Kate Courtney Is Sending It: The Champion Mountain Biker On Redefining Elite Performance, Finding Joy In The Struggle & Seeing Sport As An Authentic Expression

Kate Courtney is a world champion mountain biker, Olympian, and the palmarès-rich face of American cycling. This conversation examines Kate's Olympic torch moment with Tom Cruise, her athletic philosophy, and her groundbreaking She Sends Racing initiative. We delve into mountain biking's Marin County roots, the tension between data and intuition, balancing Stanford studies with World Cup competition, and redefining success beyond traditional metrics. Weaving personal stories into meaningful insights, she transforms cycling philosophy into a guide for navigating life's challenges. Kate redefines possibility. This conversation distills years of elite competition into universally accessible insights. Enjoy! ⁠Show notes + MORE⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Newsletter Sign-Up⁠ Today’s Sponsors: Squarespace: Use the code RichRoll to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain 👉Squarespace.com/RichRoll Bon Charge: Get 15% OFF all my favorite wellness products w/ code RICHROLL 👉 boncharge.com Bragg: Get 20% OFF your first order with code RICHROLL👉 Bragg.com Airbnb: Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at 👉 airbnb.com/host AG1: Get a FREE bottle of Vitamin D3+K2 AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs 👉drinkAG1.com/richroll Modern Elder: Join Chip Conley and me in LA on June 5th to design your next chapter. Early bird pricing is available until May 20th. Go to www.meawisdom.com/richroll to learn more. On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉on.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:06Speaker 01

  My grandpa, growing up, every time I did anything in my life, he would tell me, "Give him help." It's about being willing to meet yourself in every moment and give everything you've got in what you do. And I think, for me now, the question I ask is like, what can I give? And how far am I willing to go to exhaust that potential and to give everything I have while I still have the opportunity to give it?

• 1:38Rich Roll?

  Are you fully committed? Are you willing to endure the risks? Are you willing to welcome the hardship and embrace all the fear and uncertainty required to play the game of life full out? What this means exactly might be much different than your knee-jerk assumptions. It requires discipline, of course, hard work, an embrace of uncertainty, a high tolerance for discomfort, and the resilience to weather the many ups and downs life has a preference for serving up. But it also demands patience, a strong sense of values that define your why, and a sense of holistic life balance to always nurture and prioritize the things that matter most in the pursuit of a meaningful life.

• 2:23Rich Roll?

  This is what Kate Courtney calls sending it. A concept she is here today to elaborate upon, along with many other nuggets of actionable wisdom hard-earned over her decades spent at the highest tier of world-class athletic performance.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Kate Courtney is gonna do it here in Lethy, Switzerland. It's been an unbelievable performance. Gold rush for the USA. Kate Courtney is your 2018 UCL Cross Country World Champion.

• 2:55Rich Roll?

  Not only is Kate world champion and Olympian, she is the face of American mountain biking. But as storied as her career has been, it's also not without its heartbreaking low moments.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  A Swiss sweep. It's gold, silver, and bronze for Switzerland.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  It feels really good to associate your identity with your sport when you're winning. But the gift of coming up short is having clarity in that separation.

• 3:22Rich Roll?

  Moments that forced her to question her path and reexamine her why, culminating in this recent career-defining move in which personal performance now stands on equal footing with her personal mission to inspire the next generation of female riders. You mentioned legacy earlier. What is the higher purpose distilled down to a single thought?

• 3:47Speaker 01

  It's a really good question.

• 3:49Rich Roll?

  This is a very exciting and pivotal moment in not just your athletic career, but your life. And so I feel very privileged to be able to help you kind of unpack this special time today.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 4:09Rich Roll?

  It's cool. But we have to start with Tom Cruise.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  A place to start.

• 4:16Rich Roll?

  For anybody who paid even, you know, kind of the slightest amount of attention to the Paris Olympics, you probably saw a video of Tom Cruise, you know, kind of descending into the closing ceremonies of the Paris Olympics to gather the torch and then smash cut him on an airplane and skydiving down to the Hollywood sign in Los Angeles where he then received the torch from you who was riding up on your mountain bike to hand it off. Or no, he handed it to you, right? And then you rode off and then into the USC stadium where the 1984 Olympics

• 5:01Rich Roll?

  ceremony took place to then hand it off to Michael Johnson, right?

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:07Rich Roll?

  And this video, I mean, it must have been seen hundreds of millions of times, if not a billion times. And a lot of people going, who is that person on the mountain bike?

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:19Rich Roll?

  Which was a pretty cool experience. So I need to know everything about this.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Everything about it. It was an unbelievable life experience. I'll just start. I got the call and they said, you know, we'd love to have you be a part of handing off the flag to LA. It's a home Olympics. It's in California where I grew up. It's also an Olympics that will be very focused on female athletes, of which I am one. And it's also in the state where mountain biking was founded. So mountain biking originated in Marin in the 60s and 70s. So I think those things combined made me a good fit for being a part of it. And of course, that was a huge honor to be asked. But I had very little details. They just said, okay, will you be willing to come with an A-list celebrity? And I was like, okay,

• 6:05Speaker 01

  an A-list celebrity, you know, I don't know if they'll even know who they are. And then they called me two days before the shoot under an NDA and said, oh, by the way, the A-list celebrity is Tom Cruise. And I was like, oh, I've heard of him. And you will need to get my husband an NDA immediately as well because I'm going to have to tell someone.

• 6:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  But yeah, it was this really... Kind of surreal experience. And to be honest, I'll say, in the interest of transparency, like, when I first got the call, I felt this kind of imposter syndrome, like, oh, do I really, what if I don't make the team? Like, what if I don't make the team in Paris? Like, do I want to be the face of this? And I got really good advice that, in life, you have to take those opportunities, and that those opportunities are a result of who you are, and where you are, and all of these factors, some in your control and some out of it. And at the end of the day, it was just a really cool thing to get to do. And so I really focused on just enjoying it,

• 7:05Speaker 01

  and being present for it. And I actually took away a few really important lessons from it as

• 7:11Rich Roll?

  well. Which are?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Which are. Um, meeting Tom Cruise is a really unique experience. And being on the set, it's, I'll just say, it was hard to go home and not tell all my friends about this, but um, he flew in in like, a black chopper, and they look up, oh, Tom's here. I'm like, oh, my God, this is, this is crazy. I'm in a movie. And he had come from shooting in Europe, flew overnight, jumped out of a plane in the middle of the night, comes there at, you know, 10:00 in the morning to film this little scene with me. And as, as an athlete, like, we travel a bit, we, we know kind of what it feels like to do that. That's really hard.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Like, I know how flashy and fun and cool that might look. That's a really hard, physical day to have, right? That's a lot of work. And he showed up on set with joy, like, pure, authentic joy for what he was doing. And I think I mentioned something about it, and I said, well, you know, this is fun. And he looked at me and said, it's all fun, isn't it? And to me, that was really impactful to see someone who Has already achieved the highest level in their craft, right? Has already done enough. You could fade stage left, live out a great life, but is absolutely hustling because he loves what he does.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  And you can see it in everything that he did on set that day, giving extra time to like every person who is working on set, knowing that like, okay, he has this light and he can shine it on people. Taking time, you know, asked me if I wanted a photo. And I'm like, okay, yeah, I obviously I do. But I kind of wanted to give you some space. And instead of just like doing it as if it was a big to do, he did it with joy and he brought the photographer over and made, actually, we need to change directions. The light's better. And to me, that was just, it was a masterclass in what it looks like to give everything in what you do.

• 9:13Rich Roll?

  That tracks with everything I've ever heard from anyone I know who's ever worked with the guy. Like he brings a level of intensity, but also a hyper vigilance of like the presence, you know, that that he kind of commands when he's in public, like knowing that everybody, you know, is aware of who he is and everything that comes out of his mouth and the energy that he's carrying will be, you know, kind of a story that will be told later, you know? And but at the same time, it's like, it's not a like, it sort of feels performative, but I think it's really authentic to who he is. And maybe it's something he's cultivated over time. But there's no question that he brings a level of professional athleticism to his work, like the intensity with which he performs these stunts

• 9:58Rich Roll?

  and his level of investment and care in these projects, these huge movies that he makes. It's like undeniable, like he is a unicorn in that regard. Like, nobody is doing, you know, what he is doing and executing it at that level. And then to also like, you know, have that incredibly rigorous schedule and still like be exuberant and enthusiastic and like kind of share that with other people in that infectious way. It's it's kind of an amazing thing. He is like an alien in that regard. Like, I don't know if there's anybody else that that can do that, pull that off.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  No, but it's a good lesson and it connects to a lot of themes that I've been thinking about in my career at the moment, which is when you're really pursuing something you love and you're trying to be the best at it. I think I've always thought of that as a journey of self mastery. Like you get more disciplined, you get more in control, you get, you master yourself in the pursuit of doing this thing well. And I think in this phase of my career and in studying other people who are pursuing mastery in very different arenas, I'm starting to see that it's more about understanding and revealing and expressing something authentic about yourself, which grows harder when you have this structure around it. It grows harder

• 11:15Speaker 01

  when you, you know, everyone who meets him has the story to tell about who this person is and how they carried themselves. It's easy to like become so shut down in that, but it's really a gift and, and a something to aspire to, to be able to still be authentically expressing something true through what you're doing.

• 11:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The idea of mastery kind of in a, in a writ large way, like not just mastery of like being, you know, an elite mountain bike racer, but like, but like mastery of self, like holistically, like your best expression as an athlete will be by virtue of your level of investment in mastering like all of you, right? Rather than like segmenting it. And I think, I think a lot of athletes, like that comes with maturity and with, you know, having to face obstacles and losing, you know, big races and things like that, where you get to this point where you're like, okay, what is, what is the why behind this?

• 12:19Rich Roll?

  And how do I weave, you know, who I am into what I do so that these things are not like separated, but like kind of integrated in a way that, you know, raises the tide for, you know, all aspects of my life. And I feel like you're not only like in that process, like you're, you're, you've figured that out or you are kind of advanced in, you know, your ability to kind of like solve that equation for yourself.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's certainly a process, but I'm, I'm learning more. And I think to be able to be learning more at this phase of my career than ever before is actually something that's really exciting. I've been a professional athlete for almost 10 years. And I'm, I'm learning in a different direction in some ways now, which is that zooming out and that kind of holistic approach that hopefully also makes you better at the core thing that you're trying to achieve.

• 13:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I've said this before, but I think it belies that, that instinct or that sense that my best performances are going to be unlocked if I like limit my life and just do this one thing and just become maniacal about it. And every, you know, exceptional athlete that I've had the privilege to like sit across in this context, you know, kind of will tell you the opposite. Like when their lives are fuller and all of their kind of, you know, values aren't like put in one bucket, but kind of like dispersed across other things in their life that are important, that that becomes this unlock for, you know, the, the level of performance that had always eluded them.

• 13:57Rich Roll?

  I mean, your friend Chelsea Sedaro is an example of that, I think.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  I love Chelsea Sedaro.

• 14:02Rich Roll?

  I know. You guys, like your friendship is like my favorite thing. That video of you guys in the pink, matching pink outfits, like when you guys train together, like that's the best.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Well, finding a training partner like that goes a long way in some of these outer challenges of training and, and, you know, trying to get into the physical shape to perform well, but more so on that mental side. And I think it's really grappling with that, right? Like there's, I've heard you say before, there's this instinct that if you like went and lived at altitude by yourself in a cabin in the woods. And like only ate rice and only trained and meditated 10 hours a day, you'd be your best. And to be honest, in certain phases of my career, I've done pretty close to that, to try to get an edge, to try to kind of control the outcome and, and, you know, nail it on this one day. And Spoiler alert, that really didn't work for me.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  But I think you have to test those edges and I think that's the value of pursuing something for a long period of time is you kind of like test all these different edges and you find the nuance. And I remember there was an interview from Steve Magnus and Brad Stolberg did an interview once with a famous running coach and I can't remember his name, but I remember the content of the interview. And they were talking about at the beginning of your career as a coach, you kind of, you know the basics, right? You know, okay, you're supposed to do zone two, you got some intervals, here's generally what you're supposed to do. And over time, you add things in, you try, oh, what's this cold plunge thing about? What's, you know, what if we did this with diet? What if we, you know, incorporated mental training?

• 15:40Speaker 01

  And you try all these things and you add and add and add and add. And at a certain point, it's too much and you kind of lose the plot. And then I think you take things away, one by one, and say like, what's, what's really at the core of what it takes to be great? Not generally, but like great for N of one, great for me. Like what does being great look like for Kate Courtney in the XC mountain bike season this year? And what you kind of come back to is a lot of those really simple lessons that maybe a beginning coach knew, but now you have the nuance of why each thing matters and how

• 16:20Speaker 01

  you can apply them in just the right way to maximize the results.

• 16:26Rich Roll?

  And as an athlete who is accumulating experience over time, you develop a self-understanding of like what you need and that relationship with a coach becomes more of a collaborative partnership rather than like, tell me what to do and I do it, right? Like, that's a whole evolution as well. I mean, I know you've gone through a couple of coaches in your own career. What has that evolution been like for you?

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, coaching is so important and I think it fits a different role for different athletes, depending on their mindset. I love working with a team of experts who know more than I do about their different roles and who can help put together a plan that brings out the best in me. So coaching has always been really, really important for me. I love data, I love numbers, and I love that process of working together. I have gone through three coaching changes. I kind of started with a more junior development coach and that was the right thing at the right time for me. It kind of managed my training load and also my, kind of the pressure that I was putting on myself. And that was during my early years of racing

• 17:38Speaker 01

  and into my U23 years where I was also a full-time student. And I'm really grateful for that period. Looking back, I get a lot of questions from young athletes. Should I be training 20 hours a week, you know, in high school and college? And I took three rest days a week when I was at Stanford because I had to. And actually, I think it allowed me to develop as an athlete so that by the time I graduated, I was ready to go to a new level. And that involved a coaching change to Jim Miller, who, you know, has coached a lot of Olympians and world champions and was at USA Cycling at the time. And I remember going into his office when I was 18 and saying like, I want to go to the Olympics and I

• 18:22Speaker 01

  want to win a world title. And I actually forgot about that conversation, but he reminded me of it much later. But at that time, I needed someone who really took those goals seriously and was willing to kind of hold the standard of what that took. So a lot of those years for me were about almost overreaching in a productive way, knowing, okay, if I want to be able to compete as an elite racer, like, here's the bar and we're going to keep trying to meet it. And then 2018, 2019, time comes along and we kind of had that formula for, for meeting that bar and, and being able to accomplish a lot of those goals. We can,

• 19:05Speaker 01

  then I had another coaching change, but maybe it's worth discussing what happens in between.

• 19:09Rich Roll?

  Well, well, I think before we even kind of move into that specifically, let's like, take it all the way back and, and kind of set the stage here. You mentioned at the outset, California is where mountain biking Was originated. That's where it was invented. That's where it started. Not only that, it really originated in Marin County around Mount Tam, which is where you grew up, right? And I remember, you know, I went to Stanford before you were born, but those were the very beginning years of mountain biking. And I, you know, I remember the first like stump jumper bikes and things that were coming out around that time and Marin Cycles, that was like a big brand, you know, at the outset of mountain biking.

• 19:54Rich Roll?

  And you were sort of, you know, born into this culture, right? Like you grew up with your dad tooling you around on Mount Tam. So this was, you know, kind of, in terms of your origin story, like it's, it's kind of like part of your DNA.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  It really is. And I think the interesting thing about growing up in a culture is that you don't really appreciate what's unique about it until you grow beyond that and see, oh, there's other ways of doing things. But I grew up in a community where being outside was a huge part of why people lived there. Being out on Mount Tam, whether it was running or hiking or being on your bike, that was, that was not a sport. That was just kind of like part of your lifestyle. And for me, I see that as a huge gift because I really fell in love with this kind of adventure, community, spending time outside, part of the sport, before I ever knew that competitive mountain biking existed. And

• 20:52Speaker 01

  I really credit that to growing up in an area where that was part of the DNA.

• 20:56Rich Roll?

  So where did the competition aspect of it enter your life?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  In high school. So I grew up doing a lot of different sports and I would say, I was always told I had a lot of hustle, but I was not very good, which is kind of a bad combination because you know, you're already trying very hard and maybe it's just not meant to be. But I think I then discovered trail running and, and running cross country. And that was kind of the first. Thing that felt like a real fit. I think I was drawn to the way that work accumulated in an endurance sport. And I think also the mindfulness aspect, like being out, just being able to let your mind and body wander a bit on the mountain. I love those things. And so I was

• 21:44Speaker 01

  looking for a sport to cross train for running in the spring and my high school had a mountain bike team. And it was part of the NorCal Mountain Biker League and I joined the team. It was me and five guys and did my first mountain bike race. And immediately I was just drawn to not just the training, but the racing itself. And I think that's a feeling I hadn't yet experienced was that like love of the actual competition piece and of being in the race. That felt very different for me than running or any of these other sports that I'd tried.

• 22:20Rich Roll?

  Two things. Did you win your first race?

• 22:23Speaker 01

  I did win my first race. I was racing in the freshman girls category of the high school mountain bike race.

• 22:30Rich Roll?

  Second thing, you went to a high school that had a mountain biking team. Like that's just, that's like wild, right? Is that like only, you know, in Marin County? Or are there high schools with mountain bike teams that I'm just unaware of this?

• 22:45Speaker 01

  So the NorCal League was the first. So yeah, this was quite a while ago that I was a freshman in high school and, and we had a mountain bike team. But now that program has grown massively. So NICA, the National Interschlossische Cycling Association, has over 25,000 student athletes across the country. And they have, I'm not sure, there are over 20 leagues. I'm not sure where they are exactly now, but it's an incredible sport for high school aged kids. And I think there's a few dimensions to that. I think it's very family oriented. Families are very involved with going to these races and making them happen. It's a mass start event. So there's room on the start line for everyone.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  And also cycling uniquely, I think lends itself to a multitude of goals. So you might want to win the race, but you might want to just go farther or faster than you went last time. You might want to get healthy. You might want to, you know, just have a sport to be a part of. And I think it has a home for all of those different approaches and to fit into people's lives in different ways that I think is really valuable for kids of that age.

• 23:50Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So you get into it, you start to develop this, you know, interest and passion for the competition aspect of it. And you have a pretty, as far as I can tell, like a kind of a rapid rise in the sport. You enter Stanford in 2013, right?

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:08Rich Roll?

  And at some point shortly thereafter, like you sign your first professional contract, right? So you're a professional athlete as a young student in college.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, it was not a huge contract. It was for $0 in bonuses. So

• 24:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but you can, you can say you were a pro.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  I always say that because I think it's important to know, as you, you understand my mindset at that time, I loved racing my bike and I was very serious about it. And I was curious about what might be possible for me in the sport, but there wasn't a pathway immediately accessible to me of what it would look like to go and, and try to make a living doing this. And so for me, school was my focus and it felt like mountain biking was almost my hobby. Like I, I got to go and do all these races and I was supported very, very well. That's really what you get from those early pro contracts. You get bikes, you get

• 25:07Speaker 01

  flown to World Cups, you get mechanics and physios and, and help making that racing possible. But for me,

• 25:17Speaker 01

  I think my goals are really driven by me at that time and I was being given this amazing space while I was in school to have a bit of a positive distraction and to slowly make progress. And so in my four years at Stanford, I raced U23 categories, so that's 19 to 22. And in the World Cups, I was eighth overall, fourth overall, second overall, and then my last year in school, I won the overall. And so I just got a little bit better every year. And when you're eighth in U23, when you're a freshman in college, there's a big gap between that and making a living as a professional racer in the elite category. When you win

• 25:58Speaker 01

  the overall, that jump is much smaller and feels much more possible. And so I kind of had this slow trajectory in college where, you know, my perspective changed throughout those four years, that it went from being kind of a far-off dream to like a real possibility to try and make a go of it.

• 26:18Rich Roll?

  And during that period of time, were you training on your own or was there like a group that you would train with? Or what did that, it was sort of up to you to figure out like how to get that done, right?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it was very individual. I had my coach, Jamila, at the time and I really just followed that training plan and just tried to make everything fit together the best I could. And that's one of the things, there's kind of a benefit and a cost to having a sport like mountain biking that's so individual is you spend a lot of your time training alone. It also makes it very flexible. And so I think for me at that time, I, you know, studying felt like a break from training and training felt like a break from studying. And that makes it sound like a perfect balance. It was often pretty messy and there were trade-offs. But I really enjoyed actually training by myself, being on group rides sometimes, having

• 27:13Speaker 01

  good training buddies, but being able to just lock in, get it done in the shortest time possible and get back to work.

• 27:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you were a hump bio major, right?

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:25Rich Roll?

  I did the hump bio.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Do you have Maya?

• 27:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I was I that was gonna be my major. I ended up switching to American Studies, but I did the core like it's a great program.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  The core is very hard, so you probably imagine that sophomore year was a little challenging for me.

• 27:38Rich Roll?

  I mean, I bring that up only to say like, you know, like it's, you know, the academic aspect of this is rigorous. So you're balancing those two things at the same time.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have a very distinct memory from that time. It was doing the Humbio Core, and there were a lot of group projects and like group dynamics, which is actually a very wonderful part of that program is that you work together with your other classmates. But I remember in the spring, I would go and race the World Cups and I would miss three weeks of a 10 week quarter, which I had to do a lot of bargaining with the teachers to be able to do that. I'm writing extra papers. I'm reading extra books. I'm I'm getting notes. It was certainly hard to even be able to set that up. But I remember I got on my first World Cup podium in Europe, and that was kind of the pie in the sky for me

• 28:29Speaker 01

  as a U23 rider is like being able to compete in Europe. It's a very Euro dominated sport at the moment, even though it started in the US. And that was kind of like the highest level. And so I get on this podium, I'm in third, and I get a trophy. It's it's super exciting. It's something I've been chasing for a long time. And I went back to the hotel and I only got internet in the hallway. And I was like in the hallway till 3:00 in the morning, trying to do this group project, just crying, just crying and getting it done. And to me, like, it forced me to be so clear on why I was doing everything I was doing,

• 29:13Speaker 01

  and that I was making a choice. And I think that was really valuable for me at that time to know that I was making a choice. I'm choosing to do this because I care about it and I love it and I want to succeed and it means a lot to me. I'm also choosing to be in school because I love it and I'm curious about it and it's important to me. And and I just had to get through those moments. And it was often really challenging, but also I look back and

• 29:39Speaker 01

  I had a very full life at that time in a way that was really great.

• 29:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the glamorous life of the fledgling professional athlete. But I will say, you know, in my experience, Stanford is pretty great about accommodating, you know, people like yourself who are balancing sort of competing goals. Like, it's sort of a place that celebrates that, like, let's make it work as opposed to maybe a stodgy, you know, kind of East Coast institution who would say, well, you have to make a choice, either you're going to do that or you're going to do this, but, you know, we're not going to be flexible. And I feel like one of the reasons why I wanted to go to Stanford is because you could feel that. They're like, oh, yeah, we're here to like, you know, help you, you know, achieve your dreams or, you know, your goals and your ambitions.

• 30:26Rich Roll?

  And, you know, often those things come in all different kinds of shapes and forms that don't fit into like the exact kind of like paradigm of a university.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think they do a really good job of that. And at the core of it, I think they recognize that having multiple pursuits can actually be very valuable. So having multiple things that you're trying to master or make progress in at one time, like, being an athlete made me a better student and being a student made me a better athlete. And I feel that you can really see that at a school like Stanford where most students have something else that's interesting to them. It's not just about like having an outside achievement. It's about having something else that fuels your fire and keeps you really motivated.

• 31:11Rich Roll?

  So during that period of time when you're going to, from eighth to, you know, you're kind of, you're working your way up the ladder, was there a specific moment where you're like, oh, this is, this is what I'm going to be doing? Like, this is where I'm going to be placing my focus? I can see a future for myself in this as an athlete.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I think it was really that last year in 2017. It was my last year as a college student and also as an under 23 racer. And I actually missed the Olympic team in 2016. So it was a decision between me and two other athletes and it was a stay up till midnight and see the team come out situation, right? Like, you're waiting, you're refreshing, you're refreshing, and I didn't make the team. And that was honestly pretty devastating for me at the time. I think I knew that my results weren't necessarily Quite there yet, but I was also much, much younger than anyone else trying to make the team. And so there was, there was a good chance that I would have been selected.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  And I missed that opportunity. And so I really got serious that fall. And that's actually, I guess I got the timeline a little wrong here. I actually started training with Jim that year. That was kind of my first year.

• 32:23Rich Roll?

  But you're like, I'm not gonna let that happen again.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so I started training with Jim after that and was like, we need to step up the game. And this last year is kind of my opportunity to see what I'm capable of, and if it's worth pursuing this as a career. Of course, I wanted to, but it's a little bit of a, you knock on the door and the door opens or it doesn't.

• 32:41Rich Roll?

  And unlike track and field or swimming, there's some discretion that comes into play with the Olympic selection process in mountain biking.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 32:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  But it was a really-

• 32:52Rich Roll?

  Which comes into play later in your career.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  It does, a little bit. But it really, that moment for me, I think clarified my goal. The goal in that moment was I want to go in 2020 and I want, I don't want it to be discretionary. I want to make the automatic selection and I want it to be really clear that I earned a spot on the team. And that really kicked off that kind of next phase. And so the moment when I knew that would really be feasible was when I started the 2017 season, that last year, year 23, and I won the first race. And I knew it was possible to be on the podium. I knew I really wanted to be competitive and I was, I was right

• 33:34Speaker 01

  there. But outright winning that race was a really big step in my career. And it made me feel like those, those goals were in reach and that the work I was doing was getting me there.

• 33:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So 2017, you graduate from college, you go full-time pro, and then you go on this like sort of epic tear from 17 through 19, where you're just crushing it, like you're really sending it, right? And you become kind of like the new face of this sport entirely, right? So walk me through like the experience of suddenly kind of winning everything at the highest level and the spotlight that it placed upon you and kind of how that, you know, kind of informed this new, you know, kind of chapter in your career.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I graduated 2018. I'm fully focused on mountain bike racing and I go into my first year of Elite Racing and I ended up doing a big stage race at the beginning of the year, the Cape Oppeck, and we won that, which was a big, big step actually to survive that.

• 34:42Rich Roll?

  That's a huge, multi-day, incredibly rigorous mountain bike race in which you race with a team member and it's a tandem thing.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we were really kind of stretching my limit and I was trying to ride to the occasion of this first year Elite. And all year, I'm like in the top 10 and I kept getting close. If you're paying close attention, like I'd be with the leaders and then I'd blow up. I'd be with the leaders and then I'd have a flat. I'd be with the leaders and then something would happen. And at the last race of the season at the World Championships, I had one of my best races ever and I was in second place going into the last lap and was able to make contact with the leader and she made a mistake and I attacked and

• 35:28Speaker 01

  I won a World Championship title. And that moment was something that I hadn't like closed that possibility. It wasn't something that I said was definitely not possible, but I certainly had not expected to win that race. I think my goal, I always set goals in kind of three levels. So I'd like the bronze level goal is just kind of be top 10, keep the status quo. It's a solid performance. My silver level, like, okay, this would be a step up, was finally get into the top five. And the like shoot for the moon goal was top three, like earning a medal. And to win was this kind of breakout moment and you

• 36:09Speaker 01

  only really get that once in your career. I think when it's happening, you don't necessarily appreciate that, but that kind of surprise, over-delivery, everything comes together and you've shown that something that felt impossible was possible. It kind of causes this like seismic shift in your career where you can no longer say, oh, you know, I don't know if it's possible to win. Like it's been possible at one point in your career and now the goal is to back that up.

• 36:57Rich Roll?

  So it's 2019, you're killing it, you're at the top of your game, you're like a coiled spring, right? And then the whole world shuts down, right? When you're kind of ready to have like this insane year.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was a really challenging process for me. So 2019, I'm racing the rainbow jersey, I'm the world champion. And I was able to back that up. I really, I had breakout results at the World Cups. I won the World Cup overall, which is kind of the average of all the World Cup series. And I did automatically qualify for Tokyo in 2020. And as you probably know, in America, when you pre-qualify for the Olympics, like, it becomes a big media story. And they, you get a lot of opportunities as a result of that. So it was kind of the fall of 2019 into 2020, I'm doing the media, I'm doing the Team USA kind of appearances,

• 37:54Speaker 01

  doing commercials, getting ready for this Olympic Games. And I think at the time, I was really excited about the opportunity to finally compete and to compete with the chance of meddling. And that story was repeated over and over in the press, right? Okay, you're, she's from where mountain biking began, and now, you know, we're gonna go win Tokyo.

• 38:20Rich Roll?

  It's a very tidy narrative.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  It's a very tidy narrative. And I felt that pressure really mounting. But I think that when kind of March came around, I was finally starting to race. And I was like, okay, now I just get to do the thing. And then all the racing got canceled. And they moved things in like, six week increments for us. So they'd cancel a race, move it six weeks, cancel a race, move it six weeks. And so we just kept training and kind of staying prepared. Obviously, then they moved the Olympics. And I think that year for me...

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Was was really stressful because I was trying to like, hold on to this narrative and hold on to what was the best shape of my life, really going into that year and this kind of like four year plan was was working.

• 39:05Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  And then it became a five year plan and that kicked off what ended up being a really, really challenging couple of years in my career.

• 39:13Rich Roll?

  Had they not done that kind of six week thing and just said, listen, the whole year's off, like you could have taken a breath, regrouped and figured out how to strategize to make yourself as ready as you could for the following year, but that kind of thing of like, it's about to always happen, like is not only anxiety producing and stressful, but informing your training decisions, which are like, how do I stay on this razor's edge, you know, and continue to kind of do that moving forward, which isn't in the interest of any athlete.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's hard for everyone and I want to acknowledge that, you know, having your athletic goals put on hold is not the most challenging outcome of the pandemic and people were dealing with things that were much more stressful and life altering than that. But I do think the mindset was challenging for everyone because in hindsight, of course, I should have taken the year off, I should have learned a language, like taken some writing classes, I don't know, done something else. But in those moments, it's really a skill to be able to shift and to be able to accept reality as it's unfolding and and make a different decision. And I don't think I had the capacity to do that at that time.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  I think it really felt like I had to do this thing and I was not able to let go of the pressure and stress that I was putting on that one goal that now was a year away.

• 40:40Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. How much of that stress was driven by intrinsic motivation and expectations versus like the extrinsic kind of like being in the media spotlight aspect of the whole thing?

• 40:55Speaker 01

  It's such a good question and I don't know if I can give a really clear answer to it, but I think it was some of both. Goals as an athlete, they do initially come from you. Like I was the one who wanted to target that race and to really see what was possible. But I think Being at your best as an athlete involves an element of curiosity. I wonder what I might be capable of. And curiosity involves a level of uncertainty. There's a multitude of outcomes, some of which may be better than what I expect, some of which may be really disappointing.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  I accept that full range and we're going to do this thing and, and give everything to it and be curious about the outcome. And I think sometimes that kind of crystallization of the storyline of what you're supposed to do takes away the curiosity and takes away the fun. And then ultimately it takes away your ability to go all in and perform. Because the, the band of outcomes that is acceptable, and whether that's acceptable to me or to the media or to my team or whoever, becomes so narrow that you can no longer really engage with the activity.

• 42:15Rich Roll?

  And the risk of overly self identifying with them. Like who am I if I'm not standing on this podium or winning this medal?

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a trap that is really easy to fall into as an athlete where you just, it feels really good to associate your identity with your sport when you're winning. Right? You're like, yeah, you know what? Maybe this is who I am.

• 42:40Rich Roll?

  No problems here.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  This looks great.

• 42:42Rich Roll?

  I'm the person who wins.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  The gift of coming up short is having clarity in that separation. And that's, I would say, really been at the crux of what I've been sorting through since that Olympic experience. Spoiler alert, it did not go well. I think everyone can imagine.

• 43:03Rich Roll?

  I want to unpack the Tokyo experience, but I think before that, like I, I also want to kind of better understand this cloistered subculture of mountain bike racing. As an American, like I have a lens on it, but I also know that it's very different in Europe. Right? And that's really kind of where it blossoms in a way that we don't really experience here in the States.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a much bigger deal in many European countries. It's the national sport in Switzerland and-

• 43:33Rich Roll?

  Which is where I met you for the first time.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Which is where I met you the first time.

• 43:37Rich Roll?

  You were training, you were training there at the time.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, near Lake Zurich. Yeah, it just because of that focus and the focus in investment in development, they've produced a lot of really, really talented racers. And I think also geography plays a big role because it's a lot easier to drive from one European country to another and, you know, go to an Austrian Cup one weekend and then a Swiss Cup and then an Italian Cup. Whereas for an American to get to those races, it's a 10 hour flight and spending a lot of time away from home. So because of that, I think there was a lot of kind of inter-country competition in Europe that brought the level up in a way that wasn't necessarily happening in the US at the time.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  Although I will say now we are seeing a huge resurgence of US athletes being super, super competitive.

• 44:28Rich Roll?

  And how does the whole point system work? Like there's a World Cup series, right? And a bunch of races and you you get points as you go along. And then there's sort of like a who won the World Cup and then a World Championships. How important is that in the context of like the Olympics? Like, is it more important to go to the Olympics? Is it more important to like distinguish yourself in this World Cup series? Like, how do you think about that?

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Very good question. I'll give a brief mountain biking 101. Cross-country mountain biking, the races are about an hour and a half in length. So it's kind of the length of a half marathon. But I say the effort is more like sprinting a marathon. So you have a lot of anaerobic short climbs. There's technical descending, there's single track, there's some jumps, there's some rocks, and you do about five laps of a four or five K course. And that's, you know, a mass start event, first person across the finish line wins. So we have 10, nine or 10 World Cups a year of that race. And there's a series overall, but there's also the individual events matter quite a lot. And there's kind of the World Cup overall champion is the person who accumulates the

• 45:38Speaker 01

  most points in that series. I would say they focus a bit more like the one day event of cycling. And this goes across mountain biking, across road, cycle, cross, all the different disciplines, have a one day world championship. And if you win that world championship, you win the rainbow jersey, which is kind of. I'd say next to the yellow jersey is the most visible and kind of celebrated jersey in the sport of cycling.

• 46:05Rich Roll?

  And then you get to wear that for the next year.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  And you get to wear it for the next year, which is pretty fun. And you get to wear stripes forever. So you have stripes on your jersey for the rest of your career. So that is like the every year competition. That will be my focus this year. The World Cup races, targeting, you know, a few of them in particular, and then the World Championships. And then every four years, we have the Olympics. And in mountain biking, what's really interesting is that the Olympics is a very, very small field. We only have about 30 athletes in the Olympics race. And there's, you know, 80 to 150 in a normal World Cup. So what ends up happening is because the selection criteria are so tight, winning the

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Olympics is likely harder than any kind of World Cup or World Championship event, just because like it comes every four years, everybody's focusing on it. We know like what it takes to kind of get it to all line up on that day. But the depth of the field is quite different. So it's probably easier to get a top 10 in the Olympics than in your kind of any World Cup. So it's this interesting dynamic with the sport where all of it can matter a lot, but there's definitely like a different media focus on different events.

• 47:20Rich Roll?

  So much emphasis on the Olympics and, you know, my frame is always like swimming or track and field. Like in those sports, the variables are very limited. Like you have your lane, no one's going to jump into your lane and get into your way or anything like that, right? Like you can kind of anticipate what you're going to face. Mountain biking is different. Like the course is very dynamic and, you know, you guys are bumping into each other and there's all kinds of strategizing going on. So like so many things can happen, only so much of which you can kind of prepare yourself for. That being said, like going into Tokyo, like my sense was that you were like raring to go, like everything was lining up and this was going to be like your day. So is that true?

• 48:05Rich Roll?

  And like, explain kind of like what unfolded.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  My training that year was a little bit different. We were really trying to target that race and do the anaerobic work that was kind of called for by the Tokyo course. And things went well, but not perfectly all spring. And I think that alone would have been fine. I ended up, I broke my arm at the second World Cup and kind of had to take a period to recover from that. And I think just at every juncture, I doubled down. And so that mindset, by the time I got to the actual race, I think my stress levels were

• 48:50Speaker 01

  so high that I really felt like I need this to go well. And of course, in bike racing, you just mentioned, things actually rarely go perfectly. Like even in your best races, there's a fumble, or a weird pass, or a moment that you had doubt or didn't feel great, and then it comes together. And I don't think that I had the ability to like tolerate that range of experience in that race. And I ended up having, you know, a mistake and clipping out early in the race and started near the back. And that alone should be fine in a race, but really, really challenged me in that event. And I was not able to put

• 49:35Speaker 01

  together the performance that I believe I was capable of at that time.

• 49:39Rich Roll?

  So you ended up 15th in that race?

• 49:42Speaker 01

  I think 15th, yes.

• 49:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's interesting. It's that tension between, you know, the amount of like grit and dedication that you have to demonstrate, you know, in order to get there in the first place. But if, you know, the answer to every question and setback is like more grit, more suffering, and, you know, and holding on even tighter than you were before, you know, at some point, that starts to go at cross purposes with the ultimate goal. Like when you're holding on so hard, you're not, you're not, you don't have like the emotional resilience to deal with those kind of variables that don't go your way. And you're unable to kind of like roll with what's actually happening in reality to perform at your best.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I heard someone say once that high performance is like holding sand. Where if you hold it too tight, the sand slips through your fingers. If you hold it too loose, the sand slips through your fingers. And it's really just having that like right amount of tension to be able to both take things very seriously and be completely invested and also have that little bit of a relaxed, loose, accepting, flexible, adaptable mentality. And I think that's really the task in elite sport is like finding that set point and understanding what it takes to get there for you as an athlete mentally and physically.

• 51:08Rich Roll?

  Which is gonna look different for every single different person.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  That's the fun part.

• 51:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How did you kind of emotionally, you know, manage that setback from Tokyo?

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, um, you know, it's easy now to kind of like chunk these periods of my career together. I think there was kind of a year of just dealing with kind of the emotional fallout of that, trying to like get back to having fun on my bike. I remember I got a blood test after Tokyo and my cortisol was like 55. It's like five times what's normal for me. And really that became the first task is like get back to a baseline for me and start to sort through some of these maybe less helpful mental patterns that developed during this period where I was so attached to this outcome that I didn't end up getting.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  And that was actually a really valuable process for me. I think it forces you to create a bit more of that separation of self and craft. And that was really important to have at that time. So focusing a bit more on like life outside of biking and family, my husband, my friends and community, riding my bike because I loved it. Those things really brought me back to that baseline. And then I think after a period of kind of two years or a year and a half, I really started to feel the itch to get back to that level of competitiveness. I think I

• 52:48Speaker 01

  Worked through that emotional piece and got myself to a level where I could like accept the outcome and be in the race. But it almost like doled my racing a bit like I was performing kind of, I've been ninth through 15th in almost every World Cup for the last four years, right? Where you're, you're racing really well. It's actually very hard to get to that position, but it's very different than competing to win. And I think that requires even another level of evolution for me. And bringing back that competitive edge and that fire and, and desire to really like be competing at the top.

• 53:28Rich Roll?

  Every elite athlete endures a career of ebbs and flows and peaks and valleys and things like that. And, and you know, success in a longevity context is always very much a function of that athlete's ability to kind of put everything in its proper context and have perspective over that until like, understand that those ebbing periods or those, you know, dips in performance are all learning experiences that can kind of inform, you know, performance going forward. But that's gotta be very difficult when you have this kind of like, you know, couple years where you were just like killing it and then things aren't working out for a period of time. And you could tell yourself, well, I'm in a rebuilding phase or I'm like exploring

• 54:13Rich Roll?

  other aspects of my life. But I would imagine, you know, you're kind of like always thinking about like, how am I going to get back to like that place where I was? And, you know, not just live in the shadow of like past performances. I mean, were there moments where you're like, okay, I could keep getting nines and tens and things like that, but is that really what I want to do with my life? Like, is this really the path for me? Like, were there moments where you thought like, maybe it's time to hang it up? Or like, how did you find that fire to stay in it? And then also on top of that, the fire to be like, okay, like now I really want to be focused on. Performing at my absolute best.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Completely. It's really, it's really challenging in a sport where you kind of put a little bit in and you got a lot out. And then you're putting a lot in and you're not quite getting the returns that you're looking for. And I did have that moment. I think for me, at its best, sport makes me a better, more complete, more joyful, hardworking version of myself. Like, it makes me better for every other aspect of my life. It makes me a better partner, makes me a better community member. It is really elevating to all these other things. And that's when things are working really, really well.

• 55:34Rich Roll?

  Did you always have that awareness, or did you earn that awareness over time?

• 55:38Speaker 01

  I think I earned that awareness over time. That one of the things I love about my sport is that when I'm kind of lit up in this way that I get when I'm pursuing this thing that I love, it translates to being more lit up and alive in, in life as a whole. And that wasn't really happening for this period of time. It felt like it was almost draining me of that excitement and life's force. Like, I'm just like trying to hold on and hold on long enough to get back on the podium, right? That was the goal. I'm like, okay, this will be fixed with a result,

• 56:17Speaker 01

  obviously, which never works. But I think, you know, in that period, I, I will tell you a story. I had a race, the world championships, and it was the first qualifier for Paris. And it was a top three. And I said, okay, I've been in this kind of medium period. Like, what if I just go all in and try to get top three at this race? And like, this is the beginning of like, being able to peak for events and really perform. And I had a six-week training block, and everything pretty much went perfectly. Like, I never got sick. I never had an issue. I did every workout as it was prescribed, hit every number, got good sleep every night,

• 57:02Speaker 01

  and I got into the race. And I was not competitive at that level. And I remember like riding around the course drafting my retirement letter in my head thinking, okay, like if this is it, this is it. And I, I can do something else if that's what I want to do. And I remember I had just read Abby Wambach's book Forward and she talks about this kind of retirement juncture and she had a line in there that's really stuck with me, which was when she was going through retirement, she had the realization that soccer never made me who I was, like I brought who I am to soccer. And that really, really like permeated my thinking at that time.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  I was like, okay, mountain biking doesn't make me who I am. I'm bringing who I am to mountain biking. And if it's not serving my life as a whole, maybe it's time to think about like opening the aperture on what's possible in my life. And my husband was there. We were in Glasgow and we had a day planned, which I'll be honest with you, was a celebratory plan, right? We're like, oh, we'll go to Edinburgh and we'll spend the day celebrating after Worlds. And we spent like 10 hours walking the streets of this beautiful old town and talking about what I wanted from this chapter of my life and career and what that looks like for me,

• 58:32Speaker 01

  but also for us as a team and as a partnership. And it's, we still talk about that moment a lot because it was like complete vulnerability, openness on the table. Like what are the options? Like what is exciting? And he gave me the advice that in life, you can never just move away from something. You always have to move towards something new, towards something that's exciting. You don't just move away from something that didn't work or didn't feel good. You need to have something in its place. And so we kind of talked through it and I said, You know, I, I still feel deeply that I have more to give in this sport.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  And what would make it worth giving that? And so we said, okay, coach, team, career, one's changing, leaving this conversation. And we didn't make a decision on what, but I kind of had this like two day reflective period. And through a series of what I can only call synchronicity, I ended up connecting with a coach who had worked with Pauline Ferrin-Provo when she was around my age. And she was 28 and she'd been struggling and she similarly, she won all three road, gravel and mountain bike world titles in one year. And I think had a similar period of struggle after that. She had some injuries and some challenges.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  And I think a lot of people told her to retire. And this coach ended up working with her and, and solving some of those problems with her. And she targeted her home Olympics in Paris and she won by three minutes. So it worked out for her. But I, I wasn't as interested in that like result story. I was more interested in the way that this coach approached the whole athlete and like supporting an athlete holistically to like find their best in the racing and also in the training and like be able to bring that kind of personality and individuality back into the sport.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  And so I drove up to altitude camp and made the decision in one day to switch coaches right then and started working with this new coach. And that's been a really amazing journey.

• 1:00:54Rich Roll?

  So on that tip of like a holistic approach to training in life, like what were the specific changes that he implemented that were meaningful?

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  I think sometimes we just need a change. Like I think it's easy to say, oh, this worked with this coach and this didn't work and get really into specifics. But sometimes you just get stuck in a pattern or a rut, or the stimulus that you've had is no longer getting the response that it used to. And so I think just having that change was really refreshing. But I also think, you know, having someone see.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Where I was fully and really deeply believe what I believed that I have more to give and he's going to be a thought partner and a partner in revealing that and getting me to a place where I could give that physically and mentally was really exciting to me. And I think that's what I come back to when I think of that Edinburgh like walk in the darkness was this felt like a light to move towards. This felt like, okay, this is exciting. This is worth trying. And I went to altitude camp and I called him up. Okay, Coach, his name is Barry Austin. I goes Barry, what's my, what's my training for the next few days?

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  And he said, you've been so focused on doing that you forgot, forgotten how to be. I just want you to be up at altitude and ride your bike for three days and then we'll make a plan. And that alone, like it was an indicator that I'd found someone who recognized my strengths, but who also could bring a different perspective and, and kind of get me out of this echo chamber of high performance where everything got narrower and narrower and narrower. And I was trying to control and control to get an outcome. And this, again, this was widening that aperture.

• 1:02:51Rich Roll?

  And also probably confronting for somebody who's such a data geek, right? Like, what do you mean be? Like, how's that going to show up on my garden?

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  I'm like, could you tell me what watts I need to be at?

• 1:03:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, I've heard you, I've heard you talk about the difference between maximizing and optimizing, which I'm curious about, but this chapter feels like, okay, it's this journey from like optimizing to maximizing to expanding.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really was. And I think one of the things that I really appreciated about the training early on was that it was very different and that it really involved mindset. And I think when I'm super attached to numbers, you talk about the maximizing versus optimizing, my goal became to just get the numbers higher and higher because that's what worked when I was young, right? When you're really young and you start out, you Like, reach the next level of data and then you reach the next level of performance, right? You're building the engine and you're kind of notching the numbers up every year.

• 1:03:53Rich Roll?

  You have no reason to believe that that's ever gonna stop.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  Yes, which it always does, of course. And there's definitely, within different energy systems, there's a range where you kind of get to that optimal. And it's not necessarily useful to spend all your time getting your two-minute power up and getting four watts for all this energy, right? So it's maybe getting a little technical, but you can over-index on some of those things. And my coach both moved me away from numbers in some areas, but he also gave me these workouts that were open-ended. So it was like, do it until you can't anymore. And I'd call him, "Okay, but like, what number do you think I can do?" "No numbers." "What, how many do you think I should be able to do?" "No answer." And

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  I had to go just figure it out. And I think that challenge was exactly what I needed to get back to actually how I felt as a young athlete, where you're just, you were just pushing your edge and you're wondering, can I do one more? And only you can answer that question. And that was a huge part of that early period with this new coach, was actually my numbers did improve when I was able to just really focus on that effort and, and let, start to shed that kind of expectation piece of, it should be this number, if it's not, I'm behind and I won't perform well. It became, I wonder if I can do one more.

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  And then I'd get a lot of positive feedback. And it started this new cycle and this new loop of kind of getting back to what I think is really the best high-performance mindset for me.

• 1:05:47Rich Roll?

  So it's this emergence or this liberation from the data and the numbers, you know, being something that served you to then being something that you served that, you know, began to limit you. And like by just, you know, kind of focusing on the mindset piece or just feel, right? Like, that's the way out of like, you know, holding on to those numbers too tight as a predictor of, you know, kind of over extrapolating on those data sets as a predictor of outcomes.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And it's a hard process to do that, like connecting with that feeling and that qualitative aspect of racing really well.

• 1:06:27Rich Roll?

  But that's racing. And that's, that's like the superpower of every athlete, like that connectivity with yourself, like knowing how to like, you know, read into that and, you know, kind of lean into it as opposed to, you know, being so focused on the computer.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And what we ended up figuring out, so I did this off season of training with this coach and I got a lot stronger. And I thought, okay, maybe that's the answer. Maybe I just needed a little more power. And I go to the first race and I actually was competing against one of another athlete that he coaches. Her name's Candace Lil. She's a good friend. She was my partner at the stage race earlier this year. And I got dropped on this climb. And he looks at the data later and was like, this is super weird. You were doing more power than the other athlete. And we, we kind of have an understanding with this coach, like he never shares data of other athletes with you, but we all try to kind of help each other improve, which is a really interesting environment

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  that he's created among a few of these professional women. But he noticed this discrepancy and he got video footage from the side of me riding. And we discovered I basically had this big gap in my pedal stroke where I was. Fighting so hard to produce power and so disconnected from what it felt like.

• 1:07:50Rich Roll?

  Just for the purpose of the numbers.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  100%.

• 1:07:52Rich Roll?

  Not actually moving yourself forward.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  Truly.

• 1:07:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  So I had developed in this period where I was just kind of strangling the power meter to try to get a result, I developed a bit of a, yeah, a gap in my pedal stroke and this inefficiency for how much power I was doing, I should have been going a lot faster. And that was at the beginning of last year and it kind of kicked off what has now been a qualitative journey, and this is why I mentioned it, of we've had to retrain the way that I actually pedal a bike. We had to kind of do a bunch of testing to figure out how to do that and what that might look like and how we measured it. But then also spend so much time on my bike, not focused on numbers, but focused on executing

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  this form and having the specific feeling on the bike where I could start to get that efficiency back.

• 1:08:47Rich Roll?

  Because feel and mindset go hand in hand. And, you know, when you become so attached to the numbers in a race context, that can harm you more than help you. Like if you're looking at your watts and you're like, well, I can't go over this threshold because I'm going to blow up. So no matter what's happening in the race, like I'm going to keep it right here. You're not, you're not feeling your own body, right? And if you got rid of that and just went on feel, you have no idea what the numbers are and you can uncork like some, you know, crazy performance that you didn't know that you were capable of. I had Alex Hutchinson in here the other day who wrote this great book, Endure. I don't know if you've read that book.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  I love this book.

• 1:09:26Rich Roll?

  But like he's got a new book coming out. Anyway, he tells this great story when he was, I think he was in high school or maybe it was college, he was trying, his goal was to like break four minutes for the 1500 meters. He'd never done it and he thought if he could just do that, like that would put him in a new kind of like category. And he was in some stupid dual meet, like a meaningless meet. And the first lap, his split was some crazy split that was like so much faster than he ever thought that. He would ever go. And he's like, wow, well, either I'm gonna explode, but like, I feel good, so I'm gonna keep going. And he ended up like, you know, going way below four minutes in this just random, nothing meet. And then he found out later that the split that the guy gave him

• 1:10:11Rich Roll?

  for the first, you know, for the first lap was like, way off, like, it wasn't correct or whatever. But like, it's, it goes to the mindset piece and the idea of like, feel, right? And I think, as much as we've learned and how, how much that's impacted, the better men of training through, you know, watts and lactate and lactate buffering and nutrition, like, all of these things are good, right? But when we hold on to the, it's back to the hold on too tight, right? I think the real, like, horizon in terms of like, growth and human performance is like, is right here, right? In between our temples.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Completely. And that becomes a big mindset journey to try to understand these things. I think it's, something I've learned about myself is that I am prone to binary thinking. It's like, it's all amazing, or it's terrible, right? It's like, you use data, and that's all you use, or you don't. It matters, or it doesn't. And the truth is always somewhere in between.

• 1:11:15Rich Roll?

  But that gets to the metaphor of the holding the sand, right?

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Of the holding the sands, yeah.

• 1:11:20Rich Roll?

  It's a Zen Cohen, the whole thing.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  And I'll say, for example, like, we would not have discovered this missing piece in my performance, and there are other missing pieces, that's not like, the silver bullet, but it's certainly a big focus of where I can gain efficiency. But we wouldn't have discovered that without power numbers, right? Like, we kind of, the data helped reveal the missing links. But it was not necessarily the solution to those missing links.

• 1:11:51Rich Roll?

  Sure, but the whole reason you have that inefficiency in your pedal stroke is because you were so locked into the numbers.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's, it's this really interesting relationship where I think we focus a lot on the 1%. And that's become, the marginal gains mindset has become huge. And there are Like studies and research and real backing behind a lot of these 1% things. But I do think so many people ignore the 99%. Like if you just feel good, you relax, you sleep well, you have good relationships with the people in your life and you're enjoying doing your sport, like that takes you a long way, right? Like there's these big factors and I think mindset is one of those things where if focusing

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  on the 1% robs you of the ability to bring the right competitive mindset to the sport, the 1% won't help you, right? You'll develop a peddling inefficiency and be on the treadmill of frustration, right? Like it's, it's the ability to kind of hold these things in balance and right-size the importance of the different aspects of performance.

• 1:12:59Rich Roll?

  It's such an important point. I'd never heard it. I didn't know that it had a name. Like what did you call it? The marginal gains?

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:07Rich Roll?

  Theory or approach to training? Those marginal gains though are like so sexy and fun, you know, they're cold plunges and they're like, you know, special expensive, you know, sort of supplements that you put in your smoothie or they're like, you know, sleep hacks and all these, that's where all the discourse is because it's just not that interesting to talk about like how you need to kind of just go out and ride your bike all day, not worry about it.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:38Rich Roll?

  It's kind of a social media thing too, I think, that influences that.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  It's like the one.

• 1:13:42Rich Roll?

  If you string together all of these like little cherries on top, that that will like obviate all the other stuff that you actually need to do.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and I think there's also been a focus on this kind of sacrifice, discipline, like Navy SEAL version of high performance in the discourse and in on social media. And there's an element of that, like you do have to be disciplined, you do have to show up and do your job and get it done. But if you do that to the expense of joy, if you do that at the expense of curiosity, you lose this softer side of performance, the mindfulness, the focus, attention, goal setting, like all of these mental skills that at the end of the day

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  probably play a bigger role in differentiating at the very, very tip of the spear.

• 1:14:40Rich Roll?

  How did you learn that lesson?

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  I don't know that I like learned it in one moment, but I do think a focus on meditation and mindfulness has helped me in that area. And again, that's somewhere where I've had to find like the right place for that in my life and in my performance. But I've always been really drawn to working with the mind and observing your thoughts and being in the present. And I've connected with a few great teachers around that. I took some classes at Stanford.

• 1:15:12Rich Roll?

  I know you were like kind of teaching it at Stanford. This isn't like a new thing.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I connected with a great meditation coach, Patrick Sweeney, during that actually challenging period after the Olympics. And a lot of the focus was on flow state and reading a lot of texts about flow state and how that's been applied to sports in the past. And that really opened my eyes to, again, right sizing that element of discipline and focus and pushing the numbers with this kind of soft skill aspect of sport and understanding that like both are an element of being at my very best.

• 1:15:57Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. How does that play into, you know, confronting fears and managing setbacks and obstacles?

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  I think it gives you a toolset that you can use to manage those challenges. For me, though, it's less about like meditating my way out of a challenge. It's more about understanding that I can build the mental skills to learn from a situation. And that goes back to like the big growth mindset focus. And Carol Dweck has done a lot of amazing research in this field. And it

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  It's something that I come back to often and has actually really informed the way I'm thinking about this phase of my career. But ultimately, when we talk about the challenges I was dealing with around that kind of Olympics and expectation and pressure, I really shifted from this growth mindset of, you know, challenges will make me better, opportunities are opportunities to succeed. I can learn, I can improve, to this more fixed mindset of I have to be perfect, and I have to get this outcome, and I need to control this process. And I think that is really what taught me. Like, that not working was a beautiful lesson for me.

• 1:17:20Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, you have to, you know, kind of crash into the wall before you're willing to let go of that being the operating system.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:17:30Rich Roll?

  Because somebody can tell you, like, yeah, that's not really going to work out. But like, if it's working out, like, you're not going to stop doing it.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  A lot of these lessons have to be learned the hard way, I think.

• 1:17:40Rich Roll?

  I don't know why that is, but it definitely is the case. You mentioned earlier, in this sort of, you know, Dark Night of the Soul, and you're walking around Glasgow or Edinburgh, you know, this epiphany or this realization that you had, you know, more to give to the sport. And I think you could define that narrowly to mean that, like, I have wins in me that are yet to be unlocked. But I think there's a broader definition that is slowly kind of like unfolding in all of this that gets to like, a bigger why. Like, the why can't just be like, I want to win an Olympic gold medal. It has to be something more than that.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  Winning alone doesn't really carry value. It's, it doesn't carry the subjective value in the context of your life. It's subjective. Like, mountain biking is this very small microcosm of the world that most people who are listening to this podcast probably don't spend a lot of their time thinking about. I spend all my time thinking about it.

• 1:18:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  And it's because I love it and I care about it. And that's where the meaning comes from. And

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  I feel that I had this realization that it's not just achieving the goal in this next chapter of my career, it's the way that I'm going about it. And I want to be able to fully express myself in every aspect of what I'm doing in pursuit of something. And to acknowledge that that's kind of the point is to be all in, is to take the risk, make the gamble because you love something and you want to see what might be possible.

• 1:19:24Rich Roll?

  In this evolution that you're in right now, though, there's also a service piece, like a giving back piece. I guess that's what I'm getting at in terms of like the why. It's sort of like, yes, and like a way to really kind of root yourself in this mission-based perspective, you know, way of like pursuing excellence in your sport.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  I found in this last period that one of the things that was most gratifying to me was connecting with young female riders. When I started in this sport, and I think a huge part of my desire to get on the top of the podium in that early phase of my career was that I didn't see a lot of other American women my age doing that. The next kind of role model for me, Leah Davidson, was 10 years older and she was on podiums and she inspired me to want to do that. But there wasn't that clear link and there wasn't that clear path. And I think honestly, Americans were underestimated. And so that was, that

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  was part of wanting to like get on that podium. And what made that meaningful was seeing not just what that win, but what this sport can do for other women and for aspiring, not just racers, but riders. And so I was kind of having this experience where I'd go to the races and I'd be 10th and I'd kind of be disappointed and it wouldn't be that much fun. And then I'd go home and I'd ride with these girls and They would be lit up being on their bikes and they would, you know, be overcoming challenges, trying a new rock garden, doing a bigger hill and just like talking about

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  life. And it felt so silly to see the disconnect of like how I was feeling on my bike and like what, what you're meant to feel in like striving to be better in this thing that's really fun. Um, and that disconnect started to really bother me that like they, they didn't care whether I was 10th or 15th or I was fifth. They're like, great, that's cool. Hey, how do you do this? Like, you know, how do you go over a?

• 1:21:34Rich Roll?

  How refreshing though.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  It was refreshing. And so I ended up starting a foundation in 2023, the She Sends Foundation. And we primarily support grassroots organizations that get more girls on bikes and hopefully create a bit more community around getting more women on bikes and making the sport more accessible and inviting for women everywhere. So that's been a really gratifying project to work on. And I think it fills this bigger meaning for me. It's not just about getting more people on bikes. It's about inspiring women in particular to like send it and take risks and go after things. And the bike just happens to be a really beautiful

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  vehicle to not just communicate those lessons, but to like experiencing, experience them and learn them and feel them for yourself.

• 1:22:24Rich Roll?

  So for the non cyclist people out there, when you say send it or she sends, like, what does that mean? What does that mean?

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  Send is a term. It's common in mountain biking and in rock climbing and skiing. Um, and it basically refers to that kind of go for it moment. I always think about, you know, it's if I'm on, if I'm on a course and I go and there's a jump and I look at the jump and I think, okay, I think I can do it. And I go back up to the top of the hill and you're sitting there thinking, okay, I have to let go of the brakes. Like the moment that you let go of the brakes and you go and you begin to pick up speed and you commit to doing this thing that's scary and hard, but you think you can do, that is sending

• 1:23:08Rich Roll?

  As you get older, is that relationship with fear, has that like changed at all? Cause like, you have to be so fearless. Like when you're bombing down these trails and there's roots and rocks and like, I mean, like you could, like people like get, they die, they have, you know, head injury, like all kinds of crazy shit can happen. And kind of as you get older, you're like, maybe a little bit of breaks here, you know, it gets harder to like fully send it, doesn't it? Or are you able to like, just fully send it every time?

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  I think you get more skill and then the skill helps you to mitigate the risks. So for me, having really good skills coaches and being able to understand where my limits are, actually takes out a lot of that feeling on my bike. But I think the bigger challenge for me was sending it in my career overall. So having this desire to keep racing and this desire to see what's possible and to give everything I have, not just on the race course, but also back to my community, back to the sport and changing the opportunities that women will have in the future in the sport. That is more of an emotional risk than a physical risk.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  And that is what I think with age, I end up focusing more on.

• 1:24:25Rich Roll?

  It's like a meta thing, right? Like, yeah, you have to send it on the bike, but like, how are, you know, how are you, you know, Kate, like actually sending it like at the highest level? And that requires like, getting really honest with yourself about like, what is this career that I'm in? Like, why is it, you know, have to operate within this kind of like strict paradigm? What would a different version of being a professional athlete in this sport look like? And like imagining, you know, what doesn't exist yet and like sending it in order to create a scenario that suits your life and your goals and your why? Which is really cool. Like it's ambitious, this thing that you've done, because not only

• 1:25:07Rich Roll?

  did you create this foundation, you've reimagined like, you know, how

• 1:25:15Rich Roll?

  Somebody in your position could pursue their career as a professional. So I'm kind of inching you up towards like telling me about this newest chapter informing. I mean, it's a team of one right now, but I imagine like you, you are seeing this will grow into more than just you at some point, but somebody who's been a professional athlete for 10 years and done it kind of in the traditional way, you get, you got, you have sponsors and you're on a team, et cetera. You're kind of treading unchartered territory now.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this year I will be racing with that foundation as the title of my team. So she sends racing and I'll be wearing a jersey to start the year that has that foundation front and center. And then we'll have the logos of partners that are personally supporting me. And that's a big jump in my discipline. I think it's more common in trap on and actually being friends with Chelsea Sodaro has helped me understand like how you can make a more privateer program work. But I think applying that to the World Cup circuit is, is just logistically difficult and has some inherent challenges and also not to mention the kind

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  of like mental challenge of being the captain of your own ship and having to make these decisions and ultimately being accountable for the things that go well and the things that don't go well. So that's been a big, kind of more entrepreneurial journey for me this year that has added a lot of layers to my everyday life outside of the training and racing.

• 1:26:51Rich Roll?

  So basically in your sport, every, every athlete is a member of a team in order to compete on this World Cup circuit. Is that right? And so for you to say like, I'm not, I'm, I have been on a team for a very long time. I'm no longer going to be on any of these teams and I'm going to create my own team and that team is me. Right? Is that?

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:27:16Rich Roll?

  I'm trying to understand like why this is such a departure.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the rules have changed slightly in the last year, and I think it opened up this window of opportunity. Essentially before to compete in a World Cup, typically you've been on what we call a factory team. So usually sponsored primarily by a bike brand and that's kind of your main sponsor. And they provide not only like your salary, but they provide your support. So your bikes, your support at races and you kind of operate as a team. The rule change was that if you are in the top 100 of world rankings, you can enter any World Cup kind of independently through your federation.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  And so that opened up this opportunity to not necessarily race under the umbrella of a team, but to race for my own team. And it's kind of the difference between having a job at a company and kind of starting a company. Right. It's, it's that kind of transition. And I, I do think it will be kind of more popular in the coming years. I think it's, it's something that suits a certain type of athlete. And I think I've had to learn a lot about myself and about what environment works for me and about what I need to both chase my high performance goals at the top level, but also to feel this purpose and connection and meaning really, really tied to everything I do.

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  And this structure has really allowed me to do that.

• 1:28:43Rich Roll?

  You live in Silicon Valley. Your husband is an entrepreneur. You, you literally live like in the area where Steve Jobs used to live. So this is thinking different, right? It's sort of in the, it's in the air. It's in the ethos of, you know, this place that you call home. So it's not surprising that you're like bringing a kind of, you know, first principles thinking to this rule change and figuring out how you could do something different in that. And I think it's, I think it's exciting. You know, I would imagine with that rule change, most athletes would be like, yep, well, I can, I can, you know, enter as an individual, but like, why would I not be part of one of these factory teams? There's safety in that. I have support, et cetera.

• 1:29:23Rich Roll?

  And for you to say, well, I'll create my own support system with the partners that I want to work with.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think I resisted the idea for a while. The seed was kind of planted.

• 1:29:36Rich Roll?

  I would imagine it probably ended up being a lot more work than you thought it was going to be.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  Oh, completely. And I think I actually knew that it would be that way. So I really resisted it for a while and I just couldn't shake the idea. And the idea was about more than just. You know, having different logos on my jersey or riding a different bike or, you know, getting to hire my own mechanic. Like it was, it was about testing this hypothesis that I will be a better athlete if I bring my full self, full multi-dimensional self to the sport. And that, I think for me, the idea of building something that was really

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  mission-driven, where at its core, the values that I want to bring to the sport are at the heart of everything we do. That was a really compelling idea for me. And when I started to kind of explore it, I started to connect with brands and companies and people that really shared that mission and that really shared those values. And once I started to have those conversations, it was almost like I couldn't not do it.

• 1:30:47Rich Roll?

  At the same time, the UCI isn't exactly known for being open-minded. A lot of, you know, like, there's, you know, there's, the stories are legend, at least in road cycling, about like, you know, kind of the traditionalism of this sport and their resistance to kind of evolution. And this is an evolution that you're presenting. Like, how is this being received by the UCI? Like, is there sort of a like, hey, not so fast? Or, or is there like, hey, this is awesome. You know, this is great. We can't, we can't wait to see what you're going to do with this.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  I may have to answer that question after the first few World Cups, but I think so far, it's been really supportive. And my goal is to bring more attention and more support to mountain biking as a whole. So hopefully, we're kind of pulling on the same string there. And at a minimum.

• 1:31:35Rich Roll?

  That's sort of like, I dare you to poo-poo this, when I'm trying to like, bring more people into the sport.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and ultimately, my goal was to create a race environment where I am given the best chance to produce my Best performances, but to do so in service of this larger mission and this larger purpose of getting more girls on bikes and bringing more people into the sport and inspiring more people through what is possible in the sport. And that is at the core. Every single brand that I am partnered with signed on because they were excited about that mission and is supporting it in some big fundamental way. And that just feels really different.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  And I think, you know, when I thought about what I wanted this next chapter to feel like, one of the things I came back to was I want to feel good on the start line. I don't want to just feel good on the finish line, depending on how it goes. I want to feel good on the start line. And when I pull up to the first World Cup and I'm on a bike with a brand that I work super closely with, and it's a custom paint job that you can buy and a portion goes to getting more girls on bikes. When I'm wearing a jersey where every brand on that jersey, I've spoken to the CEO of the company and they share my values and they have created companies and products that are trying to make the world better

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  and serving their own missions that that really align with mine. Like, that is something that I think will feel just as good as any win in my career.

• 1:33:14Rich Roll?

  Well, we can get specific about that. I mean, you mentioned kind of factory bikes. We all know the huge bike brands that are out there and you're now working with a company called Allied. It's an independent, smaller bicycle company. Is that what you call it?

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:32Rich Roll?

  In Arkansas that that, correct me if I'm wrong, is owned, or at least, you know, there's a majority stake owned by Stu and Tom Walton of the Walmart family. And those guys, you know, together are responsible for, you know, so much in the cycling and mountain biking community alone because of their enthusiasm for the sport and the money that they've, you know, put into kind of evangelizing it and democratizing access to it.

• 1:34:08Speaker 01

  Allied is a new brand that I'll be working with this year and they're relatively young in the in the cycling world, but they make an incredible product and it's one that I had the chance to ride before committing to work with the brand. And the bike was, obviously, it's my tool. It's a huge part of how I made that decision. But I think what you mentioned about the larger ethos of the company and what the Waltons are helping to create in Bentonville is something I was really excited about because ultimately, they are getting more people on bikes and they're getting more people out and not just racers, but young kids, families. They're creating a lower barrier to access for the sport that I think can really change people's lives. And that's

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  something really exciting to be a part of. And I think we will be able to grow together in the coming years.

• 1:35:01Rich Roll?

  And you recently announced this partnership with Rivian, which is super exciting, right? RJ's the best. We just had him on the podcast. And super into mountain bike riding.

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have to credit RJ. I don't think I would be pursuing this new team structure without him. Very early on in the process, I started reaching out to people for help and advice and I ended up connecting with him. And he was able to get on the phone with me, which was, which was really a great opportunity. And I started to ask him, you know, I understand what the value proposition is for a brand like Allied. I ride their bike. I'm an American racer who brings an American brand to the World Cup. You post photos of it. The deliverables are very clear. It's, it's a more traditional relationship. But how could I add value to non-endemic companies like Rivian? And it's a slightly

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  different proposition. And I wanted to understand, like, what would make a professional athlete valuable to your brand? And he made this distinction right away, that a lot of companies in the more endemic space are marketing based on product. It's about the product being superior and the evolution of the bike and the evolution of the equipment. And that is super valuable. And as a racer, I know how to tell that story. But what a brand like Rivian is focused on. Is really aligning with people and events and things that communicate their

• 1:36:38Speaker 01

  values and this vision and kind of bigger brand ethos. And that is what connects to mountain biking. So Rivian wants to empower people's adventures. They want to get people out. They want to inspire people to do more and go more places. And that is the storyline that as an athlete, the deliverables look different, the relationship looks different. But that is where there's alignment and where these brand partnerships can not just be really fun and interesting and cool. And obviously, it's a dream brand to work with and a dream car to drive, but where they have depth because there's an alignment of vision and values that we can co-communicate.

• 1:37:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, spoken like an entrepreneur also, right? You know what I mean? It's so I'm listening to you and I'm like, this is all like exactly right. Like you understand like brand and storytelling and, and like narrative. Like when I think about Rivian, it's like you're, you're the embodiment of this ethos that they're trying to kind of explain, you know, to the public, like this is what we're about. These are what our values are. This person sort of represents that. But the idea that in 2025, like, can you just be a professional athlete who goes out and does your thing? Or do you have to be like an expert in like

• 1:38:02Rich Roll?

  marketing and brand relations? Like you kind of do, right? Like it is a different world where you have to think about these things and you have to care about them. And I loved the approach that you took with RJ because it wasn't like, hey, you know, hey, I need a sponsor, you know, I'm trying to create this thing. It's like, and it wasn't even like, here's what I can do for you. It was like, Like, I don't even know if there is something I could do for you. Like, like, your approach is like, how could I serve you? Like, before we even talk about this, like, is there a way for me to serve you? I'm not even sure I understand what that might be. Like, is a mindset shift of like, service? Like, it's not about what you could get from some, you know, multi-billion dollar

• 1:38:47Rich Roll?

  brand. It's you thinking about like, how would a relationship work in which I could provide value to them?

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  It's interesting because I actually hadn't even, I mean, obviously Rivian would always be a dream partner, but I-

• 1:39:01Rich Roll?

  Of course, any athlete would love to be associated with a brand like that.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  But that conversation happened in that phase where I was still exploring and trying to understand, would this work? Could I do this? How would I do this? What, what would this look like? And, and how could I create something that doesn't just, you know, serve my athletic goals or raise money for my foundation? Of course, there's other ways to do that. But that would create something of value to all these different parties. And that's getting an economic structure right. That's getting these partnerships right, the marketing strategy right. And I didn't have enough information to really know where those limits were. And I, I truly called RJ for advice and a little bit of a litmus test of like, do you

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  think this would maybe be worth thinking about? And in that conversation, he gave me that advice and told me that Rivian would be, you know, exploring being one of the first partners. And that conversation alone, like, really shifted my view of, okay, I think there's something here that's worth pursuing. And when you say, you know, can you not just be an athlete anymore? I actually think you can. I think there's many, many ways to structure your life and structure your career. And not every athlete is going to want to do what I'm doing.

• 1:40:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  It requires a lot of work. There are trade offs. And for some athletes, this would be like the worst version of their athletic career. They're distracted and it's stressful. But for me- What we're talking about and what I felt on that call is like this curiosity, this excitement, this opening of possibility, this intellectual challenge of understanding how these pieces move together and how I could be a meaningful and valuable role within it. That is, I believe, part of what was missing in this narrowing of my athletic career is that I actually, I need these pursuits and this excitement and this fuel

• 1:41:05Speaker 01

  outside of riding to be able to be my best on the bike.

• 1:41:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, also, I feel you kind of getting animated talking about this. So it's like you obviously like are like, this is interesting and exciting for you to like have these types of conversations. But I also think it's, you know, on the subject of mindset shifts, like in the traditional paradigm of, you know, athlete working with brand, it is a narrow kind of relationship in which, you know, your monetization is tied to like, what races are you going to? And what do you, and you have to get on these podiums. And when you're on the podium, you wear this piece of apparel or whatever it is. Whereas someone like Rivian, this represents like a broader perspective on, you know, how an athlete can be an ambassador

• 1:41:52Rich Roll?

  for a brand and create a career that still, you know, you still have to perform, but it's not really about like whether you win or lose. It's about like this message that you're carrying that other people care about. And I think most people who follow you on social media aren't doing it because of your specific race performances. It's because you have a certain energy and an enthusiasm for this sport and getting outdoors. And, and there's a, you know, an inclusivity to the whole thing that makes people feel good and energized around their own relationship with, you know, fitness and nature, et cetera. And that has,

• 1:42:33Rich Roll?

  you know, longevity beyond like, you know, your professional racing career.

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  To me, that really gets at the value of sport in general is to be able to communicate these experiences, these learnings, this journey that we're on as athletes and make it useful to other people and use it to connect with other people. And I feel much closer to that now in this new structure where

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  There's kind of, there's transparency. Like, it's just me. It's really...

• 1:43:07Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that. Like, when you first announced it, I was, I was, I'll admit, I was like casually, I saw that, but I didn't like get into the details of it. And I was like, oh, she started a team. So I, and then whenever you show these videos and images, like, you're always riding with a bunch of other people. So I, I just thought like, oh, that's so cool. She has a whole team now that, you know, she's in charge of.

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  It's interesting. I, I call it a team, though it is just me racing, because it requires a team. Mountain biking is a team sport. I have a full-time mechanic. I have a coach. I have a strength coach. I have a mental coach. I have a physio, right? Like, there's all of these people that are very, very skilled, some of the best in the world at what they do. And the skill that I bring is racing the bike. But the race is really the culmination of like that whole body of work and the work of that entire team making it possible. And so for me, even though I will be the only athlete on the start line, it does feel like a team.

• 1:44:08Rich Roll?

  And you get to have all those people yourself, though.

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  Well, some of them I share.

• 1:44:13Rich Roll?

  No, it's great. Cause I'm just like a Matt, you know, like you, you watch a Tour de France, they have these huge buses, and you see the staff and the team and all of that, but they're serving like, you know, I don't know, like, you know, 20, 30 guys.

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  I mean, there's some, there's gonna be some scrappy moments. I think my mom is moonlighting to cook for a few races and come be an extra set of hands. But it, it will be a much more simplified setup. SRAM will be providing all my World Cup support, so I have some great brands like helping make sure that I have what I need on the ground. But actually, for me, I think having a more simplified performance environment helps me feel more calm and to be a bit more in control. And that helps me race better.

• 1:44:57Rich Roll?

  Sure. We mentioned earlier that we first met in, in Zurich. And the reason I was in Zurich was I was going to visit the, the On Labs headquarters for the first time. And that, you know, was kind of the beginning of my relationship with this extraordinary brand. But like, From what I hear, I think you are part of the ON team now?

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  We're teammates now.

• 1:45:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. At the moment of this recording, I don't think it's been made public.

• 1:45:24Speaker 01

  I think it's in process, but I think we'll make sure it's done by then.

• 1:45:28Rich Roll?

  Which is pretty exciting.

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  It's really exciting. They, ON is a dream brand to work with and they really fit into this mission-driven kind of category of brands. I find, when I think about it, there's a lot of ways to make a shoe or make a car or make a bike. And there's definitely easier routes than the way that they specifically are pursuing their high-performance shoes and apparel. But the reason they're doing it that way is because of these values that underlie everything the brand stands for. It's this emphasis on performance. It's this like real commitment to environmental sustainability. And it's this view of like how we should be doing things

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  that again, is so in line with the way that I want to approach my racing career. It's not just like the product you produce or the race you win. It's really what you bring to that process and how close you can stay to those core values as you are pursuing it.

• 1:46:31Rich Roll?

  And the community piece.

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  And the community piece. Yeah.

• 1:46:34Rich Roll?

  Which is sort of like what the whole, part of what the whole Softwinds campaign is now. You know what I mean?

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:41Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, I absolutely love working with them. I feel so privileged to be working with a company that is, you know, really innovating. Like when I visited their headquarters, I don't know what I expected, because I've never visited like a, you know, an apparel or a, you know, running shoe company headquarters before, but it felt like, I mean, there was so much energy, so much youthful energy, so much enthusiasm. And they're always like, you know, like trying new things all the time. It felt, it felt like more like a technology company. I mean, I know they call it an innovation company, but it's like, you know, that was the vibe more than like, oh, we make running shoes and gear. It was like,

• 1:47:27Rich Roll?

  what if we reimagine this whole thing? What would that look like?

• 1:47:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a building you just wanted to spend time in because it had this energy that made you feel more was possible and made you want to try, try to do more and be more and discover more and experience more. And I think that's That's something that speaks to the brand as a whole, but also the people that were in that building.

• 1:47:50Rich Roll?

  And now, well, you also have Momentous, you've got like, and you work with Rafa also. Like you've got, you've got a lot, you have like a lot of like incredible brands that you're working with. And I, the idea that you're like thinking about them and how they all fit in and how do we, you know, how, how do all the values kind of like overlap to create this thing? It's not just about like LA 28 or this season's World Cup series. It's about how do I create something that is sustainable with lasting power, that is elastic, that can like grow. And with the foundation piece, like work to bring more people into the sport that I love. And I feel like that's a, that's a real like fuel

• 1:48:31Rich Roll?

  source that will, you know, power you to great heights, but also, you know, kind of nourish you in the moments when maybe you didn't perform quite as well as you wish you had.

• 1:48:42Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I think having that as a big focus helps free me up to just race because I love racing. And the structure you just talked about, it's interesting. We haven't talked much about social media, but obviously that's a big part of my job as an athlete. It's a big part of being kind of in the public eye these days and of working with brands. And I think through the course of that, we've kind of talked about my trajectory and the Olympic period. And in the last 10 years, like the rise of influencer marketing and kind of the way that we tell stories and work with brands and what the actual job of a professional athlete looks like has changed dramatically at all these different

• 1:49:27Speaker 01

  junctures. And at times it's felt really good. And at times it's felt really challenging for me to like find meaning in, you know, is it about what you're posting? Is it just selling products? Is it, am I just posting about race results? Like where does this fit in? And how can this be constructive? And is it constructive at all? And I landed at one point with this perspective of there's primary work and secondary work. And social media is secondary work for me. It's how I document the primary work. So if the primary work is racing my bike, it's telling the story of racing my bike. And I think at its best, Everything is like that, right?

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  It's you write the book and then social media reflects that you wrote the book. But social media was not the end goal. And I feel really liberated in this period to create primary work with each of these brands. So it's not just, okay, post this thing. It's could we do something interesting and fun and values aligned that furthers all of our goals, right? And that, you know, helps make the world a little bit better. And then you can reflect that on social media, whether it's like leading a huge event and getting more girls on bikes, or whether it's creating a custom line of something that benefits the foundation, or even just being involved with an exciting product launch.

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  Like those partnerships become this primary work and there's depth to them in a way that makes it really fun and exciting. And I think people can can feel that. They can feel the authenticity and the realness of those relationships and that, you know, it's not just this kind of made for TV experience of telling a brand's story.

• 1:51:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, I think that's really cool. And I guess I wonder, like with LA 28 on the horizon, like by the time that descends on this city, like where do you see she sends? Like, what does it look like at that point? Like, what is the evolution from where it is now at its, you know, kind of inception to where you want it to be in three years, five years, 10 years from now?

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  It's a good question. And of course, as an athlete in an Olympic sport, the Olympics coming to LA is is a huge target. It's a date on the calendar. But when I reflected on what would make that goal worth pursuing, I really thought about this four-year period of my career and the kind of legacy piece that I wanted to leave. And I feel we've talked a lot about the Olympics. It's not all that I focus on, but it is a really beautiful way to kind of separate out these four-year periods. And I think they affect us a lot as athletes in how we're preparing for things. And

• 1:52:28Speaker 01

  When I, when I think about the goal in these next four years, I think about what I want it to feel like to be there and look back and see that journey generated a lot of value, not just for me as a person and having the opportunity to pursue my goal, but that it, it affected the sport. It impacted the opportunities for women in the sport. It brought more young girls into the sport and ultimately like inspired people to just go for it. And I think for me, the biggest, scariest goal is like, starting my own team, setting this four-year horizon where there's complete uncertainty. Like,

• 1:53:13Speaker 01

  I am just starting to think, okay, I think this, I have enough money to like go to the races and everything's going to work out and I'm, it feels really good and I'm excited. But it was a huge uncertainty, even in the last six months of whether I could put this team together. That's not to mention trying to race against the best in the world. So there's a fair amount of uncertainty in this. But if I go to these programs and if I ride with these young girls through She sends and I tell them, if you have a dream, you gotta go for it and you gotta commit and take risk and you don't know what's possible, I have to be willing to live that.

• 1:53:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  And this four-year journey, that's me living it. That's me going for it. And it's, it's that old Zen in the art of motorcycle maintenance quote of like, it's not the top of the mountain that sustains life, it's the sides. It's really the act of going all in that matters.

• 1:54:09Rich Roll?

  When you get on your bike to train these days, do you feel like a renewed vigor?

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

  I definitely feel a renewed vigor. I think what's interesting for me is that I feel a renewed kind of focus and edge. And it reminds me a lot of the way that I felt when I was a full-time student and I would, you know, rush from this class and I'd jump on my bike and nothing would be perfect. Right? I didn't have time to do two or three things and I just got, I just gotta get moving because I got a limited window. And the feeling of focus and like determination that comes from doing it anyway and just being all in on that moment.

• 1:54:51Speaker 01

  Is something that I think I almost need a little bit more chaos in my life to lock into that feeling. And I've definitely been feeling that more on my bike.

• 1:55:00Rich Roll?

  So what do you say to the person who's looking for something to go all in on, but doesn't quite know what that is?

• 1:55:07Speaker 01

  It's a really good question. I think it's about listening to that curiosity and excitement. And I think you just follow it. You just follow the little breadcrumbs of that feeling and, and be willing to take a little risk when you need to, to find out what you're capable of.

• 1:55:33Rich Roll?

  It can't be manufactured and it can't be faked, right? Like, but you also can't just wait to be struck with it. Like, I think those things are revealed through doing things. And to your point, like, being willing to explore your curiosities. And I think the modern world has a way of like eroding our relationship with our own curiosity because we're told we need to do these things, or this is what success looks like, or the path that you should be on. And curiosities are an indulgence, or something that we kind of like repress or quash, rather than kind of move towards.

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  It feels like there's a lot of focus on what we get out of things right now, which is important. I mean, I would not be sitting here if things hadn't, if the pendulum of luck hadn't kind of swung in the right direction at certain races in my career, right? So I'm not saying that accomplishments and what you get out of things doesn't matter at all. Like, I live in reality. But I find that a better compass is what you can give to things. And I'll tell you a little story and this now I've related everything back to the Olympics, which, you know, I guess these pivotal moments, they really make an impact and you learn from them. But I always thought like from when I was a little kid, that if I went to the Olympics,

• 1:56:54Speaker 01

  I'd go get the Olympic tattoo. Right? That's like the sexy focus thing. So I go, I don't have this great experience. I obviously do not get the tattoo.

• 1:57:04Rich Roll?

  You don't want to look at it and be reminded of.

• 1:57:06Speaker 01

  Completely. And then I don't make the Paris team, which we didn't really get to. But yeah, I was ranked, you know, 10th in the world and actually had a really good season. But the other two Americans were top three at the first two World Cups and they just absolutely crushed it and they earned those spots. And so I'm like sitting at home. And during this period, I went and visited my brother and we ended up going and we got matching tattoos. And I'll tell you what we got. It's very small. You don't know where it is, but it's it's on my ribs. And I ended up getting the words, give them hell tattooed on my ribs.

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  And there's a good story as to why. So my grandpa, growing up, every time I did anything in my life, he would tell me, give them hell. And that was his like mantra to us was just like, give everything you've got in what you do. And he sent me videos before a bunch of hard races where he said that message and it really impacted me because it's about being willing to meet yourself in every moment and give what you've got. And I think, you know, early on, maybe the Olympics, maybe pursuing racing was about getting the flashy tattoo and having the accomplishment and being able to say like, here, look what I did.

• 1:58:31Speaker 01

  And here's what I got for it. But I think for me now, the question I ask is like, what can I give? And how far am I willing to go to exhaust that potential and to give everything I have while I still have the opportunity to give it?

• 1:58:50Rich Roll?

  It's service. It's like, what am I giving? Not what am I, what am I extracting from this?

• 1:58:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think when you're looking for. What will fill your cup? And what will be a worthy pursuit over a long period of time? I think it's a lot about what? What thing are you doing where you're giving everything? And in that moment, you're enjoying it. Right? Like the deep engagement with the activity, whether it's like giving back to the community, whether it's giving everything in an interval on your bike, like where that act is so illuminating that at the end you have gotten something.

• 1:59:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:33Speaker 01

  It's a byproduct.

• 1:59:33Rich Roll?

  It's also, you know, kind of this weird thing again, where you might trip yourself up because it's like, give them hell. Like, give it, give it everything you've got. Like, that pushes all the buttons of the like, you know, I'm gonna overtrain and I'm gonna like, you know, live in a cabin and be like, if I, if I'm gonna give them hell, then here's what I need in order to do that. But it's an ex, you're coming at this like more mature, more expansive, like to give it all you've got, like requires that holistic piece where you are making room for going on bike rides with all of these, you know, women and girls that you're trying to get, you know, into the sport and you're working with these, like you're doing, your life is much bigger now, right?

• 2:00:17Rich Roll?

  Like, giving it all you've got means serving all of these different things, all of these value buckets that, you know, allow you to sustain your athletic career, but give your life meaning.

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  It goes back to maybe what we talked about with the coaching evolution where at the beginning, yeah, maybe it's about giving them hell. And then you kind of have this period in the middle where things become more complex and you learn that there's actually a lot more to that. There's a lot more chutes and ladders in the activity of giving everything you've got than you can see from the beginning. But I think when you come back to it, like, that is still true. That still holds water, that like giving everything is part of what makes a pursuit worthwhile and a worthy use of your time.

• 2:01:10Speaker 01

  But now I think I have a bit more nuance and maybe a bigger kind of landscape with which to apply that mindset.

• 2:01:17Rich Roll?

  You mentioned legacy earlier, like what is, if you had to define like your, your, your gravestone, or like, what does your epitaph say? Like, what is it? Like, what is the higher purpose distilled down to a single thought?

• 2:01:32Speaker 01

  No pressure.

• 2:01:35Speaker 01

  I don't know that I put send it on my gravestone, but um, maybe something along those lines that really, like she went for it. Like she

• 2:01:48Speaker 01

  like held nothing back in going after what was important. And maybe that's what evolves most as an athlete over time and just as a person as you age, as you start to get a more textured view of what's important. It's not just this result, or it's really people. It's how you spend your time. It's what you give back, the community that you surround yourself with. It's all of these ties that kind of bind us all together that really are important and matter.

• 2:02:19Speaker 01

  But I think at the end of the day, the best way to honor that view of the world is to go all in on those things that matter.

• 2:02:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. She really sent it.

• 2:02:33Speaker 01

  She really sent it.

• 2:02:34Rich Roll?

  You know, it's funny, like, like send it is basically like the 2025, yeah, bro. Version of your grandfather's phrase, like give him hell. It's the same thing, basically.

• 2:02:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe I'll put give him hell on the tombstone. That would be a surprise. I think I'm, I'm a pretty straight edge person in general. So I think that was also, it's a bit of a surprise, but

• 2:02:57Speaker 01

  yeah, I think, I think my grandpa was on to something there and he had a very good, long life and imparted a lot of wisdom and lessons to his grandchildren. So.

• 2:03:09Rich Roll?

  Well, you have imparted a lot of lessons and wisdom today. I adore you. I'm such a fan of everything that you're doing and I can't wait to see how this all unfolds. So I'm very excited for you and I appreciate you coming here today. What's the next race? Like, what does the calendar look like in the near future?

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  Well, first, thank you so much. It's really an honor to get to sit down and spend this much time with you. The next race, I have a US Cup and then the World Cup will start in April. So the first World Cup's in Brazil and that will be kind of the first big reveal of the new Team Kid and my first opportunity to send it.

• 2:03:50Rich Roll?

  What is the color scheme of the bike?

• 2:03:53Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 2:03:54Rich Roll?

  Or are you have, is that like a big secret? Like, you're brilliant at how you kind of drip out these like things on social media. Like, you don't just make one big announcement. Like, these are all like staged.

• 2:04:04Speaker 01

  Well, it might take longer to get kits and bikes painted than people expect. So there's some art to it. But yeah, it'll be, it'll be a purple sparkle galaxy vibe. So we're having fun with it.

• 2:04:16Rich Roll?

  Wow, okay. All right, cool. And when's the next training camp with Chelsea Sodaro?

• 2:04:21Speaker 01

  Oh, hopefully soon. Yeah, we're gonna have to get out.

• 2:04:25Rich Roll?

  That's a whole thing. You guys could do like retreats. You would have so many people who would want to join you.

• 2:04:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been a really amazing friendship and I think there's a lot of value in spending time and talking with people that share such a big part of your identity and can help shed light from a different direction, which you do as well.

• 2:04:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool. Well, come back anytime.

• 2:04:47Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:04:47Rich Roll?

  This was really delightful. I appreciate it. Cheers.

• 2:04:50Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:04:50Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 2:05:05Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you You can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at mealplaner.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be

• 2:05:50Rich Roll?

  possible without the help of our amazing sponsors, who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the Meal Planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shanice Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music was created, all the way back in 2012, by

• 2:06:34Rich Roll?

  Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.