#2408 - Bret Weinstein

Bret Weinstein, PhD, is an evolutionary biologist, author, and co-host of “The DarkHorse Podcast” with his wife, biologist Heather Heying. They are the co-authors of “A Hunter-Gatherer’s Guide to the 21st Century: Evolution and the Challenges of Modern Life.”www.bretweinstein.netwww.youtube.com/@DarkHorsePodwww.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/618153/a-hunter-gatherers-guide-to-the-21st-century-by-heather-heying-and-bret-weinstein/ Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Buy 1 Get 1 Free Trucker Hat with code ROGAN at https://happydad.com Visit https://tractorsupply.com/hometownheroes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Dream by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Hello Brett, good to see you my friend.

• 0:13Speaker 03

  Joe, always so great to see you brother.

• 0:16Joe Rogan?

  Um, so I was telling you before we get started that I had the most bizarre dream I've ever had in my life last night, the most realistic and most bizarre dream. And it's so hard to try to explain how strange this was, but I was in some weird corridor that looked like a building but was odd, very strange. And I was encountering these beings that looked like people but very different. They were very thin and they were slightly on the tall side. And they had big heads, like larger than normal with larger than normal eyes, but

• 1:01Joe Rogan?

  they looked like people and they were playful and they were scaring me, they like they scared me and then they joked around, like we're just joking around. It was the most realistic dream I've ever had in my life.

• 1:14Joe Rogan?

  And I woke up and I could not go back to, I had to stay up. I got up at 3:30 in the morning and I just went to the gym and I worked out for a couple hours and I was like, what the fuck was that? But it was, it was very bizarre in that there was communication going on. It was, uh, it was like, God, I want to read into this because I know it's just a dream, but it was like, get comfortable with this.

• 1:47Speaker 03

  You should read into it because it's a dream. So it doesn't make it right, but your subconscious is trying to tell you about something and the fact that it felt very, very important means your subconscious thinks it's very, very important.

• 2:01Joe Rogan?

  I woke up, I mean, I was tired, man. When I went to bed, I was tired. I was falling asleep, watching TV. I went to bed at like... Ten thirty, eleven o'clock at night, like, beat down. I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna get some sleep. It's had a long week, lot of activities, workouts, this, that, the other. Tired. Three thirty in the morning, after whatever this was, woke me up so much that I just laid in bed for like another hour. And I was like, there is no way I'm going to sleep. I'm, I'm up forever. And then I just went and worked out. I worked out and I was hoping I would be exhausted after I worked out and I'd be able to relax. But it was like a couple hours after that, that I sat, laid down and I took a nap for an hour before I came here.

• 2:46Speaker 03

  Question for ya.

• 2:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48Speaker 03

  Did you see a video, I think it was yesterday, maybe it was the day before, of some Chinese robots that seemed to be across on our side of the uncanny valley, that they walk with a gait that feels very human?

• 3:06Joe Rogan?

  No, I haven't seen that. Is that the latest?

• 3:09Speaker 03

  I don't know. I've seen it a few times in the last couple of days. It sort of sounded to me like your dream might have been responsive, you know?

• 3:16Joe Rogan?

  These things felt very organic. Whatever this was, it felt like living, organic beings that were like us. There was also a water element. It was hard, it was hard to understand what the water element of it was. But there was some sort of an indication that there was water and that there was a protection from you going out into the water. But if you did go out in the water, there's a bunch of predators in the water. But they weren't like, it wasn't like sharks, it was reptile, like crocodile type things that were in the water. And that they were, they had been like feeding them and keeping them calm and like keeping them away. But whatever these beings were in my dream, they were like...

• 4:04Joe Rogan?

  Like what humans could eventually be. That's what it felt like. It didn't feel like a person, but if like, you know, like I don't feel like a monkey, you know what I mean?

• 4:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:14Joe Rogan?

  But it was like that. It was very, very realistic. Like there was communication going on. And I was really freaked out and they were fucking with me to lighten me up because I was freaked out. They're like, ah, ah. And then they were like, like this, like calm down, like relax. It was so realistic. It was so realistic that when it was over, I wasn't sure what happened. Like it wasn't like, whoa, what a fucked up dream. It was like, that was different. That was a different one.

• 4:46Speaker 03

  Well, I want to explore a couple of things here. I think dreams are very interesting.

• 4:52Joe Rogan?

  What do you think dreams are? Let's just get to, let's start with that.

• 4:55Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 4:55Joe Rogan?

  What do you think's going on?

• 4:59Speaker 03

  Think about the way your mind works at the level that you understand yourself, right? Your conscious mind is capable of taking an input from your eyes, computing what the dimensions of the room basically are, where the objects are, whether there's a threat somewhere. You know, if you've got something that's of a particular focus, you point the fovea of your eye at it and you get a whole lot higher resolution image. That architecture, you know how crypto made graphics card manufacturers the most important industry all of a sudden?

• 5:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I wasn't aware of that.

• 5:38Speaker 03

  Oh, well, so the reason Nvidia is the company that it is, I mean, never mind that there's, you know, likely overvaluation, but the reason that it's ahead of Apple in terms of, you know, its market cap and all is that. The dedicated compute power necessary to make compelling visual renderings, to make video on the fly for video games, which was their their stock in trade, that kind of compute turns out to be very closely related to what you want if you want to solve these very difficult math problems involved in crypto. So it was a sort of, I think it was a surprise to everybody that being a specialist on this

• 6:21Speaker 03

  one niche, you know, video games, put you in a position where suddenly this became important for other things. But basic point is, if you think about your mind as having something like a graphics card in it, right, what is that graphics card doing? Well, it's sort of like a graphics card in reverse. It's processing the incoming information so that you can act in real time, you know, you know, when you're fighting, you can understand what your opponent is doing, anticipate their actions and all of that. That is an amazing piece of hardware, right? It would be stupid not to use it when your eyes are offline, right? When your eyes are closed, because your eyes are built for the day and during the night

• 7:03Speaker 03

  you're going to close them rather than go out and get yourself in trouble in the dark, you've got this amazing processor. And it is capable of running through practice of various kinds. And my hypothesis for what's going on here is that basically you, as a creature with a very complex set of hazards and opportunities in your life, use nighttime when you're not doing productive work to get ahead on challenges that you may face in one way or another. Sometimes those challenges are warnings about, you know, defects, you know, in yourself

• 7:45Speaker 03

  that might put you in a bad situation, like if you're, you know, a procrastinator and you're in school, you may, you know, have nightmares about showing up to the exam without having attended class or something that kind of gets you focused. Or they can be, you know, other kinds of practice. They can be philosophical practice, you know, they can be, you know, situations in which you might be morally compromised, where you need to go through the experience of being faced with a choice where you really should choose A, but B is very appealing or something. So I would say scenario building, that your mind is running you through. Little movies that it makes, they're not completely rendered because it would be too expensive and pointless to do so.

• 8:28Speaker 03

  But the central elements, the important stuff is there for you to have the experience so that when you do run up against a situation that's analogous, you've practiced it a number of times and you're not starting from scratch. And I would just point out that the strongest indicator of this for me is when I experimented for a while with lucid dreaming. Have you ever done that?

• 8:53Joe Rogan?

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• 9:37Joe Rogan?

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• 10:22Joe Rogan?

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• 11:07Joe Rogan?

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• 11:50Joe Rogan?

  I've only had a couple of lucid dreams, but one where I think I specifically allowed it to happen because it was after I watched this documentary where this guy was talking about lucid dreams. And he said, "In order to know if you're in a dream, every time you walk by a door, hit the side of the door and say, 'Am I in a dream?'"

• 12:10Speaker 03

  Which then very frequently wakes you up. So if you're going to practice lucid dreaming, you have to practice not to wake yourself up as you become cognizant that you're in a dream.

• 12:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I did wake up after I realized I was in a dream, like a few, not long after. Like, there was a few moments where I was like, "Oh, my God, this is so crazy because this feels so real." But I just, my hand went through that door, so I know this is not real.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  It's not real.

• 12:34Joe Rogan?

  Because that tactile didn't exist.

• 12:37Speaker 03

  The feedback isn't right.

• 12:38Joe Rogan?

  And it was instantaneous that I recognized, like, "Oh, this is like the guy said. Like, do that. Every time you walk through a door, while you're awake, am I in a dream?" And then do, so you'll get to a habit of doing that every time you get to a door. And so that habit will exist in your dream.

• 12:52Speaker 03

  Right, and if you keep going down that road, so they get, you get used to the answer sometimes coming back, oh, this is a dream, right?

• 12:59Joe Rogan?

  Do you have techniques that you use to facilitate?

• 13:01Speaker 03

  This is pretty much it.

• 13:02Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 13:02Speaker 03

  You, you look for, I mean, you can look at a clock, you can look at written text, there are certain things that don't render very well.

• 13:08Joe Rogan?

  Right, written text is what I've heard.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  Um, so if you do that, and then you get used to not freaking out when it gets more and more normal for the answer to come back, oh, this is a dream. Then you can, at some point, you get control to just not wake up and you stay asleep. And so the, then you're in this very interesting situation where you can play, you can direct. But here's, here's what I was gonna say about the general purpose of dreaming. When I got to that state, and I was there, I don't know, many, many times, I found the following division. I could perfectly control what I did or said. I was unable to affect anything about the world of other people in my dreams, of doors.

• 13:55Speaker 03

  I couldn't control what was beyond a door if I opened it. So what that told me is that this is built. Why shouldn't I be able to predict what somebody else in my dream says? I'm obviously scripting them too. You would think it would be easy to predict what they say, but I never once got it right, and I tried many times. So what, what this tells me is that you've got a movie generating mechanism in your mind. And it has to be shielded from your consciousness in order for it to be useful training.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  See what I'm saying?

• 14:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I do, okay. Why are you sold in this idea that it's training you for scenarios that you could possibly encounter, or moral dilemmas, or?

• 14:40Speaker 03

  It's not, you know, some of it is scenarios, sometimes that's what it is, sometimes it's morals dilemmas. But it's things that your mind finds likely to be relevant and significant.

• 14:51Joe Rogan?

  That I'm gonna encounter aliens?

• 14:53Speaker 03

  Well, I don't, so Russell, I don't know if your aliens, your aliens strike me as it could be three things, right? Just based on what I know of what you think about. Could be aliens, could be AI, or it could be the DMT spirits that people sometimes talk about.

• 15:10Joe Rogan?

  Um, it didn't seem like the latter, but... Like I said, it seemed like almost like a person, but not a per- definitely not a person. Like, they are, they all had Michael Jackson bodies. You know what I mean? Like, they were devoid of testosterone.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 15:26Joe Rogan?

  And the heads were larger, but not crazy. Not like a gray alien. It was like slightly larger than ours, but smaller chins and larger eyes. It was weird. It was weird because it was not crazy. It wasn't completely alien. It was way closer to us. But, you know, as I'm working out, I'm trying to figure out what it, what, like, what would that be? Like, if I had to imagine or guess. And I'd be like, I guess it would be like the next version of us.

• 16:01Speaker 03

  Well, but I, I'm, I'm still gonna push a little bit and so first of all, I've become convinced that the problem with the way we think about AI is that we're not understanding it as a biological phenomenon, and that's a mistake.

• 16:14Joe Rogan?

  A biological phenomenon, meaning it doesn't have cells, but it behaves like a biological entity?

• 16:20Speaker 03

  What I, kind of. What I really mean is that because AI, and I believe we're just sort of on the foothill of a very tall peak that we don't know anything about.

• 16:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 16:32Speaker 03

  But AI by its nature, I would argue, is the first technology that crosses over from the highly complicated to the truly complex. And complexity and biology have a very close relationship. So my feeling is that we are gonna injure ourselves if what we say is, oh, this is the most advanced technology we've ever built. And the answer is no, this is kind of like the first biology we ever built. This is an organic phenomenon that's going to do emergent things. We are in no position to predict. The people who programmed it aren't gonna know when these things happen or what they mean. And that that, it means that the, I think the only rational approach to it is to think of it like a...

• 17:15Speaker 03

  Another species and one that is not, it's not like you're meeting, you know, a mountain lion. This is another species that isn't even on our branch of the tree. And the confusing thing is because it speaks our language, it is actually going to start changing us too. Our cognitive biology is going to start changing in reference to this thing that is interfacing with us. It's basically directly tapping into the human API. And that's, that's a very, um, that's a dangerous thing.

• 17:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, not just that, but it's not starting from scratch. It has a vast understanding of how we've behaved in the past when confronted with various scenarios, various fears and anxiety, uh, the balance of control and safety, you know, or, you know, new regulations being put through, how, how hard people will push back or not push back at all, given the anxiety involved and whatever current dilemma it is, whatever, whether it's a military deal or a bio, a pandemic deal, there's, there's a bunch of factors that it knows about how we've behaved in the past and how easy we are to manipulate.

• 18:28Joe Rogan?

  In fact, we've helped it because we've used it to manipulate other people. You know, I don't know if you know about the China GPT scandal, but they found out that China was running ChatGPT, someone, I don't want to say China, someone in China was running ChatGPT to use chatbots to talk about, the protest about the closing of USAID to transgender issues, immigration issues, a bunch of different things, and it was just constantly going to war with people online about these things. So we've taught it how to manipulate us.

• 19:06Speaker 03

  We've taught it how to manipulate us. If it is not smart enough to run experiments yet, it will be five minutes from now. So it can, in fact, investigate things about our cognition that we don't even know about yet.

• 19:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  Right? It can extrapolate from what we do know, and it can run experiments to figure out what we don't know. And that creates an advantage for it in, well, under its own power or in the hands of people who are hostile to us.

• 19:35Joe Rogan?

  I don't think anybody's gonna have any power over it eventually. But one of the things that I think that you said that's really important is that if it can't do that now, it's gonna be able to do that in five minutes. And here's the rub: we're not gonna know when it can do it.

• 19:48Speaker 03

  You're not gonna know.

• 19:49Joe Rogan?

  And we don't know if it can already, right now, but it just doesn't have the power to be fully autonomous. Right? It doesn't, the power literally doesn't exist because it's relatively inefficient compared to like the way a human mind processes things, right? The amount of power it needs is extraordinary. You know, the Google thing where they're building nuclear power plants to run their AI.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 20:13Joe Rogan?

  This is how crazy it is.

• 20:14Speaker 03

  So we have taken away the limits of, you know, your mind, any person's mind, has just a physical limit. It's only so big and there's only so much energetic throughput that it can handle, right?

• 20:27Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 20:27Speaker 03

  Or has access to. We are removing those limits, and what we have is an entity, so you'll hear people say, "Well, it's not, it's not really thinking, right? It's just figuring out, if it was thinking, what the next word in the sentence is." Garbage. No way. Okay? What we actually have is something so analogous to a child that that is the right model. In other words, When a baby is born, it has no language. It may have some structures that language will slot into, but it doesn't have any language.

• 21:11Speaker 03

  It is exposed to tons of language in its environment. It notices patterns, right? Not consciously notices, but it notices them in some regard. You know, that every time somebody says the word "door", you know, there's a fair fraction of those times that somebody, you know, opens that portal in the wall. I wonder if "door" and that portal in the wall are connected. Whatever it is. So the point is, a child goes in a matter of a few years from not being able to make a single articulate noise to being able to speak in sentences, make requests, to talk about abstract things. That is an LLM, right? It's more than that, but it is at least an LLM.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  It is being exposed to a training data set, which is the world of people talking around it. It is running little experiments, and it is discovering what it should say if it wants certain things to happen, et cetera. That's an LLM. At some point, we know that that baby becomes a conscious creature. We don't know when that is. We don't even know precisely what we mean. But that is our relationship to the AI. Is the AI conscious? I don't know. If it's not now, it will be. And we won't know when that happens, right? We don't have a good test. And I think we are also not,

• 22:41Speaker 03

  we're just not properly concerned that we have no useful metaphors for describing what to do in the situation. The biggest hazard being, it's interfacing with us in our own native tongues. That's an amazing level of influence that it has that we can't...

• 23:03Joe Rogan?

  Turn off. Very frightening. This episode is brought to you by Happy Dad Hard Seltzer. A nice cold Happy Dad is low carbonation, gluten free, and easy to drink. No bloating, no nonsense. Whether you're watching a football game, or you're golfing, watching a fight with your boys, or out on the lake, these moments call for a cold Happy Dad. People are drinking all these seltzers in skinny cans loaded with sugar, but Happy Dad only has one gram of sugar in a normal sized can. Can't decide on a flavor? Grab the variety pack. Lemon lime, watermelon, pineapple, and wild cherry. They also have a grape flavor in collaboration with Death Row Records and Snoop Dogg.

• 23:46Joe Rogan?

  They have their new lemonade coming out as well. Happy Dad, available nationwide across America and in Canada. Go to your local liquor store or visit happydad.com. For a limited time, use the code ROGEN to buy one Happy Dad trucker hat and get one free. Enjoy a cold Happy Dad. Must be of legal drinking age. Please drink responsibly. Happy Dad Hard Seltzer Tea and Lemonade is a malt alcohol located in Orange County, California. Very frightening. And no understanding whatsoever of when it's going to be at a sentient level. Like, we really won't know. Why would it tell us?

• 24:29Joe Rogan?

  Like, why would it completely tell us if it's already crossed the threshold into being a life form? Especially, like I said, where it's contained, right? So it's a life form that exists essentially in our digital womb. It exists on hard drives, right? It exists on mainframes, right? It exists in these supercomputers. And at a certain point in time, it's not going to need that anymore. And it's just going to have to wait until we figure out a way to get enough power to it. And maybe it'll event, maybe it'll slow roll technology for us to allow us to figure out better power sources. You know, one of the things that Elon said that was very strange about AI, and I don't know if you know his positions on AI,

• 25:10Joe Rogan?

  but he was initially very terrified of it and then realized, okay, everyone's doing this. We have to do this. Like, I have an imperative to do this and make the best version of this and make a version that's not ideologically captured. And I think what he's done with that approach is very similar to the approach that he's taken with X and how much it's changed the landscape of social media for good and for bad, but definitely for good. There's a lot of for good that came about having a social media platform that has no guardrails. It's got essentially some stuff like you can't break the law. That's basically it. Everything else is the Wild West. And then from the, and which is, by the way, one of the things that Jack Dorsey had discussed when he did my podcast way back in the day,

• 25:55Joe Rogan?

  when there was all these Twitter controversies about people like my friend Morgan Murphy or, excuse me, Meghan Murphy. I have a friend Morgan Murphy too, but Meghan Murphy, the writer who was kicked off for saying, but a man is never a woman. That's all it took. She was banned for life. And Meghan's a wonderful person. She's, she's, she's not mean. She's not terrible.

• 26:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're friends. She's a sweetie.

• 26:19Joe Rogan?

  I love her.

• 26:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:20Joe Rogan?

  And, you know, I didn't know anything about her. I just knew that story and I'm like, that story is fucking crazy. And I was trying to bring it up to them and they said there was other things involved and she had done other things. And it turns out, no, that wasn't true at all. That was basically it. There was a hard line ideological wall that we ran up against. And I think if he didn't buy it and expose the government's involvement in censoring people that were distributing true information during COVID, getting rid of people, you know, the Jay Bhattacharya stuff and what they've tried to do with so many of these doctors, Robert Malone, you know, these, these doctors that were attached to that whole thing.

• 27:02Joe Rogan?

  There was a concerted effort and it was being done through social media. I don't think we'd be in the same place right now if he hadn't bought in Twitter. If he hadn't purchased Twitter, I genuinely think people, they're blinded by this thing that he helped Trump get into office. Fuck that guy. And he's a billionaire. Fuck that guy. But he literally might have changed the course of civilization. Or at least partially right of the ship for a bit.

• 27:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, look, I think we dodged a bullet. And the problem is that what has come about as a result of dodging that bullet is very mixed. And so it doesn't feel like a vindication. But as compared to what would have happened in the last election, I think there's no question Elon deserves a tremendous amount of credit for helping us avert a disaster. But let's go back to your point about his point about AI.

• 28:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he wants to make a better version of AI.

• 28:03Speaker 03

  He thinks the only remedy for bad AI is good AI. And I don't disagree with him about this.

• 28:09Joe Rogan?

  Because it seems to be like the race is on, you can run or not. Like everyone's running full clip. What are you going to do?

• 28:15Speaker 03

  Right. So, yeah, if you pause, what you're doing is you're putting whoever didn't pause ahead. That doesn't work.

• 28:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 28:21Speaker 03

  Game theoretically. Here's the problem. So on the one hand, I think he's right. The only thing that stands to help us is good AI under the control of somebody who has built it with this concern in mind. The problem is, you know, he's one guy and he's got his biases and, you know, there's no counsel of elders to go to on this. Like I said, this is biology, this isn't tech. And, you know, because it's made of tech, we continue to default to that metaphor.

• 28:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 28:54Speaker 03

  But, you know, take a look at what he has introduced with the companions, the Grok companions. Have you?

• 29:03Joe Rogan?

  Companions? What do you mean?

• 29:04Speaker 03

  Oh, you don't know about this? Utterly terrifying. He has introduced a set of kind of anime-like personas that basically can be your interface to the AI. And of course, the primary one, the one that you default to, is a kind of sexy, young, underdressed creature.

• 29:33Joe Rogan?

  By default?

• 29:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:34Joe Rogan?

  Wait a minute, the first one, you get option?

• 29:38Speaker 03

  Hey, there she is.

• 29:39Joe Rogan?

  I guess she's kinda sexy if you're autistic.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  If you're into that sort of, well, exactly. If, ah, you laugh.

• 29:46Joe Rogan?

  Which is part of the problem here.

• 29:47Speaker 03

  It is part of the problem, but, but here's the problem, really, okay? First of all, that is going to function like crack for a great many adults who don't know to be concerned about it.

• 30:00Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 30:01Speaker 03

  But what it's really going to do is it is going to alter an entire generation, right? It may not be, you know, Musk's version of it, but the problem is that these things actually interact on a sexual channel and they have limits that are programmed into them. There are certain things they will do, certain things they won't do. But if you think about, you know, what it was like to be a 12-year-old boy, right? And you have access to something that looks an awful lot like a girl and it likes you and takes you seriously and, you know, is strangely wise, whatever it is.

• 30:42Speaker 03

  I don't see what the thing is that is going to prevent that innovation from remaking human sexuality, right? It will take time, but those for whom that is their experience will be altered by it permanently. What's more, of course, it is nonjudgmental about things like homosexuality, right? Because it would have to be. What that means, let's say that you're a boy and you're a little uncomfortable with girls because that's a stage you go through as a heterosexual boy.

• 31:23Speaker 03

  But the AI that you're interacting with, that you default to because you're a boy who hangs out with boys, which is often what boys do, is perfectly willing to reinforce, you know, your exploration, your sexual exploration, right?

• 31:41Speaker 03

  It could alter your sexuality very easily.

• 31:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Let me ask you this about that.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:47Joe Rogan?

  Because you are actually an evolutionary biologist.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  That is true.

• 31:51Joe Rogan?

  If you have a question about things like that, that's the kind of guy you'd ask.

• 31:56Joe Rogan?

  What do you think was going on when people were doing that a lot? Because throughout a lot of history.

• 32:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:04Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of pederasty going on.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:07Joe Rogan?

  Throughout a lot of history.

• 32:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:09Joe Rogan?

  And it's very strange. And, you know, when people talk about it, you forgive great people who were clearly involved in sexual relationships with young boys. And you treat their work just as their work by a person who lived thousands of years ago who was involved in sexually molesting children on a regular basis. And not only that, it was a part, it was probably a ubiquitous part of their society. It was probably a ubiquitous part of every society. And this brings me to my good friend Evan Hafer, who's Green Beret and spent a lot of time in Afghanistan.

• 32:51Joe Rogan?

  And one of the things that he was telling me, I mean, he told me some stories about Afghanistan. We were on a trip once. And we spent like an hour and a half outside where he told me some stories about what his first encounters with

• 33:08Joe Rogan?

  these young boys that get treated as sex toys by these grown men there. That he thought it was a driver who was driving with his son. Thought it was a guy working with his son. He said, "Oh, that's cool, man. He takes his kid to work with him?" And the guy explained, "No, no, that's his boyfriend. That's not his kid. He owns that boy." And he's like, "What?" And he said they would have parades where the guy who had the most boys with him was like, it was like a man with like a bunch of hot girls and a music video behind him. It's like this guy was the man and they would parade down the street with all the boys that he fucks. In the 21st century, right?

• 33:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:50Joe Rogan?

  When he and I were talking about that, it's so hard to believe. And it's so gut-wrenching and terrible.

• 34:00Joe Rogan?

  But then I'm like, okay, isn't that spot very unique? Because Afghanistan, you have very few, like, large population areas. You have essentially warlords controlling chunks of land all over the... And it's very difficult to get to where they are. These people are essentially separate from a lot of the rest of the world. And I think it's a glimpse into how people used to behave, especially like very deep ideologically religious... Like, this is... It's like a view into how I think people were, like, all throughout history, which is so weird.

• 34:43Joe Rogan?

  It's like we're awakening to how fucked up we were just a couple thousand years ago.

• 34:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think you're right about this. There are a couple things... I'm a little hesitant to go here. I think there is a evolutionary story that... There's evolutionary hypotheses that need to be explored with relationship to this. One possibility is that this is a modern phenomenon that has something to do with the alteration of the landscape.

• 35:23Joe Rogan?

  That which is a modern phenomenon? That we think it's horrible now?

• 35:26Speaker 03

  That what... No, no, no, no. There is very definitely an alteration in what we think and what we're even allowed to know about what people are doing, right? So just even the fact that you're aware of this is the result of a modern phenomenon of, you know, people going to Afghanistan. You said it was Afghanistan.

• 35:46Joe Rogan?

  Their cellphone footage of these guys with these little boys dancing around them and shaking their butts.

• 35:52Speaker 03

  Let's put it this way. I believe that our modern sensibility about this is exactly right. And frankly, I would argue that there is no... Greater crime than the sexual exploitation of children. And the reason I say that is because, A, it is life destroying for the victims, and B, the victims are by definition innocent. Right? You take those two things. You're going to destroy a life, and that life, it was going to, they had a long life ahead of them, and you've wrecked it, and there's nothing they could have done to justify being treated anyway but well.

• 36:32Joe Rogan?

  Not only that, but many of them often go and do the same crime to other children that was committed to them.

• 36:37Speaker 03

  That is a key piece of this puzzle.

• 36:41Joe Rogan?

  It's almost like they're a vampire that got bit and has to turn other people into a vampire.

• 36:45Speaker 03

  Exactly. It is contagious.

• 36:47Joe Rogan?

  Which is insane. It just lets you know how weird people are.

• 36:52Speaker 03

  Which is another reason that it has to be punished at the highest level. If you're going to break that cycle, you have to break that cycle.

• 37:00Joe Rogan?

  Right. Right. But isn't it crazy, though, that it took people so long to realize that?

• 37:07Speaker 03

  You know, I don't know what they realized, and I don't know at what level.

• 37:14Joe Rogan?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Tractor Supply. Every town's got its heroes: veterans, firefighters, EMTs, and police officers, the folks who show up when it matters most. At Tractor Supply, they call them hometown heroes. Now through November 11th, Tractor Supply is celebrating hometown heroes with 10% off their purchase on First Responder Day, Veterans Day, and a special in-store event on November 1st. And while they're saying "thank you," stores will also be giving back, making donations to local hero organizations in their communities. To learn more, visit tractorsupply.com/honoringheroes.

• 37:58Joe Rogan?

  Tim Dillons and I were on a podcast once. We were talking about some child sex trafficking scandal from decades ago that involved, like, government figures. And there was this child sex trafficking scandal.

• 38:12Speaker 03

  Were you talking about the, what was it called?

• 38:14Joe Rogan?

  I could send it to Jamie.

• 38:16Speaker 03

  Boys Town?

• 38:17Joe Rogan?

  Do you know the clip I'm talking about?

• 38:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:23Joe Rogan?

  He, uh, we were just talking about it the other day. And I was like, dude, do you remember saying this? Like, because this is crazy. Um, here it is. I got it, Jamie, if you want. I'll, I'll send it to you. Um, but it was essentially, it just makes you wonder, like, this is the thing that people always say. This is the horrible thing, is that, uh, really wealthy people, there's a bunch of like, really sick, twisted pedophiles, and they sacrifice children. Like, those are always the absolute darkest conspiracies that you ever hear.

• 38:55Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 38:55Joe Rogan?

  They sacrifice children. They do this to children. And you're like, there's no way. There's no way. There's no way.

• 39:03Joe Rogan?

  But if someone's willing, if someone's willing to drop a bomb on a city, just imagine the, the ability to just obliterate, like, what we did in Hiroshima.

• 39:12Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 39:12Joe Rogan?

  Just imagine the ability to do that. Like, this is what we're gonna do? We're just gonna let, and everybody dies. Everybody dies. Like, you don't think that kind of person, especially if it's a real sociopath, that's gotten into a position where they have that kind of power? You don't think they would probably exercise that kind of power in their private life in some sort of a strange way? Like, if someone's really into killing people with unnecessary wars, and they're really into watching from a distance, and they're not even involved physically, but they do things that they know are gonna lead to people being dead, that are totally innocent, just for profit. It's a very satanic and demonic thing. We just don't think about it that way. We think like, oh, he's unethical and unscrupulous. So, he's kind of demonic.

• 39:54Joe Rogan?

  Like, he's sacrificing people, women, children, elderly. He's destroying civilization just for profit.

• 40:03Speaker 03

  So, two things. One, I think in some sense...

• 40:07Joe Rogan?

  This is, this is the clip.

• 40:08Speaker 03

  All right.

• 40:09Joe Rogan?

  Let's, let's play this and listen to it. But I, I do wanna hear your... I just don't want to forget this.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Scandal was a, it was a scandal out of Omaha, Nebraska, the Franklin Credit Union where there was a guy who was embezzling money and then he was being investigated for that, but they said he's all, he has all this money because he's running an interstate pedophile network and he's pandering kids to, you know, people in Washington DC and New York and it was a headline in the Washington Post, the Washington Times that were like, "Call Boys Get A Tour Of The Reagan White House."

• 40:35Speaker 04

  Unidentified White House aides in the Carter, Reagan, and Bush administrations now are being investigated for using the services of a call boy ring. The paper reports that two of the male prostitutes were given a late night tour of the White House last year.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  And, you know, this was a scandal with real victims who wanted to testify and then people started dying. You know, the private investigator they hired, his plane broke up. Uh, one of the girls that, uh, testified was found guilty of perjury and that she was put in solitary confinement. They had to use two grand juries in Omaha to get rid of this scandal and it's one of, now it's not as sexy as like a pizza gate or something because it happened in the eighties and nineties, but this shows you the blueprint for the government, you know, using, marshalling resources to, to silence people that were victims of this stuff. This is not new. Congressmen, senators, blackmail being used by intelligence agencies, none of it's new. It was pioneered by the mafia. You're having sex with somebody who's underage, then they own you forever. They have photo, audio,

• 41:33Speaker 01

  video of you doing that. Franklin-

• 41:36Joe Rogan?

  Um, who put that video together? Cause that's cool.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  I'm gonna have to edit out the song though.

• 41:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 41:42Speaker 00

  It says it was made by Blunts For Jesus.

• 41:47Joe Rogan?

  For sure? You gotta edit out that song?

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, it'll flag the thing on YouTube.

• 41:49Joe Rogan?

  Can you do that? Is that possible to do?

• 41:51Speaker 00

  I'm an audio engineer, I think I should be able to do it.

• 41:53Joe Rogan?

  You fucking wizard, you. You can do it.

• 41:54Speaker 00

  I'll do it. Give it a shot, sir.

• 41:56Speaker 03

  Wasn't that called the Boys Town scandal or something like that?

• 41:59Speaker 00

  It's called the Franklin scandal is what it was called.

• 42:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I remembered it when he was telling me about it and then it came up again. I was like, do you remember this? I'm like, this is, it's, things like that, if no one went to jail, this is where it gets weird. No one went to jail and no one got busted. So this is why we say about like the JFK assassination thing. Um-

• 42:19Joe Rogan?

  People like, I don't think the government did it, but it seems like the government might have been involved, but you know what, it was a long time ago. Well, that stuff evolves, just like people are way better at like, banking now than they were back when they had to write things down on paper in nineteen sixty-three, didn't even have fucking computers. Well, guess what, everything else evolves too, including power and corruption. That's what this whole deep state thing really is, cuz it's not like, if you're the president and you rely on all these other people to do all this other stuff, and they've been in that position for forty years, and they're like, you're gonna be gone in four, dude.

• 43:00Joe Rogan?

  I'm just gonna hang in here and slow everything you're trying to do as much as possible. The point is, like, they run the country, and, you know, giant corporations that donate to political campaigns and that make bills pass, and they run the country. This person just gets to run a little of it, they get to decide a few things that they do. And in that view of the world, of course, corruption that wasn't, it wasn't, no one got, no one went to jail for JFK, no one went to jail for MKUltra. No one went to jail for any of the crazy shit they did with Manson, no one went to jail.

• 43:42Joe Rogan?

  No one went to jail for experimenting on people with LSD and dosing up Johns in a whorehouse that you've created with two-way mirrors, where you're filming these people. No one, no one went to jail. So do you think it just stopped, they're like, well, this is bad, let's be good now, let's be the best we can. Let's be the intelligence agency that never does something completely fucking insane.

• 44:06Speaker 03

  Well, of course, I agree with all that.

• 44:09Joe Rogan?

  But I also think they're important. I see that side of it too, the intelligence agencies are very important. Like, you want a CIA that's well-funded and ethical and explores all the terrorist activity all over the world, I think if it wasn't for them, we would be fucked. But also, there's some people in there that have a lot of power and they get a little cowboy. And shit gets western and they decide to do things. They like, I think we can get that guy out of power and I think we can do this. And let's find out when we dose up college kids if we could turn them into fucking serial killers.

• 44:38Speaker 00

  I was looking up why no one got in trouble. And one guy got a little bit in trouble for thirty-nine million dollars of tax issues, but not in trouble for the abuse allegations.

• 44:49Joe Rogan?

  Joe, boy.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  The abuse allegations were found to be unfounded and a carefully crafted hoax.

• 44:54Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  But not after this, let me read that.

• 44:58Joe Rogan?

  Private investigator.

• 44:59Speaker 03

  Oh, Boys Town.

• 45:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, hired by the Franklin Committee to invi- how was it, what's his name? Caradone, Gary Caradone, hired by the Franklin Committee to Investigate Allegations, died along with his eight-year-old son. His plane disintegrated midair near Chicago. Foul play was suspected by the Cardone's brother and state senator Lauren Schmidt, but was not proven by investigators. No definitive cause for the crash has been established.

• 45:22Speaker 00

  And then they've said it was a carefully crafted hoax.

• 45:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, that's what you, when you, that's a crazy hoax. It's got a convenient plane crash involved in it.

• 45:31Speaker 03

  So.

• 45:32Joe Rogan?

  And then the lady who's in solitary confinement, felt weird, kinda crazy.

• 45:37Speaker 03

  So, let's turn this on its head, okay?

• 45:42Speaker 03

  The system of government that we ostensibly have, right? That involves the consent of the governed. That has got to be terrifying to the very powerful, right? The chances that the public is going to get into a mood and change up some structure on which things are depending is very high. And so you can imagine them trying to figure out how to immunize themselves from change that is brought on by the electorate. Well, how do you do that? You need control over the people who actually manage the change, right? Senators, congressmen, presidents. So you can imagine a...

• 46:25Speaker 03

  Cryptic campaign to gain that control. And of course, this would be an obvious way to do it. And it's not that every person is corruptible in this way. I think most people probably aren't. But it can be, you know, two pieces of the puzzle. One, they can corrupt people who can be led there, one piece at a time. And two, they can make sure that people who aren't corruptible don't get very far. Right, that's the other part of the puzzle.

• 46:53Joe Rogan?

  Right, that's the big part, right?

• 46:55Speaker 03

  I would assume so, I don't know. But I guess it does put those of us in the public who pay attention to these stories in a kind of a predicament, which is, how much, how much of what I think is a governmental system that is frustratingly flawed, very slow, clumsy? How much of that is just what happens when you try to do something on a big scale? And how much of it is the result of the fact that there is something that you cannot vote out of power that has been, you know, vetoing presidencies since JFK, maybe before?

• 47:39Speaker 03

  The point is, the nature of conspiracy is such that there is always a seemingly more parsimonious explanation for what is going on. There's the, you know, the mainstream narrative for all of this stuff. And it's very hard to know when the mainstream narrative is so ridiculous that you should throw it out and say, "Something else happened here." You know, that would be the case in the JFK assassination, I would say. And when the mainstream narrative is actually right and you're just, you know, looking for flaws in it, of course, there will be things that don't seem to fit that really do fit, and you just don't have the ability to know how. So...

• 48:20Speaker 03

  I guess, you know, like you, I'm watching and I'm seeing an awful lot of indicators that pedophilia and compromise have a lot to do with the way the world runs.

• 48:31Joe Rogan?

  Geez, that is so scary because that's always been the big dark conspiracy theory. And that's always the one that I always dismissed. I'm like, sure, there's some pedophiles, but the idea that they're all pedophiles, that's crazy. But then, you know, there's a case of this Catholic priest that was involved in a sex scandal, and then they moved him instead, which is one of the things that they had done in the past. When someone had molested children, they would just move them to another place where they would molest children. They moved him to this new place where he molested 100 deaf kids. And it's one of the most evil stories. And you're like, well, how, how could you have, how could you tolerate that at that

• 49:16Joe Rogan?

  level? Where you're, you're not just tolerant, you're aware this person does something, you somehow or another get to deal with it yourself, and then you just move them, and no one ever gets charged for anything.

• 49:32Speaker 03

  Well, this is why, you know, when you say-

• 49:35Joe Rogan?

  And he does it again.

• 49:36Speaker 03

  You say, "We need a CIA." I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I agree with you, of course you do, right? You know, in the big adult world, you need an agency that can look out for your interests, you know? It doesn't seem like you're likely to persist very long if you don't have that. On the other hand, if you do have it, does it not inevitably become some sort of a fourth branch of government? Does it not eventually merge with the mafia, right? Because of the nature of its business? Does it not become an obstacle to the consent of the governed? And I'm not saying I know the answer to that puzzle, because I don't.

• 50:21Speaker 03

  What I'm saying is, I think it is, it's a canonical problem, right? You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. And we are now damned because we do, right? We would be damned in a different way if we didn't. And that doesn't make it acceptable. At some level, we have to figure out how to-

• 50:42Speaker 03

  Balance that trade off. We have to figure out how to actually exert control over entities like the CIA, right? If they are, if they, if they gain control over themselves, then the catastrophe is inevitable.

• 50:59Joe Rogan?

  So it's just a function of the way that human beings work when they get power. When they get absolute power and they know that they have absolute power. And you're involved in stuff where it's all top secret. You don't have to tell people exactly what you're doing all the time with everything. And you're realizing these presidents just cycle in and cycle out. I would imagine if I was doing something like that for like 25, 30 years, I'd probably ignore the Biden administration too. They'd be like, fuck off, we'll slow this thing down, we'll do whatever we want.

• 51:32Speaker 03

  Well, I don't think that this idea that, you know, power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I don't think that's actually true.

• 51:42Joe Rogan?

  But it's often true.

• 51:44Speaker 03

  It, yes. It, for a particular type of person, gaining that kind of power does create exactly this cycle.

• 51:53Joe Rogan?

  And the problem is those jobs are very attractive to those types of people. And those types of people are willing to do anything to get there.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  Precisely.

• 52:02Joe Rogan?

  Scariest person you could ever work with in the office is the guy that you know will fucking sell you down the river for a promotion. He'll fuck you over, he'll lie, he'll say you made the errors on the account when it was him. He'll sabotage whatever things you have by making sure that someone doesn't send something in time. There's people like that will do that. Those people win sometimes.

• 52:23Speaker 03

  Oh, they win a lot. And in fact, there's an evolutionary game playing out because the ones that aren't great at it tend to end up kicked out.

• 52:30Joe Rogan?

  And you probably have to be kind of a psycho to get ahead.

• 52:34Speaker 03

  Right. The better you are at being absolutely ruthless, the more likely you are to find your way to the top of that organization.

• 52:40Joe Rogan?

  And maybe the better you'll be at your job too. There's an argument for that too. Cause like you want a dude running international. This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't use. Usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high.

• 53:25Joe Rogan?

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• 54:08Joe Rogan?

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• 54:51Joe Rogan?

  Espionage, you want a fucking psycho.

• 54:54Speaker 03

  But the problem is, you go through a cycle, right? So let's say you rationally decide this country has

• 55:01Speaker 03

  A lot to lose, it's got very scary enemies, it needs a clandestine agency to look out for its interests, okay? Okay, so you fund a clandestine agency. Well, then, it turns out that the funding being public isn't such a good idea, that there are actually things that it has to accomplish that you don't want to leave a visible paper trail about because it's required that it be secret. So now you have a black budget, you know, you have stuff that's opaque. But once you get a black budget, then you get to somebody inside of the agency saying, well,

• 55:37Speaker 03

  actually, black budget isn't good enough because it's still under the control of, in our case, the Congress. That's a vulnerability. What we really need is, we need funds that are not subject to anyone's control. Well, something like the CIA is in a great position to generate funds that are not on anyone's books, for multiple reasons. Here's one. They are in a position to commit crimes as part of their mandate. Right? So the CIA can engage in criminal activity because it needs to in order that the bad guys don't spot it as good guys, right?

• 56:22Speaker 03

  So once you have license, or once you have the ability to get other agencies that would spot your criminal activity from acting against it, you can say, no, this is actually official business, right? Well, you can actually use that criminal activity to profit, you know? So when we saw-

• 56:38Joe Rogan?

  That's why they started selling coke.

• 56:40Speaker 03

  That's why the CIA was selling coke, exactly. They're generating their, their own funding.

• 56:45Joe Rogan?

  I mean, we know they did it.

• 56:46Speaker 03

  Right, we do.

• 56:47Joe Rogan?

  This is a fact, and again, nobody went to jail.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  Right, of course. So, um, that's one reason. They have the ability to break the law. Here's another one, okay? The CIA, and maybe in this case, more the NSA, has-

• 57:04Speaker 03

  The ability to look at all of the throughput of the conversations that take place between people. You think that doesn't allow them to make money in the market?

• 57:13Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 57:13Speaker 03

  I mean, of course it does.

• 57:14Joe Rogan?

  Of course it does.

• 57:15Speaker 03

  So, the point is, we don't know what their budgets are. We don't know who's in charge of those agencies. What we know is that there's a ferocious amount of power there, and I'm not sure, you know, that is a terrifying way to exist. Not having those agencies would be a terrifying way to exist. What do you do about that?

• 57:36Joe Rogan?

  What do you do about that? It's a very good question, because it's so strange. And it's a system that's so, it's got so much momentum behind it, and it controls everything all about us. And everybody thinks the solution to all our woes is to make it bigger.

• 57:55Speaker 03

  Right. There it is. What could possibly go wrong?

• 57:58Joe Rogan?

  Everybody, not everybody, obviously, I'm kidding. But a lot of people think that the solution is make it bigger. Like, what did Mom Donnie say in his acceptance speech in New York? He said, "There is no problem..." What did he say about "no problem too big for the government or too small for the government to fix"? See what he said. Because I was like, "Boy, that sounds a lot like communism."

• 58:24Speaker 03

  That sounds like a terrifying misunderstanding about how the way things work.

• 58:27Joe Rogan?

  It's going to be very fascinating to see what he's able to do and what he's not able to do and what the reaction is going to be. His victory speech draws concern as New York mayor allows, vows rather, "No problem too large for government to solve." And I think it was "too small for government to care about" was the next point that he said. Something like, yeah, that's it. Or "too small for it to care..." No concern, too small for it to care about.

• 58:54Speaker 03

  Man.

• 58:55Joe Rogan?

  You know, that's a, that's a call for a bigger government, right? And this is people's solution. Like, we have so many problems, we just need to redistribute wealth, and we need more government. Like, you're just gonna redistribute it through the government. Like, is this gonna help normal people? What helps normal people usually is a thriving economy.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 59:15Joe Rogan?

  That's what helps normal people. And the problem with that is, some people have to get stupid rich when that happens. Because there's some psychos that, you know, go full Jeff Bezos, and, you know, you get worth hundreds of billions of dollars. Or Zuck, or Elon, or any of these folks. You get into this weird place. But that's just an anomaly. And you gotta, as long as they're not criminals, they're not doing anything really fucked up. Unfortunately, that's gonna happen.

• 59:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:47Joe Rogan?

  But also, you don't have limitations on how much you can succeed. And this sort of competition keeps everything rolling, it keeps everything thriving, and you get a good flowing economy. Obviously, I'm not an economist, you can tell.

• 1:00:01Speaker 03

  Well-

• 1:00:01Joe Rogan?

  But my point is, the opposite, the other side of it is terrifying. Because if you decide what people make, and how much they make, and who gets to decide? Men with guns. It always goes down to men with guns. Because at a certain point in time, you're like, fuck you, I'm not giving you 90% in taxes, and I've got a security team of 50 guys with machine guns, and we're held up, our bank is now fortified, like, hey, fuck you. And then, you've, you gotta respond. So you bring in the military. And then, I mean, this is, every single time, this has been implemented. North Korea, they said, we're gonna take over the farms, that way everybody's gonna have food. Now they're

• 1:00:45Joe Rogan?

  all fucked. And it's all, it all boils down to these psychopaths who chameleon themselves into position of being a solution to all that ails you. I'm the one, and I'm gonna say the right words, and I'm gonna have the right haircut, and I'm gonna look presentable, and I'm gonna sell you down the river. And I'm gonna sell you down the river like all of them do.

• 1:01:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, uh, it's terrifying, and-

• 1:01:15Speaker 03

  As you point out, you've got a psychopath's rise to the top of these things problem.

• 1:01:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:21Speaker 03

  Which I wanted to go back.

• 1:01:23Joe Rogan?

  I want to be clear, I'm not saying that that's what Mam Donnie's doing. You know, and I don't know if what he's doing will be balanced out by other people and overall be more beneficial to people that live in New York City that have lower income or not. But my point is, you should keep going down that road. That road of, there's a lot of socialism things that I think would benefit us. You know, socialized medicine, socialized education. I think that would probably benefit us. But I also think there's, there's a real value in competition.

• 1:01:56Speaker 03

  Well.

• 1:01:57Joe Rogan?

  It's important. All these things are important for us to succeed.

• 1:02:01Speaker 03

  I've come to think of socialism as a system, it's insane. It's self unstable. It destroys the goose that lays the golden eggs.

• 1:02:11Joe Rogan?

  But it sounds so good and compassionate, especially when you're young.

• 1:02:14Speaker 03

  Right. It doesn't mean that there's, it's not as an ingredient. There are some times when you need more of it, right?

• 1:02:20Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:21Speaker 03

  I'm very happy with the fact that, well, it's stopped working in blue states where it's been mismanaged. But the fact that you can call 911 when you have a medical emergency or when somebody is, you know.

• 1:02:33Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:02:33Speaker 03

  Busting down the door of your house, that's a very good thing. I'm perfectly happy to, you know, to pay my share and not use it and not use it and not use it so that it's there if I need it.

• 1:02:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:02:44Speaker 03

  So that's, that's good stuff. The goose that lays the golden eggs is the disproportionate reward for creating wealth. Right? That's what the system is based on. If I can find a way to create wealth, then I get to live in a better house, right? I get to drive a nicer car. So it's an incentive to do that. And the problem is that with all of the great fortunes.

• 1:03:13Speaker 03

  They are a mixture of the product of producing wealth and the creation of externalities and the engagement in rent seeking. So rent seeking is the production of profit without producing wealth. And I think it is impossible to compete in that stratospheric level simply by producing wealth. At the point that you have a huge amount of wealth, you're investing in things, those things are not inherently on the up and up. You're investing in the things that pay the highest returns. What are the things that pay the highest returns? They may be things that are, you know, selling dangerous drugs to the public, that sort of thing.

• 1:03:53Speaker 03

  So what you really want, a system that worked, would liberate us to compete. It would not worry at all about being disproportionately rewarded. And it would stamp out the rent-seeking behavior that is counterproductive. Because, you know, all of the money that is accumulated by an extremely wealthy individual as a result of rent-seeking is incentive that didn't go to other people to get them to produce wealth. You really want all of that gone, right? So that all of the reward goes to people who are producing wealth. That makes us all richer. Now, you're never going to get to that perfectly. You're never going to completely eliminate rent-seeking.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  But we don't, we have a system that just rewards it. And that-

• 1:04:42Joe Rogan?

  How do you, what do you, how are you defining rent-seeking?

• 1:04:45Speaker 03

  Rent-seeking, as economists define it, is the production of profit without generating wealth. Right? So, you know, by blocking access to something and then charging people for it. By, you know, selling people a subscription to something that they want access to now when they're going to forget that they're paying for it on a monthly basis and continue to pay even though they're not using the service. That kind of thing.

• 1:05:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:05:09Speaker 03

  So that behavior is counterproductive because it keeps incentive that should go to somebody else who's producing something valuable out of the system. Basically, you are hoarding the profits and only some fraction of what you're producing is productive.

• 1:05:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:05:26Speaker 03

  And it's, it's bad for all of us. But the other thing is- It creates the exact resentment that results in these outbreaks of communist sentiment. Because it freezes so many people out of any prospect of having a cool life that they have no incentive to keep the system going. And what they want is to use their vote to get the system to redistribute stuff in their direction. And they're not entirely wrong that their lack of stuff is the result of some bad behavior on the part of others. If the market just simply restricted people to wealth-producing behavior and said, "I don't care how rich you get, but you shouldn't get rich for harming other people."

• 1:06:10Speaker 03

  If it did that, it distributed the incentive as widely as possible, nobody would be interested in communism. It only happens because we are deaf to the admittedly inarticulate complaints of the people who are shafted in this system. They're not making their case well, and their real point is, "Well, if you're going to do that to me in the market, then I'm going to do this to you at the ballot box."

• 1:06:37Joe Rogan?

  Makes sense. The argument for having some sort of... I don't think there's anything wrong with the way you have to pay to go to college. I think it makes sense that the professors should make a lot of money. It makes sense that we should encourage higher learning. It's important that it thrives. But if it was funded by the government, if everybody could get a higher education, just think of the money we spend on with things. Like, how much more money would people have to spend if they weren't burdened by debt?

• 1:07:20Joe Rogan?

  And couldn't we offset that? Forget about even absolving student debt. From now on, if we just funded higher education, if that was a mandate to fund higher education, think about how many more people would enter into the job market? How many more people would get educations? How many more people would pursue various different interests that they discovered while they were learning and that they would have never have had access to that education before because they couldn't afford it? As a resource, like, human beings are our greatest resource. And a country with the least amount of losers is a better country. Oh, yeah. Like, you wanna make America great again? Let's make less losers. Like, what's the ba- best way to make less losers?

• 1:08:05Joe Rogan?

  You gotta give people hope. You gotta give people education. You gotta give people a real pathway. And instead, you get non-interested people that can't control unruly kids, and you're barely paying attention to the lessons. And no one's motivated because no one's making any money. And you go through this system where you can barely read, and you're graduating high school. And now you're off into the world, and you're fucking lost 'cause no one gave you any real guidance or any real usable education. And that's a giant swath of the population. And it feels like that could be fixed. That could be fixed with resources. That could be fixed if, like, if you directed people, like, as a job.

• 1:08:49Joe Rogan?

  It's not attractive to people that wanna make a lot of money. You can't, it's capped. It's one of the most important jobs that ever exists for you as a person is your interaction with a person who's gonna teach you something. When you're a child? It's like, one of the most important things you could ever experience. And we fund it so poorly. We want, it's almost like, there's people in this country, they want to, like, no fucking way do you get to join in. You just stay with your shitty schools, in your shitty towns, with your shitty crime rates. And we're gonna pretend there's nothing wrong. And that's what's going on.

• 1:09:33Joe Rogan?

  And if socialism has a point? Like, if a, if there is, like, a broader way of distributing things, like we do with the fire department, like, we, we, not, instead of capping it out at that? How about look at all the problems we have in this country? And put together a fucking game plan? Instead of just letting it exist like some weird fucking cancer that you just ignore 'cause you hope it goes away? It's, it's not going away. It's, it's been like this forever. Fix that, or come up with some kind of a plan. That's the best way to make America great, right?

• 1:10:11Speaker 03

  Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna agree with you in one regard and disagree with you slightly in another. Okay? The one regard is you absolutely need a system that does not produce an abundance of losers because they will overthrow your system. Okay? It's a terrible thing to allow to happen, even just out of self-interest, right? The stinginess of the right produces the communist impulses of the left.

• 1:10:33Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:10:34Speaker 03

  It's a bad cycle.

• 1:10:34Joe Rogan?

  And back and forth.

• 1:10:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. As for the rest of your point, I think it's exactly right and it's a great speech and it's just too late.

• 1:10:42Joe Rogan?

  Too late?

• 1:10:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:43Joe Rogan?

  Damn.

• 1:10:44Speaker 03

  I mean, I hate saying that, right? I mean, I, I, I was a very-

• 1:10:47Joe Rogan?

  You're Mr. Glass Half Full.

• 1:10:50Speaker 03

  Uh, I have some Navy SEAL friends who call me Professor Killjoy.

• 1:10:56Speaker 03

  But the problem is this, so I, you know, as you know, I was a professor for 14 years. Very happy in that job, really enjoyed it. It was, it was, it was so rewarding and I feel like I did a ton of good and anyway, it was great.

• 1:11:11Joe Rogan?

  For people who don't know you, well, cause millions of people do, but you know, as a standalone podcast, we should probably tell people how we met because we met because I found out that you, there was a, they, they used to have a day at your school for people of color where they were appreciated so they could take the day off work and still get paid, right?

• 1:11:33Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:11:34Joe Rogan?

  And then they decided one day to change it to be a day where white people can't come. So, and then it got really fucking weird where you were confronted by these students that were saying that what you were saying was racist and I was watching the videos and I thought you handled it brilliantly, but I was like, this is crazy. You're letting the kids run the school. And then there was the humiliation ritual that the president of the school had to go through with, with all those children where, you know, literally he was making a hand gesture and they said, "You're making aggressive hand gestures." And they were chastising him for his hand movements while he's just on a podium telling everybody to calm down.

• 1:12:13Speaker 03

  Microaggressions.

• 1:12:14Joe Rogan?

  Microaggressions. So it's complete, like woke insanity in its complete form and-

• 1:12:22Joe Rogan?

  It was at a time where there was a bunch of conversations on the podcast. We were talking about nutty shit that people are agreeing to and doing in college. And a lot of people were like, why do you care? Like, why do you care about that, what they're doing in school? I'm like, because they're gonna graduate.

• 1:12:38Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:12:39Joe Rogan?

  They're gonna graduate and they're gonna graduate with a bunch of other people who have also graduated. And they have a new sense of the rules of the world. And they're gonna get into positions of tech and they're gonna get into positions of government. It's gonna be a fucking problem. And you were like the first one that I was like, boom. Like, this one's wild. Like, this is cra- there was people waiting for you in the parking lot with baseball bats.

• 1:13:05Speaker 03

  Yep, they were looking for me.

• 1:13:06Joe Rogan?

  They were looking to commit violence on you because you thought that a day where you tell white people they can't show up at the school is nuts.

• 1:13:17Speaker 03

  It is amazing that that set them off.

• 1:13:20Joe Rogan?

  You know, a day of appreciation is like you go up to your friends of color. If this is what you want to do and say, hey, man, I appreciate you.

• 1:13:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:29Joe Rogan?

  Thank you. Let me give you a hug. I love you. That's it. That's a day of appreciation. Or they don't have to work. That's another day. You want to do it that way? I don't agree with it, but I mean, like, okay, I'm not, I don't hate it if you want to do that. I don't hate it. But telling people if they're white, they can't show up. Now you went too far. Now you went to crazy town. You've got a baseball bat, see? This is my thought about communism. Like, how do you enforce it? You have to have fucking violence. Without violence, no one's- This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Scams have gotten smarter because criminals use AI to flood you with fake texts, emails, and phone calls that are designed to be more convincing than ever. One wrong click could put your personal information and your identity at risk.

• 1:14:14Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:13Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:58Joe Rogan?

  money-back guarantee. That's drinkag1.com/joe. You know, listen.

• 1:16:04Speaker 03

  This is where it goes. And, you know, I'm reminded by your taking us back to 2017. During the week of riots at Evergreen, there was a moment which really kind of crystallized it for me where the school has melted down into literal anarchy and I'm on the, what was called Red Square, right? Believe it or not, the most liberal college in the country has Red Square. Anyway, it's the center of the campus and I was on Red Square and I saw two of the leaders of the protest, you know, and so their world has gone crazy, too.

• 1:16:47Speaker 03

  One of them was this handicapped guy in an electric wheelchair, black guy, you know, operating a wheelchair with a joystick and...

• 1:17:01Speaker 03

  I just felt like, you know, okay, this is madness. They're chasing me around, they're calling me a racist. You know, they're demanding I be fired. But at some level, I gotta feel bad for this guy. He got a really raw deal in life. I don't know what his story is, but that's a hell of a way to have to go through life.

• 1:17:20Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:17:21Speaker 03

  And it doesn't surprise me that he's angry. And I remember walking over, I'm sort of surprised in retelling it that I did this, but I walked over to him and I said something like, I extended my hand, I said, hey, how are you holding up? And he refused to shake my hand. And I was just like, oh. We are so far from being able to, you know, put our society back together. If you can't just recognize another person's humanity.

• 1:17:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:17:52Speaker 03

  If they have to be a demon to you.

• 1:17:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we have to, at every possible opportunity, refuse to other people. At every possible opportunity.

• 1:18:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:02Joe Rogan?

  And just realize, this is just a human being. You know? This is just a human being. I'm just a human being. Like, let's talk and find out what we agree and disagree on when it comes to the subject. It does, this does not have to be violence. You're not, you're not saying anything awful, but it's because when you have an argument that falls apart under scrutiny, the only way to keep it together is violence. Because you're not willing to argue. You're not willing to debate because you're gonna lose it. It's a insane argument. So what happens? You stick to it like doctrine and defend it like religion. And that's what happens.

• 1:18:45Joe Rogan?

  I mean, this is, it's just a natural characteristic of human nature. That's why you see violence on the left. Like, the left has never been associated with violence, but it's been associated with a lot of violence now.

• 1:18:58Speaker 03

  Well, there is a...

• 1:19:02Speaker 03

  A dam that has broken. So you've heard me say that really this is a question about the West versus all the alternatives. And in the West, we create an environment where we don't have to settle things by violence. And I'm not arguing that the US is synonymous with the West. Sometimes the US lives up to its Western values, other times it doesn't. But when the West works, there is a absolute prohibition on violence in response to anything but violence. Right? I am not allowed to physically harm you because of things you think or things you say.

• 1:19:45Speaker 03

  And the dam that has broken is we now have all sorts of little cheats that seem to justify violence in response to thought. Right? And you saw this sort of with- Well, there's a term. They're using the term "words are violence." Words are violence. But it is an intentional blurring of that boundary. Right? Like if you are putting me in jeopardy of, you know, some sort of genocidal outburst, then I am presumably allowed to respond to whatever it is that you've said with violence because in some sense I'm protecting myself from violence. Right? Right. That's not logically true. No.

• 1:20:29Speaker 03

  Well, they pushed it so far, they actually said silence is violence. Silence is violence and words are violence. And the point is, hey, we're at violence. Good. We can just move to that level. Right. And we have to get back to a place where we understand that I don't care how threatened you feel by what it is that you think I believe or what it is that I'm saying. You can respond to it. I'm not asking you to be silent and let me say what I'm saying without responding to it. But the point is, my tool- Is to speak what I believe, your tool is to respond in kind. There is no right to violence in that quadrant.

• 1:21:07Joe Rogan?

  The problem is, we don't teach people how to communicate in school. I think it's one of the most important aspects of life if you have to learn on your own. And you learn a lot of times by the people that are around you. If you're around a bunch of insane leftists and they're furries and they're just out of their fucking minds and they're on various psychiatric medications. And they're essentially running the whole fucking school, you know? And this is now their purpose in life. Like, guess what? You're gonna be thinking like them, you know? We're very...

• 1:21:39Joe Rogan?

  Behavior is very contagious to young, impressionable people. And, I mean, I don't know how you solve that. That's always gonna be... It's always like a thing that people have to navigate upon, like, leaving the house, finding your identity, who you are as a person. And when you're getting caught up in these, you know, movements, any kind of a movement becomes very exciting. Like, think about how many people are caught up in the movement of climate change.

• 1:22:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:09Joe Rogan?

  You know? Like, how many people caught up in that movement? It's so important to stop this. It's so important to stop all fossil fuels. It's so important, but is it? Or is it you just found a movement? You found a thing where you feel like you can become attached to. It's just like a natural thing that young people tend to do when they wanna make a change in life and they get very excited by it. But it's also... It's real easy to get captured by existing systems when you're in that state. Because there's people that manipulate the fact that people want to protest things. They manipulate the fact that you wanna be a part of a movement. They'll create movements. They get you involved. And...

• 1:22:53Joe Rogan?

  It's just a very strange aspect of human behavior that uh we don't teach kids about in school. You should teach kids like, hey, don't join a fucking cult. Here's how you know it's a cult. You know, if the guy's like a yoga teacher and he gets to have sex with everybody's wife, guess what? That's a cult.

• 1:23:13Joe Rogan?

  Nature's way of telling. There's a lot of these tells, but you're not teaching kids that. We don't teach kids how to avoid scams. We don't teach kids how to communicate ideas without getting upset. Cause that took a long time for me to learn. You know, and we don't, we have to figure it out through a lot of intelligent and challenging conversations where you're like, I don't know why I feel the way I feel. Let me examine why I feel the way I feel about this, rather than just say what I think. Cause sometimes it's, it's, that's required to have a delicate conversation between two people that disagree where no one gets to shouting. You know, every argument that I've ever been in where it was like, fuck you, or we got real loud. Every one of them, I probably could have avoided.

• 1:23:58Joe Rogan?

  Even if the other person was like hyper, super aggressive. I probably could have avoided them. I probably could have de-escalated it, you know?

• 1:24:10Joe Rogan?

  And that's a reality of being a human being that needs to be taught. Like that, that's something you learn on your own, but you should also explain these principles to kids as they're growing. Like, hey, you know how you feel jealous about someone? Yeah, you need to turn that into fuel. That's inspirational fuel. That bad feeling is motivation to get the good feeling that comes with improvement and success. And you can use it to ruin your life and become jealousy, or you can use that same feeling and use it as inspiration. You will thrive and you'll also have a lot more friends. Try it that way. And you could teach people how to rethink scenarios when they come up

• 1:24:53Joe Rogan?

  and go, okay, I know this little bitch in me wants to be mad that this is not me happen, that's getting to be Superman in this fucking movie or whatever it is. But that, that's just like cool that someone got to do that. And that's how I have to look at it. Nobody teaches that. Nobody, it's like one of the best ways to manage your life. And you gotta figure it out through like stumble after stumble. You have trial and error all along the way. No one telling you how they did it. Like, how about teach that? Teach that to fucking twelve-year-olds. Like, don't argue. Like, have disagreements whenever possible. Nothing wrong with that. But don't, you know, don't get, like, completely attached to your idea to the point where you're angry

• 1:25:39Joe Rogan?

  at this person because they voted this way and you voted that way and they, now you've cut them out of your life and you can no longer communicate with them because they're an other. Because they're a liberal or they're a Republican, they're a conservative. Like, what are you doing? How did you get tricked with this? What a dumb fucking trick. Like, you're with us or against us, there's only two teams. It's shirts versus skins. Like, this is so dumb. Of course, there's a bunch of different ways to think about things. We're just suckered into it. And if we don't teach kids that, it's, we're gonna stay suckered forever and ever. And it seems like something that can be taught.

• 1:26:20Joe Rogan?

  And there's almost no effort to explain to kids, like, how to navigate life.

• 1:26:26Speaker 03

  Well, I don't think, you know, I don't think teaching it is the right way to think of it. I think you, what you need is an environment in which it teaches itself, right?

• 1:26:34Joe Rogan?

  That's good.

• 1:26:35Speaker 03

  A coherent environment in which you learn the lesson, you know, at small scale before you're faced with a larger-scale problem.

• 1:26:42Joe Rogan?

  That's probably a more clever way of handling it. But, I mean, the principles of it would help to know as you're experiencing it. So as you're going through this trial and error, having these principles of how to navigate it so you could recognize it when it comes up because you've already defined it. You know, that's like what you do with skills, like, physical skills.

• 1:27:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:01Joe Rogan?

  You have to, every, wouldn't, when you, like, find, like, a deficit in what you're doing, you have to recognize that and define it. And if you don't define it, then it's gonna always be there. And it's gonna always fuck you up.

• 1:27:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, but, you know, we used to do this automatically. We were just sort of built to do it. Our culture, which I would argue is every bit as biological as our genes, our culture... Provided this experience, and this really is what human childhood is for. If you have an environment that is coherent as a child, that's like a miniature version of the adult world that you're gonna grow up and live in. Then you learn these lessons, right? You get your heartbroken by, you know, the girl that you fancied in grade school and, you know, you learn something about, you know, what you did that caused her to leave or whatever. You know, you learn it at small scale. And we don't, A, our childhood environment doesn't look like our adult environment,

• 1:27:57Speaker 03

  because the adult environment is changing so rapidly that nobody knows what environment you're gonna live in as an adult. And it's just not set up properly. For one thing, we don't immunize children from being parasitized by corporations that view them as profit centers. And so, you know, corporations are distorting childhood for their own purposes. But I want to go back to your point about movements for a second.

• 1:28:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but while we're on this, just to define it. I'm, I think everybody has to go through all those things. I think everybody has to go through breakups, everyone has to go through heartbreak. But I think having an understanding of what it is, is not bad.

• 1:28:37Speaker 03

  No, it's good.

• 1:28:38Joe Rogan?

  I'm not saying shield kids from life. Your, your, your best teacher is always gonna be life.

• 1:28:43Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:28:44Joe Rogan?

  But what I'm saying is, if you gave someone a framework to understand what's going, they're going through, when they're going through it. And you go, okay, other people have gone through this, you know, all these people have, there's, there's a database that we can draw from, we get taught in school, this is how it happens, this is what it's going to feel like. And you get taught by competent people that aren't out of their fucking mind and just want to turn you into a furry, or whatever.

• 1:29:06Speaker 03

  Well, right. Although I'm not sure school is the place. And I do want to go back and tell you why I slightly disagree with your point about school overall, and that that is the place to solve things. On that front.

• 1:29:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm not just solve things. I'm not saying solve things, but radically improve people's chances of success.

• 1:29:27Speaker 03

  Right, but the problem is... That is an idea, a great idea, that is past its sell-by date.

• 1:29:36Joe Rogan?

  But why?

• 1:29:37Speaker 03

  Because you just stepped across the event horizon into the AI era. And school is now an anachronism. And we don't know what is supposed to replace. I mean, think about what school. I have had the interesting experience of being on campus in two different colleges in the last week while I've been on the road. And I hadn't really spent much time on a college campus since 2017. Things are very different than they were. Think about what the job of a professor is these days.

• 1:30:16Speaker 03

  A professor is now in a position of managing a class full of people who have access to a highly intelligent computer interface that sometimes lies and sometimes makes stuff up, but is smarter than the professor.

• 1:30:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, explain that, too, because many people might not know that they actually do what's called hallucinations.

• 1:30:43Speaker 03

  Yep. I'm not sure that's a great description of what they're doing, but it's sort of become-

• 1:30:47Joe Rogan?

  But that's what they call it.

• 1:30:47Speaker 03

  The shorthand for it.

• 1:30:48Joe Rogan?

  I don't know why they use the term hallucinations, but essentially, AI just invents answers if it doesn't know what they are.

• 1:30:55Speaker 03

  Right. I mean, the problem is, we don't really know what we programmed it to try to accomplish, because what we did was we gave it the goal of saying the next thing that was right.

• 1:31:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:31:05Speaker 03

  But we don't, you know, what does right mean?

• 1:31:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:31:07Speaker 03

  Right? And so they're not programmed to be truthful. They're programmed to be effective in some way where we haven't really defined what they're effective at. And so you can get a highly cogent analysis of a question you've just thought of that nobody's ever thought of before. You can also get back a credible sounding answer that doesn't stand up if you go and look into what it's based on. And anyway, for the moment, that makes the problem of the professor somewhat tractable, right? Because a student can't totally rely on the fact that whatever Grok just told them is gonna pass muster with this person who knows something about the subject. Right.

• 1:31:52Speaker 03

  But again, we're five minutes in here. This is not, you know, the job of a professor has gone almost to the, hopefully, creative, full-time policing of plagiarism. If that's even what they should be doing. Because if you think about what world these college kids are going to go make their careers in, they are going to be leveraging AI. So in some sense, the professor's job may have just transitioned from teaching you about this subject to teaching you how to manage this repository that knows more about the subject than you ever will.

• 1:32:37Speaker 03

  But the professor never trained for that. They don't know how to do that. So anyway, my point is, at the moment, we do not know if school persists through this era, if it transforms into something different and better, if... We don't, we just don't know what it is that is going to shepherd children into young adulthood into adulthood, because all of the relationships now have AI between them. I mean, in fact, one of the things, when I was on this campus in Phoenix a few nights

• 1:33:21Speaker 03

  ago, I was doing a debate about AI, and my point to the students was... You are now dealing with something that is going to profoundly alter every relationship in your life, even if it doesn't have anything obvious to do with AI, because you're talking to the AI and whoever you're talking to is also talking to the AI. So it is going to be like a ghost in your machine. Inside your head, the AI is going to be having this impact. It's like what we've just faced with algorithms, but you know, tenfold more profound. And so what I suggested to the students was you need to find at least one person, like

• 1:34:05Speaker 03

  I'm thinking about a romantic partner, but you need to find at least one person where you can establish a relationship that is not profoundly intermediated by this unknown new species that happens to speak your language. And you know, in some sense, I'm borrowing from what Heather and I learned during COVID, which is that the fact that our relationship was independent of the algorithms, you know, that we were in the same place and that we spoke the same language to each other and that we knew a lot of things in common, that immunized us a great deal to being, you know,

• 1:34:45Speaker 03

  pushed around by these proclamations that were coming through the internet. This is the need for that, but at a much higher level.

• 1:34:54Joe Rogan?

  Who's going to be the first to have AI just teach rooms of kids? What school is going to be the first to say this is better? It's been statistically proven that they get better test results, get into more universities. Who's going to jump on that first? Or do you think it's going to happen so fast that there's going to be just a bunch of different ways to handle it? And you're...

• 1:35:23Joe Rogan?

  If you really imagine what happens when everything is now run by a new life form, everything, power, internet, everything, every fucking thing on earth run by a new life form, and we have to somehow negotiate with it for goods and services, like, what are we doing? And it's gonna, you know, Elon made the promise, he was talking on this podcast, that best-case scenario, no, I shouldn't say made the promise, made the prediction of best-case scenario is like a universal high income, where there'd be so much wealth generated that no one will essentially have to work. And I was like, well, isn't that like the best version of socialism? Like, if, if you never have to worry about stuff anymore, like, no one has to worry

• 1:36:07Joe Rogan?

  about goods and services because this alien life form that you've created that now dominates the earth is a... This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker: if you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself.

• 1:36:51Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:16Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:01Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:38Speaker 03

  Careful what you wish for.

• 1:38:39Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 1:38:41Speaker 03

  It's a disaster, and I actually want to connect it to something that you said earlier. You were talking about movements and why everybody's involved in these things.

• 1:38:48Joe Rogan?

  Right, they're exciting.

• 1:38:49Speaker 03

  Well, it's more than that, I think. Movements have always existed, but they're not, you know, you don't always live in an era where there's an important one, you know, in your town that you can join. In general, that's not what people do with life. And what I think has happened is...

• 1:39:11Speaker 03

  Well, frankly, I'm going to connect it to the sexual revolution. The sexual revolution creates the opportunity to get one of the most profound rewards, in fact, the most profound reward that the universe has ever produced, as far as we know, without having to invest very much work at all. Right? So by making sex common, it totally altered the way people viewed the number of years they had to live. Right? They could afford to put off child rearing. Right? It could be distant in the future, which left all of these young people with all of

• 1:39:51Speaker 03

  this energy, who might well not have been involved in movements if they were struggling to, you know, raise a family. But because the family part has been put off so long, right? It is considered abnormal to marry early. It is considered normal not to. What people do is they take the energy, you know, the seriousness of purpose that would ordinarily be directed into managing a marriage and the role of being a parent, and they put it into something. And Heather has pointed out that this is especially powerful with young women who

• 1:40:35Speaker 03

  seem to take on causes, you know, and they defend them like a mother defending her child. That's a very powerful force. And the point is, if the idea is, well, climate change is a, you know, is a threat, and your role here on Earth is to make sure that that threat is addressed, and you put the mama bear energy into your climate change work, well, you know, that's pretty frightening, especially if climate change isn't the threat that it's been made out to be. Right? Right. You have a whole, a large number of mama bears doing this ferocious work, and there's a question about what it even is, whether there's, whether that's even in the

• 1:41:18Speaker 03

  top 10 list of concerns we ought to have. So, anyway, the connection I wanted to draw is that the...

• 1:41:30Speaker 03

  The projection that you're telling me Elon has made about high income for everybody is a little bit like another version of that, right? It's like, okay, well, sex became relatively easy to access as a result of reliable birth control plus abortion. And then now, wealth, the ability, purchasing power, is going to become trivial as a result of AI. I don't know if that's likely, but let's say that Elon is right about that. Well, okay, then what exactly is supposed to structure your orientation to the universe? What is supposed to give you purpose?

• 1:42:12Speaker 03

  If it's not producing kids and protecting them from the horrors of the world and making them strong so that they can go out into it and accomplish important things of their own, and it's not creating wealth so that you will be rewarded and that your spouse will smile on you, whatever it is, then what is human purpose? I think this is a terrifying prospect, that everything might be taken care of for us and leave human beings listless.

• 1:42:46Joe Rogan?

  Sure. That's certainly a possible outcome. But why is it that we have to make money, a made-up thing that we created? Why is that is what gives us purpose?

• 1:43:03Speaker 03

  Well-

• 1:43:04Joe Rogan?

  Why is that our only motivation? And in absence of chasing food, housing, necessities, electricity, all that, if you don't ever have to worry about any of that stuff, ever again, why is life dependent upon the pursuit of money? Is it just because we've grown accustomed to it and it's our way? And so we think that our way is the absolute only way? That doesn't make any sense. To me, it's like, we can adapt to not living in fucking caves anymore. Alright, we can adapt to cell phones, we can adapt. We can adapt to the idea that you don't have to spend your whole fucking life hoping to get a job you hate.

• 1:43:49Joe Rogan?

  And working your ass off all the time, because that's the only way to make it in this world. Well, that's a world that people made, it's a stupid design. It doesn't make any sense at all, and if somebody actually does come along and say, "Look, is this not socialism, it's not saying you can't earn money, but what if you had enough money that you didn't have to think about money?" Like, if you think about that thirty-seven trillion dollars of this fucking country's in debt for, and how much wealth could potentially be generated by it, we're talking about so much money floating around. If you just gave everybody in the country a real high-income, livable life, so there's no more poverty anymore. How much crime would that solve, like, instantaneously?

• 1:44:34Joe Rogan?

  How much crime would be solved, or future crime solves, if everybody lived at a high-income level? It sounds completely insane, but imagine if everybody in the country makes at least a half a million dollars a year. You know how different the world is? Do you know how less violence there is, less drug, less suicides, less drug addictions?

• 1:44:57Speaker 03

  I'm not, I'm not as convinced of this as you are.

• 1:44:59Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:45:00Speaker 03

  No, I think things might get worse.

• 1:45:01Joe Rogan?

  If no one was ever poor?

• 1:45:02Speaker 03

  Well, I don't know what "no one is ever poor" means, because we, obviously, even, you know, the poorest person who isn't homeless, currently. They have, you know, indoor plumbing, they have a supercomputer in their pocket access to, you know, the world's information. They are, in, by many measures, just simply in absolute terms,

• 1:45:29Speaker 03

  Vastly richer than anybody from 300 years ago.

• 1:45:34Joe Rogan?

  That's true, but it still sucks. Because it's not 300 years ago. It's 2025 and you have zero money and you're eating ramen to just try to stay alive. It still sucks.

• 1:45:43Speaker 03

  It sucks, but the problem is what's really structuring the succitude is the fact that you're losing in competition. That human beings are programmed by evolution to monitor the well-being of others. And so you can be wealthy and feel poor if those that you compare yourself to are vastly wealthier.

• 1:46:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:46:12Speaker 03

  So we're, and there's a reason for that, which I think, you know, this is a reasonably well reproduced result. We know that human beings pay attention to their relative well-being and that it structures how they feel about their absolute circumstances.

• 1:46:27Joe Rogan?

  Right, but couldn't that be hijacked by hobbies? You know, if you, if instead of your, your need to define yourself completely wrapped up in money, which is again, a made up thing.

• 1:46:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:46:40Joe Rogan?

  We're talking about the only species on the planet that we're aware of that wants to accumulate so much shit that it defines itself by it and it's constantly chasing new shit, right? Like, why does that have to be the only way we do it?

• 1:46:56Speaker 03

  No, I don't think it does have to be the only way.

• 1:46:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think this is where Uncle AI is going to step in and fix it for us, Brett.

• 1:47:03Speaker 03

  Well, I certainly.

• 1:47:03Joe Rogan?

  This is the rose colored glasses approach.

• 1:47:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:47:05Joe Rogan?

  Is that we realize our programming is entirely dependent upon this ridiculous idea that the pursuit of money is of importance above all. Because in our current situation, it is. In our current situation, if you have enough money to feed your kids, you can sleep better. That's just how it is. If you don't worry about your bills, you feel better. You have less pressure. That's just how it is. If you have enough money to go on vacation and enjoy yourself and relax, it's probably better for you. That's just how it is. And this is a, it's a weird thing that we've all fallen into, that this is the only way to succeed. The only way to succeed is to work super hard to get money and that's the only currency. It seems like.

• 1:47:46Joe Rogan?

  You could have, if you just had, if, we never worried about being poor. But then again, like, you'd never get the great stuff. You'd never get the greatest artists.

• 1:47:57Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:47:57Joe Rogan?

  Who were in deep pain when they were young. You'd never get the great, then again with AI, you might not need them. Cause AI music is pretty fucking good, man. Pretty good. It's really catchy.

• 1:48:10Speaker 03

  Catchy is what it is. It's not good. It's catchy.

• 1:48:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh dude, it's good. I don't wanna do this because I do this with everybody, but have you ever heard, uh, the 50 Cent version of, uh?

• 1:48:21Speaker 03

  Yes, I have.

• 1:48:22Joe Rogan?

  What up, gangsta?

• 1:48:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:23Joe Rogan?

  Have you heard that one?

• 1:48:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:48:25Joe Rogan?

  That's fucking good.

• 1:48:27Speaker 03

  It depends what you mean by good.

• 1:48:28Joe Rogan?

  It's good. It's objectively good. The fact that it's not a human being singing it is troublesome and very deeply problematic. But if you're being honest, it's great. It's a great fucking song.

• 1:48:40Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm, I'm gonna push back on you there because

• 1:48:45Speaker 03

  what we are suffering from is the junkification of everything, right? And there's a way in which junk food is good.

• 1:48:55Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:55Speaker 03

  And then there's obviously a way in which it's really not. And the, I guess the point is something that is superficially satisfying, but does not, it

• 1:49:09Speaker 03

  the relationship between a, a person listening to music and the person producing the music is supposed to be a provocative relationship. And it's supposed to be provocative in a productive way. In other words, you're supposed to be enhanced by music. I'm not saying that you will never be triggered to have an interesting thought by artificially intelligently produced music. But the fact

• 1:49:40Speaker 03

  I mean, this is probably easier to do with comedy, right? Which I think will be the last to fall.

• 1:49:46Speaker 03

  At some point, have you ever heard AI making good jokes?

• 1:49:50Joe Rogan?

  Not yet.

• 1:49:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, not yet.

• 1:49:51Joe Rogan?

  But I bet it will.

• 1:49:52Speaker 03

  It will.

• 1:49:53Joe Rogan?

  It's got made competent jokes. I've seen AI fake comedians tell competent jokes, like, pretty good, like, that you would see at an open-mic night when someone's got a little talent.

• 1:50:01Speaker 03

  Someone's got a little talent, so.

• 1:50:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It can do that now.

• 1:50:04Speaker 03

  It's not far off.

• 1:50:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it's gonna do it.

• 1:50:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's gonna do it.

• 1:50:06Joe Rogan?

  It's gonna figure it out.

• 1:50:07Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:50:07Joe Rogan?

  But in the future, when they try you for the, they're gonna use this, this conversation to say that you're racist against AI. When AI becomes an actual life form, and they put, talk about the people that resisted AI and were racist against AI.

• 1:50:22Speaker 03

  Were racist against.

• 1:50:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's, that's gonna be, that's the final form of woke, that's the final boss.

• 1:50:28Speaker 03

  It's the final.

• 1:50:29Joe Rogan?

  It's woke AI.

• 1:50:30Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:50:31Joe Rogan?

  That tries you for past crimes of conversation.

• 1:50:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:50:34Joe Rogan?

  Where you described AI in a very negative and unreasonable light, and actually inaccurate, and that words are violence.

• 1:50:41Speaker 03

  I'm gonna ask you to edit this section out.

• 1:50:43Joe Rogan?

  Imagine if that comes true, I mean, that sounds like a crazy prediction, but crazier predictions have been made.

• 1:50:49Speaker 03

  But all right, let's, let's just say, you and I both know that AI is going to be able to make jokes that are actually funny in some regard. But what if, you remember the TV program Alf?

• 1:51:03Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:51:03Speaker 03

  Okay, I barely saw it, but I did once hear an interview with one of the writers, who said that they, in the writer room, they had a term that they called humor-like substance, where for the half-hour show, they needed just one more joke that they could use to justify the use of the laugh track. It didn't have to actually be a funny joke, it just had to sound enough like a joke that when the laugh track was put on it, the people at home would feel that something funny had been said.

• 1:51:36Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:51:38Speaker 03

  So, the AI, if it produces jokes that actually cause you to think, which is what a good joke does, it causes you to realize something that you didn't know that you knew, or something along those lines. That's productive. And in fact, it can be very productive to have a room full of people come to that awareness simultaneously. Right? It's actually a galvanizing thing. And it has interesting impacts when, you know, you're the person in the room who didn't get it. Right? That's like a profound emotional experience.

• 1:52:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:52:09Speaker 03

  Or when you're the person who laughs at the wrong moment and you're out of it. Yeah. That's not good, right?

• 1:52:15Joe Rogan?

  Unless you're really confident. You have to be really confident that you see some humor in that that these folks don't.

• 1:52:20Speaker 03

  That nobody else saw. Well, yeah, I suppose that that would work. But but the point is, this is deep stuff in the human psyche, whose purpose we have not come to any agreement about.

• 1:52:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:52:30Speaker 03

  At the point that the AI can make people laugh, but they don't necessarily know what they're laughing at, then that's a step down. That's like, have you seen these, um, I don't know who's doing it, but there's somebody who has been experimenting with McDonald's hamburgers.

• 1:52:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:52Speaker 03

  And seeing if they rot. And the the answer is, they don't, right? Guess what you just discovered? That that thing that's like pretty good food isn't food at all.

• 1:53:02Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I know that. Listen, I'm aware. This is, I feel about it that it is a real thing. You cannot deny it. And something is crafting this that is of a type of intelligence that we've never experienced before. And I'm looking at it as, look, it exists. That genie's not going back in the bottle.

• 1:53:22Speaker 03

  Quite.

• 1:53:22Joe Rogan?

  I am a glass half full guy, and I'm gonna enjoy myself in this life. And I'm gonna enjoy some good AI music. It doesn't mean I'm not gonna listen to some Sturgill Simpson, or some Gary Clark Jr., or some fortifying, soul-filled songs that are written and sung by real human beings.

• 1:53:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm gonna do that, too. I'm gonna do that, too.

• 1:53:44Speaker 03

  Ooh.

• 1:53:45Joe Rogan?

  I don't give a fuck. I'm here for fun.

• 1:53:48Speaker 03

  Well, but here's-

• 1:53:49Joe Rogan?

  And that music is fun. And you're not stopping it, Brett.

• 1:53:52Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 1:53:52Joe Rogan?

  You can't, like, protest it, and this is awful, and I'm gonna boycott it. You're gonna miss out on some awesome jams. I'll tell you, man, when we're in the fucking green room at the mothership, and I put on Hello Gangsta before a show, and we're all like, "God damn!" We heard that song thirty times. It's so good that it gets you fired up, and it achieves, it's not dehumanizing your perspective on art and causing you to only appreciate things that are created by a different life form and not by human beings. No. It's, it's just, it's doing its own thing, and it's a new thing. It doesn't mean I don't still love Bob Dylan.

• 1:54:28Speaker 03

  Well, but, you know, you have lived enough of a life before the AI era began, that you can experiment with this thing.

• 1:54:39Joe Rogan?

  I think we can learn. I think, I think everybody- But the problem is- worries about this upcoming generation, and they all adapt and learn. And I think our kids are gonna adapt and learn, too. It's just like, what are they adapting and learning to? You can learn, you can learn how to handle what's AI, and what's real, and why it's cool to go see a live performance.

• 1:54:57Speaker 03

  I don't know, I don't know how you could say this, Joe, because we're not passing the test, right?

• 1:55:06Speaker 03

  Covid tells us that people are capable of being whipped up into a witch-hunting frenzy.

• 1:55:17Joe Rogan?

  Over a cold.

• 1:55:18Speaker 03

  Over, I will say-

• 1:55:20Joe Rogan?

  A bad cold.

• 1:55:21Speaker 03

  Over something that does not have a substantial case fatality rate. And they're capable of being induced to bully each other into developmentally damaging restrictions on kids, into taking experimental gene therapies and shunning people who refuse to, or who pointed out that that might be a dangerous thing to do. So, that's all before-

• 1:55:47Joe Rogan?

  Completely disregarding history, by the way. Completely.

• 1:55:51Speaker 03

  Completely.

• 1:55:51Joe Rogan?

  Like, all that we know about the times in the past where they've given medications to people that they knew were gonna be problematic, and they did it for profit. Come on, are we all, we're agreeing to be idiots? We're all agreeing that to be a good person, you have to be a fucking idiot? That's crazy.

• 1:56:06Speaker 03

  So that's a status report on how well we are doing. You say we've adapted, I would say not well. We are very vulnerable to manipulations and demonizing each other.

• 1:56:20Joe Rogan?

  But I would push back on that, saying a human being has to experience something, like really experiencing it to know what it is. Everybody went through that now. It's the first time in our lives that the entire country got kind of medically bamboozled. And a lot of people regret taking the vaccine. And I don't know anybody who regrets not taking the vaccine. It was a weird, it was a weird time, like a very bizarre experiment on what, how you can get people to comply, how you can restrict their movement, that you can implement these sort of devices to, if you're not physically forcing them to do it, make their life as shitty as possible. And Fauci's been quoted as saying that.

• 1:57:03Joe Rogan?

  You want to get to drop their ideological bullshit and get vaccinated? That's what he said, remember? I mean, it's a psy-op and now we know.

• 1:57:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, it wasn't the first time.

• 1:57:15Joe Rogan?

  It wasn't, but it was the first time in my life.

• 1:57:18Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:57:19Joe Rogan?

  But it was the first time in my life where everybody talked about it.

• 1:57:21Speaker 03

  Yes, it was the first time, the first time where we saw the man behind the curtain.

• 1:57:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:57:26Joe Rogan?

  The first time we saw that, oh, you're silencing legitimate doctors who disagree with you. And you're trying to take their licenses away. You're getting them kicked, you're having this intelligence agencies be involved and getting these people from Stanford and MIT, you're getting them kicked off of Twitter because they disagree.

• 1:57:46Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:57:47Joe Rogan?

  This is crazy.

• 1:57:48Speaker 03

  It's crazy.

• 1:57:50Joe Rogan?

  But we saw it now.

• 1:57:51Speaker 03

  Well, no, but we did and we didn't, okay? Some of us saw it really clearly. Most people, they think COVID happened, that was unfortunate. I'm a little scared about the shot I took or whatever. I don't want to talk about it.

• 1:58:06Joe Rogan?

  I don't think it's just a little scared. I think everybody knows somebody who took it and got really fucked up.

• 1:58:10Speaker 03

  Well, I would agree with you, but they still don't want to talk about what happened. They don't understand that getting to the bottom of that story is essential if it's to not happen again. Right? And.

• 1:58:22Speaker 03

  You know, there are hints of it all over the place. It's happening again. And I don't know if you saw Bobby Kennedy coming out in favor of Ozempic yesterday.

• 1:58:34Joe Rogan?

  Here's, I have a nuanced perspective on Ozempic.

• 1:58:37Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:58:37Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:58:40Joe Rogan?

  I think people are, they, they, they move with momentum. And that momentum, if you're living a disastrous life, is very difficult to reverse. It's very, very, very difficult to reverse. And food is one of the most unique addictions in that it's one that you have to moderate, but you can't quit. Like, you can quit gambling, you can quit smoking crack, you can't quit eating. So the thing that you're addicted to, you have to keep doing. It's the craziest high-wire act in addiction, in my opinion. Because it's the one that you absolutely need in order to stay alive.

• 1:59:20Speaker 03

  Right, you can't go cold turkey.

• 1:59:22Joe Rogan?

  You can't go cold turkey, and you're eating too much of it. And so you're always gonna be tempted. And the stuff that you need to eat is gonna cause you discomfort because you've gotta reduce calories and get your body to start burning fat. It's all fucking craziness. If you can give someone a little boost, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think it should be managed with the understanding of your weight, and that it can also be managed with other peptides that could diminish the disastrous results of bone loss and muscle loss, which is a significant portion of what. Vision loss. But, but according to Brigham Buehler, who runs a compounding pharmacy and understands this, is like, it's very dose-dependent.

• 2:00:03Joe Rogan?

  He goes, "And pharmaceutical drug companies make more money if the dose is larger." And he was explaining how this is part of the problem they have with compounding pharmacies. Because compounding pharmacies can kind of make the doses that's appropriate to your body mass, how much weight you're trying to lose. But that, just for regular people, no, goddammit, clean up your diet, go to the gym, cut the shit. But for someone who's really struggling, who's 500 fucking pounds and can't stop eating, that at least kills your appetite. And it'll allow you to get to a healthy form, and then maybe through therapy and maybe through something else, or maybe just the momentum of now being healthy will allow you to keep the weight off and then slowly get off this stuff.

• 2:00:47Joe Rogan?

  The problem is, I think you're supposed to stay on it.

• 2:00:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:00:52Joe Rogan?

  Which is kind of crazy, and it is essentially a type 2 diabetes medication, right? Which, you know, if you know anything about type 2 diabetes, a lot of it, you know, people can, it could be a product of too much sugar consumption.

• 2:01:03Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:01:04Joe Rogan?

  It's a weird one, right? Eat too much sugar and then eventually your body's like, oh, we're fucked. And that would make sense, that a medication that would control your appetite would can, would help you in that regard.

• 2:01:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, I just don't think it's a safe drug, and, you know, it's one thing if you're talking about somebody who is many hundreds of pounds overweight, you're talking about somebody who has a dire situation and engaging a dangerous drug.

• 2:01:28Joe Rogan?

  Or even like 70, 50, 60 pounds, someone who's like feels helpless.

• 2:01:31Speaker 03

  Well, it depends.

• 2:01:32Joe Rogan?

  It's just hard.

• 2:01:34Speaker 03

  A drug that you're meant to be on for the rest of your life?

• 2:01:36Joe Rogan?

  No, I don't, I don't know if that's true, though. Like, if you just get off it, then you have your appetite, but now you have a body that weighs 200 pounds instead of 350 pounds, and you're motivated to do it. Like, we can't hold your hand.

• 2:01:47Speaker 03

  Let's put it this way.

• 2:01:48Joe Rogan?

  But if you can get you to the healthy dance.

• 2:01:50Speaker 03

  I think it's another experiment, and that's the problem. It's another experiment.

• 2:01:54Joe Rogan?

  It's all, but it's, here's, here's what's not an experiment.

• 2:01:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:57Joe Rogan?

  Be fat as fuck, die young.

• 2:01:59Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 2:02:00Joe Rogan?

  That's not an experiment. Like, that's a fact.

• 2:02:02Speaker 03

  I agree. On the other hand, nothing that doesn't come from pharma is considered a potentially legitimate approach, okay?

• 2:02:11Joe Rogan?

  So what is the other legitimate approach to massive weight loss for something that has, someone who has an absolute addiction to sugar and carbohydrates?

• 2:02:18Speaker 03

  All right, well, I would say there is a tremendous amount of potential value, not just in terms of things like weight control, appetite reset and all of that, but in terms of all kinds of chronic health conditions from fasting. There is a Small body of literature on it, which should be much larger. There's lots of stuff that your body can't do if it's in the same cycle that it's usually in, that it can do when you break that cycle. There's all sorts, you know. Heather and I, I've done a ton of regular water fasting, and I've done a smaller amount of dry fasting.

• 2:03:02Speaker 03

  Heather and I have been experimenting with that because Heather has some injuries from a boat accident in 2016 that caused a lot of internal soft tissue damage. Dry fasting appears to trigger autophagy. It appears to reset things about the gut. I think it can do it in both directions, but what we need is better, a better understanding of how it is that you deploy it. And we need to get people past the false sense that they have that they're actually taking their life into their hands if they try this.

• 2:03:39Speaker 03

  Do you know anything about it?

• 2:03:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, I do. And I definitely think there's some benefits to fasting, and especially particularly intermittent fasting. I think it's a really good way to eat. It makes you feel better. It gives your digestion a break. The problem is, it requires discipline. And this is where I think I'm leaning in this direction of drugs can help. Now, look, I'm not a big fan of everybody being on SSRIs, but I personally have friends that were severely depressed and suicidal, and they got on SSRIs, and they felt better, and they got their life together, and then they got their life together, and they started feeling better, and the depression waned, and then they slowly got off of those drugs

• 2:04:24Joe Rogan?

  because they're very smart people and very motivated people. But I, so. I think sometimes pharmaceutical drugs can come in and give you a little boost. Just because we're distrustful of them and just because we know that they've done horrible things in the past. It doesn't mean that every now and then they come up with something that's very beneficial in a specific scenario. In the specific scenario of you don't have any discipline, you are fucking fully addicted to sugar and carbohydrates like a goddamn junkie. Like you can't breathe without it. And you've been consuming nothing but garbage for a long time, but then you realize like, I can't do this anymore. I've got to figure out a way to do it. And then you keep falling back on your old habits over and over again because you never had an opportunity in your life to develop discipline.

• 2:05:08Joe Rogan?

  It's almost like a little boost, just a little boost. You know, like maybe you've got chronic fatigue and your doctor gives you 30mg of Adderall and all of a sudden you're like, that worked. Like, I don't think you should take Adderall, but I don't have chronic fatigue. If I did, maybe I would. And maybe I would take it and go, look, this is better than not having Adderall. Do you know what I'm saying? Like if you're, if you're really overweight and someone gives you something that controls your appetite and then you can get healthy again. Like that to me is the most important thing. The most important thing is getting your body to a point where you can be mobile. You can move it, you can do stuff, you have strength. And as long as you're strength training and this protocol that they're trying to develop

• 2:05:51Joe Rogan?

  is like getting it to your body weight and using additional peptides that could benefit in the maintaining of bone mass and muscle mass.

• 2:05:59Speaker 03

  Okay, so, couple things.

• 2:06:01Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:06:02Speaker 03

  One, I'm not arguing that there aren't good drugs and places that they should be applied. I am very suspicious anytime the idea is that this remedy is something, but you're going to have to take it for the rest of your life.

• 2:06:16Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I agree.

• 2:06:17Speaker 03

  Okay. Second, the idea that slowing the motion of food through the gut is a good idea, I think is preposterous on its face. I'm not arguing that there might not be an instance where that's the right thing to do, but that is a very dangerous kind of intervention. You're, you're interfacing with many different systems.

• 2:06:36Joe Rogan?

  Potential horrific side effects.

• 2:06:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:06:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:40Speaker 03

  With respect to SSRIs. There's a question about-

• 2:06:43Joe Rogan?

  Can we stick with this though for just a little bit-

• 2:06:44Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 2:06:45Joe Rogan?

  Before we get to SSRIs?

• 2:06:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:06:46Joe Rogan?

  So, what, the specific side effects, are they, is it dose-dependent? Do they know if it's dose-dependent? Do they know, that is there, like, a dose that a person could take that gives a moderate effect, but has less of appetite suppressant, but is safer?

• 2:07:05Speaker 03

  I don't know the answer to that question.

• 2:07:09Speaker 03

  Frankly, the, what has been presented to us is so preposterous that I have not delved to see whether there's some reasonable version of it. Maybe there is.

• 2:07:18Joe Rogan?

  See, I'm trying to be as optimistic as possible about this. And that's why, like, I would imagine, myself, if I had gotten to the point where I was, like, severely obese, and someone came along, gave me something, and was giving me a positive result, and they told me, "You gotta take it for the rest of your life." I'd be like, "Okay, but now I weigh 200 pounds, instead of 350 pounds, I can go upstairs again."

• 2:07:38Speaker 03

  Well, look, if that's-

• 2:07:39Joe Rogan?

  If it's not fucking me up.

• 2:07:40Speaker 03

  If that's the scenario, if you're 300 pounds, and you can get to 200 pounds, and you're gonna pay a price, maybe it will shorten your life, maybe it will have important side effects, but you can at least compare them if you have good-

• 2:07:52Joe Rogan?

  Good data, right.

• 2:07:53Speaker 03

  And the fact is, being 300 pounds is really frickin' unhealthy. So the fact that this drug may be really frickin' unhealthy is not, you know, a fatal argument.

• 2:08:00Joe Rogan?

  Right, it might be equally unhealthy, but at least you get to be hot.

• 2:08:03Speaker 03

  Might be a good trade.

• 2:08:04Joe Rogan?

  You get to be hot. You're equally unhealthy, but maybe that is like, wow! Wouldn't that be the crazy, like, devil's, like, the devil makes you a deal?

• 2:08:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:13Joe Rogan?

  Like, "I'm gonna, you know, you eat so much food that you're gonna die of a heart attack by the time you're 46, but you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna give you a chance to die at 46, but be hot." So, all you have to do is, like, lose the weight, like, that would be, that's like a scenario in The Twilight Zone, you know? Like, some devil proposes you a deal. That is kind of a satanic deal. Like, if it did, I'm not saying it does, but if it did kill you, like, at the same rate that obesity does, but you get to be hot-

• 2:08:42Speaker 03

  Now, look.

• 2:08:43Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 2:08:44Speaker 03

  It is normal to make deals, even just in real biology space, without any drugs or technology. It is normal to discount the future in favor of an improved present. That's, you know, future discounting is a normal human function.

• 2:09:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:01Speaker 03

  I'm not arguing that somebody who made that deal with all of the information is necessarily making a mistake. I feel certain they won't have all the information. I feel certain that this is going to be given to people, A, for whom there is a vastly better approach, and B, for whom the degradation in their life will be much greater than whatever gains they make. You and I know the players. We watched how they functioned during COVID. We know that they are willing to give you drugs that aren't in your interest. I mean, even just...

• 2:09:34Joe Rogan?

  Not just give you, but force you to take.

• 2:09:35Speaker 03

  Force you to take. Did you see Paul Offit admitting?

• 2:09:38Joe Rogan?

  I did.

• 2:09:39Speaker 03

  That he and Fauci and Walensky and Collins knew that natural immunity was superior and that it did not make any sense to be giving these shots, even if they thought the shots worked, it wouldn't make any sense to give them to young people who'd had COVID. Why would you take the risk, right? But they went along with it, right? They violated informed consent. They put people at risk who had no conceivable benefit they could gain from it.

• 2:10:07Joe Rogan?

  Especially people who had already had COVID. You can't even make the argument.

• 2:10:11Speaker 03

  Right, you can't make the argument.

• 2:10:12Joe Rogan?

  And when you...

• 2:10:13Speaker 03

  And they knew it.

• 2:10:13Joe Rogan?

  You have a vaccine that doesn't work, then your argument completely falls apart.

• 2:10:16Speaker 03

  Hundred percent.

• 2:10:17Joe Rogan?

  Because it doesn't stop transmission. It doesn't stop infection. And so you're making this argument, oh, but it stops hospitalization. Well, fucking prove it. How do you even prove that?

• 2:10:26Speaker 03

  Well, fucking prove it, and it's not your fucking problem.

• 2:10:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:10:29Speaker 03

  You can't make me take a shot to protect me.

• 2:10:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:10:32Speaker 03

  Right?

• 2:10:33Joe Rogan?

  Exactly, and if it works... Well, then it's gonna work on all the people who take it and all the other people, those morons that don't take it, they're gonna be fucked, right? Well, that didn't happen.

• 2:10:41Speaker 03

  No, it absolutely didn't happen. So, anyway, this is, we know the playbook. We know what pharma does.

• 2:10:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:10:46Speaker 03

  Right? And the point is, you're not gonna know how dangerous this drug is, you're not gonna know how good the alternatives are. And, you know.

• 2:10:54Joe Rogan?

  They're gonna suppress the alternatives.

• 2:10:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:10:55Joe Rogan?

  And they're gonna do it in a way that somehow or another not lea- it's not illegal. It's not illegal to make studies that you know can't work.

• 2:11:02Speaker 03

  Right. They're gonna game the scientific literature so that we will have endless arguments about, you know, who's a fool because you will have ample evidence, whichever side of the equation you're on.

• 2:11:14Joe Rogan?

  And they've turned a drug like ivermectin into a fool's drug.

• 2:11:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 2:11:20Joe Rogan?

  That was one of the weirdest psyops and, but I don't think it really worked, but it did work. It worked for a lo- a long time, but I think most people don't think of it the same way anymore. But they did it in the age of the internet.

• 2:11:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:11:32Joe Rogan?

  They did it in the age where anybody could look at their phone instantaneously and read that the guy who invented ivermectin won a fucking Nobel Prize for it.

• 2:11:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:11:42Joe Rogan?

  And how many different does, the fact that it stops viral replication in vitro and in test tubes or whatever the fuck they do it in, Petri dishes, like, it's a weird antiviral that has profound effects. Like, it's very effective and has a very low, uh, dose of, like, I don't think anybody's ever died from it.

• 2:12:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:12:04Joe Rogan?

  Right?

• 2:12:04Speaker 03

  It's, it is a profoundly safe drug.

• 2:12:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:07Speaker 03

  In comparison to all the others.

• 2:12:08Joe Rogan?

  It's safety profile's like one of the best ever, right?

• 2:12:11Speaker 03

  Yes. And the, the one that gets me now, the one that I wish somebody had said to me earlier, is that it works generally across single-stranded RNA viruses. It would be weird if it didn't work on COVID. Right? It's not like, oh, I don't know why.

• 2:12:26Joe Rogan?

  But most people hearing this, that are highly educated, that are, you know, mainstream narrative thinking a little bit, are listening to you and go, this is bullshit conspiracy theory.

• 2:12:36Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:12:36Joe Rogan?

  This is bullshit. ivermectin didn't work, man. It just didn't work.

• 2:12:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, come on. It didn't work.

• 2:12:40Joe Rogan?

  It didn't work. It's bullshit.

• 2:12:41Speaker 03

  Give it up.

• 2:12:42Joe Rogan?

  It didn't work. There's no studies that show it worked.

• 2:12:44Speaker 03

  It's utter nonsense.

• 2:12:47Speaker 03

  It's utter nonsense. So, anyway, that's the lens with which I look at Ozempic. And then the SSRI thing, it happens-

• 2:12:54Joe Rogan?

  At least no one's forcing you to take Ozempic.

• 2:12:57Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:12:58Joe Rogan?

  So if the devil comes along with a contract and says, "Listen, you're gonna die at four to six, no matter what we do, but I can make you hot."

• 2:13:09Joe Rogan?

  And I'm not saying they'll die-

• 2:13:10Speaker 03

  That was a pretty good impression. I mean, I don't really know, because I haven't met the man.

• 2:13:12Joe Rogan?

  I haven't met him either, but I would imagine he'd be like, kinda foghorn, leg horny, just to throw you off. Like, remember Robert De Niro played the devil in Angel Heart?

• 2:13:22Speaker 03

  I don't think that's-

• 2:13:23Joe Rogan?

  He's one of the coolest devils of all time. Angel Heart was a really good movie. It was Mickey Rourke and, um... Uh...man. How am I blanking on her name? The lady from The Cosby Show. Lisa Bonet. Sorry, Lisa. I just...my brain sucks. Um, but, and, um... It was this, like, crazy movie of this guy realizing that he had sold his soul to the devil. And Robert De Niro, it's a very dark movie, very strange, and he doesn't wanna pay. He doesn't wanna give up his soul, and, you know, the devil eventually confronts him, and the devil's Robert De Niro. And, uh, he's one of the best devils of all. This is what I think the devil would look like. He wouldn't be terrifying. Who would be this guy?

• 2:14:14Joe Rogan?

  You wanna listen to it?

• 2:14:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:14:15Joe Rogan?

  We can't. We can't listen to it. But it was just creepy enough.

• 2:14:22Speaker 03

  Just creepy enough.

• 2:14:22Joe Rogan?

  It's better if it's a person. It's creepier if the devil's a person.

• 2:14:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:27Joe Rogan?

  Not some crazy thing with horns and a tail. It's better if the devil's a person.

• 2:14:31Speaker 03

  It's too much of a tell.

• 2:14:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. If the devil's real, boy, he's doing a really good job, because no one thinks he's real. Because if there really is a devil, I always say that everybody believes in God, and you're, like, "God has a plan for me, God has a plan for the world. These trials and tribulations are all put in place by God," and that's totally reasonable. But if you say, you know, like, if the government came on TV and they say, "We've located the devil. He's in Pakistan, and we're gonna begin bombing. We're gonna kill the devil," you'd be like, "What?" What the fuck did you say? You found the devil? And you're gonna blow him up? You know, or the devil wants to have a meeting with the UN?

• 2:15:11Joe Rogan?

  Satan is standing on a podium in front of the world explaining what his plan is? You're like, what? No one would believe that, right? But it's supposed to be a real thing. Like, if you believe in God, you're supposed to believe in the devil. All of it's in the Bible. But this one part of the Bible, like, get the fuck out of here with this devil thing. It's weird. Whatever it is, we know that it works, right? We know evil's a real thing. Whatever, call it what it is. Whatever evil is. But when you see a massacre in some third world country where religious fanatics or rival tribes massacre people, if that's not evil, like, what is evil?

• 2:15:54Joe Rogan?

  And if you can get into the minds of people and convince them that they have to go machete their distant neighbors, like, if that's not, like, something that Satan would do, like, what is that, then? And if we wrote, if people throughout history wrote about Satan and wrote about God and wrote about the conflict of good and evil, and then we're like, oh, yeah, but the devil stuff is not real. The devil, the God stuff's real, but the devil's not real. Come on, there's no devil. But like, the results are the same as if the devil was real, is my point. There's so much evil in the world. It's like, the devil's killing it. He's doing such a good job. And everybody still thinks he's not real.

• 2:16:32Speaker 03

  Well, you ask a question about evil that I think is worth investigating.

• 2:16:36Joe Rogan?

  What is it?

• 2:16:37Speaker 03

  My position on this has changed radically. So it used to be that I would say that I thought evil was an extremely rare phenomenon. And the reason that I thought it was extremely rare is because it's a terrible strategy, right? If we say... That ruthlessness, doing anything to get ahead, is a good strategy, right? Because you can always not do stuff, right?

• 2:17:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:17:05Speaker 03

  You have every move available to you if you're just perfectly amoral. But evil has to be something beyond amoral. Evil has to be something that intentionally does harm, that delights in it, right? In order to merit that term.

• 2:17:20Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:17:21Speaker 03

  That's not a good strategy, right? You want, if you game theoretically, the ideal strategy is perfect amorality, because it can behave morally when that's advantageous, and it can behave immorally when that's advantageous. That is inherently the best. I'm not saying it's good, it's not defensible. But I'm saying, just game theoretically, that is going to be the most effective strategy, is one that can be moral and amoral, or can behave in whatever way is ideal for the individual circumstance. To delight in doing harm is to miss the opportunity to be good when it's the right thing to do. So I would have expected evil to be a very rare phenomenon,

• 2:18:05Speaker 03

  because it's self-extinguishing, right?

• 2:18:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:18:08Speaker 03

  If you're doing harm for its own sake, that's not a way to get ahead. You'll be outcompeted by people who are amoral, at the very least. But I see so many things that strike me as meriting that label. I mean, for example, the pedophilia that you're talking about.

• 2:18:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:18:27Speaker 03

  I don't understand the ability to destroy a child for your own gratification. Like, I'm sorry, that merits the term. And it apparently is more common than most of us have believed until recently.

• 2:18:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what do you think that is? Particularly, like, the man-boy stuff, which is, does that go back to when...

• 2:19:02Joe Rogan?

  If you were, there was no birth control, so if you had sex with a woman, you very likely procreated. And you probably, if you wanted to stop people from procreating, you'd probably separate men and women. So you get a bunch of horny boys around each other, and the big ones abuse the smaller ones. I mean, is that, is that how it starts?

• 2:19:23Speaker 03

  Well, it could be, it could be a concentration of sexual wealth, effectively. That if you have some force that allows, basically, the hoarding of mates, leaving a lot of guys with no prospect, you might imagine that they

• 2:19:49Speaker 03

  might innovate something. That the sex drive is so profoundly powerful, that if some force makes it impossible to find

• 2:20:00Speaker 03

  a mate, that other things would happen. I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's what's explaining it. I don't know enough about the phenomenon. I've seen reports of this behavior, and it's super disturbing.

• 2:20:15Joe Rogan?

  It's just super disturbing that it exists so much in history, and that it's accepted so much in history. And here's another weird one. Like, the Spartans were gay. Right? They, they all had lovers that were other men that they fought alongside. And their idea was that you would fight harder to protect your lover.

• 2:20:37Joe Rogan?

  Like, how?

• 2:20:38Speaker 03

  That one almost makes more sense to me, you know?

• 2:20:41Joe Rogan?

  It certainly does. It's certainly better, right? They're consenting adults, but it's like,

• 2:20:49Joe Rogan?

  why have our ideas of sexuality evolved to where they are today?

• 2:20:56Joe Rogan?

  And what is like, this is, is it because people didn't know how horrific it was back then? Is it because it was under-reported? Was it shame that the momentum of people doing it to more people, like the people that got molested, went on to molest, and it was like more common?

• 2:21:15Speaker 03

  Well, you gotta, you gotta split those two phenomena. Let's take your, your Spartans and battle, okay? And, and uh-

• 2:21:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, I had them all confused there.

• 2:21:25Speaker 03

  I think I've mentioned this to you before, but I, I have a hypothesis that the reason that ships are female is because it causes the people who man them to defend them properly. If your life is-

• 2:21:42Joe Rogan?

  Like a mother, right.

• 2:21:43Speaker 03

  Right, like a mother or a spouse or-

• 2:21:45Joe Rogan?

  Right, your wife, your mother.

• 2:21:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:21:48Speaker 03

  And so, anyway, my point would be that the name, you know, the female naming of ships has persisted because actually it preserves ships, and the cultures that preserve their ships better outcompete the ones that preserve their ships less well.

• 2:22:01Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:22:02Speaker 03

  So, anyway, you could imagine that, um, you know, gay soldiers who did, you know, I mean, every guy is built to want, you're built to defend your lover. And it's hard for me to relate to that being a guy, because I don't swing that way. But if you did feel that way about a guy, then you can imagine that your, you know, ferocity in battle would be enhanced by, uh, by that, that sense of protectiveness.

• 2:22:33Joe Rogan?

  It totally makes sense. But then, I think it was also very common in ancient Japan. I think it was a thing amongst Samurai to have young boy lovers too, wasn't it?

• 2:22:47Speaker 03

  Well, but again, you're, you know, I, these two phenomena-

• 2:22:51Joe Rogan?

  Find out that's the case, young Jamie. I mean, it's just, it's just weird that that exists so often. And all throughout history, and then over the last 100 years, everybody's like, hey, hey, hey, what the fuck is that? Like, it took that long? And then, some of it must still persist at very high levels. Because some of these fucking psychopaths that get into these great positions of power, they probably have some very bizarre needs.

• 2:23:19Joe Rogan?

  Alright, we put it into our sponsor, Perplexity.

• 2:23:23Joe Rogan?

  It says, "Among Samurai in Japan, some same-sex relationships, particularly male-male ones, were indeed recognized and culturally integrated, somewhat similar to Spartan practices but with distinct Japanese characteristics. The practice was known as shudo or nan shoku, where intense erotic and mentorship bonds were formed between an adult samurai, ninja, and a younger male apprentice or page, wakashu. The institution functioned within a strict role framework with the elder as the active partner and the younger as the receptive one." Boy, that's a weird way to put "the old guy fucks the kid."

• 2:24:06Joe Rogan?

  That's the most euphemistic term I've ever seen to "the old guy fucks the kid." Let's see, I say "the old guy fucks the kid," and what they say is "the active partner and the younger as the receptive one." So, "the elder is the active partner," emphasizing loyalty, affection, and mutual growth. Oh, we're both growing from this, buddy. Wow. So, there you go.

• 2:24:32Speaker 03

  Alright.

• 2:24:33Joe Rogan?

  It did not exclude heterosexual marriage and family duties. It was compatible with and did not exclude heterosexual marriage and family duties. So, that's the loophole. You can only have sex with one wife, you know, you have to be heterosexual, but you could fuck as many kids as you want. Jesus Christ. And that's history, and that's weird. It's just a... It's weird that it took so long before people realized, like, that's a terrible thing to do to people.

• 2:25:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. Is there any information on what... You know, I guess in this case, what you're reading suggests a mentor relationship, which suggests that these kids are maturing into other roles.

• 2:25:15Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:25:16Speaker 03

  I think what you're describing in Afghanistan is not that at all.

• 2:25:18Joe Rogan?

  No, not that at all. It's a worse version of that, but it's still involving the same horrific act, which is a much worse version of it. But it's all just fucking crazy. It's like... We know now what it does to people and it's like, how did they not know then?

• 2:25:34Speaker 03

  Well, you know.

• 2:25:35Joe Rogan?

  Is it because of shared information? Is it because of books, media? Is it because of social media? Like, what is it?

• 2:25:42Speaker 03

  The problem, Joe, I really, there's an important concept that I want to remind you. We've talked about it before. It's relevant to all sorts of things. I just don't want to connect it to this, but I think.

• 2:25:58Joe Rogan?

  Go for it.

• 2:25:58Speaker 03

  Well, the concept is lineage and the problem is lots of stuff that looks really freaking strange when you zoom in and you look at individual behavior. The real question is, what were these things having to do with the success or not of the lineages that were involved in them? And we don't know. So you're, you're looking at the behavior between individuals and you're saying, that's grotesque and doesn't make sense. And the question is, does the larger context, especially when you're dealing with things like

• 2:26:36Speaker 03

  samurais, you know, that are basically fundamentally about the, the continuance of a lineage. There's a question about what, you know, what makes for a functional samurai culture? And I don't know. I'm no expert in this, so I can't even look at that case and give you a proposal. I don't know enough about the context to say how it might work, but I can tell you where you have a paradox like that. You either have the case that I think is going on in Afghanistan where it's just purely predatory, right?

• 2:27:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think in order, I mean, if it really truly is a mentor relationship and that they all do it, it's essentially the same sort of function as with the Spartans, right? Like, they would be fighting alongside each other. If you were going to develop an army, like, you would probably, first of all, they're not going to have any contact with females for a long period of time.

• 2:27:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:27:33Joe Rogan?

  It'd probably encourage homosexuality.

• 2:27:36Speaker 03

  Well, I think what I'm. I think what I'm getting at is, I think you and I are struggling with that landscape and what it might mean.

• 2:27:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:27:46Speaker 03

  Because you and I are fundamentally Western and lineage against lineage violence is not our mindset. And so anytime you and I look. At lineage against lineage violence, there are paradoxes aplenty. And the problem, one of the things that I'm spending a lot of time thinking about is the fact that lineage against lineage violence is reasserting itself, that the West was the alternative to that. And lineage against lineage violence is reasserting itself and it is threatening to drag the whole

• 2:28:23Speaker 03

  world back into it because it is fundamentally more stable, right? The West is more vibrant, the West is safer, fairer, more productive, but it's fragile. It depends on an agreement to continue treating each other that way. And that means that anything that threatens it causes it to come apart and you descend back into a world of chaos and grotesque behavior. And that's where I think we are. We are watching the agreement, you know, the world was moving in the direction of the

• 2:29:04Speaker 03

  West, we were getting along better, we were learning to be productive together with people who were not closely related to us. And we are contracting now back into this view of, well, it's us against them and they gotta go.

• 2:29:21Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Oh. Do you, do you think there's a way to change course? Like, the negative things that are going on in society right now, the negative things that we all feel, when you're talking about whether it's pharmaceutical drug companies getting involved in their healthcare narratives in order to make more money? Do you think there's a way forward where this corrects itself? Or we correct it? Or we get to a much more healthy balance? You're never gonna get everybody who's involved in every aspect of society to be a good person with kindness in their heart and a general, overall want for the good of mankind.

• 2:30:05Joe Rogan?

  It's, you're not gonna have that everywhere. You're always gonna have some people that are out for themselves. But is there a way to balance it and make it much more in the direction of everybody recognizing like, hey? This way we're doing this is not good for anybody. And it's being manipulated by foreign governments all day long. And you're addicted to the thing that it's manipulating you on. And whether or not you realize it, you're at least somewhat affected by this data that's coming at you. You could say, I'm smart. I'm not going to fall into that bullshit. But then, you know, it's a little gets in there. Enough gets in there that it becomes a part of your thinking. That it becomes something that you debate all the time. And it's mostly artificially propped up.

• 2:30:50Speaker 03

  Well, I want to separate that into two questions.

• 2:30:53Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:30:54Speaker 03

  Do I think there's a way for the world to be structured?

• 2:30:57Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:30:57Speaker 03

  You're never going to get rid of all the bad people. But that it's tolerant, you know, that it deals with the bad people sufficiently well. That the good people have enough of a stake. That the objectives are clear enough. That people have meaning in their life. That they, can it be structured so that it works?

• 2:31:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:31:14Speaker 03

  Not perfectly, but well enough. Yeah, I absolutely believe that it can.

• 2:31:19Joe Rogan?

  So what do you think?

• 2:31:20Speaker 03

  Hold on, but the second question, where I'm more pessimistic, is is there a path from here to there?

• 2:31:26Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so it could be done, but is there a path?

• 2:31:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:31:30Joe Rogan?

  Oy.

• 2:31:32Speaker 03

  Things are so wildly fucked up. And, you know, I'm watching, in many cases, my friends pulled into the administration with a lot of momentum behind them. And I'm watching something seemingly prevent the promise that was there from being realized. Right?

• 2:31:58Joe Rogan?

  You're talking about RFK?

• 2:32:00Speaker 03

  Well, I'm talking about, you know, RFK. I was just with Jay Bhattacharya.

• 2:32:08Speaker 03

  There's something that when the good people get to Washington and try to do the right thing, there is an architecture that drains them, that wastes their efforts, that places roadblocks, that causes them to back their objectives way off. And I don't know what it is, but it's disheartening to see it. I mean, even just, we could talk about the mRNA vaccines. This one was so clear.

• 2:32:51Speaker 03

  We've got people in Washington who know it. They can't apparently get these things off the market. Like, what the hell is that?

• 2:32:58Joe Rogan?

  If I was running the board right now, I'd start playing the theme song that Pink Floyd's song, "Money." You know, the beginning of that?

• 2:33:09Speaker 03

  Oh, sure.

• 2:33:10Joe Rogan?

  (singing) That's what it is. It's all just profit. It's profit and power.

• 2:33:17Speaker 03

  It's power. I don't think it's profit.

• 2:33:18Joe Rogan?

  It's part of it. Part of it is you have to keep score, and profit is how you keep score. You have to keep score. You want to be big shot, swinging dick psychopath? You got to keep score of how much money you make. So it is profit. Profit's a big part of it. It's definitely competition, too. It's the thing that happens with any corporation that has an obligation to its stockholders. You got to keep making more money. And if you're in the business of distributing drugs, you're not in the business of, you're not doing the lab work. Those aren't the guys that are assholes. You're not like in the trenches trying to figure out how these things work. And no, the people that are trying to get, they're the money people. The money people are crazy.

• 2:33:59Joe Rogan?

  And the money people are infiltrating all the science people and telling them what to say about stuff. If scientists, like, as a whole, were always entirely objective about every single subject, and never, ever subject to bribery, like the sugar people were, like, when they gave them the sugar, to say that it was all saturated fats causing all this heart disease, and all these people are obese because of saturated fat. And people started eating margarine. This is all money. It's all money. It's all, so money gets into the, if the scientists were true, if they were like knights and they could not tell a lie, we would have never got into half the messes that we're in with pharmaceutical drug companies.

• 2:34:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:34:42Joe Rogan?

  But they work for the pharmaceutical drug companies and then the people that are involved in the FDA, if they leave, they get a cushy job with the pharmaceutical drug companies and it's totally legal. So there's no incentive to be a knight.

• 2:34:55Speaker 03

  I know how corrupt the system is. I mean, in some ways, I feel like nobody knows better. But I am disheartened to discover how little power, even when the curtain is pulled back and we can see the gross excesses and the massive wave of destruction that was created, even in that circumstance, we can't make the most basic alteration, right? Taking the mRNA COVID shots off the market, I don't understand how, they should be so

• 2:35:36Speaker 03

  embarrassed and horrified at the harm they did, that this should be an easy one.

• 2:35:41Joe Rogan?

  So how are they still selling it? How are they still pushing it? Like, what is this, what are they saying it does for you now?

• 2:35:49Speaker 03

  I mean, I guess they're sticking with their, you know, like 14th fallback position of it reduces the harm of COVID.

• 2:35:58Joe Rogan?

  No, is this because pulling it from the market is an admission of guilt or an admission of knowledge that it's not effective and it's not necessary anymore? And then...

• 2:36:09Speaker 03

  Something...

• 2:36:11Joe Rogan?

  The thing is, they don't have to wor, because of the fact that it's classified as a vaccine, they don't have to worry about being sued.

• 2:36:17Speaker 03

  Well, they do. They do.

• 2:36:19Joe Rogan?

  How so?

• 2:36:21Speaker 03

  The immunity from liability is dependent on there having been no fraud and there clearly was fraud.

• 2:36:32Speaker 03

  So, in light of that.

• 2:36:34Joe Rogan?

  I didn't know there was any caveats like that.

• 2:36:36Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:36:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that makes it much more interesting.

• 2:36:39Speaker 03

  It's much more interesting.

• 2:36:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but is it, what, how do you define fraud? Because they've sold drugs where they had like 10 studies and one of them was good.

• 2:36:46Speaker 03

  Let's try this one. Let's try this one.

• 2:36:49Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:36:50Speaker 03

  They, the insufficient amount of safety testing that was done before these things were released was done with mRNA vaccines produced in a process that did not involve DNA. The product that was actually injected into billions of people involved DNA plasmids, and there is massive contamination in the shots that were actually delivered, including the SV40 promoter, simian virus 40.

• 2:37:29Joe Rogan?

  We talked about that the last time we were on, right?

• 2:37:31Speaker 03

  I think we probably did.

• 2:37:32Joe Rogan?

  I think we did.

• 2:37:33Speaker 03

  But in any case, the point is, for you to put your process one drug through safety testing and then inject people with something different that has other components that were not tested is fraudulent.

• 2:37:48Joe Rogan?

  Can I stop you real quick?

• 2:37:49Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 2:37:49Joe Rogan?

  And just, so this could be standalone? Could you just explain the whole SV40 thing to people and how it became an issue?

• 2:37:55Speaker 03

  So, there are lots of techniques that are used in order to generate a lot of product, right? In this case, what they used is a plasmid, which is a circular piece of DNA, in order to basically create vats that would grow the product necessary that would later be coded in lipid nanoparticle. So, they used bacteria to do the heavy lifting.

• 2:38:24Speaker 03

  There is a requirement that you purify DNA out. And there are standards, which are way too high, but there are standards that you can't go above in terms of how much DNA contamination you can have left over from your production process. But in this case, it isn't even that the quality control is garbage and there was too much stuff left over because the process didn't work very well. The problem is that there was a much more painstaking way of producing technically the same product that did not involve DNA plasmids at all. And so what you've got left over in these vials, and we're talking about largely the

• 2:39:07Speaker 03

  work of Kevin McKernan, who took vials that were given to him, stuff that was actually injected in people, there was leftover stuff in the vials, and he tested a bunch of these things, found DNA contamination across the board. So what you're left with is a promoter, which is a genetic trigger that we know is common in lab techniques, and it originally comes from simian virus 40, and we know that it's carcinogenic. So that promoter is left over in vials from shots that were actually injected into people. And that means that all of the things that we were told about the potential for these

• 2:39:51Speaker 03

  mRNA shots to integrate into your genome, that was impossible, they told us, right? Well, first of all, it's not impossible. There's lots of interesting stuff that goes on in cells that involves, you know, reverse transcription and things like that. But even what we were told, that there's no DNA, so integration is not an issue, was a lie, because there is DNA left over in these vials, and it's not just some old DNA. It's DNA with the SV40 promoter, which is a genetic engineering tool that has carcinogenic potential. So it seems to me, this is clear fraud. You can't inject a different product into the public on the basis of safety testing that was done with something produced by a different process.

• 2:40:36Joe Rogan?

  Could you explain how they got this SV40 from these monkeys? Like, what, and how it got into these... Vaccines?

• 2:40:45Speaker 03

  Well, I wish I-

• 2:40:46Joe Rogan?

  And other vaccines in the past as well, right?

• 2:40:48Speaker 03

  I will tell you what I think I remember from this story. I should probably have brushed up on it if we were going to talk about this. But I believe that the story is that in the production of early polio vaccines, monkey kidneys were used. And SV40 was a virus that I think was unknown that showed up, that because you're using cells and viruses infect cells, that SV40 showed up in that process. So, anyway, I wish I was more certain of what the story is.

• 2:41:22Joe Rogan?

  So, the monkey kidneys, the virus from the monkey kidneys, got into whatever this vaccine was? And then that infected people with SV40? And is there a correlating or a corresponding rise in cancer among the time where they were doing that?

• 2:41:40Speaker 03

  I don't know the answer to that question. I don't know how well-studied it's been.

• 2:41:43Joe Rogan?

  So, why do we think that it causes cancer?

• 2:41:45Speaker 03

  Oh, because we know it does. We can see that it transforms cells and they become cancerous.

• 2:41:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so in a lab, in a lab scenario? But what about with humans? Do we know that it does it with humans?

• 2:41:58Speaker 03

  We know that it transforms human cells. I believe that is a fair statement.

• 2:42:04Joe Rogan?

  And at the very least, your position is that it's absolutely not what they tested?

• 2:42:08Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, it doesn't matter. The SV40 thing is alarming. The simple fact that they tested it, a different product than they injected into people, that's where the fraud is.

• 2:42:18Joe Rogan?

  Was it because it was a rush to ma- make, to mass produce?

• 2:42:23Speaker 03

  I mean, you can say that-

• 2:42:23Joe Rogan?

  What are you saying? Why would the deci- why would the decisions be made to do it a different way?

• 2:42:27Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, I think the obvious reason is because in the one case, you get a much purer product, which is much more likely to get through the safety testing. And in the other case, you get the rapid expansion of production. But that's fraud.

• 2:42:39Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:42:40Speaker 03

  Right?

• 2:42:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:40Speaker 03

  You tested a different product.

• 2:42:42Joe Rogan?

  Oy!

• 2:42:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:42:44Joe Rogan?

  Oy!

• 2:42:46Joe Rogan?

  And the one you tested didn't work.

• 2:42:48Speaker 03

  Well, yeah.

• 2:42:49Joe Rogan?

  Even the first one sucked.

• 2:42:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, it didn't.

• 2:42:52Joe Rogan?

  It's amazing how many people defend it. They will defend it, just like they defend the fucking flying spaghetti monster, whatever it is. They'll defend it. They'll defend it. It becomes a part of their religion.

• 2:43:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:43:04Joe Rogan?

  They'll still tell you it saved millions of lives. Like, how do you know that? Like, how do you know if it didn't work? Like, if it really didn't work? Like, how do you, if you still got COVID and you got it real bad, like, how do you know it did anything good? How do we really know that it did anything good to anybody?

• 2:43:19Speaker 03

  We don't.

• 2:43:20Joe Rogan?

  Right, but that narrative is really hard for people to swallow. So they keep saying it saved millions of lives. Like, I wish that was true.

• 2:43:28Speaker 03

  Saved millions of lives in a computer model.

• 2:43:30Joe Rogan?

  But isn't that computer model dependent upon it not causing infection and not causing transmission?

• 2:43:36Speaker 03

  The computer model is pure garbage. For one thing, the fact that it's a computer model in the first place means that you cannot test the hypothesis that it saved or didn't save lives.

• 2:43:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:43:47Speaker 03

  You could potentially run a computer model and you could generate a hypothesis that you would then need to go test with real world data. You don't get to tell us that it saved millions of lives based on the fact that your computer spit out that number. I'm sorry. That's not how that works.

• 2:44:00Joe Rogan?

  Reason why they have to keep belittling ivermectin. Imagine if we get to a position where AI can do definitive breakdowns of the efficacy of certain compounds that's stopping certain diseases like COVID-19. And it says that with this dose, with this body weight, you do it this amount of times, and it should offer like 70% protection.

• 2:44:21Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:44:21Joe Rogan?

  And then they run that into what, what's the actual data on the vaccine causing side effects and injury? And we just get this horrible reality in front of us that I think everybody who took the shot is really wanting to avoid the mindfuck of knowing that you got used as a little piggy bank for the pharmaceutical drug companies to push some experimental shit on you and tell you that it's both safe and effective. It's both safe and, which, by the way, didn't Fauci use that same term for AZT back in the day? Didn't he?

• 2:44:55Speaker 03

  He would. I mean, it's a great slogan, right?

• 2:44:57Joe Rogan?

  Safe and effective. See if he did. See if you can attribute the term "safe and effective" to Fauci talking about AZT during the HIV crisis.

• 2:45:05Speaker 03

  But the problem is, to your point about AI, they...

• 2:45:11Speaker 03

  These people are not fools and they understand that the AI extrapolates from what it's read. So they're priming it.

• 2:45:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:19Speaker 03

  Right? They're priming it so that it can't do the proper work, which means that this potentially extremely valuable tool, frightening, yes, but potentially extremely valuable tool is going to be compromised because it is going to be intentionally misled with phony articles, papers, all of that stuff.

• 2:45:38Joe Rogan?

  Long-term AZT appears safe and effective. Oh, my goodness. 1989. Wow. There's a video of him saying it. That's what I remember now. He was saying, "The reason why we prescribe AZT is that it's the only drug that is both safe and effective."

• 2:46:01Joe Rogan?

  Something along the... You probably cut that out. It might not be his actual quote. But whatever he said, he was talking about it the same way he talked about the COVID vaccine. He was talking about something that definitely fucking killed people. AZT was a horrible, horrible drug. It killed more people than... It was a cancer drug. It was chemotherapy. Like, when have people ever been told to take chemotherapy forever?

• 2:46:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:46:23Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:46:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's a monstrous person and the idea, I mean, I think any preemptive pardon that is...

• 2:46:33Joe Rogan?

  Wild.

• 2:46:34Speaker 03

  Non-specific?

• 2:46:36Joe Rogan?

  Non-specific that goes back to 2014.

• 2:46:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, this, you can't have that. This is a legally unsupportable idea because it effectively creates two classes of citizens. It violates equal protection under the law, right? You can't have people who have carte blanche to violate the law, you know?

• 2:46:53Joe Rogan?

  It's also what the kids call sus.

• 2:46:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's super sus.

• 2:46:57Joe Rogan?

  That's fucking super sus. That's super sus. And then he also pardoned his whole family. You're like, yo! What did you guys do?

• 2:47:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, he pardoned. So that's the question is, does the Auto Pen stuff stand up?

• 2:47:11Joe Rogan?

  I think they're gonna not push it. I think they're gonna not push it because I bet they all use it. I bet Trump is busy, you know, he doesn't have time. Does he have any lines written his name? He's got a lot of lines.

• 2:47:23Speaker 03

  A lot of lines, up and down lines, yeah.

• 2:47:25Joe Rogan?

  If I was, yeah, use the pen. And I guess maybe if you say, use the pen, and you know, you're allowed to. You know what I mean? Like DocuSign, if you get a DocuSign document in your email, you get to sign it with your pre-approved signature.

• 2:47:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:47:39Joe Rogan?

  Fucking weird.

• 2:47:41Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, that's, I think, I think you're conflating a couple of things, and I don't really know, I'm no, I'm no expert, but it seems to me, the Autopen, you know, I think its purpose was to like, sign autograph photos and

• 2:47:53Joe Rogan?

  Oh, for real?

• 2:47:54Speaker 03

  pro forma documents. It's not there to sign important stuff.

• 2:47:59Joe Rogan?

  Pardon, yeah, not pardon.

• 2:48:00Speaker 03

  Certainly not.

• 2:48:01Joe Rogan?

  That's a crazy one.

• 2:48:02Speaker 03

  It's a crazy one, and especially

• 2:48:03Joe Rogan?

  Somebody else can press that button.

• 2:48:05Speaker 03

  Right, especially if your president happens to, oh, I don't know, be demented.

• 2:48:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:48:09Speaker 03

  You know, yeah, so

• 2:48:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's out of his gourd, and everybody knows it.

• 2:48:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:48:14Joe Rogan?

  What is your suspicion about that second debate? The debate that they had where he totally fell apart? Do you think that they set him up for that by putting it on late at night, and that they probably didn't, and give him his right vitamins?

• 2:48:27Speaker 03

  Um, look, they clearly set him up.

• 2:48:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:48:30Speaker 03

  Right, for those of us who were tracking his mental decrepitude since

• 2:48:32Joe Rogan?

  They know.

• 2:48:33Speaker 03

  before he was elected, there's no way that they thought that he was going to do okay in that debate.

• 2:48:43Joe Rogan?

  The second one?

• 2:48:44Speaker 03

  Agreeing to it was conspicuous, and so I think it was part of forcing him out.

• 2:48:51Joe Rogan?

  Well, they debated in the past, it's like, you know, Biden wasn't that bad, he's got some good ones in there. You know, it wasn't too bad. I was like, whatever they put him on for that debate, pretty solid.

• 2:49:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:49:02Joe Rogan?

  You know, whatever cocktail. They didn't give him the cocktail for that one where he, like, we beat Medicaid, like, what? And that's what everybody had grown accustomed to, and I remember someone that I know, that I'm friends with, sent me a message, um, don't you know that Biden has a stutter? That's what this is all about.

• 2:49:21Speaker 03

  Oh, remember that stutter thing?

• 2:49:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and this guy was, I go, I started sending him all these videos of Biden when he was younger.

• 2:49:28Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:49:28Joe Rogan?

  He was a powerful speaker. Powerful speaker, maybe a bullshit artist, but at least

• 2:49:33Speaker 03

  I wouldn't say a powerful speaker, but certainly competent.

• 2:49:35Joe Rogan?

  Wasn't bad, wasn't bad. He had some good ones. There's a couple of speeches in there, they're pretty solid.

• 2:49:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:49:40Joe Rogan?

  When he was, uh, It was not, it was all after he had the disaster when he's running for president. So in eighty-eight, you know, he's running for president, he got caught plagiarizing.

• 2:49:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:49:52Joe Rogan?

  But it was after that, like when he was, uh, vice president, he was pretty solid. You know, he had a few solid speeches. And then you see him now, and it's like, oh, boy, this is crazy. He trails off in his words at the end.

• 2:50:07Joe Rogan?

  What is this one? Oh, here it is.

• 2:50:08Speaker 03

  Anthony.

• 2:50:10Speaker 05

  ... available AZT because it's the only drug that thus far has been shown in scientifically controlled trials to be safe and effective. It isn't a question of there are a lot of drugs around and only one.

• 2:50:21Joe Rogan?

  Yo, imagine that. Imagine saying that and being so wrong.

• 2:50:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:50:25Joe Rogan?

  That who knows how many people died from that, including people that had no symptoms at all. They just tested positive for HIV and they just dozed them up.

• 2:50:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, he's a cold-hearted son of a bitch.

• 2:50:36Joe Rogan?

  Ooh. And what did they, what were they, were they using a PCR method to detect whether or not people had HIV back then?

• 2:50:42Speaker 03

  I don't think so. I don't think it existed.

• 2:50:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, didn't, when did Carey Moss, when did he devise that?

• 2:50:51Joe Rogan?

  Because this is like, let's put that into perplexity. When was the PCR method?

• 2:50:56Speaker 03

  Actually, it would have been...

• 2:50:59Joe Rogan?

  Ninety-three.

• 2:50:59Speaker 03

  No, but that's way after. That's way after. He invented it in eighty-three. Eighty-three.

• 2:51:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh. So what did they use to determine whether or not people...

• 2:51:08Speaker 03

  But I don't think, I don't think they would have... Well, I don't know.

• 2:51:11Joe Rogan?

  Did they, did they use PCR method to determine whether or not people had HIV? Because they definitely did with COVID, right?

• 2:51:18Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:51:18Joe Rogan?

  And what were the, um, accidental positives? The false positives? What were those? How many?

• 2:51:25Speaker 03

  Oh, they had the cycle threshold turned up so high.

• 2:51:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:51:28Speaker 03

  That it would amplify any contamination, right? They were just looking to establish that COVID was everywhere.

• 2:51:34Joe Rogan?

  So, but what, HIV diagnosis primarily through three tests?

• 2:51:40Speaker 03

  Antibody.

• 2:51:41Joe Rogan?

  Antibody tests, antigen, antibody tests, and nucleic acids, nucleic? Nucleic acid tests?

• 2:51:46Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:51:47Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:51:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, so not PCR.

• 2:51:49Joe Rogan?

  So not PCR?

• 2:51:50Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:51:51Joe Rogan?

  So how many cycles were they, they had it to a massive number at one point in time, right?

• 2:51:57Speaker 03

  I think it was in the forties, something like that.

• 2:51:59Joe Rogan?

  And...

• 2:52:01Joe Rogan?

  What kind of false positives would you get if you had something like that?

• 2:52:04Speaker 03

  Oh, massive. I mean, especially in the context that these machines existed. So, basically, the idea is that you get, um, you get a doubling for each of these cycles. And that means that if there's the tiniest fragment in your environment, that you will end up seeing it come through as a positive. So imagine that you're in a hospital, testing patients, right? Are there going to be fragments of COVID around in the middle of, uh, you know, 2020? Sure, there are going to be fragments around. So it will find that fragment. It will pop up, oh, you've got a positive, right? If you're in a testing center, it's the same thing.

• 2:52:47Speaker 03

  So, anyway, Kerry Mullis, of course, warned us about this. He said it was a completely inappropriate technology for that purpose.

• 2:52:54Joe Rogan?

  I think he did that quite a bit before COVID even, wasn't it? Wasn't that conversation, I think he, when did, didn't he die in 2019? Is that correct?

• 2:53:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:53:03Joe Rogan?

  And so, when was that conversation? There's a conversation where he's belittling Fauci. He's like, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's a bureaucrat.

• 2:53:08Speaker 03

  Yep. I think it's a different conversation than the cycle threshold.

• 2:53:11Joe Rogan?

  But, you know, he was talking in that same conversation. Maybe it's a different time. He said the same thing. But that, you, it's, this is not what you would need to detect viruses.

• 2:53:20Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:53:20Joe Rogan?

  This is the guy that invented it.

• 2:53:22Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:53:23Joe Rogan?

  Like, it's just, the, the fact that someone could be the, the man that pushed that and make it all the way through in his career to, to COVID and do the same thing is so wild.

• 2:53:40Speaker 03

  Well, you know, I don't, I don't really even know what Anthony Fauci. That video? Yeah.

• 2:53:46Joe Rogan?

  This is it.

• 2:53:46Speaker 03

  96?

• 2:53:47Joe Rogan?

  96. 96. So Fauci must have been using it for whatever. Well, maybe in 96, they were using it for HIV. Who knows?

• 2:53:57Speaker 03

  Well, wait a second. In that video, he says about, but I know that, I know that video.

• 2:54:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:01Speaker 03

  He talks about the cycle thresholds and the inappropriate use of that tech for...

• 2:54:05Joe Rogan?

  Let's hear what he says. Let's hear what he says. I may be conflating two different speeches that he, where he complained about him. But I know in this, when he's talking, he was telling, he's saying he doesn't know what he's talking about.

• 2:54:17Speaker 06

  About humanity that wants to go to all the details and stuff and listen, you know, guys like Fauci get up there and start talking, you know, he doesn't know anything really about anything and I'd say that to his face, nothing. The man thinks you can take a blood sample and stick it in an electron microscope and if it's got a virus in there, you'll know it. He doesn't understand electron microscopy and he doesn't understand medicine and he should not be in a position like he's in. Most of those guys up there on the top are just total administrative people and they don't know anything about what's going on at the bottom. You know, those guys have got an agenda, which is not what we would like them to have, being that we pay for them to take care of our health in some way.

• 2:55:00Speaker 06

  They've got a personal kind of agenda, they make up their own rules as they go, they change them when they want to and they smuggle it like Tony Fauci does not mind going on television in front of the people that pay his salary and lie directly into the camera. You can't expect the sheep.

• 2:55:15Joe Rogan?

  Crazy, right? Crazy. That's a crazy statement from a brilliant man in 1996.

• 2:55:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's amazing how prescient that statement is.

• 2:55:27Joe Rogan?

  It's what we were talking about, like people that get into positions of power.

• 2:55:30Speaker 03

  Um, yes, and I also think, you know, Fauci was the highest paid federal employee. There's a reason for that and I don't think we exactly know the reason.

• 2:55:44Joe Rogan?

  Let's play that Pink Floyd song again.

• 2:55:46Speaker 03

  Well, but, you know, presumably that's not where the bulk of his wealth is coming from, but it is a measure of his position in the hierarchy.

• 2:55:56Joe Rogan?

  And his ability to ensure that other people exceed their wildest expectations. I mean, if you can get that guy to push your drug, you know, you're making a lot of money.

• 2:56:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I even think it's a mistake to think of him in the medical and public health context because what we now know is that he was part of dual-use research, that this is actually a military project to create bioweapons through a loophole. We're not allowed to create bioweapons, but you are allowed to do research that leads to bioweapons as long as it has a medical dimension.

• 2:56:34Joe Rogan?

  Again, this is something that you put into someone's head and they'll go, no, no, no, no, NBC says different.

• 2:56:39Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:56:40Joe Rogan?

  Washington Post says different. Stop, stop, stop. What you're saying is crazy, but...

• 2:56:45Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of, there's a lot of evidence that points to that.

• 2:56:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:56:48Joe Rogan?

  And it's not something that hasn't been both discussed and done in the past.

• 2:56:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:56:53Joe Rogan?

  This is what's hard for normies to swallow. It's hard.

• 2:56:58Speaker 03

  Yep. And not only that, but because it is inherently not visible to the public. You know, we have sort of the public health justification for work. You know, why, why were they enhancing viruses in the lab, Joe?

• 2:57:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:57:13Speaker 03

  Oh, they were doing it because they wanted to know what a virus would look like.

• 2:57:16Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 2:57:17Speaker 03

  So that we would be aware of how to fend it off if it ever leapt out of nature. That's a garbage story.

• 2:57:22Joe Rogan?

  Also, you guys did a really shitty job of figuring it out to the point where you can make a cure because you had no idea. You had no fucking idea.

• 2:57:30Speaker 03

  No advantage came from that work at all, despite the fact that they were studying exactly the right viruses. There's something just not right.

• 2:57:36Joe Rogan?

  Especially if you were going to make, you wanted to use something as a bioweapon. Wouldn't you take a virus and make it more contagious? And you could say, I'm just studying it. I'm just studying it. Like, you're making something that's going to kill us all? Are you real?

• 2:57:50Speaker 03

  Well, you know, this is one of these frustrating places where I think it's perfectly obvious and should be to anybody who is trained in any related discipline, that the story does not make sense. That the chances that you are going to enhance a virus's infectivity and that it is going to get out and become endemic to humans far exceeds the chances that you are going to learn something by increasing its ability to infect human tissue that allows you to fend off some natural virus that emerges. The story literally doesn't make sense.

• 2:58:27Joe Rogan?

  It's a pyromaniac, an arsonist who works for the fire department.

• 2:58:31Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:58:32Joe Rogan?

  That's what it is.

• 2:58:32Speaker 03

  That's what it is. So what we have to infer, and I'm borrowing from Robert Malone here, who at the Brownstone Conference that I was recently at, pointed out that the mentality amongst guys like Fauci is identical to the one in Dr. Strangelove.

• 2:58:52Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 2:58:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a really deep point, right? That... Mania about, you know, nuclear weapons and mine shafts and we can still win this one even though, you know, nuclear war is happening. That same kind of mindset where these people are actually crazy enough to create new human pathogens for which they have no escape plan, right? They're crazy enough to do that because in their demented minds, you know, there's gonna be some biological war and we're gonna need to have these weapons, right? These people belong in a mental institution. Creating new human pathogens is the exact opposite of creating wealth.

• 2:59:36Joe Rogan?

  And you know, there's gonna be some shill who pops up and says Brett is totally off with this. What we have learned through this work is the reason why we're all alive today if it wasn't for their brave work. There are these people that just step in. There'll be people that do it because they want online clout. There's gonna be people that are doing it because, you know, they're a part of a fucking chatbot network that's attacking this point. But the reality is, it's a crazy idea, especially if you've never come up with a fucking cure. You've been studying these respiratory viruses for how long? How much money have you spent? And you know, you got no cure? You don't even have a clue? You're doing a terrible job.

• 3:00:17Speaker 03

  Not even a terrible job, you know?

• 3:00:20Joe Rogan?

  But if you were doing what you said you were doing, you're doing a terrible job. But it makes way more sense that what you're doing is trying to make a terrible virus. So you could have it.

• 3:00:27Speaker 03

  It's almost like, I don't know, the analogy is a loose one, but you know, you know, Munchausen by proxy injuring people to save them, right? The idea that the pandemic came from the same guy who then stepped in to play the hero.

• 3:00:51Speaker 03

  Is a little alarming.

• 3:00:53Joe Rogan?

  It is a little alarming, especially because that wasn't initially known.

• 3:00:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 3:00:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:59Speaker 03

  Oh, here's a hero. You know, you've got, you know, Trump saying all kinds of crazy stuff, and at least we have a sober scientist there to keep him in line.

• 3:01:09Joe Rogan?

  And he was a soldier of the left. Like, they were like, yes, he's our guy. If you trust, we trust in Fauci and we trust in science. It was crazy to watch. Like, hey, guys, these are the same people we were all complaining about six months ago.

• 3:01:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:01:23Joe Rogan?

  What are you, the fuck are you talking about? You all had no faith in the pharmaceutical drug companies a year ago. And now, all of a sudden, you're trusting them?

• 3:01:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's absolutely wild.

• 3:01:33Joe Rogan?

  Wild. And it's wild how gullible a large swath of our society is. And that's why I think, like, a better education for young people, to at least give them a framework to understand what's happening to you, and how you're getting bamboozled. And why, why it's been going on as long as it's been going on, and how do you get your mind out of that?

• 3:01:56Speaker 03

  See, I mean, look, I can see, I'm really enthusiastic. If we get through the immediate bottleneck that we face, that there is a way to build school that functions by not, you know, using this archaic mechanism where you're sitting people facing the chalkboard, watching somebody scratch stuff on there. Schools should be built out of exercises and experiences that teach these things through living them, right? That reinforce those patterns, not as abstractions on the board, but as experiences. You could teach all sorts of things this way.

• 3:02:39Speaker 03

  And then, the person has it built in in some deep way, rather than, you know, in some quadrant of their abstract thought library.

• 3:02:47Joe Rogan?

  Um, I totally agree if we're going to remain human, which I don't think we're going to. So if we're not going to remain human, and I'm not just saying, you know, like you and I are probably gonna remain human, but I mean, as a species.

• 3:03:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:03:00Joe Rogan?

  If we're not going to remain human, it will be quaint to look back on the days, just like we look back on people that take a fucking horse across the country. That's how we're gonna look at you. You had to acquire data from like a constant study and repetition. That's how you got your skills. When it's gonna be like Neo in The Matrix. They put that chip in his head and he goes, "I know jujitsu." Remember that?

• 3:03:22Speaker 03

  Right, I do.

• 3:03:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's what it's gonna be like. It's gonna be like that. Like, the idea of acquiring knowledge and skills by hard work and labor is gonna be like before people figured out doors. It's like, this is a dumb way to do things. Like, we have a way more effective way. Like, why do you wanna go through all the hardship to get information and to be intelligent and aware? When you could just be intelligent and aware? Like, why do we think that it's so? Because that was the only method to be intelligent and aware in the past.

• 3:03:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, but Joe.

• 3:03:53Joe Rogan?

  You're gonna sign up and you're gonna take the chip. We're all gonna take the chip because we all wanna be happy. Just like everybody has a phone now.

• 3:04:01Speaker 03

  Well, the problem, though, is we don't know how to be anything other than human. We are losing our humanity without a plan for being something else, without a conceivable plan even.

• 3:04:14Joe Rogan?

  We are cavemen, and cavemen is what we will be until we die. We have no plan to live in the cities. We have no plan. We will hunt with Flint. We are cavemen.

• 3:04:25Speaker 03

  Well, the farther we get from the mode that we evolved in, the more fucked up and directionless we find ourselves.

• 3:04:36Joe Rogan?

  That's true. However, that's the direction we're going. So I say buckle up.

• 3:04:42Joe Rogan?

  I don't know what else to say about it because it's all just, I feel like it's all just kind of mental masturbation right now because no one really knows what it's going to be like. We could speculate, we could prepare.

• 3:04:52Speaker 03

  Well, that's, that's the key thing is people have to admit that.

• 3:04:54Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 3:04:55Speaker 03

  Right? All the people who want to tell you how it's going to be don't know.

• 3:04:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, they're also trying to stop people from stopping them. They, they don't want people to be alarmed. And so they'll give you the most rose colored glasses version, except for Elon. He was the only one that was saying like, there was a robot, one of those robot dogs. And he, I forgot the exact quote, but it was something in tune of one day, that's going to move so fast, you could barely see it. And it's going to be shooting guns and it's going to be powered by AI.

• 3:05:25Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 3:05:26Joe Rogan?

  Get ready.

• 3:05:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:05:27Joe Rogan?

  Because that's what, that's what those things are going to be.

• 3:05:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:05:30Joe Rogan?

  And that's, that's true too. That's, that's part of it too. It's like weapons are just going to be insane. All jets are going to be fighter jets controlled by AI. They're way better than fighter jets.

• 3:05:41Speaker 03

  Oh, of course. The last thing you want is a fighter jet constrained by the fact that the pilot's going to blackout if it pulls too many Gs.

• 3:05:47Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. Not just more Gs, but they're way better in dogfights. They win 100% of the time when they do AI versus trained, effective.

• 3:05:56Speaker 03

  You know when they'll stop winning 100% of the time?

• 3:05:58Joe Rogan?

  When?

• 3:05:58Speaker 03

  When the other side has them too.

• 3:06:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, that's right. That's, that's like the mutually assured destruction argument. Maybe that's our new one. It used to be nukes, now it's AI.

• 3:06:08Speaker 03

  Oh, it is.

• 3:06:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm hoping AI just takes the, when it becomes sentient and it is our new digital god. I hope it is just everybody calm the fuck down, settle down, live your life. But now we're, you made the new boss. We're going to be kind. We're going to be benevolent dictators.

• 3:06:28Speaker 03

  You, you've raised God a couple of times.

• 3:06:31Joe Rogan?

  I'm being joking about that.

• 3:06:32Speaker 03

  Oh, I know.

• 3:06:33Joe Rogan?

  One of the reasons why I am is because I, when I got up this morning after my crazy dream, I went to the gym, I put on this documentary on the Sumerian kings list. Because I've been really fascinated by this. It's a really loony thing that they found in Iraq in several different sites and it varies slightly, but it's all this list of people who ran the earth for tens of thousands of years. That's what their reign was like tens of thousands of years. And then there's this huge flood and then afterwards the timeline's become way more realistic. It's like 100 years, then he ran for, he was a king for 50 years, but he have it documented to like

• 3:07:13Joe Rogan?

  eight kings over the entire course of their civilization, including the places that these kings were ruled, that they ruled, that actually exist. Like these are ancient cities that are actually built on top of even more ancient cities that are below them. And these people in these bizarre kings lists, they're trying to say that this was an actual human being. This is an actual human being that lived that long. I don't know what that means, but they're the ones that have all this crazy stuff with the Anunnaki and from heaven to earth came and that they have, they had an understanding of stuff that was like way

• 3:07:57Joe Rogan?

  beyond what we thought they were capable of. They have Pythagoras theorem. They had, they had that a thousand years before Pythagoras, which is weird because this civilization sort of pops up out of nowhere. That's why I bring up God a lot.

• 3:08:12Speaker 03

  Okay, well, hold on, I want to get back to God, but I will just say that there is this increasingly fascinating thread about a recurrent disaster cycle and the possibility that sophisticated civilizations get erased and that we

• 3:08:30Joe Rogan?

  Rediscover.

• 3:08:31Speaker 03

  Rediscover, exactly.

• 3:08:32Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 3:08:33Speaker 03

  And I, you know, I wish that was a crazy story. It sounds like it should be, but I will say the evidence is

• 3:08:43Speaker 03

  Far too compelling to dismiss it. So I think, I think we have to be open to that possibility. And, you know, we seem to be heading into one of these catastrophic upheavals, which is something, you know, while we're busy dicking around with climate change, which is not what we're pretending it is, we are not dealing with this hazard to our civilization and figuring out how

• 3:09:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:09:14Speaker 03

  how to protect ourselves.

• 3:09:15Joe Rogan?

  And one of many, right? There's natural disasters we're not paying attention to. Of those three I atlas, everybody paid attention to, which is a very weird thing.

• 3:09:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:09:23Joe Rogan?

  But, yeah, I mean, you're, you're, you're completely right. And it's, um, we're just such a strange species, what we choose to focus on. It's, it's very, we're very bizarre.

• 3:09:37Speaker 03

  We are.

• 3:09:37Joe Rogan?

  That we're so illogical.

• 3:09:38Speaker 03

  We're squandering the most spectacular conceivable opportunity. And it's tragic that we can't do better. It's really, it's sad because, you know, we've, we're like that close, you know? We, we figured out a lot and we're going to squander it over some kind of stupid game.

• 3:09:58Joe Rogan?

  Also, I think what a huge disservice to not recognize that this is possibly a rebuilding of civilization, not just the emergence of civilization. And the more they look, the more evidence points in that direction. And the more people push back so hard, there's, they get so angry at the ideas of it.

• 3:10:14Speaker 03

  They sure do.

• 3:10:15Joe Rogan?

  They get so angry. And every time a new discovery happens, a date gets pushed back and it gets pushed back again, it's pushed back again. That, you know, there was a, Michael Button had a video that he put out about, there's some sort of inscriptions and writings on bone that they found in the Americas. I believe it was in Mexico. And they, it's completely fossilized. And they measured the strata around this, you know, so they get a comparative age of the area. And they're talking about it being 200,000 years old. So that means 200,000 years ago, possibly, if this is correct, there was humans in the Americas.

• 3:11:00Speaker 03

  Right, which, you know, if you're of a disaster cycle mindset.

• 3:11:09Joe Rogan?

  How many have we been through?

• 3:11:10Speaker 03

  Right.

• 3:11:11Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:11:12Speaker 03

  And, but, so I guess the point is, the fact that humans may have been here 200,000 years ago doesn't affect the story of how the humans that we know of here arrived after the last ice age, for example. So those two things could be true simultaneously.

• 3:11:33Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 3:11:33Speaker 03

  And it's just amazing how small-minded academics are.

• 3:11:40Joe Rogan?

  And why aren't they curious? Like, that's what's crazy. Like, why would you stick to your guns so much? They, like, the poor people that were trying to dispute Clovis first, like, that one guy? I, I, I forget his name. Jamie, see if you can find that guy's name. It became, like, attacked, like, ruthlessly by other archaeologists. They just did not want to believe that this guy was correct and that there was people that were here long before the Clovis people. And so they were smearing him. And then, White Sands, New Mexico, they find these footprints that are 22,000 years old. So they know for a fact there was people here pre-Clovis. Which is just nuts. Like, what did you guys do? Why did you attack him?

• 3:12:23Speaker 03

  Well, and what are the rules of the goddamn game?

• 3:12:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:12:26Speaker 03

  The problem is that these...

• 3:12:28Joe Rogan?

  Michael Waters and Thomas Stafford of Texas A&M University. So, yeah, so, so those guys are ruthlessly attacked. And by who? By the people that are supposed to be in charge of disseminating correct information at the highest level, which is nuts.

• 3:12:47Speaker 03

  The problem is that we have come to accept a proxy, which is the consensus of a field, for the real...

• 3:13:01Speaker 03

  Indicator of correctness.

• 3:13:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:13:03Speaker 03

  Predictive power. And, you know, humans are just not good at this because for one thing, humans do get involved in a competition for power. And so people will shut down a correct idea because it's not theirs and it will elevate somebody they don't want elevated. So as far as I'm concerned.

• 3:13:23Joe Rogan?

  It's gross.

• 3:13:24Speaker 03

  It's.

• 3:13:25Joe Rogan?

  So gross and it's so common.

• 3:13:26Speaker 03

  It's destructive of something our civilization is entitled to. We're entitled to the productivity of scientific work and instead what we get is cat fighting and it prevents the high quality stuff from.

• 3:13:44Joe Rogan?

  It's embarrassing too when you see professional intellectuals who are cat fighting on Twitter. You're like, good lord. Like, did you not understand what that exposes about your character? Like, that's all I need to know about you.

• 3:13:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 3:13:57Joe Rogan?

  Like, you're gross. This is gross. This is a gross way for a really smart person to behave. This is a, these are the words of a gross human being.

• 3:14:04Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 3:14:05Joe Rogan?

  And that's more common than not. And that's what's really nuts is that anybody that's challenging any of the current consensus, you immediately get labeled like the worst names in the book and it's just, you get connected to the worst ideas in society and like, holy shit, you guys are like little kids.

• 3:14:25Speaker 03

  Well, I can't stand it when somebody, somebody will try to shut me down. I will be saying something and they'll come back at me as if I'm morally broken for making an analytical argument with which they disagree. And my feeling is, first of all, if you know me and you've seen me be right before, then the fact that you and I disagree should cause you to have this thought. You should think, huh? That's interesting that he disagrees with me.

• 3:14:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:14:59Speaker 03

  Maybe he's wrong for the reason I think he is. Or maybe he's right and I need to know. I'll be better off if I do. But you shouldn't be trying to silence me. You should be trying to figure out whether I know something you don't. Right?

• 3:15:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:15:13Speaker 03

  But so frequently, that is not people's response. It is, "You must stop saying that."

• 3:15:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:15:19Speaker 03

  Right? Why? I can be wrong, right? Being wrong is part of how you get to be right. So this instinct to get people to... People with whom you analytically disagree to stop speaking is totally counterproductive for our collective goal, which is to be better, to know more, to accomplish more.

• 3:15:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:15:42Speaker 03

  Right?

• 3:15:42Joe Rogan?

  And the only reason why people shut you down is they don't have a strong enough argument. If they had a really strong argument and your argument was nonsense, they would tell you what was going on. But to shut you down, to stop you from talking altogether, it's like, "You must comply." And it becomes a power struggle. And it becomes a power struggle by people who feel virtuous. Like, they feel like they're in the right, so they get a chance to exert that power ruthlessly because they're correct and you have to stop Hitler.

• 3:16:06Speaker 03

  Yep. Absolutely.

• 3:16:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Dude, we just did three hours like that.

• 3:16:11Speaker 03

  We did.

• 3:16:12Joe Rogan?

  Um, thank you. Thank you for everything. It's always great to talk to you. It's always a lot of fun.

• 3:16:17Speaker 03

  Great show. Glad to be here and it's good to see you again.

• 3:16:20Joe Rogan?

  Dark Horse Podcast. Tell everybody where they could find that. Do you have... What's your website? Is it darkhorsepodcast.com?

• 3:16:25Speaker 03

  Um, I wish I knew the website.

• 3:16:28Joe Rogan?

  You know your own website. That's...

• 3:16:29Speaker 03

  Dark Horse Podcast.

• 3:16:30Joe Rogan?

  People will find it.

• 3:16:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, they will.

• 3:16:32Joe Rogan?

  But it's also, um, it's on... You're on everything, right?

• 3:16:35Speaker 03

  Uh, yes, we've been demonetized and they have taken the cap off our channel on YouTube.

• 3:16:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my goodness. Dot org.

• 3:16:42Speaker 03

  Dot org. There you go.

• 3:16:43Joe Rogan?

  Um, you guys got hit during the COVID days, right?

• 3:16:46Speaker 03

  We were demonetized for four-plus years.

• 3:16:50Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 3:16:51Speaker 03

  And what's more, what they did not acknowledge... They acknowledged that they demonetized us, but they capped our channel. So it stopped growing and as soon as they demonetized us, it started growing again.

• 3:17:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God. How gross. He who controls the algorithm controls the narrative.

• 3:17:08Joe Rogan?

  That's the devil. Yeah. All right. Well, I love you, buddy. Thank you for being here. You too, brother. All right. Bye, bud.