#809 Congressman Wants To Be Paid In Bitcoin w/ Rep. Tom Emmer

Tom Emmer Is a Congressman for Minnesota's 6th District. He is one of the leading voices in the Congress in regards to Bitcoin and Cryptocurrency. In this conversation, we discuss Bitcoin, Inflation, The current issues with our economy, why Tom would like to be paid in Bitcoin, and what he would do as President of the United States. ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= Compass Mining is the world's first online marketplace for bitcoin mining hardware and hosting. Compass was founded with the goal of making it easy for everyone to mine bitcoin. Visit compassmining.io to start mining bitcoin today! ======================= Crypto is all about democratization and freedom of choice. But many companies limit their offerings to centralized trading products. The crypto companies leading the pack in terms of innovation are those that extend access to the industry's cutting-edge products and services — bridging CeFi and DeFi. If you're searching for a platform that reflects crypto's promise of a more open and less restrictive financial future, look no further than OKEx. On OKEx now you can easily switch over to the new DeFi mode, connect OKEx's bespoke Web 3.0 wallet via browser extension and start exploring opportunities at the bleeding edge of crypto. From the DeFi Dashboard, you can monitor your portfolio of self-custodied assets across a range of blockchain networks and generate passive income from yield-farming with top DeFi protocols. In the NFT Marketplace, you can participate in exclusive drops and trade nonfungible tokens without secondary market fees. Meanwhile, the GameFi section is your portal to the latest and greatest in play-to-earn and blockchain gaming. Venture to the forefront of crypto innovation and connect with OKEx DeFi today. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Congressman Tom Emmer is from the state of Minnesota and is one of the leading voices in the political arena on Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. In this conversation, we talk about everything from the Bitcoin spot ETF to regulation, taxation, inflation, the Federal Reserve, and what he would do if he became president tomorrow. I really enjoyed this conversation with the Congressman, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is LMAX Digital, the number one institutional crypto exchange. They offer clients the deepest

• 0:43Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:27Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:12Anthony Pompliano?

  compassmining.io. Again, compassmining.io. Go check them out and let me know what you think. Last but not least are my friends over at OKX. Crypto is all about democratization and freedom of choice, but many companies limit their offerings to centralized trading products. The crypto companies leading the pack in terms of innovation are those that extend access to the industry's cutting-edge products and services, bridging C-Fi and DeFi. If you're searching for a platform that reflects crypto's promise, but more open and less restrictive financial future, look no further than OKX. On OKX now, you can easily switch over to the new DeFi mode. Connect OKX's bespoke Web3 wallet via browser extension and start exploring opportunities at the bleeding edge of crypto.

• 2:55Anthony Pompliano?

  From the DeFi dashboard, you can monitor your portfolio of self-custodied assets across a range of blockchain networks and generate passive income from yield farming with top DeFi protocols. In the NFT marketplace, you can participate in exclusive drops and trade non-fungible tokens without secondary market fees. Meanwhile, the GameFi section is your portal to the latest and greatest in play-to-earn and blockchain gaming. Venture to the forefront of crypto innovation and connect with OKX DeFi today. Again, go check them out at OKX. That's where you can find OKX DeFi. All right, let's get into this episode. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Representative Emmer, how are you?

• 3:55Speaker 02

  I'm doing great, Pop. I'm doing great. It's only 10 to 14 degrees here in Minnesota. All the mosquitoes are dead. All is good.

• 4:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Listen, it's Miami. Now, I know that you've got your constituents over there, but if you ever want to come get a little bit of sun and some nice warm weather, we'll gladly host you here. So you may like the smell.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Pop, you just had the freeze. I can't believe you say that.

• 4:19Anthony Pompliano?

  55 degrees and people were sitting inside. They were worried. All right, let's start with, you're a politician inside of the United States. Again, most people would think that every politician is stupid. They don't understand innovative technology. They're so out of touch with everyday Americans, yada, yada, yada, whatever. You seem to be the exact opposite and really understand some of the stuff that's going on with Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and digital assets. Why are you so focused on this area? What is the importance of it for kind of the American future? Like, what's drawing you to this industry?

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Well, a lot of it, Bob. First, thanks for having me. But the, you know, I did a state legislature more than a decade ago and got involved in different policy stuff. Then I had the good fortune to run into a guy that I did a radio show with about a little bit less than a decade ago, who used to tell me that he was a libertarian. And by the end of the show, I'd be telling him he's an anarchist. But he got me to look at things a little bit differently. And since I've been in Congress, you know, our monetary policy, I think, here in the United States and around the globe, has been managed less than well. Let's put it that way, since probably the early 70s, when we pulled it off the gold standard.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  So it first comes from that interest, right? In how we've managed our monetary policy, how I believe, once we pulled the US dollar off the gold standard, that we went from a country, a nation, a monetary policy that celebrates and promotes the creation of wealth, to one that promotes the creation of debt. And by the way, the only ones who can trade in debt are those that get bigger and bigger. So you either get devoured by those above you, or you fall to the bottom. Then along comes Bitcoin, the Satoshi White Paper. And it's, to me, the interest goes well beyond policy, because I think now, it's as much economic growth as anything else.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  And I just, I think the United States of America needs to recognize, and people in my position need to recognize, that much like the internet... You need to get out of the way. If anything, a light touch regulatory framework is appropriate. And then let the innovators in this space do what they do best. Start creating and growing new opportunities and frankly, bring the United States and the rest of the world into the 21st century.

• 6:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I completely agree that there's a room or a spot for regulation and rules, but obviously in kind of an intelligent, well-educated and well-meaning place. Talk to me a little bit about Fed policy. You mentioned a little bit that it's been less than well. One of the questions that I've been thinking a lot about, and I actually don't have an answer here, so I'd love your opinion, is for a central bank to be effective, they essentially need to be independent and somewhat predictable, right? We don't want one that kind of is all over the place from month to month or quarter to quarter. The idea of independence, though, I think is very unique. If you look at something like a Bitcoin-type network, it is a decentralized, digital,

• 7:32Anthony Pompliano?

  transparent system with programmatic monetary policy. You and I can't change it, neither can anyone else in the world unilaterally. And so there's this element of independence that comes from decentralization. The central bank that we have today in the United States, there's a lot of people who think that they've done some great things, some things not so well. How independent are they? And the reason why I've been thinking about this is we're going into the elections and how much of monetary policy decisions today are being driven by trying to get certain economic data points kind of under control before midterm elections versus doing what's actually good for the economy? You, you know, you sit inside the machine, like what do you see from an independence

• 8:13Anthony Pompliano?

  of the central bank and how they really kind of interact or intersect with the political kind of cycle?

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, people talk about independence, but it's a political machine like everything within government. And frankly, Pop, it's nothing more than another intermediary, right? The beauty of the decentralization movement, the blockchain technology, is that you don't need intermediaries.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Cryptocurrency, I believe, is facilitating our move, the evolution from Web 2, which is all about having intermediaries, whether it's YouTube, whether it's Twitter, whether it's Facebook, moving us into Web 3, which is where Pomp and Tom will have our own digital identities, where you and I could do business with each other without an intermediary. And quite frankly, this scares the bejesus out of these people, because this system has worked for them. I mean, there's a lot of us on the outside that have watched our monetary policy. We can point to things that they've done that has been appropriate. We can point to things that the Fed has done to stabilize the economy, I'm sure. But listen, when you're in the business of bailing out Wall Street,

• 9:23Speaker 02

  which, again, a lot of Americans, a lot of people make money through their investment portfolios, but it's got to be about a strong monetary policy that builds wealth. And quite frankly, I think what you're looking at right now, and this might be way out there, but I think the Keynesians have now morphed into the modern monetary theorists of the 21st century. These are people who live in Alice in Wonderland's financial fairy tale world, that they have this idea, Pomp, that a government that controls its own fiat currency can print and spend as much as it wants with never having any negative consequences. And on the other side of that equation,

• 10:05Speaker 02

  you have the end the Fed people, the gold standard people, the those that were Ron Paulites back in the day that have talked about the problem with the manipulation of our currency and it picks winners and losers. And I think that's what this is really all about. It's a debate that's been taking place for quite some time. And I think we've reached a point, and I might be stepping over the line a little bit, but I think we've reached the point where the Fed has become less and less effective. I think people look at them and say, who are you exactly working for? When you say your target inflation rate is 2%, which, by the way, they're making up for years of lost ground in the last 12 months.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  But think about it, the Fed has a target inflation rate. Every American who has saved and been disciplined and diligent for their retirement is paying a 2% tax that the Fed has determined. These are things I think that have turned people onto other avenues of investment and growth. And I think that mismanagement or intentional mismanagement has frankly driven cryptocurrency and other options in the financial world, these disruptive technologies.

• 11:26Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the things that cracked me up during the pandemic, especially kind of March to May of 2020, was it seemed like a lot of the quote unquote capitalists on Wall Street became socialists very quickly and all came begging to the government for bailouts, free money, etc. And to your point, I think there were some deals done where, you know, take the airline industry as one. They essentially asked for a deal that no one in the private capital markets would have given them. There was no equity or debt investor on the planet that would have given them $25 plus billion and said, by the way, a third of it, you just keep for free. We don't need anything for it. And so it's pretty crazy to watch, but we are here, can't change the past and only can go forward. Talk to me about the United States getting into the cryptocurrency game via the central bank digital currencies.

• 12:11Anthony Pompliano?

  I know that the CBDCs, obviously around the world, people are investigating them, they're researching them. Some people have started to create them, pilot them, etc. I know you've got a bunch of thoughts here. What do you think the United States' role on CBDCs should be? And kind of how do you think that we should play this out?

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Get out of the way.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  I just, it really has been disturbing to me to watch

• 12:36Speaker 02

  some of the leaders in our financial services sector suggest that we've got to try and play catch up and keep up with the Communist Party of China. They're practicing, in my opinion, pump digital authoritarianism, right? They look at this space as a, another tool to collect information on citizens and then control their behavior. That's not what the United States of America is all about. I think any, that's not to say that we shouldn't have some type of digital currency. I just think it would be better off done in the private sector in this country. That being said, if we were to go down this road, I definitely have some thoughts.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  The main one is if the federal government ever created some type of central bank digital currency, it must be open, permissionless and private. In other words, it has to be just like cash. Whether they can do it or not, I have no idea, but I do, I do throw something back at you, Pomp. It's interesting to me that the Federal Reserve is the one that's taking the lead on this. When I thought it was the Treasury, the way things are set up in this country that mince and prints our currency. It would seem to me that that's really where this should start. And again, I think there are a bunch of options out in the private sector that would put us

• 14:03Speaker 02

  way ahead of our peers in this space and frankly would keep a lot of the innovation, a lot of the business growth in this industry right here in the United States of America.

• 14:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's pretty incredible to kind of watch this play out. Another sector of this industry that you've been somewhat vocal about is the Bitcoin Spot ETF. Now, for years, we had no ETF in the United States. We basically had these publicly traded trusts. Other jurisdictions around the world, they went ahead and they've approved ETFs, ETPs, ETNs, you know, the whole alphabet soup. And when the new kind of administration came in, I think there was a lot of hope that, okay, these people understand Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and they're going to be somewhat sympathetic and kind of push some forward, some approvals here. We did get an ETF approval, just happened to be a futures-based one versus spot. What's your thoughts on the spot ETF? Is the futures one good?

• 14:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Should we be pressuring regulators to approve a spot? How does that work?

• 15:01Speaker 02

  Your last question, absolutely, we should be pressuring them to approve a spot. It's interesting, the...

• 15:09Speaker 02

  You look at what their mission is. The mission of the SEC and these other federal agencies is to protect Americans, right? Protect investors. And I get such a kick out of it. You said it. I felt the same way. I felt the last administration did have some champions, right? Hester Purce, Giancarlo, Brian Brooks, you know, some people that were really forward-thinking and thoughtful. But we were running into a lot of friction with the existing financial services establishment, the traditional financial, I guess, legacy financial institutions and this new disruptive technology.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  So I thought when we had a change of administrations, just like you brought up, Pomp, I thought we were going to have some new thought coming in. And frankly, it's been as difficult or more difficult. And Harry Gensler is one of the, what, villains, if you will, of the current theater production that is this administration and their approach towards cryptocurrencies and other financial instruments in this new digital age. You talk about the spot ETF. So they denied Scaramucci, a well-known name from New York. They denied an application from his group two weeks ago. They denied one from Fidelity.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  And again, they say they're protecting the individual American investors, which is their mission at the SEC, Pomp. But the intellectual disconnect or the intellectual inconsistency is where does the futures market get its price from? It gets it from the spot market. So you have to be asking yourself, and I just can't believe, and forgive me for this, but I can't believe they think we're this stupid, that the average American investor that is working hard every day to study this stuff and understand where it's going and what they might do, they understand how inconsistent this is. And now, rather than starting to work with us, and we're going to continue to put pressure on them, now they want to take it a step farther.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  I think the nuns at their lady of grace would have said farther or further. I can't remember. But the... They want to take it a step farther by changing the definition of an exchange so that it's not just facilitating a sale, facilitating a deal, but now it's putting sellers and buyers together. Think about that, Paul. If they actually do this, which by the way, I would argue this is Gary Gensler going around the legislative branch of government because he knows he doesn't have this authority, but he can somehow convince people through a rulemaking process that he's able to expand the SEC's jurisdiction, guess what?

• 18:02Speaker 02

  He's writing himself a blank check to weigh in on every single communication protocol out there. That's why I think it's really important for members of Congress, people with election certificates, to get up to speed and more importantly, to lean in and lean in hard.

• 18:19Anthony Pompliano?

  How interested are your peers in Congress or other elected seats? Are they tuned into this stuff or are they worried about other things? And there's a couple of you who have been pretty vocal and public about your thoughts, but most other people aren't paying attention.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Well, remember, there are a lot of other things to be worried about. So this is not a criticism of any of my colleagues who are focused on other things, whether that be this runaway inflation we haven't seen in forty some years, whether it be the crime wave that has, what, burned across this country, whether it's the open border, you name it, whatever it is, our geopolitical, the national defense threats, et cetera. So there's a lot of things to be worried about, but this area, this specific area, I would argue to you that the awareness has grown exponentially over the last four to five months. I think

• 19:14Speaker 02

  we got years of growth and awareness, maybe not understanding per se, but at least awareness, starting in August with the bipartisan infrastructure bill that included that misguided tax provision.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  That affects, well, affects a lot more than minors. I think that's what they were trying to do. But as soon as that happened, Pomp, the industry, those that are interested outside of government, really weighed in. And because of the force that came from people and entities who are working in this area, you had a lot of our friends on the other side of the building, the US senators, they woke up in a big hurry. And I think what you've seen on the House side, we have the bipartisan blockchain caucus that has more than doubled in size and it

• 20:09Speaker 02

  continues to grow. So the awareness is growing. On the issues, the specificity, I think we got two kinds of members. We've got members that are absolutely intent upon learning the details and understanding how we can allow the entrepreneurs in this space, not only to exist in this country, but to thrive in this country. And then there's another group who's coming to the party slowly, but they're more self-interested, which is one of the reasons, Pomp, directly, that I announced, both in my personal campaign and at the National Republican Congressional Committee that I run, that we're accepting campaign contributions

• 20:53Speaker 02

  in crypto. And it might sound like a selfish plug, but it's not. For all of your listeners out there, keep in mind that many of those of us with election certificates are very self-interested. I know this is going to surprise you, very self-interested and self-focused. And when they see other members starting to raise campaign funds through Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, you know what, Pomp? They suddenly become very interested. Hmm, maybe I should find out what that's all about. So selfishly, that's the the real reason why I did it is to get people in our community of elected officials to start saying, maybe selfishly, I don't care what the reason is that they've got

• 21:38Speaker 02

  to learn more about this and they got to get involved because I think time is of the essence, Pom. I don't think we have any time to waste here.

• 21:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that's a great point. If you were president for a day, what's like the two or three things that you would do for for the crypto industry? Like, are there things that if you could just wave a magic wand, you're like, bam, this is the first things that I would do?

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I actually, we do. We've got, what I would do right away is try to have a better definition, if you will, of the of what a currency is, of what a of what a commodity is, of what a what a security is. Because I think this has been one of the big problems, right? One of the big problems in this area is that you've got this smorgasbord of bureaucracies on the executive branch that all think they have some type of jurisdiction over the area. And it really causes a lot of friction for people who want to create new opportunities and uncertainty. You know, you've got you've got regulators like Gensler,

• 22:40Speaker 02

  who's out there regulating through enforcement. In other words, you start a project because you think this is a great idea. You want to do it right here in the country that you were born and raised in, or the country that you have adopted as your home, because it's all about freedom. And guess what? You get this thing rolling, and this guy decides now he's going to bring an action against you before you even know what the rules are. Or the other thing is just through a public statement. So some better definitions and jurisdictional definition of what is a currency, what is a commodity, and what's a security? And then, Pom, you're probably aware, I mean, I've got bills like the Safe Harbor for Taxpayers with Forced Assets Act, which Darren Soto and I have have offered. Darren is a Democrat

• 23:23Speaker 02

  from Florida. The Securities Clarity Act, and there's several others. There's a Safe Harbor, the blockchain regulatory There is a package of things that I believe we could do in short order that would create that light touch regulatory framework that would allow people the ability to make decisions with some type of certainty before they take risk. And that's all you need because if you have some type of certainty, let the risk takers take the risk because they're the ones who gain the reward. And by the way, when they're rewarded, all of us get the benefit of that reward.

• 24:07Anthony Pompliano?

  That's definitely true. In my opinion, I got two questions for you. Then my brothers are here and they're gonna ask you a couple of questions. But the first one is Minnesota, what would it take to put Bitcoin on the state ballot sheet? Anything, any conversations there or anything that you think could potentially happen in the next couple of years in terms of putting Bitcoin on Minnesota's ballot sheet?

• 24:25Speaker 02

  I think it's a great idea. And I'm just gonna tell you that I want to stay away from the partisan thing because I could be very critical. But I can be critical of Republicans just as well as I can be critical of Democrats. Right now, it would take some more forward thinking leadership, you know, something like your mayor down in Miami, something like some of the others that the new mayor in New York, who I find him very interesting because I don't know how, what, how detailed he is in his understanding. But I don't care because he's he's saying the right things about being forward thinking. And we could use more of

• 25:05Speaker 02

  that in Minnesota, you know, Pomp, we've celebrated the fact and anybody who's familiar with the old Garrison Keillor show, we've always celebrated the fact that us Minnesotans are just a little bit better than average and we should be able to get this figured out.

• 25:19Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. My last question for you is, you obviously, as a US Congressman, get paid in US dollars. There are now applications, something like maybe strike, that would allow you to pick a percentage and auto convert on payment a portion of your salary into Bitcoin. Would you ever think about doing something like that and taking a portion of your salary? Bitcoin?

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, why not? But I want to make it clear, I wouldn't restrict it to Bitcoin. I mean, I know that you and others in this area, in fact, I've got one in my office now. I kind of love him. He's he wrote me a thing about maximalist, which I'm kind of getting into. But the the idea that we can start to bring crypto into the mainstream, whether it's by converting some of our salary to that, or by allowing organically, I will make it clear, because I don't want anybody to take from my statements that I think it makes sense to mandate what people

• 26:18Speaker 02

  take as a bargain for value of exchange. But I think organically, Pop, I think if we allow this to be the opportunity, I think, yes, I would take advantage of it. I think there's a lot of people who would. And that, by the way, is how you can facilitate this evolution that we're in, while allowing the legacy financial institutions to, if they choose, to evolve with the financial industry or not. And you can ask some great companies of the past. Sears Roebuck is one that comes to mind that chose not to evolve, and we know what happens there.

• 26:59Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna send some folks up there to Minnesota. We're gonna get you hooked up. So you could be the first US national politician to take part of their salary in Bitcoin. I think that that may be good for business, for for your campaign and for the state of Minnesota.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  Remember, Pop, it's still January.

• 27:16Anthony Pompliano?

  So, all right, listen, for Bitcoin, we'll go anywhere. That's fine. We go to the metaverse, to the winters of Minnesota, or the summers of Florida. It's all good. Joe, what questions you got? Congressman, thanks for joining us. I really appreciate it. My question would just be around inflation. Like, where are your thoughts on it? What's going on? Do you think it's more supply chain stuff going on? Or do you think it was kind of how much money was injected in the economy? When does it get fixed? Do you think the numbers are accurate? Just your general thoughts on it?

• 27:41Speaker 02

  I do not think the numbers are accurate. I think they're probably worse. You know, when just like debt, Joe, think about it. If you own a business, and you don't have to list your retirement, your pension fund as a liability, boy, you're gonna look a lot better if you got a big pension liability, aren't you? That's kind of what our, our, uh, public municipalities can do across this country, our state. So, uh, inflation to me, uh, let me explain it in my, uh, Minnesota, uh, what, simple way. Uh, inflation began on January 20th of last year when, uh, uh, our new president effectively killed American energy independence. And I don't care where

• 28:26Speaker 02

  people are on the, uh, you know, fossil fuels, the Keystone Pipeline. My point is not to get into a debate about that. My point is that many people think energy is just what you put in your gas tank. It's not. Energy is everything that drives our economy. You have to have abundant and affordable energy first and foremost to drive an economy that, uh, and frankly, a lifestyle that we are all used to. Uh, and by the way, a lifestyle that improves, uh, every day. Uh, if you don't have that, uh, well, first it slows down and then second you get, uh, you get, uh, what we're into. And, and this is how. Because first you destroy American energy, energy independence. Second, you print all kinds

• 29:11Speaker 02

  of money because really you can. Uh, you don't, uh, you're not held to any standard. Uh, you can print as much as you want because remember it's backed up by the full faith and credit of the American government. That's great. Uh, so that's the second element. The third element is you've got, uh, a consumer base that has been locked up effectively for over a year. That has now got, uh, a whole bunch of money that's been injected into, uh, into their, uh, their budgets. Uh, and they've got pent up demand. So you unleash this, uh, this, uh, major, uh, weather system, uh, into the economy and guess what? You, you're gonna have, uh, a, a supply chain issue, uh, to begin with. And then start

• 29:56Speaker 02

  to, uh, uh, layer on top of that, uh, you know, whether it's China, whether it's the policies that I will say were, uh, were well intentioned, uh, increasing, uh, unemployment benefits, uh, you know, so. People could support themselves, but in fact, what you did is you created a disincentive for people to get in the workforce. And all that, Joe, one piece that my side doesn't talk about very much, but we've also reached a point, I believe it's the perfect storm, where we've got an aging workforce in this country that simply is aging out of the workforce. So all of these things are coming together and I'm going to tell you, until our government understands, it cannot control the weather.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  It has got to have a monetary policy that recognizes you can't print and spend at will without having any negative consequence. You have to control that side of it. You have to start to reduce all the dependence that you've created and get people back out there, improving their own lives and making things happen. That's when you'll start to get it under control. But first and foremost, it's you got to stop injecting these huge sums of cash into the economy and you've got to allow our energy sector to start to create an all of the above energy menu again.

• 31:20Anthony Pompliano?

  John, what questions you got?

• 31:21Speaker 03

  Great points there. You really can't print trillions and not expect some type of repercussions of that. So one way that the US government has tried to inject more money into their pockets and the pockets of other Americans is actually through taxation, right? So they are collecting more and more taxes in crypto. What are your thoughts and what would you like to see around taxation in the crypto ecosystem?

• 31:44Speaker 02

  Well, so this, by the way, it's both direct taxes and indirect taxes. I mean, people got to pay more attention to how their, this inflation, quite frankly, is a tax in itself, right? But the crypto space, this comes back to what I was talking to, talking about before. And that's, I think you need more definition as to what is considered currency. What is considered a security and what is considered a commodity? That, that will determine the taxation. I believe you have a system already in place. The problem isn't that, you know, we got to create a whole new tax system for. Cryptocurrency or or these types of assets. The problem is the government isn't willing to give us the definition so that we know what applies.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  That's what I went back to when I was talking about certainty, right? I think we should have an IRS safe harbor. So if someone starts a crypto project, starts a new whatever it might be. And it takes off that maybe in the beginning it looked like one thing, but once it takes off. It transforms itself into something else. Great. We should not have a taxable event until we define what it is. And then, in fact, we have a, I believe we have a framework already in place now. The way this this sector is growing and evolving, the speed with which it's moving. That might not be the perfect answer, but I believe that's where we start because the problem is. You got a lot of policymakers who think they have the ultimate answer.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  And they try to do something anticipating where the market is going or where the issues are. And guess what? They cause more problems than they do good.

• 33:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Congressman, when you think about kind of your work, you do everything from. Spend a bunch of time with your colleagues and peers, actually creating legislation and representing people. We all spend a lot of time talking to your constituents and people that are everyday Americans. I think maybe just in closing, help us understand kind of what are you hearing from them when it comes to inflation? When it comes to Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, as you kind of have people writing in, calling. Or just speaking to them in person, like what's the overall message? Maybe right now at the beginning of 2022, as we are about two years, you know, past. Kind of the start of the COVID-19 pandemic and a lot of the economic issues. What's the message that you're getting?

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Well, it may not surprise you, although I do run in many different circles. The traditional financial folks, as well as those that are, you know, been very skeptical of the. The financial system, those that are heavily involved in Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. You know what I hear more than anything else? And I'll, I'm going to paraphrase it because it's you get much longer discussions this than this. But especially from those that are on board, I think the last.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  Statement about, you know, these guys can print at will. I could defy gravity too. I think if I jump out this window, I'll fall a flight of stairs down. It will not, you can't change the way things operate. You can't spend, print and spend at will and not expect to have a bad result. And so what I hear from most of these people that are interested in this innovation, interested in this area, interested in how our monetary policy has for most of them been mismanaged throughout their lifetime is, I told you so. I mean, it's, it's basically that. I told you so. I knew this was going to happen. You know, every time we have one of these crashes, they come back and eventually they do the same thing.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  They set it up for the same failure. I told you this was going to happen. I, and then they'll tell you, I see a day coming where we're all going to be able to do business with each other directly. And frankly, guys, I want to be around for that. And when it comes to Bitcoin, it's not going away. And, and Bob, when it comes to your show, I got to tell you, I got a text message from, and I won't mention his name. I hope he's listening this morning because I haven't called him back yet. But I got a text message and a voicemail from a guy two weeks ago, three weeks ago that said, hey, a voice out of the past, probably from a campaign that I had 10 years ago.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Cause he's up on the North Shore, up where the, the snow is for adults and the cold is for animals. He, he called and said, you got to get on Pop's show. These guys know what they're talking about. And I, so.

• 36:16Anthony Pompliano?

  But by the way, we, we probably somewhere along the way, we paid that guy to do that. That, that must, that must be a plant. There's no way that anyone in our audience is that kind. Somebody definitely is pulling a trick on you. April Fools early.

• 36:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Well, listen Congressman, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. Again, I just appreciate now, I just want to say thank you from the entire Bitcoin and crypto community. I think that the work that you're doing is incredibly important. I know that at times you can feel like you're slamming your head against the wall and kind of out on an island, but just keep up the great work. There's a lot of people who are rooting for your success and hopefully we can get some return to some kind of intelligent discussion around keeping America at the forefront of innovation and continue to use this technology, which obviously is creating a lot of jobs, create a lot of economic prosperity and make sure that America stays as the leader on the global stage. So you're doing great work and keep it up.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Amen. Thanks, Pom.

• 37:12Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Sounds good. Talk to you soon. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you guys enjoyed this one. Make sure you subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to try to transition to get a new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to pompscryptocourse.com. We've developed a curriculum with the top teams across the industry. It's a three-week intensive training program with over 50 events packed into that three-week time period. Go to pompscryptocourse.com to learn more and I'll meet you guys for the next episode.