Pod Insights Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society Wife-Swapping Magician of the Tudor Court About this episode The 16th century was a dangerous time to be talking about magic and hidden forces, so how did John Dee end up being invited into Elizabeth I's court?
He was an astronomer, occultist and alchemist who dedicated his life to understanding how celestial activity influenced life on earth.
What happened when he thought angels told him to swap wives with another mystic? How did his influence impact the Tudor court? And why was he never accused of witchcraft?
Joining Kate today is Rachel Morris, author of The Years of the Wizard: The Strange History and Home Life of Renaissance Magicians https://septemberpublishing.org/product/the-years-of-the-wizard-the-strange-history-and-home-life-of-renaissance-magicians-hb/.
This episode was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.
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0:00 Kate Lister? Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.
0:35 Kate Lister? Hello, my lovely betwixters! It's me, Kate Lester. You are listening to Betwixt the Sheets, but before you're allowed to, I have to give you the fair dues warning to make sure everything is safe and above board, so here it fricking is. This is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. And if you can't say hell yes to all of that, then be off with you. And for the rest of you, let's get on with the show.
1:07 Kate Lister? Do you believe in horoscopes? No, I don't either. I think they're a load of absolute bum fluff. Or maybe that's just the kind of thing that a Libra would say. But way back in the 16th century, when worlds were expanding, the stars took on a huge significance, especially to the elites, and you can bet your bottom dollar that they believed in star signs. Step forward, John Dee, who was a Cancer sign, by the way, and he was also a man who used his gender and his class privileges extremely well, in a time when meddling about with hidden forces and dark entities could get you burnt at the stake as a heretic. But what exactly was John Dee's horoscope? What did the stars have in store for him? Hmm?
1:52 Kate Lister? A spot of wife swapping, perhaps? Now, I am no mystic or astrologer, but I am sensing not everything is above board here, but maybe that's just Cancer's for you. I don't know, maybe they're all doing wife swapping, but let's get on with the show and find out.
2:31 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kit Lister. I'll be honest, magicians weird me out at the best of times. They do, and if they're not weirding me out, I find them slightly boring. "Oh, look, you found my card, well done."
2:47 Kate Lister? That's just me being horrible, sorry. Sorry to all magicians listening, but John Dee was an especially weird magician. Granted, he wasn't, as far as I know, pulling rabbits out of any kind of hats. He wasn't that kind of a magician. He was more into the way that the heavens could potentially influence life here on Earth. And as we will find out, that weirdly involved wife swapping as well. Huh. But what did his long-suffering wife Jane make of all of this? Why did he have the ear of the Virgin Queen Elizabeth herself? And did any of his predictions, horoscopes, or palm readings have any truth to them at all? Joining me today is historian and author Rachel Morris, who is going to help us get
3:30 Kate Lister? to know this man and his wife a little bit better, not to mention telling us why the Tudors were obsessed with magic. And talking of a sprinkling of magic, you may have noticed that we have a new look and a new sound on Betwix today. Yeah, we've refreshed our art cover and our music. You didn't go to the wrong place, don't worry. Did that take you by surprise? Don't worry about it, you'll be fine next time. We just thought we'd give the place a bit of a spruce up, you know, now that we're an award-winning podcast and all. You've got to keep the standards up, don't we? Of course we do. I mean, that's exactly the kind of thing that a Libra would do, right? Well, let's get on with the show and find out.
4:15 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Rachel Morris. How are you doing?
4:21 Speaker 01 I'm doing absolutely fine. And things good for you?
4:24 Kate Lister? Everything is fabulous for me. Now, your book is about to come out, isn't it? Let's give it its full title. Years of the Wizard: The Strange History and Home Life of Renaissance Magicians.
4:35 Speaker 01 That's right.
4:36 Kate Lister? It's being published on the 9th of October. So I think when people are listening, it'll be available in the shops. This sounds fascinating. Renaissance magicians. Rachel, why did you want to tell this story?
4:49 Speaker 01 Well, it is an amazing story. I came across it slightly by accident. It was during Covid and I was searching my bookshelves for something to read. And this book just sort of fell into my hands. I'd bought it and then forgotten to read it. And it is an astonishing story on many, many levels. It's partly about a particular form of magic which was around in the 16th century, which was very beautiful. I mean, it's lovely stuff, a lot of it. Whether or not you actually believe it, it's beautiful.
5:18 Kate Lister? Okay.
5:19 Speaker 01 But on a human level, it was an amazing story about what it was like to be married to a magician. A man who believed he was a magician, if you know what I mean.
5:30 Kate Lister? And we're not talking like Debbie McGee here, are we? Because like when we say magician in the Renaissance court, what do you mean by magician? Because weren't they like burning people for being witches and things like that? Like what, how do they square that circles? Magicians, fine. Witch, bad.
5:46 Speaker 01 Well, that's a really good question. It's partly status and it's partly gender.
5:51 Kate Lister? There we go.
5:52 Speaker 01 As always in life. So a Renaissance magician of the male kind, men like John Dee, were highly educated. They had libraries. They were often, we would recognise them as early scientists. But they had a sort of strong streak of magic and mysticism running through the way they thought. They were highly regarded. John Dee was welcome at court. He was Queen Elizabeth's astrologer. Everyone then believed in astrology. So there was that kind of magic. And then there was the magic of witches and fairies and so on.
6:29 Speaker 01 And that was much more, let's say, lower class in that it was common in the rural counties and it was common, all kinds of people believed in fairies and so on. But that was a different kind of magic.
6:46 Kate Lister? It's funny, we can like tie ourselves up in knots trying to make these kind of distinctions or people in the past were in a state of cognitive dissonance of like this magic is okay, this magic is not okay, this one is very, very not okay and this one is holy. It's so fascinating how that happens. But John Dee is a rich magician.
7:08 Speaker 01 Well, he is, I mean, to be fair, you had to be careful.
7:13 Kate Lister? I bet.
7:13 Speaker 01 What you said and did, even if you were John Dee and even if you had lots of friends in high places. So you trod a little carefully here.
7:23 Kate Lister? Yeah.
7:23 Speaker 01 But on the whole, John Dee was only arrested once in his lifetime and he was never burnt at the stake, you know, and he was never tried for witchcraft. So so long as you were careful, you could tread.
7:35 Kate Lister? Okay.
7:36 Speaker 01 A careful path through it.
7:37 Kate Lister? Now, court magician sounds like the maddest job, but was this something? How do you reply for that? I suppose what I'm asking is, like, let's talk about where John Dee even came from and how he ended up in the court of Elizabeth the first doing what he was doing.
7:54 Speaker 01 Well, that's a very good question. He didn't come from the working classes, though he wasn't an aristocrat either. He was incredibly clever, very talented, went to university, got a reputation for scholarship. From the beginning, he loved books and he bought a lot of books on magic and he had friends in high places. He was a tutor to some of Elizabeth's aristocratic. Friends.
8:23 Kate Lister? Right.
8:23 Speaker 01 He just found his way into that world.
8:26 Kate Lister? I see, okay. When does he turn up in the records as somebody that's, magic just sounds like such a strange word to use, but like doing astrology and what other kind of stuff would he even be be doing?
8:42 Speaker 01 Well, he was Queen Elizabeth's astrologer. He was also pursuing alchemy, but then so were plenty of other people at the time. The pursuit of the philosopher's stone. He was seeking to understand astronomy and the heavens. He was interested in the new ideas that were emerging around the stars and that kind of thing.
9:03 Kate Lister? Oh.
9:05 Speaker 01 He was pretty much everything and anything interested him. He was very wide ranging.
9:10 Kate Lister? This sounds quite sciency.
9:12 Speaker 01 He was quite sciency, but just as you think you've got a hold on him as an early scientist, he then does something unexpected, like
9:21 Kate Lister? Oh.
9:22 Speaker 01 believing in the philosopher's stone or believing in astrology. We don't believe in astrology these days particularly. Back then, many people did. So he slides in and out of what we recognise as recognisable thinking, if you know.
9:39 Kate Lister? Yeah, but he's very smart. He's very learned. He's tutoring people and he kind of gets into the Tudor court by association. Is that sort of what we're saying of people going, oh, I know a good astrologer?
9:53 Speaker 01 Yes, that sort of thing.
9:55 Kate Lister? So when does he start working for Elizabeth the first? Because that's a hell of a gig.
10:00 Speaker 01 It was a hell of a gig. He was there at her coronation, so that's back in the 1560s. She visited him in his house at Mortlake, which is a sign of his status. She didn't visit people very often, not people who were not aristocrats.
10:16 Kate Lister? No.
10:17 Speaker 01 But she came to Mortlake at least once by carriage overland from the palace at Richmond.
10:23 Kate Lister? Wow.
10:24 Speaker 01 And she came, I think, by river as well. So that's a sign of her status.
10:29 Kate Lister? Yeah.
10:30 Speaker 01 He held on to that status pretty much through the 1570s. And then came his great adventure overseas when his life took a turn in a completely different direction.
10:46 Kate Lister? Well, before we get to that, what would Elizabeth? Want him for, I mean, I know he's doing his philosopher's stone, he's doing his alchemy, but is it the horoscope that she would have wanted? She would have wanted him to look at the stars and give her advice?
10:59 Speaker 01 Yes, that was certainly one of the things. Remember, she herself was very learned. She herself was highly, highly educated. The evidence suggests that she was interested in even quite sympathetic to some ideas around magic back in the 1560s. As the century wore on, there was a distinct turn against magic. And so by the 1590s, it was definitely out of fashion. But back then, she was curious. She was interested. She was always interested in the possibility of being able to turn lead into gold, because like so many people at the time, she needed the money.
11:40 Kate Lister? Right. If that's a possibility, I'm interested too.
11:44 Speaker 01 Aren't we all?
11:46 Kate Lister? She was a Virgo, Elizabeth. I looked this up before we started talking, but I'm assuming that when we're saying that John Dee was an astrologer, an astronomer, or both of them, it's not that he was just coming up with her horoscope like you see in the weekly papers that you'd look up, oh, you'll be lucky in love today, da, da, da, da, da. Like, what would he have been doing? This isn't like Mystic Mag, is it?
12:11 Speaker 01 No. So one of the things that would have interested him is the idea, which was quite common at the time, of as above, so below, which means that
12:21 Kate Lister? As above, so below.
12:22 Speaker 01 They were curious to understand whether there was a relationship between what happened in the heavens and what happened down on earth.
12:29 Kate Lister? Aha.
12:30 Speaker 01 So if there were comets, if there were strange events, if there were eclipses, did that signify things happening down below on the earth? Because there was this sort of feeling that we were connected, that there was in us a bit of the universe, if you know what I mean.
12:49 Kate Lister? Okay.
12:50 Speaker 01 Which is a lovely idea. I mean, whether or not it's true, but it is kind of beautiful, that sort of sense of as above, so below. So it became quite important to understand what was happening in the heavens.
13:01 Kate Lister? And I suppose if you're about to go to war, or if you're running an empire and a nation, having somebody there that can possibly look up in the heavens and go, oh, the fates are aligned, and give you some kind of advice would be quite reassuring.
13:14 Speaker 01 I think so, or at least necessary, because all the time you were trying to foresee into the future and trying to see where everything was going. I can understand it. This is all pre-enlightenment thinking. This is all, you know, this is all before we all got very sciency. But it wasn't irrational to think maybe there's a relationship. And certainly, it's reasonable to try and explore it and see if it's true.
13:41 Kate Lister? Is there any records left of the kind of predictions, readings that he gave Elizabeth?
13:48 Speaker 01 Well, we do know that through the 1570s, there were comets seen in the sky. There were sort of things which could be read as portents, things that were happening, enough to make you wonder. And remember also, there were plenty of people who believed that the world only had a short time span, that it might end any minute, that it wasn't unusual to believe that the world was coming to an end. So for all those reasons, someone who was prepared to think about all this was a useful person to have around.
14:23 Kate Lister? It's kind of mad, isn't it, to think that so many of the the greatest decisions of that age might have been in part based on John Dee sat in his flat going, oh, Capricorns in rising. Oh, I think we should definitely attack the Spanish.
14:38 Speaker 01 Indeed. And it does feel crazy, but it didn't seem so crazy then, I think.
14:46 Kate Lister? No, no, not at all.
14:47 Speaker 01 I think it's really useful to try and see history in its own terms.
14:52 Kate Lister? And I think people have still have a belief in this kind of stuff today, don't they?
14:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, but it's not mainstream, or at least if any of our politicians are thinking like this, they're definitely not telling us.
15:04 Kate Lister? Well, no, so the state of the world, actually, at the moment, Rachel, is if perhaps if some political decisions were being made on astrology, I would feel slightly safer.
15:14 Speaker 01 I know exactly how you feel. Absolutely.
15:18 Kate Lister? So John Dee, he's got the ear of the Queen, he must be very influential. Was he a married man?
15:24 Speaker 01 He was, and he had a wife called Jane, and he had a sort of baby of little children. And we know he lived in a place called Mortlake, which is just to the west of London. And he kept diaries and scientific journals. And they're lovely because every now and again, you get this gorgeous reference to his domestic life. And that's the point at which he comes alive. And you forget the astronomy and the astrology, and you just think, oh, he was a human being. And that's lovely.
15:57 Kate Lister? What kind of human being? What did you get to know about him when you were reading these books?
16:01 Speaker 01 Well, there's a lovely moment, for instance, when he's, he records in his diary that his 12-year-old son Arthur is wounded on the head. And it goes roughly like this, by virtue of the wanton throwing up of a brickbat and the not well-observing the falling back of it again. Which is just beautiful.
16:23 Kate Lister? Oh, bless.
16:25 Speaker 01 That's what I thought. You can see the boy with his face lifted up, eyes wide, watching this thing coming down.
16:34 Kate Lister? Oh, so he seems to, he seemed to have been quite a loving father. And I understand it's very difficult at this kind of a distance, but he seems to have been quite involved in his family's life?
16:45 Speaker 01 I think he was. I think very definitely he was. I mean, he records a moment when his son Roland falls into the Thames.
16:53 Kate Lister? It's very accident-prone, his children.
16:55 Speaker 01 Very accident-prone. He fell into the Thames up to his ears around about noon, is what it records. He lived, it was all right.
17:04 Kate Lister? Oh, okay.
17:05 Speaker 01 I think he was a very involved father.
17:08 Kate Lister? Okay.
17:09 Speaker 01 I would even, well, no, I'm not, the question is, as you'll see from later on in the conversation, to what extent did he love his wife? I'm sure we're going to come back to that one. But he certainly loved domestic life. I think he loved a home and a family and that sense.
17:28 Speaker 01 Of this being his kingdom, his place.
17:31 Kate Lister? Hmm. Did he ever move into the royal court? Or did he always stay a bit of a home bud?
17:37 Speaker 01 He visited courts for sure. And he visited his aristocratic patrons, people who knew him. Mary Sidney, that sort of group of people, for instance. But I don't know that he ever lived in court. And I'm not aware that we can see it in his diaries.
17:57 Kate Lister? That's interesting. I don't know if he was ever offered that opportunity. But lots of advisers were allowed to live within the Queen's remit. And it'd be interesting if he was saying, oh, I'll just stay at home.
18:08 Speaker 01 I think it's, it's a good question and I think it's worth exploring. My guess is that he would have stayed at home.
18:15 Kate Lister? Bit of a home bud. Okay.
18:16 Speaker 01 He was a home bud, but also at home as well as his kids and his family lives and his servants and so on. There was also his library and he loved his library. He absolutely, he dreamt books.
18:31 Kate Lister? This makes sense.
18:36 Kate Lister? I'll be back with Rachel and John Dee after this short break.
18:47 Kate Lister? Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up a camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there. And the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.
19:29 Kate Lister? Let's talk about his wife, because this is one of the most, I find it particularly fascinating, this information about this man who seems to be kind of going along with like, oh, he's doing a bit of science and he's doing a bit of astrology, but it's all kind of like mainstream at the time. And then, as you were saying earlier, he'll throw you a curve ball and you go, John, what on earth is going on here? And a lot of that seems to be around his wife. So let's talk about her.
19:55 Speaker 01 Well, she was called Jane. She was much younger than him. She was his, I think, his third wife.
20:03 Kate Lister? Oh, John.
20:04 Speaker 01 By far the longest marriage. Those were brief marriages that ended. This was a long marriage with a lot of children coming from it. There are moments when you read the diaries and you think, oh, she loved him. It just comes across. But I grant you, it is always hard to detect those kind of emotions over a long distance of time. So you think, well, did she, didn't she? But I think to understand what happened with him and his wife, you also have to understand his medium, his squire.
20:33 Kate Lister? Yeah, let's talk about the medium.
20:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, because he's the other person in the situation. So in order to do the magic that John Dee wanted to do, which was to try and find out why the world had begun by talking to the angels. In order to do that, you needed a medium, somebody who would help you.
20:55 Kate Lister? Of course.
20:56 Speaker 01 Reach them. He tried several and then this guy turned up called Edward Kelly, who claimed to be able to talk to the angels. And the astonishing thing is that it's clear that John Dee didn't believe that he himself could talk to the angels, but he had absolute faith that Edward Kelly could.
21:15 Kate Lister? Okay.
21:16 Speaker 01 Now, we instantly see duplicity and so on and so on. And indeed, that is the only explanation. All I would say really is that he wasn't the only person attempting to speak to angels. It wasn't quite as outlandish as it seems to us now. It does seem quite crazy, but then it wouldn't have seemed so outlandish. It was still fairly unusual, but not to the point of craziness.
21:45 Kate Lister? It can't be that outlandish if he's already met a few people who say that they can do this and that he didn't believe them. It sounds, it sounds like there's a lot of people walking around at the time saying, I can commune with angels.
21:56 Speaker 01 Yes, well, indeed. I mean, literally speaking, the church.
22:00 Kate Lister? Oh, yeah.
22:01 Speaker 01 But certainly the church believed in angels, or at least the Catholic Church did. I think Protestants weren't so keen on the whole concept, but certainly if you were a God fearing religious nation and everyone believed in God, you would believe in the angels, you would believe in the Bible. So it, it kind of makes sense.
22:22 Kate Lister? I've met people who still believe in angels.
22:24 Speaker 01 Well, indeed.
22:25 Kate Lister? Believe in guardian angels.
22:26 Speaker 01 Yes, all those things.
22:28 Kate Lister? So what's Mr. Kelly doing then? Do you, I don't know if there is any records of this for you to kind of juice this. But what was Mr. Kelly doing that made him seem legit to John Dee?
22:40 Speaker 01 Well, that is a very good question and it's hard to know at this distance in time. I would say that Edward Kelly was John Dee's medium from the early fifteen eighties all the way through to fifteen eighty nine. And during that time, he built up a kind of vision spoken, if you see what I mean. A kind of vision of all these different characters, these angels, these spirits, all kinds.
23:08 Kate Lister? Quite intense, okay.
23:09 Speaker 01 Very intense. It's rather an amazing achievement. I mean, to keep it going for that long.
23:14 Kate Lister? Yeah.
23:15 Speaker 01 I couldn't keep something like that going for that long. And the spirits and the angels, they often had a backstory. One of the spirits which Edward Kelly claimed to see was a small girl aged about seven called Madimi. Where did that come from? It's baffling.
23:33 Kate Lister? It's very rich, this world that he's painting then. This isn't like a medium being like, oh, there's a spirit here. I think it's an older person. This is like properly, there's an angel here called Bertie who wants to talk to you. It's like that crystal clear.
23:48 Speaker 01 Exactly. And to the point at which you think these days he would have been a novelist, probably.
23:55 Kate Lister? Yeah, yeah, probably.
23:57 Speaker 01 And a very good one, probably. I think he was a great talker. But Edward Kelly claimed to be able to pass back messages from the angels, which would help John Dee understand all kinds of things about the world and why it was created and so on. And there comes a point where John Dee decides to go to Prague, which is the occult capital of Europe, and to take Jane and the children, the ones he's already had with him, but also to take Edward Kelly, the medium, and Edward Kelly's wife and her two small children. So the plan was for them all to go together.
24:38 Kate Lister? Family holiday.
24:39 Speaker 01 Well, indeed. And you feel for Jane because she's much younger than him. And she's being asked to take very small children all the way across Europe in winter.
24:51 Kate Lister? This isn't like nipping over on a jet to package holiday to Prague now, is it?
24:55 Speaker 01 No, it was a big, big deal to go that far. And she went.
25:00 Kate Lister? Wow, Jane, okay.
25:02 Speaker 01 There are references, I have to say, there are references in the diary. Sometimes he will write Jane in a ferociously bad temper. And you see why.
25:13 Kate Lister? I absolutely can see why. I have to go to Prague with the kids on a boat that'll probably take six months because some twerp said an angel told him to. I can see why she might object quite strongly to that.
25:26 Speaker 01 Indeed. I can so see her point of view in all this. But she went and they went by a mix of boats and carriage. And they went first to Poland and then they went to Prague. They were away in all six years.
25:40 Kate Lister? Holy, wow, okay, six years.
25:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was a big deal. It was a big deal. And she had children when she was out there.
25:47 Kate Lister? Whoa.
25:48 Speaker 01 She kept on having children. She was, that's one of the things she was able to do.
25:52 Kate Lister? Jane, wow.
25:54 Speaker 01 I know you feel for her. And so there she is, having children in this foreign country, whilst her husband and his medium are attempting to commune with the angels.
26:08 Kate Lister? I bet she was an Aries. The only an Aries would would would see this through without much stubbornness and determination.
26:14 Speaker 01 Well, that's an interesting thought, and I will now try and find out when she was born.
26:20 Speaker 01 And then we'll apply it back onto the story, a bit of the astrology.
26:23 Kate Lister? See, if that makes any kind of difference. But this is intense. This is a wild story. Six years, they're still having baby. And on the whole time, her husband and this medium are off talking to angels in this kind of fantasy world that they've created together.
26:38 Speaker 01 Well, what happened was that they did get to Prague by a sort of circuitous route. And for a while, things seemed to be going okay.
26:48 Kate Lister? Did everyone survive the journey, just out of interest? All the kids get there?
26:51 Speaker 01 As far as I know, they all survived the journey. But then it's clear that they got caught up in court politics. And there were a lot of people who approved but also disapproved of what was going on. And the result was that Dee and Kelly were expelled or asked to leave Prague. And they went to a place in Bohemia, which was south of Prague. And there, if you're ready for this bit of the story, came the great wife swap.
27:21 Kate Lister? Oh, no, go. Okay. Okay, I'm listening. What happens?
27:27 Speaker 01 So it's all recorded in the diaries. There comes a point when it seems that Edward Kelly is saying to John Dee, the spirits are telling us that we must do a wife swap. We must each sleep with the other. And it's wrapped up as a way of achieving harmony from north to south and east to west. And there was a strong feeling back then that it was good to aspire towards a world harmony. This was a world in much confusion and disarray. You know, there were a lot of wars, a lot of religious struggles going on. And so it's presented like that.
28:07 Speaker 01 All this, I have to say, is we are hearing through John Dee's diaries, repeating what Edward Kelly is claiming that the angels said to him. So it's all a bit indirect.
28:17 Kate Lister? What's John saying about this? He's going, great news, my horoscope was done today and.
28:21 Speaker 01 No, he doesn't. He goes, oh my God, you can't be serious, all words to that effect. And Edward Kelly says, I am. And there's a point in this whole saga where one of the angels through the mouths of Edward Kelly says to John Dee, your wife is dear to you, but your wisdom is dearer. And I kind of think he was a man of such obsessions that everything could be sacrificed to his obsessions. And that's not so unusual.
28:53 Kate Lister? Any news from Jane at this point, by the way? Any, any news of how she takes this particular?
28:58 Speaker 01 Jane is crying, Jane is weeping. And John Dee is saying, look, I think we're going to have to do it. And she agrees to do it. She agrees for the sake of his work. It's clear she doesn't want to do it.
29:10 Kate Lister? Clear she doesn't want to do it. So there's no chance that her and Edward Kelly are having a bit on the side and they're kind of, oh, like the horoscopes. No.
29:18 Speaker 01 Absolutely not. So they do it. They sign a pact and it happens.
29:25 Kate Lister? When they see wife swap, what does that mean? Does that just mean like, is that just sex or is that like literally swap? This is my wife now and this is your wife now forevermore. What?
29:33 Speaker 01 What's interesting about it is if you read on in the diaries, and here I have to say, I'm using a good diary, which has been, the language has been made accessible in the 21st century by Edward Fenton. It's a diary he produced. He edited the diaries at the end of the 1990s. If you read on in that diary, because of course the thought then occurs to you, hang on, if Edward Kelly is sleeping with Jane Dee, does that mean that John Dee is sleeping with Edward Kelly's wife?
30:03 Kate Lister? Oh, yes. Mrs. Kelly, we'd forgotten about her.
30:06 Speaker 01 I know, you see, and she has this very quiet presence in the story. So it is easy to forget about Edward Kelly's wife. But it seems, and the diaries are a bit ambiguous, as you would expect. But my interpretation is what happens is the angel says, Dee, was your brother's wife obedient to you? And Dee answers, I counted her obedient for what she did, whereof she thought her obedience did consist. For that she did not come after, as I thought she would. She mightn't seem in some part disobedient. But if it offendeth not God, it offendeth not me, and I beseech God it did not offend him.
30:49 Speaker 01 Which I think probably means that Edward Kelly's wife got out of it. She didn't do it. I don't think she did it.
30:58 Kate Lister? She didn't do it.
30:59 Speaker 01 She has a very quiet presence in history. It's hard to know. But the impression is that she was clever.
31:05 Kate Lister? Right.
31:05 Speaker 01 I think maybe she talked her way out of it, is my guess.
31:08 Kate Lister? And she must have been used to her husband talk about this, because she's just been sat there just going, oh, did he now? Is that what he said? The angels told him to do it. Just like the time he said that the angels told him that he had to have it away with Sheila down the road. And the other time and the other time.
31:21 Speaker 01 Possibly, possibly.
31:24 Kate Lister? That's not in the records, by the way, anybody. I'm just imagining.
31:28 Speaker 01 There is then a further reference, if you read on a bit further in the same diaries. You will find the further reference in which a golden woman, as described by Edward Kelly, appears to them. Says Edward Kelly, and she says, I am deflowered and yet a virgin. Happy is he that embraces me in the night season. I am in sweet and in the day full of pleasure. And the later on, a green woman who's standing next to the golden woman says, neither shall the things that shall be opened unto you be revealed unto your wives. So this is Edward Kelly, I think. My impression of the whole thing is that I don't think John Dee thought a lot about sex.
32:11 Speaker 01 But clearly Edward Kelly did. This is all coming through Edward Kelly.
32:15 Kate Lister? Oh, John.
32:16 Speaker 01 Yes, I know. And.
32:18 Kate Lister? John.
32:20 Speaker 01 I mean, a very clever man, but at times an idiot. And I think one of the things that. Makes one slightly less angry with him is that from this moment onwards, his life did go badly wrong.
32:41 Kate Lister? I'll be back with Rachel and John Dee after this short break.
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33:52 Kate Lister? If what you're saying is from the diaries that there was actually a lot of resistance to this, this is somebody that believes completely that an angel and that the spirit are telling him that this is what they want him to do. He wouldn't be the first person to have been conned by like a sort of like a cult leader, really, that would come out with this kind of stuff as well, is it? It sounds more like that than anything else.
34:14 Speaker 01 It does have that feeling of a cult. Cults always have a sort of sexual element in them.
34:19 Kate Lister? John.
34:20 Speaker 01 Yes, that was my feeling, John. Why? Was it worth it in pursuit of what you thought of as wisdom to do that?
34:29 Kate Lister? Did he get the wisdom? I mean, once that this is done and the, do we have any records about how Jane felt? Did she have sex with Edward? Did she manage to roll her eyes and go, I don't think so?
34:41 Speaker 01 No, she didn't talk her way out of it, I don't think, not as far as I can see.
34:45 Kate Lister? Right.
34:45 Speaker 01 What happened thereafter in the story is that... And this is a tragic thing. Jane got pregnant and we don't know who by, but it is the case that the relationship between the men fell apart. And in the end, John Dee came home with his family. Edward Kelly died abroad. John Dee came home to find that his library had been trashed.
35:09 Kate Lister? Oh, no.
35:11 Speaker 01 Many of the books were stolen. What's more, he was out of favour in court. That much is fairly clear. He hit hard times financially. He worked a bit in Manchester, but didn't enjoy it hugely. His wife died of the plague with two of his children and he came home a poor man and died in Mortlake. Or possibly in the city of London in the very last few days of his life. But all his fame, his importance, everything went.
35:42 Kate Lister? Why was that? Was that because he was off in Prague having threesomes directed by angels? Was that like a wider social shift?
35:51 Speaker 01 Well, it is not clear to what extent that was widely known at the time.
35:55 Kate Lister? Oh, they might not have known. Right, yeah, of course.
35:57 Speaker 01 They might not have known. Although it is interesting how word always did tend to get around.
36:03 Kate Lister? If they were thrown out of Prague, because you you said that Prague was like the occult epicentre of the time, but they were asked to leave Prague.
36:10 Speaker 01 Yes, because a lot was going on. There was a Catholic faction. There was a philosophic faction. When I say magic, it's for them, it was closer to philosophy. It was erudition.
36:23 Kate Lister? Okay.
36:24 Speaker 01 It was trying to understand the meaning of the world. And there were other people doing it. There were a lot of artists and poets there. It was a rather amazing place. I mean, I would have gone because it just so amazing.
36:37 Kate Lister? Definitely have gone.
36:38 Speaker 01 But factions came and went. The politics of it were quite intense. And yes, he was asked to leave.
36:45 Kate Lister? I suppose news of that might have got back to Britain that he was asked to leave, maybe.
36:50 Speaker 01 I think they knew something of what was going on because word had got back to Queen Elizabeth's court and to her advisers that they were attempting alchemy in Prague. And indeed, I do believe that they were even asking John Dee to reveal the secrets. What exactly had he done? Remember, all governments were in search of money at this time. They needed money. So they weren't going to close their eyes off to a possible way of getting it.
37:22 Kate Lister? Oh, he must have been gutted to come back after all that and just find he didn't have a job and all his books had been wrecked and that must have been pretty devastating.
37:31 Speaker 01 I think it was devastating. He was a man who adored his books. I mean, you feel that coming down the centuries. Yes, and I mean, he loved to sign his books. And he often doodled in his books, which was quite acceptable back then. So we can still trace some of those books. I mean, they turn up, there's a few in Manchester, there's some in Oxford, do you know, they, we can trace the journeys of the books. But quite why they were stolen isn't a hundred percent clear.
38:01 Kate Lister? Yeah. Is there any sense, I'm not sure how long his diaries continue for, but is there any sense of him going, whoops, that was a bad idea, maybe I regret that decision, maybe Edward Kelly was a bit of a charlatan or no?
38:16 Speaker 01 Not that I know of. And I do know that there are some references to alchemy in a trusting kind of way, as late as sixteen hundred, sixteen oh two, that those kind of dates. So, you know, nearly at the end of his life, he is still interested in alchemy.
38:33 Kate Lister? I feel quite sorry for him. Do you feel quite sorry for him?
38:36 Speaker 01 I oscillate. I have a lot of arguments about with people about this. John Dee is one of those people that you argue about. Do you know what I mean? Would you have liked him? Would you have wanted to go out to dinner with him? Would you have shouted at him? I think he paid such a price for his stupidness that that softens one's feelings.
38:58 Kate Lister? I feel the same way about him that I do about like people that get conned out of loads of money by some 22 year old who said that they definitely loved them and that they were going to run away together. And of course they weren't, that was never going to happen. But you just sort of feel a bit like, oh, they were hoping it would be okay.
39:14 Speaker 01 Yes. And I think the tricky thing is that it's all very well punishing yourself for your stupidity, but Jane paid a price too.
39:24 Kate Lister? She did.
39:24 Speaker 01 She did not want that.
39:26 Kate Lister? We can't let that off the hook, can we?
39:28 Speaker 01 It must have been very humiliating.
39:29 Kate Lister? Yeah, yeah.
39:30 Speaker 01 But I know what you mean. There's a sort of bit of you which thinks, oh, my God, what an idiot.
39:35 Kate Lister? Yeah, like he like, it wasn't like, he wasn't the one going, the angels say that we should have threesomes. There's just a certain amount of like, he got conned, basically.
39:44 Speaker 01 He did get conned. And it was because he loved his wife, but he loved his obsessions more.
39:50 Kate Lister? Oh, Rachel, you have been fascinating to talk to. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us. I'd never heard of John Dee before your book was coming out before. So I'm thrilled that you got to talk to us about him. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?
40:07 Speaker 01 I have a website and I'm on Instagram or go through my publisher's Duckworth. There's lots of ways of finding me and I'm always happy to talk.
40:16 Kate Lister? The full title is The Years of the Wizard, The Strange History and Home Life of Renaissance Magicians. Out now, go and get it. Thank you so much, Rachel. You've been marvelous.
40:27 Speaker 01 Lovely. Thank you.
40:31 Kate Lister? Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Rachel for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along, whatever it is you get your podcasts. Coming up, we've got an episode on the brothels in the Nazi concentration camps and another on how to fake your virginity, kind of. And if you would like us to explore a subject, or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected] .
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