so much of that has been centralized in marriage that knowing how happy someone's marriage is,

• 6:25Eric Barker?

  is insanely predictive of how happy their life is. Because it has been so invested.

• 6:31Lewis Howes?

  You're so integrated into them. Yeah, yeah.

• 6:33Eric Barker?

  It's like that, it's almost make or break. And with all these options, all these possibilities, you know, marriage has been stripped down. Like, we don't have as many formal rules as we used to. There's so many positives to that, but there's also negatives too, because you don't, you don't, you don't have a, you don't have a brake. You don't have a seatbelt. So.

• 6:50Lewis Howes?

  Give me an example. What do you mean by that?

• 6:52Eric Barker?

  In terms of like, men need to do this, women need to do this, or that, that's, that we don't have a template like we used to have.

• 6:59Lewis Howes?

  There's not traditional roles like there used to be.

• 7:02Eric Barker?

  And that's a, and that's, that's a great thing. It's also a challenge. It's a great thing because what that means, and this is what Finkel found, is that the average relationship isn't as good as it, marriage isn't as good as it used to be. But the best marriages today are the best marriages there have ever been. Because of the lack of formal rules, if you know what you want and you put in the work, you can create a custom script that works awesome for both of you.

• 7:28Lewis Howes?

  So it's a custom script, but it probably sounds like there's still some formal, there's some agreements.

• 7:33Eric Barker?

  Yes.

• 7:34Lewis Howes?

  To the custom script. It's not an outdated agreements that was societies. It has to be this way, this way, but it's new agreements that you're both in alignment to. Is that what I'm hearing you saying?

• 7:44Eric Barker?

  Exactly. That's, that's what we decided on. This is what works for us. Nobody else wrote them for us, but we also didn't neglect to create them at all. We said, this is what works for us, and these are the people who are having, like I said, the best marriages that have ever existed.

• 7:59Lewis Howes?

  So what are the best marriages that have ever existed have in place? Are there roles and responsibilities? Are there shared agreements? Are they, they communicate in a certain way? What are the main themes that they all have?

• 8:11Eric Barker?

  What you see consistently is first, that level of communication where, again, you can't avoid it. Because when you, we avoid it, you start making assumptions, and those are usually negative. So basically, as Gottman found, it's like, you have to argue, you have to fight, it has to happen. Complaining is actually a good thing in a marriage.

• 8:32Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 8:32Eric Barker?

  Basically, the, they, he looked at the, like, I think, the first year or two of marriage. And the couples that complained the least, for the first two years, it seemed like it was going really well. They're the ones that divorced later because they weren't working through any problems. They were ignoring them. So the couples that had a moderate level of disagreement, they were getting comfortable. They were working out the things. They were agreeing. They were laying down defaults. And then it was okay. It's like getting settled in a new job. So there has to be a level of complaint. The only time complaint gets bad is when it becomes criticism. The difference is when you personalize it. You didn't take out the trash, that's fine. You didn't take out the trash because you're an idiot? That's a problem.

• 9:13Lewis Howes?

  That's not good, yeah.

• 9:14Eric Barker?

  When it's about an activity, that's okay. When it's about people's fundamental personality, that doesn't tend to go well.

• 9:20Lewis Howes?

  I'm so glad you're sharing this because it's interesting. Because I was probably like, huh, I wonder if I'm doing it wrong because I've been in a relationship. We've been together for a while now. And I said to her before we got committed.

• 9:35Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 9:35Lewis Howes?

  I said, the only way I'm willing to get into a new relationship.

• 9:38Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 9:39Lewis Howes?

  Because I've been in many that didn't work out.

• 9:42Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 9:42Lewis Howes?

  And I was like, the only way I'm going to get into a new one is if, under a few conditions. One, the person I'm in a relationship with is doing some type of consistent therapy.

• 9:53Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 9:54Lewis Howes?

  It doesn't have to be every week, but something consistently once a month, right? Where they're working on their own emotional challenges.

• 10:00Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 10:00Lewis Howes?

  And they're working through them and processing, healing and all that stuff. Number two, they've got to be willing to do therapy with me in the beginning.

• 10:08Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 10:08Lewis Howes?

  Because my goal is to have the uncomfortable conversations without complaining or arguing.

• 10:17Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 10:17Lewis Howes?

  But have them in a safer environment where we can both communicate.

• 10:20Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 10:22Lewis Howes?

  And it doesn't feel good, you know, it's like, ah, it's a little scary, it's a little messy. But it's an unconscious space with a third party who can give us tools.

• 10:30Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 10:30Lewis Howes?

  Who can help us then align on agreements that work for both of us.

• 10:34Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 10:35Lewis Howes?

  And it's been incredible. It's been incredible because of that shift where I think a lot of people go into therapy when it's not working. To try to make it work.

• 10:43Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 10:44Lewis Howes?

  And resolve things because they've neglected the complaining or the conversation, the communication. I was like, let's just skip all the complaining.

• 10:51Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 10:52Lewis Howes?

  And figure out the agreements early on.

• 10:53Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 10:54Lewis Howes?

  So we don't have to get to a place of stress or

• 10:56Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 10:57Lewis Howes?

  Not, not talking about stuff.

• 10:58Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 10:59Lewis Howes?

  So it's been, but we haven't been complaining with each other.

• 11:01Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Lewis Howes?

  So it's kind of like, huh, am I worried that we haven't been complaining, but we've been communicating agreements and aligning to them. So it's been a beautiful thing.

• 11:09Eric Barker?

  You, you did the work upfront.

• 11:10Lewis Howes?

  I mean,

• 11:11Eric Barker?

  Upfront. The biggest reason, most marriage therapy doesn't work. And one of the biggest reasons why it doesn't work is people wait too long.

• 11:18Lewis Howes?

  It's too late. It's too late, right?

• 11:20Eric Barker?

  Basically, people don't wait until six years in. And actually, most divorces occur four years in.

• 11:26Lewis Howes?

  Forty years in?

• 11:27Eric Barker?

  Four, four years in. And then so by people are going, a lot of the stuff is too far gone. You know,

• 11:34Lewis Howes?

  You're already, you're already like, I'm over it. I'm exhausted. I'm, I don't care about this person anymore. I'm, I'm resentful.

• 11:39Eric Barker?

  It's just to diverge too much.

• 11:41Lewis Howes?

  Too far, right?

• 11:42Eric Barker?

  Yeah. You, you, instead of going to a doctor's appointment, you said, let's go to the gym and stay in shape.

• 11:46Lewis Howes?

  Now.

• 11:47Eric Barker?

  And we don't need to have, to have, to have the open heart surgery, literally, later.

• 11:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 11:51Eric Barker?

  I mean,

• 11:51Lewis Howes?

  And then try to recover from the wounds that are so like broken, right?

• 11:55Eric Barker?

  Well, that, well, that's what's so powerful is like you, you had someone to kind of poke and prod the two of you to open up and do it instead of just checking the box. We talked, like you had a professional go, no, no, you gotta open up a little bit more. And it sounds like you really laid a lot of good groundwork and got it out there.

• 12:12Lewis Howes?

  Hundred percent, yeah. And we're, you know, we're spending four to six hour sessions on Saturdays sometimes just to make sure, all right, let's talk about all these things that might be, that might be an issue later down the line or that are unclear

• 12:24Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 12:24Lewis Howes?

  right now. Let's get clarity.

• 12:26Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 12:26Lewis Howes?

  So there's no confusion. And I think, you know, I've experienced a lot of pain in previous relationships that I take responsibility for because I stayed in these things.

• 12:35Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 12:36Lewis Howes?

  But I think because I experienced so much of that, I was just like, I don't want any of that anymore. You know, I'd rather be so open, courageous in my communication, talk about all the uncomfortable things, even if it doesn't feel good, to eliminate later pain, you know? Dive into it now so I don't have it later.

• 12:53Eric Barker?

  Well, I mean, you set up an environment where you were able to be compassionate with others. You had a professional there. You both agreed to this. It didn't happen spontaneously when somebody was angry. Being compassionate in the middle of conversations. Gottman talks about repair, where it's like even if you're having big problems, if you pause to be a little compassionate, to show a little respect.

• 13:14Lewis Howes?

  So hard for people, though.

• 13:15Eric Barker?

  It's, well, because by the time anybody has a conversation, you're usually so worked up and angry already. It's like you went in there calm and cool, you had a referee, and you both let it out.

• 13:24Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 13:25Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 13:25Lewis Howes?

  And letting it out in a conscious way. What does the science say that you've done all the research on it about history of relationships that most people don't know about?

• 13:35Eric Barker?

  Well, in terms of how they worked in the past?

• 13:37Lewis Howes?

  Yes, and then now, where we're at now, and where you think it's gonna be?

• 13:42Eric Barker?

  See, the interesting thing is in the past, it was very prescribed. I mean, you had arranged marriages, you know, you had everything kind of set up that basically was all formal systems. That was good for society in some ways, because it kept the smooth running machine, but it wasn't really good for the individual. Even if you go back to the 1960s, the percentage of men and women who said, "Oh, you know, you don't have to be in love with the person you get married," was staggeringly high compared to now. Love is considered essential. That's really great, but the challenge we're facing is we created this winner-take-all environment, where in the past, it was very formal. Love wasn't as important, stability, rock solid.

• 14:27Eric Barker?

  Now, we want it all. And that's tricky, to keep it stable, to keep it safe, potentially to raise children, and also, "You have to fulfill me and bring me everything I've ever dreamed." And the thing is, we face those challenges, we can overcome them. The issue is that, like, a lot of people have fairy-tale visions. And fairy-tale visions can be problematic, because they're passive. It's supposed to magically happen to me. As opposed to rolling up your sleeves, then you can have one of those best marriages that have ever existed.

• 14:59Lewis Howes?

  Right, where both parties are doing 100% of the effort and intention, not waiting for the other person to give them something all day long and make them feel a certain way.

• 15:08Eric Barker?

  I mean, we spend a lot of time hoping the other person will read our mind. And as opposed to when we have those conversations, like you did, where you made it right up front, it's like, not only do we kind of get the answers to the test, this is what happiness is, this is what marriage is to them, but also, when you learn where people's needs are coming from... You can find a way to honor both of your values. You know, it's like, oh, they go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, they leave the light on, it drives me crazy. Okay, well, if you found out, that's because they had a childhood fear of the dark.

• 15:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 15:38Eric Barker?

  Now, oh, oh, I underst- oh, my God, that's... People, once you understand the story, once you understand the narrative, you understand where those feelings are coming from, we get so more compassionate, but if we don't have that conversation, then we assume it's because they're out to get us, and they're trying to ruin my life.

• 15:54Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure. I've talked to a few people who have been married for forty plus years, who are happily married, which there's a lot of people that have been married for a long time that are not happy, right? Or that just surviving, they're not thriving in the marriage. And I'll ask them these questions, like, what is the, what's the key to being happy consistently? Obviously, it might have some ups and downs, but like staying connected and happy and all those things, and integrity. And almost all of them say that eighty percent of it is who you choose.

• 16:24Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 16:25Lewis Howes?

  And I think when we don't have the conscious conversations early on, and we neglect the uncomfortable conversations early on to make sure we're in alignment with our values, our vision, our lifestyle, our agreements, when we neglect that, it just causes more pain in the future.

• 16:41Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 16:42Lewis Howes?

  Right? When you keep kind of the mask of the potential fairy tale of what you think they're gonna do, and without actually asking the questions.

• 16:48Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 16:49Lewis Howes?

  How important is it for people to be consistently having these uncomfortable conversations early on?

• 16:56Eric Barker?

  No, it's essential. Because what you're talking about, like that issue of selection, is this person right? This is why you hear so much about people trying to change their partners. Because you didn't pick the right one.

• 17:09Lewis Howes?

  You didn't pick the right one. You don't accept them because you didn't pick the right one. Because if we would ask these questions earlier in the relationships, we would be able to say, okay, separate our image of a perfect person, and say, okay, actually, they don't think about money this way, or they don't think about raising kids this way, or they have a religious belief that it's different from money. And we could say, oh, you're a great person, but it's probably not the right fit for me and my life's vision.

• 17:33Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 17:34Lewis Howes?

  But a lot of us don't do that. We're too chemically bonded.

• 17:37Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 17:38Lewis Howes?

  By the feelings of love.

• 17:39Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 17:40Lewis Howes?

  And the chemical connections.

• 17:41Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 17:42Lewis Howes?

  That kind of cloud us from.

• 17:43Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 17:44Lewis Howes?

  Those other big decisions.

• 17:45Eric Barker?

  Yeah, I think with the little stuff, like, you know, how you argue, how you dispute, those you can work on. You're probably not going to change somebody's fundamental values. So finding out upfront, this is what they think about marriage. This is what they think about love. You know, it's like, couples argue a lot about money. It's like, you know, why is that? Well, it's very simple. You know, it's like, because money is a quantification of values. Did I spend money on things that benefit the family or selfishly benefit myself? Did I spend money on? Money is a, you get a number. This is how important this is to me. And if you're not on the same page in terms of what's important to you, it's often going to show up in terms of money. So it's like, understanding, hey, we're on the same page. Because feelings often fade, especially if we don't work on it.

• 18:29Eric Barker?

  But if you have the same values, then you know you're headed in the same direction. Then it's just tic-tacking to get it perfect instead of trying to close this huge chasm that you didn't know was there.

• 18:40Lewis Howes?

  So how important is values in choosing the right partner?

• 18:43Eric Barker?

  I mean, I, I think it's critical. I mean, you can, you can make things work if you really have it, but it's like to understand.

• 18:50Lewis Howes?

  It's so much harder, right? How do you make it more effortless is by being in alignment on these things, right? What are the, what are the three to five values that we should really have figured out? Where it's not a perfect match, but you're in alignment. Eighty percent of the values, oh yeah, that makes sense and I'm, I'm here. What are those three to five key values for a relationship?

• 19:09Eric Barker?

  I mean, I think a big issue is the issue of like, what is success to us? You know, being able to say, it's kind of like, when, are, are we on the right track when we're spending as much time together as humanly possible? Or are we on the right track when, you know, we both have a balance? Getting that issue of like, what do we value and like, how do we honor both of those things? This is something critical that can be very difficult to figure out later on. Because one of the critical things is when people are trying to change their partner. There's a, there's a way to do this and there's a way to do it successfully. And they actually call it the Michelangelo effect because it's, it's, but what it has to do with is finding out who your partner's ultimate vision of themself is and moving them towards that.

• 19:54Eric Barker?

  So, to your point. If their values are so far astray from yours, you're actually moving them further away from you. Because if you're gonna yell at them or chide them, that's not gonna work. But if they had this vision of who they'd like to be, and you help them get towards that, it's great for both of you.

• 20:11Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 20:12Eric Barker?

  But if you, if your values are so different, you're, you're actually hurting the relationship to make them better.

• 20:20Lewis Howes?

  Is it possible to change your partner then?

• 20:22Eric Barker?

  You, you can. But it's exactly the steps that you talked about. Where if we know our values are pretty similar, and we know that maybe because of circumstances or lack of confidence, they're not moving in the direction that they wanna move in. If you look at, who do they see? Not you see, who do they see as their ideal self? And you start to support them in those endeavors, then they become a better version of themselves, and that is gonna make them happy. They're gonna, they're gonna be likely to move forward. It's what they want.

• 20:52Lewis Howes?

  And be more grateful in the relationship to you.

• 20:54Eric Barker?

  Exactly.

• 20:55Lewis Howes?

  Supporting them.

• 20:56Eric Barker?

  Yes. So it's like, it's understanding where they wanna go and supporting them in that. But you need the answer upfront, and it needs to be aligned with yours.

• 21:03Lewis Howes?

  And what happens if you try to change someone in a relationship to meet your needs and your desires of what you like as opposed to what they want?

• 21:11Eric Barker?

  Yeah, that's disastrous. That's what most people do. And that's, and that's what doesn't work. Because you're trying to make them into something they're not.

• 21:20Eric Barker?

  Best case scenario is they're not gonna be very good at it. Worst case scenario is they're gonna be resentful. Because you're basically saying, you're not good enough. Or I don't like you as you are.

• 21:29Lewis Howes?

  Right, so you need to change to make me happier.

• 21:32Eric Barker?

  And, and so if you understand upfront, we are both generally headed in the same direction, then helping them be better is helping them be better for you.

• 21:41Lewis Howes?

  What is a, maybe a controversial strategy or technique to making a relationship better, deeper, stronger?

• 21:52Eric Barker?

  It's what's really interesting is all the research on narrative, on the research on stories. And one thing that's very controversial is people often don't know the story that they're looking for. People think that, oh, I want this kind of person and they always end up with the other kind of person. And they want to blame the world. And it's like, if you keep choosing the same partner time and time again, it's probably you. You need to look at that. And there's some just amazing work in terms of figuring out what your story is, figuring out what your partner's story is.

• 22:32Eric Barker?

  Because some people think they're looking for a romance, they're actually looking for a war story. Some people enjoy the conflict, nobody wants to admit that. But to be honest with yourself and then be honest with your partner and to find a partner that you're aligned with. Those are the relationships that work is when we say, again, not what, not to speculate, but to look back. Not to say, well, I think, no, that's rationalizing versus five times in a row, I did this. That's probably what I usually do. You can change it, but it's like to say, this is the pattern I'm looking for. You know, what does that say about me? What do I want to change? And is that aligned with what my partner wants? It's deep, it's hard, it's painful, but it's incredibly powerful.

• 23:14Lewis Howes?

  What's the biggest thing you've learned about yourself in the last few years from doing this research and working on this book? About how you've done things incredibly well in previous relationships? And how you've like, maybe something in the book where you're like, wow, I never did this well. And it's probably, you know, why it caused challenge in the past.

• 23:32Eric Barker?

  Oh, just the issue of opening up. Like, yeah, the vulnerability issue, like, we know that's, I think we've heard a lot that it's powerful for romantic relationships. But it's just in, in friendships, in every relationship, you know? In work, it can be a challenge if you're in a leadership role, you do need to be seen as authoritative. But like even in your friendships, Arthur Aaron at Stony Brook University, he got people who are strangers to feel like lifelong friends in an hour by just making them answer questions that progressively had them reveal more about themselves.

• 24:06Eric Barker?

  In one hour because they had to proceed, answer this question, answer this question. And people find connections. And what's really critical there is that issue of vulnerability. Because if I'm just giving facts, that's fine. Similarities, very powerful. But what's more important is when I tell you something about me that could make me look bad, that maybe could be used against me, that could embarrass me or shame me. I am basically, I am not saying I trust you. I am demonstrating I trust. I'm handing you a knife and I'm saying, you could stab me. I trust you not to do it. That is a powerful way to demonstrate I trust you and people are likely to reciprocate. And once you escalate that, I go a little deeper, you go a little bit deeper.

• 24:51Eric Barker?

  Now, there's not an idea of trust, there's a feeling of trust.

• 24:55Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting. And I think you've got to be, I think some people maybe don't do that as much as they would because they maybe have opened up or been vulnerable and had like a narcissistic relationship that has used that vulnerability against them. You know, later in their relationship and manipulated them with their vulnerabilities as opposed to trusted them and held it with a kindness. So I think that's why some people might stop opening up, not everyone, but. And why it's hard for people if they've been used against their vulnerability. And that's why it is tough to be vulnerable. Because you don't want someone to use it against you.

• 25:36Eric Barker?

  Well, and we can mitigate that. The issue is, start small. Start small, do they reciprocate?

• 25:44Lewis Howes?

  Don't tell them your whole life trauma right away, yeah.

• 25:46Eric Barker?

  Don't confess any murders over Thanksgiving dinner. You know, it's like, start small. Do they reciprocate? Are they being vulnerable back? If they're not, then this is already feeling a little one-sided.

• 25:56Lewis Howes?

  Then don't keep giving more and more, yeah.

• 25:58Eric Barker?

  So it's like if you start small, they give back. You know, you know, tit for tat a little bit, just where you're opening up, they opening up. And what you're gonna find is that that is, you know, really powerful. But if they don't respond, then what's great, to your point, is that it becomes a litmus test. Okay, this relationship is, it's not gonna go that far.

• 26:18Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:18Eric Barker?

  Because they don't wanna open up to me. They don't trust me in the same way.

• 26:23Lewis Howes?

  To give the same way.

• 26:24Eric Barker?

  So maybe I should not trust them at that level.

• 26:26Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. It's fascinating. I bet that experiment, you know, if you, if you did this for a day with strangers, I bet you can get strangers to be closer friends than some people who've spent a year together with surface conversations.

• 26:40Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Lewis Howes?

  Than a day together with vulnerable intimate conversations.

• 26:45Eric Barker?

  This is the, uh, Arthur Aaron, the same guy who did that, the one hour to, to feeling like a lifelong friend. The, uh, research assistants in his lab, who initially helped him with that work, ended up falling in love and getting married.

• 26:58Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 26:58Eric Barker?

  Because they had to.

• 27:00Lewis Howes?

  They did the same test.

• 27:02Eric Barker?

  And they had to open up.

• 27:03Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 27:04Eric Barker?

  And these people fell in love because, again, we usually play it too safe. And the thing is, we, we, when we, when we play it safe, we talk about narrow topics, we are not creating the surface area for people to connect with us. The greater that surface area, the more possibilities for similarity and the more possibilities for someone to say, you know what, they're like me, I trust them, this is, this is worth pursuing.

• 27:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, let's hang out more, let's spend more time together.

• 27:32Eric Barker?

  Exactly.

• 27:32Lewis Howes?

  What were some of those questions in that hour-long experience?

• 27:37Eric Barker?

  They weren't, they weren't anything dramatic. I mean, it was kind of, if you could have dinner with anyone, living or dead, who would it be? You know, if, what is your idea of a perfect day? You know, they weren't too invasive. He had like three stages where they got progressively more intimate, but none of them were like talking about, you know, like deep childhood trauma or something like that. It was just enough that you could say something and they could respond to it and, and they could feel a level of similarity and they could start to get an idea. Again, the values issue of what, what, if you could, if you could have dinner with any person, living or dead, I'm getting to know what your values are.

• 28:17Lewis Howes?

  And why do you wanna, yeah, if it's like some. Random, I don't know, pop star that really didn't have a meaningful life. You're like, okay, that's interesting versus, I don't know, Einstein or someone. Or Nelson Mandela or something. We're like, okay, that's interesting. Why?

• 28:31Eric Barker?

  Do they prioritize emotions? Do they prioritize knowledge? Do they prioritize curiosity? You know, who is this person? And just having that reciprocal, because both people had to answer both, all the questions.

• 28:42Lewis Howes?

  You'll see, are they actually opening up or are they kind of just keeping it safe, right?

• 28:46Eric Barker?

  Yeah. And it was like, you, you start to get this kind of pastiche. You start to see this pattern. Oh, again and again, I'm hearing a more cerebral approach, or I'm hearing a more empathetic approach.

• 28:57Lewis Howes?

  I think just doing the exercise, even if you didn't like the answers, you still probably would respect that someone was being honest and sharing and opening up about their life, about their beliefs or visions.

• 29:09Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 29:10Lewis Howes?

  You can be like, wow, it's, it's really cool. We got to connect on this and it's, it's cool that you did the same thing as me.

• 29:15Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 29:15Lewis Howes?

  Even if I don't align with you.

• 29:16Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Lewis Howes?

  But it's more than people just not sharing those things at all. And it could be in surface conversations, right?

• 29:22Eric Barker?

  Well, I think, you know, what I think you said that was critical was just that idea of respect, where I might hear your answers and I might, they may not be similar to mine, they may not be relatable to mine, but I can hear you say something and I can go, wow, that took guts. That is not the kind of thing I would say to a stranger and he went there.

• 29:41Lewis Howes?

  To courage. You can respect. You're like, okay.

• 29:44Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 29:45Lewis Howes?

  I like that.

• 29:45Eric Barker?

  You, you could have played it safe and you, and you didn't. Like, that's, that's that vulnerability trust issue. Because when I looked at the research, I looked at like all of Dale Carnegie's stuff for making friends. And it turns out most of what Carnegie said was, was pretty accurate. Most of it was pretty accurate, but it's the beginning of a relationship. As we get deeper, what's there? We're not trying to build just acquaintances. And the two critical things were time and vulnerability. You know, vulnerability, like, the issue of not only trying to empower our relationships, but also Robert Garfield at University of Pennsylvania found that not being vulnerable in your relationships increases the chance of a first heart attack and increases the chance that that heart attack will be lethal.

• 30:25Lewis Howes?

  Come on, really?

• 30:26Eric Barker?

  We need to open up. We need to.

• 30:29Lewis Howes?

  At least with someone, right? At least with one person in our lives. So when he said that the research is showing that if you're not vulnerable with your intimate partner or friendships, you're more likely to have a heart attack?

• 30:41Eric Barker?

  Yes, and it's more likely to be lethal.

• 30:42Lewis Howes?

  Holy cow, what is that about emotions trapped in the body are not expressed in a healthy way? That makes us sick.

• 30:51Eric Barker?

  It's stress. Is that that issue where it was stunning to me that was it a 2009 UC Berkeley study? You know, found that that good relationships can add a decade to your lifespan potentially. A decade. It was crazy. And then there was a meta review where they they look at all the studies about relationships. And what they found is that good relationships are second only to genetics in terms of predicting both health and longevity in humans.

• 31:19Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 31:19Eric Barker?

  Yeah, it's like it's so crazy. We forget that those little stressors that build up and we don't have a release valve. Well, we can't talk about things and we can't share things when we can't hear that it's normal. It's okay. This is really hard stuff. You know, what was it? The issue of loneliness, the stress hormones that happen that basically because of loneliness is the equivalent of a physical attack. Loneliness is like getting beat up.

• 31:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 31:45Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 31:46Lewis Howes?

  There's a difference between loneliness and choosing to be alone, to have alone time, to process in a healthy way and to love on yourself and accept yourself versus I'm sad and lonely and no one cares about me.

• 31:58Eric Barker?

  This was some of the most mind blowing research that I looked at in here was that issue of what you're describing is the difference between loneliness and solitude.

• 32:08Eric Barker?

  Loneliness, this sounds totally crazy. Loneliness before the 19th century basically didn't exist.

• 32:14Lewis Howes?

  We didn't have time to be.

• 32:16Eric Barker?

  We were so enmeshed in societies, religions, tribes, nations. We always felt a part of something, even if we weren't close to people and we usually were, we felt we were a part of something. So Fayel Birdi, who is a researcher at University of York, she looked back and you basically before the 19th century, you can't hear it mentioned because we were always embedded in a group. When you hear the word lonely, it it meant something by itself. It didn't have the negative stigma. It wasn't until literally Frankenstein that you heard lonely in the 19th century start to be used as a negative thing because we had an explosion of individualism, which unlocked a lot of power, a lot of great things in the world, but we felt separate. And second crazy thing.

• 32:59Eric Barker?

  John Kaciopou, leading researcher on loneliness. What he found was that people who are lonely and people who are not lonely, spend the same amount of time with others. Lonely people don't spend any more time alone. What he realized was that loneliness is not about proximity. We've all felt lonely in a crowd. You can be at Times Square on New Year's Eve.

• 33:23Lewis Howes?

  Feel alone.

• 33:23Eric Barker?

  And still feel alone. You can feel alone on the subway. Loneliness isn't lack of proximity to people. Loneliness is how you feel about your relationships. When you go on a business trip, you might miss your friends and family, but you know they're there. You know they're missing you. You know they don't care about you. You don't feel lonely. You might miss them. Versus if you're surrounded by people, but you think nobody cares, that's when you feel lonely. It's how you feel about those relationships.

• 33:48Lewis Howes?

  How do you shift that feeling? And what if they really don't care? You know, maybe it's all in your head and you're like, "Yeah, they don't care about me because they're not doing what I want," or something. But how do you shift that to create a deeper connection and feeling about, you know, the few key relationships you have at least?

• 34:05Eric Barker?

  Yeah. I mean, that's where we want to get into time and vulnerability. Those two costly signals.

• 34:11Lewis Howes?

  Spending more time?

• 34:12Eric Barker?

  Spending... Time is one of the most powerful signals in a relationship. Because time is... All the stuff that Dale Carnegie talks about is easy to do. That's why we like it. That's also why manipulators like it. How you show somebody that they're really special is by costly signals. If I spend a lot of time with you, I spend an hour a day with you. I can only do that for 24 people, and I've got to sleep. That says you're special. There's no way around that. Time is costly. Vulnerability, I'm telling you things that could be used against me. That's really... Those are powerful signals. And when people reciprocate those signals, we know they're serious. If they're making the time, if they're saying things that maybe they shouldn't say...

• 34:56Eric Barker?

  Then these are people who are making the effort. The other thing that's really powerful, I found this fascinating. This was just a study that just came out in 2020. Was that if you're not feeling supported enough in your relationships, an easy thing you can do is introduce your friends to one another. Because the issue is, there's, there's a synergy. I think that word's often overused, but there's a synergy in that in the sense of having one-off relationships is great. But once you start introducing your friends, you're creating a community. Your friends can coordinate. Hey, Louis is feeling down. We should take him out. Now they can work together and you're, you're creating your own group. You're creating your own community.

• 35:39Eric Barker?

  That is so much more powerful than a lot of one-off relationships where people can't say, share information and say, this is what he needs right now.

• 35:48Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting. That's something I've kind of done intuitively for the last 15 years, which is creating individual relationships and then saying, hey, let's do a dinner together and kind of bringing everyone together.

• 36:00Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 36:01Lewis Howes?

  And trying to go beyond that by saying, here's why you should know this person and here's what you can connect on. And here's what they're working on and here's how you guys could align on this thing. And I think the more you put people together, who can benefit each other, whether it be as friends or in business or career, you're, you're adding value to more other people in multiple ways. Like you said, the synergistic ways.

• 36:24Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 36:24Lewis Howes?

  I think that just deepens your connection to people too.

• 36:28Eric Barker?

  Absolutely. I mean, in terms of the emotions, you know, there's no doubt of having these friends, but also in terms of life success. It's like Mark Granovetter, Granovetter did research on weak ties. And where usually the things our friends know, we usually know. But when you go one degree out, those are the things we're not hearing about. Those are the things we're not connected. When you're connecting people with other people that are one degree out from you, they're getting new ideas, new potential, new job offers, new opportunities. You're creating this whole network.

• 36:59Lewis Howes?

  You're the center. You're the champion of all these relationships and opportunities.

• 37:03Eric Barker?

  And, and that is so valuable for both sides. It's so valuable because it's so much easier for somebody else to just say, sure, I'll come to dinner than having to organize it themselves. People are really going to appreciate that, but also as you being the hub of the network. Then all, all roads lead to you.

• 37:21Lewis Howes?

  And it usually pays dividends long-term, not that you're trying to like get something out of it necessarily. And I think when it's only transactional, it doesn't feel as good, but um. You know, I've had multiple people that have gotten married and now have kids because I've connected the dots somehow to them. Whether they came to an event that I put on or I introduced them or. You know, something. And so it's like you're, you're creating a legacy in the world.

• 37:46Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Lewis Howes?

  Whether you're, uh, you know, close with them or not, you're still making an impact in people's lives. And I think good things tend to happen when you impact people in that way long-term.

• 37:57Eric Barker?

  Yeah. Well, you're, you're, you're thinking, you're, you're starting with something positive. You're starting with good intent. Uh huh. Then you're reaching out, doing the work. It makes such a difference. It's like, you know, there's, there's a lot of places that say they want to have impact. It's like, no, let's have positive impact. Let's, let's focus on a little bit more. And it's like, to do that makes all the difference in the world. I mean, not only in terms of, again, relationships and love, but also in terms of career. One of the biggest tips that's come out of research in terms of people networking is there are some people who are super connectors. There are some people, if you look at your contact list, you will see they introduced you to a disproportionate number of the people you know. And reaching out to them is a very high leverage way to network better.

• 38:38Eric Barker?

  By creating these things, you're not only bringing people together, doing warm things, you may be helping these people get jobs and opportunities. Because you're the super connector.

• 38:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Keith Ferazzi wrote a book called Never Eat Alone.

• 38:49Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 38:49Lewis Howes?

  Which talks about, you know, I think never having a meal by yourself, but always finding people to connect with and seeing how you can offer value and connecting the dots from previous connections and.

• 38:58Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 38:59Lewis Howes?

  The power that comes beyond just personal relationships, but in career business as well with that network.

• 39:05Eric Barker?

  Yeah. There's, there's recent research by Nicholas Appley that basically showed. We're often reluctant to even talk to strangers in a, you know, in a Starbucks or something like that. We often feel like. You know, oh, we're going to annoy them. And the truth is, that's not the case. When they surveyed people, just saying something small. Wow, line's long. Or how can you relate to them? We usually feel better. And when we think about it, like again, to specific. Yeah. When I did say something, that person said something. We overemphasize the negative. Most of the times when we just say something nice, we reach out. We feel better, they feel better, and sometimes it blossoms into an actual friendship.

• 39:44Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure. This is powerful stuff, man. I'm curious. How do you know? How does someone know when they are truly in a loving partnership? And this is real love versus chemicals and illusions of love?

• 40:04Eric Barker?

  Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, there's gonna be the issue of time. For the first 18 months, you are gonna have the chemicals. But the truth is, the chemicals usually die down. You know, it's like, so in longer relationships, you know, you are gonna, you are gonna get away from the craziness. But what's really powerful? I was surprised when I looked at the issue of love as a feeling. Love makes us nuts. Love makes us absolutely crazy. When you look at the historical documents, going back to 3000 B.C. in Egypt.

• 40:37Lewis Howes?

  Wars and killing and this and that, yeah.

• 40:40Eric Barker?

  Love was described as a malady. It was described as a sickness.

• 40:43Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 40:44Eric Barker?

  Yes, because it was literally a diagnosable illness. And to this day, if you just, yes. Because we get so nuts. But again.

• 40:52Lewis Howes?

  We don't have reason, right? It's like, you gotta have some some ability to not react and explode.

• 40:58Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 40:59Lewis Howes?

  Over love.

• 41:00Eric Barker?

  And I was just like, why would? And the truth is, it makes sense. We talked about earlier, we're in friendship with costly signals. What is a more costly signal than I am running around like a maniac, thinking about you all the time and doing everything? I'm not behaving rationally. What is that? That tells you, I am invested. I am serious. I am incapable of callously taking advantage of you because I'm crazy. And they actually tested this. They looked at countries and communities where it was very easy to just ghost someone. And countries and communities where it was very difficult. They had strong network ties. It was hard to ghost. What do you see where it's easier to ghost?

• 41:43Eric Barker?

  People, the signal of love, the craziness of love is greater because your brain realizes fundamentally, I need to boost the signal to show the other person, I am nuts about them. Love is stronger because it has to communicate. It is a valuable sense, it's a valuable sense to the other person that you are literally crazy about them. And this gets more to your point. The issue of what predicts long-term success in a relationship is you isolate part of that crazy. Idealization. Idealization, seeing that person as better than they are is not only predicts happiness in a relationship, it predicts the duration and the success of a relationship.

• 42:24Lewis Howes?

  If you see your partner or potential partner as better than they actually are, makes it a better relationship or worse relationship?

• 42:32Eric Barker?

  It makes it better. It makes it better. You need to see them as better than they are. That is, it is the greatest hallmark of love.

• 42:39Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 42:39Eric Barker?

  Yeah. To, because we can get cynical, everybody has flaws. When you start making negative assumptions about your partner, that's not a good sign. There's a strong correlation between how people feel on their wedding day and how things work out. Is when people have second, second thoughts, divorce is much more likely. Versus when people have that idealization. You've heard it, when people first start dating, they're just, they are over the moon. This person has done everything. They've won Nobel prizes and gold medals. They are unstoppable. Having some of that and keeping some of that, a little bit of a rational positive. Because the thing is, when they, when they dive down and do the research, these people are not deluded.

• 43:21Eric Barker?

  You realize your partner is imperfect, but you're always willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. You always believe they have the potential. You always believe it's that issue of when they do something wrong, they must be having a bad day. You're compassionate, you give them benefit of the doubt versus the idiot did it again. Those are the things. So that idealization, seeing that person as better than they are, being able to sustain that is a great sign of true love.

• 43:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's good. So how do we, how do we do that without having expectations though?

• 43:53Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 43:53Lewis Howes?

  Not being like, because what if they don't live up to that vision or that, that ideal? And they fall short of an expectation?

• 44:00Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 44:01Lewis Howes?

  Do we create expectations or not have expectations in relationships?

• 44:05Eric Barker?

  Well, first and foremost, you want to keep the communication channels open. If those are hidden contracts, I expect you to do this, but I'm not going to tell you.

• 44:13Lewis Howes?

  Then you're screwed.

• 44:14Eric Barker?

  Yeah. Versus when we have a clear idea, this is how you defined it. Hey, this is how I defined happiness. Okay, we both get that. We're on the same page. We both know. And then we, we talk about the Michelangelo effect. You know, as long as our values are aligned, to be able to say, I'm going to go out of my way to help, to help this person be the best version of themselves. Now, you're moving them in a direction that you're both aligned on. You're helping them be better and be someone they want to be.

• 44:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:45Eric Barker?

  This can make all the difference. You are helping them be who they want to be, but it also is, they are fulfilling the idealization that you want so much.

• 44:54Lewis Howes?

  What if they don't want to improve? They don't want to take a look at their lives. They don't want to take accountability, responsibility on the stuff that's hurting them or holding them back.

• 45:02Eric Barker?

  Mm-hmm.

• 45:04Lewis Howes?

  And the other partner is all about growth and having a positive mind frame about life and compassion and forgiveness. How do you navigate that when one wants to grow and the other one is happy where they're at?

• 45:17Eric Barker?

  I mean, if, if the gulf is too big, it's kind of like, that's, that's going to be really hard. If you know, if you, if you really think you have that much further to go and they don't, you know, that's a very difficult situation that might call for ending the relationship. You know, however, What if this is an acute episode? You know, were they always like this? If so, if they were never wanting to improve, you were always wanting to improve, then maybe you made an error early on. If they've had a shift, then it's just, maybe they're dealing with depression. Maybe they're dealing with some problems. Maybe they're feeling cynical about the relationship. That's where just the communication cycle of, okay, you weren't always like this. You are like this now. I'm not judging. I'm asking what's going on.

• 45:57Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 45:57Eric Barker?

  So that we can both understand each other because they have some ideal version of themselves. They do have something they want to move towards, but maybe they feel like that's not possible or maybe they feel stuck right now. If it's not this terminal problem, it's always been the case, then it's an issue of, great, let me help you.

• 46:17Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha, yeah. What would you say were the, in the research you did, were the big flags, red flags, for why this person probably won't be a great relationship partner for you long term? What are those big red flags that you think that everyone should be looking out for?

• 46:33Eric Barker?

  I mean, first and foremost is that issue of not communicating. And that includes vulnerability.

• 46:38Lewis Howes?

  If they're not vulnerable, then this is probably not going to work out.

• 46:41Eric Barker?

  I mean, how do you, if somebody won't tell you what they want, what they need, what's wrong, you're never going to be able to fix it. You know, it's like that communication becomes essential. You know, it doesn't have to happen all the time, everything about everything. But it's like getting to know what they want, where they're going and how that aligns with what you got. If you're not communicating, it's, it's almost inevitably going to spiral down. But that's something we can alleviate. It's like that's something people can work on to, to talk and open up. It's not always easy. But you know, Gottman talked about his four, the four things that were the harbingers of divorce. You know, he talked about the issue of criticism, you know, stonewalling, defensiveness and contempt. And what's interesting is those are all dynamics

• 47:25Eric Barker?

  within conversations. You can often bridge the gap. If, you know, when you're vetting people, you can often bridge a gap about what we're going, what we want. But if you're behaving in this bad way, criticism, you're blaming their personality, defensiveness, you always respond to them. You, they, they, they raise an issue and then you raise it, escalating, escalating. Stonewalling, somebody raises something, you just immediately shut down. And contempt, you see your partner as, as on a lower plane than you. These were the biggest things that predicted divorce. And it's not an issue of, you know, some huge gap or some difference. It was an issue of how you handled things, just by handling things more respectfully and compassionately.

• 48:08Lewis Howes?

  That's it.

• 48:09Eric Barker?

  It got so much.

• 48:10Lewis Howes?

  It's the way you handled it.

• 48:11Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 48:12Lewis Howes?

  Not that, you know, you didn't align and everything, but it's how you communicated in the discomfort is what it sounds like.

• 48:19Eric Barker?

  You gotta stay in the pocket. You gotta, you gotta deal with those difficulties.

• 48:22Lewis Howes?

  Stay in it, man.

• 48:22Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 48:23Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man. What's the, um, what's your thoughts on insecurities and jealousies in an intimate relationship? Is it good to have insecurity and be jealous? Or is it more harmful to the relationship long-term when someone is insecure and jealous?

• 48:38Eric Barker?

  This is such a fascinating question because I, I, I wish there was a one-word simple answer. And the thing is, there isn't because first and foremost,

• 48:48Eric Barker?

  the purpose of jealousy and insecurity in a relationship is a positive one. When, when they took a group of people and they looked at who were dating and they, they measured them on levels of jealousy. Then they checked back in four years later. Some of them had split them up. Some of them had stayed together. It was the people who felt somewhat more jealous who stuck together.

• 49:09Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 49:10Eric Barker?

  The purpose of jealousy seems to be to protect the relationship.

• 49:14Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 49:14Eric Barker?

  Now, obviously at extreme ends, this can be pathological. But if somebody doesn't seem to care at all and doesn't seem to do anything to defend the relationship, that's not a great sign either. So we're looking at a mid-range. We're looking at a healthy amount where, hey, that's sound, this seems like a negative. I, I don't want the relationship to end. I want to protect it. That shows investment.

• 49:39Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 49:40Eric Barker?

  Too much, if this person is perpetually concerned that everything is a negative, this can be someone who's dealing with more, more serious issues.

• 49:49Lewis Howes?

  What about the relationships that have lasted 30, 40 years that are super happy still?

• 49:53Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 49:54Lewis Howes?

  Or are they jealous? Or is it more of like, I'm investing in ways to protect the relationships, growth and fulfillment and bond without being insecure and jealous that you're going off with your girlfriends?

• 50:06Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 50:06Lewis Howes?

  Or guy friends.

• 50:07Eric Barker?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:08Lewis Howes?

  What, what are those?

• 50:10Eric Barker?

  You, when you look at people who have been in happy marriages for decades, it, it's crazy. It's, this is a small portion of people, but some people, when they're put in an MRI scanner, their brains look, 40 years later, look like people who are newly in love.

• 50:23Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 50:24Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 50:24Lewis Howes?

  How?

• 50:25Eric Barker?

  And it's actually better, because when you look at people who are newly in love, there's these positive emotions, brains throwing up sparks.

• 50:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Eric Barker?

  You know?

• 50:32Lewis Howes?

  It's healing. You know, they call, they call it sexual healing, right? It's like this feeling, yeah.

• 50:37Eric Barker?

  It is, it is comparable to amphetamine. They are feeling great, but there's also the anxiety, because we're always a little bit scared.

• 50:44Lewis Howes?

  What if I lose it? What if it's gone?

• 50:46Eric Barker?

  When you look at people who have, who are still in love decades later, it's all positives without the anxiety. You know, it's-

• 50:54Lewis Howes?

  How do you get to a place of all positives without, without stress and anxiety in an intimate relationship?

• 50:58Eric Barker?

  I mean, part of that is the issue of ongoing communication, where it's like somebody comes up, we deal with it. When Gottman looked at what produced, you know, a great marriage, he found it was five to one, you know, five positives for every one negative. But here was the interesting thing, because that, that's, we've heard that a few times. What's fascinating is if you get down to like one to one, not good, one good for every bad, that's headed for divorce. 13 to one was also bad. 13 goods for one, 13 goods for every bad was also bad, because what that meant was somebody's not speaking up. Somebody is having issues, is having concerns-

• 51:36Lewis Howes?

  And they're just neglecting their-

• 51:38Eric Barker?

  And they're letting it build up.

• 51:39Lewis Howes?

  Well, this is why, I mean, I don't know, I'm, I'm trying to figure out, I'm trying to self-analyze myself, because- Because I told my partner Martha, I was like, listen, there's nothing you can do that will make me upset at you. I said this a year ago when we first started dating. Now, maybe, you know, frustrated or, you know, confused or something like that, or like, huh, I didn't like that, let's talk about it.

• 52:03Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 52:04Lewis Howes?

  But for me to get upset means there's something that I'm a prisoner to. I'm a prisoner to you doing something and I react to it. That means it's something I gotta work on.

• 52:13Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 52:13Lewis Howes?

  Something I gotta process and learn to heal and move through, so I'm not triggered. I may not like something, but reacting with anger-

• 52:20Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 52:21Lewis Howes?

  Is more about me than what you do.

• 52:23Eric Barker?

  Absolutely.

• 52:23Lewis Howes?

  And if you do something out of integrity that may be harmful for the relationship- We get to communicate it and then make a decision on what's gonna happen, but me getting anger,

• 52:32Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 52:32Lewis Howes?

  Angry is about me and the things I need to work on. That's at least my perspective. And that's why I said I will do consistent, you know, coaching and therapy every two weeks to improve myself.

• 52:45Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 52:45Lewis Howes?

  And we'll do it together so that we can talk through these things as opposed to waiting or just neglecting it. It's like a consistent communication, like you said.

• 52:54Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 52:55Lewis Howes?

  But the thirteen to one, I feel like we're thirteen to one, or maybe more, because we're in consistent conversation about

• 53:01Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 53:02Lewis Howes?

  Maybe something that's unsettling.

• 53:03Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 53:03Lewis Howes?

  She does a really good job of communicating and saying, listen, hey, I want to talk to you about something. You didn't do anything wrong, but I just want to be able to talk about this. I'm like, okay, cool. I don't need to be defensive.

• 53:12Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 53:13Lewis Howes?

  You're not attacking me, right? And let's address it.

• 53:16Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 53:16Lewis Howes?

  So it doesn't feel like a bad thing. It's more like a, oh, we're, we're communicating and there's some, you know, messiness, but let's get through it and then we come together stronger.

• 53:25Eric Barker?

  Yeah. Well, you're, you're, you're bleeding off all of the difficulties. You're, you're, I mean, you're doing a great job of like keeping, keeping the line out of the red. I mean, it's like by with that ongoing communication and, and I mean, you, you are basically practicing, you know, CBT in yourself, you know, it's like cognitive behavioral therapy, most proven, most demonstrated method, you know, is that issue of it's, you know, is that basically the adversity is not what causes our emotions. Our beliefs are what causes our emotions. And when we have unrealistic irrational beliefs, this should never happen. Nobody should treat me like this.

• 54:00Lewis Howes?

  Oh, then.

• 54:01Eric Barker?

  You can't control that. I can't control how other people act. I can't control how the world deals with me. So that issue of when you say, hey, okay, my belief, you know, I, this does happen. People do do this. These things do occur. You're having rational assumptions about the world and your, your feelings are never getting out of control.

• 54:19Lewis Howes?

  Right. It's never like too crazy high or too crazy low. It's like you might have some movement, but it's like trying to have a conscious, rational thought.

• 54:27Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 54:28Lewis Howes?

  And not take everything so personally.

• 54:29Eric Barker?

  It never gets to the level of anger. It stays at like rational disappointment.

• 54:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. Or I feel uncomfortable. I didn't like this feeling.

• 54:36Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 54:36Lewis Howes?

  But I don't need to explode on someone.

• 54:38Eric Barker?

  Oh, yeah. You're, you're not demanding that the universe give you what you want. You have realistic preferences.

• 54:42Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 54:43Eric Barker?

  I would prefer this.

• 54:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:44Eric Barker?

  But I'm not insisting that.

• 54:46Lewis Howes?

  And so let's communicate about it, right?

• 54:48Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 54:48Lewis Howes?

  Essentially, it was sad. Uh, something came up. I can't remember what you were just saying, but it came up to me that like,

• 54:55Lewis Howes?

  You know, one day, every relationship ends in this physical world, right? It's like, and I told Martha, my girlfriend, early on, I go, you know, isn't it sad that one day I'm gonna be at your funeral or you're gonna be at mine? It's most likely what's gonna happen. You know, if we're together for, you know, a long period of time, and I hope we are, that's probably what's gonna happen. And it's sad to think about that you're gonna be at the funeral of the person you care about the most. It's really sad to think about. But it brings me back into now and how can I appreciate what we're creating together right now the most? Make the most of it, have a great time, you know, let things go that don't matter

• 55:39Lewis Howes?

  that much, communicate, you're not suppressed those things, but let them go or communicate through it to then align on what do we value, what are our agreements? So that we're on the same team. And I think that perspective has given me a beautiful gift of appreciation. And how important is appreciation, gratitude, and acknowledging your partner in an intimate relationship?

• 56:05Eric Barker?

  I mean, beyond, I mean, first and foremost, you know, one of the most, look at all the happiness research, gratitude is like the tactic number one.

• 56:15Eric Barker?

  Because just that issue, it's amazing, because not only is that issue of you're not taking things for granted, you're appreciating them, you're realizing that the world could have been differently, you know, but so many other things, when we focus on that money, that thing, that achievement. It's amazing that gratitude is just a perspective shift. It doesn't cost anything.

• 56:35Lewis Howes?

  It's a simple shift.

• 56:36Eric Barker?

  It doesn't cost anything, we just have to take the time to realize how much worse could things have been? It didn't have to go this way. And one of the things, this, most of this is work by Martin Seligman at University of Pennsylvania, is that not only does gratitude help us, but one of the most powerful things we can do to make someone else happy is what he calls a gratitude visit, which is, schedule a time with somebody, maybe it's your partner, you know, you schedule some time, and beforehand, you write up like a single page letter, and just tell them all the wonderful things that they've done for you, and how much it's impacted you, and how much it's changed you, and how much you appreciate it. You schedule a time, you don't tell them what's gonna transpire, you sit down and you read the letter to them. First off, you better have tissues because most people cry.

• 57:21Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 57:22Eric Barker?

  And second off, this has been shown to increase the other person's happiness for months afterwards. How often do we feel like people aren't supporting us, don't think about us, don't appreciate us? To sit down and schedule a time and make it all about them, to have prepared, to have made a list. How flattering is that? And how great is that to give someone else that gift? It is one of the most powerful happiness exercises that we have for both people. Is exactly what you said, to deliberately consciously show gratitude that way.

• 58:01Lewis Howes?

  You know, this is something that we've been doing in our relationship every night together. We share three things we're grateful for before we go to bed.

• 58:09Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 58:09Lewis Howes?

  And usually a couple of them are geared towards each other, right? It's like, I'm so grateful for you for doing this and I appreciate you for this. And it just, man, it just creates so much harmony in the relationship. Now, I'm sure people listening or watching might be saying, well, that's, that's easy to do in the first year. You know, but wait till you, everyone says, wait till you have kids. Wait till you're busier, wait till this. I get it, I'm not saying there's not new challenges or adversity to face. But I think if this is not the baseline of what you're creating, before more challenges come up.

• 58:45Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 58:46Lewis Howes?

  It's going to be harder when there's challenges, when you have less sleep. When you're overworked or overwhelmed because of distractions or because big responsibilities or health crises. I get it.

• 58:57Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 58:57Lewis Howes?

  And that's why I think it's so important in the beginning of a relationship to set the deep foundation with time, with vulnerability, like you said, and with these practices. I love this gratitude visit. You know, it's the giving the gift of gratitude to your partner, to your friends. And the connection and the bond you'll create because of that is.

• 59:18Eric Barker?

  Powerful.

• 59:19Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 59:20Eric Barker?

  I mean, I think that's an amazing practice that you guys do. And Bill, you know, having, building a habit together of cleaning the bathroom is great. Building a habit like this is even better because Shelley Gable at UCSB has done some really interesting counterintuitive research that basically shows for a lot of couples, how they celebrate is more important than how they fight. We think fighting bad, that's going to destroy the relationship. Yeah, but it's like, if you're just focused on bringing up to average, you know, you've got to focus on the positive, you've got to increase the positives. So when couples have a great time together, when they celebrate together, that's why some people occasionally stay in difficult relationships because even though there's bads, there's also some commensory goods. Well, if we don't have the bad, but we add in the good.

• 1:00:04Eric Barker?

  And she talks about that issue. In the formal terminology, they call it capitalization. Whereas you had a good day, tell me about it. This was great, let me be the cheerleader. I am so happy for you. I am so excited for you.

• 1:00:17Lewis Howes?

  Let's celebrate it.

• 1:00:18Eric Barker?

  That every day, if couples get together, how did your day go? And it's kind of like that capitalizing on those positives. You're doing a version of that where it's kind of what went well today, here's the things I'm grateful for. When you capitalize on that, when you become the supporter, you're in their corner, you know, I am involved, I know what's going on, I'm supportive of the positive, I'm enthusiastic. I mean, that's what we all want.

• 1:00:42Lewis Howes?

  That's really cool, yeah. And what about the world of social media right now? Is social media in general good for a relationship or more challenging for a relationship when people are on and involved in social media in different ways?

• 1:01:01Eric Barker?

  This is one of those areas that's mixed because we hear so many negatives and it's, you know, it can be good, it can be bad. What it comes down to is we still need face-to-face contact. When you look at cancer support groups, there are some cancer support groups that are face-to-face, there are some that are virtual. When you look at the virtual groups, there's a double-digit percentage often of these people in cancer support groups who are feeling clinically depressed. When you look at the face-to-face groups, the level of clinical depression is often zero.

• 1:01:33Lewis Howes?

  They're less depressed. They might be sad from like sickness.

• 1:01:36Eric Barker?

  But not, but it's not.

• 1:01:38Lewis Howes?

  It's not debilitating, yeah.

• 1:01:39Eric Barker?

  That face to face.

• 1:01:40Lewis Howes?

  They have some hope. They have more connection. They have community.

• 1:01:42Eric Barker?

  Yeah, interesting. We need an element of face to face. And that issue of social media, hey, if somebody's a close friend, they live 3,000 miles away. Maybe the DM is the easiest way for you to coordinate.

• 1:01:54Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:01:55Eric Barker?

  But the question to be asking is, am I using social media in order to orchestrate and facilitate face to face, deep connections? Or am I using it to replace them, to cannibalize them? That's really the critical thing. If you use any form of social media to organize a face to face get together, it's a positive, no doubt.

• 1:02:17Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 1:02:18Eric Barker?

  If they're 3,000 miles away, you know, hey, this is what we got until the next time we can connect face to face. But when it starts cannibalizing it, when it's too difficult, I don't want to get off the couch, I don't. When it becomes a replacement, that's where it can become really difficult. That's where it can become problematic. We want to make sure that we're leveraging it in order to get to face to face, to get to those deeper connections. Because there's a lot of things we're going to say face to face, we're going to explore face to face, that we're never going to do via text.

• 1:02:46Lewis Howes?

  And what about when it's an intimate relationship and people are using social media? What are the the do's and don'ts of using social media to either bond the intimate relationship more or that cause stress in an intimate relationship?

• 1:03:01Eric Barker?

  There, the critical aspect in terms of an intimate relationship is don't keep secrets. Right. Because there's there's one book that was written by a former divorce lawyer and he talks about how much, how many of his cases were started by Facebook? Don't be communicating or communicating in a way that you would not feel comfortable sharing with your partner.

• 1:03:23Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:03:24Eric Barker?

  Don't keep secrets. You can communicate with an ex. If your partner knows about that, is cool with it, if you would feel comfortable showing them the messages, there's not a problem. Once you're keeping secrets and saying things you shouldn't be saying and you're concerned, if you're concerned that they might see those messages, then you might want to think twice.

• 1:03:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, don't engage.

• 1:03:44Eric Barker?

  Exactly.

• 1:03:44Lewis Howes?

  That's smart. Just, or keep it like prayer hands, you know, just like a simple response.

• 1:03:49Eric Barker?

  One emoji, no more.

• 1:03:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's it. Just like thumbs up, you know. It's more of a neutral communication. I love this.

• 1:03:59Lewis Howes?

  I want to go back to kind of the beginning and bring it full circle. You mentioned about how the relationships that are happy, they don't maybe have traditional roles from society that they live up to, but they create their own roles is what I think I heard you say. How important is it with masculine and feminine energy to have a certain type of role and responsibility? Is it okay for one party to be doing a lot more of the heavy lifting in a relationship and the other one less? Is it better for both parties to say, okay, here's my share of the effort and energy

• 1:04:40Lewis Howes?

  that I'm going to work on for logistics and house and money and food and all these other things, kids? And the other one have their kind of responsibilities and roles? How does it really work? Because it seems like now people can do anything they want, they can say anything they want, they can change anything they want at any moment. Is that too confusing for a relationship without the stability of roles and responsibilities that are both agreed upon?

• 1:05:08Eric Barker?

  Yeah, this is why it's so hard. This is why it's so hard. But the thing is, again, it comes down to the assumptions. You know, if there aren't clear defaults, if you're not taking standard roles, the first thing to remember is that as long as everybody is honest and forthright, then fairness is not an issue, as long as everybody is honest and forthright. If somebody wants to do more of this, they enjoy it, that's fine. If they don't feel like, hey, we need to be sharing this, and they're straightforward about it, need to talk, need to have a conversation. Because it's not that issue, there is no default fairness. There's how much do you feel comfortable with? What value do they bring? What do you need?

• 1:05:53Eric Barker?

  Because once we get so tied up into fair, we all have irrational wants. We all have things that contradict each other. But we can't resolve that until we talk about it. Because some things that feel so big to you can feel small to your partner and vice versa. There are some things you'd be happy to do, it's no big deal, but they think it's a big lift, they think it's a big ask. It's really putting it out there. Because once you do something more akin to what you did, where it's like you said, we're going to go to the therapy, we're going to talk about all these things. I don't think there was probably a lot left. Things are gonna change. You know, you'd software updates.

• 1:06:32Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 1:06:33Eric Barker?

  You know, but it's like, once you put it out there, it's like, okay, I understand. This is mine, that's yours, these might change.

• 1:06:39Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:06:39Eric Barker?

  But I think a lot of people are afraid that's going to cause conflict. So they don't want to talk about it. So they nod their head and that compounds. And that's not good.

• 1:06:49Lewis Howes?

  That's not good.

• 1:06:50Eric Barker?

  If you want the happiest relationships that we have today, it is an issue of just getting it all out there and making it clear, even if it's scary and ugly.

• 1:06:58Lewis Howes?

  Isn't that true of getting it all out, not hiding anything until after you're married? And then saying, okay, well, here's what I really want. Then you're like, oh, man.

• 1:07:05Eric Barker?

  Well, yeah, then, then, then you're gonna be focused on changing the other person. And that's not gonna be good.

• 1:07:13Lewis Howes?

  This is powerful stuff, man.

• 1:07:16Lewis Howes?

  Play well with others. The surprising science behind why everything you know about relationships is mostly wrong. I'm curious, I want people to get the book. I want them to follow you. You have an amazing newsletter as well. What's the main place we can go to for the newsletter? And you personally on social media?

• 1:07:35Eric Barker?

  Yeah, my URL on my blog is a little tricky. So people go to ericbarker.org. E R I C B A R K E R dot O R G.

• 1:07:43Lewis Howes?

  That'll take them to the site, right?

• 1:07:44Eric Barker?

  That'll take them to my website. And yeah, my newsletter comes out weekly. I'm always looking at the latest research on how we can be better.

• 1:07:50Lewis Howes?

  That's amazing.

• 1:07:53Lewis Howes?

  What would you say are the, the biggest, I don't know if Gottman or someone else said this. What are the, what are the, besides the four horsemen, what are the biggest topics that cause the most stress? That potentially end a relationship or a marriage? The topic of money, the topic of how to raise kids, religion,

• 1:08:17Lewis Howes?

  families, like how families are involved in the relationship. And I guess sex.

• 1:08:25Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:26Lewis Howes?

  Which of those are, you know, cause more conflict and divorce than the rest of them, would you say? Are they all kind of equal?

• 1:08:38Eric Barker?

  Finances is usually number one.

• 1:08:40Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think money is such a big problem in relationships?

• 1:08:42Eric Barker?

  I mean, first and foremost, it's because it's that quantification of values. Where it's just like you're seeing, first off, I mean, obviously people, people need money in order to live. So that seems like a big threat.

• 1:08:56Eric Barker?

  The other things can be worked out, you know, but when you see that your partner ideas on what is important and money is a measure of what's important are completely misaligned with yours, it can create an enormous amount of stress.

• 1:09:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:10Eric Barker?

  You know, you really see that it can feel like somebody doesn't respect if you're if you're the breadwinner, it feels like somebody doesn't respect your efforts. Or if you're not the breadwinner, it can feel like somebody else is not doing their share to to keep this safe and stable. So for both sides, that issue of money can be really challenging because it is an existential threat to not only your relationship, but your life.

• 1:09:33Lewis Howes?

  To livelihood, to staying alive.

• 1:09:35Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Lewis Howes?

  I'm so excited about this. I want people to get the book. A lot of good science and research in here about how to, you know, shift your thinking around relationships, not only intimate relationships, but friends, family, colleagues as well in business. So make sure you guys pick up a copy of the book. Check out your newsletter as well. Couple of final questions. This is called the three truths. I'm not sure if I asked you this last time.

• 1:09:57Eric Barker?

  Okay.

• 1:09:58Lewis Howes?

  Hypothetical scenario, imagine it's your last day on earth, many years away. You live as long as you want to live. You accomplish everything that you want to do. You live a happy life, but for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you to the next place. So no one has access to this book, this podcast, or anything you've ever written or create in the future. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, three things you know to be true from all experiences in life. What would be those three truths for you to leave behind?

• 1:10:31Eric Barker?

  Do more, not less. You don't want to regret things. Number two is show gratitude. You know, it's the most powerful way to feel happy. And number three, nine times out of 10, you won't go wrong with compassion.

• 1:10:47Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, that's beautiful, man.

• 1:10:49Eric Barker?

  That's probably what it is.

• 1:10:50Lewis Howes?

  Before I ask the final question, Eric, I want to acknowledge you and express gratitude for the way you continually dive into research to find solutions for us. You know, you're obsessive about How to improve our lives. And this book on relationships is really powerful because people are suffering and struggling a lot in their relationships right now. It's confusing, like you said, it's, there's a lot of dynamics and just understanding people and how, and understanding yourself.

• 1:11:15Eric Barker?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:16Lewis Howes?

  So I really acknowledge you for spending years on this research, packaging it in a way so we can understand it and start applying this in our own lives. It's really powerful, man.

• 1:11:25Eric Barker?

  Thank you.

• 1:11:26Lewis Howes?

  You're welcome. And my final question, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:11:30Eric Barker?

  My definition of greatness?

• 1:11:34Eric Barker?

  A feeling of meaning in collaboration with others. Like when I feel my life is not happy in the moment, but I feel like I'm doing something meaningful and it's creating a feeling of belonging. That's one of the things I talk about in the book is that issue that what most creates a feeling of meaning is a feeling of belonging. When I feel meaning in life and it has to do with connecting to others, like in the end, that's, that's, you're not gonna do better than that.

• 1:12:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, there you go. Eric, thanks, brother. Appreciate it, man.

• 1:12:03Eric Barker?

  Thanks, man.

• 1:12:04Lewis Howes?

  Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.