Mastering Mindset: A Deep Dive On Mental Toughness

It’s easy to look at top performers, elite athletes, and those crushing outrageous achievements—and conclude that their success boils down to sheer genetic luck, supreme talent, or unlimited resources. While success can be significantly influenced by those variables, all things being equal, the difference between those who manifest their aspirations and those who hold themselves back comes down to one distinct element: you guessed it, mindset. What are the consistent mindsets that allow high-performers to push the boundaries of their physical prowess? How do you create a positive mindset shift amidst a shitty situation? And how do you leverage mindset to achieve your goals? Throughout the last nine years, I’ve compiled a powerful arsenal of potent, life-altering ideas, perspectives and tools on how to cultivate, embrace, and apply a new and more personally meaningful approach to life. Today I present you with our fourth master class installment, which is a compilation of 11 incredible and unique perspectives on mindset and habit change taken from previous conversations—think of it the crème de la crème of the best and brightest ideas on personal transformation ever shared on this show. This deep dive anthology is chock full of big truths on fostering a mindset for success, leveraging gratitude to overcome obstacles, the importance of embracing pain, and why discomfort is the price of admission for a meaningful life. Guests featured in this episode (all hyperlinked to their respective episodes) include: Leah Goldstein Dr. Andrew Huberman Courtney Dauwalter David Goggins Mel Robbins James Clear Mirna Valerio James & Sunny Lawrence Susan David, Ph. D Peter Diamandis: Episode Coming 3/14/2022! Tommy Rivs Masterclass Series: Click here to listen to our first deep dive on the microbiome, here for our second on mental health, and here for our third on addiction & recovery. This is a powerful, and dare I say potentially life-changing gold mine of wisdom. My hope is that it serves as a guide on your journey towards fostering a mindset that will ultimately improve every aspect of your life, and gear you towards a more fulfilling, self-actualized way of moving through the world. To read more, click here. You can also watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Enjoy! Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:21Mel Robbins?

  A positive mindset changes you, which changes your ability to deal with the shitty situation that you're in.

• 1:28David Goggins?

  I'm gonna put myself through this much [bleep] pain and suffering for a few seconds of joy. It's so [bleep] worth it, man.

• 1:35Speaker 03

  It's behavior first, thoughts, feelings, and perceptions follow.

• 1:39Susan David?

  Mental strength is much more powerful than physical strength. It's in that zone that we have our greatest levels of growth. And yes, discomfort, but discomfort is, again, the price of admission to a meaningful life.

• 1:53Courtney Dauwalter?

  Our minds are so powerful, so even just like changing the storyline makes it a whole different game.

• 1:59James Clear?

  Just try to find a way to get 1% better each day.

• 2:01Mel Robbins?

  Interrupting the patterns of thought that are holding you back, it is the only way you're gonna change.

• 2:07Peter Diamandis?

  Mindset is the single most important thing that anyone can take out of this conversation.

• 2:17Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. Today, we're going to go deep on mindset and we're going to do it through the lens of experience and wisdom by dint of some of the most successful, impressive, and mentally tough people on the planet. By way of background, for the last nine years, I have put everything into this podcast and through conversation, we have compiled this really powerful arsenal of potent, life-altering ideas, perspectives, and tools on how to cultivate, embrace, and apply a new and more personally meaningful approach to life. And so, for the fourth time, today, we present you with this very special

• 2:59Rich Roll?

  masterclass episode that anthologizes the best wisdom shared over the years regarding habit change science, how to overcome obstacles, and foster a mindset that will ultimately improve every aspect of your life. Because, in the words of my friend Mel Robbins, "Mindset changes you." Your mindset can make you or break you. It can be so easy to look at the top performers, the elite athletes, and those crushing outrageous achievements and conclude that their success boils down to sheer genetic luck, or supreme talent, or unlimited resources.

• 3:41Rich Roll?

  And while, of course, success can be significantly influenced by the all of those variables, all things being equal, the difference between those who manifest their aspirations and those who hold themselves back often comes down to one distinct element. You guessed it, mindset. So, this is a powerful, and dare I say, potentially, life-changing collection of wisdom, and I can't wait for you to hear it. But first...

• 4:16Rich Roll?

  Leah Goldstein is undeniably one of the toughest people I've ever met. At just 17, she donned the bantamweight World Kickboxing Championship title. Later, joining the Israeli Defense Force and becoming a Krav Maga specialist and an undercover Special Forces intelligence officer. She then embarked on a professional cycling career, but after being told she might not ever walk again following a devastating crash, Lea leaned into her superpower, her mindset, to aid her recovery and launch a brand-new chapter in her extraordinary life. In 2021, at age 52, and entirely plant-based, I might add, Lea became the very first woman

• 5:01Rich Roll?

  in the 39-year history of RAM, the 3,000-mile race across America, to beat everyone, including all the men, and outright win the solo division. Here's a glimpse into the power of mindset when you've been told your physical prowess is over, that healing will be lifelong, and that achievements will be something of your past and not your future.

• 5:29Speaker 08

  When I reached the peak, kind of at that point where opportunities were handed to me, I had the mother of all crashes in Cascade. You start descending, and on those bikes, you can go very fast, almost up to 100 kilometers an hour, 80 miles an hour. And as we're descending, other riders are starting to come up, and I'm seeing like 85, 86. And then there's a rider kind of coming on my left-hand side, and you know, there's a centerline rule, and she kind of leans into me, and at 80 kilometers an hour, I land on my face. It was a nightmare. I mean, I shouldn't be sitting here today based on that crash, right? But being in that position, I mean, they basically told me that your career is over. You know, your ability to walk properly without a walker or a cane will be very limited, and then 100% you won't be back on your bike again.

• 6:13Speaker 08

  And that's what I was left with as I was lying there in, you know, in the trauma unit.

• 6:16Rich Roll?

  Right. So I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, like, Velo News dubbed this crash like the most epic crash. Crash of all time.

• 6:23Speaker 08

  Correct. At that time, correct. Yes.

• 6:25Rich Roll?

  And you were told that you might not walk properly again.

• 6:28Speaker 08

  Correct. I mean, I broke my, both my ischium was shattered, my hips were broken, my arms, fingers and toes busted, right? I was like taking a pretzel and basically stepping on it, right? You know? And I can't explain to you the worst pain I'd ever been through. Everything hurt all the time, breathing, blinking, people opening and closing the door, the wind from that, right? You know, it was, it was a tough go.

• 6:48Rich Roll?

  Wow. How long were you in the hospital?

• 6:50Speaker 08

  Well, they couldn't move me out of the United States for, I think, four weeks. And then they transferred me to, because I had to be airlifted from the crash to St. Charles in Bend, Oregon. And then my sister came to pick me up because I couldn't, you know, I, it was going to take a big process to drive me back to Canada. Because it's also getting expensive because medical is expensive here, right?

• 7:11Rich Roll?

  Okay, so months in the hospital.

• 7:13Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 7:14Rich Roll?

  But you have the gift of these doctors telling you, you're not going to walk again, let alone get on a bike and ever race again, right? So what do you do with that information?

• 7:23Speaker 08

  You can, you know, you know what I said to them in my head. I won't say it on air.

• 7:28Rich Roll?

  I mean, how do you begin the rehab process?

• 7:31Speaker 08

  Well, listen, the only thing I could do was contract my abs. That was the only physical thing I could do, right? But I basically made a promise to myself and I said, I don't care how long it takes or, you know, the kind of pain I'm going to go through. I'm going to get back on the bike. I'm going to race again and I'm going to come back even stronger than I did before all this happened, right? You know? And I think, you know, it happens to a lot of people when you're faced with this overwhelming situations, you don't know what to do. So you kind of buckle. So I knew I had a lot of work cut out for me, but I think everything is upstairs. It's what you believe in, what you make your body believe that you can do, right? Because honestly, if I believed everything that I was told, even growing up, again, I wouldn't be sitting here today.

• 8:07Rich Roll?

  Right. But, you know, we all have our breaking points too.

• 8:11Speaker 08

  We do.

• 8:11Rich Roll?

  But your ability to kind of compartmentalize all of that and just focus on, okay, I can do this, like. How much of your military training comes into play in terms of having the mental rigor to just block out, you know, the fear and focus on the task at hand?

• 8:30Speaker 08

  Well, I think the military has a lot to do with it because it was part of their job, even during my, you know, military training, to crack us mentally as best as they can, right, you know? Because mental strength is much more powerful than physical strength, we all know that. But for me, like at that point, going back to the hospital, I mean, how can they say something like that? I haven't even started my rehab, you know what I mean? Just to make that kind of prediction that fast, right? And I think that's the thing is that we're so quick to take the easy way out without being more optimistic of the things that we possibly can do, you know, and the possibilities of just going after the things that you believe in. Because sometimes you're not going to get support from other people, you're going to have to believe in yourself, right? And that's the thing is we're so influenced by other sources. But for me, I never was, never has been, and never will be.

• 9:14Speaker 08

  You know, what I want to do and what I'm determined to do, I'll make it happen. I'll find a way to make it happen.

• 9:19Rich Roll?

  Right. So, make it happen you did. Like, how long was the rehabilitation before you could get back on a bike?

• 9:26Speaker 08

  I was back on my bike race-ready in less than a season.

• 9:30Rich Roll?

  So, like-

• 9:31Speaker 08

  Eight months.

• 9:32Rich Roll?

  Eight months, wow.

• 9:33Speaker 08

  But every day, you know, I was better than the day before and just staying positive. And honestly, sort of got being in that positive mode, I could feel things starting to bind. Because when I went to get re-X-rayed at the General Hospital in Vancouver a couple of months later, they were floored at how fast I was recovering, you know?

• 9:52Rich Roll?

  And you attribute that to just being in motion?

• 9:55Speaker 08

  I think motion and mentally, you know what I mean? And just determined that I am going to get out of this.

• 10:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So, from the wheelchair, then, like, how do you, I mean, are you walking with a limp? Like, how is-

• 10:07Speaker 08

  Oh, yeah, no, it goes from wheelchair to a one crutch, you know what I mean? Bopping away, and then it was even wheelchair to wheeling to my trainer, which was on a, you know, on a bike, whatever. And it took me like 40 minutes just to get from the wheelchair, just to sit and be comfortable on the bike, because it was the flashbacks.

• 10:26Rich Roll?

  Despite the age-old adage, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks," what if I told you that you actually do have the power to change your brain and reprogram your perception irrespective of age? Meet neuroplasticity overlord Dr. Andrew Huberman. A neuroscientist and tenured professor in the Department of Neurobiology at Stanford University School of Medicine, Andrew specializes in the brain's inherent ability to modify itself based on experience and the many ways we can advantageously leverage this process. Here's a quick lesson on how to shift your perspective and sharpen your mindset through behavior.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  It's incredible, because if you think about sensation, perception, feeling, thought, and behavior, actually, the way to control our nervous system and feel the way we want to feel is to run that backwards. Behavior, thoughts. So if you change your behavior, then generally, your thoughts, your feelings, and your perceptions change. And everyone tries to come at it from the other end. And I really think that if neuroscience has anything to offer, it's some understanding of what the underlying chemicals and neural circuits are. But the sooner that the human animal, the human species, can start to understand that our feelings and our thoughts and our memories and all that is very complicated, but that when behaviors are very concrete, and they are the control panel for the rest of it.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  I don't want to relegate feelings. Feelings are extremely important. I don't want to relegate perception. They're extremely important. But when it comes to wanting to shift the way that you function, to get better, or to perform better, or to show up better, or to move away from things like addictive behaviors, it's absolutely foolish for any of us, me included, to think that we can do that by changing our thoughts first. It's behavior first. Thoughts, feelings, and perceptions follow.

• 12:26Rich Roll?

  Mood follows action.

• 12:27Speaker 03

  Mood follows.

• 12:28Rich Roll?

  This has been my mantra forever, and I swear by it. And now the science establishes that this is indeed the case. And yet, our programming, our default hardwiring is to put us in this place where we want to ruminate on all this stuff and wait until we feel like doing something before we do it, or check our motivations for it. But anytime I'm in a funk, or I want to change my state, I have to move forward. I have to do something with my physical body in order to shake things up and rearrange whatever's going on mentally. And it works every time.

• 13:04Speaker 03

  It works every time because the brain circuits, meaning sets of connections and chemicals, they're there from birth, they're there your whole life, and they were designed for that. So in 2018, a graduate student in my lab published a paper in Nature showing that in the face of a physical threat, there are three options. You can obviously freeze, you can retreat, or you can move forward. And the moving forward response actually triggers activation of a connection in the brain to the dopamine circuitry of the brain, and makes it more likely that you're going to be able to move forward in the future. Now, what was interesting to us was that not only is forward action rewarded at a neurochemical level, which then sets you up for more forward action, but the highest

• 13:47Speaker 03

  level of agitation and stress was associated with moving forward. We always think, well, if I just calm myself enough, I'll be able to move forward.

• 13:56Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 13:56Speaker 03

  But it's the exact opposite. And so, people who are paralyzed in fear, or that have a hard time initiating, sometimes the key is to raise the level of stress and agitation. This is why deadlines are so effective.

• 14:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 14:09Speaker 03

  This is why fear is so effective. This is why that deer gets up out of its nice little den and starts to move because it feels a certain level of agitation. If that agitation isn't high enough, we will not move forward. And so, especially in the US, we have a culture in which these ideas around stress is that it's terrible for us, when in fact, stress is designed to move us forward towards these action steps that are rewarded, which then move us forward, and so on.

• 14:35Rich Roll?

  So what is the process of combating that monkey mind that is running whatever narrative that's keeping you stuck? Like, it's easy to say, like, "Just move, you gotta take the action."

• 14:47Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 14:47Rich Roll?

  But a lot of people still, despite understanding that, intellectualizing that, are unable to, basically, act as if.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  Some people are just hypo-aroused. They're just not motivated enough. And those people would benefit greatly from cultivating practices like super-oxygenated breathing. So this is something along the lines of, like, Tummo-type breathing, so rapid, and we look at this in the lab, we're actually running a human study on this now. So 25 or 30 deep breaths through the nose and out through the mouth, then exhaling the breath and holding, learning how to self-generate adrenaline. That's what you're doing when you're doing that.

• 15:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, some version of the Wim Hof technique.

• 15:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what that is.

• 15:31Rich Roll?

  Or what Brian Mackenzie talks about.

• 15:33Speaker 03

  Some people are so agitated, the monkey mind, they've got too many things going on and they're thinking, "Okay, they're trying to sit down and write, I suffer from this, and I'm feeling like, wait, I've also got this person I need to connect with and I'm kind of being drawn off course by not being able to put the blinders on." For people that have that issue, I think learning how to calm the nervous system is very powerful. And a physiological sigh is two inhales followed by an extended exhale. So it's like, it's not just a deep breath, it's two inhales followed by an exhale, okay? And what that does, and this has been shown several times now in humans and other species as well, is it dilates the little sacs of the lungs, and that second inhale dilates

• 16:17Speaker 03

  them a little bit more, and it pulls a little bit of carbon dioxide out of the bloodstream so that when we exhale, we offload the maximum amount of carbon dioxide, and it perfectly adjusts the ratio of carbon dioxide and oxygen in the bloodstream and lungs. And sometimes it only takes one of these double inhale exhales, sometimes somebody needs to do two or three. But that's the fastest way to bring the autonomic nervous system down. A lot of people need such a tool because I think we talk a lot about meditation and tools for calm and I can go to Esalen for a weekend and get a massage, I'm gonna feel very good, but then when I'm thrown back in real life, I need something that's gonna work in real time, what I call a real time tool. Everybody should have a kit of tools

• 16:59Speaker 03

  that they can use to bring themselves down and ramp themselves up. And then what people don't realize is that mental focus follows visual focus. Blind people, it's slightly different, it follows auditory focus. But in most people, your visual focus, as you bring that into really sharp relief, that image of your book and you stare at it, you're gonna feel some agitation and your mind's gonna be jumping all over the place, but if you wait just a couple of minutes, the rest of the world will disappear. I think this is sort of like the flow state people are looking for. But remember, the gate of entry, you have to wade through some sewage before you can swim in clear water. That's the way I always think about it. But the visual focus is what brings the rest of the

• 17:39Speaker 03

  brain into cognitive focus. And people in the martial arts understand this. You've probably experienced this running when you're feeling exhausted and you can just concentrate on one milestone and get there. What you're doing is you're linking that to the dopamine circuitry. You're saying that thing is the milestone, not winning the race, not some other thing outside this immediate environment, that thing. And when you're able to start capturing these peripheral circuits, meaning the body, the diaphragm, the visual system, then you start getting past this whole idea of mindsets and it really becomes about the body setting the mind. And this is where I think when you say, "Action leads the rest", right? What you're saying is grounded in real neurobiological data.

• 18:26Rich Roll?

  Next up, we're gonna hear from the humble master of grit and boundary busting physical prowess, Courtney Dauwalter. Arguably, the world's best ultra runner, Courtney's recipe for success isn't about cutting-edge training plans, coaches, or carefully honed nutrition. In fact, she actually abides by none of these. For her, it's instead found in seeking out and celebrating what she calls "the pain cave", that deep place of physical discomfort that most go to great lengths to avoid. In this clip, Courtney shares a few of her mindset techniques and tactics that have propelled her superhuman feats of endurance and exactly what it means to carve a path

• 19:09Rich Roll?

  through your own pain cave. When you go to sleep at night, like, do you ever ponder, like, what is the differentiator between you and your fellow competitors?

• 19:21Courtney Dauwalter?

  No, I don't ponder. Oh, man. I mean, I think, like, everyone can be pushing themselves, so I can't compare, like, what it's like in someone else's body or head and then what's going on in mine. So I have no idea. But I do know, like, I enjoy that place that we get to go to in these ultras where it hurts really bad. I think that's pretty cool. And, I mean, that's gotta help, like, not avoiding it, but wanting to get to it has gotta be, like, factored in there somehow.

• 20:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Sure. Okay. Let's go a little bit deeper. Tell me a little bit more about what that is, when you reach that point or that limit or that place where you feel like you can't put one foot in front of the other. Like, what is the lesson that you find for yourself in that?

• 20:23Courtney Dauwalter?

  So I call it the pain cave, that place. And I guess probably four or five years ago, I viewed the pain cave as, like, this place that you should try to put off as long as possible in a race, like, make your pain cave be as far away from you as you can. And if you arrive to it, then you just sit in it and you try and survive the pain cave. But in the past couple of years, I mean, it's just a mindset, right? It's, like, all in our heads, this thing. And in the past couple of years, it's been the place I want to get to. So, like, changing it to a place where I get to celebrate that I made it there. And then that's where the work actually happens.

• 21:08Courtney Dauwalter?

  So making the pain cave bigger is how I view it, instead of, like, pushing the pain cave away. And I think, I mean, our minds are so powerful, so even just, like, changing the storyline... Makes it a whole different game.

• 21:23Rich Roll?

  Right. So what is the story that you, like, what is the script that you flip when you're in that headspace and it's getting really hard?

• 21:31Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, it's like, perfect, this is what we wanted. Like, now we get to actually do the hard work of making the cave bigger. And so it's like picturing a chisel and just like making tunnels in my pain cave in my brain.

• 21:46Rich Roll?

  Right. You actually visualize that?

• 21:49Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I'm super visual.

• 21:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I like that. It makes it very visceral and like real. It's not just a mantra, and mantras are great, I'm sure you have mantras, but actually creating that three-dimensional image in your mind.

• 22:04Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, and all, I mean, it's just telling myself a different story about that place where it hurts so bad. You know, where before it was like surviving it and now it's like, this is so cool, we made it here and now we work.

• 22:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's funny, I've been doing this podcast thing for a couple of years at this point, and I've had a lot of people on who have done hard things, and I have psychologists and psychiatrists and mindset experts, and everybody kind of comes to the table and they're like, this is how you do it. And it's like, step one, two, three, and like, when your mind does this, and you're just like, well, I just, you know, like, you just, it's very refreshing because what it does is it dispels this myth that it has to be complicated, or that there is a right or a wrong way. Like, you're just embracing life in all its colors and have figured out this thing that works for you. But it's welcoming to people because, because you're saying, like, look, you know, I'm doing this,

• 23:02Rich Roll?

  you can do this too. Like, there's a, I mean, welcoming to repeat myself, I think, is what it is. Like, you're creating space for other people to see greater possibility in themselves because of that relatability.

• 23:16Courtney Dauwalter?

  Well, thank you. That's very kind.

• 23:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, I think it's powerful. It's really powerful. In the equation of mind versus body, like, how do you think about that? Like, how much of it is physical prowess versus mental grit?

• 23:31Courtney Dauwalter?

  It's both for sure, and I think in an ultra, it trades back and forth between the two. So like maybe for a while, your physical has to pull more of the weight because it can. And then if that's giving out, maybe the mental takes over for a while. So I think they tag each other out back and forth where you need them for sure. Like physically, it's hard to run this far. But mentally, you can move your feet much farther than you think.

• 24:03Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah. Ultimately, I think the differentiator is in the mental game because everybody, especially at the elite level, is training really hard. And there's only so much training that you can do before you get injured or you overtrain, right? So when you toe the line at the starting line, you can be assured that everybody who's a threat to your dominance has put in the work that you've put in, right? So the person who's going to win, it's going to come down to who's going to crack mentally when the tough gets going.

• 24:34Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, and like who can problem solve efficiently or not let problems that come up ruffle their feathers too much. I think that's huge in ultras.

• 24:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just being able to maintain that positive disposition.

• 24:49Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 24:49Rich Roll?

  Rather than, oh no, this is terrible.

• 24:51Courtney Dauwalter?

  Right.

• 24:52Rich Roll?

  Awesome, this is what it's about, right?

• 24:54Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 24:56Rich Roll?

  How do you keep a smile on your face and tell jokes and do all that stuff when you're so freaking exhausted?

• 25:04Courtney Dauwalter?

  Jokes help everything.

• 25:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 25:08Rich Roll?

  That's part of the strategy. Sneaky.

• 25:11Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 25:14Rich Roll?

  Mastering mindset begins with expanding your sense of personal possibility. That is the hidden key that unlocks reservoirs of potential and ultimately sets you on the path to becoming the best version of who you are. I can think of no better exemplar of this truth than the mighty one himself, David Goggins. Often referred to as the toughest athlete on the planet, David is the only member of the US Armed Forces to have completed SEAL training, including three hell wakes, in addition to the US Army Ranger School and Air Force Tactical Air Controller Training.

• 25:57Rich Roll?

  His remarkable feats of strength include finishing near the top at dozens of the world's most grueling endurance races, including the Hurt 100, the Leadville 100, the Moab 240, Western States, and many more. But perhaps David's greatest accomplishment is that throughout his life, he has faced and overcome a succession of just seemingly insurmountable obstacles to become the man he is today. Obstacles like asthma, sickle cell anemia, psychological and physical abuse, obesity, and even congenital heart defect that often left him competing and winning on a mere fraction of his actual physical capabilities. All of which is, of course, chronicled in his fascinating memoir, Can't Hurt Me.

• 26:42Rich Roll?

  Here is David Goggins.

• 26:47David Goggins?

  So think about this. I put everything on David Goggins to be a Navy SEAL. It's like going to the crap table with your last $1,000. And you say, you know what? I'm gonna put everything on black, and hopefully I'll win. If not, I'm broke. I put my whole life, a guy that was scared of the fucking water, a guy that could fucking taught himself how to read and write, on being one of the hardest motherfuckers on the planet. Think about that shit. A guy that came from nothing. I put my whole life, and I'm gonna go out here and put everything on David fucking Goggins to be a Navy SEAL. Not to go be a fucking Boy Scout or some shit, a Navy SEAL. And I look at that, and I did all this shit just to get the opportunity to succeed.

• 27:31David Goggins?

  That's what people don't fucking understand, man. If people see the end result, I remember that guy saying, my God, man, I can't believe what the fuck I've just done. I put everything, ruined relationships, ruined this, ruined that, put everything on. In fact, I have to become someone in this world, or I'm no good for anybody.

• 27:48Rich Roll?

  And where does that come from? Where did that compulsion, that drive?

• 27:52David Goggins?

  It comes from a disgusting place of not being fulfilled in your life, of afraid of dying, having never accomplished anything. That's a fear that some people run away from, that people don't want to face. When you have a real fear of dying and being just another person, that I lived to pay the bills, I made a thousand dollars a month. This is my life. I prayed for cockroaches, man. If that makes you feel good, that's great. It didn't make me feel good. I wanted to, the first time in my life, after 26 years, it was 24, 25, wherever I was, I wanted to feel good about myself. And that was the ticket for it.

• 28:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, you have this huge reservoir, this capacity to leverage pain and circumstance to drive change within yourself.

• 28:45David Goggins?

  Right.

• 28:45Rich Roll?

  To be able to not be a victim, but to look at pain as your friend, as a catalyst for growth. And I think there's a lot of people out there. Look, if you're in enough pain, that's going to move the needle for you. There's a lot of people out there that are in just enough pain where they're willing to just settle for what they have because they're not in enough pain to change.

• 29:06David Goggins?

  Right.

• 29:06Rich Roll?

  And the fear of change outweighs the pain of their daily existence.

• 29:11David Goggins?

  You know, the one gift I have, with all that being said, what you just said there, is I have the ability to see the end before the beginning even begins. And what that means is I know that to get to the very end, I can see it right now. So before I went to BUDs, and I was losing all this fucking weight and shit, I saw myself walking across the fucking stage at 191 fucking pounds, because that's what I had to get to get into the door. I saw myself, six months, a year later, wherever it's going to take me to do it, I saw myself walking across that stage, getting that fucking certificate of graduation from BUDs. And I was able to be there at 300 fucking pounds. And that feeling, that I was nowhere near that fucking feeling, I was able to put myself there a million

• 29:56David Goggins?

  times, every fucking day. And that feeling of like, my God, that is going to feel fucking amazing. That's what made me suffer. That's what allowed the pain to be real and say, this is worth it. I want to feel for this fucking next 18 months, it took me 18 fucking months to finally come to Navy, to finally, you know, just get through BUDs. 18 months, it's six months, took me 18. That's woke me up every fucking morning was I'm gonna put myself through this much fucking pain and suffering for a few seconds. That's all it is. A few seconds of joy. It's so fucking worth it, man. That's what people don't get. So I'm able to put myself at the finish line,

• 30:37David Goggins?

  even though I have no finish line, but at the finish line of an event before I even start the motherfucker to say, how are you gonna feel at the end of this?

• 30:46Rich Roll?

  Well, visualization is one of the challenges and part of that is not just visualizing success or living in the reality of achieving what you're setting out to achieve, but also visualizing how you're gonna navigate all the obstacles that are gonna get thrown in your path.

• 31:03David Goggins?

  Right. Visualizing is my biggest tool of life. That's why I've been able to put myself in cold water, put myself in a hundred mile race, millions of times before I've done it. And I've been able to go through the race and see I'm gonna feel at mile fifty, almost to the exact, exact feeling.

• 31:21Rich Roll?

  Right. So when it comes up, it's no surprise?

• 31:23David Goggins?

  It's no surprise. I've already done this a million times. And that's the one thing I practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced overnight. But also, the most important thing is I practiced that feeling of accomplishment that I'm gonna have and it's all said and done with.

• 31:36Rich Roll?

  The crazy thing about the Asfab story is that in addition to having to pass this test and get that fifty, you also had to lose a hundred pounds in like, what, like thirty days or some crazy short period of time?

• 31:49David Goggins?

  No, it was less than, it was less than three months.

• 31:50Rich Roll?

  Right. Okay, three months. But you compartmentalize these two tasks and say, "Look, the first thing I gotta do is I gotta pass this test because the weight doesn't matter if I don't get that fifty." And you shelved or put off losing the weight to focus on the academic end of it until you, you know, completed that hurdle and then you looked at the weight stuff.

• 32:10David Goggins?

  I'm like that now to this day.

• 32:11Rich Roll?

  And you still got it done. But it's like being focused on one thing at a time.

• 32:15David Goggins?

  I had to be very present in everything I do. Like right now, I'm a ritual. I'm not thinking about shit, but Ritual. And what the fuck's coming out of your mouth right now? That's what gives me a huge advantage in life, especially today, in this day and age with so much shit going so fast and everybody wants to keep everything going, everything up and everything. I want to be the greatest multitasker of all time. Not me. If I put my 100% into what's in front of me, I will destroy it. If I'm out here just multitasking this shit, I'm going to half-ass everything I do. So it is the most important thing in the world to me is being focused at the task at hand.

• 32:50Rich Roll?

  And it's getting harder and harder to do that because there are so many distractions and it's so easy to distract yourself.

• 32:56David Goggins?

  Yes, it is.

• 32:56Rich Roll?

  You don't ever have to be bored again with these things in our pockets.

• 32:59David Goggins?

  No, but the one thing I'm most scared of in the world is losing touch with the best thing in the world is your mind, your mindset, how you can picture yourself, how you can focus, how you can drive, how you can put yourself in so many situations, get out of it. Because those headphones we listen to, those phones that we Google to find information, there's so many situations in my life where that shit's not going to help me. It's not going to help me.

• 33:22Rich Roll?

  And you're able to just turn that off.

• 33:24David Goggins?

  So fast, because I know what's helped me. None of that stuff's ever helped me. None of that stuff's ever helped me. What has helped me has been me alone, getting my shit together and being accountable for who I'm not and who I want to be. So that's helped me.

• 33:44Rich Roll?

  There is no one quite like David, so if his message is resonating with you today, please remember that you can find the links to these full conversations in the description below, if you're watching on YouTube, or in the show notes on the episode page at ritual.com. My next guest is coming up right after a few brief words from our sponsors. On deck is the multi-talented hyphenate and queen of grounded, science-backed, personal transformation, my friend, Mel Robbins. Mel is a former lawyer turned CNN legal analyst turned mega bestselling author and talk show host.

• 34:28Rich Roll?

  She's a powerhouse and one of the most widely booked public speakers in the world. She recently graced the show with a powerful primer on moving through the world with greater confidence. Here's a slice of that magic.

• 34:44Mel Robbins?

  Like, here's the thing about mindset. A mindset will not change the shitty situation you're in. A positive mindset changes you, which changes your ability to deal with the shitty situation that you're in.

• 34:58Rich Roll?

  The only way to shift out of any of these kinds of scenarios is to take an action first, right? As hard as that is. And the emotions, the perceptions, all of that follows action, not the other way around.

• 35:15Mel Robbins?

  Hundred percent true. So, how I discovered this in my life is during this horrible period in life. So, 2008. Every morning, I would wake up and I would immediately start spinning the negative thoughts. "We're fucked, I hate my husband, how did we end up here? I can't believe I did that stupid-ass show, I've made so many mistakes, I should just flush my li-" you know, the last forty years down the toilet. "I'm so embarrassed, I'm the world's worst mother." I'd stare at the ceiling. I was like a human pot roast, marinating in fear. And then, of course, the anxiety would wave up my body and pin me down to that bed, and I'd hit the snooze button. And I would hit the snooze button four or five times a morning. By the time I woke up, the kids had missed the bus. So, we got three kids under the age of ten.

• 36:00Mel Robbins?

  Chris was long gone, because he's a very smart man and he did not want to be in the house when I was awake. And he was trying to fix the situation that they were in. And I would literally scream at the kids, get them in the car, and from there the day, it was just horrible. And then every night, I would do the same thing. I'd say, "That's it, tomorrow morning, it's gotta be the new me." Everybody that struggles with addiction does this exact same thing. "Tomorrow, I'm not drinking, that's it, I'm done with this." And then the next morning, it's the same fucking pattern of negative crap that you're doing to yourself. And this is exactly what you talk about all the time. It's not the "what" you need to do, it's "how." How do you make yourself do the things that feel hard or scary, or don't seem like they're gonna work because you're resigned and you're stuck in your patterns? That was me.

• 36:45Mel Robbins?

  I knew I needed to get out of bed. I knew I needed to stop drinking. I knew I needed to look for a job. I knew this wasn't Chris's fault and I needed to stop screaming at him all the time, but I wasn't doing any of those things. I didn't know how. And so this was the moment I created the five-second rule. I'm sitting in front of the television and I am watching TV. The kids are in bed and I'm drinking bourbon and I'm probably on like my fourth Manhattan and I'm having my nightly pep talk and I'm going, "That's it. Tomorrow morning, it's the new me. I gotta wake up. I gotta do this. I gotta do the other thing." And all of a sudden, Rich, honest to goodness, I see a rocket ship launch at the end of a commercial. And I go, "That's it. Tomorrow morning, I'm launching myself out of bed like a rocket." And that was the beginning of the five-second rule.

• 37:29Rich Roll?

  What's so interesting about that, you talk about like hitting your bottom, and this is a bottom for sure, but in that kind of reckoning where the pain of your current circumstance exceeds the fear of doing something different, no matter how small that difference is, there's like a crack in the universe, like a little opening, right? Where you have just the slightest bit of willingness that you didn't have the day before. And even the tiniest action, whether it's picking up the phone to make a call or counting back down from five, when you look back now, it's like, "I did a couple little things that changed my life forever. This incident, you know, obviously changed your life forever."

• 38:12Rich Roll?

  And it's kind of amazing, in a beautiful mystical way, how that occurs.

• 38:17Mel Robbins?

  Well, let me tell you my intention for this conversation. That you, listening to us, have this podcast be that crack that lets some light in and becomes a sliding door, that you might just see, "Oh, wow, maybe if that phone call I'm avoiding, or counting backwards, five, four, three, two, one, or high-fiving myself in the mirror, even though I don't think I deserve it and I think it's stupid and I'm a failure and why is this gonna help?" That you try it. Because I think that any change in trajectory was just a moment. And for me, that moment was when the alarm went off, I just counted backwards like NASA launches a rocket, five, four, three, two, one, and I stood up.

• 39:02Mel Robbins?

  And you know what my first reaction to it was?

• 39:05Rich Roll?

  This is fucking stupid.

• 39:07Mel Robbins?

  Correct. Resignation.

• 39:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:11Mel Robbins?

  It was immediately like, "Okay, so you can get out of bed." So fucking what? You're $800,000 in debt, Mel. How is this gonna help? And thankfully, I thought, well, what the hell do I have to lose? Why not just, for one day? Anytime, Mel, you know what you should do, but you don't feel like it. Or anytime your emotions start to hijack you. Or anytime you feel afraid, or anxious, or whatever. Why don't you just count backwards and see what happens? And that's what I did.

• 39:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:42Mel Robbins?

  And I haven't looked back. But so, here's the other thing that that taught me. It's what gave me that sort of high-five attitude, this mantra. Because I, as I was schlepping through airports, and I'm thinking, I'm the world's biggest failure, I kept saying this to myself on repeat. There is no way, Mel, if you've worked this hard, that you will not be rewarded. You have to believe that this moment is preparing you for something amazing that hasn't happened yet. Keep going. You have to believe that this moment is preparing you for something amazing that hasn't happened yet. Keep going. And so, I repeated that over and over and over and over and over again

• 40:24Mel Robbins?

  as I wanted to throw in the towel, as I would start to bash myself, as I would start to feel sorry for myself, and be like, nope, there's just no way I'm gonna believe that something amazing isn't gonna happen. I've worked too hard. Something amazing that hasn't happened is coming. And when you get yourself into that mindset, it creates a sense of resilience and momentum and resolve that you need in order to keep going when the shit hits the fan, or when you feel disappointed, or when life is beating you down. And that was the other gift of that moment, is developing a little tool to flip my mindset when I wanted to start to feel sorry for myself.

• 41:07Mel Robbins?

  And part of the genius of this is that when you start counting backwards, you've already committed to taking action. So the counting itself moves you from a bias towards thinking, toward a bias toward action. And the more you repeat it, the more you break the pattern of thinking and you program in a pattern of taking small actions. It creates agile moves and agile mindset. So that's one thing. The second thing that's crazy cool about this is that the reason why it's so fucking hard to change is because you talk about changing with the prefrontal cortex. You're conscious when you sit in your therapist's chair or you're listening to me and Rich, and you're using this sort of strategic part of your brain. The second that you're in a situation where you're procrastinating

• 41:52Mel Robbins?

  or you're thinking negative thoughts, it's your subconscious that's in charge of you. And so in order to change, you have to interrupt subconscious patterns. You see, the five-second rule isn't just some dumb counting backwards thing. It is a form of metacognition that interrupts the pattern stored in your subconscious brain. Counting backwards requires you to focus, which flips on your prefrontal cortex. It gives you a moment of control over what you think and do next. That's the genius of it. And the reason why I'm so fucking passionate about this is not only because kids can use it and senior citizens can use it, you don't have to have any kind of education or speak any kind of language. It works for anybody that uses it,

• 42:36Mel Robbins?

  is because I am now standing with millions of people that have tried it. And we have pediatricians around the world that are using it to help kids interrupt thoughts that trigger anxiety, veterans organizations that are using 54321 to help reprogram responses to triggers. We had an entire wing of a Pennsylvania psychiatric inpatient nursing unit show up at the talk show to tell me that of all of the tools that they give people that have an inpatient commit, the single most positive and effective tool is the five-second rule. Because it is simple, you remember it, and it immediately interrupts the negative and suicidal ideations that torture people. And speaking of suicide,

• 43:21Mel Robbins?

  we know of 111 people who have stopped themselves from taking their lives by 54321.

• 43:29Mel Robbins?

  Asking for help. So I am here to tell you, I don't give a fuck how stupid you think this is. I want you to try it. I want you to share it with people because interrupting the patterns of thought and behavior that are holding you back and pushing yourself to take action or to think something different, it is the only way you are going to change. And this is a tool that's going to help you bridge that gap.

• 43:52Rich Roll?

  Boom! We just found the clip. Pull that clip. Why is it so hard to overcome negative patterns? Well, James Clear, New York Times bestselling author of Atomic Habits, says, "The problem isn't you. The problem is your system." One of the most popular episodes to date in the history of this podcast, James graced the show back on episode 401 and taught us new ways to perceive behavior change, starting with the 1% better rule. Here's a glimpse into that exchange.

• 44:29Rich Roll?

  If you could leave us with a couple of things that people can take away to perhaps, you know, kind of tweak how they look at and think about the habits that they're trying to change in their own lives and some simple steps to get them started making better decisions.

• 44:49James Clear?

  Sure. So I'll give you one mindset shift and one practical application. So the mindset shift, and this kind of lies beneath the entire conversation we had today, is to just try to find a way to get 1% better each day. It doesn't need to be something radical. It doesn't need to be something huge, but habits are easy to overlook, both good and bad, on any given day because they don't seem like very much. The difference between studying Spanish for an hour tonight and not studying at all seems like nothing because it's like, well, I still didn't learn the language. And the difference between eating a salad versus eating a burger and fries seems like nothing because your body looks the same in the mirror and the scale is the same at the end of the night. It's only once your habits have compounded over two or five or 10 years that the full

• 45:34James Clear?

  impact of those 1% choices, 1% better or 1% worse, becomes fully apparent. And if you can understand that concept and internalize it, then you can start to see the importance in your daily actions and in your daily habits and why those are so critical. So that's the first thing is just try to find a way to get 1% better. And the second thing, just a practical application, I would encourage you to try to apply the two minute rule. Think about whatever habit it is that you're trying to build and scale it down to just the first two minutes of the behavior. What is the thing that you can do that can initiate it? Don't think about it as like the overall habit. Think about it like a gateway habit or an entrance ramp to a highway. How can you automate the beginning of the behavior?

• 46:16James Clear?

  This is maybe an important distinction about habits. A lot of the time we talk about habits. We use the phrase habit for things that aren't actually habits. Like we'll say something like, I want to build the habit of writing every day. Technically, a habit is a behavior that can be performed more or less automatically. It's on autopilot. Writing is about the most effortful, concentrated thing that you can do, right? Like you're going to be thinking carefully. You're not going to be on autopilot.

• 46:40Rich Roll?

  So the habit part of that would be I sit in a chair at a desk with a pad of paper in front of me or a laptop.

• 46:46James Clear?

  The habit is the first two minutes, right? How can you automate the ritual of getting started? And then let the consequence and the effortful concentrating work follow naturally. A lot of people have heard stuff like this before, like, hey, take small steps. But even when you know you should start small, it's still really easy to start too big. People are like, all right, I want to build the habit of running. So I guess I know I should start small, so only run for 15 minutes. But even that's like way bigger than what I'm talking about. Scale it down to just the first two minutes. Automate the ritual of getting started, putting on your running shoes, stepping out the door and locking the door. And if you can automate that and make that a habit and you do it day in and day out, and you're the type of person who always gets their running shoes on and steps out the door. There are going to be a lot of days where you go.

• 47:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's great advice.

• 47:31James Clear?

  There are some sections that I find really interesting, like there I have a section on genes and habits and like choosing.

• 47:36Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, we had written down to talk about like genetic factors.

• 47:39James Clear?

  Yeah, I mean, we can talk about.

• 47:40Rich Roll?

  Let's do it.

• 47:41James Clear?

  All right. Well, we often don't like to talk about genes in biology because it seems like a fixed characteristic, right, by saying that like, oh, your genetics have seemed, nobody likes to think like, oh, what's out of my control, why bother? But the truth is, the usefulness or the applicability of your genes is highly dependent on context. So being seven feet tall is an incredible advantage if you're trying to play basketball, and it's an incredible disadvantage if you're trying to be a gymnast. And just as that is very obvious with physical traits, it's becoming increasingly true as we develop more understanding of the link between genes and psychological traits, or what we would call your personality. And so for certain personalities, certain habits, or certain environments, might be

• 48:23James Clear?

  predisposed to being really successful, enjoyable, or not. I think there's a lot to improve in this area. I think there's like a lot for us still to learn. So in many ways, we might just be in the infancy of understanding this. But one of the best measures, or most robust measures of personality is the big five, in this kind of like mapping personality traits onto five different spectrums. The most common one that people know is introversion and extroversion, but there are other ones as well, agreeableness, conscientiousness, and so on. And each of these five traits has been linked to some kind of genetic underpinning, some type of DNA. And so one of my favorite studies on this, researchers took babies that were in the

• 49:05James Clear?

  nursery, and they played a harsh noise on one side of the nursery, and some of the babies turned toward the noise, and some of them turned away. And as they tracked those children as they grew up throughout life, they found the ones that turned toward the noise were more likely to grow up to be extroverts, and the ones that turned away were more likely to grow up to be introverts.

• 49:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the extroverts are in the mosh pit, and the introverts are at home watching Netflix.

• 49:25James Clear?

  So, again, I think there's still a lot to learn, but there's definitely something going on here. People, for example, who have higher levels of agreeableness, tend to have higher natural levels of oxytocin as well. And so you can imagine how someone who is high in agreeableness might be more likely, or it might be easier for them to build a habit of writing thank you notes, or of organizing social events where people can be warm and hang out and kind and considerate and so on. They're that kind of personality, and so they're maybe predisposed to that kind of habit. Where it gets interesting is if you can understand yourself at a more, I guess I'll even call it genetic level, then maybe you can start to design habits that fit you better or design an environment that fits you better. So, one of the examples I gave in the book, and again, I'm just kinda, I'm still like

• 50:09James Clear?

  toying with some of these ideas, is for people who are low in conscientiousness, which is one of those five traits, that means that they're less likely to be orderly or less likely to be organized. So, if someone is like that, if they're predisposed to be that kind of person, it might really help them to have an environment designed where things are already orderly or primed or set up, because they're gonna be less likely to be the type of person that would just remember to do it, or to make a to-do list to do it, and so on. And so, maybe if you knew, "Oh, I'm low in conscientiousness," you should shift more of your energy and attention to environment design.

• 50:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. That's super interesting. I mean, in the book, you talk about Michael Phelps, who has a physique that's perfectly suited to him swimming very fast, and then you have this-

• 50:54James Clear?

  Hickamille-garouche.

• 50:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, a long-distance runner, who, they have the same inseam, but, you know, the proportionality of their bodies are completely different, and he's well-suited in long-distance running, they could not swap places. And the point being that, from afar, the casual observer will say, "Well, of course he's good at swimming, like, look at his body, I can't do that." But the greater point that you're trying to make is, if we can develop self-awareness around, you know, what suits us best in our predispositions, and gravitate towards those environments and those opportunities, then we're putting ourselves in a position where the expression of our genetic makeup can advance us and fuel us, and, you know, put us in the position that is best for us.

• 51:38Rich Roll?

  In the meantime, you kind of leave people with this question, which is, "What are you well-suited to suffer for?" Right? Something like that, paraphrasing.

• 51:47James Clear?

  I think-

• 51:48Rich Roll?

  Which is a way of kind of prompting that self-inquiry.

• 51:51James Clear?

  A lot of people try to figure out like, yes, so in that chapter, after a set of questions that you can go through to try to figure it out for yourself, what are you most appropriately matched for, what environment would suit you? And one of the key questions, I think, is where's an area where you can handle the pain of the work better than the people around you? The area where you are more well-equipped to suffer is the work that you were made to do, which is an interesting way to think about it, right? Like, most people think about, oh, well, where is it just easy? Where do I succeed? But every area requires hard work and effort to achieve some level of success. So the question is not, where is it easy? The question is, where can I handle the pain?

• 52:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a different lens through which to look at it, but I think that that's right.

• 52:33James Clear?

  For some people, for whatever reason, people who grow up and, you know, become great writers, they, writing is suffering, but they can handle it for some reason. Navy SEALs, like, it's not easy to be one, but the guys who can make it, somehow, they can handle the suffering of it.

• 52:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they're well-suited and prepared and willing to undergo that for some reason.

• 52:54James Clear?

  And I think I use that line, something similar to that at the end of that chapter, which is, at the peak of any field, what you're going to find are people who are both well-suited and well-trained. It's not just one or the other. They have the environment matching, and they have the hard work and the effort and the perseverance.

• 53:10Rich Roll?

  Right. Habits are the compound interest of self-improvement.

• 53:13James Clear?

  I love it. That's one of my favorite lines in the book.

• 53:16Rich Roll?

  It's a great line.

• 53:17James Clear?

  I think it encapsulates the core idea, right? That like, if you're willing to build those small behaviors and layer 1% improvements on top of each other, they will compound and multiply, the same way that money multiplies through compound interests, the effects of your habits multiply as you repeat them over time. And that can be true for you or against you. And that's why it's crucial to understand how habits work, so that you can, you know, make sure that they're multiplying in your favor rather than to your detriment.

• 53:46Rich Roll?

  It is time for me to introduce you to the priestess of self-acceptance, of body positivity and fun, ultra-runner Mirna Valerio. Easily one of the most inspirational athletes I've ever met, Mirna is a true ambassador of sport on a mission to empower humans of all shapes, sizes, colors, and genders to proudly embrace their bodies, expand their horizons, and own their personal truth. In this clip, she demands that we broaden our minds and crush preconceived ideas of what our bodies are capable of.

• 54:22Mirna Valerio?

  When that cardiologist told me that I was gonna die if I didn't change my lifestyle, I really did make a decision to change things. I prioritized my day. I stopped bringing work home, which is really difficult to do when you work in a boarding school. I would get up super early and hop on the treadmill for an hour, and then do Pilates, and then do awful Biggest Loser videos. Really, really awful, but I did them anyway because I needed to change drastically. And so, I mean, and I did. I would work out for five hours a day.

• 54:58Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 54:58Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, I was really committed to changing my life in a very drastic way, so that's what I did.

• 55:04Rich Roll?

  And little, little did you know-

• 55:06Mirna Valerio?

  Who knew?

• 55:07Rich Roll?

  -that this would set in motion this entire new life that you live now, right?

• 55:11Mirna Valerio?

  Who knew?

• 55:12Rich Roll?

  Was there a breakthrough moment? Were you really just embrace this idea that I am a runner? And this is like the path that I'm gonna blaze for myself?

• 55:22Mirna Valerio?

  I don't think there was one moment. I think I just slowly grew into a running persona. And I never, I never really had any qualms about whether or not I was a runner. Like, I ran, therefore I was a runner. But as far as like the really deep running persona and identifying deeply as a runner, I think that just came about organically. And then it was, it's always a surprise to me that people who run don't think they're runners. Because if you run- You use your body for running. It's something you do regularly.

• 55:57Rich Roll?

  You are what you do, right?

• 56:00Mirna Valerio?

  Right.

• 56:00Rich Roll?

  Well, we all measure ourselves up against some idealized version of what that means or is. And the truth is, you know, 99.99% of people that are out running are not, you know, winning marathons and things like that. This is the greatest participation sport.

• 56:18Mirna Valerio?

  You know, as I said, like, I'm just a person who likes to run and I like to exercise. But, on the other hand, I know that there are lots of people who, for whom, like, this thing that I'm doing is, seems to be inaccessible to them. Because they have this idea that a runner looks this way, a runner runs this quickly. A person who hikes is a certain body type, a certain race, probably male. And so, when they see me, it blows their minds that I'm out there doing those same things, unapologetically, and without regard for what people think I should be doing, and where people think I should be doing it.

• 56:57Rich Roll?

  The unapologetic part is a big part of it, too. Like, you always have this huge smile and you're the life of the party on the trail.

• 57:04Mirna Valerio?

  I don't know about the life of the party.

• 57:06Rich Roll?

  Well, there's this sense like, oh, well, you know, I'm here, but I really shouldn't be here, like, the sheepishness that perhaps somebody else who's, you know, trying to make this work would feel in that experience.

• 57:18Mirna Valerio?

  Well, I definitely, when I started trail running, I didn't know what I was doing.

• 57:24Rich Roll?

  Nobody does.

• 57:25Mirna Valerio?

  Right. I still don't know what I'm doing. But, you know, I would just kind of like hang in the back and listen to the race directors and then go off on an adventure, because I always see it as an adventure. And, again, not knowing what I was doing, not knowing what I was in for. But as I became... Used to that and more comfortable with that, like the unknown aspect of trail running and anything that you do in the outdoors. I definitely became more comfortable just being in those spaces. And that's how I operate in any uncomfortable situation. I'll hang in the back and observe, learn things.

• 58:07Mirna Valerio?

  And then as I become more comfortable, I extend myself more and more when I'm in those situations.

• 58:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And are you still doing the, you've got these running retreats, the Slow as Fuck Running Retreats? Did you actually do these?

• 58:22Mirna Valerio?

  I did.

• 58:23Rich Roll?

  Did you?

• 58:24Mirna Valerio?

  I absolutely did.

• 58:25Rich Roll?

  That's like the best name ever for a running retreat.

• 58:27Mirna Valerio?

  They sold out, you know, over and over again.

• 58:29Rich Roll?

  Because it's like, oh, all the fear that people have, like, I can't do a running retreat.

• 58:34Mirna Valerio?

  It immediately tears down a wall.

• 58:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 58:36Mirna Valerio?

  Oh, well, I think I can do that.

• 58:37Rich Roll?

  I'm Slow as Fuck.

• 58:38Mirna Valerio?

  Right, exactly, exactly. And so, and that-

• 58:41Rich Roll?

  What are those about? Where do you do those?

• 58:43Mirna Valerio?

  Okay, so, so yes, they are called Slow as Fuck Trail Running Adventures. And I created them specifically to serve a community that is made up of runners. Some of them are plus-size runners, some of them are not, but everybody's slow. And, and by slow, I mean, we don't run 10-minute miles.

• 59:06Rich Roll?

  What if you're fast and you want to go?

• 59:08Mirna Valerio?

  And I tell people, I said, "This is not for you. This is not the experience for you." Because we're going to be on the trails, we will run, we will walk, we will take selfies, we will have a picnic, it'll be a whole day thing. This is not competitive. You should not consider this as training because we're just gonna-

• 59:27Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 59:28Mirna Valerio?

  We're gonna play by ear and, yes, pick daisies. We're gonna do some sort of reflection work, and we'll have a good time. So, yeah, like-

• 59:37Rich Roll?

  How many people?

• 59:38Mirna Valerio?

  The very first one I did was 22 people, which was a lot of people.

• 59:42Rich Roll?

  And do you just do it in your backyard trails?

• 59:45Mirna Valerio?

  Well, no, I, I rent a house somewhere. And that's near a lot of trails. And yeah, and I bring people in. I contract a lot of people in to do yoga, meditation. To, you know, had Roz Mays, who's a pole dancer, come in and do some sensual movement without a pole. Just so that, and with the goal being that people begin to get more comfortable in their own bodies and in the space that they inhabit. And they transfer that out onto the trails and hopefully in the rest of their lives. And so, so that was fun.

• 1:00:21Mirna Valerio?

  And so, yeah, so that's what we do.

• 1:00:30Rich Roll?

  No mindset deep dive would be complete without a word from my next guest, the irrepressible James Lawrence, AKA The Iron Cowboy. James is a multiple world record crushing endurance athlete whose mind boggling feats include completing 50 Ironman distance triathlons in 50 days in 50 states. And most recently completing an absolutely astonishing 101 Iron Distance Triathlons in 101 consecutive days. In this clip, he explains how he fosters his extraordinary mental conviction.

• 1:01:11Rich Roll?

  Your gift really is that you're able to suffer, but you have figured out a way to express that through these challenges that get incrementally more and more difficult over the years that allow you to kind of be in the place that you're in now. I didn't say that very articulately, but you know what I'm saying? Like, this starts on a Ferris wheel for 10 days. And, you know, it's not like you're out winning triathlons right away or anything like that. Like, you have a very different path into this kind of thing.

• 1:01:39Speaker 10

  I think that is the most beautiful or profound lesson that needs to be heard today. Nobody's the expert at the beginning of their journey. Nobody is. And you have to meet yourself where you're at today and that be the expectation. The hardest thing to do is to start on any journey because that's where the highest amount of struggle is. That's where our experience and our momentum and our success is at its lowest. And a lot of people see the headline, the 100, and think, oh. He's just born to do this kind of thing. And I love saying it now that you can't go from zero to a hundred and miss all of the moments in between. And everybody has a beginning, middle and end to their journey.

• 1:02:24Rich Roll?

  But it's the audacity to start and the courage to, you know, put one foot in front of the other. And I think a lot of people just get caught up in needing to understand how it's going to unfold. And they get paralyzed and never actually move forward.

• 1:02:37Speaker 10

  And two, that was beautifully said, but there, and this is the bad part about social media, is they're comparing themselves against what other people are doing or showing that they're doing. And they say, I can't do that and I'm not good enough. And that's what stops them from starting. And that's tragic to me because thankfully, social media wasn't big when we started and I didn't have basis of comparison. And people are like, oh, who are your mentors? And who's this and that? And who do you look on to? And I was like, I would not compare myself with what the current standard of excellence was. And I would go out and try to do what I believe was possible. And here's the perfect example. At the time, when, when I said I was going to do the 50, the baseline was kind of like the epic five, right?

• 1:03:21Speaker 10

  And had I looked at that and said, oh, the epic five is the standard of excellence at the time, which it was, I would have said, okay, I'm going to double that standard to do 10. So why did I go all the way to 50? Because for me personally, I wasn't comparing myself about what others were doing and accomplishing. I went out and I set the, the standard of the bar to what I thought I could do. And that's where people get into problems and struggles is they are now comparing themselves to what they see the top, top guys doing. And they just get overwhelmed and they, and they don't start. And so there's, there's two sides to that coin, right? Don't get sidelined by what you see people are doing. And then don't look at what other people are doing and do what you believe is possible within yourself. You've got to show up.

• 1:04:07Speaker 10

  You've got to participate. You have to learn and you can't go from zero to a hundred. And I couldn't have done what I did mentally without learning and struggling and developing and sharpening that thing. The big question topic, are you born with it? Or can you develop it?

• 1:04:22Speaker 11

  Nature versus nurture.

• 1:04:23Speaker 10

  Nature versus nurture.

• 1:04:24Speaker 11

  The eternal debate, right?

• 1:04:25Speaker 10

  And my answer, just based on my personal experiences, it's nurture. You have to develop it. You have to work on it. Now, we're all born with a different baseline. Jace would be a great example. He obviously has a different starting baseline for mental toughness than some other people do. Now, if he took-

• 1:04:45Rich Roll?

  And you're the kid who was on the Ferris wheel for 10 days to win a prize.

• 1:04:49Speaker 10

  Right, exactly.

• 1:04:50Rich Roll?

  So your baseline is probably a little bit different.

• 1:04:51Speaker 10

  Baseline is probably a little bit different.

• 1:04:52Speaker 11

  Like, how old are you for that? 22?

• 1:04:54Speaker 10

  21, 22. But I took that knowledge from that experience and then I've really showed up in my life and sharpened it. Jace has an incredible opportunity to be something very special in that mindset space. And I come across, you can pick out, okay, baseline's higher, baseline's higher, baseline's higher, develop that talent. But everybody can develop it because I'm a great example of this is a mental journey. I'm not the most physically gifted. Now, you have to, the other big question is like, how much is physical and how much is mental for what we do or the journey that we're on? And my answer has changed over the years. And you hear a lot of people have different opinions.

• 1:05:32Speaker 10

  It's like 70% mental and it's 100% physical and it's 100% mental. You cannot do what I did if I'm very strong mentally and I'm a 300-pound man. Mentally, you cannot drag your body through that experience. And if you're extremely physical but have a weak mind, I've seen so many athletes that are way more talented than I am fail because they don't have the mental component of it. And so you straight up have to be a hundred percent on both of them in order to accomplish something like that, or the journey, or push your boundaries or your limits, right? It's a combination.

• 1:06:15Speaker 10

  You cannot rely solely on one or the other and allow that to be to get you through. You have to be so strong at both of them, or it just doesn't work.

• 1:06:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's really a habit or a muscle, this idea of reflexively putting yourself into positions where you're going to be tested mentally, emotionally, physically, in all of these ways. And we're in a culture right now where it's kind of easy to opt out of that type of situation. So you have to almost have a little bit of extra gumption to like seek it out and put yourself in that situation.

• 1:06:50Speaker 10

  Sunny always says, and she is not lying when she says it, she says, if I have two paths in front of me, I'm going to intentionally pick the harder one because I want to struggle, I want to learn, I want to grow. And that's exact opposite of what most people are doing today. They see two things and go, that's the easy route, I'm going to take that one.

• 1:07:07Rich Roll?

  You're deluded into thinking that the happy life is the easy life, but the happy life, the fulfilled life, the purpose-driven life is the life that invites those sort of difficult situations into your experience.

• 1:07:18Speaker 11

  When they're depressed and they have anxiety, you know, it seems, I'm like, I'm sure you do, because you're just taking that easy mountain bike path that's just soft dirt and all you do is, you know, there's no challenge, there's no reason to develop any character, but they're choosing that, right? So it's like, well, I'm sure you feel depressed, like you're accomplishing nothing hard. So that's definitely what our culture and our society encourages.

• 1:07:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:43Speaker 11

  It's the easy path.

• 1:07:44Speaker 10

  One of the biggest things you learn by taking the harder path is problem solving. And that's what our team and Sunny has become experts at is problem solving. That's all, that's all we do. We've become master problem solvers and we've learned how to problem solve in the face of adversity. And when you take that path of least resistance, there's very limited opportunities or necessity to problem solve. And so you don't learn that skillset. And life is about managing adversity and learning how to problem solve at a high level.

• 1:08:16Rich Roll?

  The way we navigate our inner world, our everyday thoughts, our emotions, and the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves is the single most important determinant of our life's success. In other words, emotional agility, or the ability to confront difficult emotions, gain critical self-insight from our feelings, and ultimately use this newfound awareness to adaptively align our actions with our values, is how we make changes to bring out the best of ourselves moving forward. This is the life's work of award-winning psychologist on faculty at Harvard Medical School, Susan David, Ph.D.

• 1:08:58Rich Roll?

  Because the tough emotions are the price we pay for a meaningful life, here's some evidence-based wisdom on what it takes to hone that emotional agility.

• 1:09:12Susan David?

  So my work really traverses emotions, so both the physical sensations and the physiological sensations, and also the feelings. So when we then construct something that says, "I am sad because of something," the feeling, the thought that we might have, self-doubts, and the stories. So my work traverses this whole idea that our inner world, our thoughts, our emotions, and our stories often drive every aspect of how we love, how we live, how we parent, and how we lead. And yet, so much of the writing that exists on success is effectively writing that's

• 1:09:52Susan David?

  either about set goals and achieve them, or about the landscape of what success looks like. But there's very little that focuses, I think, in an evidence-based way, not to say that there isn't any, but in an evidence-based and research-based way about what it takes internally in the way we deal with our thoughts, our emotions, and our stories.

• 1:10:11Rich Roll?

  Right. And... I think that begins with really understanding that as these emotions well up inside of us, as they do, that they are part and parcel of what it means to be human. They're entirely natural. And the starting point is really to discern the fact that you have a choice when they arise as to how you behave, that you don't need to necessarily self-identify with them to the extent that they become that predictor of behavior that leads you astray.

• 1:10:39Susan David?

  Absolutely. Yes, so the first point that you make, which is that they're naturally occurring experiences in us as human beings, is one of the first things that I explore in both my TED Talk and the book, which is that as a society, what has started to happen is that these naturally occurring experiences that really are incredibly important signals to ourselves in terms of how we're doing, what's working for us in our lives, what's missing in our lives. What's started to happen is that emotions either feel dirty, that they're seen as being disruptive, feminine, irrational, illogical, or what happens is we receive this narrative from society that says to us that there are good emotions and bad emotions.

• 1:11:24Susan David?

  The good emotions are the joy and the happiness, and you should chase happiness, and the bad emotions are anger, grief, sadness. And so one of the most critical aspects, I think, of my work is starting to really challenge this idea that they're good or bad emotions.

• 1:11:42Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:11:42Susan David?

  And to really put out that our emotions have evolved in us as a human species to help us to respond and survive. And when we start getting into the space where we either block or suppress or push aside emotions, we actually stop ourselves from being our most effective, successful beings.

• 1:12:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this idea that there's a duality is a socially projected notion.

• 1:12:09Susan David?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:11Rich Roll?

  Perpetuates that vicious cycle of unhealth, I guess. Because if you feel sad and then you know like, well, that's a bad emotion, then you're going to then feel shame or guilt for having that. And you're just digging that hole even deeper and deeper.

• 1:12:26Susan David?

  Yeah, that's exactly. So it's this fascinating thing where, you know, we have in psychology, we sometimes talk about type one and type two. And type one is where you start saying, I feel sad. And type two is when you start having an emotion or judgment about the emotion. So you say, I'm sad that I'm sad. I shouldn't be sad. I push it aside. And in some of my work, I, for example, did a survey of 70,000 people. And I found that a third of us, which is a remarkable number, a third of us treat our normal emotions, emotions like sadness or anger, or even grief as being bad. And so we push them aside. Or if we don't do it to ourselves, we often do it to people we love, our children. We jump to solution.

• 1:13:10Susan David?

  And I think a critical aspect of well being is moving beyond the struggle with our emotions into the other space, which is this is how I'm feeling. What do I need to do about this context that I'm in?

• 1:13:28Rich Roll?

  Right, to detach from the self judgment that usually is accompanying that.

• 1:13:33Susan David?

  Yeah, the radical acceptance of all of our emotions, our grief, our sadness, our anger is a hallmark and a cornerstone of resilience and a cornerstone of effective relationships. That's not to say that because we feel angry, we have a right to be angry and we should act on our anger, or because we feel wronged, we have been wronged. But rather, what's at the core of my work is this idea that our emotions contain signposts to things that we care about. They're these flashing lights. You know, if I feel guilty as a parent, it doesn't mean that I should be guilty. But it does mean that there's a value often that sits beneath that emotion,

• 1:14:18Susan David?

  that I value presence and connectedness with my children, and that I'm not feeling enough of it. I'm not experiencing enough of it. So instead of judging the emotion, if we can rather be open-hearted and accepting and compassionate of it, we can start moving into the space where we are able to discern values that are underneath it.

• 1:14:40Rich Roll?

  Right, I like the idea that the emotion really sheds light on the extent to which you're invested in that value. So that guilt reaction really just reaffirms to you that that impulse to be a good parent is valuable to you, right? And that's almost, that's an affirming way to perceive what you would ordinarily, you know, feel lousy about.

• 1:15:02Susan David?

  So, you know, again, in the book, what I do is I talk about these four movements. I talk about showing up, which is noticing your thoughts and your emotions in compassionate ways. Stepping out, which is creating the space. Walking your why, which is this, how do we make values align choices? And then moving on. This is this tiny tweaks, as well as this tita tata principle. So the idea behind this is that often when in life, whether it's in relationships or at work, we develop strong levels of over competence. So the idea here is that you can do your job with your eyes closed or you know what to expect. And this doesn't mean you aren't busy. You might be very busy doing something in a rote way. And when we over competent,

• 1:15:43Susan David?

  it's a very strong risk factor for just feelings of disengagement and ultimately a sense of disempowerment. So over competence is very difficult for us. But by the same token, human beings like comfort and we rarely struggle with the opposite, which is over challenge. Over challenge in a job is where you keep feeling like you're being thrown in the deep end. You never know what's going on, the goals keep on changing. It's again, a very strong risk factor for disengagement. And so the sweet spot of growth in our lives is where we're neither over competent nor over challenged. So what we're doing is we are working at the edge of our ability. So keeping on again, pushing the boundary.

• 1:16:29Susan David?

  Not just for the sake of it, again, in a values-aligned way. You can take that same idea and you can apply it in relationships. Were you in a relationship where you go out with your spouse? You go to a movie. You know what the person's opinion is of the movie. You know what they're going to order at dinner. You know what you're going to talk about at dinner. You're over competent in that relationship and it's a risk factor for that relationship. You also don't want to be over challenged where you're walking on eggshells. So what do we do when we are trying to work at the edge of our ability? Usually what we're trying to do is we're trying to either expand breadth or depth. Breath might be we're trying new things. We're moving into environments that are maybe new.

• 1:17:13Susan David?

  We may be, instead of going out with the same group of friends with our spouse every week or the same movie, we're trying different things. So that's breath. Depth is where you start going deeper, where you start developing greater levels of expertise or with your spouse, you start having conversations that you might not have had for the past 20 years. You know, when you actually ask the person what their dreams were or what their fears were or... So depth and breadth are usually ways that we start expanding the edge and moving at the edge of our ability. And it's in that zone that we have our greatest levels of growth. And yes, discomfort, but discomfort is, again, the price of admission to a meaningful life.

• 1:17:54Rich Roll?

  Right. And I think in the book you use the example of the gymnast on the, walking on the beam, right? And as that person loses their balance, it's their core strength, AKA their emotional agility that allows them to then stabilize themselves once again. Yeah, and it's sort of like I had the climber Alex Honnold in here. You know, who's just brilliant what he does. And it's so extraordinary what he's able to do.

• 1:18:23Rich Roll?

  And I think it really is a testament in many ways to this principle because he doesn't just up and climb El Cap without ropes, you know, out of the blue. He's been doing this his whole life. And, you know, it's just, okay, one wall, a little bit more challenging than the last one. In the same way, you know, Laird Hamilton can surf this gigantic wave. It doesn't happen overnight. He doesn't go from a six foot wave to a 20 foot wave. He goes from a six foot wave to a six and a half foot wave, right? Taking these incremental little steps to push that envelope of comfort or discomfort, just the tiniest amount until there's an acclimation and then you're ready for the next challenge.

• 1:19:00Susan David?

  Yeah. And it's a dishonor to human imperfections to sell the narrative that it's simply something that happens in one fell swoop, that, you know, just happens.

• 1:19:12Rich Roll?

  Right. And that is the narrative. That's what we read. We read it and we love that hero's story and we believe that that's how it occurred because we want these people to be bigger than life. But they're all humans, just like we are, you know? The penultimate guest in our deep dive is entrepreneur, author, innovator, and philanthropist, Peter Diamandis. Recently named by Fortune as one of the world's 50 greatest leaders, Peter is the founder and executive chairman of the XPRIZE Foundation, which leads the world in designing and operating large scale incentive competitions. On the show to discuss longevity and to promote his new book, Life Force, co-written with Tony Robbins, by the

• 1:19:54Rich Roll?

  way, Peter ended our interview, the full version of which we have yet to share, so consider this a tease, with an unexpected monologue on mindset that was so helpful and insightful, we felt compelled to include it here. So here is Peter Diamandis.

• 1:20:15Peter Diamandis?

  I think mindset is the single most important thing that anyone can take out of this conversation today, in addition to health. I got religion on mindset over the course of the last decade, and I've made it the focus. So I mentor thousands of entrepreneurs through an Abundance Digital, and I run a CEO executive program year-round called Abundance 360, which is part of Singularity University. And I've focused the entire programmer on mindset. And there are four mindsets that I focus on: an abundance mindset, an exponential mindset, a moonshot mindset, and a longevity mindset. There's gratitude mindsets and curiosity mindsets. We'll come back to the primers.

• 1:20:56Peter Diamandis?

  If I were to ask you, what made Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Mahatma Gandhi, whoever it might be, successful? Was it the money they had? Was it the relationships they had? Was it the tech they had? Or was it their mindset? I would posit that mindset is the most important out of those things. If you took away everything from them, but they maintained their mindset, they would regain some portion of it. And so if that's true, if mindset is that important, then where are we proactively developing and honing our mindsets? Because most of us, including me, until this last decade, have been getting our mindsets

• 1:21:37Peter Diamandis?

  from our parents, our schools, God forbid, the stuff we watch on TV, instead of proactively honing it. So if you don't mind, let me hit on those four mindsets. Absolutely. So abundance mindset is something I got out of Singularity University, and it got me to write my first book, Abundance: The Future is Better Than You Think. And it was the realization that, oh my God, we are moving from scarcity, which is we're genetically dialed into scarcity. We have in our brains, in our genome, we have a scarcity mindset because it was where we evolved. But technology is a force that turns whatever used to be scarce into abundance,

• 1:22:21Peter Diamandis?

  over and over and over again. Case in point, we used to go and kill whales to get whale oil to light our nights, right? Then we ravaged mountainsides for coal, then we drilled kilometers in the ocean floor. And now photovoltaics, we talked about fusion, there's a squanderable abundance of energy coming. So tech moved it from scarcity to abundance. We have more capital, year on year on year, than any time ever. So we're going to hit a hundred trillion dollars in our global economy this year. We've hit the most number of unicorns ever. The amount of venture capital invested in 2017 beat 2016, 2018 beat 2017, even on and on and on, even through the pandemic. This 2021, we doubled the amount of venture

• 1:23:02Peter Diamandis?

  capital than in 2020, which doubled 2019. Okay, let's go on. This past year, what would you think of as more scarce than a perfect diamond, a four-carat, five-carat, 10-carat diamond, right? Pandora, the largest jeweler on the planet, this past year, said we're going to stop selling conflict diamonds or mined diamonds that have social issues, and we're only going to produce manufactured diamonds. And so, all of a sudden, diamonds went from being scarce to perfect diamonds, eight, 10, 20-carat diamonds, becoming abundant. It's the cost of electricity, methane, and water. And a friend of mine at a company called The Diamond Foundry manufactures whatever gem you want. Do you want flaws and perfections?

• 1:23:46Peter Diamandis?

  You can do that. And so, this is an abundance mindset, which I'll cap that one off in the following way. If you've got a pie, and all of a sudden, twice as many people show up for dinner, in a scarcity mindset, you're like, ah, damn, I gotta slice the slices thinner and thinner and thinner. In an abundance mindset, it's bullshit, we're going to bake more pies, right? That's an abundance mindset. Every year is giving us more and more opportunities, which has been fundamentally the case. Your competition, forget about them. There's more opportunities. Let's go and go in that direction. An exponential mindset is just the notion that we're linear thinkers. You know, take 30 linear steps, you're 30 meters away.

• 1:24:28Peter Diamandis?

  But our tech world is growing exponentially, 30 doublings, 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32. And 30 doublings, you're a billion meters away. You've gone around the planet 26 times. And so in an exponential mindset, it's important to be able to see where the technologies are going and how they're converging. And so at A360, that I work people through the abundance mindset, give the examples of increasing abundance across almost every single area, exponential mindsets and what the implications are. A moonshot mindset is the notion that most of the world would love 10%. Would really love a 10% improvement in revenues, 10% more customers.

• 1:25:13Peter Diamandis?

  And that's a great stretch goal. In a moonshot mindset, you're saying, no, no, no. I don't want 10%. I want to go 10 times bigger, 1,000% bigger. And when you do that, you've got to let go of all your preconceived notions. The Astro Teller, who's the captain of moonshots at Alphabet, a brilliant guy, a friend who I care about greatly, gives an example that says, if you're a car company and your car is doing 50 miles per gallon and you want to get to 55, you can do that. You can lightweight the car, get better aerodynamics. But if you want to go from 50 to 500, you've got to start with a clean sheet of paper and reinvent the car.

• 1:25:54Peter Diamandis?

  And so the ability to take these moonshots are here because of these exponential technologies. And when I'm teaching the CEOs that I coach, it's like you want to keep 95% of your company doing 10%. They're generating the engine, right, that keeps you alive. And you don't want them taking moonshots. But you want to find that small team, that moonshot team, and take them away from the main company. And you want to say to them, listen, I don't want you taking 10%. If I see you doing 10% activities, you're fired. I want you trying crazy ideas that have the potential to reinvent our business, right?

• 1:26:37Peter Diamandis?

  The day before something is really a breakthrough, it's a crazy idea. And most companies aren't trying crazy ideas, and then they're stuck in incrementalism.

• 1:26:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the idea of creating a skunkworks.

• 1:26:47Peter Diamandis?

  Yes, it's a skunkworks.

• 1:26:48Rich Roll?

  Because every company, when it reaches a certain scale, falls prey to its own bureaucracy and, you know, soon becomes a dinosaur short of having that level of innovation within.

• 1:27:00Peter Diamandis?

  Absolutely. There are very few 100-year-old companies. Yeah. The final mindset that I'm enamored with, and it's what gave birth to this book, Life Force, to bring it back, is the longevity mindset. And, you know, if you can will yourself to death, and you can will yourself to live longer, if you have something to live for, and if you believe you have the ability to live out of pain and have the cognition, the aesthetics, the mobility. And so, a longevity mindset for me is helping people see where this field is going. One of the things I did, Rich, was I built over the last year an AI engine that searches

• 1:27:44Peter Diamandis?

  the global news, journals, tweets, magazines, newspapers, and it finds longevity and health tech breakthroughs. And it scans it for any dystopian, and it rates it on a quality article, and I get a digest every day, it uses GPT-3, it uses the OpenAI engine, to give me a summary paragraph about 15 different breakthroughs per day.

• 1:28:09Peter Diamandis?

  And so it's my longevity mindset. I'm seeing what's going on in all of these different fields. And I have zero question about reaching longevity escape velocity. And you can try it, as can everyone else. It's free. It's longevityinsider.org. And at the end of the day, I get this news that gives me tremendous hope. And because of that, I'm willing to change my diet, sleep longer, do intermittent fasting.

• 1:28:40Rich Roll?

  Right. We're the last generation, right, who are like butting right up against the edge of whether we're making it across the transom or not.

• 1:28:48Peter Diamandis?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:49Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:28:52Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, here we are. It's the final clip. I cannot think of a better way to close this deep dive out, other than with some mindset insights from the poet of endurance himself, Mr. Tommy Rivers-Pusey. In the summer of 2020, Tommy, who's a highly credentialed elite marathoner and ultra marathoner, who is beloved for his soulful approach to athletics, to life and to family, fell gravely ill with an extremely rare and advanced form of lung cancer that very nearly killed him and most likely would have killed anyone else. But Rives refused pity. Instead, he doubled down on gratitude. He chose to

• 1:29:34Rich Roll?

  learn from his suffering, to expand his capacity to love and, more than anything, see the pain he endured as a teacher. Here's a slice of one of the most memorable conversations in the history of this podcast.

• 1:29:54Tommy Rivs?

  It's difficult to find the right words to express that kind of gratitude. And not just to the, you know, the team that accepted me and was willing to work with me, but also with just the outpouring of support, you know, and love from, gosh, from so many people.

• 1:30:10Rich Roll?

  Oh, I mean, I don't know what your awareness is because, you know, you were where you were, but the outpouring of love and the support online and the community that, you know, congealed around supporting you was unbelievable, man. It was, it was really a beautiful thing and I'm sure you know that, but if you don't know that, you need to know that, like, people love you, man. And that's a reflection of the way that you've lived your life, you know, and to the extent that, you know, your experience has created a referendum on how you want to live and how you want to be and improvements you can make, you need to understand that you have lived your life in such a way that, you know, people are going to the ends of the earth to try to find ways to support you and your family.

• 1:30:55Tommy Rivs?

  Yeah, it's, man, people are good. It's, um, all we hear is the negative. All we see is the scandals, you know, the times that people mess up and the, um, just this obsession we have with finding fault. And that it, it fosters this, this mindset as though, um, humans are just these fallible, wretched, cynical creatures. And, and that's one, that's one aspect of humanity. But our ability to, to do good, to impact the lives of people around us,

• 1:31:39Tommy Rivs?

  to, to help make things better, um, for other people around us, it's infinite, that capacity, that ability. I, I think about, um,

• 1:31:50Tommy Rivs?

  Think about humanity. We talk about humanity all the time. Well, we did, growing up at least, in my home. My mom was an artist, my dad, his graduate degrees were in humanities and religion. That's fascinating. I didn't know that, but I'm like, of course. But growing up, you know, we studied the masters, you know, of the humanities. They were the artists, they were the writers. And that word became synonymous with like masters of the arts. They were great writers or painters or sculptors. When we think about Michelangelo or Bernini, or we think about these individuals that had this ability to capture human emotion, human experience. That's why we call it the humanities, not because, you know, it's not synonymous with artists.

• 1:32:35Tommy Rivs?

  It's that they have the ability to capture the essence of humanity, you know? Not just have the ability to paint or to be a sculptor, but to actually capture a feeling. This universal human experience. And there's this massive, I think about this massive spectrum of humanity. And on one end is the weak, miserable, wretched aspects of humanity. But then on the other side of that spectrum is our potential for good, you know? And we are masters at picking up the broken pieces and recreating and repairing.

• 1:33:18Tommy Rivs?

  And we're masters of redemption. I mean, we really are. And we're also masters at deflecting the fact that we have that capacity. We put it on something else or someone else, always. We look at these incredible achievements that humans have accomplished and our first reaction is, oh, it must be extraterrestrials. It must be something else, you know? Right. We couldn't have possibly achieved this. Exactly. Because if we recognize our capacity as human beings, then we also... Well, if we recognize the achievements of a previous civilization or somebody else.

• 1:34:01Tommy Rivs?

  And if we don't attribute it to, oh, divine intervention or...

• 1:34:10Tommy Rivs?

  Or some unseen force that actually accomplished it, then it condemns us as human beings. Then we have to acknowledge the fact that, well, we maybe aren't reaching our potential as human beings. And so, we're so quick to give something else the credit, which is great. I mean, there's, there's obviously, it's important to have humility.

• 1:34:35Rich Roll?

  Right. But to, but to face that is to reckon with our innate power. And if we're living our life frivolously, we don't want to look at that.

• 1:34:43Tommy Rivs?

  Exactly. Yeah. But when we realize, you know, our life is ours to choose essentially. I mean, if there's something that we want to accomplish, there's work involved, there's personal responsibility that we have to take and we have to actually do that. But it is within our capacity. It is, it is within our ability. And gosh, to, to be able to, to see that potential that we have as human beings and to realize that that redemptive capacity that exists within each of us is a human characteristic, you know, to realize that not just the flawed, broken aspects of our humanity, but our potential.

• 1:35:28Rich Roll?

  Thanks for taking this ride with me today. I think the question I really want to leave you with is, what is your potential? And can you ever really know it without the proper mindset? And I think it goes without saying that mindset has played a pivotal role in my life from my days as an elite level competitive swimmer to piecing my life back together after a bout with alcoholism that nearly took my life, then overhauling my entire lifestyle at 40 and reinventing my life several times over, over the years, from lawyer to ultra endurance athlete, to author, podcaster, public speaker.

• 1:36:07Rich Roll?

  All of the mindset principles, tactics, and tools shared in this masterclass were and continue to be absolutely essential to my growth and success, and of course, to the growth and success of the many guests featured today. And as sobering a thought as that is for me, I share it in hopes that you would see my story, all of these stories, not as unattainable nor as outliers, but rather as fuel to inspire your own possibility for positive personal transformation. In a masterclass like this, questions should arise. Has your mindset been your ally, or has it been your nemesis? What dreams have

• 1:36:51Rich Roll?

  you been putting off? What small actions can you take today to get one step closer to your goals? I hope you not only enjoyed today's deep dive into mindset, but found it helpful, found it inspiring, as well as activating. So, let's get out there. Let's begin plying these mindset tools to challenge the outer edges of our capabilities, to celebrate our collective progress, and of course, support each other's growth along the way. And with that, if you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and

• 1:37:32Rich Roll?

  leave a review and/or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Kale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg and Grayson

• 1:38:14Rich Roll?

  Wilder. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Jessica Miranda, Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and A.J. Akpodiate.

• 1:38:24Rich Roll?

  Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.