Your Body Is Already Talking. Here's What It's Saying | Linda Clemons

Before you ever say a word, you've already told the room everything it needs to know. Your posture, your eye contact, the angle of your body, the openness of your chest — all of it is speaking. And most of us have no idea what it's saying. Linda Clemons is a world-renowned body language and nonverbal communication expert who has spent more than three decades training Fortune 500 CEOs, sales teams, celebrities, and media leaders to master the silent signals that build trust, command respect, and create connection. Her bestselling book Hush: How to Radiate Power and Confidence Without Saying a Word https://amzn.to/4oE0iee is a practical guide to the conversation your body is having without you. We explore why 93% of communication is nonverbal and what that actually means in practice, the four power zones of the body and why keeping them open changes everything from a job interview to a conversation with your teenager, how our biases show up in our bodies before they ever come out of our mouths, the three patterns that derail us in high-stakes moments — frozen, flooding, and flat — and how to move through them, and why the question that changes everything is not what do I want to say but how do I want this person to feel when they leave? A deeply practical, energizing conversation for anyone who wants to show up more powerfully, more warmly, and more authentically in every interaction that matters. You can find Linda at: Website https://lindaclemons.com/ | LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/thelindaclemons/ | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/body-language-nonverbal-communication-power-zones-linda-clemons If you LOVED this episode: You’ll also love our conversation with Julia Minson about how to disagree better so you can have less drama and more impact in your life, your work, and your community. Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the Wheel https://jonathanfields.substack.com/aboutVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jonathan Fields?

  So here's something that might change the way you think about nearly every conversation you have today. According to my guest, research says 93% of what you communicate to another person has nothing to do with the words coming out of your mouth. It's about posture. It's about your eye contact, the way your arms are positioned, whether your body is open or closed, the direction your feet are pointed, even the micro-expressions flickering across your face in fractions of a second. All of it is telling a story. And most of us never once stop to ask what story our body is telling. My guest today, Lynda Clemens, has spent more than 30 years as one of the world's leading experts in body language and nonverbal communication.

• 0:42Jonathan Fields?

  She's trained Fortune 500 CEOs, elite sales teams, celebrities, leaders across industries to master the silent signals that build trust, create connection, and command a room without ever saying a word. Her bestselling book is called Hush. And in this conversation, we go deep into what she calls the four power zones of the body and why keeping them open or closed changes everything. From a high-stakes interview to a conversation with your kid, we talk about how our biases show up in our bodies before they ever reach our mouths. And she tells a story about a manager who unknowingly convicted the wrong person using nothing but his posture. We get into the three patterns that hijack us in pressure moments: frozen, flooding, and flat.

• 1:27Jonathan Fields?

  And we explore the question that Lynda says changes everything. Not what do I want to say, but how do I want this person to feel when they leave my presence? This one is really practical and warm and immediately useful. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 3:27Jonathan Fields?

  I'm deeply fascinated by how we show up, by how we communicate, by how we don't communicate.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:34Jonathan Fields?

  And even more so by how we transmit things to each other without ever actually thinking that we're doing that. You share that before we even open our mouths, our bodies are already telling a story about us when we walk into a room or into a conversation. Take me into this idea more.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  Absolutely. So first of all, Jonathan and Ken, thank you for having me on your show. What's so important, if we think about this, our nonverbal communication is primitive. It existed before we were able to speak a word. And so just imagine, it's the thing that protects you, that's a part of your limbic system. When, from 2,000 or more years, when you would meet someone, the first thing you would do, you would scan their body. You would scan the body to determine if they are a friend, a foe, if you're, or perhaps... A feast, you know what I'm saying? And that's what we do, but but the body is speaking before you even say a word.

• 4:39Speaker 03

  So, for example, you and I could communicate if someone walks in the room. And perhaps someone that looks a little odd or strange or or someone we least expect. And we may look at each other and do an eyebrow flash like, hmm, wonder who that is without saying a word. So, again, even when you were a little baby, you couldn't form words, you made sounds and gestures. So that's how important our nonverbal is. And I have one of my quotes that I love, it's by Emerson. And it goes like this, I cannot hear what you're saying because who you are being is getting in the way. Wow, I cannot hear what you're saying because who you're being, your actions.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  And you've heard the phrase, action speaks louder than words. And if my late granny was alive, she'd say, baby, I hear you talking, but I don't see you walking. So it is so important, there's a conversation that just standing there, just looking around, whether we say anything or not, that's speaking louder than your words.

• 5:46Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense. And it's it's as you were describing that I was also wondering, well, where does this come from? But you kind of spoke to that. I guess there's probably no real way for us to answer where does this come from? But it would make sense that there's a survival mechanism at play here. Like, we need to be able to actually read. You know, if we if we saw somebody coming and it was 100 yards away or a group of people coming, and we couldn't actually communicate with them, maybe we didn't share a language. But there was probably, there was a reason for us to understand, as you were sharing earlier, friend or foe. You know, so there's a survival mechanism that that I would imagine has given us this curiosity and ability to start to try and figure out what is being communicated long before words come out of somebody's mouth.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And just think about couples who've been together for a while. They, they can be in sync with each other without saying a word. A wife can know if something's going on with their husband. A husband can know what's going on with the wife. The mother can just scan her children and know if something is happening. So it's so important that we stay in tune to this because if you are a leader, if you're a parent, a friend, or you're working with a coworker, or, or someone that you want to communicate better with, be prepared to be observant.

• 7:11Speaker 03

  When I say observant, one of the keys that I love is being a hundred percent present in their presence. So you could see those facial muscles, those forty-three facial muscles that react. You could see if I said something to perhaps offend you, and then you jerked back, thus you were taken aback. All of these things, without you saying a word, are sending signals, and it allows us to know if we are building rapport, if we are attracting people, or you could become a people magnet, or if you are, wow, repelling people because of your behavior, and you're nonverbal.

• 7:54Speaker 03

  If your power zones are not open, and we'll talk about that a little bit later, all of this makes a difference. And see, the smile is the universal language.

• 8:05Jonathan Fields?

  I think a lot of us will probably say, okay, I could see how this would really benefit us to both be able to lead with nonverbal language in a way where we want to communicate something that is in some way beneficial to us or to others. But you also mentioned something else, which I'm really curious about, which is The way that we we step into an interaction nonverbally with our body, with our movement, with our energy, can also hurt us. Like, there can be a downside. What are some of the ways that you see the risks, the hazards, the harms that you see potentially being caused by not understanding how this mechanism works and maybe stepping it into a conversation in a way where we're literally creating a dynamic that we really wish we weren't?

• 8:49Speaker 03

  Well, let me give you a good example. I never forget, I was working with a company and working with their leaders on the, I do a workshop titled The Silent Language of Leaders, and working with the managers and the leaders in how they manage, promote, review, and be able to develop their employees. Well, there was a situation where there was discrepancy going on in the office about a particular issue, and the manager brought in the two individuals. Now, he did it individually, but this what? Now, the first individual, by the way, full transparency, was someone he had recommended for the job, so someone he fully sponsored.

• 9:34Speaker 03

  So, watch this. When this particular individual came in, he did this, Jonathan did this. Okay, tell me what was going on. I want you all to look at my hands. Okay, tell me what was going on. I want you to watch my upper carriage. Tell me what's going on. His upper carriage was like pulling. I'm trying to pull for you. I'm leaning in for you. Tell me the truth. I'm there for you. So, he was totally open. And by the way, the young man just sat there. Oh, here's what happened, et cetera, et cetera. No emotion, just real steel. But yet, at the same time, this guy was pulling for him. So, tell me what happened. You didn't do this?

• 10:18Speaker 03

  He wanted him to be innocent. The second guy that was involved, that walked in...

• 10:26Speaker 03

  The manager inherited him, inherited him from another team. And he really didn't want him. He really didn't. He just got, you know, it wasn't someone that he had an opportunity to choose. The guy just transferred to that team. Someone put it there, put him there. And guess what? This is how the manager was approaching him. Watch. Even though the physical door was open to the office.

• 10:54Speaker 03

  He closed the door to his heart.

• 10:57Jonathan Fields?

  So for those who are just listening also, by the way, you're, you're kind of leaning back now with your arms crossed over your chest. Yeah.

• 11:04Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. So leaning back, arms crossed. Listen up, arms crossed. And he extended one arm out and says, okay. But which, for those that are listening, I am doing my okay with my hand. But, but the back of my hand is swinging forward and one arm still folded. Okay. So I'm just going to use a name to protect the innocent and the guilty. Okay, Harry, give me your version. Palm wasn't exposed, arms still half folded. Give me your version. And he folded his arm back. So the poor guy is thinking, wow.

• 11:41Speaker 03

  He's already accused me as being guilty and I haven't even said a word. He, and, and he, and he did this based on the manager's body language because he wasn't open. We don't realize that the moment that we cast judgment in our mind, it shows up in the matter.

• 12:02Jonathan Fields?

  So we're, so we can walk into an interaction with some biases predisposed to a point of view. Or about an idea, about a situation, a person, a group of people. And we think that we're kind of showing up fairly neutral. Like I haven't opened an mouth, I haven't said anything yet. But what you're saying is without us even realizing it, we're walking into that interaction physically and energetically.

• 12:28Jonathan Fields?

  In a way that is going to probably both reveal what our bias is in a good or a bad way, and also change the nature of what's about to unfold, potentially in a harmful way.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And I'm sitting here in the office observing both scenarios. And the second guy, you know what? He came in, he was sitting at the edge of the seat. It's called seat ready, you know, where you're excited and you're trying to plead your innocence and your side of the story. But the moment that he saw the manager's posture and body language, his shoulders, which were straight up, became sunken in because he gave up at that moment. He gave up. He gave up. What if you didn't want me in the first place?

• 13:23Speaker 03

  So look at the stories that are created internally without us even saying a word. That's how powerful you're not. You can have someone walk into the office like, whoa, look at this fella, look at this woman, look at this guy, look at this girl. She walks or he walks like they own the place. Your posture, the way you walk, the way you hold your shoulders, your head, is it level head? Or is it sunken down? All makes a difference. And man, that conversation, and I pull that manager to the side and said, I could tell

• 14:01Speaker 03

  you which one that you were for. And by the way, the guy that he sponsored was the one that was guilty. But his biases, and this is so important, when you have a bias, there's something called RAS.

• 14:20Speaker 03

  R A S, Reticulating Activating System. Your brain can be lazy sometimes. So whatever you think, the brain is going to find evidence to validate it. So if you're thinking, well, look at that young lady, look at that, oh, the way they're dressed. They don't ever wake, and they could be a genius. And then next thing you know, your brain says, well, look at the shoes. Well, look at this, look at what they're eating, the way they handle utensils. Your brain will validate whatever you're seeking. Be careful what you think about, because it could come about.

• 14:56Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and, and what you're saying is it also, it's going to show up in your body, potentially even before it ever comes out of your mouth. You just described a work scenario, which I think probably so many of us have had some version of that, and maybe even been on the side of the manager without realizing what we were doing. Like, we were the ones who were actually showing up in a way where in hindsight, we're like, oh, wow, that actually wasn't okay. But this is going to show up in our relationships every day also, isn't it? This is going to show up in our, if you're a parent, it's probably going to show up in your relationship with your, a co-parent, or a kid, or a neighbor, or a friend. So this isn't just about work. This is about literally every interaction we have with people who are close and not so close with us.

• 15:37Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And you know, one of the things that I encourage all of you to think about,

• 15:44Speaker 03

  how do you want people to leave? Once they're in your presence, how do you want them to leave? Do you want them to leave better or bitter? Do you want them to leave transformed or elevated? You could do that simply with your words, your tone, and how you show up, how you open the door to your heart. And when I say power zones, the heart area is a major power zone. Are you always folded arms? And some of you are probably thinking, well, that's who I am. Everybody that knows me knows that I fold my arms. But what if I don't know you? What if I don't know your baseline?

• 16:30Speaker 03

  How do I know that's your norm? So having that awareness is critical. And one of the things that I always say to myself, you know, when I meet someone or someone that I counter, that the moment they're in my presence, how do I want, how do I want them to leave my presence? It's so important. Do I want them to feel like mad? I could conquer the world or I could make it another day. Or I have something to live for. Or I do have possibility. How do you want them to leave? And that's one of the keys of being able to attract and build rapport by the way you give off the energy.

• 17:15Jonathan Fields?

  I want to drop into both the power zones and some other sort of tools that you offer. But before we get there, I'm also curious about something. We just talked a bit about how our own presuppositions or biases can show up in our nonverbal communication and how we, you know, eventually it's going to show up in our language also, but even the way that we physically show up in an interaction.

• 17:39Jonathan Fields?

  What about our emotional states? You know, because we can come into an interaction or a room energized, calm, at peace, freaked out, stressed, anxious, depressed. Do these also show up in a similar way in our physicality when we're interacting with somebody in a way that affects the way that we're perceived? Or that we might want to have an impact on others?

• 18:05Speaker 03

  Absolutely. So there is a book by a friend of mine, Scott McCain, All Businesses Show Business. So the way you show up, you only get that four to seven seconds, maybe eight, I'll give you a bonus one, to make that good first impression. Nobody talks to you about what happens the remaining 20 minutes because they're still assessing you to see if you're the real deal. Whatever is on the mind shows up in the matter. So if you're distracted, let me ask you this question here for those that are listening. How would you feel? And I'm not putting it in the universe, but just say you or someone you love has

• 18:48Speaker 03

  to have emergency surgery and the surgeon comes in or they're talking to you. Let's, it doesn't have to be emergency. Let's just say the doctor comes in who's going to operate.

• 19:00Speaker 03

  And he introduces himself, "Hey, I'm Dr. Clements," and the nurse is there. "And I'm gonna tell you, here's what we're gonna do. We're going to, uh, okay, hold on. Do we start with anesthesia first, or do I do this? It doesn't matter how many degrees are on the wall. Or if he says to you, "You know what? Give me a minute. I've got a lot going on. My wife left me. The dog bit me. And I found out the cat is having an affair." With all that on their mind, do you want them operated on you? Even though they've got all the awards, the degrees on the wall? So the mind can only think of one given thought at any given time. And the thing that you think of the longest becomes the strongest.

• 19:41Speaker 03

  So if you are going in with baggage, if you are going in with garbage, it'll begin to leak. It'll begin to smell. And in nonverbal, we call it leakage, where those other emotions, "Are you okay? Are you okay? I mean, are you okay, Jonathan? You're, you look like a little uncomfortable." People begin to notice that because brains speak to other brains. The signals are there, and it's displayed in your nonverbal. So the moment that you think about it, in that amygdala, or the neocortex, or the midbrain, or the prefrontal cortex, it's going to show up in your body.

• 20:24Jonathan Fields?

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Bombas. So there's this moment every fall here in Boulder. The morning air is crisp. The light goes golden against the mountains. And something in you just wants to slow down, like soft layers, and long walks, and a warm mug, and a good book. You know, the cozy feeling has just arrived. And cozy really does start at your feet. Bombas just launched new suede moccasins, cushy soles, a shearling lining, and water-resistant suede. So a little frost on the grass isn't a problem. Our whole family's sock drawers are basically shrines to Bombas, have been for years. Marina wool for chilly mornings, sports socks for when we get out and move, and compression socks for long travel days, which I'm actually about to...

• 21:09Jonathan Fields?

  Opening that drawer, they're just a right pair for whatever the day holds. But the other thing that has kept me a Bombas fan for all of these years. For every item you buy, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated. Over 200 million donations and counting. So head over to Bombas.com/goodlife and use the code GOODLIFE for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash good life, code GOODLIFE at checkout. Good Life Project is sponsored by Sequencing. So in midlife, we start noticing some of the things our parents carried and how they're showing up in their health and their lives and wondering what we're carrying too. Sequencing.com can help.

• 21:51Jonathan Fields?

  According to sequencing, most popular DNA tests read about a tenth of 1% of your DNA. Sequencing.com reads all 3.2 billion positions and screens for genetic variants linked to over 15,000 diseases, conditions, and traits. That can mean catching inherited risks early and understanding how certain medications may affect you. So you can talk it through with your doctor. Just swab your cheek, mail it back, and their CLIA certified, CAP accredited US lab handles the rest. Clinical grade, not novelty grade, your DNA doesn't change, but what we know about it does. So they keep reanalyzing your genome against new research for as long as you remember. And they never sell or share your data ever.

• 22:33Jonathan Fields?

  Right now, sequencing.com is offering our listeners up to 10% off your full genome test plus free shipping. Go to sequencing.com and use the promo code GOODLIFE for 10% off. That's sequencing.com promo code GOODLIFE. That's S-E-Q-U-E-N-C-I-N-G.com promo code GOODLIFE. Good Life Project is supported by Kachava. So I used to think being salty was reserved for bad moods and pretzels. But lately I have come to realize that a little salty edge actually makes life and especially dessert way more interesting. Any pastry chef will tell you that a pinch of salt isn't there to ruin the party. It's there to make the sweet parts just really shine, which is exactly what Kachava pulled off with their new salted caramel.

• 23:19Jonathan Fields?

  Laughed, it's that good, rich caramel, a little salty edge and none of the sugary drawbacks. And it's still the Kachava that I count on. Two scoops for complete nutrition with plant-based protein, fiber, greens, and so much more. No artificial flavors, colors, or sweeteners, no fillers, no nonsense. Which if you're feeling a little salty yourself is kind of the point. Embrace your salty side. Go to kachava.com and use the code GOODLIFE for 15% off your order. That's kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code GOODLIFE. And that probably we think we're hiding, but what you're suggesting is we're not that like if it's,

• 24:01Jonathan Fields?

  it's probably showing up in a hundred different ways in these tiny little physical tells in our body that other people are picking up. And whether we ever said a word about what was going on, whether we said, you know, like we're stressed, we're anxious, whatever it is, you're saying, you're suggesting that we actually are speaking that, but we think that we're not. And then it creates this silent tension because people are picking up on that.

• 24:25Jonathan Fields?

  And then, and that's going to create friction.

• 24:28Speaker 03

  Absolutely, absolutely. And it makes them uneasy. And so for those that are in sales, when that comes across the table, let's say it's the end of the month and you've got to be quota.

• 24:41Jonathan Fields?

  Right. So you're freaked out because you're like, I gotta push, push, push, push, push. I have a number to hit. Yeah.

• 24:46Speaker 03

  Yes. They feel that. And then all of a sudden, emotions are contagious. And now your client, your customer is acting the way you're acting. They become a mirror of you. So you have to, and that's part of emotional intelligence is be self-aware of your own emotions so that you can manage them.

• 25:10Jonathan Fields?

  So this all makes a lot of sense to me. You know, in this context also, you talk about us having certain patterns that we tended to fall to as well. And you bring up three, from what I recall, it's frozen, flooding, and flat, which become almost like these default states. And they can really interfere. These again are, these are. They're physical patterns. They show up in our bodies in ways that affect both us and also people that we're interacting with. Walk me through these three different patterns.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  Thank you. So that's in my book, forthcoming book, Hush. And for example, let's talk about the frozen stage where you are just simply totally paralyzed in every situation, where if something happens and you can't react or you lose your train of thought and you're just there frozen and your boss is looking at you. Everyone's looking like, what? Say something, say something. What's the matter? What's the matter with you? Then the other flooding, when all of a sudden, Jonathan, everything, if it's going to happen, it's happening today.

• 26:19Speaker 03

  Everything is happening. And then all of a sudden, the floodgates of emotions are starting to pour out. And it's very challenging. It happens to men, not as often as it happens to women. Because of all the things that they're multitasking and trying to do and trying, and they're emotionally attached to projects and things. So then, when you begin to flood, is that it could come across, as it could come across now, is if you're having an emotional meltdown. So for example, let's say you're doing your big, the pitch of your life. You're doing a proposal, you're doing the pitch, and the stakeholders are in front of you. And you've worked on this for months.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  And then all of a sudden, someone says, you know, we tried this before, but we actually lost money in the third quarter with that. It didn't work. If you are emotionally attached to that, it's like the umbilical cord, then you're going to take that feedback as a personal attack. And then all of a sudden, emotions will start flooding from the eyes darting back and forth, from the exhaling, the flavor, the movement of the hands just going, everything. It's like high-wired. And then flat is almost like you flatlined. It's like, what does it matter?

• 27:52Speaker 03

  You become more numb. So it's so important to realize where you are emotionally, why you're feeling that way, what would be the outcome if it's displayed? So for example, how would this impact my conversation with you? My mother, my coworker, my children, my team, my boss, my biggest client? The late actor Yul Brynner was asked, you know, how is it over a thousand performances? Every one, you give a hundred percent. The same thing over and over and over again,

• 28:35Speaker 03

  because someone in that audience, he said, it will be their first time experiencing me, the production. So I can't afford to be off. Yes, we are human, absolutely. But the discipline part of when you're frozen, when you are flooding and when you are flat. The discipline part is knowing how to pivot, pivot and pivot quickly.

• 29:04Jonathan Fields?

  How do we navigate when this happens? Because whether it's on a big move or on a big stage or in a meeting or whether you're just, you're having a conversation with your kid where you really want it to land, you know? How do we deal with it when one of these three patterns shows up?

• 29:21Speaker 03

  Think about this. If you are talking to your child, let's first of all, look at the level of where you're talking. Are you talking standing up as the authority? Are you talking sitting down, meeting them where they're at? That getting that connection? Are you opening up with a story that of everything about what they did wrong? Or are you opening it up? Begin to open up about what it is that you appreciate about Billy? What you appreciate about little Linda? And what you mean to them, because I've got to open the mind. I got to open the body.

• 30:04Speaker 03

  Because if the child is in the amygdala, they're already fearful. They're not, you know, they're in the protective mode. I've got to melt that ice. And then challenge them on the action that they did. And hear their feedback and get their thoughts. And by the way, be careful of using your 43 facial muscles to make those expressions that come across as judgment. Because the moment they see the judgment in your eyes, they'll go into shame, guilt. And therefore they'll close down.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  So think about how do you want the meeting, the interaction to end from a little child to little child, to spouse, a partner, coworker, a team member. As Covey would say, begin with the end in mind.

• 31:07Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, so this is a repeated theme in our conversation. It's like really, even before you're in there, like, what do you want out of this? Like, how do you want this to end? And that's going to really influence how you step into it, both physically and also what language might come out of your mouth. Let's talk about, a bit more about specific tools. And actually, maybe a good setup for that. You referenced earlier in our conversation, these, I think you call them power zones.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's talk about that. So when we talk about the power zones, let's, one of a few for those that are listening, if you just touch that dimple, right where the throat area is, it's called the supersternal notch. That's the medical scientific term for it. Lots of times, women have a tendency when they feel threatened.

• 32:00Speaker 03

  It's a cure and Princess Di did it a lot later in her latter years of her marriage. They have a tendency to stroke the supersternal notch and you're just stroking it. So for example, if I'm working a case and I've sent out to Mrs. Johnson's home and I say, "Miss Johnson, they sent me out to talk with you and just for you to ask a few questions regarding the whereabouts of your son and your daughter on February the 14th. If she's protecting her son and she does not want to reveal the information, even though she may say something like this, "I don't know, I have not seen my son in months."

• 32:41Speaker 03

  If she starts stroking the supersternal notch, that non-verbal gives me the cue. She's doing a self-touch gesture, which is called pacifying gestures, trying to calm herself, to soothe her nerves. To the women out there, how many times do you do that in a meeting? If the meeting is getting a little heated or something's going on or you feel challenged, you have a tendency to do that. Men may get hot around the collar and when the blood vessels begin to enlarge and they'll pull at the neckline. But be aware of that because that's a power zone.

• 33:22Speaker 03

  If you heard a loud noise overhead, you'll automatically protect that area and go, "Ooh." And by the way, for those that are listening, I dipped my head in like a little turtle. "Ooh," okay, you're protecting the throat. So that's a power zone. The other power zone we spoke of earlier is the heart. Think about someone who's had their heart broken. And let's say I introduce a friend to someone because she's been, you know, out of a relationship for a long time and we all think it's time you get out and start dating. So I introduce her to a friend. She's liking the guy, but all of a sudden,

• 34:04Speaker 03

  he started to do things that reminded her of her ex. And guess what she immediately did? She folded her arms. Now in that scenario, Subconsciously, she was protecting her heart. Her heart, that's a power zone. So when you welcome someone, you don't welcome it into your home with your arms folded. The arms are widespread, palms exposed, exposed, and the heart is exposed. Your power zone is so critical. The heart, the throat, the other power zone is the belly button.

• 34:46Speaker 03

  The navel is your first connection to another human being through the umbilical cord. Think about when you're talking to someone face to face, heart to heart, belly button to belly button. And let's say you're in a, in a group of people, you're networking and you're in that little circle. You could always tell when someone is ready to leave because they cut the cord and they'll begin to turn away. So think about when you're having that conversation and when you're done with it. Some of you may be guilty, like, I don't want to hear it anymore. You will subconsciously begin to turn away. Your feet are pointed towards the door. And by the way, feet don't lie.

• 35:31Speaker 03

  They're pointed in the direction we want to go. You know, so you automatically want to get out of that, even though your face may be face forward. Your heart kind of at an angle now, but that belly button begins to turn and you're cutting the connection. Be aware of that because you don't have to say a word. If someone says something to you, you don't want to hear it. You begin to turn your body, that's another form of dismissal. So the power zones, the throat area, the supercernal notch, where that little dip is. The heart, the belly button, and there's another area. And that could be for another show. It's the reproductive area and that could be for another saucy show.

• 36:16Jonathan Fields?

  So, so we've got the, we've got these four power zones then.

• 36:21Jonathan Fields?

  And you use the word and you're like, you should be aware of sort of like how you're positioning them in an interaction, which brings up a bigger question about, about this. The things that we're talking about, are most of us actually even aware that we're doing any of these things? Or is this just, it, it happens kind of like automatically, subconsciously?

• 36:43Speaker 03

  It's, it happens, it's a habit, it's ingrained into you. So when you wake up in the morning, you don't have to think, how do I get up out of bed? How do I brush my teeth? It's automatic and those habits are automatic. It becomes a part of your fabric and who you are. The key for you is to ask yourself and check the temperature. How is this having an effect on the people that are around me? I just noticed that every time I go and try to join a group, then they're ready to leave all of a sudden. Oh, I gotta go. I just noticed that when I, uh, you know, contribute to conversations,

• 37:24Speaker 03

  people ignore me. You have to be aware of what you're giving off so that you get corrected. And a good way to do it is ask trusted friends. It goes like this, look, I noticed, look, every time you guys get together for lunch and when I come to join you, it seems like everybody wants to leave. Why is that? Well, Linda, you're negative Nellie or you're this or every time you come in, you're always pointing out or you're looking up somebody up and down as if you are checking them over, trying to prove them or not, and your whole being is condescending. No, I'm not. I didn't. So you don't realize it's the reason why it's so hard

• 38:09Speaker 03

  for us to see the picture if we're stuck in the frame. And sometimes it takes someone else to point out those things that you take for granted. Had a friend that always, that when they would talk, they would go. And I mean, we didn't know what that was. And it was a habit that it come to find out, what are you doing? We had to ask, what are you doing? What do you mean? What am I, whatever? The noise that you're making? They grew up with their grandpa doing that. And they picked it up for whatever reason. But they weren't aware of it. But it was annoying to other people until someone said, look, what are you doing? What is this?

• 38:49Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, so often it makes sense. We are not, especially if it's been a part of us for

• 38:53Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 38:54Jonathan Fields?

  decades, we just, we don't know. These are the tells in certain situations. I remember not too long ago, being at a small gathering and I'm an introverted person. I'm a quieter person. I move into social situations cautiously. And I found myself having a conversation with somebody new. And I noticed very quickly that he positioned himself at an angle to me. And it was uncomfortable for me. He wasn't looking around or sort of scanning the room for an exit or another person to talk to.

• 39:26Speaker 03

  But his body was turned at a

• 39:27Jonathan Fields?

  But his body was like, just very slightly turned away from me. And he was kind of gazing past me. So I was like, I'm going to run an experiment here. So I kind of subtly shifted over back into his gaze. So I was facing him navel to navel. Five, within five seconds, he slightly rotates again. Literally over the course of 15 minutes, we did a full 360 together. And I was, I'm saying to myself, and he wasn't disengaged. Like we were having a conversation. He wasn't looking, he didn't seem to be obviously looking for an exit or looking over his shoulder or seeking somebody else. And I was just so fascinated. And I was like, what's going on here?

• 40:10Jonathan Fields?

  Like, is this somebody who's just actually very socially uncomfortable? And, and maybe is neurodivergent in a way where he's very just uncomfortable. Being face to face with somebody or looking them in the eye, is there some other social thing, or am I, am I in some way making him uncomfortable? And I was never able to actually piece it together, but I wasn't offended, but I was curious.

• 40:32Speaker 03

  Well, let me ask you this, when you being an introvert, a self-proclaimed introvert, and you know that it is extroverts, when they invade the proximics, the personal space of an introvert, you know, without permission or without the right, it could make them uncomfortable. So just with the moment that you spent with him, if you were to guess or assess, would you say that that individual, by the way, they were turning and moving, if they were an introvert?

• 41:03Jonathan Fields?

  I, I would imagine so. And because that tends to be my orientation, I tend to be really sensitive to that too, and give people their space. So I wasn't sort of like, like, closing in on his personal space. I tend to be pretty good with that, but maybe it was just that, and then maybe he was just very, very socially uncomfortable, in a way where he just kind of kept not wanting to connect too much because it just didn't feel good to him, which I, which I honor. So like I said, it was more, it became more of a curiosity to me. I was like, oh, this is just kind of fascinating. I'm curious about what's going on.

• 41:39Speaker 03

  But where's what's interesting, how did it make you feel initially?

• 41:42Jonathan Fields?

  Oh, not comfortable, like, not like, yeah, it made me feel like I was being sort of like, pushed away or dismissed, until I gave it a beat and said, maybe that's not actually what's really happening here. But, but my, my sense is, a lot of people wouldn't have given it that beat. They would have just been like, oh, this person's turning their body away from me. You know, they're not interested in me.

• 42:05Speaker 03

  And if they, here's another thing, if they start turning the body away, and the shoulders begin to roll in, as if they're about to go into the fetal position, it could also be issues of feeling insecure. See, for every-

• 42:22Speaker 03

  Emotion, there's emotion and there's a story.

• 42:26Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 42:27Speaker 03

  For every emotion, there's an emotion that goes with it, a body language movement. And there's a story attached to it. So the story, we may perceive it as one way, but the body was telling us by turning away that I am not ready to be fully connected. Don't take it personal. I am not ready for anyone to be in my space. And yes, we have to honor that. Now, here's the thing, you probably didn't have the opportunity to find out is that the norm, his norm are the exception.

• 43:03Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, no, you're right.

• 43:03Speaker 03

  If I see you at the life of the party, the next 20 minutes, wow, could have been me.

• 43:07Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 43:09Speaker 03

  Right.

• 43:09Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And so interesting too, right? Because let's say you're that, that person. And maybe this is something that has actually been, become a part of you through past trauma. Right? You also, you, there, there's a safety. You don't feel safe in certain social situations, regardless of who the other people are. You're just, you're still living with a certain amount of trauma in your system. And maybe that's affecting you. So you show up at a party every time somebody approaches you to just get to know you or say hi. Because you have this ingrained trauma response that shows up in, in a physical turning away. You turn away, the other person feels rejected. They walk away and that becomes this repeated pattern.

• 43:53Jonathan Fields?

  And you're probably wondering, why do people keep rejecting me? Having no idea this has been going on. I mean, do you see things like that happen in your work?

• 44:00Speaker 03

  It happens a lot. And then again, remember what you said. So we said for every emotion, there's emotion. And like you said, what said, and I mentioned, there's a story. There's a story attached to it. So Oprah Winfrey and Whoopi Goldberg shared a story when the musical, The Color Purple came out. And for some reason, prior to that, they did not speak to each other. They were upset with each other. When they got together to do this big interview for the, for the musical, The Color Purple, and to do the interview, they didn't know why they were angry with each other.

• 44:43Speaker 03

  They were just angry. They didn't even know the story. So what I'm saying is, what happens if we create a narrative, but we don't know the story? And that's ask, ask acronym, ask, seek and knock. And knock is asking the permission to open the door to continue to have additional dialogue and conversation. Ask, you know, ask questions that allow you to peel the onion. Seek to understand and then knock on the door to be able to come in, to step into their heart, their mind and their space.

• 45:25Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I would imagine also, you know, if you ask and, and the response is either non-verbally or verbally, I'm not there, then we have to respect that too.

• 45:40Speaker 03

  We have to honor that.

• 45:41Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  We have to, and we honor that. What grace, we bless and release it.

• 45:48Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 45:49Speaker 03

  We do not take remnants and apply it to us. Is it me? No. We meet people where they're at. We're human.

• 45:59Jonathan Fields?

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Tin Can. So if you grew up in the seventies or eighties, you probably still remember your best friend's phone number and stretching the kitchen phone cord around the corner for privacy. Our executive producer, Lindsay, wanted that same freedom for her kids, eight and 10. So in January, she got them a Tin Can. Now friends call the house to chat, make plans and check in without borrowing her phone. They even keep a handwritten phone book next to it. I kind of love that. Tin Can is the new school way for kids to talk with their friends. It's a secure landline that lets them call all their favorite people, but with parental controls to keep them protected. No screens, no algorithms,

• 46:43Jonathan Fields?

  no texting, just a phone, being a phone. Kids can only call or be called by people on your approved list. Calls to other Tin Cans and 911 are always free. And there's even an answering machine for messages that are, I'm told gloriously ridiculous. Go to tincan.com/goodlife to get $10 off your first order, exclusive for our listeners. That's tincan.com/goodlife for $10 off. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show. Tincan.com/goodlife. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Ah, fall, that cozy season where we swap the swimwear for sweaters and sunnies for scars. But before the Halloween decorations are put away or Thanksgiving table has been set,

• 47:28Jonathan Fields?

  there's already holly jolly music playing in the grocery store, reminding you that the year is coming to a close. Time to kick end of year into high gear. When you use Apple Card with Apple Pay, you earn 2% daily cash back on all purchases, including food, decorations, gifts, and more. Get a head start on your end of year purchases. Apply for your Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today and start using it right away with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com/bank. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC.

• 48:40Jonathan Fields?

  So somebody's joining us for this conversation, like, this all makes sense. And they're thinking to themselves, you know, okay, so I get the way that I show up physically in an interaction, in a room, in a meeting, is going to make a real difference. And they're asking themselves a question, you know, I've got, I've got this big presentation next week, or, you know, like, an interview that I'm going on next week. How can I show up in this interaction that's coming up in a way where I feel like I step in, I'm received beautifully, I have a certain sense of confidence and command of the room? What would you, what should we be thinking about in that scenario?

• 49:20Speaker 03

  So I'm gonna give you the three Cs of reading nonverbal communication. And I may give you a bonus C, but the three Cs. First of all, know your baseline, your norm. How do you feel when you're feeling great? What is that, what does that look like? What does that feel like? What does that sound like when you are feeling like on top of the world? What does it look like and sound like when you're feeling that you're at the pit of you know what? What does that look like? So that you could be able to identify it. Once you're able to identify it, then you name it. Okay, you call it whatever name you want so that you can tame it.

• 50:01Speaker 03

  Once you name it and tame it, you could reframe it and you could do it in an instance. So with reading body language, you want to know a person's baseline. And especially you need to know yours. The first C is reading nonverbal say clusters. So for example, if you are in the interview and you're feeling just a little, little frustrated at the moment, a couple of things are gonna happen that if I was the interviewer that validates that for me. You may sit back and sigh in exasperation. Yeah, well, my last job. Okay, that's the second signal. So clusters are looking for more than one movement. Then all of a sudden, I ask you another question that you didn't like.

• 50:47Speaker 03

  A question that you didn't like, and what you did was turn away. You, you crossed your leg and you turned at that angle. Wow. So this validates for me, okay, this person is not really into it. You know, they may not be the candidate I want. But it's key to watch for the clusters in the interview as well. Because if they're leaning in and hanging on every word, and then all of a sudden, they are taken aback, take the pen and just lay it down on the table, push the paper, the, the paper forward, the interview may be over. Smack their hand on the table, slap their hand on the table, the interview may be over. So watching for those clusters more than one movement. The second C, very important.

• 51:34Speaker 03

  Congruency. It is critical when you go in an interview that your words, your tone, and your nonverbal. So words, tonality, and nonverbal, the body language. Here's a soundbite for you. If all three don't agree, that there is a disconnect in the message between you and me. I can't fold my arms and says, you know, I really love you. Let's get therapy. No, the arms folded, the tone was not right. So if all three, the words, the tone, and the nonverbal don't agree, there's a disconnect in the message. And the third C is context.

• 52:19Speaker 03

  And context is this. Let's say you're going to that interview,

• 52:24Speaker 03

  and the temperature that day is 90 degrees, 90 degrees Fahrenheit. I mean, it's hot, humid, all get out. And you walk into the interview in full winter gear. I don't know, your parka, your down coat, a fur coat, being real fur, faux fur, whatever, it's winter gear. The interviewer can't even think straight. They're going, what's up with this person? Because it's out of context. If your behavior, all of a sudden, because someone asks you a question, and all of a sudden, you lose it. It's out of context. So be aware of those three Cs.

• 53:07Speaker 03

  And the bonus C is culture. What in Rome do as the Romans do? You want to fit in. You really don't want to stand out. You could go to jail by doing wrong movements and gestures and phrases, if you will, even the wrong body language. The sign that we make in the United States for AOK. This sign, for those that are looking at me, and those that are listening, you know, the AOK sign is quite obscene in different parts of the world. So having that awareness is so critical.

• 53:41Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, that makes so much sense. As you're describing this, I'm kind of nodding along on the one hand. But then there's another voice that's popping up in me. And I'm guessing you've heard this before, which is, is there a line that we cross? When we think about, okay, so now I, I know all these different things to look for. I have a series of techniques. I know ways to sort of shape my physicality and to look for the physicality of others to try and kind of like show up or manipulate the way that I'm showing up. And I'm not using manipulate and with a moral judgment there, but just change the way that I'm showing up in a way where I'm checking as many boxes as I possibly can.

• 54:23Jonathan Fields?

  So that we have the positive outcome that we talked about wanting early in that conversation. Is there a risk of crossing a line at some point where I'm, I'm moving from actually, I'm showing up in a way which is no longer, which is in service of the other or the conversation or the outcome more than it's in service of me showing up authentically anymore?

• 54:46Speaker 03

  So are you asking me? The phrase, I think was that was coined by Mary Kay Ash, if I showed up faking it till I make it?

• 54:58Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, like are we, is there, is there a risk of giving up so much of ourselves in the name of, of creating a particular dynamic or outcome? That we kind of feel like we're, we're losing ourselves in the mix. And even though we may get the outcome that we thought we wanted, we feel like we're kind of hollowing ourselves out inside.

• 55:18Speaker 03

  Let's talk about this. There is a, there is a quote that was coined by the late Mary Kay Ash, founder of Mary Kay, and the quote was fake it till you make it. So Lynda Clemens has a quote, I have a quote for you. The fake will fade because the true essence of who you are is going to begin to surface. So I want to give you an acronym. Think of tap dancing, tapping on the table. T as in Tom, A as in apple, P as in Paul. And we're talking about your best self. Cause you know, just like there are many faces of Eve and many faces of Adam, there, I want you to show up. We're talking about your best self. So I want you to think about this acronym.

• 56:03Speaker 03

  When you are your truthful best self, that's the T, truthful.

• 56:10Speaker 03

  You will show up in your authentic best self. So if you've got the truth, you're authentic, then it shows up in the proof. And the proof is your nonverbal. See, when you come across desperate, if you will, by trying to pour everything, get somebody to like me, trying to do this, then losing breath as you're looking at them, taking their temperature, are they liking me, then you're going up for air again. That makes people uneasy, if you will, because there are other narratives that are going on and there are other stories that are taking place as to why you're showing up that way. People who are confident and in control know who they are.

• 56:55Speaker 03

  They know the value that they bring and they stand on that. They're sure about that. When they share their expertise, they share it in stories, examples of the outcome. And they know if you are just sharing information to get validation. And by the way, facial validation, what if you have an interviewer? That does not give you that validation. When I say validation, when someone says something, your eyebrows go, oh, okay. And the sounds and the, the, the mouth and the twitching of the lip and the eyes just to let someone know that you're with them, if you will. Some people may not be that way. They may be very stoic.

• 57:38Speaker 03

  They may be the poker face, as they call it. And then you may be a kinesthetic communicator, dominated kinesthetic. And you're looking for that emotional connection and you could take it personal. If you're not getting it, if the individual perhaps is analytical. Now you're falling apart. He or she doesn't like me. So tap, tap, tap. When you are your truthful, positive self, eh? Your authentic, positive self, P, will show up in the proof and that's in your body.

• 58:16Jonathan Fields?

  And those are pretty good words for living, I think, in general, too. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

• 58:31Speaker 03

  Oh. What comes up for me?

• 58:38Speaker 03

  I think of Irma Boback, if you will, the late Irma Boback, as she says that when I, and I'm paraphrasing again, climatizing, that when I leave this earth and stand before my Maker, I want to stand empty, empty, because I used everything that I've got. I left everything on earth so that way I can continue to live on. Now, that's the Lydick, Lydick Clements part of it. So when I hear that, I just want to be able to touch people in a way that their lives are better, better, so that they can spread that joy and live that good life as well.

• 59:23Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, thank you.

• 59:26Jonathan Fields?

  Hey, before you leave, be sure to tune in next week for our conversation with Julia Minson about how to disagree better so you can have less drama and more impact in your life, your work, and your community. And be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss any upcoming episodes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still here. Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor, and share it with just one person.

• 1:00:11Jonathan Fields?

  If you want to share it with more, hey, that's awesome. But just one person, even then, invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 1:01:08Speaker 04

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work.

• 1:01:26Speaker 04

  That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.

• 1:01:31Speaker 02

  Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 1:01:37Speaker 04

  That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.