EP.270 - REBECCA LUCY TAYLOR AKA SELF ESTEEM

Adam talks with Rebecca Lucy Taylor AKA musician Self Esteem about Bake Off stress, ambition guilt, feeling out of place as an indie pop star, feeling at home in Cabaret, the challenges of following up a hit album, booze, why men love CBT and much else. Conversation recorded face-to-face in London on 23 June, 2025 THE ADAM BUXTON BAND MAY 2026 TOUR https://linktr.ee/theadambuxtonband ADAM BUXTON & MIRANDA SAWYER https://www.charleston.org.uk/event/saying-too-much/ @ CHARLESTON FESTIVAL 14 May 2026, 9pm BUG BOWIE SPECIAL @ THE LIGHTROOM https://lightroom.uk/whats-on/bowie-nights-adam-buxton-presents-bug-bowie-special/ 17 June, 2-4 July, 2026 PEOPLE'S EMERGENCY BRIEFING FILM AND TALK WITH ADAM BUXTON & PATRICK BARKHAM https://norwichartscentre.co.uk/event/green-shoots-presents-peoples-emergency-briefing/ @ NORWICH ARTS CENTRE, 28 June, 2026 SAILY 🌎 Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code buxton at checkout. Download Saily app or go to to https://saily.com/ https://saily.com/alexandsiggebuxton ⛵ NORD VPN EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/buxton http://nordvpn.com/buxton Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support Podcast illustration by Helen Green https://helengreenillustration.com/ Listen to Adam's album 'Buckle Up' https://adambuxton.lnk.to/BuckleUp Order Adam's book 'I Love You Byeee' https://lnk.to/iloveyoubyeee_ Sign up for the newsletter on Adam's website https://www.adam-buxton.co.uk/ (scroll down on homepage) RELATED LINKS SELF ESTEEM - I DO THIS ALL THE TIME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtd_jlV61mA - 2021 (YOUTUBE) SELF ESTEEM - THE CURSE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xYQqHIiQC0 Self Esteem's song about booze from 'A Complicated Woman' - 2025 (YOUTUBE) SELF ESTEEM - FOCUS IS POWER https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgVqgud0L1c - 2025 (YOUTUBE) TEETH'N'SMILES https://teethnsmilesplay.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaignid=23073726191&utm_adgroupid=190164036390&utm_adid=776743314672&utm_term=teeth%20and%20smiles&utm_matchtype=b&utm_campaign&utm_adgroup&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23073726191&gbraid=0AAAABBP1z4C1DvMglvU8oqAUCQqheor5w&gclid=CjwKCAjwntHPBhAaEiwA_Xp6RtA0RrCgCDshuDEk6sWbBXdnPq3kskrW76tjaBmuxJgzA-R5rQs_ohoCdzQQAvD_BwE Starring Self Esteem @ Duke Of York's Theatre until 6 June, 2026 (TEETH'N'SMILES WEBSITE) ADAM BUXTON PODCAST LIVE WITH MAWAAN RIZWAAN https://www.roundhouse.org.uk/whats-on/adam-buxton-podcast-cf/ @ ROUNDHOUSE, 5 August, 2026 I'll be waffling with Mawaan Rizwaan, the former YouTube comedian turned BAFTA winning writer and star of TV sitcom Juice, at the Roundhouse Comedy Festival. I don't plan on doing any other live podcasts this year, so I hope you can make it to this one. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Adam Buxton?

  I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buckston, I'm a man. I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan.

• 0:31Adam Buxton?

  Hey, how you doing, podcats? It's Adam Buckston here. Now, you may be able to hear that I am not on my usual Norfolk farm track. Rosie is at home in Norfolk. I am in Haggerston Park in East London. It's a beautiful morning on the very first day of May 2026. I've just been shat on by a bird. So much shit. I was on my bike and I went under some trees and I did feel something plop a little bit. And I thought, oh, it's just a branch. It wasn't a branch. It was a direct hit.

• 1:13Adam Buxton?

  Got me on the top of my fleece, on the sleeve of my jacket. There's a big old blob on my shorts that I just discovered. Anyway, very effective work from the East London birds. They sound nice, but they will absolutely shit on you if you give them half a chance. Anyway, good to be here in beautiful London town. I was here yesterday filming a promo for my show Success Pod, my Audible show, which I now think is going to make its debut in early June rather than this month. Later today, I'm getting a train to Liverpool for the first night of my tour with the Adam Buckston Band.

• 1:58Adam Buxton?

  We will, in case you haven't got the message by now, be playing a selection of songs, mainly funny, from my album Buckle Up, plus a few covers that are close to my heart. And we'll be at Liverpool's Tongue Auditorium tonight, if you are listening to this podcast the day that it drops. Come and join us, we're on stage at 9pm, still some tickets left. We also have support from sonorous voiced songstress, I hope that's not an offensive description, of Anna B Savage, very talented musician, who I'm delighted is supporting us for our shows in Leeds, Exeter, Cardiff and Bath. There's a link in the description

• 2:40Adam Buxton?

  of today's episode for dates and tickets. I hope that you can make it along, come and say hi, I'll be hanging out afterwards, signing bits and pieces, I think. And there's news of a couple of other live shows that I'm doing at the end of today's podcast, but right now, let me tell you a bit about episode number 270, which features a delicious helping of waffle with musician, actor and writer Rebecca Lucy Taylor, aka Self Esteem. Esteem Facts. Rebecca was born in 1986 in the English market town of Rotherham, South Yorkshire, where her mother worked as a secretary and her father worked by day in the health and

• 3:25Adam Buxton?

  safety department of a steelworks, and by night, sometimes played in a local band. In 2006, aged 20, Rebecca formed the band Slow Club with Charles Watson. And over the next 10 years, they released a series of critically acclaimed albums featuring heartfelt, lo-fi indie retro soul pop powerfolk. Rebecca began using the alter ego Self Esteem around 2015 for a variety of artistic projects, including an exhibition of paintings and prints and short films. She's an artist in all sorts of different ways. In twenty seventeen, she released her first music under the self-esteem moniker, the Your Wife Your Wife.

• 4:10Adam Buxton?

  EP, which set out the stall for Rebecca's unique blend of classy art pop and self-lacerating lyrics that dealt unflinchingly with modern relationships, self-love, self-loathing. And yep. Self-esteem. The first full self-esteem album, Compliments Please, was released in twenty nineteen, and that was followed a couple of years later by Prioritised Pleasure, which featured the single I Do This All The Time, a mostly spoken word track, often compared to Baz Luhrmann's Everybody's Free To Wear Sunscreen, that was named by The Guardian as the best song of twenty twenty-one. There's a link to a few self-esteem tracks, including that one, in the description of today's episode.

• 4:55Adam Buxton?

  In twenty twenty-two, Prioritised Pleasure was nominated for the Mercury Prize, an annual award for the best album released by a UK or Irish artist. But it was last year, twenty twenty-five, after her third studio album, A Complicated Woman, was released, that she would win the Ivan Velos Visionary Award. An Ivan Velos. It's the Oscar of the music writing world. Back in twenty twenty-three, Rebecca debuted on the West End stage in the smash-hit production of Cabaret, where she performed the lead role of Sally Bowles, opposite Scissor Sisters' Jake Shears as the Kit Kat Club's emcee. Earlier this year, twenty twenty-six, she returned to the West End, starring in

• 5:39Adam Buxton?

  and writing additional music for an adaptation of David Hare's nineteen seventy-five play, Teeth and Smiles, at the Duke of York Theatre. And as I speak, that production is still running. I think it ends in early June. Rebecca plays Maggie Frisbee, once the roaring voice of sixty's counterculture, but is now broken, disillusioned, tearing through the night, fuelled by booze, fury, and a voice that refuses to die. My conversation with Rebecca was recorded face to face in London back in late June of last year, 2025, and there was a definite theme of ambition that ran throughout, why

• 6:22Adam Buxton?

  ambition sometimes feels like a dirty word. We talked about the challenges of being a parent of someone in a band, especially if you're a musician too, talked about her experience of doing cabaret, as well as her experiences writing prioritized pleasure in her parents' home during the lockdown, and how that compared to writing A Complicated Woman four years later. When we spoke, Rebecca had also just finished writing a book, also called A Complicated Woman, that was published in October 2025, and that brought together notes and lyrics, journal entries and observations on life as a woman A woman? in the 21st century. We also talked about why men love CBT, cognitive behavioural

• 7:07Adam Buxton?

  therapy, that's the highly structured, often short-term and goal-oriented form of psychotherapy that focuses on changing unhelpful thinking patterns, emotions and behaviours. Also, because our conversation was recorded a few days before 2025's Glastonbury Festival, we talked briefly about how musicians in the public eye at that time were often expected to supply an opinion about whether the Irish band Kneecap should be allowed to play Glastonbury, following allegations that one of the band had shouted support for Hamas and Hezbollah at a previous show. But we began by reminiscing about the episode of the Great British Bake Off for

• 7:48Adam Buxton?

  Stand Up To Cancer that we competed in together. And I also talked about my only other TV appearance in a while, on the UK quiz show House of Games, where winners of each day, if you're not familiar with the show, get a House of Games themed prize. Tim Key, I know, treasures his wheelie bag with the House of Games logo on it. Anyway, it was because of all the spoilers in that part of the conversation that I wasn't able to put this episode out sooner. Uh, which is a bit thick of me and I apologize. I didn't get any threatening messages from Richard Osman, the show's creator and host. Actor Michael Sheen has since taken over as host, but I knew that if I

• 8:31Adam Buxton?

  blabbed on my podcast about the outcome of the show before it had aired, it would uh not be cool. Yeah. Hello, bud. Beautiful big magpie has just come and sat on the fence by the little pond next to which I'm standing. Okay, I'll be back at the end to tell you about those live shows, but right now with Rebecca Lucy Taylor, AKA Self Esteem. Here we go.

• 9:37Adam Buxton?

  There was an article in the Mail Online after Bake Off went out. And the headline was something like, "Viewers appalled by the most shocking and disgusting creation ever on Bake Off." And they had a picture of the uh sort of limp banana that was supposed to be my alien, covered in bits of cherry juice. It did look, it did look very um sick.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  That was like being on the Maker's Prize though again for me. Uh huh. Because everyone was like, I was a bit like, I'm on, you know, I'm the underdog, because I was a replacement. So I haven't practised and I can't remember if, I don't know if you remember me going on about that, but

• 10:16Adam Buxton?

  No, I don't.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Everyone knew. And then I did like so well in that second challenge.

• 10:22Adam Buxton?

  You were great.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  So then all the producers and stuff were going like, my I might be you, you know, I might be you. I went back to my trailer and like text my mates group goats.

• 10:29Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  I was like, I might be in with a chance here, lads. And then hopes were dashed, you know, just like.

• 10:35Adam Buxton?

  Well, they were dashed by Mira Sial, who was in another league, really.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, it was totally fair enough. But if I ever go on again, make something you can make delicious flavour wise. Cause that's how she pipped us.

• 10:47Adam Buxton?

  It was too much on the day. It was, I sort of knew in the abstract that it would be like that.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:54Adam Buxton?

  That practicing at home is never going to be the same as being in a TV studio with cameras and stuff.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Why do you think you went wrong?

• 11:01Adam Buxton?

  Well, I went wrong with the dough. There was something weird happening with the dough. And then Paul Hollywood came and stuck his finger in it at one point and just gave it a look like, oh, you're fucked.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 11:15Adam Buxton?

  And then wandered off.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  It made fantastic television.

• 11:18Adam Buxton?

  I never actually watched it. Did you watch the show?

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:21Adam Buxton?

  Okay.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  It's really funny. I mean, it should get a BAFTA. Should get a nod. Just for the highs and lows.

• 11:27Adam Buxton?

  You were so kind to me because I was genuinely freaking out. Did you, did I look like I was in trouble?

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Cause I love you. And I was like, oh no, he's really gone quiet.

• 11:39Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, he did go quiet.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  But you did really well.

• 11:42Adam Buxton?

  I was gutted.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Were you?

• 11:44Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, cause I was so sure I was gonna nail it.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Did you, do you have therapy?

• 11:50Adam Buxton?

  Um, I haven't had any since then, but I'm due for some.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:54Adam Buxton?

  And I will, it'll be mainly Bake Off based.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  I did feel like I cared about it so much. I was like, why? It's, but it was fun to sort of, there's life in the old dog. Yeah, like I'm still, I care about something. I still wanna win. Still wanna try hard. I felt like 12 years old again. Do you know what I mean? Like, so it's like horrible, but, but nice.

• 12:12Adam Buxton?

  I feel like you're, we're both fairly ambitious people, don't you think? Like, but we're part of our mania, if I can characterize it like that. Is that we know that it's not necessarily an attractive quality or not an, for me, it's not a quality I like seeing in other people. Like someone who's super eager to win or, or super competitive or anything. I don't think I'm totally over the top, but it feels weird. And I went on House of Games the other day.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:38Adam Buxton?

  And I really tried hard on that.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  How did it go? Can you say?

• 12:42Adam Buxton?

  Well, I smashed it.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Good boy. Nice.

• 12:46Adam Buxton?

  And the thing is that.

• 12:49Adam Buxton?

  It was such a weird feeling because I've never ever done that before. I've never won at anything that I can think of. If it's a competitive environment, usually I try and avoid anything competitive. I've never been a sport guy or anything like that. But I won the first day. It was very close. It was quite, it wasn't like a total walkover. Everyone else was good on it. And then the second day I won because I suddenly felt like relaxed.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:17Adam Buxton?

  Because I won the first one and that's all I wanted to do. I just wanted to win one and bring home something for our friend Janice, who loves the show. And she was like, oh, my God, if you win, can you bring me back? I was like, sure, I'll do my best. So I won something for Janice and then I just chilled right out. And then everything was fine. It's like, oh, this is what you have to do. You have to just relax and everything works.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Wow. Did you win every day then?

• 13:42Adam Buxton?

  Every day.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Mate.

• 13:45Adam Buxton?

  And then I started feeling, I started feeling weird because then, you know, Richard Osman starts saying, uh, well, Adam's the one to beat. Can today be the day the tide turns? He's good at answer smash, but will he be caught up? And I started to realise that I was, it was such a weird position to be in. And I felt like a bit of a dick.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Did you share any prizes?

• 14:09Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, I shared.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:10Adam Buxton?

  Shared three prizes.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. It's fine. If you do that, it's fine.

• 14:13Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  I shared a prize with the legend from Gladiators.

• 14:17Adam Buxton?

  Oh, okay. What did Legend want?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Uh, a cake.

• 14:23Adam Buxton?

  Of course.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  It was great. Who else was on when you were on?

• 14:28Adam Buxton?

  I was on with Hamid Anima Sean, who's in a show called Black Ops.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 14:34Adam Buxton?

  Comedy show, funny guy. Lisa Snowden.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 14:38Adam Buxton?

  The presenter.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:39Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. And a comedian, an actor called Lorna Watson, who I have worked with before. She was good. She gave me some trouble.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:48Adam Buxton?

  Because she was more my age.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:50Adam Buxton?

  That's the thing is the older people just do better.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  They do. It's really annoying. It's really annoying.

• 14:55Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  It's it's flawed.

• 14:56Adam Buxton?

  And then, like, what do you do as an older person, you feel kind of like you should, especially if you've got kids. You know that you should, you don't wanna be competitive dad, just surging ahead. You wanna back off and give everyone else a chance.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:12Adam Buxton?

  But then I was like, I'm not.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Nah.

• 15:13Adam Buxton?

  I've gotta go for it.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  That's really funny.

• 15:16Adam Buxton?

  Especially after Bake Off.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  I know, well, exactly. Don't worry about it. You know, ambition isn't dirty.

• 15:21Adam Buxton?

  No, it's not dirty. I've been reading Eric Idle's memoirs, cause I'm hoping to speak to him on the podcast.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Wow, really?

• 15:26Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Gosh.

• 15:28Adam Buxton?

  And he moved out to Los Angeles at a certain point because he got so fed up with the sort of critical tone of the UK and everything being so down and I don't know what. And so he likes it out in LA with all, everyone being positive. And then he goes and does Spamalot in the sort of later stage of his career, when he's in his sixties.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:51Adam Buxton?

  And it's a huge hit. Everyone's winning Tony Awards left, right and centre. And he has the same thing. He feels like a little bit of an imposter or a bit like he doesn't deserve it or he's getting successful off the back of the other Python's work. Or there's so many ways that you can spin a success.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:08Adam Buxton?

  To turn it into something bad.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Just be really good and that's it.

• 16:12Adam Buxton?

  Are you like that though? Are you?

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, for years, it felt like when I was in a band and stuff, like, it wasn't cool to be ambitious. Which like infiltrated my quite badly. Like, I was really like stupid me for wanting that. And then.

• 16:29Adam Buxton?

  Where did you get that vibe from though?

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Indie music in that time. You had to look like you didn't care, but then people were making huge careers while still looking like they didn't care. Which, which I could never do. Like, I love working hard and trying hard and I didn't fit in, you know. But then I recently found out everyone did want to sort of get bigger. But they, you know, it was hard, it was hard. I like, self-esteem is definitely like, I literally saw like Drag Race and read like Madonna's book. And then I was like, I'm being rewarded for being brilliant isn't, isn't, isn't bad. And I felt like I can't, I can't, I like, I've shut myself up so much for years. I was like, I've got to go. And do it.

• 17:13Adam Buxton?

  Was that you always, though? Was that person always waiting to get out and you got accidentally sucked into a cool indie band?

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:21Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Massively. I tried to get into drama school, didn't get in. So I was interested in that and I was interested in, I love music. I love like indie music. I've got a big band head. I'd go to gigs and I was always, I had a band at school and stuff. So it really could have just gone down e- either way.

• 17:37Adam Buxton?

  What did you play in the band?

• 17:38Speaker 01

  I sang, played guitar, played the drums sometimes.

• 17:42Adam Buxton?

  And did you write your own songs or were you doing covers?

• 17:43Speaker 01

  In the first band?

• 17:44Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Oh, it was a dreadful mix of origi- originals and um Damien Rice covers.

• 17:51Adam Buxton?

  Okay.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Uh, Smith's covers.

• 17:53Adam Buxton?

  Nice.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  We did There Is A Light That Will Never Go Out and I oversang that. We did um.

• 17:59Adam Buxton?

  Take me out tonight. How, how would you do it?

• 18:04Speaker 01

  I can't. But imagine an eighteen year old girl with an asymmetrical fringe and a David Bowie t-shirt on.

• 18:09Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Flares.

• 18:10Adam Buxton?

  Sounds cool.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Really going for it. One of the showsuppers we had was, uh, what's the Beatles song?

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Come Together.

• 18:19Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Long, drawn out Come Together with me be like You're like really bluesy vocal. That would have been horrible. But we used to play at this venue called The Boardwalk in Sheffield and you made a door split. So that was my high school band. We would do these sets with two originals, which I was writing about the guy who played guitar. Well, so dramatic. But we used to get so many people down from school that we'd make, I, I remember making seventy quid once. I was like, brilliant. I've never made any more money in music since then. It was a lot better. A lot better odds actually before I got into it professionally. So I was still ambitious then, but then when I was in the band Slow Club and we, and we toured and

• 19:02Speaker 01

  we, you know, we were so young when we started.

• 19:04Adam Buxton?

  How old were you?

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Like sixteen, like.

• 19:06Adam Buxton?

  Really?

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So sixteen, seventeen, we were like just playing in Sheffield and then we got offered a tour of the Barflies. Can you remember Barflies?

• 19:13Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  I remember thinking like, here we go, this is it. So I didn't go, I didn't go to uni because we had this tour. And then, then that's, that's the rest is history.

• 19:23Adam Buxton?

  You didn't go to uni? How did that go down with your folks?

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Quite sweetly, right? There's, my dad was in a band when I met my mum. Mum and dad are really like quiet, um, people. They both love music. My dad's like really into bands, really into like prog.

• 19:37Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Um.

• 19:38Adam Buxton?

  Your dad's like Jennifer Beal in Flashdance. He was a steelworker by day and a musician by night.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  He was, he didn't work, he wasn't a steelworker.

• 19:48Adam Buxton?

  Was he not?

• 19:49Speaker 01

  But you know, it was like the times, I think, printed that and I really ran with it since. My mum's like, he worked in the health and safety department.

• 19:57Adam Buxton?

  I've now, now, now.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  My dad has got like a way cooler narrative.

• 19:59Adam Buxton?

  Maybe he worked in health and safety, but I bet he was sweaty and bare chested all day and probably had a hammer on his tool belt.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  I'll, it's a better story, but no, he was just in the office. But, um, but yeah, he'd come home. He's like an amazing prog keyboard player. Like John Lord, like his, his like idol.

• 20:16Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  But yeah, um, um, you know, we're a close family, but we never, there was never overblown like emotional outpourings ever. And I was like, I am. So it was quite difficult. But my dad pulled the car over, was picking me up from somewhere. And it was on the table I do, I go to uni, I do, I do music. And he said, you should do music to see how it goes, which I thought was like really amazing. Cause like a lot of parents wouldn't have supported that at all.

• 20:42Adam Buxton?

  But he must have known you were good. I mean, he'd seen you perform at that point.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's funny now, cause obviously so much has happened now and they, they really enjoy it now, but there must have been some hairy years. Cause it was a decade of not getting anywhere, really.

• 20:56Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  And being on tour and like really unregulated, unsafe world for like a young woman.

• 21:02Adam Buxton?

  Did they ever come with you?

• 21:03Speaker 01

  My dad used to drive us a bit at the start. He drove us to Glasgow once and back in the same night.

• 21:10Adam Buxton?

  Whoa.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Cause we couldn't stay, you know, what a legend.

• 21:13Adam Buxton?

  From Sheffield.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:14Adam Buxton?

  How long did that take?

• 21:16Speaker 01

  I can't remember how it was, four, four, five hours.

• 21:19Adam Buxton?

  Something like that, isn't it?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  My dad is just so sweet. And, and thank God it's paid off twenty years later.

• 21:26Adam Buxton?

  Did he ever give you critical feedback, like, um, advice about the music you were making and the songs you were writing?

• 21:33Speaker 01

  He did a bit at first and then I became aware that that's not okay. He still does this, he has a song I knew out, Deep Blue OK, he was like, well, I thought there was going to be some drums coming. I was like, great, thanks dad.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  And when it got to number five, he went, um, not bad. And I was like, ah, this is where my desperate need to please comes from then. I see. But he's never been like, he's not hard. I know he loves it, but he's just not over the top. And I'm so over the top. But yeah.

• 22:03Adam Buxton?

  Where do you get that from then?

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Honestly, I have no idea. My mum is like so calm and quiet. I had a grand, my grandad was like the, he was like a bit of a personality in the village. Where he owned the shoe shop. He was like the dame in Panto every year and stuff like that. So I think my best guess is.

• 22:19Adam Buxton?

  There you go. It's leaking down from there.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  He, he had some show business in him for sure. And that's where I got it.

• 22:26Adam Buxton?

  And your mum was a secretary?

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:29Adam Buxton?

  So where was she working?

• 22:30Speaker 01

  She worked at solicitors, then she worked at the police, doing like nine nine nine calls.

• 22:36Adam Buxton?

  Make up for Sting.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, I'm a nepo. My mum didn't make Sting's makeup. That's why I got into this. No, and then she, but my mum was home with us a lot when we were kids. And then she went back to work when we were a bit older, which again, I didn't realise was like amazing, you know, and kind of them.

• 22:59Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Such a sacrifice and whatnot. Cause me trying to think about having a baby, I'm like, I'm not stopping at home. I've got shit to do.

• 23:07Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, it's, it is weird. Like when I think about how much my parents sacrificed and how difficult their relationship was because of all the. Decisions they made about how they wanted us educated, especially and all the other things. You know, I moan about them sending me off to boarding school and things like that, but they really, really thought they were doing what was going to be best for me. And, you know, I did certainly get a lot of amazing

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:32Adam Buxton?

  things from those decisions they made. But, yeah, they sacrificed a lot in a way that I don't feel, I mean, I have a, I have a sort of cushier life in a way.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:43Adam Buxton?

  So things are easier for me than they were for them.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:46Adam Buxton?

  So I don't have to sacrifice as much as they did.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Do you have to board? Do you have to stay?

• 23:51Adam Buxton?

  Uh.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  To live there?

• 23:52Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Oh, boys.

• 23:54Adam Buxton?

  No, it was coed, actually, even though obviously you're in single-sex dorms.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 23:59Adam Buxton?

  We would sneak across to the girls' wing. In the middle of the night. It was so exciting. Night Boat to Cairo by Madness was in the charts. Do you know that one?

• 24:09Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 24:10Adam Buxton?

  It would play in my head as we were creeping across in the moonlight, like literally so anxious about getting busted because I don't know what, I thought we would get expelled or something.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, everything's terrifying, isn't it?

• 24:23Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah. It was brilliant.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 24:26Adam Buxton?

  Anyway.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  All downhill from there.

• 24:27Adam Buxton?

  All downhill from there. But the, yeah, the downside was that, um, I was emotionally crippled.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Well, that's socially more accepted.

• 24:39Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, I guess so.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  If you just keep it all quiet and inside.

• 24:42Adam Buxton?

  It's good training for becoming a Tory MP, apparently. That was one of the options available to me. Tory MP or podcaster.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Well, well, there's time yet for a swivel.

• 24:53Adam Buxton?

  But still, uh, on the subject of your parents, though. I mean, I'm interested especially because my children are musical, a couple of them.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Are they?

• 25:02Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. And I do give advice to my, one of my sons, and I know he. Doesn't necessarily appreciate it. I'm trying to hold myself back, but it has happened on a couple of occasions.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  It's tough.

• 25:16Adam Buxton?

  What's the best way to play it then as a parent? Just just be positive.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  I think the way I make music is so specific to me. Like if it was a goal that like, if I was trying to make the best prog music possible, I might be all ears.

• 25:29Adam Buxton?

  Has he recorded stuff?

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:31Adam Buxton?

  So does he ever say, uh, look, I've got this song I think would be perfect.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  My dream is to have him play on a record.

• 25:37Adam Buxton?

  Oh, really? Yeah.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  I'm gonna do on the next one. He once played, when I was in Slow Club, we did a little covers EP and I covered Desperado. And my dad came up and played it on the piano.

• 25:48Adam Buxton?

  The Eagles?

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:49Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  It's just like weird seeing my dad nervous.

• 25:51Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Piano, like killer, horrible. I can't bear it. Cause then you just see him as a little boy, you know?

• 25:57Adam Buxton?

  Did he behave himself?

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, he smashed it, but it's just a weird role reversal, isn't it? So.

• 26:03Adam Buxton?

  Very weird.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Sorry, I've not really answered your question, but um, it's such a personal thing and your parents are so in charge for so long that I think you just don't want their involvement in your work.

• 26:13Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Or I never did.

• 26:14Adam Buxton?

  It's easier to keep those worlds separate. I mean, it was even weird for me when we had, our dad was, my dad, not our dad, Joe Cornish has a separate dad. But my dad was in our TV show and we'd take him to festivals and stuff and on the one hand, we were encouraging him to be silly and play along and on the other hand, I was protective of him.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:36Adam Buxton?

  I didn't want him to embarrass himself.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  But no, I do, I like, it's, there's something that's always been cool about my dad. It just was the thing that united everyone. He had videos of tours, he would read books, he had so many CDs and records and he would read and cover to cover the thing. So it's just like, I've always cared about that. Cause I suppose as a kid, you just wanna do. What they might think is interesting.

• 27:02Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Sometimes this cool stuff been happening lately where like gone out of a navello other day. And I brought my mum and dad, because I knew I was winning it and because they had to come down twice to make to see me lose the mercury prize. Because the queen died on the first one.

• 27:18Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Do you remember this?

• 27:19Adam Buxton?

  Yes.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  The first mercury prize queen died, so we all had to go home. And then the second time I didn't win. So I really wanted to bring them to something where they knew I was gonna win. So they came down and then we were sat on like my publisher. He like used to play football with Ian Gillan from Deep Purple. So my dad's having a chat about that. And then you two were picking up like a special award and. Played and then Bruce Springsteen was there and I was like, my dad, he was never really excited about anything. You could just tell he was like, this is cool. And I was just like, that's weirdly wonderful to have achieved, you know.

• 27:49Adam Buxton?

  Wow.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  I always wanted my dad to think I was cool. And then now I'm like, he does.

• 27:54Adam Buxton?

  That is amazing.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  It's a long way around going, you know.

• 27:57Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  I took it a bit far here. Now I'm cursed with being a musician.

• 28:00Adam Buxton?

  You couldn't write it, could you? It's like, oh yeah, dad, come along to the Ivanovellos.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:05Adam Buxton?

  I'm getting an award.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  It was cool.

• 28:07Adam Buxton?

  Holy shit.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  I know.

• 28:09Adam Buxton?

  Congratulations.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Thank you. It was a funny week because I was like, I had different types of press every day for four days in a row. Like three different things a day. And then it was that. And then the next day I was on stage with Scissor Sisters singing. And because I'd just, my brain had just flatlined. So I'm trying to learn the words for take your mama out. And I'm like, dressed as a sexy baby sailor.

• 28:30Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, quite right.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Trying to learn words and they were not going in. I was like, never again am I doing this much in one week. But the novelos were the best bit of a very mad week, where as well, everyone asked me about kneecap every time I was interviewing.

• 28:42Adam Buxton?

  Oh my god.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  I'm too tired. I can't tell you what I think about anything.

• 28:47Adam Buxton?

  Why were they asking you? Just because every musician is supposed to have a opinion?

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Kept getting like ambushed.

• 28:54Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  You'd be like on air and then they go, and and you're like, wait a minute.

• 28:58Adam Buxton?

  About kneecap.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Horrible.

• 29:01Adam Buxton?

  It is. I think that's so crap. I really do, actually. It's like, when's Mr. Tumble gonna say something about kneecap? You know, I'm not suggesting that you're exactly like Mr. Tumble.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  I, I feel seen, thank you.

• 29:15Adam Buxton?

  I mean, you are a musician. There is a kind of a political dimension to some of the stuff you write. So it's not from total left field to ask you about it, but at the same time, it's such a crap gotcha about this hugely complicated conflict situation. And even saying that, that winds people up. They're like, it's not complicated. All you have to do is say this.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:44Adam Buxton?

  And then it'll all be sorted. It's people saying it's complicated that's part of the problem. It's like, oh my god.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I got the award.

• 29:54Adam Buxton?

  Has it sorted out the situation in the Middle East?

• 29:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:57Adam Buxton?

  Not yet.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  And that's my fault.

• 30:28Adam Buxton?

  This time last year, June twenty twenty four, we did an event at the Crosswires Festival. That was fun. But by that time, I'd already seen you performing in Cabaret.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I remember you coming.

• 30:40Adam Buxton?

  Yes. And that was one of the last days, I think, in your run.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Penultimate show.

• 30:46Adam Buxton?

  You started the run in September twenty twenty three and went through to March twenty four.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:52Adam Buxton?

  And it was so good. I've only been to a handful of musicals. Normally, I do try and avoid them.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Fair.

• 31:00Adam Buxton?

  As well as the theatre in general.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Really?

• 31:02Adam Buxton?

  I've had some good times at the theatre, but anyway, it was extraordinary. Are you going to do more?

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Yes, I'd like to. It's just hard because Cabaret is the best one.

• 31:10Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  That production of Cabaret is completely flawless. That's why I could just go into it so. Cuz cuz what I'm cuz I'd like to do more acting. I really enjoy it. It's a better place for me to be emotional than me. Right. And I find it and I think it's just a challenge.

• 31:24Adam Buxton?

  How do you mean?

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Cuz I'm just so emotional and I've like made a living out of how I feel for my whole life, really. And then when anyone's got a problem with that, it's killer, you know. And it's just too close. It's just exhausting. And then to be Sally. And I understood how she felt and I could like access it because it was also me, but it just had this separation that I just loved. So I want to do another play, yes, but it's hard cuz it's just the best one.

• 31:52Adam Buxton?

  Remind people what Cabaret is about if they haven't seen it.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  It's just like at the very start of World War Two, Nazi Germany is like bubbling under.

• 32:00Adam Buxton?

  And they're in Berlin.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  It's the last hurrah in Berlin when, you know, there's money and it's just sex and drugs and.

• 32:07Adam Buxton?

  Decadence.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Decadence and just and queer and like just this musical about the party being over, you know. And it's so haunting and close to the bone now. And Sally is like. She's like a party girl who wants to have no boundaries and no rules and just keep going and not live by any societal norms, but then also. I think she's like that to save face to kind of like if she didn't get a husband and have a baby and be a nice lady. She never wanted it anyway, which is the most me thing ever. So. And I loved it. And I loved being a, you know, I was a Sally Bowles who she's nineteen in the book, but I was thirty six during it, thirty seven. And she gets rid of her pregnancy, basically. She chooses the independent option because she can't trust.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  The man or whatever. And I just thought there's something. So I was so proud to sort of tell the story of that. Cuz it's really close to my heart, you know. And there's loads of dancing and sexy stuff and I got off with the Nazi in it.

• 33:06Adam Buxton?

  Did you?

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, still going out with him.

• 33:08Adam Buxton?

  Nice.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  But I thought, I wonder how many Sally Bowles has got off with the Nazi.

• 33:11Adam Buxton?

  With the hot Nazi.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  History of this musical. It's probably a high, high percentage.

• 33:18Adam Buxton?

  Well, I'm very happy for your Nazi romance. That's the bit we're gonna clip out.

• 33:26Adam Buxton?

  But I so relate to the idea that that would alleviate your anxiety. Because it's a kind of prescribed existence where so many of the complicated things that you worry about every day are set to one side and everything's organised, there's a timetable.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  And everything about it was not by my hand. The only bit I had to control was my performance. And everything about self-esteem has been, it's just me.

• 33:53Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Which is, I can't do it any other way. But like, I don't think I realised how exhausting and pressurised that's been until I wasn't doing it for a bit. For the first time ever.

• 34:03Adam Buxton?

  Prioritised Pleasure came out twenty twenty one.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 34:07Adam Buxton?

  And then, was there another album between that and Cabaret?

• 34:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:12Adam Buxton?

  No. So this is, the new one is the first one that you've done since Prioritised Pleasure. And I remember talking to you before Sheffield.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Was I making it then?

• 34:23Adam Buxton?

  And yes, you said you were having a terrible time.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 34:27Adam Buxton?

  Why?

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Well, with a bit of perspective now, I think there was no way to not have a terrible time making the first album after you've had a bit of success. Did you have it in your career where like, they love you on the way up, then you're here?

• 34:41Adam Buxton?

  Sure.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  You're here.

• 34:42Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. How are you gonna follow it up?

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also like, you're fair game. And the sort of brigade of people that are like, oh, actually, I don't think it's that good, actually, are ready to come, no matter what. So like, rationally, I knew that was coming, no matter what I made, even if I made, you know, Kid A, like, it was coming.

• 34:59Adam Buxton?

  People didn't like Kid A at the time.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  They were wrong, you see? So, yeah, so I was having a bad time. But then I also now with a bit of perspective, like, Prioritised Pleasure went so, like, my life changed on that. Um, I went from like, loads of time and focus on what I was doing and not really getting anywhere to suddenly like, I mean, it was wild. For three years, I didn't have a day off, like, it was constant. And then I did Cabaret, and then I went straight into Complicated Woman. And I think I was just burnt out in like, the purest sense. I hate like buzzy words and that, but it was really wild. I couldn't think.

• 35:32Adam Buxton?

  And I'm sure you were probably overthinking, like, what you were gonna do and how you were gonna do it. Were there sort of critics' voices in your head?

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like, to be honest, it got reviewed really nicely and I've had a perfectly all right time of it. There was like one real stinking review and I've not, I've not even read it, but even just knowing it's there is like,

• 35:51Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Rationally, again, doesn't matter. I know a hundred percent know it's coming. It just like, yeah, it's been really weird, but then when you, I'm, I'm trying to process it and think like, basically no one cared what I was doing my whole life. And everyone was saying it was really good. I remember like watching Smoke go up my asshole and being like, I know this can't last. It was good at first on Pride and Prejudice. It was really fun and I was getting asked to do things I'd always wanted to do. And that was all really fun. But then knowing that that's not sustainable sort of ruined it. And then it not being sustainable has been pretty painful. That's why I'm a bit like assessing what do I want and what do I think? Cause there's something with music where you do well and then your only option is you've got to go bigger. If you want to go bigger, just like scientifically, you have to dilute what

• 36:36Speaker 01

  you're doing, really. If I want to be a global artist in today's economy.

• 36:42Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  You've got to do a, a song that's gonna be pretty simple, you know.

• 36:48Adam Buxton?

  Is that your priority though? Cause I do remember watching the Slow Club doc, which is called All Our Brilliant Friends. And you're talking about some of the things that we were talking about earlier about, about sort of feeling ambitious, but feeling a little bit like everyone around you thought it was too jazz handsy to be worried about wanting to get everything right. And you said though, you can't help but want more. I want to be a big dog. I mean, I don't know if you literally were talking about wanting to be like a big sweet dog.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  I'd be a lovely dog if

• 37:22Adam Buxton?

  I'm sure you would.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  a spell happened. Big gold, slobbering golden retriever. Sorry, Carrie.

• 37:27Adam Buxton?

  But no, you were talking about, you were talking about wanting to sort of do as well as you can within your field, right?

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. I watched, like, we watched every artist go just zoom past us. Like we, Mumford and Sons supported us. And I thought, those kids have got it. And then we watched them just go flying past. And, you know, I was like living in the wor- horrible flat shares in London, you know, with no money. Just like, please, can't I just have a poster on the tube and like, do this properly, like?

• 37:58Speaker 01

  And then, you know, and then it all happened and it was amazing. I was in the pandemic, living in my mum and dad's house. I was like looking into retraining as a lumber teacher.

• 38:05Adam Buxton?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  But when I made prioritised pleasure, there was a real like weird clarity where I was like. You know, Re- Rubin style, like I am now a conduit from the universe and I'm, I'm gonna be that. Um, the art came down through me and it, you know, it really was this like peaceful place to me and, and was, you know, such. Changed my life, you know.

• 38:26Adam Buxton?

  What was the first moment that that happened and what music were you making when you felt like that?

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Uh, there's a song called I Do This All The Time. That is what changed everything really. Stevie Mac played it twice in one show and I was like, hang on a minute, this one, something's happening here. I was like, finally, like then they did that. The phone just never stopped ringing after that, like it was amazing.

• 38:46Adam Buxton?

  Where did that song come from?

• 38:48Speaker 01

  I just, I'd always wanted to do a, you know, sunscreen Baz Luhrmann. Like, that's like one of my favourite things ever and. Sometimes I've like got an idea for a song and I like give myself a brief. Sometimes they just happen, but I'd always had this brief in my head of like, what would a sort of woman's sunscreen be today? Yeah, I write these phone notes, basically. I mean, everyone does. It's not, I'm not like a master of this craft, but. It was a big part of when I started self-esteem, I would just post sort of two or three line poems from my iPhone. Collated them, did it one take in Sheffield, like. And I just knew, and the rest of the album, I just knew what to do at all times. And Complicated Woman was like.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  I'd knew-ish what to do, but I was second guessing every single bit of it. I was letting other people's opinions in, which is something I've never done. As self-esteem. I'm proud of it. Like, I think it's like really dense and mad and it's done well and people, like, I'm talking like it's been a mad failure, but it wasn't as pleasant. And now I see like going into making the next one, it's like, how do you force an environment where my brain? Feels like it did when there wasn't so much pressure.

• 39:57Adam Buxton?

  I mean, the way that a lot of people do it is they switch tack completely and they identify the things that everyone latched on to and they self consciously turn their backs on them.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:08Adam Buxton?

  So for you, that would be probably that incredibly self lacerating, very honest lyrical style that you have. Did you identify the bits that make you you or the bits that people latched on to on prioritized pleasure? And did you think, where did these go now?

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 40:26Adam Buxton?

  Do I need to twist them around or do I need to do anything with them? Or was that part of your self consciousness?

• 40:33Speaker 01

  No, I knew I've got this dream of making like a very stripped down piano record.

• 40:38Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Right. And I was so tempted to do that instead. And that felt like cheating to one eighty at that point. I felt self esteem had always been a trilogy in my head. And I always wanted to make whatever prioritized pleasure had, but it's like upper level. So we had ten singers on prioritized pleasure. I got like thirty on this, you know, and I wanted to make a bigger, bolder, wider screen version of prioritized pleasure, which is what I think I did. But I knew that that was a challenge and and to one eighty would have been easier. And arguably might have gone better, but too late now.

• 41:11Adam Buxton?

  But the risk, obviously, other than any kind of critical barbs that might come at you because they'd go, oh, look, this is what she does and she's doing more.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 41:20Adam Buxton?

  The risk for you personally is that you're putting so much of yourself out there. And what you were saying before is that you, every bit of commentary or criticism, you feel it personally.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've always, it's all, you know, my therapist and people around me, there's a lot of like, self esteem is this thing and Rebecca is tail is the other. And I'm like, it isn't that. It's the same. And I've never, I never understand not completely putting yourself into what you make. This is the first time I felt any kind of negativity towards doing that. It's the first time it's like bit me on the ass. And I've been surrounded by people going like, this is gonna bite her on the ass eventually. And I've been like, no, why wouldn't I say how I feel in my music? Well, it's boring not to. And now I see the price actually, and they're like, and the risk. I won't stop doing it because I can't. I've written a book.

• 42:08Adam Buxton?

  Have you?

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Same as I've started running, but I wouldn't say it's running, shuffling. And my book is so hardcore, that book, like I'll get, I'm gonna get so many emails from people being like mad with me.

• 42:19Adam Buxton?

  Why? Because you've mentioned people personally?

• 42:21Speaker 01

  No, I never mentioned anyone directly, but like, I just think like people have, people don't like women saying anything and it's quite like exposing and. But again, I can't not do it. So I think my point is, yes, I've learnt the price you pay for it, but can't not do it. And then the people I love, like the artists I love, like Marina Abramovic, Madonna, like they don't give it a second thought. I'm sure they did at the time, but.

• 42:46Adam Buxton?

  But I don't think of Madonna as being someone who put herself, I mean, she did in lots of ways, put herself on the line. But lyrically, she wasn't in the same place as you, as being like so specific about your neuroses and your. No, but you know what I mean? Like things that are really pretty deep down in the core of you and what you worry about and what makes you tick and things you don't like about yourself. Things that most people try pretty hard to cover up.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  I feel like it soothes me of it though.

• 43:16Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  It is weird, isn't it? Like I'm only just thinking about it now. I'm a bit worried, like one day I'll be like, ooh, you take all that out, but um.

• 43:27Adam Buxton?

  I'm not suggesting you should feel bad about it. I I've thought the same about, you know, I talk about this stuff a lot myself and I have times when I think I overshare. And.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  I can't not though.

• 43:37Adam Buxton?

  I worry, but um I do, I I feel the same way as you. It's like, I do believe there's a value in it.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:44Adam Buxton?

  And I think you can go too far with it, but it's an interesting place to be and.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Teens, twenties was like desperately trying to clip myself down to conform and assimilate what everyone else was being like. And I don't even think I was that wild, but I was unlucky that I was just in environments of, you know, all the lads in the band had long-term girlfriends and homes. And I lived in and out of flat shares and had twenty million different relationships and.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  I couldn't be normal, right? I've not felt bad about not being normal now for years. So all of it is part of uh healing how horrible it was to try and conform. I think I'm sort of like, I am singing to me at twenty two.

• 44:29Adam Buxton?

  Mm hmm. But also even those people who you think of as having conformed, they probably don't feel like they fit either. Everyone feels that to a degree. I suppose that's why so many people have responded to it, you know, because it is.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:42Adam Buxton?

  Fairly universal. I don't know that many people who at core are happy with the way they are.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  But everyone has certainly made me think they are.

• 44:49Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  I have just like self flagellated.

• 44:53Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Is that the word?

• 44:54Adam Buxton?

  Sure.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  And it creeps back in sometimes and then I am cleansed by going now, I'm just gonna tell the truth of what it is. And then we know every time someone else goes, thanks for saying that, I feel like that.

• 45:02Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  I'm like, I feel less alone. It's quite selfish. I'm not doing it for other people. I'm doing it for me to like that teenage fucking girl who went to see bands and you know, every woman I ever met was like rail thin singing the harmonies there to add a sort of romance to a thing. And I wished I couldn't be her and I desperately wanted to be. So every time I sing about, you know, personal things loudly, I feel like I'm avenging her.

• 45:36Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. There's a line on the opener. Which line am I gonna say? I do and I don't care. Which line?

• 45:44Speaker 01

  The one about smoking?

• 45:46Adam Buxton?

  No. Uh. Not smoking line. If I'm so empowered.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah.

• 45:51Adam Buxton?

  Why am I such a coward?

• 45:52Speaker 01

  The chorus.

• 45:52Adam Buxton?

  The chorus. Well, it's a sort of refrain, reprise.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Sorry, of course you'd talk about that. Yes. Paradise Pleasure did have a sort of empowered sense of self that immediately went out the window as soon as I was like more visible. Like I'm not famous, right? But I became visible and people could have an opinion on me for the first time in my life. It's not normal, like not natural thing to happen to anybody ever.

• 46:20Adam Buxton?

  Hmm.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  And also in a way, because I I wasn't going like stratospherically, you know, I wasn't like surrounded in. It wasn't like loads of money suddenly or like, you know, it was this weird middle ground. And I started to get scared all the time, like, and also like twenty one, twenty two, everyone wanted to say, well, actually, you know, to everything you say, I think there's like a tiny bit, I mean, it's still rough out there, but the discourse like, you know, that like rabid need to pull people up seems to not be as.

• 46:52Adam Buxton?

  In in what kind of situations?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Just like they.

• 46:55Adam Buxton?

  Are you talking about online or?

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like nothing really that bad happened, but it was just, I was constantly scared, you're gonna put your foot in it and you're.

• 47:01Adam Buxton?

  Right, okay.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Or like, you know, tiny things like if I talk about my period, then I got, you know, people, and I'm obviously like very involved in trans rights, but then, you know, people would DM me saying that's not trans inclusive.

• 47:14Adam Buxton?

  Uh huh.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Things like that where I'm like, fuck.

• 47:17Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  And it's that sort of liberal lefties picking each at each other. And I was quite vocal about things I believed in and for the first time there was people hit there to pick holes in it and you're like.

• 47:30Adam Buxton?

  I mean, who is pure in that world or in any sphere of political discourse, right or left? I mean, everyone, everyone's just waiting to get one over on everybody else at some point.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  That's why we're losing.

• 47:46Adam Buxton?

  I feel like that, I must say.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Um, obviously I get like insally men telling me I'm fat and ugly, right? And that's fine. I'm like, that I just, okay. Sure. Like I expect that, but when it was like, you know.

• 47:58Adam Buxton?

  When it's your own tribe, it hurts, yeah.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  I was like, ah, fucking, you just start to shrink. So that lyric's about that really. But I'm, I actually, I'm not just saying that for a good podcasting. But like the last couple of weeks, I've, there's a turnaround in my head and I'm crawling back now.

• 48:16Adam Buxton?

  Hmm.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  I think it's just all been a shock and I can see the light a bit again now.

• 48:20Adam Buxton?

  Good.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 48:56Adam Buxton?

  You've got a good booze song in your record.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 48:59Adam Buxton?

  Are you never gonna booze again? You're never gonna booze again.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  No, no, no. Free booze is always.

• 49:08Adam Buxton?

  Lovely.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  I can't quite disconnect from like, but it's free. Um, no, I, I do big chunks of time not doing.

• 49:16Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  I'm really, I'm really proud of that song. Cause I'm like, don't think there's many people that sing, oh, oh, oh, anyway, you know, you either get sober and that's you now, or it's way fuck it. Here's a weekend. Like, no.

• 49:28Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. So what are you saying in your song? Cause I, I really loved that song. I thought that was a banger and very interesting lyrically as well. Yeah. I hadn't heard that perspective.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm just trying to say like, what's the middle ground? Because it's so binary.

• 49:43Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  And my therapist is always like, it's two and go home. And then you can, you know, I mean, and, and I'm like, yeah, but it's just not that simple. And no one's ever saying about like how grotty that is. And how socially sort of rammed down your neck it is. And so I don't know. I, it's an ongoing process.

• 49:58Adam Buxton?

  Part of the problem with booze is knowing when you do have a problem and knowing when the point comes when you just have to say, actually, this isn't working and I've just got to stop altogether. But.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Do you use sober?

• 50:10Adam Buxton?

  No, no.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Should I get a bag in?

• 50:14Adam Buxton?

  I'm drunk now.

• 50:18Adam Buxton?

  I'm hammered.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  I'm hammered. Well, that's the thing. Like I, I've really realised there is the drinking that I do to be able to be the type of person that people are expecting. And there's a like, nice couple here and there with friends that's like perfectly reasonable. And like God made these things that are nice. And I want to be able to have them. And the only time it gets problematic for me is when it's to perform and be. What everyone else wants, but that's just like social anxiety. Like I'm just a nervous wreck at barbecues, but I can sing on stage and that's never made much sense, you know?

• 50:53Adam Buxton?

  Why you a nervous wreck at barbecue?

• 50:55Speaker 01

  I just can't bear it.

• 50:55Adam Buxton?

  I know what you mean, but how like talk me through.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  I just can't think what to say. And then if no one says anything, I'll fill it. And somehow I'm finding myself talking about something about myself that's way too in depth. And I'm like, fucking hell, I just panic. I hate it.

• 51:13Adam Buxton?

  How do people do it?

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Some people just do.

• 51:16Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. My wife is good. Although she, I mean, the thing is that when I see her at work with like parents from school and things like that. I just think, well, I could never do that. But it's, I can see that it's hard work.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:31Adam Buxton?

  She just really makes the effort.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:33Adam Buxton?

  That's the thing.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  My boyfriend like rings people. I'm like, what are you doing?

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Freak.

• 51:43Adam Buxton?

  Do you, if someone calls you and it's an unscheduled call, are you gonna take it?

• 51:47Speaker 01

  I'm like, well, someone's dead. And I wait for it to stop ringing and then a text saying, is someone dead? That's as much, that's what you'll get. I'm awful with it. I don't know. Like, I'm not, there's, there's definitely work to do and like, what's wrong with me in that department?

• 52:01Adam Buxton?

  Are you in therapy at the moment?

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:03Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Um, I, yeah, she's, she must be sick of me.

• 52:08Adam Buxton?

  I'm sure she's not.

• 52:10Adam Buxton?

  I'm sure she likes you. Um.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm her favorite, aren't I?

• 52:13Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  She looks forward to me, doesn't she?

• 52:14Adam Buxton?

  Sure.

• 52:17Adam Buxton?

  But the other day I was talking to a friend, um, a woman friend. And we were talking about therapy and she said, are you gonna get any more? And I was like, yeah, maybe. But I quite like CBT. I've never had CBT. And she said, oh, men always want CBT.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Same. My boyfriend, CBT, blah, blah, blah.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  It's because it's like practical, I guess, so.

• 52:45Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  It's not emotional, yeah. He fucking loves all that. Does my nut in. In my song, it goes, I recommend listening, and he goes, I recommend CBT.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Does my head in.

• 52:58Adam Buxton?

  Is this the Nazi?

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yes, it is. It's like you're writing stuff down and then you give yourself a treat if you've, yeah. I smell what you're stepping in with it, but you've got to talk about like.

• 53:11Adam Buxton?

  Can't you do both?

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, ideally, yeah. But that is funny. Men do love CBT. That's a lyric on my next record. Thank you to your friend.

• 53:22Adam Buxton?

  Because I just, I just want, as I said to my friend, it makes me, you know, I talk about, I do my robot voice when I talk about my, my wife. And I do feel roboty sometimes. But only because, you know, you just, I don't know that it's a peculiarly male urge, though. You just want the world to make sense.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:42Adam Buxton?

  You just want some answers.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Do you kind of wish that the world, just not a lot was going off?

• 53:49Speaker 01

  I think a lot of men just wish things weren't happening.

• 53:51Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. Well, how do you mean, like socially or globally?

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Just not, don't, just simple.

• 53:58Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't, I don't like flapping.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  You don't want a cat amongst the pigeons, you know?

• 54:04Adam Buxton?

  Well, that's a certain kind of man. I mean, evidently, I don't know if you've read the papers recently, but there's quite a lot of men who aren't like that and are happy to put the cat amongst the pigeons.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  I suppose that's the wrong.

• 54:14Adam Buxton?

  And then go and bomb the cat and the pigeons.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, not that.

• 54:18Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, sure. I know you're talking more socially.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  I've just known a lot of men that just would, are just poodling about. And it's looked lovely. My boyfriend, I call him Aunty, because he's just like, likes folding, dusting, works out every day, eats the same thing, head hits the pillow. Good night, nothing going on.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  It's amazing.

• 54:44Adam Buxton?

  Meanwhile, you've just written a song about your periods and the voices in your head. Some men are like that, though, but you're right. It is a different thing. I suppose there's all sorts of reasons, societal reasons, why there's not too many male artists like that.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:06Adam Buxton?

  Like, who would be? Who are the sort of male equivalents of you in the music world? Who talk about their feelings and, well, maybe, although I suppose it makes a difference that he's gay, but John Grant.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's, yeah.

• 55:25Adam Buxton?

  But what straight men do that kind of thing?

• 55:29Speaker 01

  There aren't really any. I don't, I can't really think. I mean, I think they're starting to, though, because it's fashionable.

• 55:36Adam Buxton?

  Sure.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  And I'm available to write lyrics for men if they need them.

• 55:39Adam Buxton?

  Well, my, uh, my debut album is coming out this September.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 55:43Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. It might even be out by the time this appears. And that's a very, very emotional record.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Really?

• 55:50Adam Buxton?

  No.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Oh. Is it?

• 55:53Adam Buxton?

  It's silly.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Is it? All right, okay.

• 55:55Adam Buxton?

  It's silly. No, but it's got real feelings in it.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:57Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  I can't wait. You are very good.

• 55:59Adam Buxton?

  But they're buried. That's the thing is that I don't think I would ever be able to do what you do. It would always have to be buried, quite deep.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  Buried in what? Like metaphor or?

• 56:11Adam Buxton?

  They're just sort of, it's a lair in amongst jokes or sort of irony or, you know, shields of one kind or another. But I don't mean that just because it's an exercise in total cowardice. It's like, because that's what I like to do. I like silly jokes and I like, and I like parodies and I like things like that. So it's.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  That is valid.

• 56:31Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  All music is valid, apart from some of it.

• 56:43Adam Buxton?

  Wait. Continue.

• 56:55Adam Buxton?

  Hey, welcome back. That was Self Esteem, Rebecca Lucy Taylor, and I'm very grateful to her for making the time to come and waffle with me. And I apologize Rebecca once again for making it difficult to put the episode out any earlier. I'm stupid. And I'm learning as I go along as a human. But anyway, it was really nice talking to Rebecca and I've put a few self-esteem related links in the description of today's podcast. So how are you anyway, podcast? I hope you're well. Feels like the beginning of summer right now in this park in East London where I'm standing.

• 57:39Adam Buxton?

  So I wanted to tell you about a couple of live events that I have coming up, one of which is a conversation with Miranda Sawyer at the Charleston Festival in East Sussex. And that is happening in May. Oh, that's quite soon, isn't it? I just realised that's like really soon. It's in a couple of weeks, May the 14th. And that takes place at 9pm. God, I'm all over the place at the moment. And yeah, I'm talking to writer and presenter Miranda Sawyer about the 1990s. We're both 90s people. TV, homemade TV, podcasting, that kind of thing.

• 58:21Adam Buxton?

  And it's going to be quite similar to an event I did last year with Miranda at the Royal Festival Hall, which featured chat and music and video nuggets from the Adam and Joe Show days amongst other things. And we had a really good night that night. I thought it was a good show and people seemed to enjoy it. I also loved talking to Miranda, so this seemed like a good opportunity when I was invited to the Charleston Festival to give that another outing. I mean, it won't be exactly the same, but just in case you came to the other thing, don't be surprised if it's similar. Also, it is the 30th anniversary of the Adam and Joe Show this year, so it seems like another good excuse to do some retro waffling.

• 59:06Adam Buxton?

  After this year, I'm never gonna do retro waffling ever again, okay? That's my pledge to you and to myself.

• 59:15Adam Buxton?

  A few weeks after that, on the twenty eighth of June this year, twenty twenty six, I will be hosting a screening of The People's Emergency Briefing, an eye-opening film, bringing together nine leading UK scientists and experts, presenting the latest evidence on what's happening with the climate and nature, what it means for everyday life in the UK now and in the future, and what can be done about it. The film is only an hour or so, and it features contributions, not just from the experts, but from a range of UK residents from all walks of life, as well as personalities, including Jennifer Saunders and Stuart Lee. I think I'm in there as well, and they interviewed me. I'm not sure if I made it to the final cut.

• 1:00:01Adam Buxton?

  As just, you know, someone sitting there with Chris Packham, who hosts the film, and we watched the talks, which I actually saw being given live when the initial event happened in Westminster towards the end of last year. It was really a fascinating day and not totally depressing. A lot of the news is alarming, but, you know, the whole effort is to try and do something constructive and to try and encourage the government to be more constructive as well. Anyway, after the screening of the film, which is gonna take place at the Norwich Arts Centre, did I say that? This is happening at the Norwich Arts Centre on the twenty eighth of June.

• 1:00:41Adam Buxton?

  And after the screening, myself and acclaimed nature writer Patrick Barkham, he also writes for The Guardian, I think, will discuss some of the information in the film with each other and also with the audience. I haven't done anything like this before on stage, but it's a subject I'm interested in and I care about, as I know many of you do. So I hope some of you can make it along. Links in the description to those events. Okay, that's it for this week. I've got to go and get this edited and uh and then head to the station to go to Liverpool where maybe I will see some of you tonight. I hope so. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his invaluable production support. Thanks also to a couple of

• 1:01:24Adam Buxton?

  new names to the podcast who I think are going to be helping me over the next few months. Claire Broughton and Diggery Wait. Never come across a diggery before outside of the Harry Potter universe. Anyway, they are folks that work at Hat Trick Productions who are going to be helping me with the podcast, possibly helping me be a little bit more ambitious, maybe doing some more extra bits and pieces, maybe figuring out some ways to be more engaged with the podcasts. Anyway, we'll keep you abreast. But thanks to them for their help with this episode. Thanks to everyone at Acast who liaise with my sponsors and keep the show on the road.

• 1:02:04Adam Buxton?

  Thanks to Helen Green. She does the beautiful artwork for this podcast. But thanks most of all to you guys for coming back, for listening right to the end. I'm not going to shout loud because I'm in a public park and I'm shy, but I'm certainly up for a creepy hug if you are. Come over here. Watch out for the bird shit. Oh, dear. You got a bit. Got a bit on your chest. There you go. You got it. Sorry about that. It's organic Cockney bird shit. It's the best kind.

• 1:02:37Adam Buxton?

  And until next time, we share the same sonic space. Please go carefully and for what it's worth, I love you. Bye.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  Nice like a fan when me bums up Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Please like and subscribe Gimme like a smile and a thumbs up Nice like a fan when me bums up Gimme like a smile and a thumbs up Nice like a fan when me bums up Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Like and subscribe Gimme like a smile and a thumbs up